November 25, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode of The Better Leadership Team Show, I talk with Danielle Baldwin, author of Sparking Greatness, about how leaders can create inspired, high-performing teams. We explore the difference between motivation and inspiration, the five elements of truly inspiring stories (Courage, Hardship, Authenticity, Resilience, and Transformation), and how leaders can cultivate trust, vulnerability, and stillness to spark greatness in themselves and others.
Danielle also shares actionable tools—from spaciousness and self-forgetfulness to storytelling and self-care—that help leaders shift from burnout to inspiration.
Thanks for listening! Connect with us at mike-goldman.com/blog and on Instagram@mikegoldmancoach and on YouTube @Mikegoldmancoach
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Episode Transcript
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Danielle (00:02):
inspired employees are 250% more productive than a
satisfied employee, which as youand I know, I mean our
organizations of the people thatwe work with.
I mean, wouldn't we love to havean entire organization of just
satisfied.
Not even.
Right.
Not even inspired.
So when we're looking to inspireand share that company mission
(00:24):
and that company vision that youwere so eloquently talking about
earlier and making sure that theleadership could do that as
well.
There are these five elementsthat we find in inspirational
stories.
Mike Goldman (00:41):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the
(01:01):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
Mike (01:16):
Danielle Baldwin helps leaders find their spark as a
coach, facilitator, and authorof Sparking Greatness.
She works with CEOs, businessowners, and creatives who want
to lead with courage, clarity,and inspiration.
I can't wait to dive in.
Danielle, welcome to the show.
Danielle (01:36):
Thank you so much, Mike.
It's good to be here.
Mike (01:39):
Yeah, looking forward to it.
So first question as always isfrom all of your experience,
what do you believe is the onemost important characteristic of
a great leadership team?
Danielle (01:54):
When I work with members and I look at their
leadership teams, for me themost important characteristic is
trust.
So we can build a lot from afoundation of trust, but if we
don't have that very bottomlayer.
We're not building anything.
They have to have trust in theroom in order to build something
great.
Mike (02:13):
And when you say trust, is it trust that people are going
to do what they say they aregoing to do?
Or is it kind of thattask-based, I'm gonna do what I
say I'm gonna do, or is it morethat vulnerability?
I can say anything.
We can give and receivefeedback.
Like what?
(02:34):
How do you define trust?
Danielle (02:36):
I the latter.
So certainly there's an elementof Hey, if you tell me to do
this thing, I'm gonna do thisthing.
But more importantly, it's thevulnerability in the room.
It's the openness in the room,it's the freedom to fail.
That's the, you know, in theLencioni lexicon of all of his
beautiful work.
But it really is about, are we ateam first and then we have our
(02:59):
separate fiefdoms, but like, howare we supporting each other?
Like we are the family and wetrust each other, and then
building the organization out ontop of that foundation.
Mike (03:11):
Excellent, excellent.
and you'll notice that, whenDanielle gave her answer, she
used the term members, she saidwith her members.
And what I didn't say as partof, your intro is that you are a
Vistage.
Chair, and I'm a big fan ofVistage, Vistage certified
speakers.
So we'll get that, we'll getthat Vistage plug in there.
But what that means is, for youlistening that Danielle, it not
(03:34):
only coaches, CEOs and leaders,but just.
Chairing a Vistage group.
you get to see those issuesfront and center, all the time.
So I think that's a greatbackground to have.
so I wanna dive in and I wannatalk about your book, your new
book, Sparking Greatness.
Talk a little bit about, well, Iguess I'll ask what, why this
(03:55):
book, you've had so muchexperience, this is the book you
decided to write.
Why.
Danielle (04:01):
I am one of those people.
I believe that the books choose.
So there are these things inlife that choose you.
I feel like your pets chooseyou.
I feel like musical instrumentschoose you.
I kind of feel like houseschoose you, and I definitely
feel like books choose you.
So I had no.
I was not on the inspirationparade.
That was not a thing for me.
(04:21):
I was very happily working on afiction project that I was very
happy with, and I had aone-to-one with a member.
It was the middle of thepandemic.
It was July.
So everybody's sitting at theirkitchen table, right?
So I'm talking with him and he'stelling me the story about the
fact that he just did skiplevels with his entire
organization.
(04:42):
So he said, Dee, you know, weasked them these three questions
at the end of the meetings.
So they met with their directmanager first, and we said, do
you understand your role?
Do you know where the company'sheaded?
and how are you feeling?
Right?
Because it's kind of wacky.
And he said when they met withtheir direct manager, the
answers were, yes, I understand.
Yes, I understand where thecompany's going, and I'm feeling
(05:02):
very motivated.
And I was like, yeah, I got it.
Great.
And he was like, but then to aperson, when they met with me,
the first two answers were thesame, and the third one was,
they felt inspired.
And I was like, huh.
He's like, why do you think thatis?
And I was like, I don't reallyknow.
And he was like, well, what isinspiration anyway?
(05:24):
And I was like, I don't know.
And then I fell down this rabbithole for a really long time and
then I popped back out of it.
So that is how the book came tobe.
I just got really curiousbecause we so often do throw
that word of inspiration around,and I don't, to me at least, it
wasn't really clearly defined.
And then, I mean, you've had amoment of inspiration.
(05:45):
Yeah.
You know what?
That lightning bolt, absolutely.
It's a beautiful thing.
And so then I was thinking tomyself, well, what if we could
bring more inspiration into theworld?
I mean, I feel like we certainlyneed it.
So how would we do that?
And how would we bring it to aworkplace where only 1.2% of
people feel inspired at work?
Like, how freaking sad is that?
(06:06):
So what could we do?
So that's how this thing, thisis how the party of the
inspiration party started.
Mike (06:12):
What is the difference?
you could feel the difference inthe word motivated versus
inspired and inspiration.
Certainly, in my mind, that'sgot a lot more heat than just
saying I'm motivated.
But what is the differencebetween the two?
Danielle (06:27):
So there are a lot.
So the first thing that I wannasay is sometimes I feel like
motivation gets a bad rap and itshouldn't because they're like
the Wonder Twins.
Do you remember that cartoon
Mike (06:37):
I do one to twin powers, activate shape.
one was the shape of the otherwas form the younger folks
listening have no idea whatwe're talking about, but that
was very cool.
Danielle (06:48):
Yes.
So inspiration and motivationare like the wonder twins.
So they can do, they can fightthe bad guys by themselves, but
they are far more powerful whenthey're together.
So inspiration by definition.
If we were to talk to apsychologist.
And we would say, define, thereare these two psychologists,
Thrash and Elliot, that havedone a lot of work in the
(07:09):
inspiration realm.
And they would say inspirationis defined by three
characteristics.
the first is that, it's sparkedspontaneity, meaning it hits us
like kablam, right?
It's the, you're out for a runand you get this zap of
inspiration.
The second, thing that theywould say is, that it's a,
there's an approach, motivationto it, which in psychology
(07:31):
essentially means that you aremotivated to do something.
There's action.
And there are two types ofinspiration.
There's inspired by and inspiredto for, in this conversation
we're just gonna talk aboutinspired to.
And then the, last element isthis feeling of transcendence.
Right.
It's that opening in your chest.
You get this greaterperspective, you get this like
(07:53):
astounding level of clarity.
You're like, oh my gosh, this isclear.
For the first time in a longtime, motivation is beautiful,
but it's far more the way that Idescribe, it's more terrestrial.
So inspiration is like up onthis mountaintop.
It's this vision, it's thisclarity and motivation is kind
(08:13):
of the trudging backup to themountaintop that you just saw.
It's far more based in logicthan it is heart-based.
and it can be motivated by fearor kind of by joy.
Inspiration by nature is anabsence of fear.
When we think about thosemoments, right, it's'cause
there's that limitless qualitymotivation can be like, okay, so
(08:36):
lemme give you an example.
I just went to my niece'swedding and I wanted to look
good, right?
For my niece's wedding.
So I could be inspired to say,Hey, I wanna look good.
I wanna feel good in my body.
I wanna have a day of joy, or Ican be inspired by fear.
Hey, I don't wanna look likecrap in these photos, and be
like the pudgy one.
Right?
(08:56):
So motivation has these twodifferent possible ways that we
get into it, and inspirationdoes not, but they kind of need
each other.
If we're gonna thread this wholething along.
Mike (09:08):
That's super helpful and I know one of the things that,
that I always communicate.
To the leaders that I work withwhen they're talk, when we're
talking about their companyvision, and certainly there's
gotta be clarity around acompany vision, but I always say
that's not enough.
as a leader, you need clarity.
(09:29):
You also need everyone aroundthe table to understand it,
understand what that vision is,but even that's not enough.
And then, where I go, which as Isay, I believe leaders around
that table, the seniorleadership table, they need to
be evangelists of that vision.
And to me now hearing how youdefine.
(09:50):
Inspiration versus motivation.
That to me is what is much moreabout inspiration than it is and
again, it is both, but I thinkthat's much more about having a
vision that inspires you to takeaction.
Danielle (10:07):
Mm-hmm.
Mike (10:08):
Love that.
Love that.
so is that what sparkinggreatness, that what the book is
all about?
It's really just finding thatinspiration or is sparking
greatness bigger than that?
Danielle (10:19):
It.
It's kind of split into twodifferent parts, so the first or
three different parts.
The first part is really givingyou these definitions of what
inspiration is, what motivationis, how do they work, how are
they different.
The second part, there are threeprecursors.
To a state of inspiration.
'cause we know it's fleeting bynature, right?
So it's kind of like field ofdreams.
(10:40):
If you build it, they will come.
Not quite the same withinspiration'cause you gotta
build it and sometimes it showsup and sometimes it doesn't.
But these three precursors are,spaciousness.
So that's like physical andmental space.
So often when you and I, we goon a retreat or we go to a
conference, we are more likelyto be inspired because we have
(11:01):
both physical and mental spacefrom our day to day.
So that's the first one.
The second one is spaciousness.
