"SOUND PARENTING" IN A FIAT WORLD | George Mekhail - THE Bitcoin Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Do we want other people to be the primary influence in our kids' lives, or do we want

(00:05):
to be the primary influence?
If someone's going to indoctrinate my kids, it's going to be me.
Like, that's really what it comes down to.
I hate to put it that bluntly, but like, listen, everyone's indoctrinated by something.
So it's like, what do I want my kids to be influenced by primarily?
And the decision came down to, we want that to be us.
And so we pulled them out of elementary school, started homeschooling.

(00:27):
Anyone who can't homeschool, I would just encourage you to really consider it and take on the work, man.
Like, do the actual work because nothing easy is going to be worthwhile.
And if you're going to invest somewhere, this should be the one area where you're like, all right, cool, I'm down to put in the work.

(00:48):
It's easy to point to fiat and blame fiat on everything.
But I mean, I think it's true.
We've gotten soft.
parents just like don't take their role seriously they're too distracted chasing money because they
have to keep up with inflation and so they're they're less present with their with their kids
i think that's a huge part of it is just like it's easy to just check out as a parent nowadays and put

(01:09):
your kid in front of a you know a youtube show parenting is the lowest time preference thing you
can do if you really think about it you know if we're changing the world it's it's going to go
beyond us, right? It has to go into the next generation. And so really be thinking about
your level of intentionality with the next generation and your responsibility to raise

(01:30):
your kids with the level of intentionality that is required of you. It's not something that happens
accidentally. They're not going to fall into good habits. They're not going to fall into
being mature or having self-awareness. You have to do the work. This is where the ball is going.
This is where the world is going. Everything is going to be repriced in Bitcoin. Every company is
going to be a Bitcoin company. And it just, it feels like we're on our way to hyper Bitcoinization.

(01:53):
It feels like all the things that we've been dreaming up and we've been kind of planning for,
you know, all of like the game, we've talked about game theory for so long and now it's like
happening, it's playing out. And so it's exciting, man. I think I'm one of those people that believes
this time is different. You know, I think, I think when you have Bitcoin treasury companies
buying more Bitcoin, that's being, than is being mined, you know, quarter over quarter, that,

(02:16):
That gap is growing.
It's not going down.
They're buying exponentially more.
And so when you have a finite resource like Bitcoin, I just don't see us having an intense bear market like we have.
I think the four-year cycle thing is kind of over.

(02:46):
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(03:07):
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(03:29):
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and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else. Without further ado, let's get into this
Bitcoin talk.
I need to get,

(03:49):
I need to get back into Noster,
man.
It just fell off.
Dude,
it,
it's a lot of fun.
I'll be honest.
The vibes,
the vibes on Noster are,
are a lot better.
Like the,
the Bitcoin Twitter,
Bitcoin X vibes.
I've,
I've been a little weird lately,
I think.
And the vibes on Noster just,
just,
just feel good.

(04:09):
Like it,
I think because it's also, so Gigi, like, I don't know if you know this, but he like completely went off of X.
Wow.
Doesn't use it at all anymore.
Deleted his account.
And he's exclusively using Noster.
One of the things he talked about, he did a really great presentation on it.
It might have been at Baltic Honey Badger or somewhere else.
But basically this idea that like you wouldn't zap a car crash.

(04:34):
This idea that, you know, because you can send zaps to Noster, because you can send value on Noster,
people tend to give value to things that uh are are positive or or at least that show a proof of
work whatever generally things that are like good things is what you want to zap if you're sending
bitcoin something like you're not going to send bitcoin to a video of a car crash that's it's
horrible it's tragic that feels messed up to even do that right and so i thought that that's like such

(04:58):
a such a brilliant thing because it's like the attention algorithm on these centralized platforms
absolutely prioritizes that you know car crash clickbait like you know everybody stops to watch
a car crash but this idea that everybody may stop to watch it but you you don't zap that like you
don't give that value you might give that attention but you don't give that value and i just thought

(05:20):
that's like a kind of like blew my mind when he said that like you don't zap a car crash and it's
like wow okay that's actually insanely profound oh dude my feed on x is just like it's all that
it's all it's trash it's like fights it's it's become extremely racist too i'm like damn this is
like just everything is clickbait but yeah it's it's wild and i mean i think that this is also

(05:43):
just like most people aren't going to come over to noster and start using it until the pain gets
great enough on these other platforms where it's like i need to make a switch or the pain might be
censorship like it may it may be actual like you know totalitarian crackdowns i mean the uk is
looking weird right now man like i don't know what is going on over there but it's it is not good i

(06:07):
saw some like there's like like dozens of people getting arrested like on a like i think forget if
it was daily or weekly either way it's a large number for like social media posts for like
retweeting things and like that's just insane no apparently yes for even retweeting you can you can
get this and like i don't know i for a while i thought all that stuff like oh it must be overblown
like it must just be you know kind of like uh catastrophizing it you know again like people

(06:30):
doing it for clickbait right but from like talking to people in the uk it's like no no no this is
like a legitimate thing and it's super messed up and so it's i don't know it's it's sad to see
so how do you how do you balance both because you're on both right x and noster yeah yeah uh
so I,
I use,
I use two Noster clients.

(06:51):
I use Domus and I use Primal.
And then I also use Zap.Stream,
which we are streaming on right now.
And hello to anyone who is here live.
But I guess for me,
it's like,
it's actually,
I post my podcast stuff on both.
I have a podcast account for both.
And so that stuff I kind of put out.
It's like basically the same on,
on both Noster and on X,
just because it's like a workflow thing for me.

(07:12):
But on a personal level,
I,
I guess I post different sorts of content on Nostra than I do on X.
On X, honestly, I troll a lot more.
On Nostra, I don't feel the need to troll.
It's kind of like you, again, people aren't going to zap a car crash.
Right.
I mean, maybe if it's a really masterful troll,

(07:33):
but like it's a more open discussion, I think.
Right.
Because you don't have people that are going to algorithmically get fed
your inflammatory tweet as some sort of clickbait.
It's like people do less of that.
It's kind of interesting.
You have this open protocol for communication where people can say anything they want or any heinous things.

(07:55):
And, of course, some people are going to.
But, like, that just gets drowned out.
Nobody pays attention to that.
That doesn't get amplified because there's no incentive to amplify negativity like that.
So I think that incentive model is really, really amazing.
And honestly, like, go on Noster and just start talking about your book and parenting.
Like, you know, if like, that's not something you do as much on X, like you were talking

(08:16):
before this, like, Oh, I need to like self promote a little bit more.
Like that's always a hard thing.
It's a hard thing for, for me too.
Like no stir is a great place to do that.
Cause if you're just engaging honestly with people and being like, Hey, I really care
about parenting and this idea of sound parenting.
And this is what I'm here to talk about.
I think people will, uh, will vibe with that very well.
Okay.
No, that's good.
Yeah.

