June 15, 2024 • 61 mins
Join us as we unravel the controversial question: Can the church escape tribulation? In this episode of "The Bible Says Podcast," we explore the concept of the rapture and its deep biblical roots. We'll debunk misconceptions surrounding the term "rapture," tracing its origins from the Latin "rapturo" to the Greek "harpazo." Drawing insights from the stories of Elijah, Enoch, and Jesus' ascension, we establish its scriptural foundation, highlighting key passages such as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
Delving into centuries-old debates, we examine various timing theories—post-tribulation, pre-wrath, and mid-tribulation—(Check out Next Week Pretrib and some others), unpacking their scriptural basis and historical context. We confront whether the church is promised exemption from suffering, reflecting on contemporary persecution in regions like China and the Middle East. Our discussion extends to the second coming of Christ and significant end-time events from Revelation, including the marriage supper of the Lamb
We invite you to engage with us and challenge our perspectives. Explore the nuances of the pre-wrath interpretation and its contrasts with pre- and mid-tribulation theories within Revelation's prophetic timeline. Connect with us on social media at "The Bible Says Podcast" to share your thoughts and questions. Whether you're a seasoned prophecy enthusiast or new to eschatological discussions, this episode promises to offer fresh insights and provoke thought in a dynamic exchange of ideas. Don’t miss Next week for Part 2
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brandon (00:09):
What does the Bible say ?
The Bible says the Bible says.
Podcast.
All right, episode number sixMatthew Hunter, how are you?
I'm well, how about?
Matt (00:28):
you.
Brandon (00:29):
Good, we were just getting into this lively debate
we're going to have tonight andwe're like, well, we probably
should start first and we'realready debating, so this is
going to be a good one Tonight.
First of all, we want towelcome everybody into the Bible
Says podcast.
My name is Brandon Matheson,this is Matthew Hunter, matthew
Hunter and tonight we are goingto discuss the topic is there a
(00:56):
rapture of the church?
Is there a rapture of thechurch?
So we're going to pose thequestion, we're going to define
the word, we are going todescribe what we're talking
about and then we are going togive you four or five different
viewpoints that are leadingevangelical viewpoints on this
(01:17):
topic of is there a rapture.
And we're going to look at eachand individual belief system
and we're going to see does itpass the biblical smell test and
what does the Bible say?
Matt (01:27):
What does the Bible say?
And the first thing thatsomebody's going to say is that
the word rapture is not in theBible.
Brandon (01:34):
And they would absolutely be what Correct?
Correct Congratulations if youpointed that out.
Thank you for being so astute.
We appreciate it.
Matt (01:44):
Yeah, but it's not in the English translation of the Bible
, right, but it is a word fromthe Latin translation of the
Bible, rapturo or similar Right.
In the Greek we've got harpazo.
Brandon (02:02):
Okay, so the word Latin or the word rapture is not in
our English translation, so Idon't know how much you guys
know about this.
Our Bible, as English speakers,we have it translated into
English, but it comes from theoriginal manuscripts, the
(02:22):
original autographs, as theycall them.
The Old Testament was largelyHebrew, okay, ancient Hebrew,
and then portions in Aramaic,and then there's Greek, modern
Greek, koine Greek from 2,000years ago is pretty much the New
Testament, so you have threebig languages there and the word
(02:43):
rapture does not appear in ourEnglish Bible.
Okay, but there are similarwords that have the same meaning
that we translate from theoriginal manuscripts in Greek,
right, matt?
Yeah, into English.
And you said that word.
For the New Testament, wordArpazo, okay, which means you
got a definition of that.
(03:03):
For the New Testament wordArpazo, okay, which means you
got a definition of that.
Matt (03:06):
It means to catch up or snatch away quickly, right To
Suddenly catch up, yeah, andI've heard a Greek speaker
actually say it's like yousnatch someone out of the way of
harm by the hair of their head.
Brandon (03:24):
It has a suddenness to the word.
It's a quick, sudden thing,which most people that believe
in a rapture are going to saythat it happens in a moment, in
a twinkling of an eye.
We use that language and that'sbiblical language.
So I guess where we want tostart is this is not a foreign
(03:44):
concept.
It's not.
Wherever you come down on thisissue, however you see it now,
or however you see it at the endof this conversation, it's not
a stretch to say that the ideaof a sudden catching away is in
Scripture.
Matt (04:02):
Yeah, it's definitely in Scripture.
Brandon (04:05):
Let's just think for a second.
The prophet Elijah was walkingalong with Elisha.
He parted the water, theywalked along and then suddenly
the chariot of fire comes downand he's gone.
He's suddenly caught away andhis cloak is there on the ground
(04:27):
and Elisha says you know thechariot of Israel and the
horsemen thereof.
Okay, so he's suddenly caughtaway.
Another one pops in my headEnoch, enoch, that would be
Genesis.
What five?
I think Somewhere around there,I think it's Genesis 5.
What five?
(04:47):
I think that the, I think it'sjust five, and it says best.
I remember that enoch walkedwith god and he was not, for god
took him, okay, just suddencatching away.
Uh, of course, the book ofenoch that bears his name, uh,
uh, enoch one uh says that hewas caught away by God as a part
of the whole fallen angel thingfrom Genesis, chapter number 6.
(05:11):
During those times, the days ofJared and the sons of God and
the daughters of men, fromGenesis 6.
So there's a catching away ofEnoch, there's a catching away
of Elijah.
Matt (05:22):
Now, I'll throw this out.
I should probably clarify thatKing James, our modern King
James, the book of Enoch is notin there.
Brandon (05:31):
Most of our modern translations.
Yeah, yeah.
Matt (05:34):
But it is part of.
It was part of the original1611 King James.
Brandon (05:39):
Well, and you know, and the book of Enoch and maybe
we'll talk about this in futureepisodes.
I know we will when we talkabout giants in Genesis 6.
But the book of Enoch, myviewpoint on it is if you don't
want to count it as scripture, Icompletely am fine with that,
but you have to give it duerespect because it is quoted in
(06:00):
scripture Verbatim.
Okay, so Enoch 1, and there'sthree books of Enoch.
When we say Enoch is quoted inscripture, we're talking about
Enoch 1.
So do your homework.
Don't just read Enoch 2 and 3and believe everything that's in
there and say that it's all thesame.
Matt (06:16):
It's clearly written by a different author.
Brandon (06:19):
So we'll talk about Enoch later, but the idea of a
rapture or a sudden catchingaway, even though the word's not
used, the word harpazo is thesudden catching away.
There's a couple others that Icould point out.
Jesus, mount of Transfiguration, was transfigured in front of
(06:40):
them.
The ascension, he was taken upfrom them, okay, suddenly.
I didn't mean to saytransfiguration, I was talking
about the ascension is what I'mthinking of.
So and then what about inCorinthians, where Paul says I
knew a man about 14 years ago,whether in the body or out of
the body, he was caught up tothe third heaven.
(07:01):
He's referencing himself, okay,where he was caught up to the
third heaven.
He's referencing himself, okay,where he was caught up to the
third heaven.
Okay, john in Revelation,chapter 4, hears a trumpet and
is caught up into the heavenlythrone room and sees Revelation
4 and 5 and sees the lamb as ithad been slain, taking the book.
(07:21):
So I guess what we're saying isfrom Genesis all throughout to
Revelation, there is you may notcall it a rapture, and so don't
be so brutally technical thatyou can't have an idea of a
rapture, the idea of a raptureperson pre-trib, pre-wrath, pre
(07:45):
or mid-trib, whatever you arepartial-trib or partial Partial.
Matt (07:51):
Partial rapture person.
Now, if you're anall-millennial, they don't think
there is a rapture.
But I mean you can poke holesin that with-.
Brandon (07:59):
Well, all-millennials don't really believe that
there's much of anything.
Matt (08:03):
True, we might touch on that towards the end.
Brandon (08:12):
Yeah, we'll get into millennialism, but, yeah,
amillennial, my old preachersused to say.
They just say, ah, we don'tbelieve in anything.
So sorry if you're anamillennial, but we've got to be
able to poke fun at each otherand have fun.
Okay, millennial, uh, but wegot to be able to poke fun at
each other and have fun, yeah,okay yeah, so, and that's,
that's the other thing aboutpre-trib, post-trib, the
different rapture, theories,thoughts.
(08:35):
It's not something that youdivide over, yeah I have heard
some serious stories, oh, offights and people walking on the
other side of the streetbecause they wouldn't walk down
the street in a small town withsomebody who was a
post-millennial post-trib,because they were a pre or
whatever.
I mean it's gotten carried awaybefore.
Matt (08:57):
Yeah, and we're hearing the Bible Belt and people okay,
they'll go to the church acrossthe street, literally, because
the church that they're atbelieves in a post-tribulation
rapture and they don't want togo through the tribulation, so
they just walk across the streetand go to the other church.
Brandon (09:14):
I actually heard a story about that, mark Lowry,
who's the Southern Gospelcomedian guy with the Gaithers.
He was telling a story.
He was raised in an independentfundamental Baptist church and
that's kind of how I was earlyon.
And then he said my preacheralways said that he wanted to
die preaching I'm telling thestory the best I can remember
(09:36):
and he goes one Sunday morninghe got his wish and he dies
right in the middle of church.
So they have to get a newpastor.
And they got a new pastor thatwasn't a pre-tribber and so they
brought in somebody thatbelieved in post-trib, that
believed that the church wasgoing to go through the entirety
of the tribulation, and he goes.
That was a problem.
He goes.
My daddy didn't want to gothrough the tribulation, he said
.
So we got up and walked acrossthe street and joined us a
(09:57):
church that was going to gobefore the tribulation.
So I always got a big kick outof that, yeah, and that's
probably.
I mean that's probably true,very true, that's the way people
work, very true.
Let me give a definition.
So we've talked about raptureand the word rapture is not in
the Bible, but the idea ofharpazo catching away, is all
(10:18):
throughout the Bible.
Okay, a sudden catching away.
But let me say this Let me givea definition to a rapture.
So when I say biblical rapture,what I'm referring to is there's
several passages of scripturethat seem to indicate in the
future, future studies calledeschatology.
(10:40):
So there's an eschatologicalview, and that's a tough word to
say that at some point theliving and the dead believers
are, who have deceased already,will be caught up suddenly to be
with the Lord.
So that's what we're going totalk about, and I figure the
(11:14):
best place to start this is tolook at the big three, in my
opinion.
And somebody out there will say, well, there's four or five,
and there probably is, butthere's three big ones that
always get cited.
And I want to look at thesethree scriptures and we are the
Bible says podcast.
So here's the deal.
I'm going to go ahead and tellyou I believe in a
(11:36):
pre-tribulation rapture, okay,and so I'm not ashamed of that.
I think I can defend that.
But here's the deal If I wantto be faithful to the Word of
God and here's what I've triedto do throughout my ministry,
throughout my time of being aChristian and a Bible student is
to look at stuff, look attopics.
The reason we started thispodcast is to look at topics and
(11:58):
, even though I might believethem vehemently, if I can't
defend them clearly fromScripture and there's a better
explanation, then maybe I don'tneed to be believing that as
hard as I am.
So if I'm a pre-tribber and Ican't take the heat, then I need
to get out of the kitchen, okay.
And now, if you're apost-tribber, mid-tribber,
(12:19):
pre-rather, all that, don't bescared to get into your Bible
and the hard passages and lookat them, and so I don't want to
be scared as a pre-tribber.
So we're going to look at allthe tribbers.
Okay, that's what we're goingto do.
Matt (12:32):
And look at them all.
I'm not 100% sold on pre-tribmyself personally.
Brandon (12:38):
Are you serious and you're going to try and fix?
Matt (12:39):
me, I'm going to fix you, you're going to try and fix me,
but to me I can almostdisappointed in you.
I know you're highlydisappointed, but I can almost
pull a pre-trip or a mid-trip,right, okay, I I can't defend
the others, okay, I can poke toomany holes in them right, but I
(13:00):
could.
I can come closest to defendingpre-trib or mid-trib, but I
can't even come close todefending all millennials.
Brandon (13:10):
As a pre-tribber.
There have been many times thatI have been asked and talked
about in different things andI've said boy, I hope I'm right,
you know what I mean.
So you see what I'm saying andyou and I get along well and we
don't argue over it.
We don't worry about it.
Right, he's lying.
We do, we do a lot, we fight.
(13:31):
No, I pastor a church where wedon't require you to believe
hook, line and sinker everylittle point that the pastor
believes.
And I love actually teasing andcutting up with people who I
know might are sitting on thefence.
You know pre-mid, pre-rath, allthat kind of stuff, but I love
(13:52):
talking the Bible.
That's why we have this podcast.
We're going to have fun tonight.
Let's look at 1 Thessalonians.
I'll look at the 1Thessalonians If you want to
grab Corinthians and let's lookat these.
Let's let the Bible speak.
