Knowing Exactly What To Say with Phil M Jones

In this episode of The Better Leadership Team Show, I sit down with Phil M. Jones, bestselling author of Exactly What to Say, to explore how leaders can use language to influence, align teams, and drive action. Phil shares powerful insights on subconscious influence, strategic questioning, and overcoming indecision, helping leaders elevate their impact through the words they choose.

Thanks for listening! Connect with us at mike-goldman.com/blog and on Instagram@mikegoldmancoach and on YouTube @Mikegoldmancoach

Episode Transcript

Phil M Jones (00:02):
I think it's important that we don't shy away
from conversations with peoplewho have different opinions of
us.
I think it's imperative that welearn how to be able to do that,
because the only way that mindsare changed is if you can put
yourself into a conversationwhere somebody might be able to
go on and change your mind.
The simplest of beliefs to havethough, is you cannot change
anybody else's mind on anything.
If you're not prepared to beimpressionable yourself, you

(00:23):
have to go into conversationsrealizing you might not be
right.

Mike Goldman (00:34):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the

(00:54):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
For those of you watching.
This podcast and not justlistening, you'll notice we're
in a little bit of a differentplace.
We're actually in the ExactlyWhat To Say studios, which is

(01:18):
really cool.
And the reason we're doing thatis'cause we're gonna have, this
podcast is gonna be a littlemasterclass in, in influence.
And I know most leaders that Ispeak with when they think of
using communication, usingspecific words to influence,
they think about sales.
but it's about a whole lot morethan sales.
So we're gonna talk to theexpert today and Phil, I'm gonna

(01:40):
read your background soeverybody understands that.
They need to listen in'cause youknow what you're talking about.
we're gonna interview Phil MJones today, after several years
as one of the youngest salesleaders in the United Kingdom,
Phil created his training andconsulting business in 2008.
To date more than 800 differentindustries across 59 countries
and five continents havebenefited.

(02:03):
From his input, he's trusted byaspiring leaders in healthcare,
real estate, automotive,financial, and many more
industries.
He's also the founder of five.
Multimillion dollar companies.
He's best known for hisinternational bestselling book,
Exactly What To Say, which I'veread a whole bunch of times, and
more importantly, keep as areference whenever I need it.

(02:25):
it's called Exactly What to Say,the Magic Words for Influence
and Impact.
he's, amazing professionalspeaker.
He is in the National SpeakersAssociation.
it's called the CPAE award,which is basically the Hall of
Fame for, professional speakersand.
Phil's one of the most generouspeople I know.
I've been in a number ofmastermind meetings with Phil,

(02:46):
so really excited to, to getdown and talk about influence.
So Phil, thanks for doing this.
Welcome to

Phil M Jones (02:51):
thanks for having me on the show.
I think we just got a podcastepisode outta my intro, so we're
almost there.
There you

Mike Goldman (02:55):
go.
Cut that up however you want.
Use it at all your marketing inall your experience.
Phil, what do you believe is thenumber one most important
characteristic of a greatleadership team?

Phil M Jones (03:09):
I think number one is always the challenging
question to better answer andquite a difficult question to
answer on anything yet,something that is always true in
a great leadership team.
Something that's ever present inevery leadership team that I've
ever been able to label asgreat, whether it's sporting,
commercial, professional,etcetera, is there's always been
a common North Star about.

(03:30):
What winning looks like.
the leadership team all have thesame goal.
They all have the sharedmission.
They all have the shared,objective of what we're trying
to be able to achieve here andwithout that.
I think it can become morechallenging.
So it's definitely that one carecarefully considered clinical
North Star that says what we aredoing is that, and you see it in

(03:50):
sports games, right?
Like, like the North Star is towin the game.
You see it in um, in businessless frequently because what
ends up happening is leadershipteams have competing agendas,
competing objectives, and that'swhere leadership teams can get
fragmented.
'cause people are chasingdifferent rabbits.

Mike Goldman (04:06):
yeah.
and what's best for sales maynot be what's best for
operations, which may not bewhat's best for finance, which
may not be what's best formarketing.
So we need to understand whothat, that number one team is,
which in my mind is theleadership team and what is that
north star

Phil M Jones (04:20):
And it's what that common goal is, and not the
common goal that livesinternally inside the
organization.
It's picking something that is,is bigger than everybody in the
team that says collectively,that's the monster.
That's the dragon we're tryingto slay.
That's the part of gold we'rechasing.
Whatever it might be is that weall know that we have a role in
that.
And as, as somebody who'strained sales teams a lot

(04:41):
through my years is, I've alwayssaid there are only two
departments in a business is oneis the sales department and the
other is the sales supportdepartment.
Like those are the only twodivisions of a business.
and I know that there's more tothat, but you have to have a
common enemy or a common goal.
Without that, the leadershipteam is not gonna perform as a
team because you're gonna bechasing different objectives.

Mike Goldman (05:03):
So, so I'm tempted to jump into.
How you communicate as a leaderto get everybody to align around
that North Star.
But I said, I'm tempted.
I'm not gonna go there because Ithink it, I, we're gonna get
there, but I wanna, I thinkthere's some foundational ideas
that are important.
First, and one is, you know,the, I kind of reread your book

(05:25):
in preparing for this.
and one of the things you saidis, you know, you talk about
magic words, and I think thebook was originally called

Phil M Jones (05:31):
Words.
Yeah.
the first edition of it wascalled Magic Words back in 2011.

Mike Goldman (05:35):
and you say that magic words are sets of words
that talk directly to thesubconscious.
Correct.
Talk about that a little bit.
What does that mean?

Phil M Jones (05:44):
Well, when it comes to making decisions, then
people miss the puzzle thatwe're often trying to overcome,
which is this puzzle ofindecision.
Like we will tell people how todo things.
We'll give people our opinionson being able to do things
we'll.
Share versions of what I thinkyou should do is, but it often
bounces.
And when it comes to decisionmaking, we think that there's a

(06:07):
yes and a no output.
Yet, more often than not, mostpeople are stuck in maybe that
even when they say yes or thatthey say no, what they really
mean is maybe they just don'tknow enough to be either side of
that line.
The only part of our brain thatcan make decisions on impulse is
our subconscious.
That's what keeps us safe.
It's how most of us don't die,and our subconscious is making

(06:28):
decisions for us.
Day in, day out, every micromoment of a day.
It's like a human autopilot.
So if you can talk to the partof somebody's brain that is
fundamentally more decisive onimpulse, and you can turn big
decisions into series of smalldecisions, then you can get
people to make decisions withmore conviction.
Because what they're doing isthey're not procrastinating on
the maybe.
As leaders often what we'retrying to be able to do is to

(06:50):
move people from, from orderlike they are in order, even if
what they're doing is not great.
There is some degree of likehabit, routine, function, focus.
They're doing things in order,but we want them to get to new
order to get from order to neworder.
The only way you can do it is totravel through chaos.
And when you can talk to thepart of somebody's brain that

(07:12):
can make decisions quicker andwith more conviction, then they
can work through all the microsteps to get between order and
new order.
'cause you can help themnavigate chaos.

