ORANGE PILLING WASHINGTON DC | Mads & Mills of Bitcoin Policy Institute - THE Bitcoin Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I low-key think of myself as trying to help heal the public image of Bitcoin because a lot of people,

(00:08):
however they first heard about it, I mean, this is just human psychology, but like your first
impression tends to be hard to supplant. And so if they thought it was drug money for Silk Road,
or if they thought that it's money laundering, or if they thought that it's like an incel in the
basement playing video games. That's probably how they still think about it. And it actually takes

(00:31):
a significant rewrite and, you know, neural pathway reconstruction to say, actually, it's
freedom money. Actually, there are a lot of really cool implications. It's like we're daywalkers
pretending that we're normal. We're still not normal, but we at least are normal passing.

(00:55):
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.
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(01:17):
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Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.

(01:37):
I don't have like my, the Jamie to my Joe Rogan.
Not that I'm comparing myself to Joe Rogan.
But like, I don't have the Danny to my Peter McCormick.
You know, I don't have a...
Yet.
You know, I've been honestly thinking, I'm like, fuck, it's like about that point.
Like I kind of like need to hire somebody, but I'm also like, ah, that's, that's like

(02:00):
a lot of sats.
And I also, I wouldn't say I'm a control freak in any way, but like I have like my workflow.
I've got, I've got everything like figured out.
I do it like pretty damn efficiently for like a single person workflow.
And I'm like, is somebody else going to mess up that workflow?
I don't know.
But it's getting to that point where I'm like, I, I just don't have the time to do everything.
So we'll see.

(02:20):
Maybe I'll get my Jamie slash Danny someday soon.
If you're looking for some words of wisdom, this is what I would love to give you as a present, as a gift, host gift.
Someone once told me, you're probably more competent than the people that you would hire to do something.
But if you are the only one that is doing anything, you are fundamentally limiting your growth potential and capacity.

(02:47):
So as long as you want to continue expanding and growing, it is crucial.
Trust is a scaling solution.
And you have to ultimately delegate and trust and equip and empower people to come alongside.
That's really solid advice.

(03:08):
And I agree.
And like, that's the thing, like I've, I've like, I've, I've known this, you know, where, where it's like, okay, if you want to actually grow this in a meaningful way, like you just, you don't have the time to do it yourself.
Like you need people to do the other stuff so that you can spend more time actually focusing on growing it.
But then again, I'm like, wow, you know, I'll just, I'll do that next month.
Like, ah, there's too much going on now.

(03:28):
I don't know.
Maybe I'll do some headhunting at, uh, in, in Las Vegas and see if I can find somebody.
We'll see.
They need to be super based though.
But I don't know. Can we find a based Bitcoiner? I don't know.
It's tough out there.
Honestly, I was commiserating with a friend at Thames in Austin last week, the Texas Energy and Mining Summit,

(03:50):
how there are so few jobs in the Bitcoin space for non-technical, non-dev roles.
It's so rare to be, and that's part of, I guess, segue.
way, I'm so happy and thrilled to be at BPI because of the very few jobs that do exist

(04:10):
that aren't on technical, typically they're associated or connected to a product or a
service or, you know, they're, they're just, they're building versus, um, I mean, we're
building, but we're building relationships at BPI and connections.
Well, and I've let's, let's just like, let's take that thread and just run with it.

(04:32):
can we start out can you both introduce yourselves without doxing you know yourselves but uh who
what uh what what nim should we call you who are you and and maybe like how did how did you both
end up at bpi because i feel like i kind of like you were both doing other things and all of a
sudden it was like you were both there at bpi bpi is doing all sorts of incredible stuff which i

(04:53):
want to get into but like how did you both end up there what like what drew you to that i'll i'll
jump in first since I was there slightly pre Mills. But very grateful that and feel like a
little bit a part of getting to have her. You'll get a shout out. Don't you worry.
Really, it was all Mills getting, you know, getting her job. But I was extremely thrilled to

(05:17):
have her join the team since she's also been a friend for a little while with in the Bitcoin
world, but beyond. I last year, about a year and a half ago, joined BPI for a temporary, like just
coming on as their kind of single person to help with the summit beyond the three full-time team

(05:42):
and like two part-time people. Actually, maybe just one part-time person at that time. So very,
very small group and I came on and helped do the summit last year and it was awesome.
And then about sometime last summer, I started as Grant and David's assistant
and slash also handling events to an extent as we've gotten a bigger team, especially a team

(06:09):
that's based in DC. I like my role has shifted there, but I kind of just help where I can.
It's really fun getting to do what I like to do.
I was volunteering for doing Bitcoin related events up until this.
So it's kind of like right up my wheelhouse.
Although this has been a very atypical Bitcoin event world, which is kind of another cool thing.

(06:35):
It's like a merging of like the normal people world with Bitcoin.
Does that make sense?
Are we saying politicians are normal though?
Uh, cause, but, but different where people like wear suits, for example, to attend things.
Um, that was just, you know, I used to go to events where people wore like button downs

(07:03):
and slacks and suits.
And then I didn't for several years, once I got into Bitcoin ever see a suit at a Bitcoin
event and now we're back.
So it's, it's been very cool.
the suits came full circle it was it was only a matter of time before the suits came
we're so back i also feel like there's there's the kind of being able like bedside manner but also

(07:28):
the let's say social capital social graces social skills that i think there's a spectrum within the
bitcoin space there's actually a lot of different spectrums within the bitcoin space and i think
Like we're out here trying to, in some ways, I low key think of myself as trying to help heal the public image of Bitcoin.

(07:53):
Because a lot of people, however they first heard about it, I mean, this is just human psychology, but like your first impression tends to be hard to supplant.
And so if they thought it was drug money for Silk Road, or if they thought that it's money laundering, or if they thought that it's like an incel in the basement playing video games, that's probably how they still think about it.

(08:17):
And it actually takes a significant rewrite and neural pathway reconstruction to say, actually, it's freedom money. Actually, there are a lot of really cool implications.
But anyway, sorry, tangent off of it's hard to be.
We have to it's like we're day walkers pretending that we're normal.

(08:39):
We're still not normal, but we at least are normal passing.
We're normal presenting like we throw a suit on a Bitcoiner and like you kind of forget that they're a little bit of an anarchist.
And I mean an anarchist in like the true sense of the word, like not in the Hollywood sense of like Mad Max, but in the like anarchist, like from the Greek without rulers, without chiefs.

(09:05):
Like that's ultimately what Bitcoiners are, which is why I find like Bitcoin, the Bitcoin policy institute to be such an interesting thing, because it's like a bunch of people who I know and have heard talk about how deeply they care about Bitcoin.
And a lot of whom are very, let's say, anti-state or anti-state control and anti-centralized authority.

(09:25):
That's why they're into Bitcoin.
And yet you're actively I mean, it's a it's a think tank technically, right?
That's like what the, that's the DC jargon for it. Like it's a think tank, right?
That's what we are.
Okay. Maybe let's, let's like start there. Like what, so like, what does a think tank do?
Like, is it, it's just like a lot of, just a lot of people pondering at any given time.

(09:49):
Right there in the name.
Yeah.
Yeah. But we sit in a war tank while we do it.
Okay. Okay. Okay.
Yeah.
Maybe like, okay, so jokes aside, like, what do you view as, like, what is the goal of BPI? Like, what do you hope to accomplish? Because like, I think a lot of people have now seen the different summits that have been put on, like, big names at these things.

(10:15):
Obviously, Senator Cynthia Lummis has been very prominent at them.
She's kind of a staple at many Bitcoin events now.
And from the multiple times I've met her, seems like legitimately an incredibly decent person and like very not the kind of politician that you typically see around D.C.

(10:35):
But like, do you hope to kind of create more or bring more people in that are like Cynthia Lummis?
Do those people already exist?
Is it about persuading other people just not to like try to stomp Bitcoin out?
What do you what's the goal?
Well, I'll I'll give my how I got to BPI story.
We got distracted to the goal.