(08:36):
It's just been getting like the habit of it.
You know what I mean?
I have, I have both on my, on my phone as well, both those clients.
But it's just like the, I think just the addiction, frankly, like I'm addicted to X.
I hate to admit it.
Like I had to delete it off my phone for a little while because it's like the doom scrolling is just too much, bro.
Dude, it is.
I mean, it's, but it's literally like it's built for that.
It's built to keep you engaged and hooked.

(08:58):
And the weird thing is you find yourself like you spend, you know, a few minutes on there and you try to think back.
Like, what did I even start looking at?
Like, what have I just been doing?
Like for the last, like, I don't, I literally don't, can't remember what I was just doing, but I just feel more anxious now.
like i need to go walk outside i need to chill it's i i we really have no idea what the long-term

(09:18):
effects of just social media exposure are going to do to people i'm like feel bad for like they
you know the younger generations who basically were complete guinea pigs for it like social
media came around when i was already i mean my prefrontal cortex wasn't fully formed but it was
it was it was getting there like mine just finished forming like last year but like you know for these

(09:39):
kids that like they grew up with a smartphone in their hands i remember the first phone i had
was a motorola razor and i think i was 16 when i got it and i was like whoa that was cool man like
that was you know it was a razor like that it was sweet they were they were awesome they were so cool
but like you know well first of all okay welcome george it's awesome to have you here um we're

(10:01):
gonna we're gonna just go in a bunch of different directions today but maybe we just kind of start
out like on the parenting side a little bit because you are a father who has been in this
fatherhood game for longer than I have. I am very new to this. You've done it a couple of times over.
You've got kids that are in their late teens. Yeah, I don't want to be too specific just but.

(10:22):
No, early teens. A 15-year-old daughter and a 17-year-old son. So yeah, it's teenage years,
man, a whole new challenge. And I can't honestly, like my, my parenting sort of advice is definitely
not about teenagers. It's, it's more focused on kind of where I'm experienced, which is the younger
years. But yeah, it's been, it's been quite the journey and it's, it's been a lot of fun. It's

(10:45):
something I'm really passionate about. Like I was talking about with you earlier is like
watching the Bitcoin scene start to mature. We're getting older, right? It's like I got it in 2017
and there weren't a lot of kids in the space.
But now, you know, Bitcoiners growing up, starting to have kids, I saw a need.
And actually, so kind of where the story starts, I guess I'll just dive right in.

(11:08):
I started to bring my son Kingston to Bitcoin meetups when he was really young, probably
like 10 or 11.
And he always just loved it.
He always like vibed with the adults.
And it was cool because, you know, bringing my kids around Bitcoiners, I always felt comfortable.
Like these are the people who I want my kids to be like, you know what I mean?
And we homeschooled our kids.
And so there's always kind of that stigma with homeschoolers.

(11:30):
Like, are they going to be socialized or whatever?
And you meet my kids and it's like, that stigma is gone.
They're like, they know how to talk to adults.
You know, we're trained at a young age to shake hands, look people in the eye and kind of the basics.
And brought Kingston to Bitcoin 2021.
And he, you know, he got to see kind of Jack Mallers make the announcement about El Salvador.

(11:52):
And he was really struck by that.
It was a really influential moment.
Um, and that was actually the time period where I transitioned to working for BTC Inc.
Uh, I came on originally as a director of marketing.
That was my first, first role.
Got my foot in the door, got to leave my fiat job and get into, into Bitcoin full time.
And, um, from there I started bringing him to all the conferences and, and Bitcoin 2022,

(12:14):
you know, it was my first conference working there.
He was 13 at the time.
And I remember being like nervous.
I'm going to bring my son and I'm working.
So I was like, how much do I have to like babysit or like keep an eye on him?
And dude, he just, he just blew me away.
He kind of just made himself useful, dove right in, kind of picked up on what he learned at the meetups.

(12:35):
And, um, the staff really embraced him and we're pulling him in like 18 different directions.
Like just, Hey, this kid can actually help.
He can actually contribute value and, um, got, you know, a ton of compliments and was, you know, very proud as a, as a father, obviously.
But there was one conversation with one of my coworkers, Alan Helm, and his wife, Sid.

(12:55):
And they were like, dude, what did you do with this kid?
Like, can you please help us?
They were expecting at the time, like, can you like write a book or, you know, write your ideas down, what you and your wife did?
And I was like, hmm, I probably could do that, actually.
And so that was kind of the genesis.
That was originally what inspired me to write this book.
and sat down and just started kind of writing all of the things that we did as parents.

(13:21):
And the book is called I'm Not Your Bruh, 21 Keys to Sound Parenting.
You know, the thesis is right there in the title.
It's like we got to get back to sound parenting.
We got to get back to like the basics of you're a parent.
That's your child.
It's not your best friend.
You know, you don't treat them like they're one of your buddies.

(13:42):
We have to like regain authority.
And I think like this is really missing in society if you look at kind of some of the common like parenting habits.
And so, yeah, the book is very practical.
It's very – there's literally 21 chapters, 21 keys of here's kind of how to approach parenting.

(14:03):
I mean love that there are 21 keys as well.
Like a good Bitcoin pun is never amiss.
I'm curious what, like, do you think as a whole, because I think we've all, we've all experienced
that, like the, the cliche, which is a cliche for a reason of like the, you know, the, I'm a cool mom
or, you know, I'm a cool dad or whatever, like that exists for a reason. And like, you know,

(14:25):
like we've all known those kinds of, those kinds of people. Like, I mean, is this a, is this
something we, we trace back to fiat? Like is part of this an issue of, you know, both parents being
gone all the time, like during, during the day, like is that, or how do you look at this in terms
of like, how did we get here to where we are today? And why did this problem become so acute?

(14:51):
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think what you just touched on is definitely part of it. I mean,
it's easy to point to Fiat and blame Fiat on everything, but I mean, I think it's true. Like
it's just, we've, we've, we've gotten soft. Um, and we're in that kind of that loop of,
you know, the hard part, what's the meme, hard men create soft times. And we're,
we're in that it's like parents just like don't take their role seriously um they're too distracted

(15:15):
chasing uh money because they have to keep up with inflation and so they're they're less present
with their with their kids i think that's a a huge part of it is just like it's easy to
just check out as a parent nowadays and put your kid in front of a you know a youtube show and
not be intentional with with your role and your responsibility and just like
let your kid kind of exist, you know? Um, and so my, my whole thing is no, we got to be active.

(15:41):
We got to be present. We got to be, um, hands-on and teaching our kids how to be human. Uh, it
doesn't just happen accidentally. Like if you don't teach your kid how to, um, you know, again,
look an adult in the eye, shake their hand, you know, things like little things. And it really is
little, just very practical things when you're at a restaurant and you're ordering for your kid

(16:04):
Rather than, you know, training them, hey, you know, look the server in the eye and tell
them what you want.
That becomes a very useful thing in life.
Or just like introducing your kid, when your child is with you and you're in a conversation,
it's like, are you in the habit of being like, oh, by the way, this is my son.
And, you know, training them in that moment to shake a hand and look people in the eye

(16:27):
and be confident and say, you know, put your hand out, say like, my name is Kingston.
It's great to meet you.
These little things that are ignored or dismissed or not thought about, they don't just happen.
And so that's kind of what I try to instill is just like we got to go back to the basics.
We have to reclaim our authority.

