Inside the Machine: Crafting American Defense Rick Olsen, Killer Innovations

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Rick Olson's path from crafting architectural metalwork for the homes of tech billionaires to revolutionizing firearms manufacturing exemplifies American innovation at its finest. In this candid conversation, Rick pulls back the curtain on the precision engineering that sets his barrels apart from anything else on the market.

With remarkable transparency, Rick shares how he taught himself machining from scratch in 2011, developing a single-point cut rifling process that took two years to perfect but produces pistol barrels with unmatched accuracy. "I can take anybody else's barrel on the planet and cut their group size in half," he states confidently – a bold claim backed by years of meticulous development and testing. His newly patented 12-groove rifling system for 300 Blackout barrels solves the fundamental problem of gas blow-by with subsonic ammunition, achieving sub-MOA accuracy at distances where competitors fall apart.

Beyond the technical innovations, Rick offers invaluable insights into navigating the volatile firearms industry as a business owner. From nearly losing everything during the post-2016 "Trump slump" to building a manufacturing operation that now employs over 40 people and runs 24/7, his journey highlights both the rewards and pitfalls of entrepreneurship in this space. He addresses head-on the economic pressures squeezing firearms manufacturers – rising costs but stagnant prices – while sharing strategies for sustainable growth.

The conversation takes a thoughtful turn as Rick discusses the current state of Second Amendment advocacy and the challenging legislative environment in Washington state. His perspective on education-focused approaches to changing public perception offers a refreshing alternative to the often polarized firearms discourse.

Whether you're fascinated by precision manufacturing, considering starting your own business, or simply interested in firearms innovation, this episode delivers insights you won't find anywhere else. Tune in to discover how determination, technical excellence, and a passion for quality have established Rick Olson as a respected innovator in American firearms manufacturing.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Up in Washington.
You know they've been passingall sorts of crazy laws to us.
It's insane what they're doingto us.
It's completely un-American,unconstitutional, but they're
just ramrodding them through.
They're not taking a vote.
Bob Ferguson, the old attorneygeneral for Jay Inslee he is now
our governor and he was the onewriting all these laws for

(00:23):
Inslee.
Now he's in there and he's justram writing all these laws for
inslee.
Now he's in there and he's justbramrodding these things down
our throat.
You want some beans?
Not right now.
My wife would love some.
Yeah, she, she wants to do likethe whole homestead thing
eventually, like she wants tohave goats and chickens.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
Yeah, cows and chickens are next for us, and
that's, that's the, that's thegoal right there yeah, it's be
self-sufficient.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Right now we're just on an acre, yo, you know.
So it's just not conduciveright where we're at right now.
The last place I had was onfive acres.
Oh, nice, like it was, it wouldhave been perfect for it.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah you can do a lot with like two, two to five
acres.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Like that's when you really you can really start
doing yeah one acre is justenough room to where you're not
bumping into your neighbor, butit's not enough to start farming
.
Yeah, especially when I got twopit bulls.
They would find those chickensfun to chew on for a minute.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yeah, you're gonna have to get some chicken soon,
man.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, they're fun, they're pretty easy too that's
what I've heard, yeah, chickenand quail.
I've looked, been looking intoquail yeah, a little bit as well
.
I haven't done quail, but I'veheard the same thing.
The only thing with quail islike we got quail eggs one time
and you have to crack a lot ofeggs to like, oh yeah, make
scrambled eggs or something like.
I don't know if I have thepatience for little
thimble-sized yolks.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
I'll make you an automated quail cracker.
You just load up a hopper andyou're like a Gatling gun.
There you go.
You just got to automate it.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
So on this episode of the Big Tech Sword Ordinance
Home Steading Podcast, we'rehere with Brendan and Rick
talking about all thingshomesteading.
That's right.
But yeah, welcome to thepodcast.
You know what it is.
I'm Ike.
We have Brendan, also known asCamera Guy, in front of the
camera this time once again.
And then our guest today isRick Ol olson from icon killer

(02:24):
defense or uh, velocity there.
You got a lot of things goingon, yeah, killer.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
So city killer innovations is kind of like the
umbrella company.
So we do a lot of oem work fordifferent companies and within
we have velocity defense, whichis kind of our enthusiast
competition gear, mainlyfocusing on pistol stuff right

(02:52):
now.
And then we have icon defense,which is more the AR side, but
it's also like the more duty,like hard use gear.
Military law enforcement youknow we're developing it to be
hard use gear.
Military law enforcement youknow we're developing it to be
hard use gear.
So we kind of have those thosesegments, because I don't think
that they really cross.
You know, like, if we'redesigning stuff for hard use,

(03:16):
it's not really like I wouldn't,I wouldn't put a compensator on
a hard use pistol.
You know it just doesn't makesense.
So I wanted to delineate a harduse pistol.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, you know, it just doesn't make sense.
So I wanted to delineate no,that's good to kind of segment
it out based on, like you know,the purpose behind the brand and
kind of what you're trying toaccomplish, yeah, and a lot of
it too was, uh, my businesspartner, Mike Miller.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Um, he, he was the founder of mega if you remember
mega arms, oh yeah, Um, and hehad like a really crazy cult
following there and he was knownfor doing like very high end
hard use you know AR stuff andhe was actually one of the first
guys to really do a lot ofaftermarket you know OEM

(03:56):
receivers and stuff like thatand he ended up being over at
Zev for a while and three yearsago he came over and joined me
and so he really wanted to getback to his roots, um, and
that's where icon was kind oflaunched, um, we thought it
would be a a good fit and so farit's been moving kind of slow.

(04:17):
We've been so busy with the oemside that we haven't had the
energy and the time to just diveinto it.
But this year we're leaning in.
We finally found the space topush into it.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
So I want to come back and talk about each of
these kind of brands, if youwill, individually.
First, can you give us a littlebit of backstory on you and
kind of how you found yourselfin this world?
Yeah, and kind of how you foundyourself in this world.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, it's kind of a long story but I started off
actually doing really high-endarchitectural sheet metal, doing
mostly shop fabrication andstuff like that a lot of press
break work, advanced layout,welding, finishing.
I worked on Paul Allen's'shouse and bill gates house and

(05:09):
the experience music project upin seattle.
Um, I did a bunch of metal workon that um, and I ended up
getting more into like theproject management side of doing
construction work and doingestimating and even into
engineering and I really justgot burned out on construction

(05:29):
in a whole.
Like I just it's not like thefirearm community, it's very
cutthroat and for me it justwasn't a good fit.
I wasn't happy there and so Iwas always looking for kind of a
way out of that world and to dosomething I really enjoyed and
what I had passion in.

(05:50):
And so I grew up in a long rangeshooting family.
My dad he was a highmasterpalma shooter when I was growing
up and he builds really coolyou know walnut wood stocks in
our garage garage and I justkind of grew up tinkering with
my dad and I just like you knowwhat I this is something I can

(06:12):
see myself doing and, um,finally, I just got a wild hair
up my butt and, uh, I wasdesigning parts in cat and
trying to get them, uh, patentedand I was getting, you know,
getting some stuff through.
But when you go to prototypesomething, you go to a machine

(06:35):
shop and they're like, yeah, youknow, it looks really cool, uh,
60 grand and I'll prototypethat for you.
And you're like, what you know,like I was, just like you know,
a kid.
You know, on a regular budget Ididn't have sixty thousand
dollars to line around right,and so, you know, I decided to
buy a mill and teach myself howto mill.

