August 5, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode, I sit down with Shauna Moran, burnout prevention expert, women’s leadership coach, and breathwork facilitator. We explore the systemic causes of burnout, why women in leadership are particularly impacted, and how to help your high-performing team members thrive. We also dive into personal strategies for leaders to manage their own well-being, reconnect with their purpose, and show up from their zone of genius.
Website: www.shaunamoran.com
Email: info@shaunamoran.com
Thanks for listening! Connect with us at mike-goldman.com/blog and on Instagram@mikegoldmancoach and on YouTube @Mikegoldmancoach
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shauna Moran (00:01):
And high performers are actually the most
likely to experience workplaceburnout, yet they hide it so
well, which I'm sure you'veprobably seen in your work,
Mike, they hide it really,really well because they just
keep on high performing andnobody really knows that
they're.
They're going through achallenge, right, or that they
need something else.
So it's often the case.
I'm working with women leadersand high performers as well,
Mike Goldman (00:31):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the
(00:51):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
MiIke Goldman (01:05):
Shauna Moran award-winning women's leadership
coach, burnout preventionspecialist, international
keynote speaker, publishedauthor and breathwork
facilitator.
In a world where leadership andwellbeing, or essential, Shauna
stands out by delivering sciencebacked strategies and deeply
human insight.
(01:26):
That go beyond surface levelsolutions, a sought after
speaker.
She empowers leaders andorganizations to build
resilient, high performingcultures where people and
profits thrive.
Shauna inspires lastingtransformation through practical
tools, compelling stories, and apowerful mission to advance
women's leadership and preventburnout in today's demanding.
(01:50):
Professional landscape.
And today we're gonna talk aboutboth those things, burnout and
women's leadership.
Shauna, welcome to the show.
Shauna Moran (01:58):
Thanks for having me, Mike.
It's great to be here.
MiIke Goldman (02:02):
So my first question, as always is, Shauna,
from all of your experience,what do you believe is the one
most important characteristic ofa great leadership team?
Shauna Moran (02:13):
Great question.
I'm sure many people comment onthat because it really gets.
You're thinking, and I'm betweentwo things.
Number one, an openness.
Are we open as a leadership teamto trying new things to hearing
alternative perspectives?
Are we open to suspending ourown judgments, our own ego?
(02:37):
So that we can manage change,uncertainty, all of those
things.
So I think openness is reallykey on a leadership team.
How do we, how do we get to aplace where we're continually
open and we're not just stuck inthe old ways of doing things or
in the old thinking?
And you know, oftentimes whenwe're introducing new thinking,
resistance can come up.
So what are we doing to remainopen as a leadership team?
(02:58):
So I think that's number one.
And the second thing I think isreally important if we want to
be open is respect.
You know, how do we show up withrespect, for each other as we
challenge the hard things andtalk about the hard things?
We need that undercurrent andthat foundation of respect.
MiIke Goldman (03:17):
Yeah.
And I'm gonna allow you cheatingand answering two things because
they're related to each other.
So, Shauna, I'm gonna, I'm gonnaallow it, although you, you
tried to cheat from the firstquestion.
No, but I, I love that.
and what I've seen interested inyour experience with this, with
the openness and the respect,more than anything I have seen
(03:38):
that needs to be modeled fromthe very top, from the CEO.
If the CEO is not open to newideas, if they shut people down,
if they don't, if they're notcurious about other people's
ideas, if they don't showrespect for other people's
ideas, that tends to cascadedown through the rest of the
team.
Shauna Moran (03:58):
Absolutely it does.
MiIke Goldman (04:01):
So, Shauna, why did you decide we're gonna focus
on burnout, and women'sleadership and, um, I'm sure
there's some tie between thetwo, uh, or, or maybe you'll
tell me there's not, but why didyou decide, in your practice, in
your business, why did youdecide to focus on those topics
in particular?
Shauna Moran (04:21):
In a way, Mike, it wasn't really a decision, it was
more of a calling, as cliche asthat might, may sound, my life
path is often about having.
Big experiences and been able toturn those experiences and, and
often that pain into wisdom andto share that and to be able to,
(04:42):
to show up for others in, inthose ways.
So it started with my own story.
being a, a female leader in acorporate environment over the
years and working my way up, Ithought that, you know, that
there was really.
Something wrong with me when Ihad burnt out three times by the
age of 28.
Um, uh, so I had my ownexperiences, my own challenges
(05:04):
with that.
Um, I burnt out.
What I realized from my researchis for many different reasons,
every single time I burnt out,it was because of a different
root cause.
and when I left my corporatejob, I started my own business.
I was consulting primarily foragencies and tech companies.
Um, I used to work with Shopify,so that's where my background is
(05:25):
in tech and e-commerce andbusiness strategy.
And quite quickly I realized inthose advisory and consultancy
services that, oh, it's not justme that experienced.
That burnout actually stress andworkplace stress is a common
problem I'm seeing amongst allleadership teams and all
organizations, and what I reallyfound was that nobody was
(05:51):
actually solving the problem.
It was all surface levelsolutions.
That we're focused on theindividual and leaving out that
systemic lens of what do we needto do as an organization to
ensure that our systems, ourprocesses, our culture and our
skills support sustainablewellbeing as we grow.
So my curious mind led me downthe path of research and I ended
(06:14):
up writing a book in 2021 calledManaging Employee Burnout, how
to, Retain and Engage.
Teams without stress.
And through that research, Mike,I found out that it was women in
the workplace that women inleadership positions in
particular, that were thehighest demographic to
(06:34):
experience workplace burnout.
And I mean, I could see that inmy work as well, but to actually
see the data on that, andthankfully now we actually have
a lot more data on that.
Um, you know, we know that onein three women.
in leadership positions considerleaving their role due to
workplace stress.
we know that McKinsey found in2021, 52% of female leaders,
(06:55):
have experienced or reportfeeling burnt out in their role.
So, the, the women's work was,um, a result of that research
and I became really passionateabout, I'm always passionate
about.
You know, getting women intoleadership positions, I've, you
know, it's, it's so important,but how do we get them to
actually thrive, not justsurvive in those leadership
(07:17):
positions?
And that's where my work comesin with women leaders.
MiIke Goldman (07:21):
I definitely wanna come back to.
Your thoughts on why womenexperience it more often, uh,
that that's, you know, obviouslycurious about that.
but before I ask you thatquestion, I wanna rewind a
little bit in talking aboutburnout.
You know, how do you defineburnout and how do we know if we
(07:43):
or someone is burnt out or justtired or just frustrated?
how do you define it?
Shauna Moran (07:48):
Yeah, well really when we're talking about
burnout, we're talking about,you know, a chronic state of
stress that's going on for along time.
So we're not gonna get burnt outafter a busy week, a busy month,
not even after a busy quarter.
But if we are exposed to thosechronic stressors on the job
over and over and over and overagain, where we're not able to
(08:11):
regulate our system and actuallymanage that stress effectively,
that's where we can start tofall into what's known as
burnout.
There's actually five stages toburnout.
So, you know, there's, you know,the optimism phase where we're
feeling very optimistic and wecan manage the stress.
And again, if.
The chronic stress or whatever'scausing the stress, and it could
(08:31):
be a couple of different things.
If they don't change or improve,we start to move down into
different stages of burnout,where we may feel things like
more anxiety, sleep issues,more, um, less of a, an
optimistic mindset.
social withdrawal can be a bigthing.
But the thing is, Mike, youknow, everybody experiences and,
(08:51):
and shows stress in differentways, right?
For some of us it's veryemotional.
For some of us it's physical.
For some of us it's morecognitive.
We struggle to make decisions.
so we're all so different, andYou know, I think that the big
thing is, you know, we'realways, we're going to be
exposed to stress.
That's the world that we livein.
And not all stress is badstress.
you know, we talk about healthystress and unhealthy stress.
(09:14):
You know, healthy stress is thatbig ambitious goal.
Let's go.
We're pumped, we're excitedabout it.
We reduce stress too much.
We're gonna get bored.
We call it bore out, right?
So we have to find that optimalzone as an organization, as
leaders, as a leadership teamwithin our teams.
What is that?
What is that optimal zone wherewe have the right amount of
stress, the good stress, youknow, the things we actually
(09:36):
wanna go after, not theunhealthy stress, like, you
know, the, the lack of clarity,right?
Because that's a source ofchronic stress if we have a lack
of role clarity andresponsibilities.
But the good stress and thestress that keeps us at our
peak.
But also, you know, oftentimeswe're in that optimal state.
Okay, we can move into thatfatigue state.
(09:58):
So you mentioned like, what ifwe're tired?
Okay, we're tired, we know thatit's been a busy month, we've
achieved a lot of things.
What do we need to do toregulate so that we're not
staying at that level offatigue?
So it's a mastery of, of selfreally, when it comes to
managing stress in highperforming environments.
And it's really about thatself-awareness.
(10:19):
I mean, I'm doing this work foryears and I can hand on my
heart, say.
I'm not perfect either.
You know, I am constantlychecking in with myself,
constantly looking at, okay,where have I been?
Where have my stress levelsbeen?
Um, where am I on that zone, andwhat do I need to be able to
manage that stress?
So it's a constant conversationwith yourself first and
(10:41):
foremost.
MiIke Goldman (10:43):
Why do you believe it?
It impacts.
Female leaders more than maleleaders.
Shauna Moran (10:50):
So there's a couple of different reasons.
and I'm not saying men, youknow, male leaders don't feel
stressed.
We know that in general, burnoutis on the rise across all
demographics in the workplace.
But for female leaders, there'sunique challenges that, that
female leaders face.