(10:57):
So it's the perfect setup.
I've been in the Bitcoin space professionally for about five years and more on the media side, more on the storytelling side, both with Bitcoin magazine and thank God for Bitcoin.
and PubKey. And honestly, this is where Mads gets the shout out. I had been traveling last year. I

(11:20):
kind of took a sabbatical, mostly off of Bitcoin, off of Twitter, off of everything and traveled,
went to all 50 states in one year, which was crazy. It was a really crazy thing. I didn't
actually start out the year planning to do that. It kind of by Thanksgiving, I decided that I should
just full send because I still had Alaska. That was the tough one to get. But on my travels,

(11:45):
I swung through and was able to go on a walk with Mads and grab a coffee. And that was,
I think, the first time I knew that BPI was going to be hiring. And I knew, I've known
David and Grant, the co-presidents of BPI. I've known them since before BPI existed.

(12:07):
and when I was at Bitcoin Magazine, they would just be like in one of our conference rooms,
writing on the whiteboard, like memeing this into existence. Like, what if we do this? And,
you know, we would say things like, oh, you're making a super PAC or, oh, you're lobbyists or,
you know, we were, we were joke. It was very playful at the time. And over the years, yeah,

(12:28):
the summit, this is going to be our third annual summit, but the summit began to be a thing that was
a very important, you know, in the portfolio of BPI. But the goal of Bitcoin Policy Institute,
and I think this is where I like, I'm super happy to be here. And I know,

(12:49):
most of my friends are like, that's cool. I know why you're doing that. There are some Bitcoiners
that are probably similarly, politically and ideologically viewing the world as I am,
but they will have kind of a reaction like, why would I even care?
Why does it even matter? Why is it important?

(13:11):
And I think that brings us to the goal, which ultimately it is relationships.
And Cynthia Lemus has become kind of the Bitcoiner people's senator
because she is talking about it.
And the reality of right now is there is a vast chasm and void of education and understanding about Bitcoin.

(13:42):
So I think like tagline snappy, BPI exists to demystify Bitcoin to a lot of people.
And I think if we don't have these foundational relationships with Congress and executive and regulatory, we want BPI to be the go-to source for any government official if they have a question about Bitcoin.

(14:06):
because like it or not, there will be legislation created.
There will be laws and sanctions and there will be control that will be written
and that will be passed and that will exist and it will impact everyone.
So, yeah, you can head in the sand and you can say like, oh, you know,

(14:28):
D.C. is the swamp or whatever.
You can say whatever you want.
And there is a truth in that you have to, I think the point being like go to where the decisions are being made to influence that through education and awareness.
and also raising the profile of Bitcoin to say,

(14:52):
hey, we're a nonprofit, we're a 501c3,
fully dedicated and focused on helping make the case
that Bitcoin advances American interest
and also influence and inform people to be able to craft policy
that helps Bitcoin grow and that protects American Bitcoiners and companies.

(15:14):
And I think there is a value, there is an importance. Obviously, I'm passionate enough
about it. And I think that's where after working in the space and then taking this year off,
there were not a lot of things that I thought were worthwhile doing with my time. And I wanted a job
that I felt like I could put my weight behind and be very passionate and know it mattered. And it is

(15:37):
such a really prescient time to be working in this space because the administration is so open
and so friendly. This is, we got to do it right because it's so much easier to make good law,
good policy than fix what gets written and is broken and breaking. And we're feeling the impact
of it. Sorry, long rant. Thank you so much for listening. No, like I said, this is always a safe

(16:01):
space for, uh, for rants. I mean, I, first of all, Mads, is there anything you wanted to add
on top of that? And then I've got just kind of like a follow-up. At risk of basically restating
less eloquently what Mills just said. I'll throw my two cents in. I agree. I have a lot of people,
I run a meetup and a lot of like times people come up and they are very kind of anti even

(16:23):
being associated with the political world. And I, my, my response is, you know, I live in America.
I do love my country and I don't have the resources or the want to flee the country if,
things get oppressive. So ideally I'm going to want the best laws, the best, you know,

(16:46):
like legislature, like, sorry, legislature for, um, for Bitcoin because I'm pro Bitcoin also.
So it's kind of, yeah, it's, it's like kind of working in the weeds, but you're,
and, and some people, I don't think necessarily even have that same tendency to like be slightly

(17:07):
against the political world that Mills and I might have.
But, you know, that are associated with Bitcoin,
they may just be all pro-Bitcoin policy, which is great.
And I think that there's definitely a balance.
But, yeah, I just want it to be the place I live.
I want companies, Bitcoin companies, to be friendly to them.

(17:30):
And like I said, there will be more Bitcoin businesses.
So, yeah, I'm similar to what Mills said.
I think in our circumstances, it's kind of the best option.
Why not try to, you know, if there's someone that's friendly, has an ear out to us,
why not try to push for the best Bitcoin policy we can get?

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(19:42):
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this podcast. So thank you. I think it's an interesting thing because I haven't been in
Bitcoin that long. I mean, I guess it's starting to feel like a long time, but like, I didn't start
like stacking really until like, like, partway through 2020. Like it wasn't until like COVID

(20:06):
really after having ignored it. Like I, I think I ignored Bitcoin for much longer than I've been,
you know, paying attention to Bitcoin. But like, even in that time, what I've been able to see is
like Bitcoiners are really good at having something to push against, like something to fight against
something to like just rail against something that you feel like you need like a common enemy

(20:29):
you know and it's very easy when that enemy is like the government when that enemy is the lawmakers
who are you know like the when if everybody's an elizabeth warren like it's really easy to be like
that's who we are fighting against these you know tyrannical would-be commie dictators who want to
absolutely strip away any semblance of freedom that you have when you start seeing politicians

(20:52):
like actually come around to this, it gets to be like a little bit of a weird thing. Cause you're
like, all right, well they're, they're saying the same things we're saying. Are they on like our
side now? Are we on the same team? Do we, do we actually want the same thing? Are they just paying
us lip service? Cause they want our votes and our donations. Like it gets to be a little bit of a
muddier area. And I think that's where Bitcoiners, myself included, start to get a little bit like

(21:16):
wary of some of these things, but it's like, it's in many ways, it's a like, same with a national
strategic reserve. It's a natural consequence of Bitcoin succeeding, right? Like this is what
winning looks like. If Bitcoin is successful and was going to be successful, politicians getting

(21:37):
on board was always going to happen. Whether or not you like that or not, that's beside the point.
It's just like, this is a natural consequence. This is how things were going to go down. And so, you know, it's, I'm, I'm in agreement with, with you, with you Mads that it's like, okay, I live in America. I love America. Like I, America has afforded me many privileges that the majority of people in the world do not have. For that, I am very grateful. I, you can love America without being a simp for the government, right?

(22:09):
Those two things, like they don't have to go hand in hand.
And I think a lot of people kind of miss that.
But like ultimately America is an idea.
And I think that that's like fighting, like Bitcoin is a very, not that Bitcoin is American,
but the idea of Bitcoin is consistent with American values, right?
Like, and I think that's something that's worth fighting for.
I'm kind of curious, just do you feel that just kind of being in the belly of the beast,

(22:35):
there working for a DC think tank. How have you felt the vibe shift to be? Like, clearly,
there's a big difference between this administration, the prior one, how much follow through this
administration will have in the long run. Let's see. But like, there's been, there is no denying
that there's been a massive vibe shift. How do you guys see that kind of from the inside? What's

(22:55):
your feeling on it? You know, still very positive. Do you think things are still heading in the right
direction? How do you see this going down? Go, I'll throw in a little bit, but I will say that
I not in the office So I have a ton of FOMO because the DC office there just a lot happening every day is what I get from being afar is that there just like something new and wild kind of crazy huge happening all the time

(23:20):
They're definitely frustrating setbacks, but the change from November on and the like people
coming to BPI, reaching out to BPI versus BPI reaching out, you know, to try to make good
discussions going else like with others was a huge shift. Um, the interest that we started getting,

(23:43):
I think definitely went along with the administration. I mean, we've been working
very hard and had a lot of good support like the last few years, but it, it definitely changed when
the administration change was coming. Um, and so, yeah, I agree. I don't know how

(24:03):
like long lasting and, you know,
hardened some of the changes will be,
will be that are thrown out and talked about.
But overall, I think it's, it's pretty exciting.
It seems like stuff's definitely happening all the time.
So I'll throw to Mills for more.
What's on the ground.