Mike Goldman (07:21):
so let's make this real because that the concept is
important.
Yeah.
How do people take action onwhat's an example of talking to
somebody's subconscious?

Phil M Jones (07:30):
Well, let's look at it this way.
What would be a from and twothat we want to get somebody to,

Mike Goldman (07:34):
let's say we want to get someone from you know,
from focusing on.
Let's talk about sales andoperations.
Okay.
Get someone from focusing onjust going out and maximizing
their sales to getting them tosubordinate.
Just what's important to them totaking into account operations
and what they can deliver.

(07:55):
So you're trying to get the themto shift from what they're
comfortable with to maybe alittle bit of a different
process or maybe selling somedifferent things that they would
all normally sell.

Phil M Jones (08:03):
Well, how important is it to you that the
operational team actually havethe wherewithal to deliver upon
your promises from the salesteam?

Mike Goldman (08:10):
Pretty important.

Phil M Jones (08:11):
Okay.
Well, when was the last timethat you spoke to anybody in
operations to give considerationto how your words, your actions
are affecting their workflow?

Mike Goldman (08:20):
I talk to them all the time about the stuff they're
doing that's not working.

Phil M Jones (08:23):
Okay.
Well, and how important is it toyou that they play like they're
on the same team as you?

Mike Goldman (08:26):
Oh, critical.

Phil M Jones (08:27):
Well, therefore, could it be possible that the
way that you are operating ismaking their life harder than it
would need to be?

Mike Goldman (08:33):
I haven't thought about it that way, but maybe,
but so, so let me step back.
And so what you're doing isyou're kind of, instead of
saying, I need you to play, Ineed you to play better with the
operations team, you're kind ofbringing me along one small step
at a time,

Phil M Jones (08:46):
in simple forms.
Instead of me saying, don't be adick, I'm helping you realize
that you're being a dick.
And you then internally say, Idon't want to be that guy
anymore.
And it ends up with you helpingask, raising your hand, and
asking for help or figuring outthrough the conversation what
help looks like.
Because the questions I'm askingyou, you cannot hide from, there

(09:08):
are not maybe answers.
There are only the truth, andthe truth starts to add up, and
then the truth can't be argued.
So that's what I mean by askingquestions towards people
subconscious, is like the answercomes straight out.
They like comes inside.
I know this one straight outtamouth.
I know this one straight outtamouth.
And before they know it, they'vereached a conclusion that there
was the conclusion that you werelooking to get somebody to.

Mike Goldman (09:30):
and I think one, one important piece to take from
that is you weren't telling meanything, you were asking me
questions.
Right.
And I know one of the otherthings I've heard you say is,
you know, whoever is asking thequestions is controlling the
conversation.
Right?

Phil M Jones (09:44):
Yeah.
They're at least leading it A a.
And most leaders don't actuallylead.

Mike Goldman (09:52):
Say more about that.
What do you mean by that?

Phil M Jones (09:54):
Well, how many times do you bump into leaders
that are either telling peoplewhat to do or they're responding
to the asks of either theircustomers or their employees?

Mike Goldman (10:04):
So most leaders,

Phil M Jones (10:05):
right?
So they're not reframing thequestion back in the other
direction.
I was with a group of leadersmaybe three weeks back at a
large event in Vegas, and manyof the leaders would identify
their value by being able tohelp their employees solve
puzzles.
So what would happen is junioremployees would bring the

(10:26):
challenge to their leadershipand say, here's the puzzle I'm
trying to solve, and the valueof the leader was like, I can
help you with this.
That's how they saw themselvesas being valuable.
We see this showing up in theworkplace all the time that
leaders attach their value tobeing able to fix other people's
problems, not for problems toget solved, for them to be the
hero, the fixer inside somebodyelse's struggle.

(10:48):
True leadership is helpingpeople be able to self-discover
and realize that they know howto think, so therefore that next
time they find themselves in asituation that's more like that,
they can solve the puzzle.
I'll give an example.
Is somebody in our organizationis perpetually asking me for
help.
And, she's grown her careertrajectory at like a phenomenal

(11:09):
rate.
She's done wonderful things, butto a point that she often bumps
into imposter syndrome.
Like, I'm not capable of beingable to do what next is being
asked of me.
So when she finds herself insome of these moments, if she'll
ping me like a text message or aFacebook message, she's like,
I'm here.
What do I do with this?
It's always a like, I'm here,it's new territory to me.

(11:29):
What do I do with this?
And obviously I know a hundredthings that I would do in that
scenario that I could give herback, and I could feel like a
hero where she'd be like, that'samazing.
Thanks for the advice.
But instead, what I say is,well, what is something that you
thought that you might be ableto do?
And she'll go, gimme a list ofthings.

(11:51):
I'm like, well, and out of thoseideas, which one do you think
might work best?
And she'll go this one.
And I'll say, well, like, like,why that?
And she'll go, I say, anypotential risks of that?
And she'll go, not really.
I say, well, what do you thinkyou should do?
And she says that.
I said, why ask?
Why are you asking me?

(12:12):
And she'll then send anexpletive or some form of like
emoji and then get back to it.
But she'll still repeat theprocess in three months or six
months time when she hitsanother milestone and gets to
the end of it is like, why am Ieven bother asking you for
advice?
And I'm like, I don't know.
Why are you,

Mike Goldman (12:28):
Well, what you're doing hopefully in time is
modeling a set of

Phil M Jones (12:32):
Right.

Mike Goldman (12:33):
that she could use moving forward and not have to
go back

Phil M Jones (12:35):
Correct.

Mike Goldman (12:36):
and what I find really interesting about that
and I'm with you a thousandpercent, is when you give
someone advice.
Even if it's good advice, and Ithink most often we're not
giving good advice.
We're giving what we would do,which may not be the right thing
for them to do, but what windsup happening is if you say,
okay, I, I think you ought to godo A, B, and C, and they get to

(12:58):
B and they hit a brick wall,what they're gonna do look, is
look back at you and go.
Okay.
Genius.
Well, what do you want me to donext?
Right.
As opposed to, even if all ofyour questions, even if the
result was they came to theconclusion, which was the same
advice you would've given them.
Now who owns it?
they own it.
So they hit that brick wall.

(13:19):
What they're gonna do is find away over it, through it around
it, versus stopping and lookingback at you.
So I love that.

Phil M Jones (13:24):
Yep.
and our job as leaders is togrow leaders.
And I believe that many leadersare scared of that fact because
what if they create a betterleader than they currently are?
Do they make themselvesredundant?
Now, that to me should actuallybe the aspiration, but to many,

(13:45):
it drives fear.

Mike Goldman (13:47):
How much of it do you think is, man, it's so much
quicker if I just give themadvice.

