December 26, 2023 • 53 mins
On this episode of the Better Leadership Team Show, I have a very special guest, Coach Jim Johnson, who is an authority on realizing your dreams. He has developed winning high school basketball teams for 30 years. He is known for his incredible leadership and the inspiring story of James McElain, the autistic manager he inserted into a basketball game, who became a national celebrity. Coach Johnson will be sharing his insights on teamwork, sportsmanship, and non-business leadership lessons from sports.
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Thanks for listening! Connect with us at mike-goldman.com/blog and on Instagram@mikegoldmancoach and on YouTube @Mikegoldmancoach
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim Johnson (00:02):
if your mission is not bigger than just winning
games or making a profit, youusually don't last.
So what we developed in our casewas we wanted to develop winners
on and off the court.
And as a leader, goodness, ChiefReminding Officer, is I've got
to consistently live that andshare.
And define to them.
What does it mean to win on thecourt?
(00:23):
What does it mean to win off thecourt?
And as a leader, you got to leadby example.
And you also got to be doingconsistently sharing the
message.
And, you know, Another thing,leaders, that are effective is
they're the chief storytellers.
They have great stories to getpeople to buy into the mission.
Mike Goldman (00:46):
You made it to the better leadership team show the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people doing the right things soyou can grow your business
without losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth fulfillment and the valueyour company adds to the world
(01:07):
by building a better leadershipteam.
Alright, let's go.
I'm going to warn you that this intro is going to
be a little bit longer than mostbecause the story here is
something that you need to hearand you'll hear more from our,
(01:32):
you know, from our great guest,but it's going to start with a
longer than normal interview.
Based on what transpired in afew short moments in early 2006,
Coach Jim Johnson is now anauthority on the subject of
realizing your dreams.
Coach Johnson has developedwinning high school basketball
(01:53):
teams for 30 years, taking overthree losing varsity programs
and turning them into winners inshort periods of time, of his
428 career victories, one inparticular, will surely never be
duplicated.
On February 15, 2006, CoachJohnson made the kind hearted
(02:16):
gesture of inserting hisautistic manager, James
McElwain, now known to the worldas J Mac, into Greece Athena
High School's final home game,which the Trojans won 79 to 43.
J Mac scored 20 points in justover four minutes, including
(02:37):
six, three point baskets tobecome an instant national
celebrity.
Coach Johnson also was featuredin major news outlets around the
country.
And I remember back then seeingthat on all the news programs.
To make the Hollywood endingcomplete, Grease Athena captured
the first Section 5 title ofCoach Johnson's career a few
(02:58):
weeks later.
In his many public speakingappearances, the Rochester, New
York resident relates his rolein a basketball game that got
Hollywood calling.
He also emphasizes theimportance of teamwork and
sportsmanship, delivering histalks with a hard fed style that
has brought audiences to theirfeet.
(03:19):
Now, in addition to all that,there's two other reasons I am
so excited to have Coach JimJohnson with us.
Number one, some of you mayknow, I have a son who's
actually, as of recording thisepisode in a few days, going to
turn 29, who is on the autisticspectrum.
He's got Asperger's.
(03:40):
So, when we say heartfelt, man,I feel it, big time.
And separate from that, I'vealways been interested since I
started the show in taking somenon business leadership lessons
from sports, from music, fromdirecting from wherever it might
come from taking non leadershiplessons into the business world.
(04:03):
And this is really my firstchance to do that.
So coach, you want to, should Icall you coach Johnson or Jim?
What do you want me to call you?
Jim Johnson (04:11):
You know, coach or Jim are fine.
Mike, as I said, a couple ofthings, coaches to me is an
honor that I cherish because Idid it for 35 years and also
I've been called a lot worse.
Mike Goldman (04:24):
So love it.
I'm going to call you coach.
I like that.
So coach, I like to start all ofmy shows with guests with a
really important question.
After all, it's the betterleadership team show.
So we want to focus onleadership teams in one word.
What do you believe is the onemost important characteristic of
(04:45):
a great leadership team?
Jim Johnson (04:48):
Well, there's certainly a lot, but the one
that always jumps out to me,although I'm going to cheat and
give you a second one, but byfirst one, it jumps out to me
because one of my core values isone of the things we really
spend a lot of time with ourplayers on.
And that is respect I don'tthink you can have a great
leadership team and a greatgroup in any type of team.
(05:08):
If you don't have a greatrespect for each other, which
will develop two other words.
I think love is a reallyimportant word.
And when you can build thatwhere people are really caring,
which leads to, I guess, theother word that I always jumps
out to me is, how do you buildtrust?
So.
Mike Goldman (05:26):
I love hearing that.
And it's interesting how oftenthat word love comes up.
You know, I interviewed someone,not too long ago, an episode,
called love as a businessstrategy.
and I just did another interviewwhere love came up as
leadership.
And I was listening to BreneBrown had a podcast called, Oh
(05:50):
my God.
Because she's got a few podcastsand I forgot the name of the
courageous leadership, somethinglike that.
I may be getting it wrong, butshe was talking about some work
she did with the Air Force.
And she was talking to an AirForce general who didn't use the
word love, but he said the mostimportant tenet of leadership in
the Air Force is having anaffection for the people that
(06:14):
you lead.
I'm like Air Force affection.
I don't put those two together,but it's amazing how off how
often love and affection comesup.
So, I appreciate that.
So, coach, tell us before we getinto some of the lessons on
leadership.
I want to know more more aboutthat night.
And if people, you know, if youlook up.
(06:34):
You know, coach Jim Johnson, yougo to his website and we'll give
his links later.
You'll, find the videos all overthe place, you know, on the web,
but tell me more about thatnight and what you were
thinking.
I want to know kind of, whatwere you thinking before you
made that decision to book J Macin?
What were you thinking during,what were you thinking and
after?
(06:55):
We know the story, but what wereyou thinking throughout that?
Jim Johnson (06:59):
So I think in context, Mike, I got to take you
back just to give you a littlequick background so that it
because it makes it moreunderstandable to your audience
is that Jason tried out for ourteam three consecutive years.
He tried out for the JVs.
I was the varsity coach and myJV coach was one they really
(07:19):
recognized that even thoughJason wasn't very talented,
Jason's on the autism spectrum.
When he tried out for the JVteam, he was five, six and maybe
90 pounds soaking wet.
So he, and he wasn't a verytalented player, but some of the
other characteristics.
And one of the things I talkedto leaders is do you have
clarity on how you pick yourteam?
And that's something so and someof our characteristics,
(07:42):
obviously talent was one ofthem.
But other things were, were youa we over me guy?
We called it.
Were you a person that had apassion for the game of
basketball?
Were you coachable?
And so my JV coach came to me.
I said, coach, Jason's not avery good player, but boy, he's
got, other than talent, he's gotsome of the other
characteristics.
(08:03):
I want to keep him in theprogram.
And I said, well, what do yougot in mind?
He says, I'm going to offer himthe team manager and I'm going
to let him practice with theteam.
And that's what he did.
And I've got to admit early on,there was some trials and
tribulations as the team gotused to Jason and Jason got used
to his teammates.
But because we had built apretty good culture, I really
started to see a bond.
(08:23):
In fact, Mike he used to warm myheart because in our high school
situation, we would play a JVgame and then the varsity game
would follow.
And Jason would always come in awhite shirt and black tie.
And after the JV game, he'd bewhat I call a ted in disarray
because he would be so pumped upfor the game.
So his shirt will be hangingout, his tie will be on
(08:44):
sideways.
And to see one of our varsityplayers always go over and get
them all straightened out to getthem to sit on the bench for the
varsity game is something Ireally cherish.
Fast forward.
So the other thing that wasunique about Jason, besides some
of his challenges in life, wasthat he didn't make the team.
And Mike, I could tell you, Iwas a head coach for 30 years.
(09:04):
I could count on one hand, theamount of players that they
didn't make the team would comeback out.
And if they did, it was usuallya half hearted effort.
Jason was different.
Jason came to all our off seasonworkouts between his sophomore
and junior year.
I was picking him up at hishouse because he loved
basketball like I did.
We started to build a reallynice bond tries out for a team
(09:25):
as a junior.
The team I coach, the varsitydoesn't make it, but I ask them
to serve as team manager, onelittle side story.
So you mentioned that we won ourfirst section five championship.
Well, that was kind of a bigstumbling block and think of the
people listening.
If you ever had a majorstumbling block where you didn't
ever think you were going to getthrough.
(09:46):
Well, in our situation.
I had a lot of winning teams,but we kept losing in a
postseason tournament.
In fact, going into Jason'sjunior year, we had lost five
times in the sectionalsemifinals, never making the
finals.
So Jason, in our first meetingas junior year, I walk in the
room and he immediately raiseshis hand.
He says, coach, I need to sharesomething.
(10:07):
I said, sure, J Mac.
He says, we're going to, we knowyou've never won the section
five championship as a coach.
I said, thanks Jason, for thereminder, but this year is going
to be different.
We're going to, adopt thismantra, stay focused, and we're
going to help you win your firstsection five championship.
Mike, we have another greatyear.
We get to the semifinals now forthe sixth time in my career, and
(10:31):
we lose at the buzzer to ourcrosstown rival.
We are devastated.
But Jason was such a greatinspiration because he was more
bound and determined to make theteam and help us win our first
section five championship hissenior year.
I bring him in his senior year.
And you know, again, we had areally good team coming back and
he wasn't good enough to makethe team.
(10:51):
Well, I really want to dosomething special.
So I said to him in our meeting,you know, when I was picking the
team, I said, Jason, I've gotsome good news and some bad
news.
He says, coach, tell me the badnews first.
I said, well, unfortunatelyyou're still not quite good
enough to make the team.
And this time, Mike, he was verydisappointed.
You can see his head droppedout.
But he said, I do have some goodnews.
And his head immediately poppedback up.
(11:12):
He said, yeah, coach, what doyou got in mind?
I said, well, for senior night,because you've been so committed
to our program, I want to giveyou a gift and the gift was, I'm
going to give you a uniform forour final home game.
And I kid people thatperiodically he would ask me
during the season about thatuniform.
And of course I definedperiodically is about every
other day.
He was pretty fired up.
(11:34):
But, I wrote a book about itcalled The Coaching Miracle
because the crazy thing abouthis senior season, we were
expecting a very good team, butwe, after our first two games,
which we won, we hit a realroadblock.
We hit adversity and it's toolong of a story, but it divided
the team.
And think for you and yourlisteners, have you ever played
(11:55):
on a team that didn't get along?
How to work out.
Mike Goldman (11:59):
Not alot of fun.
Jim Johnson (11:59):
Yeah, probably didn't work out too well.
Well, in our situation was nodifferent.
We lost three of our next fivegames.
I didn't think we would loseany, but I did something
different at a Christmastournament, the day of the
championship game.
Cause we won in the first game,but the team that was hosting
was great.
And they had hammered this team,in the other game.
(12:22):
And I brought him in for a shortpractice because it was during
Christmas break.
And normally we bring out balls,we do some shooting drills, we
do some plays and get ready forthe game.
I knew I had to do somethingdifferent because our team was
divided.
So I sat them down on thebleachers and I looked thm right
in the eyes and I shocked them.
I said, guys, I don't want to gothe game tonight.
(12:43):
They looked at me in disarray.
What do you mean?
And I, so I tried to share alittle bit about them, but the
best thing I did, and I think agreat thing for all of our
leaders, is you need to listento your people and I became
vulnerable.
You mentioned Brene Brown, whichis a big part of her topic.
