August 2, 2024 • 61 mins
In this Heated 🔥 episode of The Bible Says Podcast, hosts Brandon Matheson and Matt Hunter embark on an in-depth exploration of one of Christianity's mysterious and hotly debated topics: hell and the lake of fire. Join us as we delve into the biblical references and theological interpretations surrounding hell, diving into its various descriptions in the Old and New Testaments. Brandon and Matt shed light on key terms such as Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, explaining their meanings and implications.
Listeners will gain a comprehensive understanding of the biblical foundation for these concepts, challenging common misconceptions and traditions that may not align with Scripture. Through thoughtful discussion and careful exegesis, this episode invites you to question preconceived notions and deepen your grasp of what the Bible truly says about the afterlife.
This episode sets the stage for an enlightening journey through Scripture that promises to challenge and enrich your faith. Be sure to tune in for part 2 next week.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brandon (00:09):
What does the Bible say ?
The Bible says the Bible sayspodcast.
All right guys, welcome in Matt.
What's going on, buddy?
Oh, excited, excited.
What's going on, buddy?
Oh, excited, excited, it'sgoing to be a.
Matt (00:29):
It's going to be some fun episodes right here.
Brandon (00:30):
The next couple episodes are going to be great.
This is the Bible Says Podcast,and I'm Brandon Matheson and
this is Matt Hunter, and we arekind of excited because this is
tonight.
Sometimes we come in here andrecord one episode.
Sometimes we have done as manyas three, but we'll record a
couple tonight.
So the next couple episodesthat you'll see on the Bible
(00:52):
Says podcast are being recordedtonight, and this is our 11th
and the next one will be the12th episode.
So we're very excited aboutthat and we're looking forward.
We are growing, we're gettinggood comments, good feedback,
and we just appreciate youtuning in tonight.
(01:13):
Matt, remind us, as we alwaysdo, where you can find the Bible
Says Podcast, where you canshare it, what's our website,
things like that.
Matt (01:21):
Okay, so easiest place to find it is
thebiblesayspodcastcom.
Forward slash share has alisting of all the podcast
platforms that we're on, as wellas our social media links and
TikTok.
Brandon (01:36):
YouTube Pretty much on everything right, just about.
Just about everything, all themajor platforms we're on all the
major ones.
Good, good.
Well, make sure you'refollowing us on all of those
subscribing where you can like,share all of those kind of
things.
We're very excited about that.
Matt (01:53):
Yep and leave us loads of comments.
We like getting in the commentsplus the comments.
They help with distribution alot.
So the more comments you get,the more people that see it Good
deal.
Brandon (02:05):
I have no clue about all that stuff, but I take your
word for it.
That's my job.
Yep, that's great.
Well, matt, it's good to bewith you tonight and we're so
excited to be here.
We are always on the prowl, ifyou will, for future episodes,
future topics.
This is the Bible Says podcast.
So what we're trying to do iswe're trying to ground our
(02:26):
theology in biblical teaching,and there's so much of tradition
and mainstream religion thatbelieves things and they believe
them vehemently, but they can'tdefend them scripturally.
And our motto around here isthat if you cannot defend your
(02:47):
belief from the Bible clearly,then you probably shouldn't be
believing it vehemently, and sowe want to help you, we want to
help ourselves, we want to learnfrom the Word of God.
As I look back, we're recordingtonight.
I think this particular onethat we're recording right now
is episode 11.
We've talked about a wide gamut.
(03:08):
We've talked about what happensat salvation.
We've talked aboutjustification, sanctification,
glorification.
Then we kind of delved intosome eschatology.
We talked about the rapture ofthe church We've talked about.
Is that biblical?
We've presented differentviewpoints on that.
That led us to addressing themillennial reign of Christ,
(03:33):
which led us to addressing thejudgments, the judgment seat of
Christ, the great white thronejudgment, and then there's all
kinds of offshoots off of thesetopics that we can get into.
And if you get into thejudgment, specifically the great
white throne judgment, itreferences that everyone who was
not written in the Lamb's bookof life was cast into the lake
(03:54):
of fire.
And so that brings up a topicthat we want to introduce
tonight and we want to get intoover these next couple episodes
with you is what do you believeabout the afterlife?
As far as hell and the lake offire?
These are words that are usedin scripture, and what do they
(04:17):
mean?
What do they mean?
What do they stand for?
What does your tradition oryour faith teach you?
What are some of yourpreconceived notions about hell
and the lake of fire?
Are they different?
Are they the same thing?
Is it a real place?
Is it metaphorical?
Does it have fire?
Is it a place of torment?
Who goes there?
(04:38):
Who doesn't go there?
All that kind of stuff.
Matt (04:40):
Yeah, we'll look at a few different views that some people
hold.
Yeah, we'll look at a fewdifferent views that some people
hold.
I know I've had severalconversations with some of our
lovely friends that come visitat people's houses on this topic
.
I got you Jehovah's Witnesses,yes, I got you.
Okay, yes, and they hold a viewthat is not biblical.
(05:02):
What do they believe is notbiblical?
What do they believe?
They actually believe that hellis a metaphor that it does not
exist, that you are simplyforgotten by God.
What a wonderful thought.
You just go into nothingnessand are forgotten if you're not
(05:22):
saved.
Such a hopeful outlook yes that, such a hopeful outlook.
Yes, that's a real hopefuloutlook.
They'll use terms like if youare in the memory of God on
resurrection, if God remembersyou, then you get resurrected.
You make it to heaven if heremembers you.
(05:42):
So God has a memory problemsometimes.
Brandon (05:44):
Well, that's kind of the thought.
There's a lot of differentbeliefs and of course we're
poking at the Jehovah'sWitnesses, because there's ample
ammunition there to poke at.
And if you're a Jehovah'sWitness here, sorry, get out.
But yeah, but this belief inhell, you know?
(06:05):
I grew up, uh, in a Christianhome, pastor's home and I've
heard a lot of preaching and alot of teaching, even in people
who, I would say, believebiblically and correctly.
But many times our terminology,I've noticed, is wrong.
Let me give you an example.
(06:25):
How many times have I heardpreachers stand behind a pulpit
and say something along thelines of if you don't get saved
and you reject Christ, you willdie and go to hell forever?
Well, is that actually accurate?
I'm going to present to youtonight?
(06:45):
No, it's not.
No one will be in hell forever.
No one will be in hell forever.
We've already piqued yourinterest here tonight.
Some of you are alreadyscrambling and hopefully not
leaving nasty comments in thecomment section until you hear
us out, because the truth of thematter is, the Bible teaches
(07:08):
that and we don't want you totake our word for it.
We want you to hear us out.
Do like the Bereans did in Acts17, 11.
And go to your Bible and figureout if what we're telling you
is correct.
But I believe that your conceptof hell, the lake of fire, is
going to be challenged tonight.
(07:29):
There's some deeply heldbeliefs and preconceived notions
, traditions of men that havebeen taught.
We're going to poke holes inthings like what's the word I'm
looking for, the Catholics, thepurgatory belief.
We're going to look at that andwe're actually not going to
(07:49):
look at a whole lot of scripture, because there are none, but
we're going to look at thesedifferent viewpoints and we're
going to see what the Bibleactually says, what it says,
what it doesn't say, and we wantyou to align your belief system
and your theology with what theBible says.
Yeah, yeah, what do you thinkmost people believe about hell?
Their concept of hell?
Matt (08:11):
I mean most people's concept of hell is, you know,
this burning place with thedevil and a pitchfork, and
that's it, that's hell.
Brandon (08:24):
So that's a great point .
We think that the devil isthere.
He's got a pitchfork, he's gota pointy tail and he's red and
he's tormenting people.
Um, yeah, uh.
What if I were to tell you that?
Uh, there's actually, you know,no scripture to back that up?
I can actually show you morescripture that Satan actually
(08:48):
goes back and forth to heavenrather than hell.
Matt (08:53):
In fact, I can't even think of one where he goes to
hell he goes to and throw up anddown in the earth, up and down
and in the earth.
So there is that one Right youcould draw that, you could.
Is that one right you coulddraw that?
Yeah, you, you could stretchthat one out to that.
But, yeah, you know, the onlyplace we know for sure that he
ends up is at the end ofeternity or the beginning of
(09:17):
eternity.
The end of the millennium end ofthe millennium he gets thrown
into like fire.
Yeah, which uses differentwords than hell, even in the
Greek it does.
Brandon (09:27):
It does.
So what we want to do is wedon't want to, we want to just
kind of whet your appetite here.
And what we're going to dotonight is we're going to
introduce the concept of hellfrom a biblical lens.
And you know, do people die whoreject Christ and go to hell
forever?
We're going to answer thatquestion what's the difference
in hell and the lake of fire?
You?
Matt (09:46):
know, I think part of it ranges from our translations.
That's a great point.
Part of it is the translations.
Look, Go ahead Well don't.
Brandon (10:00):
Let me just say this, and this is and maybe we'll do
an episode or probably have todo a series on this translation
processes.
I use a King James Version 90%of the time.
Matt just told me here tonighthe's got an NIV that he's going
to be reading out of.
He uses a King James Version aswell.
I use a King James Versionbecause I've grown up with it.
(10:21):
I love it, I adore it.
I memorize my up with it.
I love it, I adore it.
I memorize my scriptures in it.
It is a faithful word for wordtranslation of the Greek and
Hebrew and the Aramaic into thelanguage that I speak, which is
English.
But we have to understand andif you are going to be a true
Bible student, you have got tobecome acclimated at least on
(10:45):
the basics of Greek and Hebrewand Aramaic and looking up words
.
And the wonderful thing is,with technology, you can take
your phone.
You can have an app on yourphone that allows you to look up
very quickly.
I have one on there and it'scalled eSword.
I think it's either free or itcosts $1.99 or something like
(11:07):
that.
You can download it.
When I'm reading scriptures, Ican click on the word next to it
.
It'll tell me the Greek word,it'll give me the reference
number or the Hebrew word, thereference number, and it'll give
me every place in the Biblethat that word's used.
We have got to becomeacclimated with the Greek and
the Hebrew words to be able tounderstand our Bible correctly.
And that leads me into as wewade out into the water here on
(11:31):
the topic of hell and the lakeof fire tonight.
There are different terms thatwe are referenced as hell in the
Bible, well, four Well you'retalking about the Hebrew.
(11:55):
Well, yeah, there are, and helpme make sure that I remember all
these.
So there's obviously hell,translated hell, in the New
Testament from the Greek, theGreek word.
Our English word is hell, theGreek word.
The first one that you'reprobably familiar with is the
word Hades H-A-D-E-S.
(12:15):
Okay, and Hades is theequivalent of our English word,
hell.
So hell equals Hades.
Okay, there's another word, andwe're going to show you some
scriptures to back this up herein just a moment but there's
another word in the Hebrew thatis the Hebrew equivalent of the
Greek word.
So there's Hades in the Greekand the word Sheol, S-H-E-O-L is
(12:41):
the Hebrew equivalent, talkingabout the same place.
So we're going to see that.
We're going to dive into that.
Give us the other two.
Matt (12:48):
Matt.
Okay, the other two, you haveGehenna.
Okay, that's translated oftenas hell.
Brandon (12:55):
Actually, I think it's the most.
More times in the King Jamesit's translated hell, gehenna
than any other word.
Gehenna, that is G-E-H-E-N-N-A,h-e-n-n-a, gehenna.
So we have Hades, we haveGehenna in the Greek.
Those two are Greek and we haveSheol in the Hebrew.
And then the last one is, sayit again, tartarus, tartarus,
(13:18):
which is T-A-R-T-A-R-U-STartarus.
Okay, and how many times is itused in the Bible?
I don't know.
Matt (13:27):
I didn't count it, just one Just one, just one, in 2
Peter.
Brandon (13:30):
We're going to look at that Tartarus, but in our
English Bible it is translatedhell.
Okay, so we're going to look atthese.
There's also some terms thatwe're going to look at over the
next couple episodes, called thelake of fire, okay, uh, there's
a couple other terms that Iwant to introduce as well, Three
other terms that are very uh.
(13:51):
They are talking about the samething, although it doesn't.
It talks about a place ofeverlasting fire.
That is one uh, uh phrasethat's using the King James.
Then there's another one calledeverlasting punishment.
Okay, everlasting fire,everlasting punishment.
And then we're going to look atone that is kind of shrouded in
mystery and people oftenmisconstrue it and, I believe,
(14:14):
misapply it in its theologicalmeaning, and that is outer
darkness, outer darkness.