To begin with, let's look atsome of the big passages that
seem to talk about a suddencatching away of living and dead
believers caught up to meet theLord in the air.
(14:14):
So let's look at the maybe themost famous one of those
passages 1 Thessalonians, 4, 17and 18.
This is where the apostle Paul'swriting 17 and 18.
This is where the apostlePaul's writing, and here is what
he said I'm actually going toread.
Let me see here verse 16 aswell.
It says for the Lord himselfshall descend from heaven with a
(14:37):
shout, with the voice of thearchangel and with the trump of
God and the dead in Christ shallrise first.
Then we which are alive andremain, shall be caught up
together with them, the dead inthe clouds, to meet the Lord in
the air.
And so shall we ever be withthe Lord.
(14:59):
And verse 18 says wherefore,comfort one another with these
words.
So here you see the idea of theLord descending from heaven
(15:26):
with a shout, the voice ofcaught up together with them in
the clouds.
Okay, to meet the Lord in theair, and so shall we ever be
with the Lord.
Wherefore, comfort one anotherwith these words.
So the idea is there is asudden catching away, okay, of
living and dead.
Matt (15:42):
That one verse lays the foundation that there is a
rapture, there is a suddencatching away.
A sudden catching away.
Brandon (15:50):
Can I say something right here that we haven't said
either?
Okay, because somebody outthere is going to still be hung
up that you're using the wordrapture and it's not there.
Okay, I've gotten that.
Like people will just like stopsaying the word rapture, okay,
stop saying the word rapture,okay, well, stop saying the word
Trinity.
Okay, the word Trinity is notin the Bible.
But I can show you over and overand over and over where the
(16:12):
idea Jesus is baptism.
Jesus is the one gettingbaptized, right, the voice from
heaven is the Father's and theSpirit descends on him like a
dove.
Father, son, holy Spirit, boom,checkmate.
You know what I mean.
I can go to countless ones ofthose.
So it's you know.
The Father, son, the HolySpirit are there.
So you can prove the Trinity,even though the word's not there
.
And I think you can prove arapture, a sudden catching away.
(16:33):
No matter what you believe, thetiming of it is okay, whether
it comes at the end or thebeginning, or pre or post or
whatever.
There is a sudden catching away.
You got anything to add to that?
Matt (16:48):
No, I mean, that was my point.
I mean it's clearly inScripture a catching away of
some type at some point Right InScripture Right, so I agree,
let's look at another one.
You got it First Corinthians 15, 51, and 53?
.
I do Listen.
I'll tell you a mystery.
We shall not all sleep, but wewill be changed In a flash, in
(17:12):
the twinkling of an eye, at thelast trumpet, For the trumpet
will sound, the dead will beraised imperishable, and we will
be changed, For the perishablemust clothe itself with the
imperishable and the mortal withimmortality.
Brandon (17:25):
Okay, so there again, we will not all sleep.
That is a word for be dead ordie.
We're not all sleep, but weshall all be changed.
Okay, so we're going to bechanged.
Moment and a twinkling of aneye at the last trump, for the
trumpet shall sound and the deadshould be raised incorruptible.
We should be changed.
(17:46):
So there's a catching away anda changing, and most bible folks
would, theologians and studierswould say that that you know
you receive your glorified bodyat that point.
Okay, so that is.
Those are the two big.
First thessalonians, firstcorinthians describe an event
where there's a caught up and achange that happens.
It's dead believers, followedby the living believers who are
(18:09):
alive on the earth.
I want to look at one more.
Matt (18:12):
You got something to add to that.
The apostles used these verses,these thoughts on a rapture, to
give people hope.
The apostles do.
Brandon (18:27):
And.
Matt (18:28):
I've heard several people that lash out against a rapture,
there's no rapture, et cetera,saying that it's escapism or
it's things like that.
And we're doing the same thingthat the apostles were doing
we're using it to give peoplehope.
Brandon (18:50):
Well, I mean, but here's the deal.
There's so many events in endtime prophecy that have to be
wrapped up and the church has tosomehow get to heaven to be
married to Christ at themarriage supper of the Lamb, and
all these future events, and ifyou believe, you cannot say
that there's no catching away.
(19:10):
I'm sorry, I don't accept that.
1 Corinthians, 1 Thessalonians,the book of Revelation the idea
is there that one day.
Okay, we're going to look atanother one here in a second,
just because it come to my mind,but I want to look at
Revelation first.
This is what we call a secondcoming passage.
Okay, clearly, um, jesus, hisfirst coming was his incarnation
(19:32):
as a baby.
He died.
And then we know that there'san event, um, called the coming
of the lord, or the perugia ingreek, and it is the uh coming
is referred to often and that'swhen he comes back at the end of
the seven-year tribulationperiod on the earth and he puts
Satan and chains him up for athousand years and all this kind
(19:55):
of stuff.
And I know there's somebody outthere probably listening to
this that is like, well, that'sall you know.
That's cryptic language andthen you're not supposed to take
that literally and all thatkind of stuff.
We'll talk about that later.
But there is a second coming,okay.
So the argument against therapture is when people say it's
escapism, they're saying there'snothing, there's no event prior
(20:18):
to the coming of the Lord atthe end, so that you're not
going to get out of here earlyand escape the wrath and the
tribulation, all that kind ofstuff.
So, yeah, we'll talk about thatbecause we're going to look at
these things.
But I want to look at Revelation19.
This is a second coming.
Jesus is coming back.
He came first as the Lamb ofGod.
He is coming back to put torescue Israel, okay.
(20:42):
He's coming back to rescue hispeople, israel, to rescue Israel
.
Okay.
He's coming back to rescue hispeople, israel.
He's coming back to put downSatan, to set up his kingdom.
He's coming back this time as awarrior and the king.
Okay, king of kings, lord oflords.
Here's what it says inRevelation 19.
And I saw heaven opened andbehold a white horse, and he
that sat upon him was calledFaithful and True, capitalized,
(21:04):
and in righteousness he dothjudge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame offire and on his head were many
crowns and he had the namewritten that no man knew but
himself, and he was clothed witha vesture dipped in blood, and
his name is called the Word ofGod, capitalized.
It's a title.
And the armies which were inheaven followed him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen,white and clean, and out of his
(21:26):
mouth goeth a sharp sword thatwith it he should smite the
nations and he shall rule themwith a rod of iron, and he
treadeth the winepress of thefierceness and wrath of Almighty
God, and he hath on his vestureand on his thigh a name written
King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Jesus is coming back as thatvictor, that warrior, that king
(21:48):
of kings and Lord of lords.
So here's my question okay,matt?
So we look at 1 Thessalonians,we look at 1 Corinthians 15, and
then we look at Revelation 19.
Revelation 19, we know, is thesecond coming, okay?
So here's where the debate getskind of hairy, okay, okay.
So here's where the debate getskind of hairy, okay, people say
(22:25):
so.
These passages that we'relooking at, are they describing
one event, which is Jesus comingback as the warrior, and
somewhere in that same vicinityof time, the catching away of
the believers, okay?
Or are all these passagesdescribing multiple events, okay
, and some of you would say,well, no, it's not because
there's, you know, it doesn'tsay there's multiple events, and
they'll say that's where theythrow the term around.
Well, I don't believe in asecret rapture or a secret
escape plan, okay, so, yeah, sothat is why we're here to debate
(22:50):
.
Are these passages that we'relooking at?
We picked two or three of thebig ones, right?
Yeah, are we talking about oneevent, the second coming and its
surrounding timeframe, or arewe talking about sometime
earlier and prior to that?
Is there going to be a, if youwill, a secret rapture?
Matt (23:07):
Okay, A secret catching away.
Brandon (23:16):
I don't like calling it a secret rapture, because
everybody is going to know ithappened.
There is a catching awaysuddenly, of truck drivers and
car drivers and pilots andsoldiers and fast food workers
taking your.
You know, suddenly somebody'sgone.
It'll be hard to keep thatunder wraps.
I would say if there's a suddencatching away, now there are,
(23:41):
and I don't know if you want todo more than this, but we can
kind of wing it.
Okay, in my mind, in myexperience as well, there's four
viewpoints on this.
That are the big ones.
Okay, so there are people whobelieve, yes, there are a
rapture.
And I want to say this thestats say that most, most
(24:03):
evangelical Christians, believein some sort of a catching away
and a rapture.
And I would have to say, Ithink scripture bears that out.
Is there a rapture?
Yes, when is it?
That's what we're going to talkabout, okay, and can I be 100%
sure?
No, I think I can be fairlyconfident, but I mean, you know
(24:24):
what I mean.
Okay, so there's four big views.
Three of the views see thescriptures that we just read as
two separate events.
So there's a second coming atthe end of the seven-year
tribulation, near tribulation,but before that at some point
(24:48):
there is a rapture, a suddencatching away of the church
prior to the second coming.
So there's a second coming, butthere's a previous event.
Okay, the camps, if you willthat believe this, are the
pre-tribulation rapture crowd.
Okay, which I proudly attend,right.
Okay, the mid-tribulationrapture viewpoint okay, which.
How's that fence you're sittingon?
(25:10):
I'm just kidding, just kidding,I'm going to give you some.
I'm going to give you some, allright.
So, and there is the pre-wrath.
Okay, you're laughing at me now.
Okay, you're laughing at me now.
Okay, so these three, theydon't see eye to eye, okay, but
they all agree that there is arapture event before the second
(25:35):
coming.
So the second coming is at theend of the seven years and they
believe that it's sometime wellbefore the second coming.
So I hope that makes sense Pre,mid and pre-wrath.
Okay, those are the big threeviewpoints.
Pre-wrath kind of come onstrong here the last few decades
.
And then there is one viewpoint, so that's the first three.
(25:55):
They kind of believe that theevent happens earlier, before
the second coming.
But there's one, and I will saythis it is probably, if you
look through history, the mostheld viewpoint.
Okay, yeah, this was the churchfathers that some of you cite
like crazy, you know.
Some of the church fathers, someof the church, not all of them
(26:16):
Not all of them, you're right,but predominantly yeah, okay,
okay, and the church, dominatedby Rome, definitely held this
view of the post-tribulationrapture.
Okay, they believe there was acatching away of the living and
the dead and they believe thatit happened sometime around the
(26:39):
second coming or at the secondcoming.
This is what you callpost-tribulation belief in
rapture.
So this is the belief thatJesus is going to come back at
the end of the seven years andwhen he comes back he's going to
catch away his bride.
The saved, those who are aliveand remain, and those who are
(27:00):
dead are going to be caught upin change at that moment.
They believe it's going tohappen at the end of the seven
years, so that the church,excuse me is going to go through
the entirety of the seven-yeartribulation.
Any comments on those fourviewpoints, matt, before we kind
of jump into defining those?
Matt (27:22):
No, we can go ahead and get into defining those and
figure out which one we're goingto hit first.
Brandon (27:29):
Okay, let's look at.
First of all, let's look atthese first three.
Let's look at let me see here,let's look at post-trib Okay.
(27:50):
So post-trib folks who believethat the rapture, believe in a
rapture, but they believe ithappens at the end of the
tribulation period.
Okay, let's look at some oftheir arguments.
Okay, I do not and have notsupported this viewpoint, but
I've got to be able to look atsome of their arguments.
Okay, I do not and have notsupported this viewpoint, but
I've got to be able to look atit and see if it has merit.
(28:11):
So I want to look at it.
Post-trib arguments and to dothis, you got to listen to some
post-tribbers.
You got to read somepost-tribbers and see, listen to
.
One of my favorite things is togo onto YouTube and listen to.
I love debates on theologicaltopics between two really smart
(28:31):
people grounded in the Word whosee things differently, and
they'll tear each other apart,but do it all in brotherly love,
right?
So we love that.
Post-trib arguments okay, one ofthe big ones that always gets
cited is Jesus never promisedthat the church is not going to
go through tribulation.
So you people that saying thathe's there's tribulation been
(28:53):
all throughout the church.
Okay, 11 out of 12 of theapostles were martyred.
The only one that didn't die amartyr's death was John.
So but so all these martyred,they killed Jesus.
I mean the church was verypersecuted.
Okay.
So they'll say, you know?
I mean they say you, americanchurch, you know you're.
(29:14):
You're kind of feeding yourselfa line that you're going to
escape all the tribulationbecause I mean, look at China,
look at you know, if you're aChristian in China, look at if
you're a Christian, you knowcertain parts of the Middle East
, things like that.
Okay, so there's a lot oftribulation in the church.
That's one thing that theyoften point out.
God never told you he ain'tgoing to go through it.
(29:35):
So that's what they'll say,because I've talked to him.
Any thoughts on that?
Matt (29:40):
No, and he never says that you're not going through.
Now he does say he won't sufferyou to see wrath.
Brandon (29:49):
Right, we'll talk about that.
Yeah, that's often cited by alot of these viewpoints.