(06:56):
I'd never done it before.
I was a fabricator, um, I'vealways been able to learn
anything that I put my mind to,but I wasn't a machinist and so
there was a learning curve forsure, it was a scary one and
bought that mill and bought aseat of master cam the brand new
Hawes seat of master cam, putit in a shop next to my house

(07:19):
and started going and withinthree or four days I was cutting
four axis parts.
You know, I was just.
I figured out how to make themill move.
I figured out, you know kind ofwhat I was doing, had a lot of
learning to do.
Yeah, you don't know what youdon't know.
Yeah, but not real quick.
But we were making good, youknow, and I dove right into the

(07:40):
um, the metrology part of it.
We're, you know, measuring whatyou're doing.
You can machine stuff all day,but is it, you know, measuring
what you're doing?
You can machine stuff all day,but is it right, you know.
And so that's one thing that Iforced myself to do.
It's like, okay, if I'm goingto become a machinist, I've got
to learn how to verify my workRight and and not just make crap
, cause you can do it with andyou can't see it, like in

(08:02):
machine parts.
Sometimes you can, butmeasurements are measurements.
Like it's hard to see a couplethousandths of an inch and it's
either right or wrong.
And so, learning how to checkmy own work and make high
quality parts it, it took me alittle bit, but it wasn't as
hard as people think it might be.
You know, especially if youreally dive into it, you put

(08:23):
your whole heart and soul intoit.
You can, you can do aboutanything.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
You just got to go for it what year was it when you
bought your first mill?

Speaker 1 (08:35):
2011.
Oh wow, I think that was when Icut my first parts in 2011 and
it was a.
It was a god sent, like Iactually ran into john wong at
rainier arms okay, yeah likealmost right out of the gate and
, um, he had some little simpleparts that he wanted made and it

(08:55):
just kind of exploded fromthere, like he, he wanted these
parts made, those parts made,and then I started running into
other people and gettingdifferent oem work and we
started doing our own brand andit just kind of exploded, um
ended up moving into a biggershop and it's, you know, fast

(09:18):
forward to where we're at now.
We got 11 machines, we have 40plus employees, we run 24-7,
literally my machine shopdoesn't even turn off and we're
turning away work.
It's just, it's exploded andit's been amazing to watch it
and you know, the employees, thepeople that we've surrounded

(09:41):
ourselves with is just, we'vegot a top-notch crew.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
So how do you go about scaling from your garage,
basically with your one machineand your buddy camping out at
your house running shifts withyou?
How do you scale up to 10,000square feet, 40 employees and 11
machines like that Slowly?

Speaker 1 (10:04):
It's scary, you know, because it's the, the
investment of this equipment, Imean some of these pieces of
machine.
You know equipment are six,seven hundred thousand dollars,
insane, and so it's a big chunkevery time you put another
machine on the floor.
But when you put anothermachine on the floor you got to
make it work right.
So you have to be ready to hirepeople to build more

(10:28):
infrastructure.
And it's not just the machines,um, it's bigger air compressors
, it's better sandblastingequipment, it's more tumblers,
it's having an assembly areathat's set up, that it's having
a photo studio, it's putting innetwork and it stuff, like it's

(10:50):
just, it just, it's like layersupon layers, and so it's a.
It's a slow growth.
But again, you just gotta beready to wear a lot of hats.
You know I'm the it guy.
One minute I'm the welder.
The next minute I'm building alot of hats.
You know I'm the it guy.
One minute I'm the welder.
The next minute I'm building aspreadsheet.
The next minute I'm designing apart.
The next minute, you know, it'sjust, you just go where you

(11:13):
need and you just kind of Iguess it's a be like water thing
fill the cup so you mentionedthat you, you work with a lot of
different kind of higher,higher end brands or oem for a
lot of different brands.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Um, how, how do you go about getting those clients?
And like, how do you buildthose relationships with those
folks?
Well, do they just kind of youjust happen to meet the right
people the right time, or it's,it's that.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
But it's also I don't know.
I mean this sounds cliche, butit's like be a good person.
Yeah, you know, like if you dowhat you say you're going to do
and you treat people right, likeI believe doors open for you.
And over the years we've, likemy first client that I ever had,
I still have them.

(12:00):
You know.
I'm not saying I haven't lostpeople, but it's more me firing
customers, but you know thedoors open.
Mike Miller when he came on, hebrought with him an incredible
portfolio of people that he'dworked with in the past.
I owe a lot of that to him.

(12:21):
Some of our best clients thatwe have.
He brought with him, a lot ofthat to him.
Some of our best clients thatwe have he brought with him and
um, and, but they're all veryhigh.
You know I can't say exactlywho these companies are Um,
there's NDAs in place andeverything, but we work with
some of the very best brands inthis industry.
We do some of the most high endwork in this industry, and, and

(12:44):
we don't just do the machinework, we also do a lot of the
design development.
You know they come to us with aconcept and we try to take it
the rest of the way for them.
Sometimes.
Sometimes they'll come to uswith a drawing, but it's pretty
rare.
Usually we're very involved inthe R&D part.
A lot of sometimes we'll comeup with an idea and we'll bring

(13:07):
it to them and say, hey, we cameup with this idea, you guys
want to take this.
We feel like it's a good fitfor you, and they can take it or
leave it.
Um, but you know, like onebrand that I can say that we
work very close with, closelywith, is sons of liberty.
You know, great company.
We do a lot of work for them.
Um, you know we collab on thedesign.

Speaker 3 (13:28):
They have a lot of experience with testing and
doing that kind of stuff, so wedo a lot with them yeah, we, we
end up doing a lot of work withthem too over here and they they
definitely seem like a goodgroup of guys over there who
really care about not only theindustry but just like 2a rights
and building a quality productand stuff.
So a lot of a lot of respectfor them and their companies,

(13:51):
growing a lot too.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, they're taking off like like absolutely crazy
yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah, well deserved too.
They make good stuff yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
Not only on like just like you know, the expansion
side, but they're like goingdeeper into like new stuff, like
you know, bring out newproducts and new materials and
like kind of pushing theenvelope as far as you know,
like what they're, what they'reputting out.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
We have a we have a long list of projects they want
to do.
You know, and along with someof the other OEMs.
You know like everybody wantsto be innovating, right.
It's like if you don't innovate, you die.
You know like everybody wantsto be innovating, right.
It's like if you don't innovate, you die, especially the
companies we work with, and Ithink that's a lot of the reason
why these companies are buckingthe trend right now.
You know, a lot of people arehaving a hard time right now.

(14:33):
It seems like some of thecompanies that we've aligned
with are somehow they're notbeing affected as much, and it's
it's cool to see and, you know,I feel very blessed.
I think God's looked out for usto be have friends like this.
You know, mike and Kyle over atSons are great people, like you

(14:54):
said, very two-way oriented.
They do care, but they alsocare about putting good product
out in the market and they theycater to military, law
enforcement and the enthusiasts,and so they're hitting all
three segments very well.
It's cool to see.
I wish I was a marketer likethem.

