Episode 101: "The One With The Nose Guy" with Special Guest Cameron Ford"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The industry is sick and I was like I'll be the one
to say, hey, we're bettertogether.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
For sure.

Speaker 1 (00:05):
You know and like what are some things?
There's a lot of folks outthere that are struggling right
now and you know, I feel veryfortunate that you know.
Knock on wood, you know, we'renot and we're staying busy and
we've got a large team wecontinue to recruit.
I'm not saying we're doingeverything right out there to

(00:30):
help you know, and it's like ifI can help you do better, that's
going to benefit more families,more dogs.
If there's things that you cando to help me do better, well
that's going to benefit morefamilies, more dogs.

(00:59):
And a'm not surprised by thelack of openness that we've run
into what's going on everybody.
Welcome back to the Big DogPodcast.
Really excited for today's showbecause I think you're going to
learn a lot and you're going tolaugh a good amount as well.
We got Cameron Ford of FordCanine in his studio across the
country.
We couldn't be further aparttoday.
California and Virginia.

(01:19):
Cameron and I met a couple ofyears ago in Vegas when he was
based out of there.
He came out, was kind enough tospeak and share some wisdom and
knowledge with myself and someof the other owners with
Off-Leash Canine Training whenwe were having our owners
conference there a couple ofyears ago and since that time
I've had several teammates goout and attend different
seminars and programs thatCameron's done, and the one

(01:40):
constant that I've always heardover the years is wow and holy
shit when it comes to stuff thatthey got to experience working
with Cameron and his teams.
And for a while now I've beenlike man.
I really should reach out toCameron about coming on the show
, because I think it would justbe a great, fit and fun
conversation to have, and wefinally connected and were able
to make it happen, and sowelcome to the Big Dog Podcast,

(02:03):
cameron.
I really appreciate you comingout.
Thank you very much.
I'm able to make it happen, andso welcome to the Big Dog
Podcast, cameron.
I really appreciate you comingout.
Thank you very much.
I'm glad to do it.
That's awesome.
Now, cameron, you have apodcast yourself and it's Canine
Talking Sense.
Talk to me a little bit aboutthat.
When did you kick that off andwhat has been kind of the
lessons learned with that?

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, so that started .
We're in our sixth year rightnow and on episode I'll be
airing episode 102 coming up.
And yeah, that podcast was kindof started because I would be
having some of these amazingconversations with some of the
scientists and really goodtrainers within the detection
dog community and I thought tomyself you know, podcasts were
just kind of starting to catchyou know momentum back then.
So I was like, you know, it'dbe really good to kind of share

(02:49):
some of these conversations Iwas having with everybody else.
So that was the brainchild forthe podcast.
And then it just became a thingand what I started doing was
and I it was.
I look back now and I cringe atyou know, what I used to use and
how the audio was back then.
The first I don't know 10episodes it's all over the place
as far as audio quality andthings like that.

(03:11):
Like episode one was likehorrible.
But over those years you knowit was interviewing researchers,
interviewing influentialtrainers, people of various
techniques, because the wholegoal at the end was like what
you guys do is, which is justshare lots of different points
of view, lots of differentinformation, and in my world
it's, you know, the detectionside of things.
So that's where it came to, andnow it's turned into, like you

(03:34):
see, the studio and we do mostof the interviews in person now,
and it's turned into a YouTubeshow.
So it's like it's like anythingoff in one way and then all of
a sudden now it's a wholedifferent production.
But the big goal that I want toaccomplish is share that
knowledge and information to awide variety of people through

(03:57):
that kind of platform.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, it's really amazing.
It's funny.
It started out with a dog, aleash, a crate, yep, exactly,
and we started from that.
Now it started out with a dog,a leash a crate Yep, exactly
yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
And we started from that.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
now it started out with a microphone and a laptop,
and we were joking before theshow, talking about equipment
changes and stuff, and you know,I was really finicky when we
launched a couple of years ago.
I was like man, it needed tosound right, it needed to look a
certain way.
Like I couldn't.
And everyone told me like josh,just put content out, just put

(04:30):
the content out, that's whatmatters, just start.
And, man, I wish I would havereally listened to that, because
we would be much further alongnow had we had we done that, but
I needed a stubborn shocker,and I wanted to look, sound and
feel a certain way, and now thatwe're you know, we're coming up
on our 100th episode, and i'm'mlike man.
Our equipment has gotten somuch better.
We've changed things so much,though, and I'm so less worried
about how it looks and feels.
I'm so much more excited aboutthe content that we're actually

(04:53):
putting out, and then the factthat it does sound good and look
good, because we're doingYouTube also and all those
things.
But I agree, it's like man tobe able to get content out to
people, to where they can learn,where they can share it, expose
them to a different way ofthinking, maybe a different
process and, really selfishly,the stuff I've learned from
having people on the show, Imean it's just, it's been

(05:14):
tremendous.
And when I started the trainingside I would never thought I
would do a podcast or anythinglike that.
That was the furthest thingfrom my mind.
But it's crazy how I know youhear it a lot with your show.
Man, that show was great.
That really helped me with this.
I couldn't believe you knowwhat they were talking about.
That changed my whole mindsetas I approached working with my
dog on some detection things andyou're like, oh crap, people

(05:35):
listen and there's there's helpand there's guidance that they
get.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, it's exactly what you said.
It became, you know, obviously,when I started.
You know, obviously when Istarted, you know podcasts
didn't even exist.
It wasn't a thing.
And you know there's a joke Imake now where, you know, back
when I started doing in thenineties it was, you know, you
get a business card and atelephone number and that's what
you had.
And then a few years later, weget in the early two thousands.

(06:00):
It was a website.
You had a website and an emailaddress and that was on your
business card, so that you werean established business dog
trainer because you had an emailaddress and you had a website.
That's right.
And then fast forward to about2007,.
2008-ish.
All of a sudden, social mediastarts creeping in and then fast
forward a few more years.

(06:20):
Well then you had to have yoursocial media site, your website,
your email.
Fast forward to now.
If you're a dog trainer and youdon't have a podcast, how can
anybody take you seriously?
right yeah, what do you mean?
You're training dogs?
No, you don't.
I've never seen a podcast.
You can't be training dogs.
How is this possible?

Speaker 1 (06:37):
so you're not on spotify.
You don't train dogs?

Speaker 2 (06:39):
yeah, exactly so it's just the evolution of, yeah, um
, the means of communication andit's another source, that's a
open source, free source ofinformation that, uh, is
available for everybody and andand just like what's you know.
The next evolution, like wejust talked about too, was how

(07:03):
the podcast is audio and formatwhen it was first out there, and
it's still primarily that.
But for a significant portionof podcasters, especially the
early adopters like ourselves,it now has turned into a YouTube
show.
You know so because people kindof craved, especially when you
talk to certain specificinformation, they wanted to also

(07:24):
be able to have a way tovisualize that, and that happens
now through YouTube and othervideo formats.
So I already expect, you know,give it another year or two and
you can't be a dog train unlessyou got your YouTube show of
your podcast with all this stuff.
So in the technology, as we wereboth talking about before on

(07:46):
the air or before we got on theair, was how the equipment is
more obtainable, easier to use.
And now the next thing and Iknow you guys probably play with
it too the ai aspect of editingand some of the other things
that used to take me out like Iwould do a recording of an hour

(08:06):
of a podcast, but it would takeme four hours of editing to get
it where I want.
Now I hit one button with AI isdone in 10 minutes.
Yeah, that's freaking crazy.
I mean it's.
So as this gets simpler, youknow, like anything else, the
joke we're making will becomereality.
Dog trainers will have theirown show in in conjunction with

(08:28):
being a dog trainer, and that'show you'll reach your audience
and share how you're the bestand your technique is the most
influential and so forth.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
So until it becomes something different in 10 years
exactly.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Then we're, then we're the really old guys.
You're like back in my day.
You know it's four and five,four, four, seven years ago I
had just a video camera.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, man, I think about all the crap and tools
I've used over the years, likefrom a because decision, because
we already had a pretty largesubscriber base on YouTube you
know, 12, 15,000 videos oftraining and so we had a

(09:12):
platform there, cause we'vealways used it.
But, man, you're talking aboutthe equipment.
I just laugh.
Like we had, like the Osmos, Ihad the DJI, the mini, you know,
we had the gimbals for thephone to hold the phone.
We got, we lost our mind andhad the DSLR guys following us
around Like we're, you know, inHollywood.

(09:33):
I mean, we, it's been all that.
Now the thing that's reallyfunny is this dang phone though.
Oh, it's crazy Is is, unlessyou are just diehard passionate
about the videography and thephotography side, these phones,
you know, can capture thequality-wise, editing-wise out

(09:54):
of the phone.
It's pretty remarkable.
So, cameron, you know 30-plusyears in the dog world working
with dogs all over the country,all over the world.
Really, what started this off?

Speaker 2 (10:07):
you know what's that dog moment where you're like,
yeah, this is what I'm gonna doso for me growing up, my
neighbor was the guy who started, uh, basically police dogs in
mainly the central florida area,but it was between him and a
guy in south florida that werethe kind of first to get police

(10:28):
dogs going.
So this is in the late 60s,early 70s.
The guy who I grew up next tois a guy named bob gailey, not
to be confused with bob bailey.
For those that knew who bobbailey is, bob gailey, um, was a
us army handler.
He as his cause when he was in,all they had was sentry dogs.

(10:48):
So his last couple of years inservice he was stationed at
Washington DC and his his jobwas to walk with his dog and
guard the different monumentsand locations around the DC area
.
And at that time a gentlemannamed Pat Cahill comes over from
the UK and he was the first tostart teaching what is now the
modern police dog, not thesentry dog that couldn't be

(11:11):
handled by anybody.
It was a police dog that wasstill, in today's standards, a
tough, strong dog, but could behandled by.
You know, it wasn't just oneperson, only kind of concept,
sure.
And now there's actually anaward on the USPCA side of
things called the Pat CahillAward, which is where it comes
from.
So, anyhow, my mentor, bobGailey, went and was one of the

(11:36):
first, you know, us citizens togo through Pat Cahill's class
back in those days.
So he goes through that, getsout of there, starts his own
business called Canine,incorporated down in Florida.
That's who I grew up next to andI was the little kid that he
would use to put next to his bigRottweilers and Dobermans and
German Shepherds back when therewere station wagons and I'd be

(11:57):
in the back of the station wagonwith all the dogs and go to
demos and stuff like that.
And the crazy part was I wasscared to death of the dogs,
really young, and then somethingswitched and it became the
thing that I loved.
So you know, fast forward someyears, he ended up moving away.
You know, I did the normal lifeof going through school, high

(12:17):
school etc.
And then I was taking my firstclass in college and I decided
for whatever reason was, I wastaking night classes.
So in these night classes I hada bunch of cops and started
talking to a few of them andjust they were like oh yeah, do
a ride along with us.
I was like Sure, okay, so go tothe sheriff's office, fill out
a form and then, as I'm drivingaway from the sheriff's office,
I look over and I see the canineguys training in this field.

