BITCOIN IS ANARCHY. DEAL WITH IT | NVK on THE Bitcoin Podcast - THE Bitcoin Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I think people just need a reality check.

(00:01):
I love the meme is like, it don't matter.
Because it don't fucking matter.
It's literally the whole point of the system.
It is to make individuals matter less.
Be less effective at disrupting the network on a positive or negative.
The democratizing meme, all those like kumbaya things, like leave them behind.

(00:23):
All the democracy thing, leave them behind.
It's like Bitcoin is anarchy, right?
It does not have religious attribution.
It does not have political attributions.
It doesn't have fucking anything.
It's just a mathematical system, right?
With extremely conservative economic values, right?
And full anarchy.
First of all, if you don't want to lose your coins, just turn off Twitter.

(00:44):
Go stack more sats and fuck everything else, honestly.
Being worried about this stuff, it's when a lot of people sell.
No, stop that.
Just go fucking move on in your life.
Nobody gives a shit.
I feel like there are some very valid grievances.
The arguments for removing the op return limit were very poor.

(01:05):
But now there's a reality that filters don't work.
But you can also just do nothing.
Jesus can just fucking do nothing.
You don't have to do something.
You know, Core has been an absolute clusterfuck on how they handle users, businesses.
And then you have the nutside that went complete fucking batshit insane.
like you know like once you bring csam i mean like you know the conversation is over

(01:26):
like really like it's that's it just conversation is done that's where we're at now it's like you
know both sides are absolutely insufferable and so my my answer to that is i don't upgrade my node
and i welcome i seriously i i recommend everybody just stop upgrading this idea of upgrading software
is it's like this is windows mentality you know like i come from you know the free bsd side it's

(01:49):
Just don't upgrade.
You know, I have servers running
in 70 years, 10 years of time.
I'm going to upgrade.
It's not broken.
There is no major vulnerability that matters.
There is no major vulnerability in Bitcoin
that requires an update.
Bitcoin is not about like, you know, equality.
Bitcoin is about fairness.
It's a very, very different thing.
You know, it's like we have a fair network

(02:09):
that provides the same rules to everyone.
It doesn't matter if you're king
or if you're drunk or both.
You have the same rules, right?
Everybody gets to enjoy the same rules.
Nobody with more can rug you, right?
But that doesn't mean that your voice, your node,
is worth the same as massive exchange node.

(02:30):
At the end of the revolution, the revolutionaries kill each other, right?
It's always like that because all a revolutionary knows to do
is to be a revolutionary.
You know, people, it's the same reason why people come back from war
and start shooting other people.
It's very hard for you to step out of that fight mode and accept that shit is just fine.

(02:57):
It's like the go walk on grass meme.
Listen, I'm guilty too.
I'm on Twitter shitposting and participating in the many pointless discussions because it's entertaining.
But at the end of the day, I walk barefoot on some sand and I remember that the coins that I lost in a bolt accident are probably worth a lot.

(03:21):
And that's it.
Just accept that we're winning.
It's hard.
Losing is clearly more fun for some people.
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.
My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast.

(03:42):
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(04:04):
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(04:25):
Head to the show notes for links to find the show on centralized social media platforms and on Noster,
or just go directly to bitcoinpodcast.net. You'll find it all there.
And kind reminder that you can support this show by becoming a paid subscriber on Fountain.
Or don't, Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it.
Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.

(05:03):
time yeah i think i think you had just started and you had a different it was early you were early
yeah it's been two years yeah yeah that's that's actually wild time flies when you're making
bitcoin podcasts and nothing ever changes in the bitcoin space uh but yeah i'm excited to have you
back it's a lot has changed since then so it was like yeah it was almost two years ago it was like

(05:24):
beginning of 2024 when you came on. At that time, the kind of big debate of the day was around
inscriptions and ordinals and that kind of thing. Bitcoin wasn't pumping quite as hard. We were not
quite so bullish maybe. And now here we sit at, I think just at the time of recording, we just

(05:47):
popped back above like 120,000 infinitely printable fiat cuck bucks per Bitcoin.
And somehow still people are finding things to argue about.
And so I wanted to bring you on because you're always somebody who I feel you're you could
probably be accused by some of being like a, you know, a quote, a fence sitter, somebody
who's not deciding to take a side.

(06:07):
But I always view it as you you tend to call out the bullshit on both sides of any debate
when you see it, which is what everyone should do.
Right.
But I don't know, man.
So what's your vibe check right now on the Bitcoin ecosystem?
Does anything ever change?
Or is this just, you've been in Bitcoin a while.
Is this just the same as it ever was?
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's Bitcoin.

(06:29):
I mean, there is no sides.
That's the thing.
It's so fucking stupid.
Like, there is no sides.
There is no parties.
There is no voting.
There is no, like, people just bring their, like, commie, democratic baggage with them to Bitcoin, right?
And then they get confused.

(06:50):
There's a lot of people who gave people a lot of bad analogies for Bitcoin,
like voting and democratizing and shit like that.
None of that stuff has anything to do with Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is the most selfish money that ever existed before.
In a good way, sort of like an objectivism way.

(07:13):
right it's it's like you sort of advocating or really just protecting your bags by self-verifying
on your node with the software version that you want is all that really matters I mean everything
else is just noise yeah it's it's really funny I was I had Tidwell on the show recently and he

(07:37):
basically he had a quote that I love which was you know your your relay policy doesn't make you
a different Bitcoiner. It doesn't mean you support
a different Bitcoin. We still have the
same consensus rules.
We're still Bitcoiners. We're agreeing on the
same things. Everything else is just
like, that's just
your opinion, man.
The title of our last show that we did

(07:58):
together, I put it as
a quote from you, which is, Bitcoin is
winning. Stop worrying. And I thought
that was pretty good advice.
I don't know what it is about
the human psyche that
it's like Bitcoin trades sideways for a little while.
And Bitcoiners, instead of being more externally focused
at existential threats, turn more inward

(08:19):
and start getting at each other's throats.
And I don't know if that's just like-
It's not a new phenomenon, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, like at the end of the revolution,
the revolutionaries cue each other, right?
Like it's always like that
because like all a revolutionary knows to do
is to be a revolutionary.
Like, you know, people like, you know,

(08:39):
it's the same reason why people come back from war
and start shooting other people.
You know, it's very hard for you to step out of that fight mode,
you know, and accept that shit is just fine.
You know, it's like, you know, it's like the go walk on grass meme.

(09:01):
You know, listen, I'm guilty too.
I'm on Twitter shitposting and, you know,
like participating in the in the pointless like the many pointless discussions because it's
entertaining but at the end of the day like you know i walk barefoot on some sand and i remember
that like you know like the my my uh the the coins that i lost in a bolt accident are you know

(09:25):
probably worth a lot you know and that's it it's like just just accept that you know we're winning
like it's hard losing is clearly more fun for some people yeah it it is funny i'm so sorry to
hear about that boating accident you should really be more careful when you're out there on boats but
i understand i lost i lost my keys as well in a boating accident so if anybody sees them you know

(09:49):
let me know but i think it's strange to me that we can have i mean i guess how do i say this
everybody just seems to be talking past each other and not actually like I it's almost like
this search for purpose and meaning and like this feeling that you need to every person feels they

(10:10):
need to somehow save Bitcoin like the Bitcoin is somehow right on the verge of dying at any given
time and that it needs to be saved and if you don't act right now you know it is it is going
to fall into the abyss, never to recover.
And it's just kind of funny.
We have a lot of main character syndrome.
People want to feel important.

(10:32):
People want to feel like they matter.
People want to feel like their node matters.
This whole meme about the plebs and the running the nodes,
a complete idiosity.
It was invented for people to feel good about themselves,
but no, that's not how it works.
It's just like keeping a node powered on on the internet
doesn't do anything to Bitcoin.
because if it did, Bitcoin could be cymbal.

(10:54):
Imagine if node count mattered.
You could just have a massive credit card like state actors do
and just go on Amazon and run a million nodes.
This is something that I thought this had been discussed ad nauseum
to the point where most people understood this,
that just the act of having a node online

(11:15):
doesn't actually do anything meaningful.
Again, I went back to our last discussion almost two years ago, and I was looking through some of the notes on it, and we literally talked about we went through economic nodes because there was a big amount of confusion at that time about what an economic node is.
And here we are again with apparently people not understanding what an economic node is.

(11:35):
And it's just like, I mean, is it worthwhile for you to take like the one minute to explain why an economic node matters?
like again for people, for those who didn't see the first episode
and haven't been paying attention apparently.
Can you break that down for us?
And I feel bad even asking because you probably talked about this,
you know, 10,000 times for you personally,

(11:55):
but can you break that down a little bit for people
so that they understand what you mean?
So what is an economic node?
An economic node is a node that self-validates, right, transactions, right?
So Coinbase sending and receiving transactions in their node,
in the name of 1 million users

(12:16):
is a very important node in the network, right?
They're essentially representing 1 million people's money
and it's relaying those transactions,
it's checking those transactions, right?
So if they diverged,
we would have a serious economic problem in Bitcoin, right?

