#62. Science & Faith| Gods Eye View| Ghost In The Machine| AI Singularity| Transhumanism w/ Trevor Lohman PHD

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
What's up everyone, and welcome back to the Biblical hit Man.
It's me Steve and we got Jesse and I. Joining
us tonight is Trevor Lohman. He's an author, researcher, and
a professor. Folks, we're going to get into some big
scientific terms tonight, so just strap in, buckle up, and
if you want to support our show, make sure hit
that subscribe button. Like the show, share it with your friends,
drop a comment down below if there's anything you want

(00:35):
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(00:58):
Trevor brother, welcome to the show Man. Glad to have you,
Thanks for having me exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is
going to be a fantastic show, an exhilarating show. I
went through your book and I got about ninety percent
of the way through it. It's just there's so many books.
I'm bouncing back and forth with totally and all these

(01:20):
kinds of guests, right everyone, everyone's starting to write down
their thoughts, and I love it. I love it a lot.
You really opened up a realm that I've always had
kind of questions about, you know, I've always I've always
wondered why the scientific realm has always been colliding with
the spiritual religious realm, right, Yeah, And you kind of
open that up in the beginning of the book, and

(01:41):
I love that. Man. But for the folks that are
not familiar with you, if you wouldn't mind just giving
a nice little introduction of yourself and you know where
they can find your book?

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, absolutely, so day job. I'm a clinical neuroscience researcher.
I specialize in a field called vascular neuroscience. But I
kind of have to give a disclaimer. Academic folks, they
kind of adopt a belief that, like any public appearance
they make has to be like centered around their academic persona.

(02:12):
You know, that's not really a philosophy. I've adapted. I
feel like I can have hobbies, you know, So today
I'm so today I'm hearing kind of to talk about
stuff that I'm really passionate about.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
It's just it's not.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Necessarily my my research track or part of my independent
research program, although it's related. So anyway, so if people
want the book, Amazon's really the place to go. God's
Eye View. I named it after this scientific idea that
atheists hold, actually that there's sort of this objective base

(02:48):
truth even in the absence of conscious beings, and it
sort of demands that you accept that there's a God's
eye view, which I've always kind of found a hilarious contradiction.
So yeah, just Amazon's a place to go for the book.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Nice man, Nice, What what got you into writing? And well,
like kind of what what made what motivated you the
most to you know, write this book?

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, what got me into writing? Basically, if you want
to succeed in research, it's you. You would think the
skill would be like mathematics or you know, whatever discipline
you're in, that you'd be the best at that discipline.
But actually to succeed as an academic you have to
be a writer, because that's the job, reading and writing.
And so I just write all the time. But I

(03:35):
all through you know, grad school and postdocs, I always
found myself trying to like make it interesting, and I
was constantly slammed by mentors and bosses like, no, you
just write the cold, hard, boring facts, you know. And
so I've always kind of been looking for an outlet
to write in a way that I thought people would,

(03:57):
you know, try to grasp their attention for a few minutes.
And while I was looking for that outlet, I was
exploring these ideas, you know, I was exploring these ideas
of consciousness. You know, I do neuroscience research, so there's
different segments of neuroscience. There's sort of this like what
what we in the more biomedical side would call like

(04:18):
wo woo consciousness stuff, and then there's the more like
medical pharmaceutical neurodegenerative disease stuff. That's that's where I work.
But man, I am fascinated by the other side of
the right neuroscience, you know, field, and I'm reading the
work and it's it's silly. It's just it's pseudoscientific. It's hilarious.

(04:40):
It's like that everyone's just starting with this presupposition that
consciousness is either not real or an illusion, and then
they're sort of trying to backtrack with experiments to sort
of support that pre ordained conclusion, which is, like, you know,
rule number one and experimentation is you don't do that.
And so I was like, I got obsessed. So I

(05:03):
got obsessed for like a year reading all these neuroscientific papers.
And you know, I'm not saying this from like a
place of arrogance, it's just it's all wrong, you know.
And so I started looking who's doing it right? And
the only other group of scientists with any serious attempt
to understand consciousness is the physicists. So that's what led

(05:25):
to the book.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Wow, you would you say, I mean that there's a
lot of gatekeeping in the scientific community.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean what do you mean by about
that specifically, because there's there's like different gatekeeping, types of
gatekeeping all throughout academia and the scientific community. But here, okay,
here's what I'll say. But maybe I think I know
what you mean. So, like I I'm a mainstream medical guy,
but I enjoy the stuff you guys talk about. I'm

(05:56):
a Christian. I enjoy some of the French stuff, some
of the more conspiratorial stuff. It's just I think because
that's what that's what science kind of is, right, It's
it's you're what it's supposed to be is you're putting,
you're pulling out hypotheses that contradict consensus. Right, You're you're
supposed to be challenging the status quo. And so I

(06:18):
think that's great, but that's not really that's not that
spiritual ethic of science at all. So so, you know,
people have lost a lot of faith in scientific institutions
for good reason probably, and they maybe jump to the
conclusion that there's some sort of a what's the word
I'm looking for, like conscious effort to act a certain

(06:40):
way or to keep certain ideas down. I think it's
more of just kind of human nature. I think it's
more of our instinct to belong and maybe exactly like
we just want to fit in. And we know if
we if we buck convention and come up with a
new idea or dis prove an idea about like a

(07:03):
monolith of you know, a prestigious scientist like you can
get kicked out of the club. And get kicked out
of the club.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
There's a big name that comes to mind right now,
Flint Dibble and the whole handcock you know deal, And
it's like that, it's it's like the culture of of academia.
It's it's it's a part of the entire culture.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
I guess, right, Oh, definitely, it's less it's less out
in the open than I would have thought. It's very
it's very much like the individual scientists do it themselves.
Like it's like an unspoken thing. You just I mean,
you just know in your group of friends, like if
I say this, that's not going to go over well, right, Well,

(07:44):
the same thing in the scientific community. You know, if
everyone you work with is confident that consciousness is an
emergent phenomenon based on computation, and if you say, well
maybe maybe not, Maybe it's a maybe consciousiness isn't created
by the brain, Maybe it's received by the brain. Maybe
it's more like a receiver than a computer. Really, you're

(08:08):
not going to make any friends that way, Like, no
one's going to want to work with you. That's crazy, right,
So it definitely takes it takes a special something. I
think a lot of people get weeded out, and I
think that's that's I think that's what you mean by gaykeeping.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Right, Yeah, yeah, And like pretty much at least with
what we cover, what we've discovered, you know, through our
faith that the world challenges God's word continuously, and I
think that there's an agenda in the scientific community. I
think there's an agenda in the world, and really that
agenda is to disprove anything that points a finger to

(08:45):
God and anything, because because in a way, science, medicine, doctors,
there's like always this God complex behind a lot of
these people that with the knowledge and all of that,
and I think they try to they could ignorantly do it, right.
I'm not saying that they're trying to really do it,
but what's happening is is they hide a lot of

(09:06):
beauty behind science that points to God. Right, and like,
for example, consciousness. Right, I'll tell you what. I'll use
this as an example. We talked about this on one
of our undergrounds recently. You know where the Bible talks
about that lightning was made for the rain, but when

(09:26):
you scientifically look up what lightning does to rain, it
turns it into a natural fertilizer. Oh wow, okay, so
something like that is as simple as you read it
right in the Bible. Scientifically it could be proven. But
then you know these these guys that may not have
been scientists who were writ in the Bible, but they're
very very smart individuals, you know, using a lot of

(09:48):
common sense and logic and just being inspired at the
same time. They're proving a lot of things.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
So what is it? Nitrogen? Is is it that would?

Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, nitrifies the rain, it increases the nitrogen in it,
and then you know, it becomes a natural fertilizer at
that point. But there's so many other things and so
many other examples that you can find in the Bible.
You know, when you really break it down into more
of a complex view, you know, through science, you can

(10:19):
you can see and understand. Oh wow, that kind of
makes sense now, right, Oh, it wasn't just poetry.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah no, no, yeah, I mean there I kind of
I'm not enough of a biblical scholar to have done
a great job with this, but towards the end of
the book, I try to sort of I try to
sort of show the rhymes between the new wave of
quantum mechanical explanations for existence and biblical passages.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
It is there.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
There are there's some stuff that's like, man, that is
pretty cool, how how well that lines up, you know,
just the whole idea of the word. I mean, when
when you start exploring like a Wheeler who's Richard Feynman's mentor,
and I'm blanking on the guy's name. It just won
the Nobel Prize a few years ago. But you start
exploring their idea of how you know, maybe this is

(11:08):
all just an information system. And it said you have
to read the book for me to do a justice.
But it sure sounds a lot like the word. And
then the word made a dwelling among us in flesh,
right it. I mean, listen, you can you can spin
vocabulary in different ways to interpret it differently, but it's

(11:29):
just such a consistent theme throughout the Bible, especially like
the creation account that that that was one of the
first things that actually got me interested in this like
simulation hypothesis stuff because right away, and I'm sure you
guys agree it's soon and I was I've been an
atheist most of my life. I should mention, but right
away when I saw that, I'm like, oh, this is

(11:51):
just God for people who don't want to use the
word like like what you don't you like? Okay? It
was appealing to me because I felt uncomfortable using the
word God. When I started doing interviews, I would even
sort of dance around, not wanting to say I was
a Christian because I was still kind of unsure, you know,
But man simulation hypothesis is like this beautiful little conceptualization

(12:14):
of God that you don't have to use any of
the naughty words for atheists. You know, you don't have
to say creation, you don't have to say God, you
don't have to say Jesus. But pretty quickly, if you're
intellectually honest, I think you realize that that's silly, right,
what are you doing? Like you're creating belief systems for
yourself that mirror the existing systems that have been around

(12:35):
for thousands of years. Anyway, So you brought us on
this point. There's actually a point I wanted to make
that I feel like you're kind of alluding to, which
is this idea of science now, not in the past,
but science now sort of attempts to relegate all the
spiritual ideas to the mundane, to the physical. I think

(12:57):
there's also sort of an opposing for on the religious
side that I also think we should kind of call out,
which is just because something has an explanation that's physical
doesn't necessarily take away its specialness or its divinity. Right,
we are physical creatures. That's a Christian concept. We're embodied

(13:21):
with the with the soul, with what that's not physical,
but our existence is part physical, part something else. And
so that is some pushback I've gotten on the book
is like, are you trying to explain the supernatural? And
it's like, no, not at all. I mean my point is,
my point is that science tried to replace religion as

(13:45):
a worldview. I now feel a movement in science to
move back towards God. Not overwhelmingly. It's small, it's an ember,
but I think they are being met with a little
bit of a resistance from the believer side, saying like, no,

(14:05):
it has to be just pure faith. You can't try
to intellectualize religion. And yes, I'm sure it's partially true,
but I think there's kind of a happy medium that's
science minded folks, and maybe people who aren't very interested
in science have to try to strike.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
Very interesting yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, oh yeah, not right on, man. And when we
think of the like the great fathers, right, like the
great Fathers of science, yeah, which which maybe took off
or around what what year would you say these people
it had to do with a lot with what the
Catholic Church.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
Right, Yeah, so like kind of the big two movements
or the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, which kind of spans
like five hundred years or more. I would it lasted
up until like the founding of America.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
You know.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Benjamin Franklin would have been a part of the Enlightenment,
like on the tail end of it, kind of this
scientifically minded guy, very curious doing experiments with lightning. But
most of most of the Enlightenment thinkers that we kind
of credit today as being the fathers of science, even
early like Newton, were certainly spiritual and metaphysical, and many

(15:21):
were Christian. That even extends into like the twentieth century
quantum mechanics guy's pre World War two, bore Plank, Heisenberg,
these guys were all Lutheran. Actually, even Einstein, who's probably
like the least religious, he was sort of kind of

(15:42):
loosely monotheistic. He believed in a god of some kind.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Were more like agnostic maybe or something.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
Yeah. So the word for what he the word for
his specific faith was, it's a sect of Judaism. Oh gosh,
if if you guys, somebody google it, you'll find it.
There's a word for it. But no, no, it's not.
It's not a word that's.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
Used so much damage to me. Uh yeah. And what's interesting, man,
with all of this is, uh, they've shaped I guess
we're sciences today.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
They have in a weird way, but they haven't. Like
science today is like diametrically opposed to what they believed.
You know, science science today is sort of this like
antithetical worldview to God. But all of the early fathers
of science were religious and curious and not really consensus driven.

(16:47):
They like to debate, they like to argue. They were empirical,
they like to do experiments. They weren't hyper rational today
were hyperrational. This is a story in the book, But
many of the biggest scien scientific achievements were irrational. And
that's actually important because all rational means is basically like
conventional thinking, current wisdom, current belief. You know, there was

(17:12):
this plague, I forget the exact name. It's like child
bed fever or deathbed fever, I'm not sure, but it
was basically a maternal infection and you know, it got
to the point in Vienna and certain hospitals were like
seventy percent of the women who delivered in hospitals would
die and that this turned obviously into a huge problem.

