CENSOR THIS PODCAST: NOSTR & BITCOIN VS TOTALITARIANISM | Will Casarin (jb55) - THE Bitcoin Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Just imagine if you were the first person to discover the properties of gold and like, and no one else could like, like, well, it's just like this malleable metal.

(00:06):
That's like, why would you want to use that?
It's kind of like useless.
It's a very fortunate time.
Everyone who is like not partaking or at least like looking into it or at least learning about it, you're doing yourself a huge disservice because it's like the best.
This is the most unique time.
Think of like at cosmological scales, like what's the earth, like 4.7 billion years or something.
And like we're at this one moment in time where we create this technology that is perfect scarcity, mathematical scarcity based off the laws of physics.

(00:31):
And you're here at this point in time.
It's like and you think it's a scam.
Can you talk about the biggest fumble of your like entire existence?
I can't think of anything more important to be doing other than building on Bitcoin.
Nothing else seems as important.
I have like this like really anti like authoritarian thing.
I think it was driven by that like trauma experience as a kid, just like always being told it off my computer when I was like, that's all I want to do.

(00:52):
So when Apple's telling me that I can't do something, I'm like, I want to burn you to the ground now.
My number one focus is to build around you.
I always say a conversation at a bar is the most decentralized thing you can do.
It's completely peer-to-peer.
It doesn't require any centralized architecture.
Infrastructure, no cloud involved.
You're just having a beer with someone.
So I think what peer-to-peer technology is simply restoring that human thing we've been doing for hundreds of thousands of years.

(01:19):
So I think it's worthwhile.
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.
My name is Walker, and this is The Bitcoin Podcast.
Bitcoin continues to create new blocks every 10 minutes.
The value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

(01:39):
And if you're listening to this right now, remember, you are still early.
If you're not already, go ahead and subscribe to this show wherever you're watching or listening,
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If you want to follow me in the show on Noster and X, just head to the show notes to grab the links.
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(02:02):
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(02:25):
bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else. Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.
Uncle Jim 21 on Noster, he built a tool called Pull That Up Jamie.

(02:46):
Oh, really?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty sweet.
um is so like he walked me through it and i met him in dc we just got to chat and it was like one
of those things where you know you're chatting with someone's like oh you know like what do you
you know do around the old bitcoin space and he's like oh you know like or this and that and like i
built this like thing called pull up jamie i'm like no way like i kept seeing marty bent using

(03:06):
this all the time but it's basically like a uh a place for you to it'll automatically archive your
podcast episodes and then allow you like it'll automatically like creates like lo-fi clips for
you um it does all the stuff that i can publish to to noster uh straight from it um you know does
other like summaries and stuff so it's like it's it's pretty sweet uh but the the name like it's

(03:28):
pull that up jamie.ai and it's like that's that's just that that's a great that's a great site name
when i hear that i just assume it's like an ai agent that's like replicates jamie like during
the podcast and you can just ask it to like pull stuff up i think that'd be cooler honestly jim if
you're listening to this uh that would be pretty sweet like that that's honestly like yeah i need

(03:49):
to be able to basically like have a an assistant that's listening that i can just kind of vibe
chat with to be like like pull that up jamie and they could pull that up during it can just do like
web searches like instantly it'd probably be way faster than jamie so honestly like i could probably
do that like with with chat gpt or like with grok at this point but the problem is that like i feel

(04:09):
like a lot of those times those conversations will time out um it would also just keep like
trying to talk to you like if you know you need to like have it like set up so it had that trigger
word of like pull that up jamie yeah and then you then you'd probably be good to go but but yeah
um i'm also i want to give it another shout out i'm gonna give a shout out to ben justman because
he sent me uh we're we're doing a uh i'd call it a value for vino collaboration where basically it's

(04:32):
like the coolest thing ever like i'm just gonna drink his wine on this show peony lane wine which
is delightful and he's gonna send me wine to drink and so like that's like honestly like
kind of awesome and like i think we need more of that one of my favorite one of my favorite things
is like having a like wine subscription every month so if i could just like pay in sats to get

(04:54):
wine delivered to my door every month that'd be dude that'd be ideal i'm pretty sure ben has
they don't they don't ship to they don't ship to canada i asked him before that's your that's
your first problem we do have cravado i think i think they're on nostor as well if that's how you
say their name so um i should ask him actually dude i i love uh i love that the kind of small

(05:18):
business marketplace aspect of nostor has it feels like it's been like kind of taking off i mean like
it's still at a small scale but like there's there's a lot of folks now that are using nostor
as the way that they are like marketing their small business or even like taking orders and i
think that's a super like super great use case for this especially if you can like literally take

(05:39):
orders through a zap like that's that's pretty sweet it's probably one of the most important
things for the long-term success of like the zap economy i've always called it and like zap
commerce because if you don't have people like actually using it for stuff day to day
then it's then it's still just like a toy and it's and it's fine as a toy it's like oh you know
you know you get drunk and you start tipping people on nostril like i do occasionally um but

(06:03):
It's not like that's not going to make like Zaps and Noster succeed in the long run.
So, yeah, we definitely need those marketplaces to get going.
And I was just talking to, I think it was like Talvadev, his name is, in Portland.
And he's working on a lot of the Shopster stuff, I think.
A lot of the marketplace stuff.
And, yeah, he really like, I'm like, I didn't realize there's so much stuff going on.

(06:25):
So I'm really excited for that.
They were doing like milk distribution of some kind.
Because like sometimes it's hard to get like raw milk or it's like legal.
ones you're part of the world like in canada it's like illegal like in canada we don't we're not
even allowed to have like medium rare burgers at restaurants like you can't tell i don't know if
that's a joke or if it's not a joke i'm not even joking seriously yeah if you if you google you'll

(06:46):
see canada you can't ask for a medium rare burger in a restaurant canada but you can get like
friggin fentanyl off the street it's just most ridiculous you can't get raw milk either it's
illegal okay that that like is there like a secret code word you can use if like you want a medium
rare burgers that you tell them like you know it's just not in the culture so like if people
if you were to ask that order at a restaurant they'd be like what do you mean like it's just

(07:09):
not like something that you do it's just you just go get a burger and it's just like well done or
something it's just like a piece of leather leather yeah you know i will say like you know i
who doesn't like to make fun of canada but i've made a lot of incredibly based uh bitcoin and
no stir friends that are canadians such as yourself like but like the countless numbers

(07:29):
like i feel so privileged because i never knew that many canadians like i could probably count
the canadians i knew on like both hands growing up and then it's like now like i have a ton of
canadian friends and they're all super based obviously there's a selection bias there because
they're bitcoin and noster people but like i think there's a lot of hope for canada still
you know yeah i mean i think we had a lot of the or i don't know it just seems to be like a lot of

(07:51):
like bitcoiner engineers are here um we i think we had the first bitcoin atm in vancouver like in
the world you know obviously we have like um nvk's company we have you know a lot of a lot of people
like coin cards here in um in vancouver so yeah i don't know there's a lot of cool canadians and uh
yeah we're actually having a yeah yeah we're actually having a conference tomorrow at the

(08:11):
convention center in vancouver tomorrow oh maybe yeah tomorrow or saturday so that's gonna be fun
it's like one of the first like ones in vancouver which can be exciting oh that's sweet i like i've
only been to canada a couple of times i've enjoyed it each time uh very much but then like i you know
it's like i'm just getting like a little a little taste of it i'm not seeing all the insanity that

(08:33):
happens you know behind the scenes like oh it's like so nice to visit then like i come back and
i read some ridiculous news story or i find out that you can't have a gosh darn medium rare burger
and it's like what the hell is this what's this place coming to yeah freedom is just like much
more suppressed here and it's kind of just been normalized we don't really think about it like we
don't have guns we don't have like the freedoms that you guys have and but people just like go on

(08:55):
with their lives oh yeah it's like you need uh you need to basically like get a yearly documentation
like recheck you have to like read redo the test like every year or something it's like very annoying
to have a gun yeah that's like i mean in in illinois we have to uh like i'm originally from
wisconsin and there i mean you know like it's it's easier than in illinois to get a gun but it's

(09:17):
like people uh people who don't own guns in america like to actually you can just like walk
into a store and you walk out with a gun it's like no no in most places this is not the case you
you walk into a store and you uh have a federal background check run on you and you probably can't
leave with the gun like that same day um but like in uh in illinois you have to have a foid card

(09:37):
firearm owner identification card and that like expires after a certain point like and it takes
a while to get because it's the government so like they just take a long time to issue anything
You got to, of course, pay for it.
And it's, it's, I remember I was going to, I was going to buy a gun in Wisconsin once
and I wanted to get just like a, another handgun.
And I, I like had a great handgun picked out.

(09:59):
I had exactly what I wanted.
And then I go to the, you know, the cashier and I'm like, okay, you know, here's my ID.
You know, yeah.
Oh, Illinois.
Let you know, do you have your foot card?
Yep.
Okay.
Here it is.
And this is the gun I want right here.
And the guy's like, oh no, I can't sell you.
I can't sell you a handgun because you're an Illinois resident.
i'm like oh but like but you can sell like what do you mean i can buy a handgun in illinois
like but like he's like no i i can't sell you a handgun in wisconsin like what what can i buy he's

(10:23):
like well you can buy any long gun i'm like so i can buy this semi-automatic 12-gauge shotgun
this semi-automatic 12-gauge maxis shotgun which is what i ended up buying um he's like yeah that's
fine but it's like so i like it just these laws are so stupid because it's like okay i can't buy
a small pistol but i can literally buy a semi-automatic 12-gauge shotgun which will

(10:45):
leave multiple giant holes in you like that but it's like okay good great job government you you
did it you know you kept you kept us safe by making the law-abiding people making their lives
absolutely hell because it's not like criminals have any problems getting illegal guns you know
it's just i digress but it's just that kind of stupidity just is so infuriating to me i think

(11:05):
the future is going to be like especially for us canadians is like once 3d printing gets just so
good and you can just like press a button and have a weapon and like don't have to tell anyone
about it then it's like i don't know i just i just kind of see that happening especially if
governments keep on you know getting going down this like crazy path that they're going especially
with all the uk madness and um i don't know it's a scary place out there so especially with like

(11:28):
you know bitcoiners who like are have been in bitcoin since like 2010 and you know you've been
like holding you know massing bitcoin and like preparing for the future and people i don't know
I'm at this point now where it's like, I used to be like a huge prophet prophetizer of Bitcoin.
I used to like go tell everyone about it.
Now it's kind of like, maybe I should shut up and just like cute myself.
And because you see all those like kidnappings and stuff happening.