Um, we know things like, youknow, the general bias or
(11:11):
microaggressions in theworkplace, the, the challenges
that women have in terms of,pay, in terms of promotions, in
terms of visibility within theworkplace.
We know that women are morelikely to take on DEI
initiatives and, uh,initiatives.
For their team in terms ofcoaching and mentorship.
So often there's, um, a, ahigher mental load, for women
(11:35):
in, in a couple of differentregards.
and also, you know, ourworkplaces were built, you know,
on a nine to five, oftentimesindustrial revolution, you know,
style, way of working that wascreated back then.
And, you know, for a lot ofwomen and the way that women
are, whether it's families orhome or.
All of these extraresponsibilities, you know, and
(11:58):
also the way that women arebiologically set up, right?
You have things like ourbiological systems, our cycles
that we work off, our energypeaks and dips at different
stages of the month.
We have things likeperimenopause, menopause.
So biologically we're different.
We have different needs.
and it's not to say, you know,we have to completely change our
workplaces, you know, to caterto that, but we need to be aware
(12:21):
of that.
And women primarily, how canthey be aware of those needs,
and how can we create some maleallyship around.
what it means to createequitable workplaces for women.
so they're just some of thereasons.
but you know, you have thingslike skills, and I see this a
lot with the women that I workwith, Mike.
You know, confidence, uh,executive presence, these are
(12:44):
all things that can be morechallenging for women, right?
Like we know that there's a lotof research that shows that, you
know, even if men meet, youknow, 80% of the job criteria or
70% of the job criteria, they'llapply for the role, versus a
woman will like.
No, I'm not gonna apply until Imeet a hundred percent, right?
So, there's often a lot, youknow, there's a difference in
(13:05):
mindset in how we approach andskills like being able to
advocate for ourselves, beingable to negotiate, be able to
master our executive presence,to really own our, or influence
in a way that's authentic.
These are the things that I'msupporting women with day in,
day out, so that they can feel.
Better in their leadership thatthey feel better to set those
(13:28):
healthy boundaries to advocatefor what they need.
Um, and oftentimes I'm workingwith high performers.
I'm always working with highperformers.
And high performers are actuallythe most likely to experience
workplace burnout, yet they hideit so well, which I'm sure
you've probably seen in yourwork, Mike, they hide it really,
really well because they justkeep on high performing and
(13:50):
nobody really knows thatthey're.
They're going through achallenge, right, or that they
need something else.
So it's often the case.
I'm working with women leadersand high performers as well,
MiIke Goldman (14:00):
Yeah.
It's interesting you say thatbecause one of.
one, one of the things I do withmy clients is help them assess
the performance.
I work with CEOs and leadershipteams and I help them assess the
performance of folks.
One, you know, a level downtheir direct reports, and I help
the CEO assess the performanceof folks on the leadership team.
And it's absolutely true thatthe.
(14:24):
Some of the recommended actionsfor the highest performers are
challenge them and increasetheir responsibility and, and
raise the bar on theirproductivity measures because
they're, you know, I, and I likeyour term, bore out instead of
burnout.
I've seen more superstars leaveout of boredom.
In places than anything else.
(14:44):
But that's a tough balancing actis when do you give your high
performance more, uh, when doyou give your high performers
more, you know, there's asaying, you know, if you want
anything done find the busiestperson and, and ask them to do
it.
But you know, as leaders, how dowe manage that fine line
(15:05):
between.
Well, yeah, our highestperformers wanna be challenged,
but how do we know when we'regiving them too much and kind of
tipping, tipping them over thathealthy, that health from the
healthy stress to the unhealthystress?
Shauna Moran (15:19):
yeah.
And I, I love that question andit's, what are we challenging
them with, first and foremost ismost important.
So I talk a lot about your, youknow, the zone of genius and
really what is it that we dothat brings the highest level of
satisfaction to us personally,but also the highest ROI to the
business.
Uh, to the team, to thedepartment, and that really is
(15:41):
what that zone of genius is.
And over the years, as we growas leaders and we develop and we
get promoted and we have moreexperience, our zone of genius
may change.
Right?
And I often see this with thefemale leaders I work with, is
that they got to a certain pointin their leadership because they
used to do it all and do it all.
Really well, they were themaster executor.
(16:02):
and that's what got them towhere they are.
But at a certain point ofleadership, it's not about
doing, it's about being thatvisionary.
It's about being that strategy.
It's about being that systemsoperator with your team and
delegating effectively andcoaching people up and creating
other leaders.
And there's an identity shiftthat comes with that too, you
(16:24):
know, and uh, that can bring upquite a lot for leaders.
But the zone of genius willchange then.
Well, what really is gonna bringyou satisfaction at this stage?
And that's the question that weneed to ask.
I worked with the VP recentlywho was in bore out and, you
know, had done so much over hercareer.
(16:45):
so much amazing impact.
And she said to me, oh, I just,I don't know where my
excitement's gone.
Super high performing, leader,and again, we worked on that
zone of genius.
We, we looked at, you know, whatis it that really lit her up
that got her to that optimalstate of stress?
And what was it that she, thatcompletely drained her, you
(17:06):
know, things that maybe she wasknown as an expert for.
But didn't bring her anysatisfaction, which is often the
case for high performers.
They'll keep doing those tasksbecause they're known for that,
and they're known for getting itdone, but they don't actually
like it and it completely drainsthem, so, so we identified that,
and then we identified, okay,what does your team look like
now if you're showing up in yourzone of genius?
(17:27):
80, 90, a hundred percent at thetime.
What does your team structurelook like?
So we completely revamped herteam structure.
And you know, in two sessionsshe came back to me and she
said, Shauna, I feel moreexcited and alive in my work
than I have done in years.
And you know, that's really, Isuppose, what high performers
need.
They need opportunities to stepback and to revisit who they are
(17:51):
now, what do they really want?
What lights them up?
'cause high performers are doingall the time.
I know.
'cause I am one.
So to have the space in acoaching, mentorship, and you
know, space like that toactually reflect on what do I
really want at this stage isabsolutely key.
MiIke Goldman (18:10):
So, so if we are within someone's zone of genius,
if we are within what, you know,people have natural strength at
what they, what they love to do,what adds value to the
organization?
There, there's gonna be, if I'mhearing it right, there's less
of a risk in burning someone outthere.
Now, of course, you can stilloverload someone with too much
(18:32):
work, but there's less of a riskin burning ourselves out or
others out if we're busy and inour zone of genius.
Shauna Moran (18:42):
Yeah.
It's the good busy, it's themeaningful work.
Meaningful work is so important,you know?
Are you getting outta bed in themorning excited about your day
ahead?
You know, in general.
Okay.
It's not to say every day is,you know.
is perfect.
There's going to be stress,there's gonna be challenge.
Within that, there's gonna befriction.
(19:02):
But in general, are youconnected to your values and to
your purpose?
And that's really theconversations that we need to be
having with our high performers.
What is it that lights them upthe most?
And if they can't do that themajority of the time, what's the
plan to get them there?
Like, and really honing in forleaders and conversations with
what's the work that's drainingyou the most?
(19:24):
And how do we create anambitious goal around that?
If you're still doing thatright, maybe it's you need to
get your team or your departmentto a certain level, and then we
can hire another resource andthen they can take that work
that drains you and you canfocus more on your zone of
genius.
Give a high performer that goaland they'll smash through it.
But you know, it's actuallyhaving those conversations and
(19:47):
then they can see that pathahead.
Then they can see this job, thiscompany, this role.
I can see my growth path ahead,you know?
And that's gonna fuel them.
MiIke Goldman (19:57):
What are as a leader, I, um, my brain is
fighting between twoperspectives.
like, you know, as a leader, youknow, dealing with your own, you
know, how do you prevent yourown burnout and deal with
burnout?
if you are, if you're living it,or you know, or your people.
And I guess what I'm gonna focuson, and maybe we could.
Find a way to cover both.
but as a leader, uh, if I've gota team of seven people working
(20:22):
for me, what are some signs thatI ought to be looking for to
make sure I'm not burningsomeone out on my team?
or, you know,'cause where I wantto go is like, what are the,
what are the signs to look forif someone is struggling in that
way?
And then as a leader.
(20:43):
What do I do about it?
and certainly you want toprevent it before it gets there.
But as a leader, what are somesigns I ought to be looking for
in members of my team to know ifthey are approaching or already
in burnout?
Shauna Moran (20:58):
yeah.
Great question.
So, at the start, I mentionedthat everyone shows and
demonstrates unhealthy stress ina different way.
So, you know, the first thing isyou wanna know your team, who
they are when they are.
You know their normal selveswhen they're feeling normal and
well, who are they?
How do they show up?
And anything that kind ofchanges from that, right?
(21:22):
So if you have someone that'squite optimistic or is very
social with the team, right?
They're in meetings, they shareideas, they share some
suggestions, they crack a fewjokes, and then all of a sudden
you notice this person isactually turning their video
camera off, or they're not asengaged, they're not sharing
ideas, and they're saying,what'd you do for the weekend?
I slept all weekend.
Right.
Those are indicators thatthere's something going on.
(21:44):
Now, it might not necessarilybe, you know, what you think.
We can't make assumptions inthis, right?
People's lives, you just don'tknow what's going on.
But it does mean that it's goodto have a conversation, right?
And this is why the investmentin trust, the investment in
giving your team, um, time isreally important.
So one-to-ones sounds so basic.
(22:06):
It sounds so simple, but it's soeffective.
If you're not having regularone-to-ones, you're not building
that trust and you're notchecking in on those potential
red flags or amber flags andactually saying, Hey, I noticed
Mike, you know, last week on ourtwo team meetings, you didn't
participate as you usually did.