Phil M Jones (13:53):
That's a big thing to unpack.
What is the question you'reasking me?

Mike Goldman (13:59):
My experience and I'm interested in yours is the
excuse I get for someone notcoaching and not asking.
All the questions you said toask is, man, if I do that, you
know that's gonna take 20minutes, but I know what to do
if I tell'em what to do, that'sgonna take 90 seconds and I'm
too busy, so I'm just gonna tell'em what to do.

Phil M Jones (14:19):
Okay.
Well, what is the cost ofdelivering advice without
explanation or self-discovery?

Mike Goldman (14:28):
I'm with you.
I'm at, do you see that?
Do you see that the, that man,it's gonna take a lot of time.
Do you see that as a, as anexcuse?

Phil M Jones (14:36):
I think so.
Yeah.
I think that's why it shows upregularly is people don't
believe that they have the timeto coach, but they live in the
challenge of not truly coaching.

Mike Goldman (14:45):
I also think they don't know.
and maybe you can help withthis.
I think a lot of people don'tknow.
What questions to ask.
They think questions are, haveyou tried this?
Have you tried this?
Like, like just throwing darts.
Have you tried these things?
how should we be thinking aboutwhen someone does have a
question for us and we're tryingto coach them through it?
is there a method to, to thequestioning?
Is there a structure to thequestioning?

Phil M Jones (15:07):
Can I borrow the question that you just shared to
me?
and use it as an example for howwe could shape questions more
effectively to have moremeaningful conversations as
leaders.
Absolutely.
You've phrased a questiontowards me that potentially has

(15:27):
a precise answer.
You asked me how should.

Mike Goldman (15:29):
should

Phil M Jones (15:31):
We go about blank, that means that I have to give
you a right answer back.
If the should was swapped forthe word could.
Now what we can do is have aprocess of exploration.
So the mistake that many leadersmake when they're asking
questions of other people isthey're trying to get from A to
F or A to Z or A to some pointfurther on in the alphabet, and

(15:55):
they're trying to cover too muchground with one question.
I'm gonna make this super simplewith an example that shows up in
everyday life.
And Mike, could you, could youthink about a child in your life
that is maybe 4, 5, 6 years ofage that is, is upset to a point
that they're crying and you arepuzzled by the fact that they're
in tears?
Could you imagine that scene?

(16:15):
Sure.
In that scene, what question domost adults ask of that child?

Mike Goldman (16:20):
What's the matter?
Right?

Phil M Jones (16:22):
You are asking the child to self-diagnose whilst
they are in a period of aunregulated nervous system to
give you an answer to theirstruggle so you can feel better
about how you can help themappease their issue.
This is what we do as leadersall the time.
We show up to our people and weask them a question so that we

(16:44):
can appear like the hero intheir story.
Like, what do you need from mein order to be able to help you
better performing your job?
What have we not done for you tobe able to deliver is like we
are asking these questions thatare for our purpose, not for
their purpose.
Look at how we could change thequestion that we could ask of
the child in distress.
Instead of us asking what'swrong, we could ask them what

(17:08):
happened and look how everythingchanges.
Because when they answer thewhat happened question, you
know, my sister stole my toy,like I slipped on the stairs, or
I'm upset about a friend, orwhatever it is.
They're looking at a bit share.
You find out what's wrong whenyou ask what happened, but you
don't find out what's wrong byasking what's wrong, because

(17:32):
people can't focus on how todeal with that response.
So as leaders, the most simplequestioning arc that we can
bring up is past, present,future.
And it's as simple as, so what'shappened since?
Where are we at and where do wego from here?

(17:52):
If that was the only thing youtook from our discussion today
is every time you stepped into aconversation with somebody you
cared about is what's happenedsince.
So where are we at and where dowe go from here?

Mike Goldman (18:03):
It

Phil M Jones (18:03):
highly probable that you would be a far more
effective leader inconversations with one added
caveat.
And this is kind of ironic inwhat I'm saying right now.
It's to never, ever speak inabsolutes.
No, what's your top, what's yournumber one, what should you do?
What action is the right thingto do at this given moment is

(18:25):
the, you stifle almost everypiece of credibility when
somebody thinks there's a rightanswer and a wrong answer.
We have to create a play spacethat's a safe space, that's a
gray space that allows people tobe able to come drop up new
ideas in it.
And that is done by being lessprecise with your language on
purpose,

Mike Goldman (18:43):
and I see that in my personal life, probably more
at least, or at least as much ismy business

Phil M Jones (18:51):
life.

Mike Goldman (18:52):
Anytime I ever say to my wife, you always, or you
never, I know I'm in troubleafter I say that,

Phil M Jones (18:57):
of course it creates friction because what it
does is it triggers the side ofthe brain to evidence the time
that you didn't, and what you'redoing is you're creating fight
or flight.
When somebody says you alwaysleave the toilet seat up, you're
like, yesterday I put it downbecause it's a fight.
And it doesn't need to be.

Mike Goldman (19:16):
How much of this is technique?
Here's the way I ought to saythese things and learning.
Don't say, should say could and.
How much of it is techniqueversus building a certain
attitude or belief before you gointo the conversation?

Phil M Jones (19:40):
How much of it is technique?
Define technique for me.

Mike Goldman (19:44):
So I'll give you an example.
Okay.

Phil M Jones (19:45):
Okay.

Mike Goldman (19:46):
So years ago I had a staffing and recruiting firm,
and I had a couple of staffingsupervisors working for me, and
I had read that as a leader, andI was still a young leader.
I had read as a leader, we needto ask more questions, stop
being so dictatorial and askquestions.
So I said, great, I'm gonna askmore questions.
So I asked a whole bunch ofquestions.
Then I sat down with one ofthese leaders.

(20:08):
Juliana, who's one of mystaffing supervisors, and I
said, what could I do better asa leader?
We were doing a dreadedperformance review, which I used
to do back then.
I said, what can I do better asa leader?
And she said, I wish you'dlistened to us more.
I said, are you kidding?
I asked you every morning we gettogether in our daily huddle and
I ask questions, and she said,you do.

(20:29):
But we always come around to theway you wanna do things.
And what I realized is while Ihad learned some technique that
could have worked, my attitudewas still, I'm the smartest guy
in the room.
So that taught me like.
Technique in and of itself isnot always good enough.
So I'm wondering if there is a,an attitude or a belief we need

(20:51):
to have as a foundation to someof these techniques?
Or is it more about the tech?
'cause there is such a thing asbehaving yourself into a new
habit or a new belief.
So I'm just wondering about theinterplay of those two

Phil M Jones (21:03):
things.
Okay.
Are you asking a question or areyou disguising your belief as a
question?

Mike Goldman (21:10):
I am asking the question.