(16:49):
You know, being the cool mom is a very temporary thing that when your kid grows up, they're not going to, you know, it's not going to work.
Like the better approach is to actually be present in your kid's life, to be helpful and useful.
and train them and coach them.
And then when they get older, and actually this is what I'm realizing,
it's funny because the book is called I'm Not Your Bruh,

(17:11):
but like my son who's 17 now has become like a really good friend
like in a lot of ways, right?
Like that's my buddy.
And it didn't start that way because, you know,
I understood my authority in his life and I understood that, you know,
I have a responsibility to train him to be his own individual person.
but it's cool now that I'm reaping the benefits of that

(17:37):
because we're very close.
I think that there's this idea that people have that,
well, I want to have what you have with Kingston, right?
I want to have my child be someone that I can feel like
I'm actually a friend with later in life.
So that must mean that I need to start just being their friend
earlier in life.
And it's kind of counterintuitive because it's like,

(17:58):
no, you have to be able to set boundaries.
like that you have to like you like you're you do no better as a parent i can be good like i mean
like i don't know about you but i was a dumbass like and i was a really good kid too but even i
like i was a very good kid and i was homeschooled as well uh but i was still a dumbass because i was
a kid like you know we do stupid stuff i think especially like especially boys obviously we've

(18:21):
got to start getting some testosterone just coursing through our veins and we're like yes
like let's go right but but so i but i think people like miss they don't understand that
that relationship can and should evolve it doesn't have to start from the the place that you want to
get to it should start from a place of you know of course love like that should you know like it
doesn't authority and love don't have to be mutually exclusive in fact they're they're

(18:43):
definitely not you were doing the things you're doing because you love your child like it's not
like and i think people just lose then i i wonder how much of it too is just like this i
the kind of the participation generation you know the participation ribbon sort of vibe of things
and just wanting to make sure everybody feels good and everybody feels you know safe and nobody

(19:04):
feels uncomfortable or they don't feel bad like a failure to realize that difficult and painful
moments are what shape you and make you better like not exclusively good moments can but like
you you learn often by by force not by choice like you get smart by force and so i think people have

(19:26):
i don't know there's this uh there's just a bit of a shift to where it's like
you know the dad is not in a place of authority um and if and if the mom's not in a place of
authority either then like nobody's in a place of authority you hear you know horror stories about
you know uh you know kids teens going crazy and everything and it's like man i don't know i think

(19:48):
it's uh traditional methods of parenting worked pretty well for a very very very long time and
like i remember growing up it's like we started to get into these like kind of participation
parenting style of things and i just don't think that was helpful for anyone like i learned a hell
of a lot more from you know a baseball game where we lost than from where we won right it's important

(20:11):
it's important to lose because then you realize what it takes to win you know it's important to
Lose and then not get a trophy ceremony after.
No, no, no.
Because you don't deserve one.
You lost.
You're a loser.
That's not a permanent state for you, but you were a loser today.
So what are you going to do differently?
How are you going to make yourself better?
Because otherwise you will be a loser.
You'll lose again.

(20:32):
But you don't have to be.
You can win.
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(20:53):
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(21:14):
But again, I always recommend that Bitcoiners check out Fountain.
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You also, of course, do not have to do any of those things.
Bitcoin does not care, but I sure do appreciate all of your support.
So thank you.
Yeah, and I think there's a section in the book about discipline.

(21:37):
That was probably the hardest to write, the most controversial.
I remember putting some of these ideas out that, you know, my wife and I started at a very young age.
We had kids young.
I was 22 and Kingston was born.
And, you know, it was shortly after we got married.
So it wasn't part of our plan to have kids that early.
But, you know, we had to figure it out because there's a child here now and we're parents.

(22:03):
And so we adopted a few mantras.
And, like, in our household, like, mantras are really big.
One of the things we talk about, words are really important.
The use of words with intentionality is very important.
But one of the things that was pretty controversial, pissed a lot of people off when I tweeted it, was obey first and then ask questions.

(22:24):
That's one of the things that we've always taught our kids.
And really what that comes down to is like if I give you instruction as a parent, you are to obey first.
And then if you have questions about sort of why that instruction was put out, then you can ask questions.
But it's after the fact.
It's not when I ask you to do something, it's not a why or like, you know, questioning or pushing back.

(22:47):
Like this isn't a democracy, right?
Like this is very much a dictatorship.
It's like even like little things like what we're eating for dinner.
Like I don't consult with my kids on that.
Like it's like here's what I'm doing for dinner and this is what you're going to eat.
And another mantra we have is whiners get nothing.
It's like, dude, if you whine about anything ever, I just – I'm not going to hear it.

(23:09):
And so it is being like hard in some ways and it is being direct and that's difficult for the trophy, the participation generation because in a lot of ways, that's not what we got.
If you're a millennial, it's like you kind of were raised in that sort of softness where you kind of – you got the trophy even if you lost and you were told you're a winner even when you weren't very talented in certain things.

(23:38):
And like that just wasn't helpful.
Another one is delayed obedience is disobedience, right?
It similar to obey first and ask questions But it like the countdown method is one that I criticize pretty harshly I like if you do the countdown method if you like three come on you better listen to me or it going to be really bad for you

(24:02):
Two, like a lot of parents do that.
And what you're teaching your kid is that it's okay for them to not listen to you right away, right?
And so one of the things we said is if you delay that obedience, you're actually disobeying.
And so the expectation is you do something the first time I ask you, I'm not going to count down.
And if you don't do it, there's going to be consequences.

(24:24):
I think that I remember hearing because we were on a like a Bitcoin parenting panel at the conference this past year, which was an awesome panel.
I remember you were discussing that with somebody backstage.
I hadn't heard that phrased that way before the countdown because that feels like that's just like something that like a lot of parents do.
um i'm not at that stage yet you know where my son like would understand like why i'm counting

(24:46):
he'd just like start counting with me and i'd be like oh that's this is fun we're playing a
counting game okay but like there was something you know it's interesting in this in this parenting
journey it's like so many of these things are only abstract concepts to you until you get there
yourself like until you get that we were talking about this just off off camera it's like you know
you you don't even realize little things like oh why why do people you know denominate their baby's

(25:09):
age in months for so long. Like it sounds ridiculous to say 20, you know, 21, 22 months
old or whatever, just, you know, say two years. And it's like, Oh, because those couple months
make a world of difference in your child's development. And, but you don't know that
until you're actually in it. And I think that's the case with, with a lot of things, like when
it comes to discipline, like when it comes to any of these things, you, you don't really,

(25:31):
really internalize what that means or the implications of it until you are in it in
the moment living it and it's no longer just abstract and theoretical it's not it's not
academic it's real life it's like this like what you do right now as a parent will make a difference
and i think that that's like again it's like you don't know until you know you don't know

(25:51):
like about how you're going to feel and how you're going to change as a man until that baby is there
and you're like holy shit what happens after i die uh what what i need like i need to i i thought
I had a low time preference before. I didn't. I didn't. It was all a lie. Now I need to buckle
down and work harder, but I also need to balance that with still being there and being present and

(26:13):
being a key figure. And like, and how do I do that? And like, shit, I'm just thinking about so
many more things than I ever was before. But while I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.
Right. Right. No, absolutely. I think it's easy again, to just like check out and coast and not
be present and your kids need you to be there.