What's going on?
(22:26):
You know, so being able to havethose conversations.
Openly in a safe environment isreally, really key.
And you know, I talk aboutone-to-ones that's a, a root
cause of unhealthy stress.
Mike, you know, if there's alack of quality support from
leaders.
That is going to be an unhealthystressor.
(22:47):
So by having your one-to-ones,you're doing a number of things.
You're building trust, butyou're also giving that quality
support on a regular basis,which is going to reduce the
stress.
And the other thing I'll add inhere is lack of role clarity,
which is a big one for teamsright now that are navigating a
lot of change, a lot ofuncertainty.
Things are changing all thetime.
(23:08):
And I mean, it's hard forleaders to even feel clear.
Let's be honest.
How do we provide clarity inambiguous environments?
And that's often done in aone-to-one as well.
And so that's why that time isso important.
So I think sign wise, looking atanything around disengagement,
around changes in personality,in levels of optimism, in levels
(23:33):
of social interaction, they're,that's all key to look out for.
and then what can you do aboutit?
So, you know, aside from thethings I've mentioned, number
one is have the conversation,you know, have the conversation
and say if you've noticedsomething, your intuition is so
important as well as the leader.
If you're feeling somethinglike, I mean, I had a team
(23:55):
member once and it was just areal felt sense.
She's a high performer.
She was doing her work.
But there was something missingin the way that she
communicated, in the way thatshe was showing up to calls,
couldn't quite put my finger onit.
And in her one-to-one I justsaid, Hey, I noticed X, Y, and
Z.
Like, what's going on?
And it was in relation to somehealth challenges that she was
(24:16):
having.
Right.
You know, nothing that, that wewere doing as a team, or I
wasn't doing as a leader.
But I'm so happy I asked thatquestion, right?
Because if I didn't, I couldstart making stories up
assumptions, and then we justdon't want that team
environment.
Environment, so let's connectadult to adult and actually, you
know, have those conversations,I think is key.
(24:36):
But then thinking about what arewe doing as a team, you know,
across role clarity, acrosssupport, you know, across things
like, Workloads and timelines,and this could nearly be a whole
podcast episode in itself, butyou know, when we look at things
like unmanageable workloads orunrealistic timelines, our
research is like, well, theseare sources of chronic stress.
(24:58):
If we continue to face this as ateam, as individuals, as
leaders, we're gonna experiencethat burnout.
But, you know, we're working atvery fast pace where we have
those ambitious goals.
So it's not about, you know,creating huge.
realistic timelines with lots ofspace or doing bare minimum
work, but it's about workingsmarter, not harder.
(25:20):
So looking at what are thethings we need to let go of if
we wanna achieve this bigtimeline and this big goal.
Right?
And, you know, what are thethings we're gonna floor?
What are the things we're gonnafocus on?
what are we as a team going todo to make sure that we're
creating these timelinesrealistically together?
So, yes, they're ambitious, butwe have the time for the
(25:42):
retrospective that's needed, oryou know, the wind down before
we start that next project.
or we are having regularconversations about
Reprioritization so that we'regetting the work done, we're
achieving those goals, but we'resomewhat grounded in.
Capacity in what?
In what's actually possible.
(26:02):
Right?
And I think that's that balancewhen we're a high performing
organization that we're really,that we're really working on.
It's not about not creating biggoals, but it's making sure that
we identify and we remove thefluff and that we get the whole
team focused.
and that we are creating rhythmsto the team that are needed.
(26:24):
So for example, like everyquarter.
I do, and my team, we do aFriday at the end of every
quarter where we just shut downfor the day.
Right?
I get, I'll go, my team areremote, they're all over the
place, but you know, I'll go dosomething for myself.
They'll do something for their,and we just completely switch
off.
As a way to just decompress,relax, reflect, and come back.
(26:45):
So what are those rhythms as ateam that support you in being
high performing?
Because it's not just a caseabout doing more and more and
more and more.
That doesn't work.
We know that doesn't work.
It's what's our strategy so thatwe can do our, that we can
ultimately do the best and goafter our goals and feel at our
best while doing it, becausethat how we feel directly ties
(27:08):
to what we do and how we do it.
And how effective we are.
MiIke Goldman (27:12):
I love you bringing up the idea of
one-on-one meetings, partiallybecause it's something I am
really focused on with myclients that they do that.
'cause so many, so many leaderssay, oh, I don't have time to
have weekly or biweekly,one-on-one meetings.
And frankly, even when they doit.
They just go through a laundry,laundry list of holding the
person accountable for a bunchof stuff.
(27:33):
It's not a real conversation.
But I think, you know, in mymind, I, you know, I go back to
your answer, to my firstquestion about what the
characteristic of a greatleadership team, and you said
openness and, and I, and havingthese regular one-on-one
meetings and making them trueconversations, not just, did you
do this?
(27:54):
Did you do this?
That seems to me to be a way tocreate that open relationship,
to give a person a chance, notjust to slow down the timeline
or take fluff out of thetimeline of a project, but give
a person a chance to say no.
And I think that's what a lot ofhigh performing folks don't do
(28:16):
or don't know how to do or areafraid to do, is to say, I know
you want me to do these fivethings.
I can get three of them done,which are the most important
because I need to say no to twoof them.
So help me decide what the mostimportant ones as opposed to,
okay, I'll get all five done.
(28:36):
And then they go home andthey're thinking, how the heck
am I gonna get that stuff done?
Shauna Moran (28:40):
yeah.
And then they'll do it andyou'll think, oh, that person's
great.
MiIke Goldman (28:44):
Yeah.
Aren't they amazing?
Yeah.
Shauna Moran (28:47):
that's the, you know, I often call that the
leadership constriction trap.
You know, as high performers, weoften fall into that because as
we evolve and we get promoted,we take on more responsibility,
and we keep saying yes, yes,yes, yes.
And then we become constricted.
It's this trap right where we,we've just taken on all this
responsibility and all thisstress, so, you know, I love
(29:10):
that you know what you've said.
If for me to say yes to this, Ineed to say no to.
Whatever that is.
And those alignment check-inslike that, clarity is key.
You know, and I'll often, I'lloften, um, work, you know,
especially with female leaderswhen I work with them, you know,
they'll say, Shauna, things areunmanageable for me right now.
Like, I have so many thingsgoing on.
There's too many priorities.
(29:31):
I can't keep up.
I should be able to keep up.
And they'll tell themselves thatstory, you know, and worry about
it.
I said, let's get everythingonto paper, let's get some data
behind it, some metrics behindwhat you're doing.
Let's look at what needs to beprioritized and what your
capacity actually is.
And oftentimes when we do thatmapping, you'll find things
like, you know, there's an extra30 hours of work that week
(29:53):
that's needed, where's thatgonna come from an already 50
hour work week?
but what we have there is wehave data, and when we have
data, we can build a case and wecan effectively advocate for
ourselves.
So we can say things like.
Look, this is the reality of thesituation.
Hey, leader or CEO or whatever.
here's the reality of thesituation.
(30:14):
What do I need to prioritize?
and as a result, I'll need todeprioritize this.
What's our plan of action to beable to either be okay with this
and floor it for now or toreshuffle it somewhere else?
Um, and what's our plan longterm to make sure that all of
this work can get done if it'sall important, so we can start
to have really open.
(30:35):
Fruitful resource decisions asopposed to those high performers
stuck in that leadershipconstriction trap, feeling like
they're having to figure it allout themselves.
MiIke Goldman (30:47):
So, so shifting from if I'm a leader, what do I
need to do with and for, youknow, my team to, to handle
this?
let's say I am a senior leader,and I'll go even further.
Let's say I'm the CEO.
So it all comes down to me and Iam feeling anxiety and I'm not
(31:10):
sleeping, and all of a suddenI'm just, my optimism is gone
and I don't think things aregonna work out, and there's no
way out.
And it all comes down to me.
What am I gonna do?
you know, so if I'm a leader andI'm feeling that way, and
obviously if I'm feeling thatway, even if I try to hide it,
that's gonna start.
(31:30):
Infecting my team and I don'tknow if I like that word, but
I'll use it.
It's gonna start infecting myteam if I'm a leader and you
know, I can't go up to who I'mreporting to because it's me.
what do I do as a leader to getto, to try to work myself out of
(31:51):
that burnout situation?
Shauna Moran (31:53):
Yeah.
I love that you've asked thisquestion because that is the
reality for a lot of seniorleaders, right?
And you know, they often don'thave the spaces to say that out
loud to anyone, you know?
So I think it's important theycan hear this conversation.
And if that resonates, I wouldsay the first thing to do is to
(32:15):
build a support system.
And I'm on, not on about yoursenior leadership team or your
executive team.
I'm on about a support systemfor you, whether that is a
coach, a mentor, a businessadvisor, a therapist, you know,
it could be a breath workfacilitator.
Right, but like whatever thatis, what is your support system,
(32:38):
those trusted advisors that cansupport you from a mental,
physical, and emotional leveland perspective, right?
So thinking about all of thoselenses, who are those experts
that you can bring in and payoftentimes to have as your
support system?
So I always say strong leadersneed strong support systems.
(33:00):
So what does that look likeright now and where are some of
those gaps?
and I think that's really keyfrom that foundation.
You know, you're not gonna beable to think your way into
clarity if you're, if you'rethat dysregulated, you know?
it can be hard to see thingsclearly.
It can be hard to make decisionswhen you're in those states of
chronic stress.
(33:20):
So it really is about how do Ilearn how to regulate my system?
And we can't really think ourway into regulation.
