October 28, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode of The Better Leadership Team Show, I sit down with Michael D. Levitt, burnout survivor, therapist, and host of The Breakfast Leadership Show. We dive deep into what workplace culture really means, why it matters more than ever, and how leaders can balance accountability with empathy. Michael shares powerful stories, including how he reduced turnover from 90% to 6% in a healthcare organization, and explains the one question leaders should ask their teams to build trust and lasting change.
Thanks for listening! Connect with us at mike-goldman.com/blog and on Instagram@mikegoldmancoach and on YouTube @Mikegoldmancoach
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (00:02):
Earning trust is a daily exercise.
It's not a well, they trust menow.
And then you just, you know, putit on autopilot.
No, it's, it is an everydayexercise and being a leader and
a CEO is not an easy task, butit's well worth it.
Mike Goldman (00:23):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the
(00:44):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
Mike (00:57):
My guest today, Michael D Levitt, enables thriving
workplaces.
He's a burnout survivor, an AIsolutions consultant, a global
thought leader on HR andwellness, a therapist, a keynote
speaker, an author, an executivecoach, and the host of the
Breakfast Leadership Team show.
(01:19):
No wonder, Michael, you're aburnout survivor.
that's a lot of stuff, but,welcome to the show.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (01:24):
Great to be with you, Mike.
Looking forward to ourconversation today.
Mike (01:28):
Michael, from all of your experience, what do you believe
is the number one most importantcharacteristic of a great
leadership team?
Dr. Andrew Wittma (01:38):
Togetherness.
Now, I don't know if that's aword or not, but I'm gonna move
them together.
I think that, in any initiative.
With an organization, when youmove forward together, you can
accomplish great things.
And I see way too manyorganizations that are anything
but together.
they're siloed, they'reseparate.
(01:58):
it's actually a wonder thatanything gets done.
Mike (02:04):
And I'm sure that will lead us right into the
conversation we're gonna behaving today, which is really
gonna be focused on workplaceculture.
and, you know, culture is one ofthose words that, that's,
overused.
One of the words that, you know,you ask 12 people and they'll
define it 10 different ways, ifnot 12 different ways.
(02:24):
How do you.
Define workplace culture.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (02:30):
Very similar, you know, with the
togetherness.
But I think it's an environmentwhere you have, and I've been
fortunate to be part oforganizations like this in my
career, where you have a diversegroup.
And I'm not just talking aboutgenders and race, I'm just
talking about skillset and justupbringing and everything else.
When you can collectively bringtogether, some people that have
(02:52):
an absolutely.
Strong passion about what theydo and understand their part.
Of the puzzle to make anorganization successful to
serve, the customer's currentand future needs.
When you have that, that's whenyou can just, quite frankly,
create magic.
it's when you survive pandemicsand economic downturns and
(03:15):
tariffs and anything else thatthe world throws at us.
your organization continues tothrive and grow and serve is
because you've got a strongteam.
That's making all of the thingshappen that need to happen in
the company
Mike (03:31):
Michael, you, we hear so much about.
Culture today and probably hearthat word more often than I
heard it years ago.
does culture matter more nowwith, you know, hybrid and
remote work with ai, witheverything going on in the
world?
Does culture matter more now orhas it always been this
(03:52):
important?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (03:54):
I think it's always been important, but.
On the flip side of that, Ithink that the variety of
generations we have in theworkforce now, which we have a
lot, and even Gen Alpha is gonnabe coming into the workforce
pretty soon if they're notalready there.
it's an interesting dynamic towatch because.
(04:15):
I'm Gen X, and what we findimportant and what we get out of
work and what we put into workmight be different than a Gen Z
or a millennial or even a babyboomer.
there are some variances, and Idon't want to paint it with a
broad stroke because I know manypeople, you know, in different
age groups that have a differentphilosophy around work.
(04:37):
But ultimately, it boils down tothis.
When you go to work, you know,obviously it's there to
compensate you and you exchangeyour time and efforts for
compensation.
But I think that the challengesthat we face in the world has
become more complex.
So, kind of coupling back toyour question, I, I think it's
(04:59):
more important now.
In a way, because the worldtoday is more complex than it
was even a decade ago or 20years ago.
there's so many differentthings, and as you mentioned,
you with ai, remote work, hybridwork, those type of
environments, there's been a lotof changes to the rules of in,
(05:20):
in basically in work and a lotof leaders and employees, both.
I don't want to point fingers ateither one.
But both are trying to figureout how to navigate this world,
and a lot of people are reallystruggling with it.
And if there's not really goodcommunication channels within an
organization, then what happenstime and time again is people
(05:44):
get frustrated.
And that frustration can comeout in a variety of different
ways.
A lot of times it could be badmanagement, a lot of times it
could be.
Absenteeism or disengagement,which we're seeing, you know,
all the studies are indicatingthat, you know, engagement in
the workforce continues to drop,which is concerning, in many
facets.
(06:05):
But that's a long-winded answerto say it's never been more
important than others, but it'salways been important as well.
It's just, but there's a lot ofdynamics going on in the world
right now that's making it, abigger issue than we, we've
probably seen in the past.
Mike (06:18):
Yeah, so, so it's all, what I'm hearing and I agree
with you, is it's always beenimportant.
It's more complex now, way morecomplex now, and, you know, to,
to.
To your point of leaders havingto navigate through that, as
leaders are navigating throughthat, what do you feel like the
(06:39):
biggest blind spot is forleaders that, because I've seen
a lot of leaders that kind ofthink they're building culture,
but they may actually beundermining it.
What's, what do you see is maybethe biggest blind spot leaders
have?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (06:54):
I, I think there's too much of a reliance
of what they know and whatthey've experienced, and not
necessarily, and this could beintentional or it could be
accidental.
a willingness to understand andlearn from others that, are
reporting to them.
yes, we have mentors or weshould anyway, and that can
(07:14):
guide us in everything that wedo.
But I think a lot of it has todo with just, you know,
listening to your team, andtrusting your team.
and I talk to people all thetime and especially around the
arena of should we allow remotework to continue or do we need
to bring'em in every day of theweek?
And I've had managers tell me,well, I don't trust my employees
to do their job when they'reworking remotely.
(07:36):
And I said, well then you needto fire them right now.
And they look at me, it's like Ican't fire'em.
I need them.
they're, they do great work.
I'm like, but you don't trustthem to do great work But they
do great work.
I'm confused.
And so are they, because theirown, you know, their own head,
they're confused about itbecause I think a lot of it is
they miss seeing people.
(07:57):
I think that's a big part of it.
A lot of people say it'smicromanagement and maybe
there's an element of that, butI think a lot of it's just they
miss the human interaction.
I think that's what we'redesigned to do.
So I think that's one of thereasons why so many have
struggled.
But, the blind spots thatleaders see all the time is, you
know.
Their own limiting beliefs andalso just, you know, their own
experiences and maybe not beingexposed to, you know, different
(08:21):
ideas of things that we can do.
Mike (08:23):
Yeah.
And going back to what you saidabout the idea of remote work,
what I find interesting and I'mwondering what you see here, is
when that, you know, back whenCOVID hit and remote work was a
new thing, there were.
Leaders that were reallyconfused as to how to deal with
it.
How do I know my people areproductive if I can't see them?
(08:47):
Which amazed me because I said,wait a minute, like, does
productivity mean they're.
Working long hours, they'reworking hard.
Do you have to see them or isproductivity about measurable
results?
And I find you know what it is,what it's challenged the better
leaders to do is to get betterat figuring out what the
(09:09):
measurable results are that theywant to see.
And so it's not like, do I trustpeople to be working harder or
not?
It's.
are they getting the resultsthat we want?
And I think pre remote work,people weren't as focused on
defining what those measurableresults were, and maybe remote
and hybrid is challenging thebetter leaders to get better at
(09:32):
figuring that stuff out.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (09:35):
Yeah, I agree with you.
I think it's, and it was a bigchallenge for a lot of managers
that used to manage by beingseen and constantly checking in
on things.
There wasn't the systems inplace for them to.
Say, okay, how do we actuallymeasure what we do?
You know, what are the outcomes?
You know, one of the things youknow, that I completely borrowed
(09:57):
from a boss that I had 25 yearsago was, and he, I remember this
and I, I shared this on my showin other shows in the past as I
remember my first day workingthere at 3:32PM I remember the
time specifically, he came to mycubicle and said, okay, I'm just
gonna lay down the ground rules.
So what.
I'd like to work here.
I'm like, okay, here we go.
(10:17):
And he said, I don't care whenyou get here.
I don't care when you leave.
Just make sure you keep meupdated on what you need.
If you have any issues, you knowhow to reach me.
I deliver outcomes.
I tell you when it's due.
I hopefully you have all thetools you need to be able to do
it.
Have fun while you work here.
And I sat back in my chairgoing, you know, I think I'm
(10:39):
gonna be here a while.
And I was there for almost fouryears and this was during
the.com era when everybody wasbouncing around'cause they were
getting big salary raises andstock options and everything
else.