(11:50):
And I don't know.
So many in France.
So many kidnappings in France, weirdly.
Like that seems to be the new place.
Like if you want to, if you want to, if you want to kidnap somebody and take their cryptocurrency.
I would just target people who like in places where there's no like weapons are outlawed.
It's like you have less chance of getting shot.
yeah it's like you you if you want to do that to somebody in america like you like it's a you're

(12:13):
rolling the dice that person has a guy like yeah like i you know it has like more than one gun like
there are you coming to my house you're going to be met with a lot and they're like they're like
finally someone came into my house this is gonna be waiting for this i have literally been preparing
for this like you have no idea what you just walked into um and now you know i get to well
yeah it doesn't go well um don't want to get banned from youtube for saying uh saying stuff

(12:38):
about violence though so oh shit sorry no i'm just kidding i don't give a shit eventually it's gonna
it's gonna happen um and that's why i'm so glad noster exists because we're live streaming this
on noster to right now 88 people which is nice um so shout out to everybody who is listening to
this live on noster on zap.stream i want to get into a bunch of stuff with you will uh because

(12:58):
like there's a lot of stuff i want to talk about what you're building at uh at damas like what's
what's new over there i want to talk about honestly like maybe this is where we kind of
keep rolling into like what's happening in the uk and how uh sort of the fiat clown world is
doing a very good job of like making the case for why you would want to noster um and like not just

(13:19):
in the uk obviously but they're just one of the most absurd examples right now uh and i mean maybe
we maybe we start with uh start with that i also want to talk about like generally growing
noster um and and what people like at the individual level can do versus like as the
user level versus like what you think at the dev level needs to be done you know like is this a

(13:39):
is this a solution with a technical like or a technical solution or is this something that's
more of just like hey adoption takes time uh but maybe let's let's start okay first of all for
anyone who doesn't know you jb55 will castron you created damas this is your third time on the show
right i think i think so yeah yeah welcome back third time's the charm thank you um stoked to have

(14:00):
you back i've enjoyed every one of our conversations both on on the air here and uh in person uh let
let's just because you brought it up let's talk about the uk a little bit so like
the the what is it's the online safety act is the uh the one and okay maybe we take a step back
all of these like online safety things they all sound really like nice in theory where it's like

(14:25):
well we just want to keep children safe like don't you want to keep children safe like don't like
because if you don't like like who's gonna be like no i want children to be in danger like you know
they they put out these these red herrings these false flag operations that make it sound like well
this is just about you know keeping children safe and yet there are some other unintended
consequences but maybe they're actually totally intended but like how do you look at these these

(14:50):
things as they're as they're playing out like i feel like this is going to keep accelerating
uh in places where people don't push back and clearly in the uk there is not enough like actual
pushback to this like it seems kind of insane that people aren't like i mean they're up in arms but
like not enough to make any difference apparently yeah it's and wasn't it like 80 of people just

(15:11):
like we're like approved of the of the whole thing yeah um so i don't even know how if that's
true or if that's just like propaganda or the one thing i don't understand is why is this all
happening it all tends to happen at the same time i'm like i'm not like a super conspiratorial
person but you know sometimes you just like look at how things have played out especially like
during the pandemic it's almost like they're like testing to see how the population would react to

(15:33):
certain things and then you know and now they're like okay let's just try let's just push again
and see what happens and it's just that's what it feels like to me it feels like they're just
experimenting to see how people react as like a psyop um i don't know maybe it's not as coordinated
as that maybe they're legitimately people are in just in the government and they're like worried
about online safety but i don't know it just it seems weird that it happens all at the same time

(15:55):
and it's always like backed by corporate sponsors and um so obviously you know maybe the thing i
think about is like follow the money like who is profiting from this like you know obviously having
control of a lot of systems like you know give certain people's advantages i don't know i think
i haven't done like the deep analysis of like why it's happening i just i'm just like a passive
observer and i'm like okay that's interesting um and for me i just see it as like a positive thing

(16:19):
for me like in terms of things i'm building because i'm like showcasing this is why i'm
working on this stuff because we have to prepare for a future when this is going to actually going
to happen and it's like i didn't think it'd be happening this quickly um so i thought i would
have a lot more time to like build out and like get everything ready but if they want to fast track
it then fine and then they'll start you know working even harder but it's uh it's kind of crazy

(16:40):
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(17:49):
you it is insane and it's like you know i think uh like even orwell couldn't have conceived of how
dystopian things would get in the uk so quickly like that that's really like the sad thing it's
just like and it's the absurdity of it too right it's just that like none of this stuff
it's like nobody thought through it that much or i guess there's two sides to it either

(18:12):
nobody thought through it that much and genuinely are too stupid to realize all of the downstream
implications of these terrible policies that ultimately restrict individual liberties under
the guise of, you know, protecting children, which, yeah, we all want to keep the kids safe,
right? But like, yeah, there are, there are trade-offs in things. Or like, they literally
know exactly what they're doing. They know that this is a, they're, you know, doing this in a

(18:36):
deceitful way. And they know that it's really just a tool of, you know, totalitarianism to try and
restrict people's freedom of communication, freedom of expression. Like people are, I mean,
like the fact that you can just legitimately get arrested for a social media post in the uk
is just nuts like that just right on it they'll come to your door and like knock on your door and

(18:56):
arrest you and i'm like i've seen videos like that for since like 10 years ago like they've
been doing that for a while it's kind of crazy you can't silently pray within like a certain
distance of uh of an abortion clinic which like and i think they literally i'm forgetting the
woman's name there was like a 70 year old like you know grandma who was literally just arrested for
this and like that's just it doesn't matter how you feel about the issue of abortion like that

(19:21):
that is that you know that does not matter it's not the point here the point is you should be able
to silently pray like where like that's not like you're not hurting anyone that's that's you know
part of like free expression but then it's like the uk just like doesn't really have that like
they they actually they actually don't they don't have uh something that's as you know
uh that's you know like the constitution of the bill of rights it's not that uh to that extent

(19:46):
and like they're they're paying the price for it and i do think the fact that like you're not an
when you're not an armed population the government feels a lot more free to come in and subjugate you
and to do ridiculous things like because there's no like what are you what are you going to do they're
making knives illegal in the uk like there was a whole push to like only sell blunted knives did

(20:07):
you see this it was like it was nuts because like because shockingly people are stabbing each other
with knives because it turns out that even when you don't have guns people still find ways to kill
each other who would have thought but like i don't know it's just like it just i think you're right
it just feels like they push more and more and more like what can we get away with what can we
get away with now but they're really making the case for why you would want a censorship resistant

(20:30):
open protocol for communication so like at least there's that yeah and we have like this like idea
in software i guess not even software it's just like in general like engineering or maybe even
more general it's like murphy's law right if anything if you set up the the structure in ways
that it can fail it will fail just because inherently people who are not that smart get

(20:50):
into these positions because those positions attract people who just like are not there for
like an intellectual reason they're there for like power or money or greed so and those types
of people just don't tend to be like second order effect thinkers like i feel like some of the
smartest people i know when they especially there's a lot of bitcoiners too when i talked a
lot of bitcoiners and you'll be like oh if i make this change to this now to the let's say to the

(21:12):
protocol what are the second order effects that are going to happen if i make this change and like
the reason why it's so interesting i find to talk to bitcoiners because they think like two or four
or five or six ten steps down the road and they like no we can't change the block size because of
xyz and all these implications and but the shit corners they're like they don't they don't think
two orders down the line so they're just like let's just make the blocks bigger and everything

(21:32):
great um so i know i just see it the same way where they're they're it could be like you know
they're doing it for malicious reasons but it's it's probably more likely just they're not thinking
about the second order effects and um so yeah i don't know it's who knows i i think uh have you
ever read the book the psychopath test by john ronson no it's a great book it's a pretty like

(21:55):
short book too if you want it's a enjoyable read i think i read it like a decade ago but it's uh
it's still very relevant basically it's like like one percent of the general population people so
not people in prison like people in prison this percentage is higher but like one percent of the
general population are psychopaths like actual like clinical psychopaths it may be even a little

(22:15):
bit like higher than that so one in a hundred people that you meet are is going to be a psychopath
statistically like incapable of feeling empathy like literally can't can't do it can't put
themselves in your shoes and is just a narcissistic egomaniac who is also going to be really good at
being charismatic and getting, you know, and probably pretty eloquent and good at getting

(22:38):
what they want. And those people tend to gravitate towards positions of power because it's all about
self-aggrandizement, right? And so, I mean, I would, I don't know what the percentage of psychopaths in
politics is like in high offices of politics, but I'm guessing it's higher than 1%. Like,
I feel like it'd be a safe thing to bet that it's higher than gen pop.