Right.
Like we, we have to kind ofpractice our way into that.
You know, we, whether it'sthrough breath work or physical
activity or been able todecompress, coming out with that
(33:41):
fight or flight mode, right?
So that's where the nervoussystem work really comes in.
And what is it that can anchorus.
going back to basics, sleep,nutrition, water intake.
What are your coping mechanisms?
Are they healthy?
Or are you reaching for a beerat the end of the day?
Right?
No judgment, but like how canyou find those healthier coping
(34:02):
mechanisms from that place?
Then you can start to thinkabout, okay, now I feel
regulated in myself.
I feel a bit better.
I know things have to change.
I haven't solved everything, butI'm clearer.
And I'm more grounded andcentered, and from there I can
start to have conversations withmy coach, my mentor, my business
advisors, whatever that is, tostart to understand what's my
(34:24):
zone of genius and what do Ineed to hand off or create
around me so that I can spend mytime there.
In a realistic way, and buildout that strategy.
And, you know, hopefully there'ssome immediate wins and
immediate things you can handover.
and then there's probably gonnabe a plan of action there of,
okay, you know, I'm focusedprimarily on X and Y and Z needs
(34:48):
to be delegated.
Right?
And, and we don't have thatperson in place, so that becomes
your priority.
but I think the most importantthing is to not isolate yourself
in that reach out.
Yeah, reach out to someone.
you're not alone in it, youknow, and it's often the weight,
it feels heavier when we carryit alone.
And it's probably not somethingyou feel maybe comfortable
(35:09):
sharing with your executive teamor your senior leaders.
'cause you want, you know, youwant to be something for them
and, and, you know, that levelof vulnerability can feel quite
raw still.
I know those feelings, you know,so who can you place around you?
That you trust that you can leanon and that can support you in
remembering who you really are.
MiIke Goldman (35:30):
So for the individual listening leader,
non-leader, this point doesn'tmatter.
Whoever, if there's someonelistening that is in the midst
of it, they are feeling burn andyou know, I don't know, where
burnout ends and depressionbegins, or if they kind of
overlap.
But you know, some of us havebeen there where it's this.
(35:51):
It could wind up with thisfeeling of overwhelm where
something as little as, oh myGod, I have to do the laundry
now on top of everything elseI've got, or I've gotta go empty
the dish.
Like the littlest things couldfeel so overwhelming if people
are, are, you know, at thatstage they're burnt out, they're
overwhelmed.
You, Shauna, you brought up awhole bunch of great strategies
(36:14):
there.
but what's one thing, you knowfor someone listening now that's
feeling that way and they areoverwhelmed?
So going out and taking, youknow, 12 different steps to fix
it is something that soundscrazy to them.
They're not gonna go do it.
what's the first thing?
what's something they can dowhen they're done listening to
this?
So they could stop right now andput us on pause and do it.
(36:36):
what's one thing someone coulddo to just take a first step?
Shauna Moran (36:41):
Breathe.
Do it right now.
Right, like, feel your bodywherever you are, whether you're
sitting, whether you'restanding, whether you're
walking.
Feel your body, feel your feeton the floor.
Exhale and breathe.
Breathe in through the nose,really in, in, you know,
elongate that inhale.
Hold at the top and really letthat exhale.
(37:03):
Go with the sigh and justbreathe the breath.
And this is why.
I'm a breathwork facilitatorbecause the breadth is, I
believe, one of our fastest waysto a state of regulation.
And you know, the breadth hassupported me so much down
(37:24):
through the years.
I found it because I came out ofa really bad car accident and I
had really bad PTSD and Icouldn't get out of that fear
that I was in, from thataccident.
Accident.
And it was the breath, learninghow to breathe deeply, how to
regulate using your breath, thatactually really shifted
everything for me, and it stilldoes to this day, right?
(37:46):
Like it's always there.
It's our own medicine that.
We can access at any time.
We can do it in a meeting, Mike.
We can do it right now whilewe're listening to this podcast.
We can do it when we're driving.
what would it take for you totake 4, 5, 6 deep breaths?
You know, and notice then howyou feel.
And, you know, those are inthose micro moments, but to
(38:09):
build that relationship withyour breath is.
Is so powerful.
You know, there's, there's lotsof different methodologies and
tools like conscious connectedbreath work, Wim Hof Method.
There's so many things outthere, but they're all saying
the same thing.
You know, the breath is apowerful way for you to come
back to your center.
So that's the first thing Iwould recommend is.
(38:31):
To really connect with thebreath, because oftentimes it
can feel, you know, when we'reat that level of stress, it can
be, it can feel difficult to dothings like a meditation because
the mind is just go, go, go, go.
You know, I've been theremyself, and that's why the
breath is an act ofparticipation.
So for, you know, there's amovement to it.
So, sit on the ground, lie onthe ground, connect to your
(38:51):
breath, put on some music, andjust allow yourself to be for a
moment.
You know, and, and sometimesthat can bring uncomfortable
feelings up as well.
It's not all easy, right?
Like oftentimes it's like, oh,it's, it feels, it feels hard to
pause.
It feels unsafe to slow down.
So there's often reminders thatwe might need, you know, as we
(39:12):
start to kind of slow ourselvesdown.
And, and the big thing is, Ialways say, collect your own
data.
You know, like I collected myown data.
At, uh, before I went for my, myquarterly break last week where
I took that day offline and Iwas feeling okay, like I was
feeling pretty good, but I, youknow, measured myself on my
(39:33):
mental clarity, my physicalenergy, my emotional state, and
my spiritual connection and, youknow, they were scoring okay.
Uh, before the, the day off.
And then after when I came home,I re-did it and it was all a
hun.
Like it was all 90, a hundredpercent.
It was a massive shift.
So collect your own data is whatI'll say.
(39:55):
Don't just listen to me assomeone, you know, sharing.
You should do this and youshould do that.
Everyone is different.
Learn more about yourself.
Collect your own data as to whatactually works for you.
and that's really where thatmaster fullness comes in and
been able to manage stress.
MiIke Goldman (40:12):
Shauna, who as we, we start to kind of wrap up
the conversation, tell me alittle bit about who your.
Clients, are you working withleaders to create cultures to
prevent or deal with some ofthis?
Are you working with individualswho are feeling some of this?
who are your clients and andwhat kinds of work do you do
(40:34):
with them?
Shauna Moran (40:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great question.
So there's, there's two kind ofmain, programs that I offer.
So the first one is for growthorientated women in leadership
positions, and that program thatI have is called the Impact
Amplification Program.
So that's for women that.
You know, want to grow, want toget to the next stage of their
leadership, but know that thingshave to change in order for them
(40:57):
to get there.
Maybe it's their confidence,maybe it's their skills, maybe
it's their executive presence.
They want to, you know, becomethe best version of themselves
as leaders and really take theirteam and their organization to
the next level.
And that program is, you know, acombination of all the things I
needed, Mike, when I was.
You know, working my way up, asa leader.
So there's, you know, I'm anexecutive coach.
(41:18):
There's mentoring, there's groupand community, there's, you
know, self-serve trainings andleadership development tools and
frameworks.
Um, we do things like our annualin-person retreat where we bring
female leaders together inperson, in the program.
And we do meditations and breathwork and saunas and, you know,
we plan our vision for the year.
(41:40):
And it's just a really, Not justnourishing, but thriving en
environment and community.
And I'm, I'm really grateful forthat.
And, and we're constantlybuilding it.
You know, we, we see thingslike, uh, 95% retention rate for
female leaders that are in theprogram, so they'll stay with
their companies.
We see on average a 40%reduction in burnout within
(42:02):
female leaders in 90 days ofjoining the program.
And we see an 85% promotion.
rate for female leaders within18 months of joining the the
program.
So even if there's any CEOs outthere that are listening to this
that have high performing femaleleaders.
Invest in them, sponsor them tobe in a container like this and
you know, the results will payoff tenfold.
(42:24):
So that's one piece of the workI do.
And the other piece of work Ido, Mike then is working with,
um, growth stage, medium sized,small to medium sized
businesses.
And that really is more on thatstrategic consulting, really
supporting them and been able toachieve that next level of
growth with their peoplestrategy and their leadership
strategy locked in.
and again, bringing in.
(42:44):
All the work I've done over theyears, the coaching, the
advising, the mentorship, thesystemic team coaching, all of
those things are in there.
But ultimately, you know, it'sworking with, with those
companies to get to the nextstage and often unburden that
executive team, so that they canfocus on their own genius.
MiIke Goldman (43:03):
Beautiful.
And if someone wants to find outmore about you and all those
services, where, where's thebest place for them to go?
Shauna Moran (43:11):
You can head to my website, www.shaunamoran.com and
uh, you can email our team it'sinfo@shaunamoran.com.
MiIke Goldman (43:20):
And by the way, mourn is M-O-R-A-N.
Shauna Moran (43:23):
Yes, correct.
MiIke Goldman (43:25):
had to make sure I pronounced it right, be before
we started, but I want to makesure people know how to spell
it.
Shauna Moran (43:31):
yeah.
No, I appreciate that, that, uh,my Irish accent always, uh,
gives me a hard time with theletter as I pronounce it or,
but, uh, you know, you guyspronounce it r so,
MiIke Goldman (43:44):
And I'm sure we do it wrong, but that's okay.
Well, Shauna, this, this wasfantastic.
Thanks so much.
Uh, super helpful to leaders outthere.
Who wanna make sure they arebuilding the right culture for
their teams, or they're dealingand, or they're dealing with
some, some of these, uh,stresses themselves.
(44:05):
I always say if you want a greatcompany, you need a great
leadership team.