But I stayed at thatorganization and they took care
of me quite well.
but it was because they createdthe environment for me to thrive
and.
This is one of those thingswhere I think managers still
(11:00):
have a lot of work and leadersof all levels have a lot of work
to do.
They have to figure out, okay,what do we need to get done?
What's the roadmap that we knowof?
'cause you know, every time youknow, start a project or
anything like that, there'salways gonna be an opportunity
for something new, uncertain,change in scope.
You name it, there's all kindsof things that can throw things
off, but as long as you know.
(11:23):
What are we supposed to produce?
When is it due?
What do we need to have?
Who do we have resource wisethat can get this done?
What's the estimated time thatit's gonna take?
Go to it.
And you have obviously built incheck-in periods so you don't go
off the rails.
But too often managers, becausethey were never properly
(11:44):
trained, how to manage, will bethere every step of the way.
instead of leading back and justgoing, okay, let me manage this
instead of trying to do it.
And I see it time and time againwhere they just get over
involved in it and end upslowing things down.
And I know a lot of managersdon't like hearing that, but
it's like, you're actually thebottleneck.
(12:04):
They don't like hearing that,but it's like you're the
bottleneck because you're kind,you're taking them away for
these 30 minute sessions.
Five times a week.
You don't need to do that andgive'em what they need to do.
Let them do it.
That's why you hired them.
If you don't trust them and theycan't do the job, then of
course, you know, make a change.
But you gotta let'em try.
you're teaching your kid how toride a bike.
(12:26):
If you're on constantly ridingthe bike for them, they're not
gonna learn how to ride thebike.
Mike (12:32):
What you wrote a book called Workplace Culture.
You work with clients on theircultures.
What are, when you work with aclient, give me a sense of how
you, and therefore a leaderlistening to this, might think
about how they can go do this.
How do you like kind of, wheredo you start?
How should a leader be thinkingabout the different components
(12:54):
of culture?
And it's too easy to say, man,we gotta work on our culture, or
morale stinks, or, I don'trecognize this place.
Like how do we take it and turnit into a set of steps?
What.
what are the first things theyought to look at and what are
the components of culture thatleaders ought to be thinking
about and taking action on?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (13:16):
Yeah.
What I do is, and I don't startfrom page one type of thing.
You meet people where they're atand you say, okay, what?
You know, what is.
Your situation, you know, askingfrom their point of view of what
they would like to improve here,what's going well?
And I start with what's goingwell.
Because a lot of times whenconsultants come in, it's like,
(13:36):
okay, what's broken?
What's not working?
Like, no, what's going wellhere?
Because there might be someclues in what they're doing well
that could be applied to otherareas of.
Improvement that they would liketo see.
So you find out what's goingwell, and then from there you
say, okay, what are some thingsyou're seeing?
what are the results that youwant that you're not currently
(13:58):
getting?
You know, and just kind of getthem to start thinking about
that and get that mindset movingof, okay, these are the things
I'm not seeing.
and sometimes they could bebiased and they say, well, I
wanna see this.
Okay, but you're getting theresults, but you're not getting
them the way that you want them,but you're still getting the
results.
So you're basically doing alittle forensic work trying to
(14:19):
figure out, okay, how do theythink, you know, what is
something that they wanna see?
And this could be an individualleader or the leadership team,
or even the front lines, youknow, asking them, you know,
what do they want out of things.
And from there.
And we start working.
Okay, let's pick one area tofocus on first, because if you
try to change everything atonce, and I learned this in my
(14:39):
IT days, well, if somethingbreaks, you don't know what
broke it.
You know, you change 15 things,well one of those 15 broke
something, but you're not surewhich one it is.
So it's like, let's start small,build some momentum, and then we
can, you know, continue fromthere.
But that's, you know, theexercise that I walk them
through.
And then of course, you know,it's like, okay, what does.
(15:01):
culture look like to you?
What does that look like?
And it might be, again, biased.
You know, they may want theenvironment to be this way where
the employees and the managementteam.
They want something different.
So you gotta, and that's why youtalk with as many people as you
can to kind of get an idea ofhow many organizations you're
dealing with there.
Because in many cases, andyou've seen this of course too,
(15:24):
where you go into anorganization, they say, well, we
do this.
And you ask, you know, like Isaid, 10 people and they give
you 13 different answers of whoyou are.
And you're like, oh, okay, wellI see the problem or one of'em
anyway.
You guys don't know who you areand let's figure that out and
then address it accordingly.
Mike (15:41):
is the definition of culture driven from the top down
or is it driven by whatemployees want?
Is it driven from the bottom up?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (17:13):
for the longest time, I always have
felt, and I still do to acertain extent that, you know,
the culture is dictated by theleader.
when I took over a toxicworkplace and reduced turnover,
dramatically, it was because ofme and my team and what I saw
the team would do and how theycould do it.
but.
In unison.
(17:33):
I did that by, you know, seekingthe guidance from the team to
ask'em what type of environmentthey wanted.
So I wasn't in this boat of,it's going to be this way.
I wanted it to be what feltnatural and.
Welcoming and comfortable to acertain degree, to the team.
You know?
'cause if you give'em everythingthey want, well then you still
(17:56):
may not hit all your goalsbecause, you know, people tend
to lean towards comfort avenueinstead of Challenge Road.
And sometimes Challenge Roadhelps you grow and serve more
people.
So I still think it's the toneand the direction is from the
leader.
But it would behoove the leaderand the managers to get the
(18:16):
input from everybody to makesure that is the direction that
everyone.
You know, and you know, itdoesn't have to be everyone, but
what the team naturallygravitates to.
Because unless you wanna do acomplete turnover the team and
bring in new people that agreewith your vision, and sometimes
you have to do that because you,things are just so entrenched.
(18:37):
It's like, oh, we gotta use aJack Welch term and dehire a
bunch of people.
I prefer not to do that.
I don't like doing that.
I never have, but sometimes it'snecessary.
But I, again, to answer yourquestion, I do think it's the
leader that sets the directionand the tone of what the culture
will be, but they have tounderstand who their team is
(18:58):
because if you set a culture andthe team isn't capable of doing
that, then you know you're gonnarun into a lot of friction, for
quite some time.
Mike (19:07):
Yeah, and I think the opposite of that, if you, if it
is bottoms up where you're like,Hey, what does the team want?
You know, I have, you know,teams that do an exercise around
what their core values are andthey ask everybody in the
organization.
And they kind of boil all thatup and say, here's what's
important to everybody.
That sounds nice.
The problem I've had with thatis if the leader of the company
(19:33):
doesn't model those core values,if they're not a model of the
culture, it becomes all talk.
Right?
if you say, here's our culture,and the leader does something
different'cause it's not whothey are.
then, you know, you've got areally big disconnect.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (19:52):
Most definitely.
You cannot say, this is how wedo things, and then not do those
yourself like.
They say, okay, we want, youknow, in office five days a
week, which a lot oforganizations are doing right
now.
and if you as the leader, aren'tthere five days a week, good
luck.
there's, people are gonna say,oh, I guess it's not for him or
(20:12):
her.
And that's not a good thing.
You have to demonstrate and act.
The act.
And.
If that's difficult for you,then again, it's a growth
opportunity for you to say,okay, this is the culture I
want.
Well, then you have to behaveand act that way and set the
tone because many people mimic,you know, the behaviors of their
(20:33):
leadership.
You know, whether it was, youknow, people coming in late and
all of this stuff and theleaders, you know, the first one
there, all of a sudden you startseeing some people, I gotta show
up a little bit earlier.
and not that they're gonna beatyou to the door, but you know,
maybe they might.
I've seen that where, you know,I tend to be an early riser and
get in early And I found thatsome people that tend to be a
(20:54):
little bit later, all of asudden, they just started coming
in earlier.
I didn't say a thing to them.
I didn't say anything abouttheir attendance, what time they
came in and all that.
I was, you know, borrowing frommy former boss.
I don't care when you get inhere, just as long as you get
your work done, you know, we'regood.
I'm more concerned aboutproductivity than okay.
The hours that you were here,you know, if you're really
(21:16):
efficient and you get everythingthat you're supposed to get done
in five hours instead of eight.
Okay.
You know, I'm not, you know, oneof those people that, oh, you
gotta gimme those extra threehours.
'cause we all know whatproductivity does.
You know, if you're gettingthree hours of productivity
outta somebody in an eight hourday, you're doing pretty good
just because of all kinds ofdifferent factors involved in
(21:37):
that.
But it's, again, you have to, asa leader, you have to
demonstrate the behavior thatyou want.
Because if you don't, well thenyou know they're gonna mimic
you.
And they're gonna say, well,he's just all talk.
Or she's all talk.
And why?
Why would I listen to them?
And all of a sudden the trustfactor starts to erode or be
completely gone.
(21:58):
And then you have a really bigchallenge on your hands.
Mike (21:59):
How do you know when you talk about.
When we talk about productivityor results, that's very
quantitative.
We could measure that.
When we talk about culture, andI'll use the word you used at
the top of the show,togetherness is a way to think
about it.
