'FINDING HOME': BITCOIN, FOOD, FREEDOM, & FAMILY | AVI BURRA - THE Bitcoin Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
There is no hope for them, right?

(00:01):
They're living in this world of anger and despair
because they're like, well, we're screwed.
Like, what can we do?
And there are other people like that,
even on any side of the political spectrum, right?
I like to believe they're all good people.
Some of them might be misguided,
but a lot of them are in despair
because they don't see the hope.
With finding home,
and because I'm not emphasizing Bitcoin all that much,
it's really a food and travel show.

(00:22):
And yes, Bitcoin's in the background.
I want to show people that there are these people
living incredible lives of hope, of creativity,
just, you know, building things
because they love what they're doing.
And they're having these rich experiences.
And when people watch that and they're like,
but how are they doing that?

(00:43):
My life sucks.
And that's where the Bitcoin comes in and say,
oh, wait a second, maybe there is hope.
I think for Bitcoiners who think they understand,
as you said, low time preference
and all the philosophy that we spout all the time.
Having a kid just makes you realize
what it all means. It really falls into place. So just going back to the earlier point, without

(01:04):
maximal adoption of Bitcoin, the revolution has failed and our children will not be living in the
world that we want to give them. So this is my way of telling stories, of appealing to people's
emotions, because I think that is what scales adoption more than appealing to people's intellect.
You can lecture them on Austrian economics and distributed networks and what have you. And,

(01:24):
And, you know, you'll get a few people, right?
There are more cerebral kinds.
You might get them, convince them through the subtle art of argument.
But appealing to their emotion, appealing to their soul, I think you get a lot more.
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.

(01:45):
My name is Walker, and this is The Bitcoin Podcast.
Bitcoin continues to create new blocks every 10 minutes and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.
If you are listening to this right now, remember, you are still early.
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash Walker and this podcast at primal.net slash Titcoin.

(02:08):
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America.
And find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast.
Head to the show notes for sponsor links, head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you and head to Bitcoin podcast.net for everything else.

(02:29):
Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.
How many episodes now of Pleb Chain Radio have you guys done?
121.
Yeah.
That was the last one.
Dude, that is awesome.

(02:53):
It's incredible.
And you guys have done such a nice job with that show.
And just like, I don't know, it's great to see.
We need more Bitcoin podcasts.
We need more Nostar podcasts.
Although I've also been debating recently.
I'm like, God, you know how this is.
It's so hard to reach outside the echo chamber, right?

(03:15):
But just whether that be the Bitcoin echo chamber, the Nostra echo chamber, it's so hard to reach outside of it.
And part of me is like, you know what always works for people is fucking political podcasts.
Like for some reason, people flock to those, like, I don't know, flies to shit.
And part of me is like, you know, maybe I just need to start like a political focused podcast and get a couple of episodes where I'm just, you know, ranting and doing the whole political thing.

(03:44):
and start just inserting in Bitcoin stuff kind of subtly, you know, in a sly roundabout way,
because it's just like, man, you want to, I mean, you know, this feeling you want to,
you want to help people. You want to spread the good word about Bitcoin or about Noster.
And it's just like, most people just can't be bothered. But then I come back to like,

(04:04):
maybe, maybe it's not our jobs to save them, but I want to, but I don't know if that just makes me
naive or what or uh too you know too i don't know i i don't even really know what i'm saying more
than just it's like man i wish people gave as much of a shit about uh you know monetary and

(04:24):
communication freedom as they do about the real housewives of yeah insert city and maybe that's a
losing battle though well i think you're right it is a challenge and you can get lost in that
frustration right frankly it's hard to break out even within our little niche right with the twitter
or the x algorithm like you post something it goes into the void for the most part even on

(04:49):
nostril right it's it's there's no algo it's a chronological feed but you know you've got to keep
if you're producing something that's meaningful right and you want people to see it you've got
to go and keep reposting it be your own algo otherwise it's just lost you know and it's it's
funny too like i uh i i for a while like was not reposting any of my own stuff because i was like

(05:12):
some somehow had this in my brain from the from the centralized algorithm platforms they're like
now you know reposting your own stuff is lame or cringe or something like that then i was like okay
on a noster it's kind of a necessity because it's like you need to if you like you want people to
see the work that you're doing you do the work presumably because you believe it has value and
that's why i know you do the work that you do that's why i do the work that i do but it's like

(05:36):
So, you know, just kind of get over yourself and hit that re-note button over and over and over again until it gets out into the space more.
But I am glad to see that there's more algorithmic choice happening on Noster now.
I mean, even stuff like this isn't algorithm-based, but like the follow packs that Callie had developed.

(05:57):
I also love that it's like, oh, yeah, I'll just, you know, Jack said the one thing missing from Noster that Blue Sky has was follow packs.
So I guess I'll just do my Cyberpunk thing, code up some follow packs and like just, I don't know, it's incredible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The beauty of Nostra is it's so easy to build these things.
You have an idea and you build it, right?

(06:19):
It's a fairly simple and composable stack.
And now with some of these vibe-coded solutions that are out there, everyone's a dev now.
What's the one, Shakespeare, that's part of this thing?
Jack's funding, right?
Shakespeare that's like basically sets you up to be able to vibe code Noster app specifically,
right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it started off. Which is awesome. Yeah, that the and other stuff

(06:43):
initiative. I'm sure you know this Walker, but maybe for folks who are unfamiliar. So Jack set
up this initiative called and other stuff. And there are five pillar four or five pillars in it.
One is around privacy, I think.
Callie is leading that.
There's another one that Jeff G is leading.

(07:03):
Rabble's got communities.
And then the fourth one is AI, which is what Alex Gleason is leading.
And then they launched this thing called MKStack first, or MKStacks, about a month or two ago,
where you can vibe code, basically, in natural language, using something that looks like Goose.
Build Nostraps.
And then now Shakespeare is sort of the next iteration of that.

(07:26):
I love it. And honestly, like, you know, people, I still see people on because I'm yes, I'm still a, you know, a cuck who's on X, right? I'm still using it. But I see people on there all the time, just really like attacking Jack a lot.
and there's probably some fair criticisms in there from prior stuff i think people also

(07:51):
underestimate how much power the ceo of a publicly traded company actually has uh when the government
comes knocking your door and it's like i i love to see what he's doing now first of all he's not
only is he funding awesome open source development but he's back to coding himself now you know i i've
uh bit chat for one the you know bluetooth mesh network completely offline which again

(08:14):
to give Callie another shout out.
He ported it over to Android from iOS,
started sending e-cache over it within hours,
and it's just like, wow,
you've got to love the pace of open source dev.
And then Jack did another one.
It's, what is it?
I think it's just sun, or I don't know.
I've been using it actually like-
Or the sun timer, right?
Sunday, Sunday.

(08:34):
I've been using it literally actually every day
because I was just curious and it's kind of fun,
and I spend a lot of time outside,
unless I'm in my dark room here.
So, yeah, it's great to see. I think that's a vibe shift is Jack getting back into coding. It feels that way.
Yeah. Yeah. I think for sure. And I think more broadly with AI assisted coding, right? A lot of semi-technical people or lapsed engineers, myself included, by the way, in that list. There were so many ideas that folks, you know, semi-technical people have and they've had over the last, whatever, five, 10 years. And it's like, oh, yeah, it would be nice if I could raise some money to hire the devs to build this.

(09:20):
And now you're in a place where you can vibe code it.
Now, it won't be a full production thing necessarily, right?
But you can fast prototype it, get people to test it.
And potentially, if you have the money like Jack does, you can hire the team to build it out.
Or it's much easier to raise funding as a solo entrepreneur now because you can have these quick prototypes.

(09:44):
Yeah, you can get to an MVP with never-before-seen speed.
and oh yeah and decent quality like yeah it's not going to be perfect it's an mvp
but it's it's on the right track there and that's just like yeah i feel like that's uh
this word gets thrown around a lot but it's very democratizing you know it opens up doors to a lot

(10:07):
more people and i mean as as like jeff booth always likes to talk about the marginal cost
of production trending towards zero thanks to technology yeah it used to cost you a lot of money
to get to a minimum viable product for an app.
Now it's like the cost of your ChatGPT subscription
or you can use, there's a number of free tools
depending on how much, what you need.

(10:29):
Like there's so many open source tools.
Like all of these costs are trending towards zero essentially.
And that's when priced in fiat.
And then if you check what's the marginal cost
trending towards when priced in Bitcoin,
it's accelerating towards zero even faster.
And so it's just, it's cool to see it.
It's a chaotic time, but it's a hopeful time, Avi.
oh it certainly is and you know i people i don't think a lot of people realize what an incredible

(10:54):
confluence is happening at the intersection of ai bitcoin and nostril and i'll throw e-cash in there
as well i don't know if you've if you've seen this this came out a couple of months ago it's
something called routster have you heard of no i i have not heard of this okay so there's this guy
shrumanik young guy and i actually met him when i was in prague last month uh but i uh he developed

(11:15):
this thing called Rostor. It's built on Nostor.
So, take
a step back. If you're a developer who's
trying to make API calls to AI
engines, like ChatGPT or whatever
it is, you have to go to OpenAI.
And this is a little
the API subscription is a little
different from your regular membership
or whatever, your regular
subscription. You have to go there. Now

(11:37):
OpenAI makes you do
full KYC.
You have to hold your phone
up, record a video of yourself, take
your driver's license to get that API key from them.
And the others do this too, by the way,
Anthropic, Claude.
So Routster, this guy came up with this genius idea.
I don't know how he did this at the back end,
but you get an eCache token, right?

(11:59):
You get an eCache token and you paste that
in the place where you would put your API key.
Behind the scenes, everything is taken care of.
So it's no KYC AI usage.
You can call any model using an eCache token
instead of an API key.
Wow. So he's basically taking the KYC on himself, taking that presumably to at least port into all of these different models.

(12:24):
And then has made it so that basically all you need to do is stay anonymous, drop an eCash token in there.
I mean, that's incredible.
Yeah.
That's really cool.
Because he's building this on Noster, you can be a provider, meaning you can be the entity that takes on the KYC.
So you're essentially arbitraging KYC, right?

(12:45):
And eventually the way I see this evolving is you'll pick your provider based on web of trust on Nostrad.
Like, yeah, this guy has all the people I know, are friends with this guy or whatever, are in the web of trust.
So I'm going to pick this provider, no KYC.
I can call any AI model.
Now, obviously, you have to pay for the compute, which is where the e-cash comes in, right?

(13:05):
So, yeah.
Well, I think it's fascinating, too, with eCash, because this is something that, to your point about Web of Trust, is going to be kind of vital for eCash.
For people, like, because, I mean, and Callie himself has said this.
Like, he said this on, he was on the show maybe almost a year and a half ago now talking about Cashew in its slighter earlier days.