Shauna, thanks for helping usget there today.
Shauna Moran (44:11):
Yeah.
Thank you, Mike.
Thanks for holding space forthese amazing conversations and
for asking such great questions.
Really appreciate the meaningfulconversation.
MiIke Goldman (44:20):
great having you on.
And high performers are actually the most
likely to experience workplaceburnout, yet they hide it so
well, which I'm sure you'veprobably seen in your work,
Mike, they hide it really,really well because they just
keep on high performing andnobody really knows that
they're.
They're going through achallenge, right, or that they
need something else.
So it's often the case.
I'm working with women leadersand high performers as well,
Mike Goldman (00:31):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the
(00:51):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
MiIke Goldman (01:05):
Shauna Moran award-winning women's leadership
coach, burnout preventionspecialist, international
keynote speaker, publishedauthor and breathwork
facilitator.
In a world where leadership andwellbeing, or essential, Shauna
stands out by delivering sciencebacked strategies and deeply
human insight.
(01:26):
That go beyond surface levelsolutions, a sought after
speaker.
She empowers leaders andorganizations to build
resilient, high performingcultures where people and
profits thrive.
Shauna inspires lastingtransformation through practical
tools, compelling stories, and apowerful mission to advance
women's leadership and preventburnout in today's demanding.
(01:50):
Professional landscape.
And today we're gonna talk aboutboth those things, burnout and
women's leadership.
Shauna, welcome to the show.
Shauna Moran (01:58):
Thanks for having me, Mike.
It's great to be here.
MiIke Goldman (02:02):
So my first question, as always is, Shauna,
from all of your experience,what do you believe is the one
most important characteristic ofa great leadership team?
Shauna Moran (02:13):
Great question.
I'm sure many people comment onthat because it really gets.
You're thinking, and I'm betweentwo things.
Number one, an openness.
Are we open as a leadership teamto trying new things to hearing
alternative perspectives?
Are we open to suspending ourown judgments, our own ego?
(02:37):
So that we can manage change,uncertainty, all of those
things.
So I think openness is reallykey on a leadership team.
How do we, how do we get to aplace where we're continually
open and we're not just stuck inthe old ways of doing things or
in the old thinking?
And you know, oftentimes whenwe're introducing new thinking,
resistance can come up.
So what are we doing to remainopen as a leadership team?
(02:58):
So I think that's number one.
And the second thing I think isreally important if we want to
be open is respect.
You know, how do we show up withrespect, for each other as we
challenge the hard things andtalk about the hard things?
We need that undercurrent andthat foundation of respect.
MiIke Goldman (03:17):
Yeah.
And I'm gonna allow you cheatingand answering two things because
they're related to each other.
So, Shauna, I'm gonna, I'm gonnaallow it, although you, you
tried to cheat from the firstquestion.
No, but I, I love that.
and what I've seen interested inyour experience with this, with
the openness and the respect,more than anything I have seen
(03:38):
that needs to be modeled fromthe very top, from the CEO.
If the CEO is not open to newideas, if they shut people down,
if they don't, if they're notcurious about other people's
ideas, if they don't showrespect for other people's
ideas, that tends to cascadedown through the rest of the
team.
Shauna Moran (03:58):
Absolutely it does.
MiIke Goldman (04:01):
So, Shauna, why did you decide we're gonna focus
on burnout, and women'sleadership and, um, I'm sure
there's some tie between thetwo, uh, or, or maybe you'll
tell me there's not, but why didyou decide, in your practice, in
your business, why did youdecide to focus on those topics
in particular?
Shauna Moran (04:21):
In a way, Mike, it wasn't really a decision, it was
more of a calling, as cliche asthat might, may sound, my life
path is often about having.
Big experiences and been able toturn those experiences and, and
often that pain into wisdom andto share that and to be able to,
(04:42):
to show up for others in, inthose ways.
So it started with my own story.
being a, a female leader in acorporate environment over the
years and working my way up, Ithought that, you know, that
there was really.
Something wrong with me when Ihad burnt out three times by the
age of 28.
Um, uh, so I had my ownexperiences, my own challenges
(05:04):
with that.
Um, I burnt out.
What I realized from my researchis for many different reasons,
every single time I burnt out,it was because of a different
root cause.
and when I left my corporatejob, I started my own business.
I was consulting primarily foragencies and tech companies.
Um, I used to work with Shopify,so that's where my background is
(05:25):
in tech and e-commerce andbusiness strategy.
And quite quickly I realized inthose advisory and consultancy
services that, oh, it's not justme that experienced.
That burnout actually stress andworkplace stress is a common
problem I'm seeing amongst allleadership teams and all
organizations, and what I reallyfound was that nobody was
(05:51):
actually solving the problem.
It was all surface levelsolutions.
That we're focused on theindividual and leaving out that
systemic lens of what do we needto do as an organization to
ensure that our systems, ourprocesses, our culture and our
skills support sustainablewellbeing as we grow.
So my curious mind led me downthe path of research and I ended
(06:14):
up writing a book in 2021 calledManaging Employee Burnout, how
to, Retain and Engage.
Teams without stress.
And through that research, Mike,I found out that it was women in
the workplace that women inleadership positions in
particular, that were thehighest demographic to
(06:34):
experience workplace burnout.
And I mean, I could see that inmy work as well, but to actually
see the data on that, andthankfully now we actually have
a lot more data on that.
Um, you know, we know that onein three women.
in leadership positions considerleaving their role due to
workplace stress.
we know that McKinsey found in2021, 52% of female leaders,
(06:55):
have experienced or reportfeeling burnt out in their role.
So, the, the women's work was,um, a result of that research
and I became really passionateabout, I'm always passionate
about.
You know, getting women intoleadership positions, I've, you
know, it's, it's so important,but how do we get them to
actually thrive, not justsurvive in those leadership
(07:17):
positions?
And that's where my work comesin with women leaders.
MiIke Goldman (07:21):
I definitely wanna come back to.
Your thoughts on why womenexperience it more often, uh,
that that's, you know, obviouslycurious about that.
but before I ask you thatquestion, I wanna rewind a
little bit in talking aboutburnout.
You know, how do you defineburnout and how do we know if we
(07:43):
or someone is burnt out or justtired or just frustrated?
how do you define it?
Shauna Moran (07:48):
Yeah, well really when we're talking about
burnout, we're talking about,you know, a chronic state of
stress that's going on for along time.
So we're not gonna get burnt outafter a busy week, a busy month,
not even after a busy quarter.
But if we are exposed to thosechronic stressors on the job
over and over and over and overagain, where we're not able to
(08:11):
regulate our system and actuallymanage that stress effectively,
that's where we can start tofall into what's known as
burnout.
There's actually five stages toburnout.
So, you know, there's, you know,the optimism phase where we're
feeling very optimistic and wecan manage the stress.
And again, if.
The chronic stress or whatever'scausing the stress, and it could
(08:31):
be a couple of different things.
If they don't change or improve,we start to move down into
different stages of burnout,where we may feel things like
more anxiety, sleep issues,more, um, less of a, an
optimistic mindset.
social withdrawal can be a bigthing.
But the thing is, Mike, youknow, everybody experiences and,
(08:51):
and shows stress in differentways, right?
For some of us it's veryemotional.
For some of us it's physical.
For some of us it's morecognitive.
We struggle to make decisions.
so we're all so different, andYou know, I think that the big
thing is, you know, we'realways, we're going to be
exposed to stress.
That's the world that we livein.
And not all stress is badstress.
you know, we talk about healthystress and unhealthy stress.
(09:14):
You know, healthy stress is thatbig ambitious goal.
Let's go.
We're pumped, we're excitedabout it.
We reduce stress too much.
We're gonna get bored.
We call it bore out, right?
So we have to find that optimalzone as an organization, as
leaders, as a leadership teamwithin our teams.
What is that?
What is that optimal zone wherewe have the right amount of
stress, the good stress, youknow, the things we actually
(09:36):
wanna go after, not theunhealthy stress, like, you
know, the, the lack of clarity,right?
Because that's a source ofchronic stress if we have a lack
of role clarity andresponsibilities.
But the good stress and thestress that keeps us at our
peak.
But also, you know, oftentimeswe're in that optimal state.
Okay, we can move into thatfatigue state.
(09:58):
So you mentioned like, what ifwe're tired?
Okay, we're tired, we know thatit's been a busy month, we've
achieved a lot of things.
What do we need to do toregulate so that we're not
staying at that level offatigue?
So it's a mastery of, of selfreally, when it comes to
managing stress in highperforming environments.
And it's really about thatself-awareness.
(10:19):
I mean, I'm doing this work foryears and I can hand on my
heart, say.
I'm not perfect either.
You know, I am constantlychecking in with myself,
constantly looking at, okay,where have I been?
Where have my stress levelsbeen?
Um, where am I on that zone, andwhat do I need to be able to
manage that stress?
So it's a constant conversationwith yourself first and
(10:41):
foremost.
MiIke Goldman (10:43):
Why do you believe it?
It impacts.
Female leaders more than maleleaders.
Shauna Moran (10:50):
So there's a couple of different reasons.
and I'm not saying men, youknow, male leaders don't feel
stressed.
We know that in general, burnoutis on the rise across all
demographics in the workplace.
But for female leaders, there'sunique challenges that, that
female leaders face.
Um, we know things like, youknow, the general bias or
(11:11):
microaggressions in theworkplace, the, the challenges
that women have in terms of,pay, in terms of promotions, in
terms of visibility within theworkplace.
We know that women are morelikely to take on DEI
initiatives and, uh,initiatives.
For their team in terms ofcoaching and mentorship.
