June 24, 2024 • 59 mins
Are you ready to uncover the mysteries of the rapture and its various interpretations? In our latest episode of the **Bible Says Podcast**, we delve into the fascinating world of rapture beliefs. Have you ever wondered why some people believe in a pre-tribulation rapture? Is there more to it than just "my preacher said so"?
We'll explore pre-tribulationism, post-tribulationism, mid-tribulationism, and pre-wrath rapture perspectives. Our discussion breaks down the intricate scriptural foundations and theological arguments, aiming to provide clarity and a deeper understanding for all listeners.
Join us as we investigate the purpose of the tribulation, particularly its significance for Israel, through the lens of Daniel 9's prophetic timeline. Have you ever considered how figures like Elijah and Enoch might hint at a secret catching away? We'll examine how this concept aligns with Paul's teachings in the New Testament, highlighting that pre-tribulation belief doesn't mean exemption from all suffering, but rather distinguishes between general tribulation and the specific seven-year period defined in the Bible.
We'll analyze the wrath of God as outlined in Revelation and how believers are spared through Christ. From the opening of the first seal to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, we map out the tribulation timeline and its implications for pre-tribulation and pre-wrath viewpoints. We'll also delve into Paul's teachings on the revealing of the Antichrist and the role of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer.
Tune in for a spiritually enriching discussion with a little southern charm that equips you for thoughtful theological reflection. We extend our heartfelt blessings, encouraging you to deepen your spiritual journey and share your insights.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brandon (00:09):
What does the Bible say ?
The Bible says the Bible sayspodcast.
All right, man, we are back.
We are back.
Episode seven we are back.
We are back.
Episode 7, bible Says Podcast.
We got into a lively debate inour last episode on the rapture,
(00:34):
and so I'm very curious, as webegin to get feedback from folks
, what they think about this,because this is a hot button
issue.
We said last time this is notsomething to divide over.
If you have faith in Christ andyou're washed in the blood of
the Lamb and you came the way ofthe blood, you're my brother
and sister in Christ.
I'm not going to fight over itwith you when you believe the
(00:55):
rapture is, that sure is fun totalk about.
Yeah.
Matt (00:58):
And it's cool, it's enjoyable, it is.
Brandon (01:05):
And you, I mean, and you don't have to agree on
everything, right, right, andthat's so true.
We looked last time atdifferent beliefs on timing of
the rapture and we kind ofconcluded I think both of you
and I believe it is verydefendable that the idea of the
rapture the harpazo is a betterword the catching away is all
(01:28):
throughout the Bible and isgoing to happen someday, no
matter where you put it post,pre, mid, pre-wrath, wherever,
stick a pin wherever you want,but it's going to happen.
There is a catching away of thedead in christ and those who
are alive and remain.
So the bible's pretty clearabout that.
I think, um, so, uh, we want todo that now tonight.
(01:51):
Well, let me say this last timewe looked at post and we looked
at per uh, midpost-tribulationism,
mid-tribulationism and pre-race,okay, and there also is
somebody out there who believesin what do they believe in?
Matt (02:06):
They believe in a partial rapture, a partial rapture Like
your top half goes up.
Well, that's kind of my diginto it.
They basically believe that ifyou are alive and ready and
(02:30):
believe that the rapture iscoming and you're not living in
sin, you're going to go in therapture.
But if you are not spirituallyprepared for the rapture, you
don't go spiritually preparedfor the rapture?
Brandon (02:47):
you don't go.
Okay, so here's what we'll sayabout that.
Okay, go listen to episodes onethrough five of the Bible Says
podcast what Happens to you whenyou Get Saved.
And once you're saved, you arejustified in the eyes of God.
And when he's ready to go,you're ready to go.
Okay, so fix your theology.
I'm.
He's ready to go, you're readyto go.
Okay, so fixture theology.
(03:07):
I'm not even going to arguethat one.
Yeah, we can put a pin in thatone.
Yeah, we'll put a pin in thatone.
Yeah, you crazy, you believethat.
Matt (03:14):
Yeah, and they base most of it on like.
I mean, they use 1 Corinthians,15, 51 to 52.
They say there's going to be arapture, but then they'll say
like John 39 and 40.
It says if you're not ready togo, you're not going.
Brandon (03:34):
Cherry pick a verse or two.
Matt (03:37):
I mean literally.
That's all that I can findverse-wise to support anywhere
even close.
Brandon (03:41):
But we brought it up.
So if you believe that outthere, we brought it up and we
addressed you.
We just do not concur, so tosay the least.
But anyway, we're poking fun atyou and feel free to poke fun
back, just be nice.
We're doing it tongue in cheek.
So, anyway, we are tonightgoing to defend the
(04:02):
pre-tribulation rapture, or I am, and I'm going to do my best to
attempt to convince Matt ofpre-tribulation rapture.
But he brought up some goodpoints last episode about the
Jewish wedding and the bleedover of the Jewish wedding to
the concept of the rapture, andthose are one of the things that
make him believe that, one ofthe things that make him believe
(04:29):
that.
Now let me say this I want tolook at John, chapter number 14.
I want to show you this wedon't think of John 14 as a
rapture passage, but I thinkit's one of my favorite ones.
Okay, and people don't eventhink of it.
A lot of people read it atfunerals and read it around the
bedside of a dying loved one.
I've done the same.
It says let not your heart betroubled.
(04:51):
You believe in God, believealso in me.
In my father's house are manymansions that word is the word
rooms, and modern translationssay that which makes sense.
In my Father's house are manymansions.
It has to mean rooms, becausein His house are many rooms off
of His house.
It makes sense, okay.
(05:12):
If it were not so, I would havetold you.
I go to prepare a place for you, okay.
So Jesus is about to die.
He's telling His disciples I'mgoing to go away, I've told you,
but I'm going.
Okay, in my father's house aremany rooms.
If it were not so, I would havetold you I go to prepare a
place for you.
So Jesus said I'm going toprepare a place for you and if I
(05:35):
go and prepare a place for you,I will come again and receive
or take you with me unto myself.
That where I am there, you maybe also.
And whither I go, you know, andthe way you know.
And Jesus says later I am theway, the truth and the life.
(05:56):
Okay, no man cometh unto theFather, but by me.
So Jesus basically says now,here's what you need to do.
Okay, and this I think if youbreak down those three or four
verses, you're going to findthis that Jesus said I'm going
to prepare a place for you andI'm going to come and receive
you to myself and take you tothat place.
That's clearly what he'simplying.
Yeah, okay.
Matt (06:17):
And that ties perfectly in to the Jewish wedding, to the
Jewish wedding.
Brandon (06:34):
Absolutely so.
Also, let me just say this asit ties back to as being a
pre-tribulationist.
We talked about post-trib lasttime.
I think this goes againstpost-trib, because Jesus went to
prepare a place, added a roomonto the Father's house for me
and he's going to take me there,okay.
So if you believe in post,remember, okay, jesus is coming
down at the second coming, so Igot to go up at that same time,
(06:57):
meet him and welcome him andthen come right back down.
I ain't got time to go to theFather's house, but Jesus said
I'm going to prepare a place foryou and I'm going time to go to
the Father's house.
But Jesus said I'm going toprepare a place for you and I'm
going to take you to theFather's house.
So there is a taking to theFather's house, okay.
So I believe that's why, in mypersonal opinion, post-trib is
(07:19):
if I'm looking at the four, okay, and you're narrowing it down,
post-trib's out the windowbecause there's a few
cataclysmic death nails to thatargument, okay.
And I think, if you're honest,don't just pull one little bit
of Scripture, look at it in itsentirety, okay, and look at this
Scripture.
And this Scripture, if it's theteaching of the Word of God.
(07:40):
It should mesh like hand inglove.
Okay, but you brought up theJewish wedding too in my
father's house.
So describe to us what happenedin a Jewish wedding that makes
you see the bleed over.
Matt (07:51):
Okay, so you would have a betrothal in a Jewish wedding.
Okay, so the groom would comeand tell the bride that you're
getting married.
He would pay the price,literally, for the bride.
Okay, then you're betrothed,right, okay.
Brandon (08:14):
So the groom paid a price for the bride.
Yes, okay, what did Jesus dofor us?
He paid her price.
He paid a price what?
No, you're bought with a priceYou're not your own.
Okay, yeah, so he paid a price.
Matt (08:30):
So he paid a price.
Okay, now the groom did nottake his bride with him when he
paid for her at the betrothal.
What was he doing?
So he would go back to hisfather's house and add a bridal
suite onto the father's house.
I think you know they livedcommunally, right?
(08:52):
So you would live with yourparents and with your family,
but you would build your ownroom Right Onto the house, okay,
onto the house, okay.
And then later you never knewthe time which the bride was, or
(09:13):
the groom was coming back forthe bride Okay, but they would
have a processional and he wouldcome back blowing a trumpet, no
less, to pick up the bride, andthen he would take the bride
back to his father's house.
They would begin the wholeJewish wedding ceremony of the
(09:37):
wedding supper, etc.
And complete the marriage.
We'll keep it civil.
On the podcast, consummate,consummate, yes, there's the
word I was looking for.
He would consummate themarriage and basically display
the blood for the father to see.
(09:59):
Right, that, there's a ton ofmarriage language in.
Brandon (10:09):
And the bride and the groom.
If you study it out, they wentinto a chuppah is the Hebrew
word, okay, what they called it?
Yeah, the Jewish word.
And they stayed there for aweek, yeah, and they got to know
each other.
Remember, they had never slepttogether.
Matt (10:27):
They had never been together.
Brandon (10:28):
Nothing, nothing.
So they get to know each other.
How long is the seven-year?
We call it the tribulationperiod.
We talked about it last week.
The last three and a half yearsare technically the great
tribulation but it's aseven-year period.
It's a seven-year period, soseven years, seven days.
There's a lot of similaritiesof the bride and the groom
spending that much time together.
Matt (10:47):
Yeah, and for me for pre-trib, that is probably my
strongest argument or mystrongest reason to believe in
pre-trib.
Brandon (10:59):
That is a strong one.
I'm going to give you some more, though.
Matt (11:01):
Are you?
Brandon (11:02):
ready, you go for it, all right.
So, defending the pre-trib, letme say this In defending the
pre-trib, one of the pushbacksthat people always say is well,
word rapture is not in the Bible.
You're reading it intoscripture.
You believe in a secret rapture.
Stop interposing yourpreconceived notion in the Bible
and all that kind of stuff.
And I get it.
Awesome, well-received, got it.
(11:23):
But let me say this to you Somepeople say well, the rapture.
If the rapture was this secretrapture, brandon, that you talk
about prior to the second comingand a different event
altogether, don't you think Godwould talk about it in the Old
Testament?
And my answer to that is no, Idon't, for two reasons.
(11:45):
Okay, god, and if you read thewritings of Paul, you will have
to conclude this God hid certainthings in plain sight, okay?
So the enemy, satan and hisevil forces, fallen angels,
demonic powers, principalities,powers, rulers of the darkness
of this world, would not pick upon it.
(12:07):
Paul said, under theinspiration of the Holy Spirit,
that those powers, if they hadknown what was going to happen
to them by killing Jesus See,the Romans didn't kill Jesus,
the Jews didn't kill Jesus.
Satan put it in the heart ofthose leaders to do his bidding.
Okay, they would not havekilled him if they had known the
(12:28):
plan.
But the plan was hidden becausethe Bible says the mystery of
the church is what Paul calls it.
There's a mystery called thechurch.
Yeah, all right.
So that's my point.
Now let me show you this.
Ephesians, chapter five, verse32, is equating.
It's that famous passagehusbands love your wives even as
Christ loved the church, andall that kind of stuff.
At the end of it, paul saysthis is a great mystery.
(12:51):
He's talking about husbands andwives, and he's talking about
Jesus and the church.
And he's equating Jesus and thechurch, jesus being the husband
and the church being the bride.
And he says this is a greatmystery.
But I speak concerning Christand the church.
(13:12):
So the church is a mystery, allright.
First of all, the church is notdirectly talked about in the Old
Testament.
Okay, there's another thingthat's not directly talked about
in the Old Testament.
You ready?
1 Corinthians, 15, 51.
Behold, I show you a mystery.