So when we are able to kind ofcreate this, sense of
spaciousness physically andmentally, then we're able to
quiet our mental chatter andeliminate our distractions.
And then the third precursor isself forgetfulness.
(11:23):
So we so often find that incommunity, it's when we take
that giant spotlight that is.
Constantly on ourselves and weshift it outward.
So that's the second part of thebook.
The third part is about creatingan inspirational narrative,
which can be really helpful forleaders.
it can be really helpful foranybody.
When I read through tons andtons of inspirational stories,
(11:47):
they're connected in these fiveways.
They each have these elements,and I, it's the acronym is
chart.
Mike (11:53):
Well, hold on.
Be before you go to thosenarratives.
and I'm taking notes as we'retalking, so we're gonna get back
to it.
I wanna go back to the, I wannago back to the precursors and
dig into that a little bitfirst.
So, and I screwed up'cause Ithink I wrote spaciousness
twice.
What's the first one is
Danielle (12:09):
one is spaciousness, so you
Mike (12:10):
and what's the second one?
Danielle (12:12):
Stillness.
Mike (12:13):
Stillness.
I put, okay, so the second isstillness.
So spaciousness, which isphysical and mental stillness.
And then the, and the last onewas
Danielle (12:25):
Self forgetfulness.
Mike (12:27):
that's what I wrote down, self forgetfulness.
So as a leader, how do we bringthose precursors?
To life.
How do we set the foundation andthen we'll talk about the
narrative, but how do we makethose real?
How should I be thinking aboutthose three things as a leader
in terms of what actions I oughtto be taking?
Danielle (12:48):
So the good news is in part two of this book, and I'll
go through a few of these, thereare exercises at the end of
every chapter for you as aleader and then for your team.
So, when we look atspaciousness, I wanna talk a
little bit about mentalspaciousness.
'cause physical spaciousness islike, I got a D.
I have a member who taught methis term called helium hand,
(13:09):
which I love.
Right.
So it's the, you're in themeeting and everybody's looking
around, or you're at a boardmeeting, or you're at the PTA
and somebody says, we have thisimportant initiative, Mike,
who's gonna take it on?
And you hear this cheep cheeplittle crickets.
Nobody's doing anything.
And then all of a sudden you seethis happen, you don't even know
it's gonna happen, and your handis going up like it's full of
(13:32):
helium.
And so many of us have heliumhand, which is not helpful.
Because I think in this day andage, we're inundated with so
much.
So one of the exercises we talkabout is you sitting down with
your team and having adiscussion about the impact of
your culture.
Of Yes, how is it impacting yourproductivity?
(13:53):
How is it impacting the team'sability to get things done?
What are we looking at here?
So it's things like that whenwe're talking about
spaciousness.
Stillness is about, creatingdowntime during the day,
allowing that culturally, maybetaking meetings outside, right?
But, really giving people thespace to be still, because as
(14:16):
you move up in an organization,especially, and I'm sure you see
this with your clients.
Stillness is not an optionanymore.
The level of strategic thinkingthat you need to do in higher
levels of organizations demandsit.
and there are a ton of examplesof this.
Doris Kearns Goodwin wrote anentire book, she wrote this book
(14:36):
called Leadership and TurbulentTimes, and she compared the
presidencies of both Roosevelt'sLincoln and LBJ.
And in it, one of the thingsthat she talks about.
All of them had turbulent timesand each of them knew the power
of stillness that they neededand took time out.
So Teddy Roosevelt is likecruising around on a horse in
(14:56):
the bad lands, right?
Everybody has their escapehatch, but the stillness is
really important in order for usto be able to get a moment of
inspiration, to be able to getthe clarity, to be able to get
the perspective.
And then self forgetfulness canbe like a community or a team
day.
It's how do we take our.
(15:17):
That spotlight, like I said,that we always have trained on
ourselves and flip it out.
It's why so often, in communityis the easiest way for us to see
that
Mike (16:47):
I love that.
and that sounds you know, whenit comes to the stillness and
the mental space is somewhatsometimes why we have the best
ideas in the shower, right.
When we're kind of by ourselvesand we're not trying to think of
a great idea for me.
My what, when I get the most.
I don't wanna say the mostinspired, but when I get the
inspirational ideas, typicallyfor me comes on a long walk.
(17:12):
I'll take a four mile walk and Iwill come back and have recorded
15 new ideas on my phone.
Just'cause as I'm walking,something will pop in my head.
So I see that happen all thetime.
Danielle (17:25):
So you're giving yourself both the mental and the
physical spaciousness.
Right.
And then what I tell people iswe're so accustomed to being
productive all the time, whichmakes me a little nuts.
But don't take your, take yourphone, but don't be on it.
you don't have to listen to anaudio book.
You don't have to listen to apodcast.
You don't have to be readingyour email.
Like just go and drop into thestillness.
And there's also this misnomerfor stillness.
(17:46):
I do not mean physical stillnesslike.
What I do mean I have a, ahumming rule.
So you need to be able toparticipate in an activity
that's gonna give you mentalstillness and still hum.
So if you are too physically.
Exerted, you don't have thespace for the inspiration.
Like I used to do CrossFit.
I was freaking terrible atCrossFit.
(18:08):
Oh my goodness.
But, it wouldn't, it's not agood place for me to be still.
'cause I was just kept thinkingall the time, like, how do I not
die?
Like how do I not die in thisworkout?
How do I not throw up in thisworkout?
How do I not die?
So whether it's running, you canbe a great runner, but you're
not sprinting.
Right.
You can be.
Gardening.
You can be playing guitar, youcan be cleaning, you can be
(18:29):
doing all of these things.
It's why it's on a walk.
It's why it's when we're in theshower, it's why we're standing
at the kitchen doing dishes.
So we have activity that allowsour brain to kind of slide into
this, static mode and give usspace for inspiration to fill
in.
But we're not so overexerted inour movement that there isn't
space for anything except for usto be like.
(18:53):
So I think it's important.
Mike (18:54):
Love it, love it, And it just makes sense.
I don't think about it that way,but that's the way it's always
happened for me.
So now let's go back where youstarted going and go to the
inspired narrative.
So we've gotta give ourselvesthese precursors.
For inspiration, but now, andthe narrative, what does that
mean?
the is the narrative about onceyou have that inspiration, how
(19:16):
you communicate it.
Danielle (19:17):
I think especially in leaders, I'm gonna backtrack for
one second.
There was this super cool studythat came out in 2015 that Bain
Company did, and theyessentially created a pyramid,
just like Maslow's Hierarchy,but they did it with employees.
And so what they said was theysplit them into these three
different levels.
So the first level of employeedown at the bottom was a
(19:39):
satisfied employee.
And they had their basics needscovered, physically and mentally
safe, right?
Had the tools that they needed,felt rewarded and appreciated at
work.
So that's satisfied.
When we move up, we go toengaged.
So an engaged employee has allof those, but they feel like
they're part of this incredibleteam.
(19:59):
They have autonomy.
They feel like they can do whatthey need.
They understand their impact onthe organization.
And then this top tier is aninspired employee.
An inspired employee is inspirednot only by the company's
mission and vision, but also byits leadership.
And what they found in this BainCompany study is that inspired
employees are 250% moreproductive than a satisfied
(20:24):
employee, which as you and Iknow, I mean our organizations
of the people that we work with.
I mean, wouldn't we love to havean entire organization of just
satisfied.
Not even.
Right.
Not even inspired.
So when we're looking to inspireand share that company mission
and that company vision that youwere so eloquently talking about
earlier and making sure that theleadership could do that as
(20:48):
well.
There are these five elementsthat we find in inspirational
stories.
So the first one is courage.
having fear and doing it anyway.
So what does that look like?
What, when were times were badand we were still able to push
through?
So, you know, sometimes when wesee, somebody and they just get
listed on the stock exchange andthey ring the bell and we're
(21:09):
like, oh, wow, man, that'spretty cool.
That's inspiring, but how muchmore inspiring is it when we
know that they almost facedbankruptcy.
Or that, you know, things wenthorribly awry.
It gets great that you've gottenthere, but there's more
inspiration if we know thatthere's courage, which gets me
to the second, which is H, whichis hardship.
When things are too easy.
(21:30):
That's not really that inspiring'cause we're like, Hey, I can do
that.
I do that every day.
A is for authenticity.
So, the best example I can giveof authenticity is Lance
Armstrong.
The world was wildly inspired byLance Armstrong, great courage
in the face of debilitatingdisease, this amazing comeback
(21:54):
until all of a sudden weweren't.
'cause the doping scandal brokeand the authenticity of his
recovery just fell right out ofthe bottom of that resilience is
the fourth element.
So it's not just somebody likelifting a car off of a child.
That happens once.
It's the ability to come backagain and to face those
(22:14):
challenges.
And then the last one istransformation.
So when we're, talking aboutthat from a leadership
perspective, the transformationis what's ahead of us?
who will the organizationbecome?
Who will we become?
Who are we?
So if you look at any trulyinspirational story, it's gonna
have all five of those elements.
Mike (22:33):
So let's make this real.
If I am a.
If I'm a leader and I want to,my goal is to inspire my team
around our vision as a company.
How do these all.
Fit together.
Like I understand the five, butif I'm saying here's our vision,
(22:57):
does that mean like, how do Iget, if I'm talking about
vision, how does hardship becomea part of that?
How does resilience become apart of that?
how do I work these into thatkind of inspiring communication
about vision?
Danielle (23:11):
So when I think of it, I look back at something that's
happened in the organizationthat was either a milestone, a
growth milestone, or a toughmilestone.
So remember when we had thiscompetitor entered the market?
Remember when we launched thisproduct and it didn't go the way
that we wanted it to.
and some organizations rememberwhen we had the, this cutback or
something that was challengingand hard because you're
(23:33):
reinforcing the resilience inthat.
And here we are, and here we aretoday and now we know where
we're headed, right?
So it's a little bit of a mix ofusing your rear view mirror in
order to look through thewindshield.
You're looking up at the rearview to say, look at these
things that we've done so far.