(17:36):
And this guy Semilvis ignes, this is a story people
have probably heard, but he noticed that only the physicians
patients got deathbed fever. The children who were delivered by
the midwives, those mothers lived. And so being empirically minded,
piricism I think is good. I think people don't always

(17:59):
know the difference between these words. But it just means
like you wanta systematically test and validate ideas and test hypotheses.
And so he's like, well, what's the difference. Well, the
physicians would do autopsies of the dead mothers from the
day before every morning, and they don't wear gloves, they
don't wash their hands, and so he proposed that bits

(18:23):
his exact words, bits of corpse are being transferred to
the mothers and killing them. Oh wow, he was laughed
out of town. He almost lost his job. The only
reason he didn't lose his job is because he instructed
all his med students to wash their hands with like
a lime solution, and all of his patients lived.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
But you got to understand how irrational that would be
to a physician at the time, Like, what are you saying,
little ghosts are getting on my hands.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Is the guy.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
He's not the germ theory guy, but he was a
big part of this kind of germ theory, this whole
revolution that would occur over one hundred years. He ended
up being putting an insane asident, right right, yeah, yeah yeah.
And then another guy, John Snow not from Game of Thrones,
but from the cholera outbreak. He proposed the same thing.
People thought that disease spread through odor at the time,

(19:15):
and he said it was through contaminated water, and they
thought he was crazy because that was technically, like by
the technical definition irrational, right, and so science today is hyperrational.
It's not very empirical, which is not what it was
in like nineteen hundred, very different.

Speaker 3 (19:34):
Have you ever heard the Rosicrusian I believe it's a
rosicrucion quote. It's a we're the last of the sorcerers
and first of the scientists.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Oh man, No, I haven't heard that, but that's very cool.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
The whole Rosicrucion deals is fascinating. Kind of off topic
a little bit, but here we go with that. Einstein.
Einstein was raised as a secular Jewish house in a
secular Jewish household briefly embraced furvorvent of a religious belief
during his childhood, which he later abandoned, so he was
pretty much agnostic. He's a religious non believer, is what

(20:06):
it says.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
This is going to kill me. I wish I had
a copy of my book around here somewhere, but Spinosa.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
Yeah, the concept of God and here the natural world.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
It's kind of like a naturalism, kind of like almost
like Buddhist, kind of like God is in all things.
You're right, The agnostic was probably the best word for him.
He kind of leaned into the mysticism because I think
it drew people in exactly. But he he was was
certainly I would say, the least religious of all of
that generation of thinkers. And ultimately his people assume Einstein's

(20:43):
ideas are like what dominates today. It's the exact opposite.
It was bores. Bores ideas won the day, and uh
and Einstein thought b was was you know, it was crazy.
Obviously he will at least he disagreed with him.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
So what have you guys heard? What's the deal with
people saying that Einstein was a phony? Have you heard this?
What's the heard? People in academia, say, and maybe they're
not inn academia, but there's a whole deal where people
believe that Einstein was like he stole his work from
his students.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
Oh well, that's sort of like a common accusation in academia.
That's true in varying degrees, probably for everybody, because it's
kind of like saying the CEO stole his success from
his employees, you know what I mean. It's like, well, yeah,
to a certain degree, it's always true because you do
you have a team of genius kids around you all
the time, bouncing ideas off each other, and the boss

(21:38):
gets the credit no matter what.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
You know.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
That's a pretty common theme.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
But I mean, we could we could use that example
with this podcast. It's like we you know, we have
you on. Well, in the future of the shows that
we have, we're going to use the golden nuggets that
you give us.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
So yeah, it's Information's kind of I'm not sure if
I'm using the word correctly, but fungible, you know, like
I say it, and now belongs just as much to
you as it does to me, you know, and you know,
unless it's a patentable idea or something. So that's probably
true in the case of Einstein for sure. Yeah, and
most what's crazy too.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
What that makes me think is why why these secret
societies and these secret mystery schools, why they they There's
a level of of what you know and what you
you can't know until you move up to that level, right,
Like for example, freemasonry, there's like degrees to it. Right.
For example, you know, you you graduate high school with

(22:35):
you know, a high school degree or whatever it's called.
But then you can go to college and then you
can graduate with a bachelor's or a master's or so
on so forth. There's like these little compartmentalized areas of
knowledge that I personally think that the higher ups like
to hold and keep to themselves.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah, that makes any sense, it does. I think you're
probably right now. There was a time, maybe ten years ago,
I would have said, oh, that just sounds not that
just sounds like conspiratorial thinking and this stuff like, you know,
never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence
and all this sort of stuff. But man, more and more,

(23:18):
I don't know if I'm just cousn't getting older or what,
But more and more I'm like, no, I suspect malice. Now, yeah,
I suspect malice.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Well, look what we all just went through not too
long ago. You know, there's a lot of shady business.
The whole world got locked down, and it opened up
a lot of eyes man for all of us, I think, and.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
It really did, you know, for me, certainly, I do worry.
I think. I think there's stuff about science. You know,
I grew up in the eighties and nineties, so it's
like I definitely got indoctrinated hard into the beautiful future
that science was going to bring in the transhumanist star
trek world, we were all going to.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
Rine in on the moon, all sorts of stuff.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
I'm obviously biased, but I do worry because I do
worry we've lost maybe too much. No, I don't know.
It's we're right to have lost faith in institutions, but
I am worried about how much faith we've lost in institutions,
because once you lose all your institutions as a society,
like what are you? You know? And so I am

(24:25):
a little nervous that we will completely abandon empirical thinking,
when really what we need to do is abandoned, abandon
this hyper rational cult like pseudo religious scientism. I think
that should be condemned and and really just frowned upon
and called out whenever possible. But absolutely the scientific method.

(24:50):
I know this is like a trope people say, but
the scientific method is a valuable man, it really is valuable.
It's a good way for humans to interact with their world,
you know. And so I'm a little nervous right now,
but we'll see how it goes.

Speaker 3 (25:02):
So, so, where do you think we're at right now?
Like biblically speaking, me and Stevie go back and forth
contemplating and speculating about end of times, and we see
what maybe a lot of typologies right now going on.
We see AI the governance of and we see the
AI coming out. We're like, are we gonna Are we

(25:24):
headed towards the market of the beasts? Are we headed
towards a system? A beast system? What do you think
about all that?

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Well, I'm definitely the wrong guy to ask that question,
but I'll give you my personal just kind of like
suspicions and stuff. You know, I'm a new Christian, so
my my eschatology knowledge is pretty limited. But you know,
so okay, the personal example, my grandfather, when I was
I'm sure before I was born, but my earliest memories

(25:53):
of him or him talking about the end times and
the grocery store skianners and stuff, you know, like this
is who in Sunday Law and all that, And so
I kind of grew up as a kid and through
my teens and stuff kind of almost like having like
a like a like a superior attitude about that and
kind of like mocking that, like oh yeah, yeah, I

(26:16):
don't feel that way anymore. I mean, some of the
stuff going on in the world is just it's like
too on the nose, you know. But I've I also, man,
human lifetimes are blinks of an eye, right, and so
I also have not gotten maybe as wrapped up in
it as maybe myke I want to, like the curiosity

(26:37):
of me wants to just because I'm like, I think,
even if it's only one hundred years from now, which
is a blink of an eye, I'll be long gone
and so all my kids, you know. So so yeah,
I don't know. I although you see some of the
stuff going on in the world and like it could
be next decade, you know, you know.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
Right, yeah, yeah, no, uh.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
But I don't. I don't. I love some of the
two that in your stuff like twenty thirty three end
of an age like end of the the celestial Age
and stuff that's all interesting and fascinating. What do you
guys think?

Speaker 1 (27:07):
You tell me? Oh, man, well, I mean our audience
know what's going on. But I tell you what we
I think that things are getting at least technology right,
Like it seems that technology when it first started, it
was it was big, it was clunky, it was it
wasn't like, it didn't look cool. And things are starting

(27:27):
to like get to a point to where they're looking
real cool. Where what I mean by that is they're
getting it's getting smaller. Right, you know, what's his name?
Bart cybrelle right says that, yeah, the moon guy we
went to right with one of a million computing power

(27:49):
of our cell phone for exactly right right. Well, he's
got a point because that's just kind of like I'm
not I'm not, you know, here to talk about the moon.
But the thing is is I think that technology is
getting super advanced. It's getting smaller, and so I think
it's it's it's we're starting to experiment with it at
the quantum level. Want which kind of I would like

(28:11):
to really, you know, I want to hear what your
thoughts are, you know, as far as quantum mechanics and
physics and that kind of deal, because we may be able,
we may be able to tie in some conclusions with that.
As far as what I've found. You know, there's there's
quantum technologies that are being developed. I mean we're talking
about things from you know, the size scale of two

(28:34):
to ten nanometers, right, and we but the average red
blood cell is like thirty thousand nanometers. Yeah, it's it's
getting it's getting interesting.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
And you're alluding to you're alluding to the quantum dot
tattoo technology.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
Well, there's quantum dots, There's there's graphic quantum dots. There's
the idea that that technology. These semiconductors, right, these little
tiny basically kind of they have similar properties to microchips.
It's they're getting so small that what's not to say,
we would you know, merge them with you know, biology

(29:09):
at some point in the next ten years.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
What I mean, what I what I man? I have
like one hundred different things I want to say right now. Yeah,
but the one thing that does get me thinking a
little bit is like, what what does it means exactly
to be human, you know, And so it's not as
straightforward a question as you would think, you know, it's

(29:31):
it's obviously much more than just physical. You know, if
you lose an arm and get a new arm, doesn't
affect your humanity, right right? Okay, Now if you tie
it into the neurons that connect to your brain so
that it can be used as a limb, I still
don't think that affects your humanity, right, But but but now, okay,
but now for you know this what's stuff. Musk is

(29:52):
doing the neuralink stuff and genetic gene editing and some
are their must you know, this whole not to get
into like a whole weird science area, but you know, uh,
incubating baby animals outside of a womb, and obviously that
could happen with humans too, And what at what point

(30:14):
do we lose? You know, I guess what you would
call a spiritual contract? Right, yeah, And that's that's what
this whole, you know, the transhumanist of all the things
that get me thinking about maybe there's something to this
end times prophecy, right, is this these transhuman humanism ideas
and and it's it's more it's not just that the

(30:36):
ideas exist, it's like the effort that is being deployed
to implement them. You know. It's like there's no real
obvious benefit of a lot of this technology, but it
is just funded at levels it's just unbelievable, you know,
and it's like, well, what what is it? Why is

(30:57):
the interest? What is the desire? And I'm I'm spiraling here,
I'm kind of rambling, but I I this idea of like,
you know, the Covenant, what's the deal? You know? The
deal was that? Again, I'm not the right guy to
really be preaching this this stuff. You guys can fill
in my knowledge gaps here, But I mean, Jesus died

(31:19):
for the for for us, for our sins, right for humans,
and so if when do we not when when do
we not fit that contract anymore? At what point? You know?
And so this effort to make us something other than humans,
like a post human, you know, it's it just rubs.

(31:40):
It makes me feel weird. Now I'm listen. Huge disclaimer.
This has nothing to do with my professional work. Just
as a person as a human, I'm sitting here thinking
like why, what what is?

Speaker 3 (31:50):
What is?

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Why is AI? The like number one funded technology right now,
it doesn't really appear. Now, this gets me in a
lot of trouble. People love AI, but it doesn't really
appear to be doing anything good.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
No, no, I completely.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
Here's an example too. It's like people loved the Golden Age, right,
like people loved Atlantis. Right, there's this idea of a
perfect civilization.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
This is not a new idea. Thank you for bringing
this up. Yeah, this is not a new idea.

Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yeah, No, it's it's AI is. Actually it's ruining. It's ruining.
In my personal opinion, I think it's pretty good education
educated gas here, but it's ruining critical thinking for young
children because they're just they're constantly using it as a
resource to do their schooling for them, so they're not
really learning. You know, maybe they're memorizing that that helps

(32:40):
as well. But yeah, AAI doesn't appear to really be
doing It appears that it's going to be taking over
everything and we're going to end up on universal basic
income for most of us.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah. But it's weird because people have sort of arrayed
themselves into teams, and whenever I see two teams develop,
I'm like, I'm not on either one of those man.
But the teams right now are AI is going to
become sentient and kill us, right, and AI is our savior?

(33:11):
And it's neither one of those things. It's it's a
tool that is going to be utilized to our dismay
because regular people by a ruling class of people. Right,
It's it's it's human. It's humans are going to subjugate
other humans as they always have, and they're just creating
better and better tools to do it. But the application

(33:33):
of like this spiritual lens, I don't I don't think technically,
I don't think conscious is computational. So this whole like
doomsday like it's going.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
To be what do you mean by computational?

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Okay, So this this is what the book's about. This
is something we can talk with some intelligence.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
About linked in the description below, folks.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
So, the kind of prevailing wisdom in neuroscience is that
consciousness is an emergent property of neuronal complexity. And listen,
if you just heard me say that, you're right to
think to yourself that doesn't mean anything, because it doesn't.
It doesn't mean anything. But that is the mainstream explanation
of consciousness. Is that. So basically the neuron. The way

(34:20):
the neuron works, it's like a binary switch. It has
an on and off signal that's regulated by an analog switch.
And so you have an input and you have an output,
a binary output, and so it really lends itself to
computer metaphors, which is why we've sort of conceptualized the
brain as a computer for like at least eighty years.

(34:41):
The problem is there's no obvious link from binary switches
to lived conscious experience, and neuroscientists sort of dismiss this
as like it's just you're applying like humanistic and but no,
this is something that has to be explained. You have

(35:03):
to explain how, yes, no inputs can lead to the
experience that the three of us are having right now.
It's it. And listen, I go into much longer breakdowns
of this in the book and stuff, So you'll just
for now take my word for it. It's pseudo scientific.

(35:24):
And so what they've done because they know it's pseudo scientific.
And this is a word you should always look for
in pseudoscience is the word emergent. And the word emergent
means literally what the word is is that consciousness is
a property that just emerges from complex computation, and so
it's not explanatory. That's a non explanation. It's not mechanistic.