(12:40):
So I just kind of pull over andI'm watching.
So of course you know now,being a cop years later, I know
what they did.
They see this kid sitting thereand they're like what the
hell's going on.
So the guy comes out to me likecan I help you?
And I was like, oh, I'm justwatching.
You know, a friend of mine, myneighbor, used to do this.
His name is Bob Gailey and hewas like oh well, bob's's over
here.
So the guy yells hey, bob, somekid named Cameron sitting over

(13:04):
here.
And then he yells what?
So I go walking over and thenfrom that day forward the next
day I was at his facilitycleaning kennels.
I mean, I cleaned kennels anddid all the normal grunt work
stuff for about a year.
But every night by 4 pm thecanine guys would start showing
up to his facility.

(13:24):
By 4 pm the canine guys wouldstart showing up to his facility
and they they would train from4 pm to about 4 am.
Monday through friday.
Oh wow, I would work all daylong and then hang out until
about 4 am, sleep a few hours,come back in, do kennel stuff.
And I did that for an entireyear.
I sat at the police class and Ijust sat out there by their
little bonfire they'd have setup and watch what they do.

(13:46):
And finally, on year two, theguy who was a police officer,
who was kind of like Bob'sright-hand guy when it came to
training, especially policeclasses, guy named Mike Ansley.
Mike comes over to me andthrows a sleeve down at my feet
and says, hey, your turn, you'regoing to start decoying now.
So I was like, well, what do Ido?
He goes, you're going to startdecoying now.
So I was like, well, what do Ido?
He goes.
Just, you've been watching,imitate what you saw us do.

(14:07):
Right, that's exactly what Idid and I kind of imitated and
they would give me tips and makeme better, and sure, yeah, but
after that for the next year allI did was decoy, lay tracks,
hide in buildings, hide incabins and schools, and all of
that vicariously taught me a lotof little nuances.
That when I later the next yearbecame a handler.
So this is that was like in1994.

(14:28):
So 1995 I became a handler.
But in 1994, by being the decoytrack layer, I ended up
learning so much about how dogssearched, because I was what
they were looking for.
A lot of right, yeah.
So and I I could hear when ahandler would walk by and miss
where I was at.
But the dog would you know,these were obviously in school,

(14:48):
these were class dogs, so theyweren't, you know, out in the
road yet.
So the dogs would sniff, know Iwas there, but then follow
their handler and leave and theneventually come back and find
me.
But it taught me little things.
So then, when I did become thehandler, if I heard my dog do
certain things, I'm like, oh,okay, I know what's going on.
Now there's somebody orsomething over here.
So therefore I should payattention to this.

(15:10):
And that's kind of how it went.
And then that after that firstyear in 1995, I was only 21, 22
years old I kind of had a choice.
They were telling me I wantedto be a cop and they were like
you're on the younger side, yeah, you could probably get hired.
But they all kept saying thesame thing, which was go in the
military, go in the military, goin the military.

(15:30):
And I had, you know, mygrandfather and uncles and stuff
that had done stuff.
And that was at that time I wasalso, even though it sounded
like I knew what I was doing Iwas a wayward, you know, 20
something year old that wasn'tsure what to do, sure Not really
settled in life.
So the family kind of just said, well, you need to get your
shit together and when youdecide what that is, you know,

(15:53):
then you can come back home andlive at home until you decide
what to do.
So you know, I would live in.
You know, I had an apartmentfor a little while, live with a
friend.
And then then so I was like,okay, this, this kind of living
was, I had this moment.
Basically, what happened was Iwas working also at a vet clinic
in my part time and I starteddating this one girl who, back
then, what had a fiance, but forwhatever reason, she was

(16:14):
hitting on me and I was likethis is awesome.
So, long story short was, westarted, we dated for a few
months.
She realized living with a poorkid like me was not as good as
her rich fiance, so she quicklyleaves me, goes back to him.
I'm sitting there now goingwell, I don't have anything.
And a good friend of mine hewas a deputy he was like well,
stay at my apartment.
I'm not there hardly ever.

(16:35):
I'm living with my girlfriendmost of the time.
So I'm sitting in his apartmentand I have like, oh yeah, I
have to add that the vet endedup firing me later on because
when the girl I was datingdecided to go back to her fiance
, well, that made work a littlebit more, you know, tension
oriented.
Yeah, he was like, okay, yougot to go because you've only
been here a few months, she'sbeen here for years, see you

(16:57):
later.
So now I have like no job, I'mjust cleaning kennels, doing
stuff.
And I was sitting in his housecounting.
I took his change jar and Idumped it out and I'm counting
through all the pennies andnickels and whatever to get
enough money so I could walk tothe albertsons down the road so
I could get at least tuna, fishand bread, because I could at
least eat that.
And I was like, okay, this lifesucks, I don't want to do this

(17:19):
anymore.
And then that's when I decidedto go to the recruiter.
And then I decided I was goingto go in the Air Force, thanks
to the tip from my uncle and Iwent to the Air Force and I was
just there a couple weeks ago,almost 28 years to the day from
when I went through there thefirst time as a just a airman
basic and back at the dog school.
We're now 28 years later.

(17:41):
I had the opportunity to goteach there after being a
handler, handler there, goingthrough the school, and that's
what kicked off the career atthat point for me was going
through the military, going tothe Air Force, being selected to
go through military, workingdog school and then being of all
places to get stationed at.
I get stationed in Ramstein AirForce Base, germany, and at
first, when I get thatnotification or I get the orders

(18:04):
, I was all bummed out.
I was like, oh man, I want tobe back in florida, be near bob,
be near my friends.
And I call up bob and I waslike, hey, you know, I got my
orders, I'm going to germany.
This sucks, I, I don't, I wantto be back in florida.
And he goes shut the f up, hegoes, you are going to where we
learn all of our dog stuff.
Yeah, I don't want.

(18:24):
It's like you're going to thehomeland.
I don't want to hear youcomplain of how you're being
stationed in Germany.
You should be taking thisopportunity to go learn.
And that sunk in and I embracedit from that moment on.
And then my years in Germany, Idid exactly what kind of he
said I should do, which is thenI went and traveled all over

(18:46):
Europe, learned the differentprograms from KNPV to Schutzen
to French Ring to Mondior Ringto NVBK.
You know, having enough yearsover there, I was able to kind
of really get engrossed into theEuropean dog culture, which was
super cool.
And then from there in thattimeframe, out of all the places

(19:07):
I picked to live off base, theplace I end up at the backside
of that property was a farmfield.
But I kept hearing, the firstfew weeks I lived there, dogs
barking on Friday nights and onSunday mornings.
And being a dog handler, we allkind of know barks right, we
know bark a certain way and Ikept hearing this barking that
sounded like German Shepherds.

(19:28):
So I was like so then finally,one day on Sunday I walked
through this cornfield, come outthe other side and then there
is the Schaeferhundverein ofKaiserslautern, which is a
little German Shepherd clubright there.
So I walk up.
I'm like Sprechen Sie Engl,english?
And they were like of course wedo.
The Air Force base is rightthere, why would we not speak
English?
So from that moment forward, Iended up becoming a member,

(19:50):
going to the club, becoming a,going to become a helper, a
decoy, and lo and behold, was aPoli-Sci handler that lived
there and worked or would gothere, and he was one of the
guys that would help out intraining.

(20:24):
No-transcript.
They gave me, like it's called,dpo2, which is a police dog
title, and by getting that itput me in a position that when I
got out of the Air Force andcame back to the United States,
I was a young American who gotlucky and had been through at
that time Wendell Knope thosewho know him, he's a trainer

(20:47):
that was based out of Utah.
The Utah Post was startedbecause of Wendell Knope, but he
had been through the Germanpolice dog program and about a
handful of other Americans.
We were it's a few numbers, butit opened the door for this
28-year-old kid, me, to comeback to the United States and
start hosting police canineclasses.
Back to the United States andstart hosting police canine
classes.
So I'm teaching cops at 28, 29years old with only my military

(21:14):
law enforcement experience andsome good dog knowledge how to
do some dog stuff and that'skind of the start to the next
level of starting in my life.

Speaker 1 (21:19):
For that so funny when, how life does that, when
you kind of decide, like youknow, maybe I am young and a
dipshit, I don't really knowanything and you kind of get out
of your own way and you realizehow, really, if you can do that
and stay committed to that, thepath is there to follow.

(21:40):
Right, like that, like that'sperfect, like that's a perfect
setup for you at that stage oflife.
Right, not that you knew whatit was going to lead to on the
back end of it, but to getshipped off across the world to
the mecca of that world of dogtraining, you know, and in an

(22:01):
environment that also seeminglybased on the story and I know it
was the cliff note version butseemed very open and welcoming
yes, you know, to this young guy, yep, whereas we both know, in
this industry a lot of timesgroups aren't super open and
welcoming, and so how amazing isthat?

(22:22):
So you get out of the air force, you come back home or come
back to the States and startteaching seminars.
Now, where are you going topost it up then?