(12:37):
Can you imagine like a million people's worth of coins
just takes a different fork now.
That's a problem, right?
So that is a node that has economic capacity
and economic participation in the Bitcoin space, right?
You know, a plebe node with a few cents there, right?

(12:58):
Like, does that node matter?
No.
I mean, I know it sucks, but it doesn't, right?
Bitcoin is not about like, you know, equality.
Bitcoin is about fairness.
It's a very, very different thing.
You know, it's like we have a fair network that provides the same rules to everyone.

(13:18):
It doesn't matter if you're king or if you're drunk or both.
You have the same rules, right?
Like everybody gets to enjoy the same rules.
Nobody with more can rug you, right?
But that doesn't mean that your voice, your node is worth the same as, you know, a massive exchange node.
or Michael Saylor's node is worth a lot.

(13:45):
He's representing a lot of shareholders there.
But here's the funny part.
His personal node, it kind of starts to diminish a bit
how important it is.
Is he going to dump his 10,000 coins personally?
Would that hurt in the day trade candle?
Sure, but does that matter?

(14:05):
No.
right like this is this is why it's so important for people to understand that like you know in
the aggregate um you know it matters is is rough we never know what the number is it's not possible
to know what the number is is an ever-changing system dynamic right um so you know if if a single

(14:29):
human being decides to fork off, well, I mean, good luck.
If a group of people want to fork off, but
it turns out that they are not going to carry with them the hash rate
and a lot of the economic capacity of the network, well, that's
great to get an airdrop.
We get to sell the coins that are part of that fork

(14:52):
and inform that fork that they're worth zero now.
and we've literally seen this happen i mean it's not this isn't like uh this isn't you
imagining this like we this has literally happened at multiple times that's correct
and you know so like i think people just need a reality check it's like you know i love the meme
is like you know i don't matter because you don't fucking matter like it's literally the whole point

(15:19):
of the system it always to make individuals matter less you know like be less effective
at disrupting the network on a positive or negative.
And, you know, like the democratizing meme,
all those like kumbaya things, like leave them behind.

(15:39):
All the democracy thing, leave them behind.
It's like Bitcoin's anarchy, right?
It does not have religious attribution.
It does not have political attributions.
It doesn't have fucking anything.
It's just a mathematical system, right?
with extremely conservative economic values, right?
And for anarchy.

(16:00):
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(17:05):
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Yeah.
Well, I think that that's tough for people to actually grasp because we don't have anything that looks like that.
There's nothing that's like that in the fiat system to the extent that Bitcoin is.

(17:28):
This is a new paradigm.
So I empathize with people.
And obviously, I didn't understand it right away.
You know, like, you know, the only person who understood it right away, I guess, was Satoshi.
Everybody else had to, you know, kind of like.
We all get it wrong.
It's totally like it's a very complicated new paradigm.
Yeah.
like you know it's it's very similar to you know like oh there is electricity now there wasn't

(17:50):
before it's like you know is this like witchcraft right like people are confused for fucking 100
years right like i mean the posters of when the electricity was sort of like starting to be
publicized they're amazing it's like oh my god this is witchcraft oh you touch you die you know
it's like yeah you know that that's how it works it's either accept that this thing is awesome and

(18:11):
is going to go somewhere.
So you have that sort of like a bit of a,
some, you have some faith
that the system will go somewhere.
You have some belief.
You do that with a lot of agency
by reading what you can understand,

(18:33):
you know, and you essentially have a long position on it, right?
Or don't.
Nobody gives a shit.
Like, you know, sorry, we don't need you.
You know, I know it sucks to hear it, but we don't need you.
We don't need anybody.
We don't need core.
We don't need knots.
We don't need anybody.
This thing is going to keep like TikTok another block.

(18:55):
I'm still running client 22.
It works.
You know, does it work for lightning nodes?
No, but I'm not running lightning.
I'm talking about Bitcoin base layer works, right?
You know, is it nice to have lightning work?
Yes.
you know should we change bitcoin to to change because even further to make lightning work
probably not you know it's like you have a system that works like have some fucking respect

(19:19):
it's i think it's hard for people to say or to acknowledge that oh it's going to be fine without
me like right sure does it need everyone in the collective to use it to even to exist like if
nobody was using bitcoin yeah it wouldn't like it wouldn't matter anyway right but we're all here
But you as an individual, like you have, you're not going to save Bitcoin.

(19:43):
It's admirable.
No, you're not here to save Bitcoin.
I just got here and I'm here to save Bitcoin.
No, you're not.
No, you're not.
And everybody finds it out fast.
And if they don't, they rage quit.
Yeah.
Are we about to enter a season of rage quitting?
Oh, absolutely.
I can totally see it.
I already have a personal list just for the fun of it.
I already have a list of people I think will quit.

(20:04):
Got it.
Got it ready to go.
Okay.
Personal wagers.
I don't publicize these things.
I don't wish harm on anyone.
I love all these people.
I really do.
I think everybody is like,
regardless of their role,
it takes many types.
It takes many kinds of people
to build something huge.

(20:26):
So in that sense, I love everybody.
But realistically speaking,
we know that people will not be able to accept
and they will rage quit.
It's just the natural course of Bitcoin.
I had to bring up this.
Oh, there is a poster.
It's one of my favorite posters.
All the electricity.
I mean, it's amazing.
Like you just look at this, you know,

(20:47):
I mean, the guy, I love the skull that's in the,
on the, you know, electrical pole,
just for added benefit, the light bulb.
Like, it's all just incredible.
You got the constable running away from it,
you know, just amazing stuff.
But, and that's, I feel like where,
that's kind of where we're at right now.
It's like everyone's literally going to die and Bitcoin is going to fail if we don't do something right now.

(21:11):
I mean, when you go hyperbolic on Bitcoin, you tend to lose the crowd.
Don't lose the audience.
Don't lose the audience.
Because once you lose the audience, it's very, very hard to get it back, right?
And I think both sides made some good arguments.
Both sides made terrible arguments.

(21:34):
And now both sides are losing the audience.
Yeah.
Because I think people are just, the average pleb out there is just tired of it.
The suit coiners haven't cared this entire time.
Well, because they know it's working.
Yeah.
You know, like, you know, they did their due diligence, right?
They saw the blocks are coming, the clients are working, you know, like the fuck they care.

(21:56):
All you have to do is open, you just have to open your node once in a while to sync it,
check the next few transactions that went in your treasury are good, they're good, great,
close the laptop, move on.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's like, meanwhile, plebs are whipping themselves into a frenzy or being whipped
into a frenzy.
I don't know which one it is.

(22:17):
It seems to me, I mean, so you've, I think, done a good job of calling out on both, again,
quote, both sides.
I'm using this just because this is the way it's being talked about.
but on quote both sides of this quote debate calling out what you see as kind of improper or
just just bad you know decision making processes is it worthwhile to talk about that at all in

(22:39):
terms of like what okay listen guys here's if if you want to make it through this without losing
your mind and rage quitting here's how this conversation could have been approached a bit
better do you want to talk that about that at all or is it we can also skip it because i'm good with
that too i mean i can put like a very small two cents it's just like i mean listen who am i to
tell people what to do but you know it's like first of all if you don't want to lose your coins

(23:05):
just turn off twitter go go stack more sats and fuck everything else honestly like you know being
worried about this stuff it's when a lot of people sell i remember the dms when you know uasf was
happening and people were like hey man you know i'm scared i'm gonna sell my coins for now until
the set. No, stop that. Just go fucking move on in your life. Nobody gives a shit.

(23:29):
You know, I feel like there are some very valid grievances. The arguments for removing the
up return limit were very poor. Some big names weighed it in. They're also not ideal, like
not very convincing arguments. But now there's a reality that the filters don't work.

(23:52):
But you can also just do nothing You know like Jesus can just fucking do nothing You don have to do something You know Core has been an absolute clusterfuck
on how they handle users, businesses.
You know, I think it's sort of like,
maybe it's just like the more Gen Z sort of vibe to it,

(24:15):
where, you know, they're not as tactful
or as laid back and can handle the heat.
as easy.
And, you know, again, they're losing the audience.
You know, most of them are preoccupied with Layer 2.

(24:36):
You know, there's a lot of that.
And, you know, the people that don't care about Layer 2,
well, you know, it's like they don't care about your preferences.
Like it's, you know, Bitcoin is working, right?
That's not to say that it's not important to have Layer 2.
Like, none of these things are absolute
and there's many ways to look at them, right?
And then you have the dot side
that went complete fucking batshit insane.

(24:58):
Like, you know, like once you bring CSAM,
I mean, like, you know, the conversation is over.
Like, really, like it's, that's it.
Just conversation is done.
So yeah, I mean, that's where we're at now.
It's like, you know, both sides are absolutely insufferable.
And so my answer to that is I don't upgrade my node.