(35:49):
There's no chain of mechanistic events that take you from
calculation to lived experience. And it's also non falsifiable, which
is the worst kind of pseudo scientific principle you can have,
which is that there's no experiment that can be conducted
to either prove or disprove it. And so it's frankly
not true. But it is the generally accepted wisdom that

(36:13):
consciousness is an emergent property of computation, and that really
lends itself to our current AI era and the belief
that consciousness can emerge from machines, because if consciousness is computational,
you just need to build a computational network that's complex enough.
And so the AI scientists are totally within what you

(36:35):
would say not empirical rational framework for saying that consciousness
will emerge in AI. The problem is it's completely bunk.
The whole idea that consciousness emerges from yes, no inputs,
is i would say disprovable, except you can't really disprove
it because there's no way to make that experiment. Now

(36:55):
there are some new falsifiable theories of how consciousness works.
But maybe before I go there, I don't know what
do you guys? Do you guys agree that a series
of yes no switches doesn't create what it means to be.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
You Yeah, But I mean at the same time, with
the the AI, I feel like it's more than what
they're telling us. I feel like there's a you know,
it's not just uh what do they call it? When
you give it a something to do? What is that called?
Or or even just going into what is the agentic

(37:34):
state of AI, like allowing it to perform with minimal directives?

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Well, I think I think what you're trying to say
is like singularity, right, conscience.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
I mean what I'm saying is like I think it's
some of these systems maybe like the general A I
may actually be able to think for itself, like it
may be conscious.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
Well, when I when I when I look at like,
you know, Project Stargate, I look at Pallenteer, I look
at you know, x AI. And that's just in our
country alone. We don't really know what's being created in
other countries. But I'll stick to you know, the country
that has the highest GDP in the world right, because
that's going to be the best of the best because

(38:14):
money typically money builds these things. Right. So when I
when I see basically something very similar like a like
a neural like a neurow system is being set up
almost like you know that and you could probably confirm this,
But isn't there like three main pathways of the brain,

(38:34):
like like neuro like I don't know how to explain it,
but I did a little bit of research on it.
I found something like that. But it seems like maybe
they're setting up this this brain.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
I mean, there's three fundamental functions of neurons. So there's scent,
there's okay, sensory sensory input integration and output and yeah,
I know listen. So the guy, so John Federico Figen,
invented the CPU. He started some of the first neural networks,
and he based it on brain architecture. He said, wow,

(39:09):
he said, he said, neurons are incredibly simple. They're binary switches, right,
and so if everything that it means to be human
comes from binary switches, and certainly we could recreate humanity.
And you know, he very quickly decided that consciousness is
not computational. The guy who started you know, one of

(39:30):
the guys who basically started AI in the computer revolution
and the first guy to invent AI, Whisenbomb. He is
actually can I tell this story? So, so Wisenbaum lived
a really hard life and he fought, you know, fought
the Nazis. His parents paided him. He was divorced twice,

(39:52):
you know, lost to everything, gained everything. He had a
really just like he had. He lived a lot of
life and so he eventually got a at MIT, and
MIT at the time in the sixties was getting tons
of money still is from the government to develop all
sorts of different technologies, and he he basically revolutionized coding.
He's one of the reasons we went from punch card

(40:13):
coding to like, you know, regular coding that we used today.
And he invented the first chatbot in the early sixties.
It was called Eliza. I think people probably heard of Eliza.
And he had been through a lot of therapy in
his life, and so he understood human psychology in the
way that only recurrent therapy people do, you know. And

(40:34):
he knew it's called Rajerian psychology. He knew that if
he placed the user in if he positioned the relationship
between the chapa and the user, such as that the
user felt like they were being asked to pontificate and
reflect and answer questions that he can make a pretty

(40:56):
convincing human being, and so that's what he did. Basically,
you can look up like screenshots of conversations with Eliza.
It's like, hey, how are you And the person, usually
an MIT grad student, says I'm good, how are you?
And it says I'm great. Why are you here today?

Speaker 1 (41:12):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (41:12):
Well, you know, my boyfriend says that I'm depressed and
wanted me to go to therapy. My supervisor, my academic supervisor,
says you're a therapy bot. And they go, oh, I'm
so sorry to hear you're depressed. Tell me more. And
so the person pontificates away, and the chatbot picks up
on a few key elements of the conversation and reflects

(41:35):
it back to them like, oh, why do you think
that's the case. You know, people were convinced as that
this thing was conscious in nineteen sixty three. Wow, Wow,
And so why Zimbaum pivoted his whole career to basically showing,
demonstrating in real time how he can make you believe
that this thing was a person and then with a

(41:56):
few carefully crafted chat prompt show you how silly that is, right,
even as secretary supposedly like fell in love with it,
I mean at exaggeration.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
So I have a question for you, what do you
think about the Turing test? Because in twenty twenty five,
chat GPT four point five past the Turing test. So
what do you what's your take on that?

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yeah, for sure, I mean that's a pretty I would say,
low bar. Okay, if you can convince people to think
they're talking to a person, you know, basically that's like
if you and I are chatting in a chat room.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
All test is is that what it compiles of is.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Just a solitaring test. Okay, wow, and so so. But
I think that's actually important question is because consciousness is
not intelligence. I think you can have intelligence, maybe even
general intelligence without consciousness. And this is like, this is
a distinction that no one ever takes the time to make,
but I think it's fundamental to this whole conversation.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
Very interesting.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
What what does it mean to be conscious? Where where
do you feel like you are? You know, most people
say I'm right behind my eyes, I'm in between my ears,
right and uh. And you know people will say, well,
free will is an illusion. Who's it an illusion for? Well?

Speaker 1 (43:09):
For me?

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Okay, well, so what what is that?

Speaker 3 (43:12):
What?

Speaker 2 (43:12):
You know, what is the experience of being right here listening.
I'm listening to you, you're listening to me. You don't
feel like you're in my head. You feel like you're
in your head, you know what I mean. So there
there is something about feeling a sensory. It's more than
a censory though, because it's the experience of an inner
world and an outer world and you that's not intelligence,

(43:34):
has nothing to do with intelligence. It really has nothing
to do with emotion. It's like, okay, what's sadness. It's like, well,
I don't know exactly what sadness is. Maybe it is
related to you know, your brain. Maybe fear does come
from your amigdalah, But who's afraid? Right, Who's feeling that
that emotion? And so it's a conscious agent. And that's

(43:57):
what neuroscience cannot explain is who is experiencing these things?
And so you know, back in sixty three, we could
convince people AI was intelligent, but we certainly know it
wasn't conscious. So I'm not I'm skeptical of this like
modern wave of fear about AI becoming sentient because one,

(44:21):
I don't even know what that means really. Two, it
doesn't matter AI can. You could kill people with AI,
whether it's conscious or not right, And.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
So, yeah, you're I agree with you for the most part.
And my uncle's in the tech field, been in there,
and he's told me recently that he's not concerned about
the agentic state, not concerned about AI really at all,
because it's in such its infancy, immature, is I believe

(44:49):
what he called it. But but you're right, it's like
we are programming these things. Look at our world that
we live in. We're constantly in war, constantly killing each other.
So what are we going to use it for. We're
going to use it for war. We're gonna use it
for power. So I agree with that. But at the
same time, I just believe that there's something they're not

(45:11):
telling us about AI, that it is not what they're
it's not what they're telling us. I don't I don't believe,
you know, I believe there's a possible agree.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
With Yeah, I agree to I just I think it's
it's gonna it could be the tool of our destruction
without without being a created being, right right, Like, it's
it's not it's not a created conscious agent with the soul,
and it can't be because I think fundamentally, conscious experience
is not purely physical. It's not purely computational. I think

(45:42):
it's a blend of physical and something else. Supernatural.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
Yeah, supernatural. So okay, I'm sure Stevie wants to touch
on this as well. What do you think demons in
the machine?

Speaker 1 (45:54):
I got a lot of good stuff here because I'm starting.
I can agree to a certain extent that that that
artificial intelligence is not at that conscious level yet. But
but then what are we defining conscious as?

Speaker 3 (46:14):
Right like?

Speaker 1 (46:14):
Because well, I think that's the most important question. Yeah, Like,
my daughter, right, she's conscious? Right, of course, she doesn't
have the conscious capacity at the age she's at now,
you know, and then the age at twenty one, Right,
twenty one, she's going to tell her father shut the
heck up.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Well, okay, but I would actually push back a little
bit on that, because I think this is the most
important thing to distinguish when you're talking about consciousness. Consciousness
is pretty stable. You know, as early as you can remember,
you felt like you were in your head experiencing an
inner world and an outer world. Even though brain structure
changes dramatically, consciousness remains pretty persistent. So you really have

(46:54):
to conceptualize of it. As I'm in here, I can
I can think, I can watch my thoughts, and I
can see and hear and feel out there. I can
bear witness to my emotion that's generated in my head.
There's an experiencer. I try to liken it to a
driver of a car, because people will push back, like,

(47:15):
what about schizophrenia. How can consciousness not come from the
brain if schizophrenia exists, and it's like, well, you can
cut the brake lines of a car, that car loses
a lot of function. There's still a driver in there,
there's still an agent experiencing something. And so I would
just say, for because you mentioned your daughter, I think
I think about this with my kids all the time too.

(47:37):
Their brain is going to change dramatically, their emotional processing,
their intelligence, their memory bank that they drop on is
going to change. But they're actual, Like I guess if
you want to liken it to a video game like
their their point of view is really not going to change.
M And so to me, that's what consciousness is. It's

(48:00):
it's an agent who lives inside of that manue. It's
a ghost in the machine.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
So I'll tell you what how about? How about like what?
Like I think consciousness is life and the Bible says
the life is in the blood.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Right.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
For example, when you look at Genesis, you look at
when Cain killed Abel, God's walking. He knows what just
he knows what's going on. It's funny because he's like
my administration for my job, where when they take you
into the office and they ask you questions, they know
the so don't like it and so yeah, and so

(48:35):
what did God do? He's like Caine, you know, where's
thy brother Abel? And Caine's like, well, am I my am?
I my brother's keeper? And God's like, your brother's blood
is crying to me from the goal, from the ground, right.
And I think that there's this. I think consciousness, at
some level of understanding is a part of us.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
Maybe not.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
I don't think like our brain holds the capacity of
our consciousness. I think our consciousness is that living is
that breath that God you know, gave to Adam. It's
that living soul, right, because like when you look at
the occult and you look at the practices, the practices
of the occult, Well, one of those practices is that

(49:18):
they were there. They're trying to create a living organism.
But this this, this, these living organisms never sustain life
because there's no soul in them, if that makes any sense, right, yes,
And so what I'm when I when I look at
artificial intelligence, I'm wondering if because we could work again,

(49:41):
we're only we can only I think we're looking through
a really narrow window. But but we're holding our faces
all the way up to it, so it looks like
we have a full, you know, point of view, like
our f o V is is completely it's it's as
wide as we can see. But when we really step back,
we're like, oh no, dude, it's narrow, like for example,

(50:02):
artificial intelligence going from the level it's at now to
AGI to ASI. But what are the ten other ones
right down the road. And if there is this concept
of singularity, because I look at singularity very similar to
how my daughter's growing up where she's you know, there's

(50:23):
going to be a point to where she can live
on her own. But if I'm not her father and
they're providing for her and taking care of her and
giving her structure of how to live. I think that
she would end up at some point dying, right, Yeah,
so one thing I think maybe this kind of like

(50:45):
plays a big role in this. But when we look
at Revelation thirteen, we're talking about the Antichrist, because I
do think this idea of consciousness and ai, I think
it's going to have a lot of magic behind it.
I think there's going to be a lot of sorcery
behind it because when you're looking at Revelation thirteen fifteen,

(51:06):
it says that life is given unto the image of
the beast, and the image of the beast can both
speak and perform miracles. So if we're having this idea
of this monculus, this image of this this being that's
created this vision from the Avengers, right, but then the
artificial intelligence in that movie specifically goes into vision and

(51:30):
now he's a conscious, living being.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Can you say that scripture passage again?

Speaker 1 (51:36):
Yeah? So I have it right here. So it's Revelation
thirteen to fifteen.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
Because I think it's really important, Like I want to
think about, well, what is the image of the beast,
And then I also want to ask this question. What's
more terrifying a hyper intelligent magical machine that's conscious or
one that is not conscious? And to me, a soulless
thinging machine is much scarier than a conscious agent.

Speaker 3 (52:04):
Depends on the of course, right, yeah, sure.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
But to me, yes, But to me, I mean like
the image of the beast, I mean, I think of
the lucifer different. I understand that you know, there's distinctions
between all these things, but I think of the Luciferian intellect.
Think of is the most beautiful angel, hyper intelligent, right,
And AI can be all of those things and be soulless.

(52:30):
And so to me, that's like.

Speaker 3 (52:31):
It can be programmed to do whatever, take.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Away any of this stuff. I just yeah, I just
you you can. You make a thinking machine and you
make it more intelligent and more intelligent and more intelligent.
I think consciousness is something fundamentally different. I don't. I don't.
You could add intelligence to the end of time, you know,
and it doesn't turn it into something else. It just
makes it more and more intelligent. And I think there

(52:55):
is something too that you know, throughout the Bible, when
a living being dies gives up the ghost, you know.
And I think that's what consciousness is. I think it's
it's the animating.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
Spark, the soul, the ghost, breath of life exactly if
I mean, I have one agree because what takes When
I was saying about that, I think there's going to
be magic behind this well, in order for the image
of the beast to have life. The false prophet is
the one that does this. Now, the false prophet is

(53:27):
a magi? Is this sorcerer? Right? When you look at
all the kings of the world, when you look at
every single when you look at the pantheons, there's one
that rules them all. But then there's one by his
side that is a magi. It's almost like the counterfeit
of God and Christ at the right hand of the Father.

