April 15, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode, I sit down with Mark Peters, CEO of Butterball Farms, and author of The Source and The Retention Trap. Mark shares his powerful leadership journey, starting as a factory worker at 12 to building a thriving business grounded in trust, empathy, and worker wellbeing. We dive deep into his creation of The Source, a game-changing nonprofit helping employees overcome life challenges, and how it delivers ROI while transforming lives. Plus, Mark challenges conventional retention strategies and offers bold advice for investing in people and building stronger leadership teams.
Learn more about The Source at:
https://www.grsource.org/
https://i-lead.com/
https://i-3leadership.com/
https://linkedin.com/in/markpetersbutterball
Thanks for listening! Connect with us at mike-goldman.com/blog and on Instagram@mikegoldmancoach and on YouTube @Mikegoldmancoach
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark Peters (00:02):
And each one of us is part of a larger talent
system.
It's understanding where we arein that system and that people
are gonna move, people are gonnacome to workforce and they're
gonna leave.
They're gonna try to go find abetter job.
So instead of being resistant tothat, how can we embrace that?
(00:22):
How can we be this great placefor people to work and learn
they're on their talent journey?
cause we're still a place towork while they're on their
talent journey.
Like, that's not gonna change.
So why don't we embrace the factthat they're on their talent
journey and help them get to thebest possible spot they can be.
(00:42):
And yes, they're gonna leave.
this is a reality.
Mike Goldman (00:52):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the
(01:12):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
Mark Peters is the CEO ofButterball Farms, a leading
producer of culinary butter andmargarine.
It was recognized as one of thebest and brightest companies to
(01:35):
work for from 2018 to 2024.
He began his career as a factoryworker at 12 and later took over
the family business at 30 with afocus on not only financial
success, but worker wellbeing.
And we're gonna talk a lot aboutthat today.
In 2003, he co-founded TheSource, a nonprofit, helping
(01:56):
workers overcome personalchallenges.
He authored two books, theSource, and Coming in June, the
Retention Trap.
So depending on when you'relistening to this, it's either
out or about to come out.
Mark is a sought after speakerlives in Grand Rapids with his
daughter and dog.
and I can't wait to Mark,discuss your journey, and share
(02:16):
kind of a, you know, a movement,I'll call it, that you started
that, you know, went well beyondyour company.
So, mark, welcome to the show.
Mark Peters (02:26):
Thanks, Mike.
I'm super happy to be heretoday.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation.
Mike Goldman (02:30):
Yeah, and light.
This seems to be an ongoingtheme that many of my guests
somehow, I either met throughVistage,
Mark Peters (02:37):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (02:37):
which if you don't know and you should, is a kind
of CEO peer group mastermindgroup.
If you don't know'em, look'emup.
So, a lot of my guests areeither folks I met because there
were in a Vistage group I talkedto, or there are other Vistage
certified speakers.
So, speakers.
So there, there's a theme.
but anyway, Mark, so the.
First question I always ask thatI want to ask you, is in all of
(02:58):
your experience, what do youbelieve is the number one
characteristic of a greatleadership team?
Mark Peters (03:07):
You know what, Mike, I can sum that up in one
word.
It's called trust and I.
I don't mean that lightly.
I've just gone through about atwo and a half year experience,
which kind of led me through aturnaround situation where we
ended up with a high degree ofmistrust on our executive team
and it filtered down throughoutthe whole organization.
(03:31):
and one of the things that Ilearned through that process is
that as the CEO.
I tolerated, an undercurrent ofmistrust far longer than I
should have.
and it turned into some reallytoxic behavior.
(03:52):
Um, and I think that, you know,that's when you and I really
connected was.
your leadership assessment thattalks about toxic teams.
And I tell you, I sat in thatmeeting and I ranked my
executive team and every singleone of'em came up toxic.
That was a bad day for me.
Mike Goldman (04:13):
You.
You are welcome.
Mark Peters (04:14):
the underlying theme when I go back, was really
around, is around trust.
And, you know, one of ourguiding principles is to
communicate openly.
And honestly to promoteeffective teamwork.
And we were not, we were notcommunicating honestly with each
other.
and that requires some toughconversations.
(04:35):
You know, I mean, not everythingis sunshine and roses at the top
of a company.
You gotta make decisions aboutassigning capital.
You've gotta make decisionsabout customers and pricing it
doesn't always make everydepartment super happy.
but you've gotta be able to havethose conversations and you've
gotta be able to do it in a waythat maintains, trust.
(04:59):
So I would double down on thatstatement.
Mike Goldman (05:02):
Yeah.
And I love what you said it wasa problem because you tolerated
it and Yeah, and what I loveabout.
Hearing that and kudos to youfor thinking of it that way, is
there are a lot of leaders that,that I meet with that, that,
that point the fingerexternally.
(05:23):
You know, why aren't thesepeople more trustworthy?
Why isn't there more trust?
And saying you tolerate it meansyou understand that if there's a
lack of trust, it's stemmingfrom you.
It's stemming from yourbehavior, whether you are not
trusting enough to communicatehonestly and or your accepting
it in your organization.
So I love that you're, you tookownership for it.
Mark Peters (05:46):
Yeah.
So that was, that's a biglearning.
It's a big learning for me.
Mike Goldman (05:53):
Tell me a little bit about, before we, I
definitely wanna dive into thesource, which is the nonprofit
that you founded and the book,and then we'll talk about your
new book and all things aroundthat.
but I wanna start off a littlebit with your story.
So tell, first, tell me a littlebit about Butterball Farms.
And then I want to go into kindof your story from a kid growing
(06:14):
up in the business.
But first, tell me a little bitabout the business.
Mark Peters (06:17):
I always hate those introductions because it sounds
like, you know, you're trying topack a whole lifetime of history
into like two sentences.
You know, my business is, it's,we're second generation family
business.
we make, history is makingbutter with designs on it.
my, my father.
Said, you know, embossed butteris what our company did.
So historically we did any bigbranded hotel that you can think
(06:43):
of from, say 20 years ago or 30years ago, we probably did their
logos.
Hyatt, Sheridan, Weston, RitzCarlton, Wyndham, we, lots of
'em, but you know, they wereall, they all ran their own
restaurants in those days.
They ran their own food andbeverage and catering.
And so those were sort of ourbig customers around the
(07:04):
country, when I took the, when Itook the business over.
So I started working for'em whenI was 12, and he told me there
was no more summers at the lakefor me and time to go to work.
and I talk a little bit about itin my book, the Source, but he
got all of his, the supervisorsaround the, his desk and he
introduced me as his son and hesaid, now if he does anything
(07:26):
wrong, just fire him.
Don't come talk to me.
Just fire him.
Mike Goldman (07:30):
I love it.
Mark Peters (07:31):
my dad just didn't bluff, right?
So I'm this impressional12-year-old kid, and you know, I
took him at his word, so.
I learned early on to make a lotof friends.
I, you know, I got to know thepeople that, that I was working
with and really this is, it'skind of interesting because
people say when they read thesource and some of the themes
(07:53):
that are in the book, it's likewhere, you know, growing up the
way you grew up, how did you endup here and.
You know, I mean, I can point tosome of my Christian values and
you know, some of those things,but I really think it was the
lived experience that startedwhen I was 12 with the people in
the plant and really having thisneed to get to know the people I
(08:15):
was working with to protect myown job.
So somewhat, you know, self.
Whatever, whatever the word I'mlooking for is.
Mike Goldman (08:24):
Self-preservation.
Mark Peters (08:26):
Self preservation and, and, but what I, you know,
I learned that the people thatwere working in our family
business very different livesthat than I lived.
I mean, they were concernedabout paycheck to paycheck.
They were concerned about buyinggroceries.
They were concerned about theirkids off the street.
They were concerned about.
(08:47):
Buying shoes about whether theycould repair their car or not,
or, you know, I mean, thingsthat never, ever entered my
field of thought as a kid or ayoung adult.
so I think that, you know, 12,13, 14, 15, 16, those years
where I was in the plant workingand really getting to know the
(09:08):
people, that worked for us.
And then seeing how my dadtreated them, was really the
genesis for a lot of the thoughtprocess that went into the book,
the source in particular, andfounding of the source.
So I.
Mike Goldman (09:25):
And what is that?
When you said the way your dadtreated them, was it a good
example or a bad example?
Mark Peters (09:31):
sorry, I, that's a great question.
I sort of thought that, Iimplied it was a bad example,
but,
Mike Goldman (09:37):
That's what I thought I wanted to make, be
real clear.
Mark Peters (09:40):
so it like to be more specific, we didn't have
health insurance.
No.
401k.
I mean, it was like.
This is how much I pay you anhour and this is what I expect
you to do.
And that's the beginning and theend of the work contract, you
know, and, he legitimatelytreated most of the people that
came to work for us, like adifferent class of citizen.
(10:03):
and again, I don't, you know,my, my religious upbringing.
Would have suggested thateverybody was created in God's
image.
So everybody requires a certainlevel of dignity.
And I really struggled with thedifference between, you know, my
dad at home, my dad at church,and my dad at work.
(10:27):
And my dad at work was a verydifferent, it was a very, it was
acted out very differently andit didn't make any sense to me
and that, and I got to meet whowere just really amazing
individuals and working reallyhard for their family and
committed to their family and,but they were not treated like
that in our workplace.
Mike Goldman (10:50):
And what do you believe?
So, so you grow up in thebusiness and you see that as an
example of, that's not the way Iwant to be.
and it shapes some beliefs thatyou have.