Look at where we've beencourageous, where, we made a
(23:53):
choice and stood in the marketfor something, or our product
stood for something or we didsomething, that might not have
been popular or, was difficultfor us to do.
And then talking about that,because again, if employees feel
like it's been Easy Street thewhole time and you are asking
them to do something difficult,you just gotta be like, remember
(24:14):
when we did that thing?
That was hard?
Oh yeah, I do.
We can do that again.
We can get back up to thatmountaintop.
Mike (24:24):
That's a great challenge for me, for other leaders
because I think we come up witha vision or even we collaborate
with our team on a vision, andthen we wanna go and tell people
what that vision is.
but what you're helping me torealize is I think as leaders we
can fall into the trap.
We may already be inspired byit, so we think others will too.
(24:48):
So we can say, you know, our bighairy audacious goal 10 years
from now is we're gonna land onthe moon and we're gonna, and
we're think others should beinspired.
But what you're challenging, Ithink all leaders to think about
is you've gotta put that in thecontext of a story.
and you know, why is thissomething we should be doing?
And who are we to think we cando this?
(25:10):
What have we done before thatprove, you know, we can do this?
why should we go do this?
How are we get, take it and makeit a story?
Using these five elements, Ithink is something most leaders
don't do, which is of course whysomeone like you needed to write
this book.
but I think most of us don't.
Turn our vision into stories.
We just say, here's our vision.
(25:31):
Is that your experience as well?
Danielle (25:33):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I used to do that too,right?
Because I was so inspired by itand I was like, oh, this is
great.
And then, I don't know if you'veever had, had this experience I
certainly have where you walkout and you share it with the
team and you just get like the.
You're like, oh, this isn'tlanding very well.
So there are two elements of it.
Like when we look atstorytelling, there's a story.
(25:55):
There are different stories fordifferent audiences.
There's the story for our clientwhere our client is the hero.
There's the story for ouremployees, we're the employees
or the hero.
They understand kind of wherewe're headed.
when I look at inspiration at anindividual level in an
organization, it's showing it'smirroring to an employee.
The highest version of them thatyou see.
(26:16):
It's saying, this is yourmountaintop, this is what I see
you could do.
And so often the employee's Idon't even see that.
So from a leadershipperspective, if we can do that
for an organization like, Heyguys, this is what we're capable
of.
We could totally do this.
this could be us.
then I think it can be wildlyinspirational.
And I'd say one more thing aboutthis, this goes all the way back
(26:38):
to our hiring practices.
That's why I encourage mymembers to make sure that they
have some sort of culturalquestion that they can dig
around for in an interview.
Inspiration is also centered onshared visions and goals, so
I'll use a personal examplefirst.
So let's say Mike, you've got agood friend who's training for
(27:00):
an Ironman.
I mean pretty, that's likephysically pretty brutal.
If you are also training for anIron Man or you have some sort
of physical goal, you're like,oh, wow, I'm inspired.
I'm inspired by my friend Sam,who is doing all these things.
Now, Mike, if you're like, Hey,that's not my jam.
You might be inspired by, butnot inspired too.
(27:22):
So the same thing is true whenwe look at an organization and
we are finding more and more.
A lot of the research is comingout that we're seeing Gen Z as
far more, of course wanna becompensated like any normal
human.
But, the mission and vision ofan organization is far more
important to them than it hasbeen for other generations.
(27:42):
And so being able to clearlyarticulate that and make sure
employees on the way in the doorare aligned with the mission and
vision will make it so mucheasier for you as a leadership
team to actually inspire them.
There's only so far that they'regonna be able to go, as we saw
from that Bain Company, study.
If they are not aligned with thecompany's mission and
(28:03):
leadership, we can't ever reallyget them to that inspired top
tier.
Mike (28:09):
Yeah, I see that.
It.
You know, my, my daughter is 29years old, so that's not gen.
Is that's millennial Gen Y.
I forget all the different, butthat's not Gen Z.
Gen Z is younger than that.
Right.
Danielle (28:22):
I think she might, I don't.
She might.
Maybe she's on the cusp.
I don't know either.
Mike (28:26):
You know what,
Danielle (28:26):
don't know her
Mike (28:27):
it doesn't matter.
she's 29.
Believe it at that.
But I, you know, back when Iwas.
I just turned 60 this year andback when I was in my twenties
and I worked for a bigmanagement consulting firm,
which is now Accenture.
but they weren't calledAccenture back then.
But my attitude was you couldbeat me, whip me, kick me, work
(28:51):
me 24 hours a day.
I'm making partner and I wantthe big house, and I want the
nice car, and I think it's soeasy for.
Folks from my generation, andI'm not baby boomer, I'm like
the oldest gen Xes out there.
I was born in 65, but it's easyto look and say, well, these
kids today don't wanna workhard.
(29:12):
But I actually think my attitudeback then was not very healthy.
Danielle (29:17):
No.
Mike (29:17):
like, I just want more and more.
and it didn't matter how I wastreated or how long I needed to
work.
And I think, you know, I knowwith my daughter it takes a lot
more to inspire her now.
She's a really hard worker.
She's really smart.
She does really well.
You know, it, you know, at herjob.
Is she inspired by what shedoes?
(29:38):
Is she, you know, she does itbecause it's a job.
I think it takes a lot more forgood or bad, I'm not judging it.
It takes a lot more to inspirethese folks.
And I think, you know, part ofit, you know, I've been focused
my questions on things like theinspiring vision, but.
What you're helping me realizeas well, and I think this goes
back to the trust in your answerto the question on most
(30:02):
important thing for a greatleadership team, is when I look
at the five different narrativesand I wrote, you know, courage,
hardship, authenticity,resilience, transformation, I
think of that as a leader, Ineed to be comfortable enough.
With myself and with my teamthat I could share all those
(30:23):
things about me.
I could remember years ago I wasdoing a small speech for a
chamber.
Way, way back.
And I remember telling a storyabout my son and my son who's 31
now.
he has Asperger's syndrome.
He was much younger back then.
(30:44):
It was really a challenge forus.
And I told a pretty emotionalstory about my son and frankly,
what a crappy dad I was for along time.
And I had someone come up to meafter that speech and say, I
wanna work with you.
And I said, oh, well, and I, youknow, I was a coach at the time,
but I did more one-on-onecoaching.
(31:05):
I said, oh.
What, you know, what makes yousay that?
How did you make that decision?
She said, if you can get up infront of a room like this and be
as vulnerable as you were, andshe actually used the word
inspired.
She said, it's vulnerable as youwere.
That inspired me and I just, Isaid, I have to work with you.
(31:26):
And it's just, and it's becauseof how vulnerable I was, so I
think it's so easy, and I canremember when COVID hit and we
were all learning how to workremotely for the first time.
Danielle (31:38):
Mm-hmm.
Mike (31:38):
Is I found the CEO.
Some of the CEOs I worked withfelt like they needed to be
Superman or Superwoman.
They had to show strengthbecause everybody else is
nervous.
We don't know what's going onwith the business.
We don't know what's going on.
We're with our health with theworld, so I need to put my
superhero cape on and talk.
nothing but pos.
(31:59):
Everything's gonna be great, andI'm getting along fine, showing
no vulnerability
Danielle (32:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mike (32:06):
and.
Where, what they needed to doand what I helped them to do,
and now you're helping meunderstand it more, is I'm like,
you've gotta take that superherocape off and you've gotta be
real for your people so theyfeel like they could be real
right back.
So I think these, you know,these five narratives are
narratives in how you tell astory, but also narratives in
(32:27):
how vulnerable you need to beabout yourself.
Danielle (32:31):
I totally agree.
I think that authenticityelement.
It's so funny that you use capesat the door.
'cause it's one of the things Itell my members when they come
into a Vistage meeting, I'mlike, leave that cape at the
door.
I do not need that thing on youtoday.
You can just hang that thingright up and then you can put it
back on when you leave.
But when you come in, no cape.
and so often we do, we feellike, I feel like especially Gen
(32:52):
Xers, right?
Because we were the latchkeykids and all of these other
reasons, but there was thisvision of leadership.
That was very like, you know,we're strong and we're gonna do
it.
And it doesn't resonate nearlyas much as if, when you can show
up and say, Hey, I know thatit's crazy out there.
I know that we.
(33:13):
I work with some smallerbusinesses and so there's a lot
more fluctuation in cash flowand it can be really scary
sometimes.
And the employees know, right?
They know what's going on.
And being able to shareauthentically without terrifying
anybody.
Of course, you're not gonna goin front of your employees and
start crying, but, being able toshow up like an authentic leader
and say, Hey, here are thethings I'm gonna, I'm gonna give
(33:34):
it to you straight.
This is what's going on, andthese are the things that we're
gonna do to be able to get outof it.
But when we don't acknowledgeand we don't show up
authentically, we're kind oftrashing our ability to be
inspirational because peopledon't trust.
People don't trust it.
People have better spidey sensethan we give them credit for.
They're like, yeah, that's aload of crap.
(33:56):
So,
Mike (33:57):
Yeah, and I think what it tells us, you know, one of the.
One of the questions I thoughtabout when I was preparing for
our discussion, and I was gonnaask it as a question, but I
think I've already got theanswer, is, you know it, how do
we spark greatness in others andinspire others when.
Sometimes we're not feelinggreat about our business, right?
(34:20):
I mean, you and I both in whatyou do as a coach, as a business
chair, what I do, coachingleadership teams, we wanna run
across leaders all the time whoare overwhelmed.
Who are starting to fall out oflove with their business, who
are, you know, really have tostart guarding against burnout.
(34:41):
And it's you know, how can Ispark greatness in other people?
How can I be inspirational whenI'm feeling that way?
And it's, you know, what I'mrealizing is it's not about
faking it.
and no, you're not gonna cry andcurl up in a fetal position on a
zoom call, you know, in front offolks, but it's not about.
You know, totally hiding howyou're feeling and just being
(35:01):
rah rah.
it's about being real andauthentic with people, and
people will be inspired by that.