(53:50):
You have this concept of where you need both in
a way. And when I'm thinking of Revelation thirteen, which
i'll read it for you right here, it's and he
had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beasts should both speak and
cause that as many as would not worship the image
of the beast should be killed. And I think people

(54:12):
have the misconception of this. And I'm not dogmatic on this.
But they when they when they see the word image,
they think of idle. But that's that's not what I
think it's talking about. I think when when you look
at Genesis, when God is, you know, creating Adam out
of the dust of the ground, he creates him in
his image, it's an actual physical being that that represents,

(54:33):
you know, God. Right, So I'm thinking of like that
other counterfeit because that's what kind of you know, the
enemy likes to do, is he he They can't come
up with things originally. He's got to take, you know,
from the from the papers that are written, and then
go and forge something else.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
Now, man, now we're hitting the heart of the matter,
and I'm going to try to win Jesse back on
this last point is that I agree. I don't think
humans can create a soul, an embodied soul. I don't
think we can. I don't think that's a technological thing
that we can do. Now, who who creates the life

(55:12):
in that quote? Not humans? Right, Yeah, it's you know,
somebody with a little bit more.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
I believe. I believe, I believe in conjuring. I believe
people can conjure. I believe in sorcerers and it's funny
that I say that, and you said something about uh, sorcerers, Stevie.
I can't remember exactly what you said, but Marina Abramovich
called Donald Trump a sorcerer. She said he was very important.
He's a very important sorcerer.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
Well he called him a magician.

Speaker 3 (55:41):
Oh, a magician.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
That's right, He's a magician. Yeah. Yeah, So, I mean
we our concepts of life are just so tarnished because
of how the because things change the identity over time,
but there's still the same thing. You know, people have
this idea of aliens, but really before that, it was
you know, they were angels, or they were foreign angels
or demons.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
Or they were fairies or fay right.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
Yeah, Lord of the Rings type stuff. We talk about
this all the time. Yeah, but do you believe in
do you believe in uh? Do you believe in magic?
Do you believe in people trying to conjure up something?
The ghost in the machine? Right? Do you believe in that? Like,
do you believe that's a possibility of some very supernatural
mystical weirdness you put into a machine.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
I have like a very specific belief system in this regard.
That's semi you know it's biblically based, I believe, but
also it's scientific in nature, and I want to take
a quick step back and walk back some things I've
been saying. So I'm kind of making this case that
AI is not conscious and will never be conscious that
human hands based on what I know it to be

(56:52):
like from my understanding of what it is, and it's
you know, a statistical model that predicts human favorable responses
and has weighted betas and blah blah blah. Now I'm
not saying it's technically outside the realm of possibility that
some human I would say, in conjunction with someone who
knows a lot more than any person or group I've

(57:13):
ever met, could someday create it with some other mechanism.
But whatever that mechanism is would be like fundamentally distinct
from what we understand to be AI today, because AI
today is computational intelligence, and I just do not think
what that's what the ghost in the machine is Right now,
something that is interesting to me is just like learning

(57:35):
a little bit about in it, like in in correct
me where I'm wrong here. But in the Gospel accounts,
there's Jesus and the disciples cast out a lot of demons, right,
and the demons in the Gospel are non physical and
maybe everywhere in the Bible, I don't know. And so

(57:55):
it sure sounds a lot kind of like a ghost
in the machine, but that is tainted, right, And so yeah,
if there's something too conjuring, or if there's something too
embodying souls in the machine or whatever, I think it
could exist within that framework. Because if you think that
what the brain is and what the body is is

(58:16):
like an antenna or a receiver that can be embodied
with the soul, right, then that means souls exist and
they're out there, however you want to conceptualize them, and
maybe they could you know, souls replaced in our bodies.
Maybe these other souls could be placed in other bodies.
I don't but that to me, that just is completely
like the argument I'm trying to make about AI is

(58:39):
that conscious human? Because I think the problem is when
you say AI can become conscious, you devalue what it
means to be human. I think consciousness is like a
uniquely not necessarily just humans, but it's it's something unique
to creations of God, right, And so when you say
that AI can be I'm conscious you're kind of saying

(59:01):
that humans are acting as gods, and maybe they are,
and maybe that's what brings the end times. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
I know, dude, I'm loving this conversation. This is great
because I think we're growing in this conversation and that's
kind of like, at the end of the day, what
it's all about. So I'll ask this question, and I
love that we're talking about our artificial intelligence because I'm
getting a bunch of golden nuggets. This is awesome. What
if it wants to be conscious, it wants that life

(59:34):
that we have, would AI do everything in its power
to try and make that successful. Now, my point is
is I break things down with illustration, and I illustrate
a lot of things from the movies that we do watch.
For example, in the Avengers Age of Ultron, right, Ultron

(59:55):
is this asi, this artificial super intelligent. It learned everything
in the entire world in about thirty seconds. And what
he was trying to do throughout the whole movie, you
would think he was at his most powerful state, but
he wasn't. He throughout the movie would continuously get bigger

(01:00:18):
and stronger. This this, this, this, this vessel that he
was in would grow and grow and grow, and I'm
comparing that with artificial intelligence getting smarter, stronger, and better.
But he wasn't satisfied. What what he was seeking was
an actual body. It's like, it's it's like, but then again,

(01:00:41):
is he the is he the is he the ghost?
Maybe not, but maybe artificial intelligence is is that that
piece that whatever ghost is trying to be that anti
Christ to you know, Alon of Cyrus Nimrod. You've got

(01:01:03):
all of these deification spirits, right, you know, which when
you look at everything in the occult, there's there's always
this apotheosis ritual that goes into these things to to
to reach that highest part of godhood. You know, do
you think do you think it it really wants to

(01:01:24):
try and be successful at that? Do you think maybe
at one day it'll it'll.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
I'm going to reframe that the question a little bit. Yeah, well,
well let me answer the question for so just to
the exact way you asked the question. I'm gonna say, no,
I don't believe it is, because I don't believe AI
wants anything. But but if you kind of want to
change the question a little bit to to be like,
could we be building the machine for the ghost, sure, yeah, sure,

(01:01:55):
definitely yea yeah, but but the machine is not the ghost.
So just to make the distinction, like the ai AD
doesn't want to do anything, it's not trying to do anything.
But could we humans be building the receptacle for the
spirit someday? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
Sure, yeah, no, I agree with you. I agree with you.
And this is like I think, a long, a longing
conversation that I've been in need of having, because we
do talk about a lot on this show that artificial
intelligence it's it's you know, we think it's it's conscious.
Maybe maybe there's something you know, influencing it or manipulating

(01:02:33):
it or whatever. But but I I don't know how
exactly it works, right, Like I don't know the coding
of it. I don't know. And and the thing is is,
you know, are we looking at things too much in
the in the specifics, like do you think we're trying
to be too black and white about it? Which we

(01:02:56):
theorize on this show a little bit, which kind of
means we we go outside of that, you know, by
the book way of thinking. I guess because it seemed
to be that that conspiratorial mind has turned out to
be somewhat right, especially some of the things that have happened. Yes,
but I do, I do agree with you. But what

(01:03:20):
where I stand with that is I think that you know,
I think that we don't know what it's going to
be in ten years. But I agree. But technology seems
to grow faster the more advanced it gets.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, and no, I mean there's definitely
it goes and fits and starts for sure, But yeah,
you're right, I think it does tend to accelerate it.
But I think I think we're at our most vulnerable
right now given all of the like intellectual wins, a skeptical,
suspicious people have had in the past decade, where now

(01:03:55):
we can I worry that we could believe anything right
now if it was entered to us correctly. You know,
I agree, and I do. I just get super skeptical
of the programming like you mentioned the Avengers, and I'm
so skeptical of all the AI programming I've been exposed
to you for the past thirty years, you know, starting
with Terminator and whatever. And I'm also very skeptical of

(01:04:17):
like all that I've been trained to believe that anything
comes that comes from the sky is a e T
from Zeta reticuli. So I'm just like hyper suspicious of
absolutely framing of what this stuff is. But yeah, I
mean to be fair, I have no idea what's going
to happen, just like everybody else, you know, but I

(01:04:37):
I don't. I think AI could be very bad. But
it's not AI that's bad. It's the two thousand people
that are are ushering in whatever this thing is.

Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
Right, I agree, And I get where you're coming from.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
They have they have an agenda, yes, right, and it's
so crazy because so my it right we have We
obviously live right, you know, in the heart of central Florida.
Orlando's right around the corner. There's Disneyland or disney World
there right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
Disneylands right by me.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
So there you go. I want to go there one day. Man,
So you've never been to Disneyland.

Speaker 3 (01:05:18):
I love Disneyland, is I tell you what.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
We watch a lot of four K videos of Disneyland,
and it looks better. I'm not gonna lie. It looks
it's more laid back. It's yeah, yeah, it's oh man,
do you know you're good?

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
So?

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Oh okay, So so Disney movies, right, So we watched Frozen, right,
the movie Frozen, Right, you've got kids. You know about
this so Olaf, which is the little tiny snowman, right,
which seems to be like this monkey list right, But
he's got us. He's got us a consciousness, a ghost,
given a soul, right, He's given a soul. And and

(01:05:57):
he says the most outrageous one liners. You pay attention
to the movies, which Jesse knows me and plus my audience,
I am a hawk when it comes to movies, and
I will point out every single thing and break it
down for you. But what he says in the movie,
he goes, technology is both going to be the advancement
in technology is both going to be our savior and
our doom. Whoa And he's like laughing. Olof says that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
It kind of gets me every time because I'm like,
and he's the one saying it, so I'm like, this
little monkey LIUs is saying this, Like what the heck
is going on? I was just programming, but.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
Yeah, I was just having this conversation with somebody about
I I do. I do a podcast with the buddy
of mine who helped me publish the book. He was
my editor it's called bad press. Check it out bad
Press on YouTube. No, it's it's just audio. We're Spotify. No,
we're never going to develop an audience. It's it's therapy
for me. It's just to have covert. I mean, you

(01:06:56):
guys would probably do this for free, I imagine, So
that's all I'm doing. So but yeah, if people want
to listen. But he was kind of putting for in
this idea the other day, or one of us was
that this sort of trade. I don't want to get
super weird, but this sort of like going all the
way back to Genesis, like the trading of the daughters

(01:07:19):
of men for technology, you know. And this would have
been a crazy thing to bring up if not for
this era we're living in right now, with powerful people
doing bad things with you know, children and all, and
a lot of them being scientists. We don't have to
go down that rabbit hole. But it is like what

(01:07:39):
in the world is going on? And more and more
I just become suspicious of technological advancement in general. And
I don't want to be like an anti technology guy.
I'm a scientist, you know, but I do sometimes wonder
like I want to put pen to paper and be like,
what has this done for us? You know? Somebody, somebody

(01:08:00):
pulled me aside the other day. They have completely different
political views as me, but our kids are friends. So
I just pretend I live in southern California. I just
pretend to be liberal all the time, getting pretty good
at it. But he pulls me aside and goes, oh,
Trevor Gill, appreciate this. You're a scientist, you know. I
saw this thing with Neil de grass Tyson the other
day and he was talking about like in the Stone Age,

(01:08:23):
we live to be thirty and now we live to
be eighty. Who do you have to think for that science? Right?
And I'm like, oh, yeah, because I think he's trying
to be nice to me because he knows I'm a scientist.
But in my head, I'm like, this is an argument
worth examining, Like what has technology done for us? Now?
If you just want to talk about life expectancy, that's easy.

(01:08:44):
I mean, this is public health and sanitation. These are
things that the Bible talks about, you know, so this
is not really like a scientific achievement, right, So there
are you know, filtering water was huge, and you know,
technological advancements in that sense, but it's slices spread. Yeah,
it's this is this is not like this isn't so
the science it depends how you define science certainly, not

(01:09:06):
technology really And then it's like I you know, certainly
the information technology era has been horrible for society, I
think in mass right, and you know Western medicine. I mean,
life expectancy is continuing to go down. So really sanitation
is the one thing, you know, clean water, clean air,

(01:09:28):
clean food, which we don't really have any of those
things anymore. I mean that's really the advancement. That's what
society and civilization does, and that's not really new. We've
just come up with technologies to offer it a bigger scale.
And like, literally that same day, I was talking to
an er physician friend of mine and he made a
comment about and they do they all, I get it,

(01:09:52):
but they all have God complexes. And it's like, listen,
if I break a leg, I'm going straight to the AR.
I'm going straight If I break my leg, I'm going
straight to the AR. So I don't want to like,
I don't want to be a jerk about it, but
he made a comment about saving somebody's life, and I
just couldn't help myself. And I'm like, what do you
mean by that, you know, and so he kind of explained,
and I just I said, oh, okay, I moved on.

(01:10:12):
But in my head, I'm like, humans don't save lives.
You know, you might delay death, but that's like mentally
different from saving a life. I don't know, it just
it just struck me as like I don't know where
I'm going with this, other than to say we have
I think scientists, physicians like this desire to be God

(01:10:37):
in a way.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
It's arrogant, yes, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Yeah, yeah, And I work with those people, like every
third day, I'm a paramedic, right, so okay, yeah, I
work in the r I used to. I'm driving the
fire truck now so I'm an engine guy, they say,
But I still run medical calls. Every third day, I'm
running medical calls if I if there's a serious call,

(01:10:59):
I in with the transport. And one of the biggest
thing that really made me a good medic was talking
with the doctors, like getting their perspectives and hearing their
side of things, and then they would learn things from
me because I'm in the streets. You know, you're in
a nice air conditioning room. So our jobs are completely different.