Tell me more about like, what doyou believe?
There are a lot of leaders whoare very good people and treat
their people okay.
Mark Peters (11:06):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (11:06):
their focus is very much profitability of the
business.
And of course, if you don'tfocus on profitability, you
don't have a business, so you'vegotta focus there.
But, I know you have some verystrong beliefs about the
responsibility a company has totheir people.
Mark Peters (11:22):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (11:23):
and I'd love to hear more about how you think
about that.
Mark Peters (11:26):
Yeah.
It's, you know what I, and I dothink lots of leaders have
different approaches and that'sfine.
I just am, I wanna try to thinkof the most succinct way to say
this.
I, I think that we have, I, soI'll just say, I, instead of
saying we or us as entrepreneursor anything like that, and
hopefully I can inspire someother people to think in a
(11:47):
similar way.
We have, I have this enterprisewhere come to work.
And spend 40 plus hours a weekunder my influence.
And when I say that it, it's theway they're treated and how we
show up as an employer, how Ishow up as an employer, and if
(12:08):
that work environment is toxicor.
demeaning or not honoring, notinterested in what makes
somebody successful.
Those people go home andworkplace experience affects the
way they act at home.
(12:28):
Now, if they're, most of ouremployees are 40 hours plus.
I mean, we're full, we're afull-time employer up from the
top all the way down to theplant floor.
So people that are coming intomy house.
Are spending more time with methan they are with in any other
sector of their life.
So I can either choose to beintentional about that influence
(12:52):
or I can choose to not beintentional about it.
But not being intentional aboutit is a choice.
And so I have, ever since myfather passed away, worked very
hard to try to design aworkplace.
Where people who are coming into, to put food in boxes can
(13:15):
have the best possible workexperience from, their team, the
way they're treated, developmentopportunities, you know, simple
things like please and thank youkeeping the environment clean so
that they've got great space to,to be in.
I all sorts of other sorts of,you know, respect and interest,
(13:38):
kinds of things.
And that's really, what led meto start the source was I could
not provide, there's so manypeople in my workforce that had
complexities in their lives thatI couldn't help them with, and I
really wanted to do somethingmore.
(13:58):
Around helping people addressagain, we talked about some of
'em a little bit earlier, likewhether it's transportation or
housing or childcare or somebodyin their family has medical
issues they don't know how todeal with.
just, you know, we're not asocial agency.
you said earlier, we have to beprofitable.
We can't just, you know, payeverybody's bills for'em.
(14:19):
They've gotta set a wage rate.
We've gotta run a profitablebusiness.
But at the same point in my lifethat I'm thinking about these
things, I'm also serving on acouple of inner city nonprofit
boards, and I'm realizing that alot of these organizations, and
I would suspect a lot of yourlisteners do the same thing.
This is not an uncommon dynamicin my experience of business
(14:42):
leaders who also serve in anonprofit world, something that
they're passionate about.
But what I got really interestedin was.
That those organizations that Iserved on the board of were
great at telling their storiesto their donors and their
supporters.
They were far less effective atgetting their clients.
And then the next step of thatthinking was that those clients
(15:03):
work for me.
And then I'm like, well, how amI sharing these services out to
the people that work for me?
And that was the skeletonstructure of what became the
source.
The source became this conduitfor employees of the member
companies, to find resourcesthat would help them in almost
(15:28):
any situation with the goal ofstaying at work, you know, so
that none of those things intheir lives would create an
event.
that would take them out oftheir employment.
so, so, you know, I was sofocused on trying to change that
work experience for people thatI actually went out and got
(15:49):
businesses to help me buildsomething, to do this.
and it, you know, we've now,we've got almost 22 years of
data on the source and 28 membercompanies.
it's pretty amazing what it'sturned into.
Anyway, I'm kind of going in alldifferent
Mike Goldman (16:05):
No.
No, and I'm not stopping youbecause that's the heart of, I
think what's so different andwhat's so important of what.
The reason I was so interestedin having you on the show is
that we're not just talkingabout.
You know, how, what kind ofculture we should be creating in
our business and how you retainemployees and all those things
(16:27):
are important.
And both of us have writtenbooks on those things, so, so
super important by our books.
Absolutely.
but you went well beyond andsaid.
Wait a minute, there may be anew model here because as a, you
know, we're not running andyou're, you've got a very
successful business, but it'snot Google or Meta or Apple
(16:52):
where it's a company big enoughwhere if that's what you want to
offer up and make available toyour employees, you've got a
company that's a, you know, a$50billion, a hundred billion
dollar company.
You, you could build thosethings if you want.
You may or may not do it, butyou can.
but what you've done is said,wait a minute.
There's a whole bunch ofmid-market companies out there,
(17:13):
small companies out there thatjust don't have the money or the
time or the expertise or theresources to do these things,
and therefore, I'm gonna figureout a different way to get it
done.
Mark Peters (17:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
that's really what it was.
And here's what so.
Here's what's interesting to me,and I think one of the themes
in, in, in the Source and alsoin the retention trap is, you
know, as employers, asentrepreneurs, we're really good
at problem solving.
In fact, I would argue that'sour superpower for the world.
(17:53):
that's how you start a business.
you have a, either a better wayor a different way, or you've
got a, you know, a product, aservice, a, formula, something
that's different, better,creates a better outcome for
your customers.
And then you're successful atit.
You've gotta hire people.
What's interesting to me is wedon't tend to apply our problem
(18:16):
solving skills internally,especially around our people
nearly as well as we doexternally, especially around
our customers, right?
And so, many times through thehistory of building the source,
we talk to employers and askthem like, how many people do
(18:40):
you think in your organizationare getting some sort of
government assistance?
Now, the source can take theroster of social security
numbers and run it throughwhatever database they run it
through, and they can tell youwhat percentage of your
workforce is getting likeDepartment of Health and Human
Services, benefits.
It is shocking to me how manypeople have no clue as to the
(19:05):
number or percentage of theirworkforce that may be government
benefits on top of their wages.
And so I, I think that one of myhopes with the book, the source
is to get other leaders to.
Be a little bit more curiousabout the composition of their
(19:27):
workforce, and then get a littlebit more curious about how they
can positively impact that.
You know, we've had people sayabout the source that it's
almost more important to themthan their health insurance
benefits, because what thesource does is it's available at
exactly the moment of need.
(19:49):
You know, not that healthinsurance isn't, but.
you know, health insurance canbe complex and a lot of people
are generally pretty healthy.
They don't, they may go a wholeyear and not need it.
Um, but if they're looking atgetting evicted, that's a pretty
emergency need for their familythey need to have that solved
quickly and their landlord ain'thelping'em out, know, so, at the
(20:15):
moment that need occurs.
That the perceived value of thatbenefit for the employees is
outweighed significantly.
you know, that drives astickiness with us as a, as an
employer.
Mike Goldman (20:31):
Yeah.
that's what, you know, what's sointeresting about this and you
said this earlier, so I'm gonnacome back to it, is, you know,
you could look at this as avery.
You know, altruistic, you know,we need to treat people in, you
know, the right way.
and I like what you saidearlier, you know about when you
invite people into your house.
Mark Peters (20:48):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (20:49):
You didn't say business, you said house.
And that's a very differentfeeling and a very different
level of ownership and caringabout people outside the work.
It's all very, you know, it'sall wonderful.
And at the same time, the otherthing you said was it helps make
sure people don't have issuesthat take them away from work.
So there's an ROI there as wellwhere this is not just be being
(21:13):
a good guy, this is smartbusiness.
Mark Peters (21:15):
Well, and you know what, Mike, the great thing
about the source, theorganization is that we now have
22 years of data, and youmentioned ROI, but the average.
Over all of those 22 years, theaverage ROI to employers is just
over 200%.
And we measure that based on a,you know, it's hard to measure
(21:38):
something that doesn't happen.
So if the source has threeinteractions with an individual,
in a year, it's considered a jobsafe.
And that the history of thatagreement is.
That when the original employersthat came together, we all had a
three times in year out policyaround attendance.
(22:00):
So, and then we just, weassigned a value to the of
having to replace somebody.
And at the, I don't know whatthe number they used now, but
when we started it was like$3,200.
I can tell you for myorganization, the cost of one
turnover event now in an entrylevel position is about$8,500.
(22:22):
and that's if somebody leaves usin the first 90 days of
employment.
And you know, that's another oneof those problems I think that
most employers see thoseturnover calculators and they
legitimately don't believe thenumbers.
they're so big that we don'tbelieve'em.
but when you start solving forthat stuff, you.
(22:45):
You see things like safety getsbetter, defects go down.
People are problems, problemsolving, all the small issues
that come up in a business muchfaster and in alignment.
care about the work environment.
It's cleaner.
you know, you have less sort ofbehavioral incidences in your
facilities.
(23:06):
and we in our business havetracked all of that.
we can see that correlation.
so anyway, there's a, I believethat there's a definite return
and our cost to our business tothe source now is roughly 50
grand a year.
So I say you're getting likethis supercharged HR person for
a fraction of what it would costyou today.
Mike Goldman (23:27):
You, you've given some examples, but tell me a
little bit more of the types ofservices that are now made
available to your team members.
give us a few more examples ofwhat those are so people could
better picture what somethinglike the source could do.
Mark Peters (23:45):
Yeah, so, so in particular, you know, the source
again, is a conduit.
We didn't build an organizationto recreate resources that are
available in the community.
We basically went out, the ideawas to utilize services that
exist in the community.