And I said, guys, I don't havethe answers.
(13:03):
But you do, and you got to bewilling to share how we can
unite this team and I seem likeMike, I waited for an hour.
It was probably only 30 seconds,but finally someone said, you
know, shared an idea.
They said, that's great.
Who else has got an idea by theend, everyone had shared
something.
And it really helped unite theteam.
And although we didn't win thatnight, we played a great team
(13:27):
and we lost to them in overtimeand it showed what we could do.
Well, from there, we really gotsome momentum, won eight of our
next nine games going intosenior night.
Senior night was on February15th.
I gave J Mac his first jersey onFebruary 13th.
It was way too big.
It was number 52.
It was normally for a guy thatwould be like 6'3 J Macs 5'9 and
110 pounds.
(13:47):
But he didn't care.
In fact, there was a rumor goingaround in school that he slept
in it for two straight nights.
So that night, for yourlisteners is the way we did
senior night is we would bringall the senior players and the
senior cheerleaders before thegame and we'd bring their
parents or guardians out and wewould honor each of them.
It's a really special night, butI will say it's a night I will
(14:10):
always cherish just to rememberseeing J Mac instead of his
white shirt and black tie.
He's now Donnie number 52 and tosee him embrace his parents in
uniform is a memory I willalways cherish.
Well, now the game begins.
And as you mentioned, there's alot of videos.
ESPN does a really great videothat I often show in my
presentations.
(14:30):
It's very powerful.
But my goal was, Mike, is to gethim in the game where he could
have enough time to score abasket.
Because I thought if he couldscore a basket, that's a memory
he'll have for the rest of life.
Well, I put him in with justover four minutes to go, and the
place goes bananas.
But what I didn't know is we hada very good student body
following.
(14:50):
If you see the video, it's onthere, they call themselves as
six men.
But what I didn't know, whatJason did not know is he as well
is when they, he entered thefloor for the first time, our
student body not only gave him astanding ovation, but they
showed these placards, thesepictures of Jason's face that
one of our parents had madebehind our backs.
(15:12):
And when I saw that, Mike,normally I'm a pretty macho guy.
I normally don't cry atbasketball games.
I sit down and tears areliterally rolling down my face.
I can't believe how they're, sothe game begins and I'll just
show, share a couple of quickthings, a couple of low lights
and a couple of highlights.
The first low light, first timewe get the ball, Jason gets it
(15:32):
in the three point corner.
He's let's go with three.
The crowd stands inanticipation.
It misses by like six feet.
And I know you're not supposedto pray in the public schools,
but I'm praying, dear God,please help him get one basket.
Second possession, he gets amuch shorter shot.
This time it hits the backboard,it hits the rib, it falls off.
(15:53):
I'm thinking, all right, God'sstarting to listen.
We're getting closer.
Then the third possession, hehas a three pointer from the
right wing.
He lets it go.
Magic.
The place explodes.
I'm thinking to myself, God mustbe a basketball fan.
Not only has Jason scored, he'sgot a three pointer.
It can't get better than this,right?
Wrong.
For the next three minutes, JMac turns into his boyhood idol,
(16:16):
the late, great Kobe Bryant.
And I got to fast forward realquick because it's very part of
the story.
Five months after that game,Jason is in California at the
ESPY Awards.
For your listeners that don'tknow, that's kind of the
Grammys.
Or the Oscars for ESPN.
And he's up for the greatestsports moment of the year.
And Mike, I kid you not, one ofthe other finalists is his idol,
(16:41):
Kobe Bryant.
Kobe's up for the same award.
He had scored 81 points in anNBA game.
Jason meets his idol and thenbeats him out for the ESPY.
Mike Goldman (16:49):
That's amazing.
Jim Johnson (16:50):
Well, how does he do that?
Well, after making that firstbasket, he comes down, he makes
another three.
Then he makes a shot where it'sactually his foot is on the
line.
Then he makes a couple, hemisses a couple, the place was
going crazy.
And the two things I'll neverforget with a minute to go.
I'm sitting on the bench, tearsstill rolling down my face.
I can't believe what I'm seeing.
I get a tap on my shoulder.
I look behind me.
(17:11):
It's Jason's mother and she'sbawling her eyes out.
And she whispers in my ear,coach, this is the best gift you
could ever give my son.
What would you have done if youheard that?
I cried harder.
Then, how the game ends is likeout of a Hollywood ending.
With about 10 seconds to go, ouropponents spend support.
And I want to give kudos totheir players and their coach.
(17:33):
They were really good sportsthat night.
They score a basket and ourplayer takes the ball out of
bounds.
Instead of throwing it to ourpoint guard, he throws to J Mac.
And so I seen J Mac dribblingdown and the clocks ticking down
seven, six.
I thought they were just goingto let them go in and make a
short shot layup.
Oh no.
He pulls up like a foot behindthe three point line, almost an
(17:54):
NBA three.
I'm thinking Jason, don't youfor there.
You're going to ruin thismoment.
He launches this rainbow swish.
I look over, our student bodyruns on the floor, our players
run on the floor.
I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I'mliving the movie Rudy, but this
is really true.
And then they put Jason up onhis shoulders and he's got the
game ball over his head.
(18:15):
At this point, I have no ideahow many points he scored.
And our public address announcercomes on and says the leading
score for the Trojans tonight, JMac.
With 20 points, and of course,by math brain, I'm thinking he
played the whole game.
He just scored 160 points.
That's pretty good.
And I'll just say, there's somany lessons about share one
quick, and then we can move onis that, you know, it was so
(18:38):
cool because I mentioned that wehad a lot of adversity where it
split the team for a while.
Was that I had never asked thefour players on the floor to
pass Jason the ball.
Yet in those last four minutesout of their own hearts, they
passed the ball to him eachtime.
And to me.
That's what teamwork is when youshine the light on someone on
your team and they did that tothe best.
Mike Goldman (19:00):
That is such a beautiful story.
I want, how come the moviehasn't been made yet?
Jim Johnson (19:05):
Well, I'm going to share, I don't, can I speak too
much?
The movie Fizzled is a longstory that I can't really share
a lot, but, I can say that, Ihave a connection, with another,
movie production company.
And so we might be able to getthis going.
I'll keep you posted as we goforward.
Mike Goldman (19:24):
Well, I hope so.
And, again, before we get intobusiness and to me, if we ended
just on that story, this whole,this whole episode would be
worth it, but, what's going onwith J Mac today?
Jim Johnson (19:35):
So J Mac actually, he was, as I mentioned, he was
very small, 5'9 115 pounds, Ithink, senior year.
The funny thing is, is I thoughthe might grow because his dad is
6'6 but his mom's 5'2 So, well,he did.
He grew 5 inches after highschool, and he's now 6'2 he's
about 175 pounds.
(19:57):
And he was also a runner in highschool, but because he was
physically not very strong, hewas just an okay runner.
Well, he got back in.
So after being on a program, hegraduated from high school.
He didn't, he went right to workat a local grocery store, but
after a couple of years, he cameback and he said, coach, I
really missed the program.
Can I go back and volunteer?
And he volunteered for my lastnine years.
(20:18):
And the crazy thing is, Mike, wewon four more championships
together.
So for a small fee, I will runthem out to you.
He's been my good luck charm anda little side story.
You talk about how he just keepsinspiring me while we're
coaching together.
He comes in the office one dayand he says, coach.
I thank you so much for lettingme be part of the coaching
(20:38):
staff.
I said, Jason is great to haveyou.
He says, but I really miss beingcompetitive myself.
I'm going to get back intorunning.
I said, really, what are yougoing to do?
He says, I'm going to run theRochester marathon.
So I always talk to our playersabout goals.
And Jason and I always talkedabout goals.
And so I said Jason, what's yourgoal?
He says, coach, I'm going toqualify for the Boston marathon.
Now, I don't know how many ofyour listeners.
(21:00):
know anything about running.
I'm not sure how much you havebackground, but I was a runner,
although I've never run amarathon, but I'm pretty,
familiar with times in that.
I said, so what's the qualifyingtime for your age, Jason?
He says three hours and fiveminutes.
Well, I nearly fell off my chaircause that's a fast marathon.
So, I said, are you sure?
(21:20):
He says, yep.
I'm working with our crosscountry coach.
I'm going to really upgrade mytraining.
Mike, he runs the firstRochester Marathon in three
hours, one minute and 46seconds.
He qualifies for the Boston.
Crazy thing is a month later hedecides, I'm not ready, I got to
prove myself.
And the next year when he couldhave gone, he is actually the
(21:41):
year of the bombing that youguys might remember.
So he runs the RochesterMarathon again.
So he's got to qualify again.
This time he runs it in threeminutes and 52 seconds.
So he qualifies.
So he comes into the office.
He's all pumped up.
I said, so J Mac, what's yourgoal for the Boston Marathon?
He goes, coach, I'm going tobreak three hours.
I said, J Mac, Boston's atougher course.
(22:02):
It's got a higher heartbreakhill.
He goes, I know I've upgraded mytraining.
My first boston Marathon, twohours, 58 minutes and 46
seconds.
The kid never ceases to amazeme.
Mike Goldman (22:14):
He's a superhero.
Jim Johnson (22:16):
Yes, he is.
Mike Goldman (22:18):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
So that incredible story, let'skind of transition.
I know you do a lot of speakingand a lot of work with
businesses.
What are some of the key lessonsthat you learned from basketball
coaching the basketball teamthat we can use over on the
(22:39):
business side?
Jim Johnson (22:41):
Well, like you, Mike, I became a very avid
reader.
And so I obviously read, youknow, a lot of books on coaching
and that kind of thing, but Ialso read a ton of business
books.
And so I developed and it reallyhelped me immensely because the
first half of my career, Ididn't do very well.
And the second half of my careerI did extremely well.
(23:02):
And so I learned a lot.
And what I did, one of thepresentations I talk about is
how to be a more effectiveleader and I talk about seven
keys.
And the first key I talk aboutis what we call clarifying your
vision.
And really we talk aboutdeveloping your own personal
mission, because if you don'thave clarity of how to lead
(23:24):
yourself, it's hard to leadothers.
And then giving clarity of whatyour own team or business or
organization mission statementis.
And so when I took over, Iactually, and the other good
little sidelight is that Ibecame a head coach at a local
high school about 20 minutesfrom where I grew up at 25 years
old, which is pretty young.
(23:45):
And I did such a great job,Mike, that I led that team to 17
consecutive losses.
And then I ended up leaving thatjob because I didn't like what
the administration had to say tome.
Of course, what they said to mewas, you're fired.
Mike Goldman (24:00):
So they fired you and then you said, that's it.
I'm deciding to leave.
I like it.
Jim Johnson (24:04):
Yeah, yeah.
So, I decided to leave becauseof their directions.
But after that I got a nicething because I got mentored by
a year, and the crazy thing is Igot mentored by a junior college
coach.
I was his assistant, and hisname was Bill Van Gundy, and for
your listeners, if they followbasketball, they've probably
heard of his two sons.
Jeff and Stan have both beenhead coaches in the NBA, and the
(24:26):
interesting thing back then,they were not, you know, they
were my age and younger.
Coach Van Gundy took me underhis wing and I really started to
get clarity.
So going to that point one is Istarted to really, I read Dr.
Covey's book, seven habits andyou know, one of the things he
talked a lot about was gettingclarity about your personal
mission.
(24:46):
And that's something I talked toleaders about, you know, why you
put it on this earth, what areyour most important core values
and you live.