Speaker 2 (22:31):
So I grew up in Orlando, Florida.
So when I got out of the AirForce and at this time I was
married, so this when I was inthe Air Force, I met this
awesome woman who it was funnybecause I, we were on a bus, we
had a weekend off while we werein the police training at the
time when we weren't in dogschool yet and I noticed her on

(22:52):
the bus we're driving and I was.
I look at the guy next to me,I'm like I could marry that
woman and I don't know why Isaid that, but I said it and
then didn't see her againbecause we were in different
phases of training at the time.
So then I ended up at dogschool.
See her there.
Her name back then was KellyBeard and I just gravitated to
her.
Long story short.
We got married.
She was stationed initially atMinot, North Dakota, and I was

(23:12):
in Germany, and then sheeventually got over to Germany
and then we came back.
So once we got out of themilitary we decided to go back
to where I grew up, which was inthe big Sanford, Florida, and
with the help of my parents atthat time, there was.
You know, I knew what I wantedto do.
I actually was going to go andbecome a cop right away, and my
parents were, like, why don'tyou try to do what you really

(23:36):
want to do, which was to have adog business?
So, anyway I ended up.
I was driving to one of theSchutzen clubs and then, on the
same road as the Schutzen Club,I see his house for sale.
And back then this place was a10-acre property with a house on
it and it was down the roadfrom the Schutzen Club.
So everybody knew where to goand it was only like $189,000 to

(23:56):
buy this place.
So this is in 2000.
So we bought the place.
My parents co -signed for me, Iget the place and then my
parents gave me like seed moneyto start with.
So then I built a kennel on theproperty.
So we it was actually an oldChristmas tree farm so we had to
clear the property.
We had to level it all out, doall this stuff, built the kennel
and then that's what startedand this was the funny part.
So the the company name I hadback then was called Universal

(24:20):
Canine.
Okay, and Universal canine wasin Florida and I did that for
about five or six years and thecrazy part was which shifted.
A lot of things was right.
When I bought that propertyacross the street, this huge
development company buys allthis land in front of me and
they put 240 homes over in thatproperty while my place was

(24:42):
going on on this side of thestreet.
So one side of the street wasconsidered County agricultural
land.
The other side of the streetwas city of Sanford neighborhood
and all the develops.
To give perspective, this wasin 2000.
At this point, fast forward.
Now it's 2000.
I got out of the military in2000.
Now we're at 2005, 2006.
So I'd been in this propertyfor five or six years.

(25:02):
I've been teaching policecanine classes.
I was importing dogs fromEurope.
I was a Schweikert dealer.
I had made friends with Tinaand Michael Schweikert those
that know that's one of thebiggest German companies that
sells like Schutzen styleequipment and things like that.
So I'm rocking and rolling.
We're doing that kind of stuff.
Kelly and I are still marriedat that time and being your late
20s and you know being you knowyour late 20s at this time I

(25:23):
think I was 30, 31, maybe 32.
And it was a lot ofresponsibility for not a lot of
experience when it comes tobusiness.
But the thing that happened wasdevelopers said we want to buy
all this land because on my sideof the road was acreage again,
you know.
So they wanted to come across.
I kept making the joke hey, ifyou guys pay a million dollars,
I'll sell.
Well, this one lady who was arealtor represented a property

(25:46):
behind me that was landlocked bymy piece of property that was
to the roadway.
Anyway, she just said, hey, letme just try to see what I can
wrestle up here and get a deal.
So, anyhow, I'm doing a policecanine class.
I see this back in those days itwas really nice H2 Hummers.
So I see this H2 Hummer roll upand I was like, ooh, someone's
got some money.
And she comes walking up to meand she goes hey, I sold the

(26:09):
prop.
I was able to sell the propertyif you're willing to sell.
I was like for a million bucks.
She's like no, but you know849,000.
And I was like what I said, oh,for all of our property.
She's like no, that's just yourpiece.
That was close to a millionbucks.
So I was like holy shit, okay.
So I said, well, I don't wantto move right now.
Can they wait a few months?
So she negotiated a deal.

(26:30):
The long story comes to.
I decided to, we sold and mynow ex-wife goes into working
for one of our clients.
I became a police officer forthe local cities right there and
that goes into that next phase.
So by 33 years old I ended upgetting divorced.
I'm now a cop.
I'm working in a city you know,I live five minutes from the PD

(26:53):
and it's a small town agencyand I had trained their police
dog.
I'd sold them their police dog.
So I was I was actually at thattime the local one of the local
canine trainers in that region.
So a lot of the policedepartments that were in where I
worked had I either sold allthe dogs to them or have trained
them in some way or another,and I ended up working for that
first department.
Never was a dog handler withthem.

(27:14):
Then go to another departmentwith I got dangled the carrot in
front of me like, hey, we needa dog handler, you want to come
work here?
I go to them.
Next turns out the guy who hiresme the day before he swears me
in, he takes a job for thegovernor.
So then now I'm on hold becausenow the interim chief can't
make, I can't pull the triggeron me becoming a dog handler.
And I still had to do trainingperiods, I still had to become,

(27:36):
go through FTO and all thesethings.
So by the time all that happens, they end up hiring a chief
from the outside, nobody fromthe inside.
And then that guy realizes thatagency needed a lot of other
things to address, not justcanine.
So he straight up told me heylook, I'm not going to address
the canine issue until I fix abunch of other stuff.
So within 10 months of thatagency I bounced to my best

(27:58):
friends oh, the agency I had theclosest ties with was the next
big city up in Orlando.
So there's orlando, there'snext city called apopka, and
those are your big cities inthat in that orange county area.
It's all changed since then,but anyhow, I go to apopka and I
go from an agency where if youhad a cat in a tree, you'd have
five officers show up to apopkawhere there'd be a robbery, and

(28:19):
then they have a lieutenant, geton the radio and ask the
dispatchers is the robbery overover with or is it still?
Is it currently active?
And they'd be like it's overwith.
Okay, put it on hold until thenext available unit.
I'm going holy crap, you know,robbery call on hold because
we're so busy as I'm goingthrough there and you know a lot
of my best friends at that time, who I had worked together when

(28:40):
I was selling dogs and being atrainer with them, are now in
positions of rank.
So one of my really goodfriends at that time had become
a lieutenant and he was like hey, look, I'll put you under my
squad, cut you loose on Fridaynights to be with our with the
canine guys, and, of course,whenever a position opens up,
you're a shoo-in for that.
So I worked for them for alittle over a year and I'm doing
my thing.
But now this is going to be2009, ish.

(29:04):
The Iraq and Afghanistan warsare kicking off.
You know, we're in full warmode.
At that time and because of mybusiness before, I had
connections to people that werelooking for dogs and I kept
getting called by differentgovernment contractors and, hey
Cameron, what are you doing?
What's going on?
Blah, blah, blah.
And I was like I'm a cop.
Finally, this one company saysman, we need trainers, we need
trainers, bad, and we're workingon a contract with Kennedy

(29:27):
Space Center and that's in yourarea.
Would you want to come work forus and be the canine sergeant
and run that program?
And I was like, oh hell, yeah,that sounds awesome.
Yeah, so I was going to jump onthat.
And typical governmentcontracting work.
I'm going through the policeacademy for NASA, we're I'm

(29:48):
going through the police academyfor the for nasa and they,
their contract got protested.
And this is december 21st too.
This is like right beforechristmas.
There's people from all overthe nation, you know, going
through the academy and they'relike sorry guys, everybody go
home.
The contract's protested andit's on a 90-day hold.
So I'm now without the cop job.
I'm now sitting at my housewith not much to do.
The company did the right thing,said hey, we're going to keep
you on payroll for as long as wecan while this is being

(30:08):
protested, right, and as I'mwaiting and I start working to
get some extra money for a guynamed Bill Heiser who those that
know Southern, it was calledSouthern Oaks Kennel back then.
It's now called Southern CoastK-9.
But anyhow, he and I had workedtogether back earlier days and
anyhow he you know he and I hadworked together back earlier
days and anyhow he's like hey,come work for me, you can do
some simple stuff.
And he'd he'd pay like pennieson the dollar because I was

(30:30):
cheap labor and so I'm doingthat.
But then one of those companiesthat was out there was a
company called AM Canine orAmerican Canine, and they were a
small, small startup companythen but they got one of the
biggest contracts in Afghanistan.
So then that ends up pushing meto Texas to go help them out.
So now I'm in San Antonio Now.
Remember my company name wascalled Universal Canine.

(30:51):
After I sold that property Ishut down the company so it no
longer existed.
I'm in San Antonio for a coupleof years at this point and then,
while in San Antonio, become areserve police officer in that
area, I hear how there's.
I kept hearing universal canine.
I had people calling me up,going hey, I hear you're in San
Antonio.
And I'm like, yeah, I am, soyou're doing your business there
.
And I'm like, no, I'm not.
We talk I'm working for agovernment contract agency.

(31:13):
And they're like there's auniversal canine in San Antonio.
And long story short to thatstory was they.
There was a company thatstarted universal canine out
there, gets in trouble federallylater on and that made a lot of
news that he was taking GImoney and doing really crazy
shit.
All the dogs got seized at thatproperty.

(31:33):
But it was funny because youknow, for me people had just the
one of the odds that I'm in SanAntonio with a previous company
named Universal Canine.
And then there's this othercompany called Universal Canine.
That's out there.
That ends up getting in allthis extra trouble later on.
But in that time of governmentcontracting to circle back to
that it really helped.
I ended up under AM Canine.

(31:54):
They were partnered behind thescenes with that company that
first hired me for the KennedySpace Center job.
So while in San Antonio Iswitched from working with AMK9
to then becoming the manager forRonco, and that was awkward.
I went from just being atrainer lackey to now being a
manager and then I was also theno guy.

(32:16):
I had to say no to a lot ofstuff to the other company
because I had to represent thenew company and in those days
contracting those that had beenthrough that.
It's a very incestual typebusiness, meaning that you could
be working for like I workedfor Ronco initially.
Well, then Ronco gets boughtout by another company.
So then it looks like I changedjobs, but I don't.
I'm still doing the same thing.

(32:37):
And then a few years later theyget bought out by another
company and it looks like Iswitched jobs again and I'm not
Meanwhile I'm still in SanAntonio and all the way to the
point where now it's 2000, Iwant to say it's 13.
And those the wars were drawingdown, those big companies owned
huge contracts.
They didn't care about dogsanymore.
I had built a whole notherkennel for them.

(32:57):
And it was a lot, of, a lot ofexperience in cutting my teeth
for what became later in lifereally important stuff to your
point you made earlier.
It was a lot of opportunities,a lot of unique things that
happened that I didn't want tomiss out.
I wanted to gain experiences.
So I finally get to you know,when I'm in Texas I'm working as

(33:17):
a reserve constable up in thatarea.
But I had, I got a dog.
So I was a canine handler, Iwas working my dog, I was able
to do things.
You know nothing fancy, nothingyou know over the top, but I
was.
I'd also finally accomplished agoal of wearing the badge.
Working the dog and being inTexas is very different than
being a cop in Florida.
Going through those experiencesand then that's where, when

(33:41):
that bigger company bought usout, they're like shut down the
dog stuff.
We don't care.
I'm in limbo for a year.
I end up linking up with a guynamed Jeff Franklin.
I had helped with him beforeyears earlier just doing a
couple of things.
And Jeff had the Navy SEALcontract and I happened to run
into him at a conference.
He was like this is like, let'ssay, it's June or something,

(34:01):
and at this time I've beenliving off of my severance
package from the company whenthey bought us out.
Jeff's like, you know, maybe inJune or sorry, maybe in August
I will have an opening, I'll letyou know.
And I was like, oh, okay, cool.