(15:15):
I don't know how to market likethose guys.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, it's nice when you kind of have all the pieces
coming together.
They've got the good designs,the good IP, if you will, the
marketing side, the culture andeverything over there, the sense
of community and all that, andthen just the ability to take an
idea and run with it and thenactually get it out to the
market.
They've got the whole setupover there really.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, they're a great company, great people, and
that's the big thing is.
Surround yourself, you know,that's why I started this.
Surround yourself with peopleyou consider friends and that
you you'd be friends with, youknow, and that's where the
construction thing totally lostme.
Yeah, it's like a lot of thosepeople I wouldn't, I didn't want

(16:00):
to shake their hand, you know,and it's like why am I working
with these people?
And this industry is completelydifferent.
You know, every, every industryhas got their rotten eggs, but
it seems like, for the most part, almost everybody I meet.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
You don't really get.
You're not able to get awaywith it as much in this industry
because everybody knows,everybody you know, and then
like that stuff gets around andif you start developing that bad
reputation, you know peoplejust don't really have a desire
to work with you at that point.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
Yeah, yeah, true, I definitely think what you were
saying just by being a goodperson, doing what you say
you're going to do, and thatsort of thing definitely pays
off.
Even if it doesn't, you know,work out in the short term, it's
probably for good reason.
You know, there's been othercompanies I've worked for and
things didn't work out, but itwas companies that I probably
wouldn't want to stay withanyways.
So, like you said, I don'tthink for the viewers who aren't

(16:54):
in the industry right now, Idon't think they realize how
difficult this last year hasbeen for a lot of companies.
And to hear stories like withyou guys, stories like with Sons
, sons just good dudes doinggood work and and, uh, doing
well right now, it's reallydefinitely encouraging to see,
and I definitely think you knowyou have that work ethic, you're
gonna eventually it's gonnacome back to you yeah, and the

(17:18):
thing that scares me the most isI feel like right now, it's the
gun shops that are getting hitthe hardest yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Um, that, and that's the point of that are getting
hit the hardest.
Yeah, definitely, and that'sthe point of sale, right.
So that's scary to me and Ireally feel for a lot of these
gun shops.
I can see that they'restruggling and that they're
hurting right now and I'm reallyhoping that this turns around
for us pretty soon.
Like really we need it in the,in this community and to in the

(17:49):
2A community especially.
Like we need to bolster thingsup a little bit, and I think,
with this new administration,I'm praying that things are
going to shift for us a littlebit.
But, yeah, same, yeah, it'skind of scary times because
eventually, like we're notimmune, like eventually it makes
its way up to the manufacturers.
It's always like a delay.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, you kind of see the tail end of it and stuff.
You know, yeah, there is adelay there.
Yeah, like, there's been acouple gun shops here in Conroe
and Magnolia that have closed,like there was one right there
off 1488.
I drove by every day because ofschool.
I met the owner.
He's been in the range beforehe shoots the match and stuff.
Super cool dude, um I I justwas driving by the other day and

(18:32):
saw that it's for lease now.
You know, um, and they werealways a pretty cool shop, like
they stocked good stuff, and allthese little little shops and
all the local gun shops are arethe ones that feel at first.
Yeah, I mean, we saw in 2016the Trump slump and everything.
I think this Trump presidencyis going to be different.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
We hit a double whammy with that one, because I
think a lot of people werebetting on Hillary getting in,
and that's exactly what happenedand everybody stocked their
shelves tall.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Everybody was going as deep as they could, buying as
much inventory as they could,because they thought Hillary had
it in the bag.
And then, when the oppositehappened, everybody was so
overstocked that Fire sales.
Yeah, exactly yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
And I think there was a build-up to that too, like
with Sandy Hook, right, becausethere were some things that
happened where these explosionswould happen in the market and
nobody could get what theywanted to sell it.
Everybody was freaked out thatif Hillary got in they were not
going to be able to get whatthey wanted, kind of like what

(19:36):
you alluded to.
People doubled down or tripleddown.
It was crazy.
The second he got in the carpetjust got ripped out from the
entire industry.
I was at SHOT Show and he gotinaugurated.
Oh yeah, we were watching it onthe screen and everybody was
hooping and hollering and it wasa great thing for the country,

(19:58):
but for the firearm industry itwas the biggest kick in the
teeth because you saw the firesales start happening, right
then.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
Biggest kick in the teeth because you saw the fire
sales start happening right then.
Also, too, for people that mayhave gotten into the industry
here more recently than others.
Like anytime any politicianwould open their mouth about a
potential ban like, look at theObama years.
Like he would open his mouthabout that, everyone would rush
out and buy you know mags andammo and guns and stuff.
And it got to the point where,like you know, anytime there was
any sort of you know masskilling event or something, a

(20:28):
politician would open theirmouth and talk about bands that
they want to push through.
Everyone would freak out and gohave that high buying Towards
the end.
It stopped being like that.
Yeah, we've become acclimated.
Everybody thought that's whatHillary was going to do.
You know, like if Hillary getsin, there's going to be a huge
rush, there's going to be thesebans and everything, so

(20:49):
everyone's stocking up and thenthat didn't happen.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, you know you definitely see the gun stores
and the suppliers being a littlebit more conservative now.
They're not.
They're not doubling down onevery scare, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Because they're not doubling down on every scare.
Yeah, because post-Trump, goinginto the Biden era, they would
talk about bans, and then we'dsee it on the news.
Okay, here it comes, here itcomes.
And then everybody had gottenrealized over the past, however
long, like you know what Nothingever happens.
So I'm just going to sit thisone out, or?

Speaker 1 (21:21):
they have five or six .
Ars in their closet that theydidn't put in the last three
scares.
They're like full up.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Yeah, they've already panic bought.
I think another factor too isthat the economy's been bad for
a lot of different industriesand people really can't afford
extra stuff, at least,especially last year.
I think that's what's happeningnow, even going into this year.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
If you look at gas prices any consumer price index
you know gas prices.
The grocery bills, like youknow people are just the.
The amount that people arespending on groceries and gas
like that eats up yourdisposable income, your, your
discretionary income.
People just don't have themoney for it, right yeah?

Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, and on top of weird, you guys can tell me if
you've seen this or not likeeverything else in the world is
going up, but firearm pricesaren't.
For some reason we can't raisebecause we're in this weird
conundrum right now wherenobody's, the demand isn't there

(22:18):
right.
So like our cost is going upconstantly, like my cost of
material, my cost of goods soldis going it's probably gone up
15%, 20% in the last three yearsbut I cannot raise my price or
put myself out of themarketplace and the people I
work for are doing the samething.
You know my OEMs are holding.

(22:39):
So it's not a trend right nowfor the firearm industry to
raise along with the cost ofliving increase which is kind of
scary Relations happen allaround us, you know, because
eventually it's going to have tohappen, right, Like we can't
hold out forever and just letour.
you know, we have a very smallnet profit.

(22:59):
I'm sure you know too, firearmmanufacturing and gun stores.
We have a very narrow Don't getinto it for the money, no, we
have a very narrow net profitmargin.
We're not raking in the dough,yeah, and so when inflation
happens at that level, it's justeating into that.
And when you're talking numberslike 15, 20 percent, like at

(23:20):
some point, like there's nothingleft to be made and something's
going to give, either the costof living has got to come down
and cost of goods sold is goingto come down, or the prices are
going to have to go up.
I mean, it's just inevitable,it's going to happen.
And what's that going to looklike?
What's that going to do topeople?
Because it sucks.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
Nobody wants to raise prices.
I've got a question now forboth of you being business
owners, looking at economicsituations like this is there
anything you guys do now, havinglearned from stuff in the past,
that kind of protects yourbusiness in times like difficult
times like this, changes you'vemade or stuff?
I guess we'll go with you first, rick yeah, um, careful how far

(24:05):
you leverage yourself.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
You know how much debt you put yourself in.
You know, during the trumpslump I almost died.
You know it almost got me.
Um, I was.
I was leveraged to the hillbecause I was a new company.
Right when you start, you knowwithin that first five years you
don't have time to pay offequipment.
You know within that first fiveyears you don't have time to
pay off equipment.
You know, and nobody can affordto go out and buy you know two

(24:29):
$300,000 mills and lathes out oftheir pocket.
You know I started likeeverybody else did.
You go to the bank, you get aloan, you bite the bullet and
you take out a loan on a pieceof equipment.
And but the thing is, you bitethe bullet and you take out a
loan on a piece of equipment,but the thing is that bill's due
every month.
Some of my equipment now it's 12Gs a month just for the

(24:51):
freaking piece of equipmentsitting on the floor, and that's
not the people running it andthat's not the tools I put in it
, it's not the material, nothing.
But you got to really becareful on how far you leverage
yourself because it almost gotme.
You know, and I'm in a muchbetter position now I think we

(25:11):
own like 75 percent of theequipment, outright Nice.
You know so that that that debtratio is way down from where
it's at and I never want to letit get up like that again,
because puking blood in themiddle of the night because
you're so stressed out is not agood way to live.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
It doesn't sound healthy.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
No, and so what about you, ike?
What's your take on that?

Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, kind of touching on what you said, not
over-leveraging yourself.
I think that's a really easymistake to make because there's
always some risk with businessand, like you said, there's no
way to grow it.
I'm not going to say there's noway, I don't like absolute
statements, but it's verydifficult to grow a company and
to scale up like that withouttaking on some amount of debt.

(25:57):
Obviously it can be done, butyou're not going to grow as
quickly as you could otherwise.
And then sometimes the demandis there and either you have to
grow or give up.
If you're not moving forward,you're going to end up falling.
So it's trying to find thatline.
And then also I think MichaelGerlich talked about it on the

(26:18):
podcast, I think on our podcasta couple years ago at SHOT Show.
He's raving concealment forthose that may not know.
He was basically saying whentimes are good and money's
flowing in, that's when thebusinesses tend to get really
loose with their spending.
They don't really watch theirbudgets as much as they should.
They don't throw money away butthey're not as deliberate with

(26:42):
their spending.
If you maintain that all theway through the slow periods and
stuff, if you don't adjust thatquick enough, it can really
bite you, come back to bite you.
So maintaining that disciplinewhen times are good will prepare
you for the downturn, becauseyou're already used to that
discipline and that you knowthat I guess deliberate spending
, as opposed to just likethrowing money here and there

(27:05):
and just like not watching it asclosely.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
So yeah, and you know everybody loves growing Like
there's nothing more excitingthan growing your company, you
know, because you get to see itmoving forward.
The hardest thing to do is towatch your company go backwards.
Yeah Right, that's painfulbecause we fight for every inch
forward.
Yeah right, that's painfulbecause we fight for every inch

(27:28):
forward.
It's like when you're in atug-of-war, you know, when
you're pulling back and you'reyou're winning, it feels great.
But when you're getting pulledforward and you're losing ground
, it's kind of a horriblesinking feeling.
And this, this guy um, this wasyears ago.
This was actually back when Iwas doing hvac stuff.
I did a a seminar with this.
I listened to this guy speakand he had a really great visual

(27:51):
analogy for this and hopefullyI can do it without a whiteboard
here.
But imagine you have a triangleright and your company growing
is going up this side of thetriangle and your company
declining is going up this sideof the triangle and your company
declining is going down thisside of the triangle.
Now, when you're growing, youalways cut into the triangle and

(28:16):
then you grow to the line.
So that line is your growthcurve right.
So you always you struggle, youexpand up to the line.
You struggle, you expand up tothe line and so forth.
So you're on the inside of thetriangle.
The inside of the triangle isprofitability, the outside of
the triangle you're losing money.
Our natural inclination is, whenwe decline, is to do the exact

(28:42):
opposite.
We hold on to things as long aswe can and then we fall to the
line.
We hold on to things as long aswe can and then we fall to the
line.
We hold on to things as long aswe can and we fall to the line.
We cut at the last second toget down to the line.
But that's wrong thinking.
If we were struggling coming upand we were staying on the
inside of the triangle, youshould be doing the same thing

(29:04):
coming down, and on the insideof the triangle you should be
doing the same thing coming down.
You should cut soon, let itmove to the line, cut soon, move
to the line.
And that was just a really goodanalogy.
That always stuck with me.
That's a good visualization,but it's a hard thing to do,
even though you need to do it.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
It's very easy to say , it's another thing.
In practice, intellectually,you might know that that's the
right thing to do, but actuallygoing out and doing that is very
difficult.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
Well, we build relationships with employees.
Our most valuable things wehave are our guys, right?
Oh, absolutely Our team.
It's so hard to build anawesome team.
It's probably the mostimportant thing we do is team
building.
If you don't do that right,you're done.
And so, letting go good people,you're holding out hope that

(29:54):
things are going to pick up andyou hold on to them as long as
you can, but at some point youmight have to let them go.
But the last thing you want todo is let them go early, right?
So it's a conundrum.
It's a really tough spot to bein as a business owner and it's
it's a hard call to make, andbecause you let a guy go like

(30:14):
that, you might never see himagain.
You know they're a good guy,they're going to go find
someplace else to work andthey're going to do good there,
and so it's hard.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
I definitely don't envy you guys for having to make
decisions like that.
You know I can't imagine and wetalked a little bit about it
earlier but it's just the amountof work that goes into building
the business and growing it inthe first place, getting it to
take off how you guys said.
You know it takes a long timebefore you know, several years
before people really start tonotice you and they're like oh,
you guys blew up overnight.
It's like no, no, we've beenworking at this for a long time

(30:48):
already and then you know it'sjust definitely a kudos to you
guys for for being able to dothat and stick with it.
It definitely takes grit.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Or we're just really dumb.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
Yeah, don't know any better.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
I think also too, to be a business owner, you kind of
also have to be an optimist tosome degree.
I mean, if you took a look atit, statistically speaking, most
businesses fail within thefirst three years.
Most don't see their fifth yearanniversary.
So to go and be like you knowwhat I'm going to beat the odds,
that takes a certain degree ofoptimism.
And then what you were talkingabout was cutting early enough.

(31:21):
You have to be a realist to anextent degree.
It requires almost a degree ofpessimism to be like okay, I
don't think things are going toget better.
I need to cut big enough, fastenough, um.
But as like a business owneryou're, I feel like naturally
you're more optimistic.
Um, so you think things aregoing to get better.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
And when they don't, that's when you find yourself
outside the triangle downward I,I, we're all sinners that way,
man, like we all know what ourfault is and you still do it,
you know.
But to be cognizant of it andto understand that when you do
that you're taking that risk,you know, I think it's important

(32:01):
and to not let it get too outof hand.
Right, I feel that life is allabout balance, you know, trying
to find that that balance pointwhere everything kind of
maintains.
Like you can, I never feel likeI can do everything, anything
perfect, but I feel like I canhold a lot of spinning plates,

(32:21):
you know, somewhat Okay, youknow I'm dancing around trying
to keep them in the air, butit's a it's a lot to handle.
And the other thing I was I wasthinking of too is, like, in
these tough times, I think onething that separates the, the
people that succeed, is theyforce themselves to keep

(32:44):
innovating and kick and pushingand pushing forward and not
going stagnant.
I see that in a lot of differentcompanies, the ones that are
out there pushing hard andtrying to bring new ideas and
new things to the market andpushing the envelope, it seems

(33:05):
like they're doing, uh, theyseem to buck the trend as well.
Like, like, right now we'reworking with flux defense.
You know, great company, um,and we we actually did a like a
collab slide with them with acharging handle, but it they're
like, when I, when I met themwell, actually, the first time I
saw the flux raider I was likeman, like this thing is cool.

(33:27):
You know, like these guys put alot of thought into it, yeah, a
lot of thought.
Yeah, the way you you can dumpboth mags, yeah, and, and you
can just slam the next one inthe reload time is like crazy.
Like the way that buttstock toyour the brace deploys, sorry,
um, uh, and just like the theamount of detail that they put

(33:48):
into that thing.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
And you know, like those boys, it's a very complex
piece of piece of equipment, or,yeah, like it's, it's not.
It's not a simple design no, Iappreciated it.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
You know, like I, I like building complex things,
like you guys have seen thestuff I made, like I kind of go
into the weeds, and so I saw itand I appreciated it and I was
like man, I gotta meet theseguys, you know.
And so we ran into each otherand, um, and we decided to do a
collab on a slide and like now,now it looks like we're going to
be doing some barrel work withthem, everything else.