(25:20):
and I welcome,
seriously,
I recommend everybody
just stop upgrading.
This idea of upgrading software
is like,
this is Windows mentality.
You know,
like I come from,
you know,
the FreeBSD side.
It's just don't upgrade.
You know,
I have servers running
in 70 years,
10 years of time.
I'm going to upgrade.
It's not broken.

(25:40):
There is no major vulnerability
that matters.
There is no major vulnerability
in Bitcoin client
that requires an update.
You know,
all the vulnerabilities
are more sort of like
of the category of like, yeah, they can crush your node.
Yeah, well, you start the laptop again, you know.
None of my nodes have been taken down.
So, you know, clearly not a widespread problem.

(26:02):
And, you know, most people are not running Lightning
self-custodially because self-custodial Lightning
is fully broken, you know, just being very honest.
You know, Lightning is great.
Custodial Lightning, fantastic, works.
You know, upgrade those nodes.
Yeah, I think I'll leave it at that. Otherwise, I'm just going to start inciting more hate.

(26:25):
A little bit more bland.
No, fair enough. So I mean, and again, this is, it's very funny, people, people automatically assume in in this conversation that if you say something that is against what they view as against their opinion of how they perceive things to work, they view you as the enemy, you must be a shill for the other side.

(26:48):
right and when in reality it's like no you can just i can just think that you know the options
on the table are not actually addressing the things that you think they're addressing like
i haven't upgraded my node in i don't know a couple of no it's been i mean at least a year
a year plus maybe maybe more like i that's that's what i've told people as well as you know look you
no bitcoin nodes are meant to be backwards compatible like each node implementation

(27:11):
upgrade like that's the whole thing it needs to be backwards compatible right
yep and so in like unless as you said there's a major some sort of security vulnerability that's
discovered something like that you shouldn't need to update your note but if you want to go for it
and if you want to run knots go for it like do whatever you want but just be realistic about what
that choice actually means and if it is actually doing the things that you are being told it's

(27:33):
doing in terms of you saving bitcoin and that's kind of where it's like we should be yeah like
live and let live go touch grass it's all going to be okay bitcoin is winning um and let's remember
this we are replacing a absolutely clusterfucked fiat system and this is uh as messy as this might
be in bitcoin man it's it's still a heck of a lot better than that and i feel like that is uh

(27:56):
that is forgotten even by bitcoiners which is which is shocking yeah yeah i i did want to ask
just so more broadly, like, cause I think we've said enough about the, the, the current, uh,
current drama for now. And it's been just drained ad nauseum by so many people on so many podcasts.
Uh, and, and I, the last thing I'll say is I would love to know, like also be scared to know the

(28:19):
cumulative time that has been spent just like debating and debating and rehashing these same
points with people talking past each other. Like it's in terms of man hour years, like it's,
it's decades of cumulative time that have just been burned on this,
but okay,
whatever.
Where do you sit on more broadly,
like zooming out a little bit,

(28:41):
quote,
upgrading Bitcoin versus maintaining Bitcoin.
Do you,
are there privacy and scaling upgrades that you think need to happen and
should happen in Bitcoin?
Or are you more of the opinion that,
Hey,
what we have works well,
let's not mess that up.
Let's focus on scaling on other,
you know,
other higher layers, let's say?

(29:02):
I think there's just two things
that must be very separated.
One is consensus changes.
The other one is non-consensus changes, right?
To Bitcoin Core, the client.
I mean, like, I really wish the, you know,
and this is like idiotic of me to even think about,
like wishing that somebody else would do something
is like, you know, it's like pissing in the wind, right?

(29:25):
I mean, you know, like, who am I to wish
the core went in a different direction, right?
I mean, like I should just like, you know,
pull my sleeves and go do it myself, right?
Like this is a full meritocracy, right?
But if any core person is listening,
like, you know, go build an indexer on Bitcoin Core.
Like it's nothing to do with consensus,

(29:47):
but like, you know, we shouldn't need to need
like Electrum server for SPV light nodes, right?
Like Bitcoin Core should have an indexer.
Bitcoin Core should support PIP39.
Like there's a bunch of like low hanging fruit things that the market needs, business needs, right?
That like would come a long way in also buying goodwill from industry for the client.

(30:14):
Now on consensus changes, I mean, you know, like there's personal preferences, but like, you know, maybe they're misguided for me too.
I'd love to have Covenants just because I want to have on-chain vaults.
I want the security to be not code card-based.
I want the security to be Bitcoin block-based.

(30:40):
There's a lot of design space there.
But unfortunately, the Covenant conversation gets hijacked by layer twos.
Love to them. I know they need it.
But like, you know, just talking from pure sort of selfish necessities, right?
Like, you know, and I think that, you know, for example, the covenant discussions, you know, if they would go make the case for all these economic actors that they can have amazing on-chain vaults, you'd be a lot more palatable of a change than talking about how they want to pay for, you know, feeding chickens on the internet, right?

(31:15):
Can you talk a little bit about just for folks who may not be totally familiar, the basics of what covenants are and how these on-chain vaults work?
Because it's something that seems kind of like pretty cool to me, like as genuine, like it would be useful for, I mean, and not just for businesses.
So right now, if you want, the spending condition right now is on the output, right?

(31:36):
So, you know, like when you send it, like you're sending into a multi-sig address.
Therefore, that address requires the two signatures for you to move to the next address, right?
What we're trying to do is the spending conditions to be on the input.
So that means that you can move with spending conditions from that contract.

(31:57):
So, for example, let's say, you know, you create a vault and that Bitcoin address itself knows that it cannot be spent unless it meets some conditions.
I'm putting it very crudely to see if it makes sense.
But the point is, we could create a vault saying, for example,

(32:19):
the money doesn't move from here more than one Bitcoin a month.
Count it in blocks, of course.
But that kind of amazing spending conditions.
Spending policies are how you find amazing security
and still remain functional.
right because it's easy to put like you know a private key under the ocean and just leave it

(32:41):
there you know it's very hard for somebody to get it right um now if you have um you know in order
to become capable of signing and having security around that signing operationally that's really
where the magic is at because that's where the trade-offs and the balances come in right and

(33:03):
And being able to do that with on-chain policies versus cold card policies would be a huge upgrade.
Yeah, I mean, and again, this seems like one of those things, I would assume there's not as much, let's say, general resistance to this.
It's just there's maybe not as much general knowledge about this.

(33:23):
Is that fair?
I mean, like there is some FUD around it.
You know, there is some core FUD around the fact that there is no demand for it, which is absolutely absurd.
You know, there was no demand for up return limit removal.
You know, and that was changed.
So that pisses me off.

(33:46):
There is, you know, there is definitely like amazing applications that's already been demonstrated, you know, like as well as you can do without changing Bitcoin.
Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, we, I mean, there were some fud around how, you know, like the governments can get into the covenants and whatever.

(34:08):
Like it's the same with multisig, they, you know, the government wanted to force you to be a cosigner, you know, of your keys or something.
So like, you know, idiotism.
And yeah, I mean, I don't, you know, but it does change Bitcoin, which is like, I think the only fair, real sort of negative to it is like it changes Bitcoin.

(34:30):
Right.
Like now we have a fundamental change to it.
Do you think it's actually something that can't like, is something that's going to be implemented eventually, but it's just going to take a lot more time just because of the fundamental nature of the change?
I don't know, like, you know, some days I wake up thinking that we can still do some changes on Bitcoin.

(34:52):
Some days I wake up saying that we're fully ossified.
So I don't.
I mean, the only change, there's only one change we have to make to Bitcoin.
We have to fix the Unix timecode.
There is no choice on that.
The day will come and it's going to have to be changed, period.
Or Bitcoin stops.
Can you, and again, just for folks, can you explain that one a little bit just in layman's terms?

(35:15):
I feel like that's not even a controversial one.
That's just like this needs to be done.
It's just the encoding.
Think about it as just like the encoding.
Old computers used to do the encoding of dates in a certain way,
and they're done differently now.
So in order to remain compatible with computers,
you have to fix that.

(35:36):
It really is that.
Think about it like the best way to think about it is Y2K.
If they had not fixed the computers,
like you know some computers crashed like it's similar to that do you think uh just on this topic
of ossification because i think people often get confused and think ossification is like some choice

(35:57):
that happens like okay and now we'll ossify but it's really not a choice right it's it's more of
just a natural result of uh of a process that happens is that a fair way to describe it and i
I mean, I think you're kind of arguing maybe that we may already be at that point where we are sufficiently ossified, where we're just probably not going to change at any meaningful way at the consensus level.

(36:21):
Is that your general kind of, let's say, base level assumption at this point?
I think the best way to look at it is maybe unpopular.
But realistically speaking, Bitcoin really is as ossified as the people at the time are not into changing it.

(36:45):
Because at the end of the day, you know, there is nothing preventing people from 50 years from now from changing the limit of Bitcoin.
You make tail emissions?
The supply. No, the supply. Yeah.
So, you know, there's nothing really holding them back.
Right.
Right. So, you know, like, except for economic forces, right, that would say my family stacked all the way to now.