(13:28):
Like, so much has been built since then.
But he was saying, look, this is not layer one Bitcoin.
You can get rugged.
like yes like it you should know that up front but like when you incorporate the web of trust
into that then it becomes okay i'm decreasing my rug risk because you know what avi is somebody
that i trust he's connected with a lot of people that i trust if avi rugs this mint well like

(13:51):
i'm gonna make a stink about it other people are gonna make a stink about it that's gonna ruin his
his reputation and your reputation is ultimately worth a lot more than a few sats i mean hopefully
for somebody like you.
It is, you know?
For sure.
And I think there's something
really interesting coming
down the pike here, Walker.
And so there's this company, Fanfares.

(14:12):
They're about to launch their version
to in the next month or two.
And they're making the case,
you mentioned reputation, right?
It's pivoting the attention economy,
which is what we've been plagued by, right?
Advertisers and everything else.
Flipping the script
and making it a reputation-based economy.
So any content you consume
comes from a source you consider reputable.

(14:33):
And that source, if they want to maintain their reputation,
whether it's to be a provider for no KYC AI,
whether it's to run a mint on cash or whatever it might be,
it could be book or movie recommendations even,
they have to think long and hard about their reputation
and the risk it could take or the hit it could take
if they recommend something bad.

(14:55):
And so you can actually cut advertisers out of the mix
and move to a purely reputation-based system.
So that's, fanfares is one,
it's all NOSTA based, by the way, that's coming.
And there are others who are thinking
along these lines as well,
sort of move from the attention economy
to the reputation economy.
Well, and I think in, let's call it the post-AI future,

(15:20):
where AI is ubiquitous
and where you could argue that we're already there.
I mean, I think people may debate this,
but the future is here.
It's just not evenly distributed yet, but it's in some small part.
It is at least here.
But in that future, reputation starts to matter so very much because when everything is is forgeable, when everything and everything is infinitely replicable, when any you have to doubt any interaction you see online and wonder, did this really happen?

(15:52):
or is this i mean like the even i was just messing around with um with uh gemini and vo3 and like
it's crazy how good it is already and it's it's getting better and even you know mid-journey it
now has the ability to animate stuff like there's so many different tools you can use and it's all
accelerating and at a time when this is happening and it is we are still at the infancy like it is

(16:14):
going to get to the point you're like i can tell that you know it's you can't even tell based on
the fingers anymore. You know, that was like the dead giveaway for a while. I was like, well,
there's 18 fingers on one on that woman's one hand. Like that's obviously AI. Now it's like
the fingers are good, but there's still little things. It's like, you know, we're somewhere in
that weird uncanny valley where you can like, it's pretty realistic, but you can still kind of tell,

(16:35):
but it's going to get to the point where even a trained eye will have a lot of difficulty.
And so what matters in that post AI future where you don't know what is real and fake? Well,
you can't tell unless something is cryptographically signed.
If it is not cryptographically signed, you should not trust it.

(16:56):
And so then that reputation,
the reputation of you hold being the key bearer of that cryptographic
signature, that matters a lot because that's proof of humanness.
And without doing the weird world coin eyeball scanning,
which is like their whole thing too.
Sam Altman, like, oh, wow, that's funny how that worked out.
Like he's taking away the ability to distinguish who's a human and not.

(17:16):
And then, but he provides a perfect solution.
And just let me scan your retina real quick.
It's not a big deal.
Right.
And proof of humanness manifests itself in two ways, I think, two very key ways.
One is what you just said, is that cryptographically signed events, right?
And you tie your reputation to that.
The second is authenticity.
In a world of slop, which, and let's be honest here,

(17:37):
I mean, if you look at some 99% of images and videos on X especially,
but even on Nostra, up your slop.
and that human creativity expressed through authenticity,
I think will stand out.
That's my bull case anyway.
Or we just go into this dystopia,
this brave new world where we're being fed slop in our brains,

(18:00):
eating, watching, whatever it is.
But no, as a Bitcoin, I'd rather stick to the bull case.
I'm with you there.
Bitcoiners are nothing if not optimistic.
We're incredibly realistic.
Also, because you have to be in order to see how kind of fucked up the world is.
Right.
But and without Bitcoin, you'd probably go from realism to nihilism.

(18:23):
But because Bitcoin exists, we Bitcoiners get to be optimistic about the future and Noster exists.
So I'm even more optimistic.
And people like you exist who are not producing AI slop, but perfect transition are producing really incredible film.
And that's why that is why you're here today.
let's talk about that a little bit because I want to make sure we get into that and then we can come

(18:47):
back to all manner of things AI related but this is certainly not slop you've got a pilot episode
out of your new show Finding Home let's talk about this because this is a this to me seems to be
Bitcoin content that's not about Bitcoin but has a little Bitcoin heartbeat going along it so talk

(19:10):
to me about it. What is it, first of all, how did you decide to even start doing this?
Yeah. The origin story is interesting, Walker, because you were tangentially involved in this.
You might not remember this, but it was at BTC Prague in 2023, where you and Carla were there.

(19:30):
And the morning of, I think, the first or second day, I was just sitting and thinking,
you know, wouldn't it be nice to do something truly original?
And it also has to be something that I enjoy doing.
And, you know, I was still in the process of writing my book at that time.
It's a Bitcoin novel.
So, yes, I suppose you could call that original as well in the Bitcoin world.

(19:51):
But I said, what would be cool and what I'd really enjoy doing
is making an Anthony Bourdain-inspired food and travel show with Bitcoiners
as a sly roundabout way of orange filling because everyone loves food.
Everyone loves travel.
No one did it better than Bourdain.
He was a philosopher, first and foremost, more than a chef or whatever it was, right?

(20:13):
So just take a leaf out of that book.
Obviously, there is only one, Bourdain.
So really view him more as a North Star or an inspiration and try and pay homage to that.
So this was over two years ago, June of 2023 in Prague.
that evening uh if you remember we were at that a dinner a group dinner joe nakamoto his now fiance

(20:34):
sophie you carla and i and a couple of others where they were they had these fire breathers
or fire dancers and whatnot fun dinner and we were sitting in the in the patio after we'd finished
eating and i'd mentioned this to you guys i we'd had a few drinks by then so i forgive you for not
remembering i'm remembering it now and it was more than a few i think to be fair it was a it was a

(20:55):
fun atmosphere it was it was certainly a fun atmosphere and i and i so that i had the idea
that morning and i mentioned it to you guys and he said yes absolutely you should do it uh now
these things take time and part of it is you need yes it was an idea yes it was something that i was
i was excited by but they at least for me right i need to get to a point where the mindset shift

(21:21):
happens and saying, you could just do stuff. Because here's the problem, right? The mind,
the cerebral cortex can come up with all sorts of reasons why something can fail. And I listened
to that for a long time saying, yeah, you know, it would be amazing, but you got to get it funded.

(21:43):
You know, I'm not, I don't want to do a simple iPhone production. I want to, you know, have,
make a proper production with actual cameras and Netflix quality.
Well, where am I going to get the money for it?
I have a fiat job, you know, all of that stuff.
And finally, I reached a point maybe a year afterwards.
I was at the Bitcoin Film Fest in Warsaw in April of last year, 2024.

(22:06):
And I bumped into Parker Worthington, Webworthy.
He's the filmmaker for BTC Pay Server, works very closely with Rockstar and others.
And they were premiering their film there, My Trust in You is Broken.
And he directed that.
So we got chatting and I told him about the idea.
He said, this is amazing.
I want to help you out.
So it took us a few months to identify the right target.

(22:29):
And then we found this place in Harlem, a Somali restaurant called Safari.
The owner is a Bitcoiner.
They accept Bitcoin.
I said, let's film that.
And by then, this is what the idea had become.
originally it was as i said baudin inspired show but with bitcoiners there's a sly roundabout with

(22:50):
orange billing but i thought it would be really cool to tell expat stories not just any bitcoiners
with bitcoin are expats or bitcoin are immigrants because there's a parallel story to be told
just as the expat or the immigrant is finding a new physical home because they're bitcoiners they're

(23:10):
also in the process of finding a sovereign home in Bitcoin.
So that's what the story devolved to.
So Shakib was from Somalia originally.
He moved here over 20 years ago to New York.
So yeah, filmed there.
It took a while to get all the editing and everything done.
Parker is an incredibly busy man with all of his BTC pay and other commitments.

(23:34):
And then had it ready.
Ironically, I wanted to find a home for the show itself.
looking for studios and so on.
And obviously, you know, it's a pilot.
I have no, I'm an engineer for heaven's sake, right?
I have no sort of history making anything like this.
But yeah, eventually got it in front of a lot of people

(23:58):
in private, got their feedback, tweaked it a little bit
and then launched it on IndieHub as of last week.
IndieHub is this lightning enabled pay-per-view platform.
So this is just the beginning.
If the pilot was just me getting comfortable with the format, right, and the storytelling and so on.
But yes, there's going to be a lot more.

(24:20):
Filmed a second episode when I was in Prague last month.
That's in post-production now and a few others planned.
I love it.
Actually, I hadn't used IndieHub before until I paid with Lightning to watch the film, which I love any opportunity to pay with Bitcoin.
And, of course, if anyone from the IRS is listening, I'm definitely reporting all of those transactions exactly as I should, naturally.

(24:49):
And your Zapps, too, let's not forget, are Nostra.
All of them, yes.
You write them down on a piece of paper.
Yeah.
And, I mean, those are actually donations to my personal 501c3, so it's okay.
I get a lot of money from USAID as well.
But, no, I digress.
So, I loved the first episode.
And I, again, I love this idea of Bitcoin content.

(25:11):
It's not explicitly about Bitcoin.
It's part of the story.
It helps you make your decisions about, like for you, I assume, you know, who are you going to talk to next?
Who are you going to cover next?
That's part of it, right?
It's leading you in the right direction.
But it's not just this, you know, it's not a Bitcoin podcast.
It's something different.
You're eating good food.

(25:32):
You're talking.
and I'm curious too I mean can you maybe share a little bit of just your story like what what does
finding home mean for you because I sense that this is also a a deeply personal question
yeah it certainly is so you know I was born in India and spent my childhood there and I
came here for grad school a long time ago actually a few months after 9-11 interestingly enough

(25:57):
really okay I moved to New York yeah when everyone said why you moved to New York that's crazy
I said, hey, that's what I'm going to do.
And, you know, I never felt fully at home in India, which is kind of odd growing up there.
I had friends.
I had, you know, obviously family.

(26:17):
But much as I love the country, much as I love the food and the people, never felt fully at home.
New York City, I would say a few years in, was the closest I felt.
to being home. But even then, I was still, you know, I was a foreigner, especially my first few

(26:38):
years, moved in there. And then, you know, the pandemic hit a few years later, five years ago.
And we had to, we had a son was nine at that time, and we had to leave, my wife and I, and
because it was just not safe New York City went nuts during the pandemic as a lot of the big cities did We left Chicago too So I feel you there We were like get us to bumblefuck nowhere and fast

(27:06):
We'll just stay for three weeks, though, till this blows over. And then it was like three years later.
How'd that happen?
That is exactly what it started with an Airbnb in the middle of nowhere in the mountains of upstate New York.
And next thing we knew, we put an offer in for a house and we're here.
But even here, I mean, this more so, culturally, I do not feel at home.