Phil M Jones (21:14):
I

Mike Goldman (21:14):
guess I'm checking my

Phil M Jones (21:16):
Okay.
By

Mike Goldman (21:17):
the question.
Okay,

Phil M Jones (21:18):
Okay.
So what the question would'vebeen, what is your experience?
Okay.
You see how that would changethings is what is your
experience as opposed

Mike Goldman (21:26):
to what is truly happening in the world.
It's

Phil M Jones (21:28):
as opposed to saying is, do you find blank to
be true?
That is leading the witness iswhereas if you could say, well,
you know, what is yourexperience been of what it
really takes to be able to excelin these environments?
The goal is to not put theanswer in the question.
If you put your answer in thequestion, then the other person
is only gonna either feed yourconfirmation bias or they're

(21:51):
gonna, they're gonna resist itinto the other direction.
What I do see from anexperiential point of view that
shows up into the reason whymany people struggle in these
environments is because they'vebeen badly trained, they've been
trained with lazy advice, likeyou need to ask more questions.

(22:13):
They've been trained with, hereis the script and the dialogue
that you need to follow in thisgiven environment.
They've been constrained by astructure that is rigid, that
becomes the tool to be able tonavigate the conversation as
opposed to the conversationitself.
So they're either following thereview process or they are,
dancing through the presentationthe way that it was intended to,

(22:34):
or delivering the informationthe way they were trained to or
following the question stackthey were given by somebody
else.
What is required to be able tooperate at the highest of levels
in these environments is, in myopinion, not necessarily
technique.
it is skillset more so thantechnique.

Mike Goldman (22:51):
how do you differentiate between those two?

Phil M Jones (22:53):
if you are baking a cake.
You can understand the techniquefully of what it takes to be
able to make the batter, put itinto the tin, put it into the
oven.
It doesn't necessarily mean thatwhat comes out of the oven is a
great cake.
You could have had thetechnique.
You need to have skill and skillis something that is a

(23:13):
combination between techniqueand experience.
It is.
it is something that allows youto be able to navigate the
nuance of reality alongsidetechnique.
That means that you can deliverguaranteed outcomes in the same
as the cake baking analogy.
There is skill means that youknow that if the humidity of the

(23:36):
environment you're in thatperiod of time is gonna affect
the.
Humidity inside the oven.
And I'm, I might be talkingnonsense here right now, but
it's like, you know how theexternal factors affect the
model technique, so thereforeyou can adjust in real time to
be able to guarantee yourself anoutcome.
So I believe that the skillsetis essential.

(23:56):
The other part that I believe isessential is mindset.
And something that I've learnedto be remarkably true in my life
is the more I know, the less Iknow for sure.
So as my life has gone on andI've gained more experience and
more information and morewisdom, the more certain I am, I
don't know enough.

(24:17):
And I think that's the mindsetthat you should bring towards
how you show up in negotiationtype conversations is the
strongest of leaders have nopredetermined outcomes.
The strongest of salesprofessionals have no
predetermined outcomes.

Mike Goldman (24:33):
They

Phil M Jones (24:33):
They have hopes, ambitions, and goals.
Sure.
But they're not deciding howthis is gonna go.
They're actually showing up toconversations with a degree of
neutrality is, I don't knowwhere this is gonna end up, but
I know I'm skilled enough tofind out, and whether that's a,
is this somebody that I'm goingto coach up or coach out that
you can show up to aconversation not needing to know

(24:55):
that ahead of time.
You can show up to aconversation saying, I'm gonna
find out.
In today's conversation, and I'mat peace with either direction,

Mike Goldman (25:04):
You're show showing up, curious to some
degree

Phil M Jones (25:06):
strategically curious, and that's the skillset
and mindset that can help youwin.
and it means that you shouldnever, ever give any advice
about anything unless you cansay these words first.
And the words you should look tosay first are the words because
of the fact that you've said.
Because of the fact that yousaid blank, and blank.

(25:28):
Then for those reasons, myrecommendations would be blank,
and blank.
And now every recommendation youmake is significantly more
palatable towards the otherperson because it was for their
reasons and not yours.

Mike Goldman (25:41):
and starting off with, because of the fact that
you said assumes that you'veasked them some questions
before, so you've heard whatthey've

Phil M Jones (25:49):
said.
That's an insanely simpleframework to think about.
In theory, it's a challengingframework to deliver in practice
'cause you have to collect theblanks.
How do you collect the blanks?
You have to be strategicallycurious and even look at
strategically curious questionsfollowing the past, present,
future arc that mentionedearlier is you could
strategically question somebodytowards their past situation.

(26:14):
Hey, last time we spoke, youmentioned blank, and blank.
What's happened since.
So, where are we at?
Where do we go from here?
How much longer do you seeyourself working as part of this
organization?
How important is it to you thatyou are well liked by your other
team members?
How important is it to you thatthe task that you're taking on
board are delivering the rightkind of results for we need

(26:37):
inside the business at thismoment in time?
Could it be possible that theactivities and actions you've
been putting in were really highimpact activities for the way
the business used to be and arenot so relevant for what they
need to be today?
Hey, Mike, because of the factthat you said that it's
important to you that you are along-term part of our future
here in this organization, andthat you're prepared to be able

(26:59):
to do what is necessary to beable to make a change, and that
you believe that you have accessto the right resources to be
able to step up for thosereasons.
I'm gonna give you anotherchance.
We're gonna put you on a 90 dayprogram.
We're gonna help you with blank,and blank.
What I'm gonna do differentlyfor you is blank, and blank, and
what you're gonna commit to beable to do is blank and blank.
Does that sound fair?

(27:19):
But it isn't just asking morequestions, it's collecting a
body of evidence so that you canmake meaningful recommendations.

Mike Goldman (27:25):
How would you say so with the example, it tells us
a lot about how you might havethat difficult conversation to
give somebody feedback.
Sure.
Maybe similar, but let me ask ifyou have, I'm just, scenarios
are going through my mind whereI know leaders have.
Difficult times communicatingand don't always do it.

(27:45):
Right.
One of those is you've got apeer on the team.
Maybe I'll go back to sales andoperations.
You got the head of sales, yougot the head of operations that
are banging heads for any numberof reasons, and you know how
should one or both of them I usethat should what I'm gonna try
and answer the question in theright way.
Right.
what's your experience in, in,in ways that those leaders.

(28:10):
Could enter into thoseconversations to improve the
chances of a positive result.

Phil M Jones (28:18):
Okay.
and is this, who's initiatingthis conversation?
If this is sales and operations?
Who's initiating,

Mike Goldman (28:25):
let's say it is I'll, let's say it's operations
who has finally had enough ofwhat's going on and says.
We've gotta figure out ananswer.
So let's say it's the operationsperson that's saying, you know,
man, we need to talk as thisisn't working.