Yeah, okay so, but you know,and I agree with that, the
church is not shielded fromtribulation.
No, the church is not shieldedfrom tribulation.
Matt (30:04):
No, and that's a lot of the places where it talks about
tribulation and persecution.
Brandon (30:14):
Right.
Matt (30:14):
It uses the same word for a stumbling block.
Right, okay, you're going tohave stumbling blocks.
Brandon (30:22):
You're going to have trials and tribulations, paul
talks about them, peter talksabout them, peter talks about it
.
Life, yep.
And I'll say this you are goingto have those.
He never said he's going toremove you from that.
Let me say this too One of thethings that has been pointed out
(30:42):
in arguments defending apost-tribulation rapture is that
the 1 Thessalonians that wejust read 1 Thessalonians 4.17,
it says that we'll be caught upto meet the Lord in the air.
Okay, and they'll point out yes,you'll be caught up to meet the
Lord in the air, but nowhere inthe passage does it say that
(31:04):
you are going to be taken toheaven.
It says that you're caught upto meet the Lord in the air, but
nowhere in the passage does itsay that you are going to be
taken to heaven.
It says that you're caught upto meet the Lord in the air.
So now a post-tribulation like?
You've got to think throughthis right.
So, and I've talked to some ofthem, so literally, what they
believe is that Jesus is comingback at the end of the
tribulation, but shortly beforemost of them will say it like
(31:25):
this shortly before Jesus comesback on the white horse leading
the armies of heaven, which isus, that there will be a
catching away.
So it's up, we meet him in theair and we welcome him like we
would welcome a king in thehalls of the court, and we're
(31:45):
welcoming him in the air as hecomes down, and then we come
down with him.
That's how.
And let me say this If you'regoing to believe in
post-tribulation, you have tosay that you have to believe
that because the Bible is soclear that you at some point go
up and that Jesus comes down.
So if you're going to put it atthe same time, you got to go up
(32:07):
and down you have to have it atthe same time or pretty close.
Matt (32:10):
I think one of the reasons they probably do that another
one of your bullet points isthey don't want to believe that
people are saved after therapture happens.
Brandon (32:26):
Yeah, and as a pre-tribber, because I put the
timing of the rapture before thetribulation.
When you ask me, are peoplesaved during the tribulation,
I'm like heck.
Matt (32:38):
yeah, they are Biggest revival the world's ever seen.
Yeah, it's clearly laid out,starting in like chapter six of
Revelation, that people arebeing saved.
That's right.
Brandon (32:48):
That's right.
That's very, very true.
Let me say something here as welook down through these points
and listen if you're apost-tribber you would probably
be here and say things differentand I'm trying to be faithful
to their belief system andpresent what they believe in a
(33:12):
kind way, a gracious way,because we're brothers and
sisters in Christ.
But let me say this I might notdefend it as vehemently as you
would or could, but these aresome of the key arguments and
it's hard to defend a point thatmay not be your own, but we're
trying to do our best here, okay.
Now, one thing that getspointed out as well is that
(33:35):
people are saved all throughoutRevelation, chapter 6 to 18.
Yeah, okay, and that kind ofgoes to your point that people
are saved, your point thatpeople are saved.
If you look at the events fromRevelation 6 to Revelation 18,
which are the trumpets and theseals and the bowls, the
judgments okay, 21 of them yousee there are people saved more
(33:58):
than you can count.
Okay, and they're saved.
Many are martyred, but we doknow that some will live through
that tribulation, but they getsaved during that time.
Okay, so they will say thatpeople are saved all throughout
Revelation 6 through 18, andthere's no reason.
Because a lot of times inRevelation it'll say the elect
(34:19):
or those who endured the end aresaved, and all this kind of
stuff in this language is inRevelation.
And so they'll say there's noreason to say that that's a
different group of people, thatthe church ends at a rapture way
back here and that tribulationcrowd is called the elect.
They're the people of God andthere's no reason to
differentiate them becausethey're saved, clearly, and
going to heaven as well.
(34:39):
So they're like don't drawbelief systems where it doesn't
say so.
That's one of their defenses.
I'm probably not saying thatthe best.
Matt (34:49):
Yeah, and that's one of the things.
There's no reason todifferentiate between the two in
their minds.
Why are the people that aresaved during Revelation
different?
Than us during the church age.
Brandon (35:02):
Right Now, let me say this Some of them will say that
we and we've talked about this.
If you're a post-tribber, somewill say that we read a secret
rapture into the text.
That's not there, okay.
That we're reading preconceivednotions into the text, all
right.
And they'll say youpre-tribbers and some of you
(35:22):
other folks, you're justbelieving Darby and CI Schofield
, and guess what guys?
Look what I have here.
It is a Schofield referenceBible.
So there you go, guilty ascharged.
Some of his notes I do notagree with I'll just go on
record but a lot of them I do,and I've used it for so long
(35:46):
growing up that I'm used to thatstudy Bible and so I just use
it because I want to.
And so people, yeah, I likewhat I like, right.
But people say as well thatwe're reading it in to the text
and sometimes and I'm not sayingthat we're doing that, I'm just
saying sometimes Christians canread preconceived notions into
(36:09):
the text.
So we got to be careful and youknow, I get it, I get it.
So we want to be.
We want to present yourviewpoint very well.
Now I want to point.
I want to be slightly criticalof you, though.
Okay, I want to be slightlycritical of most
post-tribulation believers thatI have believed in.
Okay, now let me say this toyou Couple things if I'm playing
(36:31):
devil's advocate here.
Okay, I want to say this.
So, the millennial kingdom, allright.
First, a lot of post-tribbersdon't believe in a millennium,
okay, because they believe thatthe millennium has happened and
started already or is alreadycomplete.
A lot of post-tribbers believein what we call preterism, where
(36:53):
a lot of the eschatologypassages that we go to are
already fulfilled history.
So that's what we callpreterism, okay, so you can get
into that a lot.
And so you know, some believethat the millenniums already
happened, preterism.
(37:13):
And let me say this to youthere might be a fundamental
difference between you and I andI don't want to speak for you,
matt, but just me personally.
Hermeneutically, I'm a biblicalliteralist, okay, and so I take
the Bible literally and I thinkit's pretty easy to figure out
where God is being figurative.
(37:33):
But a lot of post-trib andpost-millennial folks fall in
the hermeneutically figurativecamp and they don't always take
Scripture as literal as I would.
Matt (37:51):
They don't take it as literal and, especially when it
comes to Revelation Right, theywill just tell you point blank
that it is not to be takenliteral.
That it is, they're like no, no, no, that's not literal.
I was like, well, so thepassage right up above that?
(38:13):
You told me that that's literalRight, but the one right below
it is figurative.
Brandon (38:19):
Cherry picking yeah.
You know, Now, is therefigurative language in
Revelation?
Yes, yes, a lot.
So you have to read it and youhave to read it with discernment
.
But I think you've got to havethat conversation.
Is God saying this literally,okay?
Is this literal, okay, or is itnot?
Is this a figurative, or abeast with seven heads and ten
horns and all this kind of stuff, or is it figurative?
(38:41):
Well, you know, a lot of thatlanguage is figurative.
Or a beast with seven heads andten horns and all this kind of
stuff, or is it figurative?
Well, you know, a lot of thatlanguage is figurative.
Okay, it's representative of agovernment or whatever, and you
can use your God-given brain todifferentiate a lot of that
stuff, okay.
But you know, when John says hewas caught up in the throne
(39:04):
room and he sees the Lamb of Godas he had been slain, I don't
think that's figurative.
I think he literally went toheaven, to the throne room of
God, and saw the throne room ofGod and Jesus there and all the
living creatures surrounding thethrone and all the angels.
I believe that's literal, okay.
So how you interpret the Bibleis going to determine your
eschatology, okay.
(39:25):
So I just want to say that.
But I want to say, before wemove on from post-trib, I want
to say this to you If youbelieve in post-trib, let me
pose you a question Are youready?
Okay, I'm ready.
All right, the millennium hasus.
Hold on.
Let me back up.
The millennium has believerswho have a glorified body, okay.
(39:48):
So if you believe in pre-trib,post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath,
somewhere before the millennialreign, the thousand-year reign
of Christ, there's the raptureand you are changed into your
glorified body.
If you believe in a post-trib,you believe it's down to the
last second before themillennium starts.
If you believe in a post-trib,you believe it's down to the
last second before themillennium starts.
Well, in the millennium we findhuman beings, not in a
(40:11):
glorified body, who arebelievers, going into the
millennium and populating theearth during the millennium,
having babies, getting married.
Life expectancy and part of thecurse is rolled back.
If a child dies at 100 yearsold, the Bible says he was just
a baby.
I'm paraphrasing, but basicallylife expectancy extends, so
(40:32):
people live and die, and all ofthose people came from believers
who entered the millennium.
So here's the deal If allbelievers are raptured right
before the millennium starts, atthe second coming, who are the
human beings that populate themillennium, and have babies.
Matt (40:53):
That's a good question.
Brandon (40:54):
Yeah, I'd love to hear Post-tribulationists.
Please send us an email or sendus a comment, and I ask that
honestly because that is oneproblem that I have post-trib,
because ain't nobody to populatethe millennium.
You've got those of us who areruling and reigning with Christ
in our glorified bodies.
So who's having babies?
(41:14):
Okay, honest question.
Honest question.
All right, let's move on.
Let's look at pre-wrath.
Take pre-wrath.
What do pre-wrathers believe?
Matt, pre wrath.
Matt (41:25):
Take pre-wrath what do pre-wrathers believe Matt?
So there are a few judgments inthe book of Revelations, the
bold judgments mainly, that areconsidered where God is pouring
out his wrath upon the earth.
During these judgments,millions and millions of people
(41:47):
die.
Brandon (41:48):
Okay, and that's during the time of the tribulation,
because there's the seventrumpets, seven seals.
Matt (41:55):
Seven trumpets, seven trills Yep.
Brandon (41:57):
Yeah, and then seven bowls or vials.
Matt (41:59):
So that is somewhere close to the midpoint, okay, I'm
assuming, because it doesn'texactly give you the time frame.
Okay, and it also again goesback to where you're talking
about how you read the Bible.
Okay, so is Revelation.
Is it read linear frombeginning to end, right?
(42:23):
Or does it have a cyclicalnature?
That's a big word.
What does that mean?
That means that there arepossibly more than one cycle.
Brandon (42:35):
Like a bicycler.
Matt (42:36):
Yes, a bicycler, so there are more than one.
There are overlapping events inRevelation where one section of
it overlaps with anothersection of it.
Brandon (42:49):
Right, and that's a good point.
And this is a debated topicabout Revelation, because is it
to be read?
Chronologically, is it to read?
I heard somebody talking aboutthis one time and they said
suppose you were to write thehistory of World War II.
Okay, but you presented onepart of your book is World War
(43:12):
II at the same time, but fromAmerican perspective.
Yeah, but then at the same timeyou're going to write it from a
German perspective, then you'regoing to write it from a
Russian perspective, then you'regoing to write it from a
Japanese perspective.
You see what I'm saying?
Yeah, it's all going to lookdifferent and you've got to
overlap them at the same time.
Now, personally, I believe thatrevelation builds upon one
(43:37):
another, but there areoverlapping times.
Some viewpoints are from earth,some viewpoints are from heaven
, and I think there'sparenthetical pauses and
chapters that are kind of inbetween and thoughts to
interject while all this isgoing on.
So it's a lot, it's a lot, butit's fun.
Matt (43:56):
Man, I love Revelation.
It is an awesome book.
Brandon (43:58):
Oh it's man, it's one of my favorites.
Matt (44:00):
I mean honestly, this stuff here is prophecy, this
Right Let us know out there, ifyou like this prophecy because
Matt and I, if you knew us,we're prophecy nuts.
Brandon (44:12):
Okay, we love it, we talk, we were talking earlier.
We go down rabbit holes andrabbit trails and down the yeah,
we'll chase those crazythoughts.
Matt (44:24):
We go down rabbit holes that we probably would never put
out to anybody else, because wedon't want you to make fun of
us, but anyway.
Brandon (44:32):
So pre-wrath believes, let me, because I'm not a
pre-wrather, okay, until a fewyears ago I didn't even know
what this was.
But basically they believe thatthe tribulation period is seven
years long.
Right, really bad things happenduring that seven years, but
not all of the things happeningare the wrath of God until it
(44:56):
reaches a certain point.
Am I right in that?
Yeah, okay, so if you readRevelation, chapter 6 through 18
, there are three kind ofsections.
Okay, so there's the seals,seven-sealed book.
Then the seven-sealed bookunlocks the seven trumpets.
(45:18):
Seven trumpets unlock the sevenbowls, or the vials, which
means bowls, or the vials, whichmeans bowls.
Matt (45:25):
And right in the middle of there there's a verse and I
didn't write it down, butthere's a verse in Revelation
that literally says he to Simeon, stick in the sickle and reap
the earth Right.