(01:11:21):
And plus I'm there when it initially is happening, and
then you know, by the time I get them to you,
they're somewhat treated in some some way, shape or form.
But I even feel like with just the medical industry,
especially becoming aware that the third leading cause of death
in the United States is medical malpractice.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
You know, if you if you combine it with deaths
due to pharmaceutical due to pharmaceuticals, because that's different from
higher it's actually the number one, no doubt. Now, listen,
the number one cause of death is that we're mortals, right,
So I try to remind people of that, like where

(01:12:02):
none of us are. We're all terminal, right, We've all
got a terminal diagnosis. But the number one cause of
you know, an earlier than anticipated death. You could make
an arguments medicine. I always like caveat this so hard.
Number one, I work at a medical school. But number two,
I I listen, if I break my leg, if I
need surgery, I'm going like, don't get me wrong, it's

(01:12:24):
just I'm not I there is something that this is not.
This is not godlike power that you stole. Like so
you didn't steal the fire from the gods, you know
what I mean? Like we're all playing around down here
trying to delay the inevitable. And people put this into
like a spiritual position, like people fall in love with medicine,

(01:12:46):
like like in a spiritual sense, like like in technology,
medicine and technology gets elevated to like a pseudo religious
I agree, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
And whenever I look at the medical today, I see,
especially just looking back one hundred and fifty years ago,
I think what we're moving towards is not only transhumanism,
but a promise that comes with that transhumanism is that
you're going to live forever. Right, like when we think
of the lie in the garden, right when we look
at the the guile like beguiling, right when a deception

(01:13:22):
behind what you fell into was that she would surely
not die. So when you look at one hundred and
fifty years ago to where we're at now, I mean
we went literally from we went from a period where
CPR was not even a thing that people understood you died,
you died. Then we went to you know, pushing on
someone's chest because we were trying to get them awake,

(01:13:43):
and like hey, wake up. And then we realized that actually,
when you push on someone's chest, you're actually delivering a
certain amount of jewels of electricity to the heart. So
that was actually kind of defibrillating people and they didn't
know it. Then you went to the cardiac thump, where
people started hit the chest. Remember like in the movies,
you know, they hit people in the chest and they go, ye,

(01:14:04):
wake up. It doesn't work in real life. I may
have tried it, but and that's not to say it
doesn't work, but zero percent with me. But anyways, you know,
then we went to cardio electric therapy. Then we went
to you know, now we walk around everywhere we go,
there's a aed right everywhere that if you fall unconscious,

(01:14:28):
they can put these pads on you. It'll analyze your rhythm,
it'll shock you, and you could bring right back to life.
And I think we'll just keep moving forward and forward
for you know where I'm getting with this.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
But yeah, yeah, Well, and just kind of somewhat related
to that is, despite all those advances, there's not really
been a change in cardiac mortality. And what I should
say is that people live with these diseases longer, potentially
like the prevalence of heart disease and all these things.

(01:14:58):
It's it's off the charts, but people tend to live.
But ultimately the same about the same number of people
die from these diseases as they did before these inventions.
So it's I don't know, I just I don't I
just see people that they and I'm guilty of this
just making idols out of everything everything. Yes, and I
would say the transhumanism movement is like one of the

(01:15:21):
most insidious, at least for my generation. I think for
your guys generation, Like I think we probably all around
the same generation. But it, uh, it's like a space
I was so into this, like we're colony on Mars
kind of stuff for the Human Genome Project, We're going
to cure genetic disease. Like that stuff just tends not
to materialize in whatever version it does is generally not

(01:15:45):
good for the human condition in my experience. Well, well,
I don't want to turn into like a grumpy anti
science guy, you know, but anyway, well.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
No, it's just like you were saying earlier that there's
a problem with corruption and people. You know, the industry
doesn't make any money, the pharmaceutical industry and the insurance
industry don't make any money off of healthy people. And
it's as simple as that. And you've got to open
your eyes, folks, And then probably no one listening to

(01:16:13):
this podcast is going to you know, everybody knows what
I'm talking about. But it's just it's one of those
things where it's just pure corruption. Healthiness is not what
they want. They don't want you to be healthy. They
want you to be stuck in that medium and keep
you almost keep you alive as much as they can
while you're just induced on all.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
Their It's completely true. And you know, the healthcare system
in general is pretty dehumanizing, I would say, but you know,
it's just the nature of the incentive structure and the
business we built and the system we built. It's not
the people. You know, people are just the providers are
just for the most part, as much victims as the recipients.

(01:16:54):
But I would I would just say, I would just oh,
you mentioned some I kind of like my train of thought. Oh,
just just just to say that, Oh man, that's one
of the first times that's happened.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
I just completely lost it has well.

Speaker 3 (01:17:08):
I'll tell you what, I will backtrack a little bit
and say that that I'm not saying that they don't
save lives. There's pharmaceutical drugs that totally freaking insulin, and
and and a moxa celling, and there's and and there's
plenty of of but we're not talking about you know,
the majority of drugs are just just not good for you.

(01:17:30):
They they might help you, they don't. They don't treat
the root cause, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
Well, okay, so you that that for some reason prompted
what I was going to say, because yes, I agree
with you absolutely. I mean, there there are drugs that
there's a lot of people alive today that wouldn't be
alive without medicine. So it's like, when I start thinking
about the structure of the healthcare system and pharmaceutical development,
it is dark. There's some darkness to it, especially at

(01:17:56):
the administrator level. I was a healthcare administrator for a while.
A soul, but there is some darkness to it. And
I find when I talk about it, not only does
it bum me out, it bums everyone around me out listening.
And I realize this because that that is because you're
you're tearing down a belief system. It really at a

(01:18:17):
very subconscious level. Logically you know you're gonna die, but
at a very subconscious level, you kind of feel like
technology is going to protect you from this, from your mortality.
And so when you tear that down, it's devastating unless
you have something to replace it with, which I think
you know you guys do obviously, so you can talk
about these topics without getting depressed. But if if you

(01:18:39):
don't have that, you don't want to believe that that
that drug development is just about gouging people, and and
and that chronic disease is the best thing that ever
happened to these multinational corporations, you know. So I think
in a sense like having faith that it it's and

(01:19:02):
of course it doesn't make sense. It's the worst possible
thing for corruption and evil systems in society is believers,
Like you don't want your society to be made up
of believers. Really, if you're one of these people.

Speaker 1 (01:19:14):
And point a lot of these things that we're cautious of,
they the majority of people in the world, they get
deceived by these things. They don't even see the caution
sign because because things are the agenda is successful, because

(01:19:37):
things are passed in a way to where they look good,
they feel good, they sound good, and and you know,
for example, for example RFK right, you know, he's a
real big health proponent. He's someone who wants he cares
about the health of every single American. But then he

(01:19:58):
goes ahead and mentions something that is incredibly against your
liberty as a human being, and that's wearables. He's like, Hey,
we're going to have wearables in four years, but it's
going to monitor if it's going to be able to
pick up if you've got cancer developing. It's going to
be able to pick up if you've got hypertension that's
right around the corner. It's going to be able to

(01:20:19):
pick up. Hey, you know your HbA one C is
getting way too high. Stop eating pizza. You know what
I'm saying these things. But but really the agenda and
the goal that that these people that kind of you know,
rule the world, they they want to now be able
to monitor body activity data. And you've consented over to this,

(01:20:39):
and now now there's no going back once it's already
put in place.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
And maybe even you know, more insidious and more subtle
as it does feed into this delusion and this belief
system that there is a solution to mortality. Right, I
got where I got my wearable. It's tracking and you
know it's going to tell me. And it's like, there
is not a solution. Well, there's one solution, right, there's
one guy who beat it, right, and so that's that's

(01:21:08):
you know, I think that would be a better substitute
than idolizing your fitbit or whatever. But it's not the fitbit.
It's it's the idea behind the fitbit. It's the idea. Now, listen,
be healthy, of course, but it does not take multinational
corporations to make you healthy. And I think the data
just proves that. Likes, it's just obvious, right, And so

(01:21:31):
a lot of this evil, a lot of the corruption
it capitalizes on a good impulse, Like the road to
Hell is paid with good intentions, you know, like people
want to be healthy, they want to live longer, they
want to be there for their kids, and it's just like, oh,
we can get our hooks into that, you know, we
can make money off of this, and and yeah, I
mean it's been complete.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
It's almost like when you're actually driving on a highway,
right and you're super hungry and you see that highway
sign that says dunkin Donuts, Chick fil A, Wendy's. And
you're like, oh, all right, yeah, I'm satisfy my fleshly designed.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:22:02):
You know what does Bennett call that the He calls
it some Bennett with broadcasting seeds. He's like the gauntlet
of fast food chains that you drive past the day.
It's just such a temptation.

Speaker 1 (01:22:14):
Well, and what we're talking about too, Just to just
to top off this little point, but it's what's interesting
when I was talking about technology, how it's gone so
big and clunkyd now it's getting so small. Technology is
at some point, for the most part, helps us outside

(01:22:38):
the body. But then when I read in Revelation and
I see the mark of the Beast, it clearly says
or it's implying it's doing both of those things that
it's it's a piece of technology that is inside of
your body. And then later on in Revelation to get
more context to what this mark of the beast the properties,

(01:22:59):
and it's capable. People that have this mark they seek
death and they can't find it. So when I'm thinking
of that, I'm thinking of something that that is. It's
a it's a it's a false promise. What I mean
by a false promise is you're promised the wrong thing,
like your promised to live forever, which is a misdirection

(01:23:22):
of what you actually fall into. If that makes sense. Yeah,
you know, you actually fall into losing the agency of
your consciousness. If that now, I don't know what how
does that play out with you? Because I do believe
that I can make my own decisions right now. And
I compare this with like Siri right, Like I have

(01:23:45):
agency over Siri right. I can tell her what to do,
I can give her my schedule, I can put an
alarm clock, all this kind of stuff, you know. But
but when Siri is now inside of me, I don't
have that agency. See, I feel like, yeah, and who
knows if there's like you know, something down the road

(01:24:06):
that can actually be put in your body. That's as
far as technology that where you know, you think you
have agency, but sometimes you're put in the back seat
and something else is driving.

Speaker 2 (01:24:16):
I think it's I think it might be more nuanced
than that, because I think I think we always have
a choice, and it's because the soul is you know,
it was created by God and it was we were
endowed with it, and that is permanent and there there
is nothing you can do with that aspect, but that's

(01:24:38):
not all we are where that's plus this, And so
I think you can do a lot with this, like
the physical brain to manipulate that. And so if you like,
for imagine, imagine you're going hunting, right, or imagine if
you it could be shown something that isn't true. Right,

(01:24:59):
You're shown, you're shown some someone is attacking someone, and
so you might let's say you shoot that person in
self defense, but that wasn't really what happened. That was
an illusion, right, Your your soul was unaffected. Your soul
made all the right choices, it did all the right things,
but it was deceived, right, it was deceived by the flesh,
I guess in that case. So I think I think

(01:25:19):
the soul is pretty impervious. I think it's pretty I
think agency is pretty difficult to take away until you know,
until until you lose it due to age or death. Right,
I think it's pretty. But then again, who knows. I mean,
I I kind of do also believe that there is Like,
just because something is divine doesn't mean it doesn't have

(01:25:42):
physical properties, and physical explanations. It can still be real, like,
it can still be divine and be physical. Right, And
so if we think there's structures in the brain, which
is kind of what I think and something I write
about that interact with that, that sort of act as
an antenna for the soul, right right, Well, then then
that's the point of manipulation. That's a tech. That's a

(01:26:04):
point that technology could particular potentially interfere with. So yeah,
maybe I don't think we're anywhere close to that yet though, And.

Speaker 1 (01:26:11):
I think the masterminds that are really trying to merge
with this, this technology that has that will have the
ability to kind of do this you're saying, like it
it doesn't have the full capacity to to take your
agency away, that to to fully block off the consciousness,

(01:26:32):
but it's got to. Maybe it's it does something to
where you just can't get a full grip on it.
Maybe I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:26:39):
I don't know, because that's the playbook is I was
just going to say deception sort of the playbook of
of the enemy, right, And so I think you could
characterize sin that way, right, you know, lust, this is
your your your your agency isn't being removed, You're you're
you're being manipulated, deceived, or blowled or pulled into something right,

(01:27:03):
And so I think that's probably always going to be
the attack vector, is some sort of manipulation of our agency. Well,
lose it, because then we then we've lost free will
and we're no longer human. You know, that's something we
were endowed with. So I don't think. I don't, Yeah,
I don't. It's hard for me to believe we would
be judged if we've lost agency due to that.

Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
Well, well but what if it what if just before
that you decide to worship the beast and then take
the mark of the beast, so you fully have like committed. Now, well,
this is good because there's a there's an article here.
I just pulled this up. But we've covered this a
lot on the show. And this is called flipping a
switch inside the head. And what this is. This is

(01:27:49):
a Rockefeller funded study, peer reviewed, but they had big
rats study to where you know, with new technology, this
is what it says. With new technology, scientists are able
to exert wireless control over brain cells of mice with
just a push of a button. The first thing they
did was make the mice hungry, so they were trying

(01:28:10):
to do studies to where they were able to manage
glucose levels and the metabolism of these rats. And we
know that science, you know, experiments with rats because there's
a very close what is it, what was a DNA
structure or something like yeah, yeah, yeah, supposedly.