And so I share my personalmission statement is to be an
outstanding role model thatmakes a positive difference in
the world by helping others maketheir dreams come true.
And why that helped me immenselyand why I encourage your
(25:07):
listeners to get clarity on thatis because you're not going to
be perfect.
No one is okay.
Other than Jesus.
So, but what we're going tofigure out is.
Is every time you slip away, ifyou have clarity of your
mission, you can come back toand say, Hey, for my case, you
know, was I a good role model?
No, I wasn't.
I got to make that change.
(25:27):
Was I being someone that wasserving and helping others make
their dreams come true?
I didn't do a very good job withthat.
So it gave me a real foundationand that helped me immensely and
be a better coach because I ledmyself better, which led to
that.
And then.
I know in a lot of businesses,they have a mission statement.
But one of the things, that welearned, I learned from a guy
(25:50):
that I know you've read a lot ofhis books as well, Patrick
Lencioni.
He calls it the CRO, the ChiefReminding Officer.
And that's what I started to dovery good is that I wanted to
develop our own team mission.
Because when you go into abusiness, usually they have a
mission, but they under, theydon't live it.
Okay, I'm sure you work a lot ofbusinesses, you know, they have
(26:11):
a mission statement up, but youask the people on the leadership
team and most of them don't evenknow what it is.
Okay.
So if you don't know what it is,it's hard to live it.
So as a CRO, you've got to beliving it and sharing it
consistently.
And for example, like when Itook over my first program that
we able to get things going, itwas a small school.
(26:32):
And when I met with all theplayers, I heard about what
should our mission be?
Well, they had only won twogames a year before.
So their mission to me wascoach, we want to win more
games.
I said, but like same thing inbusiness, you know, you got to
make a profit to live.
But what I found in all my studyof businesses, you know,
athletic teams, if your missionis not bigger than just winning
(26:54):
games or making a profit, youusually don't last.
So what we developed in our casewas we wanted to develop winners
on and off the court.
And as a leader, goodness, ChiefReminding Officer, is I've got
to consistently live that andshare.
And define to them.
What does it mean to win on thecourt?
What does it mean to win off thecourt?
(27:14):
And as a leader, you got to leadby example.
And you also got to be doingconsistently sharing the
message.
And, you know, a lot of thingsI've heard this a lot.
I think there's a lot of truth.
Another thing, leaders, I thinkthat are effective is they're
the chief storytellers.
They have great stories to getpeople to buy into the mission.
Mike Goldman (27:33):
And very often what I see on the business side
is vision, mission, whateverwords you want to put around it.
They're not terribly inspiring.
And very often their words thatwere put together seemingly by a
legal staff or, you know, theirwords that were put together,
you know, and it's shareholdervalue and blah, blah, blah.
(27:55):
And most of the people in theorganization, I don't give a rip
about that stuff.
But something like, you know,we're building, you know,
winners on and off the court.
I mean, businesses could do thesame thing, make it something
that actually matters to peopleand is inspiring to people, not
just we're going to make theshareholders a few extra
pennies.
Jim Johnson (28:15):
Right.
It's a great point.
Well said.
Mike Goldman (28:18):
So, all right.
So number one, you said therewere seven.
Number one was vision.
Jim Johnson (28:21):
So number two is building trust and in building
trust, you know, when I do apresentation on leadership or
like I'm doing one on teamculture, I'll ask them, is trust
important?
And Mike, you probably canguess, and your listeners can
guess that everybody raisestheir hand, you know.
Mike Goldman (28:36):
Of course.
Jim Johnson (28:37):
Trust is okay.
But then I kind of shock them.
And I challenged them.
I said, well, how many of youare intentional about building a
trust plan?
And I kind of like, they kind oflook at me a little.
What do you mean?
I said, well, if you're going tobuild trust, you got to have a
plan on how you're going toimplement that.
So I share our three pointbecause as I mentioned, my first
(29:01):
head coaching job, it was adisaster.
But then I took over three otherprograms that were all losing.
We're able to turn around andthat's what we really try to
focus.
And when I talk to my staff.
I said, these are the threethings we're going to focus in
on building trust one, you haveto align your words and actions.
You have to be consistent.
If we say we're going topractice at six o'clock in the
(29:21):
morning.
I got to be there before six.
I got to be enthusiastic, youknow, whatever you stand for.
That's got to be consistent.
And you know what hurts leadersis when they say one thing.
And do something else.
It cracks the trust code.
Number two is I think you got tobuild your relationships and
(29:42):
tell each other the truth.
Now, I think there is onecaveat.
I think there are times whereyou can call someone out in
front of everybody because they,you know, they can handle it.
And it's a great example.
But also as a leader, there aretimes where you shouldn't do
that.
That should be a one on onemeeting and sharing, you know,
what you like or dislike and,you know, how we can correct
(30:03):
that.
And then the third thing,because I took over four
programs about losing, and threeof them we did well.
Is I think, you know, this isold Ken Blanchard, the one
minute manager, but you got tofocus on catching people doing
right.
And by doing that, you have tobe specific with your price.
Let me illustrate.
If I say to you, nice job, Mike.
(30:24):
You know, you'll probably get asmile and you'll say, but then
it was like, okay, what did I doto have a nice job?
But if I said, Mike, that wasawesome.
How you dove on the floor forthat loose ball.
That's what championship playersdo on championship teams.
What do you think I've done now?
They, have a lot of clarity.
We're trying to build achampionship program here and
(30:45):
dive in another four for looseball is something you're going
to be priced for.
So, you know, those are thethings that is you come in a
leader and those were ourfoundation pieces.
But I think you can't do enoughwith, with really focusing on
how building trust.
And the last thing I'll sayabout trust is remember this.
And I think everybody's agreedwith this, that it usually takes
(31:06):
time to build trust.
But you can destroy it with onereally bad decision and choice.
And I'll give you a quickillustration.
One of the things I did, becauseliving my mission, my last 23
years, I shared with all ourplayers and parents at our
players parents meeting, afterall our teams were chosen, that
I would not drink alcohol duringthe season.
(31:27):
Now that was a choice I made, Ididn't have to do that.
Now, if I say that, and twoweeks later in the season, I get
pulled over for DWI, what do youthink that would have done to
that trust account?
Mike Goldman (31:39):
Yeah, gone.
Jim Johnson (31:40):
Gone.
And probably never get it backwith that team if, you know,
probably would have taken years.
Now fortunately, I didn't makethat choice.
But think about all the timesyou see leaders make those types
of bad choices.
You know, in my world, BobHuggins just lost his job
because of, you know, a drinkingand driving incident was a major
factor in that.
So, I think that that'ssomething as you're building
(32:03):
trust, you've got to be liningthose words and actions
consistently.
Mike Goldman (32:09):
So number one is vision.
Number two is trust.
number three?
Jim Johnson (32:13):
Third is called creating the edge and creating
the edge.
I know, Mike, you're an veryavid reader and so am I.
And I believe as a leader, youhave to be consistently finding
ways to get better yourself soyou can improve your team.
And to do that, a coupleexamples, like one of the things
(32:36):
there are so many things you doto create it, but a couple of
the would be one is I taught ourplayers how to goal set.
And so we would come over to myhouse.
We did a team goal setting withthe famous think it ink it.
I used to give my team a quoteevery day.
And one of my goal quotes is youknow, that when you want
something, another one I alwaystalk about is you can't hit a
(32:58):
target you don't have, so that'swhy we want clarity, and I would
teach them about, you know, andI would get their input about
what our team goals, we put themin writing, and then I believe
this is a huge key as a leader.
You got to help your people settheir individual goals, but you
got to have those one on onemeetings so that you know what
(33:18):
their individual goals and howthey can fit their role to help
meet the team goals.
Because if you have one personjust work on the side just on
individual goals in a businessor a team sport, you're going to
run into trouble.
And so that's where you as aleader, you got to make sure
that you're helping them in thatalignment.
And another thing.
I just did a talk to a businessabout team culture is I think
(33:41):
you've got a another thing increating an edge is consistently
recognize your people, whichgoes back to a little bit of
what we talked about, but I givethem some ideas like one is
getting clarity, becauserelationships are so important
on do you know your people onyour team, their important
dates?
Like, illustration, got thisfrom a business book.
(34:03):
Every single player in ourprogram, I had five teams under
my direction, two middle school,three high school, received a
birthday card personally signedby me.
Not just because I felt I neededto know that a little bit about
each person and I would get aseventh grader to come down in
our visit office and say, coach,thanks so much for the birthday
cards.
(34:23):
You think he was attracted toour program.
So I think, you know, recognizeit with adults.
I think it's even more importantto get, you know, not only
birthdays, but anniversaries orif they have children,
children's birthdays, you know,the more that you can get to
know and build thatrelationship, I think is really
powerful.
Another idea that I juststarted, the last year or two,
(34:44):
is I send out personal videos topeople.
Because we all know now how bigsocial media and videos are big,
right?
But when's the last time youreceived a video personalized
from somebody?
You know, so that's a little waythat you can say, I care about
you and you know, I've done thatwith people that are friends of
(35:07):
mine.
There's their birthdays.
I've done it with just a checkin.
Hey, Mike, how are things going?
I haven't talked to you in awhile.
Just want to check in.
Let's let's find a day on thecalendar to catch up.
Or like I saw, you know, talkabout Facebook or one of my
friends in another state.
I saw he went in for surgery.
So I sent him a video next day.
Hey Darren, I hope your surgerywent well.
(35:29):
I'm thinking about you keepingmy prayers, you know, that's
pretty powerful stuff.
You know.
Mike Goldman (35:33):
Love it, but back to the goal setting.
I heard something reallyinteresting.
It's probably four or five yearsago.
Jim Johnson (35:39):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (35:40):
But I grew up in New York I was a big Knick fan
you talk about Jeff Van Gundy.
Jim Johnson (35:44):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (35:44):
When you grow up in New York City you're not as
much as of a college ball fanbecause you got all the
professional teams right herebut my daughter went to the
University of Maryland.
Jim Johnson (35:55):
Okay.
Mike Goldman (35:55):
Which became a big 10 school.
So of a sudden I became a big, abig Terps fan, a big Maryland
Terrapins fans.
Jim Johnson (36:02):
Right.
Right.
Mike Goldman (36:02):
And they're pretty good in basketball.
Jim Johnson (36:04):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (36:04):
And, I read a story about them a few years ago
where the coach did something Ithought was amazing, where he
didn't just have each of theplayers set individual goals for
themselves.
He did that.
But what he did was he then paireach of the players had kind of
a buddy.
And when you opened your locker,you saw in your locker was
(36:28):
whoever you were paired up withwas their goals.
So, their part of their role isnot only to reach their own
goals, but they had to knowtheir partner's goals and hold
them accountable for it, coachthem on it, help them achieve
it.
So that I thought was such aninteresting idea to the whole.
(36:48):
You know, we is more important,you know we instead me, to
really drive that home.
So I love that idea.
Jim Johnson (36:54):
That's a great idea.
I think, you know, one of thethings I've heard for years, I
just started about a year ago.
I have a young guy that, we doan accountability call every
week.
And I know with you, you know,in your coaching, you know,
you're working with CEOs andleaders that, you know, having
that accountability coach orpartner, I think is really
powerful.
So I love that idea.
(37:14):
I wish I had known that, Mike,years ago, because I would have
implemented that with my team.
So.
Mike Goldman (37:20):
Life's not over yet.
You may have another team.
Jim Johnson (37:22):
Yes, yeah, that's right.
Mike Goldman (37:23):
So, number one was vision.
Number two is trust.