(34:23):
And at the craziest thing too,one of my best friends that was
a cop with in florida, in apopka, had gotten out.
I'd hired him in thecontracting world and I'd heard
through the grapevine and talkeda little bit.
He was going through the navyseal recruitment process, going
straight in.
So we talked that summer and hewas like, hey, if all goes well
, I'll graduate buds on august1st.
I'm sorry, no, august 10th.
Either way, in the beginning ofaugust he would graduate.
And I I was like, dude, I wantto be there for you.
And August 1st I get a phonecall from Jeff Franklin.

(34:45):
Hey, can you be in San Diego inabout a week?
I was like what?
So I was like what's the job?
He goes, you're going to bedown there with the seals.
It's probably only temporary,cameron.
I might only need you for acouple of months.
I was take anything right now.
I was at that point gettingbroke again.
Yeah, so I hop, I get some shittogether, hop on a plane, get
my ass to san diego.
And the coolest thing was Iended up being there just a few

(35:08):
days after my friend graduated,buds.
I'm now on a seal team basedoing that stuff, living down
the road from the base, and I itjust connected.
For me it was I didn't have awife, didn't have a girlfriend,
didn't have anything, whilethese other trainers all had
personal lives.
So I would spend all my timedown at the kennels doing stuff
and it helped me connect tothose guys who are operators.

(35:29):
They, they know their shit, butthey also respected my work
ethic at that time where I wasin a lot of extra effort just
because I had nothing else to doand I really loved doing it.
And the funny, funny part wasworking for bill heiser also
made you really hypersensitiveto.
You got to be working, got tobe moving.
You can't be sitting stillbecause you know old heiser,
they would drive around his golfcart be like hey, what are you
doing?

(35:49):
Why are you sitting around?
You know yell at you.
So I had that mentality justbecause I've been around bill
for so long.
So anyhow, it worked reallywell for me at that period of
time and then the next four anda half years.
It was a really cool experienceand at that time I'd been doing
the dog stuff.
So if I graduated my firstcanine school in 1995, fast

(36:10):
forward now it's 2000,.
We're getting close to 2018.
I had been with the SEAL teams,like I said, for a little bit
over four years and I was.
I get to the SEAL teams.
I should say I should go back acouple of years.
I get there and I feltconfident in what I was doing.
But when I would sit there andlisten to some of these meetings
and some of these things thatthey would wonder or ask can the
dogs do this, that or the other, it made me second guess.

(36:31):
A few things like did I trainthis right or could I train this
this way?
And that is where I realized Ineeded more than just my
personal experience.
I needed more than just what Ihad been regurgitating, what I
had learned.
And then I kind of I was.

(36:54):
I was never a great student inschool, I was like a typical C
student and school wasn't mything.
But I was super intrigued bythe science part of the dog
aspects.
It was just something that kindof connect.
I'm like I know there's morethan what I believe.
I know there's got to besomething that backs up what I
have experienced.
So I slowly found my way intothe science world and it all

(37:14):
started from a TV show called isyour dog a genius and it was
this guy named Brian hair andI'm watching him do some really
cool stuff and I'm going man,he's kind of highlighting some
issues I see in detection, likehandler influence and things
like that, just by doing thesesimple little brain game tests.
So, for whatever the reason was, I tried to search him on
Google.
I find his name, I shoot acouple of emails out to
different email addresses toguys named Dr Brian hair at Duke

(37:37):
university and, man, two dayslater I get a call or I guess I
get an email from him going hey,cameron, thanks for the email.
I would love to collaboratewith you in some way or help you
out with some of thesequestions that you have and that
led me into the whole caninecognition aspect, learning how
the dog's mind is, and howcritically important it was for

(38:00):
any type of training.
It turned out it wasn't how Iviewed it.
It wasn't just for detection,and even to this day I travel
all over the place teachingcanine cognition and so many
people think it's all related todetection work and it's not.
I mean, I think one of the bestprograms around that would help
people extremely is PSA.
If they understood some of thecognitive stuff in their dogs,

(38:23):
how their dog solves some ofthese problems.
Because, psa being so, there'sso many variables at play and so
many things that can change ona dime, based on conditions of
the trial itself, that if youare a trainer and you understand
some of the cognitive aspectsof your dog and how your dog
learns, you're going to make abig difference in what you do in
a sport like PSA or mondioringor police work or like what we

(38:46):
do, the Navy SEALs.
And it's not just a detectionthing.
But that period of time thatopened that door to me to go wow
, science and later on chemistryhad major impacts on what I
thought I knew, and there's aslide I shared on my lectures
that starts off with belief isthe death of reason, and those

(39:07):
that know Game of Thronesthere's a guy there that comes
from that.
But nothing is truer in thatstatement, because in our dog
world we will fight to the deathfor our beliefs, even in the
face of fact and reason,contrary to what we believe.
But we don't want to be wrong.
We don't want our sacred cow tonow no longer have value and

(39:32):
our egos will prevent us fromlooking at it from a different
perspective.
Perspective, and I really, onceI got into the photography and
videography like we're talkingabout earlier, I sat there and I
kind of laughed, because whenyou get around photographers or
you get around chefs or you getaround artists, they can compete

(39:52):
but they admire each other'swork, even if it's different.
If I'm a chef and I makespaghetti and this other guy
makes spaghetti, I can taste hisand totally appreciate it and
go, damn, how did you make that?
Oh, I make spaghetti.
And this other guy makesspaghetti, I can taste his and
totally appreciate it and go,damn, how did you make that?
Oh, I did this and this andthis.
And then they can eat mine andgo Ooh, you know, I like mine,
but yours just gives me adifferent, and it's so cool when
you see people from these otherprofessions look at what each

(40:17):
other creates.
They do so with admiration, andI'm not saying that those
worlds don't have theircompetitive side Of course they
do.
But I wish, or I hope, that thedog industry, the dog training
industry, starts taking thoselessons from the science world,
from the chef world, from theartistic world, and we

(40:38):
appreciate what these trainersor people can create with dogs
and not look at it as somethingthat is a detriment or an insult
to me.
Or I have to one-up them becauseI just don't like the way they
do it, or I spend more of mytime highlighting how bad that

(41:00):
system is or how bad thattrainer is, versus focusing on
my work and how can I make whatI do better?
Be inspired by your competitorto maybe take a few things from
them, right?
Or how can I look from afar andgo whoo, you know nothing for
nothing?
Look from afar and go whoo, youknow nothing for nothing.

(41:24):
As much as I may not like howthat is, or I may not agree with
that method, but it works forthem and what they do.
What can I take from that?
Or can that inspire me as atrainer and I can say that is a
good lesson for me tore-evaluate what I do, how I do
it or what can I do to be betterand connect with a dog more or
share information in a way thatit's received like that guy does

(41:47):
, or that guy so that's a longway off that high horse.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
You know, when you get up there, finally, you know
in particularly the, the folksthat are really really high on
the horse man, it takes a lot oftime to come down off that
thing.
Oh yeah, and you were so loudabout your way up there Couldn't
possibly be another option, noteven necessarily better, but

(42:12):
just different.
That could also work.
It's a funny thing, it's reallyreally funny, and I love the
collaboration piece and you know, when I look at that, that's
one of the things I've gottenfeedback from a lot of my
teammates who have gone todifferent courses or done online
stuff with you or been on sitewith you is the collaboration
between the people that arethere, the different types of

(42:33):
dogs, the different levelsyou'll have, you know, canine
teams and then you'll have ahandler who's just looking to
get into sport or you knowsomeone who's like you know what
?
I think I'd like to go this bedbug path with this dog and you
got into the room kind of acombination of different levels
and skill sets and everyone cameback, always saying how it was

(42:58):
unlike a lot of other thingsthey'd been to before in our
world, because it was superchill, like everyone was pressed
, like there was accountability.
You know there was reasoning,but it was a very inclusive and
collaborative environment,wanting to see the dogs get

(43:18):
better and, in turn, thehandlers get better, or really
the handlers get better so thatthe dogs could get better.
So the dogs could get betterbecause you know these dogs, you
know gosh, you know they, their, their abilities are damn near
limitless.
We're, we're the, we're thebreak, you know, on anything
that the dog's trying to do.
And so once again, we can get,get out of our own way.
You know, I remember when Ifirst started learning about uh,

(43:40):
tracking and trailing and um,you know the nose work piece,
before I had become a trainer.
You know, I'd always trained myown dogs and been around them
and stuff.
But I'd gotten into birdhunting and I was out we were
doing some upland hunting and Iwas watching my buddy's labs
work and I could have cared lessif I shot a bird, it didn't

(44:02):
matter to me.
I was enamored at watchingthese dogs just do what they
knew to do instinctually.
And then the training they goton top of it to really bring out
those skill sets.
I was just in awe.
It was amazing.
And so you know, I had a Roddyat the time.
She passed away maybe a yearafter I'd gotten into bird
hunting and we got this littlefield trial black lab.

(44:25):
You know hunt background.
Oh, I hated this dog.
I got exactly what I wanted,but I did not understand what I
was getting and you know herwild ass, she was everything I
wanted.
I just didn't realize it andyou know, we got on the same
page and everything was cool.
But same thing, we'd go out andhunt, we would do duck hunting,
upland, whatever, and just lovewatching the dog work.

(44:49):
And then I got exposed to totracking and trailing.
You know, jeff shuttlerprobably, I'm sure, yeah, and so
you know, kind of through theirprogram started learning about
tracking and trailing and thatjust blew my mind and you know,
being on the end of that longline and feeling the dog work
through that line, I have hairstanding up the back of my neck

(45:12):
just thinking about it right now.
But it's just such an amazingthing and so much of that
learning process, learning whatwe need to recognize and what
the animal is doing, not so muchas teaching the dog but
recognizing what the dog isdoing so that we can interpret
what's happening.
You're talking about when youwere hiding and the dog.