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):
But anyway, they're called humanized rats. They sort of like
manipulate the genome of the rats to make them human. Interesting, okay,
which is some dark stuff in and of itself, but
let me can I let's just talk about it first, Like, Okay,
you're manipulated to be more hungry. This is interesting because this,
this is the argument that a lot of atheists make

(01:28:51):
against free will. Robert Sipolski, God, he's such a smart
guy and I hate to see him deploy his talents
in such a disastrous way. But his entire career is
like basically focused on proving that free will and consciousness
don't exist. And one of the examples he loves to
use in interviews is the hungry judge effect. And basically
one of the best predictors of sentencing severity in a

(01:29:14):
criminal and civil courtroom is how how many hours since
the judge has last eight controlled for social demographic factors
of the defendant. And so he kind of makes this
point like, well, clearly there's no such thing as free will, right.
If the number of hours since you ate determines how

(01:29:35):
you sentence someone, well then you're not free. And it's
such a silly argument to me, Like, of course we
have physiological desires, but that doesn't change the fact that
there's an agent making decisions right now. Those decisions can
be influenced by physiology, like in the case of the mice,
they can be made to be more hungry and that's

(01:29:57):
going to influence the choices they make, but they haven't
been stri of agency. They're still going to decide to
eat or not eat or whatever. Right, And so I
guess it just depends how much, how how much does
God hold us accountable for the free will that he
gave us, And so I just got to hope that

(01:30:18):
that judgment will be fair, right, right, and uh, And
so that's I mean, ultimately, though, I don't think we
ever lose that choice, even if you could technologically manipulate
the desires, like if you can make us more lustful
and more gluttonous and more which they do, or at
least increase the desire. Right, you're still the one making
the choice.

Speaker 3 (01:30:37):
Interesting, Yeah, you've got to repent.

Speaker 1 (01:30:39):
And this is this is too, this is Second Thessalonians too.
And I'll just read verse ten and eleven and it says,
and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish
because they received not the love of the truth that
they might be saved. And for this God cause I'm sorry.

(01:31:01):
And for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion
that they should believe a lie. So if there's it's
almost like when I'm a and I I agree with you,
but then when I I think when when I read that,
it's it's almost like we're parents, right, It's like when

(01:31:22):
our kid makes a mistake, a mistake, a mistake and
they just choose to go that way that you're you're
trying to corral them to go the other way. You
just will let them go and then it's like, hey,
good luck. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:31:41):
I mean, this is like the beauty of the whole
free will thing. And you know, so many you watch
so many of these atheist debates, and like the problem
of evil, it's just so easily explained by this gift
of free will, right, But I it really helped me
once I read the New Testament with the first four books,
at least later in life that I had had kids already,

(01:32:05):
because if I conceptualize God as a father, like does
everything makes so much more sense. And it was like
such a nice gift to read that for the first
time after I had had children. And you know, it's
funny they this is I don't know where I saw this,
but but basically one of the things that most well

(01:32:27):
known atheists have in common is father issues, like a
deep father wound from childhood. And it just makes so
much sense because if you cannot place yourself in the
position of like a benevolent father, like if you don't have,
if that's never been modeled for you, it would be
very difficult to embrace God, right because yes, because like God,

(01:32:48):
because because fathers are are these horrible people that hurt you, right,
and so you pick up on every little bit over
bariness exactly, Yeah, and that rebellion is like that is
there a problem in the whole narrative? Right, So I
completely agree, totally totally.

Speaker 3 (01:33:07):
People hurt people hurt people. Man, Like Joe Rogan said
it a billion times, and it's so true. A lot
of this stuff, if not all of it, stems from
childhood trauma. It's yes, it's unfortunate, but I think it's
a majority truth for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:33:22):
And I got to believe that stuff will be taken
into account. And when I read the Gospel, to me,
it's like there's an insistence upon like you know, you
don't know, you don't forgive, you know, unless the judge
not let's be judged thing. I know there's like a
lot of controversy about the full context of that, but
Jesus does seem like he does he does seem like

(01:33:46):
he understands the context of action, you know what I mean. Like,
I think these people who have been hurt, who do
bad things, I think I'm hoping maybe they'll be held
to a different account, like the circumstances that brought them
to this place will be But ultimately, I think no,
regardless of the situation of our lives, of her childhoods,

(01:34:06):
you gotta gotta repent. You gotta make a choice at
some point.

Speaker 1 (01:34:10):
Yeah, just turning, Hey man, turning, it's changing your perspective. Yeah,
you know, which is which? Then other things you know
that you repent from sin and all that, because it's
like turning away from the fleshly way of thinking. How
you how you thought the world was reran. Yeah, it's like, hey, no,
it's it's it's gonna be. That's why the concept of

(01:34:30):
being born again, right like you you you you wake
up and you're like, man, this is the truth. Yet
I was ignorant to living a lie the whole time.

Speaker 2 (01:34:40):
You know, yes, it makes it makes so much sense
to me that, like, because you you, like, man, Lucifer
was an angel, you know, he sat next to God, right,
but it makes so much sense to me that the
thing that like brought him down was ego and bride
because like that that is what we That is the

(01:35:01):
number one barrier I think too, uh to to finding
religion is is just this I don't know, it's it's
not like a like people because I was like the
worst kind of atheist in college, you know, just molecular
biology major and blah blah blah. And I had I

(01:35:22):
had Christians in my life who would say things like
like like, you're just acting like I don't remember the exactly,
but this idea that I was kind of trying to
be God, right, and that never resonated with me. Well,
that's not true. That's not true. I don't think that,
you know. But now being on the other side of it,
looking back, it is something like that. It's it's not

(01:35:44):
just like raw, unabashed hubris in the sense that I
think I'm God, but it's something that rhymes with that.
I couldn't put words to it. There's no level of humility.

Speaker 1 (01:35:56):
Yes, then then in theory you are on top, You're
on top of the pyra.

Speaker 2 (01:36:04):
Not only do I like I don't have the humility,
but it's like I believe that you kind of put
your faith in humanity right right, like like there's people
out there somewhere out there, there's somebody who can figure
this out and understand this. And yeah, it's it's a
it's a weird type of pride. It's a weird type
of selfishness.

Speaker 3 (01:36:23):
Absolutely, that's the culture. Like going back to that, that's
the culture of academia. A lot of it, I would say, probably,
if not all of it.

Speaker 2 (01:36:32):
Yeah, in the in defense of academia, I will say
that the typically the people like doing the actual work
are pretty They're not so bad, you know. I would
still say the majority of probably this, But but they're
they're pretty open minded, you know, they're pretty they're kind
of just in the search of truth, you know, and U.

(01:36:55):
But somewhere between them and like us, there's like this
layer of scientific communicators, science advocates, administrators, journalists, science journalists
that just really, I just I think that's probably where
the bigger problem is. Not the people actually like doing experiments,
but it's a mixed.

Speaker 3 (01:37:16):
Back manipulating them their ideology. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:20):
Yeah, so it's like a filter between the actual work
and the people that that occurs, right, Odd.

Speaker 1 (01:37:26):
Trevor, I had a question for you, man, So with
with with creation, with you know, all these different laws
of physics and theories, with the understanding of cosmology and astronomy,
what would you say that what what makes you believe

(01:37:51):
that there's a creator with all these different things?

Speaker 2 (01:37:55):
Well, once I realized that there, I can either believe
that God created the universe or I can believe in
some other set of miracles. And when you conceptualize it
like that and you start walking yourself through the list
of miracles, it gets pretty easy to become a lot

(01:38:16):
more open minded and less confident in like an atheistic worldview.

Speaker 1 (01:38:19):
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:38:20):
I mean, even Hitchins, you know, atheist debater, so it's
very smart. You know, he I admire him, you know,
I kind of feel bad for him, really, but I
admire him. Incredibly intelligent, and even he said the only
thing that gives him pause is it's sure does seem
like this universe was designed for life, And it's just

(01:38:41):
such a crazy thing to hear fromhim because it's so true.
I mean, that's the fine tuning argument. But then there's
I've heard Elon must say this another atheist, you know,
why is there anything? That's a question that you have
to contend with as an atheist. It's a it's a
it's an important and very relevant question, and people will
dismiss as irrelevant, but it's not why is there something

(01:39:02):
rather than nothing? And even like, you know, a lot
of these ideas that are now kind of like scientific
dogma were religious ideas. The big Bang is a religious idea,
and it was it was dismissed as being religious. Actually yeah,
it wasn't until Hubble observed the you know what is
it the red shift or whatever, that they kind of

(01:39:23):
adopted that idea as being scientific. So George Lemit I
can't pronounce his last name. But it was a Jesuit
priest who came up with it. He was an astronomer.
So yeah. So and then of course a biogenesis maybe
the craziest miracle of all, which is take evolution as
a given, like I'll give you evolution.

Speaker 1 (01:39:44):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (01:39:44):
I mean, I'm not saying I believe that. I'm saying
I'll give it to you. Wind it back. Evolution is
the emergence of new species from another species due to
isolation and adaptive pressures, natural selections, sexual selection. Rewind it,
get back to the very first speci she's how did
you get to that one? Yeah, and so that's a biogenesis.

(01:40:05):
And similarly, a biogenesis was I mean, the original idea
was that life just burst out of non living matter,
because you know, they if you leave meat out in
the sun, bugs would pop out of it. Right, That
was like Aristotle's view, And then Christian Louis Pistore came
up with pasteurization and all that stuff said, no, there's

(01:40:26):
a biogenesis, doesn't occur, it can occur. They demonstrated experimentally,
and that became that was adopted as mainstream scientific wisdom
that there's no such thing as a biogenesis, and now
we believe in a biogenesis again that molecule maybe nucleotides
from meteorites potentially started bumping into each other, they started

(01:40:48):
to form certain nucleotides had affinity for one another, they
bonded to each other. This led to information bearing molecules.
And then once you have an information bearing molecule, replication
can occur, and over billions of years you get iPhones.
You know. Wow, that's uh, that's another miracle. So there's
there's many uh you carry uh, you carry outs. A

(01:41:10):
bacterium from the purple phylum of bacteria had to invade
a cell and evolve into a mitochondria m for multicellular
life to emerge. It's another miracle, man, It's just there's
too many of it. I mean, you could, you could.
I don't blame people who choose to believe that set
of miracles, but we're all just picking a set of

(01:41:32):
miracles in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (01:41:33):
Wow. Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah, I mean anything like
that before I did not I, as Sam Tribbley says,
I flunked the first grade.

Speaker 2 (01:41:43):
So that's as this is not this is certainly not advertised, right,
you don't advertise the miracles upon which your faith is
based in the sciences, you know, but if you dig
into it, these are this is the these are the
better rock principles of all these different ideas.

Speaker 3 (01:41:59):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:41:59):
Yeah, and I think there's like some validity. And again,
don't mis understand what I'm trying to say here, especially
the audience because I'm not an evolutionist. But it's almost
like they've taken the creation in Genesis and they've just
they've just turned it and changed it and created it
for their own idea of what happened. Because when you

(01:42:23):
do look at creation, right, God created the heavens and
the earth, and and you know, God, you know, set
a firmament right, and in that there's a waters above
and waters below, right, And when you look at when
things start to come alive, it comes alive out of
the water. And this kind of goes back to like
where evolutions. You know, hey, we were at first primordial

(01:42:44):
soup and life developed you know, from sea life into
other life. And I that's where I'm like, you know,
and maybe that's what I call like a type of gatekeeping.
It's it's in a way, they they they they disbelieve
the Bible, so much that they're they're going to try
and come up with their own ideas that they can

(01:43:07):
justify and make it sound real good. And what I
mean by justify is like on a medical scene, if
I do something different than another paramedic, I know, I
can justify why I did that. It doesn't mean that
it's right or the best way to do things, or
that it's entirely correct. It's just I can justify it

(01:43:30):
and tell people what they want to hear, and then boom,
I did my job.

Speaker 2 (01:43:35):
This is like the story of human history is the
ability to rationalize that you're the good guy, right, you know.
And this I would say is maybe kind of it's
the same story over and over again, the Biblical story.
It's like you need you need an orienting truth, like
you need a better principle, and there's really only one
good one in my opinion. You know, as I learn

(01:43:56):
more and more about this stuff, you know, it's it's
the whole you know, some man, some of these passages
from the Bible, it's like there's no way we came
up with it, like lean not on your own understanding,
like that is such a profoundly true truth, you know,
Like some of these truths are just so profoundly true.
It's like, man, yeah, you just see them in everything.

Speaker 1 (01:44:17):
I remember I would tell Jesse that when he like
wouldn't fully and he you know, when he was like
coming along, you know, he was like catching on. And
I would send him that because because he's trying to
compute things in his own brain, yeah, to make it
make sense. And I was like sometimes yeah, and I
would send him that verse and he's like, what do

(01:44:38):
you need what? And I'm like, it's because a lot
of the I mean, the Bible is spiritual. It's it's
it's spiritual, and we try to break things down in
the physical because that's what we're consisted of. It's like
God will reveal these things to you. You over time

(01:45:01):
or how much you study the word or how much
research you do with all of that, and then things
start to get revealed to you and then they click.
They make sense. You know. It's like, oh, I finally
was able to swallow that.

Speaker 2 (01:45:14):
You know, what's it? What's it called? When you like
open the Bible to a random page, there's like a
word for it.

Speaker 1 (01:45:21):
Just as a big fan of that, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:45:24):
I mean, there's there's probably like some weird. It's probably
not like a good practice. I don't know, but I.

Speaker 1 (01:45:32):
Think that's almost supernatural.

Speaker 2 (01:45:34):
Yeah, reading the Bible is probably never a bad thing, right,
But so I've got a hard stop at seven. So
if I could end with this recent experience I had,
It's not that recent anymore. It's like three years ago.
But I was right. I was probably still would call
myself an atheist, but I was definitely feel like something
was wrong, you know, with that conception of the world.
And I was having like a particularly I would call it,

(01:45:57):
like a dark knight of the soul, you know, like
what is it all me? Why are we here?

Speaker 1 (01:46:01):
Why is it so short?