Number three was creating theedge.
What's number four.
Jim Johnson (37:29):
Four is effective communication.
And with that, you know, the twothings is that I do encourage
leaders, because, we, mostpeople, including myself, was
scared to death.
Especially early in my career inpublic speaking, but I think as
a leader, I've seen really goodleaders that are good public
(37:51):
speakers, but I think it doesenhance because, you know, we
talked a little bit about beingthe chief storyteller.
So I think the ability to publicspeak is a really positive trait
that I and the great thing aboutthis as much as many people are
scared of it.
It's a learn skill.
And you can get better.
I remember my first couplepresentations, hey you know, I
(38:11):
thought it was good.
I was pretty bad.
But now I feel like I'm prettygood because I've got a lot of
training.
I've practiced a lot.
And but it's so true.
It's a skill.
But I say this with the factthat it is a powerful thing to
be a good public speaker, butthe best thing as far as
effective communication.
(38:32):
And this is something I think Iattribute to why I don't think I
was nearly as successful, earlyin my career is because I was
not a very good listener.
And I really started to takepride.
And I'll give you anillustration.
You know, you work a lot ofleadership teams.
Well, my leadership team was Ihad two, one would be my staff.
And my other was my varsity teamcaptains, and we had a
(38:54):
leadership meeting with my teamcaptains every week.
And when I started that, I wouldalways come in with an agenda,
it was organized, but it was allabout me.
Probably my last seven or eightyears, Mike, I came in, and yes,
I might have an agenda item thatwe got to cover, but it was
pretty much all about them.
I would come in, I'd say, heyguys, how's the team chemistry?
(39:17):
How can I coach you better thisweek, is there anybody hurting
on the team that we should givesome special extra attention to?
And I just start, you know, I'dalways come in with five or six
questions.
First one was always about teamchemistry, and they felt like
they had real ownership of theteam.
Because now they were sharing,they were the leaders, you know
and that was a really powerfulchange.
(39:39):
So I highly recommend, leadersthat you become a great
questioner, but when you askquestions, then be willing to be
open to receive the answers.
Mike Goldman (39:50):
I agree wholeheartedly that's such an
important skill that leadersdon't have.
In fact, one of the things Ikeep drilling home to the
leadership teams I work with isthat they need to be better
coaches.
That's the word I used.
Jim Johnson (40:04):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (40:04):
They need to be better coaches because I believe
a coach in business terms, acoach is someone who doesn't
necessarily know all theanswers, but they know the
questions to ask it's why I cancall myself a coach and work
with the marketing firm and thesoftware company and the
construction firm.
(40:24):
And how can I do that?
I'm not an expert on no, but I'mpretty good at knowing the right
questions to ask.
So I love that idea.
And I absolutely know that it'ssomething that is crazy lacking
in leaders today, especiallybecause here's, I think it's
lacking, not so much becauseit's hard to figure out the
(40:46):
right questions.
I don't know that is a skill,but I don't think the hard part.
The hard part is it is so mucheasier and quicker, or so they
think easier and quicker just togive the answers.
And we know, yeah, short termthat's quicker, long term, uh,
uh, so I love that.
Jim Johnson (41:08):
100% with it.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Mike Goldman (41:10):
All right, so we've got number one, vision,
number two, trust, number three,creating the edge, number four,
effective communication, what'snumber five?
Jim Johnson (41:19):
Five is one that I think, people take for granted
because it's so obvious, but Ithink in all my observation of
leaders, boy, there's a lot thataren't doing well and that's
leading by example.
And one of the things that weused to really talk to our
players all about this, one ofmy assistants coach shared this
and I thought it was so powerfuland I shared it all the time is
(41:41):
you are always on stage as aleader.
If you don't think people arewatching what you say and do,
you are wrong.
You are always on stage and whatyou do.
And I'll give you anillustration, Mike, as a story.
So I mentioned that we keptlosing in our sectional
tournament.
We ended up winning in the firsttime, Jason's magical year when
(42:05):
he had his magical game.
But you know what I did, I wasstudying and like, why do we
keep losing it?
And you know what I realized?
That I was not doing a good jobwith key number five during the
postseason in the regular seasonand the offseason.
I was someone that wasconsistent.
I was keep cool under pressure.
(42:25):
I can handle adversity.
In the postseason I just wantedso badly to win the championship
that I was a different personwhen we had adversity.
I handled very poorly.
Well, who do you think thataffected?
Our players, because they're,you know, a reflection of how I
handle adversity.
(42:46):
So I made a pact after thatunbelievable game and we had all
this media attention that I wasgoing to be a different coach
during the postseason.
And the big thing is I did is nomatter what happened in any of
those postseason games, I wasgoing to be the rock for them.
Well, we had a by.
We won our first game prettyeasily, so there was no test for
(43:07):
coach.
Semi finals, my big stumblingblock, six times taking teams
there.
We are up 10 at halftime.
We lose the entire lead.
We're losing in the fourthquarter.
The old coach would have lostit, and we probably lost that
game.
The coach that now realized howimportant leading by example is.
(43:28):
I kept my cool.
I stayed positive with them.
Our players responded.
And we won the game.
We went to the section fivechampionship in the finals.
Mike, my first championshipgame, we have all this media
attention.
We have a sold out arena of 10,000 people.
We're down 13 to three afterfour minutes.
(43:48):
And I'm like the old coachwould've lost it.
The coach that knows howimportant leading by example.
I stayed cool.
We ended up railing and we wonthe game in the last 10 seconds
of the game.
So, you know, and that just agreat lesson.
And because of the understandingthat it, you know, my first 19
years, we never made the finals.
(44:09):
In my last 11 years, we made thefinals eight times and won six.
And that's why I just, I reallywant to emphasize as simple as
the statement is, you got to bea model for your people.
Mike Goldman (44:20):
And I think where that comes through for leaders,
and I'm going to talkspecifically to the CEOs, to the
owners is it's very easy.
I mean, absolutely grace underpressure being a rock under
pressure.
Yes, that's part of it.
The other part of it that I seeis when we talk about company
(44:44):
culture and when we talk aboutnon negotiable core values,
these non negotiable behaviorsfor an organization.
I talk to CEOs who want todelegate that to their head of
HR and they're like, yeah, Iknow this culture stuff's
important, but I've got to go.
(45:04):
This is who I am.
And what I tell them is look.
You can't, delegate culture toanyone if you are not a model of
your core values.
If you're not living it everyday, then throw away the posters
or the plaques or whateveryou're putting your vision,
mission, all that stuff, throwit away.
(45:26):
You have to be the model, andwhen those leaders are not the
model and they try to delegateit to someone else, the culture
becomes a joke, and that'sreally dangerous.
So, I love that.
What's number six?
Jim Johnson (45:40):
Number six is what I call leaving a profit.
And simply that is developingyour leadership philosophy.
And what I used to share withour players, our philosophy,
leaving a profit simply meansthat everything that we touch,
we're going to turn to gold, notgarbage.
In other words, everything wetouch, we're going to make
better, not worse.
(46:00):
It's a simple philosophy.
Again, leading by example,though, I'll give you a quick
illustration.
Well, we would travel to ouropponent's school to play in a
way game.
We would use one of theopponent's locker rooms and we'd
walk in and I usually would walkin, you know, with the players
and if I saw a piece of trash onthe floor, what do you think I
(46:22):
did?
Mike Goldman (46:23):
Pick it up.
Jim Johnson (46:23):
I picked it up and threw it out.
Now, I didn't put it there, butwhat was I teaching my guys?
That everything we touch, we'regoing to make better, not worse.
And I think as a leader, you gotto be really cognizant again by
leading by example, but thelittle things that you do, you
said it so well, are you livingyour core values every day?
(46:46):
You know, if respect is one ofour core values, for example,
and yet we go to a restauranttogether and I call the waiter a
jerk in front of everybody andget into a big argument am I
living the core values?
Probably not.
And so I think that's reallyimportant is you develop that
philosophy is this somethingyou're going to live and teach
(47:07):
to your people each day.
Mike Goldman (47:09):
You talked earlier about, Pat Lencioni, an author
that we both, you know, likereading.
And if you haven't read any ofhis stuff, read it.
It's easy.
You could read it on a flight.
They're stories.
And, he was talking, and Iforget which book it was, or it
may have even been in a keynoteI saw him do.
And if you've never seen himspeak live, he's not only really
smart, he could be a standupcomic.
(47:30):
He's great.
But he was talking about theimportance of getting people out
of the normal environment whenyou're interviewing them for a
job and back to leaving a profitand respect what you're saying
is, he gave an example of goingout to dinner with the person he
(47:52):
was interviewing and he wouldpurposely tell the waiter, he'd
like call them before, tell thewaiter to screw up the guy's
order.
Jim Johnson (48:01):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (48:03):
To see how the person would react.
Would they be gracious andhandle it well, or would they
show total disrespect for theserver?
Which would tell you somethingabout who that person really is,
regardless of what they said onan interview.
Jim Johnson (48:18):
Exactly.
That's...
Mike Goldman (48:19):
So I love that.
Jim Johnson (48:20):
Very well said.
Great illustration for sure.
Mike Goldman (48:23):
All right.
And what's the final one?
What's number 7?
Jim Johnson (48:26):
Final one is servant leadership, which is
something that, you know, wehear a lot about but you know,
with all my study and researchis I believe servant leadership
and first of all, defining itfor me is that the traditional
leadership pyramid was theleaders on top and all the
everybody works for the leaders.
In the servant leadership modelyou're flipping the pyramid.
(48:47):
And now the leaders has aservice mindset that they are
serving the people that theyworked with.
And the other piece that I thinkis so essential and servant
leadership is the ability toteach your people how they can
lead themselves and lead others.
And I think the greatest thingyou could say is a gift.
(49:08):
And it's something certainly Iwould not have been thinking
about in my first half of mycareer is, how can I develop
leaders that are better than me?
Cause that's a hard thing toswallow, right?
But when you do that and youknow, I'm proud to say like,
I've been out of coaching nowfor seven years and my JV coach,
he was with me for 15 years.
He took over and, he's made thefinals four times in seven
(49:32):
years.
Remember Mike, I mentioned Ididn't make a final my first 19
years and he has not won one, soI feel bad.
In fact, I had lunch with himtoday and I said, but Mike, it
took me 19 years to get to theone final.
You've been there four times inseven years, but I'm really
proud of the fact that, youknow, we spent a lot of time
together and he's become thisreally effective leader.
(49:53):
It's really cool to see.
Mike Goldman (49:55):
Love it.
He needs to get J Mac back onthe
Jim Johnson (49:57):
Yes, a gameplay exactly.
Exactly.
Mike Goldman (49:58):
Back on the bench.
Jim Johnson (49:59):
It might be the missing key for sure.
Mike Goldman (50:02):
Well, coach, this was great.
Super inspiring story.
You're inspiring.
J Mac's inspiring.
So I love it.
Where should people go?
And this will all be in the shownotes, but where should people
go if they want to buy yourbook, find out more about you,
get you to come speak to theirorganization, where would they
find you?
Yeah.
So I'll just say,coachjimjohnson.com that way.
(50:23):
I wouldn't forget it.
That's my website and we do havea free monthly newsletter.
We do a free weekly blog thatyou can sign up.
I also do a video series onYouTube And Mike, we'll get you
on here one of these days.
We have a podcast called theLimitless Leadership Lounge
where our focus is to help youngand emerging leaders.
And we just completed our secondyear.
So, check us out on that aswell.
(50:44):
I think you'll enjoy that.
Love it.