(26:34):
You are the automatic authority figure whether you like it or not.
You know, your kids look up to you.
They want to be just like you, which is kind of terrifying if you think about it.
And it's funny, as I was writing this book, it challenged me, right, to think through
the level of intentionality that's required down to the littlest, stupidest things of

(26:56):
like, if you're, if my office is messy and I'm going to tell my child to clean their room,
I'm just a hypocrite. Right. And you know, that's, again, it's a very simple concept to think about,
but, um, a lot of like parent, like basic parenting really comes down to bettering yourself.
That's what I learned. Um, is, is that like, you know, be a better person, work on yourself.

(27:20):
And like, that's 90% of the battle. Um, cause your, your, your child is looking to you as an
example. And so they're going to mirror you. They're going to reflect who you are and who
you're becoming and how you're acting and how you're treating people and the words that you say
and how messy your room is. Like all of those things matter. And so it really does. It's funny.

(27:41):
Like I almost want to rewrite the book and just have it not be a parenting book and have it be
just like a, how to be a human book. Cause so much of it is just like practical application,
things that like we just, we should just do better and they'll, you know, they'll, they'll
be adopted by our children.
So, um, so yeah, that's, that's really the thesis.
It's like sound parenting, sound money.

(28:01):
They're, they're, they're back to the basics type, type of things, like strip away all
the bullshit and just go back to just being a better person showing up.
Um, but like, to your point, you don't really think about a lot of these things until you're
in it.
You know, my wife and I read a ton of parenting books and we had to learn, again, learn on
the fly.
And so I do think it's one of those things where it's like, I'm not like an expert in any way other than like, I've just been through it. And so I wrote down, you know, the practical things that we did that I think are helpful, the lessons that we learned along the way. And so I think it can be really useful if you're in that in that season of life.

(28:37):
how much do you think do you think about the nature versus nurture kind of debate at all
because it's something i think about like all the time and i it's wild how much to your point about
like oh they're your child is looking at you and they want to be just like you boy you realize that
real quick when they start either repeating everything you say or mimicking whatever action
you did and you're like oh my god i need to make sure i'm not being a complete piece of garbage like

(29:01):
you know like you really you do want to be better but i'm curious like where you stand on that how
much, I mean, it's obviously an interplay, right? Like it's not, it's not a binary there, but how
much of an interplay do you think it is? How much are they just, you know, some people are like,
well, what, you know, when they're born and like, that's just the person they're going to be. And
you can nudge them a little bit, but they're basically, that's who they are. Or, or do you

(29:23):
think, you know, the nurture does make a bigger difference? Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that
it is an interplay. It's not binary. Both are, both are definitely, um, factors, but I do think
that, you know, nurture does have an important role. If I had to quantify it, I'd probably say
it's 80-20, maybe 70-30. And in terms of like, what you what you actually do, what you instill

(29:48):
in your children, I always tell my kids that I want them to be better versions of me. And not like,
you need to be like me, but I'm just saying, the whole like, well, you did this when you were a kid,
Like that doesn't work because actually I want you to be better than me.
Like if you're looking at an example of like my life of something that I did where I fell short and you're using that as an excuse of like, well, you did that.

(30:12):
Well, guess what?
The goal isn't to be me.
The goal is to be better than me.
I think a lot about leadership too.
You know, I want my kids to be leaders.
One of the mantras that we use has been make good choices, be good leaders.
Make good choices, be good leaders.
Every time we left them somewhere, dropped them off at school or whatever, make a choice to be good leaders.

(30:34):
And I still actually use this one.
It's kind of funny.
And they're like, OK, dad, yeah, whatever.
But I think it's important to think about this, especially as Bitcoiners.
I believe that Bitcoiners are developing some of the best leaders in the world.
And I think that responsibility is on us to raise up leaders.
I think leadership is one of those things that's lost in our society.

(30:57):
There's not a lot of good leaders you can point to as examples in the world anymore, which is terrifying, right?
I'm talking about presidents and people who are in positions of leadership, industry leaders.
There's not a lot that you want to really emulate.
Effective leadership has become scarce.
And so I think that on the nurture side, let's just talk about us as Bitcoiners, this community.

(31:24):
It's on us to raise up the next generation of leaders.
And I think that's, that's critically important if we're going to be, you know, leading the world,
like we're trying to change the world. And I don't, I don't want to downplay that. I think
it's a, it's a really important thing for us to embrace and be real about, like,
if we're changing the world, if Bitcoin is going to be the global reserve currency, and, you know,

(31:47):
the people who, who have Bitcoin, right, it's the, what was the old thing is, those who have the gold,
He who has the gold makes the rules.
Now it's like he has the Bitcoin, makes the rules.
We're going to be running a lot of aspects of society.
This next generation is going to be in positions of authority and leadership, right?
That's what we hope for.

(32:08):
That's what we want to manifest.
That's what we want to instill in our children.
And so I want to nurture that.
I want to influence that as much as I can.
yeah i think that that's a it's something that is growing increasingly difficult in our society
when you have an education indoctrination system that is specifically made like the public school

(32:33):
system is not built to produce leaders it's built to produce followers that's that's explicitly what
it is right and there's a there's a whole rabbit hole there because it's like i know you know this
You homeschooled your kids.
Again, I was homeschooled myself.
I went to high school.
I made that decision.
My parents said, this is your choice to make, and you live with the consequences.

(32:53):
Go and do it if you want to.
I'm so grateful to my parents for homeschooling me.
And I grow increasingly grateful the older I get because the more I learn about it.
At that time, it just felt right, but I didn't fully appreciate the totality of it.
Wow.
And now it's like I go back, and I look, and I start researching these things,
And you find out it's like, oh, so wait, this compulsory public education was like, that's like a Prussian model that they use to basically produce good workers and good soldiers.