(34:20):
So, um, but they, they're kindof the point of the spear a
little bit.
You know they're, they'repushing into something that was
kind of the point of the spear alittle bit.
You know they're pushing intosomething that was kind of
untapped, or they did it betterthan anybody else had ever done
it.
And I just see those kind ofcompanies somehow, in this
decline, they're still thrivingand they're always sold out, you

(34:43):
know, and it's cool to see youknow.
So innovation does still drivethe ship.
You just, you got to putyourself at the point of that
spear somehow, and that's onething that we try to do very
hard.
I don't know like if I'm doinga really great job at it, but I
try as hard as I can to keeppushing and to try to keep

(35:04):
innovating.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
So, speaking of that, that's a really good segue.
We're doing some other videoson it.
That's why you're down here isrecording some product
informational videos and stuff.
But Icon has some pretty coolstuff coming out.
Can you talk about the 300blackout barrel?
Yeah, you showed me a bunch ofstuff at SHOT.
We're going over some stuff now, but I think this would be a
good kind of natural.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
It's pretty cool.
Yeah, it's kind of a crazything.
We actually got anon-provisional patent on
rifling, which I don't thinkhappens a lot anymore.
Right to get a patent onrifling.
But we were actually workingwith a guy His name is Rob
Randazzo.
He's a really cool dude thatwe've been friends with.
He actually worked with Mike atZev for a while when Mike was

(35:49):
running manufacturing andengineering over there.
He worked at Aberdeen and heworked for some unknown military
forces as their armorer, doingwork for them, setting up their
guns and everything.
Very smart guy.
He's the one that actually kindof brought this to us and we we

(36:12):
teamed up with him and we wehad to do a lot of work on the
development to get this thing toactually work and over the
finish line.
But it's, it's kind of a crazytechnology.
It's it's a 12 groove rifling.
Instead of six grooves it has12 and the reason for it is when
you have 12 grooves, yourrifling depth can be half as

(36:32):
deep, right, so instead of fourthousands deep grooves, they're
two thousands deep, and whatthat gains you in 300 blackout.
See when 300 blackout doesn'thave enough.
If you're shooting subsonic, itdoesn't have enough.
If you're shooting subsonic, itdoesn't have enough pressure
behind the bullet to seal thebullet into the corners of the
rifling grooves when they'refour thousandths deep.
Right, you need 43,000 PSIbehind the bullet to deform the

(36:56):
bullet into those corners, toseal it.
And if you don't seal, whathappens is you get gas blow by
in those corners and itdestabilizes your bullet.
That's why 300 blackouts fallapart at 150 yards.
They get destabilized and theyget out and they wobble, wobble,
wobble and then all of a suddenthey start tumbling.
Yeah, right, it's always around150 yards.

(37:17):
When we went to the 12 grooveand we're getting it to seal and
it's also less turbulent, yougot those two thousandths
grooves on the outside of thebullet.
Oh, so it's like smaller bladesof a prop in the air, right, so
they're not disturbing the airas much as it's spinning,
because you're subsonic.
You don't have that highpressure cone going around the
bullet like you do a supersonicum, so the air is contacting the

(37:39):
surface of the bullet the wholetime, so but what it does is it
seals.
So what we're able to do withthat is we're getting sub moa at
300 yards of subsonic.
It's working great, and sowe're like super excited, like
we actually got it to work andit's doing what it's supposed to
do, so we're we're reallyexcited about this one.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
when's when do you anticipate that launching?
You're absolutely out.
Oh, it's out, it's out.
Oh wow, we got them.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
Oh snap, I thought that was going to be my next
recce rifle is a 9-inch 300blackout.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
I think we just took shipment of the first production
batch.
Well snap.
So yeah, they're hitting themarket right now.
Wow.
So I think we just need tofinalize the price.
They're here, but I thinkprobably in the next week

(38:34):
they'll be on the website forsale.
We're going to stock ourdealers and everybody first,
obviously.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Speaking about rifling and grooves and all that
, let's talk about your pistolbarrels.
You're probably going to goin-depth on this on one of the
product videos.
What makes your pistol barrelsdifferent than, say, any other
one on the market?

Speaker 1 (38:57):
You guys.
I've given you the explanationof this.
It's the way we rifle it.
There's three different typesof rifling and I don't want to
get like crazy into the weeds onthis because I can go on and on
.
I geek out bad, but it took metwo years to develop the
technology that we put intothose barrels and it was trial

(39:19):
and error, trial and error andit was a very expensive machine
sitting there for two years,like as I developed this.
It was a very expensive machinesitting there for two years,
like as I developed this.
It was a very, very painfulprocess and anybody that wants
to try it, go ahead, I dare you.
It's, it's painful and so, butI'm stubborn and I knew I could
do it.

(39:40):
Um, but basically it's, uh, thethe rifling on the inside of the
barrel is single-point cut andwhat that means?
Almost every other barrel onthe market right now as far as I
know, I'm the only onesingle-point cutting pistol
barrels in the world buteverybody else they're using

(40:01):
button or broach rifling and so,at the end of the day, button
and broach don't yield the samegroove to groove accuracy,
because every groove in thebarrel is being cut with a
different cutter edge.
Um where single point cut.
You have one cutter edgecutting each groove one at a

(40:21):
time and you're taking two tenthousandths of an inch per
stroke.
So at the end of the day we'regoing, we're putting the tool in
the barrel 144 times, but everygroove is cut with the same
cutter, at the exact same depth,at the exact same width.
Even the scratches, like if youlook at it through a microscope
, even the scratches are forens.

(40:43):
You can't tell the difference.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
So you've got like one tool, one cutting tool that
cuts two one-thousandths of aninch off of one groove and it
indexes to the next position,cuts two one-thousandths off and
does that for all six grooves.
Yep, and then it repeats theprocess again.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah, and you advance the cutter and it goes through
all the grooves again, takingtwo 10,000ths of an inch.
That's about all it can take Ifyou tried to load the tool more
than that.
Two 10,000ths, two 10,000ths,not two 1,000ths, Two 10,000ths,
so eight passes, you know, orfive passes to make a thou Wow,
and so we're going four thoudeep, so without deep, so it's

(41:28):
it's a lot of strokes and what'swhat's cycle time?
on that like I won't.
I can't say that, oh yeah,that's probably.
Yeah, I'm trying to the way Ido.
It is very unique.
We actually make our own toolsin-house, um, but it's very
highly guarded.
How I did it?
Um, but it's all being done.
The one of the other coolestthings is it it's all done in
one machine, from start tofinish.
Oh, wow, all the features ofaccuracy are done in one machine

(41:52):
, start to finish.
The barrel, od, the bore, therifling, the threads, the crown,
the chamber, which are all thecomponents of accuracy, are done
in one machine without everbeing touched.
We cut out a pre-hardenedmaterial, so I'm not even doing
a post heat treat.

(42:13):
That will deform the material,yeah.
Well, harder on the tools, yeah, but what you get out the other
end is what you get, and so the, at the end of the day, what
this?
It gives you a very accuratebarrel.
You got four inches on a pistolbarrel to get that bullet
pointed the right way.
People say this all the time,but I don't think people really

(42:34):
understand it.
Barrel length doesn't haveanything to do with accuracy.
Barrel length has everything todo with velocity.
If you can get that bulletpointed straight, you got four
inches to do it.
You can do it.
These are incredibly accuratebarrels.
Usually I can take anybodyelse's barrel on the planet.

(42:54):
Cut their group size in half.
Oh wow, I've made that claimsince I started making them.
If people don't like them orthey say bullshit, send it back
to me, I'll take it back.
I've never had one returned.
They're accurate, they, they dowhat they.
They do what I say they need todo, but they.
It was a hard, hard lesson toto develop that technology you

(43:17):
found a lot of ways not to do it.
Huh, yes, yeah the light bulb,you know, yeah, yeah, it was.
It was a lot of trial and errorand it's it's very complex and
it wasn't until I startedactually making my own tools in
the house that I got it to stayallowed, because I was hiring
grind companies and stuff.
I'm literally grinding carbideon my own.