(27:28):
I mean, it's nice.
It's lovely.
The nature is amazing.
And it's, you know, we have pets now.
So incredibly grateful for everything that we have here.
But I just don't fit in.
You know, Bitcoin happened shortly before we moved there.
So as a Bitcoiner, you're around people who have no clue, right, of what's going on.

(27:52):
And there's a lot of good people here in the community, but a lot of despair because they understand the problems and they just don't see the solution.
And I've tried to talk to them about Bitcoin and they don't get it.
It's like, oh, no, it's digital money.
We understand cash.
I'm in a very, let's just say, rural part of upstate New York in the mountains.

(28:17):
And a lot of despair here.
And it, yeah, you know where I do feel home is at Bitcoin gatherings, at Bitcoin conferences.
And it's a fleeting ephemeral thing, right?
You're there and it's just incredibly intense thing.
I mean, you know, we have dinners like the one we were at in Prague.
Every conference is like that.
And it's like, wow, I actually belong.

(28:40):
These are my people.
This is my tribe.
This is, you know, Bitcoin is a country in some sense.
but yes, finding home for me
I don't know if I've ever felt
fully home in a physical
space
fully home, maybe partly home
but not fully
but certainly in the sovereign sense
I am home in Bitcoin

(29:00):
You know
it's so funny what you say about
that fleeting
ephemeral feeling that you try to
hold on to after a Bitcoin conference
being around people
that get it. And it won't always be this way, right? When Bitcoin is ubiquitous,
of course, it won't be such a great filter for people. But right now it is. It's a great,

(29:22):
I have met more people than I can possibly count that I just have admiration for, have respect for,
have love for. I didn't realize I was going to meet so many people at this point in my life.
I'm not that old. I'm in my early 30s. But still, it gets harder to meet people that you actually

(29:42):
click with and you want to spend time with. But through Bitcoin, that has happened for Carla and
I. And I just, I feel so grateful. And I have to think it's almost, it's similar to that experience
when you go to a Bitcoin concert, and you come back to the real, you know, quote, the real world,
whatever, Normie land, right? Normie land. And you're still kind of, you're kind of high off

(30:03):
that experience, you know, but it's like you're coming, it's like you're coming out of a trip,
right? And, and, and the, you know, the high is starting to fade, because you're realizing the
reality doesn't look, it doesn't look the way you want it to you because you've seen how reality
should look. And you wish it could stay that way. But it's, it's just not the case. And you try to
hold on to it, you try to, you know, you try to orange pull your friends, you try to do these

(30:25):
things, but it's, it's just not quite the same. But again, I think we're, that's the beautiful
thing, at least at this time about Bitcoin conferences, about Noster conferences or
on conferences it's really special right now like it's you know it was that quote from the office
uh it's like andy's like i you know i wish there was a way to know that you're in the the good old

(30:48):
days when you're in them it's like we're in them guys like we we are in them right now cherish these
moments because it will not always be this way yeah for sure actually by the way walker you made
a Freudian slip and he said Bitcoin concert and it's funny. Did I really? Oh, excuse me.
You did. No, no, no, no, no. But maybe. I said that because I said the same thing. I made the

(31:12):
same Freudian slip earlier today, two hours ago, and I was talking to my wife. I said Bitcoin
concert and she said, did you just say Bitcoin concert? Well, well, well. Yeah, exactly.
We're going to have to have a talk after this for a planning session. But okay, I digress.
Okay, I want to know more too, because I watched the episode.
I liked it very much.

(31:33):
You're, first of all, from a guy with, dare I say, a great voice, if I'm not being too bold.
You have an incredible voice.
You've got the perfect voice for this kind of show.
For anyone that hasn't checked this out, you can go on Avi's Nostra.
You'll see the links.
I'll drop the links in the show notes afterwards.
You should watch this show, about 33 minutes or so.

(31:55):
Perfect length for an episode.
it was just enjoyable to watch.
I love food.
I love to cook.
I love to eat.
I love to hang out and try new foods.
And that was this show.
Like you captured, yes, Bourdain is Bourdain,
but you're, you know, Avi is Avi.
And you captured something, I think,
that felt really special.
It seems like the response has been

(32:16):
overwhelmingly positive and supportive.
Fair to say?
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, this is new, right?
There are a lot of podcasts
and they're excellent podcasts as well.
And I think this is, I mean, it's not quite a podcast,
but there is a 15-minute conversation over food in the episode.

(32:42):
So I think it is an interesting twist and people have appreciated it.
And also food is so primal for people that it almost,
when you're eating especially, you're sort of out of your conscious mind.
especially if you're eating something you really like.
You're no longer, you know, your brain isn't working.
It's your soul and your whatever it is, your heart that's there.

(33:06):
So you can get that even when you watch people eating really good food, right?
You can briefly step out of that thing.
So my, I guess, slightly insidious idea here is when I get people out of that,
if I can get them into that state where there's not fully in their brains
but more in their heart and their soul, you slide Bitcoin into that slightly ajar door to their subconscious mind.

(33:34):
Yeah, look, one thing I'll say is this episode was just the beginning, right?
It's me getting used to the format.
I think you'll see once the Prague episode is out and then I'm filming a third one in Paraguay in September,
the narrative arc is going to become a lot more cohesive.
I don't think I'm going to do like a 15-20 minute stretch of just non-stop talking.

(33:55):
It's going to be cut in with a lot more.
You know, with New York, we had one day.
So we had about three or four hours of footage.
And boom, we were done.
I think the way to do this is film over three or four days, which is what I did in Prague.
Get about 10 hours of footage in various different locations so that you can keep the action going.
Not in just one place over time.

(34:15):
So, yeah, it's fun, man.
And the food part, certainly as a food lover myself, it's great.
I mean, three or four hours of footage for over 30 minutes of finished cut is actually, that's a wild ratio for this kind of thing.
Like that's super impressive because it's still, I didn't ever feel like it was dragging or anything like that.

(34:38):
So that's really impressive.
You guys did quite a condensed effort on that one.
That's awesome.
Yeah, yeah.
And Parker, all credit to Parker for that, who unfortunately is such a busy and in-demand man that he, for the next two episodes, it's not going to be him.
However, for the Prague episode, I found a really talented young filmmaker.

(35:02):
He's a Bitcoiner, a guy called Kyle Huber.
And he was on his way to Bulgaria.
And he's filming his own Bitcoin documentary there.
But he made a stop in Prague.
And he helped me with the filming.
and it's being edited and directed by,
I'm really excited about this,
by Lahav and Noah.

(35:23):
So Noah Grumman is the lead singer
for the metal band Scardust.
And they're big on it.
You know, they did the Satoshi video
from a couple of months ago,
two or three months ago.
And Lahav is the filmmaker
and their partners, Noah and Lahav.
And amazing director.
So I'm really looking forward to what they come up with.

(35:48):
That's awesome.
I mean, have you thought about, obviously, in this case, it happened just because of scheduling.
But have you thought about making that just a recurring theme that you have different filmmakers, different directors come in, add their spin to each episode while you still obviously have the vein of yourself running through it all?
But is that something you're toying around with?
Okay.

(36:08):
I like that style.
Necessity is the mother of invention, right?
It is because the thing is, look, if this is a well-funded project, if I had an executive producer putting in 100 grand or even 50 grand per episode, then I could hire a team, especially at the 100 grand range.
I could hire a permanent team, right?
Directors, editors, social media, all of that stuff.
Now, first two episodes completely out of my pocket, which is not really sustainable, by the way.

(36:32):
I can imagine.
Right. But what it's going to have to be is – so for Paraguay, the third episode, I'm filming at the Accelerating Bitcoin Conference.
And I found an amazing subject for that as well, another finding home story there in Paraguay.
I found an executive producer who's been very generous, but obviously we're not talking about 100K.

(36:57):
And I'm actually using this platform called Angor.
It's a fully self-custodial fundraising platform that's built on Bitcoin and Noster.
It's kind of really cool, actually.
And I've raised some money on that.
I just saw this, that you posted about this or reposted them on Noster.
I hadn't heard of them before, but I was like, oh, this is really cool.
Yeah, it's really cool.

(37:18):
And again, it's new, right?
So I'm helping them out by trying out something new.
And they're helping me out as well by putting it out there.
So, yes, I have to fundraise.
But all of that to say, because this is, I'm trying to create a high quality product, a Netflix quality product with, frankly, a shoestring budget.

(37:39):
I'm going to have to do it with different teams, right?
Because I cannot have.
So what I end up sacrificing there is potentially visual cohesion because it's different people filming it.
And they're going to have slightly different angles and slightly different way they think about how light hits subjects and things like that.
So I sort of forego that visual cohesion.

(38:02):
But what I will have to do, and I am going to do this, is tie together with the narrative or the storytelling cohesion because I'm going to be there.
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, and honestly, I think that's a it's a cool way to be able to, you know, perhaps unintentionally so, but necessarily so have a lot of visual diversity with as you're having a lot of different culinary diversity.

(38:26):
Right. You're doing different types of food, all this. You're going to have a slightly different vibe to the film style for each one of them.
Honestly, I think that plays really well. And even if it even if it didn't, it's what you got to do.
So you may as well make the best of it.
I think that's great.
And I saw your, yeah, I think I saw Angor, you posted it.

(38:46):
But people can support you.
They can become an executive producer or an associate producer or an honorable mention on the show as well if they want to send some sats.
And I think that's awesome, too.
I might have to do a little Zapvertising of the podcast on there, maybe.
Love it.
Yeah.
No, Angor's great.
It's all on-chain, by the way, right?
So I think Geyser is great, too.

(39:07):
and that supports lighting and on-chain.
I think the difference is this is fully self-custodial.
So the funds are time-locked using Bitcoin script
and then every fundraiser is its own NOSTA,
gets its own NPUB.
So if you actually search for Finding Home Episode 3,
you'll find its own NPUB on NOSTA.

(39:29):
And some of this funding happens through reputation scores
or at least that's the plan anyway, right?
So if you invest and then you take advantage of the time lock and you rock pull as an investor, it's on Noxia that you've done that.
So your reputation is going to take a hit.
Similarly, yeah.
I mean, that's pretty interesting, honestly.

(39:53):
I love that these new models are emerging at a time when they're very much needed.
Again, necessity is the mother of invention.
It's just a bunch of people getting together and hacking stuff together and making it work because we have these incredible open source tools at our disposal, which now make it possible.
And the fact that there's a, you know, not a social credit, but just a social proof of work aspect to this, let's say.

(40:17):
I think that's really powerful.
And this is organic and emergent, right?
You can call it social.
I mean, social credit is, the phrase is lost.
It's toxic now.
But it's done. But it's a this is an organic and emergent property right in these networks, which is you are fully responsible for your reputation.