(24:24):
Oh, on the ground.
So I relocated to DC inauguration weekend, actually.
Literally drove into DC.
like an hour before the crypto ball. Like it was, you know, just dive right in,
go into the deep end. So a lot of, I mean, I would say the biggest thing is there is an openness

(24:49):
to discussing that I don't think has ever been the case. Whereas it's almost, and this is the
analogy I came up with last week at Thames. It feels like Bitcoin kind of used to be the fruit
fly or gnat, just like buzzing around, but really easy to swat it away and disregard.
And all of a sudden, it's like we're a mosquito that might have malaria. And there's like, oh,

(25:16):
we're gonna, there is a little buzzy thing. Okay. All right. What do you want to say? What do you
want to talk about? Okay, we'll hear you out. And there is a little bit of fear. There is a little
bit of the like, oh, we got to catch up. We got to find out what this is about. But I think because
of the shift in the leadership, there is a clear distinction that there is something here and it

(25:45):
would behoove politicians to at least have some fundamental understanding. And there is that
momentum. I think that is the big vibe shift of the curiosity and the openness. And a lot of what
BPI does, you know, on the ground, like there's research, but there's also just a lot of reaching

(26:08):
out and building relationships and it's been surprising how easily easily won over or won
some of the relationships are that it's it's usually like a 10 minute meeting super fast these
these elected officials have super jam-packed schedules but usually we've been met with
yeah and then the sometimes that 10 minutes runs over and it's 45 minutes because they're so

(26:35):
interested or because they're so open to and that that's a specific time from um begich nick begich
who spoke at bitcoin for america and will be speaking at our summit in june but it was it was
really a 10-minute meeting but they were just like having such a blast talking and apparently he's a
huge fan of matt pines's so nice it was just this like nerding out talking about bitcoin and uap like

(27:01):
you know, best case scenario, but those stories keep accumulating of we're reaching out,
we're knocking on doors, we're having meetings. And basically, there is the willingness that I
don't know, up until this point has ever existed. So this is kind of the harvest is ripe and ready.

(27:21):
And there's so much that could be done at this point.
I mean, it's cool to see that shift. And I can imagine that there's a bit of a scrambling going on by some who have maybe thought, I'm just going to ignore Bitcoin.
Like, I mean, the malaria infested mosquito is a hilarious analogy. But, you know, like for a while, like, yeah, that is a good analogy.

(27:45):
Like you could just kind of safely ignore it. You know, maybe us Bitcoiners would say you really shouldn't.
But like from a politician's perspective, it's like you guys don't matter.
You're inconsequential.
It's clear that's no longer the case.
It's clear that the Bitcoin lobby or, you know, I hate to say the larger crypto lobby, but we know that those big crypto companies throw around a ton of money.

(28:09):
People are paying attention.
They pay attention to where donations come from.
They pay attention to who has a massive online presence of really, really vocal people who are also happen to be great at memeing, which is, you know, quite a powerful alliance to have on your side.
So, I mean, does this is is where we're at right now, you think, just like kind of a mad dash towards education?

(28:33):
Like that's like that's what I'm hearing.
Like there's a realization that, OK, I need to get smart about this.
Can't ignore it anymore.
What what is actually going on here?
Or have you been like you've talked about some of like the receptiveness.
Do you see like I'm assuming you, though, you still have a lot of meetings that maybe don't go so great or like is there still a lot of pushback?

(28:53):
Has BPI tried to approach like Elizabeth Warren, for example, or is she too far gone?
I can't speak to that.
That's funny.
I'll just speak for that.
We are open to that discussion.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I don't know that it I'm not aware of it having happened or anything.
So that's that's all I'll say. But yeah, I think we want anyone that will discuss it with us.

(29:18):
We don't we don't want it to be where like we're just talking to one side of the aisle here because there are definite reasons for people on both sides of the aisle to be behind Bitcoin and supportive of it.
I mean, yeah, to me, it's just a no brainer for anyone.
But, you know, that's that's coming from someone that has been very deeply obsessed with Bitcoin for a while.

(29:42):
So I, you know, I don't know.
But we I think there's definitely a mix.
There are definitely people wanting that education.
And then there's like there are different levels there.
There's staffers that are really interested, like someone on a, you know, politician staff is super interested in that kind of gets the ball rolling.
Or, you know, sometimes there are people that my sense is, and this is, again, just my sense, I'm not having these political meetings, to be clear, is that maybe they are wanting to get involved because they can sense the momentum around it.

(30:19):
they may not be there to like understand it yet um or really they're very politicians seem they're
very busy and they have like this such a small like like it's like trying to like stick your
hand to a closing door you know like that to like get through to actually have stuff land
they're they're not saying they're not smart but they just don't have enough time in the day to

(30:41):
take on everyone's issues that are coming to them so um some people maybe aren't as like they're
definitely some baggage that Mills was talking about that are actually, they're like, wow,
they get it. We're excited about that. And there are others that get that it's a big deal. And I
think want to be involved and be associated with it just because they know that there's a movement.

(31:08):
And I would say, if you had to really boil down BPIs, not the threshold, but the two main focuses,
of yes education but it's persuading people who are undecided about bitcoin and then legitimizing
the pro-bitcoin stances with those in power who agree with us so we're not necessarily focusing

(31:35):
our energy and time on the like they don't know anything um they're against it we'll spend some
time we're not against it but i think most of our time and efforts is focused on these
people that are undecided that are kind of curious or open or have some angle that it would make a lot
of sense. And we can kind of say how that would make sense within their platforms or policies or

(32:00):
what they're, you know, working on in their elected, you know, capacity.
I mean, it makes sense. You want to target like the highest value targets that are going to
require the least amount of convincing to like realize, hey, this is why you should be paying
attention to this. This is why this is not just good for you, but like, this is good for your
constituents. This is good for America. Like that's the wild thing is that like any American

(32:25):
politician that is actually pro America should love Bitcoin because like, if you like freedom,
if you like the idea of a small government that is decentralized, that, you know, the federal
government is way too fricking big. I think we can all agree with that. I don't know if a lot
of politicians would, but it's a fact. Like our founding fathers would be rolling over and vomiting

(32:47):
uncontrollably in their graves if they could see how large our federal government has gotten.
But like Bitcoin is ultimately extremely pro-America. Like it's because it's pro-American
people. It gives power to American people. Like if you're against that, you're just kind of outing
yourself as being anti-American. That's just what I think, Elizabeth Warren. But anyway, not to

(33:08):
not to spend too much time on on old liz but so with these with these summits that you guys put
together like is that are you is there like an open invite to basically like any any politician
be like you can you just have your team reach out you can come or do you guys again target it to
those like higher value or not higher value like higher potential people the people that are already

(33:31):
closer to being won over to the orange side both okay basically so anyone that's a government
employee we're like come to our summit anyone um but as far as elected officials yeah we we actually
spend a lot of time we're trying to have it balanced in it for it to not just be republicans

(33:53):
that are speaking about it and we had at bfa we had rocana and i feel like it's harder to find
Democrats that are interested and that want to talk about it, but we're actively trying to kind
of keep it open. There isn't the threshold or barrier to entry on that point, but we are actively

(34:16):
seeking out. So it's both. We're open to anyone, join the conversation, get educated, understand.
And I think the big thing probably is at this juncture, we're still really trying to make sure there's a clear distinction between what Bitcoin and crypto and digital assets.

(34:37):
And I think having that delineation and saying we're Bitcoin Policy Institute is Bitcoin first.
All of our time and energy, we're all focused on Bitcoin.
So that's the language we use.
But it's important that we kind of continue that education because we believe Bitcoin should be treated uniquely and not just the same as all of the other cryptocurrencies and digital assets.

(35:05):
And we did see one of the things that I was very pleased to see in the Trump executive order around the Bitcoin strategic reserve.
This is coming after, of course, his like couple of posts on Truth Social where I heard there was some weird stuff with like an XRP lawyer guy who like got in and managed to convince Trump that he should put out this tweet on Truth Social that included XRP.

(35:31):
And then like afterwards, he felt like very, I don't know if this was just this is hearsay, but that he felt like, you know, kind of like, you know, fool me once, you're fired, basically. And that person is now persona non grata. I don't know if that's actually the case, but this is what I heard.
But after that initial little debacle, the actual language of the Bitcoin strategic reserve bill very clearly made a delineation between Bitcoin and crypto.

(36:00):
And I know that a lot of that language from what I saw BPI fellows posting is consistent with a lot of the materials that BPI has been producing, right?
Can you talk about that a little bit and maybe just what that was kind of like to see that?
Because that must have been a pretty nice win for you guys to see that kind of stuff.