So, this past year, housing wasthe biggest issue, and I think
(24:07):
that's probably true across thecountry.
housing's expensive.
rental housing is expensive.
difficult to get.
you know, the other thing thatplays into that is people's
credit score.
So if you have a bad creditscore, it's really hard to get a
place to live.
And so we, the source does offersome financial, financial
(24:29):
assistance and some financialtraining.
they actually have a.
Credit union that, that comesalong and offers those, offers,
those services.
They also have like a smalldollar loan program.
And again, I would suspect thatmany of the people that are
listening to this have donethis.
They'll give employees loans,they'll take it outta their
paycheck, you know, that'sgreat, but there's always a
(24:52):
risk.
so we've outsourced all of thatto the source.
they do all of that and they canget information from individuals
that you just can't get as a.
an employer, to really help holdpeople accountable for paying
them back and giving them theskills to manage, you know,
manage their budget.
food scarcity has actually beena big one, so, you know, helping
(25:15):
people with, and so you say,okay, food scarcity.
That means there's not a grocerystore that's got great food
nearby where somebody lives.
Yep, that's true.
more to that though.
There's the food that'savailable in some of our inner
city locations is, is not greatfrom a nutritional perspective.
So part of it is also teachingpeople about nutrition.
(25:36):
Like, like how does eatingcertain foods affect you?
Right?
So the source offers some ofthat nutritional counseling as
well, um, along with.
offering assistance in, ingetting people a full, you know,
making food, more accessible, totheir families.
Transportation I mean, thoseare, right now, those are the
(25:58):
top three.
transportation issues.
You got the same issues withcars today.
I mean, the, the interest rateshave driven loan rates up on
cars, so transportation even toget an inexpensive car.
you know, some of our employeeswould be looking at a 20 to 25%
interest rate, you know, and alot of people that are listening
(26:19):
to this are gonna cringe.
Like, who would ever pay 25% fora car loan?
Well, if that's the only wayyou're gonna get to work, you
may not have another option, butyou're not getting a great car,
which means pretty soon you'regonna have a car repair.
Right.
Pretty soon that car's not gonnarun to get you to work and then
you've got a different problem.
(26:40):
So again, the source actuallyhas developed some relationships
with.
You know, some auto dealers,other people in the, in people
that do car repairs andrestoration.
and also with the bankrelationships, we'll work
through some of those things tohelp make transportation
affordable.
They also will do things that,that help with like, you know,
(27:01):
getting people to the right buslines.
The other thing that the sourcecan do is communicate back to
the company.
So, so like, Hey, we're workingthrough an issue with this
employee.
If you guys could give'em alittle grace, we think we can
fix it in 30 days.
And you know, again, we'reprobably far more likely to.
(27:22):
To trust that the source hasdone some homework.
And they're like, look, we gotthis and we're gonna get this
person back to stability.
Then somebody who's gonna comein and they're not gonna tell
you what the root cause problemis in their life and they're,
and it's gonna sound like abunch of excuses, and then
you're probably gonna end up,they're probably gonna end up
losing their job for attendance.
(27:45):
Um, and so they've been able toshift that dynamic.
so that.
You know, the HR team will know,Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna
give this person a little bit ofgrace while the source works
through it.
and we should be good on theother side.
And when it, believe me, when anemployer does that for an
(28:05):
individual, especially at that,you know, more entry level group
of folks, they've never beentreated like that.
Talk about being treateddifferently than any employer
has ever treated them.
they're not, we will get peopleto say, okay, maybe it's time to
go look for another job, but Iwanna go to work for another
(28:26):
source company.
they don't wanna, they don'twanna give up that sort of
what's becomes a trusted andknowledgeable relationship in
their lives.
Mike Goldman (28:35):
Is this, is the source right now, is it just.
In Grand Rapids in that area, oris it expanded beyond that?
Mark Peters (28:42):
Yeah, well, that's a great question.
So the original source is WestMichigan.
Actually, they're in the processof expanding to the east side of
the state, with a partnershipwith Corwell Health, which is
just fantastic.
the of the source are all acrossthe country.
(29:03):
Like I'm on the board of anorganization called Work Life
Partnership, they do, a.
they have what we, so the peoplethat go out and help actually
interact with our employees arecalled resource navigators.
So, so the work life partnershipis, has got a resource navigator
model that's not quite as hightouch.
(29:23):
Some of it's remote, you know,some of it's remotely or you
know, over, over Zoom.
and they've.
operated in over 35 states.
But then there's other, like, Ihelped, I helped, the Fresno
area set up, what they call it,Heartland Compass.
there's another sourceadaptation out in Washington.
There's a couple out in the EastCoast.
(29:45):
So there's, there's a growingnumber of these adaptations
around the country, which is,it's fantastic to see.
It's fantastic to see people.
to understand that.
And I, and Mike, I actuallyreally believe that, I know
enough entrepreneurs and so doyou, and that, like you said,
(30:06):
they're good people.
If they knew there was a way tohelp the people that work for
them solve some of theseproblems, they'd be the first
people to sign up for it.
I mean, we both know that'strue.
The problem is.
The problems are so deep andcomplex that, and it's not our
core competency.
It's like I don't have thebandwidth to do that.
(30:28):
now we've got history, we've gotdata, we've got models across
the country where interestedemployer doesn't have to, don't
have to recreate this, you know,it's, we've got a template that
can be used.
If they're in a community that,that doesn't have access to a
(30:50):
source like, or one of theadaptations, which I think, you
know, I hope this just keepsgrowing and keeps gaining
momentum.
And the other thing that I likeabout it, I have this can, do
you mind if we take a littleside trip, into capitalism
theory for a moment?
Mike Goldman (31:09):
Sure love side trips.
Mark Peters (31:13):
you know, we get, there's a lot of, there's a lot
of, media talk about, you know,is capitalism dead?
and you know, there's a lot ofmaybe unknown and turmoil and
lots of, division and.
You know, over 50% of Americaworks for small and mid-market
(31:34):
companies, and these are, Ibelieve, probably people that
are listening to your show.
People that, that I get to gospeak to, they show up every
day.
They run their businesses.
They care about their people.
What I love about this model isas employers, we get some value
from people that at work and areengaged in what we do.
(31:56):
And so.
not looking for governmentfunding to run that nonprofit.
We're funding that nonprofit andwe're getting some value from
the work that they do, whichmeans that is a sustainable
nonprofit because they'rereturning measurable value to
the community.
and I think that's a reallygreat aspect of capitalism.
(32:19):
Yes, we have to be profitable,we do get to build.
Our equations right within ourorganizations, and we get to
decide what we spend some of ourmoney on.
And so I think that this modelreally does help build.
Strength and stability into ourcommunities through doing what
(32:42):
we do, and that's being greatemployers.
I just, um, so I think it's acapitalist model.
I, I really do.
It doesn't require governmentfunding.
It doesn't require picking apolitical side of the aisle to
keep it going.
it doesn't require religiousaffiliation.
It requires some hard work andit requires a little bit of
(33:02):
understanding about the peoplethat to work for you.
Mike Goldman (33:06):
For a leader that loves this idea, and I hope
everybody loves this idea for, Ido, for a leader that loves this
idea and says, Hey, I wanna dosomething like this, or get
involved in something like this.
How do they, how do, what's thebest way to find out if some
similar model exists in theirarea?
(33:28):
And if it doesn't, what's thebest way for maybe them to start
that up in their local area?
Mark Peters (33:34):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think we're, youknow, I think we've, we're
sharing like my LinkedInconnection and whatnot, I, my
office will gladly run thatdown.
I mean, you can go online andlook up the, you know,
grsource.org.
I don't think we provided thatcontact, but we can, to.
Mike Goldman (33:55):
And we'll put, and we'll put that, we'll put that
in the show notes so everybody'sgot that.
Mark Peters (33:58):
you know, to see what it's about.
But I would say if people wannacontact me through LinkedIn,
that's probably the easiest.
And I can, I, we'll find out.
And if somebody's interested inbeing a champion, I'd love to
talk to'em.
I, and again, because we've got,there's experts around the
country now that know how to dothis, so.
(34:21):
We are not
Mike Goldman (34:22):
Love.
Mark Peters (34:22):
from scratch.
Mike Goldman (34:23):
Love it.
Love it.
And thanks so much for offeringthat.
So now I wanna turn to, to, toyour new book coming out in
June, or depending on whenyou're listening to this, it
came out in June of 2025.
and Mark and I both at thispoint again, depending on when
you're listening, we both havebooks we're working on that are
launching in the not too distantfuture, but So your new book is
(34:46):
called The Retention Trap.
Tell me a little bit about thatbook and why you decided to
write it.
Mark Peters (34:51):
Yeah.
This is gonna sound a little,you know, we just talked about
these things that you can do asan employer to help retain your
employees.
And now I'm gonna tell you tonot focus on retaining your
employees.
but, you know, I don't thinkit's that much different.
and Mike, I think we werechatting pre-show and I said, I
told my writer the reason shesaid, why do you wanna write
this book?
And she was talking about thesource.
(35:12):
And I said, so I can write mysecond book?
She goes, that's a really badidea.
Nobody does that.
like, well, I think what I wannacommunicate is I've been doing
this workforce development andtalent investment for over 20
years, you know, and I know thatit works.
But the retention trap, I'vegotten to the point, Mike, where
I believe we spend far too muchtime focusing on how to keep
(35:36):
employees.
and it's led us to some reallynot great.
in fact, I would, I do argue inthe book some places that are,
that don't serve us and if wewould do a better job at
focusing on investing in thepeople that work for us and less
(36:01):
concerned about whether theystay or not.