So often there's, um, a, ahigher mental load, for women
(11:35):
in, in a couple of differentregards.
and also, you know, ourworkplaces were built, you know,
on a nine to five, oftentimesindustrial revolution, you know,
style, way of working that wascreated back then.
And, you know, for a lot ofwomen and the way that women
are, whether it's families orhome or.
All of these extraresponsibilities, you know, and
(11:58):
also the way that women arebiologically set up, right?
You have things like ourbiological systems, our cycles
that we work off, our energypeaks and dips at different
stages of the month.
We have things likeperimenopause, menopause.
So biologically we're different.
We have different needs.
and it's not to say, you know,we have to completely change our
workplaces, you know, to caterto that, but we need to be aware
(12:21):
of that.
And women primarily, how canthey be aware of those needs,
and how can we create some maleallyship around.
what it means to createequitable workplaces for women.
so they're just some of thereasons.
but you know, you have thingslike skills, and I see this a
lot with the women that I workwith, Mike.
You know, confidence, uh,executive presence, these are
(12:44):
all things that can be morechallenging for women, right?
Like we know that there's a lotof research that shows that, you
know, even if men meet, youknow, 80% of the job criteria or
70% of the job criteria, they'llapply for the role, versus a
woman will like.
No, I'm not gonna apply until Imeet a hundred percent, right?
So, there's often a lot, youknow, there's a difference in
(13:05):
mindset in how we approach andskills like being able to
advocate for ourselves, beingable to negotiate, be able to
master our executive presence,to really own our, or influence
in a way that's authentic.
These are the things that I'msupporting women with day in,
day out, so that they can feel.
Better in their leadership thatthey feel better to set those
(13:28):
healthy boundaries to advocatefor what they need.
Um, and oftentimes I'm workingwith high performers.
I'm always working with highperformers.
And high performers are actuallythe most likely to experience
workplace burnout, yet they hideit so well, which I'm sure
you've probably seen in yourwork, Mike, they hide it really,
really well because they justkeep on high performing and
(13:50):
nobody really knows thatthey're.
They're going through achallenge, right, or that they
need something else.
So it's often the case.
I'm working with women leadersand high performers as well,
MiIke Goldman (14:00):
Yeah.
It's interesting you say thatbecause one of.
one, one of the things I do withmy clients is help them assess
the performance.
I work with CEOs and leadershipteams and I help them assess the
performance of folks.
One, you know, a level downtheir direct reports, and I help
the CEO assess the performanceof folks on the leadership team.
And it's absolutely true thatthe.
(14:24):
Some of the recommended actionsfor the highest performers are
challenge them and increasetheir responsibility and, and
raise the bar on theirproductivity measures because
they're, you know, I, and I likeyour term, bore out instead of
burnout.
I've seen more superstars leaveout of boredom.
In places than anything else.
(14:44):
But that's a tough balancing actis when do you give your high
performance more, uh, when doyou give your high performers
more, you know, there's asaying, you know, if you want
anything done find the busiestperson and, and ask them to do
it.
But you know, as leaders, how dowe manage that fine line
(15:05):
between.
Well, yeah, our highestperformers wanna be challenged,
but how do we know when we'regiving them too much and kind of
tipping, tipping them over thathealthy, that health from the
healthy stress to the unhealthystress?
Shauna Moran (15:19):
yeah.
And I, I love that question andit's, what are we challenging
them with, first and foremost ismost important.
So I talk a lot about your, youknow, the zone of genius and
really what is it that we dothat brings the highest level of
satisfaction to us personally,but also the highest ROI to the
business.
Uh, to the team, to thedepartment, and that really is
(15:41):
what that zone of genius is.
And over the years, as we growas leaders and we develop and we
get promoted and we have moreexperience, our zone of genius
may change.
Right?
And I often see this with thefemale leaders I work with, is
that they got to a certain pointin their leadership because they
used to do it all and do it all.
Really well, they were themaster executor.
(16:02):
and that's what got them towhere they are.
But at a certain point ofleadership, it's not about
doing, it's about being thatvisionary.
It's about being that strategy.
It's about being that systemsoperator with your team and
delegating effectively andcoaching people up and creating
other leaders.
And there's an identity shiftthat comes with that too, you
(16:24):
know, and uh, that can bring upquite a lot for leaders.
But the zone of genius willchange then.
Well, what really is gonna bringyou satisfaction at this stage?
And that's the question that weneed to ask.
I worked with the VP recentlywho was in bore out and, you
know, had done so much over hercareer.
(16:45):
so much amazing impact.
And she said to me, oh, I just,I don't know where my
excitement's gone.
Super high performing, leader,and again, we worked on that
zone of genius.
We, we looked at, you know, whatis it that really lit her up
that got her to that optimalstate of stress?
And what was it that she, thatcompletely drained her, you
(17:06):
know, things that maybe she wasknown as an expert for.
But didn't bring her anysatisfaction, which is often the
case for high performers.
They'll keep doing those tasksbecause they're known for that,
and they're known for getting itdone, but they don't actually
like it and it completely drainsthem, so, so we identified that,
and then we identified, okay,what does your team look like
now if you're showing up in yourzone of genius?
(17:27):
80, 90, a hundred percent at thetime.
What does your team structurelook like?
So we completely revamped herteam structure.
And you know, in two sessionsshe came back to me and she
said, Shauna, I feel moreexcited and alive in my work
than I have done in years.
And you know, that's really, Isuppose, what high performers
need.
They need opportunities to stepback and to revisit who they are
(17:51):
now, what do they really want?
What lights them up?
'cause high performers are doingall the time.
I know.
'cause I am one.
So to have the space in acoaching, mentorship, and you
know, space like that toactually reflect on what do I
really want at this stage isabsolutely key.
MiIke Goldman (18:10):
So, so if we are within someone's zone of genius,
if we are within what, you know,people have natural strength at
what they, what they love to do,what adds value to the
organization?
There, there's gonna be, if I'mhearing it right, there's less
of a risk in burning someone outthere.
Now, of course, you can stilloverload someone with too much
(18:32):
work, but there's less of a riskin burning ourselves out or
others out if we're busy and inour zone of genius.
Shauna Moran (18:42):
Yeah.
It's the good busy, it's themeaningful work.
Meaningful work is so important,you know?
Are you getting outta bed in themorning excited about your day
ahead?
You know, in general.
Okay.
It's not to say every day is,you know.
is perfect.
There's going to be stress,there's gonna be challenge.
Within that, there's gonna befriction.
(19:02):
But in general, are youconnected to your values and to
your purpose?
And that's really theconversations that we need to be
having with our high performers.
What is it that lights them upthe most?
And if they can't do that themajority of the time, what's the
plan to get them there?
Like, and really honing in forleaders and conversations with
what's the work that's drainingyou the most?
(19:24):
And how do we create anambitious goal around that?
If you're still doing thatright, maybe it's you need to
get your team or your departmentto a certain level, and then we
can hire another resource andthen they can take that work
that drains you and you canfocus more on your zone of
genius.
Give a high performer that goaland they'll smash through it.
But you know, it's actuallyhaving those conversations and
(19:47):
then they can see that pathahead.
Then they can see this job, thiscompany, this role.
I can see my growth path ahead,you know?
And that's gonna fuel them.
MiIke Goldman (19:57):
What are as a leader, I, um, my brain is
fighting between twoperspectives.
like, you know, as a leader, youknow, dealing with your own, you
know, how do you prevent yourown burnout and deal with
burnout?
if you are, if you're living it,or you know, or your people.
And I guess what I'm gonna focuson, and maybe we could.
Find a way to cover both.
but as a leader, uh, if I've gota team of seven people working
(20:22):
for me, what are some signs thatI ought to be looking for to
make sure I'm not burningsomeone out on my team?
or, you know,'cause where I wantto go is like, what are the,
what are the signs to look forif someone is struggling in that
way?
And then as a leader.
(20:43):
What do I do about it?
and certainly you want toprevent it before it gets there.
But as a leader, what are somesigns I ought to be looking for
in members of my team to know ifthey are approaching or already
in burnout?
Shauna Moran (20:58):
yeah.
Great question.
So, at the start, I mentionedthat everyone shows and
demonstrates unhealthy stress ina different way.
So, you know, the first thing isyou wanna know your team, who
they are when they are.
You know their normal selveswhen they're feeling normal and
well, who are they?
How do they show up?
And anything that kind ofchanges from that, right?
(21:22):
So if you have someone that'squite optimistic or is very
social with the team, right?
They're in meetings, they shareideas, they share some
suggestions, they crack a fewjokes, and then all of a sudden
you notice this person isactually turning their video
camera off, or they're not asengaged, they're not sharing
ideas, and they're saying,what'd you do for the weekend?
I slept all weekend.
Right.
Those are indicators thatthere's something going on.
(21:44):
Now, it might not necessarilybe, you know, what you think.
We can't make assumptions inthis, right?
People's lives, you just don'tknow what's going on.
But it does mean that it's goodto have a conversation, right?
And this is why the investmentin trust, the investment in
giving your team, um, time isreally important.
So one-to-ones sounds so basic.
(22:06):
It sounds so simple, but it's soeffective.
If you're not having regularone-to-ones, you're not building
that trust and you're notchecking in on those potential
red flags or amber flags andactually saying, Hey, I noticed
Mike, you know, last week on ourtwo team meetings, you didn't
participate as you usually did.
What's going on?
(22:26):
You know, so being able to havethose conversations.
Openly in a safe environment isreally, really key.
And you know, I talk aboutone-to-ones that's a, a root
cause of unhealthy stress.