And that is their point ofrapture, that they're portraying
(45:54):
there.
Brandon (45:54):
Well, I've got it right here.
Revelation, I think, 14, itsays and I looked and behold a
white cloud.
Upon the cloud cloud, one satlike unto the son of man, having
on his head a golden crown andin his hand a sharp sickle.
And another angel came out ofthe temple crying with a loud
voice to him.
That sat on the cloud, thrustin the sickle and reap, for the
time has come for thee to reap,for the harvest of the earth is
(46:15):
ripe.
And he that sat on the cloudthrust in his sickle on the
earth and the earth was reaped.
Is that what you're referencing?
Okay, and then Revelation 15 iswhere the bowl judgments begin
to happen, and this is wherepre-wrathers base it.
They believe that the raptureis that thrusting into the
sickle.
And Revelation 15 says, verse 7, and one of the four beasts
(46:37):
gave unto the seven angels sevengolden vials or bowls, full
keyword here of the wrath of Godwho liveth forever and ever.
So, kind of the way Iunderstand, pre-wrath is
different than mid-trib, becausemid-trib would put it like dead
center in the middle of thetribulation, right at the
(46:59):
abomination of desolation.
We'll look at that.
Right at the abomination ofdesolation.
We'll look at that.
But pre-rathers put thetribulation just prior to the
bold judgments because that'swhen the wrath of God is coming.
So they don't see the sevenseals and all those natural
disasters and they don't see thetrumpets and all of that and
all the death and destruction.
They don't see that as thewrath of God.
They see that as just thecataclysmic natural events of
(47:23):
God, kind of building up to itthat we're building up to the
wrath of God being poured out.
Matt (47:29):
I believe at this point that the Antichrist is already
on the scene.
Brandon (47:34):
I believe so because I think he's here for the whole
seven years.
He may not have as prevalent ofa.
I think he's part of theleadership early on because the
Bible says he confirms thecovenant for a week for seven
years and he's part of that.
But then we see him fullcontrol by the midpoint, because
he's control of yeah, but so,to put it and if you're a
(47:55):
pre-wrather, correct us if we'rewrong Okay, but you see the
rapture happening prior to thebold judgments, predominantly.
And it does say let me say thisit does say in verse 7 that the
seven angels were given sevenbowls full of the wrath of God.
Okay, so the wrath of God isbeing poured out.
So if you believe that's thebeginning of the wrath of God
(48:15):
poured out, or what the wrath ofGod is being poured out at the
bowls, the bowls are the wrath.
Okay, so that's the pre-wrathview.
Is that a fair assessment ofwhat they believe?
Matt (48:27):
That is pretty close.
Okay, I mean, that's the basicsof it.
Brandon (48:31):
So let me stop right here.
Let me ask you this what do youthink of the post-trib view and
what do you think of thepre-wrath view?
What's your thought?
Matt (48:45):
trib view and what do you think of the pre-rath view?
What's your thought?
So, post trib, I can tend topoke a lot of holes in.
Okay, so there are a couplethings that happen, that happen
while we're in heaven, whileChristians are in heaven,
they're like and through, likethe marriage supper of the Lamb
(49:08):
and the judgment seat of Christand the judgment seat of Christ.
Those particular pieces have tohappen, okay, so you don't have
time for them to happen.
Brandon (49:19):
if you believe in post-trip, you don't have time
for them to happen at post-trip.
So you have a lot of problemswith post-trip.
You don't have time for them tohappen at post-trip.
Matt (49:24):
So you have a lot of problems with post-trip, I do.
I do have a lot of problemswith post-trip, okay.
Brandon (49:29):
And I concur with that.
I think it's the hardeststandpoint to defend.
Yeah, that's my thought.
Matt (49:36):
It really is the hardest one to defend, right, yeah,
hardest one to defend, yeah, itthe marriage supper and the
pieces that go along with andalign with a Jewish wedding,
right, right.
So those pieces don't lendthemselves to a post-trip Right
(50:04):
and it's clearly, clearlymirrors and it even calls it the
marriage supper of the Lamb,etc.
In the Bible.
Those pieces you don't haveroom for, those in a Jewish
traditional wedding.
Brandon (50:19):
Right, and there's a lot of.
I think what Matt's referringto is there's a lot of symbology
from John 14, in my father'shouse are many mansions or many
rooms and all that kind of stuff.
There's a lot of language thatequates the coming of Jesus for
his bride as to a Jewish wedding, and just a lot of bleed over
(50:40):
that.
You need some time for it todevelop, and seven years is the
perfect time frame for it todevelop, in my opinion.
So you're saying that you're apre-tribber because you need all
seven years.
Is that what you're saying?
Matt (50:57):
Honestly, the Jewish wedding tradition is one of the
strongest reasons for me to leantowards the pre-trib.
So you're coming, yeah, I'vegot you.
I can pull off pre-trib.
I can pull off.
Honestly, I could come close todoing the post-wrath.
Brandon (51:17):
The post-wrath or pre-wrath, pre-wrath, pre-wrath
yeah, sorry, all right, sorry.
So give us your thoughts onpre-wrath, pre-wrath, pre-wrath
yes, all right, sorry, not preso give us your thoughts on
pre-wrath.
Matt (51:40):
Okay, so with the pre-wrath, I mean, you do
clearly have in Revelations anangel, or, technically, you have
the cloud rider.
Okay, you've listened toMissler who's the cloud rider?
Right?
Okay, you've got a cloud rider.
Okay, you've listened toMissler who's the cloud rider?
Right?
Okay, you've got a cloud riderin Revelation sticking in a
sickle and reaping the harvestfrom the earth.
So, if I'm defending this, whatis the harvest of the earth?
(52:01):
Right, you know, jesus saysthat the workers are few and the
harvest is ripe, right?
Brandon (52:09):
So there's several points.
Matt (52:11):
So there's several points that are very good for a
pre-wrath.
I got you Okay In a linearreading of that.
Brandon (52:21):
Well, let's look next.
And lastly, on this episodeepisode, we'll look at mid-trib.
Okay, mid-trib is, it's notquite pre-wrath.
A lot of times, if you equatepre-trib or mid-tribbers and
pre-wrathers, they'll say no, no, no, we're not the same.
Okay, because a mid-trib ismore middle of the tribulation
(52:42):
prior to the abomination ofdesolation.
So let's look at that realquick.
So, basically, mid-trib.
They believe that, like inMatthew 24, verse 22.
I don't know if you got that,matthew 24, 22.
When Jesus is given his OlivetDiscourse to his disciples, is
(53:03):
given his Olivet Discourse tohis disciples, he talks about
during this time there is theelect.
Okay, do you have that?
Matt (53:12):
I do.
Do you want 22 or 21 and 22?
Brandon (53:14):
Read 21 and 22,.
That's fine.
Matt (53:16):
Okay, so For then shall be great tribulation, such as was
not since the beginning of theworld to this time.
No, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should beshortened, there should no
flesh be saved.
But for the elect's sake, thosedays shall be shortened.
Okay for the elect.
Brandon (53:36):
So they'll look at that word elect and they'll talk
about that's the church.
And so at the midpoint itbecomes the great tribulation
and I I actually would agreewith with this.
From that, this point, there isa seven year final um period
(53:57):
period of time.
People often call the sevenyears the tribulation period.
I don't like that.
Okay, because I don't think theBible calls it great
tribulation in the last threeand a half years.
Okay, it doesn't say the wholetime's, you know the tribulation
.
It says that it's the greattribulation's last three and a
(54:18):
half years.
Okay, so, but we know theperiod of time is a seven-year
period from Daniel 9.
It's a week of years.
So I call it Daniel's 70th weekand people usually look at you
like you're an idiot when youcall it that.
It's also referred to as thetime of Jacob's trouble in the
Old Testament.
Okay, and so there is aseven-year timeframe.
(54:40):
That is.
You know you cannot.
If you study Daniel andRevelation seriously, you're
gonna come up with a seven-yearperiod, but I do.
If you're gonna be technical.
The last three and a half yearsare called the Great
Tribulation.
So a mid-tribber looks at thisand says, well, the elect are
there and the days are shortened, okay.
So they believe that therapture occurs at the midpoint,
(55:04):
because if you read Matthew,chapter 24, he's talking about
the elect and he's saying, whenyou see this run, and so they
believe that the actual greattribulation is the wrath of God
being poured out, and so thingsare bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.
(55:26):
And then great tribulation hasnever been like this.
The Bible says that there'snever been days like this in the
last three and a half years.
So that's why mid-trib folkstake that viewpoint that at that
point is the rapture, or thecatching up of those who are
alive and remain, and the deadto the Lord.
Matt (55:46):
And they also connect that to the Revelation 12 with the
woman Right who is given thewings of the great eagle and
moved to the desert for aprotected place for a time Times
, and half a time, half a timeRight, so basically for three
(56:08):
and a half years, right.
Brandon (56:12):
So they also equate that piece to that
mid-tribulation portion, right,they also look at Revelation 11,
which is which covers theportion of the two witnesses,
the 42 months.
Revelation 10 and 11 are themidpoint of the tribulation.
(56:33):
So that kind of lets you in alittle bit on my thinking that
you are building in achronological way in some ways
throughout Revelation.
So I mean it does gochronologically from seals to
trumpets, to bowls.
So there is a chronologicalprogression, but Revelation 11
(56:54):
would be the midpoint.
And then you see this verse,verse 15 of Revelation 11, it
says and the seventh angelsounded.
The seventh is the final one,or the last trump, right, and
there were great voices inheaven saying the kingdoms of
this world will become thekingdoms of our Lord and of his
Christ, and he shall reignforever and ever.
And so you have this point,that is, there's a trumpet sound
(57:17):
, and so then the mid-trib willsay look, we're at the midpoint
of the tribulation.
The trumpet's sounding, it'sthe seventh trumpet.
1 Corinthians 15.52 says at thelast trump, the dead in Christ
will rise first.
Okay, so that's where.
Okay, and can I feasibly, in mymind, go there?
Yeah, a little bit I can say,okay, I may not agree, but can I
(57:44):
see where you're going?
Can I track with you?
Matt (57:47):
Yeah, a little bit, and that's generally my take on it,
okay.
Brandon (57:53):
So let me ask you this, as someone who has looked
heavily at pre-tribulationalismthat we're going to cover in the
next episode, looked heavily atpre-tribulationalism that we're
going to cover in the nextepisode, but you've also looked
at all these other ones.
Why?
What would differentiate youfrom being pre-wrath and
(58:13):
mid-trib?
What do you see as thedifference of those?
Matt (58:19):
I personally don't really see a lot of difference between
the two.
Brandon (58:26):
You think they make a lot of the same arguments.
Matt (58:27):
They make a lot of the same arguments.
And you, in order to do afull-on mid-trib or pre-wrath,
you almost have to read theRevelation shifts at chapter 12.
Okay, you get more of aheavenly perspective and then
(58:50):
you get into more figurativelanguage, right?
Okay, so there's a shift thathappens and it's almost like
that shift for mid-trib,pre-wrath.
You have to overlay the nextseveral chapters.
I got you Over what justhappened.
(59:10):
I got you.
Brandon (59:11):
Okay, one of the final things that I'll say about
mid-trib is that I've seen thempoint out Matthew 24, verse 29,
that says verse 29 that saysimmediately after the
tribulation of those days shallthe sun be darkened and the moon
shall not give her light andthe stars shall fall from heaven
and the powers of the heavenshall be shaken.
So they see a dividing point inthe tribulation period, or I
(59:35):
should.
I just said I would don't likethat term the seven years that
at the midpoint jesus referredto this as tribulation.
But after the tribulation ofthose days it gets really bad.
There'll be great tribulation.
Now I've heard him point thatout.
But in verse 22, he says isgreat tribulation.
So I don't know why 29 is greattribulation.
(59:56):
So that argument's a littleweak and kind of spinning around
.
Matthew 24 is if you don'thermeneutically break it down
right, you're going to get offway in the woods.
So we've looked at the word.
Rapture is not in the Bible.
We concede that.
But the idea of a rapture is.
We've looked atpost-tribulation rapture, which
means they believe thetribulation happens at the end
(01:00:18):
of the tribulation.
We've looked at mid-tribulation, which those folks believe that
it happens at the midpoint ofthe tribulation.
Then we've looked at thepre-wrath folks that think the
tribulation or the rapturehappens.
I think I said tribulationthree times.
The rapture happens post or midor pre-wrath, which is
pre-bowls of judgment.
(01:00:39):
Okay, so here's what we're goingto do.
We're going to sign off forthis episode and we want you to
dig into this.
We love comments, questions,things like that.
Don't forget to share thebroadcast and help us get the
word out for the Bible Sayspodcast.