(37:11):
Fuck you, you're not going to change the limit. Right.
But the point is Bitcoin can be changed.
It's not like it's written in stone somewhere and, you know, the humans around it can't go and just, you know, the humans can do whatever they want.
They might fork off, they might not.
So I think it's important to realize that.

(37:32):
For example, if we did have a quantum advancement in 20 years from now,
that require a change, we might have to change Bitcoin.
But that's something for the humans that are dealing with it at that time,
to deal with it at that time.
You can't control the future.

(37:54):
It's like what trust lawyers always say,
like okay you can set up your trust as tight as you want this way but like you can't really ruin
your children after your dad they're gonna they might figure out a way of breaking the trust rules
you know what i mean it's like your dad get over it do you do you think uh that there's any

(38:14):
reasonable chance of a hard fork happening any time in the near future like is that something
that's it's on your radar like it's right it's not gonna happen like you know i get
No airdrop for us then.
Yeah, no.
I mean, we could get airdrops.
We can definitely get airdrops.
But I mean, I don't think there will be a successful change to Bitcoin

(38:38):
in the near future.
It's just not going to happen.
And it's designed this way.
The more people who don't agree with each other,
don't like each other, have different preferences than each other,
you know share the same rule set share the same network there's less likely you're gonna see

(39:01):
changes happening right it's like it's like getting like you know israelis and palestinians
to agree to turn the whole space into a massive christian swimming pool
both sides are gonna say fuck you right like that's a good analogy do not just know right
Like, I mean, so essentially that's what I'm talking about.

(39:22):
It's just you have more opposing sides sharing a concern, right?
Like you can't, like, it's very difficult to make a massive change that is unilateral by any side.
Do you think on the quantum side of things, because I've seen so many different opinions on this.
Somebody, I don't know, recently, maybe I was just trolling, but was like, if we don't upgrade Bitcoin to be quantum resistant by next year, it's all over.

(39:48):
and I'm like, well, okay.
Again, whenever people put a timeline or something
or make an assumption about like a deadline in Bitcoin,
they're literally full of shit
and they're trying to take your coins.
I mean, it really is that simple.
I mean, it's really like it's phishing 101, right?
Like from a social engineering perspective.
Think about it this way.

(40:08):
Think about Bitcoin as a gigantic options market, right?
Like, it's like, you know, we're all long, right?
So, like, if it was true that quantum is problematic, you would see, you know, the people who have asymmetric information starting to sell, right?

(40:33):
Like, why would they tell anyone about, like, because they don't want the selling to happen while they're selling, right?
They want the best price possible.
so you know it's not yeah it's just you know it's a like the prediction market will go the other way
right um i i don't think you have to worry about any of this stuff and and if this stuff sort of

(41:00):
worries you to turn off the internet and go focus on the stuff you understand
go go touch some grass i you know i like i do i did have just on the topic of touching grass i do
have one more question about the core versus knots uh debacle um is bitcoin gonna die when
core v30 comes out i i i don't think so i don't think it'll make any difference i don't think i

(41:23):
also just for people to understand is that the majority of the network doesn't upgrade to new
software like right away ever you know i don't like unless they need unless they need the specific
thing that's being changed like it's not people don't upgrade you know it takes a long time for
miners to upgrade um you know like yeah it's just stop worrying uh i i had to i had to get that one

(41:54):
in there just to to make sure you know this way when bitcoin dies i'm gonna point back and be like
you told me it would be okay nvk you son of a gun i'm kidding i'm kidding yeah i mean you know it's
It's like, thankfully, it's not a securities law.
This is a commodity, right?
It's like we can speculate.
Speaking of securities, actually, I've got to say,

(42:14):
so you started BitcoinTreasuries.net a while ago.
I mean, it's been a number of years now.
I don't know how long you've had the domain,
but like the site's been active for several years,
long before the current influx of Bitcoin treasury companies.
Question one is, how many domains do you actually own?
ballpark and then question two is did you i mean were you uh were you ever skeptical that this would

(42:39):
blow up the way it did or did you kind of like know like yeah this is going to be a this is going
to be a hot domain no i don't have any domains did you lose those in a voting accident that's right
okay um so you know bitcoiners likes cars things right it's just it's like it's the mindset you
You can't help yourself.

(43:00):
But remember, nobody owns domains.
People rent domains.
It's just like real estate.
You rent domains.
You stop paying, it goes away.
Bitcoin is the only thing you actually own.
So the treasury, what's funny is that the treasury sort of like main concept has been around since the very early days of Bitcoin.

(43:25):
It's not a new concept.
The idea is kind of simple.
It's like any rational state actor,
state actor, any rational economic actor
that sees a better money will sort of acquire it, right?
And like, you know, publicly traded companies

(43:46):
are no different than that.
And, you know, it's just sort of like,
again, it's like I love that meme Bitcoin,
everything is working according to plan, right?
Like, you know, it really is just that.
It's, you know, you have, you know, you have just people buying better money, storing it, and then trying to figure out how to financialize it because that's what Wall Street does.

(44:14):
But, you know, even the publicly traded companies that don't financialize it, like they're just sort of sitting on a pile.
There's lots of them that do that too.
you win because it's just
Bitcoin appreciates faster
that the dollar is dying and then everything else
I mean you can penny stock, you can gamble

(44:38):
but with more predictable things
Bitcoin is the only thing that
is consistent in the last 16 years
Yeah, I think a lot of people
uh and myself i play around with with stocks occasionally with like a very small like
a hilariously small amount of money just to remind myself of what a bad trader i am and then be like

(45:02):
oh yep see you should have just put this in bitcoin you moron um with a few with a few
exceptions um but usually it's like nope should just put it in bitcoin and lived your life and
you would have been better off in the long run should have been podcasting more instead of looking
at those price charts uh but but i think that a lot of people like have perhaps come to that
realization, even with these treasury companies, just because a lot of people bought in on top of

(45:25):
the hype for some of these in the, you know, earlier this summer, and then have now watched
Bitcoin kind of chug along sideways. Now Bitcoin rips. But during that time, treasury companies
kind of took a little dip. But the other thing is like, we're so early in this. We're really,
we're so early in Bitcoin broadly. Like, I don't think we're even out of the innovators phase. If
you want to get into the tech adoption curve, right? Like we're, we're, we're certainly not

(45:49):
even close to the early majority, like not even close. And so I think it's going to be really
fascinating to sort of see how this develops over the coming years. We're also, I think,
about to enter a massive liquidity push environment where like things have been like,
as far as fiat goes, things have been like relatively tight for the past couple of years.

(46:11):
And I don't know, but it's going to get pretty crazy when they turn things back on. I'm just,
I don't know, maybe the government kind of just takes away more of the Fed's cartel autonomy and things get really interesting.
I don't know.
Are you, I mean, you don't have to answer this if you're not comfortable with it.
Do you play around with these treasury companies at all?
Or are you just like focus entirely on stacking Bitcoin and obviously building your companies to stack more Bitcoin?

(46:38):
I mean, like, you know, I am a caveman Bitcoiner.
Right. So like, you know, the bolting accident did and then, you know, never do anything different than that.
And but, you know, like I do have like, you know, some trading accounts that are part of my fiat lives.

(47:00):
You know, like I do have other businesses and have other things going on.
And sometimes you need things that are a little bit more like a fiat universe compatible.
Right. So, yeah, I do own some of the stocks.
I own other stocks.
But the point is, you know, the majority of the people out there, you know, they're not going to have a UTXO.

(47:29):
You know, there is not enough UTXOs for everybody.
I've done the math.
There's a few tweets.
Yeah, yeah.
Seriously, like there's just not enough UTXOs for everybody.
There really isn't.
Like, so the issue is like, how do these people like, you know, so they're not going to get the freedom, right?

(47:53):
The self part of Bitcoin they not going to enjoy that part So like can they at least get some upside from the debasement you know against debasement against everything else
So, you know, they will find sort of allegories to the Bitcoin, you know, play, right?

(48:15):
If their pensions are exposed to, you know, like partially to Bitcoin through a Bitcoin treasuries company, like at least their pensions don't go to zero.
Right. I mean, like, you know, like I think like because the doomerist brain is very lazy.

(48:39):
Right. Like they are not trying to find solutions.
They're just pointing out problems. Right.
So it's very easy to go to, oh my God, civil war and 60102 and this and that and everybody shooting each other.
But it's not how the world works, right?
Like there is a lot of inertia.
Even during big wars, I mean like the majority of the populations in the countries that were not being the ones being bombed, like it was life as usual, you know?