They're not gonna be inspired byrah rah bullshit.
That that's just you covering upwhat's really going on in the
business.
Danielle (35:18):
Yeah, there's this, my mom taught me this moons and
moons ago, very popular in therecovery community.
And she would tell, she told mewhen I was in high school, she
was like, she took a drag of hercigarette.
She's nobody ever died.
A terminal uniqueness is whatshe told me.
And at the time I was like, whatare you talking about?
But I feel like.
(35:39):
That is such an important,there's this, the other concept
that I'm fascinated by isbelonging and the importance of
belonging.
And I think vulnerability andbeing authentic really gives us
that sense because so many, sooften, especially in this world,
we walk around and we feel likewe're the only ones and it's
only ever happened to us.
(35:59):
And, I don't feel that way.
And so it can be reallyempowering for your team who.
Maybe feeling that same way,like that person in the
audience, I was like, oh mygosh.
that really hit me.
being able to share thatauthenticity because then people
don't feel alone.
They actually feel moretogether.
It's like one of the powers ofone of the reasons I love
working with Vistage and workingwith Vistage as a peer group.
(36:21):
You get a bunch of CEOs in thereand they think well, I'm the
only one who has, and then theybring something into the room
and it's oh, look at all theseother people that have done the
same thing.
So I think that it is reallyimportant, and one of the things
that I talk about in the book,it's funny you say this, the
first part of section two,because I know you saw it, I
certainly saw it post pandemic.
(36:43):
I saw so many not overwhelmed,they had pushed into burnout.
I cannot tell you how manyburned out leaders I had.
Because they were kind ofcarrying the weight of the
world.
And the way that I describeburnout, like burnout is your
arms are full of groceries.
You got your car keys, a coffeeand a dog leash and you're like
(37:04):
staggering around to try andbalance it and then that's
overwhelm and burnout is whenyou finally faceplant.
And I've seen so many faceplanted and it's really hard to
be inspired to get to thatmountaintop if you are 20
leagues under the sea.
So a lot of inspiration isshowing up authentically, but
(37:26):
it's also putting time intoyourself as a leader because
there's only so long an employeecan look at you and they can see
the bags under your eyes andthey can see you army crawling
in and outta the office everyday, and also trust.
So it is, it's taking, it's.
Flipping the paradigm that Ithink we have as leaders that we
may have grown up with, likejust grin and bear it.
Just, you know, get throughanother day and shifting the,
(37:49):
how do I take care of myself asa person?
How do I give myselfspaciousness, stillness, and
self forgetfulness so that I canthen provide that for my
employees?
Mike (37:58):
Yeah.
And I think what it goes backto, I'll go back to that
hierarchy you mentioned earlier,where it's satisfied, engaged,
inspired, and inspired.
Folks were to, was it a Bain,and company study?
I think you said 250% moreproductive.
It just makes sense, right?
We, when you think of the overoverwhelm, and then further than
that, the burnout, I thinksometimes.
(38:19):
As leaders, we could fall intothat trap because we feel like
we're in it alone, especiallyCEOs or founders.
No one cares as much as I do.
It's all on me.
All of the complexity, all ofthe pressure, all of that's on
me.
But if we can as leaders, notonly.
(38:40):
Inspire others, but surroundourselves with people that
inspire us and give, and createthat, you know, through those
precursors you talked aboutthrough the narratives, to be
able to create an environmentwhere that inspiration goes back
and forth between leader andteam members.
To me, you know, that's part ofwhere that 250% comes from,
(39:01):
because as a CEO, I'm gonna beway more.
inspired, I'm gonna be way moreproductive, way less chance of
me burning out if I've got ateam around me that is, is
challenging me to be at my bestand inspiring me to be at my
best.
and I think for a lot ofleaders, they have very mediocre
(39:23):
teams around them and they'renot.
I don't know if all of them seehow big a problem that is.
I always say good enough is notgood enough.
You know, if you've got a bunchof people around you that are
just fine, they're doing goodenough not to be fired, then
you're slowly killing yourselfand your company.
(39:45):
We need great people around usthat inspire us, but I think too
many leaders are they're willingto settle for mediocre.
Danielle (39:54):
I agree.
I think they're willing tosettle for mediocre, and I feel
like a lot of what I also see,which is like.
A lovely trait of loyalty, butthe other common phrase of what
got you here won't get youthere.
So you have somebody that was agreat bookkeeper or even a great
controller, but you're gettingto the point where you need a
(40:16):
CFO and that person doesn't havethat skillset, and so they get
to a point of grow, right?
We get to the Peter principle,whether it's through their role
in the organization or thescaling of the organization and
their ability to either keep upor not.
And they wanna keep them aroundbecause I never would've gotten
here without them.
And that, while that's certainlytrue, if you wanna break the 10
(40:37):
million mark, if you wanna breakthe 50 million mark, if you
wanna break the a hundredmillion mark, right?
There are these distinctmilestones that we see in the
scalability of an organization,and it requires different
talent.
So it can be really hard forpeople.
And I understand that.
I understand how hard it is, andI think also as leaders, we have
a tendency to have blind spots.
I know I had my blind spot.
(40:58):
I feel like all of us have hadone or two of those.
So it can be really hard.
And sometimes it's not from likeconflict avoidant.
Well, there's some in that, ofthat in there, but some of it
can be like, well, this personwas an A player for the first
seven years, 10 years of theorganization.
You're like, yeah, you're right.
How are they doing right now?
Oh, and you're like, oh, we needto talk about that,
Mike (41:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
what do you find, you mentionedblind spots and we talked about
a whole bunch of things leadersshould be doing.
What do you find when you workwith leaders on this?
what's the hardest part orwhat's the biggest obstacle in
their way to really sparkinggreatness in themselves, in
their team, in their companies?
(41:44):
Is there one.
Biggest mistake leaders make orone big obstacle in their way.
Danielle (41:50):
The biggest obstacle that, well, everybody, we're all
our own biggest obstacle.
Right?
And the biggest one that I seeis.
Especially, the leaders that Iwork with is they are so servant
leadership focused that theydon't give themselves any time.
And then what happens, forbetter or for worse is the
(42:14):
organization will mirror whereyou are.
And so they're out of gas andthen they're not putting any
time into themselves.
and then the organization likestarts to tilt over a little
bit, but it's not prioritizing.
Themselves as leaders andunderstanding that if they put
this time into growingthemselves as leaders, that it
will trickle down.
(42:35):
So there I'll say, you know,what's your professional
development budget for yourteam?
Oh, it's a zillion dollars.
I wanna make sure, and then Iwill ask, so what are you doing
for you?
I listen to podcasts, which isgreat.
You should, but what are elseare you doing for you?
That's really about it.
So it's really about taking thetime.
To do the self-development work,to make time that you're getting
(42:58):
some spaciousness, stillness,self forgetfulness time so that
you can come up and kind of dothe Wayne Gretzky of staying,
keeping where the puck of yourcompany is going.
You need the time and space todo it
Mike (43:13):
and that includes, I don't know how many leaders I talk to,
and I'm sure you do as well.
And it's almost, sometimes it's,it's like they, they're prideful
about it.
I haven't taken a vacation infive years.
don't be proud of that.
That's messed up.
Danielle (43:29):
yeah, that
Mike (43:30):
But we see it, I see it all the time.
And that's.
That's such a great example ofnot taking time for yourself,
not finding time to take abreath and plus the fact that
sometimes you gotta get outtaout of the hair of your team and
let them just go do their joband prove they could do it
without you.
But that's just one example.
Like t take a vacation figure,you know?
(43:50):
And then, and if you don't havethe team around you that allows
you to take a vacation, thenrealize you got the wrong team
around you and take some action.
what's one if we were to leavefolks with one thing that when
they're done with this one thingthey can just go do, to kind of
get started on one of thesethings, like what is one thing a
leader could do right afterlistening to this podcast?
Danielle (44:13):
I would encourage, like where I want everybody to
start is just to start gettingin the habit.
And one of the things I talkabout in the book is like
mentally giving yourselfpermission.
There's a whole nother thingabout that.
But I want you to start timeblocking stillness time.
I don't care how long it is, noless than 15 minutes, but I want
(44:33):
a few blocks during the weekwhere you are giving yourself
permission, where you areclearly communicating with your
team that this is what you weredoing.
So if somebody rolls by youroffice and they see you staring
out the window, it's not theknock time, right?
So you are giving yourself sometime.
and then I want you to come backand figure out what, how that
has impacted your leadership,how that's impacted the
(44:55):
organization.
When you are just do me thefavor of giving yourself a few
times a week and will increaseit over time and tell me how
that impacts you and yourorganization.
And I guarantee you if you dothat and you begin to build a
habit around it, right?
You have flexible discipline, soit's not, it doesn't have to be
(45:15):
the same time every day.
You don't have to be in the samespot.
It doesn't have to be the sameamount of time.
But if you are consistent withthat, how much more often are
you being inspired because youare giving yourself the time and
space for the difficult, thesolution to the difficult
problem you have to the where amI headed as a leader, where is
(45:35):
the organization headed?
You have time and space for thatto be able to come into your
brain.
You have built the field ofdreams, right?
And now we will see shoeless JoeJackson walk outta the corn
fields, but you gotta build afield
Mike (45:49):
And a lot of people when they think stillness, think, oh,
you want me to meditate?
I guess it could be, but itcould also be stare out the
window, go take a walk, youknow, do something.
in addition to your work withyour Vistage group, how else do
you work with clients to helpthem execute on these things?
Danielle (46:08):
I work, I do some private coaching with,
individuals, not in a peer groupsetting.
I do keynote speaking.
I do workshop facilitation.
So I do all the things.
Mike (46:18):
All the, you do all the things.
Wow.
where's the best place forpeople to go if they wanna find
out more about you?
Your coaching, your speaking,your book.
where should we tell people togo?
Danielle (46:32):
best place is my website, so that is
daniellebbaldwin.com.
Mike (46:38):
Excellent.
And that will be in the shownotes.
This is great.