Phil M Jones (28:42):
Okay.
I think firstly, you've gottaremember you're on the same team
and you've gotta believe thatthis is a teammate, not an
enemy.
So I would start with that view,and I would also realize, I
don't know enough about thepressure, the challenges, the
obstacles that sales leader ishaving at that moment in time.
And that if I want them tounderstand more about my

(29:03):
scenario, I'm gonna have todecide that I'm gonna have to
learn more about theirs.
What I'm then gonna look to beable to do is initiate a
conversation'cause I have tolead this, right?
I have to start thisconversation from somewhere.
So I'm going to use a preface ofa sequence of words from the
book, exactly what to say, whichare the words, when would be a
good time.

(29:24):
So if I'm in, in operations, andI wanna bring this up with you,
Mike, and you're in sales, is Icould do this via text message,
I could do this via email.
I could do this over a phonecall.
I'm gonna put some form ofcontextual setup in place that
says, you know, Mike, I knowthat we're both on the same team
when it comes from a leadershippoint of view and something we,
both definitely want to be ableto achieve is to make sure that

(29:46):
we collectively achieve betteroutcomes for our shareholders,
for our customers, etcetera.
I might also put another fact inthere is that I also understand
at this moment in time there arethings that we are doing that
are frustrating you and thatthere are some things that you
are doing that potentially couldbe frustrating us.
When would be a good time for usto talk this through properly

(30:08):
note properly.
So that we can put a planforward from here.
Question mark.
Now that could be an email, itcould be a text message, it
could be a quick phone call, butit's a monologue.
And what I'm doing is I'mputting some context up front
that says, I understand that I'ma part of the problem here too.

Mike Goldman (30:23):
Yeah.
You're not blaming,

Phil M Jones (30:24):
not blaming me, not blaming in any way, shape,
or form.
I'm asking when would be a goodtime.
I'm adding a word like properly,completely, fully.
'cause otherwise what we end updoing is we end up doing the,
you got a minute.
Right.
And if you catch somebody withthe got in it, you don't get the
best version of them.
Show up to those

Mike Goldman (30:43):
conversations.
That could also be, we justargued about this yesterday,

Phil M Jones (30:46):
right?

Mike Goldman (30:47):
properly says we gotta do things differently.

Phil M Jones (30:49):
Correct?
And I'm giving it a frame thatsays that we are gonna now enter
into this conversation.
Now I've created a moment.
I'm then gonna approach thatconversation with strategic
curiosity saying, what don't Iknow?
But I'm gonna maybe putsomething up there, up front.
And there's a structure that weteach to how to open any
conversation, and it's astructure we call OFQ, which is

(31:11):
opening fact question.
That's a polite opening, amutually agreeable fact, and
then an easy to answer question.
So when I step into thisconversation as the ops leader
to the sales leader and we'resat across a boardroom table,
'cause we created a moment thatwas free from distractions that
we both had enough time towards,is I'm gonna say like, Hey Mike.

(31:31):
I know we haven't spent a lot oftime working together in the
same space, right?
If this is a mutually agreeablefact, I also know that we're on
the same team, and what wedefinitely wanna be able to do
is to make the CEO happy withour combined outcomes.
And I also know that my team aregiving me a hard time, and you
might not know just how much ofa challenge that is causing in
their day to day.

(31:51):
Then I'm gonna give an easy toanswer question.
And in this scenario, the easyto answer question could be is
no doubt.
There are some things on yourside of responsibility that we
are doing that is making yourlife less than ideal too.
Would that be fair?

Mike Goldman (32:06):
Yeah.
they're gonna say yes,

Phil M Jones (32:08):
right?
Or they're gonna say no.

Mike Goldman (32:09):
no.

Phil M Jones (32:11):
Either way, I win.
That's what makes it an easy toanswer.
no.
You guys are great.
So hang on.
You are the asshole.
Got it.
Right, but either way, like I'madmitting that we can have some
form of creation of new normalhere.
'cause we are not perfect too.
But I'm giving you permission toanswer a question simply, and
that easy to answer questionjust gives me the frame to then
step into what's next.
Where do I go from here?
I go, past, present, future.

(32:33):
I say, well, what do youunderstand about the challenges
that are created inside of ourdepartment as a result of what
you're doing about blank, andblank?
And they say, well, not much.
I say, well, what is yourexperience about what it takes
to be able to deliver blank, andblank?
They say not much.
I say, when was the last timethat you needed to be able to
stand up in front of a customerand explain to them why we can't
deliver what your salespeoplehave put on the paperwork?

(32:54):
They're like, I haven't.
I'm like, how would you feel ifthat was you having to be able
to go back on the promise thatone of your coworkers made?
And could it be possible thatthere's a simple solution here?
Well, yeah, I guess so.
What I do, I just future cast itagain.
Right?
So where do we go from here?
And then they self-diagnose afailure.

Mike Goldman (33:19):
what you're probably doing there is
modeling.
if I, if you're the operationsperson and I'm the salesperson,
you're modeling.
'cause if I have problems too.
I'm now, you've just taught mesomething.
I'm gonna come back at you withmaybe some similar questions,
which should be beautiful.

Phil M Jones (33:35):
We're creating a lingua franca here that allows
us to be able to communicatearound chaos.
Because what we're not doing is,I'm not saying you are the
problem.
I'm saying there's a problem andwhat I need is I need your help
for us to go solve this problemover here.
Instead, most people come at theproblem and say, you are the
issue.
And if I'm ever labeling aconversation where I'm saying,

(33:56):
you are the problem, the onlything you're gonna do as a human
being is fight or flight.

Mike Goldman (34:00):
Yeah.
I'm gonna get defensive.

Phil M Jones (34:01):
You.
You can't not, because thealternative is to either be the
victim or take the beating,neither of which you wanna do.
even if you accept that you'rebeing victimized or you feel
like you're just gonna take thebeating,'cause you're tough, you
still leave the meeting going,fuck you.
Right.

Mike Goldman (34:21):
it's, you know, it's something I say that my
audience has probably heard athousand times.
The idea of the law, of positiveintent, believing the other
person's just trying to do thebest they can with the resources
they have.
And you talk about mindset,that's a mindset going in that's
gonna make you curious.
You're gonna ask questions,you're not gonna, it's not gonna

(34:41):
be about anger and frustration.
It's curiosity as to what'sreally going

Phil M Jones (34:45):
and it's not my right and your wrong.
It's what is the new version of,right, that we're gonna
co-create together in thisconversation.
And that allows you to say, faceallows everybody to say face,
because we're not trying tolabel moments we're trying to
create next.

Mike Goldman (35:02):
Now I'm gonna use this as a way to, to loop back
around to the way you answeredthe first question around great
leadership teams where youtalked about North Star in
alignment.
Because this conversation thatwe're talking about, this
difficult conversation betweenthe head of sales and the head
of operations is gonna go a loteasier if there is some shared
vision of what we're all tryingto create versus the operations

(35:25):
vision versus the sales divisionand their.
You know, they're battlingagainst each other.
What are some of the mistakesyou've seen leaders make in
aligning around that North Star?
Some companies do a great job ofit.
Some, not so much.
What mistakes have you seenleaders make in trying to get
that organization aligned?