When we talk about culture, thatfeels a lot more intangible,
that feels a lot morequalitative and not
(22:22):
quantitative.
How do you, or can you, in youropinion, measure.
Culture in a way that showswhether you've got an empowering
culture or a disempowering one.
If you are working on someculture change activities, is
that culture, are thoseactivities working or not?
(22:43):
Is there a way to measureculture?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (22:47):
There is, depending on what you again,
define as culture, if.
You want a culture whereeverybody is being, you know,
productive.
You can measure the productivitynumbers, you can measure
satisfaction scores.
If you survey your clients onthings, you can also survey,
okay, what's attendance lookinglike?
Again, not being, you know,someone that's.
(23:09):
Overly managing being say, okay,what time do they come in?
What time do they leave?
All that kinda stuff.
You can also just measure it inhallway conversations, or even
if it's in remote teams, typesof situations.
You know, how are peopleinteracting with each other?
Before the quote unquote meetingofficially starts.
So if, you know, if people are,you know, chatting, you know, in
(23:31):
a group setting or somethinglike that, or, you know, they're
just, you know, making light ofsituations that are going on
right now and just trying to behappy and jovial, or, again,
there's a lot of intrinsicfactors you can look at.
And that's, again, this goesdown to, and this is not a
micromanagement thing, but it'salso the, you know, the check-in
(23:51):
with your team.
And I remember during thepandemic, I was running a
non-profit at the time, at thebeginning of it anyway.
And I remember when the firsttime we could collectively come
together in person.
We were, you know, obviouslyseparated in a big room in a
boardroom that was big enoughwhere we could keep distance and
everybody was masked up and allof that.
(24:11):
And normally for those meetingsprior to the pandemic starting,
everyone would give a debrief ofwhat's going on and, You know,
basically, you know, they said,okay, let you know.
Let's go and start the meeting.
And, you know, the first personstarts said, well, here's the
update on this.
And I literally stood up and Ijust did a timeout.
I said, okay, this meeting,we're not gonna talk about
(24:32):
anything about work.
We're gonna talk about.
How are you doing?
What's working for you?
What challenges are you facing?
Anything you've learned to helpyou navigate what's going on
right now in the world as far asgetting access to things to
share with everybody else.
So if they're looking for helpor guidance or where can we find
toilet paper or you know, wherecan we get this or.
(24:56):
Is there any places that you'rehanging out and meeting with
people?
And so we did that and at theend of the meeting, I asked,
okay, is anything going on?
And there was like two or threethings that they need to bring
up.
Normally, you know, usingParkinson's law, let's fill up
that meeting hour, where this,there was like a couple things
that quite frankly could havebeen an email when it came to
(25:17):
the work related issues.
But it was a, I right now, Ijust care about.
You as a human being, which Ialways do, but specifically now
because this is prettycatastrophic of what we're going
through.
And that created an environmentwhere people just could relax a
little bit and they knew that,hey, you, if you need to do
(25:37):
something to take care ofsomething, do it.
Family comes first.
we'll sort everything out later.
And that was the environmentthat I wanted to have and
thankfully did have there andinherited a lot of it there
because it was already kind ofthere from the previous, person
who was the founder of theorganization that, unfortunately
passed away.
(25:57):
So I came in replacing somebodythat had been there forever.
So that was obviously a, aninteresting dynamic as well.
And there was obviously a lot ofconcern about.
Me coming in with my backgroundgoing in and changing everything
up and making it a business andall that, and it's like, no, I
wanted to meet people where theywere.
Mike (26:16):
How do you balance it?
So, so you, that's a goodexample of being a leader that
really cares not just about thebusiness, but caring about your
people.
And, you know, I have seen overmy 35 plus years coaching
consulting is there are someleaders that really do care
(26:36):
about their people, but they'renot necessarily, they don't have
that same.
talent may be the wrong word,but they don't have that same
focus on holding peopleaccountable and having the
difficult conversation.
I've seen other leaders that arepretty good at holding people
accountable and having thedifficult conversation, but they
(26:58):
don't show a lot of caringtowards folks, how do you
balance.
Those two.
if you know, you, if you're aCEO, you wanna create a culture
that genuinely cares for people.
How do you balance that with,the discipline and
accountability around gettingresults?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (27:19):
Yeah, it's, yeah.
Sympathy is a big thing.
And I, and a lot, I know somepeople, you know, aren't very
sympathetic or empathetic.
I have a colleague that I'veknown for almost a decade, and
she actually went and sought outprofessional empathy training
because she did not have it.
and she recognized that and shewanted to have it.
(27:40):
So, that was, I commend her fordoing that, but, and I, it
brings me up to an example.
I remember in running ahealthcare clinic, I had a.
a nurse that was absolutelyamazing.
just stellar.
I didn't want to call her bunnyrabbit'cause that's not a, you
know, but when she walked, shebounced.
She was that happy.
(28:01):
and then she had a personalsituation in her life that took
a toll on her and she was nolonger that happy go-lucky bunny
rabbit.
She was pretty down, makingmistakes, a lot of absenteeism.
I am pretty sure there may havebeen some, addiction issues that
(28:21):
were arising up.
So it was front from, you know,your a number one all star
employee to someone that isdefinitely having some
challenges.
So, you know, had thosedifficult conversations and
said, okay, you know, share whatyou can,'cause I don't wanna get
too personal, but.
it's impacting the work here anddo you need to take some time
(28:44):
away?
And so, you know, she took acouple weeks off, came back,
wasn't bouncy again, but was alittle bit better.
And then it reverted back tobeing, you know, problematic.
Absent and all that and what washappening, the rest of the team
are going, well, if she couldtake time off, so am I.
And all of a sudden you're like,oh, great, now we have a
problem.
we have, this is contagious.
(29:05):
Alright, we have a contagionhere.
What are we gonna do about this?
So, brought her in again andsaid, look, you know, we're, we
can't have this, I know you'regoing through some difficult
times.
Do we need to adjust yourschedule, cut your schedule back
a little bit so you can addresswhatever you need to do
personally, but need you here.
And when you're here, I need youalso here.
And again, there was a littlebit of a rebound, but then it
(29:29):
went back again.
I'm like, okay, so, you know,basically you brought her in and
she said, you know what, I thinkI need to step away.
I think I'm gonna quit because,you know, this is not good.
And I said, well, for you to getunemployment insurance and
continued benefits and thingslike that, why don't I, let you
go so you know, and make sureyour benefits continue for a
(29:51):
period of time.
Give you a little bit of aseverance and send you on your
way and hope, please get yourhelp.
And I saw her a year later andshe had cleaned up, rebounded
life was good again, was in agood role.
I gave her a reference, andcorrected the issue.
Was it difficult to go through?
Yeah, but it needed to happenbecause otherwise I would've had
(30:12):
several people doing that thing.
And again, that it's a one offtype of situation, but we're
dealing with human beings andsometimes we wanna use this
boiler plate, template to say,okay, the next step, this and
this.
But humans are messy.
And sometimes you have to get inthe mud a little bit to kind of
figure out, alright, what do weneed to do here to hopefully
(30:35):
help the employee return tobeing a productive one?
Or, you know, look for anopportunity to, make a change,
as, as pleasant as possible tomake that situation as pleasant
as possible.
'cause it's never pleasant.
Mike (30:49):
We, we talked earlier about the importance of the
leader.
That CEO of the organization,defining and modeling culture.
One of the challenges that I'veseen is the leader of the
organization or even the leaderof a team.
Might be partially blind towhat's really going on in that
(31:13):
team.
There's an assessment that I dowith teams and it assesses all
parts of the team, and part ofit is some questions around
whether they have a powerful,resilient culture.
And what I find is almost alwaysthe CEOs believe the culture is
(31:33):
stronger.
That everybody else believes.
And part of it is that peopletreat the CEO in a certain way
because their name's on theirchecks.
They're gonna treat them acertain way, and the CEO doesn't
necessarily see how that personis treating.
Someone else, I've had a leadersay, oh, this person, real
(31:57):
challenge.
they're pessimistic.
they're not collaborative withteam members.
They're disrespectful to, andthe CEO says, wait a minute, are
we talking about the sameperson?
Like, they never act that waytowards me.
And it's like, yeah,'causeyou're the CEO people treat you
a certain way, so.
For the CEOs or even the teamleaders, listening to this, what
(32:21):
are some signals that theyshould look for to tell them
that their culture is sliding totell them that their culture
isn't as resilient andempowering as they think it is.
what should a leader be lookingat to help them understand if
(32:42):
they've got a problem.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (32:44):
Yeah, I think there's several things.
One, you know, the metrics, youknow, look at performance.
If performance is sliding alittle bit or is not where it
could be, that could be anindicator.
Another thing that, and this isa really a slippery slope, you
gotta be careful with this.
you have to have trustedadvisors.
and what I mean by that is, youknow, have people that are in
the, using a union term, rankand file, that aren't a manager.
(33:09):
You know, maybe they're.
You know, and just, you know, I,you know, not a manager, but
just a, one of the employeesthere.
Create an element of trust wherethey can bring things to you,
not a spy or a mole kind ofthing.