(45:33):
The handler would miss you, thedog kind of.
If he had picked up on a cue,the handler could and maybe
hesitated for a second, the dogprobably would have been on you
in seconds, but instead he'sguiding the dog along and the
dog's like well, you're the boss, let me go where you're going.
And so when you see those thingsit's so freaking incredible.

(45:55):
And we did a couple trackingseminars up here in Virginia
that we hosted and we had peoplefrom around the country come
and the people that really kindof just checked the ego and were
just open to learning, they hadthe best time and they left
with the most information andthey couldn't believe.
The most fun part to me wasbecause people brought all sorts

(46:17):
of different dogs, differentbreeds.
They just wanted to give it ashot and see.
I would have bet good money thatthese dogs would not have had
success.
But their handlers were so opento what was being taught, they
were so good at reading theirdog man.
At the end of the three, fourdays I mean, these little dogs
would out-track everybody thatyou would have put easy money on

(46:40):
.
And it typically wasn't thedog's fault, handler's fault,
while the one who should havebeen a rock star wasn't
succeeding, it was the ego ofthe handler that kind of held
him back.
So always an interesting thingthat I see when I see people
coming back from differentseminars and courses, but it was
always positive feedback comingback from yours.
I thought that was awesome.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah, and what you bring up was so obviously.
I came into this world in dogsfrom the military law
enforcement background and now,over the years, teaching,
because in my career I learnedthings from people outside of my
world.
The best learning I got wasfrom outside the institutional

(47:26):
side of military law enforcement, learning from people like
Michael Ellis and and other guyslike Ivan Belobanov and you can
name a bunch of differenttrainers, even trainers that
people never heard of before.
Some of the best things I gotcame from outside of my world.
Yeah, so when I started FordCanine, the goal was to have my

(47:48):
classes open to whoever wantedto learn detection.
Yeah, so, every class and it'sstill to this day you know now
that I'm up here in California,the we just had a class a few
months ago and it always startsoff the same way there's the
cops in the class, Then there'ssometimes conservation handlers
in the class, there's a couplemaybe search and rescue people
in the class, and then there'ssome civilians sprinkled in

(48:10):
there as well that are justdoing some form of detection,
whether it be for sport orthey're trying to find their way
in.
So, day one through three, thecamps are all kind of around you
like the cops hanging together,search and rescue hanging
together it's always kind ofseparated, but by day four,
because we create exercises andlearning where they have to

(48:32):
interact with each other, bythat middle to end of that first
week they're all kind ofsharing stories with each other
and they're sharing experiencesand then looking at it from
another lens that they had neverlooked at it from before.
And that's the beauty of thoseclasses.
And then you know, I obviouslyshare lots of stories and
experience from my side of theworld, which was the police,

(48:54):
military side.
But my trainer, Natalie, thatworks for me, she's civilian and
shares her experiences from thecivilian, sport and other forms
of detection aspect and she'sworked for me and trained cops
and has done a lot of otherthings too.
But the two of us as trainers,and now that Michael's part of
the classes, you've got MichaelEllis coming at it from not a

(49:15):
detection dog handler butclearly a skilled trainer and
training concepts or trainingconcepts across disciplines.
So there's a lot of stuff thathe shares that is super relevant
to detection, even thoughthat's not where it started from
Right.
When people show up to thisenvironment, by the end of week
two people are like man, thissucks.

(49:36):
I don't want it to end becauseyou know it's become a little
family and that's also I have tosay it's become a little family
and that's also I have to sayit's in part of to the
atmosphere of this place itself,because michael's school up
here I mean, he bought a oldschool- oh, okay there's a, we
have a cafe area and thenthere's a huge kitchen and then
some people can stay.
There's only a few spots left,but there we have rooms here on

(49:58):
campus, so some people will liveon campus while they're in
school, others obviously stayingat hotels.
But what always happens is,when training is done for the
day, the people that are stayinghere, along with others, even
though they're not staying onsite all hang out and use the
indoor training room to go worktheir dogs, share stories,
someone's cooking in the kitchenarea and, before they know it,

(50:19):
it's this atmosphere and what'sgreat about the length of class,
because michael used to do hisfor like 15 weeks long and he
would share stories of likeweeks one through three.
Everybody loved each other.
Weeks three through about nine,everybody had camped up and
didn't like each other and thenall of a sudden, around week
yeah, I think it was, like hesaid, 12 they realized there's
like two or three weeks left.
They're all lovey-dovey againbecause they know it's ending.

(50:41):
But our two-week class, it's theperfect time because there's
only a few days where people arejust getting to know each other
.
Yeah, the rest of the time isthe mutual appreciation and
getting to look at detectionspecifically from a different
lens from what they were used torealizing.
The bigger picture is they allshare the same issues.

(51:04):
Didn't matter if it was asearch and rescue handler or a
cop or a bed bug detectionhandler.
They all share a lot of the samestruggles yeah detection and
that's reading your dogindication how to work a certain
area.
What's the best way?
Is there a certain methodbetter than this and why should
I search this way and not thisway?
But when they're around eachother, it gives them the oh now

(51:29):
stuff you can't get from socialmedia right and again back to
that point way earlier we talkedabout.
When you're on social media,you argue points like crazy,
even to the point like youmentioned.
I remember and it's still a verycontested thing tracking or
trailing.
And I mean I remember years agothis is, like I said, saying
back in my cop days me and mybest friend would argue because

(51:52):
we had switched from germanshepherds to malinois in our
career and we were working thesetype of dogs and we realized
they needed different things andwe would get these tracking,
trailing arguments and finallyturn the light on in my head and
my friend goes I don't give afuck what you call it, call it
tracking, call it trailing,whatever.
All I care about is the resultof finding the person in that

(52:13):
space and I'm going to let mydog use whatever means it.
It learns to be successful atfinding a person.
So, that means it's heads up andit can find the person great if
it puts his head no, his nosedown the ground and does that
great.
I have one job, if you arewithin my search area, that my
dog can find you, that's rightwho am I to say which one is

(52:34):
better than the other one?
if this dog is successful atfinding you now, it doesn't mean
that there aren't good, soundways to look at how you approach
a certain type of searchenvironment.
So, are we in a urbanenvironment, are we in a really
outdoor, rural environment?
And the bigger thing is it'sexposing the dog, how to be

(52:58):
successful at locating the humantarget in that space.
And if this dog naturally issuccessful, heads up, boom,
great.
If this dog heads down, okay,great.
We again, dog trainers, are dogtrainers.
We like to camp up, and I'm thegroup.
I like taking a spray bottleand spraying water down pavement

(53:21):
.
That works for me, but the waythey do it is this is the only
way to do it Right.
Or I have to stomp my feet onthe ground and I have to spit
and put my.
You know all the differentthings, and then we fight so
vigorously for that particularmethod versus going.
I think they all work.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
It's what works for your dog, but be willing to look
at all those tools for thetoolbox versus excluding them
simply because it goes againstwhat maybe you were first taught
or it goes against yourphilosophy at the time.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
Yeah, it's so true.
And the limitations that youput on the dog that is in your
possession at that time.
So, yeah, this dog may work forincredibly well, and aren't you
fortunate.
But you get that different dognext round and that dog that's
not its natural abilities comingthrough.

(54:20):
It doesn't pick up on that way.
What are you and you?
You refuse to look at any othertools or opportunities to help
to pull it out of the dog.
And you know for years, youknow off leash canine training.
You know top e-collar trainersin the country.
I'm not saying there aren'tother ways to train dogs.
I'm saying for us and how wetrain the dogs we work with

(54:44):
where we expect them to be at,99% of the dogs that we work
with, this is a great waybecause of how we use the tool.
My saying is the only way touse tool?
Absolutely not.
So I'm saying it's the onlytool out there.
Never said that.
A lot of great tools out therefor us.
So it's what we do.
It's like well, josh, I've hadpeople come through on teams.

(55:05):
Well, I want to train it allthis way.
Like you can do that.
You absolutely can do that andyou'll probably do really,
really well with it.
You're just not going to dothat here because that's not
what we do as a part of how wedo this, and so I'm not saying
you can't, I'm just saying youcan't hear because of something
that we do from a largerperspective and continuity, and
so, but still being open to whatare those tools and you know,

(55:29):
with us it's always been animportant thing and nick has
done a really good job too ofleading the way with this.
But hey, you know there's placesin europe we can't use
e-collars anymore.
What if that happened here?
And they're like, hey, are youjust an e-collar trainer or are
you a great dog trainer?
Because if you're a great dogtrainer, you're.
You have the knowledge, youhave the abilities, you know how
to use multiple tools, you knowhow to read an animal, you know

(55:50):
how to motivate an unmotivateddog.
You know, being the great dogtrainer has very little to do
with the tool at hand.
And that that's the part whereI've always talked about I'm
like guys, like I think if youwere the most effective trainer
with an e-collar right how weuse it, how I use it, that tool

(56:12):
for me I can have the happiest,most motivated, ready to rock
and roll dog.
I don't need to use a bunch ofother tools and stuff.
If you lean in a bunch of toolsin combination and that's what,
for you, works and you, that'show you develop a dog and that
works for you.
Awesome, for me, this is how Ido it and we're going to run
with.
I'm not saying don't do it thatway and you can't do it that way

(56:33):
, and I'm not saying that won'twork.
I'm saying for me, these are mytools lined up, how I like to
apply them and use it.
But I still got to know how touse this.
I still got to know about that.
I still want to learn whyyou're doing it that way, but
not in attack mode.
Hey, dummy, why are you doingit that way?
Just talk to me about that.
What's the point?
Walk me through the process ofwhy you're doing it that way,

(56:56):
and then I'm going to share withyou the process of why I do it
my way.
And then I always tend to findout.
We could probably combine thesea little bit, or combine that
mentality a little bit.
Or you know, hey, I saw thiswith a dog similar personality,
similar background.
What I was doing wasn't working, but I saw a guy pull out these
resources, this tools, thisphilosophy got to be open.

(57:17):
There isn't one damn way.
And it's very dishearteningwhen you see the people that the
only side of the argument theywant to be on is their side of
the argument Correct, becauseonly one who loses in that is
whatever dogs end up in thatperson's possession.
Yep, right, like it's not goingto hurt my feelings, you don't
agree with me, no problem.
But if we open our minds alittle bit, could we be better

(57:40):
for the dogs?
And that's the part where Ireally challenge people to like
we, we started hosting cameron.
Um, oh, just last week actually.
Um, I'm doing a monthly here invirginia and I'm doing one in
dallas, also monthly.
But dog trainers, dog andowners, I'm like, hey, lunch on
me, let's hang out for 90minutes and just talk shop, talk

(58:02):
industry.
What are we seeing?
What's going on?
What are you struggling with?
Right, like I'm so over thepolarity of the industry.
It's sick and I was like I'llbe the one to say, hey, we're
better together for sure youknow and like what are, what are
things?
and there's a lot of folks outthere that are struggling right
now and you know, I feel veryfortunate that you know.