(49:04):
and so you know if i i think we're gonna end up unless we have like some crazy black swans that
god knows what happens right but you know i i think what we have is like some sort of like a
a peaceful slow uh uh like monetary replacement you know it's the great replacement

(49:28):
you got to be careful with that one i know i don't know if that gets you in trouble anymore
on the internet um but youtube will add a flag to this later that's a great replacement yeah you
can you can beep it for youtube theory that's right no beep it for uh beep it for youtube i don't care
the the but the point is you know like i i think you know it's in everybody's interest to have

(49:52):
the majority of the world at peace right because even if you profit from war right like even if
you're like a source type, right? And you're like, you know, like, fuck yeah, like, let's
rate you on the fuck out of the other country, right? Even if you profit from oil, it's like
war over there. You still don't want war where you live. You know, you still want peace where

(50:15):
you live. So it's in everybody's interest to sort of like change the wheel of this car
while it's still driving, right?
It's going to be tricky.
But, you know, it's already happening
when you think about it, right?
Like, you know, people don't save in dollars anymore.

(50:39):
They save in dollar-denominated stocks, right?
Like people's savings are in stocks
or they are in commodities, right?
So like we've already like demonetized the dollar in that sense, right?
Like it's just that we still need a unit of account

(51:00):
and that's what the military comes in, right?
Like when Americans say, you know, my taxes, you know,
like what does the military do?
Well, they make sure you have the unit of account.
It's worth a lot and it costs a lot of money to maintain the unit of account.
You know, is that a good thing?
Probably not.
It's not great.
but that's why you can buy a tv for cheap deliver the same day from amazon in your own currency right

(51:26):
um it is incredible same day amazon delivery just never ceases to blow my mind you can't have amazon
same day for cheap without the army like it doesn't work like that right like that wealth would have
been more distributed uh or or it would have shifted somewhere else um so anyways um the point

(51:48):
is like, you know, the treasury companies,
you know, like they're just a backdoor into the system.
You know, it really is.
It's like we are infecting the financial system.
It's not the way around, right?
Like you can still hold your Bitcoin.
Like nobody's preventing you from doing that.
I literally make products for us to do that, right?
Like, I mean, it doesn't get more caveman than a cold card.

(52:10):
But like, you know,
and that's why I'm at the two sides of this spectrum.
It's like, you know, like I think we need to financialize
and backdoor into the system
so that we don't have like fucking civil wars, right?
So that everybody enjoys the benefit of number go up,
even if they don't own Bitcoin, right?

(52:30):
And on the other side, we can have our freedom
and be cavemen, you know,
like they don't have to participate in the system
in a certain way.
I think that's a much healthier way to go about it.
And it's clearly playing out.
So, you know, I hope I'm not wrong
that things don't change.
I mean, things could undoubtedly get very messy

(52:52):
and I think will.
I don't think it's necessarily,
I mean, if you subscribe to the fourth,
you know, general fourth turning theory,
like we're undoubtedly in the midst of one.
There's a lot of other cycles
that appear to be converging right now as well,
whether societal, economic or otherwise.
Things could and probably will get extremely messy,

(53:12):
but we have these incredible tailwinds
that we've never had before, which are Bitcoin.
And I think AI is an important one to mention as well.
Like you've got deflationary money
and probably the most deflationary technology
to exist thus far in terms of AI.
And it's going to be really interesting
to see how that plays out

(53:32):
because the fiat world doesn't work
when everything gets cheaper forever.
Like it needs things to get more expensive forever.
It's kind of like part of it.
Flat screen TVs just happen to be able
to outpace inflation and continue to deflate,
which is you know incredible um for us as a consumer like that's the the beauty of the pseudo
free market that we have right is that we can keep getting certain things i mean it's just the

(53:53):
marginal cost of production of most things go go to you know not zero but it goes to you know as low
as as you can right like and and as we come up with solutions to get around scarcities
right like it gets even cheaper so you know like you have materials that were scarce and no longer
scarce. You know, we're going to get

(54:15):
gold is going to have this day too.
You know, we're going to get to a point where gold is no
longer scarce.
You know, like they keep
on finding more gold and
you know, eventually, you know, it's worth
minus the mass. You know, it's like
but you know, like a lot of these things
have these problems because they have utility
value.
You know, utility value is not a good thing.

(54:38):
You know, it's a terrible thing
because it creates a market
for that product to be sold.
When Bitcoin, the only $2 value for Bitcoin is holding it
and exchanging it, but there is nothing else.
Anyways, we're all going to be fine.

(54:59):
I always appreciate having a conversation with you, NBK,
is like going outside and touching grass a little bit.
It's always very calming.
I do want to talk about stuff that you guys are building right now
because I know you have your hands in a lot of different pots.
You want to talk a little bit maybe on the hardware side first,
just kind of what you guys have released recently,
what you're cooking up for the future?

(55:22):
So, like, for people that don't know, we make the cold card, right?
Like the mimetic quintessential Bitcoin hardware wallet
that everybody uses.
I think the main thing that, like, I've noticed
in this last sort of, like, few years
is that it's very clear to me that there is interesting competition out there,

(55:47):
but it's very clear that people don't use Bitcoin.
The majority of the products out there,
it's just from people that don't use Bitcoin.
So I don't see things coming out.
And we just keep on iterating.
I was like, how can we make Bitcoin more usable,
operationally speaking to Bitcoiners

(56:10):
trying to send Bay's layer money safely, securely
and pass on to their children, right?
And I think that's really where
like this last feature was born from.
So like, so, you know, you have your harder wallet.
Everybody has one, right?
And, you know, including your cold card,
you go and, you know, you can send your whole amount out, right?

(56:34):
And that's not a good thing, right?
Because, you know, even though you give it trick pins to break it, to work it out, and, you know, you can delay login and whatever.
At the end of the day, that device is allowing you to just send it all.
And that could be to a bad person, right?
Under duress.
So what we did recently was to add spending conditions to an extra key for multisig.

(57:02):
But we saw the demand, we saw sort of like the light there
where what people really want is the hardware wallet to say,
no, you can't spend more than this.
Or you can't send to an address that is not on this list.
Right?
And so what we did is we created a system for spending policies
inside the hardware wallet itself.

(57:24):
So the hardware wallet can prevent you from doing things
that you don't want yourself to do in certain situations, right?
So you can set up your code card to not let you spend more than one Bitcoin
per transaction.
You can make the code card not let you spend

(57:45):
without a two-factor authentication from a different device.
You know, not let you...
So there's velocity, magnitude, so like not spend more
than a certain amount, period.
and also whitelists.
Whitelists are very important
because you can have a operational code card

(58:05):
that's maybe like your warmer device
that sits on your desk
for you to operate your business
or if you're a trader
and then you can have only the whitelists
that go to maybe your other code card
that's deep under a mountain
or go to your exchange account,
you know, things like that.
So you can have a list of whitelisted addresses
and, you know, like this helps people travel

(58:29):
as well, so you can have a traveling cold
card now. It has spending
limits, so
you can't be forced to
do something you don't want to do.
And it's more like
it really is within those, and can we do
this without an app?
So that we don't have to depend on
Apple, we don't have to depend on more software stacks.

(58:49):
Can we do this without a server?
So that you don't have to talk to anyone or anything.
You don't have to talk to CoinKate.
And
so we spent a lot of time making that
work with just a device.
There's no
counterparties on that spending
policy.
I think that's pretty incredible.

(59:09):
I mean, so I'd also like
to know just your opinion, I mean, on
multi-sig kind of broadly, because obviously
you guys do not, still to this
day, do not have any sort of,
you don't do any sort of software, like you don't provide
the client
to use as the software interface.
That's deliberate.
big things. Yeah. Yeah. It's been like very purposeful on your side. Cold card is obviously

(59:31):
used by a ton of people. It's used in a lot of multi-sig setups as well, especially for people
that want some sort of a vendor diversity in terms of, you know, they maybe they want a couple other
brands and they want a cold card in there as well. What are your thoughts? Cause obviously
some of these things that you're talking about in terms of these features that you've enabled
could, they're almost their own form of multi-sig, but already just built in to the,

(59:53):
to the actual device itself do you think that like what what do you think is the appropriate
setup for most people i'm not asking you to like say this is what everyone should do but like for
most people what do you think is the best way to go about that this is funny so like we actually
have the most comprehensive multi-sig support on the market every possible multi-sig craziness

(01:00:14):
fully supported um which is funny so and we actually have spending policies for multi-sig as
well. So I think the reality is this, like we need optionality, right? Because different people
have different needs and also people have different needs themselves. So like, you know, the same way

(01:00:34):
you have like a spending wallet, you have a travel wallet, you have a checking account, you have a
savings account, you have a trading account, you have, you know, like a gold bar account. Do you
know what i mean it's like when you think about that like you know okay so how can we provide
that functionality to people with through our devices because we have those needs as users like

(01:00:57):
like pretty much like almost all features that cold card have are a need of of our own we're
very selfish with that we make the products for ourselves and then hopefully people get used to
of it as well.
So,
but you are a Bitcoin business,
like you operate Bitcoin businesses,
like you,
you know,
Bitcoin businesses and users need because you operate one and you are the

(01:01:19):
other.
Like that,
you know,
makes sense.
Exactly.
So,
so,
you know,
I think like the great majority of people,
you know,
outside of Twitter,
you know,
outside of the spotlight,
they're more than well served by single SIG,
you know,
playing vanilla single SIG,
Like most people can keep a metal plate secure and secret.