You don't want that because thenthat creates all kinds of
different dynamics that youreally do not want to have, but
you wanna talk with some peopleand kind of get the pulse and
(33:30):
get them, and this is hard.
But to earn their trust wherethey can confidently share with
you some insights.
And like the example you said,you know, there could be an
employee that is constantlykissing the CEO's butt, but you
find out that they are, youknow, an absolute horrible
person to work with, orproblematic.
They don't collaborate.
(33:50):
they take all the credit and donone of the work kind of thing.
And if you're aware.
And again, it's difficult.
This is not a skill thateverybody has.
It's something you can learn,but it's not a skill everybody
has where you can be aware ofsituations and go, okay, yeah,
I'm seeing this, but the feel isa little bit different.
there's something off here andyou just approach it in a way
(34:14):
and you can ask questions thatcan kind of flush some of those
things out, but.
Bottom line is you have tocreate an environment where
people trust you and can be thereal version of you.
Yes.
There's always gonna be thatlooking up to the CEO and you're
the thank you so much for thisjob, but one of the things that
I do is I want you to be realwith me.
I want you to have.
(34:35):
Those, you know, if you need tobring something to me, do it.
You know, I think of AlanMulally when he took over Ford
Motor Company and it wasbleeding money and all the
reports that he was getting was,Hey, we're doing great, which
was just complete bull.
And finally one person showedup, with a report that showed,
okay, we're in the red on thisand this, and Mulally cheered.
(34:57):
And then the next week everybodyshowed up with the true reports
and they realized.
Okay.
Wow.
we're in bad shape here.
And he was thrilled.
He's like, finally, okay, now wecan start doing the work we need
to do.
'cause everybody's afraid CEOwill fire me.
Well, yeah, the CEO EO can fireyou of course.
But you know what a way aroundthat is, you know, go in, do
(35:17):
your job to the best of yourability.
and you know, hopefullyeverything works out for the
best.
But it's, again, for me, from myvantage point, it.
Earning trust is a dailyexercise.
It's not a well, they trust menow.
And then you just, you know, putit on autopilot.
No, it's, it is an everydayexercise and being a leader and
(35:37):
a CEO is not an easy task, butit's well worth it.
Mike (35:42):
Yeah, and I love the Alan Malali Ford story.
And by the way, if you'reinterested in learning more
about that, there's a wonderfulbook called American Icon that
tells that story.
and I know that story well, andthe gentleman you're talking
about is Mark Fields who decidedhe was gonna be honest.
And what I love about thatstory.
Is around that leadership tablewhen Mark Field says We're in
(36:03):
the red.
and everybody else, you know,thought he was gonna get his
head chopped off because that'swhat would've happened in the
previous administration.
Alan said, thank you for yourhonesty.
Let's all figure out how we'regonna help Mark.
And all of a sudden everybodyrealized, oh crap.
we're a team here.
This is not about individuals.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (36:23):
And Mark ended up being CEO of Ford for a
while too.
So it's, it speaks volumes tothat.
You know, I had the fortune tomeet Alan at a conference
several years ago, and, youknow, I told him, I was, you
know, basically, I originallyfrom Detroit, so, had some ties.
I thanked him for, the couragethat it took for him to take
that role.
'cause yes, you, you get offereda role and you take it, all that
(36:46):
stuff.
As a leader, there's an elementof courage, especially if you're
taking an organization that isbleeding, which it definitely
was when he.
Took over the reins and you knowthat Ford was the one of the big
three that did not take,government money.
GM and Chrysler both filedbankruptcy, during the Great
recession.
Ford did not.
And a lot of that had to dowith, the work that Alan did to
(37:08):
prevent that from happening.
Mike (37:09):
Yeah.
Love that story.
Love that story.
If, you know, as we start towrap up, I wanna.
To help, our listeners come upwith one action they can take.
So, so if a leader could makejust one small change to create
a thriving workplace, to createa great workplace culture, if a
(37:30):
leader could make just one smallchange tomorrow to start
improving their culture, whatwould you advise them to do?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (37:40):
When I turned over a healthcare
organization that was averagingalmost 90% turnover annually,
that's nine out of 10 peopleleaving master's level and above
educated clinicians in doctorsleaving.
Every year and after my firstyear there, I reduced it to 6%,
so less than one out of 10.
(38:00):
What did I do?
I went in and I met witheverybody and I asked them this
question, if you were in myseat, what would you do?
I said, nothing's off the table.
You're not gonna get in trouble.
I'm not going to fire you overanything.
You say, this is a safe placeright now.
I basically went into therapistmode.
(38:21):
It's like, this is a safeenvironment.
I'm not gonna hold it againstyou.
this is your truth, this is whatyou feel.
What would you do?
And everybody, more or less, youknow, shared some ideas,
insights, some more than others.
And I looked for low lyingfruit.
I'm like, okay, is there any ofthese things I can implement
right away?
And I had approval from theboard to do it.
(38:42):
So I did.
I implemented a handful ofthings and next thing you know
they went, we have a CEO thatlistens to us.
And that turned the page and ittook time, but we got it.
And thankfully with that team,you know, I didn't have to let
go anybody, and I didn't giveout raises either, you know,
(39:04):
that was one of everybodythought, oh, you just gave'em a
bunch of extra money to quiet'emup.
No, I didn't.
I didn't give anybody a dime.
I made them feel like theirvoice would be heard and that I
made it a point to.
Understand them and what theyfelt was important, what they
wanted to do in that healthcaresetting.
(39:25):
And it changed outcomes.
It improved performance.
Yes.
I eventually gave people salaryincreases, but not right then I
was like, let's change thisenvironment.
And I think that was a big partof why they had so much turnover
is there was just no trust.
No one would listen andeverybody just felt like they
were on an island by themselves.
And I'm like, no.
we're all on this islandtogether and hopefully we can,
(39:46):
do something great with it.
Mike (39:47):
So, so sounds simple, but it's not to execute what you're
talking about.
It's having the good, open,honest conversations, really
listening and then taking theright action, which doesn't
sound like rocket science andit's not, but it's just.
Something most leaders don'tprioritize the time to do so.
I love that.
Michael, how, well, I mentionedsome of these things, a whole
(40:11):
bunch of these things, you know,in your intro, but tell me a
little bit more about thedifferent ways you work with
clients and the types of clientsyou work with.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (40:22):
Yeah, for me, I'm fortunate to get to do a
lot of different things.
Obviously I have my show, whichyou'll be on later today, which
is really cool to get to havetwo conversations the same day
with awesome people, so I'm verythankful for that.
So, the Breakfast LeadershipShow available on all the
podcast platforms.
do a ton of content creation onour website, breakfast
leadership.com.
Just look for the link articles.
(40:42):
There's all kinds of contentthat gets created there all the
time.
working with teams andindividuals, mostly teams right
now I do, a little bit ofindividual work from time to
time.
I'm a cognitive behavioraltherapist and neurolinguistic
programming or NLP is a wholelot easier to say, therapist.
And, you know, I obtained thosecertifications a few years ago
(41:04):
when I kept running up againstthe same issues time and time
again with people and why theywere stressed and why they were
burned out.
So I work with teams to helpthem with.
You know, their culture tofigure out, you know, what's the
culture that they want, not theculture that I prescribe.
This is how you should do it.
I want what will naturally fitfor that organization.
For that organization to growand thrive because it's a.
(41:26):
As a citizen of this great,beautiful blue planet that we're
on.
I want organizations to thrive.
I want them to be great.
Why?
Because they make great productsand services that we all get to
benefit from.
So that's my mode on that.
And then of course, you know.
Too much work, unfortunately, onburnout, recovery, I'd much
rather do prevention, but as weknow in healthcare, it's all
(41:49):
about recovery.
not as much time and focus onprevention, but working with
people to kind of help them getback to their ideal state for
them.
And then if they're willing todo the deeper dive to figure out
why in the world did I burn outin the first place and make
whatever adjustments they needto do.
So I'm very fortunate that I getto do all the things that I get
to do.
Mike (42:09):
Yeah.
Beautiful.
and where should people go?
You quickly mentioned thebreakfast leadership website, I
think, but what's the best placefor people be?
For people to go if they wannafind out more about you and how
you might be able to help them.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (42:24):
Yeah, breakfastleadership.com is
probably the best place.
links are all there where youcan find all kinds of different
things to do and, you know,enjoy that rabbit hole.
'cause I get to do a lot of funthings and I enjoy doing.
Everybody tells you, you know,focus on something.
I'm like, I'm trying, but.
You know, I have too manyinterests and I want to help too
many people.
So I like, I adapt, I do thewriting, I do the podcast.
(42:45):
I, you know, there's, you know,the coaching consulting, there's
music and there's a music linkthere.
You know, write some music.
So there, it's just, which isreally interesting'cause my
original career was anaccountant, and you're not
supposed to be creative whenyou're an accountant.
So, thankfully I left
Mike (42:59):
That's why you're not an accountant anymore.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (43:02):
Yeah, it's like, no.