(33:24):
Okay, well, that's a little weird.
Oh, Germany still makes it illegal to homeschool your kids?
Why is that?
Where did that policy start?
It started with Adolf Hitler.
Really?
Oh, well, that's interesting.
Why would the Nazis not want you to homeschool?
That's so weird.
like huh i can't that just cooks my noodle you know and so but like it's sad that and obviously

(33:50):
maybe homeschooling is not for everyone either and it's not for everyone for the whole time that
your child is going through school i think your kids now have moved into like a we can maybe talk
about that a little bit moved into kind of like a hybrid model but i think that it is something
where you have to acknowledge like if you're going to send your kids to public school you have to
acknowledge that you, you can bring them through that in one piece and they can still be good

(34:10):
leaders. That is entirely on you as the parent, because the school system is not going to do that.
They will create little sheep out of them because that is what the school system is designed to do.
That doesn't mean every teacher is bad. It doesn't mean that every school is bad.
It means that overall the public school system, and this is not just in the U S but across the
world is designed after the neoprussian model and it is made to turn them into obedient little

(34:36):
worker bees and obedient little soldiers and so i i love that maybe if you can talk about kind of
how that changed for you guys homeschooling to like not homeschooling you know where what what
made that change for you guys and just kind of like how do you how do you view that in terms of
their early education versus their later education? Yeah. So definitely I'm a massive

(34:58):
advocate for homeschooling. I know it's not practical for everyone. I know it sounds difficult
because it is, it's a lot of work. You know, we've been fortunate enough where, you know,
I've been able to work. My wife stayed home and homeschooled the kids. And that was, you know,
her primary like responsibility. She did all the heavy lifting and she took it very seriously.

(35:20):
She took her role as teacher, but, you know, very seriously.
Our kids started in public schools in elementary.
And we just, you know, started noticing that exactly what you're talking about.
It's like, do we want other people to be the primary influence in our kids' lives?
Or do we want to be the primary influence?

(35:42):
If someone's going to indoctrinate my kids, it's going to be me.
Like, that's really what it comes down to.
I hate to put it that bluntly, but like, listen, everyone's indoctrinated by something.
So it's like, what do I want my kids to be influenced by primarily?
And the decision came down to, we want that to be us.
And so we pulled them out of elementary school, started homeschooling.

(36:03):
Actually, we started homeschooling right before COVID, right before it became cool and everyone started doing it.
But at the time, it was like, it was a pretty common sense kind of a decision for us.
We had the opportunity.
We had the means to do it.
And so it was a pretty easy decision from that standpoint.
And yeah, we've homeschooled our kids all the way through.

(36:26):
Kingston stayed homeschooled.
He actually just graduated.
He's 17.
He graduated a year early.
He was homeschooled, you know, all the way up through high school.
Saxon, our daughter, when she got into high school, she, you know, approached us and said,
I'm interested in going to – getting kind of a high school experience is the way she framed it.

(36:48):
And so we found a local private Christian school that she's now attending.
And she's 15, but she's got the mind of an adult already.
And I credit a lot of that to homeschooling and her being around us, frankly.
And so, you know, the way she approached us even was very mature and, you know, very like, here's kind of how I'm thinking about it.

(37:13):
And so we were like, all right, cool.
If that's what you want to do, you can't really force your kids at that age to do something they don't want to do.
Then you just kind of – they start to resent you and all that kind of stuff.
So, you know, we made the decision and she's now doing that.
And it's been great.
It's been a solid shift.
I think everything she's learned in homeschool, she's taken with her.

(37:34):
And, um, and so that's, that's been a little bit of a shift, but, uh, I, again, anyone who
can't homeschool, I would just encourage you to, to really consider it and, um, take,
take on the, um, take on the work, man.
Like, like do, do the actual work because nothing easy is going to be worthwhile.

(37:55):
And, um, if you're going to invest somewhere, it's like, this should be the one area where
like, all right, cool. I'm down to, to put in the work. Yeah. I mean, it is undeniably a lot of work.
I am so grateful to my parents for doing it again. That's as you, I think as you become a parent,
you appreciate so many more things about what your parents did that you maybe didn't fully,
didn't fully grasp at the time. And you realize, Oh wow. You know, you're like, you, you've made

(38:18):
this sacrifice or that's like, wow. You know, I tell my parents, thank you a lot more now at this
stage of my life. Let's just say that. And I'm so grateful for them. And you know, the, the
homeschooling piece, I think it's just, it's sad that more folks, I think, view it as something
that's out of their reach for a couple of reasons. And I think there's a couple of reasons for that.
One of the reasons is they feel like, okay, well, I'm not equipped to home. I'm not a,

(38:41):
I'm not a professional teacher. And I've been told that to teach kids, you need to be a
professional teacher and go and, you know, go to, you know, university for this and do all these
things. And it's like, my, my, my mom was not guys. She was a, she was an English major. Um,
And she did not have any teaching experience whatsoever.
And I turned out, I mean, I'm a little bit, you know, the wackadoodle and conspiracy theorist and everything.

(39:04):
But I turned out pretty well overall.
Not to toot my own horn.
I'll toot my mother's though because she's responsible for it.
But, you know, like they feel that, oh, I just, I don't know how to do it.
It's like, if my mom can do it in like the nineties and early two thousands, I promise
you can do it now because you have literally everything available to you online, like for

(39:26):
free.
Yeah.
She would get like, you know, curriculums, you know, like for guidelines, like, you know,
ordered in the mail sent to us.
Like this was a different time.
You have so many options available to you.
You can, there's all sorts of cool stuff with AI tutors now too.
Like to be able to work through specific subject matter, like you might not be great at math.
That's okay.
Like my mom wasn't either.
I just had to read my Saxon math book cover to cover.

(39:48):
But like you can get a cool AI tutor.
I also had a Mennonite woman named Edith who tutored me in algebra for a while.
That was actually, she was pretty cool.
She was pretty cool.
Dude, Saxon math is still a thing.
That's what I think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But dude, also the bar is so low.
I mean, if you think about what public education is like providing in terms of actual education.

(40:10):
Yeah, the bar is incredibly low.
It's funny.
one of the things that, you know, Saxon, when she approached us that she kind of alluded
to, and we, you know, we have a great relationship with our kids.
They talk to us about everything that, you know, they share pretty openly.
One of the things she pointed, she was like, homeschooling is hard.
Like mom is like, she makes it hard.
And I was kind of proud of that.

(40:30):
I was like, okay, good.
Like it should be, it should be hard.
Like school, if you want your kids to actually be trained in how to, again, how to be a human
and how to, how to learn, right?
It's not, this is the thing that you don't learn at public school.
They don't teach you how to learn, right?
They just throw shit at you and like expect you to memorize facts and, you know, and by

(40:52):
the way, their version of the facts, right?
And so it's like what we instilled in our kids was here's how to learn.
And we would use phrases like even when we're going through the curriculum, you know, that
we bought or whatever, it isn't here's what happened in 19, whatever.
It's here's what this book says happened.

(41:14):
This is one version of history.
By the way, there's other viewpoints on this that are interesting.
And so that's really the key.
It's like you don't want your kids just to memorize a bunch of facts that they were told that this is the way that it is that you may or may not agree with, by the way, if you're sending them off to a public school and someone else is telling them, here's what happened in this version of history.

(41:38):
you get to teach your kids no this is how you learn and this is one version of the way the
story is told and it's it's especially important when it comes to history in my opinion i think
history is one of those subjects where it's just like we're we're told you know here's the way
it happened and don't question it ever and you know what i mean and it's just like that's not

(41:59):
how things work at all no uh just jumping off on you mentioned just about the rigor like you know
homeschooling is hard. It's funny.
The primary reason I wanted to go to public school that I told my parents I
wanted to do that was because I was pretty convinced. I was like, I'm,
what if I'm an idiot? Like, what if I like, you know,
and we do something like, you know,

(42:20):
like you have to do something like still like standardized testing and stuff
like that as a part of like being homeschooled. But I was just like, man,
I was looking around, you know,
and I had like plenty of friends and everything's that did a bunch of sports.
I was involved in a bunch of different community activities. You know,
the, this idea of like this freakish homeschool recluse,
Like it didn't exist.
I knew a lot of other homeschooled kids too, you know, and like, wasn't the case.