(36:21):
This is a huge deal.
This is an executive order.
This is a game changer in terms of the stance toward Bitcoin.
Yeah, it's the one time when you're kind of excited about being plagiarized or having someone cheat off your work.
yeah some of the language from like bpi's white paper was you know it just so happened to be

(36:47):
also in the executive order which is it's pretty significant and it's pretty encouraging that we're
making an impact and that we do have you know the ears or at least like making inroads to having
ears as this the SBR the strategic bitcoin reserve is such a it was such a focus initially and then

(37:09):
now not that it's not still a focus and a priority but you know now there's new things new things
that are happening and it's kind of hopeful that we can continue to grow our ability to platform
good policy. At the end of the day, the point of BPI is to be able to provide the structure

(37:33):
with a deeper understanding because we know, realistically, politicians aren't going to become
experts in Bitcoin, most likely. And so we want to stand in the gap and be able to say,
hey, we're actually trying to do this research so you can copy our work because we're thinking
about this with a deep understanding of Bitcoin and how long term this would play out.

(37:56):
And I think that is we're at the beginning, but I think we have more momentum than ever.
And it feels feels really exciting of what of what is to come.
Mad, do you have anything on top of that?
I mean, no, other than yeah, that was a roller coaster of a week that the Truth Social post

(38:18):
and with XRP and then, then like the actual executive order coming out and the like Bitcoin
kind of being singled out. I mean, the, it was, you know, and we had an event the next week in
DC, um, that was focused on getting that either, you know, getting the bill or an executive order

(38:41):
at the time when we were starting to plan, like the goal was to rally, to get like executive order
anvil and then it's like we got the executive order right before the the event so um it was
kind of a crazy crazy fun wild time which is it feels like how it's been the whole time at ppi
the stuff just things just keep happening um and i think that's that like you can just do stuff

(39:07):
thing you know like that what's what's going on and it's it's crazy to see it as just doing stuff
and then things happening on like a really high level, like, you know, on a national level or
something when we're just kind of a little bit mind blown. We're pretty small group. And yeah,

(39:28):
it's, it's awesome. It's like, you can just do things. You can just start a think tank and
influence an executive order written by the president of the most powerful nation in the
world. Like you can just do that, like, which is wild. And like, maybe just very quickly for anybody
who hasn't actually read the text of that executive order, I read it for you. So you can
just go listen on this show. You're welcome. But also, I think the key thing that was cool to see,

(39:52):
and again, this is not me saying, yes, I want the US government to buy as much Bitcoin as
they can, just to clarify, not saying that at all. This is a natural, again, a natural progression.
This was always going to happen if Bitcoin was winning, when I put that caveat in there.
But they basically said, okay, Bitcoin and crypto are different. We are going to create
strategic stockpiles of each. We will not dispose of any of the Bitcoin. We will potentially acquire

(40:18):
more. We will not acquire any more of the crypto, but we will potentially dispose of it. So literally
like two polar opposites in terms of the treatment. That was what I thought was like great to see,
because then that's just, again, one more piece of information that's helping even just the
average person see there's a difference between these two because like obviously there's still

(40:42):
like not you know they have most politicians don't understand bitcoin most people don't understand
bitcoin and most people still think that bitcoin and crypto are like one and the same thing
and like sam bankman freed created this bitcoin token thing and like like the education like is
still so important that's why we always need more bitcoin podcasts but i digress can you guys talk a

(41:03):
little bit about the summit that you have coming up here in what, about a month or so? Yeah.
So what's, yeah, talk about that. What's the theme of this one? What's the goal?
When is it? June 25th, right? Am I correct on that? Okay. What's happening? Who's going to be
there? Can anybody come and check this out? What's the deal?

(41:26):
well this is our third one and we've we've like grown in size i was part of the second
bitcoin policy summit so we're growing in size again um for our third one and it's i mean i think
it's going to be awesome there's going to be i think mills i'll let mills discuss more on like

(41:52):
the programming side of, of it. Cause she's more involved there, but, um, we would, we want everyone
to come. It's going to be great. And there are more, because we have a larger team now, we have
a few like more external events going on, um, or satellite. I don't know the right word for that,
but yeah, we've got a party the night before, um, like a cocktail party, welcome party the night

(42:16):
before the summit. And then you have an option to get a ticket for our day on the Hill, which is
going to be something really unique this year, where we have people on our team that are setting
up a whole day where they're lining up appointments with politicians on the Hill, and you go and you
get to meet with them and discuss Bitcoin. And there's also some training as to how to speak to

(42:41):
the congressman so there's you actually you know what they need to what they're gonna
take in in a short meeting and like how to get your points across um so it's gonna be really
cool and it's um at the ronald reagan building and international trade center which is right
kind of between the white house and the capital it's like just off the national mall um as someone

(43:08):
that is not from that area, being able to have gone up to D.C. a few times now for work.
It's been really cool.
It's kind of like come my what I'd say to people not in D.C. is like, come check it out
and do like a little history more while you're there.
It's really cool to me to come to D.C., you know, in the last few years and see it.

(43:32):
I think I'd been once when I was younger, but really like take it in.
And yeah, there's a good energy in D.C. right now. It feels overall positive, I think, when I've been up there.
I've had a really nice time. So, yeah, I think it's going to be it's going to be really cool this year to have like an aspect where we get to go and actually talk to lawmakers and push Bitcoin.

(43:57):
Can you talk at all about, or I don't know if you're allowed to disclose, but any of the folks that may be coming?
Like, are we going to see some familiar faces, some new faces?
Are there surprise guests?
How does this all work?
All of the above.
Yes.
We have announced some speakers.

(44:19):
I think Mads has the list at the ready.
She can rattle off some of those.
I told her, I'm like, I'm living a little too much in the programming world. So I don't know
what's public or not. So I'm like, you know, we've got some cool surprises. We've got some really,
really fun things. And I think from thematic, maybe the first year was, you know, this is

(44:41):
important or Bitcoin is something relevant that we should talk about. It touches things.
I think last year's summit is also the, you know, it's like, it's still, we're still, I'm going to say year three, we're still explaining and emphasizing the importance of Bitcoin.

(45:03):
Not sadly, but like, I think there's been a ton that's been done and a ton of progress and a ton of growth.
But at the end of the day, it's like in traditional lobbying, there's understanding of the issue, like with weed or with abortion or with guns, like, right, all of those issues.
There's a fundamental understanding of what it is.

(45:25):
And the issue that we're coming up against is people don't know what Bitcoin is still.
Like, okay, digital money, digital gold, cryptocurrency.
But as far as understanding what sets it apart, understanding that there's just so much education.
So coming at it, there will be a lot of fun new faces that will be really special.

(45:52):
But also kind of within the thematic umbrellas of Bitcoin, the asset, Bitcoin, the network, and then the production and generation of Bitcoin.
because especially for a lot of the relevant policies and regulations
that are currently either in the way of business growth practically in America,

(46:19):
it a lot in the energy and mining world because a lot of that is the more highly regulated industry So making sure there is education and understanding on what when we saying mining what is that you know
and I think there's still, it's like when you've used the language and the nomenclature for a long

(46:41):
time, then you get used to it. But remembering that we have a different vocabulary and we have
a different set of understanding that has to get broken down and get explained. And for, you know,
a lot of the bigger mining companies have policy people, have people that are really working on
that education. So it's partnering even with those Bitcoin mining companies to be able to

(47:03):
clearly address and show use cases and explain why we need regulation or protection or freedom
to continue to grow and kind of even play it out a little of if America isn't the leader,
like, what does that mean? What kind of, you know, is that what we want? And what would that look

(47:27):
like if that happened? And I think exploring some of those topics and having some of those
discussions, it's going to be really fun. I'm a little biased. I know. I think there's going to be
the the party beforehand I'm really excited about um I'm planning it so I uh there there will be this

(47:47):
is the this is the like alpha not has not been announced but there will be a live karaoke band
that will be playing music for most of the night and then the very talented people
will be tapped on the shoulder by me to be a part of kind of a show,

(48:10):
like a little Rakamoto adjacent.
And then at the end of the night, it will be more of a free-for-all
and people will have been drinking and have at it with a live band karaoke.
Oh, man.
So I can say Carla and I are going to be there
and we're super stoked to come check this out.
I know there's a much better chance that you're tapping Carla on the shoulder