Understanding that don't show upto work for us and then we get
to keep'em forever.
That's not how it works.
And you know, I was having aconversation with a friend of
mine who's a regional presidentof a bank, he says, wait a
(36:22):
minute.
He said, you're, he says, wheream I gonna find the extra money
in my budget to make theseinvestments in education and
talent and whatnot?
and I said, well, you know, hesaid, I'm gonna do that and then
they're gonna leave.
I'm like, look, they're leavinganyway.
And the fact that people areleaving all of our companies for
(36:44):
various different jobs is a costto us.
There's turbulence when thathappens.
a lot of times we don't have alot of notice, which means, you
know, we're hiring contractors,we're asking people to fill in.
we don't tend to quantify thosecosts very well.
And, again, going back to theproblem solving skills, we also
(37:05):
don't tend to try to apply ourproblem solving skills to this
problem.
What I believe that if we.
Spend more of our money and ourtime, first of all,
understanding what people wantto learn and then investing in
(37:28):
them, learning that.
I believe we get stronger, morerobust organizations.
I also.
Believe and have some history.
I have, I don't have a, I don'thave a, I don't have a working
model yet, Mike, but I'm gonnaget there in the next 18 months,
that people will help you filltheir position you've had a
(37:54):
conversation about being readyto leave your organization.
Now I go as far in the book asto suggest.
We should build the network ofemployers that share similar
cultures for our people to gowork for.
Mike Goldman (38:11):
Wow.
Mark Peters (38:12):
and one of my personal goals is to get to a
point where I am a part of my HRteam's bonus is based on how
many people they've promoted toother companies in better jobs.
That, that's how strongly Ibelieve in how this works.
And each one of us is part of alarger talent system.
(38:36):
It's understanding where we arein that system and that people
are gonna move, people are gonnacome to workforce and they're
gonna leave.
They're gonna try to go find abetter job.
So instead of being resistant tothat, how can we embrace that?
How can we be this great placefor people to work and learn
(38:56):
they're on their talent journey?
Because,'cause we're still aplace to work while they're on
their talent journey.
Like, that's not gonna change.
So why don't we embrace the factthat they're on their talent
journey and help them get to thebest possible spot they can be.
(39:16):
And yes, they're gonna leave.
Again, we talk, we started outby talking about trust and
communicating openly andhonestly to promote effective
teamwork.
this is a reality.
None of us want to, none of uswanna say that.
We wanna say, well, we can keeppeople longer, we'll offer'em
more money, we'll offer'embetter benefits.
We'll offer'em a different workschedule.
(39:37):
Do you really wanna like keeppaying somebody more to keep
them if they don't wanna bethere?
Why do we do that?
We do it'cause we don't wanna gothrough the work of hiring
somebody else.
But if we, if we can, if with,and again, this becomes this
whole idea of intention.
If we shift our intention just alittle bit around our talent and
(39:57):
we embrace this flow, and wemake it okay to have
conversations about leaving anorganization.
to do something better or moreinteresting, however that other
person sees that it changes aawful lot of dynamics within our
organization.
Mike Goldman (40:17):
You probably become like you, you just think
about the negative, well, now Igot these great people who are
leaving.
But I would think if that's the,if that's the environment you
are creating, you become atalent magnet.
Mark Peters (40:30):
Sure.
Yeah.
and you know what the realityis, you also get people who.
Continue to get learning anddon't leave.
'cause they love it.
They wanna be part of thatenvironment.
Right.
Mike Goldman (40:42):
Yeah, and I forget this was either, it may have
been Steve Jobs said this.
I don't remember who said it,but, What was the quote?
It was, somebody asked thequestion, what if you do, what
if you spend all that money andall that time training people
and then they leave, right?
And he said, well, what if youdon't?
And they stay.
Mark Peters (41:01):
So you know what?
There was a comic and I think itwas in the Times, I have tried
to find the source of thatbecause you're absolutely right.
It was a, and the comic stripwas a CEO talking to A CFO.
And the CFO says, well, what ifwe spend all that money on
training and education?
And they leave, and the CEOlooks at him and says, well,
(41:22):
what if we don't?
And they stay, but I think thereality is it's, how we look at
it.
It what if we spend its money on'em and they leave.
But, and here's the challengethat I would give people.
I really believe based on, soI'll say two more things about
the book.
I do a little bit of a deep diveinto what some of the big
(41:43):
systems are doing around talentand I talk about the US Chamber
of Commerce Foundation andtheir, Talent pipeline
management curriculum, which isvery robust, but it's being used
across some big systems, andthey're anticipating, they're
looking at like 15 year timehorizon for talent in like
healthcare and automotive.
(42:04):
And there's some of these,trends that are going on in our
country right now as small andmid-market companies, we don't
have any visibility to.
they're going to affect us asthe demographics of our
population change, our abilityto hire people, just from a
(42:25):
demographic number standpoint isgoing to get more challenged
than what we're experiencingtoday.
So the question
Mike Goldman (42:33):
is that because Mark, the population is getting
older?
Mark Peters (42:36):
I mean, I think you've got the population
shifts, you've got, and we'vegot a lot of people who are
gonna have a hard time makingthe skills jump.
I mean, you know, I think, youknow, AI's coming on so fast and
all of the skills you need to dojobs that were.
You know, pretty manual andrelatively unskilled just a few
(42:58):
years ago are gonna require adifferent level of skillset.
so, you know, we're gonna, Ithink we're just gonna have a
more and more difficult time,filling some of those positions.
but some of what's beinganticipated and worked on a
large system basis.
is pretty interesting and it'sactually available to small and
(43:19):
mid-market companies.
It's not like it's unavailableto us.
we don't know about it.
And, but I think the advantagethat we have as you know,
smaller, mid-market companies isthat all of that stuff is very.
what I call enterprise centric.
So it's all about protecting theorganization and I think what we
(43:40):
bring to the table is we canalso be people centric.
if we can be people centric andenterprise centric, I think
that's a great winning strategy.
and I think that by going outand learning about some of these
things that are already outthere that we can put to work in
terms of.
(44:01):
Enterprise centric talentplanning strategies and at doing
very personalized talentinvestment and really truly
being interested in helpingpeople be successful and grow.
now we don't have tonecessarily, you know, if we
have a technical position and Ihave a number of technical
(44:21):
positions that are one person, Idon't have a whole department of
technical positions, so I lose.
One of those technical people,it's a big deal.
But if I know they're gonna goand they can help me fill the
role, and I'm planning for thattransition, it's far less
difficult for me to have thathappen and have that event
(44:42):
happen in my organization.
Mike Goldman (44:46):
But that's important.
And I think what you just saidis important is that if you've
got that environment wherepeople understand when it's time
for them to move up or on,you're actually gonna help them
do that.
And it's not gonna be a scarysituation.
what winds up happening ispeople are more, they're more
transparent about it andtherefore.
(45:09):
You've got more time to say,okay, if that's what you are
planning to do, I could help youdo that.
But at the same time, you know,I need you to help me bring this
other person up to speed in whatyou do.
It just seems like you will havemuch smoother, transitions that
way.
Mark Peters (45:26):
yeah.
I mean, that would be the goal,right?
and I, but I also, I also go asfar in the book as to say.
You know, we don't like, wedon't offer health insurance.
It's like, I'll say, Hey Mike,if you wanna come to work for
me, I'll give you healthinsurance, but you've gotta
commit to stay working for mefor three years.
You'd be like, what?
Same with 401k.
I think education is gonna moveinto that.
(45:48):
It's gonna be the green's fees.
People are gonna ask, well,what's your, you know, what's
your education benefit?
And if you don't have one, ifyou don't, if you don't have a
strategy around investing intheir growth.
They're not, they're gonnachoose somebody a different
place to work.
We're not there yet.
Which I, which is why I think assmall to mid-market companies,
we've got a real opportunitywindow right now.
(46:10):
but we're gonna get there.
I, five years, I don't know whatit is, but it's gonna happen.
Mike Goldman (46:15):
Yeah, love this.
and I can't wait to share thenew book, the Retention Trap
sounds like a book I'm gonnawanna share with all my clients.
So, so you've got a few, you'vegot a few baked in sales there.
So, that'll get you tobestseller status, but love this
stuff.
you mentioned it earlier, but Iwanna do it again as we wrap up,
if people wanna find out moreabout, about you.
(46:37):
I know you know, you got thebook coming out, you do some
speaking, but give us a littlekind of list if people wanna
find out more about you or aboutthe source and how to find that.
Tell us again what's the bestway for them to find you and
find that information?
Mark Peters (46:51):
Yeah, so we have a website.
it's, I- leadership.com.
that's got a lot of informationon it.
Mark Peters Butterball Farms onLinkedIn.
Those are probably the twoeasiest ways to get in touch
with me, directly.
Um, the, if someone's interestedabout the source, the West
Michigan version of the source,it's, gr do org
(47:16):
https://www.grsource.org/.
I should have had that in frontof me.
Mike Goldman (47:20):
That's all right.
we'll make sure, we'll make sureto kind of research that and put
that in the show notes.
So, so if it was wrong, look inthe show notes and we'll make
sure it's right.
Mark Peters (47:28):
right.
Otherwise, just Google thesource.
Grand Rapids.
I guarantee you it'll come up.
Mike Goldman (47:34):
Beautiful.
Beautiful.