We shall not all sleep, but weshall all be changed In a moment
(13:33):
.
The twinkling of an eye at thelast trump, for the trumpet
shall sound and the dead shallbe raised, incorruptible, and we
shall be changed the rapture orthe sudden catching away.
Here's my argument.
Okay, is hidden, shielded,until John 14, when Jesus is
(13:54):
like hey, let not your heart betroubled, you believe in God,
believe also in me.
I'm going to prepare a place.
Add in a room onto the Father'shouse.
Okay, it is hidden.
Adding a room onto the Father'shouse?
Okay, it is hidden.
At John 14, 15, and 16, jesusgets into some things that have
never been openly talked about,and it's the rapture of the
church, it's the preparation forhis people.
(14:14):
He also begins to talk aboutthe Holy Spirit living and
indwelling you.
Okay, this is groundbreakingterritory.
And he waits till Judas is outof the room.
Satan enters, judas leaves theroom, jesus starts downloading
doctrine that he wants hisdisciples and apostles to know,
and that is one cool thing.
(14:35):
So when you say, well, it's nottalked about, all the way out
through the Bible, you only seeit here and there, I know
because it's been a secret, butit's a secret that now, in
hindsight, looking back on allof scripture, I think we can see
, and I would even argue thatyou say, well, it's not talked
about in the Old Testament.
Matt (14:55):
The idea is yeah, the idea is clearly talked about,
because where did the weddingceremony and the wedding the way
, and the wedding the way to doa wedding?
Where did it come from?
Brandon (15:08):
Right, it was looking forward to Christ and his bride.
Yeah, also, the idea of thesecret catching away, elijah
Enoch, all throughout.
Okay, new Testament, paul, theidea is there.
The catching away.
God sometimes takes people awayand he can do that.
Okay.
So that's one thing.
(15:30):
Now another thing is this youknow a lot of people say well,
you pre-tribbers, you just wantto escape the wrath of God.
Okay, you want to escapetribulation.
And I get that.
I mean, you're pushing back.
And let me be clear aboutsomething Even as a
pre-tribulation believer, I donot believe that that is going
(15:52):
to protect us from all badthings in tribulation leading up
to the moment of what I believeis the pre-tribulation rapture.
I think things can get very,very bad on this earth before
Jesus comes back.
I believe that I can facepersecution, martyrdom.
(16:14):
Many Christians around theworld are facing it.
I am no better than they are.
Just because I'm in theAmerican church doesn't mean
that I'm not going to facetribulation.
I am very susceptible totribulation, and so is all of us
(16:34):
as Christians.
Okay, but there's a differencein bad things happening to you
and I think the what's going tohappen during those seven years,
what we have seen on this earthfor 2000 years is not going to
compare to those seven years andreally not going to compare to
those seven years and really notgoing to compare to the last
three and a half years of thoseseven years.
Okay, but and I would pointthis out the purpose of the
(16:55):
tribulation listen to me is not.
Here's the purpose of thetribulation, is not the church.
There I said it.
The purpose and the focus ofthe seven-year tribulation is
not the church.
Okay, it's not to beat us up.
(17:17):
It's not proving ground for meto prove my faith by living
through some tribulation.
Okay, if you believe that youhave to prove yourself and prove
yourself through a tribulationto be saved, then you believe in
work, salvation and you need toget saved because you've never
truly believed by grace, throughfaith.
(17:37):
If you're saved, you're saved.
All right, yeah, all right.
The purpose of the tribulationis two reasons.
Okay, two reasons.
Daniel tells us clearly whatthey are.
Okay, he says the last sevenyears.
I'll read it to you, daniel.
Chapter number nine maybe themost fascinating chapter in all
the Bible.
(17:57):
Okay, maybe the mostfascinating four verses in all
the Bible.
Here's what Daniel says themost fascinating four verses in
all the Bible.
Here's what Daniel says.
He says in Daniel, chapternumber nine, verse number 24, 70
weeks are determined upon thypeople and upon thy holy city to
finish the transgression and tomake an end of sins and to make
reconciliation for iniquity andto bring in everlasting
(18:19):
righteousness and to seal up thevision and prophecy and to
anoint the most holy.
Know, therefore, and understandthat from the going forth of the
commandment to restore andbuild Jerusalem under the
Messiah, now here, verse 27.
(18:39):
Himself and the people of theprince that shall come shall
destroy the city of thesanctuary and the end thereof
shall be with a flood and underthe end of the war.
Desolations are determined.
Now here, verse 27 he shallconfirm the covenant with many
for one week, and in the midstof the week he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation tocease for the overspreading of
abominations.
(19:00):
He shall make it desolate evenuntil the consummation, and that
determined shall be poured uponthe desolate.
Now, if you've never read that,that's like whoa.
What did he just say?
Okay, big highlights.
Daniel says 70 weeks aredetermined upon.
Here's the key thy people.
Who was Daniel's people?
The Jews, okay, and thy holycity.
(19:23):
Where was Daniel from?
And taken by Babylon out ofJerusalem.
The purpose of the full 70weeks, okay, which is 490 years
Basically.
If you study Daniel 9, there's490 years, 70 weeks, 77s Okay,
determined upon Israel andJerusalem.
(19:46):
Okay, 483 of those have alreadyhappened.
And we know, because we cantrack with history, that there
was a carrying away into Babylonand we know that there was how
much time that was, and we knowthat there was how much time
that was, and we know that theywere allowed to go back.
And from that time to theMessiah, you can do the math.
I know some of you may notbelieve me but, daniel, if you
(20:09):
study what I just read to you,you will come to the realization
that Daniel prophesied, 600years before it happened, the
precise day Jesus would bepresented as Messiah.
And if you follow what he saidin here, the proclamation from
(20:30):
Cyrus to the Messiah beingpresented is 173,880 days, 483
Jewish years, okay, you can dothe math on it.
And that's the day that Jesusrode in on the donkey.
The Bible says when he rides inon a donkey they're going to
kill him.
And the 483 years there's apause there.
(20:50):
So there's 490 years total,confirmed or determined upon the
Jewish people and uponJerusalem.
That's what God told Daniel.
483 years have happened alreadyand it ended.
The 483rd year ended with thedeath of Jesus, and for 2,000
years we have been in a pause,and verse 27 says that we are
(21:11):
waiting for a he to confirm thecovenant for one more week and
we're waiting on the fulfillmentof the last seven years of
human history.
Okay, that is where we get theseven-year tribulation.
Okay, it is seven years, buthere's the point and I said all
(21:34):
of that and probably lost someof you to say this the purpose
of the seven years is notAmerica, it's not the church,
it's Israel and it's Jerusalem.
If you study the Old Testament,when David had a desire to
(21:55):
build the house of God and God'slike no, I'm not gonna let you
do it God already had picked outJerusalem as the place where
his name would dwell, okay.
So when you study Jerusalem,that's God's city.
All right, that's God's cityand he.
(22:18):
The end of human history.
Those final seven years, okay,are all about Israel and all
about the nation of Israel andthe city of Jerusalem.
That's why it's called the timeof Jacob's trouble.
Who's Jacob?
His name was changed to what?
Israel?
Israel?
Okay, that's why?
(22:39):
Now listen to me, becauseIsrael, israel, okay, that's why
now listen to me, because I'mon pokes I just I want to
present my view on this, but Iwant you to hear me out.
Okay, I think there's a lot ofevidence for pre-tribulation
rapture and I want you tounderstand, first of all, that
the purpose of the tribulationis not us.
The purpose of the tribulationis not for the church to prove
(23:00):
itself through the tribulation.
That's not the purpose.
In fact, we're told that wewill not be subject to the wrath
of God.
Okay, we'll talk about that ina second, but I'm trying to get
you to see the purpose of itbefore I tell you what our
purpose is.
Yeah, when we go to Matthew 24and 25, and Jesus is talking a
lot about prophecy, there's somuch bad doctrine that comes out
(23:21):
of it because people startequating it and tying it.
Well, that's America, oh,that's the church.
Oh, it says elect, that's savepeople, and they start applying
these verses to people thatJesus is not talking about.
Matt (23:33):
Okay, Matthew, and that's something that I've observed
about a lot of post-trib peoplethat believe post-trib.
They also tend to believereplacement theology.
Brandon (23:48):
Tell everybody what replacement theology is.
Matt (23:50):
So replacement theology is basically that the church
replaced Israel as the chosenpeople of God Right.
Brandon (24:02):
Right, and that's not true.
And we do not believe that.
Matt (24:04):
Yeah, neither you or me, no, no, you can poke so many
holes in that that it's not evenfunny.
Brandon (24:11):
Now are we made partakers of the promise and
heirs of the promise Graftedinto the tree.
Matt (24:18):
The wild olive branch is grafted into Right.
The wild olive branches graftedinto Right.
Brandon (24:22):
And we're children of Abraham by faith.
All that stuff, yes, but we didnot replace Israel.
God has never given up onIsrael as a nation.
God made promises and covenantswith them.
Yes, okay, the seven years isto drive Israel back to their
God and to deal with the enemiesthat come against Israel and
(24:45):
Jerusalem.
Matt (24:46):
That's the purpose of it, and you see that throughout the
Old Testament.
What happens when they strayaway from God?
Right, he uses a tribulation ofsome sort to push them back to
him.
Push them back.
Brandon (25:06):
I think that's why Matthew 24, listen to this.
Before you start applyingverses to everybody in the
church, look at Matthew 24, 9.
It says Then they shall deliveryou up to be afflicted and
shall kill you, and you shall behated of all nations, for my
namesake who's Jesus talkinghere to you should be hated of
(25:28):
all nations.
He's talking to his innercircle, disciples who are asking
him eschatology questions, okay, and he says you're going to be
hated of all nations.
He's talking about the Jews,yeah, okay, no doubt.
That's why he says in verse 20,but pray ye that your flight be
not in the winter, neither onthe Sabbath day.
If he's talking to Gentiles,they don't care if it's on the
(25:49):
Sabbath day or not, but he'sgiving a warning.
He's talking to the Jewishpeople.
So the church is a mystery,rapture is a mystery.
The seven-year period at theend of time, daniel's 70th week,
the time of Jacob's trouble.
That is Israel-focused andJerusalem-focused.
Okay, now let's address thatverse that we've talked about 1
(26:14):
Thessalonians 5.9.
I don't know if you have thatone.
Matt (26:17):
Yeah, I've got it right here.
5.9,.
For God hath not appointed usto wrath, but to obtain
salvation by our Lord JesusChrist.
Brandon (26:24):
So God hath not appointed us to wrath.
So this one is the one that thepre-tribbers quote, the
mid-tribbers quote and thepre-rathers quote yeah, god hath
not appointed us to wrath.
So, in other words, the brideof Christ is the church and the
wrath of God will not be pouredout on the church.
(26:45):
So the church has to be gonebefore the wrath of God.
So pre-tribbers say well, thewhole seven years is the wrath
of God, so we've got to gobefore it.
And the mid-tribbers say well,the wrath starts in the middle,
the abomination and desolation,or somewhere around there.
So we've got to go then.
And the pre-rathers say thewrath of God starts at the bold
(27:06):
judgment.
So whenever the bold judgmentsstart, that's when we're going.
Right, yeah, okay.
Now here's what I want to sayin regards to that.
I completely agree with that.
And the church of God?
Now think about this.
We're not subject to wrath.
Why?
Matt (27:30):
Because the wrath of God.
Why is the wrath of God pouredout on a people?
Because they've sinned, boom,they've sinned, run away from
him.
Brandon (27:36):
They've sinned.
So God pours out his wrath uponthe sinner.
From him, they've sinned.
So God pours out his wrath uponthe sinner.
If I'm a believer in Christ, Iam made justified in the eyes of
God.
Okay, I am no longer a sinnerin his eyes.
I'm justified just as if I'dnever sinned.
Okay, so what happens?
God is not going to punish mefor my sin, because my sin was
(27:57):
taken by Jesus Christ.
So that is why the pre and themid and the pre-wrath stand that
the church cannot be under thejudgment of God because we've
received the justification fromthe Lord.
Okay, I hope that makes senseand I think that's true.
I think all three viewpointshold that and should hold that.