So we're going to look at theseterms hell, lake of fire,
tartarus, sheol, everlastingfire, everlasting punishment,
outer darkness.
We're going to look at allthese.
What in the world does allthese mean, and are they all the
same?
Do we just use theminterchangeably?
The short answer is no, andwe're going to explain all of
(14:38):
them.
Matt (14:38):
Most people do use them interchangeably, though.
Brandon (14:41):
That's the sad part.
That leads to some bad theology.
Bad theology, I figured theword Tartarus is used one time,
so why don't we just tee up thatone and let's look at 2 Peter 2
, verse 4.
Matt, if you can read that one,then I want to show you what's
(15:04):
going on here and this scriptureis talking about.
Well, let's just read it andwe'll jump in.
This is the word Tartarus.
It's the only time that it'sused in the whole Bible, 2 Peter
, chapter number two, versenumber four.
Matt (15:16):
Okay, for God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast
them down to hell and deliveredthem into chains of darkness to
be reserved unto judgment okay,so god spared not the angels
that sinned, but cast them downto hell, and they're in chains
of darkness.
Brandon (15:34):
Is that what it said?
The chains of darkness ofdarkness reserved unto judgment.
Unto judgment now, um, if you'renew to the bible, what in the
heck's going on here?
Right, we'll just throw youright in the deep end here this
is talking about.
If you studied out 2 Peter andif you study two or three other
passages in the New Testament,it references this there was an
(15:58):
episode that we refer to as theGenesis 6 episode.
Okay, genesis, chapter 6, somecrazy stuff happened that
warrants its own series ofpodcast episodes and really
honestly changed the trajectoryof the entire Bible.
Okay, the entire story, and Ithink that it's you know.
(16:22):
Stuff like this is still goingon today.
Genesis, chapter 6, I just wantto read you what happened,
because 2 Peter tells us thatthere was angels that sinned
against God, and God put them inthe English word is translated
hell, but it's.
He put them in Tartarus, orTarturo is the Greek, the root
word of the word.
(16:42):
So he put them in a placecalled Tartarus.
What in the world is that?
Okay?
Matt (16:46):
Yeah, and it really changed the whole trajectory,
the whole focus of the Bible.
Oh yeah, it did.
Brandon (16:53):
Results from this Most.
The traditional view over thelast couple hundred years is
that Genesis 6, well, let mejust read it, verse number one.
It says and it came to passwhen men began to multiply on
the face of the earth anddaughters were born unto them.
This is before the flood, thatthe sons of God saw the
daughters of men, that they werefair and they took them wives
(17:16):
of all which they chose.
And the Lord said my spiritshall not always strive with man
for that.
He is also flesh, yet his daysshall be 120 years.
Now watch this verse four.
There were giants in the earthin those days and also after
that, when the sons of God camein unto the daughters of men and
they bear children to them, thesame became mighty men which
(17:40):
were of old men of renown.
This is what we're talkingabout when we talk about the
Genesis 6 episode.
Okay, so here's what you have,and long story short.
The sons of God come into thedaughters of men and they have
children with them.
These children become giants,men of renown, gibberim in the
Hebrew.
Okay, the New Testament tells usin 2 Peter that back in the
(18:03):
time of Noah.
It tells us in 2 Peter thatback in the time of Noah, angels
sinned against God, or actuallyI should say back before the
flood.
Angels sinned against God andthey were chained up in Tartarus
.
So this is the episode.
It's the only thing in theBible that comes close to being
(18:23):
what 2 Peter is describing.
It is the episode where thesons of God and if you study
that out in the Old Testament,the sons of God is always
translated the B'nai Elohim inthe Hebrew and it means the
angels of God, okay.
One of the traditional views isthat this is the sons of Seth.
It's the good line of Sethversus the bad line of Cain.
The sons of God and thedaughters of men.
(18:44):
That is completely provable.
I'm using a Schofield referenceBible here and he is completely
wrong on this because he saysthat it's the godly line of Seth
versus the worldly line of Cain.
It's not right.
The Old Testament proves.
You can go to the book of Joband prove it.
Sons of God were angels.
So angels rebelled against Godprior to the flood.
(19:06):
They bred with women, okay, andproduced an offspring that were
giants.
They were men of renown, andGod took the fathers of these
giants and chained them up.
2 Peter says in a place calledTartarus okay, which is, in our
Bible, translated hell okay.
(19:28):
So that's pretty crazy.
So to this day, we have noreason to believe that these
angels have ever been let out ofhell or Tartarus, which is the
Greek word.
There is a special, and if youlook up the word Tartarus, it is
a special.
I, if you look up the wordTartarus, it is a special.
I'll say it like this it's aspecial compartment inside of a
(19:52):
place that we're about todiscover called hell.
Tartarus okay, it's its ownlocality inside of a greater
locality called hell.
So it's a subcompartment ofhell.
Matt (20:06):
Does that make sense does it does.
And if you research, you knowwe don't want to get into the
greek mythos type stuff here,but if you research the greek
mythology around hades, right,and what it was, what they
thought, what they believed, thecontext of the person in the
first century that would bereading this or writing this,
(20:30):
these books in the New Testament, right.
If you get into their thoughtsand their ideas of hell, right,
there's multiple compartments.
Brandon (20:41):
Multiple compartments to a place called hell.
Okay, so the first one, thefirst term that we're going to
throw at you if you're writingnotes.
Somebody told me the other daythey write a couple of pages of
notes per podcast episode.
We thank you for listening andpaying that close of attention.
There's a place called Tartarus.
What do we know about Tartarus?
Really, the only thing we knowis that there are angels who
(21:05):
sinned against God and they arechained up there and they're
reserved unto the judgment,which has not happened yet.
That is Tartarus.
So that is one of the wordstranslated hell in your New
Testament.
2 Peter 2, verse 4.
I want to go to, I want to showyou Acts, chapter number 2.
I want to show you this becauseI want to introduce the word
(21:26):
Hades and I want to introducethe word Sheol here, and I want
you to see that they aresynonymous the Old Testament
Hebrew word Sheol and the NewTestament word for hell, which
is Hades.
Okay, acts, chapter two, versenumber 27.
The Bible says in Acts, chaptertwo this is Peter's sermon on
(21:49):
the day of Pentecost.
He says because thou wilt notleave my soul in hell, neither
wilt thou suffer thine holy oneto see corruption.
He is describing David in theOld Testament, in the book of
Psalms, prophesying the Messiahcoming, and Peter is preaching
on the day of Pentecost and hereads those words.
(22:09):
We translate them, the wordsthat Peter spoke on the day of
Pentecost, into our English fromGreek.
And it is the word hell whichis the word Hades.
Okay, so the Greek wordtranslated in Acts, chapter two
is actually quoting Psalm,chapter 16.
Okay, psalm chapter 16, versenumber 10.
(22:30):
And it is a verbatim quote fromPsalm 16, where David is
prophesying the coming Messiahand Peter quotes him on the day
of Pentecost.
And let's read Psalm 16, versenumber 10.
Matt (22:44):
Okay, for thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither
wilt thou suffer thine holy oneto see corruption.
Brandon (22:51):
So thou wilt not leave my soul in hell or suffer thine
holy one to see corruption.
It is almost a word-for-wordquotation that Peter used on the
day of Pentecost, quoting Psalm16.
Okay, so Peter uses the wordHades, all right.
David used the word Sheol.
These are synonyms, meaning thesame place, okay.
(23:11):
So we looked at Tartarus.
Now I want to introduce to youthe word Hades, and when you
think Hades, I want you to thinkNew Testament Greek.
When you hear the word Sheol, Iwant you to think the same
place, but Old Testament Hebrew.
Okay, that's what you need toknow.
Sheol and Hades are the sameplace.
(23:32):
Hades and Sheol are the sameplace.
Now I want to show you thismysterious place and I want to
read to you a little story fromNumbers, chapter number 16.
There was some folks who wererelated.
There was a guy named Korah,k-o-r-a-h, and they did some bad
(23:53):
things.
You can read the whole accountin Numbers, chapter number 16,
but when you get down to versenumber 28, god is going to
pronounce judgment on Korah andhe uses Moses to do this.
And watch what he says in versenumber 28.
Just listen closely.
And Moses said hereby you shallknow that the Lord hath sent me
(24:13):
to do all these works, for Ihave not done them of mine own
mind.
If these men die the commondeath of all men, or if they be
visited after the visitation ofall men die the common death of
all men, or if they be visitedafter the visitation of all men,
then the Lord hath not sent me.
But if the Lord make a newthing, watch this and the earth
open her mouth and swallow themup with all that appertain unto
(24:36):
them and they go down quick intothe pit, notice that.
Then they shall understand thatthese men have provoked the
Lord.
So basically, moses is sayinglook, I speak on behalf of God.
You guys have offended God andI'm going to tell you what could
happen to you.
And what I think is going tohappen to you is the earth is
(24:57):
going to open up and swallow youand everything that pertains to
you in your life down into thepit.
Now watch what happens.
And it came to pass as he hadmade an end of speaking, moses,
all these words that the groundclave asunder, that was under
them, or opened up, and theearth opened her mouth and
(25:17):
swallowed them up and theirhouses and all the men that
appertained unto Korah and alltheir goods.
They and all that appertainedto them went down watch this
went down alive into the pit andthe earth closed upon them and
(25:38):
they perished from among thecongregation.
All Israel that were roundabout them fled at the cry of
them, for they said lest theearth swallow us up also.
So I want you to think aboutthis for a second, because some
of you may have never read thatstory and never heard it.
Moses pronounces judgmentcoming from God on the Korah and
(26:00):
those that were associated withhim and all that pertained to
them, these men, okay, the Biblesays the earth opened up and
swallowed them and they wentdown alive into the pit.
Guess what?
The word pit?
There is the word Sheol,s-h-e-o-l.
Sheol, which is the same wordin Greek in the New Testament
(26:24):
hell or Hades.
Okay.
So that story shines a lot ofcontext on the subject of hell,
hades, sheol.
Okay, we learned somethingright here, okay?
So if you're a note taker,write this down the earth opened
(26:46):
up and people went down aliveinto the pit, or down alive into
Sheol, or to Hades or to hell.
These are all the same term.
Hell and Hades and Sheol sameterm.
They went down alive into thepit, but the earth opened up and
took them down into the pit.
So here we learn something thatyou're going to see in these
(27:08):
next few verses, that we'regoing to show you where hell is.
Hell is in this earth that welive on right now.
Hell is on earth.
Hell is on earth.
It's in the earth.
The earth opened up andswallowed them down into Sheol
(27:31):
or the pit or Hades, hell,whichever term you're using,
whether you're speaking Greek orHebrew.
Matt (27:37):
And that would make sense with Satan's explanation to God
in Job, where he says he wasgoing to and throw and in the
earth Up and down, in the earthRight and in the earth.
That's.
Brandon (27:53):
And there's also you hear a lot.
You brought up Greek mythologyand you brought up all these
kind of things.
And I know we don't worshipobviously we don't worship gods
of Greek mythos and things likethat but a lot of mythology.
What you're going to find is alot of legends when it comes to
what we referenced a minute ago,genesis 6, giants, what they
(28:18):
call gods, the ancient gods andthings like that are actually on
some truth but are misconstruedand the bad guys in God's story
become the good guys in theirreligions.
Okay, so there's a lot ofthings like that, but I want you
(28:40):
to understand.
You know there's a lot of talkof the underworld and things
like that.
You brought up the scripturesthat talk about Satan going to
and fro up and down in the earth.
There's also I think it'sRevelation 5, when people, every
creature, says I think worthyis the lamb, and it's that scene
in heaven where Jesus takes theseven sealed book and it says
(29:02):
every creature will sing hispraise I'm paraphrasing every
creature in the earth and underthe earth and it, and there's
that kind of language allthroughout scripture there's in
the earth, on the earth, inheaven, under the earth, there
is a uh, there is a this.
We want to introduce thisconcept to you because it is
biblical.
There is a place, and we'regoing to show you here in a
(29:25):
second it's in the center ofthis earth.
Yeah, even in the Greek mythosit's in the center of the earth,
right, and it's called hell, orit's called Hades in the Greek
or in the Hebrew, sheol, sheoland even referenced, as in the
King James, as the pit, the pit.
Okay, so hopefully your head isnot spinning yet, but we just
(29:48):
want to introduce this to youand we want you to understand
this.
The Bible says several thingsabout this and I just want to
cast some light on it as well.