I accept.
I'd love, let's definitely talkabout it.
Well, as I always say, if youwant a great company, you need a
great leadership team and coach,thanks so much for getting us
there today.
I appreciate it.
Jim Johnson (51:01):
My pleasure.
It was great to be with you,Mike.
Mike Goldman (51:04):
Thanks.
if your mission is not bigger than just winning
games or making a profit, youusually don't last.
So what we developed in our casewas we wanted to develop winners
on and off the court.
And as a leader, goodness, ChiefReminding Officer, is I've got
to consistently live that andshare.
And define to them.
What does it mean to win on thecourt?
(00:23):
What does it mean to win off thecourt?
And as a leader, you got to leadby example.
And you also got to be doingconsistently sharing the
message.
And, you know, Another thing,leaders, that are effective is
they're the chief storytellers.
They have great stories to getpeople to buy into the mission.
Mike Goldman (00:46):
You made it to the better leadership team show the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people doing the right things soyou can grow your business
without losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth fulfillment and the valueyour company adds to the world
(01:07):
by building a better leadershipteam.
Alright, let's go.
I'm going to warn you that this intro is going to
be a little bit longer than mostbecause the story here is
something that you need to hearand you'll hear more from our,
(01:32):
you know, from our great guest,but it's going to start with a
longer than normal interview.
Based on what transpired in afew short moments in early 2006,
Coach Jim Johnson is now anauthority on the subject of
realizing your dreams.
Coach Johnson has developedwinning high school basketball
(01:53):
teams for 30 years, taking overthree losing varsity programs
and turning them into winners inshort periods of time, of his
428 career victories, one inparticular, will surely never be
duplicated.
On February 15, 2006, CoachJohnson made the kind hearted
(02:16):
gesture of inserting hisautistic manager, James
McElwain, now known to the worldas J Mac, into Greece Athena
High School's final home game,which the Trojans won 79 to 43.
J Mac scored 20 points in justover four minutes, including
(02:37):
six, three point baskets tobecome an instant national
celebrity.
Coach Johnson also was featuredin major news outlets around the
country.
And I remember back then seeingthat on all the news programs.
To make the Hollywood endingcomplete, Grease Athena captured
the first Section 5 title ofCoach Johnson's career a few
(02:58):
weeks later.
In his many public speakingappearances, the Rochester, New
York resident relates his rolein a basketball game that got
Hollywood calling.
He also emphasizes theimportance of teamwork and
sportsmanship, delivering histalks with a hard fed style that
has brought audiences to theirfeet.
(03:19):
Now, in addition to all that,there's two other reasons I am
so excited to have Coach JimJohnson with us.
Number one, some of you mayknow, I have a son who's
actually, as of recording thisepisode in a few days, going to
turn 29, who is on the autisticspectrum.
He's got Asperger's.
(03:40):
So, when we say heartfelt, man,I feel it, big time.
And separate from that, I'vealways been interested since I
started the show in taking somenon business leadership lessons
from sports, from music, fromdirecting from wherever it might
come from taking non leadershiplessons into the business world.
(04:03):
And this is really my firstchance to do that.
So coach, you want to, should Icall you coach Johnson or Jim?
What do you want me to call you?
Jim Johnson (04:11):
You know, coach or Jim are fine.
Mike, as I said, a couple ofthings, coaches to me is an
honor that I cherish because Idid it for 35 years and also
I've been called a lot worse.
Mike Goldman (04:24):
So love it.
I'm going to call you coach.
I like that.
So coach, I like to start all ofmy shows with guests with a
really important question.
After all, it's the betterleadership team show.
So we want to focus onleadership teams in one word.
What do you believe is the onemost important characteristic of
(04:45):
a great leadership team?
Jim Johnson (04:48):
Well, there's certainly a lot, but the one
that always jumps out to me,although I'm going to cheat and
give you a second one, but byfirst one, it jumps out to me
because one of my core values isone of the things we really
spend a lot of time with ourplayers on.
And that is respect I don'tthink you can have a great
leadership team and a greatgroup in any type of team.
(05:08):
If you don't have a greatrespect for each other, which
will develop two other words.
I think love is a reallyimportant word.
And when you can build thatwhere people are really caring,
which leads to, I guess, theother word that I always jumps
out to me is, how do you buildtrust?
So.
Mike Goldman (05:26):
I love hearing that.
And it's interesting how oftenthat word love comes up.
You know, I interviewed someone,not too long ago, an episode,
called love as a businessstrategy.
and I just did another interviewwhere love came up as
leadership.
And I was listening to BreneBrown had a podcast called, Oh
(05:50):
my God.
Because she's got a few podcastsand I forgot the name of the
courageous leadership, somethinglike that.
I may be getting it wrong, butshe was talking about some work
she did with the Air Force.
And she was talking to an AirForce general who didn't use the
word love, but he said the mostimportant tenet of leadership in
the Air Force is having anaffection for the people that
(06:14):
you lead.
I'm like Air Force affection.
I don't put those two together,but it's amazing how off how
often love and affection comesup.
So, I appreciate that.
So, coach, tell us before we getinto some of the lessons on
leadership.
I want to know more more aboutthat night.
And if people, you know, if youlook up.
(06:34):
You know, coach Jim Johnson, yougo to his website and we'll give
his links later.
You'll, find the videos all overthe place, you know, on the web,
but tell me more about thatnight and what you were
thinking.
I want to know kind of, whatwere you thinking before you
made that decision to book J Macin?
What were you thinking during,what were you thinking and
after?
(06:55):
We know the story, but what wereyou thinking throughout that?
Jim Johnson (06:59):
So I think in context, Mike, I got to take you
back just to give you a littlequick background so that it
because it makes it moreunderstandable to your audience
is that Jason tried out for ourteam three consecutive years.
He tried out for the JVs.
I was the varsity coach and myJV coach was one they really
(07:19):
recognized that even thoughJason wasn't very talented,
Jason's on the autism spectrum.
When he tried out for the JVteam, he was five, six and maybe
90 pounds soaking wet.
So he, and he wasn't a verytalented player, but some of the
other characteristics.
And one of the things I talkedto leaders is do you have
clarity on how you pick yourteam?
And that's something so and someof our characteristics,
(07:42):
obviously talent was one ofthem.
But other things were, were youa we over me guy?
We called it.
Were you a person that had apassion for the game of
basketball?
Were you coachable?
And so my JV coach came to me.
I said, coach, Jason's not avery good player, but boy, he's
got, other than talent, he's gotsome of the other
characteristics.
(08:03):
I want to keep him in theprogram.
And I said, well, what do yougot in mind?
He says, I'm going to offer himthe team manager and I'm going
to let him practice with theteam.
And that's what he did.
And I've got to admit early on,there was some trials and
tribulations as the team gotused to Jason and Jason got used
to his teammates.
But because we had built apretty good culture, I really
started to see a bond.
(08:23):
In fact, Mike he used to warm myheart because in our high school
situation, we would play a JVgame and then the varsity game
would follow.
And Jason would always come in awhite shirt and black tie.
And after the JV game, he'd bewhat I call a ted in disarray
because he would be so pumped upfor the game.
So his shirt will be hangingout, his tie will be on
(08:44):
sideways.
And to see one of our varsityplayers always go over and get
them all straightened out to getthem to sit on the bench for the
varsity game is something Ireally cherish.
Fast forward.
So the other thing that wasunique about Jason, besides some
of his challenges in life, wasthat he didn't make the team.
And Mike, I could tell you, Iwas a head coach for 30 years.
(09:04):
I could count on one hand, theamount of players that they
didn't make the team would comeback out.
And if they did, it was usuallya half hearted effort.
Jason was different.
Jason came to all our off seasonworkouts between his sophomore
and junior year.
I was picking him up at hishouse because he loved
basketball like I did.
We started to build a reallynice bond tries out for a team
(09:25):
as a junior.
The team I coach, the varsitydoesn't make it, but I ask them
to serve as team manager, onelittle side story.
So you mentioned that we won ourfirst section five championship.
Well, that was kind of a bigstumbling block and think of the
people listening.
If you ever had a majorstumbling block where you didn't
ever think you were going to getthrough.
(09:46):
Well, in our situation.
I had a lot of winning teams,but we kept losing in a
postseason tournament.
In fact, going into Jason'sjunior year, we had lost five
times in the sectionalsemifinals, never making the
finals.
So Jason, in our first meetingas junior year, I walk in the
room and he immediately raiseshis hand.
He says, coach, I need to sharesomething.
(10:07):
I said, sure, J Mac.
He says, we're going to, we knowyou've never won the section
five championship as a coach.
I said, thanks Jason, for thereminder, but this year is going
to be different.
We're going to, adopt thismantra, stay focused, and we're
going to help you win your firstsection five championship.
Mike, we have another greatyear.
We get to the semifinals now forthe sixth time in my career, and
(10:31):
we lose at the buzzer to ourcrosstown rival.
We are devastated.
But Jason was such a greatinspiration because he was more
bound and determined to make theteam and help us win our first
section five championship hissenior year.
I bring him in his senior year.
And you know, again, we had areally good team coming back and
he wasn't good enough to makethe team.
(10:51):
Well, I really want to dosomething special.
So I said to him in our meeting,you know, when I was picking the
team, I said, Jason, I've gotsome good news and some bad
news.
He says, coach, tell me the badnews first.
I said, well, unfortunatelyyou're still not quite good
enough to make the team.
And this time, Mike, he was verydisappointed.
You can see his head droppedout.
But he said, I do have some goodnews.
And his head immediately poppedback up.
(11:12):
He said, yeah, coach, what doyou got in mind?
I said, well, for senior night,because you've been so committed
to our program, I want to giveyou a gift and the gift was, I'm
going to give you a uniform forour final home game.
And I kid people thatperiodically he would ask me
during the season about thatuniform.
And of course I definedperiodically is about every
other day.
He was pretty fired up.
(11:34):
But, I wrote a book about itcalled The Coaching Miracle
because the crazy thing abouthis senior season, we were
expecting a very good team, butwe, after our first two games,
which we won, we hit a realroadblock.
We hit adversity and it's toolong of a story, but it divided
the team.
And think for you and yourlisteners, have you ever played
(11:55):
on a team that didn't get along?
How to work out.
Mike Goldman (11:59):
Not alot of fun.
Jim Johnson (11:59):
Yeah, probably didn't work out too well.
Well, in our situation was nodifferent.
We lost three of our next fivegames.
I didn't think we would loseany, but I did something
different at a Christmastournament, the day of the
championship game.
Cause we won in the first game,but the team that was hosting
was great.
And they had hammered this team,in the other game.
(12:22):
And I brought him in for a shortpractice because it was during
Christmas break.
And normally we bring out balls,we do some shooting drills, we
do some plays and get ready forthe game.
I knew I had to do somethingdifferent because our team was
divided.
So I sat them down on thebleachers and I looked thm right
in the eyes and I shocked them.
I said, guys, I don't want to gothe game tonight.
(12:43):
They looked at me in disarray.
What do you mean?
And I, so I tried to share alittle bit about them, but the
best thing I did, and I think agreat thing for all of our
leaders, is you need to listento your people and I became
vulnerable.
You mentioned Brene Brown, whichis a big part of her topic.
And I said, guys, I don't havethe answers.
(13:03):
But you do, and you got to bewilling to share how we can
unite this team and I seem likeMike, I waited for an hour.
It was probably only 30 seconds,but finally someone said, you
know, shared an idea.
They said, that's great.
Who else has got an idea by theend, everyone had shared
something.