Phil M Jones (35:47):
The most common or reoccurring mistake I see on
that is they set a north starthat is not inclusive of a
belief that every stakeholderhas a part to play in that.
So sometimes that North Star,star is a revenue goal or it's.
Some, you know, some lofty exitstrategy goal or Right?

(36:09):
it isn't something that peoplecan see themselves in.
And the result of which is thatwhen people can't directly see
how their contribution impactsthat North Star is, they're not
playing for that North Star.
They have to go pick another onebecause they don't see a path to
their involvement in theachieving of that North Star
and.
I give the revenue examples onthis.

(36:30):
Somebody can be like, you know,we want to grow revenue in this
department.
Our North Star is that we wantto get to, you know, 350,000
units of production.
That's our North Star.
Everything that we're all doingis to get to 350,000 units in
production.
and somebody isn't realizingthat if their job is in customer
support, customer service,operations, or delivery.

(36:52):
Is it has nothing to do withthem, how many gets put into the
top end.
But if that was redefined, thatsays the reason we wanted to get
to 350,000 units is because wewanted to change our ation to be
the number one in the industryof blank, which means that we
need to displace, this person,this person, this person, to
better get to number one now,customer support, customer

(37:13):
service operation could getbehind the, our job is to be
number one in our class.
That's what the North Star is.
We want to be the number one Xin Y.
Therefore, if we're dropping theball at fulfillment, if we're
dropping the ball in customersupport, if we're dropping the
ball on reputation and reach, itdoesn't matter how much that
goes into the top end.
We won't reach the number oneposition if we're not delivering

(37:34):
our promises all the way throughto the finish line.
If people are leaving, if peopleare bad mouthing, like everybody
can understand, they have theparts to play in it.
So the North Star needs to bebig enough to mean that every
member of the orchestra needs tounderstand what musical
instrument they're playing, whythe song matters, and what a
standing ovation looks like.
It's big, but the mistake thatpeople make is there's a

(37:56):
self-centered North star thatdoesn't include everybody.

Mike Goldman (38:02):
Yeah, I love it.
And I always hate the, do youknow, our big hairy, audacious
goal is to be a billion dollarcompany, and half the
organization is saying, why do Icare about that?
And by the way, I don't know ifI want that.
We're gonna go from this greatclose-knit environment to this
big company, and I'm gonna be anumber.
So, so I love that.
how could leaders take all ofthis?

(38:24):
And there's a ton more in yourbook, and in a lot of your
teachings and your podcast andyour keynotes.
how could a leader take all thisand make it a habit?

Phil M Jones (38:34):
Okay.

Mike Goldman (38:35):
Okay.
Because it's so easy to getcaught up in the moment and
they're running fast and I'm,you know, I'm gonna do it quick.
How do they take all thesethings?
And ma I mean, even some of thequestions I asked you, you
corrected me on, you know, andrightfully so on, on how to ask
that question.
How do we make that a habit?

Phil M Jones (38:52):
A skillset comes through repetition.
There are two simple actionsthat every leader could take
that would result in them beinga significantly better
communicator.
The first is to decide what aretheir three critical
conversations.
There are three most criticalconversations at this moment in
time in their life.
Can they pick three?

(39:13):
One that should have some formof revenue attachment towards
it.
One that should have some peopleand productivity attachment
towards it.
And one may be in the way thatthey lead in a personal area of
their life, in their family, orin a friend group, etcetera.
So they've got a personalcritical conversation.
They've got a money moment,critical conversation, and
they've got, you know, aleadership impact, people of
productivity conversation,simply knowing what are the

(39:35):
moments that you are worthy offocusing on.
Are gonna make you a bettercommunicator.
'cause people say every momentmatters and they do.
But some moments matter more.
So could a leader just identifythat they're pretty good at most
of their job but they suck atopening meetings?
Could a leader realize thatthey're pretty good at creating
culture amongst their team, butthey're not so good at driving

(39:57):
daily productivity, and it'sbecause of the way they close
out every morning huddle.
Could a leader realize that?
That they might be doing a greatjob of being able to inspire
their team, but they're notnecessarily doing a good enough
job of being able to inspiretheir family to get excited
about what's happening in theremainder of the year, and find
a moment where they could moreimpact that.
Every leader could do that.

(40:17):
Pick a moment where you realizethat currently you're a six
outta 10, that if you are 8, 9,10, or 11, it would change your
world and stay on just thatmoment until you elevate your
performance to a level thatyou're like, I got that.
That's now my standard operatingprocess.
Then move again.
Move again.
This mindset around criticalconversations is really helpful
for self, but how much of abetter leader would you be if

(40:39):
you knew everybody in your team?
What are they working oncommercially?
What are they working on as amoment of impact as a leader in
their life?
What is showing up in their lifepersonally?
That is their criticalconversations.
You can lead your people better.
The second thing to be able togive consideration to.
It is how do you build apractice around the words that
you reach for so that you don'tpractice on your prospects, you

(41:03):
don't practice on your people,you practice in private.
Then when you're in high impactmoments with your people, you've
got reps.
And I'll show an example of howwe can do that here with the
book is people read this book inlike an hour and they're like,
that was an easy read.
I get it.
And then they don't practice anyof it in their daily
conversations.

(41:23):
And it's because they thoughtthe job was to read this book.
The reason I made this book sosmall is so that you could
rinse, repeat it, rinse, repeatit, rinse, repeat it, rinse,
repeat it.
The challenge that people thoughstruggle with is they don't add
the missing ingredient, which istheir lens.
What you should be able to do isto write an example of every

(41:44):
sequence of words in this bookaround a moment that you've
decided that matters to you.
We're gonna put this to testright now.
And Mike, if you were a leaderright now looking to navigate a
particular type of conversation,what might that conversation be?
And I'm gonna write an examplefrom every sequence of words in
the book to see how this playsout.

Mike Goldman (42:04):
Say the question one more time

Phil M Jones (42:06):
is what might be a challenging conversation that a
leader is looking to be able tohave that if they were to use
the book as a practice tool toget ready for it, what might it
be?
And we're gonna write a newexample that isn't in the book
from memory.

Mike Goldman (42:18):
an example that's happening right now.
I've got a leader who.
Needs to get where they want togo.
This new vision they have as anorganization, they need to
significantly raise the barright on the skill level and
performance of the people withinthe organization and raise the
bar on new people they'rehiring.

(42:39):
Okay.
And that's been a difficultconversation to have.

Phil M Jones (42:41):
Okay.
And that's the outcome thatyou'd like to have from that
conversation?
Where's the moment?

Mike Goldman (42:46):
The moment is, one of the moments is this leader,
having a conversation with oneof one, one of the members of
the senior leadership team thatis, that has not raised the bar
on the performance

Phil M Jones (43:03):
Yep.