(22:58):
And so,
but then it's like,
you're right.
I think a lot of these people are just incredibly incompetent.
So you've got this mix of like actually highly intelligent psychopaths and then
super just mid curve,
smooth brains.
And that's basically like,
and that government you know and they okay Then that not entirely fair And there are some bright spots of people who actually give a shit and are there because you know they want to change things and make them better for the next generation

(23:25):
But those people are in the tiny, tiny minority, sadly.
I'm grateful they exist, but they're outnumbered, you know?
Yeah.
Well, this is why I've always like somehow as Bitcoiners and as like people who are just
like passive people, they're not, they don't crave power.
They just want to like live peacefully.
somehow i mean satoshi this is like satoshi genius he was able to like create the structure

(23:49):
which fights against all of that power against all of that coercion and all of that like
force and they just they did it in the most passive way possible just like writing code
and just like putting it out there and and now like we're winning like it's kind of crazy and
we're not even we don't have to do any violence like can you think of a more poetic and beautiful

(24:10):
um thing to like that's actually unfolding it's just it's amazing like you just have to sit there
and do nothing well like basically incentives drive human action into like proper you know
into like healthy directions it's kind of crazy if you think about it it it really is like it's
it's almost like wow like no way this would work right but then it's like it's working right right

(24:31):
in front of our eyes like bitcoin is winning and that's not to say that they're like we don't need
to remain ever vigilant and build out all of the kind of tangential solutions that are required to
make sure that we can you know progress along that sovereignty spectrum as far as possible
but like at at the at the core level like bitcoin is winning and that's that's an amazing and we did

(24:56):
it without needing to drone strike you know a bunch of brown kids which is just amazing like
it turns like wow what a feature this is crazy no drone strikes required they said it couldn't be
done they said you had to drone strike the brown u.s military is like what what what do you mean
like hold on guys it's completely changing the game this is bullshit this is scary yeah no there's

(25:18):
no way we should just drone strike a few brown kids just uh you know just to be safe just for
good measure on bitcoin's behalf yeah yeah man it's it's nuts i'm curious too like uh how are you
like okay how do you balance as you were building on Noster how do you balance kind of the like you
know like fuck the state freedom tech side of this with with like hey I want to build a nice app with

(25:43):
a with a pleasant user interface that allow that you know is encourages people to come and interact
in a pro-social way or or like are those two actually like two sides of the same coin and like
you know by getting more people on the network you achieve those other more like freedom-minded
goals do you think about that at all yeah i don't think about it enough i think i definitely like

(26:05):
99 think of like ways to fuck the state and to fuck people who are assholes like so that's why
i sometimes i like it's kind of my flaw and like i probably should focus more time on like
um but that's why my team is really good like i have uh you know we've got designer roberto's a
great designer um yeah i got daniel we're helping me with ios we have a whole like note deck team

(26:26):
um we got Vanessa uh Terry like so many people are helping me now and like and they they care
about those things especially Eric Eric is really good he's on the iOS team he basically just makes
it pretty and make it user-friendly so I'm I'm just like I don't know if I didn't have those guys
I feel like I would just uh be building like a lightning node into the into the into the which

(26:47):
I'm doing on note tag which I have a lightning node in there now um but yeah so talk about that
a little bit like give us an update on like where you're at with uh with with note deck what's uh
what's happened recently with damas like what have you guys been focusing on yeah i mean i saw
everyone having too much fun with all the other stuff so i'm like well i want i want to have fun

(27:08):
too um and i because i always i always believe that though i always believe that the other stuff
is what's going to really convince the a large if anything like i don't think we're just going to
convince them on a new social media experience because everyone's already oversaturated with
social media and and everyone's already on twitter and other places so the only thing that we're
actually that's going to work is that we attract like hey you can use all these other software that

(27:28):
all work together and like that's a pretty that would be something you could use outside of just
the social media you can use case um so you know i built domus ios and it was great for like a
twitter-like clone but you know it's not like i'm going to start loading more and more features into
that because it's i'm just trying to keep that simple try to keep easy to use um so just being
able to have a platform where we can build new ideas quickly without being also being uh censored

(27:51):
by the app store censored by apple yeah apple and governments and stuff i needed a new platform to
be able to build my ideas in a in a free way so um yeah so that's what note tech is it's a new
multi multi-platform client i've been working on for like three years now not like full-time three
years but probably more heavily in the past year um and one of the biggest focuses i've been working

(28:12):
on the past four months is getting the Android version working.
So I don't want to spoil it.
And I'm technically under contract, so I can't say when.
But I would say if you want to learn more,
go to Bitcoin Asia at the end of the month.
And you might hear an interesting announcement from me about that.
But other than that, yeah, once we have that launch,

(28:33):
it's going to be amazing.
Then we can launch all of our ideas off that platform.
And it's going to be completely censorship resistant.
I don't have to worry about fucking Apple telling me I can't do shit,
which is like literally as a big corner it's the most infuriating thing i think it might this is
like a childhood trauma thing i think i had when my parents would just always try to tell me to get
off my computer for just spending too much time on your computer and i and i have like this like

(28:54):
really anti like authoritarian thing i think it was driven by that like trauma experience as a kid
just like always being told to get off my computer when i was like that's all i want to do um so yeah
so when apple's telling me did not that i can't do something i'm like i want to burn you to the
ground now like my my number one focus is to like build around you so can you can you give a for
for folks that, and if they want a deeper dive,

(29:14):
like I think we discussed the various things that Apple has done to make your
life a pain in the ass in the past two times you've been on,
but can you give kind of like the,
the brief history of the headaches of dealing with, with Apple's absurdity?
Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's just like,
it's kind of like arguing with your girlfriend and it's like,

(29:35):
you know, it's not a logical argument and it's just like an emotional thing.
And you're like,
you realize you can't make like logical arguments to like,
and this is like what it's like talking to a reviewer at Apple.
It's like,
I'm like,
they're like,
you violated this guideline.
And I'm like,
uh,
no,
I didn't because this guideline says that,
um,
this,
I can't do it if it's being used to buy digital stuff.

(29:56):
I'm like,
well,
as app is not buying digital things,
it's just,
you're,
you're giving someone a tip.
And they're like,
no,
you're still violating.
I'm like,
no,
I'm not.
It's just like,
you can't even argue with them in a reasonable way.
Um,
I don't know.
So that was the first thing.
So they told us they would remove us from the app store.
That was in like a couple of years ago.
And so, yeah, we had to remove the zap button.
We added a backdoor so you could still turn it on because that's how much I hate Apple.

(30:18):
I don't care if they found out I got banned.
I still wanted people to try the zaps.
And then there's a whole, you know, the Epic Games lawsuit, which, you know, we got some ground back.
You're able to at least link to outside payment methods, which we still haven't done in Damas, which we should probably do.
Like right now, if you sign up for Lightning within Damas iOS, we don't link out.

(30:39):
but now we can so we should probably add that um so i'm like okay well maybe now that they've been
sued and they've been like caught in contempt of court and all this horrible shit uh maybe i can
just like try turning it on again and i so we did and it like it got re-enabled for like two months
i'm like oh cool maybe that maybe for some reason i can have it again but no like another iteration
of the review they're like no you have to remove it again so it's just like this constant back and

(31:00):
forth of just um and it's really hard to like plan to build new features around zaps because it's
like you built all this code up and now we have to like turn it off and like turn it on again it's
just very disruptive and i don't know we're a small team like i don't have full time to just
like argue with a fucking reviewer and it's just like i don't know there's something there's

(31:21):
something about it that's just feels so wrong it's like you're not my fucking you're not my
parent or something you know it's like why are you telling me this when it's completely
inconsequential you're a trillion dollar company and you're giving me a hard time about something
that's not going to have any impact on your bottom line like at all so i don't know semantics where
you're wrong like you're you're you're very easily provably wrong in your like classification of these

(31:44):
like they're it's not buying any a digital good like it it literally just doesn't violate the
policy like the policy aside like we can talk about how stupid that is but it doesn't violate
it like that was what was always just like blowing my mind is like this is just so painfully stupid
it made me realize that the guidelines aren't really real they're really just like they're there

(32:05):
and and it doesn't matter if you follow them or not they will strong arm you into removing your
app and doing whatever they want it's just because because like they don't it's not like it's a
contract you know it's just it's just a guideline and they they can change at any moment and so i
don't know well i mean it's it's honestly it's it's very similar uh like to go on the other side

(32:25):
of this it's very similar to like how youtube handles things when it comes to content moderation
like you saw people like you know bdc sessions getting de-platformed thankfully you know after
a massive public uproar he was put back on but like the fact that he was even flagged in the first
place before you know violating community guidelines which are just kind of like like
what did i violate some stuff you just did bad stuff and you're out you know and like

(32:50):
uh, simply Bitcoin, same thing happened to them. Like, sure. It'll like probably happened to me at
some point, except I'll probably actually violate the community guidelines. Um, but you know,
that's okay. We have, we have no stores of backup, but it's the same thing where it's like,
you have these, these, I mean, essentially like these tech monopolies that know that they can get
away with doing whatever they want because you don't have any other option. Like you, you don't

(33:13):
want on one side, like, you know, okay. Like you want to distribute through Apple, like, great.
You don't play by our rules, which will change, but you don't want to distribute.
Okay, like just say goodbye to like the vast, you know, over half the market.
Like just say goodbye to it.
Like you don't have access to it now.
And same thing with YouTube.
It's like, oh, you want to be top of the funnel for people learning about Bitcoin and Noster?

(33:35):
Like, okay, you know, play by our rules because otherwise we'll, you know, we'll ban you, you bad little boy.
But I don't know.
It's frustrating.
So I'm sorry for making you relive it.
But so Zaps, because I mean, I have like the, I remember you sent me like the workaround
like very early on after they banned it.

(33:56):
And I was like, oh, sweet.
Okay.
Not going to say anything about this, but okay.
It's working again.
I mean, do you think that they're going to actually make any sort of long-term policy
change?
Or do you think this is just a headache you're going to keep having to deal with?
So right now we can't update Domus.
So they haven't told us they're going to remove the app like last time, but they said
that basically until we remove the zap button,

(34:17):
again, we can't push updates,
which is really frustrating for our users.
So I'm at the point now where it's like,
there's a lot of people telling me
that the workaround is to just do what Primal did,
which is something I'm going to have to consider,
which is basically, I mean, a lot of people,
this is a theory.
They think that once we add an in-app purchase
where you can buy sats,

(34:38):
then basically all those other guidelines,
they don't really apply anymore
because I think the way that Apple looks at it
is that it's like an in-app purchase.
It's like it's an in-game currency they're purchasing.
And all those apps you send over the app are like an in-game currency.
I think that's how they think about it.
They don't really think about it.
So you pay for them once when you buy them.
You pay your haircut to Apple.
And then it's like, OK, we don't care now.
I think that's how it works.

(34:58):
So we're probably going to do that.
The only tricky thing is, is that, you know, we've always prided ourselves on being able to, like, use the app anywhere in the world.
So I just I'm not I'm never going to do something if it, like, restricts our wallet to, like, a specific locale.
But I think we can do it.
Like, I'm literally I have a lightning node.
I could just set up an app purchase to like get sats out of my node.
And it's like a super dubious legally.
And because I become like an exchange and stuff,

(35:19):
but I might just do it anyway.
Cause just to,
just to,
you know,
cause I feel like,
you know,
you just ask,
you,
you'd ask for forgiveness later.
Like I always,
that was always been my thing in life.
Just do something that's like technically not,
you know,
and as long as no one bothers you about it,
then,
and if they do bother about it,
then maybe it was okay.
I'll turn it off or like,
okay,
maybe I'll get my lawyer,
but just do stuff.
Like people are so afraid of just like doing shit.