And it really helped unite theteam.
And although we didn't win thatnight, we played a great team
(13:27):
and we lost to them in overtimeand it showed what we could do.
Well, from there, we really gotsome momentum, won eight of our
next nine games going intosenior night.
Senior night was on February15th.
I gave J Mac his first jersey onFebruary 13th.
It was way too big.
It was number 52.
It was normally for a guy thatwould be like 6'3 J Macs 5'9 and
110 pounds.
(13:47):
But he didn't care.
In fact, there was a rumor goingaround in school that he slept
in it for two straight nights.
So that night, for yourlisteners is the way we did
senior night is we would bringall the senior players and the
senior cheerleaders before thegame and we'd bring their
parents or guardians out and wewould honor each of them.
It's a really special night, butI will say it's a night I will
(14:10):
always cherish just to rememberseeing J Mac instead of his
white shirt and black tie.
He's now Donnie number 52 and tosee him embrace his parents in
uniform is a memory I willalways cherish.
Well, now the game begins.
And as you mentioned, there's alot of videos.
ESPN does a really great videothat I often show in my
presentations.
(14:30):
It's very powerful.
But my goal was, Mike, is to gethim in the game where he could
have enough time to score abasket.
Because I thought if he couldscore a basket, that's a memory
he'll have for the rest of life.
Well, I put him in with justover four minutes to go, and the
place goes bananas.
But what I didn't know is we hada very good student body
following.
(14:50):
If you see the video, it's onthere, they call themselves as
six men.
But what I didn't know, whatJason did not know is he as well
is when they, he entered thefloor for the first time, our
student body not only gave him astanding ovation, but they
showed these placards, thesepictures of Jason's face that
one of our parents had madebehind our backs.
(15:12):
And when I saw that, Mike,normally I'm a pretty macho guy.
I normally don't cry atbasketball games.
I sit down and tears areliterally rolling down my face.
I can't believe how they're, sothe game begins and I'll just
show, share a couple of quickthings, a couple of low lights
and a couple of highlights.
The first low light, first timewe get the ball, Jason gets it
(15:32):
in the three point corner.
He's let's go with three.
The crowd stands inanticipation.
It misses by like six feet.
And I know you're not supposedto pray in the public schools,
but I'm praying, dear God,please help him get one basket.
Second possession, he gets amuch shorter shot.
This time it hits the backboard,it hits the rib, it falls off.
(15:53):
I'm thinking, all right, God'sstarting to listen.
We're getting closer.
Then the third possession, hehas a three pointer from the
right wing.
He lets it go.
Magic.
The place explodes.
I'm thinking to myself, God mustbe a basketball fan.
Not only has Jason scored, he'sgot a three pointer.
It can't get better than this,right?
Wrong.
For the next three minutes, JMac turns into his boyhood idol,
(16:16):
the late, great Kobe Bryant.
And I got to fast forward realquick because it's very part of
the story.
Five months after that game,Jason is in California at the
ESPY Awards.
For your listeners that don'tknow, that's kind of the
Grammys.
Or the Oscars for ESPN.
And he's up for the greatestsports moment of the year.
And Mike, I kid you not, one ofthe other finalists is his idol,
(16:41):
Kobe Bryant.
Kobe's up for the same award.
He had scored 81 points in anNBA game.
Jason meets his idol and thenbeats him out for the ESPY.
Mike Goldman (16:49):
That's amazing.
Jim Johnson (16:50):
Well, how does he do that?
Well, after making that firstbasket, he comes down, he makes
another three.
Then he makes a shot where it'sactually his foot is on the
line.
Then he makes a couple, hemisses a couple, the place was
going crazy.
And the two things I'll neverforget with a minute to go.
I'm sitting on the bench, tearsstill rolling down my face.
I can't believe what I'm seeing.
I get a tap on my shoulder.
I look behind me.
(17:11):
It's Jason's mother and she'sbawling her eyes out.
And she whispers in my ear,coach, this is the best gift you
could ever give my son.
What would you have done if youheard that?
I cried harder.
Then, how the game ends is likeout of a Hollywood ending.
With about 10 seconds to go, ouropponents spend support.
And I want to give kudos totheir players and their coach.
(17:33):
They were really good sportsthat night.
They score a basket and ourplayer takes the ball out of
bounds.
Instead of throwing it to ourpoint guard, he throws to J Mac.
And so I seen J Mac dribblingdown and the clocks ticking down
seven, six.
I thought they were just goingto let them go in and make a
short shot layup.
Oh no.
He pulls up like a foot behindthe three point line, almost an
(17:54):
NBA three.
I'm thinking Jason, don't youfor there.
You're going to ruin thismoment.
He launches this rainbow swish.
I look over, our student bodyruns on the floor, our players
run on the floor.
I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I'mliving the movie Rudy, but this
is really true.
And then they put Jason up onhis shoulders and he's got the
game ball over his head.
(18:15):
At this point, I have no ideahow many points he scored.
And our public address announcercomes on and says the leading
score for the Trojans tonight, JMac.
With 20 points, and of course,by math brain, I'm thinking he
played the whole game.
He just scored 160 points.
That's pretty good.
And I'll just say, there's somany lessons about share one
quick, and then we can move onis that, you know, it was so
(18:38):
cool because I mentioned that wehad a lot of adversity where it
split the team for a while.
Was that I had never asked thefour players on the floor to
pass Jason the ball.
Yet in those last four minutesout of their own hearts, they
passed the ball to him eachtime.
And to me.
That's what teamwork is when youshine the light on someone on
your team and they did that tothe best.
Mike Goldman (19:00):
That is such a beautiful story.
I want, how come the moviehasn't been made yet?
Jim Johnson (19:05):
Well, I'm going to share, I don't, can I speak too
much?
The movie Fizzled is a longstory that I can't really share
a lot, but, I can say that, Ihave a connection, with another,
movie production company.
And so we might be able to getthis going.
I'll keep you posted as we goforward.
Mike Goldman (19:24):
Well, I hope so.
And, again, before we get intobusiness and to me, if we ended
just on that story, this whole,this whole episode would be
worth it, but, what's going onwith J Mac today?
Jim Johnson (19:35):
So J Mac actually, he was, as I mentioned, he was
very small, 5'9 115 pounds, Ithink, senior year.
The funny thing is, is I thoughthe might grow because his dad is
6'6 but his mom's 5'2 So, well,he did.
He grew 5 inches after highschool, and he's now 6'2 he's
about 175 pounds.
(19:57):
And he was also a runner in highschool, but because he was
physically not very strong, hewas just an okay runner.
Well, he got back in.
So after being on a program, hegraduated from high school.
He didn't, he went right to workat a local grocery store, but
after a couple of years, he cameback and he said, coach, I
really missed the program.
Can I go back and volunteer?
And he volunteered for my lastnine years.
(20:18):
And the crazy thing is, Mike, wewon four more championships
together.
So for a small fee, I will runthem out to you.
He's been my good luck charm anda little side story.
You talk about how he just keepsinspiring me while we're
coaching together.
He comes in the office one dayand he says, coach.
I thank you so much for lettingme be part of the coaching
(20:38):
staff.
I said, Jason is great to haveyou.
He says, but I really miss beingcompetitive myself.
I'm going to get back intorunning.
I said, really, what are yougoing to do?
He says, I'm going to run theRochester marathon.
So I always talk to our playersabout goals.
And Jason and I always talkedabout goals.
And so I said Jason, what's yourgoal?
He says, coach, I'm going toqualify for the Boston marathon.
Now, I don't know how many ofyour listeners.
(21:00):
know anything about running.
I'm not sure how much you havebackground, but I was a runner,
although I've never run amarathon, but I'm pretty,
familiar with times in that.
I said, so what's the qualifyingtime for your age, Jason?
He says three hours and fiveminutes.
Well, I nearly fell off my chaircause that's a fast marathon.
So, I said, are you sure?
(21:20):
He says, yep.
I'm working with our crosscountry coach.
I'm going to really upgrade mytraining.
Mike, he runs the firstRochester Marathon in three
hours, one minute and 46seconds.
He qualifies for the Boston.
Crazy thing is a month later hedecides, I'm not ready, I got to
prove myself.
And the next year when he couldhave gone, he is actually the
(21:41):
year of the bombing that youguys might remember.
So he runs the RochesterMarathon again.
So he's got to qualify again.
This time he runs it in threeminutes and 52 seconds.
So he qualifies.
So he comes into the office.
He's all pumped up.
I said, so J Mac, what's yourgoal for the Boston Marathon?
He goes, coach, I'm going tobreak three hours.
I said, J Mac, Boston's atougher course.
(22:02):
It's got a higher heartbreakhill.
He goes, I know I've upgraded mytraining.
My first boston Marathon, twohours, 58 minutes and 46
seconds.
The kid never ceases to amazeme.
Mike Goldman (22:14):
He's a superhero.
Jim Johnson (22:16):
Yes, he is.
Mike Goldman (22:18):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
So that incredible story, let'skind of transition.
I know you do a lot of speakingand a lot of work with
businesses.
What are some of the key lessonsthat you learned from basketball
coaching the basketball teamthat we can use over on the
(22:39):
business side?
Jim Johnson (22:41):
Well, like you, Mike, I became a very avid
reader.
And so I obviously read, youknow, a lot of books on coaching
and that kind of thing, but Ialso read a ton of business
books.
And so I developed and it reallyhelped me immensely because the
first half of my career, Ididn't do very well.
And the second half of my careerI did extremely well.
(23:02):
And so I learned a lot.
And what I did, one of thepresentations I talk about is
how to be a more effectiveleader and I talk about seven
keys.
And the first key I talk aboutis what we call clarifying your
vision.
And really we talk aboutdeveloping your own personal
mission, because if you don'thave clarity of how to lead
(23:24):
yourself, it's hard to leadothers.
And then giving clarity of whatyour own team or business or
organization mission statementis.
And so when I took over, Iactually, and the other good
little sidelight is that Ibecame a head coach at a local
high school about 20 minutesfrom where I grew up at 25 years
old, which is pretty young.
(23:45):
And I did such a great job,Mike, that I led that team to 17
consecutive losses.
And then I ended up leaving thatjob because I didn't like what
the administration had to say tome.
Of course, what they said to mewas, you're fired.
Mike Goldman (24:00):
So they fired you and then you said, that's it.
I'm deciding to leave.
I like it.
Jim Johnson (24:04):
Yeah, yeah.
So, I decided to leave becauseof their directions.
But after that I got a nicething because I got mentored by
a year, and the crazy thing is Igot mentored by a junior college
coach.
I was his assistant, and hisname was Bill Van Gundy, and for
your listeners, if they followbasketball, they've probably
heard of his two sons.
Jeff and Stan have both beenhead coaches in the NBA, and the
(24:26):
interesting thing back then,they were not, you know, they
were my age and younger.
Coach Van Gundy took me underhis wing and I really started to
get clarity.
So going to that point one is Istarted to really, I read Dr.
Covey's book, seven habits andyou know, one of the things he
talked a lot about was gettingclarity about your personal
mission.
(24:46):
And that's something I talked toleaders about, you know, why you
put it on this earth, what areyour most important core values
and you live.
And so I share my personalmission statement is to be an
outstanding role model thatmakes a positive difference in
the world by helping others maketheir dreams come true.
And why that helped me immenselyand why I encourage your
(25:07):
listeners to get clarity on thatis because you're not going to
be perfect.
No one is okay.
Other than Jesus.
So, but what we're going tofigure out is.