Mike, you know, if there's alack of quality support from
leaders.
That is going to be an unhealthystressor.
(22:47):
So by having your one-to-ones,you're doing a number of things.
You're building trust, butyou're also giving that quality
support on a regular basis,which is going to reduce the
stress.
And the other thing I'll add inhere is lack of role clarity,
which is a big one for teamsright now that are navigating a
lot of change, a lot ofuncertainty.
Things are changing all thetime.
(23:08):
And I mean, it's hard forleaders to even feel clear.
Let's be honest.
How do we provide clarity inambiguous environments?
And that's often done in aone-to-one as well.
And so that's why that time isso important.
So I think sign wise, looking atanything around disengagement,
around changes in personality,in levels of optimism, in levels
(23:33):
of social interaction, they're,that's all key to look out for.
and then what can you do aboutit?
So, you know, aside from thethings I've mentioned, number
one is have the conversation,you know, have the conversation
and say if you've noticedsomething, your intuition is so
important as well as the leader.
If you're feeling somethinglike, I mean, I had a team
(23:55):
member once and it was just areal felt sense.
She's a high performer.
She was doing her work.
But there was something missingin the way that she
communicated, in the way thatshe was showing up to calls,
couldn't quite put my finger onit.
And in her one-to-one I justsaid, Hey, I noticed X, Y, and
Z.
Like, what's going on?
And it was in relation to somehealth challenges that she was
(24:16):
having.
Right.
You know, nothing that, that wewere doing as a team, or I
wasn't doing as a leader.
But I'm so happy I asked thatquestion, right?
Because if I didn't, I couldstart making stories up
assumptions, and then we justdon't want that team
environment.
Environment, so let's connectadult to adult and actually, you
know, have those conversations,I think is key.
(24:36):
But then thinking about what arewe doing as a team, you know,
across role clarity, acrosssupport, you know, across things
like, Workloads and timelines,and this could nearly be a whole
podcast episode in itself, butyou know, when we look at things
like unmanageable workloads orunrealistic timelines, our
research is like, well, theseare sources of chronic stress.
(24:58):
If we continue to face this as ateam, as individuals, as
leaders, we're gonna experiencethat burnout.
But, you know, we're working atvery fast pace where we have
those ambitious goals.
So it's not about, you know,creating huge.
realistic timelines with lots ofspace or doing bare minimum
work, but it's about workingsmarter, not harder.
(25:20):
So looking at what are thethings we need to let go of if
we wanna achieve this bigtimeline and this big goal.
Right?
And, you know, what are thethings we're gonna floor?
What are the things we're gonnafocus on?
what are we as a team going todo to make sure that we're
creating these timelinesrealistically together?
So, yes, they're ambitious, butwe have the time for the
(25:42):
retrospective that's needed, oryou know, the wind down before
we start that next project.
or we are having regularconversations about
Reprioritization so that we'regetting the work done, we're
achieving those goals, but we'resomewhat grounded in.
Capacity in what?
In what's actually possible.
(26:02):
Right?
And I think that's that balancewhen we're a high performing
organization that we're really,that we're really working on.
It's not about not creating biggoals, but it's making sure that
we identify and we remove thefluff and that we get the whole
team focused.
and that we are creating rhythmsto the team that are needed.
(26:24):
So for example, like everyquarter.
I do, and my team, we do aFriday at the end of every
quarter where we just shut downfor the day.
Right?
I get, I'll go, my team areremote, they're all over the
place, but you know, I'll go dosomething for myself.
They'll do something for their,and we just completely switch
off.
As a way to just decompress,relax, reflect, and come back.
(26:45):
So what are those rhythms as ateam that support you in being
high performing?
Because it's not just a caseabout doing more and more and
more and more.
That doesn't work.
We know that doesn't work.
It's what's our strategy so thatwe can do our, that we can
ultimately do the best and goafter our goals and feel at our
best while doing it, becausethat how we feel directly ties
(27:08):
to what we do and how we do it.
And how effective we are.
MiIke Goldman (27:12):
I love you bringing up the idea of
one-on-one meetings, partiallybecause it's something I am
really focused on with myclients that they do that.
'cause so many, so many leaderssay, oh, I don't have time to
have weekly or biweekly,one-on-one meetings.
And frankly, even when they doit.
They just go through a laundry,laundry list of holding the
person accountable for a bunchof stuff.
(27:33):
It's not a real conversation.
But I think, you know, in mymind, I, you know, I go back to
your answer, to my firstquestion about what the
characteristic of a greatleadership team, and you said
openness and, and I, and havingthese regular one-on-one
meetings and making them trueconversations, not just, did you
do this?
(27:54):
Did you do this?
That seems to me to be a way tocreate that open relationship,
to give a person a chance, notjust to slow down the timeline
or take fluff out of thetimeline of a project, but give
a person a chance to say no.
And I think that's what a lot ofhigh performing folks don't do
(28:16):
or don't know how to do or areafraid to do, is to say, I know
you want me to do these fivethings.
I can get three of them done,which are the most important
because I need to say no to twoof them.
So help me decide what the mostimportant ones as opposed to,
okay, I'll get all five done.
(28:36):
And then they go home andthey're thinking, how the heck
am I gonna get that stuff done?
Shauna Moran (28:40):
yeah.
And then they'll do it andyou'll think, oh, that person's
great.
MiIke Goldman (28:44):
Yeah.
Aren't they amazing?
Yeah.
Shauna Moran (28:47):
that's the, you know, I often call that the
leadership constriction trap.
You know, as high performers, weoften fall into that because as
we evolve and we get promoted,we take on more responsibility,
and we keep saying yes, yes,yes, yes.
And then we become constricted.
It's this trap right where we,we've just taken on all this
responsibility and all thisstress, so, you know, I love
(29:10):
that you know what you've said.
If for me to say yes to this, Ineed to say no to.
Whatever that is.
And those alignment check-inslike that, clarity is key.
You know, and I'll often, I'lloften, um, work, you know,
especially with female leaderswhen I work with them, you know,
they'll say, Shauna, things areunmanageable for me right now.
Like, I have so many thingsgoing on.
There's too many priorities.
(29:31):
I can't keep up.
I should be able to keep up.
And they'll tell themselves thatstory, you know, and worry about
it.
I said, let's get everythingonto paper, let's get some data
behind it, some metrics behindwhat you're doing.
Let's look at what needs to beprioritized and what your
capacity actually is.
And oftentimes when we do thatmapping, you'll find things
like, you know, there's an extra30 hours of work that week
(29:53):
that's needed, where's thatgonna come from an already 50
hour work week?
but what we have there is wehave data, and when we have
data, we can build a case and wecan effectively advocate for
ourselves.
So we can say things like.
Look, this is the reality of thesituation.
Hey, leader or CEO or whatever.
here's the reality of thesituation.
(30:14):
What do I need to prioritize?
and as a result, I'll need todeprioritize this.
What's our plan of action to beable to either be okay with this
and floor it for now or toreshuffle it somewhere else?
Um, and what's our plan longterm to make sure that all of
this work can get done if it'sall important, so we can start
to have really open.
(30:35):
Fruitful resource decisions asopposed to those high performers
stuck in that leadershipconstriction trap, feeling like
they're having to figure it allout themselves.
MiIke Goldman (30:47):
So, so shifting from if I'm a leader, what do I
need to do with and for, youknow, my team to, to handle
this?
let's say I am a senior leader,and I'll go even further.
Let's say I'm the CEO.
So it all comes down to me and Iam feeling anxiety and I'm not
(31:10):
sleeping, and all of a suddenI'm just, my optimism is gone
and I don't think things aregonna work out, and there's no
way out.
And it all comes down to me.
What am I gonna do?
you know, so if I'm a leader andI'm feeling that way, and
obviously if I'm feeling thatway, even if I try to hide it,
that's gonna start.
(31:30):
Infecting my team and I don'tknow if I like that word, but
I'll use it.
It's gonna start infecting myteam if I'm a leader and you
know, I can't go up to who I'mreporting to because it's me.
what do I do as a leader to getto, to try to work myself out of
(31:51):
that burnout situation?
Shauna Moran (31:53):
Yeah.
I love that you've asked thisquestion because that is the
reality for a lot of seniorleaders, right?
And you know, they often don'thave the spaces to say that out
loud to anyone, you know?
So I think it's important theycan hear this conversation.
And if that resonates, I wouldsay the first thing to do is to
(32:15):
build a support system.
And I'm on, not on about yoursenior leadership team or your
executive team.
I'm on about a support systemfor you, whether that is a
coach, a mentor, a businessadvisor, a therapist, you know,
it could be a breath workfacilitator.
Right, but like whatever thatis, what is your support system,
(32:38):
those trusted advisors that cansupport you from a mental,
physical, and emotional leveland perspective, right?
So thinking about all of thoselenses, who are those experts
that you can bring in and payoftentimes to have as your
support system?
So I always say strong leadersneed strong support systems.
(33:00):
So what does that look likeright now and where are some of
those gaps?
and I think that's really keyfrom that foundation.
You know, you're not gonna beable to think your way into
clarity if you're, if you'rethat dysregulated, you know?
it can be hard to see thingsclearly.
It can be hard to make decisionswhen you're in those states of
chronic stress.
(33:20):
So it really is about how do Ilearn how to regulate my system?
And we can't really think ourway into regulation.
Right.
Like we, we have to kind ofpractice our way into that.
You know, we, whether it'sthrough breath work or physical
activity or been able todecompress, coming out with that
(33:41):
fight or flight mode, right?
So that's where the nervoussystem work really comes in.
And what is it that can anchorus.
going back to basics, sleep,nutrition, water intake.