(40:41):
You mess it up. You've impacted your score to the extent that you can put a number on it.
But it's all on you. This is not some central party giving you a number saying that's your credit score.
So I'm all for it.
yeah i mean like that's the thing uh it comes back to trust right and you need trust to build

(41:03):
society like that's how society that's how community is built it's the that's the whole
point of it it is the point and it is the way like you need trust to build community and having trust
is the point of community so that you can live in a small village and not need to lock your doors
because you're not worried about your neighbor coming and robbing you because there would be

(41:23):
extreme consequences for doing that. The risk trade-off is just not there. You have trust in
people. And it's like we have these trustless tools. And I think sometimes people get it mixed
up where they think, well, we don't need trust at all anymore. But it's like, oh, you need trust
now more than ever. It's just that there are actually more pure ways to build that trust

(41:47):
that are now available to us because these tools are trustless. It's counterintuitive,
but we don't even know what kind of incredible things
are going to emerge from this yet.
We're seeing them now.
We're seeing these embers come to life.
But I just think it's going to get so much better
because, again, the incentive model is different

(42:07):
and incentives matter.
And we're seeing that right now in real time.
I don't know.
What a time to be alive.
Again, I'm grateful.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
And thank God for Bitcoin and Nostro.
i honestly i would be i would uh i would be extremely nihilistic i think at this point if
i knew what i know now but i didn't but just you take bitcoin and no strata the equation forget the

(42:34):
fact that bitcoin is the way that i found a lot of these uh things out because of you know going
down various rabbit holes but take that away hypothetical if i didn't have bitcoin and no stir
and I had all the knowledge that I do now about how fucked up the world is,
oh man, I would be in a very dark place.
So I'm glad that's not the case.

(42:54):
I'm in a very light place right now.
Oh yeah, and likewise.
And so actually that's another motivation behind finding home,
which is, we talked about the folks in upstate New York,
even the people who can see the problems, who can acknowledge what's wrong,
there is no hope for them, right?
They're living in this world of anger and despair because they're like, well, we're screwed.

(43:16):
Like, what can we do?
And there are other people like that on any side of the political spectrum, right?
I like to believe they're all good people.
Some of them might be misguided.
But a lot of them are in despair because they don't see the hope.
And with Finding Home, and because I'm not emphasizing Bitcoin all that much, it's really a food and travel show.

(43:38):
And yes, Bitcoin's in the background.
I want to show people that there are these people living incredible lives of hope, of creativity, of just building things because they love what they're doing.
And they're having these rich experiences.

(43:58):
And when people watch that and they're like, how are they doing that?
My life sucks.
And that's where the Bitcoin comes in and say, oh, wait a second, maybe there is hope.
Right. So that's if I'm successful doing that, that would that would.
Yeah. The show's a success if that can happen.
So you quit your fiat job, right?

(44:19):
You are now like you're you're you're you're off the rails and into Bitcoin and Nosterland full time.
Yeah. Yes, pretty much.
As of July 4th, I quit my fiat job.
Yes. Thank you.
On the 4th of July, too, independence from the fiat job and from those totalitarian British bastards.

(44:41):
I'm pretty sure they had quite a hand in your home country as well.
Just a little bit, right?
Yeah.
I can imagine.
I couldn't guess at all where your accent comes from, for example.
Who could know?
But no, I love this.
And I'm curious, too, do you want to keep this indie?

(45:03):
Do you want to keep it kind of grassroots funded?
Or let's say Netflix sees this tomorrow, comes to you and says, we want this show.
We're going to throw a ton of money at you.
Well, maybe there's two cases there.
There's the case where they say, don't change a thing.
Keep doing it.
We love it.
And there's the case where they say, yeah, we love it, but we want we need you to to adjust.

(45:26):
Just adjust this a little bit because this doesn't quite align.
Where are you at with that? Have you thought about that at all? Is it still too early stages? I have no idea how this stuff works with getting shows picked up.
I've thought about it. And I think that the truth is, Walker, I want as many people to see this, right? Because my goal is to get people into Bitcoin. And if I make money along the way, great.

(45:49):
so it's okay yes that's right yeah and if netflix or hulu or apple tv or whoever
comes and says yes we want this on a network now the best case scenario is they say
you have full editorial control we just love the show keep doing what you're doing here's whatever
100k whatever 500k per episode knock yourself out knock yourself out i take it much as i'd love to

(46:14):
keep this on a lightning enabled pay-per-view platform like IndieHub.
And by the way, shout out to Zach Mahoney.
He's built an amazing product there.
Super smooth.
Oh, it's great.
Yeah.
And he's been working on it for a while now as well, Zach.
So thank you, Zach, for everything you do.

(46:35):
But if one of those big studios were to come and offer me a large sum of money,
I would take it.
Firstly, because I don't have a fiat job anymore.
I'm kind of living off my savings right now.
And I'd like to not do that if possible.
And the second is I do want to get this in front of people.

(46:55):
So that would just get me the distribution right off the bat.
Now, if they asked me to bring in, for example, if Coinbase came and said,
here's a million bucks, go and make season one.
And they said, keep your editorial integrity.
I don't have to think about that because it's Coinbase.
But if they said you could just do what you're doing, I might do it.

(47:18):
If they say, oh, you've got to include crypto in there, I don't care if it's $10 million or $20 million or a billion dollars.
I wouldn't do it.
And same goes for any of these other major places like Netflix.
The money doesn't matter.
If it stops being Bitcoin only, if I have to compromise my ethics or values, there's no money in the world.
That will help me sleep at night.

(47:41):
Amen to that.
I mean, the lucky thing there is that there really aren't a lot.
Bitcoin is accepted in a lot of places, a lot of what you're concerned with, in this case, restaurants.
The places where crypto is accepted, they are far fewer because it turns out a lot of it, who knew?

(48:03):
Obviously, this is going to shock you, but a lot of it is just vaporware meant to enrich the founders.
No way.
I know.
It's crazy, man.
You wouldn't believe it.
But yeah, so I mean, at least, but I hear you and I respect that 100%.
It's like, if you get to keep your editorial decision-making capability, then great.

(48:24):
But if not, it's like it wouldn't be worth it.
You'll have to stick with the plebs.
But honestly, this show has a vibe where I'm like, man, this seems like, I've watched a lot of food shows because I like food.
Like Carl and I like watching food shows and you try to make stuff that you see.
Like, I remember when when Chef's Table first came out and I was like, oh, like this is Vivaldi slow motion.

(48:50):
Oh, my.
Yes.
Chef's Table is the reason I have Vivaldi in my in my in the intro to every show, you know, because I love because it's different, different, different part of Vivaldi's seasons.
But Vivaldi, nonetheless.
But it's like there's something about food and hearing people's stories and seeing it all happen at the same time that like – to what you're saying earlier, like it tugs at something in our primal brain.

(49:14):
And it just – it's amazing.
And it's also – it's its own form of artistry as well.
Like food is just really delicious, edible art.
And like you see that people's love and passion comes through their food.
Like, whether that be in your family or at a lovely restaurant or at some hole in the wall on the side of the highway where you have the best tacos you've ever had in your life, which is the story for me.

(49:41):
Literally, best tacos I've ever had in my life.
We're in a Midwestern gas station.
Well, there's a little taco shop attached to a gas station, family run.
And I'm like, where has this been hiding?
How does this exist here?
This is insane.
I digress again.
But food and stories, like, I don't know.
It's just like that's kind of just what life's about, right?

(50:03):
That's every night at the dinner table, right?
Oh, yeah.
And, you know, Chef's Table, another one of my favorite shows.
That is you need a very expensive setup for that.
Now, I wanted to make something like Chef's Table, but that like the camera set up and you have to shut the restaurant down to get all of that.

(50:24):
So maybe if the funding is there at a later point in this season or maybe season two, that is the aesthetic I'm going for for the food shots, right?
I do want that chef's table vibe.
Maybe if I can get someone to play Vivaldi for me so that I don't have to pay royalty to whichever musician.
You actually – there are a lot of open source – or not open source but royalty-free cuts of Vivaldi out there because the music itself is like – it's old, right?

(50:51):
It's past.
Like you can't – there's no copyright on the music itself.
On specific performances there may be, but there are tons out there that are complete royalty-free licenses.
So just got to find a good one.
I'll send you a couple after.
Throw some Vivaldi in there.
We all need more Vivaldi in our life.
Yes, absolutely.
Especially the winter suite.

(51:12):
I love me a little summer as well.
Don't get me wrong.
I love the whole thing, let's be honest.
Yeah.
Yeah, but there's something, just going back to that, watching people eat food, it's almost like you're eating it, especially if it's well shot, right?
And the food looks good and plated nicely.

(51:33):
And then hearing their stories.
And, you know, any expat or immigrant story is almost always going to be interesting because it's a story of travel.
It's a story of trying to find something that they couldn't find.
or it's a story of finding something
but trying to recreate a piece of that childhood there
because there's always something fascinating.

(51:57):
And so you pair those two together
and you have some nice music.
You have a nice sort of background vocals
saying something philosophical.
It's almost always guaranteed to be a hit.
Especially you have a perfect voice
for saying philosophically minded things.
It's really an unfair advantage you're playing.

(52:18):
Well, thank you. But yes, so I've heard. Of course, Walker coming from a man who's claimed to have the best voice in Bitcoin. That is high praise.
Many people are saying it. I can neither confirm nor deny. A lot of good voices in Bitcoin. But on the American side, I mean, it may be true. But, you know, folks with non-American accents, you have an unfair advantage, I think, at least for us, our American ears.

(52:45):
we, you know, I think we still have a little bit of generational trauma of being subjugated by the
British. And so I think that's what plays out. We view the British or pseudo-British posh side
accent, not like a good old Cockney accent, but we view the posh accents as like, well, they must be
smart. And, you know, you got to train yourself out of that, I think. Let me ask you this, Walker,

(53:07):
do you, when you listen to your voice played back, do you like it? Or are you like, oh my God,
who the hell is this pipsqueak uh tough question i i used to not like it when i hadn't like i wasn't
really recording my voice very often if i occasionally heard my voice recorded for
whatever reason i'd be like the fuck that's what i sound like uh it was super strange now because

(53:32):
it's like it's almost like exposure therapy like you're when you're editing your own show
you're forced to listen to yourself more than you might want to and so I've kind of just like
gotten over that I almost it's almost a little like maybe a little out of body too like when I
was doing Lawrence Lepard's book that was little that wasn't even a podcast episode that was like

(53:55):
I need to edit this audiobook that 13 hours long in terms of finished read and that was like I just had to take myself out of it i also had to raise my voice a little bit and uh basically i should have
honestly filmed myself uh doing the read because i'm literally i'm trying to i'm trying to brighten
my voice and speak up here a little bit more and the only way to do that is to raise your eyebrows

(54:17):
and to smile because one of the biggest things i get like on youtube is people being like yeah
great great uh great podcast but why are you doing this fake batman voice and i'm like well
i don't know i guess it's just my voice bro like i don't know what to tell you so i was like okay
gotta brighten the voice up don't want this to be a detractor from larry's incredible book
uh so yeah that was uh that one was easier to disassociate i think because i was already

(54:41):
doing a slight affectation to raise the pitch of my voice just a little bit yeah yeah yeah
What about you? Do you like your voice?
I like your voice.
I used to hate it.
I was like, what the hell is this guy?
But then you kind of get used to it.
Yeah, like you said, when you're re-listening to yourself,
especially when I do the written scripts,

(55:03):
I write the script and I read it,
I can be slow and deliberate and you don't have the pauses
and the ums and ahs, right?
Because you're doing it off a script
and then you listen to it and you cut pieces.
Yeah, I think I finally got to a point where
not just tolerated.
I listened to a few things and I'm like, oh yeah, that wasn't
too bad.
Reasonably well done.