(58:25):
Knock on wood, you know we'rewe're not and we're staying busy
and we've got a large team wecontinue to recruit.
I'm not saying we're doingeverything right, but there are
some things that we're doingright.
I know there's a lot of thingswe do differently than a lot of
people and at this point in thecareer, it's not about I need
you to do worse so I can dobetter.
There's plenty of dogs outthere to help, you know, and

(58:47):
it's like, if I can help you dobetter, that's going to benefit
more families, more dogs.
If there's things that you cando to help me do better, well,
that's going to benefit morefamilies, more dogs and a more
collab.
That was kind of my thing.
Going into 2024 iscollaboration and um.
I'm not surprised by the lackof openness that we've run into.

(59:07):
Sure, I'm really, really, uh,motivated by the great
conversations I've been havingwith people that we probably
never would have done it yeahand people are just coming and
sitting down and we're justhaving conversations and some
friendships are forming.
I'm excited to see what happenswith the relationships and I'm
most excited to see how itbenefits the dogs.
Yep, because we're blessed tohave a career and a living

(59:32):
because of these animals.
Why would we limit?
You know putting their best,you know our best foot forward,
you know, for the dogs.
So I don't know what.
What's next for Ford canine man?

Speaker 2 (59:44):
Well, it's funny I'll continue your point for a
second and it reminded me of mytime working with Jeff and Cobra
canine and being in that partof that seal team stuff it was.
It was a couple of things.
So for your first point beingwhat do I do as a trainer if
whatever tool I like or I'musing is not available, taken
away, whatever?
And in that special forcescommunity it is they're taught

(01:00:08):
multiple skills because thingsbreak, fall apart, fail whatever
.
So one of the lessons is canyou be diverse in what you're
doing to get the job done?
And so that was one of thethings you know.
I kind of knew, but it reallyresonated even more.
Second part of that is to yourpoint of like, hey, this is the
way the company does it.
I understand, I like that youlook at things differently.

(01:00:28):
That was a lot of mine andJeff's relationship.
We were probably really close,in agreement in a lot of things,
but we'd also have divergingpoints.
And what was so good aboutworking with him?
Some of our best times togetherwere hanging out, sometimes in
a car, talking some of theseideas out, and he would push me
and be like well, why do youthink this and why do you think

(01:00:50):
that?
Or explain it to me so Iunderstand how you're thinking
about this.
And many times he'd be like youknow what.
That's a good point, but we'renot going to do that right now.
And his point being iscontinuity of his contract
jeff's contract, not cameron'scontract correct and he had to
have uniformity across coasts.

(01:01:11):
He had to have the east coastof the west coast basically be
doing the same thing.
Yep, and in the end it's kindof what cost me the job, because
in and though he agreed inprinciple, like so what for me
at the end was I fought reallyhard to do.
We had this army guy come in andhe viewed like his mission and
way he wanted to do some thingswas very different than what the

(01:01:32):
seal team guys, includingmyself, agreed with, kind of
allocating time and resources tostuff that wasn't as critically
important as other areas.
And I fought for the point ofwhat the team guys wanted a lot
of times and we would just gothat way and Jeff was great with
cause.
He understood where we werecoming from.
But at the end of the day, he'sa contract holder and every
year for us every right aroundSeptember, october, end of

(01:01:55):
September, beginning of October,was when our contracts got
renewed and it was I think itwas September 27th.
I just graduated SEAL Team 3 andJeff was there and we hand out
certificates and walk outsideand he's like, hey, so you're
gonna need to pack up your stuff, they're not gonna renew your
contract.
And I was like what?
So he shows me this email andbasically they're going after
him because he wasn'tcontrolling or I wasn't

(01:02:18):
following the rules or what thatmajor at that time wanted from
the army.
And Jeff was like, hey, look,you know I'm not saying I don't
agree with what your goals wereor what the team guys wanted,
but I can promise you you arenot going to cost me this
contract.
And it's at that point now wherethey have pushed that they want
change and they're creatingthis new rule in a sense this

(01:02:40):
one guy was trying to do.
It was a way to push out, getnew blood in, push out.
Those of us had been therelonger.
Yeah, I say push out.
It was just we had reached thatatmosphere at that time, had a
little more contentiousrelationship, because there was
this army guy who was theproject manager of the navy seal
program and that alone createdsome unique.

(01:03:01):
Yeah, that's interesting to me,but the bigger picture was that
I didn't fully appreciate ortake in consideration was, yes,
it was a good effort to takecare of the guys and want to do
what the mission really was, butI still worked for somebody.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
Yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
I still worked for somebody.
I still worked for Jeff, whohad a contract to work for the
Navy, and though we had lots oflatitude and Jeff was really
good about letting some of ustrainers I'll say this, for at
least for me he was really goodabout letting me kind of do what
I wanted to do as long as Istayed within those bumpers, and
that was a very importantlesson that I had to go through

(01:03:41):
to now share that with others inthe future.
Like, hey, I love that you'recreative as a trainer, I love
that you're willing to do thesethings.
I really want to, you know,support your efforts to learn
more, but under thiscircumstance or under if you
work for an agency, you work fora company.
There's a reason why we have itthis way and I know you may not
agree with all of the things.

(01:04:02):
I support you learning and Iwant you to grow, but we do have
some rules that we need toadhere to and follow, at least
if you want to keep staying here, if you want to be Mr
Independent or Mrs Independentand go do your thing.
Well, it might come at a cost,and for me it came at a cost

(01:04:26):
later on and it turns out it wasthe best thing that ever
happened, because at the time Iwas already secretly I won't say
secretly, it wasn't a secretbut I had accomplished a lot in
that time and I was ready tomove on and I was looking at
options.
I knew I wasn't going to staythere much, much longer, but I
didn't get to leave on my terms.
And that sometimes in life whenyou, it's easier to leave when
it's your choice, but whensomeone says hey, pack your shit

(01:04:48):
, get out, you got to go, that'sthat sucks.
But in the end it made mebetter and I'm older, wiser,
more appreciative of thoselessons that I learned.
So don't take those things whenyou're a trainer, when someone
you feel confined by the rulesof who you're working for or
whatever use as a lesson and dowhat they tell you to do.

(01:05:10):
But if you reach a point whereit's time to grow, then move on.
But if you don't and you try toforce your way through their
system, you're gonna be out andit's not nearly as beneficial as
follow the rules grow.
When you're ready, move on.
And because, like you said, ourbiggest picture is we can all
respect each other's points ofview versus what's the hardest

(01:05:33):
thing is when someone holds youdown.
That's where a lot ofdisgruntled people come from, is
when they're forced into.
This is the way, or they'reconstantly shut down.
And again, that's where, for me, and with Jeff specifically,
jeff could have told me and I'vewatched him do that to other
people no, this is the fuckingway we're doing it.
Shut up and do it this way.

(01:05:53):
He never treated me like that.
He treated me with that greatmutual respect of like.
Okay, I'm curious, why do youbelieve it this way?
Or why do you listen and talkme through it?
And, like I said, that was fortrainers, just like what you're
talking about, what you do,coming together collectively,
pushing the egos aside andsaying let's talk about this
stuff.

(01:06:13):
That's right now.
I don't feel it the way you do,but it's like, actually, the
bigger example in your guy'sworld is the force free versus
punishment.
Right, that's one of your guys.
Oh yeah, that's a huge otheringargument.
Everybody has to be on one sideor the other.
There's these huge fightsacross the internet and social
media and everything else versusgoing.

(01:06:33):
You know what.
There's truths to both sides.
Yep, the one side who's forcefree has seen.
There's been individuals who'veseen really abusive style
training and they don't want tosee dogs go through that and
none of us do.
There's the other side thatsays, okay, force-free, show me
with this dog how you would dothat.

(01:06:55):
And there's versus theconversation that we can have.
We can just say if we'rewilling to set the egos aside,
because I'm all for if someonecan show me something new and I
can be better from it.
Man, I'm all ears.
But if I come into theconversation with my ears off
and my mouth open, we're screwedfrom the beginning.
So, and if I have to yell, youcan't hear me.

(01:07:19):
And that's one of the otherlessons I've learned in life as
a dog trainer.
If I have to raise my and Ihave, I've been that guy I'm
still working on how to deliverbecause there's still a lot of
military cop in me.
At times my trainer laughs herass off when she sees something
and my glasses go flying off myhead and I'm like you know, I go
into these modes.
But she calls she jokes aroundthose that watch the Office.

(01:07:40):
She calls oh, here comes prison, mike.
You know I put my blue bandanaon.
I'm like oh, you're to scareyou straight, you know.
But, and I've and I've learnedthat over the years is to take
it in and try to explain andhave a two way conversation on
how to solve whatever we'redoing with the dogs, and that

(01:08:01):
has been.
It's a huge blessing to be ableto, because that's the better.
No matter what on either sideof the argument is the
betterment for the dog.

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
And that's where I think a lot of those things get
missed is because we putourselves in front of the dog
versus what works best for thedog, even though we all say,
well, I'm doing this for the dog, yeah.
Versus what works best for thedog, even though we all say,
well, I'm doing this for the dog, I put my stance as the number
one thing.
I'm inhibiting on what could bebest for the dog.
Just like back to that tracking, trailing argument I had with
my friend.
So, but circling back to whatyou said, what's up ahead for
4K9.
So we have our next trainerschool in June.

(01:08:37):
I still you know my goal.
Goal now by moving toCalifornia was to be traveling
less.
The past couple of years I'vebeen on the road 40 something
weeks of the year.
This year it's a little less,but I'm off to the UK next.
We are developing a ton of stuffonline because that's where
it's going these days, sothere's already lots of

(01:08:57):
resources.
I do webinars all the time.
So if people want to go toafford caninecom, there, I
believe there's already lots ofresources.
I do webinars all the time.
So if people want to go toafford caninecom, uh, there, I
believe there's already 40something webinars on there.
I got a webinar on this.
I don't know when this podcastcomes out, but we're having a
webinar in a couple of days andthere's there's just lots of
resources.
I just tell people to go to ourwebsite, follow social media.
I do lots of like little brainteaser or conversation starters,

(01:09:17):
as we're talking here about dogtraining and detection ideas,
and my whole goal is just toshare, from my perspectives,
things that could be eitherthought provoking or different
perspectives, because, lookingat it from a different lens.
If I can get out of one lensand look at it from another lens
, I learned something.
I learned what not to do.
I may learn what I like evenbetter than what I was doing.