Psalm chapter number nine.
Let's look at a couple ofpsalms, because it references
this place called Sheol in theHebrew, which is what we call
hell, and watch what it says inPsalm chapter 9, verse 17.
Matt (30:10):
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations
that forget God, okay.
Brandon (30:16):
So the wicked shall be turned into hell.
And the Hebrew word there iswhat Sheol, it is the word Sheol
.
The Hebrew word there is whatSheol, it is the word Sheol.
It is the same word fromNumbers, chapter 16,.
The sons of Korah and all thoseappertained to him taken down
alive into the pit the earthopened up and swallowed them.
And the Bible says that wickednations, the wicked and the
(30:37):
nations that forget God, will bethrown into hell and taken to
hell.
Psalm, chapter 16, verse number10, says this for thou will not
leave my soul in hell this isthe one we looked at a second
ago that Peter quotes on the dayof Pentecost, referencing
David's prophecy about theMessiah Okay, and what we find
(30:59):
out is that the father will notleave the Messiah, his soul, in
Sheol.
Okay, he will not allow hisHoly One capitalized to see
corruption.
This is a direct prophecy ofthe death, burial and
(31:20):
resurrection of Jesus and then,prior to the resurrection,
between the death and theresurrection, jesus' work and
we're going to see this in aminute of going.
Do you know this?
Jesus went to hell.
Matt (31:33):
Yeah, I was going to ask if we were going to hit that.
Jesus went to hell.
Brandon (31:39):
But Psalm 16 says thou wilt not leave my soul in hell
or suffer your Holy One to seecorruption.
So we're going to see that Alittle teaser there.
We'll get there in a fewminutes.
We're going to look at thatpretty in depth.
Matt (31:54):
What part of hell did he go to?
Well, we'll get there.
Brandon (31:56):
Okay, yeah, we'll get there.
There's a whole neighborhooddown there, apparently.
Let me read that one real quick.
There's a whole neighborhooddown there, apparently.
Let me read that one real quick.
And I want to show you this.
I just want to establish thatthese are Sheol Hades.
It's in the center of the earthand it's an actual place that
people can go to.
In Proverbs 9, the writer ofProverbs is warning the young
(32:19):
man, void of wisdom, about thefoolish woman, the loose woman,
and he says in verse number 17that stolen waters are sweet and
bread eaten in secret ispleasant, but the simple one.
But he knoweth not that thedead are there and that her
(32:43):
guests are in the depths of hell.
So if you follow sin and youfollow this woman, you're going
to end up in hell.
Her guests are in the depths ofSheol.
Okay, so there's all kinds ofreferences all throughout the
Old Testament, new Testament, toSheol in the Old Testament,
hades in the New Testament, andof course, we call it hell in
(33:04):
our English language.
Okay, so you got anything toadd there before we go on?
No, okay, there's loads ofreferences to it.
There are.
So let's look at Matthew 16.
Do you have that one?
Matt (33:20):
I do Okay.
16 and 18.
Matthew 16 and 18.
Matthew 16 and 18.
And I say unto thee thou artPeter, and upon this rock I will
build my church, and the gatesof hell shall not prevail
against it.
Brandon (33:33):
Okay, very famous passage Peter Jesus'
proclamation You're Peter, uponthis rock, I'll build my church
and the gates of hell shall notprevail against it.
Okay, and we know that theactual translations I'll build
my church and the gates of hellshall not prevail against it.
Okay, and we know that theactual translation is the gates
of hell will not prevent it,because a gate is not an
offensive weapon to prevail onanything.
(33:54):
The gate of hell cannot preventit.
Jesus is basically declaring inthe most pagan area, caesarea,
philippi, that I'm going tobuild my church and I'm coming
and advancing toward hell.
There's nothing you can do toprevent me from advancing my
church.
Okay, and so what I want you tounderstand is that the gates of
(34:17):
hell or the gates of Hadescannot hold back the church,
okay, so what have we seenalready?
We have seen that there is aplace called Sheol or hell,
hades, depending on if you'rereading Greek or Hebrew.
It is in the center of theearth.
We also saw in the first wordthat we looked at Tartarus, that
(34:40):
Tartarus is a holding area.
Okay, it is a place whereangels are chained up that
sinned against God in Genesis,chapter 6, and it seems to be
associated with Sheol and Hadesand it seems to be and we're
going to see this in a littlewhile a compartment, if you will
(35:01):
, of hell or of Sheol.
So you have Sheol and then youhave a compartment it you will
of hell or of Sheol.
So you have Sheol and then youhave a compartment.
It's kind of like your houseand you have a closet in your
house.
Okay, it's all your house, butthere's a separate compartment
that you put your pantry orcloset or whatever.
Tartarus is a separatecompartment of hell, specific to
(35:23):
where God put the angelswaiting for judgment.
Okay, so now, as we keep goingon in this concept of hell, I
want to show you probably themost famous story of hell in all
the Bible, and it's the storyof the rich man and Lazarus.
(35:45):
And I want to say somethingreal quick here.
Okay, a lot of people, a lot ofmodern-day preachers and
teachers, they deny theexistence of hell or the lake of
fire, and they will say youknow, the only evidence you have
is Luke, chapter 16, whereJesus said and they'll use this
(36:06):
word, they'll say the parable ofthe rich man and Lazarus.
Let me point this out to you.
Okay, when Jesus teaches in thegospels and uses parables.
He does not use people'sspecific names.
Okay, he uses, for illustrativepurposes, parables which are
earthly stories that haveheavenly meanings.
(36:29):
The story that we're about totell you in Luke 16 is not a
parable.
It is actually involved a man,a beggar named Lazarus, and a
rich man that his name is notgiven.
But it is not.
It is a specific, real storybecause we have Lazarus talking,
we have the rich man, we haveAbraham actually conversing in
(36:50):
this story, the real Abraham.
We get a glimpse into hisafterlife and I want you to
realize this is somewhat 1,500years after Abraham's death.
This story occurs.
Okay, I mean, this isfascinating stuff.
Let's go to Luke, chapternumber 16.
Luke 16, this is a.
If you've ever heard a sermonpreached in a traditional
(37:12):
evangelical church, you probably.
It was probably based on Luke,chapter 16.
And this is.
You know, a lot of people pushback in the modern church and
say, well, you shouldn't preachthis story as literal.
A lot of people push back inthe modern church and say, well,
you shouldn't preach this storyas literal.
It is literal, it's not aparable.
And what you say?
It scares people.
Well, hell is real.
Matt (37:30):
And it probably should scare people.
A healthy fear of the Lord iscompletely biblical.
Brandon (37:38):
Well, I thank God that I was taught about hell and I
was taught about the afterlife.
And you know what?
I'm not going to stand here andtell you that the reason that I
trusted Christ when I was sevenyears old wasn't partly due to
being afraid that I would dieand go to hell.
Okay, and there ain't nothingwrong with that.
I've heard people say well, youknow, fear is not a good basis
to get saved.
Let me say this Anything is agood basis to get saved.
(38:01):
If you're lost, get saved,trust Christ.
Okay.
Well, I just got saved becauseI didn't want to go to hell.
Well, that's a great startingpoint.
Whatever it is, get saved,trust Christ.
Luke, chapter 16, let's get intoit.
Verse number 19,.
There was a certain rich manwhich was clothed in purple and
(38:23):
fine linen and fared sumptuouslyevery day, and there was a
certain beggar named Lazaruswhich was laid at his gate, full
of sores and desiring to be fedwith the crumbs which fell from
the rich man's table.
Moreover, the dogs came andlicked his sores and it came to
pass that the beggar died noticethis and was carried by the
(38:43):
angels into watch this Abraham'sbosom.
Now, that's weird phraseology,right there?
Right?
So Lazarus dies and was carriedinto Abraham's bosom Notice
(39:04):
this, the rich manments andseeth Abraham afar off and
Lazarus in his bosom.
Okay, so let's not just speedthrough this.
We have a beggar named Lazarus,we have a rich man who is
unnamed, is unnamed, and then wehave Abraham mentioned here
because when the beggar dies, heis carried, the Bible says, by
(39:35):
the angels into Abraham's bosom.
Okay, so there's a place herecalled Abraham's bosom and
that's where the beggar went.
Then we have the rich man dyingalso and the Bible says and in
hell and the word there is Hades.
And in Hades he lifted up hiseyes, being in torment, and he
sees Abraham alive there, and hesees Lazarus, the beggar that
(40:01):
he knew back from his earthlylife, there Now.
So this is a fascinating scenewhere we get a glimpse into what
is happening after three deadmen pass from this earth.
We have Abraham, who's seenalive, you're about to see.
(40:21):
We have the beggar, lazarus,who's seen alive, and we have
this rich man who lifts up thatverse scares you to death.
And in hell he lifted up hiseyes, he died on this planet and
he was awake and conscious inanother world called another
(40:41):
place for lack of a better term,called Hades or Sheol in the
Hebrew, or hell.
And in hell he lifted up hiseyes and notice being in
torments.
Okay, this is not a parable,guys.
This is specific names,specific places, proper names.
(41:03):
This is not a parable, nomatter what Joel Osteen tells
you, okay, oh, there's no hell,there's no evidence of it.
All right, he knows the truth.
He just doesn't want to offendhis liberal listeners or get on
TV and, you know, affect hisbottom line.
And hey, we got to tell thepeople the truth.
There is a hell.
(41:24):
The Bible talks a ton about it.
I mean, people were actuallyswallowed up and went down alive
into this place called Sheol,or hell or Hades, and here these
guys die.
Now let's read on and find outwhat happens.
And he cried and said FatherAbraham, have mercy on me and
(41:44):
send Lazarus that he may dip thetip of his finger in water and
cool my tongue, for I amtormented in this flame.
So here we have this rich mancrying out to Abraham.
He sees Abraham, the Bible saysafar off, and he cries out and
he says I know Lazarus overthere.
Send Lazarus and let him diphis finger in water and just
(42:06):
drip it on my tongue because I'mtormented in this flame.
So here we see hell, hades, realplace, torment, fire.
This guy's crying out.
It's horrible description.
But watch what Abraham says inverse 25.
But Abraham said Son, rememberthat thou in thy lifetime
(42:27):
receivest thy good things andlikewise Lazarus the evil things
, but now he is comforted andthou art tormented.
Now notice this, because here'sthe rich man.
Where are they at?
It says in hell.
He lifted up his eyes but hecan see Lazarus and he can see
Abraham.
And it says in verse number 25that Lazarus is comforted where
(42:53):
he's at and the rich man is not,he's tormented.
So here we see one place wherethe rich man is, but he's
looking over into a place whereLazarus is being comforted and
he's being tormented.
So we see a multifaceted placethat has different layers.
We've already seen Tartarus,where angels.
(43:15):
It's like a holding area, aseparate compartment, a closet,
if you will, a separate area ofhell.
And here we see two moreseparate areas of hell one place
of torment and one place calledAbraham's bosom, a place of
comfort.
Okay, so I want you to see this.
I mean it's a fascinating storyin language, verse 26,.
(43:38):
It says and beside all this,between us.
This is Abraham talking andbeside all this, between us and
you, there is a great gulf fixed, so they which would pass from
hence to you cannot, neither canthey pass to us that would come
(43:58):
from thence.
So, in other words, there is agreat gulf, there is a division,
a divider, and Abraham tellsthe rich man who's hollering
across this divide.
To him, he says we can't cometo you and you can't come to us.
Matt (44:13):
Scary, yeah, and just think about the torture of that.
You're there in torment and youcan look across at what you
missed out on, but you can't getthere and you can't get there.
Brandon (44:27):
Oh my goodness, that gives me chills.
Thinking about that.
That is such a.
That in and of itself istorment.
Yeah, not counting the flames,not counting the flames, and
flames are mentioned.
Hell is a place of fire.
Yeah, not counting the flames,not counting the flames, and
flames are mentioned.
Hell is a place of fire.
Yeah, oh my goodness.
Let's read on Verse 27.
Then he said I pray thee,therefore, father.
(44:49):
So now the rich man who findsout he can't, nobody can get to
him.
He says but if one went untothem from the dead, they will
(45:16):
repent.
And he said unto them if theyhear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded.
Though one rose from the dead.
Think about that.
That's almost a prophecy.
Yeah, because the Jewish peopleas a whole have not received
the one who was raised from thedead.
Why?
Because they don't believeMoses and the prophets.
(45:36):
If they believe the prophets,like Jeremiah, isaiah, daniel,
they'd look at the propheciesand receive Christ.