(48:32):
than tapping me. Please do not tap me, actually. Yeah, but just wanted to put that out there.
But no, I mean, on that note, Mills, I know you mentioned previously, it's not like BPI isn't
just putting out these papers and doing this congressional outreach. There's other elements

(48:53):
to the community outreach, let's say. Can you talk a little bit about that aspect of it? How
does that factor into the larger kind of goals of BPI? Why is that even like important?
Yeah, well, my, my title is director of community affairs. So it's funny, because our director of

(49:13):
government affairs, that's like a very DC title. I don't know that community affairs, anyone else in
DC has, but it's kind of we're trying to play the game. But also, there's a pun in there, if you know,
you know but the building of community was really important and win is really important to

(49:34):
bpi and when they initially reached out to me and talked to me about this role it's like
hey there isn't a ton of community there are some bitcoiners that live in dc but there just isn't a
vibrant Bitcoin community that exists here. And that grassroots level is a really important way

(49:57):
for education to really be successful, to have that rooting. And yeah, we're going to keep talking
to the elected officials and we're going to keep trying. But also if there's a community that has
a presence physically. It's another solidifying force and very exciting news. At some point

(50:19):
in this year, you know, PubKey DC will open and we'll have our offices within. So stay tuned on
news on that. But that'll be really huge. And right now we're hosting a monthly happy hour.
And it's so silly, the people that are there that are like, sometimes they think it's Bank Policy Institute, like someone from the FDIC came last week and then was talking to me about like what I think the future of banking is and regulations.

(50:47):
And I was trying to pawn him off because I'm like, I don't know that I am the right person to be answering your questions because I'm trying to, you know, like put blinders on and be like, okay, so imagine I've worked at the FDIC for 10 years and I do research.
So what is my worldview?
What do I believe?
What part of Bitcoin is not going to make me sound like a crazy person?

(51:11):
What will he be able to hear?
I was I don't know that I've ever been in a conversation in my life where I started sweating
but I started sweating during this I was like he just kept asking like hard hitting hard hitting
hard hitting anyway but normally the happy hours are like oh there's some CIA people that like
Bitcoin oh there's some people from it's it's really wild because it's like Bitcoiners and

(51:38):
Bitcoiners that have jobs that you're like, how? What? Huh? So it's really surprising.
Always a wild, different selection and smattering. This month, actually on May 22nd on Bitcoin
Pizza Day, we're hosting a family-friendly, I'm very excited about this one, a family-friendly,

(52:00):
like it's a happy hour, but we'll be having pizza in DC. And it's going to be a really good time.
I think it's taken some time to get to know all the people that are already here that have been doing community things.
But I think that's starting to grow and having more stability and saying we're going to keep throwing happy hours.
People just if you have a question, if you're curious, if you want to talk about Bitcoin, if you want to meet other Bitcoiners, just having things happening in D.C. for people to kind of come and meet up with each other.

(52:32):
Did you ask the CIA guys if they created Bitcoin?
because i'm just kidding no but in all seriousness i think that idea of like the
you know like the third place is really important right like that's what pub key is right that's what
like uh like for anyone that's not familiar like the third place is like it's not work or school
and it's not home like it's it's another place that you can go and like maybe it's church maybe

(52:57):
it's a bar maybe it's whatever but like maybe it's you know a bitcoin meetup but it's like
having a different type of place where you can go and have conversations that you don't have at any
of those other places and like i mean yeah i'm sure you get some very interesting characters uh
in there it's interesting too about just like the you know you never know in what roles you may find

(53:18):
like kind of quiet bitcoiners like who are just like it's kind of like bitcoiners like uh not only
is bitcoin a trojan horse but kind of like bitcoiners as well or like individual trojan horses
like we're kind of everywhere and you just never know where you're going to find one.
And like, I think that's kind of a cool thing.
Like it's, it's very powerful also.
Cause it's like, we're just slowly infiltrating, you know, spreading our orange tentacles into

(53:42):
everything we can get into it.
Like a very not, but like, but we're not trying to like do weird stuff.
We're just trying to give you more freedom.
So like, you can feel good about it, which is nice.
There are definitely like surprise Bitcoiners out there that wear suits already that, that
just were waiting, I think, for something a little bit more in their comfort zone to come to D.C. or

(54:02):
to come to Bitcoin, if that makes sense. But yeah, there are definitely people I've met that
were already, I like approach probably the first first go round of being at an event in D.C. I was
thinking that a lot like no one knows anything about Bitcoin because they're all from the D.C.
world and no offense that is super terrible of me to even think but I you know assumptions were made

(54:29):
they weren't in t-shirts and hoodies like I didn't know and um and but then I'd find out like oh you're
actually already you're very knowledgeable in this like this is not new to you at all
they've just kind of been like in the in the world but on the sidelines like and I think what Mills is
doing is really awesome. It's giving me like so much FOMO of wanting to be in DC every month for,

(54:56):
and even more than like more often than that, I like have a FOMO event every week at least.
So they, you know, like it's, it's great. I think this could be like a really big statement, but
I think that what's going to be going on with Bitcoin in DC is going to have it be a city that's
on the map for Bitcoiners. Maybe not like Nashville or Austin yet, but it's definitely

(55:22):
going to have a draw, I think, for sure. I think that's a good thing too, right?
It'd be good if the nation's capital was also like a Bitcoin hub full of lots of toxic psychopaths.
That's something that I would want. Yeah. And the more Bitcoin cities, the more we just have

(55:44):
kind of the community aspect within different cities, the stronger, you know, ultimately our
network becomes. And I think there's, it's small here. When I moved to Nashville, I was shocked at
how many Bitcoiners there were, but there wasn't something, there wasn't a meetup, but there was,
there were just lots of people that were going about their lives being Bitcoiners.

(56:06):
So I think this is a lot of, you know, settling the frontier in Nashville versus D.C., the new Wild West, the new frontier.
It feels a lot more grassroots to educate and to kind of inspire and to kind of get people even interested.

(56:28):
And I don't if there are secret Bitcoiners like meeting underground.
I haven't been invited yet.
I would love to be invited.
That would be so nice.
Let me know.
I'm deplatformed actually on Twitter.
So I can't, I can't answer a DM, but you know, Noster hasn't kicked me off.
So when did you get kicked off, kicked off Twitter or X, excuse me.

(56:53):
I know I still call it Twitter.
It happened.
It was either last week or the week before.
I think it was early last week.
What did you do?
You know, honestly, the last thing that I did was I retweeted our head of policy, Zach Shapiro, who's a very, like, he'll say these big things, but he's very well spoken.

(57:14):
and he's been super involved in the samurai case and recently like well well-worded little rant
about basically the they prosecuted as money transmitting even though they knew the samurai
wasn't money transmitting and i i'm gonna be honest injustice isn't great doesn't sit well

(57:38):
with me. I have a really tough time with it. And that was what I retweeted. And like, I don't think
I put any flavor. I don't remember, but I, that was my last action. And I have this, I'll show you
what, what it, it looks like on my phone. It's really funny. And, um, Matt Pines looked me up

(57:58):
the other day. He's like, yeah, you don't exist. This is when I load it. This is what it is.
that it's still what what does that say on there i can't quite i just oops something went wrong
please try again later uh-oh an error was encountered try again and i'm just um if you
go like i can see this is my handle but i'm just fully i've tried you're putting it i've tried it

(58:25):
on on desktop yeah i'm i don't know that's that's so crazy i'm pretty sure i retweeted the same thing
but I need to go check now.
It didn't get me booted unless I like retweeted something else adjacent that
wasn't the controversial thing.
I don't know.
That's really crazy.
Wait, what was it that was so controversial about like,

(58:50):
cause I listened to his,
he was just on what Bitcoin did with Danny.
It was like great episode.
Highly recommend people check it out.
Always happy to show other people's podcasts.
Cause again, we need more.
Great episode. And like, I didn't know the whole thing about the FDIC basically told the federal prosecutors like, oh, no, they're not money transmitters. And then the federal prosecutors were like, okay, wait six months and then literally like arrest them, which is like, but the people who are in like the people who are in charge of the rules that you say they're breaking said they weren't breaking the rules.