(42:41):
And, but I was worried because I was like, I see my friends who go to public school and
they do hours of homework every night after they've been in school for eight plus hours.
And then they come home and they do more homework.
Like, my God, they must be so far ahead of me.
They must be just crazy far ahead of me.
So like, I just, I need to go test myself.

(43:01):
I need to go test my mettle and see, you know, make sure I'm not an idiot.
Maybe I am.
And then I need to work hard.
Okay.
And then I get to public school and, you know, you're laughing because you know what happens next.
I was like, oh, my God, this is so easy.
Like, this is stupidly easy.
This is, like, honestly, embarrassingly so.

(43:23):
I found one of the biggest shocks to me was I, like I mentioned, I would do every problem in my Saxon math book.
I would never skip a problem, never skip a chapter, front to back, reading these myself.
And then I had my nice Mennonite tutor who would come in and help me out with concepts I didn't understand.
And kind of helped found like a little small charter school with like 10 or 15 kids in our area as well.

(43:45):
And I got to public school and I found out they were like, okay, we're going to be skipping this chapter here.
And we're just going to be doing odds today or evens today of the problems.
I'm like, you guys aren't doing all of them.
and then i remember the first time i found out that all the answers were in the back of the book
like because i just hadn't like looked and like someone was like well why don't you just look in
bob i'm like bob who's bob like back of book like you just i was like what's going on no one's

(44:09):
learning anything and you also realize like you know i was the kid who was like very eager raising
my hand because i like especially like in math and everything i was like i didn't know all the
answers to this so the teacher's asking nobody's raising their hand well i'm gonna raise mine
And you start to realize that like that sort of behavior gets,
gets socially punished as well. That gets,
that gets you looked down on as the, you know,

(44:31):
the know it all or whatever it might be. So, I mean,
I ended up graduating valedictorian. My school was not, not huge,
but I graduated, you know, number one.
And so I was confirmed not to be an idiot or maybe still am an idiot,
but the bar was so damn low, but I was just, I was blown away.
I was blown away at the lack of rigor. And there were some, I had,

(44:51):
I did have some really great teachers who I'm from a small town and I was like,
I don't know what business you have being here, but I'm really glad you are.
Like you're a very bright spot in this. Um, really,
I think a lot of teachers are there because they truly care about kids.
Like they really, really, truly care about kids.
They are handicapped by a system of administrative bureaucrats.
Like if you look one of those, uh, uh,

(45:12):
what the fuck happened in 1971 graphs that they've got on that site.
It's like number of school administrators versus number of teachers versus
number of students and it's like teachers and students is basically like the same but administrators
just goes through their sets all of your counselors and you know all of the different bureaucratic
bureaucratic layers they don't do anything for actual education they don't actually help the

(45:36):
kids it doesn't increase the teacher to student ratio at all they're just there to you know
basically create problems for the teachers so that the teachers have to jump through even more hoops
when they're just trying to get through their day and teach your kids.
It's like – it's crazy.
I'll have to find that graph and send it to you because it's one of those shocking things where you're like,
well, look, here's the problem.
And it happened – it kind of started around 1971 to see this divergence.

(46:00):
I'm not trying to say Fiat ruins everything, but boy, it really seems to ruin most things.
Wow.
That's fascinating.
Yeah, I think also too, one thing people don't realize, this is just kind of like on a really practical level.
Like you mentioned, a lot of people think that homeschooling is out of reach.
It's amazing, not just the resources and technology, but dude, the state will sometimes give you money to homeschool.

(46:23):
I mean, depending on what state you're in.
So I've lived, we homeschooled in, we lived in California and now we live in Arizona.
Both states, I can't believe this about California actually, give you money.
They will literally write you a check for things like curriculum and whatever you need for school.
And I think that's actually pretty prevalent in most states.
So depending on where you live, like Arizona gives you like six grand a year per kid that, you know, it's not cash in your bank account, but it's money that you can use to buy like a MacBook for their education, you know.

(46:56):
And so that little those little things do help, you know, if again, if you feel like it's out of your reach.
So don't just like dismiss it out of pocket and be like, no, that's not that's not for me.
I could never like, you know, give yourself some credit, you know, be a leader and, and, you know,
try to make it happen and look into the resources. Yeah. I think the other, the other piece of it

(47:17):
feeling out of reach for a lot of people is both parents are working because both parents are,
are forced to be working because we are on a Fiat hamster mill treadmill and you, you need to do
that. So you're, you, you spend, you know, both parents spend their whole days working,
outsourcing the care of their kids to the state.

(47:39):
Yeah.
And it like that that can be what you want Like you you don most people like if given the choice like should one parent stay home and like like let be honest like usually the mother cause they are more naturally caregiving and nurturing Like this this is just a fact folks
And anyone who has a mother or knows women knows this. So like this shouldn't be controversial,

(48:03):
but like we have gotten so far away from that to now it's the point where it's like, Oh,
both parents are working and but most of one parent's salary is going to pay for the you know
expensive inner city preschool because they or inner city you know elementary school private
school because you know they can't send them to the public one because like in chicago for example
it's just complete garbage like the literacy rates are like insanely embarrassingly low

(48:28):
and so it's like you're spending all your time working to pay for somebody else to raise your kid
yeah in what world does that make sense well in the fiat world it makes sense right because that's
just how it has to be done. We need more, we need more tax slaves, you know, like ever more tax
slaves. That's the, that's the only answer, right? Oh man. Yeah. That one's heartbreaking. Cause you
know, it's, it's hard, it's really hard to tell someone who's, you know, has two parents that are

(48:52):
working that, you know, one of them should consider quitting their, their job or stopping
their career to do this. But I mean, what else do you say other than like, you should, you should
really consider it, you know, like figure out a way to make it work, figure out a way. And
I agree with you, like practically and sort of like throughout history, it's been the mom that stays home and takes care of the kids.

(49:15):
Like it's just kind of how the world has worked.
And if we're talking about going back to the basics and going back to, you know, sound parenting, that's what my encouragement would be if you can find a way to do that.
So, yeah, I mean, I think we're selling homeschooling pretty hard here, Walker.
And hopefully people get the message.
But like, I think this message is needed.

(49:36):
Like people don't talk about this because it's controversial.
It's hard.
It's hard to say these things.
And people push back because, you know, it's hard to afford life right now, you know, and it feels like we don't have two jobs.
Like, how am I going to pay the rent and how am I going to put food on the table and all that kind of stuff?
But you'll find a way just like in the same way that like when you became a parent and all of a sudden your instincts came, you know, kicked in and you just figured it out how to how to care for a child.