(28:19):
But here's what I want to showyou, and I want to throw this
out to you, matt, because welooked last episode at
Revelation 15, where it saysthat the angel was I'm
paraphrasing the bowls, theseven bowls of the wrath of God,
and they're being poured out,and it says the wrath of God.
(28:41):
But if you go and you look atthe entirety of the book of
Revelation, the phrase wrath ofGod is used a long time before
Revelation 15,.
Okay, and in fact, inRevelation 6, it's used, and I
want to read that to you.
Revelation, chapter 6, this isnow.
This is the beginning of theseven years.
Okay, revelation 6 to 18 coversseven years.
(29:05):
It's divided up into the seals,then the trumpets, then the
bowls.
Okay, here's what Revelation 6,verse number 16, says.
It says and said to us.
(29:33):
Let me back up to verse 15.
It says that sitteth on thethrone and from the wrath of the
Lamb.
Okay, the people on earth atthe beginning of the tribulation
are recognizing that what'shappening to them is the wrath
of the Lamb being poured out.
That's what they're saying.
(29:53):
It is Okay.
Now, that verse by the way, alittle side note here freaks me
out a little bit, because thinkof these people going through
the tribulation.
And the Bible says and I can'tremember where it does it it
says the heavens will be rolledup like a scroll.
Okay, yeah.
And they say hide us from theface of him that sitteth on the
(30:16):
throne.
These are the lost men of theearth hiding in the dens of the
caves.
And they said hide us from theface of the lamb, the wrath of
the lamb, the face of him thatsitteth on the throne, and from
the wrath of the lamb, so hideus from the father.
Apparently, they can see thethrone.
Apparently, they can see theface of the lamb.
(30:39):
And it says I don't know ifthis is the dimensional thing
that they, that there's someblinders removed or the heavens
are rolled back.
I don't know, but they arescared of what they are seeing
around them.
And then verse 17 says for thegreat day of his wrath has come,
and who should be able to stand?
(30:59):
So as a pre-tribber, I say thewrath is the whole seven years.
Okay, we got some scripture toback that up, that the wrath is
the whole seven years.
A couple side notes of that isthis In Revelation 5, which is
(31:19):
the chapter right before it,it's the Lamb of God that was
slain.
Jesus, taking the seven-sealedbook right, who opens the seals?
There's only one worthy to openthe seals, and the seals
release judgments.
Right, the horsemen and thedeath and the war and the famine
(31:39):
and all this and the pestilence.
So, but who is opening it?
Who?
Okay, who is letting all thatin?
If I open the door, I'm the oneletting it in.
If I open the seals, I'm theone letting it in.
So who is allowing the wrath tocome.
It's Jesus.
(32:00):
So Jesus is the one taking thebook, breaking the seals.
So is it?
Natural disasters?
A lot in the first half of thetribulation?
Yes, yeah, but who's causingthe natural disasters?
And what are they?
Jesus is causing them and it'sthe wrath of the Lamb.
Matt (32:16):
Okay, so Hit me Chapter 6.
Okay, happ, chapter 6 happens,after which seal.
Brandon (32:24):
Chapter 6 is the beginning of the seal.
So you have it divided into,you know, you see the white
horse and you see the red horseand you see the black horse and
you see the pale horse.
Okay, so it's 1, 2, three, four, five, six seals.
And then you see these mencrying out that we just read.
(32:46):
And chapter seven is kind of aparenthetical pause, I think,
but yeah, Go ahead.
Matt (32:54):
That's what I'm asking, is okay.
So those six or seven seals,how far into the tribulation do
those take you before you havethe people with the wrath?
Well, clearly See what I'msaying.
I'm coming at you from a mid, apre-trib point or a pre-wrath
(33:17):
point.
Brandon (33:17):
Okay, so I think, if you read it in your literal, the
seals open the trumpets and thetrumpets open the bowls.
Okay, so in the seals, theseals are referred to as the
wrath of God, becauseeverybody's running from
everything happening.
I think they're looking backduring the sixth seal and saying
(33:41):
, oh crap, all this stuff'shappening and this is the wrath
of the Lamb.
Seal one, two, three, four,five.
And here we are at six, but Ithink by six they're realizing
this is the wrath of the Lamb.
Hide us from it.
That's what I'm saying.
So I contend that the wrath ofGod starts at seal one, seal one
.
Okay, if that clarifies.
Matt (34:00):
Yeah yeah, that's what I was getting at.
Yeah, no, I like that Becauseyou've got those seals that are
being opened Right and then theycall it the wrath of God.
Brandon (34:10):
Right, but they're referring to everything that has
happened because they've beenwatching first five seals.
I think it's rapid succession.
I mean, I think that and I maybe gullible on this, but I think
that you know, if you know, ifsix is the seals, I think the
seals are the first part of thetribulation.
Okay, I think chapter nine, andyou know 10, 11, you're getting
(34:33):
to the midpoint of thetribulation, chapter 13, and all
that when you know, when therise of the Antichrist and the
abomination of desolation andthe mark of the beast and all
that.
You're getting toward the end.
So I think you have to take atleast part of it chronologically
, because there is a naturalbuilding.
Matt (34:49):
I agree, and there are some people out there that will
teach that these seven overlayeach other, right Okay, these
seven overlay each other, rightOkay, and that each seal is a
year and each trumpet's a yearand each bowl's a year.
But if you read it in context,when he opens that seventh seal,
(35:11):
you see the angel with thetrumpet or you see the trumpets
being given out.
Brandon (35:17):
And you've got to read it.
As John said.
Said it because he'll be likeand then, and then.
Matt (35:22):
So they are consecutive upon each other.
The seals, trumpets and bowlsRight, so that piece has to be a
consecutive section.
Brandon (35:33):
I agree with that completely.
Okay, and I'm just looking overa couple other points to add.
If you look at, for example, 1Thessalonians 5, 6, paul is
writing and he said but of thetimes and of the seasons,
brethren, you have no need thatI write unto you, for yourselves
(35:54):
know perfectly that the day ofthe Lord so cometh as a thief in
the night, for when they shallsay peace and safety, then
sudden destruction cometh uponthem.
Notice that the day of the Lordcomes as a thief in the night,
but what you're going to findout as you read this, it doesn't
come as a thief in the night tous who are saved.
It comes as a thief in thenight upon them is what it says
(36:18):
in verse three, as travail upona woman with child.
And they shall not escape, they, not us, they.
But ye, brethren, are not indarkness that that day should
overtake you as a thief.
So that day of the Lord is notto be a surprise to us, right?
Ye are all the children oflight, ye are all and the
(36:38):
children of the day.
We are not of the night nor ofdarkness.
Watch this verse 6.
Therefore, let us not sleep asdo others, but let us watch and
be sober, for they that sleepsleep in the night and they that
be drunken or drunken in thenight.
But let us who are of the daybe sober, putting on the
breastplate of faith and of lovefor an helmet.
The hope of salvation, for Godhath not appointed us to wrath.
(36:59):
So Paul is saying look, you'renot going to be.
Your eyes are to be wide open.
And guess what?
At the end of chapter four,he's like comfort one another
with these words You're notgoing to be subject to the wrath
of God.
So here's the point, and ifyou've been around pre-trib very
much, this is one of the big.
(37:20):
There's a doctrine of eminencetaught in Scripture.
Yeah, that the writers ofScripture, through the
inspiration of the Holy Spirit,are saying at any time the Lord
can come back.
Be ready, have your eyes wideopen, don't be drunk, as in the
night And—.
Matt (37:35):
He can come at any time.
I'm surprised I didn't findthat verse in any of the people
that I looked at that were doingthe partial rapture stuff.
Right, right, yeah, because Icould see that being twisted
Right so like okay, these areall believers and only the
believers that are not gettingdrunk are going.
(37:58):
You know what I'm saying andyou've also got in your notes
the James 5.
Yeah, you got that.
Yes, so James 5, 8 and 9.
Be also patient.
Establish your hearts for thecoming of the Lord.
Draweth nigh Grudge, not oneagainst another brethren, lest
ye be condemned.
(38:18):
Behold, the judge standethbefore the door, so the judge is
at the door.
Brandon (38:24):
It's like ready Paul refers to I can't remember if
it's Peter or Paul but to livingin the last days.
Yeah, so they saw, and there isa idea of imminence.
And what we mean by imminenceis that at any time there's an
imminent return of Christ comingand it could happen, boom, okay
(38:46):
, and that's what I believe as apre-tribulation rapture.
I believe that there's nothingbiblically that has to happen
before the Lord's return.
That's where I believe.
So I believe that today, beforethis podcast end, I could be
gone.
So I believe that today, beforethis podcast end, I could be
gone.
Okay, that's what I believe.
All right, now, if you took amid-tribulation view or a
(39:06):
pre-wrath, you would not believethat.
Okay, and we're going todevelop that in a little while.
And that's where, like amid-trib and a pre-wrath and a
post-trib.
That's why sometimes peoplesend me messages I'm a pastor of
a local church.
They'll say are we already inthe tribulation?
Is this the sixth seal?
(39:27):
Is this the, this trumpet?
And you know they'll say thisand I'm like no, no, first of
all, the rapture hadn't happenedright, and so that's my first
thing, right.
There's things I have toproceed before the Antichrist
shows up.
And the Antichrist shows upbegins the seven years.
Daniel says he confirms thecovenant.
So the Antichrist is thetrigger for the seven years.
(39:47):
So he has to be on the scene.
And he's not on the scene yet.
So we're not in the tribulation.
That's my point.
I guess what I'm bouncingaround it, but that's the point.
Now I want to show you thisAnother evidence for a
pre-tribulation rapture and Ithink, a really, really good one
Revelation 19.
Okay, last week we readRevelation 19, 11 through 16,
(40:09):
the second coming of Jesus,coming as the warrior, king of
kings, lord of lords, right,okay.
Well, now I know what you'regoing to say.
You're going to say well, isRevelation written
chronologically?
But let me say this Before youget to verse 11 through 16, you
got to read verses 1 through 15.
All right For sure.
And before you get there, verse11 says this okay, let us be
(40:34):
glad and rejoice and give honorto him, for the marriage of the
Lamb is come and his wife hathmade herself ready and to her
was granted that she should bearrayed in fine linen, clean and
white, for the fine linen isthe righteousness of saints.
And he saith unto me Right.
Blessed are they which arecalled unto the marriage supper
of the Lamb.
He saith unto me these are thetrue sayings of God.
(40:55):
I fell at his feet to worshiphim and he said unto me See,
thou do it not, I am thy fellowservant and of thy brethren that
have the testimony of Jesus.
Worship God, for the testimonyof Jesus is the spirit of
prophecy.
So, verse seven and eight wesee the marriage supper of the
lamb and the lamb.
We know that the bride of Christis the church.
Ephesians tells us that.
Okay, no, no, many reallyargues that.
(41:17):
You know, christ marries thechurch.
Okay, well, the Bible says thatthe marriage of the Lamb has
come in verse 7.
All right, jesus doesn't returnto the earth until verse 11
through 16.
So, prior to the second comingis the marriage of the Lamb.
Who does the Lamb marry?
He marries the church.
(41:37):
Well, the church has to bewhere he is, which is in heaven,
to get married to him.
You follow what I'm saying?
Okay, so there's a progressionpoint that really hurts.
Post-trib, really bad again.
But then think about this,notice this.
And to her, that's, the bride,was granted that she should be a
(41:58):
red and fine linen.
Okay, what is fine linen.
It is clean and white, and finelinen is the righteousness of
saints.
When we trust Christ, we areclothed with Christ, we receive
his righteousness, we areclothed with that.
Then, if you look at the secondcoming Jesus comes back verse
14,.
And the armies which were inheaven followed him upon white
(42:23):
horses, clothed in fine linen,white and clean.
Well, fine linen, white andclean, is defined in verse 8 as
the righteousness of the saints.
And those wearing therighteousness of the saints and
the clean and fine linen are thebride of Christ.
So the bride of Christ is inheaven.
They are the armies.
Notice that.
Notice, it says in the armieswhich were in heaven.
(42:44):
And the armies which were inheaven followed him upon white
horses.
Who's clothed in fine linen,who's riding the white horses?
It's the bride coming with himwho just left heaven.
So they were in heaven alreadyat the marriage supper of the
lamb.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's adeath nail for post-trib.