Creative accounting gets you injail, so you don't wanna do
that.
but yeah, so, justbreakfastleadership.com.
Mike (43:08):
Excellent.
Well, I always say if you want agreat company, you need a great
leadership team.
Michael, thanks so much forhelping us get there today.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (43:17):
Thank you so much, Mike.
Earning trust is a daily exercise.
It's not a well, they trust menow.
And then you just, you know, putit on autopilot.
No, it's, it is an everydayexercise and being a leader and
a CEO is not an easy task, butit's well worth it.
Mike Goldman (00:23):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the
(00:44):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
Mike (00:57):
My guest today, Michael D Levitt, enables thriving
workplaces.
He's a burnout survivor, an AIsolutions consultant, a global
thought leader on HR andwellness, a therapist, a keynote
speaker, an author, an executivecoach, and the host of the
Breakfast Leadership Team show.
(01:19):
No wonder, Michael, you're aburnout survivor.
that's a lot of stuff, but,welcome to the show.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (01:24):
Great to be with you, Mike.
Looking forward to ourconversation today.
Mike (01:28):
Michael, from all of your experience, what do you believe
is the number one most importantcharacteristic of a great
leadership team?
Dr. Andrew Wittma (01:38):
Togetherness.
Now, I don't know if that's aword or not, but I'm gonna move
them together.
I think that, in any initiative.
With an organization, when youmove forward together, you can
accomplish great things.
And I see way too manyorganizations that are anything
but together.
they're siloed, they'reseparate.
(01:58):
it's actually a wonder thatanything gets done.
Mike (02:04):
And I'm sure that will lead us right into the
conversation we're gonna behaving today, which is really
gonna be focused on workplaceculture.
and, you know, culture is one ofthose words that, that's,
overused.
One of the words that, you know,you ask 12 people and they'll
define it 10 different ways, ifnot 12 different ways.
(02:24):
How do you.
Define workplace culture.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (02:30):
Very similar, you know, with the
togetherness.
But I think it's an environmentwhere you have, and I've been
fortunate to be part oforganizations like this in my
career, where you have a diversegroup.
And I'm not just talking aboutgenders and race, I'm just
talking about skillset and justupbringing and everything else.
When you can collectively bringtogether, some people that have
(02:52):
an absolutely.
Strong passion about what theydo and understand their part.
Of the puzzle to make anorganization successful to
serve, the customer's currentand future needs.
When you have that, that's whenyou can just, quite frankly,
create magic.
it's when you survive pandemicsand economic downturns and
(03:15):
tariffs and anything else thatthe world throws at us.
your organization continues tothrive and grow and serve is
because you've got a strongteam.
That's making all of the thingshappen that need to happen in
the company
Mike (03:31):
Michael, you, we hear so much about.
Culture today and probably hearthat word more often than I
heard it years ago.
does culture matter more nowwith, you know, hybrid and
remote work with ai, witheverything going on in the
world?
Does culture matter more now orhas it always been this
(03:52):
important?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (03:54):
I think it's always been important, but.
On the flip side of that, Ithink that the variety of
generations we have in theworkforce now, which we have a
lot, and even Gen Alpha is gonnabe coming into the workforce
pretty soon if they're notalready there.
it's an interesting dynamic towatch because.
(04:15):
I'm Gen X, and what we findimportant and what we get out of
work and what we put into workmight be different than a Gen Z
or a millennial or even a babyboomer.
there are some variances, and Idon't want to paint it with a
broad stroke because I know manypeople, you know, in different
age groups that have a differentphilosophy around work.
(04:37):
But ultimately, it boils down tothis.
When you go to work, you know,obviously it's there to
compensate you and you exchangeyour time and efforts for
compensation.
But I think that the challengesthat we face in the world has
become more complex.
So, kind of coupling back toyour question, I, I think it's
(04:59):
more important now.
In a way, because the worldtoday is more complex than it
was even a decade ago or 20years ago.
there's so many differentthings, and as you mentioned,
you with ai, remote work, hybridwork, those type of
environments, there's been a lotof changes to the rules of in,
(05:20):
in basically in work and a lotof leaders and employees, both.
I don't want to point fingers ateither one.
But both are trying to figureout how to navigate this world,
and a lot of people are reallystruggling with it.
And if there's not really goodcommunication channels within an
organization, then what happenstime and time again is people
(05:44):
get frustrated.
And that frustration can comeout in a variety of different
ways.
A lot of times it could be badmanagement, a lot of times it
could be.
Absenteeism or disengagement,which we're seeing, you know,
all the studies are indicatingthat, you know, engagement in
the workforce continues to drop,which is concerning, in many
facets.
(06:05):
But that's a long-winded answerto say it's never been more
important than others, but it'salways been important as well.
It's just, but there's a lot ofdynamics going on in the world
right now that's making it, abigger issue than we, we've
probably seen in the past.
Mike (06:18):
Yeah, so, so it's all, what I'm hearing and I agree
with you, is it's always beenimportant.
It's more complex now, way morecomplex now, and, you know, to,
to.
To your point of leaders havingto navigate through that, as
leaders are navigating throughthat, what do you feel like the
(06:39):
biggest blind spot is forleaders that, because I've seen
a lot of leaders that kind ofthink they're building culture,
but they may actually beundermining it.
What's, what do you see is maybethe biggest blind spot leaders
have?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (06:54):
I, I think there's too much of a reliance
of what they know and whatthey've experienced, and not
necessarily, and this could beintentional or it could be
accidental.
a willingness to understand andlearn from others that, are
reporting to them.
yes, we have mentors or weshould anyway, and that can
(07:14):
guide us in everything that wedo.
But I think a lot of it has todo with just, you know,
listening to your team, andtrusting your team.
and I talk to people all thetime and especially around the
arena of should we allow remotework to continue or do we need
to bring'em in every day of theweek?
And I've had managers tell me,well, I don't trust my employees
to do their job when they'reworking remotely.
(07:36):
And I said, well then you needto fire them right now.
And they look at me, it's like Ican't fire'em.
I need them.
they're, they do great work.
I'm like, but you don't trustthem to do great work But they
do great work.
I'm confused.
And so are they, because theirown, you know, their own head,
they're confused about itbecause I think a lot of it is
they miss seeing people.
(07:57):
I think that's a big part of it.
A lot of people say it'smicromanagement and maybe
there's an element of that, butI think a lot of it's just they
miss the human interaction.
I think that's what we'redesigned to do.
So I think that's one of thereasons why so many have
struggled.
But, the blind spots thatleaders see all the time is, you
know.
Their own limiting beliefs andalso just, you know, their own
experiences and maybe not beingexposed to, you know, different
(08:21):
ideas of things that we can do.
Mike (08:23):
Yeah.
And going back to what you saidabout the idea of remote work,
what I find interesting and I'mwondering what you see here, is
when that, you know, back whenCOVID hit and remote work was a
new thing, there were.
Leaders that were reallyconfused as to how to deal with
it.
How do I know my people areproductive if I can't see them?
(08:47):
Which amazed me because I said,wait a minute, like, does
productivity mean they're.
Working long hours, they'reworking hard.
Do you have to see them or isproductivity about measurable
results?
And I find you know what it is,what it's challenged the better
leaders to do is to get betterat figuring out what the
(09:09):
measurable results are that theywant to see.
And so it's not like, do I trustpeople to be working harder or
not?
It's.
are they getting the resultsthat we want?
And I think pre remote work,people weren't as focused on
defining what those measurableresults were, and maybe remote
and hybrid is challenging thebetter leaders to get better at
(09:32):
figuring that stuff out.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (09:35):
Yeah, I agree with you.
I think it's, and it was a bigchallenge for a lot of managers
that used to manage by beingseen and constantly checking in
on things.
There wasn't the systems inplace for them to.
Say, okay, how do we actuallymeasure what we do?
You know, what are the outcomes?
You know, one of the things youknow, that I completely borrowed
(09:57):
from a boss that I had 25 yearsago was, and he, I remember this
and I, I shared this on my showin other shows in the past as I
remember my first day workingthere at 3:32PM I remember the
time specifically, he came to mycubicle and said, okay, I'm just
gonna lay down the ground rules.
So what.
I'd like to work here.
I'm like, okay, here we go.
(10:17):
And he said, I don't care whenyou get here.
I don't care when you leave.
Just make sure you keep meupdated on what you need.
If you have any issues, you knowhow to reach me.
I deliver outcomes.
I tell you when it's due.
I hopefully you have all thetools you need to be able to do
it.
Have fun while you work here.
And I sat back in my chairgoing, you know, I think I'm
(10:39):
gonna be here a while.
And I was there for almost fouryears and this was during
the.com era when everybody wasbouncing around'cause they were
getting big salary raises andstock options and everything
else.
But I stayed at thatorganization and they took care
of me quite well.
but it was because they createdthe environment for me to thrive
and.
This is one of those thingswhere I think managers still
(11:00):
have a lot of work and leadersof all levels have a lot of work
to do.
They have to figure out, okay,what do we need to get done?
What's the roadmap that we knowof?