(35:40):
Like people are so busy with their own lives and worried about their own
life.
It's like,
they don't give a shit if you're doing this weird thing over here,
maybe at a certain point,
they'll start bugging you.
But I don't know.
I always say if I get thrown in jail,
like that's just better PR for,
for Nasser anyway.
So yeah,
like I hope you don't have to like,
you know,
like ideally that'd be nice for you not to end up in jail,
but it would,
you know,
certainly add to your street cred.

(36:02):
Well,
I'm just like,
I'm going to Hong Kong.
My whole team's like,
no,
you can't go,
can't go to Hong Kong.
You're going to be like captured.
I'm like,
I don't know.
Well, I mean, kind of, again, it'd be good for our app.
Like, are you guys still, uh, you guys still banned in, uh, banned in China on the app store?
Mainland China.
Mainland.
Yeah.
And I think it's one of our, still our most downloaded regions, like to this day for that
first day, which is crazy.

(36:23):
Like we had more downloads in China that one day than we've like our total downloads, like
for its entire history.
So it's, it makes sense that China was like freaked out.
Right.
I think that's my, that's my theory is that it sent off some internal flag within their
system.
That's like, why is this getting so many downloads?
um dang yeah yeah and then like a month later they banned all of our the bootstrap relays in
the app so like they had a guy in like in the ccp the uh cyber division like looking into nostor and

(36:47):
blocking stuff so that's crazy those those are crazy times it's it's it's wild like it wasn't
that long like it feels like a long time ago but it wasn't that long ago you know i remember all
this going down and just being like damn that's feels like ancient history now oh my god it was
like two or three years ago i know it's it's crazy how uh time moves differently in the in the in the

(37:07):
the noster noster world i'm still saying noster by the way i'm just i'm not you know you're not
going to break me that habit like it's i'll die on this hill yeah noster noster whatever yeah
whatever works either way well so like okay um so what do you think as far as like i mean i've seen
like people talk about the growth on those are kind of like stagnating a little bit like not

(37:32):
seeing as many inflows i think we've also historically seen larger inflows around mass
censorship events like that's been a you know it's people running away from something versus
like running towards something it's like they're looking for any option um do you think that
continues to be the case that we like those are we like those are just always going to be the

(37:54):
biggest drivers or do you think like the hey we have a ton of really cool you know micro apps and
social media clients and all other things and tools for creators like that's going to have people just
running towards it because like oh look it's a better option or is there i mean is there some
blend of that where like yeah it's a little bit of both and it's just a really kind of slow and
steady grind because we've never had a open protocol for communication like this before

(38:17):
i think it's gonna be a combination of a slow process but also like spikiness like spikes of
certain things getting built on it.
So one example was BitChat that Jack's working on.
And he's going to add like NIP17 DMs,
a way of like sending DMs via BitChat.
Or like, so if your friend's not nearby,

(38:37):
you can still use Noster as like a way to like,
to get the message out, even if they're not nearby.
So things like that, like if you get these apps
that just go viral every now and then,
it's not like a traditional startup
where it's like it goes viral and then maybe it dies
and then everyone forgets about it.
It's like, if it goes viral,
it's like everyone the whole network kind of grows and gets kind of a a burst of energy so it's a

(38:57):
little bit different than just a typical startup so maybe it's that's that's what's gonna happen
um but maybe yeah it could just be like this forever who knows like for me it's like i'm i'm
happy like i i i'm happy i spend most of my time on nostr um i i mean i don't know it's
i don't yeah it's hard like i think the biggest issue that we're having at
domus right now is i mean the number one feedback we get is that people can't find

(39:22):
their crowd right that there's like oh it's just a bunch of bitcoiners um so building like community
tools is like has been like kind of the big focus last past year among like a lot of developers on
even jack's team the other stuff with chorus um you know there's flotilla by huddle bod um we got
chad chatter whatever chad chad wow sorry uh yeah um i've but there's so yes more solutions like

(39:46):
that could could help but it's one of those things that it's uh who knows how history is
my biggest frustration is like i tend to not get too upset over things that i don't have any control
over i mean i do have some control over like making my app more popular and more and usable
and get more people in but it kind of feels like it's out of my hands i feel like it's just gonna
be some world event that's gonna bring a lot of people in i just and i'm just trying to make sure

(40:09):
like i have the best app experience possible um just so people stick every time they come over
but that's all I can really do. And that's all I really focus on.
I know you guys recently, you, you implemented the, uh, the follow packs,
which I think is like a, a, a, a big, uh, you know, a big thing.
And I'm not sure, I don't know how it worked in the backend, but did you,
do you pull that from what Cali, uh, built or did you guys just build your own

(40:31):
version of that? Or how did that, how did that work?
No, this is the beautiful thing about Noster, right? So,
and this is what I'm talking about these apps that can go viral.
Like in some sense it went viral on Noster,
whatever that level of activity means on Noster. But, um,
Everyone immediately recognized that that's a good idea that we need.
It helps onboarding and all these things.
So that website was just generating that data.

(40:52):
So my app could just see that data on the network,
and then I can just implement a UI for that data.
So this is the power of Nostra,
where viral apps can generate new forms of data.
Other apps can consume that form of data.
And that is the thing that makes Nostra so different from other web apps.
Because web apps, it's not like you build a web app,
and you generate data,
and then other web apps start using your data.
It's like, not really.

(41:12):
like they're pretty isolated the websites whereas nostr is like no like we actually have apps that
can interoperate um and this is where that is the true power of nostr and like that's why i think
why we're we're building all this other stuff and this is what's going to get hopefully get people
excited but maybe it's too technical maybe it's too nerdy i know a lot of the devs like that idea
it's just we need to to see it play out a bit a bit more well i mean i think i think it's for

(41:34):
folks that aren't familiar it's uh it's following dot space is what uh what cali built out and i
I created a podcaster pack on there naturally, you know, just stay in, just trying to stay in my lane.
But like, I think that that, I think you're exactly right that that interoperability piece and that ability to, to leverage what other people build.
I mean, that's the beauty of open source, right?

(41:54):
Is that you, you have the ability to come like, yes, somebody else built something.
Oh, great.
You can just, you can use what they built.
But even over and above that on Noster, it's like, oh, it's not just, you can like use the code that they built.
Like you can use the data that they're generating and just, and just pull that in and surface
it in your app and make your, make your app better and create.
Now it's like, you know, I've seen multiple Noster clients that have implemented follow

(42:17):
packs.
And so it's like, wow, that's great.
Like, like more, you know, more of that.
And I think that's like, that's such a strength.
You don't have that in the siloed, uh, you know, world that we operate in today.
Like you, like that's a, it's a feature of, of Noster.
And, and there's a reason, right?
Like the web was not designed.
like the things they were protocolizing was simply ways to like talk to a server like that's

(42:39):
what their focus was like i have some documents on a server and i'm just going to pull it down
from that specific server the genius about nostr is that it made the data model and it made the
database model into the protocol um so like there's another example of that is like bitcoin i guess
is another example of this where it's like the data model is a part of the protocol like transactions
the ledger the database um and that's what gives it this insane like power and like and the fact

(43:03):
that can replicate across the entire planet.
So Nostra is just doing that for application data.
So instead of like monetary ledger data,
it's doing it for like any type of data
your application might want to generate.
It's not perfect.
Like we don't have like perfect,
like peer to peer global replicatability
of like you have in Bitcoin,
but we don't really,
I think that would actually be an anti feature
because I don't want your dick pics spam

(43:26):
like getting onto my fucking,
my client for if I don't want to see that, right?
So having this isolated,
still connected but isolated in different patches like that's a really cool way to design a protocol
i think it's so funny because you know so many of the shit coin scammers it's like you know what if
we put social media on the blockchain and it's like you don't like that like like you just don't

(43:46):
need to that's just a stupid thing you're just you're just trying to raise like vc money to then
go dump your token uh as soon as you know you've you've got retail uh hooked and just got them but
It's like, you don't want that.
You don't need a global state for that
that is replicated across every single node in the network.
It's just not necessary.

(44:07):
But shitcoin scammer is going to shitcoin scam.
Yeah, I feel like the whole blockchain, not Bitcoin thing
just dropped collective IQ points
of a large portion of the population for a good decade.
And hopefully we're recovering from that.
Still in recovery.
I don't know if that's still a thing.
If people still have conferences on blockchains,
but it's just like oh they do it's not a good database it's not a good database like just use

(44:31):
just you you just should just have a centralized database for like pretty much all of this stuff
like bitcoin is the only viable use case of blockchain that and maybe some like i'm you know
i'm not a goddamn fortune teller i'm a podcaster like i don't know anything but like that it's the
only like true legitimate use that we've seen for blockchain at this time i think that's that's very

(44:52):
fair to say and like are there some other things that might be interesting yeah but like is that
actually the best way to do it you know like for for money for like a decentralized censorship
resistant absolutely scarce money that can operate with rough consensus yeah blockchain makes sense
for pretty much everything else it's like now you just should probably just have a centralized
database or you should have distributed relays or you know whatever like in the noster sense like

(45:17):
i don't know if you i'm probably missing some very important uh use cases of blockchain now you know
of it but i don't know i'm assuming you're on the same page there yeah i mean like i'm glad we're
like this reminds me the conversations i had like 2017 and like it's bringing me back and like
and i think it it's it's important to restate it like exactly you know like why it blockchain only

(45:39):
makes sense in the context of bitcoin because you need very specific set of things that work
together like you know they have the proof of work you have like the ledger aspect you have like the
fact that it's money and it's like you have this one particular use case and all the all like all
of the things that support that data structure are toward that one goal of making a simple ledger

(46:00):
that is money and you can't just take those pieces and like make a general purpose database that's
like that's good um and this was like always something i tried to say like back in the day
in like 10 years i think it was 10 years ago now oh my god like what it was all the blockchain not
bitcoin stands like it doesn't this just logically does not make sense because it just the pieces
don't it's kind of like um what's that one that's that one term where it's like they a bunch of like

(46:23):
tribal people they were like they saw airplanes land on their island and then they like they tried
to like build their own airplanes out of like wooden sticks oh uh what the uh not uh not cargo cult um uh what the yeah it gonna oh it
gonna bug me i know that's like uh i'm gonna anyway so people know what we're talking about