(01:01:45):
Okay.
You know, would you put your whole life savings on it?
Probably not, right?
Like that's where you start sort of doing a little bit of game theory on your own life, right?
Like how much, it's the same as having a gold bar, you know, when you're safe in your house or something, right?
Like how much gold did you have in your house?
Right?
Like you can answer those questions.
Not all of your gold, hopefully.
Exactly, right?

(01:02:06):
So think about single SIG in that sense, right?
Like how much would you have on hand or accessible to you, right?
Same with cash.
How much would you have?
Because cash burns, right?
Like it gets tricky.
So now we can add, say, like a passphrase.
Passphrase with single SIG is like remarkable, right?
Now it's plausibly deniable.

(01:02:28):
It's super simple.
Pretty much every wallet supports it.
you know like if somebody captures their seed plate it's okay it's not in the world because
they don't have the passphrase you know you can put the passphrase in a different location
it's very it's fairly simple for inheritance as well because it's just you know it's just

(01:02:48):
two little secrets for you to sort of pass on you know so like that goes a long way in terms of
like amount of money and people's circumstances, right?
Now, you know, like you live maybe in a more dangerous neighborhood, right?
Like, well, you know, now you have to start thinking a little bit more broadly on this,

(01:03:09):
right?
Like you need to think about like how, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, like a duress
could be a bigger sort of concern for you, right?
So you start thinking about what can you do around that?
Is it some trick pins?
Is it delay pin?
Is it like maybe multi-sig and you can't sign it alone in that place, right?

(01:03:29):
You know, now are you a business?
Well, businesses are different, different needs, right?
Like maybe you need multiple people to sign something.
You know, with the spending policies for multi-sig,
that was for business because, you know,
now you can have like same wallet, okay?
So one business partner can sign up to a certain amount.

(01:03:50):
You know, the other business partner can sign up to a certain amount,
but together they can sign everything.
you know, like how amazing is that, right?
It's like the nuclear codes where you've got to have two guys
each with their key base.
I mean, it's literally that, yeah.
Yes, and it's super useful.
And that's all device-based.
You don't need servers.
You don't need anything.
You don't need to pay a company.
You don't need to pay a subscription, nothing.

(01:04:11):
And you don't have to exist either.
Like it could be completely a non, right?
Because you don't have to, you know,
work with a collaborative multi-sig company,
which is not a bad thing either.
It really depends on what you need, right?
And we're very intense and reflective about these ideas.
How far can we take an embedded device in terms of operational security

(01:04:33):
and being operationally capable without needing a service or an app?
Because service are attack surface and a privacy attack surface
and apps are an attack surface because now you have the same vendor
showing you the address.
so you know and that's sort of like that's that's the space we live in and and and i think we got to

(01:04:56):
a point now where it's you know it's it's hilariously simple to set up a cold card to
transact a cold card you know as much as people love to like you know say things are hard it's
you know things are hard because they're trying to sell you something else you know it's you know
we have plenty of examples of the grandma, right?

(01:05:22):
The Bitcoiners grandma that they taught how to use Bitcoin, right?
Like it's like that ephemeral grandma that, you know, probably doesn't exist.
But still, like there's a lot of those examples of people that managed to get that through.
And I think there is another part that's very important,
is that we don't compromise on the necessity for the person to understand what they're doing.

(01:05:43):
because you should not have Bitcoin
if you're not willing to understand
what you have now.
You should not have gold in your house
if you don't understand what gold is.
It is not safe
and you're going to get scammed.

(01:06:05):
For example, Ledger.
They do a very good job of security.
Some good people there,
very professional people.
They really try to make it very easy.
They have an app wallet that's very easy to use.
But the problem is you abstract so much of what's happening from the user

(01:06:25):
that then the user gets a DM from a scammer saying,
hey, give me your seed.
Okay, here's my seed.
I'm the support people.
Give me your seed and I'll help you, right?
Whenever I hear those stories, I'm like, how?
Why?
No, stop.
This is the majority of the people who lose Bitcoin.
You know, it's because, again, like they're not being forced to understand what they have.

(01:06:49):
Right. And part of our flow, even though it's simple, it requires people to have some agency.
Right. We believe that that's our responsibility.
And, you know, we I really like I really want to bang this point where it's that like if you're not willing to understand Bitcoin, go buy micro strategy.

(01:07:09):
You know, go buy, you know, go buy some ETF, go buy, you know, like shares in a company that has Bitcoin, go do something else.
You know, like Bitcoin is for people, like having UTXOs with a signing device.
Okay, it's for people who want to take responsibility over their money because it's a lot of responsibility.

(01:07:33):
Yeah, if you can't open a PDF, buy the Bitcoin ETF.
That's what I always say, you know.
That's funny.
Yeah, it's not bad.
I think that that's fair.
I think that may sound harsh to some people.
Like, no, come on, Bitcoin should be for everyone.
But I think this, I'm not the first
nor the last to make this distinction,

(01:07:54):
but Bitcoin's not for everyone.
It's for anyone who is willing to learn and do the work.
Because it is scary.
It is scary to have self-custody of your wealth.
We're not used to that.
Again, this is not a thing in the fiat system you can do.
you can't self custody digital dollars that you can't,
it's impossible.
You can self custody physical dollars and that has its own set of risks,

(01:08:18):
right?
You can self custody gold,
but most people don't.
And most people don't self custody their,
their digital dollars.
Most people have a custodian for any meaningful amount of wealth.
It's a weird thing.
It's a weird thing that we're doing in this Bitcoin space where you are the
one,
the buck stops with you.
And if you screw up,
there's no customer service to call. There's no, there's no, you know, oh, let me just reverse that

(01:08:41):
transaction for you. No, no, no. It's not how it works. Like you're done. And I think that for most
people that is scary, which is why to earlier point about, you know, hey, there's not going to
be enough UTXOs for everyone. Right. It's like, I don't know if there needs to be enough UTXOs for
everyone. Like it's because everyone doesn't want that responsibility to be honest with you. I don't

(01:09:03):
know if that sounds too harsh too, but I just, I don't think everyone wants that. I think most
people want to be able to call a custodian when something goes wrong. I think that that's because
that's what they've been trained to do. It's scary to take self custody. It requires taking
true ownership. Like you said earlier, Bitcoin is the only thing that you can own and you really own

(01:09:26):
it. If you like you, you have the keys, you have the coins. And if you screw that up, those coins
are gone and that's a understandably scary thing for i think probably the vast majority of the
population yeah it's um you know again it's it's uh you can't like it's like driving right you know

(01:09:48):
bitcoin bitcoin self-custody is literally like driving okay nobody learns in the highway
right people go in a parking lot
where the stakes are low
they learn how to drive
there's a lot of people who shouldn't be driving
you know
if you're driving your family
now you have your whole family in your car

(01:10:09):
their lives are at risk
your responsibility
right if you're driving a bus
it's a lot of responsibility
you're holding a lot of people's lives
right you know if you don't want to drive
you take the bus
you know
It's like, you know, if you don't want to have Bitcoin self-custody,
but take the bus, you know, go with somebody else.

(01:10:30):
Have a custodian holder for you, you know.
But I think it's important to also have honesty around the trade-offs, right?
There is a lot of solutions out there.
There's a very dishonest sort of way.
It's like, you know, you're safer here, you do this or whatever.
It's just no, like there is no honesty in the marketing
about what they're doing, right?

(01:10:51):
But, you know, we can't change that.
I mean, that's just the reality of the market, right?
And people need to get burned to understand sometimes
or people need to get sued or whatever, right?
So yeah, so we continue trying to educate people,
build the right tools.
I think we're fortunate that we are in a market
that there is a lot of people.