Is every time you slip away, ifyou have clarity of your
mission, you can come back toand say, Hey, for my case, you
know, was I a good role model?
No, I wasn't.
I got to make that change.
(25:27):
Was I being someone that wasserving and helping others make
their dreams come true?
I didn't do a very good job withthat.
So it gave me a real foundationand that helped me immensely and
be a better coach because I ledmyself better, which led to
that.
And then.
I know in a lot of businesses,they have a mission statement.
But one of the things, that welearned, I learned from a guy
(25:50):
that I know you've read a lot ofhis books as well, Patrick
Lencioni.
He calls it the CRO, the ChiefReminding Officer.
And that's what I started to dovery good is that I wanted to
develop our own team mission.
Because when you go into abusiness, usually they have a
mission, but they under, theydon't live it.
Okay, I'm sure you work a lot ofbusinesses, you know, they have
(26:11):
a mission statement up, but youask the people on the leadership
team and most of them don't evenknow what it is.
Okay.
So if you don't know what it is,it's hard to live it.
So as a CRO, you've got to beliving it and sharing it
consistently.
And for example, like when Itook over my first program that
we able to get things going, itwas a small school.
(26:32):
And when I met with all theplayers, I heard about what
should our mission be?
Well, they had only won twogames a year before.
So their mission to me wascoach, we want to win more
games.
I said, but like same thing inbusiness, you know, you got to
make a profit to live.
But what I found in all my studyof businesses, you know,
athletic teams, if your missionis not bigger than just winning
(26:54):
games or making a profit, youusually don't last.
So what we developed in our casewas we wanted to develop winners
on and off the court.
And as a leader, goodness, ChiefReminding Officer, is I've got
to consistently live that andshare.
And define to them.
What does it mean to win on thecourt?
What does it mean to win off thecourt?
(27:14):
And as a leader, you got to leadby example.
And you also got to be doingconsistently sharing the
message.
And, you know, a lot of thingsI've heard this a lot.
I think there's a lot of truth.
Another thing, leaders, I thinkthat are effective is they're
the chief storytellers.
They have great stories to getpeople to buy into the mission.
Mike Goldman (27:33):
And very often what I see on the business side
is vision, mission, whateverwords you want to put around it.
They're not terribly inspiring.
And very often their words thatwere put together seemingly by a
legal staff or, you know, theirwords that were put together,
you know, and it's shareholdervalue and blah, blah, blah.
(27:55):
And most of the people in theorganization, I don't give a rip
about that stuff.
But something like, you know,we're building, you know,
winners on and off the court.
I mean, businesses could do thesame thing, make it something
that actually matters to peopleand is inspiring to people, not
just we're going to make theshareholders a few extra
pennies.
Jim Johnson (28:15):
Right.
It's a great point.
Well said.
Mike Goldman (28:18):
So, all right.
So number one, you said therewere seven.
Number one was vision.
Jim Johnson (28:21):
So number two is building trust and in building
trust, you know, when I do apresentation on leadership or
like I'm doing one on teamculture, I'll ask them, is trust
important?
And Mike, you probably canguess, and your listeners can
guess that everybody raisestheir hand, you know.
Mike Goldman (28:36):
Of course.
Jim Johnson (28:37):
Trust is okay.
But then I kind of shock them.
And I challenged them.
I said, well, how many of youare intentional about building a
trust plan?
And I kind of like, they kind oflook at me a little.
What do you mean?
I said, well, if you're going tobuild trust, you got to have a
plan on how you're going toimplement that.
So I share our three pointbecause as I mentioned, my first
(29:01):
head coaching job, it was adisaster.
But then I took over three otherprograms that were all losing.
We're able to turn around andthat's what we really try to
focus.
And when I talk to my staff.
I said, these are the threethings we're going to focus in
on building trust one, you haveto align your words and actions.
You have to be consistent.
If we say we're going topractice at six o'clock in the
(29:21):
morning.
I got to be there before six.
I got to be enthusiastic, youknow, whatever you stand for.
That's got to be consistent.
And you know what hurts leadersis when they say one thing.
And do something else.
It cracks the trust code.
Number two is I think you got tobuild your relationships and
(29:42):
tell each other the truth.
Now, I think there is onecaveat.
I think there are times whereyou can call someone out in
front of everybody because they,you know, they can handle it.
And it's a great example.
But also as a leader, there aretimes where you shouldn't do
that.
That should be a one on onemeeting and sharing, you know,
what you like or dislike and,you know, how we can correct
(30:03):
that.
And then the third thing,because I took over four
programs about losing, and threeof them we did well.
Is I think, you know, this isold Ken Blanchard, the one
minute manager, but you got tofocus on catching people doing
right.
And by doing that, you have tobe specific with your price.
Let me illustrate.
If I say to you, nice job, Mike.
(30:24):
You know, you'll probably get asmile and you'll say, but then
it was like, okay, what did I doto have a nice job?
But if I said, Mike, that wasawesome.
How you dove on the floor forthat loose ball.
That's what championship playersdo on championship teams.
What do you think I've done now?
They, have a lot of clarity.
We're trying to build achampionship program here and
(30:45):
dive in another four for looseball is something you're going
to be priced for.
So, you know, those are thethings that is you come in a
leader and those were ourfoundation pieces.
But I think you can't do enoughwith, with really focusing on
how building trust.
And the last thing I'll sayabout trust is remember this.
And I think everybody's agreedwith this, that it usually takes
(31:06):
time to build trust.
But you can destroy it with onereally bad decision and choice.
And I'll give you a quickillustration.
One of the things I did, becauseliving my mission, my last 23
years, I shared with all ourplayers and parents at our
players parents meeting, afterall our teams were chosen, that
I would not drink alcohol duringthe season.
(31:27):
Now that was a choice I made, Ididn't have to do that.
Now, if I say that, and twoweeks later in the season, I get
pulled over for DWI, what do youthink that would have done to
that trust account?
Mike Goldman (31:39):
Yeah, gone.
Jim Johnson (31:40):
Gone.
And probably never get it backwith that team if, you know,
probably would have taken years.
Now fortunately, I didn't makethat choice.
But think about all the timesyou see leaders make those types
of bad choices.
You know, in my world, BobHuggins just lost his job
because of, you know, a drinkingand driving incident was a major
factor in that.
So, I think that that'ssomething as you're building
(32:03):
trust, you've got to be liningthose words and actions
consistently.
Mike Goldman (32:09):
So number one is vision.
Number two is trust.
number three?
Jim Johnson (32:13):
Third is called creating the edge and creating
the edge.
I know, Mike, you're an veryavid reader and so am I.
And I believe as a leader, youhave to be consistently finding
ways to get better yourself soyou can improve your team.
And to do that, a coupleexamples, like one of the things
(32:36):
there are so many things you doto create it, but a couple of
the would be one is I taught ourplayers how to goal set.
And so we would come over to myhouse.
We did a team goal setting withthe famous think it ink it.
I used to give my team a quoteevery day.
And one of my goal quotes is youknow, that when you want
something, another one I alwaystalk about is you can't hit a
(32:58):
target you don't have, so that'swhy we want clarity, and I would
teach them about, you know, andI would get their input about
what our team goals, we put themin writing, and then I believe
this is a huge key as a leader.
You got to help your people settheir individual goals, but you
got to have those one on onemeetings so that you know what
(33:18):
their individual goals and howthey can fit their role to help
meet the team goals.
Because if you have one personjust work on the side just on
individual goals in a businessor a team sport, you're going to
run into trouble.
And so that's where you as aleader, you got to make sure
that you're helping them in thatalignment.
And another thing.
I just did a talk to a businessabout team culture is I think
(33:41):
you've got a another thing increating an edge is consistently
recognize your people, whichgoes back to a little bit of
what we talked about, but I givethem some ideas like one is
getting clarity, becauserelationships are so important
on do you know your people onyour team, their important
dates?
Like, illustration, got thisfrom a business book.
(34:03):
Every single player in ourprogram, I had five teams under
my direction, two middle school,three high school, received a
birthday card personally signedby me.
Not just because I felt I neededto know that a little bit about
each person and I would get aseventh grader to come down in
our visit office and say, coach,thanks so much for the birthday
cards.
(34:23):
You think he was attracted toour program.
So I think, you know, recognizeit with adults.
I think it's even more importantto get, you know, not only
birthdays, but anniversaries orif they have children,
children's birthdays, you know,the more that you can get to
know and build thatrelationship, I think is really
powerful.
Another idea that I juststarted, the last year or two,
(34:44):
is I send out personal videos topeople.
Because we all know now how bigsocial media and videos are big,
right?
But when's the last time youreceived a video personalized
from somebody?
You know, so that's a little waythat you can say, I care about
you and you know, I've done thatwith people that are friends of
(35:07):
mine.
There's their birthdays.
I've done it with just a checkin.
Hey, Mike, how are things going?
I haven't talked to you in awhile.
Just want to check in.
Let's let's find a day on thecalendar to catch up.
Or like I saw, you know, talkabout Facebook or one of my
friends in another state.
I saw he went in for surgery.
So I sent him a video next day.
Hey Darren, I hope your surgerywent well.
(35:29):
I'm thinking about you keepingmy prayers, you know, that's
pretty powerful stuff.
You know.
Mike Goldman (35:33):
Love it, but back to the goal setting.
I heard something reallyinteresting.
It's probably four or five yearsago.
Jim Johnson (35:39):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (35:40):
But I grew up in New York I was a big Knick fan
you talk about Jeff Van Gundy.
Jim Johnson (35:44):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (35:44):
When you grow up in New York City you're not as
much as of a college ball fanbecause you got all the
professional teams right herebut my daughter went to the
University of Maryland.
Jim Johnson (35:55):
Okay.
Mike Goldman (35:55):
Which became a big 10 school.
So of a sudden I became a big, abig Terps fan, a big Maryland
Terrapins fans.
Jim Johnson (36:02):
Right.
Right.
Mike Goldman (36:02):
And they're pretty good in basketball.
Jim Johnson (36:04):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (36:04):
And, I read a story about them a few years ago
where the coach did something Ithought was amazing, where he
didn't just have each of theplayers set individual goals for
themselves.
He did that.
But what he did was he then paireach of the players had kind of
a buddy.
And when you opened your locker,you saw in your locker was
(36:28):
whoever you were paired up withwas their goals.
So, their part of their role isnot only to reach their own
goals, but they had to knowtheir partner's goals and hold
them accountable for it, coachthem on it, help them achieve
it.
So that I thought was such aninteresting idea to the whole.
(36:48):
You know, we is more important,you know we instead me, to
really drive that home.
So I love that idea.
Jim Johnson (36:54):
That's a great idea.
I think, you know, one of thethings I've heard for years, I
just started about a year ago.
I have a young guy that, we doan accountability call every
week.
And I know with you, you know,in your coaching, you know,
you're working with CEOs andleaders that, you know, having
that accountability coach orpartner, I think is really
powerful.
So I love that idea.
(37:14):
I wish I had known that, Mike,years ago, because I would have
implemented that with my team.
So.
Mike Goldman (37:20):
Life's not over yet.
You may have another team.
Jim Johnson (37:22):
Yes, yeah, that's right.
Mike Goldman (37:23):
So, number one was vision.
Number two is trust.
Number three was creating theedge.
What's number four.
Jim Johnson (37:29):
Four is effective communication.
And with that, you know, the twothings is that I do encourage
leaders, because, we, mostpeople, including myself, was
scared to death.
Especially early in my career inpublic speaking, but I think as
a leader, I've seen really goodleaders that are good public
(37:51):
speakers, but I think it doesenhance because, you know, we
talked a little bit about beingthe chief storyteller.