(01:09:38):
So that's the philosophy or theethos for what I do.
A lot now is the sharing of theideas.
You know the good, the bad, theugly, and I don't have to agree
with a lot of things, but I canalso say there's merit to
things.
Yeah, and what works for me maynot work specifically for that
dog team, and I want you toembrace that.
You know you don't have to.
I don't want people to alsoblindly follow me.
I want to look at it withperspective and say, man, that

(01:10:02):
was really good, but why did youdo it like this?
I talked to so-and-so and theydo it this way.
I actually enjoy thoseconversations.
They're not offensive to me atall.
I'll say you know what you knowlike.
That trainer is extremelyskilled at what they do and it
works really well for them.
But here's pros and here's consand here's what I do.
Here's my pros and here's mycons, and you can look at it and

(01:10:23):
figure out what works best foryou.
So that's the main philosophy,what I do on social media and
YouTube and obviously thepodcast and things like that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
I love that because if there weren't people out
there willing to shareinformation, willing to teach
those who are interested inlearning, like I didn't know,
this was a career path for me.
I was.
I was 35 when I opened my firstlocation.

(01:10:48):
You know I backgrounds financeand real estate and I was
running a really big church atthe time, actually, when I
started my off, my first offleash location, and I had no
clue that people did this formoney yeah you know I'm like
hold on, you train dogs and you,you can pay your bills too.
Yeah, yeah, I think you can signme up for that.

(01:11:11):
You know I like that and littlecould I have imagined what we
would build.
You know, fast forward, 10years and impact.
And you know, all thanks andrecognition to my, my staff, my
teams.
You know they, they, they'rethe ones that are in it and
doing it every day and I'm sothankful for them and the hard
work that they do.
But you know now my mindset islike okay, who else can we teach

(01:11:35):
to do this?
Who?
Who?
You know, when I hire, you knowI care less.
I don't care what your dogbackground is, I don't even
really, if I see a dogbackground half time, I'm
skipping over it.
You know, because I and anybodywho you can ask anybody on my
team.
What's the first thing you know?
Josh said to you he's like youneed to be a good human being,

(01:11:56):
you need to be coachable, youneed to be passionate about dogs
.
If you're coachable, a goodhuman, to be passionate about
dogs, if you're coachable, agood human being, and passionate
about dogs, fairly quickly Ican make you a pretty good dog
trainer Over time, you know, youcan become remarkable, you know
.
But if you're a shitbag person,you're not going to care for
the dogs the way we require dogsto be cared for.
You're not going to operate witha common sense standpoint of

(01:12:19):
the dog's health and well-beingthe number one priority.
If you're not coachable, you'regonna hate working for us or
anybody in this industry,because all dog training is is
learning that dog's eithercoaching you on something or
somebody else is coaching you.
So if you don't like to becoached, you're gonna hate this
industry.
Yeah, you know, and you need tobe passionate about dogs

(01:12:41):
because the fourth time in a daywhere it shits on itself, you
know in that crate and you'reclimbing in there to clean it
out.
You really need to bepassionate about dogs.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
Oh, yes, and you're highlighting one of the shifts
that I made recently, which wasI spent many years bringing the
science world into dogs and dogslike that, years bringing the
science world into dogs and dogslike that.
But now this year, my 2024 goalwas to enhance and focus on the
relationship aspect of human todog.
And it all sparked because I'mup here in northern california

(01:13:11):
where our homeless populationcan be quite extensive.
But I was sitting there intraffic one day and I'm watching
this guy with his dog no leashwalking through traffic with his
bicycle and that's when we goand buy a bicycle next to him
and going through cars and I'mlike that guy's never been
through a board and train, thatguy's never been through, he's
never gone through any extensiveeducation of dogs per se, but

(01:13:35):
damn, he's doing real worldstuff that people aren't doing
and it stems from hisrelationship with his dog.
So that inspired me to say youknow, one of the biggest things
that I see people struggle within the detection side of things,
and you mentioned in thetracking is our ability to read

(01:13:55):
our dog, to read when the dog istelling me something that stems
from our relationship, andsometimes someone can have an
amazing relationship with theirdog, but they don't know some of
those intimate details abouttheir dog or they've let a
training thing influence howthey viewed it, versus going
with their instinct of whattheir dog's telling them.

(01:14:15):
And there's no perfect, so Ihave to tell them at first
you're going to get it wrong.
Still, no matter how good yourrelationship is, you might read
your dog wrong.
So don't don't worry about that.
There's no perfect.
But if we have a betterrelationship with our dog, we
are fulfilling needs with ourdog, we can gain.
We can gain so much and do somany things that we didn't think
were possible without some toolor reinforcer one way or the

(01:14:38):
other.
If I have a good relationshipand I'm doing the things that
fulfill the dog, in which returna lot of times, should fulfill
me too.
Yeah, yeah, so much I can do.
Outside of all the arguments wedo in training, just going down
to having the core relationshipaspect of human to dog will get
you so far, because you alreadyknow this the business that

(01:15:01):
you're in the main, reason whypeople bring dogs for training
is because their lives are toobusy.
They don't have, they're notable to invest, so they're
looking for a fix and I knowbecause I know Nick and I know
you guys you have to as part ofyour whole training thing is the
other component.
You guys reach it.
You know reach out to them onis go do things with your dog.

(01:15:22):
Go by being active and doingthese things, a lot of these
other problems that they'recurrently reaching out to you
for go away simply because ofthis, which is why you know a
whole reason why a lot of theoff-leash canine trainers came
to us was because when we taughtthem some of the scent and odor
games, gave them a tool toshare with a client of.

(01:15:42):
Here's an activity you can do athome, you can do in a park, you
can do in a lot of places, butit occupies your dog's brain, it
satisfies internal needs and itbuilds a better relationship
and it's just a simple game ofhide and seek and detection with
dogs and that's one of thosethings that builds relationships
.

Speaker 1 (01:15:59):
So yeah, the amount of times owners will say well,
josh, my dog's gonna come staywith you for a couple weeks.
You know, it only does thisbehavior at home, and I was like
, well, here's the thing, thisis what I'm gonna tell you.
I probably won't see 70 of thenegative behaviors while your
dog's with me, yeah, and like,well, how are you gonna address
it?
I'm like magic.
Yeah, right, that Magic.

(01:16:20):
You know, most of theseproblems stem from one or two
larger problems, and once thoseare dealt with, the other crap
just falls off to the wayside.
Plus, I'm going to equip you,though, to understand how to
communicate with your dog in away that, let's say, some
off-the-wall behavior does popup.
You're going to be able to shutthat down right away in a way

(01:16:41):
that the dog understands.
Y'all don't need to sit downand talk about it when you, when
you, when you guide that dog onwhat's appropriate and what's
not.
It's done, yep, because we'veaddressed the bigger issues.
I'm not going to see him try toeat rocks.
Probably he's probably notgoing to lunge and bark at all.
The dogs that walk by us.
Yep, he's probably not going topee in my house.

(01:17:03):
Yep, he's probably not going todo all these things.
Well, how do you fix it?
Like, trust me, and they do.
I'm like, trust the, the tensof thousands of videos and
testimonials and reviews thatyou see, I'm like it, just it
has.
It has nothing to do withchewing the rocks.
Chewing the rocks isn't theproblem, no, right and so.
But that's their reality,that's the owner's reality, and

(01:17:24):
you know, and I always tell themlike, hey, look, this is your
specific stressor, that's fine,it is unique to you.
I'm not trying to dismiss thatbecause it is your specific,
unique situation, but thesethings are really a part of one,
two, three other things that wedeal with on a daily basis, non
nonstop, and we're going to beable to address it.
And to your point earlier, talkabout the force free part, which

(01:17:45):
is always one of my favoritethings.
You know there's a local vethere who, just God, she hates me
, she hates me, she hates me andlike I don't know if she gives
commission for them at the frontdesk to just talk shit about me
and our business and stuff.
But we had a mutual client anda difficult client, difficult
dog.
No scenario where a client wasgoing to do a great job with

(01:18:09):
that dog moving forward.
Just one of those tough deals,right?
And anyway, I end up agreeingto go and meet with the client
and the vet, because this is hervet, of course, right, so you
know, know, we're both localbusinesses here.
I want to be professional.
Sure, I'll do a sit down withyou.
Oh my gosh, she's giving me allthese books about force free.
She's like I really just thinkyou expand your mind on training

(01:18:31):
what actually works with thedogs, josh, and you know it was
so disrespectful how she wentabout it.
But the thing that's crazy tome is this particular place.
I know for a fact a half adozen dogs who did not get put
to sleep based on theirrecommendation, because they
brought those dogs.
The owner made the decision tohave their dog trained with us.

(01:18:54):
Their recommendation was thisdog should be put down yeah,
yeah.
You know, and I'm like that'ssix lives.
These are six dogs that in noway, shape or form, needed to be
put down, euthanized.
I mean, these are happy dogs,good contributing members of the
family, they're great with thekids, they're great with.

(01:19:15):
I'm never going to put a dog ina situation that isn't good for
it.
If I've got a I've had theseconversations, you know where
it's like hey, josh, we'rehaving a baby.
We got a second dog.
This is a situation.
What's going on?
We've gone through the processand at the end of the day, I
said hey, if it's me, you guys,my kids aren't going to be
around this dog.
So, before baby gets here, youmight want to look to make a
change.