What we're going to do in thenext episode is we are going to
take a hard look atpre-tribulationalism and we are
(01:01:01):
going to see if it stands thetest and I'm going to be put to
the test because this is my view.
Okay, so I want to defend it.
I want to defend it to you.
If there's holes to be poked init, poke away.
And, matt, we're going to talk,hash all this stuff out and
just have a good time.
We appreciate you tuning in.
(01:01:22):
You got anything to say, matt?
Matt (01:01:23):
No, Guys, just give us a like and follow on all the major
social media platforms Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube,
pretty much everywhere we are.
The Bible Says Podcast.
Good deal, Good deal.
Brandon (01:01:37):
You guys have a good night and we'll talk to you soon
.
The Bible Says Podcast andwe'll talk to you soon.
What does the Bible say ?
The Bible says the Bible says.
Podcast.
All right, episode number sixMatthew Hunter, how are you?
I'm well, how about?
Matt (00:28):
you.
Brandon (00:29):
Good, we were just getting into this lively debate
we're going to have tonight andwe're like, well, we probably
should start first and we'realready debating, so this is
going to be a good one Tonight.
First of all, we want towelcome everybody into the Bible
Says podcast.
My name is Brandon Matheson,this is Matthew Hunter, matthew
Hunter and tonight we are goingto discuss the topic is there a
(00:56):
rapture of the church?
Is there a rapture of thechurch?
So we're going to pose thequestion, we're going to define
the word, we are going todescribe what we're talking
about and then we are going togive you four or five different
viewpoints that are leadingevangelical viewpoints on this
(01:17):
topic of is there a rapture.
And we're going to look at eachand individual belief system
and we're going to see does itpass the biblical smell test and
what does the Bible say?
Matt (01:27):
What does the Bible say?
And the first thing thatsomebody's going to say is that
the word rapture is not in theBible.
Brandon (01:34):
And they would absolutely be what Correct?
Correct Congratulations if youpointed that out.
Thank you for being so astute.
We appreciate it.
Matt (01:44):
Yeah, but it's not in the English translation of the Bible
, right, but it is a word fromthe Latin translation of the
Bible, rapturo or similar Right.
In the Greek we've got harpazo.
Brandon (02:02):
Okay, so the word Latin or the word rapture is not in
our English translation, so Idon't know how much you guys
know about this.
Our Bible, as English speakers,we have it translated into
English, but it comes from theoriginal manuscripts, the
(02:22):
original autographs, as theycall them.
The Old Testament was largelyHebrew, okay, ancient Hebrew,
and then portions in Aramaic,and then there's Greek, modern
Greek, koine Greek from 2,000years ago is pretty much the New
Testament, so you have threebig languages there and the word
(02:43):
rapture does not appear in ourEnglish Bible.
Okay, but there are similarwords that have the same meaning
that we translate from theoriginal manuscripts in Greek,
right, matt?
Yeah, into English.
And you said that word.
For the New Testament, wordArpazo, okay, which means you
got a definition of that.
(03:03):
For the New Testament wordArpazo, okay, which means you
got a definition of that.
Matt (03:06):
It means to catch up or snatch away quickly, right To
Suddenly catch up, yeah, andI've heard a Greek speaker
actually say it's like yousnatch someone out of the way of
harm by the hair of their head.
Brandon (03:24):
It has a suddenness to the word.
It's a quick, sudden thing,which most people that believe
in a rapture are going to saythat it happens in a moment, in
a twinkling of an eye.
We use that language and that'sbiblical language.
So I guess where we want tostart is this is not a foreign
(03:44):
concept.
It's not.
Wherever you come down on thisissue, however you see it now,
or however you see it at the endof this conversation, it's not
a stretch to say that the ideaof a sudden catching away is in
Scripture.
Matt (04:02):
Yeah, it's definitely in Scripture.
Brandon (04:05):
Let's just think for a second.
The prophet Elijah was walkingalong with Elisha.
He parted the water, theywalked along and then suddenly
the chariot of fire comes downand he's gone.
He's suddenly caught away andhis cloak is there on the ground
(04:27):
and Elisha says you know thechariot of Israel and the
horsemen thereof.
Okay, so he's suddenly caughtaway.
Another one pops in my headEnoch, enoch, that would be
Genesis.
What five?
I think Somewhere around there,I think it's Genesis 5.
What five?
(04:47):
I think that the, I think it'sjust five, and it says best.
I remember that enoch walkedwith god and he was not, for god
took him, okay, just suddencatching away.
Uh, of course, the book ofenoch that bears his name, uh,
uh, enoch one uh says that hewas caught away by God as a part
of the whole fallen angel thingfrom Genesis, chapter number 6.
(05:11):
During those times, the days ofJared and the sons of God and
the daughters of men, fromGenesis 6.
So there's a catching away ofEnoch, there's a catching away
of Elijah.
Matt (05:22):
Now, I'll throw this out.
I should probably clarify thatKing James, our modern King
James, the book of Enoch is notin there.
Brandon (05:31):
Most of our modern translations.
Yeah, yeah.
Matt (05:34):
But it is part of.
It was part of the original1611 King James.
Brandon (05:39):
Well, and you know, and the book of Enoch and maybe
we'll talk about this in futureepisodes.
I know we will when we talkabout giants in Genesis 6.
But the book of Enoch, myviewpoint on it is if you don't
want to count it as scripture, Icompletely am fine with that,
but you have to give it duerespect because it is quoted in
(06:00):
scripture Verbatim.
Okay, so Enoch 1, and there'sthree books of Enoch.
When we say Enoch is quoted inscripture, we're talking about
Enoch 1.
So do your homework.
Don't just read Enoch 2 and 3and believe everything that's in
there and say that it's all thesame.
Matt (06:16):
It's clearly written by a different author.
Brandon (06:19):
So we'll talk about Enoch later, but the idea of a
rapture or a sudden catchingaway, even though the word's not
used, the word harpazo is thesudden catching away.
There's a couple others that Icould point out.
Jesus, mount of Transfiguration, was transfigured in front of
(06:40):
them.
The ascension, he was taken upfrom them, okay, suddenly.
I didn't mean to saytransfiguration, I was talking
about the ascension is what I'mthinking of.
So and then what about inCorinthians, where Paul says I
knew a man about 14 years ago,whether in the body or out of
the body, he was caught up tothe third heaven.
(07:01):
He's referencing himself, okay,where he was caught up to the
third heaven.
He's referencing himself, okay,where he was caught up to the
third heaven.
Okay, john in Revelation,chapter 4, hears a trumpet and
is caught up into the heavenlythrone room and sees Revelation
4 and 5 and sees the lamb as ithad been slain, taking the book.
(07:21):
So I guess what we're saying isfrom Genesis all throughout to
Revelation, there is you may notcall it a rapture, and so don't
be so brutally technical thatyou can't have an idea of a
rapture, the idea of a raptureperson pre-trib, pre-wrath, pre
(07:45):
or mid-trib, whatever you arepartial-trib or partial Partial.
Matt (07:51):
Partial rapture person.
Now, if you're anall-millennial, they don't think
there is a rapture.
But I mean you can poke holesin that with-.
Brandon (07:59):
Well, all-millennials don't really believe that
there's much of anything.
Matt (08:03):
True, we might touch on that towards the end.
Brandon (08:12):
Yeah, we'll get into millennialism, but, yeah,
amillennial, my old preachersused to say.
They just say, ah, we don'tbelieve in anything.
So sorry if you're anamillennial, but we've got to be
able to poke fun at each otherand have fun.
Okay, millennial, uh, but wegot to be able to poke fun at
each other and have fun, yeah,okay yeah, so, and that's,
that's the other thing aboutpre-trib, post-trib, the
different rapture, theories,thoughts.
(08:35):
It's not something that youdivide over, yeah I have heard
some serious stories, oh, offights and people walking on the
other side of the streetbecause they wouldn't walk down
the street in a small town withsomebody who was a
post-millennial post-trib,because they were a pre or
whatever.
I mean it's gotten carried awaybefore.
Matt (08:57):
Yeah, and we're hearing the Bible Belt and people okay,
they'll go to the church acrossthe street, literally, because
the church that they're atbelieves in a post-tribulation
rapture and they don't want togo through the tribulation, so
they just walk across the streetand go to the other church.
Brandon (09:14):
I actually heard a story about that, mark Lowry,
who's the Southern Gospelcomedian guy with the Gaithers.
He was telling a story.
He was raised in an independentfundamental Baptist church and
that's kind of how I was earlyon.
And then he said my preacheralways said that he wanted to
die preaching I'm telling thestory the best I can remember
(09:36):
and he goes one Sunday morninghe got his wish and he dies
right in the middle of church.
So they have to get a newpastor.
And they got a new pastor thatwasn't a pre-tribber and so they
brought in somebody thatbelieved in post-trib, that
believed that the church wasgoing to go through the entirety
of the tribulation, and he goes.
That was a problem.
He goes.
My daddy didn't want to gothrough the tribulation, he said
.
So we got up and walked acrossthe street and joined us a
(09:57):
church that was going to gobefore the tribulation.
So I always got a big kick outof that, yeah, and that's
probably.
I mean that's probably true,very true, that's the way people
work, very true.
Let me give a definition.
So we've talked about raptureand the word rapture is not in
the Bible, but the idea ofharpazo catching away, is all
(10:18):
throughout the Bible.
Okay, a sudden catching away.
But let me say this Let me givea definition to a rapture.
So when I say biblical rapture,what I'm referring to is there's
several passages of scripturethat seem to indicate in the
future, future studies calledeschatology.
(10:40):
So there's an eschatologicalview, and that's a tough word to
say that at some point theliving and the dead believers
are, who have deceased already,will be caught up suddenly to be
with the Lord.
So that's what we're going totalk about, and I figure the
(11:14):
best place to start this is tolook at the big three, in my
opinion.
And somebody out there will say, well, there's four or five,
and there probably is, butthere's three big ones that
always get cited.
And I want to look at thesethree scriptures and we are the
Bible says podcast.
So here's the deal.
I'm going to go ahead and tellyou I believe in a
(11:36):
pre-tribulation rapture, okay,and so I'm not ashamed of that.
I think I can defend that.
But here's the deal If I wantto be faithful to the Word of
God and here's what I've triedto do throughout my ministry,
throughout my time of being aChristian and a Bible student is
to look at stuff, look attopics.
The reason we started thispodcast is to look at topics and
(11:58):
, even though I might believethem vehemently, if I can't
defend them clearly fromScripture and there's a better
explanation, then maybe I don'tneed to be believing that as
hard as I am.
So if I'm a pre-tribber and Ican't take the heat, then I need
to get out of the kitchen, okay.
And now, if you're apost-tribber, mid-tribber,
(12:19):
pre-rather, all that, don't bescared to get into your Bible
and the hard passages and lookat them, and so I don't want to
be scared as a pre-tribber.
So we're going to look at allthe tribbers.
Okay, that's what we're goingto do.
Matt (12:32):
And look at them all.
I'm not 100% sold on pre-tribmyself personally.
Brandon (12:38):
Are you serious and you're going to try and fix?
Matt (12:39):
me, I'm going to fix you, you're going to try and fix me,
but to me I can almostdisappointed in you.
I know you're highlydisappointed, but I can almost
pull a pre-trip or a mid-trip,right, okay, I I can't defend
the others, okay, I can poke toomany holes in them right, but I
(13:00):
could.
I can come closest to defendingpre-trib or mid-trib, but I
can't even come close todefending all millennials.
Brandon (13:10):
As a pre-tribber.
There have been many times thatI have been asked and talked
about in different things andI've said boy, I hope I'm right,
you know what I mean.
So you see what I'm saying andyou and I get along well and we
don't argue over it.
We don't worry about it.
Right, he's lying.
We do, we do a lot, we fight.
(13:31):
No, I pastor a church where wedon't require you to believe
hook, line and sinker everylittle point that the pastor
believes.
And I love actually teasing andcutting up with people who I
know might are sitting on thefence.
You know pre-mid, pre-rath, allthat kind of stuff, but I love
(13:52):
talking the Bible.
That's why we have this podcast.
We're going to have fun tonight.
Let's look at 1 Thessalonians.
I'll look at the 1Thessalonians If you want to
grab Corinthians and let's lookat these.
Let's let the Bible speak.
To begin with, let's look atsome of the big passages that
seem to talk about a suddencatching away of living and dead
believers caught up to meet theLord in the air.
(14:14):
So let's look at the maybe themost famous one of those
passages 1 Thessalonians, 4, 17and 18.
This is where the apostle Paul'swriting 17 and 18.
This is where the apostlePaul's writing, and here is what
he said I'm actually going toread.
Let me see here verse 16 aswell.
It says for the Lord himselfshall descend from heaven with a
(14:37):
shout, with the voice of thearchangel and with the trump of
God and the dead in Christ shallrise first.
Then we which are alive andremain, shall be caught up
together with them, the dead inthe clouds, to meet the Lord in
the air.