(50:03):
I think this is, it's kind of similar in some ways.
Like you'll figure out where to cut costs.
You'll figure out how to adjust your lifestyle to, to make this work, but it won't happen
if you don't make it a priority.
And if you don't think that it's important and if you think that, oh, they'll be fine,
that kind of a thing.
Like this kind of comes back to intentionality.
Like you have to make a decision that you are the best person to be in your kid's life

(50:27):
and be the influence and be the role model and be the teacher.
Like actually be the person that teaches them.
I think we're kind of – we're born in this world and we have all these assumptions.
One of those assumptions is that sending your kid to public school is what people do because most people, that is what they do.
And it is in a lot of ways the easier choice.

(50:48):
But if we're thinking sort of as Bitcoiners, if we're thinking from first principles, like we have to question this.
It's like this isn't the automatic thing that like we've done throughout history.
And we should question why most people do this and if it's actually right for you as somebody who thinks differently.

(51:08):
Like if you're listening to this podcast, you probably are a Bitcoiner.
You probably think differently about the world.
And this is one of those areas that I think you should be challenged to think differently and make some maybe uncomfortable decisions.
Well, I think the other – I couldn't agree more with you first of all.
And I think another thing that people really aren't grokking yet is that the current public school convention is really not prepared for the post-AI world.

(51:36):
Like it's really – it's just not.
Like rote memorization was never that helpful, like except in certain cases it can be.
But like generally just as that being the gold standard of public education, let's just have them memorize stuff and take this test.
And that, you know, that's how we'll make them, you know, better little worker bees that are great at following instructions.

(51:57):
But like in the, in the post AI world, you need to radically rethink what education should look like.
And like to the earlier point of me being blown away when I found, you know, I was like, my friends are in school all day long.
And then they come home and they do more homework.
I would do all of my work within like two to three hours in the morning.

(52:17):
Wake up, you know, wake up, wake up early at the crack of dawn, do all of my work.
can I be done by like 9am, 10am after putting in a few hours?
I would go play outside or go do random things where my mom would,
one day she sent me off to a practicing blacksmith's house.
And, and she, it's just something like random dude, super cool guy.
I was like still a blacksmith. And, and he,

(52:37):
so the first one who taught me about the Fibonacci sequence and how,
like how that informs his work and all these things. And like,
and then show me the practical application of that in, you know,
in smithing. And I was like, that was really cool.
Like I'll never forget that day. And that's the thing.
Bitcoin gives you more control over your time, right?
And I think one of the best things that you can do for your child is to give them more time,

(53:01):
more time that they're not just sitting in a chair, having their butts planted
and being told to walk in a straight line on the hallway to cater to the lowest common denominator of student.
And I'm sorry, but if you're listening to this, you at least have a few brain cells to rub together
and hopefully your kids will not be the lowest common denominator.
But all – what you have to understand is that all of the public school system, all – so much of so many of our systems, but let's focus on public school.

(53:28):
All of the public school system is built around catering to the lowest common denominator.
It's like – it just is.
And so if you – like your child will revert to that.
Like they will revert towards that.
They are not going to be, they're not going to get better than, than they, or, you know, better than they could be because the system isn't built for that. It's built to keep everybody basically in line and it has to be just easy enough and just pleasant enough that it caters to the people who are at the very, very bottom. So they don't get left behind.

(53:58):
and maybe that's what you want for your kid but i kind of doubt it like i kind of doubt it like
most most parents who give a shit about their kids wouldn't and so it's like yeah i would i
would highly encourage people like as somebody who was homeschooled as somebody who's you know
we are going to homeschool our son like you know at least give it a shot like yeah i love your point

(54:21):
i love your point about time i think it's a really important thing it's not just it's the
flexibility of time too. It's like the opportunity to bring Kingston to every conference, you know,
since I've worked there, that wouldn't have happened if he was in public school, right?
Like the flexibility to be like, oh yeah, we're going to go on a, you know, four day trip to
Miami and he's going to come with me. I don't have to worry about, you know, getting whatever

(54:46):
dismissed from school and getting like a excused absence or whatever. It's like, no, I just talked
to my wife and like, what better classroom than a Bitcoin conference for him to be at, right?
And that's, I mean, I think it's paid dividends.
I think it's, you want to talk about socialization.
You want to talk about just education on the fly.

(55:06):
It's like your version of going to a blacksmith's house is going to a Bitcoin conference.
And so having that flexibility of time and just like being able to get up and go on a
vacation or, you know, whatever it is, like that's also a huge benefit of homeschooling.
You don't have to mess with like, oh no, you know, we can't do this because they got school

(55:27):
or they got a test next week or whatever, like you make the rules, like you take control of your
time back. And it's such a huge advantage, um, for, for your kids and just for your lifestyle,
like reclaim that, you know, you're, you become a prisoner to that, that, uh, that school schedule
that is very oppressive. Um, and, and so I think that's a huge benefit that isn't,

(55:48):
isn't talked about a lot. Um, you know, and to your point about AI, like, dude, absolutely.
This is kind of a terrifying one.
But like if you think about AI in public schools too, you know, just like to kind of flip the conversation a little bit.
It's like it makes the public school system so much more useful knowing that, you know, ChadGBT exists or useless, I should say.

(56:14):
Knowing ChadGBT exists, it's like I'm just going to plug my homework into that and it's just going to do my homework for me.
So it's like it kind of exposes how useless public school is because everything can be done by child-eating.
Okay, so it's now what?
Now what is education, right?
It was already done when you got the answers in the back of your book.
Now you can just have a robot do your thing.

(56:35):
It's just like, okay, that covers every other subject.
And so it goes back to flexibility.
Like having the flexibility to adapt and to figure out, okay, what does this mean?
How do I teach my kid to integrate this new technology that's not going anywhere and be able to make that adjustment on the fly?
Meanwhile, the public school structure and infrastructure is so far behind.

(56:59):
It's like there is no way it's going to pivot anytime soon.
It's already trying to catch up to the internet, right?
It still hasn't even caught up to what's happening with the world of the internet existing, let alone AI existing.
And so that flexibility is invaluable to be able to say, okay, this exists.
How do I incorporate this?