(01:11:13):
I mean, like, you know, the amount of devices to sell
is pretty insane, you know, and we can remain
sort of like a company with a fairly sort of
opinionated view of how self-custody should be done and still sell devices like that to me gives
me hope about bitcoin right like in terms of self-custody in that sense that like you know
if we can exist there is enough people yeah no that's it's fair i'm curious too will uh i think

(01:11:40):
a lot of people probably have even if they uh i mean i've probably heard about coin kite and cold
card but they've probably seen a block clock i've got to say that was that's such a i mean i've got
a couple of them a couple of the minis and then the micro minis or whatever the extra small ones because they just awesome Are you guys ever going to put out like another one

(01:12:03):
Is there any way to top that?
Because it's a beautiful piece of Bitcoin design at play there, right?
It's just, I don't know, it's satisfying.
It's nice to have.
Yeah, you know, again, there was a born about,
you know, because we wanted to see the block height.
we wanted to see
seeing the block height around the house

(01:12:23):
is very
peaceful
it's a very satisfying thing
you know
people can be crying out there
the world can be this, life can be that
but it's like TikTok next block
there is another block
there's always another block
and I find that super soothing
and

(01:12:44):
so that's really one of the main reasons
why I made the device
and there was the old one.
I don't know if you've ever seen that one.
It has the digits that flip.
That was a long time ago.
You know, we'll probably,
like when we come up with the next idea
that it's not just a screen showing something,

(01:13:06):
you know, we'll probably make something.
I think the biggest barrier is just the idea
for the next one that is like an interesting technology
because it needs to have a soul, right?
It needs a little artistic flair.
The device was the current one, the Block Clock Mini,
the one that has the seven digits.
I mean, it's very artistic in the sense that

(01:13:29):
from the hardware perspective, people don't do that.
You don't put seven displays on something.
You put one display.
So we were silly putting seven displays onto something.
uh so we need we need the next idea of like the right technology for it eight displays 90 there
you go there you go i've got one block clock that i i had unplugged during a move a couple years ago

(01:13:54):
it was it's so it's just it's still at bitcoin at 28 000 and i'm just leaving that one i'm just
leaving that one as a reminder of of where we came from and that i should have bought more sats when
bitcoin was was down there it's a it's like it's a nice reminder but it's a little bit painful but
it's also like wow this can change fast in bitcoin you know yeah it's it's fun e-inks are

(01:14:14):
fun that way they don't that the image doesn't change once he powers off right so it remains
it's nice i want to ask you too about just okay not everybody can have utxos there i i do think
at a certain point everybody will use bitcoin in some way right but you know maybe without knowing
they're using Bitcoin. What are your thoughts? You mentioned Lightning earlier that you think

(01:14:39):
that really it's not necessarily feasible except for in the kind of larger hub and spoke custodial
model. I'm putting hub and spoke in your mouth there. You didn't actually say those words,
but I'm curious of just your larger thoughts on Lightning. Also on eCash and where you think
there's been obviously a lot of development happening there with what Cali is doing with
Cashew. Where are you at with that? Do you think that's something that becomes, I mean,

(01:15:03):
obviously there are trade-offs and everyone,
the developers themselves obviously acknowledge these.
Cal,
I'll be the first to tell you like,
look,
you can get rugged.
But do you think that those are tools that at least get people in the right
direction towards having something that does have much better privacy and a
very nice user experience compared to a lot of Fiat tools?

(01:15:23):
Yes,
there are trade-offs,
but it's still again,
better than kind of the Fiat shit show that we have today.
I'd love to get your thoughts on those,
those layers.
Yeah,
absolutely.
I mean,
like,
You know, like, again, Custodial Lightning works great.
It really does, you know, because it sort of, it makes up for the trade-offs in terms of practical usability, right?

(01:15:46):
And, you know, there is a lot of improvements on Custodial Lightning.
so it's less, it's more private and less in need of KYC.
So for example, LightSpark, is it LightSpark?

(01:16:07):
I think it's LightSpark.
You know, they do some state chain stuff, right?
So like they can get away with some things
and they make different trade-offs.
So, you know, they can offer that solution
so that clients that use LightSpark as the backend
for their Lightning don't, for example, put into KYC users.
Right?

(01:16:27):
So you get a better privacy set there.
Right?
Like we need instant payments, right,
that are sort of Bitcoin backed.
Right?
I think it's unfortunate that it took so long
for Lightning alternatives to start coming up.
Right?
Because we need competition on the market.

(01:16:47):
Right?
So now we have ARK.
ARK makes different trade-offs.
I want to see how it plays out
but I'm very bullish on it
like I am bullish on Lightning
Custodio
you know there is
cashew is amazing
but cashew requires
Lightning for the settlement of the
mints
so I hope that

(01:17:11):
they turn on
like Bay's layer
cashew funding at some point
I know they don't because
a person could just unilaterally deposit
how much money they want on a mint
and then it could become a problem.
But, you know, there's nothing technically
preventing people from having

(01:17:33):
cashew bean base layer funded.
You know, and cashew in a way
kind of starts to behave almost like hub and spoke, right?
Because they have one fat channel,
you know, a few fat channels between mints
and other Lightning big players.
And then they have the spoke really is the cashew, right?
Which is like a Bitcoin unit of account,

(01:17:57):
Bitcoin denominated unit.
Cashew itself is not Bitcoin, right?
Like it's just a token.
It's an e-cash token.
Exactly.
But Kali's brilliancy there was to make it
so that his implementation is integral
to being Bitcoin backed, right?

(01:18:21):
Like you can't use,
like Cashoo doesn't exist with shitcoins.
Like Cashoo exists
because it's fully integrated
with the Bitcoin stack, right?
And it works great, you know,
but again, different trade-offs
and, you know, you could say
Cashoo is custodial, right?
Because of the mint.
But, you know,
but then you can have a million mints.

(01:18:41):
So even if 1,000 mints rug you,
you know, the other, you know,
999,000
mints didn't.
So you're still fine, right?
So yeah, I mean,
there's a lot of stuff happening.
But the reality
is, like, people

(01:19:02):
outside of North America
are poor.
They can't, like, they don't, even in North America,
actually, like, people just don't have money,
right? And Bitcoin is terrible money
for people that don't have money.
That's going to ruffle some feathers
right there. And that's why credit cards are a very big market is because credit cards give people
30 days or a lot more with interest, right? But you have 30 days without interest, right? Like

(01:19:30):
it's very similar to payday loans, right? Like it gives people like that minimum operating period
before they get their next paycheck, right? And that's what people need. They don't use credit
cards just because it's easy to pay. It is now.
It didn't used to be this easy to pay
with credit cards, right?

(01:19:50):
It's very easy now because it became
the currency because nobody has money, so the two things
just merged, right? But
reality is that people need credit.
You know, you look at like all the checkouts
now have like, you know, a firm
or whatever, like pay with 12 days.
Yeah, but you know...
For your groceries.
But you know, this is new to Americans, but the rest of the world
functions like this. In Brazil, you have

(01:20:11):
24 months without
interest on most things really yes they figure out the economics to make it happen it's not even
baked in it's not like there's a different price no no they just figure out because there is no
business if you don't offer terms it's interesting because like on the other side of the world like

(01:20:33):
east a lot of places in eastern europe like it is predominantly done on a you know a cash basis or
like debit, you know, debit card basis. Like there's obviously it's not solely the case,
but even just like the way that most people will buy, buy houses up until more recently
was more focusing on cash based. Like, but that's, there's different traumas,

(01:20:55):
like generational traumas there, right. That have caused them to want to do that and to have
less trust of centralized credit. So like, it's interesting. It's, but yeah, I think it is crazy
to me. Like the first time I walked into a store and saw that it was like, oh, you know, pay over
four months with whatever, a firm or one of these other, one of these other companies, I was like,
oh my God, like this is, we're financing a sandwich here. This is insane.

(01:21:17):
It is, it is nuts, but you know, that's the reality that people have, right? I mean,
you know, when we fix the money and we fix the world, you know, like when we get to the other
side of this, then maybe, you know, people will have like better money and they won't need credit
and they're going to do better. Right. But, but realistically speaking, like you can't have a
modern consumerist society without credit.

(01:21:40):
Bitcoin does not solve that problem.
Not right now.
It solves on the other side of it.
But it's going to take a very long time.
And I think Bitcoiners can't wrap their head around it
because a lot of them are savers, just naturally savers,
people who have different values set
that often makes them have more money in the bank account.

(01:22:01):
So when they want to buy something, they have the cash.
right and that's not the reality of you know the great majority of the world's population
including of their own countries right like it's just you know you're gonna have to accept
ideally visa would be you know our amix would be running on a bitcoin standard and there will be
better companies and you know like you know they'll be able to lower the interest rates you know

(01:22:24):
there's like a whole other universe to look this from right um but you know it is it is what it is
I do like seeing the Bitcoin rewards credit cards out there because that's at least something where it's like, oh, sweet.
Because airline miles are literally just like the biggest scam ever in terms of like – it's like fiat to the extreme on top of base layer fiat.

(01:22:45):
It's just like such a scam.
And so at least spending credit and getting some sats on the side is nice.
I think we'll see a lot more of that happening.
And I think there's also – to your point, like people want credit.
People need loans.
you've seen a lot of companies now start offering these, you know,
offering Bitcoin loans. Like that's, that's great. You know,
strike has made a big deal about this. They're obviously not the only ones.

(01:23:08):
There's a lot of them out there. Ledin,
Debify like a bunch of these other ones that offer, offer Bitcoin loans.
And I think that that's like, that's a, that's a good thing.
People obviously want it. There's obviously a market demand for it.
Otherwise the products would not exist and people wouldn't use them.
And so it's like, you know,
like us being on a Bitcoin standard doesn't mean that that credit,
is just non-existent.

(01:23:29):
I mean, like, you know, like,
we live, we exist in a world
where we're competing with cheap money, right?
So, you know, Bitcoin hurdle rate is amazing,
you know, like, we are, you know,
but we're not, like, doing a million X a year, right?
So we have to, you know, as a Gen Xer

(01:23:51):
or as a Gen Zer or whatever is now,
Like, you know, you're competing for that house, right, on a market that has, you know, monetized real estate.
Right. So like, and you have to have a house to live in.
Right. So like, depending on where you live, like renting may not be optional.