(55:24):
I think it's just part of it. It's just like
getting over your own ego.
With so many things in
life too.
Can you kind of have
that ego
death, which is great.
Greatest name for a venture firm ever.
Shout out to Jeff
Booth and Lynn Alden and all of them.
If you have that ego death,
you just don't care.

(55:47):
It's just like, yeah, what's the big deal?
Like if other people like it,
why are you being so hard on yourself?
It doesn't mean you can't improve what you're doing,
but like don't have some weird aversion to it
just because it's you.
Like get over yourself.
You're not that important.
Like you're a little speck of stardust
on a ball orbiting around a giant nuclear reactor.

(56:09):
Like it's all good, man.
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.
I think it's just, yeah, you're right.
It is ego death.
It's like not caring whether you're cringe or whatever it is.
It's just that.
And honestly, for most people, that just comes with doing things over and over again.
The first time you do it, you're self-conscious.
Same thing with public speaking as well, right?

(56:29):
You just get over it after a point.
I think it's such an important thing for people to realize that like nobody thinks about you as much as you do.
No one.
It's just not possible.
You think about yourself more than anyone else.

(56:51):
Most people, the people you're passing in the street, they do not care.
There's the great word sonder from the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows,
which is the essential idea that every person you pass in the street
is living a life just as colorful and vivid as your own.
They're the main character in their own movie.
You're just an extra passing in the street.

(57:11):
They don't care.
They don't even notice you just like you don't even notice them unless you have that wave of sonder where you start to pay attention to these things.
But I think it's so easy for people to get trapped in their own heads and think that everybody cares about what they're doing and how they sound, how they look.
They think that they care about it more than they actually do.

(57:31):
People just do not care that much.
And that's okay.
So just you can be free.
You don't have to be scared.
people are way too wrapped up in their own lives um to think about yeah that's i know on the topic
of sonda you know when i first moved to new york i used to love going to central park uh and i used
to sit on the you know this is a 20 year old or 21 year old back then but one of my favorite

(57:55):
activities was in you know late evening as the summer twilight is setting in just sit on the
park benches on central park west and look at the buildings right across the street
and you'd have these, you know, they're not like very large or very high buildings.
They're seven, eight-story building.
Beautiful, beautiful architecture.

(58:17):
And then you'd see all of these windows and the lights would just come on
and there'd be people like one window here, one person would be doing something,
another person would be doing, right below them, someone else doing something else.
Completely different things.
I'd be sitting there saying all of these people doing all these things,
none of them has a clue what the person below them, above them is doing.
They're all leading their lives without any idea about the other person's existence.

(58:42):
And meanwhile, here I am.
I have a full view of all of their existence.
It's an interesting thing to ponder, Sonder.
Oh, yeah, exactly.
It's been a while since I've gone on the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows.
Are they still updating that site?
I think so.
I hope so.

(59:02):
Maybe?
I haven't checked recently.
No, I'm going to have to check after this.
Okay.
So, I mean, I've got to say, I always love chatting with you because I never know what direction it's going to go in.
And I'm curious, too.
Okay.
Have we, is there anything that's related to the show that you want to make sure that we cover that we haven't yet?
As far as, like, before we get, you know, we've still got some time before we get too deep into the weeds on other things.

(59:27):
Like, I want to make sure that you get that chance.
The one thing I'm still curious about in the show is how are you going to go about picking your next subjects for the show?
Do you have a plan for that? Are they already lined up?
And if maybe there are like some chefs out there that accept Bitcoin at their restaurant, should they get in touch with you?
Like, can you tell me anything about that?
Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to talk to more folks.

(59:48):
I mean, right now, the idea is to tell the dual story, the parallel story of finding home in a new land.
And then, you know, how Bitcoin, the finding home and the sovereignty that comes with Bitcoin.
So I'm looking for folks who are either expats or immigrants, Bitcoiners, right?
Restauranteurs would be amazing because then you get full access to the kitchen.

(01:00:12):
But even if it's not restauranteurs, right?
The Prague episode was with Grafton, who's from Vexil.
So he's a cypherpunk guy, but we had a lot of food at a lot of amazing restaurants there.
and and and paraguay is going to be something similar as well it's a czech expat who lives there
um who's moved there so it's going to tell his story and then i have so those are the ones that

(01:00:37):
i've been able to the first two self-funded the third one i've i have an executive producer and
i've raised some on angor the ones after that i think hey anyone listening if you'd love like to
be an executive producer, you know, reach out to me. I'll be setting up Angor funding for those two.
But I have a few, there are some amazing characters in Bitcoin. And I don't want to go to the famous

(01:01:04):
people, right? That's the one thing I'm trying to avoid, right? The well-known Bitcoiners,
I think their stories are pretty much out there. They're on the podcast. They're completely out
there. There are some remarkable
Bitcoin stories. And I have three
or four candidates for the
next episodes beyond Paraguay
that
I have lined up. I've talked to them.

(01:01:26):
They want to do it. It's just a
question of working out the funding
for it.
Daniel just asked in
the chat on Zap.Stream,
can we get Ali from Tahini's
on your show? Is
Tahini's an option? I don't know if you know
them. They're awesome.
people. I still haven't eaten there, but I'm

(01:01:46):
foaming and watering
at the mouth to do so.
Fantastic idea. I would
love to do that.
Now we can make it
happen. We'll make it in Toronto
and that's a short, I can actually
about Toronto or somewhere in Canada,
right? I'm assuming on the Montreal,
Toronto, wherever.
The great thing about Canada

(01:02:08):
is that 90% of their population lives within
100 miles of the US border.
so like you know you don't have to go too far unless you've got to go you know all the way over
to like vancouver then that's uh that's that's far for you but yeah no i think i think that would
that'd be awesome i mean the the great thing is that you do have a lot of uh a lot of options like
you know another one that comes to mind if we're talking incredible food boy you almost need to go

(01:02:30):
to a beefsteak uh because a way slice does uh he's a man who knows his food he knows he knows his
meets uh let's say and just a uh an awesome dude as well so but but yeah i mean you that's you you've
got a lot to choose from like and yes like this is still a very small community but it's like

(01:02:51):
you have options that's that's pretty cool i i have three seasons at least of 12 episodes each
because there are so many remarkable stories uh to tell here over food and on the topic of
waistline so i i know of him we follow each other on nostor i've never met him and i've heard all
about the beef steaks and everything else so yeah i think we make a really good episode oh man okay

(01:03:16):
i'm uh i would be happy to connect you guys because he's awesome uh truly just a savant when
it comes to preparing meats and like and it could be cool for you to do uh like a beef steak
to cover that as an episode
because it's such a vibe at these things.

(01:03:37):
It's a bunch of people
eating a lot of meat
with their hands.
Usually some libations involved.
A great atmosphere.
He's very conscientious
about the vibe curation,
about the music,
about the venue,
about everything.
And so it's a whole sensory experience
and it's quite lovely.

(01:03:58):
Yeah, I'd love to do that.
Maybe the next beefsteak.
We're going to make it happen.
Okay.
I'm putting a pin in that over here to help make that connection.
But so, I mean, let's assume you have continued to have funding for this.
Obviously, you can't bootstrap this yourself forever.

(01:04:19):
Hopefully, people, I encourage people to go on IndieHub.
Again, I'll drop the link in the show notes for anyone watching live.
Just go to Avi's Noster.
grab that and spend some sats to watch this to to support this filmmaking endeavor but you know
i mean what's the how far do you want to take this what's what's the ultimate goal is it is it to

(01:04:40):
is the ultimate goal to orange pill is the ultimate goal to just to just create a you know a beautiful
piece of uh culinary cinema how do how do you see this in terms of like what's really driving you
I think it's both. It's to create a beautiful work of art, right, that is culinary cinema, and also highlight stories of these remarkable people, right? And then the second part is, yes, to Orange Pill, right? I mean, and let's be honest here, right? We are all in on Bitcoin and Nordstrom Freedom Tech.

(01:05:15):
But this revolution is only going to be successful if there's mass adoption.
Otherwise, it's us having – we've had a really good time at conferences and all of these dinners and whatnot.
But I think thinking five, ten years ahead – and here's another thing, Walker.
And you, I'm sure, are acutely feeling this having become a father last year.

(01:05:37):
I've been a father for slightly longer than that.
But once you have a kid, it's no longer about yourself.
It's like, what kind of a world do I want my son to live in?
And I don't want him to live in this fiat-cocked world that I had to grow up in.
And I have the tools.
I have the ability.
So it's on me as a father to at least try to create that reality for him.

(01:06:02):
I could not agree more.
And it's one of my largest realizations becoming a father was, first of all, it's a light switch
that once it's turned on, it's not going off.
Like you are forever changed for the better.
And that's wonderful.
But like you cannot, I mean, unless you're like a psychopath,
like a literal clinical psychopath,
like you're not turning that off.

(01:06:23):
You know what I mean?
And the other was just that I had no idea
what true low time preference meant.
Like I actually had no, I thought I did,
but I only had the, I had the academic conceptualization of it.
I didn't have, and as much as I could feel,
yes, I'm trying to think long-term.
relatively speaking to where I am now, no, I wasn't even close. It's, it's, uh, hilarious,

(01:06:48):
honestly, to think of the fact that I even believe that I had a low time preference. It's like, no,
no, no, that is a switch that flips hard and you realize, oh no, like what does, like, this is what
generational thinking means. It means this beautiful child in front of me that, that did not
exist before that now myself and my wife have a responsibility toward. It's like, and I,

(01:07:13):
uh, American hodl, hodl, uh, pardon me as, as he identifies, he told me something. One of the last
times he was on the show, which is like every, uh, like a boy doesn't become a man until he
becomes a father. And I think that's actually really spot on and true as, as, as mature as

(01:07:33):
you think you are, as enlightened as you think you are, as much of a man as you think you are,
it changes. And there's a different side of you that gets flipped on when you actually become a
father. And as usual, you know, American hodl hodl being either intentionally or unintentionally

(01:07:53):
quite profound, as he is also being flippant. He has quite a gift for that.
oh yeah i and you can say tell people this who are not parents yet that you don't understand
when you have a kid that's when you truly grow up you're you're a kid until you have a kid right
to rephrase uh what huddle said but uh those are just words you need to experience it let me ask

(01:08:21):
you this when when your son was born were you you are presumably you were in the delivery room and
And you saw the baby come out and the baby made eye contact with you for the first time.
How was that?
How was that feeling?
I remember the first time this little hand grabbed Carla's thumb and then grabbed my thumb as we're sitting there.