Well, I always say if you want agreat company, you need a great
leadership team.
Mark, thanks for helping us getthere today.
This stuff was amazing.
Mark Peters (47:43):
helping me to get to the leadership team I got
today, so I kind of owe thatdirectly to you, so I appreciate
it.
Mike Goldman (47:49):
I said earlier, the invoice is coming.
Thanks, mark.
Mark Peters (47:53):
thanks Mike.
And each one of us is part of a larger talent
system.
It's understanding where we arein that system and that people
are gonna move, people are gonnacome to workforce and they're
gonna leave.
They're gonna try to go find abetter job.
So instead of being resistant tothat, how can we embrace that?
(00:22):
How can we be this great placefor people to work and learn
they're on their talent journey?
cause we're still a place towork while they're on their
talent journey.
Like, that's not gonna change.
So why don't we embrace the factthat they're on their talent
journey and help them get to thebest possible spot they can be.
(00:42):
And yes, they're gonna leave.
this is a reality.
Mike Goldman (00:52):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the
(01:12):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
Mark Peters is the CEO ofButterball Farms, a leading
producer of culinary butter andmargarine.
It was recognized as one of thebest and brightest companies to
(01:35):
work for from 2018 to 2024.
He began his career as a factoryworker at 12 and later took over
the family business at 30 with afocus on not only financial
success, but worker wellbeing.
And we're gonna talk a lot aboutthat today.
In 2003, he co-founded TheSource, a nonprofit, helping
(01:56):
workers overcome personalchallenges.
He authored two books, theSource, and Coming in June, the
Retention Trap.
So depending on when you'relistening to this, it's either
out or about to come out.
Mark is a sought after speakerlives in Grand Rapids with his
daughter and dog.
and I can't wait to Mark,discuss your journey, and share
(02:16):
kind of a, you know, a movement,I'll call it, that you started
that, you know, went well beyondyour company.
So, mark, welcome to the show.
Mark Peters (02:26):
Thanks, Mike.
I'm super happy to be heretoday.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation.
Mike Goldman (02:30):
Yeah, and light.
This seems to be an ongoingtheme that many of my guests
somehow, I either met throughVistage,
Mark Peters (02:37):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (02:37):
which if you don't know and you should, is a kind
of CEO peer group mastermindgroup.
If you don't know'em, look'emup.
So, a lot of my guests areeither folks I met because there
were in a Vistage group I talkedto, or there are other Vistage
certified speakers.
So, speakers.
So there, there's a theme.
but anyway, Mark, so the.
First question I always ask thatI want to ask you, is in all of
(02:58):
your experience, what do youbelieve is the number one
characteristic of a greatleadership team?
Mark Peters (03:07):
You know what, Mike, I can sum that up in one
word.
It's called trust and I.
I don't mean that lightly.
I've just gone through about atwo and a half year experience,
which kind of led me through aturnaround situation where we
ended up with a high degree ofmistrust on our executive team
and it filtered down throughoutthe whole organization.
(03:31):
and one of the things that Ilearned through that process is
that as the CEO.
I tolerated, an undercurrent ofmistrust far longer than I
should have.
and it turned into some reallytoxic behavior.
(03:52):
Um, and I think that, you know,that's when you and I really
connected was.
your leadership assessment thattalks about toxic teams.
And I tell you, I sat in thatmeeting and I ranked my
executive team and every singleone of'em came up toxic.
That was a bad day for me.
Mike Goldman (04:13):
You.
You are welcome.
Mark Peters (04:14):
the underlying theme when I go back, was really
around, is around trust.
And, you know, one of ourguiding principles is to
communicate openly.
And honestly to promoteeffective teamwork.
And we were not, we were notcommunicating honestly with each
other.
and that requires some toughconversations.
(04:35):
You know, I mean, not everythingis sunshine and roses at the top
of a company.
You gotta make decisions aboutassigning capital.
You've gotta make decisionsabout customers and pricing it
doesn't always make everydepartment super happy.
but you've gotta be able to havethose conversations and you've
gotta be able to do it in a waythat maintains, trust.
(04:59):
So I would double down on thatstatement.
Mike Goldman (05:02):
Yeah.
And I love what you said it wasa problem because you tolerated
it and Yeah, and what I loveabout.
Hearing that and kudos to youfor thinking of it that way, is
there are a lot of leaders that,that I meet with that, that,
that point the fingerexternally.
(05:23):
You know, why aren't thesepeople more trustworthy?
Why isn't there more trust?
And saying you tolerate it meansyou understand that if there's a
lack of trust, it's stemmingfrom you.
It's stemming from yourbehavior, whether you are not
trusting enough to communicatehonestly and or your accepting
it in your organization.
So I love that you're, you tookownership for it.
Mark Peters (05:46):
Yeah.
So that was, that's a biglearning.
It's a big learning for me.
Mike Goldman (05:53):
Tell me a little bit about, before we, I
definitely wanna dive into thesource, which is the nonprofit
that you founded and the book,and then we'll talk about your
new book and all things aroundthat.
but I wanna start off a littlebit with your story.
So tell, first, tell me a littlebit about Butterball Farms.
And then I want to go into kindof your story from a kid growing
(06:14):
up in the business.
But first, tell me a little bitabout the business.
Mark Peters (06:17):
I always hate those introductions because it sounds
like, you know, you're trying topack a whole lifetime of history
into like two sentences.
You know, my business is, it's,we're second generation family
business.
we make, history is makingbutter with designs on it.
my, my father.
Said, you know, embossed butteris what our company did.
So historically we did any bigbranded hotel that you can think
(06:43):
of from, say 20 years ago or 30years ago, we probably did their
logos.
Hyatt, Sheridan, Weston, RitzCarlton, Wyndham, we, lots of
'em, but you know, they wereall, they all ran their own
restaurants in those days.
They ran their own food andbeverage and catering.
And so those were sort of ourbig customers around the
(07:04):
country, when I took the, when Itook the business over.
So I started working for'em whenI was 12, and he told me there
was no more summers at the lakefor me and time to go to work.
and I talk a little bit about itin my book, the Source, but he
got all of his, the supervisorsaround the, his desk and he
introduced me as his son and hesaid, now if he does anything
(07:26):
wrong, just fire him.
Don't come talk to me.
Just fire him.
Mike Goldman (07:30):
I love it.
Mark Peters (07:31):
my dad just didn't bluff, right?
So I'm this impressional12-year-old kid, and you know, I
took him at his word, so.
I learned early on to make a lotof friends.
I, you know, I got to know thepeople that, that I was working
with and really this is, it'skind of interesting because
people say when they read thesource and some of the themes
(07:53):
that are in the book, it's likewhere, you know, growing up the
way you grew up, how did you endup here and.
You know, I mean, I can point tosome of my Christian values and
you know, some of those things,but I really think it was the
lived experience that startedwhen I was 12 with the people in
the plant and really having thisneed to get to know the people I
(08:15):
was working with to protect myown job.
So somewhat, you know, self.
Whatever, whatever the word I'mlooking for is.
Mike Goldman (08:24):
Self-preservation.
Mark Peters (08:26):
Self preservation and, and, but what I, you know,
I learned that the people thatwere working in our family
business very different livesthat than I lived.
I mean, they were concernedabout paycheck to paycheck.
They were concerned about buyinggroceries.
They were concerned about theirkids off the street.
They were concerned about.
(08:47):
Buying shoes about whether theycould repair their car or not,
or, you know, I mean, thingsthat never, ever entered my
field of thought as a kid or ayoung adult.
so I think that, you know, 12,13, 14, 15, 16, those years
where I was in the plant workingand really getting to know the
(09:08):
people, that worked for us.
And then seeing how my dadtreated them, was really the
genesis for a lot of the thoughtprocess that went into the book,
the source in particular, andfounding of the source.
So I.
Mike Goldman (09:25):
And what is that?
When you said the way your dadtreated them, was it a good
example or a bad example?
Mark Peters (09:31):
sorry, I, that's a great question.
I sort of thought that, Iimplied it was a bad example,
but,
Mike Goldman (09:37):
That's what I thought I wanted to make, be
real clear.
Mark Peters (09:40):
so it like to be more specific, we didn't have
health insurance.
No.
401k.
I mean, it was like.
This is how much I pay you anhour and this is what I expect
you to do.
And that's the beginning and theend of the work contract, you
know, and, he legitimatelytreated most of the people that
came to work for us, like adifferent class of citizen.
(10:03):
and again, I don't, you know,my, my religious upbringing.
Would have suggested thateverybody was created in God's
image.
So everybody requires a certainlevel of dignity.
And I really struggled with thedifference between, you know, my
dad at home, my dad at church,and my dad at work.
(10:27):
And my dad at work was a verydifferent, it was a very, it was
acted out very differently andit didn't make any sense to me
and that, and I got to meet whowere just really amazing
individuals and working reallyhard for their family and
committed to their family and,but they were not treated like
that in our workplace.
Mike Goldman (10:50):
And what do you believe?
So, so you grow up in thebusiness and you see that as an
example of, that's not the way Iwant to be.
and it shapes some beliefs thatyou have.
Tell me more about like, what doyou believe?
There are a lot of leaders whoare very good people and treat
their people okay.
Mark Peters (11:06):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (11:06):
their focus is very much profitability of the
business.
And of course, if you don'tfocus on profitability, you
don't have a business, so you'vegotta focus there.
But, I know you have some verystrong beliefs about the
responsibility a company has totheir people.