(59:30):
so like what the fuck like so did you i mean did you like did you throw like an extra spicy quote
tweet on there or like what you know i can't in my mind like i didn't think i was doing anything
that would cost me my freedom of speech um and i thought we were past those days regardless um

(59:54):
i i don't i think it was it's like maybe something of if the people in power abuse their power
like what does that mean for our freedom or you know something probably like slightly philosophical
and like nothing crazy you weren't like like murder them yeah right no i mean well yeah who

(01:00:17):
knows um i mean i guess like i'm very glad noster exists like we're live streaming there right now
and nobody can shut that down um and nobody can de-platform you off of your uh off of your end
pub which is a very powerful thing like i don't know it's uh you know i i always worry because

(01:00:38):
it's like i think things are probably as much as there seems to be like a a bit of a vibe shift
towards like more free speech and more you know yeah like let's get some more of that freedom back
in here at the end of the day like the bureaucracy is so incredibly entrenched and like the like the
state apparatus the surveillance state the military industrial complex like all of these incredibly

(01:01:03):
powerful entrenched institutions and three-letter agencies that like yeah the administration may
change but you're never gonna like root out all of the deep state like that's just not going to
happen and so like i think the surveillance state gets a lot worse before it gets any better like
i don't know sadly i i agree with you and i i i mean i'm really anti-social media and i think

(01:01:29):
it's funny that i like the two that that i had linked in because i it was my only connection
to people I went to college with and X, I'm deplatformed on both of those. So I guess jokes
on me, like you try to hold on, you just whatever, you get learned, you learn a lesson. But ultimately,

(01:01:50):
I think until people realize that the amount of access and monitoring and data harvesting and
information that they are giving away for free until everyone knows that they are the product,
they like it's gonna keep getting worse and I I actually fear for like more of the social credit

(01:02:10):
or the like it becoming important like if you don't have social media then you can't do things
because they can't get your like your character they don't know and I I I know that's black mirror
but I also know that that's real in China so also there's there's the reality that I feel like a lot

(01:02:32):
of people think it's convenient think that social media has no downside it's all like great they're
really into it and I know I'm on the extreme and that is like a supreme social media disrespecter
but at the same time I think we're gonna have to learn the hard way because everyone else is just so

(01:02:54):
you don't realize it until I think someone has to go without it for a few days or a week or
hours or whatever. Like everyone is so hooked up to the IV that is just inundating and they're
living on the drip system of information. And I think that's where a lot of the closed-mindedness

(01:03:16):
comes from because they're perpetuating and just completely drunk on whatever they're being told
to be listening to or not be listening to.
And I think that's the real problem
because critical thinking has been gone for so long
in the mainstream.
And so there's just a closed-mindedness,

(01:03:36):
but then there's a gaslighting.
If you told anyone they're closed-minded,
it's like, no, you're being hateful now.
It's just like, I don't know how to live in this world, guys.
Yeah, I don't know.
It's like, I think like many people, I have kind of like a love hate relationship with social media because on the one hand, like social media has allowed me to meet all of these incredible Bitcoiners such as yourselves who I now consider friends.

(01:04:05):
And like, that's an incredible thing.
Right.
But on the other hand, it's just like the way that social media platforms, and I'll separate that from protocols like Noster, but the way that these platforms have been constructed, like they are meant to just trigger dopamine hit after dopamine hit and get you addicted and keep you coming back for more.

(01:04:25):
And like, okay, there's like our generation, which is one thing, like we're not digital natives.
We didn't like we remember dial up and DSL and like, you know, we remember things.
Yeah, we remember things needing to buffer.
Like that's like, yeah, like what I worry about is like the Zoomers and the Gen Alpha, like they have grown up with this as like this.

(01:04:53):
All the social media came right along with their mother's milk.
Like it's just it's a part of their lives from the start.
And we don't, we have literally no idea what that's going to do to them in like 20 years, like 40 years.
Like we don't know what the law, like we're, they're just, they're guinea pigs.
Like we're all guinea pigs to an extent.
And like, one thing I always find funny is like boomers were always the ones who are like, you know, that the Facebooks are going to rock your brains and stuff.

(01:05:20):
And then like, who are the only people left on Facebook?
It's like the boomers, you know, like, so I don't know.
There's just a, an aside there, but like, it's good.
I don't know. I don't know what happens in the long term, but it's not going to be great.
Well, it's scary, but also I think, and maybe this is too bullish and too optimistic,
but I actually think because the Zoomers are tech native and did grow up, they have this,

(01:05:46):
they're almost like inherently accepting of Bitcoin in a way that millennials and Gen X,
like we had to learn it understand it it's internet money it's like we had to learn the internet and
understand what it is zoomers don't understand the difference between data and wi-fi a lot of them
i'm not saying all of them but like there's internet that's it and like because we grew up

(01:06:11):
where you once got internet on a cd that came in the mail that you put into a cd drive like all
these archaic things. I think Bitcoin, actually, the timing of it all is fantastic that all these
Zoomers, I think they're less obsessed with the nuance and cool whatever of Bitcoin. They just see

(01:06:35):
it as money because money for them has always been on their phone. Money isn't tactile. Money
isn't physical for them. And so I actually think there's a hopeful edge to it. What does it mean
social media wise and like mental health wise i don't know how that works out but actually i think
it's great for bitcoin if they're around i guess yeah it's fair go ahead mezz that's very optimistic

(01:07:00):
and i'm i hope that that is our reality i like i hate black mirror because it is so it i can see
the future it's like just looking into the future i think that when it first came out a lot of people
just think, I was kind of crazy, whatever. I don't think they like understood the gravity of
how close we are. Like, that's not like 30 years away. A lot of the stuff that we've seen on there.

(01:07:26):
So I don't watch it. Um, I can't, I get so upset when my husband watches it because I don't even
want to like, think about that. Um, I will just go outside and yeah. And be happy, touch grass and,
and just try to like live the,
as long as I can in the world before we get taken over by, you know,

(01:07:49):
social credit control or whatever it might be. But I do, I agree.
I do like that we were able to, you know, become friends through.
Otherwise I don't know that I would have crossed paths with y'all.
Like if I had not had or any Bitcoiners,
it would have been,
it would have taken a while for me to reach other Bitcoiners where I live.

(01:08:09):
if I had not had Clubhouse and like had communications with other Bitcoiners for the first time.
It's like reaching out to other aliens.
Like they exist.
Like I heard words like they're out there too.
And then from there, getting involved and going to conferences and meeting friends

(01:08:29):
and volunteering for things and helping with stuff like that would not have happened without social media.
But I kind of I I think I'm also a little bit just in anti it.
I don't spend a lot of time on it.
And I'm fortunate that I've made good community of Bitcoin friends.
If there's something that's breaking news and I work for a Bitcoin company.

(01:08:49):
So if there's some breaking news in Bitcoin, it filters through to me like from I don't have to be fully immersed in social media to follow it.
Because when I was before I actually met other Bitcoiners, I was in that world where like I had to be following on Twitter for an update, you know, like, what's the crazy Bitcoin thing that's happening right now?

(01:09:10):
Or what's the latest argument amongst Bitcoiners that's going on?
I don't have to search for that as much.
I don't really need social media like I used to, which is nice.
But I am in agreement that it is it's not great.
And I hope that Mills' optimistic future of what was going to happen will work out.

(01:09:34):
Is it through social media that you and I met Mads Because I know the first time we met was early Nashville Bitcoin meetup But is that how you found out about the meetup I think that social media may have been how I found out about the media meetup or any like
But I think social media was the only way I knew that Bitcoiners beyond like in my household were there.

(01:09:58):
There were like a lot of them out there and doing events and stuff.
um i my day-to-day would not cross like outside of family members did not cross anyone else that was
talking about bitcoin even still it's still very foreign um but i'd gone to tabconf was my first
event that i went to in person um back in i guess that was maybe 2021 so if you're if that tracks

(01:10:26):
with like early nashville days because i think nashville was not long after that some people i'd
Yeah, August of 21.
Yeah, it was a lightning meetup and I was running my lightning node.
So all thanks to having met other Bitcoiners that said anyone can run a lightning node.
So yeah, I think we met in physical person before I knew you online, but I would not have been there if I had not known through social media that that was going on.

(01:10:57):
This is the thing, too, is like social media itself, it's a tool, right?
It's not inherently bad.
You see that it can be good.
It can absolutely produce positive outcomes.
I think on Noster you see a lot more of those positive outcomes produced because the incentive model is different.
It's like Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is a tool.
It can be used to finance dissident journalists and freedom fighters, or it can be used to finance North Korea's military program.