(01:08:43):
And it was just like, my heart is like so full, but at the same time I have all the, like these incredible, like protector instincts are kicking in at a level.
Like I've never felt before, like that I have with my wife, but there's like so different, cause look at this tiny little baby and how defenseless it is.
And like, it needs us.

(01:09:05):
And like it, I feel like it kicks you into like a different gear as a, as a man.
I'm not a woman, so I can't speak to women.
They're the ones who do the, you know, we men don't do too much work in the creation process.
We've got a short cameo at the beginning.
Yeah.
And then, you know, once the baby's born.

(01:09:28):
But like, man, it was, I mean, at the risk of something cliche, it was truly life changing.
And I'm sure it was the same for you.
You see that and there's no going back.
You are changed forever.
Oh, yeah.
Switch on, flip the switch on, rip it out of the wall, throw it away.
It's gone.
It's just the light's on forever now.

(01:09:49):
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
And I think it's even more powerful for people who are Bitcoiners who become, and I guess
as in your case, Walker, right?
Now, I became a father.
Interestingly enough, my son does have a block height, but it was just shortly.
It's a five-digit block height, but he does have one.
Wow.
Wow.
But I knew nothing about Bitcoin back then.

(01:10:11):
but I think for
Bitcoiners who think
they understand, as you said, low time
preference and all the philosophy
that we spout all the time
having a kid just makes you realize
what it all means, it really
falls into place
and so just going back to the earlier point
right
without maximal adoption

(01:10:34):
of Bitcoin
the revolution
has failed
and our children will not be living in the world that we want to give them.
So this is my way of telling stories, of appealing to people's emotions,
because I think that is what scales adoption more than appealing to people's intellect.
You can lecture them on Austrian economics and distributed networks and what have you.

(01:10:57):
And, you know, you'll get a few people, right?
The more cerebral kinds, you might get them, convince them through the subtle art of argument.
But appealing to their emotion, appealing to their soul, I think you get a lot more.
Appealing to their stomach.
Their stomach too, yeah.
Yeah, it makes a difference.
And I agree.
And I think this is something Carl and I have actually just talked about for a while.

(01:11:21):
Because, you know, there's that tendency when you first get into Bitcoin and you start going down the rabbit hole.
And you're like, oh my God.
Like, I need to tell all of my friends and family about this right now.
And I need to make sure they get it because like, holy shit, I can't believe I didn't know this before.
My eyes are open.
A different sort of switch is flipped, you know, and you can't shut your eyes after that.

(01:11:45):
And then after a lot of orange pilling attempts, many of which are probably failures, you start to get a little frustrated.
You get a little bit, you know, a little bit disillusioned.
And you realize like, OK, you know, I'm trying all these different ways of getting to people and you get to some.
And hopefully you get to the people you care about most because you lead with love and they realize, look, this person loves me.

(01:12:08):
I love them.
They wouldn't try to lead me astray.
So if they're saying this, you know, it must be true.
But for a lot of people, it's like especially, you know, friends or, you know, extended family, whatever it may be, it's harder.
And then at least Carl and I got to a point where it's like, well, maybe the best way that we can orange pill is just by living a life that we love.

(01:12:31):
and that other people would want to have as well.
And that's the best thing that we can do
is just truly leading by example, as they would say.
And I feel like that's kind of what you're doing with this show
is it's leading by example.
It's showing, look, yeah, we're going to mention Bitcoin.
We're going to talk about Bitcoin.
It's a part of this.

(01:12:52):
It's not the central thesis, but it's also what made this possible.
It's part of this story.
And if you like where this story is going,
And maybe it's worth checking out for yourself, too.
Right.
Absolutely.
It's about being the lighthouse, not the tugboat.
And I think this is a journey a lot of early Bitcoiners go through, which is they get so excited because they've gone down the rabbit hole and they want to help everyone.

(01:13:15):
And they try to be that tugboat.
And at some point you realize, you know what, let me just live my life.
Let me just be the change.
And it's sometimes when people, I've been in situations where I've seen at conferences and otherwise, I've seen Bitcoiners argue with, they corner some poor nami at a bar.

(01:13:37):
And they're yelling at them saying, hey, man, you got to get into Bitcoin.
And so there was, in fact, one specific event.
This was in Warsaw at the Film Fest last year.
And this Bitcoiner called me because he'd corner this poor guy.
and just called you as he had cornered this person?
Like he was on the phone with you mid-corner?

(01:13:57):
No, no, no, I was there.
We were in Warsaw.
So he just called me over.
He said, come on in.
Okay.
Talk to this guy.
He's not getting it, man.
And I looked at the poor guy.
He looked completely flustered.
And I said, hey, are you happy with where your life is,
with your investments?
And he said, yeah, I think I'm happy.
And I said, then you don't need Bitcoin.

(01:14:18):
You don't.
You're happy.
You don't need Bitcoin.
And then he was like, wait, I don't?
I said, well, if you're the kind of person who feels that there's something off, maybe, and you want to see why something's off with the world, then maybe you should study Bitcoin.
But if you say you're happy, then, yeah, you don't need it.
And the guy was like, wait a second.

(01:14:39):
Now tell me more.
And I think so part of it, we get into this as early Bitcoin, as into this thing of I have to let people know I am the savior.
I'm going to save my friends.
And don't be the savior.
Or at least that's not how you're going to be the savior.
I mean, it turns out a lot of the cliches in Bitcoin are cliches for a reason.

(01:15:01):
They're true.
It's like everyone gets it at the price we deserve, right?
Like, I don't know about you, but for me, I ignored Bitcoin multiple times.
I ignored it in 2014 when somebody brought it up to me.
And I was like, I don't care about that, man.
Like back to whatever fiat shit I'm doing.
Ignored it in 2017 when it started running.

(01:15:22):
And I was like, well, I can't afford a full Bitcoin.
So I guess I'll, I don't know.
I guess I'll just buy a couple of these Litecoin things.
Big mistake.
Still don't think Litecoin has come back to the 2017 peak.
I could be wrong.
I don't really look at it anymore.
But I got rid of those.
Did it go back?
No, it did not.
Oh, it did not?
It went, and I remember this with Litecoin, it crossed 300 back in 2070.

(01:15:46):
And I was shitcoining back then as well.
That was like right when I, I mean, as toppy of the top as you could have gotten.
That's when I was like, I'll just buy two Litecoins because that's what I can afford right now.
The funny thing happened at the absolute tippy top of Litecoin.
The founder, Charlie Lee, he sold everything.
He knew somehow.
Well, probably because he created the tippy top by selling a massive, like just dumping liquidity in the market.

(01:16:13):
But yeah, so like, so I have empathy for people because then it wasn't until like COVID started up that I actually started looking into this again and actually taking the time and putting my ego aside and realizing, you know what?
You actually have no idea how money works and how any of this works.
And why don't you like, you've got the time now.
It's weird lockdown shit.
But like, look into this more.

(01:16:35):
But it takes multiple touch points for people.
And I think finding ways when it comes to artistic creation, content creation, whatever you want to call it, you know, podcasting as well, all these things, they can all represent touch points for people.
And it's going to take a couple touch points.
It is very rare that somebody hears about Bitcoin for the first time.

(01:16:57):
Okay, got it.
I'm a full-on Bitcoin max.
Like, it just doesn't really happen.
these not these days anymore, you know, maybe back in the day when it was just Bitcoin, but like,
people go down different roads, right? And so I think creating these different avenues by which
people can be exposed to Bitcoin in a way that's not just Elizabeth Warren screeching or the New

(01:17:18):
York Times writing a dog shit article. I think that's so important, because you never know which
positive touch point is going to be the one that sends somebody on that journey down the rabbit
hole. There's no way to know it's gonna be different for every person. But creating more
opportunities for people to do that and again i think through food and through storytelling is
such a powerful way to do it because it's just you know it's natural and it's not a it's a it's

(01:17:40):
a foot in the door versus a door in the face like it's it's a soft sell yeah yeah or a foot in the
face yeah yeah there we go uh which you know some people might be into uh you know if derek
is listening to this um but hashtag footster footster oh man you know i now we're really at
the point where I can probably just like,

(01:18:01):
I can probably just like vibe code a standalone footster app.
Huh?
Maybe I,
maybe I should,
I should really do that for Derek,
of course,
just so he has.
Yeah.
Yes.
Naturally.
But let's talk about,
well,
first of all,
before I,
I digressed anything else,
is there anything else with the film you want to make sure that we,
we cover or we get into?
I really want to make sure that like,
I want to encourage people again,

(01:18:22):
go check it out.
If you haven't 33 minutes or 33 and a half minutes of your time,
I believe very well worth it.
You'll enjoy it.
maybe eat some food and have a drink while you're watching it or just hang out.
But take a break from your normally scheduled 40 hours per week of Bitcoin podcasts and
incorporate this into the mix.
What else do you want people to know about this before we digress?

(01:18:44):
Because I want to talk to you about Nostra a little bit more too.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I think we covered a lot about the show, right?
As I said, I guess a call to action is if anyone watches it and likes it and wants to
help me make more episodes, please reach out.
Happy to have you as an executive producer if you can help out that way.
Or help me with the Paraguay episode.

(01:19:05):
That's more of an immediate need.
The link, and Walker, if you include the link for the Angor in the show notes, yeah, you can follow that.
But yeah, I think we beat it to death, Walker, the show.
Excellent.
It's now ready to be filleted and cooked for us now that it is dead.

(01:19:26):
There you go.
Okay, so let's talk about Noster a little bit more.
You've been very active on Noster since the early days.
You have Pleb Chain Radio with QW.
I think the longest-running Noster podcast,
obviously you guys talk about other stuff too,
but I'd call it a Noster podcast.

(01:19:46):
You guys have been promoting it via Fountain
and via Noster since the early days.
You've been deep in this way.
When did it click for you?
that this was something akin to Bitcoin,
that this protocol was something special,
that this is like,
this is where you want to focus your time.
Yeah, so Jack Dorsey posted about this

(01:20:08):
on December 14th of 2022.
I signed up on December 15th of 2022
and it clicked on December 16th,
I would say, of 2022.
It was, and I don't know why,
it was almost a magical moment
I mean, you were there too, Walker, right, at that time.