(46:45):
but like i always i always look back at that because that's what the blockchain people are
doing is that they just like they're taking an existing technology that has a very specific
purpose and just like trying to build a fucking thing that's just gonna fall apart it just doesn't
make sense in any other context so um yeah i mean and then so but then when you look at nostr it's
like it's like hyper optimized database it's i think we have probably the fastest database on

(47:06):
the planet i always say that i'm like non-hyperbolically um the guy the guy who made stir
fry is like an absolute like genius at database architecture and when after reading that code basic
it literally inspired me to build the database from scratch because i just thought it was the
coolest piece of software i've ever saw in my life and just like i've never seen something so
hyper-optimized before and i think the reason he could he could actually do that is because

(47:29):
nostr scope and it's like and its structure is so simple that when you have and whereas like
a traditional database like sql no we're getting into databases it's really exciting for people
but i like it let's go traditional database like sql you have like very complex query language
right you have like support all these different indexes and like ways to aggregate stuff and ways
to like filter data and so it's very powerful but that power basically restricts the amount of like

(47:52):
optimizations you can do on the database like in general like generalized optimizations
so that's why a lot of people in in sql you have to like create these special indexes to make it
high performance if you don't have the indexes it'll fail um but like since nostril is a very
specific form it's a very specific structure he was able to build like this like super optimal
database that just like basically returns things in oh one time it's like instantly

(48:13):
effectively instantly um so i would i always say nostril if you it has the fast that's why it works
Like if it, if, if that software didn't exist, like Nostra wouldn't work.
And that, so that's good.
That gives me a lot of hope that it can actually scale up to,
because we don't even really need that level of performance.
Like in the, in the future, hopefully eventually more people are running their own nodes and like,

(48:33):
you know, it's much more distributed.
Like it's surprising we can handle so much load on a single server already.
So anyway, I don't know what that rant was.
It was a database rant, but.
No, I mean, I think like to, to the large part, it's like, it's, it's amazing how well this all works.
Right.
Yeah.
like and and sure you know it's not uh it has some rough edges right it's not uh yeah you know

(48:54):
it's not completely perfect like because you've also got a bunch of like people building independently
and then having all of this stuff kind of come together and work together and they're interfacing
with you know uh with with other apps and like so of course they're gonna be some rough edges of
course it's gonna be a little bit messy but like overall like like the fact that i'm able to have
a really positive streaming experience uh on zap.stream and broadcast that and any and any

(49:18):
client that wants to can go ahead and pick up that stream and surface it in their own application
like or you can you know just uh you know have a link to zap.stream you can do that but like
you know you can just do that you can have it and it and it like it just and it just works like you
don't have to go to youtube to watch a youtube stream you know like and granted with uh you know

(49:39):
how streaming works, obviously you can stream to multiple places,
but the point here is this is I'm streaming it to one place and that is
getting picked up by all these different clients.
Like that's just cool. Like that's a, that's a good experience.
And I think that like, yes,
back to our earlier conversation about like, okay,
we're going to keep having these waves of people running away from totalitarian

(49:59):
regimes and censorship, you know, censorship attacks and everything.
But also like,
I hope that more people start to come around to the fact that there are actually
just better experiences to be had on Noster thanks to how this interoperable network of
clients and relays works. Like that is really a powerful thing. And, you know, that's going to,

(50:21):
you know, again, I think it's, it's harder to get people to run towards something than it is to get
them to run away from something. Like when there's like a clear and present danger, you're like,
okay, I need to get away from that. Whatever I hit, you know, whatever I run into, that's fine.
But like, if things are kind of okay, if you haven't been, you know, if you haven't been
censored, like, you know, okay, you know, I'm not really too worried. And it's just, it's going to

(50:41):
take you time. I mean, it's like with Bitcoin, like people who live in countries where their
currencies have hyperinflated, grok Bitcoin a lot quicker. People who live in, you know,
in the United States, like they take some a little bit longer. Granted, we have a ton of Bitcoin
ownership in the US, but it's still like, I think the number of Cornell just put out a study and
like the number one reason for people in the US not want, not owning Bitcoin is they're just not

(51:05):
interested and it's like the highest of any like of of any of the countries they surveyed the u.s
is the highest it's like people just you know it's like why aren't you why don't you use no stir
like for most people they're just not interested but like there are more and more compelling use
cases for why you could be interested like especially as a content creator and that's
like the drum i will keep beating it's like if you're a content creator you should be using

(51:26):
no stir like if nothing like i don't view it as a backup i view it as like this is a primary part
like everything else is kind of a backup like this i think is what has the staying power
but like if you need to think of it as a backup at first to get you on here and get you start using
it do that and at least check it out you said something that reminded me of uh you know we're

(51:48):
talking about how you know we at least at the very start we're talking about how like yeah we're
winning but like not not really because i was looking at i feel like recently in the news people
have been talking a lot more about like stable coins and especially in like the southern america
and stuff like that's all they talk about it's like stable stable coins and yeah i think even
recently i saw trump was saying something like they're not going to buy bitcoin anymore i think

(52:10):
i saw that this morning i don't know if that was true i mean without giving it without giving it
too much air uh scott besant basically was on on the news and said like oh you know said positive
things like bitcoin is a store of value for the 21st century and uh and you know we're not going
to sell any of our bitcoin that we've confiscated and if we confiscate more we're also going to hold

(52:30):
on to that um but we're like not going to buy any or we're not we're not going to buy any of that
was his was his expression i think he was probably talking off the cuff and i may have tweeted and
noted some you know incendiary things in all caps to because i would like to troll a little bit but
like you know at the end of the day it's like i think people need to remember that like bitcoin
doesn't need the u.s government but the u.s government does need does need this sure um and

(52:54):
they'll realize that sooner or later i don't really care if they start buying it um i would
hope if all countries are eventually going to print their fiat and buy it i would hope the u.s
would be the first but like you know we'll see what our glorious leaders have to say about that
at the end of the day like i'm okay with sats still being cheap as cheap as possible for people
the average person for as long as possible but i digress uh yeah it's just interesting because like

(53:20):
you know even with the great success of you know the price movement i guess price movement is a
success that's one way of valuing or seeing the six i mean i look at bitcoin as a technology and
I'm like, I think it's already a success.
I don't care what the price is.
But obviously, you know, price is also a really good indicator
of like measuring how much other people believe it's also a success.
So, but I'm still like, I hear these stories about people

(53:41):
like how they're like mainly focused on,
like I've always been, my number one focus always been like,
how you get people to use Bitcoin.
Like I think that was one of the big reasons why I made the Zaps protocol
and I just wanted people to experience what it is to feel like true freedom.
them um but i do i sometimes i do look at all these other um incumbents that are just trying
to like take over the payments like the digital payments aspect and i always wanted bitcoin to be

(54:05):
that thing but i don't know it seems like stable coins are for some reason taking off and i don't
know why that is is it just like government is just like there's more startups working on that
i don't know there's like a lot more money there like it's just it seems very i don't know i feel
like i'm sometimes i'm just so out of touch with like what everyone else is doing i'm just like
working on bitcoin technology and like building stuff in like nostril and zavs but and i look at

(54:26):
the rest of the world i'm like wait everyone's not interested in bitcoin for payments they're using
tether i'm like i don't know it's it's kind of frustrating sometimes yeah i mean i think like
from the stable coin perspective it's like uh the the u.s dollar has a greater network effect than
bitcoin does at this point right like that's that's undeniable like people like all around

(54:48):
the world want us dollars more so than people want bitcoin and like like we can argue that like
that's that's foolish and they shouldn't want dollars dollars are just a shit coin but like
it's just the reality like it and it's gonna eventually you know it slowly changes but like
so i think that viewing it through that lens it's like it's natural that people especially in
developing you know countries where they have even worse fiats than we do here in the u.s or

(55:12):
than the moose knuckle currency you have up in Canada.
Like, of course, they are going to want dollars.
And if there's a way for them to have digital dollars
that they can send around on their phone,
then yeah, they're going to want that.
And like a lot of them also want Bitcoin,
but like dollars still have a greater network effect.
So I think it's just like-

(55:33):
It's a technology to get more dollar,
to get more fiat, basically.
Yeah, and obviously there's a ton of money
to be made on the stablecoin issuance side.
You know, like Tether's like the most profitable company
like in the history of the world,
like on a per headcount basis.
Like it's nuts.
And like, okay, that's something that's like,
it is obviously useful to people around the world

(55:55):
because people are using it like around the world.
You know, like whether or not that's,
obviously that's also a tool of US dollar dominance.
I think that the US government's realizing that now.
You know, whether or not that's a good or a bad thing,
you know let's let's let's see but like we can't deny that at least like like you know tether is

(56:16):
providing something that people want and people need and is useful to them and like i think that
people are going to come around to bitcoin just like people are going to come around to to noster
but like it takes time like these entrenched systems are just that they are entrenched like
they have the stronger network effects at this time it's if i if i was trying to steal man like

(56:38):
positive things about that and from in that from that perspective i can maybe make the point like
maybe it familiarizes people more with the technology and more with like interacting with
keys um and maybe that's the stage we're at is like we just got to get more people like used to
using this technology versus just like right now they're just used to their credit card and like
their banks you know pin numbers and stuff so it's just going to take a large mental shift and maybe

(57:00):
that's the same with noser it's like you know having old holding your key is still very hard
for people like i still get emails like tons of emails every day of just people like can't log in
domus like i can't post anything i'm like um and then they're all logging with their mpub i think
actually might be a bug i'm like maybe there's a bug because like i think when it restores from
backup it like uses the mpub instead of nsec okay that's probably my fault but still why these people

(57:22):
keep complaining like just get smarter oh wait that's actually a bug well this is an interesting
thing where like where uh technology and user experience can help to drive behavior like i love
what uh uh what samson and his team at aqua wallet are doing for this reason i'm to clarify i'm in no
way sponsored by them or anything i just like i i just like what they're building i like the wallet

(57:44):
it's one of one of the you know many lightning wallets i use um and they like selena started
that wallet did you at blockstream yeah so that was my me and selene's idea it was aqua wallet
no way well look at that wow this okay so i was here i was sitting back you've taken this
compliment you're like i'm like oh well you know we did we've worked hard i didn't do a lot of
programming but it was more of just like i always wanted a single sig wallet i was hired by blockchain