Matt (43:09):
It is, it really is that's a killer, that's a killer.
Sorry post-trib people, we loveyou.
Brandon (43:20):
You just are wrong, I don't you, you just are wrong, I
don't know.
Matt (43:25):
You've got to read it in context.
Just because you want it to betrue doesn't mean that it is
true.
Brandon (43:31):
Yep, and notice, we have not said to the
mid-tribbers or the pre-rathersthat you're wrong and I'm not
picking and choosing, I'm justsaying post-trib's hard to
defend.
If you're a bucket full ofwater, you're leaking a lot of
water out the holes, man,because we can poke a lot into
that.
We also looked at John 14already.
(43:52):
I want to look at this.
I want to go to 2 Thessaloniansokay, 2 Thessalonians, and
maybe this is my favoriteevidence, what I believe,
evidence of preacher rapture 2Thessalonians If you're not
picking up, 1 Thessalonians and2 Thessalonians have a lot of
eschatology in them.
(44:12):
They're some of Paul's earliestwritings, we believe, and
they're very clear on whathappens.
Now watch this 2 Thessalonians,2, okay.
Now I want to show you severalverses in this because I want to
(44:34):
break this down.
This is you know you broughtout the wedding is a big cog in
your.
It's pretty convincing, okay.
Matt (44:45):
Especially when it's referenced in Revelation right
before the second coming Rightthe wedding, the marriage supper
.
Brandon (44:52):
That's right, and the supper usually happens at the
after the wedding, I mean, sothe wedding's been going on
Anyway.
So 2 Thessalonians 2 talksabout the day of the Lord, or
the day of Christ that's coming,the revealing of what most
people refer to as theAntichrist, what 2 Thessalonians
refers to as the man of sin.
(45:12):
Okay, and I want you to seethis.
So Paul is writing to thechurch in Thessalonica and he
says this Now we beseech you,brethren, by the coming of our
Lord, jesus Christ, and by ourgathering together unto him,
that you be not soon shaken inmind or be troubled, neither by
spirit, nor by word, nor byletter, as from us, as that the
(45:34):
day of Christ is at hand.
So apparently somebody hadwritten some letters that
freaked all the church atThessalonica out, that they were
in the tribulation, they werein the seven years, the day of
the vengeance and the wrath ofthe Lord, right, the day of
Christ.
Paul's writing and he's likeI'm writing this to you so you
(45:55):
don't get soon shaken in mind ortroubled, right?
And then Paul tells them somethings that are going to happen
and what to watch for Now.
Watch this, let no man deceiveyou by any means.
By the way, matthew 24, whenthey ask Jesus the questions
about prophecy, the first thinghe says is don't be deceived.
There's a lot of deceptionaround eschatological questions.
(46:26):
Let no man deceive you by anymeans, for that day shall not
come except there come a fallingaway first and that man of sin
be revealed, the son ofperdition.
So two things the Antichristhas to be revealed, the son of
perdition, okay.
So two things the antichristhas to be revealed and there's a
(46:46):
falling away first.
Okay.
Now, um, there is a leading umpre-trib scholar, uh, and you
can look him up online and I'velistened to a lot of his stuff
and he's smart, written a lot ofbooks.
Tommy Ice, okay, is his name.
He is, I think he's been apastor professor.
(47:08):
He's written books, all thiskind of stuff.
He goes into the Greek thereand he says that there the
falling away or most peoplewould say the apostasia can mean
a catching away or falling away, or most people would say the
apostasia can mean a catchingaway or a falling away, okay.
So he makes an argument therethat I don't know, that I can
(47:31):
make and don't have the skillsto make.
But check Tommy Ice out on 2Thessalonians 2, verse 3.
Okay, but he says there will bea falling away first and that
man of sin be revealed.
We are already seeing anapostasy from sound doctrine.
Okay, a falling away in ourworld.
(47:52):
And then he says the man of sinwill be revealed, the son of
perdition.
So the man of sin and the sonof perdition, same individual.
What does he do?
He opposes who opposes andexalteth himself above all that
is called God or that isworshiped, so that he, as God,
(48:12):
sitteth in the temple of God,showing himself that he is God.
Okay, and we know that theAntichrist shows up on the scene
and by the midpoint he's in thetemple, proclaiming that he's
God.
Okay, but watch what he says.
Remember ye not that when I wasyet with you, I told you these
things.
So Paul had told the church inThessalonica and taught them all
(48:35):
about this end time stuff.
Okay, remember ye not.
I just read that.
And now you know whatwithholdeth that he might be
revealed in his time.
Now watch this, for the mysteryof iniquity doth already work.
Now watch this right here.
Only he who now letteth willlet until he be taken out of the
(49:02):
way.
Now, what I just read to you isnot how we talk anymore.
Okay, but let me change a wordthere.
I'm reading to you 1611 KingJames, english right Close,
re-edited in 1769, right.
So I'm reading to you OldEnglish, okay, and it says this
(49:24):
only he who now letteth will let.
Now, that word let, there isthe word hinder, okay.
He that hinders or restrainswill restrain until he be taken
out of the way.
Now, if you go look up thatGreek word and you study it out,
(49:44):
you're going to find that whatwe call what many people call
the restrainer of 2Thessalonians 2 is the mystery
of iniquity.
Doth already work.
But there is a restrainerholding back wickedness and evil
on this earth, and at somepoint in the future, paul says
(50:05):
here until he be taken out ofthe way.
So there's a restrainer holdingback evil and wickedness in the
world and he's going to betaken away.
And when he's taken away, watchthis until he be taken out of
the way.
And then that wicked capital Wthat name okay, or 7, is taken
(50:27):
away, then the wicked onereferred to a couple of verses
(50:50):
earlier as the man of sin or theson of perdition can be
revealed.
But the restrainer has to betaken away first, and then shall
that wicked be revealed, whomthe Lord shall consume with the
spirit of his mouth and shalldestroy with the brightness of
his coming, even him whosecoming is after the working of
Satan, with all power and signsand lying wonders.
(51:10):
So nobody argues Antichrist isgoing to show up that wicked or
that son of perdition, man ofsin, whatever.
He's going to have all power,or he's going to have all power
and signs and lying warnersthat's what the Bible says and
with all deceivableness ofunrighteousness in them that
perish.
So he's going to be a deceiverright.
Because they receive not thelove of the truth that they
(51:32):
might be saved, and for thiscause God gave, god should give
them over, give them strongdelusion that they should
believe a lie, that they allmight be damned who believe not
the truth but had pleasure inunrighteousness.
So a couple of things to ponderon.
There is a restrainer holdingback wickedness in the world,
(51:52):
and this right here might be oneof the single pieces that
convinced me to be a pre-trib.
There's a restrainer holdingback wickedness in the world.
When that restrainer is removed, the wicked one can be revealed
, but he cannot be revealed yetbecause the restrainer is
holding back.
The restrainer is the cog.
That must be removed.
(52:12):
The restrainer is that linchpinthat has to be taken out for
that trigger for the Antichristto be revealed, okay.
Question is whorist to berevealed?
Okay.
Question is who's therestrainer?
Okay, who's the restrainerthat's holding back evil?
My supposition is that therestrainer is the Holy Spirit of
(52:33):
God.
Okay, and the Holy Spirit ofGod inhabits every believer.
What Know you not that yourbody is the temple of the Holy
Ghost?
Okay, so the Holy Spirit livesin every believer, indwells us
and holds back evil.
Okay, and the restrainer willbe removed.
(52:54):
If the restrainer is the HolySpirit, where does the Holy
Spirit reside?
He resides in Matt, he residesin me, he resides in every
believer.
And if that is the trigger thatallows the Antichrist to be
revealed, the restrainer isremoved.
And if the restrainer is theHoly Spirit and the Holy Spirit
lives in me, then do the math.
(53:14):
Then I have to be taken away,caught up, raptured, suddenly
taken away in order for thattrigger to be tripped, for the
Antichrist to be revealed andconfirm the covenant for seven
years.
That make sense?
It does, it does.
I'm not saying believe it, I'mnot saying agree with it, but
(53:35):
that's a strong piece of myargument.
Matt (53:37):
It makes sense.
Brandon (53:38):
It's a strong piece of my argument.
Matt (53:48):
Yeah, yep argument, it makes sense, it's a strong piece
of my argument.
Brandon (53:50):
Um, yeah, yep.
So now, when is he taking away?
Matt (53:51):
though, when is he yeah, when is he revealed as the son
of perdition?
Brandon (53:55):
well, the bible says, when the restrainer is taken out
of the way, and then shall thatwicked be revealed?
So I think the restrainer beingremoved is the trigger.
Then the Antichrist is revealed.
That's why people say well,this politician or that
politician is the Antichrist.
Maybe, maybe not, we don't know.
(54:16):
And I don't think we will knowuntil the restrainer is removed
and I'm not going to be here, soI don't care.
Matt (54:21):
Think we will know until the restrainer is removed and
I'm not going to be here, so Idon't care.
Yeah, and that that I actuallyfound that with somebody using
that with a mid-trip.
Brandon (54:28):
Okay.
Matt (54:29):
They're saying that middle of the tribulation, when it's
removed, then he's revealed.
That's why he stands up in thetemple.
Brandon (54:38):
I got you.
But my argument to that wouldbe Daniel 9, 27,.
He has to be on the scene toconfirm the covenant, to start
the seven years to begin with,but is that him being revealed
when he starts the?
Covenant.
That's a good pushback againstit.
Matt (54:54):
They were actually debating back and forth, and
that was one of the key points,one of the key points.
Brandon (55:00):
The Bible says that he will confirm the covenant with
many, so he will be part of agroup leading, but then he will
rise above the group and becomethe single.
So there is an argument there.
Matt (55:15):
So, and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one
week, and in the midst of theweek he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation tocease, and for the overspreading
of abominations, he shall makeit desolate even until the
consummation, and thatdetermined shall be poured out
upon the desolate.
Brandon (55:32):
And the word desolate is used, which is key back to
the abomination of desolation.
Matt (55:39):
And you know, it's like the amillennials.
They'll say oh well, theabomination of desolation was
Antiochus, epiphanes, right, butthat was before Christ.
And what did Christ say?
Right, right, he said when yousee the abomination that makes
it desolate.
(55:59):
And Jesus already knew aboutAntiochus as Daniel said Right,
and Jesus clearly knew aboutAntiochus because he celebrated.
Brandon (56:07):
But is yet pointing to a future event.
Matt (56:09):
Yeah, so did it happen in the past?
Yes, yeah, but Jesus tells usclearly that it's going to
happen again in the future.
Brandon (56:18):
Right, right Well there's a lot there Are there
points to be made for, I think,in summation, you know, and one
thing that I would just say inclosing, on a pre-trib side too,
is you know, and these are theclassic arguments, revelation,
(56:41):
chapter number four.
Well, let me just say this,because this is phenomenal in my
viewpoint the whole book ofRevelation is divided into an
outline of John, write thethings which you've seen, write
the things which are, write thethings which shall be hereafter.
And I think that's the outlinefor the book of Revelation.
(57:04):
I think the things which you'veseen is chapter one, the things
which are, I think, arechapters two and three, which is
the church age, and the thingswhich are hereafter, I think,
are the future events.
The Greek is the metatauda, andI think it's after the
metatauta, after these things,what are these things?
(57:24):
It's the church age.
So I think the chapter 2 and 3of Revelation deals with the
church and I think chapter 4 onturns the page to the things
that are after the church.
So that would be anotherevidence.
Maybe we could go into anothertime, because that would be a
good thing to look at.
Matt (57:43):
I think we need another episode on another one.
Brandon (57:46):
I would love to defend that because when you get down
to that Revelation, chapter 4verse 1 says that John heard a
trumpet and was caught up toheaven.
So there's rapture type imagerythere and from chapter 4
through the rest of thetribulation the word church is
(58:09):
not mentioned anymore.
Okay, so these are arguments tobe made.
Matt (58:15):
And if you look at the 144,000 preachers that are
called, they're all Jewish.
Brandon (58:23):
Yep.
Well, there are 12,000 fromeach tribe and it's very Jewish
and it's yep.