'cause you know, every time youknow, start a project or
anything like that, there'salways gonna be an opportunity
for something new, uncertain,change in scope.
You name it, there's all kindsof things that can throw things
off, but as long as you know.
(11:23):
What are we supposed to produce?
When is it due?
What do we need to have?
Who do we have resource wisethat can get this done?
What's the estimated time thatit's gonna take?
Go to it.
And you have obviously built incheck-in periods so you don't go
off the rails.
But too often managers, becausethey were never properly
(11:44):
trained, how to manage, will bethere every step of the way.
instead of leading back and justgoing, okay, let me manage this
instead of trying to do it.
And I see it time and time againwhere they just get over
involved in it and end upslowing things down.
And I know a lot of managersdon't like hearing that, but
it's like, you're actually thebottleneck.
(12:04):
They don't like hearing that,but it's like you're the
bottleneck because you're kind,you're taking them away for
these 30 minute sessions.
Five times a week.
You don't need to do that andgive'em what they need to do.
Let them do it.
That's why you hired them.
If you don't trust them and theycan't do the job, then of
course, you know, make a change.
But you gotta let'em try.
you're teaching your kid how toride a bike.
(12:26):
If you're on constantly ridingthe bike for them, they're not
gonna learn how to ride thebike.
Mike (12:32):
What you wrote a book called Workplace Culture.
You work with clients on theircultures.
What are, when you work with aclient, give me a sense of how
you, and therefore a leaderlistening to this, might think
about how they can go do this.
How do you like kind of, wheredo you start?
How should a leader be thinkingabout the different components
(12:54):
of culture?
And it's too easy to say, man,we gotta work on our culture, or
morale stinks, or, I don'trecognize this place.
Like how do we take it and turnit into a set of steps?
What.
what are the first things theyought to look at and what are
the components of culture thatleaders ought to be thinking
about and taking action on?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (13:16):
Yeah.
What I do is, and I don't startfrom page one type of thing.
You meet people where they're atand you say, okay, what?
You know, what is.
Your situation, you know, askingfrom their point of view of what
they would like to improve here,what's going well?
And I start with what's goingwell.
Because a lot of times whenconsultants come in, it's like,
(13:36):
okay, what's broken?
What's not working?
Like, no, what's going wellhere?
Because there might be someclues in what they're doing well
that could be applied to otherareas of.
Improvement that they would liketo see.
So you find out what's goingwell, and then from there you
say, okay, what are some thingsyou're seeing?
what are the results that youwant that you're not currently
(13:58):
getting?
You know, and just kind of getthem to start thinking about
that and get that mindset movingof, okay, these are the things
I'm not seeing.
and sometimes they could bebiased and they say, well, I
wanna see this.
Okay, but you're getting theresults, but you're not getting
them the way that you want them,but you're still getting the
results.
So you're basically doing alittle forensic work trying to
(14:19):
figure out, okay, how do theythink, you know, what is
something that they wanna see?
And this could be an individualleader or the leadership team,
or even the front lines, youknow, asking them, you know,
what do they want out of things.
And from there.
And we start working.
Okay, let's pick one area tofocus on first, because if you
try to change everything atonce, and I learned this in my
(14:39):
IT days, well, if somethingbreaks, you don't know what
broke it.
You know, you change 15 things,well one of those 15 broke
something, but you're not surewhich one it is.
So it's like, let's start small,build some momentum, and then we
can, you know, continue fromthere.
But that's, you know, theexercise that I walk them
through.
And then of course, you know,it's like, okay, what does.
(15:01):
culture look like to you?
What does that look like?
And it might be, again, biased.
You know, they may want theenvironment to be this way where
the employees and the managementteam.
They want something different.
So you gotta, and that's why youtalk with as many people as you
can to kind of get an idea ofhow many organizations you're
dealing with there.
Because in many cases, andyou've seen this of course too,
(15:24):
where you go into anorganization, they say, well, we
do this.
And you ask, you know, like Isaid, 10 people and they give
you 13 different answers of whoyou are.
And you're like, oh, okay, wellI see the problem or one of'em
anyway.
You guys don't know who you areand let's figure that out and
then address it accordingly.
Mike (15:41):
is the definition of culture driven from the top down
or is it driven by whatemployees want?
Is it driven from the bottom up?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (17:13):
for the longest time, I always have
felt, and I still do to acertain extent that, you know,
the culture is dictated by theleader.
when I took over a toxicworkplace and reduced turnover,
dramatically, it was because ofme and my team and what I saw
the team would do and how theycould do it.
but.
In unison.
(17:33):
I did that by, you know, seekingthe guidance from the team to
ask'em what type of environmentthey wanted.
So I wasn't in this boat of,it's going to be this way.
I wanted it to be what feltnatural and.
Welcoming and comfortable to acertain degree, to the team.
You know?
'cause if you give'em everythingthey want, well then you still
(17:56):
may not hit all your goalsbecause, you know, people tend
to lean towards comfort avenueinstead of Challenge Road.
And sometimes Challenge Roadhelps you grow and serve more
people.
So I still think it's the toneand the direction is from the
leader.
But it would behoove the leaderand the managers to get the
(18:16):
input from everybody to makesure that is the direction that
everyone.
You know, and you know, itdoesn't have to be everyone, but
what the team naturallygravitates to.
Because unless you wanna do acomplete turnover the team and
bring in new people that agreewith your vision, and sometimes
you have to do that because you,things are just so entrenched.
(18:37):
It's like, oh, we gotta use aJack Welch term and dehire a
bunch of people.
I prefer not to do that.
I don't like doing that.
I never have, but sometimes it'snecessary.
But I, again, to answer yourquestion, I do think it's the
leader that sets the directionand the tone of what the culture
will be, but they have tounderstand who their team is
(18:58):
because if you set a culture andthe team isn't capable of doing
that, then you know you're gonnarun into a lot of friction, for
quite some time.
Mike (19:07):
Yeah, and I think the opposite of that, if you, if it
is bottoms up where you're like,Hey, what does the team want?
You know, I have, you know,teams that do an exercise around
what their core values are andthey ask everybody in the
organization.
And they kind of boil all thatup and say, here's what's
important to everybody.
That sounds nice.
The problem I've had with thatis if the leader of the company
(19:33):
doesn't model those core values,if they're not a model of the
culture, it becomes all talk.
Right?
if you say, here's our culture,and the leader does something
different'cause it's not whothey are.
then, you know, you've got areally big disconnect.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (19:52):
Most definitely.
You cannot say, this is how wedo things, and then not do those
yourself like.
They say, okay, we want, youknow, in office five days a
week, which a lot oforganizations are doing right
now.
and if you as the leader, aren'tthere five days a week, good
luck.
there's, people are gonna say,oh, I guess it's not for him or
(20:12):
her.
And that's not a good thing.
You have to demonstrate and act.
The act.
And.
If that's difficult for you,then again, it's a growth
opportunity for you to say,okay, this is the culture I
want.
Well, then you have to behaveand act that way and set the
tone because many people mimic,you know, the behaviors of their
(20:33):
leadership.
You know, whether it was, youknow, people coming in late and
all of this stuff and theleaders, you know, the first one
there, all of a sudden you startseeing some people, I gotta show
up a little bit earlier.
and not that they're gonna beatyou to the door, but you know,
maybe they might.
I've seen that where, you know,I tend to be an early riser and
get in early And I found thatsome people that tend to be a
(20:54):
little bit later, all of asudden, they just started coming
in earlier.
I didn't say a thing to them.
I didn't say anything abouttheir attendance, what time they
came in and all that.
I was, you know, borrowing frommy former boss.
I don't care when you get inhere, just as long as you get
your work done, you know, we'regood.
I'm more concerned aboutproductivity than okay.
The hours that you were here,you know, if you're really
(21:16):
efficient and you get everythingthat you're supposed to get done
in five hours instead of eight.
Okay.
You know, I'm not, you know, oneof those people that, oh, you
gotta gimme those extra threehours.
'cause we all know whatproductivity does.
You know, if you're gettingthree hours of productivity
outta somebody in an eight hourday, you're doing pretty good
just because of all kinds ofdifferent factors involved in
(21:37):
that.
But it's, again, you have to, asa leader, you have to
demonstrate the behavior thatyou want.
Because if you don't, well thenyou know they're gonna mimic
you.
And they're gonna say, well,he's just all talk.
Or she's all talk.
And why?
Why would I listen to them?
And all of a sudden the trustfactor starts to erode or be
completely gone.
(21:58):
And then you have a really bigchallenge on your hands.
Mike (21:59):
How do you know when you talk about.
When we talk about productivityor results, that's very
quantitative.
We could measure that.
When we talk about culture, andI'll use the word you used at
the top of the show,togetherness is a way to think
about it.
When we talk about culture, thatfeels a lot more intangible,
that feels a lot morequalitative and not
(22:22):
quantitative.
How do you, or can you, in youropinion, measure.
Culture in a way that showswhether you've got an empowering
culture or a disempowering one.
If you are working on someculture change activities, is
that culture, are thoseactivities working or not?