I always learn, you know, Ilearned a ton from this.
You probably, if you're watchingon video versus just listening,
you would see me taking notes.
So I took a lot of notes, onthis.
So this is great.
I always say, if you want agreat company, you need a great
leadership team.
Danielle, thanks for helping usget there today.
Danielle (46:58):
Yeah.
Thanks so much for having me,Mike.
This was so fun.
inspired employees are 250% more productive than a
satisfied employee, which as youand I know, I mean our
organizations of the people thatwe work with.
I mean, wouldn't we love to havean entire organization of just
satisfied.
Not even.
Right.
Not even inspired.
So when we're looking to inspireand share that company mission
(00:24):
and that company vision that youwere so eloquently talking about
earlier and making sure that theleadership could do that as
well.
There are these five elementsthat we find in inspirational
stories.
Mike Goldman (00:41):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the
(01:01):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
Mike (01:16):
Danielle Baldwin helps leaders find their spark as a
coach, facilitator, and authorof Sparking Greatness.
She works with CEOs, businessowners, and creatives who want
to lead with courage, clarity,and inspiration.
I can't wait to dive in.
Danielle, welcome to the show.
Danielle (01:36):
Thank you so much, Mike.
It's good to be here.
Mike (01:39):
Yeah, looking forward to it.
So first question as always isfrom all of your experience,
what do you believe is the onemost important characteristic of
a great leadership team?
Danielle (01:54):
When I work with members and I look at their
leadership teams, for me themost important characteristic is
trust.
So we can build a lot from afoundation of trust, but if we
don't have that very bottomlayer.
We're not building anything.
They have to have trust in theroom in order to build something
great.
Mike (02:13):
And when you say trust, is it trust that people are going
to do what they say they aregoing to do?
Or is it kind of thattask-based, I'm gonna do what I
say I'm gonna do, or is it morethat vulnerability?
I can say anything.
We can give and receivefeedback.
Like what?
(02:34):
How do you define trust?
Danielle (02:36):
I the latter.
So certainly there's an elementof Hey, if you tell me to do
this thing, I'm gonna do thisthing.
But more importantly, it's thevulnerability in the room.
It's the openness in the room,it's the freedom to fail.
That's the, you know, in theLencioni lexicon of all of his
beautiful work.
But it really is about, are we ateam first and then we have our
(02:59):
separate fiefdoms, but like, howare we supporting each other?
Like we are the family and wetrust each other, and then
building the organization out ontop of that foundation.
Mike (03:11):
Excellent, excellent.
and you'll notice that, whenDanielle gave her answer, she
used the term members, she saidwith her members.
And what I didn't say as partof, your intro is that you are a
Vistage.
Chair, and I'm a big fan ofVistage, Vistage certified
speakers.
So we'll get that, we'll getthat Vistage plug in there.
But what that means is, for youlistening that Danielle, it not
(03:34):
only coaches, CEOs and leaders,but just.
Chairing a Vistage group.
you get to see those issuesfront and center, all the time.
So I think that's a greatbackground to have.
so I wanna dive in and I wannatalk about your book, your new
book, Sparking Greatness.
Talk a little bit about, well, Iguess I'll ask what, why this
(03:55):
book, you've had so muchexperience, this is the book you
decided to write.
Why.
Danielle (04:01):
I am one of those people.
I believe that the books choose.
So there are these things inlife that choose you.
I feel like your pets chooseyou.
I feel like musical instrumentschoose you.
I kind of feel like houseschoose you, and I definitely
feel like books choose you.
So I had no.
I was not on the inspirationparade.
That was not a thing for me.
(04:21):
I was very happily working on afiction project that I was very
happy with, and I had aone-to-one with a member.
It was the middle of thepandemic.
It was July.
So everybody's sitting at theirkitchen table, right?
So I'm talking with him and he'stelling me the story about the
fact that he just did skiplevels with his entire
organization.
(04:42):
So he said, Dee, you know, weasked them these three questions
at the end of the meetings.
So they met with their directmanager first, and we said, do
you understand your role?
Do you know where the company'sheaded?
and how are you feeling?
Right?
Because it's kind of wacky.
And he said when they met withtheir direct manager, the
answers were, yes, I understand.
Yes, I understand where thecompany's going, and I'm feeling
(05:02):
very motivated.
And I was like, yeah, I got it.
Great.
And he was like, but then to aperson, when they met with me,
the first two answers were thesame, and the third one was,
they felt inspired.
And I was like, huh.
He's like, why do you think thatis?
And I was like, I don't reallyknow.
And he was like, well, what isinspiration anyway?
(05:24):
And I was like, I don't know.
And then I fell down this rabbithole for a really long time and
then I popped back out of it.
So that is how the book came tobe.
I just got really curiousbecause we so often do throw
that word of inspiration around,and I don't, to me at least, it
wasn't really clearly defined.
And then, I mean, you've had amoment of inspiration.
(05:45):
Yeah.
You know what?
That lightning bolt, absolutely.
It's a beautiful thing.
And so then I was thinking tomyself, well, what if we could
bring more inspiration into theworld?
I mean, I feel like we certainlyneed it.
So how would we do that?
And how would we bring it to aworkplace where only 1.2% of
people feel inspired at work?
Like, how freaking sad is that?
(06:06):
So what could we do?
So that's how this thing, thisis how the party of the
inspiration party started.
Mike (06:12):
What is the difference?
you could feel the difference inthe word motivated versus
inspired and inspiration.
Certainly, in my mind, that'sgot a lot more heat than just
saying I'm motivated.
But what is the differencebetween the two?
Danielle (06:27):
So there are a lot.
So the first thing that I wannasay is sometimes I feel like
motivation gets a bad rap and itshouldn't because they're like
the Wonder Twins.
Do you remember that cartoon
Mike (06:37):
I do one to twin powers, activate shape.
one was the shape of the otherwas form the younger folks
listening have no idea whatwe're talking about, but that
was very cool.
Danielle (06:48):
Yes.
So inspiration and motivationare like the wonder twins.
So they can do, they can fightthe bad guys by themselves, but
they are far more powerful whenthey're together.
So inspiration by definition.
If we were to talk to apsychologist.
And we would say, define, thereare these two psychologists,
Thrash and Elliot, that havedone a lot of work in the
(07:09):
inspiration realm.
And they would say inspirationis defined by three
characteristics.
the first is that, it's sparkedspontaneity, meaning it hits us
like kablam, right?
It's the, you're out for a runand you get this zap of
inspiration.
The second, thing that theywould say is, that it's a,
there's an approach, motivationto it, which in psychology
(07:31):
essentially means that you aremotivated to do something.
There's action.
And there are two types ofinspiration.
There's inspired by and inspiredto for, in this conversation
we're just gonna talk aboutinspired to.
And then the, last element isthis feeling of transcendence.
Right.
It's that opening in your chest.
You get this greaterperspective, you get this like
(07:53):
astounding level of clarity.
You're like, oh my gosh, this isclear.
For the first time in a longtime, motivation is beautiful,
but it's far more the way that Idescribe, it's more terrestrial.
So inspiration is like up onthis mountaintop.
It's this vision, it's thisclarity and motivation is kind
(08:13):
of the trudging backup to themountaintop that you just saw.
It's far more based in logicthan it is heart-based.
and it can be motivated by fearor kind of by joy.
Inspiration by nature is anabsence of fear.
When we think about thosemoments, right, it's'cause
there's that limitless qualitymotivation can be like, okay, so
(08:36):
lemme give you an example.
I just went to my niece'swedding and I wanted to look
good, right?
For my niece's wedding.
So I could be inspired to say,Hey, I wanna look good.
I wanna feel good in my body.
I wanna have a day of joy, or Ican be inspired by fear.
Hey, I don't wanna look likecrap in these photos, and be
like the pudgy one.
Right?
(08:56):
So motivation has these twodifferent possible ways that we
get into it, and inspirationdoes not, but they kind of need
each other.
If we're gonna thread this wholething along.
Mike (09:08):
That's super helpful and I know one of the things that,
that I always communicate.
To the leaders that I work withwhen they're talk, when we're
talking about their companyvision, and certainly there's
gotta be clarity around acompany vision, but I always say
that's not enough.
as a leader, you need clarity.
(09:29):
You also need everyone aroundthe table to understand it,
understand what that vision is,but even that's not enough.
And then, where I go, which as Isay, I believe leaders around
that table, the seniorleadership table, they need to
be evangelists of that vision.
And to me now hearing how youdefine.
(09:50):
Inspiration versus motivation.
That to me is what is much moreabout inspiration than it is and
again, it is both, but I thinkthat's much more about having a
vision that inspires you to takeaction.
Danielle (10:07):
Mm-hmm.
Mike (10:08):
Love that.
Love that.
so is that what sparkinggreatness, that what the book is
all about?
It's really just finding thatinspiration or is sparking
greatness bigger than that?
Danielle (10:19):
It.
It's kind of split into twodifferent parts, so the first or
three different parts.
The first part is really givingyou these definitions of what
inspiration is, what motivationis, how do they work, how are
they different.
The second part, there are threeprecursors.
To a state of inspiration.
'cause we know it's fleeting bynature, right?
So it's kind of like field ofdreams.
(10:40):
If you build it, they will come.
Not quite the same withinspiration'cause you gotta
build it and sometimes it showsup and sometimes it doesn't.
But these three precursors are,spaciousness.
So that's like physical andmental space.
So often when you and I, we goon a retreat or we go to a
conference, we are more likelyto be inspired because we have
(11:01):
both physical and mental spacefrom our day to day.
So that's the first one.
The second one is spaciousness.
So when we are able to kind ofcreate this, sense of
spaciousness physically andmentally, then we're able to
quiet our mental chatter andeliminate our distractions.
And then the third precursor isself forgetfulness.
(11:23):
So we so often find that incommunity, it's when we take
that giant spotlight that is.
Constantly on ourselves and weshift it outward.
So that's the second part of thebook.
The third part is about creatingan inspirational narrative,
which can be really helpful forleaders.
it can be really helpful foranybody.