So, anyway, well, we are goingto say goodnight for this
episode, but I think we shouldcarry on and let's go to
Revelation, kind of look at theoutline of that for a little
while.
But we want to wish you a goodnight, share the broadcast with
us.
We love you guys.
Chime in, leave us a comment.
(58:43):
We appreciate you listening andwe're going to have another
exciting broadcast very soon andwe'll see you soon.
God bless you and we love youand we're praying for you and we
hope you know the Lord Jesusand if you don't call on him,
get in the Bible.
Listen to our podcast.
The first five episodes tellyou how to get into a
(59:04):
relationship with Christ andwhat happens when you trust
Christ.
We love you and we want thistool to be used to help you and
we wish you a good night andwe'll see you later.
The Bible says.
The Bible says Podcast.
Podcast.
What does the Bible say ?
The Bible says the Bible sayspodcast.
All right, man, we are back.
We are back.
Episode seven we are back.
We are back.
Episode 7, bible Says Podcast.
We got into a lively debate inour last episode on the rapture,
(00:34):
and so I'm very curious, as webegin to get feedback from folks
, what they think about this,because this is a hot button
issue.
We said last time this is notsomething to divide over.
If you have faith in Christ andyou're washed in the blood of
the Lamb and you came the way ofthe blood, you're my brother
and sister in Christ.
I'm not going to fight over itwith you when you believe the
(00:55):
rapture is, that sure is fun totalk about.
Yeah.
Matt (00:58):
And it's cool, it's enjoyable, it is.
Brandon (01:05):
And you, I mean, and you don't have to agree on
everything, right, right, andthat's so true.
We looked last time atdifferent beliefs on timing of
the rapture and we kind ofconcluded I think both of you
and I believe it is verydefendable that the idea of the
rapture the harpazo is a betterword the catching away is all
(01:28):
throughout the Bible and isgoing to happen someday, no
matter where you put it post,pre, mid, pre-wrath, wherever,
stick a pin wherever you want,but it's going to happen.
There is a catching away of thedead in christ and those who
are alive and remain.
So the bible's pretty clearabout that.
I think, um, so, uh, we want todo that now tonight.
(01:51):
Well, let me say this last timewe looked at post and we looked
at per uh, midpost-tribulationism,
mid-tribulationism and pre-race,okay, and there also is
somebody out there who believesin what do they believe in?
Matt (02:06):
They believe in a partial rapture, a partial rapture Like
your top half goes up.
Well, that's kind of my diginto it.
They basically believe that ifyou are alive and ready and
(02:30):
believe that the rapture iscoming and you're not living in
sin, you're going to go in therapture.
But if you are not spirituallyprepared for the rapture, you
don't go spiritually preparedfor the rapture?
Brandon (02:47):
you don't go.
Okay, so here's what we'll sayabout that.
Okay, go listen to episodes onethrough five of the Bible Says
podcast what Happens to you whenyou Get Saved.
And once you're saved, you arejustified in the eyes of God.
And when he's ready to go,you're ready to go.
Okay, so fix your theology.
I'm.
He's ready to go, you're readyto go.
Okay, so fixture theology.
(03:07):
I'm not even going to arguethat one.
Yeah, we can put a pin in thatone.
Yeah, we'll put a pin in thatone.
Yeah, you crazy, you believethat.
Matt (03:14):
Yeah, and they base most of it on like.
I mean, they use 1 Corinthians,15, 51 to 52.
They say there's going to be arapture, but then they'll say
like John 39 and 40.
It says if you're not ready togo, you're not going.
Brandon (03:34):
Cherry pick a verse or two.
Matt (03:37):
I mean literally.
That's all that I can findverse-wise to support anywhere
even close.
Brandon (03:41):
But we brought it up.
So if you believe that outthere, we brought it up and we
addressed you.
We just do not concur, so tosay the least.
But anyway, we're poking fun atyou and feel free to poke fun
back, just be nice.
We're doing it tongue in cheek.
So, anyway, we are tonightgoing to defend the
(04:02):
pre-tribulation rapture, or I am, and I'm going to do my best to
attempt to convince Matt ofpre-tribulation rapture.
But he brought up some goodpoints last episode about the
Jewish wedding and the bleedover of the Jewish wedding to
the concept of the rapture, andthose are one of the things that
make him believe that, one ofthe things that make him believe
(04:29):
that.
Now let me say this I want tolook at John, chapter number 14.
I want to show you this wedon't think of John 14 as a
rapture passage, but I thinkit's one of my favorite ones.
Okay, and people don't eventhink of it.
A lot of people read it atfunerals and read it around the
bedside of a dying loved one.
I've done the same.
It says let not your heart betroubled.
(04:51):
You believe in God, believealso in me.
In my father's house are manymansions that word is the word
rooms, and modern translationssay that which makes sense.
In my Father's house are manymansions.
It has to mean rooms, becausein His house are many rooms off
of His house.
It makes sense, okay.
(05:12):
If it were not so, I would havetold you.
I go to prepare a place for you, okay.
So Jesus is about to die.
He's telling His disciples I'mgoing to go away, I've told you,
but I'm going.
Okay, in my father's house aremany rooms.
If it were not so, I would havetold you I go to prepare a
place for you.
So Jesus said I'm going toprepare a place for you and if I
(05:35):
go and prepare a place for you,I will come again and receive
or take you with me unto myself.
That where I am there, you maybe also.
And whither I go, you know, andthe way you know.
And Jesus says later I am theway, the truth and the life.
(05:56):
Okay, no man cometh unto theFather, but by me.
So Jesus basically says now,here's what you need to do.
Okay, and this I think if youbreak down those three or four
verses, you're going to findthis that Jesus said I'm going
to prepare a place for you andI'm going to come and receive
you to myself and take you tothat place.
That's clearly what he'simplying.
Yeah, okay.
Matt (06:17):
And that ties perfectly in to the Jewish wedding, to the
Jewish wedding.
Brandon (06:34):
Absolutely so.
Also, let me just say this asit ties back to as being a
pre-tribulationist.
We talked about post-trib lasttime.
I think this goes againstpost-trib, because Jesus went to
prepare a place, added a roomonto the Father's house for me
and he's going to take me there,okay.
So if you believe in post,remember, okay, jesus is coming
down at the second coming, so Igot to go up at that same time,
(06:57):
meet him and welcome him andthen come right back down.
I ain't got time to go to theFather's house, but Jesus said
I'm going to prepare a place foryou and I'm going time to go to
the Father's house.
But Jesus said I'm going toprepare a place for you and I'm
going to take you to theFather's house.
So there is a taking to theFather's house, okay.
So I believe that's why, in mypersonal opinion, post-trib is
(07:19):
if I'm looking at the four, okay, and you're narrowing it down,
post-trib's out the windowbecause there's a few
cataclysmic death nails to thatargument, okay.
And I think, if you're honest,don't just pull one little bit
of Scripture, look at it in itsentirety, okay, and look at this
Scripture.
And this Scripture, if it's theteaching of the Word of God.
(07:40):
It should mesh like hand inglove.
Okay, but you brought up theJewish wedding too in my
father's house.
So describe to us what happenedin a Jewish wedding that makes
you see the bleed over.
Matt (07:51):
Okay, so you would have a betrothal in a Jewish wedding.
Okay, so the groom would comeand tell the bride that you're
getting married.
He would pay the price,literally, for the bride.
Okay, then you're betrothed,right, okay.
Brandon (08:14):
So the groom paid a price for the bride.
Yes, okay, what did Jesus dofor us?
He paid her price.
He paid a price what?
No, you're bought with a priceYou're not your own.
Okay, yeah, so he paid a price.
Matt (08:30):
So he paid a price.
Okay, now the groom did nottake his bride with him when he
paid for her at the betrothal.
What was he doing?
So he would go back to hisfather's house and add a bridal
suite onto the father's house.
I think you know they livedcommunally, right?
(08:52):
So you would live with yourparents and with your family,
but you would build your ownroom Right Onto the house, okay,
onto the house, okay.
And then later you never knewthe time which the bride was, or
(09:13):
the groom was coming back forthe bride Okay, but they would
have a processional and he wouldcome back blowing a trumpet, no
less, to pick up the bride, andthen he would take the bride
back to his father's house.
They would begin the wholeJewish wedding ceremony of the
(09:37):
wedding supper, etc.
And complete the marriage.
We'll keep it civil.
On the podcast, consummate,consummate, yes, there's the
word I was looking for.
He would consummate themarriage and basically display
the blood for the father to see.
(09:59):
Right, that, there's a ton ofmarriage language in.
Brandon (10:09):
And the bride and the groom.
If you study it out, they wentinto a chuppah is the Hebrew
word, okay, what they called it?
Yeah, the Jewish word.
And they stayed there for aweek, yeah, and they got to know
each other.
Remember, they had never slepttogether.
Matt (10:27):
They had never been together.
Brandon (10:28):
Nothing, nothing.
So they get to know each other.
How long is the seven-year?
We call it the tribulationperiod.
We talked about it last week.
The last three and a half yearsare technically the great
tribulation but it's aseven-year period.
It's a seven-year period, soseven years, seven days.
There's a lot of similaritiesof the bride and the groom
spending that much time together.
Matt (10:47):
Yeah, and for me for pre-trib, that is probably my
strongest argument or mystrongest reason to believe in
pre-trib.
Brandon (10:59):
That is a strong one.
I'm going to give you some more, though.
Matt (11:01):
Are you?
Brandon (11:02):
ready, you go for it, all right.
So, defending the pre-trib, letme say this In defending the
pre-trib, one of the pushbacksthat people always say is well,
word rapture is not in the Bible.
You're reading it intoscripture.
You believe in a secret rapture.
Stop interposing yourpreconceived notion in the Bible
and all that kind of stuff.
And I get it.
Awesome, well-received, got it.
(11:23):
But let me say this to you Somepeople say well, the rapture.
If the rapture was this secretrapture, brandon, that you talk
about prior to the second comingand a different event
altogether, don't you think Godwould talk about it in the Old
Testament?
And my answer to that is no, Idon't, for two reasons.
(11:45):
Okay, god, and if you read thewritings of Paul, you will have
to conclude this God hid certainthings in plain sight, okay?
So the enemy, satan and hisevil forces, fallen angels,
demonic powers, principalities,powers, rulers of the darkness
of this world, would not pick upon it.
(12:07):
Paul said, under theinspiration of the Holy Spirit,
that those powers, if they hadknown what was going to happen
to them by killing Jesus See,the Romans didn't kill Jesus,
the Jews didn't kill Jesus.
Satan put it in the heart ofthose leaders to do his bidding.
Okay, they would not havekilled him if they had known the
(12:28):
plan.
But the plan was hidden becausethe Bible says the mystery of
the church is what Paul calls it.
There's a mystery called thechurch.
Yeah, all right.
So that's my point.
Now let me show you this.
Ephesians, chapter five, verse32, is equating.
It's that famous passagehusbands love your wives even as
Christ loved the church, andall that kind of stuff.
At the end of it, paul saysthis is a great mystery.
(12:51):
He's talking about husbands andwives, and he's talking about
Jesus and the church.
And he's equating Jesus and thechurch, jesus being the husband
and the church being the bride.
And he says this is a greatmystery.
But I speak concerning Christand the church.
(13:12):
So the church is a mystery, allright.
First of all, the church is notdirectly talked about in the Old
Testament.
Okay, there's another thingthat's not directly talked about
in the Old Testament.
You ready?
1 Corinthians, 15, 51.
Behold, I show you a mystery.
We shall not all sleep, but weshall all be changed In a moment
(13:33):
.
The twinkling of an eye at thelast trump, for the trumpet
shall sound and the dead shallbe raised, incorruptible, and we
shall be changed the rapture orthe sudden catching away.
Here's my argument.
Okay, is hidden, shielded,until John 14, when Jesus is
(13:54):
like hey, let not your heart betroubled, you believe in God,
believe also in me.
I'm going to prepare a place.
Add in a room onto the Father'shouse.
Okay, it is hidden.
Adding a room onto the Father'shouse?
Okay, it is hidden.
At John 14, 15, and 16, jesusgets into some things that have
never been openly talked about,and it's the rapture of the
church, it's the preparation forhis people.