(58:08):
to like work on a bitcoin back end to the green wallet and like i always thought the multi-sig
wallet was kind of complicated so i'm like what if we just have like a single sig wallet that just
talks to the bitcoin core node um and then somehow that evolved into like aqua and so yeah i know
dude that's awesome now we people know that no that's this is a cool bit of lore but like
it's nice because i i also uh like if people are going to use stable coins like tether personally

(58:33):
i think it's best if they do that on like the liquid network versus like ethereum or tron i
just you know like you know because i'm a toxic bitcoin maximalist uh but but like really like
and but that experience is really nice within aqua where you basically you have that capability
to swap back and forth between bitcoin and tether and you know layer one bitcoin and they just

(58:53):
generally call it layer two bitcoin i know they're doing some kind of fancy stuff on the back like
the lightning payment takes like a little bit longer because it's like an atomic swap or something
that's going on right um but like like that's a nice experience like you can use that as your you
know you know usdt stable coin wallet but then you have a very easy way to be able to swap into
bitcoin and like even like i've literally heard uh heard paulo uh you know the ceo of tether

(59:18):
be like yeah tether's a shit coin everything that's not bitcoin is a shit coin like tether's
a US dollar stable coin. Of course it's a shit coin. Like, you know, like they, like they're
pretty hard, like from the people I know over there, at least they're pretty hardcore Bitcoiners.
Um, so yeah, I don't know. It's like, it's one of those things where I think it's a useful tool.
Um, I use stable coins like occasionally, um, not a ton, but like I do occasionally. And when I do

(59:41):
it, I do it on liquid, but, but yeah, I don't know. I'm glad these things, I'm glad these things
exist uh there are obviously some very worrisome like down the road like i don't know we're going
to see basically every major bank i think is going to have their own like little stable coin
like you know old jp morgan is just going to be champing at the bit to get their own little jpm

(01:00:03):
coin out there yeah it seems much more likely that you would see a lot of stable coin integration
integration into banks versus like have a bitcoin like transaction like a lightning transaction i
don't know yeah maybe that's it's kind of sad but it's just the maybe maybe bitcoin and lighting
will always just be that freedom technology that's just like the wild west on the side
and people who like really care about the stuff will have access to it maybe nostril would be the

(01:00:24):
same i don't know um yeah some people just don't like to you know have that responsibility they want
like someone else to handle that for them and i mean that's just a universal thing that will never
change and maybe that's just why you know there'll always be people in power who can have control
because there's always going to be people who just want to be you know they don't want to have

(01:00:45):
any responsibility maybe that's i don't know maybe that's just uh always going to be the case
yeah i mean like human nature remains relatively consistent you know in a lot of ways and like
also breakdowns of people within society like remain pretty consistent um despite the changes

(01:01:06):
that technology brings it's like you know people are still people at the end of the day
i don't know i mean i'm on the uh in terms of like okay does do bitcoin and and lightning and
nostril stays like these fringe things i mean i you probably saw this but like back in i think it
was it was february was at uh plan b el salvador uh they announced that they're going to have
tether on uh on lightning so like that you know that's another thing where it's like okay you know

(01:01:31):
that's kind of that that argument for like i mean not only like yeah bitcoin's money but like the
layers on top of Bitcoin can also be used as rails for, you know, these fiat payments. And like,
again, you can like debate whether or not people should like, yeah, fiat's a shit coin, but it's
like, but people still want to use it. Like, you know what I mean? So like, like at this point,
the market still wants to use it. So like, you know, we can, we can debate whether that's good

(01:01:53):
or bad, but it's like, it's just the reality of it. And you know, if people are doing it like on,
on lightning or on liquid things that are like Bitcoin adjacent, I think that's better.
ultimately um i'd rather see that than again like on ethereum or tron or wherever else
but yeah i mean we'll see it's a it's it's an interesting time it's an interesting time
yeah maybe uh i know as i always like to look at it from a computer nerd perspective maybe maybe

(01:02:18):
the correct analogy as a computer nerd would be like it's always just gonna be the linux you know
operating operating system and yeah there's gonna be variations there's gonna be the mac the mac os
it's you know built on you know similar ideas but and it's gonna be a little bit more locked down
of them were restricted but at the end of the day the thing that's going to be the under everything
is bitcoin and that's going to be the interoperability layer even if it's not always exposed to the

(01:02:40):
user um and that's still okay i think i think that as long as that freedom there you can always drop
down to a level where you can be free um that is that is so important because if we didn't have
that then that would be a scary future um yeah so always we have the option to drop down to that
level is pretty important i i couldn't agree more like you need that optionality like you need that

(01:03:01):
that opt out. And like, even if you still want to exist in the kind of more fiat world, like
the fact that you have a way to get out of there when you need to is really important.
I'm curious to like, just so obviously, you know, you spend your time working on,
on Damas on note deck on the these like, and this, this kind of ecosystem that you're building there.

(01:03:21):
Are there other things you touched on a couple of them earlier, but there are other things that
you see happening on Noster, either on like the social media side or elsewhere, that you're just
really like excited about or that or that you see as like oh i'd like to you know incorporate
you know x y and z in into what we're doing here at damas like that's a really neat uh neat tool
or neat uh you know feature set whatever it might be yeah i mean um i never thought it would be cool

(01:03:46):
but like the whole bit chat thing um i'm not just trying to toot jack's horn or anything but
i actually got to use it at at the portland and we at the time we had the largest bit chat group
and I actually had a lot of fun I saw a lot of cool use cases where you know I was in the I was
in the audience and like American HODL was up there and everyone in the audience was like on
bitch hat and they're like chirping him and stuff and like having a little peanut gallery

(01:04:07):
it's awesome I just thought it was hilarious and I was like I sent that photo that's like
and he was like oh that's funny but like things like festivals and so this idea so that gave me
the idea of what happens if we're in the world in this in this world where you walk if you're just
walking down the street and let's say you're having an interest of like i'm buying bitcoin
and then someone has another interest that they're selling bitcoin and then two bit chat nodes they

(01:04:31):
just detect each other and they detect that those are there's a trade that's could could be possible
it just pops up on your phone that says this guy wants to sell bitcoin and you and so like there's
i think there's a lot of cool like peer-to-peer market like buying and selling things that could
happen over like these peer-to-peer protocols um so that's why i've been having a lot of fun like
adding more peer-to-peer stuff within
NodeDeck and within the Domus Android

(01:04:52):
stack.
Being able to communicate over BitChad
is something I'm looking at right now as a
potential peer-to-peer transport layer for
Nostr.
We already have
if you're on a Wi-Fi network with
other Domus nodes, you can actually just
send nodes and it'll get them peer-to-peer.
There's a lot of fun things around there I think
are really interesting.

(01:05:14):
Outside of that, the community
aspects, the community apps, those are
going to be huge i want i want to get reddit i want reddit on on top of nostr because i think
reddit's a shithole of censorship and that's the next next thing to be cleaned up i think
um so things like that i really hopefully can start building those soon
nice that's super cool like the idea of like having kind of that localized uh

(01:05:36):
localized ability to do like a peer-to-peer bitcoin transaction from like a buying and
selling perspective obviously like you can you know you can do a bitcoin transaction anytime
you want but like i have somebody like that i want to anonymously buy bitcoin from using i mean
i don't know i guess probably probably using uh probably using tether i guess unless you uh unless
you want to meet that person physically like you're you know i so like that's a that's an

(01:06:00):
interesting question there but i think that's that's it's really neat and i think the that
the more of these like tools that we start actually like using like the largest bit chat i've had also
is two people it's just been me and carla in the house um our son's not using bit chat yet he's a
little young gotta get him on that yeah i know i know he's he's really been slack on his freedom

(01:06:20):
tech but like this stuff is really it's really cool to see it's really cool to see the like
what's possible because like these technologies that we have in this these like phones like this
is like these are supercomputers like calling them phones it just still feels like funny like
that's the thing people do on them the least and yet we still call them phones but there's so much

(01:06:40):
that can be done and it's kind of shame like it's literally has a very powerful radio and it's
actually really locked down you can't you can only use it for like talking to cell towers for the most
part but if we had the ability to just like go peer-to-peer on our phones to other nodes like
to other phones like that would be hugely empowering and maybe that's why they don't
want us to have that technology or maybe it's like interferes with the bands too much or something i
don't know but uh there's uh i always say like a conversation at a bar is this the most decentralized

(01:07:05):
thing you can do it's like completely peer-to-peer doesn't require any centralized architecture
infrastructure no cloud involved you're just having a beer with someone so i think what we're
doing well peer-to-peer technology is simply restoring that human thing we've been doing for
hundreds of thousands of years so um i think it's worthwhile having a beer or a nice glass of peony

(01:07:26):
lane wine uh who who did send me this wine to drink on the show and shout out to ben justman
for being a huge Noster bull.
And also the wine is really great
and it's all organic guys.
And he's literally paying me in the wine
that I'm drinking to say this.
So I just want to be clear there.
And he has really interesting wine threads on Noster.

(01:07:48):
I've learned a lot about wine.
And I've zapped,
those are kind of like the highest zap things.
I'm just like, it's really interesting content.
So you should definitely follow him.
It's fascinating stuff.
And like, I love the story too,
where it's like, you know, he's moved,
you know basically like moved back in the land that uh you know his dad was kind of you know
basically uh you know working on and developing and like you know just just decided like i'm just

(01:08:10):
gonna make wine i think he said over half of his sales are in bitcoin too which is like like that's
that's awesome like that's that's it's really huge like and it just goes to show you that like
there are a lot of bitcoiners who want to spend bitcoin i mean you see and you see this on
Noster every day. What is a zap? A zap is spending Bitcoin, right? Like that, that's, that, that's
what you were doing. And like, you know, if you just want to, you know, hold, hold your Bitcoin,

(01:08:35):
hodl your Bitcoin, hodl your Bitcoin, however you'd like to say it and, and not ever spend any
of it. Like, that's fine too. I don't care what you do with your money, but like shout out to the
people who are out there spending Bitcoin. I try to do it every chance I get. I mean, I do it on,
on Noster every day. Uh, but I try to do it for goods and services as well when I can, because
it's like i i think that bitcoin needs to be a medium of exchange and be used as medium of exchange

(01:08:59):
to like reach that full potential of what it can do but like you know the great thing is like
bitcoin doesn't care if you do or do not use it in that way um and as long as some people do
it'll it'll be all right uh you send you send some fat zaps out there
well so you're doing you're doing your part you know uh i try i don't know i feel like the zapping

(01:09:21):
has definitely died down a lot and that's fine obviously like the price has increased and people
you know are busy doing other things um but you know it is a very i i think it's a rare experience
a lot of people don't get to experience very often but i went to the when i was at the portland
conference and i like i haven't i haven't used lightning in a physical place in a long time
i was like wait i just like i use the new domus zapping feature or like the the paying invoice

(01:09:45):
feature so i was getting zaps from people sending me zaps on the network and i was like buy i bought
Bitcoin pin And I like that such a cool feeling that you can just like get paid in freedom units and then just like use it to buy something like in real life and i just my main goal in life is
just to get more people to experience that because there's nothing more like fuck yeah freedom than

(01:10:06):
that right it is it is pretty cool and like again i wonder how much bitcoin ngu technology
will actually end up driving people to Noster.
Like, I feel like we, like, when you first created Zaps,
I feel like there was, like, so much buzz about them,
and, like, people were just, like, super stoked.