When I read through tons andtons of inspirational stories,
(11:47):
they're connected in these fiveways.
They each have these elements,and I, it's the acronym is
chart.
Mike (11:53):
Well, hold on.
Be before you go to thosenarratives.
and I'm taking notes as we'retalking, so we're gonna get back
to it.
I wanna go back to the, I wannago back to the precursors and
dig into that a little bitfirst.
So, and I screwed up'cause Ithink I wrote spaciousness
twice.
What's the first one is
Danielle (12:09):
one is spaciousness, so you
Mike (12:10):
and what's the second one?
Danielle (12:12):
Stillness.
Mike (12:13):
Stillness.
I put, okay, so the second isstillness.
So spaciousness, which isphysical and mental stillness.
And then the, and the last onewas
Danielle (12:25):
Self forgetfulness.
Mike (12:27):
that's what I wrote down, self forgetfulness.
So as a leader, how do we bringthose precursors?
To life.
How do we set the foundation andthen we'll talk about the
narrative, but how do we makethose real?
How should I be thinking aboutthose three things as a leader
in terms of what actions I oughtto be taking?
Danielle (12:48):
So the good news is in part two of this book, and I'll
go through a few of these, thereare exercises at the end of
every chapter for you as aleader and then for your team.
So, when we look atspaciousness, I wanna talk a
little bit about mentalspaciousness.
'cause physical spaciousness islike, I got a D.
I have a member who taught methis term called helium hand,
(13:09):
which I love.
Right.
So it's the, you're in themeeting and everybody's looking
around, or you're at a boardmeeting, or you're at the PTA
and somebody says, we have thisimportant initiative, Mike,
who's gonna take it on?
And you hear this cheep cheeplittle crickets.
Nobody's doing anything.
And then all of a sudden you seethis happen, you don't even know
it's gonna happen, and your handis going up like it's full of
(13:32):
helium.
And so many of us have heliumhand, which is not helpful.
Because I think in this day andage, we're inundated with so
much.
So one of the exercises we talkabout is you sitting down with
your team and having adiscussion about the impact of
your culture.
Of Yes, how is it impacting yourproductivity?
(13:53):
How is it impacting the team'sability to get things done?
What are we looking at here?
So it's things like that whenwe're talking about
spaciousness.
Stillness is about, creatingdowntime during the day,
allowing that culturally, maybetaking meetings outside, right?
But, really giving people thespace to be still, because as
(14:16):
you move up in an organization,especially, and I'm sure you see
this with your clients.
Stillness is not an optionanymore.
The level of strategic thinkingthat you need to do in higher
levels of organizations demandsit.
and there are a ton of examplesof this.
Doris Kearns Goodwin wrote anentire book, she wrote this book
(14:36):
called Leadership and TurbulentTimes, and she compared the
presidencies of both Roosevelt'sLincoln and LBJ.
And in it, one of the thingsthat she talks about.
All of them had turbulent timesand each of them knew the power
of stillness that they neededand took time out.
So Teddy Roosevelt is likecruising around on a horse in
(14:56):
the bad lands, right?
Everybody has their escapehatch, but the stillness is
really important in order for usto be able to get a moment of
inspiration, to be able to getthe clarity, to be able to get
the perspective.
And then self forgetfulness canbe like a community or a team
day.
It's how do we take our.
(15:17):
That spotlight, like I said,that we always have trained on
ourselves and flip it out.
It's why so often, in communityis the easiest way for us to see
that
Mike (16:47):
I love that.
and that sounds you know, whenit comes to the stillness and
the mental space is somewhatsometimes why we have the best
ideas in the shower, right.
When we're kind of by ourselvesand we're not trying to think of
a great idea for me.
My what, when I get the most.
I don't wanna say the mostinspired, but when I get the
inspirational ideas, typicallyfor me comes on a long walk.
(17:12):
I'll take a four mile walk and Iwill come back and have recorded
15 new ideas on my phone.
Just'cause as I'm walking,something will pop in my head.
So I see that happen all thetime.
Danielle (17:25):
So you're giving yourself both the mental and the
physical spaciousness.
Right.
And then what I tell people iswe're so accustomed to being
productive all the time, whichmakes me a little nuts.
But don't take your, take yourphone, but don't be on it.
you don't have to listen to anaudio book.
You don't have to listen to apodcast.
You don't have to be readingyour email.
Like just go and drop into thestillness.
And there's also this misnomerfor stillness.
(17:46):
I do not mean physical stillnesslike.
What I do mean I have a, ahumming rule.
So you need to be able toparticipate in an activity
that's gonna give you mentalstillness and still hum.
So if you are too physically.
Exerted, you don't have thespace for the inspiration.
Like I used to do CrossFit.
I was freaking terrible atCrossFit.
(18:08):
Oh my goodness.
But, it wouldn't, it's not agood place for me to be still.
'cause I was just kept thinkingall the time, like, how do I not
die?
Like how do I not die in thisworkout?
How do I not throw up in thisworkout?
How do I not die?
So whether it's running, you canbe a great runner, but you're
not sprinting.
Right.
You can be.
Gardening.
You can be playing guitar, youcan be cleaning, you can be
(18:29):
doing all of these things.
It's why it's on a walk.
It's why it's when we're in theshower, it's why we're standing
at the kitchen doing dishes.
So we have activity that allowsour brain to kind of slide into
this, static mode and give usspace for inspiration to fill
in.
But we're not so overexerted inour movement that there isn't
space for anything except for usto be like.
(18:53):
So I think it's important.
Mike (18:54):
Love it, love it, And it just makes sense.
I don't think about it that way,but that's the way it's always
happened for me.
So now let's go back where youstarted going and go to the
inspired narrative.
So we've gotta give ourselvesthese precursors.
For inspiration, but now, andthe narrative, what does that
mean?
the is the narrative about onceyou have that inspiration, how
(19:16):
you communicate it.
Danielle (19:17):
I think especially in leaders, I'm gonna backtrack for
one second.
There was this super cool studythat came out in 2015 that Bain
Company did, and theyessentially created a pyramid,
just like Maslow's Hierarchy,but they did it with employees.
And so what they said was theysplit them into these three
different levels.
So the first level of employeedown at the bottom was a
(19:39):
satisfied employee.
And they had their basics needscovered, physically and mentally
safe, right?
Had the tools that they needed,felt rewarded and appreciated at
work.
So that's satisfied.
When we move up, we go toengaged.
So an engaged employee has allof those, but they feel like
they're part of this incredibleteam.
(19:59):
They have autonomy.
They feel like they can do whatthey need.
They understand their impact onthe organization.
And then this top tier is aninspired employee.
An inspired employee is inspirednot only by the company's
mission and vision, but also byits leadership.
And what they found in this BainCompany study is that inspired
employees are 250% moreproductive than a satisfied
(20:24):
employee, which as you and Iknow, I mean our organizations
of the people that we work with.
I mean, wouldn't we love to havean entire organization of just
satisfied.
Not even.
Right.
Not even inspired.
So when we're looking to inspireand share that company mission
and that company vision that youwere so eloquently talking about
earlier and making sure that theleadership could do that as
(20:48):
well.
There are these five elementsthat we find in inspirational
stories.
So the first one is courage.
having fear and doing it anyway.
So what does that look like?
What, when were times were badand we were still able to push
through?
So, you know, sometimes when wesee, somebody and they just get
listed on the stock exchange andthey ring the bell and we're
(21:09):
like, oh, wow, man, that'spretty cool.
That's inspiring, but how muchmore inspiring is it when we
know that they almost facedbankruptcy.
Or that, you know, things wenthorribly awry.
It gets great that you've gottenthere, but there's more
inspiration if we know thatthere's courage, which gets me
to the second, which is H, whichis hardship.
When things are too easy.
(21:30):
That's not really that inspiring'cause we're like, Hey, I can do
that.
I do that every day.
A is for authenticity.
So, the best example I can giveof authenticity is Lance
Armstrong.
The world was wildly inspired byLance Armstrong, great courage
in the face of debilitatingdisease, this amazing comeback
(21:54):
until all of a sudden weweren't.
'cause the doping scandal brokeand the authenticity of his
recovery just fell right out ofthe bottom of that resilience is
the fourth element.
So it's not just somebody likelifting a car off of a child.
That happens once.
It's the ability to come backagain and to face those
(22:14):
challenges.
And then the last one istransformation.
So when we're, talking aboutthat from a leadership
perspective, the transformationis what's ahead of us?
who will the organizationbecome?
Who will we become?
Who are we?
So if you look at any trulyinspirational story, it's gonna
have all five of those elements.
Mike (22:33):
So let's make this real.
If I am a.
If I'm a leader and I want to,my goal is to inspire my team
around our vision as a company.
How do these all.
Fit together.
Like I understand the five, butif I'm saying here's our vision,
(22:57):
does that mean like, how do Iget, if I'm talking about
vision, how does hardship becomea part of that?
How does resilience become apart of that?
how do I work these into thatkind of inspiring communication
about vision?
Danielle (23:11):
So when I think of it, I look back at something that's
happened in the organizationthat was either a milestone, a
growth milestone, or a toughmilestone.
So remember when we had thiscompetitor entered the market?
Remember when we launched thisproduct and it didn't go the way
that we wanted it to.
and some organizations rememberwhen we had the, this cutback or
something that was challengingand hard because you're
(23:33):
reinforcing the resilience inthat.
And here we are, and here we aretoday and now we know where
we're headed, right?
So it's a little bit of a mix ofusing your rear view mirror in
order to look through thewindshield.
You're looking up at the rearview to say, look at these
things that we've done so far.
Look at where we've beencourageous, where, we made a
(23:53):
choice and stood in the marketfor something, or our product
stood for something or we didsomething, that might not have
been popular or, was difficultfor us to do.
And then talking about that,because again, if employees feel
like it's been Easy Street thewhole time and you are asking
them to do something difficult,you just gotta be like, remember
(24:14):
when we did that thing?
That was hard?