Oh my goodness, this is aprofound story.
Yeah, but what are we seeing?
What have we learned aboutSheol and Hades?
It is in the center of theearth.
It is a real place.
There's a division, there'smultiple compartments.
(45:59):
There seems to be from what theBible is saying.
There is a good section to thisarea, or a place of comfort, if
you will, and then there is aplace of torture and a place of
torment and crying out and fire.
(46:22):
Yeah, oh, my goodness, isn'tthis crazy?
Yeah.
Matt (46:27):
And it lines up with the Greek thinking of the day as
well.
Okay, if you look at the Greekmythologies and their stories,
you know there are severalstories where the hero in the
story is going into Hades, takesthe boat ride, pays the boatman
, goes into Hades to retrieve aloved one from Hades Okay, right
(46:53):
, to retrieve someone from there, to retrieve someone from there
.
And in all of those storiesthey're queued up and people are
facing a certain I can'tremember what the name of this,
whatever minor god it is, butyou have to have something to
pay him.
And if you pay him and havesomething to pay him, you go to
(47:16):
the good side of Hades, right?
If you don't, you go to thegood side of Hades, right.
If you don't, you go to the badside of Hades.
Brandon (47:21):
So, let's be real clear .
These are ancient beliefs thatare kind of grounded on a little
bit of truth.
But obviously you cannot payyour way in and out of hell, or
the rich man would have done itI'm sure he would have tried to
do that but what we do see isthat there is a hell and there
(47:43):
are two sides to it, or there'sa great gulf dividing the place
of torment from the place ofcomfort.
And then we also know of athird compartment called
Tartarus, which is translated ashell, where the angels are as
well.
So it's fascinating.
And then let's shine a littlebit more light on this.
(48:05):
Luke, chapter number 23,.
Matt, if you got that versenumber 43.
Let me set this up.
Jesus is on the cross.
Jesus is crucified between twothieves who are dying for their
own sin.
Jesus obviously is dying forour sin, and a lot of things
happen on the cross.
But one of the thieves actuallychooses to believe in Jesus and
(48:27):
he asks him to remember himwhen thou comest into thy
kingdom.
Okay, he said remember me.
He wanted to be saved.
He believed that Jesus was theSon of God, was dying for the
sin of the world.
He said remember me.
He wanted to be saved.
He believed that Jesus was theson of God, was dying for the
sin of the world.
He believed in Jesus in thatmoment.
Matt (48:45):
And read verse number 43 and find out what Jesus said to
him, and Jesus said unto himverily, I say unto thee, today,
shalt thou be with me inparadise, okay.
So I want you to think aboutthis, for a second.
Brandon (48:56):
Shalt thou be with me in paradise?
Okay?
So I want you to think aboutthis for a second.
So this thief says remember me.
And Jesus says today, that'svery important, today you'll be
with me in paradise.
Now, hold on, think about thisfor a second, because so many
people have never thought aboutthis.
All right, so Jesus dies on thecross.
How many days until he risesfrom the dead?
(49:18):
The Bible is very clear on thisThree days and three nights,
okay, it's the sign of theprophet Jonah.
Okay, that is why Jesus was notcrucified on Friday and rose on
Sunday morning.
It was not Good Friday.
That is a different topic for adifferent day, because you
can't get three days and threenights from Friday to Sunday.
Okay, based on the Jewishcalendar and how they judge days
(49:41):
, all right, you can't do it.
So, but regardless of all that,jesus is about to be in the
grave.
His body is going to be in thegrave in the borrowed tomb of
Joseph of Arimathea for threedays and three nights, and then,
early on the first day of theweek, he rises from the dead and
is seen for the next 40 daysalive by over 500 people.
(50:02):
Okay, but during the three days.
What happened From the time hedied on the cross?
His body was placed in thegrave, but what did Jesus say to
the rich, or to the rich man,to the thief on the cross?
He said today, today, not inthree days, you'll rise from the
dead with me and I'll, you know, go to heaven.
(50:24):
Go to heaven when I ascend.
He didn't say that.
He said today, you will be withme and notice what he said in
paradise.
In paradise, so here's what Iwant you to understand.
Okay, in paradise.
So here's what I want you tounderstand.
When Jesus died, his body wentto the grave, but we are a body,
soul and spirit.
So Jesus' soul and Jesushimself, his spirit and his
(50:51):
truth, went to paradise.
Paradise, what we're tellingyou is that Abraham's bosom from
the story from Luke 16 andparadise are the same place.
So when Jesus died and the thiefon the cross died, they went to
the good side of what we wouldcall Sheol or Hades.
(51:16):
Okay, there is a place oftorment and there is a place of
comfort.
Jesus went to that place ofcomfort.
So did the thief on the cross.
All the while, everyone who hadrejected Christ and had not
believed in him from all timewas on the bad side in torment.
(51:37):
So if you go back to Numbers,chapter number 16, and the guys
with Korah and all them who wereswallowed up and went down into
hell, they are on the bad side.
The rich man is on the bad side.
Lazarus, Abraham, jesus, at thispoint, and the thief on the
cross are all on the good side,all right.
And the thief on the cross areall on the good side, all right.
(51:59):
David, if you will, all the OldTestament saints, they are on
the paradise, abraham's bosomside of this place called Hades
or Sheol.
That's a lot to take inGoodness.
It is, it really is, it reallyis, it really is, it really is.
But what we see is I want you tonotice this because many people
(52:23):
don't realize what Jesus didJesus goes to the.
When he dies, he goes to thecenter of the earth.
Let me prove this to you fromScripture Matt.
If you got Psalm 68, 18, andI'm going to go to Ephesians,
chapter 4, 8 through 10, and Iwant you to see this and I want
(52:46):
you to just let this sink intoyour head, because a lot of this
is probably making your headspin Is there a hell?
Yes, where's it at?
It's in the center of the earth.
Okay, it's known as Sheol inthe Hebrew, hades in the Greek.
There are differentcompartments of it.
There was a place of comfortcalled Abraham's bosom, or
paradise.
There's also a place of tormentand fire and flames where the
(53:06):
rich man went.
This is the bad side of hell,and I want you to see what is
prophesied in Psalm 68, versenumber 18.
Matt (53:15):
Matt's going to read that for us, and thou hast ascended
on high, thou hast led captivitycaptive.
Thou hast received gifts formen Yea, for the rebellious.
Also the Lord God might dwellamong them.
Brandon (53:29):
Okay.
So he says that he has ascendedon high.
This is a prophecy that theMessiah is going to die and he's
going to ascend back up on high, but it says he's going to lead
captivity, captive.
Okay, very key words there.
Look at Ephesians, chapter 4,because a very similar passage
(53:50):
to that from the Old Testamentin Psalm 68 is Ephesians 4,
verse 8 through 10.
Now listen to this verse 8through 10.
Now listen to this.
Wherefore he saith this is Paultalking.
When he, jesus, ascended up onhigh, he led captivity, captive
and gave gifts unto men.
(54:10):
That is a quote from Psalm 68.
Now Paul explains what thismeans in verse number 9 and 10.
He says this now he thatascended, that means go up what
is it?
But that he also descended,that means go down first into
the lower parts of the earth.
(54:30):
He that descended is the samealso that ascended up far above
all heavens, that he might fillall things.
So what does Paul tell us?
He quotes Psalm 68 and says theMessiah is going to ascend, but
before he ascends he's going tolead captivity captive.
And Paul explains what thatmeans.
(54:52):
Before Jesus ascended back toheaven, he descended and Paul's
very clear on it into the lowerparts of the earth and led
captivity out of captivity andled them to heaven with him.
He led them out and ascendedwith them.
So who's the them that he led?
(55:14):
Who's the captives that he ledout of captivity that he led?
Who's the captives that he ledout of captivity?
Here's what the Bible teaches.
We believe from everything.
The Bible tells us thateveryone from the beginning of
time, every human Noah, david,samuel, all these, when they
died, they went to the center ofthe earth and they were held in
(55:37):
the good part, where Abrahamwas, where Lazarus went paradise
, or Abraham's bosom, okay, andthey went there.
And when Jesus died on thecross, he had defeated death,
defeated hell, defeated sin, andhis body was placed in the
grave, but he, his soul, went toHades or Sheol, and he led all
(56:02):
of those people out of thattemporary holding area, okay,
and he led them to heaven onhigh.
That's what the Bible teaches.
He led captivity, captive.
Fascinating thoughts, matt Yep.
Fascinating thoughts, it is.
Matt (56:20):
So literally went in and took the good people out,
emptied it, the saved, thesaints, emptied the good side of
Sheol or Hades, emptied it outto take them to heaven.
Brandon (56:40):
So yeah, absolutely so.
There's an think about thisright now.
There is hell, has thetorturous side, the fire side,
but then it also has theAbraham's bosom and the paradise
side.
But guess what?
Nobody's in that place now.
Nobody's in the good side.
(57:00):
Why?
Because at Jesus's resurrectionor, I'm sorry, at Jesus's death
, he went to hell and led all ofthose captives, or those who
were kept there, out of thereand led them to heaven.
And then the Bible says nowPaul's clear about this that
when we die now, we are absentfrom this body, but we are
present with the Lord.
We don't go to the center ofthe earth, Our souls don't.
(57:24):
Why?
Because Jesus has alreadydefeated sin and death in the
grave and he's emptied that out.
Now we go directly to meet Godin heaven.
To be absent from the body isto be present with the Lord.
So here's what I want you tothink about as we close this
episode.
I want you to think about thisRight now there is an empty side
(57:45):
or an empty compartment that inthe past has been referred to
as Abraham's bosom or paradise,and it is in the center of the
earth.
And it is empty now becausethere are no saints that are
left there.
Okay, but I want you to thinkabout this too there's also a
full side.
There's also a full side thathas gotten bigger and bigger,
(58:09):
and the Bible says that hellhath enlarged herself because
everyone who rejects Christ.
Right now, if you die, theBible says you're like that rich
man, and in hell you will liftup your eyes being in torments.
There's nobody over there toconverse with.
Now that good side, thecomforting side, has been
(58:30):
emptied out.
But hell is very real.
One of the saddest thoughtsthat you can think about in
reading scripture is that thatrich man who died a couple
thousand years ago is stillthere.
He's still there.
He's gotten no comfort, he'sstill in torment.
He's still in the flames.
What we want you to see tonightis that hell is real.
(58:54):
It is in the center of thisearth.
Now, in the next episode, whatwe're going to talk about is
that hell is not eternal.
That is not where people whoreject Christ will be forever.
There's a different place andit's called the lake of fire and
they are not the same.
Okay, but I just want tocaution you right now.
If you died today withoutChrist, you are destined to go
(59:16):
to hell.
You will go to hell, and thatis a horrible, horrible thought
I don't want.
Destined to go to hell, youwill go to hell, yeah, and that
is a horrible, horrible thought.
I don't want anyone to go tohell.
I don't want anyone to beseparated from God.
I don't want anybody to be inthe flames of hell and I am not
going to stand here as apreacher of the Bible and tell
you oh, don't worry about it,it's all metaphorical, it's all
symbolic.
No, it is very real and youneed to trust Christ and realize
(59:39):
that the reason he died was soyou don't have to experience
that place.
Matt (59:44):
Yes, and on this subject of the portions of hell and the
two different pieces, you've gotthe Catholic purgatory Right.
Okay, their belief in that, andthat also lines up with all the
Greek mythos of that holdingplace where you are prayed out
(01:00:07):
of or pay the priest to pray youout of, etc.
But there are other religions,such as the Mormons.
They believe something kind ofsimilar.
That's one of the reasons whythey do all their genetic
research, because you canactually go and do good deeds to
(01:00:32):
redeem one of your ancestorsOkay, right, and they're
redeeming them from that holdingplace they're redeeming them
from that holding place which isthere's no bible.
Brandon (01:00:47):
No bible to back that up, back that up and uh, so that
would be.
That would be false.
It's probably where, and Idon't know, um, I don't want to
say this, uh for sure, but it'sprobably where the catholics I
mean they pray for the dead yeah, and there's.
Matt (01:01:01):
You've also got to remember that, uh, they have 88
books right that they pull fromright.
Brandon (01:01:08):
No, yeah, they pull from a lot more.
Uh, that's uh, yeah, so anyway,we won't, we won't open that up
, but this is fascinatingconversation.
We're going to pick up rightthere next time, on the next
episode, and we just want to.
This is very real and we wantit to be very sobering.