Mark Peters (11:22):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (11:23):
and I'd love to hear more about how you think
about that.
Mark Peters (11:26):
Yeah.
It's, you know what I, and I dothink lots of leaders have
different approaches and that'sfine.
I just am, I wanna try to thinkof the most succinct way to say
this.
I, I think that we have, I, soI'll just say, I, instead of
saying we or us as entrepreneursor anything like that, and
hopefully I can inspire someother people to think in a
(11:47):
similar way.
We have, I have this enterprisewhere come to work.
And spend 40 plus hours a weekunder my influence.
And when I say that it, it's theway they're treated and how we
show up as an employer, how Ishow up as an employer, and if
(12:08):
that work environment is toxicor.
demeaning or not honoring, notinterested in what makes
somebody successful.
Those people go home andworkplace experience affects the
way they act at home.
(12:28):
Now, if they're, most of ouremployees are 40 hours plus.
I mean, we're full, we're afull-time employer up from the
top all the way down to theplant floor.
So people that are coming intomy house.
Are spending more time with methan they are with in any other
sector of their life.
So I can either choose to beintentional about that influence
(12:52):
or I can choose to not beintentional about it.
But not being intentional aboutit is a choice.
And so I have, ever since myfather passed away, worked very
hard to try to design aworkplace.
Where people who are coming into, to put food in boxes can
(13:15):
have the best possible workexperience from, their team, the
way they're treated, developmentopportunities, you know, simple
things like please and thank youkeeping the environment clean so
that they've got great space to,to be in.
I all sorts of other sorts of,you know, respect and interest,
(13:38):
kinds of things.
And that's really, what led meto start the source was I could
not provide, there's so manypeople in my workforce that had
complexities in their lives thatI couldn't help them with, and I
really wanted to do somethingmore.
(13:58):
Around helping people addressagain, we talked about some of
'em a little bit earlier, likewhether it's transportation or
housing or childcare or somebodyin their family has medical
issues they don't know how todeal with.
just, you know, we're not asocial agency.
you said earlier, we have to beprofitable.
We can't just, you know, payeverybody's bills for'em.
(14:19):
They've gotta set a wage rate.
We've gotta run a profitablebusiness.
But at the same point in my lifethat I'm thinking about these
things, I'm also serving on acouple of inner city nonprofit
boards, and I'm realizing that alot of these organizations, and
I would suspect a lot of yourlisteners do the same thing.
This is not an uncommon dynamicin my experience of business
(14:42):
leaders who also serve in anonprofit world, something that
they're passionate about.
But what I got really interestedin was.
That those organizations that Iserved on the board of were
great at telling their storiesto their donors and their
supporters.
They were far less effective atgetting their clients.
And then the next step of thatthinking was that those clients
(15:03):
work for me.
And then I'm like, well, how amI sharing these services out to
the people that work for me?
And that was the skeletonstructure of what became the
source.
The source became this conduitfor employees of the member
companies, to find resourcesthat would help them in almost
(15:28):
any situation with the goal ofstaying at work, you know, so
that none of those things intheir lives would create an
event.
that would take them out oftheir employment.
so, so, you know, I was sofocused on trying to change that
work experience for people thatI actually went out and got
(15:49):
businesses to help me buildsomething, to do this.
and it, you know, we've now,we've got almost 22 years of
data on the source and 28 membercompanies.
it's pretty amazing what it'sturned into.
Anyway, I'm kind of going in alldifferent
Mike Goldman (16:05):
No.
No, and I'm not stopping youbecause that's the heart of, I
think what's so different andwhat's so important of what.
The reason I was so interestedin having you on the show is
that we're not just talkingabout.
You know, how, what kind ofculture we should be creating in
our business and how you retainemployees and all those things
(16:27):
are important.
And both of us have writtenbooks on those things, so, so
super important by our books.
Absolutely.
but you went well beyond andsaid.
Wait a minute, there may be anew model here because as a, you
know, we're not running andyou're, you've got a very
successful business, but it'snot Google or Meta or Apple
(16:52):
where it's a company big enoughwhere if that's what you want to
offer up and make available toyour employees, you've got a
company that's a, you know, a$50billion, a hundred billion
dollar company.
You, you could build thosethings if you want.
You may or may not do it, butyou can.
but what you've done is said,wait a minute.
There's a whole bunch ofmid-market companies out there,
(17:13):
small companies out there thatjust don't have the money or the
time or the expertise or theresources to do these things,
and therefore, I'm gonna figureout a different way to get it
done.
Mark Peters (17:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
that's really what it was.
And here's what so.
Here's what's interesting to me,and I think one of the themes
in, in, in the Source and alsoin the retention trap is, you
know, as employers, asentrepreneurs, we're really good
at problem solving.
In fact, I would argue that'sour superpower for the world.
(17:53):
that's how you start a business.
you have a, either a better wayor a different way, or you've
got a, you know, a product, aservice, a, formula, something
that's different, better,creates a better outcome for
your customers.
And then you're successful atit.
You've gotta hire people.
What's interesting to me is wedon't tend to apply our problem
(18:16):
solving skills internally,especially around our people
nearly as well as we doexternally, especially around
our customers, right?
And so, many times through thehistory of building the source,
we talk to employers and askthem like, how many people do
(18:40):
you think in your organizationare getting some sort of
government assistance?
Now, the source can take theroster of social security
numbers and run it throughwhatever database they run it
through, and they can tell youwhat percentage of your
workforce is getting likeDepartment of Health and Human
Services, benefits.
It is shocking to me how manypeople have no clue as to the
(19:05):
number or percentage of theirworkforce that may be government
benefits on top of their wages.
And so I, I think that one of myhopes with the book, the source
is to get other leaders to.
Be a little bit more curiousabout the composition of their
(19:27):
workforce, and then get a littlebit more curious about how they
can positively impact that.
You know, we've had people sayabout the source that it's
almost more important to themthan their health insurance
benefits, because what thesource does is it's available at
exactly the moment of need.
(19:49):
You know, not that healthinsurance isn't, but.
you know, health insurance canbe complex and a lot of people
are generally pretty healthy.
They don't, they may go a wholeyear and not need it.
Um, but if they're looking atgetting evicted, that's a pretty
emergency need for their familythey need to have that solved
quickly and their landlord ain'thelping'em out, know, so, at the
(20:15):
moment that need occurs.
That the perceived value of thatbenefit for the employees is
outweighed significantly.
you know, that drives astickiness with us as a, as an
employer.
Mike Goldman (20:31):
Yeah.
that's what, you know, what's sointeresting about this and you
said this earlier, so I'm gonnacome back to it, is, you know,
you could look at this as avery.
You know, altruistic, you know,we need to treat people in, you
know, the right way.
and I like what you saidearlier, you know about when you
invite people into your house.
Mark Peters (20:48):
Yeah.
Mike Goldman (20:49):
You didn't say business, you said house.
And that's a very differentfeeling and a very different
level of ownership and caringabout people outside the work.
It's all very, you know, it'sall wonderful.
And at the same time, the otherthing you said was it helps make
sure people don't have issuesthat take them away from work.
So there's an ROI there as wellwhere this is not just be being
(21:13):
a good guy, this is smartbusiness.
Mark Peters (21:15):
Well, and you know what, Mike, the great thing
about the source, theorganization is that we now have
22 years of data, and youmentioned ROI, but the average.
Over all of those 22 years, theaverage ROI to employers is just
over 200%.
And we measure that based on a,you know, it's hard to measure
(21:38):
something that doesn't happen.
So if the source has threeinteractions with an individual,
in a year, it's considered a jobsafe.
And that the history of thatagreement is.
That when the original employersthat came together, we all had a
three times in year out policyaround attendance.
(22:00):
So, and then we just, weassigned a value to the of
having to replace somebody.
And at the, I don't know whatthe number they used now, but
when we started it was like$3,200.
I can tell you for myorganization, the cost of one
turnover event now in an entrylevel position is about$8,500.
(22:22):
and that's if somebody leaves usin the first 90 days of
employment.
And you know, that's another oneof those problems I think that
most employers see thoseturnover calculators and they
legitimately don't believe thenumbers.
they're so big that we don'tbelieve'em.
but when you start solving forthat stuff, you.
(22:45):
You see things like safety getsbetter, defects go down.
People are problems, problemsolving, all the small issues
that come up in a business muchfaster and in alignment.
care about the work environment.
It's cleaner.
you know, you have less sort ofbehavioral incidences in your
facilities.
(23:06):
and we in our business havetracked all of that.
we can see that correlation.
so anyway, there's a, I believethat there's a definite return
and our cost to our business tothe source now is roughly 50
grand a year.
So I say you're getting likethis supercharged HR person for
a fraction of what it would costyou today.
Mike Goldman (23:27):
You, you've given some examples, but tell me a
little bit more of the types ofservices that are now made
available to your team members.
give us a few more examples ofwhat those are so people could
better picture what somethinglike the source could do.
Mark Peters (23:45):
Yeah, so, so in particular, you know, the source
again, is a conduit.
We didn't build an organizationto recreate resources that are
available in the community.
We basically went out, the ideawas to utilize services that
exist in the community.
So, this past year, housing wasthe biggest issue, and I think
(24:07):
that's probably true across thecountry.
housing's expensive.
rental housing is expensive.
difficult to get.
you know, the other thing thatplays into that is people's
credit score.
So if you have a bad creditscore, it's really hard to get a
place to live.
And so we, the source does offersome financial, financial
(24:29):
assistance and some financialtraining.
they actually have a.