Oh yeah, I do.
We can do that again.
We can get back up to thatmountaintop.
Mike (24:24):
That's a great challenge for me, for other leaders
because I think we come up witha vision or even we collaborate
with our team on a vision, andthen we wanna go and tell people
what that vision is.
but what you're helping me torealize is I think as leaders we
can fall into the trap.
We may already be inspired byit, so we think others will too.
(24:48):
So we can say, you know, our bighairy audacious goal 10 years
from now is we're gonna land onthe moon and we're gonna, and
we're think others should beinspired.
But what you're challenging, Ithink all leaders to think about
is you've gotta put that in thecontext of a story.
and you know, why is thissomething we should be doing?
And who are we to think we cando this?
(25:10):
What have we done before thatprove, you know, we can do this?
why should we go do this?
How are we get, take it and makeit a story?
Using these five elements, Ithink is something most leaders
don't do, which is of course whysomeone like you needed to write
this book.
but I think most of us don't.
Turn our vision into stories.
We just say, here's our vision.
(25:31):
Is that your experience as well?
Danielle (25:33):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I used to do that too,right?
Because I was so inspired by itand I was like, oh, this is
great.
And then, I don't know if you'veever had, had this experience I
certainly have where you walkout and you share it with the
team and you just get like the.
You're like, oh, this isn'tlanding very well.
So there are two elements of it.
Like when we look atstorytelling, there's a story.
(25:55):
There are different stories fordifferent audiences.
There's the story for our clientwhere our client is the hero.
There's the story for ouremployees, we're the employees
or the hero.
They understand kind of wherewe're headed.
when I look at inspiration at anindividual level in an
organization, it's showing it'smirroring to an employee.
The highest version of them thatyou see.
(26:16):
It's saying, this is yourmountaintop, this is what I see
you could do.
And so often the employee's Idon't even see that.
So from a leadershipperspective, if we can do that
for an organization like, Heyguys, this is what we're capable
of.
We could totally do this.
this could be us.
then I think it can be wildlyinspirational.
And I'd say one more thing aboutthis, this goes all the way back
(26:38):
to our hiring practices.
That's why I encourage mymembers to make sure that they
have some sort of culturalquestion that they can dig
around for in an interview.
Inspiration is also centered onshared visions and goals, so
I'll use a personal examplefirst.
So let's say Mike, you've got agood friend who's training for
(27:00):
an Ironman.
I mean pretty, that's likephysically pretty brutal.
If you are also training for anIron Man or you have some sort
of physical goal, you're like,oh, wow, I'm inspired.
I'm inspired by my friend Sam,who is doing all these things.
Now, Mike, if you're like, Hey,that's not my jam.
You might be inspired by, butnot inspired too.
(27:22):
So the same thing is true whenwe look at an organization and
we are finding more and more.
A lot of the research is comingout that we're seeing Gen Z as
far more, of course wanna becompensated like any normal
human.
But, the mission and vision ofan organization is far more
important to them than it hasbeen for other generations.
(27:42):
And so being able to clearlyarticulate that and make sure
employees on the way in the doorare aligned with the mission and
vision will make it so mucheasier for you as a leadership
team to actually inspire them.
There's only so far that they'regonna be able to go, as we saw
from that Bain Company, study.
If they are not aligned with thecompany's mission and
(28:03):
leadership, we can't ever reallyget them to that inspired top
tier.
Mike (28:09):
Yeah, I see that.
It.
You know, my, my daughter is 29years old, so that's not gen.
Is that's millennial Gen Y.
I forget all the different, butthat's not Gen Z.
Gen Z is younger than that.
Right.
Danielle (28:22):
I think she might, I don't.
She might.
Maybe she's on the cusp.
I don't know either.
Mike (28:26):
You know what,
Danielle (28:26):
don't know her
Mike (28:27):
it doesn't matter.
she's 29.
Believe it at that.
But I, you know, back when Iwas.
I just turned 60 this year andback when I was in my twenties
and I worked for a bigmanagement consulting firm,
which is now Accenture.
but they weren't calledAccenture back then.
But my attitude was you couldbeat me, whip me, kick me, work
(28:51):
me 24 hours a day.
I'm making partner and I wantthe big house, and I want the
nice car, and I think it's soeasy for.
Folks from my generation, andI'm not baby boomer, I'm like
the oldest gen Xes out there.
I was born in 65, but it's easyto look and say, well, these
kids today don't wanna workhard.
(29:12):
But I actually think my attitudeback then was not very healthy.
Danielle (29:17):
No.
Mike (29:17):
like, I just want more and more.
and it didn't matter how I wastreated or how long I needed to
work.
And I think, you know, I knowwith my daughter it takes a lot
more to inspire her now.
She's a really hard worker.
She's really smart.
She does really well.
You know, it, you know, at herjob.
Is she inspired by what shedoes?
(29:38):
Is she, you know, she does itbecause it's a job.
I think it takes a lot more forgood or bad, I'm not judging it.
It takes a lot more to inspirethese folks.
And I think, you know, part ofit, you know, I've been focused
my questions on things like theinspiring vision, but.
What you're helping me realizeas well, and I think this goes
back to the trust in your answerto the question on most
(30:02):
important thing for a greatleadership team, is when I look
at the five different narrativesand I wrote, you know, courage,
hardship, authenticity,resilience, transformation, I
think of that as a leader, Ineed to be comfortable enough.
With myself and with my teamthat I could share all those
(30:23):
things about me.
I could remember years ago I wasdoing a small speech for a
chamber.
Way, way back.
And I remember telling a storyabout my son and my son who's 31
now.
he has Asperger's syndrome.
He was much younger back then.
(30:44):
It was really a challenge forus.
And I told a pretty emotionalstory about my son and frankly,
what a crappy dad I was for along time.
And I had someone come up to meafter that speech and say, I
wanna work with you.
And I said, oh, well, and I, youknow, I was a coach at the time,
but I did more one-on-onecoaching.
(31:05):
I said, oh.
What, you know, what makes yousay that?
How did you make that decision?
She said, if you can get up infront of a room like this and be
as vulnerable as you were, andshe actually used the word
inspired.
She said, it's vulnerable as youwere.
That inspired me and I just, Isaid, I have to work with you.
(31:26):
And it's just, and it's becauseof how vulnerable I was, so I
think it's so easy, and I canremember when COVID hit and we
were all learning how to workremotely for the first time.
Danielle (31:38):
Mm-hmm.
Mike (31:38):
Is I found the CEO.
Some of the CEOs I worked withfelt like they needed to be
Superman or Superwoman.
They had to show strengthbecause everybody else is
nervous.
We don't know what's going onwith the business.
We don't know what's going on.
We're with our health with theworld, so I need to put my
superhero cape on and talk.
nothing but pos.
(31:59):
Everything's gonna be great, andI'm getting along fine, showing
no vulnerability
Danielle (32:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mike (32:06):
and.
Where, what they needed to doand what I helped them to do,
and now you're helping meunderstand it more, is I'm like,
you've gotta take that superherocape off and you've gotta be
real for your people so theyfeel like they could be real
right back.
So I think these, you know,these five narratives are
narratives in how you tell astory, but also narratives in
(32:27):
how vulnerable you need to beabout yourself.
Danielle (32:31):
I totally agree.
I think that authenticityelement.
It's so funny that you use capesat the door.
'cause it's one of the things Itell my members when they come
into a Vistage meeting, I'mlike, leave that cape at the
door.
I do not need that thing on youtoday.
You can just hang that thingright up and then you can put it
back on when you leave.
But when you come in, no cape.
and so often we do, we feellike, I feel like especially Gen
(32:52):
Xers, right?
Because we were the latchkeykids and all of these other
reasons, but there was thisvision of leadership.
That was very like, you know,we're strong and we're gonna do
it.
And it doesn't resonate nearlyas much as if, when you can show
up and say, Hey, I know thatit's crazy out there.
I know that we.
(33:13):
I work with some smallerbusinesses and so there's a lot
more fluctuation in cash flowand it can be really scary
sometimes.
And the employees know, right?
They know what's going on.
And being able to shareauthentically without terrifying
anybody.
Of course, you're not gonna goin front of your employees and
start crying, but, being able toshow up like an authentic leader
and say, Hey, here are thethings I'm gonna, I'm gonna give
(33:34):
it to you straight.
This is what's going on, andthese are the things that we're
gonna do to be able to get outof it.
But when we don't acknowledgeand we don't show up
authentically, we're kind oftrashing our ability to be
inspirational because peopledon't trust.
People don't trust it.
People have better spidey sensethan we give them credit for.
They're like, yeah, that's aload of crap.
(33:56):
So,
Mike (33:57):
Yeah, and I think what it tells us, you know, one of the.
One of the questions I thoughtabout when I was preparing for
our discussion, and I was gonnaask it as a question, but I
think I've already got theanswer, is, you know it, how do
we spark greatness in others andinspire others when.
Sometimes we're not feelinggreat about our business, right?
(34:20):
I mean, you and I both in whatyou do as a coach, as a business
chair, what I do, coachingleadership teams, we wanna run
across leaders all the time whoare overwhelmed.
Who are starting to fall out oflove with their business, who
are, you know, really have tostart guarding against burnout.
(34:41):
And it's you know, how can Ispark greatness in other people?
How can I be inspirational whenI'm feeling that way?
And it's, you know, what I'mrealizing is it's not about
faking it.
and no, you're not gonna cry andcurl up in a fetal position on a
zoom call, you know, in front offolks, but it's not about.
You know, totally hiding howyou're feeling and just being
(35:01):
rah rah.
it's about being real andauthentic with people, and
people will be inspired by that.
They're not gonna be inspired byrah rah bullshit.
That that's just you covering upwhat's really going on in the
business.
Danielle (35:18):
Yeah, there's this, my mom taught me this moons and
moons ago, very popular in therecovery community.
And she would tell, she told mewhen I was in high school, she
was like, she took a drag of hercigarette.
She's nobody ever died.
A terminal uniqueness is whatshe told me.