Yes, but we're going to getinto.
The next word that we're goingto look at is Gehenna.
(01:01:30):
We're going to look at the lakeof fire.
We're going to look at eternalpunishment and everlasting fire.
So join us next time.
Bible Says Podcast.
I'm Brandon and I'm Matt.
It's Matt.
We'll see you later and thanksfor joining in.
Share and help us get the wordout about the podcast.
We'll see you next time.
The Bible says podcast.
What does the Bible say ?
The Bible says the Bible sayspodcast.
All right guys, welcome in Matt.
What's going on, buddy?
Oh, excited, excited.
What's going on, buddy?
Oh, excited, excited, it'sgoing to be a.
Matt (00:29):
It's going to be some fun episodes right here.
Brandon (00:30):
The next couple episodes are going to be great.
This is the Bible Says Podcast,and I'm Brandon Matheson and
this is Matt Hunter, and we arekind of excited because this is
tonight.
Sometimes we come in here andrecord one episode.
Sometimes we have done as manyas three, but we'll record a
couple tonight.
So the next couple episodesthat you'll see on the Bible
(00:52):
Says podcast are being recordedtonight, and this is our 11th
and the next one will be the12th episode.
So we're very excited aboutthat and we're looking forward.
We are growing, we're gettinggood comments, good feedback,
and we just appreciate youtuning in tonight.
(01:13):
Matt, remind us, as we alwaysdo, where you can find the Bible
Says Podcast, where you canshare it, what's our website,
things like that.
Matt (01:21):
Okay, so easiest place to find it is
thebiblesayspodcastcom.
Forward slash share has alisting of all the podcast
platforms that we're on, as wellas our social media links and
TikTok.
Brandon (01:36):
YouTube Pretty much on everything right, just about.
Just about everything, all themajor platforms we're on all the
major ones.
Good, good.
Well, make sure you'refollowing us on all of those
subscribing where you can like,share all of those kind of
things.
We're very excited about that.
Matt (01:53):
Yep and leave us loads of comments.
We like getting in the commentsplus the comments.
They help with distribution alot.
So the more comments you get,the more people that see it Good
deal.
Brandon (02:05):
I have no clue about all that stuff, but I take your
word for it.
That's my job.
Yep, that's great.
Well, matt, it's good to bewith you tonight and we're so
excited to be here.
We are always on the prowl, ifyou will, for future episodes,
future topics.
This is the Bible Says podcast.
So what we're trying to do iswe're trying to ground our
(02:26):
theology in biblical teaching,and there's so much of tradition
and mainstream religion thatbelieves things and they believe
them vehemently, but they can'tdefend them scripturally.
And our motto around here isthat if you cannot defend your
(02:47):
belief from the Bible clearly,then you probably shouldn't be
believing it vehemently, and sowe want to help you, we want to
help ourselves, we want to learnfrom the Word of God.
As I look back, we're recordingtonight.
I think this particular onethat we're recording right now
is episode 11.
We've talked about a wide gamut.
(03:08):
We've talked about what happensat salvation.
We've talked aboutjustification, sanctification,
glorification.
Then we kind of delved intosome eschatology.
We talked about the rapture ofthe church We've talked about.
Is that biblical?
We've presented differentviewpoints on that.
That led us to addressing themillennial reign of Christ,
(03:33):
which led us to addressing thejudgments, the judgment seat of
Christ, the great white thronejudgment, and then there's all
kinds of offshoots off of thesetopics that we can get into.
And if you get into thejudgment, specifically the great
white throne judgment, itreferences that everyone who was
not written in the Lamb's bookof life was cast into the lake
(03:54):
of fire.
And so that brings up a topicthat we want to introduce
tonight and we want to get intoover these next couple episodes
with you is what do you believeabout the afterlife?
As far as hell and the lake offire?
These are words that are usedin scripture, and what do they
(04:17):
mean?
What do they mean?
What do they stand for?
What does your tradition oryour faith teach you?
What are some of yourpreconceived notions about hell
and the lake of fire?
Are they different?
Are they the same thing?
Is it a real place?
Is it metaphorical?
Does it have fire?
Is it a place of torment?
Who goes there?
(04:38):
Who doesn't go there?
All that kind of stuff.
Matt (04:40):
Yeah, we'll look at a few different views that some people
hold.
Yeah, we'll look at a fewdifferent views that some people
hold.
I know I've had severalconversations with some of our
lovely friends that come visitat people's houses on this topic
.
I got you Jehovah's Witnesses,yes, I got you.
Okay, yes, and they hold a viewthat is not biblical.
(05:02):
What do they believe is notbiblical?
What do they believe?
They actually believe that hellis a metaphor that it does not
exist, that you are simplyforgotten by God.
What a wonderful thought.
You just go into nothingnessand are forgotten if you're not
(05:22):
saved.
Such a hopeful outlook yes that, such a hopeful outlook.
Yes, that's a real hopefuloutlook.
They'll use terms like if youare in the memory of God on
resurrection, if God remembersyou, then you get resurrected.
You make it to heaven if heremembers you.
(05:42):
So God has a memory problemsometimes.
Brandon (05:44):
Well, that's kind of the thought.
There's a lot of differentbeliefs and of course we're
poking at the Jehovah'sWitnesses, because there's ample
ammunition there to poke at.
And if you're a Jehovah'sWitness here, sorry, get out.
But yeah, but this belief inhell, you know?
(06:05):
I grew up, uh, in a Christianhome, pastor's home and I've
heard a lot of preaching and alot of teaching, even in people
who, I would say, believebiblically and correctly.
But many times our terminology,I've noticed, is wrong.
Let me give you an example.
(06:25):
How many times have I heardpreachers stand behind a pulpit
and say something along thelines of if you don't get saved
and you reject Christ, you willdie and go to hell forever?
Well, is that actually accurate?
I'm going to present to youtonight?
(06:45):
No, it's not.
No one will be in hell forever.
No one will be in hell forever.
We've already piqued yourinterest here tonight.
Some of you are alreadyscrambling and hopefully not
leaving nasty comments in thecomment section until you hear
us out, because the truth of thematter is, the Bible teaches
(07:08):
that and we don't want you totake our word for it.
We want you to hear us out.
Do like the Bereans did in Acts17, 11.
And go to your Bible and figureout if what we're telling you
is correct.
But I believe that your conceptof hell, the lake of fire, is
going to be challenged tonight.
(07:29):
There's some deeply heldbeliefs and preconceived notions
, traditions of men that havebeen taught.
We're going to poke holes inthings like what's the word I'm
looking for, the Catholics, thepurgatory belief.
We're going to look at that andwe're actually not going to
(07:49):
look at a whole lot of scripture, because there are none, but
we're going to look at thesedifferent viewpoints and we're
going to see what the Bibleactually says, what it says,
what it doesn't say, and we wantyou to align your belief system
and your theology with what theBible says.
Yeah, yeah, what do you thinkmost people believe about hell?
Their concept of hell?
Matt (08:11):
I mean most people's concept of hell is, you know,
this burning place with thedevil and a pitchfork, and
that's it, that's hell.
Brandon (08:24):
So that's a great point .
We think that the devil isthere.
He's got a pitchfork, he's gota pointy tail and he's red and
he's tormenting people.
Um, yeah, uh.
What if I were to tell you that?
Uh, there's actually, you know,no scripture to back that up?
I can actually show you morescripture that Satan actually
(08:48):
goes back and forth to heavenrather than hell.
Matt (08:53):
In fact, I can't even think of one where he goes to
hell he goes to and throw up anddown in the earth, up and down
and in the earth.
So there is that one Right youcould draw that, you could.
Is that one right you coulddraw that?
Yeah, you, you could stretchthat one out to that.
But, yeah, you know, the onlyplace we know for sure that he
ends up is at the end ofeternity or the beginning of
(09:17):
eternity.
The end of the millennium end ofthe millennium he gets thrown
into like fire.
Yeah, which uses differentwords than hell, even in the
Greek it does.
Brandon (09:27):
It does.
So what we want to do is wedon't want to, we want to just
kind of whet your appetite here.
And what we're going to dotonight is we're going to
introduce the concept of hellfrom a biblical lens.
And you know, do people die whoreject Christ and go to hell
forever?
We're going to answer thatquestion what's the difference
in hell and the lake of fire?
You?
Matt (09:46):
know, I think part of it ranges from our translations.
That's a great point.
Part of it is the translations.
Look, Go ahead Well don't.
Brandon (10:00):
Let me just say this, and this is and maybe we'll do
an episode or probably have todo a series on this translation
processes.
I use a King James Version 90%of the time.
Matt just told me here tonighthe's got an NIV that he's going
to be reading out of.
He uses a King James Version aswell.
I use a King James Versionbecause I've grown up with it.
(10:21):
I love it, I adore it.
I memorize my up with it.
I love it, I adore it.
I memorize my scriptures in it.
It is a faithful word for wordtranslation of the Greek and
Hebrew and the Aramaic into thelanguage that I speak, which is
English.
But we have to understand andif you are going to be a true
Bible student, you have got tobecome acclimated at least on
(10:45):
the basics of Greek and Hebrewand Aramaic and looking up words
.
And the wonderful thing is,with technology, you can take
your phone.
You can have an app on yourphone that allows you to look up
very quickly.
I have one on there and it'scalled eSword.
I think it's either free or itcosts $1.99 or something like
(11:07):
that.
You can download it.
When I'm reading scriptures, Ican click on the word next to it
.
It'll tell me the Greek word,it'll give me the reference
number or the Hebrew word, thereference number, and it'll give
me every place in the Biblethat that word's used.
We have got to becomeacclimated with the Greek and
the Hebrew words to be able tounderstand our Bible correctly.
And that leads me into as wewade out into the water here on
(11:31):
the topic of hell and the lakeof fire tonight.
There are different terms thatwe are referenced as hell in the
Bible, well, four Well you'retalking about the Hebrew.
(11:55):
Well, yeah, there are, and helpme make sure that I remember all
these.
So there's obviously hell,translated hell, in the New
Testament from the Greek, theGreek word.
Our English word is hell, theGreek word.
The first one that you'reprobably familiar with is the
word Hades H-A-D-E-S.
(12:15):
Okay, and Hades is theequivalent of our English word,
hell.
So hell equals Hades.
Okay, there's another word, andwe're going to show you some
scriptures to back this up herein just a moment but there's
another word in the Hebrew thatis the Hebrew equivalent of the
Greek word.
So there's Hades in the Greekand the word Sheol, S-H-E-O-L is
(12:41):
the Hebrew equivalent, talkingabout the same place.
So we're going to see that.
We're going to dive into that.
Give us the other two.
Matt (12:48):
Matt.
Okay, the other two, you haveGehenna.
Okay, that's translated oftenas hell.
Brandon (12:55):
Actually, I think it's the most.
More times in the King Jamesit's translated hell, gehenna
than any other word.
Gehenna, that is G-E-H-E-N-N-A,h-e-n-n-a, gehenna.
So we have Hades, we haveGehenna in the Greek.
Those two are Greek and we haveSheol in the Hebrew.
And then the last one is, sayit again, tartarus, tartarus,
(13:18):
which is T-A-R-T-A-R-U-STartarus.
Okay, and how many times is itused in the Bible?
I don't know.
Matt (13:27):
I didn't count it, just one Just one, just one, in 2
Peter.
Brandon (13:30):
We're going to look at that Tartarus, but in our
English Bible it is translatedhell.
Okay, so we're going to look atthese.
There's also some terms thatwe're going to look at over the
next couple episodes, called thelake of fire, okay, uh, there's
a couple other terms that Iwant to introduce as well, Three
other terms that are very uh.
(13:51):
They are talking about the samething, although it doesn't.
It talks about a place ofeverlasting fire.
That is one uh, uh phrasethat's using the King James.
Then there's another one calledeverlasting punishment.
Okay, everlasting fire,everlasting punishment.
And then we're going to look atone that is kind of shrouded in
mystery and people oftenmisconstrue it and, I believe,
(14:14):
misapply it in its theologicalmeaning, and that is outer
darkness, outer darkness.
So we're going to look at theseterms hell, lake of fire,
tartarus, sheol, everlastingfire, everlasting punishment,
outer darkness.
We're going to look at allthese.
What in the world does allthese mean, and are they all the
same?
Do we just use theminterchangeably?
The short answer is no, andwe're going to explain all of
(14:38):
them.
Matt (14:38):
Most people do use them interchangeably, though.
Brandon (14:41):
That's the sad part.