Credit union that, that comesalong and offers those, offers,
those services.
They also have like a smalldollar loan program.
And again, I would suspect thatmany of the people that are
listening to this have donethis.
They'll give employees loans,they'll take it outta their
paycheck, you know, that'sgreat, but there's always a
(24:52):
risk.
so we've outsourced all of thatto the source.
they do all of that and they canget information from individuals
that you just can't get as a.
an employer, to really help holdpeople accountable for paying
them back and giving them theskills to manage, you know,
manage their budget.
food scarcity has actually beena big one, so, you know, helping
(25:15):
people with, and so you say,okay, food scarcity.
That means there's not a grocerystore that's got great food
nearby where somebody lives.
Yep, that's true.
more to that though.
There's the food that'savailable in some of our inner
city locations is, is not greatfrom a nutritional perspective.
So part of it is also teachingpeople about nutrition.
(25:36):
Like, like how does eatingcertain foods affect you?
Right?
So the source offers some ofthat nutritional counseling as
well, um, along with.
offering assistance in, ingetting people a full, you know,
making food, more accessible, totheir families.
Transportation I mean, thoseare, right now, those are the
(25:58):
top three.
transportation issues.
You got the same issues withcars today.
I mean, the, the interest rateshave driven loan rates up on
cars, so transportation even toget an inexpensive car.
you know, some of our employeeswould be looking at a 20 to 25%
interest rate, you know, and alot of people that are listening
(26:19):
to this are gonna cringe.
Like, who would ever pay 25% fora car loan?
Well, if that's the only wayyou're gonna get to work, you
may not have another option, butyou're not getting a great car,
which means pretty soon you'regonna have a car repair.
Right.
Pretty soon that car's not gonnarun to get you to work and then
you've got a different problem.
(26:40):
So again, the source actuallyhas developed some relationships
with.
You know, some auto dealers,other people in the, in people
that do car repairs andrestoration.
and also with the bankrelationships, we'll work
through some of those things tohelp make transportation
affordable.
They also will do things that,that help with like, you know,
(27:01):
getting people to the right buslines.
The other thing that the sourcecan do is communicate back to
the company.
So, so like, Hey, we're workingthrough an issue with this
employee.
If you guys could give'em alittle grace, we think we can
fix it in 30 days.
And you know, again, we'reprobably far more likely to.
(27:22):
To trust that the source hasdone some homework.
And they're like, look, we gotthis and we're gonna get this
person back to stability.
Then somebody who's gonna comein and they're not gonna tell
you what the root cause problemis in their life and they're,
and it's gonna sound like abunch of excuses, and then
you're probably gonna end up,they're probably gonna end up
losing their job for attendance.
(27:45):
Um, and so they've been able toshift that dynamic.
so that.
You know, the HR team will know,Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna
give this person a little bit ofgrace while the source works
through it.
and we should be good on theother side.
And when it, believe me, when anemployer does that for an
(28:05):
individual, especially at that,you know, more entry level group
of folks, they've never beentreated like that.
Talk about being treateddifferently than any employer
has ever treated them.
they're not, we will get peopleto say, okay, maybe it's time to
go look for another job, but Iwanna go to work for another
(28:26):
source company.
they don't wanna, they don'twanna give up that sort of
what's becomes a trusted andknowledgeable relationship in
their lives.
Mike Goldman (28:35):
Is this, is the source right now, is it just.
In Grand Rapids in that area, oris it expanded beyond that?
Mark Peters (28:42):
Yeah, well, that's a great question.
So the original source is WestMichigan.
Actually, they're in the processof expanding to the east side of
the state, with a partnershipwith Corwell Health, which is
just fantastic.
the of the source are all acrossthe country.
(29:03):
Like I'm on the board of anorganization called Work Life
Partnership, they do, a.
they have what we, so the peoplethat go out and help actually
interact with our employees arecalled resource navigators.
So, so the work life partnershipis, has got a resource navigator
model that's not quite as hightouch.
(29:23):
Some of it's remote, you know,some of it's remotely or you
know, over, over Zoom.
and they've.
operated in over 35 states.
But then there's other, like, Ihelped, I helped, the Fresno
area set up, what they call it,Heartland Compass.
there's another sourceadaptation out in Washington.
There's a couple out in the EastCoast.
(29:45):
So there's, there's a growingnumber of these adaptations
around the country, which is,it's fantastic to see.
It's fantastic to see people.
to understand that.
And I, and Mike, I actuallyreally believe that, I know
enough entrepreneurs and so doyou, and that, like you said,
(30:06):
they're good people.
If they knew there was a way tohelp the people that work for
them solve some of theseproblems, they'd be the first
people to sign up for it.
I mean, we both know that'strue.
The problem is.
The problems are so deep andcomplex that, and it's not our
core competency.
It's like I don't have thebandwidth to do that.
(30:28):
now we've got history, we've gotdata, we've got models across
the country where interestedemployer doesn't have to, don't
have to recreate this, you know,it's, we've got a template that
can be used.
If they're in a community that,that doesn't have access to a
(30:50):
source like, or one of theadaptations, which I think, you
know, I hope this just keepsgrowing and keeps gaining
momentum.
And the other thing that I likeabout it, I have this can, do
you mind if we take a littleside trip, into capitalism
theory for a moment?
Mike Goldman (31:09):
Sure love side trips.
Mark Peters (31:13):
you know, we get, there's a lot of, there's a lot
of, media talk about, you know,is capitalism dead?
and you know, there's a lot ofmaybe unknown and turmoil and
lots of, division and.
You know, over 50% of Americaworks for small and mid-market
(31:34):
companies, and these are, Ibelieve, probably people that
are listening to your show.
People that, that I get to gospeak to, they show up every
day.
They run their businesses.
They care about their people.
What I love about this model isas employers, we get some value
from people that at work and areengaged in what we do.
(31:56):
And so.
not looking for governmentfunding to run that nonprofit.
We're funding that nonprofit andwe're getting some value from
the work that they do, whichmeans that is a sustainable
nonprofit because they'rereturning measurable value to
the community.
and I think that's a reallygreat aspect of capitalism.
(32:19):
Yes, we have to be profitable,we do get to build.
Our equations right within ourorganizations, and we get to
decide what we spend some of ourmoney on.
And so I think that this modelreally does help build.
Strength and stability into ourcommunities through doing what
(32:42):
we do, and that's being greatemployers.
I just, um, so I think it's acapitalist model.
I, I really do.
It doesn't require governmentfunding.
It doesn't require picking apolitical side of the aisle to
keep it going.
it doesn't require religiousaffiliation.
It requires some hard work andit requires a little bit of
(33:02):
understanding about the peoplethat to work for you.
Mike Goldman (33:06):
For a leader that loves this idea, and I hope
everybody loves this idea for, Ido, for a leader that loves this
idea and says, Hey, I wanna dosomething like this, or get
involved in something like this.
How do they, how do, what's thebest way to find out if some
similar model exists in theirarea?
(33:28):
And if it doesn't, what's thebest way for maybe them to start
that up in their local area?
Mark Peters (33:34):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think we're, youknow, I think we've, we're
sharing like my LinkedInconnection and whatnot, I, my
office will gladly run thatdown.
I mean, you can go online andlook up the, you know,
grsource.org.
I don't think we provided thatcontact, but we can, to.
Mike Goldman (33:55):
And we'll put, and we'll put that, we'll put that
in the show notes so everybody'sgot that.
Mark Peters (33:58):
you know, to see what it's about.
But I would say if people wannacontact me through LinkedIn,
that's probably the easiest.
And I can, I, we'll find out.
And if somebody's interested inbeing a champion, I'd love to
talk to'em.
I, and again, because we've got,there's experts around the
country now that know how to dothis, so.
(34:21):
We are not
Mike Goldman (34:22):
Love.
Mark Peters (34:22):
from scratch.
Mike Goldman (34:23):
Love it.
Love it.
And thanks so much for offeringthat.
So now I wanna turn to, to, toyour new book coming out in
June, or depending on whenyou're listening to this, it
came out in June of 2025.
and Mark and I both at thispoint again, depending on when
you're listening, we both havebooks we're working on that are
launching in the not too distantfuture, but So your new book is
(34:46):
called The Retention Trap.
Tell me a little bit about thatbook and why you decided to
write it.
Mark Peters (34:51):
Yeah.
This is gonna sound a little,you know, we just talked about
these things that you can do asan employer to help retain your
employees.
And now I'm gonna tell you tonot focus on retaining your
employees.
but, you know, I don't thinkit's that much different.
and Mike, I think we werechatting pre-show and I said, I
told my writer the reason shesaid, why do you wanna write
this book?
And she was talking about thesource.
(35:12):
And I said, so I can write mysecond book?
She goes, that's a really badidea.
Nobody does that.
like, well, I think what I wannacommunicate is I've been doing
this workforce development andtalent investment for over 20
years, you know, and I know thatit works.
But the retention trap, I'vegotten to the point, Mike, where
I believe we spend far too muchtime focusing on how to keep
(35:36):
employees.
and it's led us to some reallynot great.
in fact, I would, I do argue inthe book some places that are,
that don't serve us and if wewould do a better job at
focusing on investing in thepeople that work for us and less
(36:01):
concerned about whether theystay or not.
Understanding that don't show upto work for us and then we get
to keep'em forever.
That's not how it works.
And you know, I was having aconversation with a friend of
mine who's a regional presidentof a bank, he says, wait a
(36:22):
minute.