And so shall we ever be withthe Lord.
(14:59):
And verse 18 says wherefore,comfort one another with these
words.
So here you see the idea of theLord descending from heaven
(15:26):
with a shout, the voice ofcaught up together with them in
the clouds.
Okay, to meet the Lord in theair, and so shall we ever be
with the Lord.
Wherefore, comfort one anotherwith these words.
So the idea is there is asudden catching away, okay, of
living and dead.
Matt (15:42):
That one verse lays the foundation that there is a
rapture, there is a suddencatching away.
A sudden catching away.
Brandon (15:50):
Can I say something right here that we haven't said
either?
Okay, because somebody outthere is going to still be hung
up that you're using the wordrapture and it's not there.
Okay, I've gotten that.
Like people will just like stopsaying the word rapture, okay,
stop saying the word rapture,okay, well, stop saying the word
Trinity.
Okay, the word Trinity is notin the Bible.
But I can show you over and overand over and over where the
(16:12):
idea Jesus is baptism.
Jesus is the one gettingbaptized, right, the voice from
heaven is the Father's and theSpirit descends on him like a
dove.
Father, son, holy Spirit, boom,checkmate.
You know what I mean.
I can go to countless ones ofthose.
So it's you know.
The Father, son, the HolySpirit are there.
So you can prove the Trinity,even though the word's not there
.
And I think you can prove arapture, a sudden catching away.
(16:33):
No matter what you believe, thetiming of it is okay, whether
it comes at the end or thebeginning, or pre or post or
whatever.
There is a sudden catching away.
You got anything to add to that?
Matt (16:48):
No, I mean, that was my point.
I mean it's clearly inScripture a catching away of
some type at some point Right InScripture Right, so I agree,
let's look at another one.
You got it First Corinthians 15, 51, and 53?
.
I do Listen.
I'll tell you a mystery.
We shall not all sleep, but wewill be changed In a flash, in
(17:12):
the twinkling of an eye, at thelast trumpet, For the trumpet
will sound, the dead will beraised imperishable, and we will
be changed, For the perishablemust clothe itself with the
imperishable and the mortal withimmortality.
Brandon (17:25):
Okay, so there again, we will not all sleep.
That is a word for be dead ordie.
We're not all sleep, but weshall all be changed.
Okay, so we're going to bechanged.
Moment and a twinkling of aneye at the last trump, for the
trumpet shall sound and the deadshould be raised incorruptible.
We should be changed.
(17:46):
So there's a catching away anda changing, and most bible folks
would, theologians and studierswould say that that you know
you receive your glorified bodyat that point.
Okay, so that is.
Those are the two big.
First thessalonians, firstcorinthians describe an event
where there's a caught up and achange that happens.
It's dead believers, followedby the living believers who are
(18:09):
alive on the earth.
I want to look at one more.
Matt (18:12):
You got something to add to that.
The apostles used these verses,these thoughts on a rapture, to
give people hope.
The apostles do.
Brandon (18:27):
And.
Matt (18:28):
I've heard several people that lash out against a rapture,
there's no rapture, et cetera,saying that it's escapism or
it's things like that.
And we're doing the same thingthat the apostles were doing
we're using it to give peoplehope.
Brandon (18:50):
Well, I mean, but here's the deal.
There's so many events in endtime prophecy that have to be
wrapped up and the church has tosomehow get to heaven to be
married to Christ at themarriage supper of the Lamb, and
all these future events, and ifyou believe, you cannot say
that there's no catching away.
(19:10):
I'm sorry, I don't accept that.
1 Corinthians, 1 Thessalonians,the book of Revelation the idea
is there that one day.
Okay, we're going to look atanother one here in a second,
just because it come to my mind,but I want to look at
Revelation first.
This is what we call a secondcoming passage.
Okay, clearly, um, jesus, hisfirst coming was his incarnation
(19:32):
as a baby.
He died.
And then we know that there'san event, um, called the coming
of the lord, or the perugia ingreek, and it is the uh coming
is referred to often and that'swhen he comes back at the end of
the seven-year tribulationperiod on the earth and he puts
Satan and chains him up for athousand years and all this kind
(19:55):
of stuff.
And I know there's somebody outthere probably listening to
this that is like, well, that'sall you know.
That's cryptic language andthen you're not supposed to take
that literally and all thatkind of stuff.
We'll talk about that later.
But there is a second coming,okay.
So the argument against therapture is when people say it's
escapism, they're saying there'snothing, there's no event prior
(20:18):
to the coming of the Lord atthe end, so that you're not
going to get out of here earlyand escape the wrath and the
tribulation, all that kind ofstuff.
So, yeah, we'll talk about thatbecause we're going to look at
these things.
But I want to look at Revelation19.
This is a second coming.
Jesus is coming back.
He came first as the Lamb ofGod.
He is coming back to put torescue Israel, okay.
(20:42):
He's coming back to rescue hispeople, israel, to rescue Israel
.
Okay.
He's coming back to rescue hispeople, israel.
He's coming back to put downSatan, to set up his kingdom.
He's coming back this time as awarrior and the king.
Okay, king of kings, lord oflords.
Here's what it says inRevelation 19.
And I saw heaven opened andbehold a white horse, and he
that sat upon him was calledFaithful and True, capitalized,
(21:04):
and in righteousness he dothjudge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame offire and on his head were many
crowns and he had the namewritten that no man knew but
himself, and he was clothed witha vesture dipped in blood, and
his name is called the Word ofGod, capitalized.
It's a title.
And the armies which were inheaven followed him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen,white and clean, and out of his
(21:26):
mouth goeth a sharp sword thatwith it he should smite the
nations and he shall rule themwith a rod of iron, and he
treadeth the winepress of thefierceness and wrath of Almighty
God, and he hath on his vestureand on his thigh a name written
King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Jesus is coming back as thatvictor, that warrior, that king
(21:48):
of kings and Lord of lords.
So here's my question okay,matt?
So we look at 1 Thessalonians,we look at 1 Corinthians 15, and
then we look at Revelation 19.
Revelation 19, we know, is thesecond coming, okay?
So here's where the debate getskind of hairy, okay, okay.
So here's where the debate getskind of hairy, okay, people say
(22:25):
so.
These passages that we'relooking at, are they describing
one event, which is Jesus comingback as the warrior, and
somewhere in that same vicinityof time, the catching away of
the believers, okay?
Or are all these passagesdescribing multiple events, okay
, and some of you would say,well, no, it's not because
there's, you know, it doesn'tsay there's multiple events, and
they'll say that's where theythrow the term around.
Well, I don't believe in asecret rapture or a secret
escape plan, okay, so, yeah, sothat is why we're here to debate
(22:50):
.
Are these passages that we'relooking at?
We picked two or three of thebig ones, right?
Yeah, are we talking about oneevent, the second coming and its
surrounding timeframe, or arewe talking about sometime
earlier and prior to that?
Is there going to be a, if youwill, a secret rapture?
Matt (23:07):
Okay, A secret catching away.
Brandon (23:16):
I don't like calling it a secret rapture, because
everybody is going to know ithappened.
There is a catching awaysuddenly, of truck drivers and
car drivers and pilots andsoldiers and fast food workers
taking your.
You know, suddenly somebody'sgone.
It'll be hard to keep thatunder wraps.
I would say if there's a suddencatching away, now there are,
(23:41):
and I don't know if you want todo more than this, but we can
kind of wing it.
Okay, in my mind, in myexperience as well, there's four
viewpoints on this.
That are the big ones.
Okay, so there are people whobelieve, yes, there are a
rapture.
And I want to say this thestats say that most, most
(24:03):
evangelical Christians, believein some sort of a catching away
and a rapture.
And I would have to say, Ithink scripture bears that out.
Is there a rapture?
Yes, when is it?
That's what we're going to talkabout, okay, and can I be 100%
sure?
No, I think I can be fairlyconfident, but I mean, you know
(24:24):
what I mean.
Okay, so there's four big views.
Three of the views see thescriptures that we just read as
two separate events.
So there's a second coming atthe end of the seven-year
tribulation, near tribulation,but before that at some point
(24:48):
there is a rapture, a suddencatching away of the church
prior to the second coming.
So there's a second coming, butthere's a previous event.
Okay, the camps, if you willthat believe this, are the
pre-tribulation rapture crowd.
Okay, which I proudly attend,right.
Okay, the mid-tribulationrapture viewpoint okay, which.
How's that fence you're sittingon?
(25:10):
I'm just kidding, just kidding,I'm going to give you some.
I'm going to give you some, allright.
So, and there is the pre-wrath.
Okay, you're laughing at me now.
Okay, you're laughing at me now.
Okay, so these three, theydon't see eye to eye, okay, but
they all agree that there is arapture event before the second
(25:35):
coming.
So the second coming is at theend of the seven years and they
believe that it's sometime wellbefore the second coming.
So I hope that makes sense Pre,mid and pre-wrath.
Okay, those are the big threeviewpoints.
Pre-wrath kind of come onstrong here the last few decades
.
And then there is one viewpoint, so that's the first three.
(25:55):
They kind of believe that theevent happens earlier, before
the second coming.
But there's one, and I will saythis it is probably, if you
look through history, the mostheld viewpoint.
Okay, yeah, this was the churchfathers that some of you cite
like crazy, you know.
Some of the church fathers, someof the church, not all of them
(26:16):
Not all of them, you're right,but predominantly yeah, okay,
okay, and the church, dominatedby Rome, definitely held this
view of the post-tribulationrapture.
Okay, they believe there was acatching away of the living and
the dead and they believe thatit happened sometime around the
(26:39):
second coming or at the secondcoming.
This is what you callpost-tribulation belief in
rapture.
So this is the belief thatJesus is going to come back at
the end of the seven years andwhen he comes back he's going to
catch away his bride.
The saved, those who are aliveand remain, and those who are
(27:00):
dead are going to be caught upin change at that moment.
They believe it's going tohappen at the end of the seven
years, so that the church,excuse me is going to go through
the entirety of the seven-yeartribulation.
Any comments on those fourviewpoints, matt, before we kind
of jump into defining those?
Matt (27:22):
No, we can go ahead and get into defining those and
figure out which one we're goingto hit first.
Brandon (27:29):
Okay, let's look at.
First of all, let's look atthese first three.
Let's look at let me see here,let's look at post-trib Okay.
(27:50):
So post-trib folks who believethat the rapture, believe in a
rapture, but they believe ithappens at the end of the
tribulation period.
Okay, let's look at some oftheir arguments.
Okay, I do not and have notsupported this viewpoint, but
I've got to be able to look atsome of their arguments.
Okay, I do not and have notsupported this viewpoint, but
I've got to be able to look atit and see if it has merit.
(28:11):
So I want to look at it.
Post-trib arguments and to dothis, you got to listen to some
post-tribbers.
You got to read somepost-tribbers and see, listen to
.
One of my favorite things is togo onto YouTube and listen to.
I love debates on theologicaltopics between two really smart
(28:31):
people grounded in the Word whosee things differently, and
they'll tear each other apart,but do it all in brotherly love,
right?
So we love that.
Post-trib arguments okay, one ofthe big ones that always gets
cited is Jesus never promisedthat the church is not going to
go through tribulation.
So you people that saying thathe's there's tribulation been
(28:53):
all throughout the church.
Okay, 11 out of 12 of theapostles were martyred.
The only one that didn't die amartyr's death was John.
So but so all these martyred,they killed Jesus.
I mean the church was verypersecuted.
Okay.
So they'll say, you know?
I mean they say you, americanchurch, you know you're.
(29:14):
You're kind of feeding yourselfa line that you're going to
escape all the tribulationbecause I mean, look at China,
look at you know, if you're aChristian in China, look at if
you're a Christian, you knowcertain parts of the Middle East
, things like that.
Okay, so there's a lot oftribulation in the church.
That's one thing that theyoften point out.
God never told you he ain'tgoing to go through it.
(29:35):
So that's what they'll say,because I've talked to him.
Any thoughts on that?
Matt (29:40):
No, and he never says that you're not going through.
Now he does say he won't sufferyou to see wrath.
Brandon (29:49):
Right, we'll talk about that.
Yeah, that's often cited by alot of these viewpoints.
Yeah, okay so, but you know,and I agree with that, the
church is not shielded fromtribulation.
No, the church is not shieldedfrom tribulation.
Matt (30:04):
No, and that's a lot of the places where it talks about
tribulation and persecution.
Brandon (30:14):
Right.
Matt (30:14):
It uses the same word for a stumbling block.
Right, okay, you're going tohave stumbling blocks.
Brandon (30:22):
You're going to have trials and tribulations, paul
talks about them, peter talksabout them, peter talks about it
.
Life, yep.
And I'll say this you are goingto have those.
He never said he's going toremove you from that.