That leads to some bad theology.
Bad theology, I figured theword Tartarus is used one time,
so why don't we just tee up thatone and let's look at 2 Peter 2
, verse 4.
Matt, if you can read that one,then I want to show you what's
(15:04):
going on here and this scriptureis talking about.
Well, let's just read it andwe'll jump in.
This is the word Tartarus.
It's the only time that it'sused in the whole Bible, 2 Peter
, chapter number two, versenumber four.
Matt (15:16):
Okay, for God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast
them down to hell and deliveredthem into chains of darkness to
be reserved unto judgment okay,so god spared not the angels
that sinned, but cast them downto hell, and they're in chains
of darkness.
Brandon (15:34):
Is that what it said?
The chains of darkness ofdarkness reserved unto judgment.
Unto judgment now, um, if you'renew to the bible, what in the
heck's going on here?
Right, we'll just throw youright in the deep end here this
is talking about.
If you studied out 2 Peter andif you study two or three other
passages in the New Testament,it references this there was an
(15:58):
episode that we refer to as theGenesis 6 episode.
Okay, genesis, chapter 6, somecrazy stuff happened that
warrants its own series ofpodcast episodes and really
honestly changed the trajectoryof the entire Bible.
Okay, the entire story, and Ithink that it's you know.
(16:22):
Stuff like this is still goingon today.
Genesis, chapter 6, I just wantto read you what happened,
because 2 Peter tells us thatthere was angels that sinned
against God, and God put them inthe English word is translated
hell, but it's.
He put them in Tartarus, orTarturo is the Greek, the root
word of the word.
(16:42):
So he put them in a placecalled Tartarus.
What in the world is that?
Okay?
Matt (16:46):
Yeah, and it really changed the whole trajectory,
the whole focus of the Bible.
Oh yeah, it did.
Brandon (16:53):
Results from this Most.
The traditional view over thelast couple hundred years is
that Genesis 6, well, let mejust read it, verse number one.
It says and it came to passwhen men began to multiply on
the face of the earth anddaughters were born unto them.
This is before the flood, thatthe sons of God saw the
daughters of men, that they werefair and they took them wives
(17:16):
of all which they chose.
And the Lord said my spiritshall not always strive with man
for that.
He is also flesh, yet his daysshall be 120 years.
Now watch this verse four.
There were giants in the earthin those days and also after
that, when the sons of God camein unto the daughters of men and
they bear children to them, thesame became mighty men which
(17:40):
were of old men of renown.
This is what we're talkingabout when we talk about the
Genesis 6 episode.
Okay, so here's what you have,and long story short.
The sons of God come into thedaughters of men and they have
children with them.
These children become giants,men of renown, gibberim in the
Hebrew.
Okay, the New Testament tells usin 2 Peter that back in the
(18:03):
time of Noah.
It tells us in 2 Peter thatback in the time of Noah, angels
sinned against God, or actuallyI should say back before the
flood.
Angels sinned against God andthey were chained up in Tartarus
.
So this is the episode.
It's the only thing in theBible that comes close to being
(18:23):
what 2 Peter is describing.
It is the episode where thesons of God and if you study
that out in the Old Testament,the sons of God is always
translated the B'nai Elohim inthe Hebrew and it means the
angels of God, okay.
One of the traditional views isthat this is the sons of Seth.
It's the good line of Sethversus the bad line of Cain.
The sons of God and thedaughters of men.
(18:44):
That is completely provable.
I'm using a Schofield referenceBible here and he is completely
wrong on this because he saysthat it's the godly line of Seth
versus the worldly line of Cain.
It's not right.
The Old Testament proves.
You can go to the book of Joband prove it.
Sons of God were angels.
So angels rebelled against Godprior to the flood.
(19:06):
They bred with women, okay, andproduced an offspring that were
giants.
They were men of renown, andGod took the fathers of these
giants and chained them up.
2 Peter says in a place calledTartarus okay, which is, in our
Bible, translated hell okay.
(19:28):
So that's pretty crazy.
So to this day, we have noreason to believe that these
angels have ever been let out ofhell or Tartarus, which is the
Greek word.
There is a special, and if youlook up the word Tartarus, it is
a special.
I, if you look up the wordTartarus, it is a special.
I'll say it like this it's aspecial compartment inside of a
(19:52):
place that we're about todiscover called hell.
Tartarus okay, it's its ownlocality inside of a greater
locality called hell.
So it's a subcompartment ofhell.
Matt (20:06):
Does that make sense does it does.
And if you research, you knowwe don't want to get into the
greek mythos type stuff here,but if you research the greek
mythology around hades, right,and what it was, what they
thought, what they believed, thecontext of the person in the
first century that would bereading this or writing this,
(20:30):
these books in the New Testament, right.
If you get into their thoughtsand their ideas of hell, right,
there's multiple compartments.
Brandon (20:41):
Multiple compartments to a place called hell.
Okay, so the first one, thefirst term that we're going to
throw at you if you're writingnotes.
Somebody told me the other daythey write a couple of pages of
notes per podcast episode.
We thank you for listening andpaying that close of attention.
There's a place called Tartarus.
What do we know about Tartarus?
Really, the only thing we knowis that there are angels who
(21:05):
sinned against God and they arechained up there and they're
reserved unto the judgment,which has not happened yet.
That is Tartarus.
So that is one of the wordstranslated hell in your New
Testament.
2 Peter 2, verse 4.
I want to go to, I want to showyou Acts, chapter number 2.
I want to show you this becauseI want to introduce the word
(21:26):
Hades and I want to introducethe word Sheol here, and I want
you to see that they aresynonymous the Old Testament
Hebrew word Sheol and the NewTestament word for hell, which
is Hades.
Okay, acts, chapter two, versenumber 27.
The Bible says in Acts, chaptertwo this is Peter's sermon on
(21:49):
the day of Pentecost.
He says because thou wilt notleave my soul in hell, neither
wilt thou suffer thine holy oneto see corruption.
He is describing David in theOld Testament, in the book of
Psalms, prophesying the Messiahcoming, and Peter is preaching
on the day of Pentecost and hereads those words.
(22:09):
We translate them, the wordsthat Peter spoke on the day of
Pentecost, into our English fromGreek.
And it is the word hell whichis the word Hades.
Okay, so the Greek wordtranslated in Acts, chapter two
is actually quoting Psalm,chapter 16.
Okay, psalm chapter 16, versenumber 10.
(22:30):
And it is a verbatim quote fromPsalm 16, where David is
prophesying the coming Messiahand Peter quotes him on the day
of Pentecost.
And let's read Psalm 16, versenumber 10.
Matt (22:44):
Okay, for thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither
wilt thou suffer thine holy oneto see corruption.
Brandon (22:51):
So thou wilt not leave my soul in hell or suffer thine
holy one to see corruption.
It is almost a word-for-wordquotation that Peter used on the
day of Pentecost, quoting Psalm16.
Okay, so Peter uses the wordHades, all right.
David used the word Sheol.
These are synonyms, meaning thesame place, okay.
(23:11):
So we looked at Tartarus.
Now I want to introduce to youthe word Hades, and when you
think Hades, I want you to thinkNew Testament Greek.
When you hear the word Sheol, Iwant you to think the same
place, but Old Testament Hebrew.
Okay, that's what you need toknow.
Sheol and Hades are the sameplace.
(23:32):
Hades and Sheol are the sameplace.
Now I want to show you thismysterious place and I want to
read to you a little story fromNumbers, chapter number 16.
There was some folks who wererelated.
There was a guy named Korah,k-o-r-a-h, and they did some bad
(23:53):
things.
You can read the whole accountin Numbers, chapter number 16,
but when you get down to versenumber 28, god is going to
pronounce judgment on Korah andhe uses Moses to do this.
And watch what he says in versenumber 28.
Just listen closely.
And Moses said hereby you shallknow that the Lord hath sent me
(24:13):
to do all these works, for Ihave not done them of mine own
mind.
If these men die the commondeath of all men, or if they be
visited after the visitation ofall men die the common death of
all men, or if they be visitedafter the visitation of all men,
then the Lord hath not sent me.
But if the Lord make a newthing, watch this and the earth
open her mouth and swallow themup with all that appertain unto
(24:36):
them and they go down quick intothe pit, notice that.
Then they shall understand thatthese men have provoked the
Lord.
So basically, moses is sayinglook, I speak on behalf of God.
You guys have offended God andI'm going to tell you what could
happen to you.
And what I think is going tohappen to you is the earth is
(24:57):
going to open up and swallow youand everything that pertains to
you in your life down into thepit.
Now watch what happens.
And it came to pass as he hadmade an end of speaking, moses,
all these words that the groundclave asunder, that was under
them, or opened up, and theearth opened her mouth and
(25:17):
swallowed them up and theirhouses and all the men that
appertained unto Korah and alltheir goods.
They and all that appertainedto them went down watch this
went down alive into the pit andthe earth closed upon them and
(25:38):
they perished from among thecongregation.
All Israel that were roundabout them fled at the cry of
them, for they said lest theearth swallow us up also.
So I want you to think aboutthis for a second, because some
of you may have never read thatstory and never heard it.
Moses pronounces judgmentcoming from God on the Korah and
(26:00):
those that were associated withhim and all that pertained to
them, these men, okay, the Biblesays the earth opened up and
swallowed them and they wentdown alive into the pit.
Guess what?
The word pit?
There is the word Sheol,s-h-e-o-l.
Sheol, which is the same wordin Greek in the New Testament
(26:24):
hell or Hades.
Okay.
So that story shines a lot ofcontext on the subject of hell,
hades, sheol.
Okay, we learned somethingright here, okay?
So if you're a note taker,write this down the earth opened
(26:46):
up and people went down aliveinto the pit, or down alive into
Sheol, or to Hades or to hell.
These are all the same term.
Hell and Hades and Sheol sameterm.
They went down alive into thepit, but the earth opened up and
took them down into the pit.
So here we learn something thatyou're going to see in these
(27:08):
next few verses, that we'regoing to show you where hell is.
Hell is in this earth that welive on right now.
Hell is on earth.
Hell is on earth.
It's in the earth.
The earth opened up andswallowed them down into Sheol
(27:31):
or the pit or Hades, hell,whichever term you're using,
whether you're speaking Greek orHebrew.
Matt (27:37):
And that would make sense with Satan's explanation to God
in Job, where he says he wasgoing to and throw and in the
earth Up and down, in the earthRight and in the earth.
That's.
Brandon (27:53):
And there's also you hear a lot.
You brought up Greek mythologyand you brought up all these
kind of things.
And I know we don't worshipobviously we don't worship gods
of Greek mythos and things likethat but a lot of mythology.
What you're going to find is alot of legends when it comes to
what we referenced a minute ago,genesis 6, giants, what they
(28:18):
call gods, the ancient gods andthings like that are actually on
some truth but are misconstruedand the bad guys in God's story
become the good guys in theirreligions.
Okay, so there's a lot ofthings like that, but I want you
(28:40):
to understand.
You know there's a lot of talkof the underworld and things
like that.
You brought up the scripturesthat talk about Satan going to
and fro up and down in the earth.
There's also I think it'sRevelation 5, when people, every
creature, says I think worthyis the lamb, and it's that scene
in heaven where Jesus takes theseven sealed book and it says
(29:02):
every creature will sing hispraise I'm paraphrasing every
creature in the earth and underthe earth and it, and there's
that kind of language allthroughout scripture there's in
the earth, on the earth, inheaven, under the earth, there
is a uh, there is a this.
We want to introduce thisconcept to you because it is
biblical.
There is a place, and we'regoing to show you here in a
(29:25):
second it's in the center ofthis earth.
Yeah, even in the Greek mythosit's in the center of the earth,
right, and it's called hell, orit's called Hades in the Greek
or in the Hebrew, sheol, sheoland even referenced, as in the
King James, as the pit, the pit.
Okay, so hopefully your head isnot spinning yet, but we just
(29:48):
want to introduce this to youand we want you to understand
this.
The Bible says several thingsabout this and I just want to
cast some light on it as well.
Psalm chapter number nine.
Let's look at a couple ofpsalms, because it references
this place called Sheol in theHebrew, which is what we call
hell, and watch what it says inPsalm chapter 9, verse 17.
Matt (30:10):
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations
that forget God, okay.
Brandon (30:16):
So the wicked shall be turned into hell.
And the Hebrew word there iswhat Sheol, it is the word Sheol
.
The Hebrew word there is whatSheol, it is the word Sheol.