(01:20:30):
Only a couple days before, yeah.
Right.
All of these people showed up, and it felt like we were part of a magical moment in time.
And I was captured at that point.
It was a really incredible vibe at that time.

(01:20:50):
I remember Jack, right after he got on, he sent out a note.
I think I still have the screenshot of it somewhere from that I took on Damas in Damas is very early rougher around the edges version Like it it incredible the pace of development and how much more sleek and incredible these
apps are now.

(01:21:10):
But Jack basically posted that this is exactly what pre 5000 user Twitter felt like, but
better.
Right.
And I thought like, what a statement.
like what a statement for a guy that built arguably the most impactful social network
of all time to say about this open protocol what a what a wild wild thing to say right

(01:21:38):
and what's interesting to me too i don't i don't know i've seen seen some stuff recently about
adoption metrics and whatnot that a lot of it is kind of you know like plateaued and i'm i'm
personally not, I don't know about you. I'm not too worried about that. I'm like, to me, it's just,
it's like, yeah, okay. You know, you all get most are at the level of censorship and algorithmic

(01:22:02):
destruction that you deserve. Like, I don't know, but where, where do you think we're at? What do
you think brings in perhaps a better question? What do you think brings in the next waves of
people? Is it a pull because of the incredible stuff that's being built, which is inarguable?
Is it a pull because people want that?
Or is it a push because they're, you know, are they running towards Nostra or are they running away from these centralized systems?

(01:22:28):
I think we'll see a little bit of the running away.
You know, we saw that when Brazil banned X.
I can't even remember when this was, but six months, a year ago.
Every now and then you see TikTok ban.
Yeah, there was a TikTok ban and some people fled.
I don't think that's a particularly sticky wave of adopters because they're there because it's almost like a last resort for them.

(01:22:53):
And they don't fully get the culture, not all of them anyway.
Some of them do stay, but for the most part, the running away crowd, you don't always get the sticky adoption.
I think the one way you will get sticky adoption is people who, you know, it's like the meme of the cat that's looking over the wall and saying, what are they doing over there, right?
And it's like, wait a second, there's all of this incredible content.

(01:23:18):
Let me go and see what's happening.
So I think that's one way, more on the cultural side, right?
We're not quite there yet.
There's some of it.
By the way, Nostra is the most fun place on the internet.
Part of the magic of that moment in mid-December of 22 was, at least for me, I had stopped having fun on the internet.
Yes, maybe Twitter, you could dunk on people, but it was mean.

(01:23:41):
Nostra was like this innocent fun
especially for those first four or five months
so
I think that will be another allure
as people become more aware of it
which is Nostra is still
the most fun place on the internet
so on the
you know you'll get more content
because of that and you get

(01:24:02):
the flywheel going. People realize it's fun
they come in, they start making their content
they get zapped for it, their fans come in
and so on and so forth and then you'll have
these reputation scores and webs of trust as they get built out,
so you get more authentic content.
Again, the AI slop, right?
Maybe Nostra becomes the place where the humanness comes,

(01:24:23):
like we discussed earlier, through the cryptographic signatures
and through the authenticity.
So people come for that.
So that's on the one side.
The other side is a slightly more boring reason,
but Nostra can act as a data coordination layer.
for a lot of B2B type use cases as well, right?

(01:24:44):
Any industry in which it suffers from siloed data,
lack of interoperability, errors, human intervention,
yeah, exactly, reconciliation, human intervention,
NOSTA fixes all of that through just the way data interoperates.
It's extensible.
You can build new event kinds.

(01:25:05):
You can build clients that support those kinds.
It's permissionless.
You don't actually have to get your, if you propose a new NIP for a new event kind, you don't need to include that in the main repo.
Yes, it's nice, but you could just write a NIP, make a new kind, build a client that supports that and get people to use it.
It's amazing.
And with AI-assisted tools and Vibe coding, it's getting easier and easier.

(01:25:28):
So I think we'll see some of that, potentially some of that boring business adoption as well.
That just, people just come to Nostro without even knowing it, right?
Maybe it becomes the identity substrate of the internet.
People realize that the usernames and passwords are irrevocably broken.
So let's just move to keepers for that.

(01:25:51):
So I think there's the fun way, which is through the arts and culture and content.
And then there's the boring way.
And I think we will see that playing out over the next two, three years.
Have you been vibe coding yourself?
I have, yes.
What are you vibe coding?
So I worked in health tech for the longest time.

(01:26:13):
I used to run an, before I quit my fair job, I ran an AI team at a large health tech company, kind of pretty close to the health insurance world.
And I just saw from the inside how irrevocably broken that system is, irreparably broken, the incentive structures and whatnot.

(01:26:35):
not. And there is a bit, especially in the US, there is a better way, right? We can have direct
doctor to patient relationships, if you can get insurance out of the picture, right? Because that
just messes up the incentive structure, that brings in price transparency and all of that.
So I've been playing around with a few prototypes that connect patients to healthcare providers.

(01:26:59):
In fact, I actually launched a company or project, let's just call it, last year with
Vitor Pamplona and John Gordon.
It's called Nosfabrica, which is,
and we all have a healthcare background.
It's to see
how NOS to fix a lot of the healthcare
use cases, data interoperability
and so on. So yeah, I've been
Vibe coding some of that. I think

(01:27:20):
the risk there is because
we're talking health data. By the way,
this is a big risk with Vibe coding in general.
People are getting excited saying, hey,
everyone's a dev now, I just have to speak to AI.
If you're dealing with financial data,
If you're dealing with protected personal data, please do not send that into production.
Unless you know exactly what you're doing, do not do that.

(01:27:43):
That's highly irresponsible.
Yeah, maybe have an actual dev audit your code.
Yes.
Maybe do it a few times or, yeah, you're going to cause some problems.
Right.
I think it's super interesting, though, and it is to your point from the beginning of this conversation.
It's this opportunity for maybe non-technical people who have had an idea in their head but don't have the budget or don't have the time or both to be able to actually bring this to fruition, to be able to go from idea to product or idea to something actually tangible in the cyberspace fashion relatively quickly.

(01:28:26):
And I think we're going to just – again, we're at the early stages of this.
I think that's what's so exciting to me is that as incredible as these tools are right now, we're still early.
But we really are still early.
And I think to your point, you brought up earlier kind of this intersection of Bitcoin, AI, and Noster.

(01:28:46):
And I want to tease at that a little bit because something that I've heard a number of people talk about is this idea that one of the big problems when it comes to paying for compute is that if you're paying for compute with credit, credit that can be pulled away.
And I mean like literal monetary credit.

(01:29:07):
I'm not talking like you prepay for some tokens.
I'm talking you've got a credit card hooked up.
It's buying like that credit card can be canceled.
That money can be clawed back up to what, 60 days?
later, that doesn't make any sense in a system where you are paying for actual compute power.
You are paying for electricity. You are paying for the hosting. What you are paying for is real

(01:29:31):
and physical. The credit money that you are paying with, the fiat cock bucks you're paying with,
those are ephemeral. Those can be clawed right back at anyone's discretion.
So it was that kind of what you were getting at earlier was this idea that like, look,
this is going to be the obvious way that you should pay for compute,
that AI agents will also interact with each other,

(01:29:53):
because again, same problem,
and they're going to be quicker at figuring out the solution than we humans are.
I think that's fascinating where that's going to go
and just how that accelerates also Bitcoin adoption
in probably a way that most people don't see coming yet.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think as we move into a more and more agentic world,

(01:30:13):
There will be a human in the loop, I think, at some level for the next few years, but it's going to become lighter and lighter touch.
You'll have AI agents essentially talking to each other and transacting with each other.
And if they're allowed to do their thing, they will pick the best money.
They will not pick fiat.

(01:30:35):
They will pick Bitcoin, which is the best money.
And then tying this back to Jeff Booth's thesis, right?
But as technological progress happens, and we're in an incredible period of acceleration,
I think the likes of which we have not witnessed in recent history,
with how much productivity AI is going to bring.

(01:30:56):
I mean, just think about it.
One person in one week can do now what 10 people would take two months to do.
It's remarkable.
Prices have to come down, but they're not going to come down, right?
Because they're going to print just at least to keep that magical 2% number.
So the US dollar is going to become toilet paper because productivity is going to go up 10x, which means prices should at least proportionally come down and they're not going to come down.

(01:31:25):
And this is how Bitcoin wins.
This is it's going to be, you know, we start with Gresham's law.
Right. I mean, it's not really a law, but it's a heuristic, which is, you know, the people hoard the good money and they want to spend the bad money.
But at some point, the bad money is going to become so bad that Thier's law, again, not a law, it's a heuristic, will come in where in an unbridled scenario where the government isn't mandating legal tender, the good money is what's going to drive out the bad money.

(01:31:56):
And so I think Thierry's law will kick in and AI is going to be the catalyst that does that.
It's actually super interesting about like the government is, in my opinion, unknowingly subverting their own legal tender laws by not enforcing businesses requirement to accept cash for payments.

(01:32:18):
there are i'm sure we've everyone listening has been to at least one business either in the u.s or
abroad where cat that's like no no cash just just card uh like that because you know people don't
want to deal with cash usually it's a maybe a security issue there's the other side of that
where certain businesses are like typically like maybe smaller mom and pop shops are like no uh

(01:32:39):
actually only only cash or you get a cash discount because we're going to pay you know six percent
across the fee spread if you pay with credit.
And you might claw it back later
because you claimed your card was stolen or whatever else.
But it's super interesting to see that happen.
I don't know.
Cash may be trash from a store of value perspective,

(01:33:00):
but damn, it's good from an anonymous medium of exchange perspective.
It is still excellent.
And I think that we know that governments are going to try to get rid of it.
They're already starting.
I think Europe is going to accelerate in that regard.
Like they've already gotten rid of,
they got rid of the 500 euro bill, what,

(01:33:20):
like was that two years ago, three years ago,
something like that?
They're like, no, this is used for illicit finance too much.
So they get rid of that.
Only we're allowed to do illicit finance.
Yeah, only Christine Lagarde is allowed to be a convicted felon
and print money.
The rest of you, no, no, no, not allowed.
god what a what a what a joke this system is sometimes you have to like you have to take a

(01:33:44):
step back and just be like dear lord like our our world is literally just run by a bunch of criminals
even when they get in trouble don't actually get in trouble because they're the ones who make the
rules and they're the ones who print the money like by the way here too right i mean trump is
clearly front-running the strategic reserve.

(01:34:06):
His family is buying up Bitcoin.
I mean, good for us, right?
But still, we should call it out.
This is not ethical behavior.
His family is front-running it,
and then he's going to announce
a strategic reserve buy of a million Bitcoin,
and suddenly his family become trillionaires as a result.
I wonder how Trumpcoin will perform during that time.

(01:34:30):
Because it's not...
Melaniacoin, too.
Maybe there'll be a barren coin by that point who can say it's all so absurd.
That's the thing.
And I think it was only natural that politicians, that corporations would try it.
Well, politicians are kind of glomming on to this, right?
And as they should, it's in their best interest to do so.