(01:19:35):
Right, either get that dog intothe appropriate home or
something.
I'm always going to put thedog's best interest first and it
just bothers me so much whenpeople run at it for such a
black and white context andbecause if you do that, that is
going to hurt the dogs.
When you do that, that is goingto set someone up for it.
Well, this dog, josh, you haveit in a crate and this dog does

(01:19:59):
not want to go into a crate.
Clearly, don't make that dog gointo a crate.
The dog said, hey, I don't wantto go in the crate.
Like, what are you talkingabout?
I had the dog in a crate in twominutes and the dog's not
stressed, the dog is relaxed.
I require the dogs to be crated.
If we're going to transport themin vehicles, we don't allow the
dogs to be loose.
Well, josh, I don't want.
My vet said that we need tosign a waiver so that because

(01:20:22):
the dog just doesn't like to goin the crate and we're not going
to make it, and that's anargument of that force-free side
If the dog doesn't want to, I'mlike shit.
If I would have done that withmy son when he was two, logan,
how far would that have gotten?
You didn't want to versus whatyou ended up having to do,

(01:20:43):
whether you wanted to or not.

Speaker 2 (01:20:44):
I don't remember asking you what you wanted to do
.
You know it's funny.
You know there was a saying Iused to use when, back when I
did obedience, years and yearsago, and I would tell people
okay.
So let's look at it in a humanperspective.
First, what you're trying tobring to me isn't you're saying
that you have an alcoholic hereand you want this alcoholic to
get help.
So You're saying that you havean alcoholic here and you want
this alcoholic to get help.
So you're bringing the dog toAlcoholics Anonymous.
This is my place, so my placeis alcohol free.

(01:21:06):
We have rules, we have someguidelines, we have procedures,
but no matter what I do, if Ilet the dog, when the dog leaves
me and it goes back to yourhouse, which is the bar, and you
have bottles of Jack Daniels onthe counter, you have beer cans
open and ready.
Your dog and you have bottlesof Jack Daniels on the counter,
you have beer cans open andready your dog is going to
become an alcoholic again, Ipromise you.
So this means you need to makesome changes and you need to put

(01:21:29):
the alcohol away.
You have to admit that maybesome of the things that are
happening are through yourenabling of your alcoholic dog.
This is why some of the issuesexist, because, just like to the
point you made with you, a lotof these things won't happen.
And it's not because you'rebeating the dog, it's not
because you.
You just establish rules.

(01:21:50):
And you can look at it fromthis perspective.
If let's just take thestatement of well nature, it
takes care of things right.
Or, and if I'm force free, andif I, and let's just let's'm
force-free and let's move thegoalposts all the way out to the
end, let's treat to where someof the arguments could go.
Doing anything with dogs is justwrong.
We should let dogs be dogs.

(01:22:11):
Cool, got it?
I'm with you, okay?
So if you put packs of dogstogether and as a cop, I would
see packs of dogs roaming aroundcities all the time Absolutely
of dogs together.
And as a cop, I would see packsof dogs roaming around cities
all the time.
Absolutely, they have ruleswithin their little structure so
weird they will use socialpressure.
They will even bite at eachother.

(01:22:32):
They will have full-blownfights.
They use some level ofconsequence that is not positive
.
It's a negative consequence toestablish what and how this
group works together.
So, taking the force-freeargument all the way to its
maximum effort, which means wedon't do it.
Humans should not own dogs.

(01:22:54):
Humans, we should let dogs befree.
They're creatures of the world.
Let them be them, okay.
And if we look at them fromthat perspective, they do the
things that you're saying weshouldn't do.
Now are there abusivetechniques humans use?
Of course, Absolutely.
There's no doubt about it.
I don't argue that point at all.

(01:23:15):
We humans are sometimes theworst when it comes to how we
treat each other, how we treatanimals.
But we can't throw the baby outwith the bathwater and say,
because humans are dumb and makemistakes and do things, I
wouldn't be here right now.
I mean, I made so many mistakesin my life If I was treated in

(01:23:41):
a certain way and held back andbeat and everything else I
wouldn't exist.
So but if I had which I did Ihad consequences that taught me
things.
Consequences were positive andconsequences had some negative
aspects, but all of those thingshelped me become well-rounded,
helped me understand that inlife, no matter what we are,
there are rules that exist.
I can't just go do whatever Iwant to go do whenever I want to
go do it, because there couldbe consequences to that.

(01:24:04):
And that's something that Ithink, if we pull back
perspective and look at it fromhey, all we want is a good
relationship with our dogs andthere's multiple ways to share
communication and rules andcertain dogs, just like humans,
certain dogs there's a wire notconnecting correctly, no matter
what we do, and we have to findways to work with that type of

(01:24:27):
dog, just like as humans, lifeis life.
There are individuals who havestruggles and we've had to find
ways to connect and communicateand help them, and there was
good ways and bad ways.
If you look at the way weprobably treated people with
certain types of conditions inthe fifties, we would never
dream of doing that today.
We've learned more.

(01:24:48):
That's the same thing with dogsand I know we all come from it
from the same perspective, whichis, like I said earlier, we all
want what's best for our dogsor dogs in general.
We don't have to agreecompletely, but we can't push
the goalposts so far out thatit's no longer reasonable
anymore.
As we get closer, then it's likewell, no, we're taking that
away.
No, well, let's do this, let'sdo this.
And all I care about truly isif I can get somebody, let me

(01:25:12):
bring the dog to you and youshow me, using your technique,
because all actions speak waylouder than words.
So I pick the dog with whateverthing it has and you, through
your method, whatever it is,show me it works, and it's not
gonna include medication, it'snot gonna include euthanasia.

(01:25:32):
Right, show me, cause I'm allabout taking something to my
toolbox If you can show mesomething that works really well
, hell yeah, I'm going to takethat method.
I'm going to walk away with itand be super happy that you
showed me something, and I'mgoing to give you all the credit
in the world too.
Look, joe Blow, who uses thistype of methodology, showed me

(01:25:53):
this and dude.
It worked and I'm happy to useit.
In any case, I can.
Yeah, also, jane Blow over hereshowed me something that also
worked and that might be usefulfor that type of dog.
So that's where it's got to be,instead of those othering
aspects.

Speaker 1 (01:26:08):
But it's so funny too , and then we'll wrap up.
I'm beating you up on time, I'msorry.
You know it's the extreme right, it's the extreme.
Whether it's humans and theextremist views on anything,
it's always the extreme part ofit right.
And I would argue anything atits extreme is probably

(01:26:32):
unhealthy, you know, and so it'slike.
but everybody wants to arguebased on the extreme
implementation of a tool, aproblem voices are on the
extreme sides right, you know,whereas everybody most people
are chilling in the middle justdoing life and wondering, like,
what's the fucking like?
Why is everybody freaking outlike?

Speaker 2 (01:26:54):
you said, the middle section was where most people
lie, where they see there'struths to the both sides, but
they're not the loudest.
The loudest come from the onesat the polar end on each side
and they're advocating for theirpoint.
And, like I said, I respectpoints from both sides, but I
also understand that neitherextreme is correct either, and I

(01:27:19):
, through a lot of years ofdoing this, now know that
there's many ways to figure thisout.
But if I can, first andforemost, give the dog a good
life and save the dog's life,yeah, then that's the most
important thing.
I'm not saying there isn't acase where something could be.
I mean, I actually we had a dogthat was had a brain disease.

(01:27:39):
In the brain disease we had toeuthanize.
It was that was.
It was.
No, it was not right to keepthe dog alive for miles to see
it, because the dog wasstruggling really hard.
Progressively, each day wasbecoming more aggressive and
things were happening.
And then, through necropsy, wefound out why.
I mean, it beat me up to haveto struggle with what is wrong

(01:28:00):
with this dog.
What is happening Each day isworse and worse and worse.
And so when they did thenecropsy, lo and behold, there
was actually something wrong inthe frontal lobe of the brain.
I forget exactly, it's been anumber of years now, but that so
it turned out.
We made the better decisionbecause the dog was truly
suffering mentally.
But there are those cases, so Iget that.
But suffering mentally, butit's, there, are those there's.

(01:28:26):
There are those cases, so I getthat.
But there's a lot of knee jerkreactions Sometimes.
I think even to bring up Ivanagain, he's he's recently shared
this dog that was consideredunsavable kind of thing.
He took it and did a lot ofrehab with it and he talks about
and I talked to him personallyrecently about that.
I was like so how'd that dog do?
What'd you guys get workthrough that?
And he's like the first thing Ihad to do is take it off some
of the meds it was on becausethe meds had made the dog like a
, like just veg out.
Um, and he he said it was along process.

(01:28:47):
It's been quite there.
It's one of the mostchallenging things he's gone
through as a trainer.
But he slowly worked his waythrough figuring out how to
communicate to this dog so itcould chill out watching tv with
him and his wife, it could playwith a ball.
He shows a video.
This dog like licking the floorincessantly because that was
just one of the ocd thing, likethis dog would just, and he just

(01:29:09):
took time to work through itand there wasn't any major
compulsion, there wasn't onlyforce free.
He had to find things thatcreated structure for the dog
and then, as the dog had timeand I truly think, back to
relationship aspect this dogfinally got a relationship with
somebody who knew how tocommunicate to a dog, not just
the average pet owner, whichunfortunately, a dog like this

(01:29:32):
did need experience, and itworked, you know.
And so all we're saying at theend of the day, after all of
this stuff, is we all care aboutthe dogs and we all, no matter
what side you're on, care aboutthe dogs.
And we should look at ourperspectives with the same
respect that I know you careabout the dog if you're on this
side and I know you care aboutthe dog if you're on this side,

(01:29:53):
yeah, how we don't have to agree, but if we can at least be
willing to listen to each other,we are still putting that first
mission forward, which is theright thing for the dog, and
being willing to look at it fromdifferent perspectives.

Speaker 1 (01:30:08):
Yeah, I agree, I agree, and I think we cap it on
that.
I don't think there's a bettermessage than that.
You know, hey, man, I wish youthe best.
I love what you're doing.
I love watching the differentseminars and stuff that you got
going on, and it's it's really,really cool to see you, you know
, in that good spot like in thezone and and thriving.

(01:30:28):
You got that perfect weather upthere in Northern California,
so God bless you for that.
And you know, if there's everanything I can do for you or
anything, feel free to reach outand holler at me off leash
canine.
I know my team, we're big fansof um Ford canine and what you
guys are doing.
Yes, thank you, um.
You know, guys, if you want tolearn more about um Cameron and

(01:30:51):
his team and what they're doingupcoming seminars, tons and tons
of online resources as wellLogan dropped that website for
us again, and then also socialhandles, and then we'll plug it
in the show notes also for you.
But if the show was helpful,found something you think
somebody would learn somethingfrom it, feel free to share it,
leave a review, comments, andwe'll catch you next time on the

(01:31:12):
Big Dog Podcast.
Thanks, cameron, awesome, we'llsee you next time.

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