Mike Goldman (43:04):
Of their team.
And therefore the performancethat was acceptable six months
ago is no longer acceptable.
Yeah.
And helping.
communicate and helping thatleader change their behavior to
either have people rise upmm-hmm.
Or say we may need to have somemore difficult conversations.

Phil M Jones (43:21):
So I'm gonna put this to work, right?
These are just the words in thebook that I'm gonna run through
the lens that you've justpresented here.
And firstly, I'm gonna make a,an invitation.
I'm gonna say, I'm not sure ifit's for you, but how
open-minded would you be to aproper sit down conversations
about how you could be moreeffective to the organization at
large, based on the situationwe're currently in, in the
business?
Sure.

Mike Goldman (43:41):
Sure.
Wide open.

Phil M Jones (43:42):
I'm gonna say, well, what do you know about
what it really takes to be ableto execute at the level that we
need to?

Mike Goldman (43:50):
Oh, I know what it takes to get where we've already
gotten, but I'm still learningwhat it takes to get to the next
step.

Phil M Jones (43:56):
Well, how would you feel if we are questioning
whether you've got what it takesto be able to get us to where we
need to go?

Mike Goldman (44:07):
I'd want to know what you're questioning and what
improvements I need to make

Phil M Jones (44:12):
and look.
I mean, just imagine.
What it's gonna mean to usindividually, if we can all
create the change that'snecessary to get us to where we
want to go.

Mike Goldman (44:23):
Yeah.
The new vision's great.
I'd love to figure out how toget there.

Phil M Jones (44:27):
Well, when would be a good time for you to
document a meaningful plan aboutwhat you think would need to
change to be, to get us therefrom,

Mike Goldman (44:36):
I could have something by the end of the
week.

Phil M Jones (44:39):
I'm guessing you haven't got around to being able
to complete the plan fully yet.
I

Mike Goldman (44:45):
I just told you I was gonna Yeah, I get it.
Right.
Yeah.
If it's a week goes by and thathappens.
Yeah.

Phil M Jones (44:50):
Bingo.
Right?
We then have a chapter calledSimple Swaps, and like remember
earlier I gave simple swapsabout swapping shoulds for
coulds and Yeah.
Right.
is, there are always examples.
We're stepping into thesituation.
We can be aware of, like we'relooking at problems, we're
looking at challenges.
We're not looking at mistakes,we are looking at opportunities.
Like there's so many areas whereyou can look at like what are
all the, definitely don't saythat.

(45:11):
Say this instead, again,stepping in.
To this same scenario, I'm justrunning my practice here.
I'm gonna say, look, the way Isee it's you have three options,
is obviously what you could dois you could do the things of
the way that you've always done.
Keep showing up.
Try to do that harder.
Look to be able to put moreenergy and effort into it,
however, unlikely see improveresults.
Alternatively, you could decidethat this is not the place that

(45:33):
you want to pursue your careerin, and you can decide to start
looking for another job.
Or

Mike Goldman (45:40):
Or

Phil M Jones (45:41):
what we can do is.
we can look at creating acompletely different playbook,
share some insights that haveworked in other organizations in
the past, you can follow thedevelopment plan that we've
created for you and perhaps getsome alternative results.
Out of those three options,which one do you think is more
likely to be able to help get usto achieve the North Star that
we're all looking for?

Mike Goldman (46:01):
Yeah, the last one.

Phil M Jones (46:03):
Got it.
So all I'm doing, and

Mike Goldman (46:05):
No, love that.
and to me, you know, the thingthis is helping me with, you
said a couple of things.
One, you know, running through.
Again, it's easy to think ofinfluence as, you know, this is
important for the salespeopleand we're just showing, no, this
is any high stakes conversationwe need to have.
But you said something beforethat, that's super important

(46:25):
where you talked about, youknow, what are the, what are the
three, you know, most importantmoments.
You know, whether it's personal,whether it's professional.
And what that helped me with is,one of the things I've heard you
say, and I think you say it inthe book as well, I know you say
it in your book, is, you know,the worst time to, to think
about what you're gonna say isthe moment where you need to

Phil M Jones (46:43):
a hundred percent.

Mike Goldman (46:43):
And I always look, I look at that, I'm like.
Well, that sounds great, butman, I can't plan for every damn
conversation.
But what you said that's superhelpful is, no, that's not what
we're saying.
but if we do say, Hey, right nowin, you know, at this point in
time, these are the threemoments, these are the three
situations that are mostimportant.
And yeah.
Damn.

(47:04):
Well better, better plan forwhat I'm gonna say and how I'm
gonna say it and what my mindsetneeds to be.

Phil M Jones (47:10):
Watch what happens if I keep going with these here
as well.
Yeah.
Right.
Is I've just come off that youhave three options.
I could say, look, Mike, thereare two types of people in this
world.
There are those that arenostalgic about the way that
things used to be done, andthere are those that prepare for
growth, right?
And you're like, okay, well Iwanna be the latter and I bet
you're a bit like me.
And that you're prepared tocontinually change when the

(47:30):
change is worth it for thepeople you care about.
And you're like, yeah.
And I'm gonna say, look, youknow, if you wanna be part of
this team, then then I'm excitedfor us to be able to get to work
together.
Don't worry, you're not in thisalone.
You have the resources andsupport that I've promised to
you from my side too.

Mike Goldman (47:49):
And by the way, if it's not clear, for those of you
that are listening and notwatching, all Phil's doing is
stepping through the pages ofhis book and using every, you
know, each chapter has some, away to say something.
Yeah.
And all he is doing is steppingthrough the book and applying it
to this situation.

Phil M Jones (48:03):
Right.
And then I'd say, look, that,you know, most people would
resist this kind of feedback andchange.
And I know that you're not likemost people, the good news is
that there is so much more thatis in your control than you
currently believe is possible.
And.
The further good news is that Ibelieve that you've got it, what
it takes to do this.

(48:24):
And what happens next is that weare going to put the work in to
be able to help devise thatplan.
We're gonna give you theresources that you're currently
missing and you're gonna say,well, I still dunno whether I
can do it.
And I'm gonna say, really, whatmakes you say that?
And then you're gonna have toexplain yourself, If you gimme
any further pushback orresistance as to why something

(48:44):
can't be done.
I'm gonna say, look, before youmake your mind up.
Would it make sense if we justlook at all the facts, And then
at the end of that conversationwhen we've looked at all the
facts, I'm gonna say, look, if Ican give you the resources that
you're looking for, will youcommit to give this your full
attention, energy, and effort?
And I'm gonna get your buy-in,

Mike Goldman (49:02):
and all you're really doing is exactly what you
said, no pun intended.
Exactly what you said early inthe conversation, which was
about getting, you know, takingsmaller steps, talking to that
subconscious mind and taking theeasiest step forward versus
going from beginning aconversation to the final
chapter in the book and saying,okay, so this is what we need to

(49:24):
do.
No.