(14:14):
He also begins to talk aboutthe Holy Spirit living and
indwelling you.
Okay, this is groundbreakingterritory.
And he waits till Judas is outof the room.
Satan enters, judas leaves theroom, jesus starts downloading
doctrine that he wants hisdisciples and apostles to know,
and that is one cool thing.
(14:35):
So when you say, well, it's nottalked about, all the way out
through the Bible, you only seeit here and there, I know
because it's been a secret, butit's a secret that now, in
hindsight, looking back on allof scripture, I think we can see
, and I would even argue thatyou say, well, it's not talked
about in the Old Testament.
Matt (14:55):
The idea is yeah, the idea is clearly talked about,
because where did the weddingceremony and the wedding the way
, and the wedding the way to doa wedding?
Where did it come from?
Brandon (15:08):
Right, it was looking forward to Christ and his bride.
Yeah, also, the idea of thesecret catching away, elijah
Enoch, all throughout.
Okay, new Testament, paul, theidea is there.
The catching away.
God sometimes takes people awayand he can do that.
Okay.
So that's one thing.
(15:30):
Now another thing is this youknow a lot of people say well,
you pre-tribbers, you just wantto escape the wrath of God.
Okay, you want to escapetribulation.
And I get that.
I mean, you're pushing back.
And let me be clear aboutsomething Even as a
pre-tribulation believer, I donot believe that that is going
(15:52):
to protect us from all badthings in tribulation leading up
to the moment of what I believeis the pre-tribulation rapture.
I think things can get very,very bad on this earth before
Jesus comes back.
I believe that I can facepersecution, martyrdom.
(16:14):
Many Christians around theworld are facing it.
I am no better than they are.
Just because I'm in theAmerican church doesn't mean
that I'm not going to facetribulation.
I am very susceptible totribulation, and so is all of us
(16:34):
as Christians.
Okay, but there's a differencein bad things happening to you
and I think the what's going tohappen during those seven years,
what we have seen on this earthfor 2000 years is not going to
compare to those seven years andreally not going to compare to
those seven years and really notgoing to compare to the last
three and a half years of thoseseven years.
Okay, but and I would pointthis out the purpose of the
(16:55):
tribulation listen to me is not.
Here's the purpose of thetribulation, is not the church.
There I said it.
The purpose and the focus ofthe seven-year tribulation is
not the church.
Okay, it's not to beat us up.
(17:17):
It's not proving ground for meto prove my faith by living
through some tribulation.
Okay, if you believe that youhave to prove yourself and prove
yourself through a tribulationto be saved, then you believe in
work, salvation and you need toget saved because you've never
truly believed by grace, throughfaith.
(17:37):
If you're saved, you're saved.
All right, yeah, all right.
The purpose of the tribulationis two reasons.
Okay, two reasons.
Daniel tells us clearly whatthey are.
Okay, he says the last sevenyears.
I'll read it to you, daniel.
Chapter number nine maybe themost fascinating chapter in all
the Bible.
(17:57):
Okay, maybe the mostfascinating four verses in all
the Bible.
Here's what Daniel says themost fascinating four verses in
all the Bible.
Here's what Daniel says.
He says in Daniel, chapternumber nine, verse number 24, 70
weeks are determined upon thypeople and upon thy holy city to
finish the transgression and tomake an end of sins and to make
reconciliation for iniquity andto bring in everlasting
(18:19):
righteousness and to seal up thevision and prophecy and to
anoint the most holy.
Know, therefore, and understandthat from the going forth of the
commandment to restore andbuild Jerusalem under the
Messiah, now here, verse 27.
(18:39):
Himself and the people of theprince that shall come shall
destroy the city of thesanctuary and the end thereof
shall be with a flood and underthe end of the war.
Desolations are determined.
Now here, verse 27 he shallconfirm the covenant with many
for one week, and in the midstof the week he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation tocease for the overspreading of
abominations.
(19:00):
He shall make it desolate evenuntil the consummation, and that
determined shall be poured uponthe desolate.
Now, if you've never read that,that's like whoa.
What did he just say?
Okay, big highlights.
Daniel says 70 weeks aredetermined upon.
Here's the key thy people.
Who was Daniel's people?
The Jews, okay, and thy holycity.
(19:23):
Where was Daniel from?
And taken by Babylon out ofJerusalem.
The purpose of the full 70weeks, okay, which is 490 years
Basically.
If you study Daniel 9, there's490 years, 70 weeks, 77s Okay,
determined upon Israel andJerusalem.
(19:46):
Okay, 483 of those have alreadyhappened.
And we know, because we cantrack with history, that there
was a carrying away into Babylonand we know that there was how
much time that was, and we knowthat there was how much time
that was, and we know that theywere allowed to go back.
And from that time to theMessiah, you can do the math.
I know some of you may notbelieve me but, daniel, if you
(20:09):
study what I just read to you,you will come to the realization
that Daniel prophesied, 600years before it happened, the
precise day Jesus would bepresented as Messiah.
And if you follow what he saidin here, the proclamation from
(20:30):
Cyrus to the Messiah beingpresented is 173,880 days, 483
Jewish years, okay, you can dothe math on it.
And that's the day that Jesusrode in on the donkey.
The Bible says when he rides inon a donkey they're going to
kill him.
And the 483 years there's apause there.
(20:50):
So there's 490 years total,confirmed or determined upon the
Jewish people and uponJerusalem.
That's what God told Daniel.
483 years have happened alreadyand it ended.
The 483rd year ended with thedeath of Jesus, and for 2,000
years we have been in a pause,and verse 27 says that we are
(21:11):
waiting for a he to confirm thecovenant for one more week and
we're waiting on the fulfillmentof the last seven years of
human history.
Okay, that is where we get theseven-year tribulation.
Okay, it is seven years, buthere's the point and I said all
(21:34):
of that and probably lost someof you to say this the purpose
of the seven years is notAmerica, it's not the church,
it's Israel and it's Jerusalem.
If you study the Old Testament,when David had a desire to
(21:55):
build the house of God and God'slike no, I'm not gonna let you
do it God already had picked outJerusalem as the place where
his name would dwell, okay.
So when you study Jerusalem,that's God's city.
All right, that's God's cityand he.
(22:18):
The end of human history.
Those final seven years, okay,are all about Israel and all
about the nation of Israel andthe city of Jerusalem.
That's why it's called the timeof Jacob's trouble.
Who's Jacob?
His name was changed to what?
Israel?
Israel?
Okay, that's why?
(22:39):
Now listen to me, becauseIsrael, israel, okay, that's why
now listen to me, because I'mon pokes I just I want to
present my view on this, but Iwant you to hear me out.
Okay, I think there's a lot ofevidence for pre-tribulation
rapture and I want you tounderstand, first of all, that
the purpose of the tribulationis not us.
The purpose of the tribulationis not for the church to prove
(23:00):
itself through the tribulation.
That's not the purpose.
In fact, we're told that wewill not be subject to the wrath
of God.
Okay, we'll talk about that ina second, but I'm trying to get
you to see the purpose of itbefore I tell you what our
purpose is.
Yeah, when we go to Matthew 24and 25, and Jesus is talking a
lot about prophecy, there's somuch bad doctrine that comes out
(23:21):
of it because people startequating it and tying it.
Well, that's America, oh,that's the church.
Oh, it says elect, that's savepeople, and they start applying
these verses to people thatJesus is not talking about.
Matt (23:33):
Okay, Matthew, and that's something that I've observed
about a lot of post-trib peoplethat believe post-trib.
They also tend to believereplacement theology.
Brandon (23:48):
Tell everybody what replacement theology is.
Matt (23:50):
So replacement theology is basically that the church
replaced Israel as the chosenpeople of God Right.
Brandon (24:02):
Right, and that's not true.
And we do not believe that.
Matt (24:04):
Yeah, neither you or me, no, no, you can poke so many
holes in that that it's not evenfunny.
Brandon (24:11):
Now are we made partakers of the promise and
heirs of the promise Graftedinto the tree.
Matt (24:18):
The wild olive branch is grafted into Right.
The wild olive branches graftedinto Right.
Brandon (24:22):
And we're children of Abraham by faith.
All that stuff, yes, but we didnot replace Israel.
God has never given up onIsrael as a nation.
God made promises and covenantswith them.
Yes, okay, the seven years isto drive Israel back to their
God and to deal with the enemiesthat come against Israel and
(24:45):
Jerusalem.
Matt (24:46):
That's the purpose of it, and you see that throughout the
Old Testament.
What happens when they strayaway from God?
Right, he uses a tribulation ofsome sort to push them back to
him.
Push them back.
Brandon (25:06):
I think that's why Matthew 24, listen to this.
Before you start applyingverses to everybody in the
church, look at Matthew 24, 9.
It says Then they shall deliveryou up to be afflicted and
shall kill you, and you shall behated of all nations, for my
namesake who's Jesus talkinghere to you should be hated of
(25:28):
all nations.
He's talking to his innercircle, disciples who are asking
him eschatology questions, okay, and he says you're going to be
hated of all nations.
He's talking about the Jews,yeah, okay, no doubt.
That's why he says in verse 20,but pray ye that your flight be
not in the winter, neither onthe Sabbath day.
If he's talking to Gentiles,they don't care if it's on the
(25:49):
Sabbath day or not, but he'sgiving a warning.
He's talking to the Jewishpeople.
So the church is a mystery,rapture is a mystery.
The seven-year period at theend of time, daniel's 70th week,
the time of Jacob's trouble.
That is Israel-focused andJerusalem-focused.
Okay, now let's address thatverse that we've talked about 1
(26:14):
Thessalonians 5.9.
I don't know if you have thatone.
Matt (26:17):
Yeah, I've got it right here.
5.9,.
For God hath not appointed usto wrath, but to obtain
salvation by our Lord JesusChrist.
Brandon (26:24):
So God hath not appointed us to wrath.
So this one is the one that thepre-tribbers quote, the
mid-tribbers quote and thepre-rathers quote yeah, god hath
not appointed us to wrath.
So, in other words, the brideof Christ is the church and the
wrath of God will not be pouredout on the church.
(26:45):
So the church has to be gonebefore the wrath of God.
So pre-tribbers say well, thewhole seven years is the wrath
of God, so we've got to gobefore it.
And the mid-tribbers say well,the wrath starts in the middle,
the abomination and desolation,or somewhere around there.
So we've got to go then.
And the pre-rathers say thewrath of God starts at the bold
(27:06):
judgment.
So whenever the bold judgmentsstart, that's when we're going.
Right, yeah, okay.
Now here's what I want to sayin regards to that.
I completely agree with that.
And the church of God?
Now think about this.
We're not subject to wrath.
Why?
Matt (27:30):
Because the wrath of God.
Why is the wrath of God pouredout on a people?
Because they've sinned, boom,they've sinned, run away from
him.
Brandon (27:36):
They've sinned.
So God pours out his wrath uponthe sinner.
From him, they've sinned.
So God pours out his wrath uponthe sinner.
If I'm a believer in Christ, Iam made justified in the eyes of
God.
Okay, I am no longer a sinnerin his eyes.
I'm justified just as if I'dnever sinned.
Okay, so what happens?
God is not going to punish mefor my sin, because my sin was
(27:57):
taken by Jesus Christ.
So that is why the pre and themid and the pre-wrath stand that
the church cannot be under thejudgment of God because we've
received the justification fromthe Lord.
Okay, I hope that makes senseand I think that's true.
I think all three viewpointshold that and should hold that.
(28:19):
But here's what I want to showyou, and I want to throw this
out to you, matt, because welooked last episode at
Revelation 15, where it saysthat the angel was I'm
paraphrasing the bowls, theseven bowls of the wrath of God,
and they're being poured out,and it says the wrath of God.
(28:41):
But if you go and you look atthe entirety of the book of
Revelation, the phrase wrath ofGod is used a long time before
Revelation 15,.
Okay, and in fact, inRevelation 6, it's used, and I
want to read that to you.
Revelation, chapter 6, this isnow.
This is the beginning of theseven years.
Okay, revelation 6 to 18 coversseven years.
(29:05):
It's divided up into the seals,then the trumpets, then the
bowls.
Okay, here's what Revelation 6,verse number 16, says.
It says and said to us.
(29:33):
Let me back up to verse 15.