It is the same word fromNumbers, chapter 16,.
The sons of Korah and all thoseappertained to him taken down
alive into the pit the earthopened up and swallowed them.
And the Bible says that wickednations, the wicked and the
(30:37):
nations that forget God, will bethrown into hell and taken to
hell.
Psalm, chapter 16, verse number10, says this for thou will not
leave my soul in hell this isthe one we looked at a second
ago that Peter quotes on the dayof Pentecost, referencing
David's prophecy about theMessiah Okay, and what we find
(30:59):
out is that the father will notleave the Messiah, his soul, in
Sheol.
Okay, he will not allow hisHoly One capitalized to see
corruption.
This is a direct prophecy ofthe death, burial and
(31:20):
resurrection of Jesus and then,prior to the resurrection,
between the death and theresurrection, jesus' work and
we're going to see this in aminute of going.
Do you know this?
Jesus went to hell.
Matt (31:33):
Yeah, I was going to ask if we were going to hit that.
Jesus went to hell.
Brandon (31:39):
But Psalm 16 says thou wilt not leave my soul in hell
or suffer your Holy One to seecorruption.
So we're going to see that Alittle teaser there.
We'll get there in a fewminutes.
We're going to look at thatpretty in depth.
Matt (31:54):
What part of hell did he go to?
Well, we'll get there.
Brandon (31:56):
Okay, yeah, we'll get there.
There's a whole neighborhooddown there, apparently.
Let me read that one real quick.
There's a whole neighborhooddown there, apparently.
Let me read that one real quick.
And I want to show you this.
I just want to establish thatthese are Sheol Hades.
It's in the center of the earthand it's an actual place that
people can go to.
In Proverbs 9, the writer ofProverbs is warning the young
(32:19):
man, void of wisdom, about thefoolish woman, the loose woman,
and he says in verse number 17that stolen waters are sweet and
bread eaten in secret ispleasant, but the simple one.
But he knoweth not that thedead are there and that her
(32:43):
guests are in the depths of hell.
So if you follow sin and youfollow this woman, you're going
to end up in hell.
Her guests are in the depths ofSheol.
Okay, so there's all kinds ofreferences all throughout the
Old Testament, new Testament, toSheol in the Old Testament,
hades in the New Testament, andof course, we call it hell in
(33:04):
our English language.
Okay, so you got anything toadd there before we go on?
No, okay, there's loads ofreferences to it.
There are.
So let's look at Matthew 16.
Do you have that one?
Matt (33:20):
I do Okay.
16 and 18.
Matthew 16 and 18.
Matthew 16 and 18.
And I say unto thee thou artPeter, and upon this rock I will
build my church, and the gatesof hell shall not prevail
against it.
Brandon (33:33):
Okay, very famous passage Peter Jesus'
proclamation You're Peter, uponthis rock, I'll build my church
and the gates of hell shall notprevail against it.
Okay, and we know that theactual translations I'll build
my church and the gates of hellshall not prevail against it.
Okay, and we know that theactual translation is the gates
of hell will not prevent it,because a gate is not an
offensive weapon to prevail onanything.
(33:54):
The gate of hell cannot preventit.
Jesus is basically declaring inthe most pagan area, caesarea,
philippi, that I'm going tobuild my church and I'm coming
and advancing toward hell.
There's nothing you can do toprevent me from advancing my
church.
Okay, and so what I want you tounderstand is that the gates of
(34:17):
hell or the gates of Hadescannot hold back the church,
okay, so what have we seenalready?
We have seen that there is aplace called Sheol or hell,
hades, depending on if you'rereading Greek or Hebrew.
It is in the center of theearth.
We also saw in the first wordthat we looked at Tartarus, that
(34:40):
Tartarus is a holding area.
Okay, it is a place whereangels are chained up that
sinned against God in Genesis,chapter 6, and it seems to be
associated with Sheol and Hadesand it seems to be and we're
going to see this in a littlewhile a compartment, if you will
(35:01):
, of hell or of Sheol.
So you have Sheol and then youhave a compartment it you will
of hell or of Sheol.
So you have Sheol and then youhave a compartment.
It's kind of like your houseand you have a closet in your
house.
Okay, it's all your house, butthere's a separate compartment
that you put your pantry orcloset or whatever.
Tartarus is a separatecompartment of hell, specific to
(35:23):
where God put the angelswaiting for judgment.
Okay, so now, as we keep goingon in this concept of hell, I
want to show you probably themost famous story of hell in all
the Bible, and it's the storyof the rich man and Lazarus.
(35:45):
And I want to say somethingreal quick here.
Okay, a lot of people, a lot ofmodern-day preachers and
teachers, they deny theexistence of hell or the lake of
fire, and they will say youknow, the only evidence you have
is Luke, chapter 16, whereJesus said and they'll use this
(36:06):
word, they'll say the parable ofthe rich man and Lazarus.
Let me point this out to you.
Okay, when Jesus teaches in thegospels and uses parables.
He does not use people'sspecific names.
Okay, he uses, for illustrativepurposes, parables which are
earthly stories that haveheavenly meanings.
(36:29):
The story that we're about totell you in Luke 16 is not a
parable.
It is actually involved a man,a beggar named Lazarus, and a
rich man that his name is notgiven.
But it is not.
It is a specific, real storybecause we have Lazarus talking,
we have the rich man, we haveAbraham actually conversing in
(36:50):
this story, the real Abraham.
We get a glimpse into hisafterlife and I want you to
realize this is somewhat 1,500years after Abraham's death.
This story occurs.
Okay, I mean, this isfascinating stuff.
Let's go to Luke, chapternumber 16.
Luke 16, this is a.
If you've ever heard a sermonpreached in a traditional
(37:12):
evangelical church, you probably.
It was probably based on Luke,chapter 16.
And this is.
You know, a lot of people pushback in the modern church and
say, well, you shouldn't preachthis story as literal.
A lot of people push back inthe modern church and say, well,
you shouldn't preach this storyas literal.
It is literal, it's not aparable.
And what you say?
It scares people.
Well, hell is real.
Matt (37:30):
And it probably should scare people.
A healthy fear of the Lord iscompletely biblical.
Brandon (37:38):
Well, I thank God that I was taught about hell and I
was taught about the afterlife.
And you know what?
I'm not going to stand here andtell you that the reason that I
trusted Christ when I was sevenyears old wasn't partly due to
being afraid that I would dieand go to hell.
Okay, and there ain't nothingwrong with that.
I've heard people say well, youknow, fear is not a good basis
to get saved.
Let me say this Anything is agood basis to get saved.
(38:01):
If you're lost, get saved,trust Christ.
Okay.
Well, I just got saved becauseI didn't want to go to hell.
Well, that's a great startingpoint.
Whatever it is, get saved,trust Christ.
Luke, chapter 16, let's get intoit.
Verse number 19,.
There was a certain rich manwhich was clothed in purple and
(38:23):
fine linen and fared sumptuouslyevery day, and there was a
certain beggar named Lazaruswhich was laid at his gate, full
of sores and desiring to be fedwith the crumbs which fell from
the rich man's table.
Moreover, the dogs came andlicked his sores and it came to
pass that the beggar died noticethis and was carried by the
(38:43):
angels into watch this Abraham'sbosom.
Now, that's weird phraseology,right there?
Right?
So Lazarus dies and was carriedinto Abraham's bosom Notice
(39:04):
this, the rich manments andseeth Abraham afar off and
Lazarus in his bosom.
Okay, so let's not just speedthrough this.
We have a beggar named Lazarus,we have a rich man who is
unnamed, is unnamed, and then wehave Abraham mentioned here
because when the beggar dies, heis carried, the Bible says, by
(39:35):
the angels into Abraham's bosom.
Okay, so there's a place herecalled Abraham's bosom and
that's where the beggar went.
Then we have the rich man dyingalso and the Bible says and in
hell and the word there is Hades.
And in Hades he lifted up hiseyes, being in torment, and he
sees Abraham alive there, and hesees Lazarus, the beggar that
(40:01):
he knew back from his earthlylife, there Now.
So this is a fascinating scenewhere we get a glimpse into what
is happening after three deadmen pass from this earth.
We have Abraham, who's seenalive, you're about to see.
(40:21):
We have the beggar, lazarus,who's seen alive, and we have
this rich man who lifts up thatverse scares you to death.
And in hell he lifted up hiseyes, he died on this planet and
he was awake and conscious inanother world called another
(40:41):
place for lack of a better term,called Hades or Sheol in the
Hebrew, or hell.
And in hell he lifted up hiseyes and notice being in
torments.
Okay, this is not a parable,guys.
This is specific names,specific places, proper names.
(41:03):
This is not a parable, nomatter what Joel Osteen tells
you, okay, oh, there's no hell,there's no evidence of it.
All right, he knows the truth.
He just doesn't want to offendhis liberal listeners or get on
TV and, you know, affect hisbottom line.
And hey, we got to tell thepeople the truth.
There is a hell.
(41:24):
The Bible talks a ton about it.
I mean, people were actuallyswallowed up and went down alive
into this place called Sheol,or hell or Hades, and here these
guys die.
Now let's read on and find outwhat happens.
And he cried and said FatherAbraham, have mercy on me and
(41:44):
send Lazarus that he may dip thetip of his finger in water and
cool my tongue, for I amtormented in this flame.
So here we have this rich mancrying out to Abraham.
He sees Abraham, the Bible saysafar off, and he cries out and
he says I know Lazarus overthere.
Send Lazarus and let him diphis finger in water and just
(42:06):
drip it on my tongue because I'mtormented in this flame.
So here we see hell, hades, realplace, torment, fire.
This guy's crying out.
It's horrible description.
But watch what Abraham says inverse 25.
But Abraham said Son, rememberthat thou in thy lifetime
(42:27):
receivest thy good things andlikewise Lazarus the evil things
, but now he is comforted andthou art tormented.
Now notice this, because here'sthe rich man.
Where are they at?
It says in hell.
He lifted up his eyes but hecan see Lazarus and he can see
Abraham.
And it says in verse number 25that Lazarus is comforted where
(42:53):
he's at and the rich man is not,he's tormented.
So here we see one place wherethe rich man is, but he's
looking over into a place whereLazarus is being comforted and
he's being tormented.
So we see a multifaceted placethat has different layers.
We've already seen Tartarus,where angels.
(43:15):
It's like a holding area, aseparate compartment, a closet,
if you will, a separate area ofhell.
And here we see two moreseparate areas of hell one place
of torment and one place calledAbraham's bosom, a place of
comfort.
Okay, so I want you to see this.
I mean it's a fascinating storyin language, verse 26,.
(43:38):
It says and beside all this,between us.
This is Abraham talking andbeside all this, between us and
you, there is a great gulf fixed, so they which would pass from
hence to you cannot, neither canthey pass to us that would come
(43:58):
from thence.
So, in other words, there is agreat gulf, there is a division,
a divider, and Abraham tellsthe rich man who's hollering
across this divide.
To him, he says we can't cometo you and you can't come to us.
Matt (44:13):
Scary, yeah, and just think about the torture of that.
You're there in torment and youcan look across at what you
missed out on, but you can't getthere and you can't get there.
Brandon (44:27):
Oh my goodness, that gives me chills.
Thinking about that.
That is such a.
That in and of itself istorment.
Yeah, not counting the flames,not counting the flames, and
flames are mentioned.
Hell is a place of fire.
Yeah, not counting the flames,not counting the flames, and
flames are mentioned.
Hell is a place of fire.
Yeah, oh my goodness.
Let's read on Verse 27.
Then he said I pray thee,therefore, father.
(44:49):
So now the rich man who findsout he can't, nobody can get to
him.
He says but if one went untothem from the dead, they will
(45:16):
repent.
And he said unto them if theyhear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded.
Though one rose from the dead.
Think about that.
That's almost a prophecy.
Yeah, because the Jewish peopleas a whole have not received
the one who was raised from thedead.
Why?
Because they don't believeMoses and the prophets.
(45:36):
If they believe the prophets,like Jeremiah, isaiah, daniel,
they'd look at the propheciesand receive Christ.
Oh my goodness, this is aprofound story.
Yeah, but what are we seeing?
What have we learned aboutSheol and Hades?
It is in the center of theearth.
It is a real place.
There's a division, there'smultiple compartments.
(45:59):
There seems to be from what theBible is saying.
There is a good section to thisarea, or a place of comfort, if
you will, and then there is aplace of torture and a place of
torment and crying out and fire.