(01:34:50):
This is what the game theory was always suggesting would happen.
Corporations are doing it out of self-preservation.
And also they're realizing, oh, wow, I can, I can, like my stock will get a lot more attention than it ever has if I announce a little Bitcoin treasury strategy, a little, if I participate in a little paper Bitcoin summer, you know, but, but wow, it's like there is no substitute for just good old fashioned Bitcoin held in cold storage because they, it's, you know, it's hard money they can't fuck with no matter what other shenanigans they try.

(01:35:23):
I, and you know, you mentioned paper, Becker, and so on. It's fun. It's a great meme. It's fun to have a laugh about it. But I fear there's a rug or some kind of crash coming, maybe not for the established ones. I think microstrategy is probably going to be okay.
But some of these copycats, the newer ones, I hope they know what they're doing.

(01:35:49):
Because, I mean, if a couple of the small ones go down, they could take the medium-sized ones back with them.
And before you know it, you have a bit of a snowball happening.
Contagion.
So I'm hoping that doesn't play out.
But, man, it's a bit scary to see.

(01:36:09):
Here's the other thing that bothers me a little bit here, Walker.
with paper Bitcoin and Bitcoin treasuries,
it's almost as if it's given some Bitcoin maxis,
and certainly some Bitcoiners,
the excuse to shitcoin, right?
To get their shitcoin desires out without repercussion.

(01:36:30):
Because, hey, it's just Bitcoin, man.
What are you talking about?
I'm not touching Ethereum or Solana.
This is all Bitcoin.
And I don't know, man.
It's a little concerning.
yeah i mean i i feel that i'm i'm uh it's going to be hilarious to see what happens to these uh
ethereum treasury companies that have come out like dear lord what a i mean hilarious to do that

(01:36:52):
to try to institutionalize more uh more custody of a proof of stake system like i don't think
like and i'm sure the ethereum foundation is giving some sweetheart deals here to folks like
uh tom lee from funstrat right who just came out with that like i'm sure there's some backroom
things happening because it's a centrally controlled company already like but it's i

(01:37:13):
don't think they really thought through the game theory of that too much like what what that means
in a proof of stake network but whatever it's gonna be fun to watch it light on fire and burn down
but on the bitcoin side i i definitely hear that and like you know this is why like i try to uh i
first of all let me preface this by saying i think people should do whatever the fuck they want with
their money uh personally though i would never ever recommend that if somebody is like a friend

(01:37:37):
or a family member, a loved one,
or a random pleb on the street
is asking or pleb at a Bitcoin conference.
I don't meet Bitcoin plebs in the street usually.
They're asking me like,
oh, which like,
no, I'm never going to recommend
a Bitcoin treasury company that they do that
because they should just hold,
they should buy and hold
good old fashioned layer one Bitcoin
in self-custody.

(01:37:58):
Because you like,
you know, you are introducing counterparty risk.
Like know that you are gambling
if you are pursuing,
And again, do whatever you want.
I have some micro strategy.
I have a few shares of some of these other ones.
But what do I save in?
I save in Bitcoin.
And that's what everyone who needs to should do it.

(01:38:21):
And everyone will need to eventually.
It's just a matter of time if they don't realize it yet.
But yeah, get real Bitcoin, hold it in cold storage, and go create value.
Right.
Because if you're in Bitcoin because you claim you're under standard,
than anything other than what you just said, Walker,
defeats the purpose.
You have this pristine digital bearer instrument

(01:38:43):
with zero counterparty risk.
And you're like, you know what would go well?
Some counterparty risk.
No.
A little spice, a little bit of spice on there.
Well, you know, and it's like, again,
I think that like these things were bound to happen.
Like governments realizing that Bitcoin is valuable.

(01:39:03):
Like this is a symptom of Bitcoin being successful.
If Bitcoin was going to, like Bitcoin is winning, this was going to happen.
If Bitcoin was losing and Bitcoin was fading into obsolescence, we wouldn't be having this conversation because companies and nation states wouldn't be trying to acquire it as fast as they can.
So this is like what winning looks like.

(01:39:24):
And that's great.
And I think that honestly, like paper Bitcoin summer is good for Bitcoin.
to ultimately this is like,
this is all accretive to Bitcoin.
This is bringing more value into Bitcoin
that honestly, frankly,
probably would have flown into,
uh, flowed into shit coins.
It's also bringing in new capital
that has previously not been able
to have a way to get exposure to Bitcoin

(01:39:44):
for whatever reason that may be,
whatever institutional capital it is,
whether that be in, uh, you know,
whether that be in retirement accounts,
sovereign wealth funds,
whatever it may be, fixed income.
Like there are all these different pools of capital
that are looking for ways to get, uh, exposure.
And people in a realm, we don't really live in a free market, but in a kind of free market are providing that to them through, you know, paper Bitcoin, which is like, hey, ultimately, it's good for Bitcoin.

(01:40:13):
But also a lot of people are going to get wrecked along the way.
And that's why, like, if you're just a pleb who is what you should follow Adele's advice, you should stay humble and stack sats.
It is some of the most sage advice you could ever have.
And it will forever hold true.
Like, that is the best way to do it.
Chasing get rich quick, well, chasing anything that's not just Bitcoin has a lot more potential for you to get hurt.

(01:40:40):
So do what you want with your money.
I don't care.
Neither does Bitcoin, but stay humble and stack sats.
And thank you, Odell, for creating such a great little heuristic.
Yes, for sure.
And I would add, spend it on things you need at merchants that accept Bitcoin.
I think that's – I know it's not as pithy as Stay Humble's tax ads, but I think spending Bitcoin, the medium of exchange use case is – I think that's what is the killer app for Bitcoin.

(01:41:10):
That's what makes it money.
Yes, store of value is great.
Supporting local merchants, trying to get them to accept Bitcoin, right?
Because part of it is you get into this chicken and egg, if you're talking about Bitcoin adoption, is you ask a merchant why aren't you accepting Bitcoin?
And they say, well, no one's paying in Bitcoin.
And you ask a person why they're not spending their Bitcoin, and he goes, no one accepts Bitcoin.

(01:41:34):
And I think the way out of that is to orange pill merchants and get them to accept Bitcoin.
So, yeah.
That was one of the parts I loved about the episode was that he was saying, I think it was like 3% of sales are in Bitcoin.
And that Bitcoin he just takes and keeps as an asset.
He doesn't convert that to fiat.

(01:41:55):
He just keeps it.
He literally said, this is how I'm saving for my business.
I was like, that is amazing.
I was like, my favorite part was just hearing him talk about it.
Seeing all the great food was nice and all.
But as a Bitcoiner, of course, hearing that part was like, wow, he gets it and he's really using it in an intelligent way.
And that, yeah, it's going to be a nice nest egg for his business as we go forward in the future.

(01:42:20):
Yeah.
I mean, if there's another shot, look, potentially New York City is going to have a communist mayor.
Hopefully not.
But there is a chance.
And if he starts bringing in price controls and so on, I mean, a lot of businesses will be out.
and maybe Shaqib, the proprietor of Safari in the episode,
with his little nest egg,

(01:42:41):
maybe he's one of the few who might survive.
Let's hope so.
And yeah, we'll see about New York's communist future,
but man, what a time to be alive.
The only good thing about that is that afterwards,
after there's an insane amount of capital flight
and destruction of the city's economics,
maybe we'll snap back real hard in the other direction.

(01:43:03):
The pendulum always swings back.
It just depends how much pain you have to get on one side of that swing before you're willing to swing it on back.
And New York City has always gone through these cycles.
And my hope had been that COVID was the bottom of the cycle, like 2020, 2021.
The crime was through the roof and, you know, businesses were shutting.

(01:43:26):
It's terrible.
And I thought maybe that's it.
Maybe this is the bounce back.
Like this is, you know, the city goes so far down south that people just leave.
So prices drop.
And then what happens then?
The starving artists can actually move back in because it becomes affordable.

(01:43:46):
They come in, start making really cool art.
Then the yuppies look at the art and like, hey, look at this.
There's culture in this place.
They come in and then they ruin it.
There's a hard times create weak man meme in there somewhere.
That cycle there.
But apparently, I hope I'm wrong, maybe 2020, 2021 was not the bottom for New York.

(01:44:08):
We might get this communist with price controls and convert it into a true hellscape before it bounces back.
God, I mean, let's hope not.
It's like, you know, real communism has never been tried.
We'll get it right this time, guys.
And I promise it won't end in starvation and mass murder.
This time it won't.

(01:44:29):
We'll get it totally right.
Don't you worry.
It's like, man, fuck off.
Real capitalism's never been tried, you totalitarian twat.
But I digress.
Avi, I want to be conscious of your time here.
The time has flown by with you, as always.
This was a great rip.
Where do you want to send folks again?
I'll link everything in the show notes.

(01:44:49):
I'll link.
But yeah, tell people again for those listening.
Yeah.
So if you want to connect with me on Nostra, primal.net slash avi.
My website is casanostra.ink, C-A-S-A-N-O-S-T-R-A dot I-N-K.
You'll find all my projects listed there, my book, the sequel that I'm working on, the show, all my podcasts.

(01:45:16):
I actually have more than one, by the way, Walker.
I started an AI podcast as well, two AI podcasts, but we could talk about that some other time.
But you'll find all of that.
I'm going to have to have you back on now.
But you'll find all of that information on Casa Nostra.
And yeah, you can find me on Primal as well.

(01:45:37):
Awesome.
Well, Avi, it's a pleasure having you on here.
I wish you all the best with the show.
I think it's fantastic what you're doing.
And I'm already looking forward to the next episode.
The one today, I shouldn't have watched it on an empty stomach because it made me hungry.
Well, thank you.
Thank you for the kind words, Walker.
Always a pleasure.
chatting with you.
Maybe our paths will cross

(01:45:57):
at the next conference.
I know we've been missing each other
at very, well, you've been busy
for very important reasons
as a new father.
But maybe once you're out of that,
I'm going to start,
now that I've quit my fiat job,
I can start traveling again.
So maybe at the next one.
I'm going to, I think Paraguay

(01:46:18):
is around that time.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, we'll talk.
We need to find a way to, uh, we can maybe do this in person.
That'd be a, that'd be a blast.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
That'd be good.
Yeah.
And thank you to everybody on the live stream as well, uh, who, who joined here on, on Noster.
And if you're listening to this after the fact and you're wondering what live stream,

(01:46:39):
it's probably because you're not on Noster yet.
So you should go and check it out.
And, uh, then you too can experience this show live and in color on zap.stream.
Yeah.
All right.
Thanks, man.
Great talking to you.
Cheers.
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.

(01:47:07):
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening,
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast.

(01:47:31):
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links.
Head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you.
And head to Bitcoin Podcast dot net for everything else.
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast.

(01:47:52):
Until next time, stay free.

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