(01:11:24):
It doesn't matter.
it's a tool right and so like the problem is ultimately like what are the incentives of
the platform what are those driving us towards because like if you're using something mindfully
and very like consciously and you're aware of what it may do to you you can avoid a lot of those
negative effects like in you know if you like i i turn off like i like i don't have any push

(01:11:49):
notifications turned on for x and i have not had them turned on for like years just because i don't
I don't want to be bombarded with that.
I don't like push notifications.
Like if I open it up and see something, then I see it.
Like, but like you can do things that allow you to get the most out of a really great tool because it is a tool for, for, you know, social networking, for cohesion, for planning, like for organizing, like it's really powerful.

(01:12:13):
it can be really shitty too if you're just sitting there mindlessly scrolling scrolling scrolling
like face closer and closer to the phone you know grain further and further away from any sort of
reality like that's when it gets bad but like like anything if you use a tool mindfully you're going
to get something hopefully good out of that tool i think the problem is that most people don't use

(01:12:35):
things mindfully like at all but that's like that's a different story you know i don't know
I don't know if that can be fixed.
Like Bitcoin fixes a lot of things.
It does not necessarily fix most people, you know, sadly.
No.
Yeah.
I think that that's why now I've, I, no stir.
I say, I say no stir.

(01:12:56):
I know I'm in the minority here.
I know, I know.
I really draw it out.
But I think, I think the majority of people say no stir.
Um, but why that was, is, is, and wasn't as so refreshing is that yes, all social media
is a tool, but the, the, like, it's like getting, you know, you have a hammer or you can get
like this fancy contraption that does the same thing as a hammer, but it, it's like

(01:13:19):
just a lot of extra.
And like, that's like, bring it back to the basics is, is what's refreshing because even
just trying to use Twitter as a basic tool to go on and like check in with friends or find a meetup
or an event. It's, it's programmed like to addict you. Like, even if you get on for a few seconds,

(01:13:43):
it's like all of a sudden you're like 30 minutes later, like, Oh my gosh, I was, I didn't even find
what I was looking for because before I got there, I was, something was like pushed in front of my
face that it knows I wanted to dive down a rabbit hole about or something. And I think that there
are good things to that because it helps. Sometimes you might want to find those types of

(01:14:05):
things that are kind of brought to the top of your feed, but it's also, yeah, it's, it's got a lot of
extra stuff and that a lot of the extra stuff can be really bad and really addictive and, and like
either yeah just circle you down and and who knows which direction for the day but Noster is

(01:14:26):
is like oh this is back to like just being able to connect with others you know without the
algorithm like it's great I can and which is why I I'm not like I haven't forgotten about Noster
I just don't use social media a lot so and it's very easy to disconnect from but I don't have any
thing like pinging me back on there and my life goes on. I can like not be on there and I can

(01:14:53):
go out, go on a hike and I'm not thinking about it while I'm on a hike. So, um, yeah, it's, it's
refreshing to have something that's like back to the beginning of why we use social media as a tool
when there's the other stuff is just like super algorithmized to like ruin your life. Maybe,
I don't know. No, it's well, it's like having the ability to like to choose. Right. It's

(01:15:18):
optionality. Like because there are now options for different sorts of, you know, you know,
algorithms because an algorithm is just a set of steps. Right. Like that's not inherently bad
either. That's just a tool. But it's like you have the ability to choose at least. Whereas on
X on I honestly haven't been on Facebook in so many years. I don't even know what their algorithm
does these days. Like I think I don't know how many it's been like since pre covid, I think that

(01:15:42):
I've used Facebook. Like it's been a while. It's just all boomers. I hear now all boomers who
cannot distinguish AI from reality. Also, that's a whole different thing. Like I think boomer boomers
are really ill-equipped to figure out what is AI and what is like real. It'll be like Jesus riding
a rainbow donkey. And they'll be like, can you believe that? Where was this photo taken? You're

(01:16:03):
like, oh my God. But like anything, it's, it's a tool. And if you have the option to choose which
tool to use that's going to benefit you. And that doesn't just get you hooked into habit forming
behaviors that you can mads just say, I'm just going to put this down and go take a hike and
touch some grass. Like, man, that's like, that's great. Like that's ideal. You don't want to feel
that you're somehow like missing something. Like you're missing stuff out there. Like you're

(01:16:27):
missing all, you know, you miss a hundred percent of the grass you never touched. I think is what
Wayne Gretzky said, right? I love that. That quote needs to be up on my wall.
I'll attribute it to you instead of Wayne Gretzky since, you know, we'll give that one to you.
Yeah. The Michael Scott thing, you know, like, like Michael Scott. Yeah.

(01:16:52):
Yeah. I'm sure he also said it just like that, but I'm going to attribute the quote on the wall
like to you for, for sure. I mean, that's a great one.
But you know, okay. We we've we've,
I'm glad we got a chance to talk about the social media side of things too,
because like so much of the political discourse,
this is me trying to bring the weave back full circle.

(01:17:13):
So much of the political discourse now happens on social media,
like so much of the posturing, like, you know,
it's no longer a a one to many information distribution system.
Like you had with cable, you know, like cable news,
back in the day like you don't just you know the single anchor on the nightly news is not the sole
source of truth anymore that's a really good thing uh and so you know it's a decentralizing

(01:17:38):
force essentially and i think it's very fascinating how like i mean just like the the fact that
politicians realize now that like it's harder to bullshit your way around things like you can still
do a lot of bullshitting on social media but where i think that things got really interesting this
election cycle was with Trump doing this podcast circuit where it's like, can you riff for like

(01:18:00):
two hours unscripted? Like, because it turns out a lot of politicians can't, and it becomes very
clear that they can't after like 10 minutes into an interview where it's like, oh, they've actually
like never had a real conversation before. Like it's always been, you know, like off notes. Like,

(01:18:21):
I don't know I didn't really have anywhere I was going with that just more so marveling at the fact
that like the vibe shift in the landscape is so real that podcasts like like the fear factor guy
was like a deciding force in in like people's perception of the current sitting president of
the United States like that's wild and like I loved fear factor so like you know go Joe Rogan

(01:18:44):
Wait, so I loved...
Wait.
I'm so sorry, guys.
Joe Rogan was the Fear Factor guy?
Yeah.
I didn't know this either.
What?
I'm sorry.
I don't feel like he was on my timeline.
Okay, is this like a weird man...
Okay.

(01:19:05):
You guys.
I'm not doing it.
I actually don't know much about his background.
I loved Fear Factor.
I remember the sheep eyeballs.
Like I watched Fear Factor.
But I did not know that Joe Rogan had anything to do with Fear Factor.
Joe Rogan was Fear Factor.

(01:19:29):
Wait, with the hair?
That's Joe Rogan?
Yeah.
Mads, you didn't know this either, right?
No, I didn't.
But I didn't follow Fear Factor as much.
It's too scary.
This is part of Joe Rogan's incredible trajectory here.

(01:19:50):
I'm kind of mind blown that neither of you guys knew this.
I'm not going to lie.
Well, I grew up very non...
Honestly, it was amazing that I was allowed to watch Fear Factor, period.
But I think it was like no sex nudity.
So, like, you know, got away with it.
I have to like reformat my hard drive now, knowing that Joe Rogan was Fear Factor guy.

(01:20:15):
So by the time you see me in June, June 25th, 24th for the party at the summit, I'll have digested this.
You'll have rewatched it all.
I mean, Joe Rogan was basically the original like eats the bugs guy, but he's like, I'll pay you at the end after you eat these bugs.
I just.

(01:20:35):
oh i like you're gonna go back and re-watch this now with like a whole new lens like that's kind
of beautiful like i i wish i could i wish i could be having this realization now you know
this is mind-blowing i i didn't i mean i expected to have a great time on this podcast i didn't
expect to like have one of my constructs burst and shatter and broken but also this is going to

(01:21:00):
be funny a lot of people will call me mads i know mads gets called mills as well now i mean we're not
in the same room but we're kind of it's proof that we are not the same person there you go and
now that we work at bpi in the office sometimes they call me mads too and they work with me
and i know i'm not ever in the office she's not in the office so this is gonna maybe this is gonna

(01:21:25):
like be a mind blowing, like they thought we were the same person the whole time.
There are people that will literally have a whole conversation with me that I know think
I'm mad.
And sometimes I let it happen.
And I'm sorry if anyone out there is watching.
I don't know.
But you both did have the same.
Neither of you knew that Joe Rogan was Fear Factor guy.
So now this is kind of throwing a wrench into your gears.