(43:40):
I couldn't get anybody else todo it right, so so I I bought
grinders and brought it in, butit's just very tedious, like
getting the setup right isincredible.
But once I did it, it's very,very repeatable now and it's
very steady.
I did it and it was hard to do.

(44:02):
But the cool thing now is isit's all automated, it's all
robotic.
It moves between the.
It has two machines that goesthrough, but it's robot loaded,
it's bar fed in Very stableprocess now.
So I won somehow.
But yeah, that's probably thecoolest thing I've ever done

(44:25):
myself, the hardest thing I'veever done.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, it sounds like it.
Well, a couple of years, andI'm not even gonna ask you how
many thousands of dollars, and Imean just, the machine was 500
and that thing sat for two years.
I was going to say just takingtwo years to actually get it to
where it's producing income is.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
It was a hard pill to swallow, but I knew it was
possible.
Yeah, I knew, I knew it couldbe done and I knew if I could do
it I would have something thatnobody else has.
And I haven't.
You know it.
Some things are worth fightingfor and some things are worth
pushing, and we're known now forthese barrels and nobody like

(45:09):
we're really like.
Velocity Defense is a verysmall company in the big scheme
of things.
You talk to most people, theydon't even know who we are.
If they do know who we are,they know it's our barrel
Because it's starting to makewaves and so it's getting out
there.
It's just slow because we'resmall and I suck at marketing.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
You're too busy running the machines and another
thousand hats that you wear.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah, it's, it's a balancing act, but we're trying
to step into the marketing andletting people know what we're
doing more.
This year it's my, it's my bigpush.
You know, like I realized Ineed to stop taking so much of
my energy, all my energy, andputting it into the product for
just a little bit, and I need tobuild my marketing and branding

(45:59):
department and get that up andmoving and breathing on its own.
You know, because once you getit to a certain point and you
get the right people in place,it will start taking care of
itself.
But I wasn't giving it enoughattention to even get it there.
Yeah, right, so now it's now.
It's like I'm refocusing alittle bit, but I'm excited.
Yeah, it sounds pretty cool.

(46:20):
Yeah, I'm excited and I, youknow, again, I really appreciate
you guys for having me overthis.
You know, this week, verygenerous of you to come up, you
know, invite me in and, you know, do these product videos and
stuff, because this is what Ineed help with right now and you
guys are great friends.
You know great people.
Like I said, this industry isabout the relationships and the

(46:44):
people that you know and goodpeople, and it seems like all
the good people stick together.
Oh yeah, and it's just, it'sreally cool to see awesome,
awesome industry that wayabsolutely.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
Yeah, I'm very glad we can help.
Yeah, collaboration, I love itthis is cool too.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
I love the podcast setup you guys got yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah, this is awesome Cozy little room.
We've got some beautifulartwork on the wall.
I guess you got most of theartwork over there, but yeah,
this is a really cool setup.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
How many podcasts do you guys do A lot.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
I think we're at 109 right now, we've got more than
that recorded.
Yeah, I think published is like107.
We, we've got more than thatrecorded.
Yeah, I think published is like107.
Yeah, wow, something like that.
You're close Like 109, 107.
How long have you been doing it?
A while, okay, ever since I'vebeen here.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
I've only been here for like a year and a half, so
yeah, I think this is our thirdseason now that we to everyone
every two weeks, with a break inthe summer, so we're in season
three right now, um, and thenwe're doing one every two weeks

(47:55):
just to kind of maintain so wecan do other things.
Yeah, just a podcast, so, um,because doing one every week is
pretty intensive, but I think wehave like five or six, maybe
even more, recorded.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Yeah, we do.
I've got I've got a little bitof work ahead of me here, a
little bit of catching up to do.
I was out for a couple months,so, um, but a question I was
going to ask earlier and we gotdistracted with politics.
Um, I like to ask this questionand I have a feeling you've
probably got an interestinganswer and that is what do you
want to see different from thefirearms industry?
What kind of changes would youlike to see?
It's kind of a tough question.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
It is and it isn't.
So this is just my feel on it.
So this is just my feel on it.
So back when I was a kidgrowing up, the NRA was like
they were our biggest advocateand ally.
And there's some people thatstill feel that they are, you

(48:59):
know, and I'm not and I'm notpoopooing them but it doesn't
feel like that's the consensusanymore in a lot of crowds that
I talk to.
Right, like we don't have thatelephant in the room like they
used to be, like just a force.
Right like they.
They would go in when thelegislation was happening at the
local level.
They would come in in force andthey would try to.

(49:20):
They put up a good fight.
Right, they didn't always win,but they they would always come
in and fight hard.
Up in Washington they've beenpassing all sorts of crazy laws
to us.
It's insane what they're doingto us.
It's completely un-American,unconstitutional, but they're
just ramrodding them through.
They're not taking a vote.
Bob Ferguson, the old attorneygeneral for Jay Inslee he is now

(49:47):
our governor.
He was the one writing allthese laws for Inslee.
Now he's in there and he's justbramrodding these things down
our throat.
They're horrible.
They've outlawed AR-15 receiversales, threaded barrels,
high-capacity magazines.
We're worse than California now, like overnight.
Yeah, and so you know I would goand testify at the hearings,

(50:13):
you know, for these laws, andyou know I would show up and I'd
have, you know, a two minutespeech written, and sometimes
you can't even get in to speakit and if you do, they don't
listen to you, they don't wantto hear it.
It's like you're talking at awall, it.
You literally feel like it wasa waste of my time to even come

(50:37):
down and do this.
But I needed to do it, you know, like I just needed it to be
said or submitted.
Like if you don't get a chanceto talk, you submit your, your
speech to them, but it meansnothing to them.
Yeah, and, and it would be niceto have you know, like, like I

(50:57):
said, like what the NRA was,like, that elephant that would
come in and and topple somepeople over or make it hard on
them.
You know, and I know thatthere's groups out there doing
it, um, uh, and they're tryingto get bigger, but it just
seemed like, like I don't knowif you guys feel the same way,
but when we grew up it was likenra was oh yeah, boom, like they

(51:18):
were really in their face allthe time.
And now it feels like we havethree or four littler guys, but
they don't seem to have thepunch.
That, you know, and maybethat's just me, maybe that's
just my point of view.
You know, it's just kind of theway I feel, and maybe it's
because of the state I live inand I I feel like we're getting

(51:39):
railroaded and it doesn't seemlike too much is being done to
slow them down.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
Yeah, yeah, there definitely are a couple of those
groups out there that I like.
I think they're definitelybetter than the NRA these days,
but, like you said, they're alot smaller and it's going to
probably take a while, likewe've talked to the guys from
Second Amendment Foundation, didGOA come in?