(22:43):
Is there a way to measureculture?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (22:47):
There is, depending on what you again,
define as culture, if.
You want a culture whereeverybody is being, you know,
productive.
You can measure the productivitynumbers, you can measure
satisfaction scores.
If you survey your clients onthings, you can also survey,
okay, what's attendance lookinglike?
Again, not being, you know,someone that's.
(23:09):
Overly managing being say, okay,what time do they come in?
What time do they leave?
All that kinda stuff.
You can also just measure it inhallway conversations, or even
if it's in remote teams, typesof situations.
You know, how are peopleinteracting with each other?
Before the quote unquote meetingofficially starts.
So if, you know, if people are,you know, chatting, you know, in
(23:31):
a group setting or somethinglike that, or, you know, they're
just, you know, making light ofsituations that are going on
right now and just trying to behappy and jovial, or, again,
there's a lot of intrinsicfactors you can look at.
And that's, again, this goesdown to, and this is not a
micromanagement thing, but it'salso the, you know, the check-in
(23:51):
with your team.
And I remember during thepandemic, I was running a
non-profit at the time, at thebeginning of it anyway.
And I remember when the firsttime we could collectively come
together in person.
We were, you know, obviouslyseparated in a big room in a
boardroom that was big enoughwhere we could keep distance and
everybody was masked up and allof that.
(24:11):
And normally for those meetingsprior to the pandemic starting,
everyone would give a debrief ofwhat's going on and, You know,
basically, you know, they said,okay, let you know.
Let's go and start the meeting.
And, you know, the first personstarts said, well, here's the
update on this.
And I literally stood up and Ijust did a timeout.
I said, okay, this meeting,we're not gonna talk about
(24:32):
anything about work.
We're gonna talk about.
How are you doing?
What's working for you?
What challenges are you facing?
Anything you've learned to helpyou navigate what's going on
right now in the world as far asgetting access to things to
share with everybody else.
So if they're looking for helpor guidance or where can we find
toilet paper or you know, wherecan we get this or.
(24:56):
Is there any places that you'rehanging out and meeting with
people?
And so we did that and at theend of the meeting, I asked,
okay, is anything going on?
And there was like two or threethings that they need to bring
up.
Normally, you know, usingParkinson's law, let's fill up
that meeting hour, where this,there was like a couple things
that quite frankly could havebeen an email when it came to
(25:17):
the work related issues.
But it was a, I right now, Ijust care about.
You as a human being, which Ialways do, but specifically now
because this is prettycatastrophic of what we're going
through.
And that created an environmentwhere people just could relax a
little bit and they knew that,hey, you, if you need to do
(25:37):
something to take care ofsomething, do it.
Family comes first.
we'll sort everything out later.
And that was the environmentthat I wanted to have and
thankfully did have there andinherited a lot of it there
because it was already kind ofthere from the previous, person
who was the founder of theorganization that, unfortunately
passed away.
(25:57):
So I came in replacing somebodythat had been there forever.
So that was obviously a, aninteresting dynamic as well.
And there was obviously a lot ofconcern about.
Me coming in with my backgroundgoing in and changing everything
up and making it a business andall that, and it's like, no, I
wanted to meet people where theywere.
Mike (26:16):
How do you balance it?
So, so you, that's a goodexample of being a leader that
really cares not just about thebusiness, but caring about your
people.
And, you know, I have seen overmy 35 plus years coaching
consulting is there are someleaders that really do care
(26:36):
about their people, but they'renot necessarily, they don't have
that same.
talent may be the wrong word,but they don't have that same
focus on holding peopleaccountable and having the
difficult conversation.
I've seen other leaders that arepretty good at holding people
accountable and having thedifficult conversation, but they
(26:58):
don't show a lot of caringtowards folks, how do you
balance.
Those two.
if you know, you, if you're aCEO, you wanna create a culture
that genuinely cares for people.
How do you balance that with,the discipline and
accountability around gettingresults?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (27:19):
Yeah, it's, yeah.
Sympathy is a big thing.
And I, and a lot, I know somepeople, you know, aren't very
sympathetic or empathetic.
I have a colleague that I'veknown for almost a decade, and
she actually went and sought outprofessional empathy training
because she did not have it.
and she recognized that and shewanted to have it.
(27:40):
So, that was, I commend her fordoing that, but, and I, it
brings me up to an example.
I remember in running ahealthcare clinic, I had a.
a nurse that was absolutelyamazing.
just stellar.
I didn't want to call her bunnyrabbit'cause that's not a, you
know, but when she walked, shebounced.
She was that happy.
(28:01):
and then she had a personalsituation in her life that took
a toll on her and she was nolonger that happy go-lucky bunny
rabbit.
She was pretty down, makingmistakes, a lot of absenteeism.
I am pretty sure there may havebeen some, addiction issues that
(28:21):
were arising up.
So it was front from, you know,your a number one all star
employee to someone that isdefinitely having some
challenges.
So, you know, had thosedifficult conversations and
said, okay, you know, share whatyou can,'cause I don't wanna get
too personal, but.
it's impacting the work here anddo you need to take some time
(28:44):
away?
And so, you know, she took acouple weeks off, came back,
wasn't bouncy again, but was alittle bit better.
And then it reverted back tobeing, you know, problematic.
Absent and all that and what washappening, the rest of the team
are going, well, if she couldtake time off, so am I.
And all of a sudden you're like,oh, great, now we have a
problem.
we have, this is contagious.
(29:05):
Alright, we have a contagionhere.
What are we gonna do about this?
So, brought her in again andsaid, look, you know, we're, we
can't have this, I know you'regoing through some difficult
times.
Do we need to adjust yourschedule, cut your schedule back
a little bit so you can addresswhatever you need to do
personally, but need you here.
And when you're here, I need youalso here.
And again, there was a littlebit of a rebound, but then it
(29:29):
went back again.
I'm like, okay, so, you know,basically you brought her in and
she said, you know what, I thinkI need to step away.
I think I'm gonna quit because,you know, this is not good.
And I said, well, for you to getunemployment insurance and
continued benefits and thingslike that, why don't I, let you
go so you know, and make sureyour benefits continue for a
(29:51):
period of time.
Give you a little bit of aseverance and send you on your
way and hope, please get yourhelp.
And I saw her a year later andshe had cleaned up, rebounded
life was good again, was in agood role.
I gave her a reference, andcorrected the issue.
Was it difficult to go through?
Yeah, but it needed to happenbecause otherwise I would've had
(30:12):
several people doing that thing.
And again, that it's a one offtype of situation, but we're
dealing with human beings andsometimes we wanna use this
boiler plate, template to say,okay, the next step, this and
this.
But humans are messy.
And sometimes you have to get inthe mud a little bit to kind of
figure out, alright, what do weneed to do here to hopefully
(30:35):
help the employee return tobeing a productive one?
Or, you know, look for anopportunity to, make a change,
as, as pleasant as possible tomake that situation as pleasant
as possible.
'cause it's never pleasant.
Mike (30:49):
We, we talked earlier about the importance of the
leader.
That CEO of the organization,defining and modeling culture.
One of the challenges that I'veseen is the leader of the
organization or even the leaderof a team.
Might be partially blind towhat's really going on in that
(31:13):
team.
There's an assessment that I dowith teams and it assesses all
parts of the team, and part ofit is some questions around
whether they have a powerful,resilient culture.
And what I find is almost alwaysthe CEOs believe the culture is
(31:33):
stronger.
That everybody else believes.
And part of it is that peopletreat the CEO in a certain way
because their name's on theirchecks.
They're gonna treat them acertain way, and the CEO doesn't
necessarily see how that personis treating.
Someone else, I've had a leadersay, oh, this person, real
(31:57):
challenge.
they're pessimistic.
they're not collaborative withteam members.
They're disrespectful to, andthe CEO says, wait a minute, are
we talking about the sameperson?
Like, they never act that waytowards me.
And it's like, yeah,'causeyou're the CEO people treat you
a certain way, so.
For the CEOs or even the teamleaders, listening to this, what
(32:21):
are some signals that theyshould look for to tell them
that their culture is sliding totell them that their culture
isn't as resilient andempowering as they think it is.
what should a leader be lookingat to help them understand if
(32:42):
they've got a problem.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (32:44):
Yeah, I think there's several things.
One, you know, the metrics, youknow, look at performance.
If performance is sliding alittle bit or is not where it
could be, that could be anindicator.
Another thing that, and this isa really a slippery slope, you
gotta be careful with this.
you have to have trustedadvisors.
and what I mean by that is, youknow, have people that are in
the, using a union term, rankand file, that aren't a manager.
(33:09):
You know, maybe they're.
You know, and just, you know, I,you know, not a manager, but
just a, one of the employeesthere.
Create an element of trust wherethey can bring things to you,
not a spy or a mole kind ofthing.
You don't want that because thenthat creates all kinds of
different dynamics that youreally do not want to have, but
you wanna talk with some peopleand kind of get the pulse and
(33:30):
get them, and this is hard.
But to earn their trust wherethey can confidently share with
you some insights.