(01:21:48):
A little too similar.
It's crazy.
No, I also did not watch Fear Factor.
I knew of Fear Factor.
I didn't watch a ton of TV growing up either and, like, definitely did not watch Fear Factor because I'm afraid of bugs.
And that alone is, like, I don't want to sit through watching someone else's fear of bugs.

(01:22:09):
Not for me.
But, you know, so I am just – I'm more mind-blown that Mills was a watcher, a viewer of this and is this mind-blown.
um but I like the I was an adrenaline I would say I'm a recovering adrenaline junkie that like
I used to skateboard BMX like I feel like I guess daredevil but I love the adrenaline rush

(01:22:35):
and the like the fear factor I always thought I could crush it honestly I've like definitely think
I would have nailed it absolutely because I'm not really afraid of heights I don't really mind bugs
Like I don't like them and I'm not like excited about eating a scorpion or whatever, but like, I just knew I could do it.
It'd be a little weird if you were, if you're like, God, I can't stop eating these scorpions, man.

(01:22:57):
Delicious.
A little bit of sriracha on there.
Oh, it's good.
I mean, I have a scorpion in this bottle of mezcal that I bought in Mexico and I fully intend on like trying it.
Cause like, that's kind of funny.
Sorry, meds.
Just a little, just a little nibble.
No.
Yeah.
I got the opposite of, I'm like afraid of heights, afraid of bugs.
afraid of eating weird stuff a lot of things and then also on top of all that like my I was so

(01:23:24):
afraid of like things like I was afraid of getting hit by the ball and base in softball and soccer
so like I went with running you know like safest like just can run in a straight line and ideally
not have to worry about the the fear of getting like like hurt by something so definitely not a
fear factor person if if and mills and i yeah clearly where we're different we finally have

(01:23:49):
we have a divergent path yeah so if you're not sure if you're talking to mills or mads be like
how do you feel about heights or a scary thing and if it's pro then it's me and if it's anti
it's mad just hold up a scorpion be like thoughts you're hungry still there then it's mills but

(01:24:10):
they're not it was me and I'm long gone yeah but hopefully we do I mean I know we probably have to
wrap up but also um you know everyone that is at all interested the summit is a really cool
place to hear about what the current issues are and the discussions that are having I think this

(01:24:32):
is going to be a very historic installment of the policy summit in general and I think like if anyone
is interested it is going to be very different than a bitcoin conference where it's pretty much
the same thing spoken by the same people every time which i've been to like over 20 and at this

(01:24:53):
point i'm i'm exhausted i don't like sitting and listening but yeah we've got senator alumnus
hester pierce nick begich marshall blackburn jim justice warren davidson like we have such an
incredible range and variety of issues that are really currently important and relevant. And I

(01:25:15):
think this is going to be a pretty historical, if I do say so myself, I think this is going to be a
pretty historical one. I'm stoked for it because I haven't been to this kind of a Bitcoin event
before. So it's going to be an interesting change, but I'm excited to check it out.
And for anybody who's just in the audio, you can go to bdcpolicy.org or bdcpolicysummit.org if you want more information.

(01:25:45):
And I think anybody can apply to get tickets.
I think there is like you guys do review applications or something like that.
Okay.
Yeah, anyone can request a ticket.
Actually, Mads and I both have our discount code.
I think it's just Mills21 and Mads21.
And that would flag that you watched this show, unless Mads, you've been like, I just called you Mills.

(01:26:10):
I was called you Mills.
See, you do it yourself.
Wow.
Unless you've been using that code, I haven't been shilling that code personally.
I've yet to shill it.
So, yeah.
Favorite.
I'm just kidding.
Yeah, it's a competition now.
No, no, no.
Again, don't like competitions over here.

(01:26:30):
So that's another difference.
I have four brothers. I just grew up in competition. Here it is.
I also have four brothers, but that's not helpful. That one's not helpful.
Yeah, I know. That is one of our weird similarities.
This is getting ridiculous over here. Now I feel like you guys are doing a bit.
No, we're not.
Okay.

(01:26:51):
I promise.
Bye.
Yeah, but use either of our codes for 21% off of your ticket price.
And then if you use that code, we'll know that you are watching this.
So yeah, the applications get reviewed typically every day.
And there's a few different.
You can get just the summit day, and that includes admission to the pre-party on the 24th.

(01:27:15):
Or you can do the day on the Hill that Mads was talking about, where you can go talk to
congressman legislation.
You can be able to explain and discuss Bitcoin policy, but also just explaining Bitcoin to
elected officials which it's a pretty cool way i think it's if you're a nerd like me it's really
cool so i i can go in there and go to uh my my illinois senators and congress persons and uh

(01:27:45):
and just drop some bitcoin knowledge yeah they set up appointments with so yeah just put in your
request of Illinois people.
They, that like, we're working with a
org that will set up all those
appointments so that they'll be expecting
us and it's like 10 minutes. She'll
drop some knowledge.
Peace out. Can I go in there and just talk to them

(01:28:06):
about my podcast? Like, here's why
you should, no, I'm kidding.
No, I will be on my best behavior.
I won't say tit coin at all.
I promise. It'll be very,
very respectable.
But yeah, no, I'm so, so they
can use either mads or mills uh for the codes that's sweet that's 21 or mills 21 that's 21

(01:28:29):
mills i'll i'll throw them in the show notes to stop the like make it competition free they can
either and put a note that they saw us on your podcast um when they check out that way we'll know
we can just yeah we'll we'll just pull share yeah yeah i like it it's a it's a it's not a

(01:28:50):
competition it's a it's a cooperation yes it's it's we're the same person i'm just kidding there
we go oh god we'll go back to the same person you know either way this has gone too far this has
gone too far the simulation is is breaking well hey uh i want to thank you both for coming on
here i'm super stoked about this i'm going to be talking to a few other of the uh bpi fellows

(01:29:15):
such as yourself. And I don't mean fellows as not fellows, but fellows, just to clarify.
And just super stoked about everything you guys are doing. Because again, like,
I know both of you and kind of where you're both at and that neither of you are, you know,
statist shills. And it makes me very happy that a bunch of radical Bitcoiners are actively working

(01:29:37):
in the belly of the beast to try and make sure that our government doesn't do things that are
really, really stupid with regard to Bitcoin and people's ability to use it in a way that is
respected by the law. Because like, yeah, nobody needs permission to use Bitcoin, but also like
the government making it a pain in the ass to do any normal transactions with Bitcoin. Like,

(01:29:58):
nobody wants that. Like, let's stay as far away from that as we can. And so appreciate the work
y'all are doing. Anywhere else you want to send people, bdcpolicy.org, bdcpolicysummit.org.
I'll link both of your nosters since Milius you do not have an x anymore uh anywhere else you should
send people um send everyone to dc okay there you go and and yeah come to pizza day on the 22nd

(01:30:26):
if you're seeing this and you're in dc pizza day love it I wish I could come I myself enjoy pizza
what kind of pizza is it though is are we talking like thin crust it's gordon ramsay's street pizza
it's across from um like where our new office will be and we will have a satoshi special

(01:30:47):
of pepperoni pineapple and jalapeno but the main will be like margarita and it's good it's like
wood fired if there's any italians listening to this they're gonna be super pissed about the uh
the pineapple but no i we actually have an italian in our bitcoiner like community group in dc and

(01:31:08):
he's threatened to not come to the pizza day and i said it's you don't have to eat it i'm sorry that
this is offensive we've had multiple exchanges about it i think he's gonna still attend he does
love the community but we got we do have some some drama some crisis about it but it'll be it'll be a
good family-friendly pizza day celebration.

(01:31:31):
I love it.
Well, Mads, Mills, Mills, Mads, Mill Mads,
thank you both so much for joining.
Appreciate it.
And looking forward to seeing you both in DC.
Yes.
Thank you so much for having us.
Anytime.
All right.
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.

(01:31:59):
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening,
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast.

(01:32:23):
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links.
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(01:32:44):
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ORANGE PILLING WASHINGTON DC | Mads & Mills of Bitcoin Policy Institute

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