(01:10:28):
But, like, the price was, like, pretty, I mean, that was, like,
the price was pretty low with that.
We were, like, depths of the bear market at that point.
People were just sending just fats.
It was, like, 15,000, I think, or something.
Yeah, it was literally, like, I think you released, like,
at the, like, the bottom of the bottom of the bear.
but like ralph sent like a 20 million sat zap like that's nuts he was going crazy i remember when

(01:10:50):
when jack was out there like just like he picked like a list of people that i felt privileged
enough to be on who were like active no stir either users or developers or whatever and just
like sent like a million sats to each person i was like that's like really cool and also like wow
like testing you know fat channels as well like that's that's a it's a neat thing to do i do it
occasionally just to test my liquidity i just i'll drop like 100k just make sure my node's still

(01:11:13):
operating are you dropping it to one of your nims though you're just zap washing yourself
i think the last one was like to isabella art that person i don't know i just did a cool post
i'm like i don't know it's nice to just drop some fat sats every now and then like just like
i feel like i don't know it's like going to the strip clubs like throw throw some cash and
everyone's having a good time i i've kept my zap my default zap at six nine six uh like just

(01:11:38):
forever um and if like if it's a really really banger post or somebody really brought a lot of
value i'll do a you know 69 69 and like i looked at uh i looked at my you know zap sent first
received uh on i forget where i checked this out but it was like you know i've sent like you know
millions more sats than i've received like i'm not making money on no stir but that's not my like

(01:12:01):
that's not my goal i'm not like hoarding these sats that i'm receiving on no stir and like trying
to skimp out how many I send. It's like, no, I want people like nothing feels better than getting
a really big zap because you know that somebody like actually valued what you put out there and
you know they valued it because they just sent you the hardest money that will ever exist.
And like, now I remember what I was getting to. I feel like as Bitcoin price goes up,

(01:12:25):
like, and people start hearing like, hey, there's this like social media protocol where people will
like send you Bitcoin when you, you know, I don't know, post foot pics or we got to bring
footster back to when you post foot pics or you you know like uh you know have a have a really like
hot take or you know whatever you post a beautiful piece of art or a picture of your you know family
out of you know out in the woods like that's like that's a pretty incredible thing and i feel like

(01:12:51):
like still the you know majority of the world is sleeping on bitcoin and the people that are
even aware of bitcoin many of them are sleeping on no stir and so i feel like it's it's only a
matter of time but i think we need to start uh we need to start re-stressing like hey you can make
money by shit posting and we need we need to get back to that narrative a little bit or by

(01:13:11):
foot posting either way derrick ross will be so happy yeah like i don't know i think it's maybe
there's just the fact that it's not a tangible asset in the sense that you know if you have a
kilo of gold in your hand you're like damn this is pretty baller um and like what that's what
Isn't like a Bitcoin, like roughly like that, about a kilo of gold.
So I always say like zapping is like sending chunks of gold or gold dust over the internet.

(01:13:34):
And if people just saw gold coming out of their computer, they'd be like, holy shit,
this is cool.
But maybe it's not as like impactful if it's just bits.
I don't know.
But yeah.
Yeah.
No, Bitcoin is more than a, than a kilo of gold.
I just, I just had to check a kilo of gold is like 107,000, 107,000 US petrodollar cuck

(01:13:56):
bucks um so bitcoin is uh one bitcoin is more than a kilogram of gold which is pretty wild
the fact you can teleport gold over the internet like not even gold but better gold like gold
that's like the technology that's like 100 times better than gold um it is nuts it is literally
magic internet money like that's why wouldn't you want to play with that technology just like

(01:14:17):
the coolest thing ever teleporting like real value um it's it's pretty it's pretty incredible
um and i feel like i i've been saying this a lot lately but just been thinking about this and just
i feel so fortunate to like to be alive at this place in space and time like how how lucky are we
that we get to be around for literally the the dawn of the bitcoin age like it's going to get

(01:14:41):
messy in the short term but like long term i am super bullish on on humanity because of what
bitcoin allows and like that's just a i don't know that's a really cool thing well i always say
like just imagine if you were the first person to discover the properties of gold and like and no
one else could like like well it's just like this malleable metal that's like why would you want to
use that it's kind of like useless and then um it's a very fortunate time everyone who is like

(01:15:04):
not partaking or at least like looking into it or at least learning about it you're doing yourself
a huge disservice because it's like the the best this is the most unique time like think of like
at cosmological scales like the what's the earth like 4.7 billion years or something and like we're
at this one moment in time where we create this technology that is perfect scarcity mathematical

(01:15:25):
scarcity based off the laws of physics and you're here at this point in time it's like
and you think it's a scam like can you talk about the biggest fumble of your like entire
existence i can't think of anything more important to be doing other than building on bitcoins
nothing else seems as important i like maybe i would have appreciated a bit more if i'm like

(01:15:48):
if i you know was born in a time where there's immortality but even like that would be the only
thing that'd be better than this is like the best time i can think of because every time every every
point before this point is like like people are having a bad time it's not really a bad time right
now so no and honestly i go back and forth and the whole immortality thinks like oh boy that
there it's it always sounds good but you know if i i know anything from science fiction or from

(01:16:13):
fantasy it's like there is a dark side to living forever you know especially if everybody else
around you dies um but i digress no it's it is wild to me that still so many people are absolutely
asleep at the wheel and i get it from the perspective of like you're dealing with like
you're trying to provide for your family you're trying to keep your head above water because
like the system is just you know bleeding you dry and like that that's kind of the sad thing is that

(01:16:38):
so many people are so wrapped up in the current system because they are stuck on that hamster
wheel that they can't dedicate the time to looking at the one thing that would actually save them from
that like there's a really dark yeah kind of like a really depressing irony there is like well you
kind of get stuck like because it's like how do you get out of that because you're basically just

(01:16:59):
doing you're just just paying you're spending your whole paycheck just to like so you can like pay
rent um so you're trying to like scrounge a little bit of money and be super disciplined just to put
little bit away um so i feel like my if i was in that state i would just like what my number one
goal would be was like try to start a bitcoin business and just try to get as much people
sending me bitcoin as possible because it's going to be hard to just try to make fiat and then

(01:17:22):
buy bitcoin i don't know i feel like the better way to get lots of lots of bitcoin if you had none
is just try to start a bitcoin business um but i don't know i can't think of any other any other
better ways really well and it's it's cool too because we're at this point where the because
we're still very much in the innovator phase like i don't even think we're at the early adopter
phase yet like if you look like actually from like a technology that you know the s curve

(01:17:45):
perspective like i don't think we've actually reached that uh that early adopter phase yet
uh but because of that we've got a bunch of super hardcore people who like again not everybody wants
to spend their bitcoin some people don't you know ever want to spend a single sat but like
for those of us that do like we will support businesses that accept bitcoin and especially
if you embody that ethos and like that's the great thing about Nostra right now is like you can just

(01:18:09):
you can just start a business on Nostra providing a valuable product or service and people will be
very happy to pay you in Bitcoin for doing that and maybe just send you random zaps along the way
for for your thoughts about building this you know this Bitcoin business like Ben Ben Justman is a
great example of that with with Peony Lane wine Ben I'm giving you as many shout outs as possible

(01:18:32):
for this because i'm enjoying the heck out of this wine but like like that's an awesome thing
that you can do that like you can just go start providing value for people charge bitcoin and like
if what you're providing is valuable and people want it like they will pay you in bitcoin for it
and the market isn't just like and the market isn't just like your local currency or the currency of

(01:18:54):
you know the country and it's the entire planet um so that's a that's a much wider market than uh
you know,
cause I remember I was going to a lot of these HRF events and that was,
they're,
they're saying people who are in Africa and that was kind of their biggest
struggle is just trying to get to like sell their products to the wider market.
And it's like,
it's really hard to get,
get it out there,

(01:19:14):
but on Bitcoin,
they can just put it on,
let's say Noster and start selling their product to anyone in the world without
having to try to go through all these like resellers like Amazon.
And,
and apparently it's just a lot harder to go through.
I don't know.
But yeah,
there's a lot of opportunities.
And I think that we're going to get better and better marketplaces and storefronts on Noster, like something I've been thinking about a lot as well.

(01:19:35):
We're starting to see more of that.
So, yeah, it's going to get easier and easier to start a business on Noster and to start selling stuff.
So it's exciting times.
I think that's like another thing where it's like if you're a Noster only business, which I think some of these folks are like, you know, if you want to get them, you have to go to Noster to find them.