It says that sitteth on thethrone and from the wrath of the
Lamb.
Okay, the people on earth atthe beginning of the tribulation
are recognizing that what'shappening to them is the wrath
of the Lamb being poured out.
That's what they're saying.
(29:53):
It is Okay.
Now, that verse by the way, alittle side note here freaks me
out a little bit, because thinkof these people going through
the tribulation.
And the Bible says and I can'tremember where it does it it
says the heavens will be rolledup like a scroll.
Okay, yeah.
And they say hide us from theface of him that sitteth on the
(30:16):
throne.
These are the lost men of theearth hiding in the dens of the
caves.
And they said hide us from theface of the lamb, the wrath of
the lamb, the face of him thatsitteth on the throne, and from
the wrath of the lamb, so hideus from the father.
Apparently, they can see thethrone.
Apparently, they can see theface of the lamb.
(30:39):
And it says I don't know ifthis is the dimensional thing
that they, that there's someblinders removed or the heavens
are rolled back.
I don't know, but they arescared of what they are seeing
around them.
And then verse 17 says for thegreat day of his wrath has come,
and who should be able to stand?
(30:59):
So as a pre-tribber, I say thewrath is the whole seven years.
Okay, we got some scripture toback that up, that the wrath is
the whole seven years.
A couple side notes of that isthis In Revelation 5, which is
(31:19):
the chapter right before it,it's the Lamb of God that was
slain.
Jesus, taking the seven-sealedbook right, who opens the seals?
There's only one worthy to openthe seals, and the seals
release judgments.
Right, the horsemen and thedeath and the war and the famine
(31:39):
and all this and the pestilence.
So, but who is opening it?
Who?
Okay, who is letting all thatin?
If I open the door, I'm the oneletting it in.
If I open the seals, I'm theone letting it in.
So who is allowing the wrath tocome.
It's Jesus.
(32:00):
So Jesus is the one taking thebook, breaking the seals.
So is it?
Natural disasters?
A lot in the first half of thetribulation?
Yes, yeah, but who's causingthe natural disasters?
And what are they?
Jesus is causing them and it'sthe wrath of the Lamb.
Matt (32:16):
Okay, so Hit me Chapter 6.
Okay, happ, chapter 6 happens,after which seal.
Brandon (32:24):
Chapter 6 is the beginning of the seal.
So you have it divided into,you know, you see the white
horse and you see the red horseand you see the black horse and
you see the pale horse.
Okay, so it's 1, 2, three, four, five, six seals.
And then you see these mencrying out that we just read.
(32:46):
And chapter seven is kind of aparenthetical pause, I think,
but yeah, Go ahead.
Matt (32:54):
That's what I'm asking, is okay.
So those six or seven seals,how far into the tribulation do
those take you before you havethe people with the wrath?
Well, clearly See what I'msaying.
I'm coming at you from a mid, apre-trib point or a pre-wrath
(33:17):
point.
Brandon (33:17):
Okay, so I think, if you read it in your literal, the
seals open the trumpets and thetrumpets open the bowls.
Okay, so in the seals, theseals are referred to as the
wrath of God, becauseeverybody's running from
everything happening.
I think they're looking backduring the sixth seal and saying
(33:41):
, oh crap, all this stuff'shappening and this is the wrath
of the Lamb.
Seal one, two, three, four,five.
And here we are at six, but Ithink by six they're realizing
this is the wrath of the Lamb.
Hide us from it.
That's what I'm saying.
So I contend that the wrath ofGod starts at seal one, seal one
.
Okay, if that clarifies.
Matt (34:00):
Yeah yeah, that's what I was getting at.
Yeah, no, I like that Becauseyou've got those seals that are
being opened Right and then theycall it the wrath of God.
Brandon (34:10):
Right, but they're referring to everything that has
happened because they've beenwatching first five seals.
I think it's rapid succession.
I mean, I think that and I maybe gullible on this, but I think
that you know, if you know, ifsix is the seals, I think the
seals are the first part of thetribulation.
Okay, I think chapter nine, andyou know 10, 11, you're getting
(34:33):
to the midpoint of thetribulation, chapter 13, and all
that when you know, when therise of the Antichrist and the
abomination of desolation andthe mark of the beast and all
that.
You're getting toward the end.
So I think you have to take atleast part of it chronologically
, because there is a naturalbuilding.
Matt (34:49):
I agree, and there are some people out there that will
teach that these seven overlayeach other, right Okay, these
seven overlay each other, rightOkay, and that each seal is a
year and each trumpet's a yearand each bowl's a year.
But if you read it in context,when he opens that seventh seal,
(35:11):
you see the angel with thetrumpet or you see the trumpets
being given out.
Brandon (35:17):
And you've got to read it.
As John said.
Said it because he'll be likeand then, and then.
Matt (35:22):
So they are consecutive upon each other.
The seals, trumpets and bowlsRight, so that piece has to be a
consecutive section.
Brandon (35:33):
I agree with that completely.
Okay, and I'm just looking overa couple other points to add.
If you look at, for example, 1Thessalonians 5, 6, paul is
writing and he said but of thetimes and of the seasons,
brethren, you have no need thatI write unto you, for yourselves
(35:54):
know perfectly that the day ofthe Lord so cometh as a thief in
the night, for when they shallsay peace and safety, then
sudden destruction cometh uponthem.
Notice that the day of the Lordcomes as a thief in the night,
but what you're going to findout as you read this, it doesn't
come as a thief in the night tous who are saved.
It comes as a thief in thenight upon them is what it says
(36:18):
in verse three, as travail upona woman with child.
And they shall not escape, they, not us, they.
But ye, brethren, are not indarkness that that day should
overtake you as a thief.
So that day of the Lord is notto be a surprise to us, right?
Ye are all the children oflight, ye are all and the
(36:38):
children of the day.
We are not of the night nor ofdarkness.
Watch this verse 6.
Therefore, let us not sleep asdo others, but let us watch and
be sober, for they that sleepsleep in the night and they that
be drunken or drunken in thenight.
But let us who are of the daybe sober, putting on the
breastplate of faith and of lovefor an helmet.
The hope of salvation, for Godhath not appointed us to wrath.
(36:59):
So Paul is saying look, you'renot going to be.
Your eyes are to be wide open.
And guess what?
At the end of chapter four,he's like comfort one another
with these words You're notgoing to be subject to the wrath
of God.
So here's the point, and ifyou've been around pre-trib very
much, this is one of the big.
(37:20):
There's a doctrine of eminencetaught in Scripture.
Yeah, that the writers ofScripture, through the
inspiration of the Holy Spirit,are saying at any time the Lord
can come back.
Be ready, have your eyes wideopen, don't be drunk, as in the
night And—.
Matt (37:35):
He can come at any time.
I'm surprised I didn't findthat verse in any of the people
that I looked at that were doingthe partial rapture stuff.
Right, right, yeah, because Icould see that being twisted
Right so like okay, these areall believers and only the
believers that are not gettingdrunk are going.
(37:58):
You know what I'm saying andyou've also got in your notes
the James 5.
Yeah, you got that.
Yes, so James 5, 8 and 9.
Be also patient.
Establish your hearts for thecoming of the Lord.
Draweth nigh Grudge, not oneagainst another brethren, lest
ye be condemned.
(38:18):
Behold, the judge standethbefore the door, so the judge is
at the door.
Brandon (38:24):
It's like ready Paul refers to I can't remember if
it's Peter or Paul but to livingin the last days.
Yeah, so they saw, and there isa idea of imminence.
And what we mean by imminenceis that at any time there's an
imminent return of Christ comingand it could happen, boom, okay
(38:46):
, and that's what I believe as apre-tribulation rapture.
I believe that there's nothingbiblically that has to happen
before the Lord's return.
That's where I believe.
So I believe that today, beforethis podcast end, I could be
gone.
So I believe that today, beforethis podcast end, I could be
gone.
Okay, that's what I believe.
All right, now, if you took amid-tribulation view or a
(39:06):
pre-wrath, you would not believethat.
Okay, and we're going todevelop that in a little while.
And that's where, like amid-trib and a pre-wrath and a
post-trib.
That's why sometimes peoplesend me messages I'm a pastor of
a local church.
They'll say are we already inthe tribulation?
Is this the sixth seal?
(39:27):
Is this the, this trumpet?
And you know they'll say thisand I'm like no, no, first of
all, the rapture hadn't happenedright, and so that's my first
thing, right.
There's things I have toproceed before the Antichrist
shows up.
And the Antichrist shows upbegins the seven years.
Daniel says he confirms thecovenant.
So the Antichrist is thetrigger for the seven years.
(39:47):
So he has to be on the scene.
And he's not on the scene yet.
So we're not in the tribulation.
That's my point.
I guess what I'm bouncingaround it, but that's the point.
Now I want to show you thisAnother evidence for a
pre-tribulation rapture and Ithink, a really, really good one
Revelation 19.
Okay, last week we readRevelation 19, 11 through 16,
(40:09):
the second coming of Jesus,coming as the warrior, king of
kings, lord of lords, right,okay.
Well, now I know what you'regoing to say.
You're going to say well, isRevelation written
chronologically?
But let me say this Before youget to verse 11 through 16, you
got to read verses 1 through 15.
All right For sure.
And before you get there, verse11 says this okay, let us be
(40:34):
glad and rejoice and give honorto him, for the marriage of the
Lamb is come and his wife hathmade herself ready and to her
was granted that she should bearrayed in fine linen, clean and
white, for the fine linen isthe righteousness of saints.
And he saith unto me Right.
Blessed are they which arecalled unto the marriage supper
of the Lamb.
He saith unto me these are thetrue sayings of God.
(40:55):
I fell at his feet to worshiphim and he said unto me See,
thou do it not, I am thy fellowservant and of thy brethren that
have the testimony of Jesus.
Worship God, for the testimonyof Jesus is the spirit of
prophecy.
So, verse seven and eight wesee the marriage supper of the
lamb and the lamb.
We know that the bride of Christis the church.
Ephesians tells us that.
Okay, no, no, many reallyargues that.
(41:17):
You know, christ marries thechurch.
Okay, well, the Bible says thatthe marriage of the Lamb has
come in verse 7.
All right, jesus doesn't returnto the earth until verse 11
through 16.
So, prior to the second comingis the marriage of the Lamb.
Who does the Lamb marry?
He marries the church.
(41:37):
Well, the church has to bewhere he is, which is in heaven,
to get married to him.
You follow what I'm saying?
Okay, so there's a progressionpoint that really hurts.
Post-trib, really bad again.
But then think about this,notice this.
And to her, that's, the bride,was granted that she should be a
(41:58):
red and fine linen.
Okay, what is fine linen.
It is clean and white, and finelinen is the righteousness of
saints.
When we trust Christ, we areclothed with Christ, we receive
his righteousness, we areclothed with that.
Then, if you look at the secondcoming Jesus comes back verse
14,.
And the armies which were inheaven followed him upon white
(42:23):
horses, clothed in fine linen,white and clean.
Well, fine linen, white andclean, is defined in verse 8 as
the righteousness of the saints.
And those wearing therighteousness of the saints and
the clean and fine linen are thebride of Christ.
So the bride of Christ is inheaven.
They are the armies.
Notice that.
Notice, it says in the armieswhich were in heaven.
(42:44):
And the armies which were inheaven followed him upon white
horses.
Who's clothed in fine linen,who's riding the white horses?
It's the bride coming with himwho just left heaven.
So they were in heaven alreadyat the marriage supper of the
lamb.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's adeath nail for post-trib.
Matt (43:09):
It is, it really is that's a killer, that's a killer.
Sorry post-trib people, we loveyou.
Brandon (43:20):
You just are wrong, I don't you, you just are wrong, I
don't know.
Matt (43:25):
You've got to read it in context.
Just because you want it to betrue doesn't mean that it is
true.
Brandon (43:31):
Yep, and notice, we have not said to the
mid-tribbers or the pre-rathersthat you're wrong and I'm not
picking and choosing, I'm justsaying post-trib's hard to
defend.
If you're a bucket full ofwater, you're leaking a lot of
water out the holes, man,because we can poke a lot into
that.
We also looked at John 14already.
(43:52):
I want to look at this.