He said, you're, he says, wheream I gonna find the extra money
in my budget to make theseinvestments in education and
talent and whatnot?
and I said, well, you know, hesaid, I'm gonna do that and then
they're gonna leave.
I'm like, look, they're leavinganyway.
And the fact that people areleaving all of our companies for
(36:44):
various different jobs is a costto us.
There's turbulence when thathappens.
a lot of times we don't have alot of notice, which means, you
know, we're hiring contractors,we're asking people to fill in.
we don't tend to quantify thosecosts very well.
And, again, going back to theproblem solving skills, we also
(37:05):
don't tend to try to apply ourproblem solving skills to this
problem.
What I believe that if we.
Spend more of our money and ourtime, first of all,
understanding what people wantto learn and then investing in
(37:28):
them, learning that.
I believe we get stronger, morerobust organizations.
I also.
Believe and have some history.
I have, I don't have a, I don'thave a, I don't have a working
model yet, Mike, but I'm gonnaget there in the next 18 months,
that people will help you filltheir position you've had a
(37:54):
conversation about being readyto leave your organization.
Now I go as far in the book asto suggest.
We should build the network ofemployers that share similar
cultures for our people to gowork for.
Mike Goldman (38:11):
Wow.
Mark Peters (38:12):
and one of my personal goals is to get to a
point where I am a part of my HRteam's bonus is based on how
many people they've promoted toother companies in better jobs.
That, that's how strongly Ibelieve in how this works.
And each one of us is part of alarger talent system.
(38:36):
It's understanding where we arein that system and that people
are gonna move, people are gonnacome to workforce and they're
gonna leave.
They're gonna try to go find abetter job.
So instead of being resistant tothat, how can we embrace that?
How can we be this great placefor people to work and learn
(38:56):
they're on their talent journey?
Because,'cause we're still aplace to work while they're on
their talent journey.
Like, that's not gonna change.
So why don't we embrace the factthat they're on their talent
journey and help them get to thebest possible spot they can be.
(39:16):
And yes, they're gonna leave.
Again, we talk, we started outby talking about trust and
communicating openly andhonestly to promote effective
teamwork.
this is a reality.
None of us want to, none of uswanna say that.
We wanna say, well, we can keeppeople longer, we'll offer'em
more money, we'll offer'embetter benefits.
We'll offer'em a different workschedule.
(39:37):
Do you really wanna like keeppaying somebody more to keep
them if they don't wanna bethere?
Why do we do that?
We do it'cause we don't wanna gothrough the work of hiring
somebody else.
But if we, if we can, if with,and again, this becomes this
whole idea of intention.
If we shift our intention just alittle bit around our talent and
(39:57):
we embrace this flow, and wemake it okay to have
conversations about leaving anorganization.
to do something better or moreinteresting, however that other
person sees that it changes aawful lot of dynamics within our
organization.
Mike Goldman (40:17):
You probably become like you, you just think
about the negative, well, now Igot these great people who are
leaving.
But I would think if that's the,if that's the environment you
are creating, you become atalent magnet.
Mark Peters (40:30):
Sure.
Yeah.
and you know what the realityis, you also get people who.
Continue to get learning anddon't leave.
'cause they love it.
They wanna be part of thatenvironment.
Right.
Mike Goldman (40:42):
Yeah, and I forget this was either, it may have
been Steve Jobs said this.
I don't remember who said it,but, What was the quote?
It was, somebody asked thequestion, what if you do, what
if you spend all that money andall that time training people
and then they leave, right?
And he said, well, what if youdon't?
And they stay.
Mark Peters (41:01):
So you know what?
There was a comic and I think itwas in the Times, I have tried
to find the source of thatbecause you're absolutely right.
It was a, and the comic stripwas a CEO talking to A CFO.
And the CFO says, well, what ifwe spend all that money on
training and education?
And they leave, and the CEOlooks at him and says, well,
(41:22):
what if we don't?
And they stay, but I think thereality is it's, how we look at
it.
It what if we spend its money on'em and they leave.
But, and here's the challengethat I would give people.
I really believe based on, soI'll say two more things about
the book.
I do a little bit of a deep diveinto what some of the big
(41:43):
systems are doing around talentand I talk about the US Chamber
of Commerce Foundation andtheir, Talent pipeline
management curriculum, which isvery robust, but it's being used
across some big systems, andthey're anticipating, they're
looking at like 15 year timehorizon for talent in like
healthcare and automotive.
(42:04):
And there's some of these,trends that are going on in our
country right now as small andmid-market companies, we don't
have any visibility to.
they're going to affect us asthe demographics of our
population change, our abilityto hire people, just from a
(42:25):
demographic number standpoint isgoing to get more challenged
than what we're experiencingtoday.
So the question
Mike Goldman (42:33):
is that because Mark, the population is getting
older?
Mark Peters (42:36):
I mean, I think you've got the population
shifts, you've got, and we'vegot a lot of people who are
gonna have a hard time makingthe skills jump.
I mean, you know, I think, youknow, AI's coming on so fast and
all of the skills you need to dojobs that were.
You know, pretty manual andrelatively unskilled just a few
(42:58):
years ago are gonna require adifferent level of skillset.
so, you know, we're gonna, Ithink we're just gonna have a
more and more difficult time,filling some of those positions.
but some of what's beinganticipated and worked on a
large system basis.
is pretty interesting and it'sactually available to small and
(43:19):
mid-market companies.
It's not like it's unavailableto us.
we don't know about it.
And, but I think the advantagethat we have as you know,
smaller, mid-market companies isthat all of that stuff is very.
what I call enterprise centric.
So it's all about protecting theorganization and I think what we
(43:40):
bring to the table is we canalso be people centric.
if we can be people centric andenterprise centric, I think
that's a great winning strategy.
and I think that by going outand learning about some of these
things that are already outthere that we can put to work in
terms of.
(44:01):
Enterprise centric talentplanning strategies and at doing
very personalized talentinvestment and really truly
being interested in helpingpeople be successful and grow.
now we don't have tonecessarily, you know, if we
have a technical position and Ihave a number of technical
(44:21):
positions that are one person, Idon't have a whole department of
technical positions, so I lose.
One of those technical people,it's a big deal.
But if I know they're gonna goand they can help me fill the
role, and I'm planning for thattransition, it's far less
difficult for me to have thathappen and have that event
(44:42):
happen in my organization.
Mike Goldman (44:46):
But that's important.
And I think what you just saidis important is that if you've
got that environment wherepeople understand when it's time
for them to move up or on,you're actually gonna help them
do that.
And it's not gonna be a scarysituation.
what winds up happening ispeople are more, they're more
transparent about it andtherefore.
(45:09):
You've got more time to say,okay, if that's what you are
planning to do, I could help youdo that.
But at the same time, you know,I need you to help me bring this
other person up to speed in whatyou do.
It just seems like you will havemuch smoother, transitions that
way.
Mark Peters (45:26):
yeah.
I mean, that would be the goal,right?
and I, but I also, I also go asfar in the book as to say.
You know, we don't like, wedon't offer health insurance.
It's like, I'll say, Hey Mike,if you wanna come to work for
me, I'll give you healthinsurance, but you've gotta
commit to stay working for mefor three years.
You'd be like, what?
Same with 401k.
I think education is gonna moveinto that.
(45:48):
It's gonna be the green's fees.
People are gonna ask, well,what's your, you know, what's
your education benefit?
And if you don't have one, ifyou don't, if you don't have a
strategy around investing intheir growth.
They're not, they're gonnachoose somebody a different
place to work.
We're not there yet.
Which I, which is why I think assmall to mid-market companies,
we've got a real opportunitywindow right now.
(46:10):
but we're gonna get there.
I, five years, I don't know whatit is, but it's gonna happen.
Mike Goldman (46:15):
Yeah, love this.
and I can't wait to share thenew book, the Retention Trap
sounds like a book I'm gonnawanna share with all my clients.
So, so you've got a few, you'vegot a few baked in sales there.
So, that'll get you tobestseller status, but love this
stuff.
you mentioned it earlier, but Iwanna do it again as we wrap up,
if people wanna find out moreabout, about you.
(46:37):
I know you know, you got thebook coming out, you do some
speaking, but give us a littlekind of list if people wanna
find out more about you or aboutthe source and how to find that.
Tell us again what's the bestway for them to find you and
find that information?
Mark Peters (46:51):
Yeah, so we have a website.
it's, I- leadership.com.
that's got a lot of informationon it.
Mark Peters Butterball Farms onLinkedIn.
Those are probably the twoeasiest ways to get in touch
with me, directly.
Um, the, if someone's interestedabout the source, the West
Michigan version of the source,it's, gr do org
(47:16):
https://www.grsource.org/.
I should have had that in frontof me.
Mike Goldman (47:20):
That's all right.
we'll make sure, we'll make sureto kind of research that and put
that in the show notes.
So, so if it was wrong, look inthe show notes and we'll make
sure it's right.
Mark Peters (47:28):
right.
Otherwise, just Google thesource.
Grand Rapids.
I guarantee you it'll come up.
Mike Goldman (47:34):
Beautiful.
Beautiful.
Well, I always say if you want agreat company, you need a great
leadership team.
Mark, thanks for helping us getthere today.
This stuff was amazing.
Mark Peters (47:43):
helping me to get to the leadership team I got
today, so I kind of owe thatdirectly to you, so I appreciate
it.
Mike Goldman (47:49):
I said earlier, the invoice is coming.
Thanks, mark.
Mark Peters (47:53):
thanks Mike.
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