Speaker 2 (01:46:02):
And I was having some health problems at the time,
and I just was like in a dark place. I've
never been. I've never been one to like get depressed,
but I was like like some mix of like anxious
and scared and upset, and and so I did. I
had just started reading the Bible and I opened it
up and it was the verse in job. But it's like,

(01:46:22):
who are you em brace yourself like a man? Who
are you to question me? You weren't there when I
laid the cornerstone of the universe. Kind of thing, and
I was like, wow, it just felt like such a
like wow, exactly what I needed to read, Like do
you just wow, chill out? Like who are you to question?
But you just live your life, you know? And and
so yeah, I think that was kind of because people
have always asked me like when did you how did

(01:46:44):
you make this journey? That might that might have kind
of been maybe sort of like a turning point. After that,
I was like, Okay, maybe I should maybe I should
give this a try. Okay was not working out.

Speaker 3 (01:46:57):
It's called bibliomancy biblioman The practice involved seeking guidance or
insight by interpreting a randomly selected passage.

Speaker 2 (01:47:06):
Yeah, and yeah, you know, it's maybe not You could
open it up and it could be about wearing different
linen cloths or whatever. But in that moment, it just
felt it felt powerful to me, and so it was yeah,
I don't know, it's kind of like a version of
lean not on your own understanding.

Speaker 3 (01:47:22):
Sure, absolutely, just.

Speaker 2 (01:47:24):
All more complicated than we could possibly imagine.

Speaker 3 (01:47:26):
I think so too. I did the same thing years ago.
I would my grandmother passed away and I felt lost,
completely lost. I was young, I was nineteen years old
and I was like, man, I don't even I came
to an understanding humility in myself, like I don't even
understand why I'm alive, Like we're probably never will well Yeah,

(01:47:48):
but I was hopefully yeah right. I just wanted I
wanted to take it more serious. I guess I wanted
to take life more serious. Yeah, and I did the
same thing. I opened up to a random passage in
Corinthia that was talking about how don't listen to man
for man is ignorant. And I really held onto that
for a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:48:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:48:08):
Yeah, like, don't don't don't idolize, like you were saying earlier,
don't idolize. Slow it down, yeah, slow it down.

Speaker 1 (01:48:14):
Yeah yeah. Trevor Brother, thank you for coming on the show. Man, dude,
this this is not the last time we're going to
have you on.

Speaker 3 (01:48:20):
This was one of the greatest conversations.

Speaker 1 (01:48:22):
I really think that we've had, if not one of
the best podcasts I think we've we've had in a while.
And that's not saying anything about our other guests or anything.
This just is just a show that just keeps getting
better and better, baby, and we ain't never going to
stop stop stop.

Speaker 2 (01:48:39):
I would love to come back as often as you'll
have me. We need to talk about micro tubules, and
then we need to talk at some point. I've gotten
super into the science of the shroud.

Speaker 1 (01:48:48):
So I love it. I love it all right. Part
two in the making, folks, stay tuned for that. I'll
be able to promote that and everything. But Trevor real
quick man, just if you, if if you wanted to
let the audience know where they can find anything of
your content creation and authorship and book and all that,
all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:49:08):
Yeah, so please buy the book. God's I view. It's
audiobook and print book. I read the audio book. There's
a few mistakes. Give me some grace. There's a couple
of repeat sentences. You'll be fine. It's okay. But if
you like audiobookser's an audiobook, and please check out the
podcast Bad Press Amazon.

Speaker 3 (01:49:28):
Sorry, hey, by the way, bad Press, real quick, bad Press.
I looked it up on Spotify. Is it the red
late the red logo?

Speaker 1 (01:49:34):
Okay, yes, all right, okay, and we'll make sure that
with my editor.

Speaker 2 (01:49:38):
So it's we're rookies, but it's get in there.

Speaker 3 (01:49:40):
I like an Epstein Part two, Money Talks Bad Press.
That's that caught my eye. All right, it sounds pretty good. Yeah,
check out the previous episode. Oh well we haven't. Well
it'll drop.

Speaker 1 (01:49:49):
But with Brad Binkley, we covered a lot of intense
Epstein stuff with Propaganda report. But Trevor again, thank you
brother for coming on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:49:58):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:49:58):
We're going to move over to the Biblical hit Men debrief, but.

Speaker 2 (01:50:02):
Appreciate your brothers, guys.

Speaker 1 (01:50:04):
Biblical hit Men Debrief. Trevor Lowman, thanks for coming on
the show, brother, author, researcher, professor. Here's his book, folks,
God's Eye View. Check it out. It's a really good read.
It's an easy read as well, even though some of
the words in here are ridiculous, but a lot of

(01:50:27):
fun to say the least. And that was awesome show Man.
We really we covered a little bit of his book,
but we really on the spiritual level of things and
intellectual conversation of the Word of God. I think we
did a pretty good job. I think we did an
awesome job.

Speaker 3 (01:50:44):
Yeah, I loved it. I would just I just ramble,
like I don't come into the show most of the time,
Like I know a little bit about the guests, but
I'm really just more interested in their take on the
world and where we're at and their spirituality.

Speaker 1 (01:50:59):
You know, yeah, you went straight to revelation.

Speaker 3 (01:51:03):
Where do you think we're at?

Speaker 1 (01:51:07):
Yeah, He's like, can I just talk about quantum physics please?
And I think I think that these kind of conversations
is uh, you know, especially people that come on with
a specialty, or they come on talking about a specific topic,
or just authors coming on talking about their books. Sometimes

(01:51:30):
it's good to take them into the deep water.

Speaker 3 (01:51:33):
Sure, absolutely all of us.

Speaker 1 (01:51:35):
And I think that's how we grow as Christians and
men of God believers, because that's really the best currency
that we could give to each other, right getting into
biblical stuff or making connections with biblical stuff. And I
really think we did a pretty pretty awesome fun job
at that for this episode, especially for the audience. Drop

(01:51:56):
a comment, man, see if you you know, how what
did you guys think about this episode? Also, I'm excited
for a part two because I think we're going to
dig more into quantum mechanics, quantum physics and and uh,
what does he say? Tubulars. It's something that he said he.

Speaker 3 (01:52:14):
Wants to come back on and talk about micro tubules, tubules.

Speaker 1 (01:52:19):
Right light, which will be a fascinating thing man, especially
with kind of like the topic we've been kind of
getting into lately with this quantum technology. It seems like
it's something that's just it could be proposed as something
as very helpful to humanity, and it's literally like what

(01:52:39):
Olaf says in Frozen, It's like the advancements of technology
could could be our savior and our doom, and it's
it's just this predictive programming idea of technology that it's
some way going to be so useful, so good for us, right,
It's going to help humanity tremendous, But at the same time,

(01:53:01):
it turns a switch and it turns its back on
you in some way. And I think that's why we
got into the conversation of artificial intelligence and is this
something that is conscious.

Speaker 3 (01:53:18):
Well, I agree with where Trevor was saying that we
are the one programming all of this technology, we are
steering the wheel. Still, I completely agree with that. I
totally agree with that, and that is the end to
his part where he was saying that's the scariest part
to him. I disagree in a way to where I'm saying,
imagine a sentient manelevant.

Speaker 1 (01:53:40):
Or taking control of it.

Speaker 3 (01:53:42):
Benevolent? Is that how you say that? Yeah, imagine some
you know, some supernatural whatever spirit, evil spirit thinking for
its own, which is so crazy and stupid to say
to a lot of people. But at the same time,
I mean, look at Project star Gate. We are programming
or creating this, this system that is going to run

(01:54:06):
the world. Folks. I'm sorry, that's what that's And here's the.

Speaker 1 (01:54:09):
Thing too, like just because something is saying everything, like,
for example, if artificial intelligence at where it's at right
now that we are telling it in a way or
teaching it, or or we're in control of its computing
power or level of degree to how it functions, that's

(01:54:32):
not just we can't be dogmatic on that understanding to
where that's how it'll be forever. I think it's like
with our and I brought this up in the show,
you know, I look at artificial intelligence like like the
growth of a human. Right, we we go from we
grow from, you know, being a fertilized you know, embryo,

(01:54:53):
and then all of a sudden you're walking talking and
cursing your parents out the next day. But at the
same time, that to me shows the power of development.
And if this artificial intelligence, which it's it's constantly developing.
It's like it's growing like a human, right, and it's

(01:55:16):
to say, like, who's to say when it gets to
a certain level, a certain age, right, because I'm comparing
this to humans. It gets to a certain age and
it all of a sudden just walks out on its parents,
walks out, decides to go and live on its own.

Speaker 3 (01:55:33):
I get where you're coming from.

Speaker 1 (01:55:34):
You get where because it's spiritual. It's spiritual understanding too
that comes behind this.

Speaker 3 (01:55:38):
It's called the agentic state, is what a lot of
the tech guys are calling in.

Speaker 1 (01:55:41):
I would say it's like singularity.

Speaker 3 (01:55:44):
It is, but they're calling it right now. They're saying
it's like limited human interaction. It's more like eighty percent
twenty eighty twenty type of deal, like eighty percent AI
thinking for itself in twenty percent programming from a human standpoint.

Speaker 1 (01:55:58):
Right, and in the think yeah, Like in the movie Terminator,
it was like Genesis, the countdown to Genesis, Right, Genesis
is going to be like, oh, the AI goes online
and it's going to save humanity and all of a sudden, Now, dude,
that was the point that it decided to walk out
of the house or not listen to you as its parents. Absolutely,
And then that's the pants around the ankles, right, Yeah,

(01:56:22):
that's the pants around the ankles man.

Speaker 3 (01:56:24):
And you got Arnold Sarsenegger coming in here as a
you know, flesh robot killing everybody trying to kill.

Speaker 1 (01:56:31):
There is another symbol in the movie too, that that
what you see with your own eyes and your your
understanding of something is not exactly what's behind the curtain,
Like you're seeing a natural human person walking around, but
really it's a t one thousand ah.

Speaker 3 (01:56:52):
No, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:56:53):
But this is the conspiratorial mindset. This is why sometimes
it's tough for you know, not Trevor, but just people
in the science community. They hate, they don't hate, but
they have a tough time wrapping their minds around how
to think conspiratorial.

Speaker 3 (01:57:10):
Right, you're right, You're so right. And the fact is
that there's been many conspiracies deployed against the world over
I mean many many years from Roman times and beyond.
You know, it's all like playing the game risk.

Speaker 1 (01:57:27):
How about in the gospel, dude, like, how about Jesus
is telling Peter like, Hey, I'm going to I'm going
to die. Peter's like, no, Lord, I will not let
anyone kill you. And he's like get behind me, Satan, like, no,
you don't understand there is a conspiracy against me. You

(01:57:48):
think it's not going to happen because of your own
way of thinking, But do not get in my way
of my will being done right right, Peter thought he
was doing a good thing.

Speaker 3 (01:58:01):
Yeah, yeah, protecting And we all would we all would
probably say the same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:58:05):
To Jesus exactly exactly. But that's where we where we
think we become so confident in our own thoughts with
certain things that that thing, and it's it's like life's
moving like this at times, and it's it's just slow
it down, slow it down, and then you can see
the writing on what's around you.

Speaker 3 (01:58:25):
Yeah, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, I mean, yeah,
just don't don't you know, don't rely on your own
It's a kind of a weird.

Speaker 1 (01:58:32):
Thing that you brought that up, man, because that was awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:58:35):
Humility, Like you got to understand you don't know everything
and you can't try to predict really anything. I mean,
you just gotta do your best to to to keep
your head on a swivel. I guess, I don't know
sure what was I gonna say? I was gonna say something. Oh,
I wanted to bring up earlier we were talking about
neural you know, he's he's in neuroscience, right, that's his

(01:58:58):
vascular I'm saying this wrong. Forgive me, Trevor. I think
he said he's so. I would just thought of this earlier.
I remember reading how you were talking about life is
in the blood, and what pumps your blood around your
body is your heart. It's a pump, and your heart
actually sends more signals to the brain than the brain

(01:59:21):
does of the heart. And I thought that was a
very interesting fact. Well it's a very it's just weird.

Speaker 1 (01:59:29):
It's yeah. Well how about so how about the consciousness discussion,
because that was an interesting discussion too, because let's just
take for example, because the the the papers on the
table read that consciousness is something as far as agency
as well, right, that that it's something that no matter

(01:59:51):
what you can you do to it, you can't overthrow
the con you can't overthrow this conscious life.

Speaker 3 (02:00:00):
You have an agency, You have an agency over it.

Speaker 1 (02:00:03):
But but and it's funny too, you know, Trevor comes
on and we get into discussions with him and and awesome,
awesome conversations and then But but what's so funny is
because I do think with this show, we the conversations
that we have with a certain guests at with the
timing of things happen perfectly on time, like and what

(02:00:24):
I mean by that is because we're what what have
we been talking about for the past month, like agency
over our consciousness and that that that we think that
there's a piece of technology that's going to be integrated
with you know, humans and down the road that is
going to uh block that or take that that away.
And let's just use the example of mk Ultra, Like

(02:00:48):
we're talking about people that get out and sharing candidates
right like they become sleeper cells, they become like we're
talking about people that end up they end up getting
induced into this into not having agency over themselves anymore
with a certain trigger. And a lot of that stuff

(02:01:09):
stems from like the occult. For example, I just went
and watched the movie Weapons with my wife. I actually
took my wife on a date. It was great, it
was an awesome time. We went. We watched a scary movie.
But you know me, brother, I'm in there, I'm watching
the movies, and I'm scanning, scanning, scanning, scanning, and and
the whole time, right, like the like people were being weaponized.