(01:19:55):
like the that sort of no stir only uh product for and also like no stir only services uh and that
including like content creation like i love what american hodl is doing right now with his you know
no stir only vlogs like because he's a guy who has a every everybody listens when he talks right
and uh he's because he's very enjoyable to listen to and he always drops very profound things in his

(01:20:18):
very special way but like he could be you know going on x and you know doing you know live stream
on there and vlogs on there and posting these things to YouTube or wherever, you know, wherever
else. But he's not. He's making a conscious choice to say, I'm just going to do this for
Noster only. And I think that's, that's like really cool. It's why I do these live streams

(01:20:40):
just on Noster. And like, yeah, I publish them everywhere else after the fact. I'm not
quite as cool as American HODL. But like, I think that kind of like creators or especially creators
creating experiences that can only be had on Noster, I think is a really great way to,
to bring more and more people over. Cause it's like, if you like, that's a, that's a powerful

(01:21:03):
thing. People, uh, audiences follow people, right. And if you can only get a certain type of content
on this decentralized censorship resistant platform, it also happens to have a really
nice user experience for you and multiple choices and options. Like that's a great thing. So I hope
I encourage creators like to, to do more of that. If you can think of a way, uh, and you certainly

(01:21:23):
can. And I always see that as a sign of someone with great integrity and someone who's like
willing to sacrifice maybe a little bit of a bit of their, you know, because it's an opportunity
costing. They could be spending time like getting onto the bigger platforms or promoting their
content, but they believe in something that's like important. It's bigger than just making money.
And, um, and, but these, these are the things, these are, these are the types of people that

(01:21:46):
are going to make Nostra successful because the only thing that's going to draw people to Nostra
is like unique content if it's just getting cross-posted to other platforms i'm like well
they don't need to leave their platform so if they see like wait there's just so much stuff i'm like
oh i'm like well i have to go over here because this is where everyone's posting the interesting
things i want to see so that's why i've always been really in the past like i guess two or three
years now ever since i quit twitter is just um just try to yeah post everything i'm working on

(01:22:11):
every day probably too much because i'm just like i work in the open but um you know maybe it's
probably doing disservice in ostrich because some people are like oh god he's posting some crazy
shit again and they end up going away to back to the x but no but i think it's like people who
post better content is uh hopefully will it be the people who are attracting uh uh everyone else so
i'm not good at influencing i'm just good at uh i don't know posting crazy shit yeah but like but

(01:22:35):
influencing takes different forms right i think it's become such like a dirty word too uh but like
you know like what is it what does it actually mean it means that like whatever you say and do
people pay attention to like you like you obviously like you are more than uh you know i'm not going
to call you like you're just an influencer you're obviously a developer is actually building cool
shit um but like you do also influence people like very obviously like you've influenced people

(01:22:59):
enough where you have a whole team around you building this open source you know tech stack
like that that i don't know what that is if not uh if not having influence and like i think i'm
like i think it's fucking cool you influence me wild bill so there's that well i always say that
I agree that it has become like a derogatory term almost, but you're exactly, you're absolutely

(01:23:20):
right.
It's like, it's impossible not to, anytime you put something into the internet, even
if you don't think you're influencing people, it's like, you're literally influencing people.
Like every, every time that note goes into every brain, it's an influencing that brain
in some way.
It's like either making them happy, making them sad, making them angry.
It's like impossible not to influence people, even if, yeah.
So I don't know.
Everyone's an influencer.
it it makes you uh makes you kind of be a little bit more i guess mindful of what you're putting

(01:23:49):
out there too like knowing that whatever you do is going to have some sort of impact on people
um i myself am guilty of not being super mindful about that sometimes because i'm just like hey i'm
just gonna troll yeah got him uh but you know i do find that i am perhaps i'm at the same time
more mindful of what I put out, but also more free on Noster. And I think this has been a common

(01:24:10):
experience for a lot of people is that they feel that like you can just kind of be like, you don't
have to be anything but yourself. Like there's, because honestly, like authenticity is rewarded
on Noster and fakeness is rejected. Like you see, that's why a lot of people can feel that.
Yeah. Like bigger account, you know, quote, bigger accounts, like kind of, you know,
maybe came and went from Noster, but like, you know, you've got folks that are, have came and

(01:24:35):
stayed uh like you know like lynn alden for example who posts stuff exclusively uh to noser
like very unfiltered thoughts on there i mean jack as another great example a huge i mean you know
a very well-known person who has spent a lot of time on noser posting thoughts that are exclusively
found there like that you know and people have come over specifically to be able to partake in

(01:24:58):
those you know unrestricted uh thoughts that people like jack and and lynn but also that people
with way smaller you know followings have put out there so like i think that's good like we
content creators are ultimately or not just content creators like again that's that word
feels like all these words feel dirty now like we're all just people right but like yeah people

(01:25:18):
have followings now in cyberspace and if you have a large following in cyberspace and you bring that
following over to Noster that will help grow Noster like full stop like so I I hope we continue
to see more of that I think it's honestly going to take another round of vicious censorship and
crackdowns did you see any spikes like recently in the UK or I think so I mean I definitely

(01:25:41):
notice a lot more people on the network um and I assume that's because especially like I did that
tweet about like scanning the anus or whatever for some reason that like went viral on us
like the post was like oh yeah they're gonna start scanning your faith in the
so apparently people that really resonated with people because it's true it's kind of like that's
what it feels like they're just like it's so invasive and the things they're doing feels so

(01:26:04):
unnatural as like like they're just being gross right um but uh yeah it's it's uh it's true that
like what you're saying about um the whole reputation and like you can't being fake it's
it's like reputation is everything it's you know your identity is a tied your key there's no
algorithms that can like pump um so like one of the first things that's a few influencers and

(01:26:27):
like not influencers but like basically content oh god i can't even use the words but content
creators that they came to me and they're like how do i go viral on your platform like what do
i have to do how do i like game the algorithm so that i get and like that was their mentality
because like that's how they operated on instagram or whatever and um and but like that's how they
get influenced but they don't get it through authenticity they don't get it through like

(01:26:50):
like well i mean interesting content sure but they rely a lot on those algorithms kind of pump their
content but on nostr it's like you kind of really have to rely on like your reputation your reputation
is everything the minute you trash your reputation which is tied to a key like a publicly verifiable
key it's like then you kind of like you lose and that's the most important thing so i don't know i
feel like a lot of people people are a lot more authentic on austere and that's honestly just made

(01:27:13):
the network feel more like a community of people who are just like real people and not just like
this fake games that people are playing just to go viral and just to get in fights and stuff
i don't know so it feels much more like a human network yeah it's like you're if you're fake it's
like you're like literally cryptographically siding away your your soul like it's like you

(01:27:33):
just you just sold your soul and put your cryptographic signature on it so like ever
everybody now you know can see that yeah it's it's it's not i mean i think that the growth is
honestly going to be fairly slow and steady still with these kind of pumps as we saw but i'm also
hopeful that like the great thing about the fiat world is like man governments just love to do

(01:27:56):
stupid totalitarian shit so like i think that's only going to accelerate ultimately and so maybe
we get a lot faster growth than than we think and in the meantime like all of these incredible
tools like the tools that you were building like the tools that so many open source devs are
building these tools are getting better and better and better every day and finding new ways to you

(01:28:17):
know uh be interoperable together and like that like like noster is ready for for you know larger
adoption now like for a while like it kind of you know like wasn't like i mean you've been there
since the beginning you know like things were things were quick and dirty you know but like
the experience is just night and day different now and so if somebody's listening to this and

(01:28:38):
they've made it this far and they checked out Noster like a year ago or like two years ago
and said oh this isn't I don't like that like just try it again you know and if you don't like the
client that you tried try a different one you know try try Domus try other ones like that's
the great thing there's optionality like you can choose so many options there's so many options
there's jumble social which everyone really likes right now um i haven't used that one yet

(01:29:00):
oh it's like it's kind of the new hotness yeah jumbled on social i'm behind the times jeez they
have like a really cool like two um panel display where you can like scroll on one and click it
opens up on the other side like i want to steal so many things and they have like a relay viewer
and stuff i'm like i really like that idea i don't know it's just like really people are building
good stuff i i love it um is there anything else that you're working on that you want to talk about

(01:29:24):
I've kept you here for a while.
So just, but I want to make sure like there's anything else you want to tease, anything else you want to preview.
Obviously people should go, uh, should go check out, uh, Domus and use it.
It's a great client.
It's a client that I use every single day.
Um, I am not paid to say that either.
Uh, just like I'm not paid to drink Peony Rain wine, but I sure am given it, uh, by Ben.

(01:29:45):
You would like some more bottles in the future.
And I hope I did good, Ben, because boy, this, this wine is excellent.
but where what else do you want people to know or where do you want to send people uh yeah
shill anything and everything yeah so i highly recommend trying out our new client it works on
the desktop you can go to damas.io slash notedeck to download it although that build is old i should

(01:30:06):
probably push a new build uh at the end of the month i will be announcing a new client that runs
on mobiles and you can probably guess which mobile client that is so come check it out bitcoin asia
and yeah
it's
and you know
our future prospects
for Notetech
are a little
there's a lot
like I think
I've talked about it before

(01:30:27):
but it's not just
another client
it's going to be
a new type of
platform for building
Nostra apps
so yeah
definitely check it out
you'll get a sense of it
when you download it
because we have like
an AI agent inside of it
it's kind of like
Grok for Nostra
we have
I'm building this like
tool that you can like
you know
if anyone's ever used
Obsidian
it's like Obsidian
on Noster. We have like, I have a built-in

(01:30:48):
lightning node manager in it now.
So it's basically like an
app browser for Noster
that's like going to support
dynamic loading of apps. Anyway, so it's like,
it's really cool. New technology. Check it out.
Yeah, and you can follow me on Noster,
JB55 at JB55.com.
It's my Noster address. So, yeah.
Oh, man. Thanks so much for coming on again.

(01:31:08):
This was long overdue.
It's always great chatting with you. I will not
be at Bitcoin
Asia, unfortunately. I'll have to check out the
stream. Um, but hopefully we get a chance to reconvene in the flesh again soon. Have a,
have a drink together in person. Absolutely. Maybe, hopefully. I was going to say,

(01:31:29):
thanks so much. And thank you to everybody who joined in on the live stream. I appreciate you
guys. If you want to watch this show live, the only place you can do that is on Noster. So go
and check out Noster and uh come and watch this show live in the future yeah and thank you to
everybody who joined and thank you to everybody who zapped too 5,282 sats that's that's pretty

(01:31:52):
cool wow that's generational wealth that's nice i'm gonna go zap it all away now uh you know pay
it forward but rp and y on on me maybe maybe all right man cheers all right cheers bye

(01:32:12):
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.

(01:32:34):
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America.
And find this podcast on X and Instagram at titcoinpodcast.
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links, head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you and head to Bitcoin podcast dot net for everything else.
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

(01:32:58):
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast.
Until next time, stay free.
Thank you.

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CENSOR THIS PODCAST: NOSTR & BITCOIN VS TOTALITARIANISM | Will Casarin (jb55)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}CENSOR THIS PODCAST: NOSTR & BITCOIN VS TOTALITARIANISM | Will Casarin (jb55)