And like the example you said,you know, there could be an
employee that is constantlykissing the CEO's butt, but you
find out that they are, youknow, an absolute horrible
person to work with, orproblematic.
They don't collaborate.
(33:50):
they take all the credit and donone of the work kind of thing.
And if you're aware.
And again, it's difficult.
This is not a skill thateverybody has.
It's something you can learn,but it's not a skill everybody
has where you can be aware ofsituations and go, okay, yeah,
I'm seeing this, but the feel isa little bit different.
there's something off here andyou just approach it in a way
(34:14):
and you can ask questions thatcan kind of flush some of those
things out, but.
Bottom line is you have tocreate an environment where
people trust you and can be thereal version of you.
Yes.
There's always gonna be thatlooking up to the CEO and you're
the thank you so much for thisjob, but one of the things that
I do is I want you to be realwith me.
I want you to have.
(34:35):
Those, you know, if you need tobring something to me, do it.
You know, I think of AlanMulally when he took over Ford
Motor Company and it wasbleeding money and all the
reports that he was getting was,Hey, we're doing great, which
was just complete bull.
And finally one person showedup, with a report that showed,
okay, we're in the red on thisand this, and Mulally cheered.
(34:57):
And then the next week everybodyshowed up with the true reports
and they realized.
Okay.
Wow.
we're in bad shape here.
And he was thrilled.
He's like, finally, okay, now wecan start doing the work we need
to do.
'cause everybody's afraid CEOwill fire me.
Well, yeah, the CEO EO can fireyou of course.
But you know what a way aroundthat is, you know, go in, do
(35:17):
your job to the best of yourability.
and you know, hopefullyeverything works out for the
best.
But it's, again, for me, from myvantage point, it.
Earning trust is a dailyexercise.
It's not a well, they trust menow.
And then you just, you know, putit on autopilot.
No, it's, it is an everydayexercise and being a leader and
(35:37):
a CEO is not an easy task, butit's well worth it.
Mike (35:42):
Yeah, and I love the Alan Malali Ford story.
And by the way, if you'reinterested in learning more
about that, there's a wonderfulbook called American Icon that
tells that story.
and I know that story well, andthe gentleman you're talking
about is Mark Fields who decidedhe was gonna be honest.
And what I love about thatstory.
Is around that leadership tablewhen Mark Field says We're in
(36:03):
the red.
and everybody else, you know,thought he was gonna get his
head chopped off because that'swhat would've happened in the
previous administration.
Alan said, thank you for yourhonesty.
Let's all figure out how we'regonna help Mark.
And all of a sudden everybodyrealized, oh crap.
we're a team here.
This is not about individuals.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (36:23):
And Mark ended up being CEO of Ford for a
while too.
So it's, it speaks volumes tothat.
You know, I had the fortune tomeet Alan at a conference
several years ago, and, youknow, I told him, I was, you
know, basically, I originallyfrom Detroit, so, had some ties.
I thanked him for, the couragethat it took for him to take
that role.
'cause yes, you, you get offereda role and you take it, all that
(36:46):
stuff.
As a leader, there's an elementof courage, especially if you're
taking an organization that isbleeding, which it definitely
was when he.
Took over the reins and you knowthat Ford was the one of the big
three that did not take,government money.
GM and Chrysler both filedbankruptcy, during the Great
recession.
Ford did not.
And a lot of that had to dowith, the work that Alan did to
(37:08):
prevent that from happening.
Mike (37:09):
Yeah.
Love that story.
Love that story.
If, you know, as we start towrap up, I wanna.
To help, our listeners come upwith one action they can take.
So, so if a leader could makejust one small change to create
a thriving workplace, to createa great workplace culture, if a
(37:30):
leader could make just one smallchange tomorrow to start
improving their culture, whatwould you advise them to do?
Dr. Andrew Wittman (37:40):
When I turned over a healthcare
organization that was averagingalmost 90% turnover annually,
that's nine out of 10 peopleleaving master's level and above
educated clinicians in doctorsleaving.
Every year and after my firstyear there, I reduced it to 6%,
so less than one out of 10.
(38:00):
What did I do?
I went in and I met witheverybody and I asked them this
question, if you were in myseat, what would you do?
I said, nothing's off the table.
You're not gonna get in trouble.
I'm not going to fire you overanything.
You say, this is a safe placeright now.
I basically went into therapistmode.
(38:21):
It's like, this is a safeenvironment.
I'm not gonna hold it againstyou.
this is your truth, this is whatyou feel.
What would you do?
And everybody, more or less, youknow, shared some ideas,
insights, some more than others.
And I looked for low lyingfruit.
I'm like, okay, is there any ofthese things I can implement
right away?
And I had approval from theboard to do it.
(38:42):
So I did.
I implemented a handful ofthings and next thing you know
they went, we have a CEO thatlistens to us.
And that turned the page and ittook time, but we got it.
And thankfully with that team,you know, I didn't have to let
go anybody, and I didn't giveout raises either, you know,
(39:04):
that was one of everybodythought, oh, you just gave'em a
bunch of extra money to quiet'emup.
No, I didn't.
I didn't give anybody a dime.
I made them feel like theirvoice would be heard and that I
made it a point to.
Understand them and what theyfelt was important, what they
wanted to do in that healthcaresetting.
(39:25):
And it changed outcomes.
It improved performance.
Yes.
I eventually gave people salaryincreases, but not right then I
was like, let's change thisenvironment.
And I think that was a big partof why they had so much turnover
is there was just no trust.
No one would listen andeverybody just felt like they
were on an island by themselves.
And I'm like, no.
we're all on this islandtogether and hopefully we can,
(39:46):
do something great with it.
Mike (39:47):
So, so sounds simple, but it's not to execute what you're
talking about.
It's having the good, open,honest conversations, really
listening and then taking theright action, which doesn't
sound like rocket science andit's not, but it's just.
Something most leaders don'tprioritize the time to do so.
I love that.
Michael, how, well, I mentionedsome of these things, a whole
(40:11):
bunch of these things, you know,in your intro, but tell me a
little bit more about thedifferent ways you work with
clients and the types of clientsyou work with.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (40:22):
Yeah, for me, I'm fortunate to get to do a
lot of different things.
Obviously I have my show, whichyou'll be on later today, which
is really cool to get to havetwo conversations the same day
with awesome people, so I'm verythankful for that.
So, the Breakfast LeadershipShow available on all the
podcast platforms.
do a ton of content creation onour website, breakfast
leadership.com.
Just look for the link articles.
(40:42):
There's all kinds of contentthat gets created there all the
time.
working with teams andindividuals, mostly teams right
now I do, a little bit ofindividual work from time to
time.
I'm a cognitive behavioraltherapist and neurolinguistic
programming or NLP is a wholelot easier to say, therapist.
And, you know, I obtained thosecertifications a few years ago
(41:04):
when I kept running up againstthe same issues time and time
again with people and why theywere stressed and why they were
burned out.
So I work with teams to helpthem with.
You know, their culture tofigure out, you know, what's the
culture that they want, not theculture that I prescribe.
This is how you should do it.
I want what will naturally fitfor that organization.
For that organization to growand thrive because it's a.
(41:26):
As a citizen of this great,beautiful blue planet that we're
on.
I want organizations to thrive.
I want them to be great.
Why?
Because they make great productsand services that we all get to
benefit from.
So that's my mode on that.
And then of course, you know.
Too much work, unfortunately, onburnout, recovery, I'd much
rather do prevention, but as weknow in healthcare, it's all
(41:49):
about recovery.
not as much time and focus onprevention, but working with
people to kind of help them getback to their ideal state for
them.
And then if they're willing todo the deeper dive to figure out
why in the world did I burn outin the first place and make
whatever adjustments they needto do.
So I'm very fortunate that I getto do all the things that I get
to do.
Mike (42:09):
Yeah.
Beautiful.
and where should people go?
You quickly mentioned thebreakfast leadership website, I
think, but what's the best placefor people be?
For people to go if they wannafind out more about you and how
you might be able to help them.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (42:24):
Yeah, breakfastleadership.com is
probably the best place.
links are all there where youcan find all kinds of different
things to do and, you know,enjoy that rabbit hole.
'cause I get to do a lot of funthings and I enjoy doing.
Everybody tells you, you know,focus on something.
I'm like, I'm trying, but.
You know, I have too manyinterests and I want to help too
many people.
So I like, I adapt, I do thewriting, I do the podcast.
(42:45):
I, you know, there's, you know,the coaching consulting, there's
music and there's a music linkthere.
You know, write some music.
So there, it's just, which isreally interesting'cause my
original career was anaccountant, and you're not
supposed to be creative whenyou're an accountant.
So, thankfully I left
Mike (42:59):
That's why you're not an accountant anymore.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (43:02):
Yeah, it's like, no.
Creative accounting gets you injail, so you don't wanna do
that.
but yeah, so, justbreakfastleadership.com.
Mike (43:08):
Excellent.
Well, I always say if you want agreat company, you need a great
leadership team.
Michael, thanks so much forhelping us get there today.
Dr. Andrew Wittman (43:17):
Thank you so much, Mike.
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