So I think the ability to publicspeak is a really positive trait
that I and the great thing aboutthis as much as many people are
scared of it.
It's a learn skill.
And you can get better.
I remember my first couplepresentations, hey you know, I
(38:11):
thought it was good.
I was pretty bad.
But now I feel like I'm prettygood because I've got a lot of
training.
I've practiced a lot.
And but it's so true.
It's a skill.
But I say this with the factthat it is a powerful thing to
be a good public speaker, butthe best thing as far as
effective communication.
(38:32):
And this is something I think Iattribute to why I don't think I
was nearly as successful, earlyin my career is because I was
not a very good listener.
And I really started to takepride.
And I'll give you anillustration.
You know, you work a lot ofleadership teams.
Well, my leadership team was Ihad two, one would be my staff.
And my other was my varsity teamcaptains, and we had a
(38:54):
leadership meeting with my teamcaptains every week.
And when I started that, I wouldalways come in with an agenda,
it was organized, but it was allabout me.
Probably my last seven or eightyears, Mike, I came in, and yes,
I might have an agenda item thatwe got to cover, but it was
pretty much all about them.
I would come in, I'd say, heyguys, how's the team chemistry?
(39:17):
How can I coach you better thisweek, is there anybody hurting
on the team that we should givesome special extra attention to?
And I just start, you know, I'dalways come in with five or six
questions.
First one was always about teamchemistry, and they felt like
they had real ownership of theteam.
Because now they were sharing,they were the leaders, you know
and that was a really powerfulchange.
(39:39):
So I highly recommend, leadersthat you become a great
questioner, but when you askquestions, then be willing to be
open to receive the answers.
Mike Goldman (39:50):
I agree wholeheartedly that's such an
important skill that leadersdon't have.
In fact, one of the things Ikeep drilling home to the
leadership teams I work with isthat they need to be better
coaches.
That's the word I used.
Jim Johnson (40:04):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (40:04):
They need to be better coaches because I believe
a coach in business terms, acoach is someone who doesn't
necessarily know all theanswers, but they know the
questions to ask it's why I cancall myself a coach and work
with the marketing firm and thesoftware company and the
construction firm.
(40:24):
And how can I do that?
I'm not an expert on no, but I'mpretty good at knowing the right
questions to ask.
So I love that idea.
And I absolutely know that it'ssomething that is crazy lacking
in leaders today, especiallybecause here's, I think it's
lacking, not so much becauseit's hard to figure out the
(40:46):
right questions.
I don't know that is a skill,but I don't think the hard part.
The hard part is it is so mucheasier and quicker, or so they
think easier and quicker just togive the answers.
And we know, yeah, short termthat's quicker, long term, uh,
uh, so I love that.
Jim Johnson (41:08):
100% with it.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Mike Goldman (41:10):
All right, so we've got number one, vision,
number two, trust, number three,creating the edge, number four,
effective communication, what'snumber five?
Jim Johnson (41:19):
Five is one that I think, people take for granted
because it's so obvious, but Ithink in all my observation of
leaders, boy, there's a lot thataren't doing well and that's
leading by example.
And one of the things that weused to really talk to our
players all about this, one ofmy assistants coach shared this
and I thought it was so powerfuland I shared it all the time is
(41:41):
you are always on stage as aleader.
If you don't think people arewatching what you say and do,
you are wrong.
You are always on stage and whatyou do.
And I'll give you anillustration, Mike, as a story.
So I mentioned that we keptlosing in our sectional
tournament.
We ended up winning in the firsttime, Jason's magical year when
(42:05):
he had his magical game.
But you know what I did, I wasstudying and like, why do we
keep losing it?
And you know what I realized?
That I was not doing a good jobwith key number five during the
postseason in the regular seasonand the offseason.
I was someone that wasconsistent.
I was keep cool under pressure.
(42:25):
I can handle adversity.
In the postseason I just wantedso badly to win the championship
that I was a different personwhen we had adversity.
I handled very poorly.
Well, who do you think thataffected?
Our players, because they're,you know, a reflection of how I
handle adversity.
(42:46):
So I made a pact after thatunbelievable game and we had all
this media attention that I wasgoing to be a different coach
during the postseason.
And the big thing is I did is nomatter what happened in any of
those postseason games, I wasgoing to be the rock for them.
Well, we had a by.
We won our first game prettyeasily, so there was no test for
(43:07):
coach.
Semi finals, my big stumblingblock, six times taking teams
there.
We are up 10 at halftime.
We lose the entire lead.
We're losing in the fourthquarter.
The old coach would have lostit, and we probably lost that
game.
The coach that now realized howimportant leading by example is.
(43:28):
I kept my cool.
I stayed positive with them.
Our players responded.
And we won the game.
We went to the section fivechampionship in the finals.
Mike, my first championshipgame, we have all this media
attention.
We have a sold out arena of 10,000 people.
We're down 13 to three afterfour minutes.
(43:48):
And I'm like the old coachwould've lost it.
The coach that knows howimportant leading by example.
I stayed cool.
We ended up railing and we wonthe game in the last 10 seconds
of the game.
So, you know, and that just agreat lesson.
And because of the understandingthat it, you know, my first 19
years, we never made the finals.
(44:09):
In my last 11 years, we made thefinals eight times and won six.
And that's why I just, I reallywant to emphasize as simple as
the statement is, you got to bea model for your people.
Mike Goldman (44:20):
And I think where that comes through for leaders,
and I'm going to talkspecifically to the CEOs, to the
owners is it's very easy.
I mean, absolutely grace underpressure being a rock under
pressure.
Yes, that's part of it.
The other part of it that I seeis when we talk about company
(44:44):
culture and when we talk aboutnon negotiable core values,
these non negotiable behaviorsfor an organization.
I talk to CEOs who want todelegate that to their head of
HR and they're like, yeah, Iknow this culture stuff's
important, but I've got to go.
(45:04):
This is who I am.
And what I tell them is look.
You can't, delegate culture toanyone if you are not a model of
your core values.
If you're not living it everyday, then throw away the posters
or the plaques or whateveryou're putting your vision,
mission, all that stuff, throwit away.
(45:26):
You have to be the model, andwhen those leaders are not the
model and they try to delegateit to someone else, the culture
becomes a joke, and that'sreally dangerous.
So, I love that.
What's number six?
Jim Johnson (45:40):
Number six is what I call leaving a profit.
And simply that is developingyour leadership philosophy.
And what I used to share withour players, our philosophy,
leaving a profit simply meansthat everything that we touch,
we're going to turn to gold, notgarbage.
In other words, everything wetouch, we're going to make
better, not worse.
(46:00):
It's a simple philosophy.
Again, leading by example,though, I'll give you a quick
illustration.
Well, we would travel to ouropponent's school to play in a
way game.
We would use one of theopponent's locker rooms and we'd
walk in and I usually would walkin, you know, with the players
and if I saw a piece of trash onthe floor, what do you think I
(46:22):
did?
Mike Goldman (46:23):
Pick it up.
Jim Johnson (46:23):
I picked it up and threw it out.
Now, I didn't put it there, butwhat was I teaching my guys?
That everything we touch, we'regoing to make better, not worse.
And I think as a leader, you gotto be really cognizant again by
leading by example, but thelittle things that you do, you
said it so well, are you livingyour core values every day?
(46:46):
You know, if respect is one ofour core values, for example,
and yet we go to a restauranttogether and I call the waiter a
jerk in front of everybody andget into a big argument am I
living the core values?
Probably not.
And so I think that's reallyimportant is you develop that
philosophy is this somethingyou're going to live and teach
(47:07):
to your people each day.
Mike Goldman (47:09):
You talked earlier about, Pat Lencioni, an author
that we both, you know, likereading.
And if you haven't read any ofhis stuff, read it.
It's easy.
You could read it on a flight.
They're stories.
And, he was talking, and Iforget which book it was, or it
may have even been in a keynoteI saw him do.
And if you've never seen himspeak live, he's not only really
smart, he could be a standupcomic.
(47:30):
He's great.
But he was talking about theimportance of getting people out
of the normal environment whenyou're interviewing them for a
job and back to leaving a profitand respect what you're saying
is, he gave an example of goingout to dinner with the person he
(47:52):
was interviewing and he wouldpurposely tell the waiter, he'd
like call them before, tell thewaiter to screw up the guy's
order.
Jim Johnson (48:01):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (48:03):
To see how the person would react.
Would they be gracious andhandle it well, or would they
show total disrespect for theserver?
Which would tell you somethingabout who that person really is,
regardless of what they said onan interview.
Jim Johnson (48:18):
Exactly.
That's...
Mike Goldman (48:19):
So I love that.
Jim Johnson (48:20):
Very well said.
Great illustration for sure.
Mike Goldman (48:23):
All right.
And what's the final one?
What's number 7?
Jim Johnson (48:26):
Final one is servant leadership, which is
something that, you know, wehear a lot about but you know,
with all my study and researchis I believe servant leadership
and first of all, defining itfor me is that the traditional
leadership pyramid was theleaders on top and all the
everybody works for the leaders.
In the servant leadership modelyou're flipping the pyramid.
(48:47):
And now the leaders has aservice mindset that they are
serving the people that theyworked with.
And the other piece that I thinkis so essential and servant
leadership is the ability toteach your people how they can
lead themselves and lead others.
And I think the greatest thingyou could say is a gift.
(49:08):
And it's something certainly Iwould not have been thinking
about in my first half of mycareer is, how can I develop
leaders that are better than me?
Cause that's a hard thing toswallow, right?
But when you do that and youknow, I'm proud to say like,
I've been out of coaching nowfor seven years and my JV coach,
he was with me for 15 years.
He took over and, he's made thefinals four times in seven
(49:32):
years.
Remember Mike, I mentioned Ididn't make a final my first 19
years and he has not won one, soI feel bad.
In fact, I had lunch with himtoday and I said, but Mike, it
took me 19 years to get to theone final.
You've been there four times inseven years, but I'm really
proud of the fact that, youknow, we spent a lot of time
together and he's become thisreally effective leader.
(49:53):
It's really cool to see.
Mike Goldman (49:55):
Love it.
He needs to get J Mac back onthe
Jim Johnson (49:57):
Yes, a gameplay exactly.
Exactly.
Mike Goldman (49:58):
Back on the bench.
Jim Johnson (49:59):
It might be the missing key for sure.
Mike Goldman (50:02):
Well, coach, this was great.
Super inspiring story.
You're inspiring.
J Mac's inspiring.
So I love it.
Where should people go?
And this will all be in the shownotes, but where should people
go if they want to buy yourbook, find out more about you,
get you to come speak to theirorganization, where would they
find you?
Yeah.
So I'll just say,coachjimjohnson.com that way.
(50:23):
I wouldn't forget it.
That's my website and we do havea free monthly newsletter.
We do a free weekly blog thatyou can sign up.
I also do a video series onYouTube And Mike, we'll get you
on here one of these days.
We have a podcast called theLimitless Leadership Lounge
where our focus is to help youngand emerging leaders.
And we just completed our secondyear.
So, check us out on that aswell.
(50:44):
I think you'll enjoy that.
Love it.
I accept.
I'd love, let's definitely talkabout it.
Well, as I always say, if youwant a great company, you need a
great leadership team and coach,thanks so much for getting us
there today.
I appreciate it.
Jim Johnson (51:01):
My pleasure.
It was great to be with you,Mike.
Mike Goldman (51:04):
Thanks.
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