And at the time I was like, whatare you talking about?
But I feel like.
(35:39):
That is such an important,there's this, the other concept
that I'm fascinated by isbelonging and the importance of
belonging.
And I think vulnerability andbeing authentic really gives us
that sense because so many, sooften, especially in this world,
we walk around and we feel likewe're the only ones and it's
only ever happened to us.
(35:59):
And, I don't feel that way.
And so it can be reallyempowering for your team who.
Maybe feeling that same way,like that person in the
audience, I was like, oh mygosh.
that really hit me.
being able to share thatauthenticity because then people
don't feel alone.
They actually feel moretogether.
It's like one of the powers ofone of the reasons I love
working with Vistage and workingwith Vistage as a peer group.
(36:21):
You get a bunch of CEOs in thereand they think well, I'm the
only one who has, and then theybring something into the room
and it's oh, look at all theseother people that have done the
same thing.
So I think that it is reallyimportant, and one of the things
that I talk about in the book,it's funny you say this, the
first part of section two,because I know you saw it, I
certainly saw it post pandemic.
(36:43):
I saw so many not overwhelmed,they had pushed into burnout.
I cannot tell you how manyburned out leaders I had.
Because they were kind ofcarrying the weight of the
world.
And the way that I describeburnout, like burnout is your
arms are full of groceries.
You got your car keys, a coffeeand a dog leash and you're like
(37:04):
staggering around to try andbalance it and then that's
overwhelm and burnout is whenyou finally faceplant.
And I've seen so many faceplanted and it's really hard to
be inspired to get to thatmountaintop if you are 20
leagues under the sea.
So a lot of inspiration isshowing up authentically, but
(37:26):
it's also putting time intoyourself as a leader because
there's only so long an employeecan look at you and they can see
the bags under your eyes andthey can see you army crawling
in and outta the office everyday, and also trust.
So it is, it's taking, it's.
Flipping the paradigm that Ithink we have as leaders that we
may have grown up with, likejust grin and bear it.
Just, you know, get throughanother day and shifting the,
(37:49):
how do I take care of myself asa person?
How do I give myselfspaciousness, stillness, and
self forgetfulness so that I canthen provide that for my
employees?
Mike (37:58):
Yeah.
And I think what it goes backto, I'll go back to that
hierarchy you mentioned earlier,where it's satisfied, engaged,
inspired, and inspired.
Folks were to, was it a Bain,and company study?
I think you said 250% moreproductive.
It just makes sense, right?
We, when you think of the overoverwhelm, and then further than
that, the burnout, I thinksometimes.
(38:19):
As leaders, we could fall intothat trap because we feel like
we're in it alone, especiallyCEOs or founders.
No one cares as much as I do.
It's all on me.
All of the complexity, all ofthe pressure, all of that's on
me.
But if we can as leaders, notonly.
(38:40):
Inspire others, but surroundourselves with people that
inspire us and give, and createthat, you know, through those
precursors you talked aboutthrough the narratives, to be
able to create an environmentwhere that inspiration goes back
and forth between leader andteam members.
To me, you know, that's part ofwhere that 250% comes from,
(39:01):
because as a CEO, I'm gonna beway more.
inspired, I'm gonna be way moreproductive, way less chance of
me burning out if I've got ateam around me that is, is
challenging me to be at my bestand inspiring me to be at my
best.
and I think for a lot ofleaders, they have very mediocre
(39:23):
teams around them and they'renot.
I don't know if all of them seehow big a problem that is.
I always say good enough is notgood enough.
You know, if you've got a bunchof people around you that are
just fine, they're doing goodenough not to be fired, then
you're slowly killing yourselfand your company.
(39:45):
We need great people around usthat inspire us, but I think too
many leaders are they're willingto settle for mediocre.
Danielle (39:54):
I agree.
I think they're willing tosettle for mediocre, and I feel
like a lot of what I also see,which is like.
A lovely trait of loyalty, butthe other common phrase of what
got you here won't get youthere.
So you have somebody that was agreat bookkeeper or even a great
controller, but you're gettingto the point where you need a
(40:16):
CFO and that person doesn't havethat skillset, and so they get
to a point of grow, right?
We get to the Peter principle,whether it's through their role
in the organization or thescaling of the organization and
their ability to either keep upor not.
And they wanna keep them aroundbecause I never would've gotten
here without them.
And that, while that's certainlytrue, if you wanna break the 10
(40:37):
million mark, if you wanna breakthe 50 million mark, if you
wanna break the a hundredmillion mark, right?
There are these distinctmilestones that we see in the
scalability of an organization,and it requires different
talent.
So it can be really hard forpeople.
And I understand that.
I understand how hard it is, andI think also as leaders, we have
a tendency to have blind spots.
I know I had my blind spot.
(40:58):
I feel like all of us have hadone or two of those.
So it can be really hard.
And sometimes it's not from likeconflict avoidant.
Well, there's some in that, ofthat in there, but some of it
can be like, well, this personwas an A player for the first
seven years, 10 years of theorganization.
You're like, yeah, you're right.
How are they doing right now?
Oh, and you're like, oh, we needto talk about that,
Mike (41:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
what do you find, you mentionedblind spots and we talked about
a whole bunch of things leadersshould be doing.
What do you find when you workwith leaders on this?
what's the hardest part orwhat's the biggest obstacle in
their way to really sparkinggreatness in themselves, in
their team, in their companies?
(41:44):
Is there one.
Biggest mistake leaders make orone big obstacle in their way.
Danielle (41:50):
The biggest obstacle that, well, everybody, we're all
our own biggest obstacle.
Right?
And the biggest one that I seeis.
Especially, the leaders that Iwork with is they are so servant
leadership focused that theydon't give themselves any time.
And then what happens, forbetter or for worse is the
(42:14):
organization will mirror whereyou are.
And so they're out of gas andthen they're not putting any
time into themselves.
and then the organization likestarts to tilt over a little
bit, but it's not prioritizing.
Themselves as leaders andunderstanding that if they put
this time into growingthemselves as leaders, that it
will trickle down.
(42:35):
So there I'll say, you know,what's your professional
development budget for yourteam?
Oh, it's a zillion dollars.
I wanna make sure, and then Iwill ask, so what are you doing
for you?
I listen to podcasts, which isgreat.
You should, but what are elseare you doing for you?
That's really about it.
So it's really about taking thetime.
To do the self-development work,to make time that you're getting
(42:58):
some spaciousness, stillness,self forgetfulness time so that
you can come up and kind of dothe Wayne Gretzky of staying,
keeping where the puck of yourcompany is going.
You need the time and space todo it
Mike (43:13):
and that includes, I don't know how many leaders I talk to,
and I'm sure you do as well.
And it's almost, sometimes it's,it's like they, they're prideful
about it.
I haven't taken a vacation infive years.
don't be proud of that.
That's messed up.
Danielle (43:29):
yeah, that
Mike (43:30):
But we see it, I see it all the time.
And that's.
That's such a great example ofnot taking time for yourself,
not finding time to take abreath and plus the fact that
sometimes you gotta get outtaout of the hair of your team and
let them just go do their joband prove they could do it
without you.
But that's just one example.
Like t take a vacation figure,you know?
(43:50):
And then, and if you don't havethe team around you that allows
you to take a vacation, thenrealize you got the wrong team
around you and take some action.
what's one if we were to leavefolks with one thing that when
they're done with this one thingthey can just go do, to kind of
get started on one of thesethings, like what is one thing a
leader could do right afterlistening to this podcast?
Danielle (44:13):
I would encourage, like where I want everybody to
start is just to start gettingin the habit.
And one of the things I talkabout in the book is like
mentally giving yourselfpermission.
There's a whole nother thingabout that.
But I want you to start timeblocking stillness time.
I don't care how long it is, noless than 15 minutes, but I want
(44:33):
a few blocks during the weekwhere you are giving yourself
permission, where you areclearly communicating with your
team that this is what you weredoing.
So if somebody rolls by youroffice and they see you staring
out the window, it's not theknock time, right?
So you are giving yourself sometime.
and then I want you to come backand figure out what, how that
has impacted your leadership,how that's impacted the
(44:55):
organization.
When you are just do me thefavor of giving yourself a few
times a week and will increaseit over time and tell me how
that impacts you and yourorganization.
And I guarantee you if you dothat and you begin to build a
habit around it, right?
You have flexible discipline, soit's not, it doesn't have to be
(45:15):
the same time every day.
You don't have to be in the samespot.
It doesn't have to be the sameamount of time.
But if you are consistent withthat, how much more often are
you being inspired because youare giving yourself the time and
space for the difficult, thesolution to the difficult
problem you have to the where amI headed as a leader, where is
(45:35):
the organization headed?
You have time and space for thatto be able to come into your
brain.
You have built the field ofdreams, right?
And now we will see shoeless JoeJackson walk outta the corn
fields, but you gotta build afield
Mike (45:49):
And a lot of people when they think stillness, think, oh,
you want me to meditate?
I guess it could be, but itcould also be stare out the
window, go take a walk, youknow, do something.
in addition to your work withyour Vistage group, how else do
you work with clients to helpthem execute on these things?
Danielle (46:08):
I work, I do some private coaching with,
individuals, not in a peer groupsetting.
I do keynote speaking.
I do workshop facilitation.
So I do all the things.
Mike (46:18):
All the, you do all the things.
Wow.
where's the best place forpeople to go if they wanna find
out more about you?
Your coaching, your speaking,your book.
where should we tell people togo?
Danielle (46:32):
best place is my website, so that is
daniellebbaldwin.com.
Mike (46:38):
Excellent.
And that will be in the shownotes.
This is great.
I always learn, you know, Ilearned a ton from this.
You probably, if you're watchingon video versus just listening,
you would see me taking notes.
So I took a lot of notes, onthis.
So this is great.
I always say, if you want agreat company, you need a great
leadership team.
Danielle, thanks for helping usget there today.
Danielle (46:58):
Yeah.
Thanks so much for having me,Mike.
This was so fun.
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