Let me say this too One of thethings that has been pointed out
(30:42):
in arguments defending apost-tribulation rapture is that
the 1 Thessalonians that wejust read 1 Thessalonians 4.17,
it says that we'll be caught upto meet the Lord in the air.
Okay, and they'll point out yes,you'll be caught up to meet the
Lord in the air, but nowhere inthe passage does it say that
(31:04):
you are going to be taken toheaven.
It says that you're caught upto meet the Lord in the air, but
nowhere in the passage does itsay that you are going to be
taken to heaven.
It says that you're caught upto meet the Lord in the air.
So now a post-tribulation like?
You've got to think throughthis right.
So, and I've talked to some ofthem, so literally, what they
believe is that Jesus is comingback at the end of the
tribulation, but shortly beforemost of them will say it like
(31:25):
this shortly before Jesus comesback on the white horse leading
the armies of heaven, which isus, that there will be a
catching away.
So it's up, we meet him in theair and we welcome him like we
would welcome a king in thehalls of the court, and we're
(31:45):
welcoming him in the air as hecomes down, and then we come
down with him.
That's how.
And let me say this If you'regoing to believe in
post-tribulation, you have tosay that you have to believe
that because the Bible is soclear that you at some point go
up and that Jesus comes down.
So if you're going to put it atthe same time, you got to go up
(32:07):
and down you have to have it atthe same time or pretty close.
Matt (32:10):
I think one of the reasons they probably do that another
one of your bullet points isthey don't want to believe that
people are saved after therapture happens.
Brandon (32:26):
Yeah, and as a pre-tribber, because I put the
timing of the rapture before thetribulation.
When you ask me, are peoplesaved during the tribulation,
I'm like heck.
Matt (32:38):
yeah, they are Biggest revival the world's ever seen.
Yeah, it's clearly laid out,starting in like chapter six of
Revelation, that people arebeing saved.
That's right.
Brandon (32:48):
That's right.
That's very, very true.
Let me say something here as welook down through these points
and listen if you're apost-tribber you would probably
be here and say things differentand I'm trying to be faithful
to their belief system andpresent what they believe in a
(33:12):
kind way, a gracious way,because we're brothers and
sisters in Christ.
But let me say this I might notdefend it as vehemently as you
would or could, but these aresome of the key arguments and
it's hard to defend a point thatmay not be your own, but we're
trying to do our best here, okay.
Now, one thing that getspointed out as well is that
(33:35):
people are saved all throughoutRevelation, chapter 6 to 18.
Yeah, okay, and that kind ofgoes to your point that people
are saved, your point thatpeople are saved.
If you look at the events fromRevelation 6 to Revelation 18,
which are the trumpets and theseals and the bowls, the
judgments okay, 21 of them yousee there are people saved more
(33:58):
than you can count.
Okay, and they're saved.
Many are martyred, but we doknow that some will live through
that tribulation, but they getsaved during that time.
Okay, so they will say thatpeople are saved all throughout
Revelation 6 through 18, andthere's no reason.
Because a lot of times inRevelation it'll say the elect
(34:19):
or those who endured the end aresaved, and all this kind of
stuff in this language is inRevelation.
And so they'll say there's noreason to say that that's a
different group of people, thatthe church ends at a rapture way
back here and that tribulationcrowd is called the elect.
They're the people of God andthere's no reason to
differentiate them becausethey're saved, clearly, and
going to heaven as well.
(34:39):
So they're like don't drawbelief systems where it doesn't
say so.
That's one of their defenses.
I'm probably not saying thatthe best.
Matt (34:49):
Yeah, and that's one of the things.
There's no reason todifferentiate between the two in
their minds.
Why are the people that aresaved during Revelation
different?
Than us during the church age.
Brandon (35:02):
Right Now, let me say this Some of them will say that
we and we've talked about this.
If you're a post-tribber, somewill say that we read a secret
rapture into the text.
That's not there, okay.
That we're reading preconceivednotions into the text, all
right.
And they'll say youpre-tribbers and some of you
(35:22):
other folks, you're justbelieving Darby and CI Schofield
, and guess what guys?
Look what I have here.
It is a Schofield referenceBible.
So there you go, guilty ascharged.
Some of his notes I do notagree with I'll just go on
record but a lot of them I do,and I've used it for so long
(35:46):
growing up that I'm used to thatstudy Bible and so I just use
it because I want to.
And so people, yeah, I likewhat I like, right.
But people say as well thatwe're reading it in to the text
and sometimes and I'm not sayingthat we're doing that, I'm just
saying sometimes Christians canread preconceived notions into
(36:09):
the text.
So we got to be careful and youknow, I get it, I get it.
So we want to be.
We want to present yourviewpoint very well.
Now I want to point.
I want to be slightly criticalof you, though.
Okay, I want to be slightlycritical of most
post-tribulation believers thatI have believed in.
Okay, now let me say this toyou Couple things if I'm playing
(36:31):
devil's advocate here.
Okay, I want to say this.
So, the millennial kingdom, allright.
First, a lot of post-tribbersdon't believe in a millennium,
okay, because they believe thatthe millennium has happened and
started already or is alreadycomplete.
A lot of post-tribbers believein what we call preterism, where
(36:53):
a lot of the eschatologypassages that we go to are
already fulfilled history.
So that's what we callpreterism, okay, so you can get
into that a lot.
And so you know, some believethat the millenniums already
happened, preterism.
(37:13):
And let me say this to youthere might be a fundamental
difference between you and I andI don't want to speak for you,
matt, but just me personally.
Hermeneutically, I'm a biblicalliteralist, okay, and so I take
the Bible literally and I thinkit's pretty easy to figure out
where God is being figurative.
(37:33):
But a lot of post-trib andpost-millennial folks fall in
the hermeneutically figurativecamp and they don't always take
Scripture as literal as I would.
Matt (37:51):
They don't take it as literal and, especially when it
comes to Revelation Right, theywill just tell you point blank
that it is not to be takenliteral.
That it is, they're like no, no, no, that's not literal.
I was like, well, so thepassage right up above that?
(38:13):
You told me that that's literalRight, but the one right below
it is figurative.
Brandon (38:19):
Cherry picking yeah.
You know, Now, is therefigurative language in
Revelation?
Yes, yes, a lot.
So you have to read it and youhave to read it with discernment
.
But I think you've got to havethat conversation.
Is God saying this literally,okay?
Is this literal, okay, or is itnot?
Is this a figurative, or abeast with seven heads and ten
horns and all this kind of stuff, or is it figurative?
(38:41):
Well, you know, a lot of thatlanguage is figurative.
Or a beast with seven heads andten horns and all this kind of
stuff, or is it figurative?
Well, you know, a lot of thatlanguage is figurative.
Okay, it's representative of agovernment or whatever, and you
can use your God-given brain todifferentiate a lot of that
stuff, okay.
But you know, when John says hewas caught up in the throne
(39:04):
room and he sees the Lamb of Godas he had been slain, I don't
think that's figurative.
I think he literally went toheaven, to the throne room of
God, and saw the throne room ofGod and Jesus there and all the
living creatures surrounding thethrone and all the angels.
I believe that's literal, okay.
So how you interpret the Bibleis going to determine your
eschatology, okay.
(39:25):
So I just want to say that.
But I want to say, before wemove on from post-trib, I want
to say this to you If youbelieve in post-trib, let me
pose you a question Are youready?
Okay, I'm ready.
All right, the millennium hasus.
Hold on.
Let me back up.
The millennium has believerswho have a glorified body, okay.
(39:48):
So if you believe in pre-trib,post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath,
somewhere before the millennialreign, the thousand-year reign
of Christ, there's the raptureand you are changed into your
glorified body.
If you believe in a post-trib,you believe it's down to the
last second before themillennium starts.
If you believe in a post-trib,you believe it's down to the
last second before themillennium starts.
Well, in the millennium we findhuman beings, not in a
(40:11):
glorified body, who arebelievers, going into the
millennium and populating theearth during the millennium,
having babies, getting married.
Life expectancy and part of thecurse is rolled back.
If a child dies at 100 yearsold, the Bible says he was just
a baby.
I'm paraphrasing, but basicallylife expectancy extends, so
(40:32):
people live and die, and all ofthose people came from believers
who entered the millennium.
So here's the deal If allbelievers are raptured right
before the millennium starts, atthe second coming, who are the
human beings that populate themillennium, and have babies.
Matt (40:53):
That's a good question.
Brandon (40:54):
Yeah, I'd love to hear Post-tribulationists.
Please send us an email or sendus a comment, and I ask that
honestly because that is oneproblem that I have post-trib,
because ain't nobody to populatethe millennium.
You've got those of us who areruling and reigning with Christ
in our glorified bodies.
So who's having babies?
(41:14):
Okay, honest question.
Honest question.
All right, let's move on.
Let's look at pre-wrath.
Take pre-wrath.
What do pre-wrathers believe?
Matt, pre wrath.
Matt (41:25):
Take pre-wrath what do pre-wrathers believe Matt?
So there are a few judgments inthe book of Revelations, the
bold judgments mainly, that areconsidered where God is pouring
out his wrath upon the earth.
During these judgments,millions and millions of people
(41:47):
die.
Brandon (41:48):
Okay, and that's during the time of the tribulation,
because there's the seventrumpets, seven seals.
Matt (41:55):
Seven trumpets, seven trills Yep.
Brandon (41:57):
Yeah, and then seven bowls or vials.
Matt (41:59):
So that is somewhere close to the midpoint, okay, I'm
assuming, because it doesn'texactly give you the time frame.
Okay, and it also again goesback to where you're talking
about how you read the Bible.
Okay, so is Revelation.
Is it read linear frombeginning to end, right?
(42:23):
Or does it have a cyclicalnature?
That's a big word.
What does that mean?
That means that there arepossibly more than one cycle.
Brandon (42:35):
Like a bicycler.
Matt (42:36):
Yes, a bicycler, so there are more than one.
There are overlapping events inRevelation where one section of
it overlaps with anothersection of it.
Brandon (42:49):
Right, and that's a good point.
And this is a debated topicabout Revelation, because is it
to be read?
Chronologically, is it to read?
I heard somebody talking aboutthis one time and they said
suppose you were to write thehistory of World War II.
Okay, but you presented onepart of your book is World War
(43:12):
II at the same time, but fromAmerican perspective.
Yeah, but then at the same timeyou're going to write it from a
German perspective, then you'regoing to write it from a
Russian perspective, then you'regoing to write it from a
Japanese perspective.
You see what I'm saying?
Yeah, it's all going to lookdifferent and you've got to
overlap them at the same time.
Now, personally, I believe thatrevelation builds upon one
(43:37):
another, but there areoverlapping times.
Some viewpoints are from earth,some viewpoints are from heaven
, and I think there'sparenthetical pauses and
chapters that are kind of inbetween and thoughts to
interject while all this isgoing on.
So it's a lot, it's a lot, butit's fun.
Matt (43:56):
Man, I love Revelation.
It is an awesome book.
Brandon (43:58):
Oh it's man, it's one of my favorites.
Matt (44:00):
I mean honestly, this stuff here is prophecy, this
Right Let us know out there, ifyou like this prophecy because
Matt and I, if you knew us,we're prophecy nuts.
Brandon (44:12):
Okay, we love it, we talk, we were talking earlier.
We go down rabbit holes andrabbit trails and down the yeah,
we'll chase those crazythoughts.
Matt (44:24):
We go down rabbit holes that we probably would never put
out to anybody else, because wedon't want you to make fun of
us, but anyway.
Brandon (44:32):
So pre-wrath believes, let me, because I'm not a
pre-wrather, okay, until a fewyears ago I didn't even know
what this was.
But basically they believe thatthe tribulation period is seven
years long.
Right, really bad things happenduring that seven years, but
not all of the things happeningare the wrath of God until it
(44:56):
reaches a certain point.
Am I right in that?
Yeah, okay, so if you readRevelation, chapter 6 through 18
, there are three kind ofsections.
Okay, so there's the seals,seven-sealed book.
Then the seven-sealed bookunlocks the seven trumpets.
(45:18):
Seven trumpets unlock the sevenbowls, or the vials, which
means bowls, or the vials, whichmeans bowls.
Matt (45:25):
And right in the middle of there there's a verse and I
didn't write it down, butthere's a verse in Revelation
that literally says he to Simeon, stick in the sickle and reap
the earth Right.
And that is their point ofrapture, that they're portraying
(45:54):
there.
Brandon (45:54):
Well, I've got it right here.
Revelation, I think, 14, itsays and I looked and behold a
white cloud.
Upon the cloud cloud, one satlike unto the son of man, having
on his head a golden crown andin his hand a sharp sickle.
And another angel came out ofthe temple crying with a loud
voice to him.
That sat on the cloud, thrustin the sickle and reap, for the
time has come for thee to reap,for the harvest of the earth is
(46:15):
ripe.
And he that sat on the cloudthrust in his sickle on the
earth and the earth was reaped.