Speaker 2 (52:05):
I don't know that GOA did.
I think Tara's actually at aGOA event tonight.
She's giving a speech there.
Saw her on the way out.
Our marketing expensecoordinator there at the range.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
Yeah, I do like them.
They definitely are smaller butthey're pretty aggressive with
their lawsuits and they've beenpretty successful in getting
some of these things overturned,which is good.
Especially since the Bruindecision that definitely has
helped a lot of these cases out.
Kind of changing a little bitof the standards I don't know
too much of the legal languagethere, but changing some of the

(52:37):
standards on how they look atwhether or not some of these
laws are unconstitutional andthings like that.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Well, and it takes a lot of money to fight.
You know, yeah, I mean flyingthese lawyers around state to
state and you know I mean thatit's I get it.
You know, and I and I can seewhy you're like nra had such a
monopoly.
They had a monopoly on thatwhole yeah thing for a long time
and I feel like you knowthere's maybe some bad actors

(53:05):
that kind of gave them a badname.
You know, and, and you knowpart of me wants to see him
recover, but part of me alsowants to see one of these other
organizations step up into theirplace and really do the job
better I kind of have mixedfeelings on that.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Like there's a lot of good smaller organizations that
are doing some good stuff.
Like like second amendmentFoundation is doing some really
excellent work.
Good group of people over there.
Adam is heading up a lot ofstuff.
Known him for a while.
He's kind of leading the chargeover there and really breathing
some life into thatorganization.
I think the NRA, I think it canstill be saved.
Like you had said, it's nowherenear the force that it used to

(53:42):
be.
You know, back in my lifetimeand yours, kind of growing up, I
think they have a lot ofinroads and a lot of like
infrastructure that a lot ofthese other smaller places don't
.
So I think if we can somehow Isay we like as the community you
know the second amendmentcommunity can kind of take back
the organization in a way.
I think there's a lot of goodinfrastructure there and a lot

(54:05):
of resources that they have.
It just needs to be applied inthe right direction instead of
you know $50,000 suits for WayneLaPierre and like all the other
.
You know excessive spending,that and just mismanagement of
the organization and you knowthe the failure to live up to
like what their mission shouldbe or used to be, you know, I
think if we can somehow takeback the organization, steer it

(54:28):
in the direction that needs tobe, where they're actually, you
know, advocating for our rightsand what they used to do,
basically, I think I would liketo see the NRA turned around.
I think that's probably be themost efficient way to do it.
But I do like seeing theseother organizations come up,
kind of playing both things atthe same time, hoping for the
best with NRA but preparing forthe worst by supporting these

(54:50):
other organizations toeventually take over.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
So I feel you on that 100 percent and I really hope
that some of these smallerorganizations like I wish them
the best.
You know they have a hard fight.
You know, and we all have ahard fight and somehow we're
going to have to figure out away to bolster them up.
And that's hard, it's hard todo, especially right now, like
we just got done talking abouthow much disposable income

(55:16):
people have.
You know everybody's trying tofigure out any way to clip, you
know, a little bit out of theirbudget so they can go out to eat
once a week.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
or you know like it's hard for people right now to to
start passing money out um,yeah, when just like the cost of
living, like actual living,like eating, you know, and
getting to and from work, andrent, like the, the cost that it
takes to actually, just, youknow, survive is is going up
exponentially, yeah, and thentrying to have money available

(55:47):
for anything else is is hard forthe vast majority.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
It's a big ask.
Right now it's a big ask and soit's a.
It's a uphill battle for usright now.
It's a double whammy and youknow I think the advocates
playing on it.
You know they're they're movingfast right now because I think
they feel like they can andthey're not getting as much
opposition as they might'vebefore.
You know, when thesefoundations are stronger and and

(56:11):
the people had more money tosupport them.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Like, if you look at, just like on a state by state
basis, how many restrictive gunlaws have been enacted in the
past, say, five years.
So you got Washington, oregon'sgoing through a lot, colorado
went through a bunch, they'vegone through some more.
Illinois, like you've got allthese.
Like California used to be, youknow, the poster child for
restrictive gun.
Um, you know restrictionsbasically said restrictive and

(56:38):
restrictions in the same center.
You know what I mean.
Yes, um, it used to be theposter child, but, like you said
, washington's not worse thanCalifornia.
Like they banned so much stuff.
Like California was one thing,but now, like you said, threaded
barrels, pistol rifle doesn'tmatter, you know, receiver sets,
like there's so much stuff thathas been banned in all these
other states just within aperiod of a couple years, really

(57:02):
A couple of years, really Acouple of legislative sessions.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
It's also scary because the way they worded a
lot of these laws up inWashington, the ones that I'm
talking about, they are verykind of ambiguous, very vague
Right Intentionally vague, andso I actually think that they're
kind of setting some of thesesmall gunshots up.

(57:25):
And I actually think thatthey're kind of setting some of
these small gunshots up andbecause when I read these laws,
I interpret it like this couldbe taken this way pretty easily.
And there's a lot of gunshotsnow that are, you know, and God
bless their soul and I hope thatthey're OK and I hope that
everything works out.

(57:45):
You know, and god bless theirsoul and I hope that they're
okay and I hope that everythingworks out.
But you know, they're basicallysaying that these are
replacement parts.
They're so they can sellreplacement barrels, replacement
muzzle, brakes, replacementthis, that, and I'm hoping that
they're not being set up by thegovernment to like, okay, okay,
we, we come in and we audit youand you just now sold 500 AR 15

(58:09):
barrels this year and you knowthis many upper receivers and
this many you know butt stocksor you know whatever.
And I hope that they're notgoing to come down on them and
like give them a fine that'sunrecoverable.
Yeah, like I feel like they'regiving them enough rope to hang
themselves and I and I hope, Ihope I'm wrong, like I I really
do, uh, but like I got thisweird gut feeling and I hope I'm

(58:34):
wrong that that's what they'redoing and I think you're spot on
.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Like that's, that's, I think that's a, a play right
out of the playbook.
Like I think that's definitelywithin the realm of
possibilities of what the powersthat be would want yeah,
because they're letting a lot ofthese small shops getting away,
getting away with it right now.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
But when it first happened it was like no, you
can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this.
And all of a sudden people werelike oh, we think we can.
Well, that gun shop's doing it,so I, nothing's happened yet.
Yeah, nothing's happened yet.
So I think we can get away withit too.
And I just I'm praying to Godright now that that's not what's
happening and that maybe somelawyers are actually
interpreting this thingcorrectly and they and they do

(59:13):
find the legal ground for themto do that.
And maybe it's just myignorance, not knowing enough
yet, but I feel like there's atrap being sprung here.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
So Nassim Taleb has a pretty good analogy that he
uses in one of his books, andit's basically like you have
this turkey that every day hegoes through it gets closer,
every day gets closer and closerto Thanksgiving.
It's May, woke up, got somefood, cool, nothing bad has
happened.
June comes along, every day hewakes up and nothing bad happens

(59:43):
.
And every day he gets closerand closer to Thanksgiving day,
which he's going to get his neckcut off and eaten.
So he gets this false sense ofsecurity that you know like.
Well, for the past 364 daysI've woken up every single day,
nothing bad has happened.
Like my situation is gettingbetter and better until
Thanksgiving day and then the axcomes.
So I think that could be what'shappening here.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
I hope not, I hope so too.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
I really, really, really hope not, I don't think
you're wrong, though I thinkthat's a very likely scenario,
yeah, and you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
but I also think that I probably need to do more.
In my community up there, youknow, we're all busy, right, and
that's an easy excuse, right,but when you do own a company,
you are busy.
Yeah, we, we, we push as hardas we can every day to take care
of our employees and to movethe thing forward.
But, um, I think that somehow Ineed to carve out a little bit

(01:00:41):
more time to get more involved,um I, and to figure out how to
be effective.
Yeah, you know, like it can't,I don't think just stand in
front of the capitol screamingand yelling is the best way to
get our point across.
Um, I'm not the guys that do itand I've been there, I've done

(01:01:01):
it with them but, like,sometimes I just don't feel like
they're getting the message,and so it's like how, how do we
be more effective, um, in ingetting the message across, you
know, in in a legal way, in apolite way?
I don't think, um, I don'tthink that you know the guys
that talk about going toviolence and stuff.

(01:01:22):
I'm totally against that, ahundred percent.
You know, like I don't thinkthat's the right way to do it.
Um, it's figuring out the rightway to approach this to where
it's respectful and to get theirrespect and get I think it's an
education thing like to getmore people to understand what
you know, what these firearmsare, what they're for and how

(01:01:43):
they're not being used Like themedia pushes it out.
You know what these firearmsare, what they're for and how
they're not being used, like themedia pushes it out.
You know, like, if you talk tosomebody that watches CNN every
day about an AR-15 and you askthem you know how many of them
you know kill people in theirexistence?
You know someone will say likeone in 10.