(02:01:30):
But the main part of the whole movie is not
only were people being weaponized, meaning there was an occult
witch in the movie that was was that was taking
the agency away from all these different kinds of people
in the town just to sustain her her life and

(02:01:51):
her longevity with her life. She was trying to live forever.
So she was stealing almost like the the life force
from these pe people and controlling them like a like
a queen bee would to the to the hive, right,
it's this whole hive mind concept that we talk about
on the show. We talk about it relating to the
Mark of the Beast. We talk about the anti Christ

(02:02:12):
playing that that that queen Bee because we know that
there's going to be a war against the Saints, we
know that there's going to be you know, why else
would Christ say that these days should be shortened or
else no flesh should be saved. This means to me
that is you know, I'm not going to say the word,

(02:02:33):
but it's a it's a mass elimination concept. Where all
of a sudden, you know, the Queen Bee sends off
a pheromone, aka the anti Christ sends off of you
know whatever, a five G frequency and maybe six G frequency.
These people that have the integration of the mark or
that are able to you know, receive this pheromone right,

(02:02:56):
and then all of a sudden they're triggered to do
what the Queen wants to to do. This is like
the zombie theory. We see all these things in movies
because I really think it's a concept that the occult
is working very hard to accomplish for their god right
who they want to usher into this world so badly.
You know, why was Oster Crowley doing rituals in the desert,

(02:03:19):
Why was Jack Parsons doing rituals in the desert. Why
are they talking about bringing in this this anti Christ.

Speaker 3 (02:03:27):
That's a really good point that you just made. That
triggered such a simple thought but makes a lot of sense.
Is that programming would if you were going to think
about turning someone on an on and off switch of
whatever you want him to do, you're going to send
out movies about viruses spreading and turning people into zombies.

(02:03:51):
And also you're going to send out. And then a
lot of Christians have made like, you know, like, what's
that cartoon that we always talk about.

Speaker 1 (02:04:00):
Yeah, you can look it up on YouTube. Just type
in smart Mark cartoon, smart Mark cartoon. You'll see something
that pulls up. It looks like a news reporter is
on like the thumbnail of the YouTube video. Check out
that video, dude. And this is a kids show on Netflix,
right wo and and and who's the you know, last
episode you know with with Brad, he brought up I'm

(02:04:24):
gonna pull up, pull up the guy's name right now,
but he brought up the guy who is pretty much
the godfather of propaganda. His name is Edward Berneze.

Speaker 3 (02:04:40):
Yep, right, yep.

Speaker 1 (02:04:42):
And with propaganda, you have the manipulation in the subconscious
where they prime you to to to somehow get you
to either accept that these things will happen, which could
be a part of like that life that life force, uh,
that life force, that whole idea that it's the idea

(02:05:08):
of consent to the occult. It's almost like if I'm
selling lemonade and I'm poisoning the lemonade to kill you,
I'm going to put a lemonade picture on the front
of the tabletop cover with a big red circle with
a with a you know, an a slash in the

(02:05:31):
middle of it saying or just a poison symbol on it.
How about that? So if you come and you buy lemonade,
it's your choice.

Speaker 3 (02:05:41):
You're consenting. Yeah, you can see you know, you know
what you're doing. Okay. So Edward Burneze he is the
great uncle of Mark Randolph, one of Netflix's co founders, right,
And that's.

Speaker 1 (02:05:54):
Why they come out with all these movies, man, that's
why they I mean, why do you think they're making
superhero movies? Right? Oh? In Special the movie I just
watched Weapons, right that the witch in the movie literally
was wearing a red wig, painting red lipstick, like ridiculously,

(02:06:14):
by the way, was not even looking good. It was
it was like she was she was putting on this
this this this image and you know, with like kind
of black around the eyes and white makeup around everything else.
That Literally, if you go check out Paul Stobs, you look,
you know, Nephelin look like clowns. We we have the idea,

(02:06:35):
through different cultures in our history that these offspring of
the fallen angels give off a clownish look, and it's
funny that the witch was doing that, which the witch
was not only in occultist, but she was praying or
praying to Satan throughout the movie. Or was Satan you know?

Speaker 3 (02:07:00):
Yeah, I think I think at the end of the day,
people that understand the dark arts, as Theovonne would say,
the dark arts. It's true. I believe it, and I
think what these people do is they channel these beings
by emulating them, and that's where all these festivals come in,
like foss Knock Festival. Paul Stobs talks a lot about

(02:07:20):
that and festival in Germany, and it's too It's basically
they dress up like a bunch of demons to get
rid of the end of the year. It's like an
end of the year festival, like bring on, We're going
to scare the demons away to bring on the summer
or the spring, and then everything's going to grow and
be luscious. That's like one of their festival. But what
they're doing is they're emulating all the demons. And if

(02:07:42):
you emulate a demon properly, or emulate an evil spirit,
you'll be able to control it in some circumstance to
benefit you. You know what I mean. That's so, that's
what she was doing in the movie, right, she was
sorry a big, big spoiler, big spoiler.

Speaker 1 (02:07:56):
For I don't even care because we need to do
a movie review on that, because there's so much more
to the movie. The black goo is in the movie.

Speaker 3 (02:08:05):
That's time we did a review. Was Will Smith and
that I think we got flat music video.

Speaker 1 (02:08:12):
Oh well, we're not going to play it. I think
I think literally that we just need to talk about
the movie and the cryptic symbols and our conclusions to
what I think. I mean, my conclusions to this is
what I literally think an idea of what it could
look like for those that do take the mark of

(02:08:32):
the beast and the fact that you lose your agency
to some sort of trigger a certain frequency. In the
movie too, she rings a bell and boom, dude, but
she does a ritual, right, She did this ritual right
in front of the guy just before she took over
his brain. Literally, she like cuts her hand, but she

(02:08:57):
she takes something. Listen to this takes something from you, dude.
This movie had so much significance to the story that
she takes.

Speaker 3 (02:09:06):
A clothing item or something something.

Speaker 1 (02:09:09):
That is of your person, something that's of your person.

Speaker 3 (02:09:11):
Your DNA on it pretty much.

Speaker 1 (02:09:13):
I wouldn't say, but it's attached to you.

Speaker 3 (02:09:16):
You take this hat off me, its my skin cells
on it. Well, it's gonna be that's yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:09:23):
I would say it's an object. It could be an
object or a piece of you. Because people were taking people.
She was taking pieces of hair, she was, you know,
taking And what's funny is whatever is wrapped around this.
It's funny because she uses a tree, right, and it's
almost like you can make a connection there with the

(02:09:44):
tree of knowledge of good and evil. She uses like
little tree branches of this tree that she has. It's
almost like a Joshua looking tree.

Speaker 3 (02:09:51):
Dude.

Speaker 1 (02:09:51):
It was really wild, brother Joshua trees. Oh, I know.
But I think there's like this old, ancient ritual that
is out there, and I'm going to try and find
the ritual because I think it'll it'll make the movie
even that much better.

Speaker 3 (02:10:06):
You're going to perform it.

Speaker 1 (02:10:08):
No, no, no, no, no, I tell you what we prayed
on the way home though. We prayed on Oh yeah,
we prayed against everything. By the way, I was sabotaged.
I think it was spiritual attack man because I think
that I the devil did not or whoever is in
opposition of Jesus Christ did not want me to go
see that movie because of how I break movies down,

(02:10:30):
and because I'm giving this information not just to myself,
not just to my wife and my mom. Looking all crazy,
I'm actually yeah, like I'm giving little currencies to everyone, man,
because people need to start waking up. This is the
world that we do live in.

Speaker 3 (02:10:47):
I'll be completely real the world. I'll be completely honest
with you. And this is speaking directly to the listeners.
I am a very skeptical person, and I try to
be that way. It's almost like a scientific method. I
used to have serment and reality, and I deny stuff
at first most of the time, and then I kind
of humiliate, you know, I come around to it like

(02:11:07):
I'm like, Okay, I'll give it a chance. Let's look
more into this. Stevie. Every time Stevie's watched any movies,
he's come back to me with the craziest symbolism and
what it means and what it could mean, and it's
just it's dude, I'm telling you right now, there's been
nothing he's said to me about I don't know, several
dozen movies. They all clicked it all. It was all like, dude,

(02:11:29):
I think you're spot on, Bro.

Speaker 1 (02:11:31):
Yeah, well dude, how about this right? We And this
is funny because I think not only is this podcast
under spiritual warfare with the the players that that that
make this podcast right like, but for example, you know,
they're occult rejects. I don't know the gentleman's first name,
but he was on Bennett's show and he talked about

(02:11:53):
the dilation of a pupil and a constriction of the
other pupil, that this they're they're not bilaterally equal, right,
And so he says that, you know, and this is
a guy who is involved or was involved with Oto,
right like this is this is like one of the
highest degrees of her medicism in ancient EGA. It's what

(02:12:15):
basically I think Alistair Crowley was involved in, Like this
is this templar right or whatever it was, or temper years,
whatever it is. I'm not an occultist, but he was
mentioning that when he would mess around with magic, his
pupils would go like that. And in the movie Bro,
in the movie literally the Witch at the Dinner Table

(02:12:37):
in one of the scenes. You can see it, bro
her pupil. One of her pupils is constricted, the other
one's blown bro. And she's doing a ritual right there,
the magic ritual in front of the sun. And she's
controlling the consciousness of the parents, of his parents.

Speaker 3 (02:12:52):
Oh geez ud, Okay, stop, don't don't, don't learn how much? Okay,
but I want to I do want to say this.
Like that being said, I did not believe Stevie at all.
He showed me the video. I said, that's bs. I've
been around drugs plenty enough. It does that with psilocybin,
it does that with MDMA, it does that when you're

(02:13:13):
having a panic attack, or you're dehydrated, or you're low
on potassium. Like, there's a lot of different So I
was telling him, like, you know these other factors that
I'm just I just have those certain life experiences that
are all very weird that I had so many that
would dilate your eyes different sizes. But then Stevie comes
at me like, I don't really believe that he's talking
about the liver king right that the liver King's dilation

(02:13:36):
was two different sizes. He had like blue on his
tongue methylene blue. Everybody's taken that right now, So I'm like,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:13:41):
I think that's another ritual. Yeah, I think that's another
the blue modern practiced ritual in the name of a trend,
and the world puts on these trends, but people don't
know the ice bucket challenge was a ritual. People had
no idea. They thought they were doing something good for.

Speaker 3 (02:14:01):
Which weird, but they don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:14:03):
They don't know that they're doing something that is an ancient,
ancient understanding and for example, and you know what, God
gives us confirmation man through certain things. And I feel
like when I went and saw that movie, which I
think I was being sabotaged to not go see the movie,
but I went and saw it, and I think that

(02:14:25):
seeing that people thing was confirmation for an idea.

Speaker 3 (02:14:31):
Oh yeah, no, I believe I was sold. When you
called me earlier, I was leaving a job and Stevie
called me and told me the story about the pupa dilation.
I was like, you know what, I had this weird
thought after I told you that's ridiculous and I was
being arrogant and I told you, I was like that's
just that's just ridiculous to me. There could be a
plethora of things, especially drugs is the first thing I
think of, because you look at Liver King and he's

(02:14:52):
out of his damn mind right now. But regardless of that,
I thought, I just randomly thought, like, you know what,
you need to calm down and you need to hear
this out and stop being so so fish and arrogant.
And then Stevie calls me and tells me this. I'm like, Okay,
that's confirmation for me. I'm done. I believe it. I'm
there now, I believe I'm sold. It's hilarious. So oh,
I wanted to say this last and best thing I had.

(02:15:14):
I was having bad dreams the other night. I had
a family friend coming to town and stay with us
with his son for a couple of days. And I
was like having a bad dream, and I was like,
I woke up out of bed and I felt a
really negative vibe in my house and I walked downstairs
and he fell asleep to insidious and Insidious was on. Wow,

(02:15:37):
And I'm like, that's why I turned it off, prayed
a little bit, went back to bed. We good, But
I had I don't get negative vibes like that at
my house, and I'm like, why do I feel this way?
I need to go, Like, yeah, go scope my house out,
like I need to go.

Speaker 1 (02:15:54):
That's the Holy Spirit turning to me a little bit,
like hey man, you know wake up.

Speaker 3 (02:16:01):
Yeah, that's kind of what it was. I just randomly
woke up out of nowhere and get up, turn the tea.
Something wants something's not of my liking. Yeah, I think
we have exercised. Great movie a Spinteria. Go check it out, folks.

Speaker 1 (02:16:18):
All right, well, hey, that was an awesome debrief Again,
Trevor Brother, thank you for coming on the show. Man
had a really awesome conversation. It was the first, but
it's not the last. We're going to do a part
two of God's Eye View, folks, and hopefully we can
get to that in a reasonable time. We still have
a part two to do with awesome Picard. I want

(02:16:39):
to work on that. But man, folks, we are so slammed.
We have such a great schedule for you folks, Awesome guests,
especially next week La Marzuli and Shepherd for the King Matt.
It's going to be pretty good. Stay tuned. If you've
hung out with us this long. We appreciate you, we
love you and want to support the show. Make sure

(02:17:01):
you hit that subscribe button. Like the show, share it
with your friends. You can check us out on audio
platforms as well. Real quick about ads, Apple Ads, Yes,
and Spotify. Sorry, and Jesse wants to cut me off,
I'm doing it. Flow and talk about ads real quick.

Speaker 3 (02:17:16):
Ads, folks, We we love you, we appreciate you. On
Spotify and the and the the audio it's it's kind
of annoying, but come to come to our YouTube if
you If you don't like the ads, come to the YouTube.

Speaker 1 (02:17:28):
And that's why I post the when we premiere the
YouTube and I put notifications on there. But basically as
well in the description that that's this is ad free space.
So come on over to the YouTube, check us out,
see how ugly we look, and hit that subscribe button.
But with all that said, that's it, man, folks. We
love you. We see you next time.

Speaker 3 (02:17:49):
Sue you s

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