(46:22):
Yeah, oh, my goodness, isn'tthis crazy?
Yeah.
Matt (46:27):
And it lines up with the Greek thinking of the day as
well.
Okay, if you look at the Greekmythologies and their stories,
you know there are severalstories where the hero in the
story is going into Hades, takesthe boat ride, pays the boatman
, goes into Hades to retrieve aloved one from Hades Okay, right
(46:53):
, to retrieve someone from there, to retrieve someone from there
.
And in all of those storiesthey're queued up and people are
facing a certain I can'tremember what the name of this,
whatever minor god it is, butyou have to have something to
pay him.
And if you pay him and havesomething to pay him, you go to
(47:16):
the good side of Hades, right?
If you don't, you go to thegood side of Hades, right.
If you don't, you go to the badside of Hades.
Brandon (47:21):
So, let's be real clear .
These are ancient beliefs thatare kind of grounded on a little
bit of truth.
But obviously you cannot payyour way in and out of hell, or
the rich man would have done itI'm sure he would have tried to
do that but what we do see isthat there is a hell and there
(47:43):
are two sides to it, or there'sa great gulf dividing the place
of torment from the place ofcomfort.
And then we also know of athird compartment called
Tartarus, which is translated ashell, where the angels are as
well.
So it's fascinating.
And then let's shine a littlebit more light on this.
(48:05):
Luke, chapter number 23,.
Matt, if you got that versenumber 43.
Let me set this up.
Jesus is on the cross.
Jesus is crucified between twothieves who are dying for their
own sin.
Jesus obviously is dying forour sin, and a lot of things
happen on the cross.
But one of the thieves actuallychooses to believe in Jesus and
(48:27):
he asks him to remember himwhen thou comest into thy
kingdom.
Okay, he said remember me.
He wanted to be saved.
He believed that Jesus was theSon of God, was dying for the
sin of the world.
He said remember me.
He wanted to be saved.
He believed that Jesus was theson of God, was dying for the
sin of the world.
He believed in Jesus in thatmoment.
Matt (48:45):
And read verse number 43 and find out what Jesus said to
him, and Jesus said unto himverily, I say unto thee, today,
shalt thou be with me inparadise, okay.
So I want you to think aboutthis, for a second.
Brandon (48:56):
Shalt thou be with me in paradise?
Okay?
So I want you to think aboutthis for a second.
So this thief says remember me.
And Jesus says today, that'svery important, today you'll be
with me in paradise.
Now, hold on, think about thisfor a second, because so many
people have never thought aboutthis.
All right, so Jesus dies on thecross.
How many days until he risesfrom the dead?
(49:18):
The Bible is very clear on thisThree days and three nights,
okay, it's the sign of theprophet Jonah.
Okay, that is why Jesus was notcrucified on Friday and rose on
Sunday morning.
It was not Good Friday.
That is a different topic for adifferent day, because you
can't get three days and threenights from Friday to Sunday.
Okay, based on the Jewishcalendar and how they judge days
(49:41):
, all right, you can't do it.
So, but regardless of all that,jesus is about to be in the
grave.
His body is going to be in thegrave in the borrowed tomb of
Joseph of Arimathea for threedays and three nights, and then,
early on the first day of theweek, he rises from the dead and
is seen for the next 40 daysalive by over 500 people.
(50:02):
Okay, but during the three days.
What happened From the time hedied on the cross?
His body was placed in thegrave, but what did Jesus say to
the rich, or to the rich man,to the thief on the cross?
He said today, today, not inthree days, you'll rise from the
dead with me and I'll, you know, go to heaven.
(50:24):
Go to heaven when I ascend.
He didn't say that.
He said today, you will be withme and notice what he said in
paradise.
In paradise, so here's what Iwant you to understand.
Okay, in paradise.
So here's what I want you tounderstand.
When Jesus died, his body wentto the grave, but we are a body,
soul and spirit.
So Jesus' soul and Jesushimself, his spirit and his
(50:51):
truth, went to paradise.
Paradise, what we're tellingyou is that Abraham's bosom from
the story from Luke 16 andparadise are the same place.
So when Jesus died and the thiefon the cross died, they went to
the good side of what we wouldcall Sheol or Hades.
(51:16):
Okay, there is a place oftorment and there is a place of
comfort.
Jesus went to that place ofcomfort.
So did the thief on the cross.
All the while, everyone who hadrejected Christ and had not
believed in him from all timewas on the bad side in torment.
(51:37):
So if you go back to Numbers,chapter number 16, and the guys
with Korah and all them who wereswallowed up and went down into
hell, they are on the bad side.
The rich man is on the bad side.
Lazarus, Abraham, jesus, at thispoint, and the thief on the
cross are all on the good side,all right.
And the thief on the cross areall on the good side, all right.
(51:59):
David, if you will, all the OldTestament saints, they are on
the paradise, abraham's bosomside of this place called Hades
or Sheol.
That's a lot to take inGoodness.
It is, it really is, it reallyis, it really is, it really is.
But what we see is I want you tonotice this because many people
(52:23):
don't realize what Jesus didJesus goes to the.
When he dies, he goes to thecenter of the earth.
Let me prove this to you fromScripture Matt.
If you got Psalm 68, 18, andI'm going to go to Ephesians,
chapter 4, 8 through 10, and Iwant you to see this and I want
(52:46):
you to just let this sink intoyour head, because a lot of this
is probably making your headspin Is there a hell?
Yes, where's it at?
It's in the center of the earth.
Okay, it's known as Sheol inthe Hebrew, hades in the Greek.
There are differentcompartments of it.
There was a place of comfortcalled Abraham's bosom, or
paradise.
There's also a place of tormentand fire and flames where the
(53:06):
rich man went.
This is the bad side of hell,and I want you to see what is
prophesied in Psalm 68, versenumber 18.
Matt (53:15):
Matt's going to read that for us, and thou hast ascended
on high, thou hast led captivitycaptive.
Thou hast received gifts formen Yea, for the rebellious.
Also the Lord God might dwellamong them.
Brandon (53:29):
Okay.
So he says that he has ascendedon high.
This is a prophecy that theMessiah is going to die and he's
going to ascend back up on high, but it says he's going to lead
captivity, captive.
Okay, very key words there.
Look at Ephesians, chapter 4,because a very similar passage
(53:50):
to that from the Old Testamentin Psalm 68 is Ephesians 4,
verse 8 through 10.
Now listen to this verse 8through 10.
Now listen to this.
Wherefore he saith this is Paultalking.
When he, jesus, ascended up onhigh, he led captivity, captive
and gave gifts unto men.
(54:10):
That is a quote from Psalm 68.
Now Paul explains what thismeans in verse number 9 and 10.
He says this now he thatascended, that means go up what
is it?
But that he also descended,that means go down first into
the lower parts of the earth.
(54:30):
He that descended is the samealso that ascended up far above
all heavens, that he might fillall things.
So what does Paul tell us?
He quotes Psalm 68 and says theMessiah is going to ascend, but
before he ascends he's going tolead captivity captive.
And Paul explains what thatmeans.
(54:52):
Before Jesus ascended back toheaven, he descended and Paul's
very clear on it into the lowerparts of the earth and led
captivity out of captivity andled them to heaven with him.
He led them out and ascendedwith them.
So who's the them that he led?
(55:14):
Who's the captives that he ledout of captivity that he led?
Who's the captives that he ledout of captivity?
Here's what the Bible teaches.
We believe from everything.
The Bible tells us thateveryone from the beginning of
time, every human Noah, david,samuel, all these, when they
died, they went to the center ofthe earth and they were held in
(55:37):
the good part, where Abrahamwas, where Lazarus went paradise
, or Abraham's bosom, okay, andthey went there.
And when Jesus died on thecross, he had defeated death,
defeated hell, defeated sin, andhis body was placed in the
grave, but he, his soul, went toHades or Sheol, and he led all
(56:02):
of those people out of thattemporary holding area, okay,
and he led them to heaven onhigh.
That's what the Bible teaches.
He led captivity, captive.
Fascinating thoughts, matt Yep.
Fascinating thoughts, it is.
Matt (56:20):
So literally went in and took the good people out,
emptied it, the saved, thesaints, emptied the good side of
Sheol or Hades, emptied it outto take them to heaven.
Brandon (56:40):
So yeah, absolutely so.
There's an think about thisright now.
There is hell, has thetorturous side, the fire side,
but then it also has theAbraham's bosom and the paradise
side.
But guess what?
Nobody's in that place now.
Nobody's in the good side.
(57:00):
Why?
Because at Jesus's resurrectionor, I'm sorry, at Jesus's death
, he went to hell and led all ofthose captives, or those who
were kept there, out of thereand led them to heaven.
And then the Bible says nowPaul's clear about this that
when we die now, we are absentfrom this body, but we are
present with the Lord.
We don't go to the center ofthe earth, Our souls don't.
(57:24):
Why?
Because Jesus has alreadydefeated sin and death in the
grave and he's emptied that out.
Now we go directly to meet Godin heaven.
To be absent from the body isto be present with the Lord.
So here's what I want you tothink about as we close this
episode.
I want you to think about thisRight now there is an empty side
(57:45):
or an empty compartment that inthe past has been referred to
as Abraham's bosom or paradise,and it is in the center of the
earth.
And it is empty now becausethere are no saints that are
left there.
Okay, but I want you to thinkabout this too there's also a
full side.
There's also a full side thathas gotten bigger and bigger,
(58:09):
and the Bible says that hellhath enlarged herself because
everyone who rejects Christ.
Right now, if you die, theBible says you're like that rich
man, and in hell you will liftup your eyes being in torments.
There's nobody over there toconverse with.
Now that good side, thecomforting side, has been
(58:30):
emptied out.
But hell is very real.
One of the saddest thoughtsthat you can think about in
reading scripture is that thatrich man who died a couple
thousand years ago is stillthere.
He's still there.
He's gotten no comfort, he'sstill in torment.
He's still in the flames.
What we want you to see tonightis that hell is real.
(58:54):
It is in the center of thisearth.
Now, in the next episode, whatwe're going to talk about is
that hell is not eternal.
That is not where people whoreject Christ will be forever.
There's a different place andit's called the lake of fire and
they are not the same.
Okay, but I just want tocaution you right now.
If you died today withoutChrist, you are destined to go
(59:16):
to hell.
You will go to hell, and thatis a horrible, horrible thought
I don't want.
Destined to go to hell, youwill go to hell, yeah, and that
is a horrible, horrible thought.
I don't want anyone to go tohell.
I don't want anyone to beseparated from God.
I don't want anybody to be inthe flames of hell and I am not
going to stand here as apreacher of the Bible and tell
you oh, don't worry about it,it's all metaphorical, it's all
symbolic.
No, it is very real and youneed to trust Christ and realize
(59:39):
that the reason he died was soyou don't have to experience
that place.
Matt (59:44):
Yes, and on this subject of the portions of hell and the
two different pieces, you've gotthe Catholic purgatory Right.
Okay, their belief in that, andthat also lines up with all the
Greek mythos of that holdingplace where you are prayed out
(01:00:07):
of or pay the priest to pray youout of, etc.
But there are other religions,such as the Mormons.
They believe something kind ofsimilar.
That's one of the reasons whythey do all their genetic
research, because you canactually go and do good deeds to
(01:00:32):
redeem one of your ancestorsOkay, right, and they're
redeeming them from that holdingplace they're redeeming them
from that holding place which isthere's no bible.
Brandon (01:00:47):
No bible to back that up, back that up and uh, so that
would be.
That would be false.
It's probably where, and Idon't know, um, I don't want to
say this, uh for sure, but it'sprobably where the catholics I
mean they pray for the dead yeah, and there's.
Matt (01:01:01):
You've also got to remember that, uh, they have 88
books right that they pull fromright.
Brandon (01:01:08):
No, yeah, they pull from a lot more.
Uh, that's uh, yeah, so anyway,we won't, we won't open that up
, but this is fascinatingconversation.
We're going to pick up rightthere next time, on the next
episode, and we just want to.
This is very real and we wantit to be very sobering.
Yes, but we're going to getinto.
The next word that we're goingto look at is Gehenna.
(01:01:30):
We're going to look at the lakeof fire.
We're going to look at eternalpunishment and everlasting fire.
So join us next time.
Bible Says Podcast.
I'm Brandon and I'm Matt.
It's Matt.
We'll see you later and thanksfor joining in.
Share and help us get the wordout about the podcast.
We'll see you next time.
The Bible says podcast.
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