Phil M Jones (49:25):
just

Mike Goldman (49:26):
gotta, we've gotta guide them there to not guide.
gotta take step by step throughthe smaller questions.

Phil M Jones (49:32):
The beauty of following that as a practice
though, before you go into aconversation isn't necessarily
'cause you're gonna show up tothat conversation and say,
that's my core structure.
It is because what you've doneis you've just done a warmup of
potential moves that you couldmake that depending upon which
point of the conversation youfind yourself in, you've got
choices, you've got options,you've got some muscle memory

(49:55):
about how something might comeout and how it might, si, might
sound.
So the work I would encourageleaders to do is to always think
about your three criticalconversations.
Run them through the lens of howthe examples in the book can now
be rewritten.
Where you are rewriting theexamples.
You're not thinking about theexamples in the book.
You're thinking about writingexamples that can serve your
moments.

(50:15):
And then the only other momentsyou need to get prepared for is
the ones that you know that arecoming, which is later today.
So if you've got somethinghappening later today, could you
run your practice?
Yeah, run your practice.
And pros, practice.
Pros, practice.
They're not brilliant at whatthey do.
They're brilliant at what theydo because they practice.
So create yourself a practicethat allows you to be more ready
for the no moments by gettingready for the no moments before

(50:38):
you find yourself in a nomoment.

Mike Goldman (50:42):
Before we wrap things up, I'm gonna take a
little bit of a left turn tosomething that's more, I guess
I'll say it's current.
It's been going on for a while,but it's heavier now, is the
idea of political conversations

Phil M Jones (50:54):
happening at work,

Mike Goldman (50:56):
and I'm not asking where you stand on the, on, the
political, left versus right,but.
That you know, more and more.
That's something that, you know,it used to when it came up at
work, it would cause somedebates and some arguments and
everybody go their separateways, but they could still be
friends tomorrow.
But the world has gotten sopolarized, obviously, it's.

(51:17):
You know, it, my experience isit's more dangerous today than
it's ever been if you handle itin the wrong way.
what's been your experience withthe, do you just, do you stay
away from those conversations?
Do you have them?
But there's a way to have them.

Phil M Jones (51:29):
I went there in a PBS interview on television just
a short number of weeks ago, isI think it's important that we
don't shy away fromconversations with people who
have different opinions of us.
I think it's imperative that welearn how to be able to do that,
because the only way that mindsare changed is if you can put
yourself into a conversationwhere somebody might be able to
go on and change your mind.

(51:50):
The simplest of beliefs to havethough, is you cannot change
anybody else's mind on anything.
If you're not prepared to beimpressionable yourself, you
have to go into conversationsrealizing you might not be
right.
We're back to that neutralposition, but look how a
practice could serve you.
Again, I go back to the book,look, Mike, I'm not sure if it's
for you, but how open-mindedwould you be to considering how
you know me and somebody from mybackground might see this kind

(52:12):
of slightly differently.

Mike Goldman (52:17):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.

Phil M Jones (52:18):
Like there's a starting point there.
We just created a frame, right?

Mike Goldman (52:20):
same framework.
Yeah,

Phil M Jones (52:21):
You know, what do you know, or what do you
understand about all of thefacts to do with X, Y, and z?
What do you know about thereason why somebody might be
thinking that?
What do you know about why thatmight be a good thing, as well
as the bad thing?
What do you know about, youknow, how there might be some
long-term benefit from that kindof policy, belief or change?
Like if I'm questioning the fan,not your belief or your opinion,

(52:45):
but the knowledge base of thatbelief or opinion, that's where
we can kind of start to be ableto find some cracks.
Like, well, how?
How would you feel if, and thenI'm gonna say that it was
somebody you cared about,somebody you love.
It was your daughter, yourfriend, your mother that was
being, experiencing those kindof negative changes.

(53:06):
Or how would you feel if youwere living in this scenario and
these were your circumstances?
And I can put people into analternative universe and I can
say, well, you know, justimagine like how life would be
if we could find out that thereare some things that we all
agree on more than we disagree.

Mike Goldman (53:22):
And

Phil M Jones (53:22):
then give people some hope.
And I could say, look, you know,you know, when would it be a
good time for you to sit with melook at my newsfeed for a day
and see how that might changesome of your beliefs.
And, you know, I look, I'm

Mike Goldman (53:35):
but in all of this, as you said, you've gotta
be open to changing your beliefsas

Phil M Jones (53:38):
well.
A hundred percent.
You

Mike Goldman (53:39):
you're not, it seems like the dangerous thing
is entering into theconversation with the goal of
trying to prove you are rightand they wrong versus entering
into conversation to say.
Let's find a little bit moreabout how we both think and and
if we end up the conversationjust with me a little smarter
about what you're thinking aboutand you're a little smarter
about what I'm thinking aboutdoesn't mean we have to change

(54:00):
where we stand politically orwhat we believe about gun
control or what we believe abouttariffs or anything else.
What is, let's share someinformation.

Phil M Jones (54:12):
What is one plus one?

Mike Goldman (54:17):
two.

Phil M Jones (54:18):
That's what most

Mike Goldman (54:18):
always though.
Not always

Phil M Jones (54:20):
is when you learn that one plus one can equal
eight.
Everything changes in yourworld.
I'll explain it, right, if I'mone and you are one.
One plus, one is two.
But what we also have is we alsohave something else here.
That's you and me.
That's another two.
We also have me and you.
That's another two.

(54:40):
We also have us, that's anothertwo.
So actually there are eightseparate identities in one plus
one, And that's the part thatmost people forget.
And you cannot create a changein anybody's conversational
environment until you've taken azoom back to give consideration
of all of those differentperspectives.
There are all different vantagepoints'cause in a conversation

(55:02):
about something that we arelooking to better talk about.
I got my opinion, you got youropinion.
We also have our opinion.
I also have my opinion.
Towards you.
You have your opinion towardsme.
We then also have a collectiveopinion.
you see like all of thosedynamics mean that one plus one
equals eight.
When you know that you'll neverenter a conversation the same

(55:22):
way again.
Because until you can actuallyexplore all those different
dynamics, you have no right toform an opinion.

Mike Goldman (55:29):
Phil, if someone wants to find out more about
you, your books, your speaking,where's the best place for them
to go?

Phil M Jones (55:36):
easiest place to go is to go philmjones.com or
exactlywhattosay.com.
That will point you in thedirection of any of the
adventures you want to go moreon.
If you've enjoyed thisconversation and you wanna pick
it up and share something thatyou found useful or ask a
question about something youneed some more insights on, come
to Instagram.
Come to@philmJonesuk you can letme know that you found me on

(55:56):
Mike's Random podcast when hewas up here in Hudson in the
studio, and we can pick up theconversation.
We'll be left off here today.

Mike Goldman (56:03):
Beautiful.
Well, I always say if you want agreat company, you've gotta have
a great leadership team.
Phil, thanks for helping us getthere today.

Phil M Jones (56:09):
Thank you for having me.