I want to go to 2 Thessaloniansokay, 2 Thessalonians, and
maybe this is my favoriteevidence, what I believe,
evidence of preacher rapture 2Thessalonians If you're not
picking up, 1 Thessalonians and2 Thessalonians have a lot of
eschatology in them.
(44:12):
They're some of Paul's earliestwritings, we believe, and
they're very clear on whathappens.
Now watch this 2 Thessalonians,2, okay.
Now I want to show you severalverses in this because I want to
(44:34):
break this down.
This is you know you broughtout the wedding is a big cog in
your.
It's pretty convincing, okay.
Matt (44:45):
Especially when it's referenced in Revelation right
before the second coming Rightthe wedding, the marriage supper
.
Brandon (44:52):
That's right, and the supper usually happens at the
after the wedding, I mean, sothe wedding's been going on
Anyway.
So 2 Thessalonians 2 talksabout the day of the Lord, or
the day of Christ that's coming,the revealing of what most
people refer to as theAntichrist, what 2 Thessalonians
refers to as the man of sin.
(45:12):
Okay, and I want you to seethis.
So Paul is writing to thechurch in Thessalonica and he
says this Now we beseech you,brethren, by the coming of our
Lord, jesus Christ, and by ourgathering together unto him,
that you be not soon shaken inmind or be troubled, neither by
spirit, nor by word, nor byletter, as from us, as that the
(45:34):
day of Christ is at hand.
So apparently somebody hadwritten some letters that
freaked all the church atThessalonica out, that they were
in the tribulation, they werein the seven years, the day of
the vengeance and the wrath ofthe Lord, right, the day of
Christ.
Paul's writing and he's likeI'm writing this to you so you
(45:55):
don't get soon shaken in mind ortroubled, right?
And then Paul tells them somethings that are going to happen
and what to watch for Now.
Watch this, let no man deceiveyou by any means.
By the way, matthew 24, whenthey ask Jesus the questions
about prophecy, the first thinghe says is don't be deceived.
There's a lot of deceptionaround eschatological questions.
(46:26):
Let no man deceive you by anymeans, for that day shall not
come except there come a fallingaway first and that man of sin
be revealed, the son ofperdition.
So two things the Antichristhas to be revealed, the son of
perdition, okay.
So two things the antichristhas to be revealed and there's a
(46:46):
falling away first.
Okay.
Now, um, there is a leading umpre-trib scholar, uh, and you
can look him up online and I'velistened to a lot of his stuff
and he's smart, written a lot ofbooks.
Tommy Ice, okay, is his name.
He is, I think he's been apastor professor.
(47:08):
He's written books, all thiskind of stuff.
He goes into the Greek thereand he says that there the
falling away or most peoplewould say the apostasia can mean
a catching away or falling away, or most people would say the
apostasia can mean a catchingaway or a falling away, okay.
So he makes an argument therethat I don't know, that I can
(47:31):
make and don't have the skillsto make.
But check Tommy Ice out on 2Thessalonians 2, verse 3.
Okay, but he says there will bea falling away first and that
man of sin be revealed.
We are already seeing anapostasy from sound doctrine.
Okay, a falling away in ourworld.
(47:52):
And then he says the man of sinwill be revealed, the son of
perdition.
So the man of sin and the sonof perdition, same individual.
What does he do?
He opposes who opposes andexalteth himself above all that
is called God or that isworshiped, so that he, as God,
(48:12):
sitteth in the temple of God,showing himself that he is God.
Okay, and we know that theAntichrist shows up on the scene
and by the midpoint he's in thetemple, proclaiming that he's
God.
Okay, but watch what he says.
Remember ye not that when I wasyet with you, I told you these
things.
So Paul had told the church inThessalonica and taught them all
(48:35):
about this end time stuff.
Okay, remember ye not.
I just read that.
And now you know whatwithholdeth that he might be
revealed in his time.
Now watch this, for the mysteryof iniquity doth already work.
Now watch this right here.
Only he who now letteth willlet until he be taken out of the
(49:02):
way.
Now, what I just read to you isnot how we talk anymore.
Okay, but let me change a wordthere.
I'm reading to you 1611 KingJames, english right Close,
re-edited in 1769, right.
So I'm reading to you OldEnglish, okay, and it says this
(49:24):
only he who now letteth will let.
Now, that word let, there isthe word hinder, okay.
He that hinders or restrainswill restrain until he be taken
out of the way.
Now, if you go look up thatGreek word and you study it out,
(49:44):
you're going to find that whatwe call what many people call
the restrainer of 2Thessalonians 2 is the mystery
of iniquity.
Doth already work.
But there is a restrainerholding back wickedness and evil
on this earth, and at somepoint in the future, paul says
(50:05):
here until he be taken out ofthe way.
So there's a restrainer holdingback evil and wickedness in the
world and he's going to betaken away.
And when he's taken away, watchthis until he be taken out of
the way.
And then that wicked capital Wthat name okay, or 7, is taken
(50:27):
away, then the wicked onereferred to a couple of verses
(50:50):
earlier as the man of sin or theson of perdition can be
revealed.
But the restrainer has to betaken away first, and then shall
that wicked be revealed, whomthe Lord shall consume with the
spirit of his mouth and shalldestroy with the brightness of
his coming, even him whosecoming is after the working of
Satan, with all power and signsand lying wonders.
(51:10):
So nobody argues Antichrist isgoing to show up that wicked or
that son of perdition, man ofsin, whatever.
He's going to have all power,or he's going to have all power
and signs and lying warnersthat's what the Bible says and
with all deceivableness ofunrighteousness in them that
perish.
So he's going to be a deceiverright.
Because they receive not thelove of the truth that they
(51:32):
might be saved, and for thiscause God gave, god should give
them over, give them strongdelusion that they should
believe a lie, that they allmight be damned who believe not
the truth but had pleasure inunrighteousness.
So a couple of things to ponderon.
There is a restrainer holdingback wickedness in the world,
(51:52):
and this right here might be oneof the single pieces that
convinced me to be a pre-trib.
There's a restrainer holdingback wickedness in the world.
When that restrainer is removed, the wicked one can be revealed
, but he cannot be revealed yetbecause the restrainer is
holding back.
The restrainer is the cog.
That must be removed.
(52:12):
The restrainer is that linchpinthat has to be taken out for
that trigger for the Antichristto be revealed, okay.
Question is whorist to berevealed?
Okay.
Question is who's therestrainer?
Okay, who's the restrainerthat's holding back evil?
My supposition is that therestrainer is the Holy Spirit of
(52:33):
God.
Okay, and the Holy Spirit ofGod inhabits every believer.
What Know you not that yourbody is the temple of the Holy
Ghost?
Okay, so the Holy Spirit livesin every believer, indwells us
and holds back evil.
Okay, and the restrainer willbe removed.
(52:54):
If the restrainer is the HolySpirit, where does the Holy
Spirit reside?
He resides in Matt, he residesin me, he resides in every
believer.
And if that is the trigger thatallows the Antichrist to be
revealed, the restrainer isremoved.
And if the restrainer is theHoly Spirit and the Holy Spirit
lives in me, then do the math.
(53:14):
Then I have to be taken away,caught up, raptured, suddenly
taken away in order for thattrigger to be tripped, for the
Antichrist to be revealed andconfirm the covenant for seven
years.
That make sense?
It does, it does.
I'm not saying believe it, I'mnot saying agree with it, but
(53:35):
that's a strong piece of myargument.
Matt (53:37):
It makes sense.
Brandon (53:38):
It's a strong piece of my argument.
Matt (53:48):
Yeah, yep argument, it makes sense, it's a strong piece
of my argument.
Brandon (53:50):
Um, yeah, yep.
So now, when is he taking away?
Matt (53:51):
though, when is he yeah, when is he revealed as the son
of perdition?
Brandon (53:55):
well, the bible says, when the restrainer is taken out
of the way, and then shall thatwicked be revealed?
So I think the restrainer beingremoved is the trigger.
Then the Antichrist is revealed.
That's why people say well,this politician or that
politician is the Antichrist.
Maybe, maybe not, we don't know.
(54:16):
And I don't think we will knowuntil the restrainer is removed
and I'm not going to be here, soI don't care.
Matt (54:21):
Think we will know until the restrainer is removed and
I'm not going to be here, so Idon't care.
Yeah, and that that I actuallyfound that with somebody using
that with a mid-trip.
Brandon (54:28):
Okay.
Matt (54:29):
They're saying that middle of the tribulation, when it's
removed, then he's revealed.
That's why he stands up in thetemple.
Brandon (54:38):
I got you.
But my argument to that wouldbe Daniel 9, 27,.
He has to be on the scene toconfirm the covenant, to start
the seven years to begin with,but is that him being revealed
when he starts the?
Covenant.
That's a good pushback againstit.
Matt (54:54):
They were actually debating back and forth, and
that was one of the key points,one of the key points.
Brandon (55:00):
The Bible says that he will confirm the covenant with
many, so he will be part of agroup leading, but then he will
rise above the group and becomethe single.
So there is an argument there.
Matt (55:15):
So, and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one
week, and in the midst of theweek he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation tocease, and for the overspreading
of abominations, he shall makeit desolate even until the
consummation, and thatdetermined shall be poured out
upon the desolate.
Brandon (55:32):
And the word desolate is used, which is key back to
the abomination of desolation.
Matt (55:39):
And you know, it's like the amillennials.
They'll say oh well, theabomination of desolation was
Antiochus, epiphanes, right, butthat was before Christ.
And what did Christ say?
Right, right, he said when yousee the abomination that makes
it desolate.
(55:59):
And Jesus already knew aboutAntiochus as Daniel said Right,
and Jesus clearly knew aboutAntiochus because he celebrated.
Brandon (56:07):
But is yet pointing to a future event.
Matt (56:09):
Yeah, so did it happen in the past?
Yes, yeah, but Jesus tells usclearly that it's going to
happen again in the future.
Brandon (56:18):
Right, right Well there's a lot there Are there
points to be made for, I think,in summation, you know, and one
thing that I would just say inclosing, on a pre-trib side too,
is you know, and these are theclassic arguments, revelation,
(56:41):
chapter number four.
Well, let me just say this,because this is phenomenal in my
viewpoint the whole book ofRevelation is divided into an
outline of John, write thethings which you've seen, write
the things which are, write thethings which shall be hereafter.
And I think that's the outlinefor the book of Revelation.
(57:04):
I think the things which you'veseen is chapter one, the things
which are, I think, arechapters two and three, which is
the church age, and the thingswhich are hereafter, I think,
are the future events.
The Greek is the metatauda, andI think it's after the
metatauta, after these things,what are these things?
(57:24):
It's the church age.
So I think the chapter 2 and 3of Revelation deals with the
church and I think chapter 4 onturns the page to the things
that are after the church.
So that would be anotherevidence.
Maybe we could go into anothertime, because that would be a
good thing to look at.
Matt (57:43):
I think we need another episode on another one.
Brandon (57:46):
I would love to defend that because when you get down
to that Revelation, chapter 4verse 1 says that John heard a
trumpet and was caught up toheaven.
So there's rapture type imagerythere and from chapter 4
through the rest of thetribulation the word church is
(58:09):
not mentioned anymore.
Okay, so these are arguments tobe made.
Matt (58:15):
And if you look at the 144,000 preachers that are
called, they're all Jewish.
Brandon (58:23):
Yep.
Well, there are 12,000 fromeach tribe and it's very Jewish
and it's yep.
So, anyway, well, we are goingto say goodnight for this
episode, but I think we shouldcarry on and let's go to
Revelation, kind of look at theoutline of that for a little
while.
But we want to wish you a goodnight, share the broadcast with
us.
We love you guys.
Chime in, leave us a comment.
(58:43):
We appreciate you listening andwe're going to have another
exciting broadcast very soon andwe'll see you soon.
God bless you and we love youand we're praying for you and we
hope you know the Lord Jesusand if you don't call on him,
get in the Bible.
Listen to our podcast.
The first five episodes tellyou how to get into a
(59:04):
relationship with Christ andwhat happens when you trust
Christ.
We love you and we want thistool to be used to help you and
we wish you a good night andwe'll see you later.
The Bible says.
The Bible says Podcast.
Podcast.
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