Is that what you're referencing?
Okay, and then Revelation 15 iswhere the bowl judgments begin
to happen, and this is wherepre-wrathers base it.
They believe that the raptureis that thrusting into the
sickle.
And Revelation 15 says, verse 7, and one of the four beasts
(46:37):
gave unto the seven angels sevengolden vials or bowls, full
keyword here of the wrath of Godwho liveth forever and ever.
So, kind of the way Iunderstand, pre-wrath is
different than mid-trib, becausemid-trib would put it like dead
center in the middle of thetribulation, right at the
(46:59):
abomination of desolation.
We'll look at that.
Right at the abomination ofdesolation.
We'll look at that.
But pre-rathers put thetribulation just prior to the
bold judgments because that'swhen the wrath of God is coming.
So they don't see the sevenseals and all those natural
disasters and they don't see thetrumpets and all of that and
all the death and destruction.
They don't see that as thewrath of God.
They see that as just thecataclysmic natural events of
(47:23):
God, kind of building up to itthat we're building up to the
wrath of God being poured out.
Matt (47:29):
I believe at this point that the Antichrist is already
on the scene.
Brandon (47:34):
I believe so because I think he's here for the whole
seven years.
He may not have as prevalent ofa.
I think he's part of theleadership early on because the
Bible says he confirms thecovenant for a week for seven
years and he's part of that.
But then we see him fullcontrol by the midpoint, because
he's control of yeah, but so,to put it and if you're a
(47:55):
pre-wrather, correct us if we'rewrong Okay, but you see the
rapture happening prior to thebold judgments, predominantly.
And it does say let me say thisit does say in verse 7 that the
seven angels were given sevenbowls full of the wrath of God.
Okay, so the wrath of God isbeing poured out.
So if you believe that's thebeginning of the wrath of God
(48:15):
poured out, or what the wrath ofGod is being poured out at the
bowls, the bowls are the wrath.
Okay, so that's the pre-wrathview.
Is that a fair assessment ofwhat they believe?
Matt (48:27):
That is pretty close.
Okay, I mean, that's the basicsof it.
Brandon (48:31):
So let me stop right here.
Let me ask you this what do youthink of the post-trib view and
what do you think of thepre-wrath view?
What's your thought?
Matt (48:45):
trib view and what do you think of the pre-rath view?
What's your thought?
So, post trib, I can tend topoke a lot of holes in.
Okay, so there are a couplethings that happen, that happen
while we're in heaven, whileChristians are in heaven,
they're like and through, likethe marriage supper of the Lamb
(49:08):
and the judgment seat of Christand the judgment seat of Christ.
Those particular pieces have tohappen, okay, so you don't have
time for them to happen.
Brandon (49:19):
if you believe in post-trip, you don't have time
for them to happen at post-trip.
So you have a lot of problemswith post-trip.
You don't have time for them tohappen at post-trip.
Matt (49:24):
So you have a lot of problems with post-trip, I do.
I do have a lot of problemswith post-trip, okay.
Brandon (49:29):
And I concur with that.
I think it's the hardeststandpoint to defend.
Yeah, that's my thought.
Matt (49:36):
It really is the hardest one to defend, right, yeah,
hardest one to defend, yeah, itthe marriage supper and the
pieces that go along with andalign with a Jewish wedding,
right, right.
So those pieces don't lendthemselves to a post-trip Right
(50:04):
and it's clearly, clearlymirrors and it even calls it the
marriage supper of the Lamb,etc.
In the Bible.
Those pieces you don't haveroom for, those in a Jewish
traditional wedding.
Brandon (50:19):
Right, and there's a lot of.
I think what Matt's referringto is there's a lot of symbology
from John 14, in my father'shouse are many mansions or many
rooms and all that kind of stuff.
There's a lot of language thatequates the coming of Jesus for
his bride as to a Jewish wedding, and just a lot of bleed over
(50:40):
that.
You need some time for it todevelop, and seven years is the
perfect time frame for it todevelop, in my opinion.
So you're saying that you're apre-tribber because you need all
seven years.
Is that what you're saying?
Matt (50:57):
Honestly, the Jewish wedding tradition is one of the
strongest reasons for me to leantowards the pre-trib.
So you're coming, yeah, I'vegot you.
I can pull off pre-trib.
I can pull off.
Honestly, I could come close todoing the post-wrath.
Brandon (51:17):
The post-wrath or pre-wrath, pre-wrath, pre-wrath
yeah, sorry, all right, sorry.
So give us your thoughts onpre-wrath, pre-wrath, pre-wrath
yes, all right, sorry, not preso give us your thoughts on
pre-wrath.
Matt (51:40):
Okay, so with the pre-wrath, I mean, you do
clearly have in Revelations anangel, or, technically, you have
the cloud rider.
Okay, you've listened toMissler who's the cloud rider?
Right?
Okay, you've got a cloud rider.
Okay, you've listened toMissler who's the cloud rider?
Right?
Okay, you've got a cloud riderin Revelation sticking in a
sickle and reaping the harvestfrom the earth.
So, if I'm defending this, whatis the harvest of the earth?
(52:01):
Right, you know, jesus saysthat the workers are few and the
harvest is ripe, right?
Brandon (52:09):
So there's several points.
Matt (52:11):
So there's several points that are very good for a
pre-wrath.
I got you Okay In a linearreading of that.
Brandon (52:21):
Well, let's look next.
And lastly, on this episodeepisode, we'll look at mid-trib.
Okay, mid-trib is, it's notquite pre-wrath.
A lot of times, if you equatepre-trib or mid-tribbers and
pre-wrathers, they'll say no, no, no, we're not the same.
Okay, because a mid-trib ismore middle of the tribulation
(52:42):
prior to the abomination ofdesolation.
So let's look at that realquick.
So, basically, mid-trib.
They believe that, like inMatthew 24, verse 22.
I don't know if you got that,matthew 24, 22.
When Jesus is given his OlivetDiscourse to his disciples, is
(53:03):
given his Olivet Discourse tohis disciples, he talks about
during this time there is theelect.
Okay, do you have that?
Matt (53:12):
I do.
Do you want 22 or 21 and 22?
Brandon (53:14):
Read 21 and 22,.
That's fine.
Matt (53:16):
Okay, so For then shall be great tribulation, such as was
not since the beginning of theworld to this time.
No, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should beshortened, there should no
flesh be saved.
But for the elect's sake, thosedays shall be shortened.
Okay for the elect.
Brandon (53:36):
So they'll look at that word elect and they'll talk
about that's the church.
And so at the midpoint itbecomes the great tribulation
and I I actually would agreewith with this.
From that, this point, there isa seven year final um period
(53:57):
period of time.
People often call the sevenyears the tribulation period.
I don't like that.
Okay, because I don't think theBible calls it great
tribulation in the last threeand a half years.
Okay, it doesn't say the wholetime's, you know the tribulation
.
It says that it's the greattribulation's last three and a
(54:18):
half years.
Okay, so, but we know theperiod of time is a seven-year
period from Daniel 9.
It's a week of years.
So I call it Daniel's 70th weekand people usually look at you
like you're an idiot when youcall it that.
It's also referred to as thetime of Jacob's trouble in the
Old Testament.
Okay, and so there is aseven-year timeframe.
(54:40):
That is.
You know you cannot.
If you study Daniel andRevelation seriously, you're
gonna come up with a seven-yearperiod, but I do.
If you're gonna be technical.
The last three and a half yearsare called the Great
Tribulation.
So a mid-tribber looks at thisand says, well, the elect are
there and the days are shortened, okay.
So they believe that therapture occurs at the midpoint,
(55:04):
because if you read Matthew,chapter 24, he's talking about
the elect and he's saying, whenyou see this run, and so they
believe that the actual greattribulation is the wrath of God
being poured out, and so thingsare bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.
(55:26):
And then great tribulation hasnever been like this.
The Bible says that there'snever been days like this in the
last three and a half years.
So that's why mid-trib folkstake that viewpoint that at that
point is the rapture, or thecatching up of those who are
alive and remain, and the deadto the Lord.
Matt (55:46):
And they also connect that to the Revelation 12 with the
woman Right who is given thewings of the great eagle and
moved to the desert for aprotected place for a time Times
, and half a time, half a timeRight, so basically for three
(56:08):
and a half years, right.
Brandon (56:12):
So they also equate that piece to that
mid-tribulation portion, right,they also look at Revelation 11,
which is which covers theportion of the two witnesses,
the 42 months.
Revelation 10 and 11 are themidpoint of the tribulation.
(56:33):
So that kind of lets you in alittle bit on my thinking that
you are building in achronological way in some ways
throughout Revelation.
So I mean it does gochronologically from seals to
trumpets, to bowls.
So there is a chronologicalprogression, but Revelation 11
(56:54):
would be the midpoint.
And then you see this verse,verse 15 of Revelation 11, it
says and the seventh angelsounded.
The seventh is the final one,or the last trump, right, and
there were great voices inheaven saying the kingdoms of
this world will become thekingdoms of our Lord and of his
Christ, and he shall reignforever and ever.
And so you have this point,that is, there's a trumpet sound
(57:17):
, and so then the mid-trib willsay look, we're at the midpoint
of the tribulation.
The trumpet's sounding, it'sthe seventh trumpet.
1 Corinthians 15.52 says at thelast trump, the dead in Christ
will rise first.
Okay, so that's where.
Okay, and can I feasibly, in mymind, go there?
Yeah, a little bit I can say,okay, I may not agree, but can I
(57:44):
see where you're going?
Can I track with you?
Matt (57:47):
Yeah, a little bit, and that's generally my take on it,
okay.
Brandon (57:53):
So let me ask you this, as someone who has looked
heavily at pre-tribulationalismthat we're going to cover in the
next episode, looked heavily atpre-tribulationalism that we're
going to cover in the nextepisode, but you've also looked
at all these other ones.
Why?
What would differentiate youfrom being pre-wrath and
(58:13):
mid-trib?
What do you see as thedifference of those?
Matt (58:19):
I personally don't really see a lot of difference between
the two.
Brandon (58:26):
You think they make a lot of the same arguments.
Matt (58:27):
They make a lot of the same arguments.
And you, in order to do afull-on mid-trib or pre-wrath,
you almost have to read theRevelation shifts at chapter 12.
Okay, you get more of aheavenly perspective and then
(58:50):
you get into more figurativelanguage, right?
Okay, so there's a shift thathappens and it's almost like
that shift for mid-trib,pre-wrath.
You have to overlay the nextseveral chapters.
I got you Over what justhappened.
(59:10):
I got you.
Brandon (59:11):
Okay, one of the final things that I'll say about
mid-trib is that I've seen thempoint out Matthew 24, verse 29,
that says verse 29 that saysimmediately after the
tribulation of those days shallthe sun be darkened and the moon
shall not give her light andthe stars shall fall from heaven
and the powers of the heavenshall be shaken.
So they see a dividing point inthe tribulation period, or I
(59:35):
should.
I just said I would don't likethat term the seven years that
at the midpoint jesus referredto this as tribulation.
But after the tribulation ofthose days it gets really bad.
There'll be great tribulation.
Now I've heard him point thatout.
But in verse 22, he says isgreat tribulation.
So I don't know why 29 is greattribulation.
(59:56):
So that argument's a littleweak and kind of spinning around
.
Matthew 24 is if you don'thermeneutically break it down
right, you're going to get offway in the woods.
So we've looked at the word.
Rapture is not in the Bible.
We concede that.
But the idea of a rapture is.
We've looked atpost-tribulation rapture, which
means they believe thetribulation happens at the end
(01:00:18):
of the tribulation.
We've looked at mid-tribulation, which those folks believe that
it happens at the midpoint ofthe tribulation.
Then we've looked at thepre-wrath folks that think the
tribulation or the rapturehappens.
I think I said tribulationthree times.
The rapture happens post or midor pre-wrath, which is
pre-bowls of judgment.
(01:00:39):
Okay, so here's what we're goingto do.
We're going to sign off forthis episode and we want you to
dig into this.
We love comments, questions,things like that.
Don't forget to share thebroadcast and help us get the
word out for the Bible Sayspodcast.
What we're going to do in thenext episode is we are going to
take a hard look atpre-tribulationalism and we are
(01:01:01):
going to see if it stands thetest and I'm going to be put to
the test because this is my view.
Okay, so I want to defend it.
I want to defend it to you.
If there's holes to be poked init, poke away.
And, matt, we're going to talk,hash all this stuff out and
just have a good time.
We appreciate you tuning in.
(01:01:22):
You got anything to say, matt?
Matt (01:01:23):
No, Guys, just give us a like and follow on all the major
social media platforms Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube,
pretty much everywhere we are.
The Bible Says Podcast.
Good deal, Good deal.
Brandon (01:01:37):
You guys have a good night and we'll talk to you soon
.
The Bible Says Podcast andwe'll talk to you soon.
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