(01:24:15):
Right. So you have to either move or buy a house.
Right. And to buy the house, you don't want to sell the BTC.
and maybe you don't have access to bank credit.
So the next best thing out of that very long list
of the things you've tried, can't move,

(01:24:36):
don't want to sell the BTC, don't have bank credit.
Well, I'm going to take a loan against the BTC.
Does that incur risk? Absolutely.
But is that risk maybe better than not having the BTC?
Yeah.
And if you do that very conservatively,
like you should be able to to be fine right especially the capital gains treatment like
if you need to sell bitcoin to buy something and you've got to pay the capital gains on top it's

(01:25:01):
like god you just literally just getting kicked in the balls by the government just repeatedly
well that's another reason why people buy bitcoin strategy stocks is because stocks are very
compatible with the fiat system you can walk into your bank and say loan me x amount of money versus
my trading book.
You know, like your literal corner bank can do it, right?

(01:25:24):
You know, and they're going to offer you better interest rates than any Bitcoin collateral
company would, right?
It's just because you're part of the system, right?
Bitcoin is not compatible with the system yet, but you will be, you know, once, you
know, your fucking Mary Lynch offers you Bitcoin backed loans.
I'm not saying you should put your Bitcoin there.

(01:25:46):
You definitely shouldn't because those assholes are going to take it somehow.
But they're going to create an environment where, you know,
Landon or Strike are going to have even better interest rates to give to you
because Merrill Lynch is their new competition now.
And we're seeing Bitcoin insurance now too,
which is, I think, pretty cool to see.

(01:26:06):
Like, it's fantastic.
Like, people, these are, again, products that the market wants.
And there are now Bitcoin companies.
And that's the nice thing too, is like these companies that are existing right now,
either providing these loans, providing insurance, whatever they are,
they're not trad fi companies that are then pivoting to this.
They're the,
they're Bitcoin companies that are the first movers in this space and are

(01:26:28):
there before the,
the JP Morgan's and the city banks and the Merrill Lynch's and everything
else.
And ultimately I think that that's a great thing.
Like that's,
you know,
that ultimately means that it's those companies are necessarily going to be
more mission aligned with the average Bitcoiner than Jamie diamonds,
you know,
JP Morgan.
Like that's exactly,
that's a no brainer.
Yeah.
I mean,
it really is.
That's him.
And we also can cross borders now, right?

(01:26:50):
Like you can go hodohodoh and make a private loan contract
with some other crazy Bitcoin or in another part of the universe, right?
And like, you know, your chances of capture, privacy issues or whatever,
like greatly de-risked, right?
There is a lot of paths.
And the more we become compatible,

(01:27:13):
compatible is the wrong way, the wrong analogy.
The more we become interfaceable with the fiat system, the better it is for Bitcoin.
Like, you know, a politician can no longer wake up in the morning and go,
Bitcoin should be illegal in America.
They'll tank the market.

(01:27:34):
Right?
Like, why?
Like, if it was just a bunch of crazy Bitcoiners, like, they could totally do it.
And they'll get away with it.
Right?
They can't do that when, like, you know, teachers' pensions depend on it.
like that's moat for us like you should be celebrating that you know it's just be celebrating
anybody like you may not like the person buying bitcoin but it's demand and demand makes your

(01:27:54):
bags more defended right um you know it's it's uh it's a hard pill to swallow to some people
it's but it's also this it's a symptom of success right it's a symptom of bitcoin
winning like this is what winning looks like this is what winning feels like it means your
your, you know, dire, your enemies stacking sats as well.

(01:28:18):
And it means the suits coming in and it means governments wanting to stack
this.
And it means more acceptance by the traditional finance system.
Like Bitcoin was losing.
If Bitcoin sucked, no one would care, but it doesn't suck.
It's amazing.
Everybody wants it.
And that's why they do care.
It's like, that's a, it's, it's a symptom of that winning.
I do want to be conscious of your time.
And VK, I, if you've got time for one more,

(01:28:38):
I just kind of wanted to ask your thoughts broadly on like the,
the state of Noster right now and where you're at with it.
What's your vibe on it?
You've obviously been active on Noster for quite some time,
actively built some products around there as well.
But yeah, I don't know.
What's your vibe on it?
It's just like Bitcoin, right?
It's the adoption cycle is not linear.

(01:29:02):
So you have spikes.
There's a lot being built.
Primo is remarkable.
Like, I mean, like, you know, you look at something like that because you need an example, right?
And like, that's a great one.
It's like, look, it's like practically like Twitter.
Like, I mean, you can't tell the difference.
Half the times I can't tell the difference which app I'm in, right?

(01:29:24):
It's just that one app I can send sacks, the other one I can't.
You know, we're streaming right now on Noster, right?
I think it's a very necessary protocol.
We need a communication protocol that doesn't require permission,
a permanent identity system that doesn't require permission.

(01:29:47):
And, you know, people are building.
There's a lot coming.
There's white noise coming.
It's great.
It's a signal replacement that needs to exist.
There is, I think, Universe is another app,
kind of like Discord thing where it's like, you know,
people have communities.
There's a lot being built.
It takes time.
You know, it's the adoption and the interest

(01:30:11):
and the volume of users using it,
the DAO is going to differ and it's going to come and go.
But, you know, right now,
Elon is a nice benevolent dictator with Twitter, right?
Like, we don't know what it's going to be like in a few years, right?
Like, and you can't depend on that.
So I always say to people, like, at a bare minimum,
just have a backup, you know, build an account

(01:30:35):
where you have some interactions,
you have a following, you have followers,
you have a place to go to in case you get canceled
because it could happen.
And then there's all the other stuff
that it's just not possible to do,
like zapping people on Twitter or whatever.
There's a lot that's going to start to get built and come out

(01:30:57):
that is just things that were not possible.
It's not just like we're just trying to run away from those places.
we're going to now build things that are like just not possible to build on those places right it's
just possible on nostre um i'm very bullish on it it's just you know it's going to take a long time
is there a particular uh whether it be some sort of new uh social engagement layer

(01:31:23):
a social networking layer or something else a particular advancement or product service
app whatever on nostre that you are most looking forward to personally i think white noise is uh
It's a big one.
Signal makes a lot of decisions that I can't, for the life of me, understand.
It took them years to not dock their phone number to people, for example.

(01:31:49):
They refuse to accept Bitcoin.
They want their shit going there.
They don't allow you to have more than one device, more than a phone.
Why is this related to my phone number?
I don't want a phone number.
Or, you know, if you want to de-spam,
because phone numbers help with de-spamming,
and I'm like, sure, check once,
but like, let me move on from phone numbers, right?

(01:32:11):
You know, there is a bunch of reasons
that like it must be replaced.
You can't have like, you know,
like chats are a great way of dealing with servers,
like as a server interface.
So like a chatbot kind of thing.
And, you know, you can't have a client
for the server on Signal.
It's like fully closed.

(01:32:31):
You know, it's, anyways, there's a lot of, they do a lot of things right.
A lot of things right.
So much so that I use it personally a lot.
But like I'm looking forward to the next iteration of like maybe some fresh ideas and a little bit more freedom.
Right.
And I think White Noise does that.
White Noise uses MLS, which is like the evolution of the signal protocol for privacy and secret messaging.

(01:32:58):
but it integrates with Noster
so you don't need servers.
How amazing is that?
I'm looking forward to that.
Jeff G is working on that.
It's my next super needed app.

(01:33:18):
Yeah, I mean, it's also one of those things
where being able to open source it
and make it available for folks
because like Signal, there's a pretty good chance
with some of the upcoming laws uh you know in europe i forget when when are they voting on that
uh that that new like backdoor encryption law they're voting on it i think on like the 12th

(01:33:38):
or 13th of october where in the eu they may force uh messaging providers to give them a backdoor
even to encrypted messaging which is like okay and signal basically said they've got to they're
gonna get out of there um but yeah uh i know you got to jump so let's let's close this out
where do you want to send folks?

(01:33:59):
Just
I want to send them
out of Twitter.
I want to send them to the park
near their houses, you know,
like stock the sets, go walk
on grass, fuck all this
noise, go enjoy your life,
go build things, go be productive,
you know, and
you know, get yourself

(01:34:20):
a cold card, stick the money
in it and move on. Like
it really is that simple like it's just so simple it's so simple that people cannot believe how
simple it is right so they have to complicate it just just you know stack the stats you know and
go live your life that is fantastic advice and vk thanks for coming on here i'm gonna cut this

(01:34:44):
now thanks to everyone who joined in the live stream as well appreciate you guys peace thanks
for having me
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening

(01:35:06):
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America.
and find this podcast on X and Instagram at titcoinpodcast.
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links,

(01:35:28):
head to substack.com slash atwalkeramerica to get episodes emailed to you
and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast.
Until next time, stay free.

(01:35:51):
.

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