What are your coping mechanisms?
Are they healthy?
Or are you reaching for a beerat the end of the day?
Right?
No judgment, but like how canyou find those healthier coping
(34:02):
mechanisms from that place?
Then you can start to thinkabout, okay, now I feel
regulated in myself.
I feel a bit better.
I know things have to change.
I haven't solved everything, butI'm clearer.
And I'm more grounded andcentered, and from there I can
start to have conversations withmy coach, my mentor, my business
advisors, whatever that is, tostart to understand what's my
(34:24):
zone of genius and what do Ineed to hand off or create
around me so that I can spend mytime there.
In a realistic way, and buildout that strategy.
And, you know, hopefully there'ssome immediate wins and
immediate things you can handover.
and then there's probably gonnabe a plan of action there of,
okay, you know, I'm focusedprimarily on X and Y and Z needs
(34:48):
to be delegated.
Right?
And, and we don't have thatperson in place, so that becomes
your priority.
but I think the most importantthing is to not isolate yourself
in that reach out.
Yeah, reach out to someone.
you're not alone in it, youknow, and it's often the weight,
it feels heavier when we carryit alone.
And it's probably not somethingyou feel maybe comfortable
(35:09):
sharing with your executive teamor your senior leaders.
'cause you want, you know, youwant to be something for them
and, and, you know, that levelof vulnerability can feel quite
raw still.
I know those feelings, you know,so who can you place around you?
That you trust that you can leanon and that can support you in
remembering who you really are.
MiIke Goldman (35:30):
So for the individual listening leader,
non-leader, this point doesn'tmatter.
Whoever, if there's someonelistening that is in the midst
of it, they are feeling burn andyou know, I don't know, where
burnout ends and depressionbegins, or if they kind of
overlap.
But you know, some of us havebeen there where it's this.
(35:51):
It could wind up with thisfeeling of overwhelm where
something as little as, oh myGod, I have to do the laundry
now on top of everything elseI've got, or I've gotta go empty
the dish.
Like the littlest things couldfeel so overwhelming if people
are, are, you know, at thatstage they're burnt out, they're
overwhelmed.
You, Shauna, you brought up awhole bunch of great strategies
(36:14):
there.
but what's one thing, you knowfor someone listening now that's
feeling that way and they areoverwhelmed?
So going out and taking, youknow, 12 different steps to fix
it is something that soundscrazy to them.
They're not gonna go do it.
what's the first thing?
what's something they can dowhen they're done listening to
this?
So they could stop right now andput us on pause and do it.
(36:36):
what's one thing someone coulddo to just take a first step?
Shauna Moran (36:41):
Breathe.
Do it right now.
Right, like, feel your bodywherever you are, whether you're
sitting, whether you'restanding, whether you're
walking.
Feel your body, feel your feeton the floor.
Exhale and breathe.
Breathe in through the nose,really in, in, you know,
elongate that inhale.
Hold at the top and really letthat exhale.
(37:03):
Go with the sigh and justbreathe the breath.
And this is why.
I'm a breathwork facilitatorbecause the breadth is, I
believe, one of our fastest waysto a state of regulation.
And you know, the breadth hassupported me so much down
(37:24):
through the years.
I found it because I came out ofa really bad car accident and I
had really bad PTSD and Icouldn't get out of that fear
that I was in, from thataccident.
Accident.
And it was the breath, learninghow to breathe deeply, how to
regulate using your breath, thatactually really shifted
everything for me, and it stilldoes to this day, right?
(37:46):
Like it's always there.
It's our own medicine that.
We can access at any time.
We can do it in a meeting, Mike.
We can do it right now whilewe're listening to this podcast.
We can do it when we're driving.
what would it take for you totake 4, 5, 6 deep breaths?
You know, and notice then howyou feel.
And, you know, those are inthose micro moments, but to
(38:09):
build that relationship withyour breath is.
Is so powerful.
You know, there's, there's lotsof different methodologies and
tools like conscious connectedbreath work, Wim Hof Method.
There's so many things outthere, but they're all saying
the same thing.
You know, the breath is apowerful way for you to come
back to your center.
So that's the first thing Iwould recommend is.
(38:31):
To really connect with thebreath, because oftentimes it
can feel, you know, when we'reat that level of stress, it can
be, it can feel difficult to dothings like a meditation because
the mind is just go, go, go, go.
You know, I've been theremyself, and that's why the
breath is an act ofparticipation.
So for, you know, there's amovement to it.
So, sit on the ground, lie onthe ground, connect to your
(38:51):
breath, put on some music, andjust allow yourself to be for a
moment.
You know, and, and sometimesthat can bring uncomfortable
feelings up as well.
It's not all easy, right?
Like oftentimes it's like, oh,it's, it feels, it feels hard to
pause.
It feels unsafe to slow down.
So there's often reminders thatwe might need, you know, as we
(39:12):
start to kind of slow ourselvesdown.
And, and the big thing is, Ialways say, collect your own
data.
You know, like I collected myown data.
At, uh, before I went for my, myquarterly break last week where
I took that day offline and Iwas feeling okay, like I was
feeling pretty good, but I, youknow, measured myself on my
(39:33):
mental clarity, my physicalenergy, my emotional state, and
my spiritual connection and, youknow, they were scoring okay.
Uh, before the, the day off.
And then after when I came home,I re-did it and it was all a
hun.
Like it was all 90, a hundredpercent.
It was a massive shift.
So collect your own data is whatI'll say.
(39:55):
Don't just listen to me assomeone, you know, sharing.
You should do this and youshould do that.
Everyone is different.
Learn more about yourself.
Collect your own data as to whatactually works for you.
and that's really where thatmaster fullness comes in and
been able to manage stress.
MiIke Goldman (40:12):
Shauna, who as we, we start to kind of wrap up
the conversation, tell me alittle bit about who your.
Clients, are you working withleaders to create cultures to
prevent or deal with some ofthis?
Are you working with individualswho are feeling some of this?
who are your clients and andwhat kinds of work do you do
(40:34):
with them?
Shauna Moran (40:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great question.
So there's, there's two kind ofmain, programs that I offer.
So the first one is for growthorientated women in leadership
positions, and that program thatI have is called the Impact
Amplification Program.
So that's for women that.
You know, want to grow, want toget to the next stage of their
leadership, but know that thingshave to change in order for them
(40:57):
to get there.
Maybe it's their confidence,maybe it's their skills, maybe
it's their executive presence.
They want to, you know, becomethe best version of themselves
as leaders and really take theirteam and their organization to
the next level.
And that program is, you know, acombination of all the things I
needed, Mike, when I was.
You know, working my way up, asa leader.
So there's, you know, I'm anexecutive coach.
(41:18):
There's mentoring, there's groupand community, there's, you
know, self-serve trainings andleadership development tools and
frameworks.
Um, we do things like our annualin-person retreat where we bring
female leaders together inperson, in the program.
And we do meditations and breathwork and saunas and, you know,
we plan our vision for the year.
(41:40):
And it's just a really, Not justnourishing, but thriving en
environment and community.
And I'm, I'm really grateful forthat.
And, and we're constantlybuilding it.
You know, we, we see thingslike, uh, 95% retention rate for
female leaders that are in theprogram, so they'll stay with
their companies.
We see on average a 40%reduction in burnout within
(42:02):
female leaders in 90 days ofjoining the program.
And we see an 85% promotion.
rate for female leaders within18 months of joining the the
program.
So even if there's any CEOs outthere that are listening to this
that have high performing femaleleaders.
Invest in them, sponsor them tobe in a container like this and
you know, the results will payoff tenfold.
(42:24):
So that's one piece of the workI do.
And the other piece of work Ido, Mike then is working with,
um, growth stage, medium sized,small to medium sized
businesses.
And that really is more on thatstrategic consulting, really
supporting them and been able toachieve that next level of
growth with their peoplestrategy and their leadership
strategy locked in.
and again, bringing in.
(42:44):
All the work I've done over theyears, the coaching, the
advising, the mentorship, thesystemic team coaching, all of
those things are in there.
But ultimately, you know, it'sworking with, with those
companies to get to the nextstage and often unburden that
executive team, so that they canfocus on their own genius.
MiIke Goldman (43:03):
Beautiful.
And if someone wants to find outmore about you and all those
services, where, where's thebest place for them to go?
Shauna Moran (43:11):
You can head to my website, www.shaunamoran.com and
uh, you can email our team it'sinfo@shaunamoran.com.
MiIke Goldman (43:20):
And by the way, mourn is M-O-R-A-N.
Shauna Moran (43:23):
Yes, correct.
MiIke Goldman (43:25):
had to make sure I pronounced it right, be before
we started, but I want to makesure people know how to spell
it.
Shauna Moran (43:31):
yeah.
No, I appreciate that, that, uh,my Irish accent always, uh,
gives me a hard time with theletter as I pronounce it or,
but, uh, you know, you guyspronounce it r so,
MiIke Goldman (43:44):
And I'm sure we do it wrong, but that's okay.
Well, Shauna, this, this wasfantastic.
Thanks so much.
Uh, super helpful to leaders outthere.
Who wanna make sure they arebuilding the right culture for
their teams, or they're dealingand, or they're dealing with
some, some of these, uh,stresses themselves.
(44:05):
I always say if you want a greatcompany, you need a great
leadership team.
Shauna, thanks for helping usget there today.
Shauna Moran (44:11):
Yeah.
Thank you, Mike.
Thanks for holding space forthese amazing conversations and
for asking such great questions.
Really appreciate the meaningfulconversation.
MiIke Goldman (44:20):
great having you on.
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