(01:02:04):
And it's like, are you kiddingme?
Me like it's not even in thatrealm.
No, it's not even on the sameplanet.
You know more people getstabbed to death and shot by ars
, you know, but they don't wantto.
But there's just this hugemisinformation, misconception
that's out there, that'spublicly spread.
And how do we fight that?
You know, like, how do wereally figure out how to combat

(01:02:29):
that in a smart way, to projectthe truth to people?
And I think that's a big thingthat we all got to figure out in
this industry.
You know, how do we convey themessage, the correct message,
the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
That was going to be exactly what I was going to ask.
Next is, like what can peopledo to actually, you know,
participate in that and actuallymake that that change happen,
become more involved, opening upthose channels, uh, educating

(01:03:08):
them on uh you know the truthabout firearms and their role in
our society?
Second amendment raising strongfamilies.
You know, just just beinginvolved in the community.
I think that's uh a good placeto start for a lot of people out
there.
You know, just doing that, Ithink will make a difference.
I know, for me, just talking topeople in my family that didn't
understand a lot of that stuffand explaining it to them, um,
and in a respectful way, andjust kind of having that

(01:03:31):
conversation, I think that, uh,that changed a few people's
minds, at least in my family.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
So I think the key word with that is respectful.
Yeah, you know, nobody likesbeing talked down to.
Yeah, including us.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Like there's yelling at somebody and like, just
you're not going to win somebodyover with facts.
Like you can, you can try andlay out all the facts and be as
logical as you can with it, butI think if somebody believes
that that deeply you have to,you have to go.
You have to reach them anotherway than through facts and logic
.
Like respectful discussion isdefinitely a very big key to it.

(01:04:06):
You have to reach them anotherway than through facts and logic
.
Respectful discussion isdefinitely a very big key to it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
There's a lot that goes into it, and if people
respect you as a person, do youhave more influence on their
thoughts?
Oh, absolutely right,absolutely so.
If you're a good person and youand you hold yourself
accountable and into a highstandard and and people around
you, they will regard you, andso your opinion or your thoughts

(01:04:34):
or your conversations carrymore weight with them, instead
of being an ass and in trying tojam stuff down their throat and
tell them they're stupid.
You know there's a differentapproach.
You know it's's a differentapproach.
You know it's the lead byexample thing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
Not too many people are going to get their minds
changed by being insulted.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
No, exactly being respectful and civil is, you
know there's got to be thefoundation of it.
And then you're also not tryingto reach the extremists.
You know, like we're trying toreach the people that are in the
middle, that maybe you know,that are in the middle that
maybe don't really have a strongopinion either way about guns
but because of the lack ofknowledge they're going to defer
to being on the anti-gun sideof the spectrum.

(01:05:12):
I guess they're going to bereally close to the middle.
They might be on the fence butthey're going to lean this way
just because of lack ofknowledge.
Right?
So if you, being the goodsteward and good representation
of the community, can kind ofhelp sway them the other way
through education and throughcivil discussion, you know, I
think that's how we can get morepeople to our side.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
And you know like one thing that I always tell people
, that kind of blows people awayand it kind of blows me away
too.
You know about a trace, right?
An FBI trace?
Oh yeah, okay.
You know about a trace, right,an FBI trace?
Oh, yeah, okay.
So anytime a firearm gets usedin a deadly crime, the FBI does
a firearm trace on it.

(01:05:53):
And so what they do is theylook at the manufacturer's name
and the serial number on thatand the model number, and they
go back to the manufacturer ofrecord and they start there and
they ask us where, who did yousell this firearm to?
And they follow that chain ofcustody as far down as they can
follow it until it either gotstolen or it was used in the

(01:06:15):
crime by the legal owner orwhatever right.
And so and that happens everytime one's using a violent crime
I make lower receivers everysingle day, all day long.
No joke, 24 seven right now.
24 seven.

(01:06:36):
I'm cutting it, I'm cutting alower right now.
And do you know how many tracesI've had since I've been in
business?
I'm guessing probably none,zero.
Is that unbelievable?
Like that, like I'm not sayingthat something I've made hasn't
been used in a in a horrible way.
I, I, I would.

(01:06:57):
I think that that would be afalse statement, but it's not
like this rampant thing.
Like you know, I make, I'vemade thousands, and thousands
and thousands of these thingsand I've gotten zero traces.
And I'm not knocking on woodhere.

(01:07:18):
I'm not, I'm not saying it'snot going to happen, because it
will Some idiots going to gettheir hands on one of these
things and do something stupid.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Usually getting stolen and then getting sold to
yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
People do dumb things .
It's a powerful tool, you know,but the narrative out there is
these things are just used allthe time and they're horrible
and a high percentage of themare used in crime.
And it's just not the case.
It's not even close to the case.
99.999% of gun owners are veryresponsible people and these

(01:07:55):
things never see anything but acloset, a gun range, a gun safe,
back in the closet, back in thesafe, a pickup truck.
You know, they just they're justa tool and they're a good way
to for families to bond and, andyou know, like best memories I
have are with my dad outshooting guns and building guns

(01:08:16):
in the garage.
Yeah, it's how we bonded.
It made me who I am today, youknow, and it was.
It was around firearms, youknow, just like some people it's
around fishing, or some peopleit's about around going out in
their boat, but whatever that is, it's building that family unit
which is the most importantthing we have in this country or
in this world is your familyunit, and some people bond

(01:08:40):
around different things.
Well, there's a whole communityof people in this country that
we bond around firearms, and Iknow it's weird for people in
other countries that aren't intofirearms to think of it that
way, but it is.
It's a culture here and it's animportant culture.
It's been here since thiscountry has been here.

Speaker 3 (01:08:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, the country was founded on
civilians having the same gunsthe military has.
You know that, know that wasthe whole revolution.
And without the civilian gunownership, you know there would
have been no revolution.
So it's a huge part of ourculture for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
Yeah, it's crazy times, man Indeed.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
Well, thanks for coming on, taking the time to
sit down with us and come downhere for a little bit and shoot
some videos.
Oh, little bit, oh man, shootsome videos and have some fun.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
Oh, this is cool man, your place is.
I knew that you had a coolfacility.
I didn't know it was this cool.
Thank you, it's impressive,especially when I went over to
your ranges and I realized howmany base 100-yard base do you
have?
1,200.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
1,200 ranges and I realized how many bays, 100 yard
base do you have, 1200 yardindoor base.
That's impressive.
It's the biggest in texas,biggest indoor range in texas,
biggest in texas right yeah it,it is an impressive facility you
have here.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
Congratulations, thank you.
This is very, very cool and andit seems like everybody you
have here working with you aretop-notch.
Oh, I mean, like I feel very athome here.
Everybody's very welcoming and,um, you know, I again I
couldn't be happier to be hereand and thank you enough to you
know, just come hang out withyou guys for a few days and

(01:10:21):
shoot some videos and, um, Ithink this is really cool.
I'm looking forward to where wego from here.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Yeah Well, thank you all for watching, listening,
consuming this.
However, you chose to, pleasego check out Rick and the crew
over there at Icon Defense,velocity Defense, and then
Killer Innovations as well, allthe stuff that they have going
on.
We're going to have some morevideos coming out on the YouTube
channel, so if you're notwatching this on YouTube, go

(01:10:48):
over there and check it out.
We're going to have a lot ofdifferent product videos from
Rick and those will kind of becoming out here at some point.
I don't know when this is goingto air.
I don't know when the otherones are going to air, but it'll
be there sometime.
Anyways, we appreciate y'allwatching.

(01:11:10):
Yeah, y'all have a good one andwe will see you next time.