(57:21):
And technology in general, I mean, that was another – discipline was probably the hardest section to write.
The technology section was probably the second hardest.
But how do you teach your kid to have a cell phone responsibly?
What are you teaching them about taking photos or being in photos or their online identity?
Like, uh, these are all very practical or even just like, um, uh, manners, you know,

(57:45):
manners with, with phones.
Like one of the things that we have in our home is, uh, is like very practical.
No, no screens at the table.
We don't allow any, you know, whatever, uh, devices or whatever.
Like you're not going to be sitting at a restaurant on an iPad ever.
That's not a thing.
Um, and you're not going to be pulling out your phone and, you know, checking your texts

(58:06):
while we're sitting at the dinner table eating.
and by the way you should be sitting at the dinner table and eating with your children like
it's like a very uh back to basics type of thing but so much so much uh parenting happens at the
dinner table it's it's it's ridiculous and so um not having devices not having the distraction of

(58:27):
that is like creating a sacred space where you're communicating with your children and you're
actually having conversations um and protecting that space and saying like you know we're not
going to be interrupted by anything that's outside of what's happening right here as we share a meal.
I think it's a really important thing. So kind of off on a tangent in 18 different directions,

(58:47):
but I think it's all kind of connected. No, it's a safe space for tangents. I'm curious too,
because your kids are now getting to this age. How are you guys looking at college? Like,
is this something that they're planning to do? Are they going more of a trade school route?
How have you guys been thinking about that or talking to your kids about it?
yeah so um so Kingston's already decided he's not going to college he's like that's not for me um

(59:12):
and you know he's he's 17 years old trying to really start his career and and he's been applying
for he's already here he works at Chick-fil-a he had like an internship actually at strike
um because he met Jack Mallers at a conference and Jack was very impressed with him and he's like
when you're old enough we're we're gonna get you on the team and you know he was a man of his word

(59:32):
and got him on the team.
So he spent some time on strike,
spent some time with BTC Inc.
actually as an intern too.
So he's already got like some experience
in the workforce
and he's actively interviewing
and looking for a job.
Saxon, she's a sophomore in high school now
and it's an open question.

(59:54):
It's one that we're holding very open-handedly.
I would say my wife and I
come from different sides of this.
She went to college.
I did not.
And so we have opinions and we share our opinions very openly.
And Saxon ultimately is going to make a decision.
I'm actually still pretty curious on what she's going to decide because, you know, I

(01:00:15):
kind of see it going either direction for her.
So, yeah, it's one that is an active conversation in our household.
It's such a tough one because, you know, and obviously my son is a lot younger, you
know, under two years old.
So like Carl and I talk about this all the time, like what is, what is college?
What is the university system going to look like in, you know, 16 years when, you know,

(01:00:40):
he'd be the typical age of, of, you know, going to college.
Like what is that even going to be like?
Is it, is it going to exist in the same way?
Is it, you know, is the price of it going to continue rising with inflation or is it
going to be start to be, you know, repriced to its utility value instead of its credentialed
fiat value?
Because that's a, you know, a huge issue, right?
Like Carl, also Carl and I met in school.

(01:01:02):
Like we met like the first week of college.
So like, you know, it has some benefits.
You know, I don't use a lot of what I learned there in school, in the classroom, but I wouldn't be where I am today.
I wouldn't have my wife and our son without it.
It's not to say you can't, you know, meet somebody outside of college too, but like, you know, it's a, was it Mark Twain who said, you know, never let school interfere with your education.

(01:01:25):
So, you know, it's, it's a tough question.
I think a lot of people are struggling with it.
I'm kind of glad I don't have to worry about it for at least a little while yet.
I have a little bit of time to see how the dust settles and see what the collegiate education system looks like.
Because honestly, I have no idea how it's going to look in 10, 15, 20 years.
I struggle to figure out what that's going to be.

(01:01:49):
Yeah, no, totally.
I mean, you raise a good point.
One thing as your kids get older, you start thinking about more is who their potential mates are going to be, you know, and then the environments that they're in kind of dictates that.
So it's like if they're if if they are going to college, like what college is it?

(01:02:09):
And are they going to be around people that make good suitors?
This is a tough one.
This one, you know, this is the current struggle with teenagers is like, you know, I don't.
like Tinder and all that shit. Like, uh, man, I just,
it's stressful as a parent because the, the dating pool is not great, you know?

(01:02:29):
Um, and, and so I think this goes back to wanting to surround my kids by, uh,
with Bitcoiners because that would be the, that would be the dream, right?
Like, is this like almost like a pseudo, like arranged marriage?
Like anyone out there have like a 15, 16 year old, let's talk, you know,
I think, uh, I know it sounds crazy, but I'm just like, I want to be very intentional about every,

(01:02:54):
every part of this. And it's not like a matter of like literally like a range marriage, like
forcing my kids into anything, but it's literally just putting them in environments where
there's a high likelihood that they're going to meet somebody that is going to be a good match.
Right. I just believe in that. I just, I just think like, I have a very specific list of criteria.
I tell my daughter, I'm like, listen, don't bring home anybody that's like vaccinated.

(01:03:19):
First of all, sorry, that's just a high bar.
Bring home someone from a good family, somebody who, you know, is thinking about their future and has like career aspirations, somebody who works hard.
And it's a lot of things that like Bitcoiners are.

(01:03:39):
And so that would be great.
That would be ideal.
obviously i'm not telling her you need to bring home a bitcoiner but uh just hinting at it yeah
totally so um yeah the the spectrum of like arranged marriage and and to tinder is great
is a crazy wide spectrum right and i am like let's find something in the maybe in the middle

(01:04:00):
maybe we can find you know something yeah more traditional it's it's crazy because like i mean i
was i never like used the dating apps because it was just like that was like after kind of you know
by my time right like i mean yeah they existed but like you know when uh you know like when i was in
college even but like they weren't to the extent they are today and i feel like that's like it used

(01:04:22):
to be have you seen the the chart uh it's the visualization basically showing the breakdown of
where people met or how they met their their spouse over time and it's like it used to be like
you know like church you know neighborhood uh community event like that kind of thing like
all very physical uh kind of local type things and it starts to change and it you know goes to

(01:04:44):
like workplace and and uh you know workplace comes in there because you know more women are
entering the workplace and then it comes to university as well and that starts you know
taking up a larger part of it and you know so school takes up a bigger part of it and then it's
like you know more recent like since dating apps it's like that one just starts out stripping like
everything else it just it's kind of wild because it's like it's it's this very like

(01:05:05):
it's this very fiat selection you know it's like literally instant gratification i mean it's it's
swiping right like it's you know just looking looking for the the next best thing and always
wondering well did i did i find the best option that i could and i think that that like that
ultimately like just doesn't work super well and not that like and i know plenty of people who met

(01:05:27):
through dating apps happily married having kids that's fantastic i'm could not be happier for him
but like, I mean, I guess we'll see like in the next 20 years,
if divorce rates start to go down,
cause dating apps turns out really fixed the problem or if they continue going
up, like we'll see. But I don't know. I, I, I,
I don't envy your position right now. Like I'm glad,

(01:05:50):
I'm glad my son is still, still, still very little.
It has a long way to go before that. Cause yeah. It's,
it sounds rough as a dad. Oh man. Yeah. That's my next big challenge. So,
uh yeah keep me in your prayers
well you know okay there's we we have we have hit on the the parenting stuff uh a lot and we we had

(01:06:12):
some other stuff to get into as well but honestly this has been just a a fantastic conversation
around parenting uh so i i i hate to to cut it at all but like are you down to get into some other
stuff too i mean we've we've done a pretty good job during the parenting side of things is there
anything else you want to leave folks with on the parenting side before we maybe just kind of,
we get into some more like it's more Bitcoin stuff. Not that parenting isn't actually what's

(01:06:36):
more Bitcoin than parenting. Right. Uh, but you know what I mean? No, definitely. I mean,
I actually believe that parenting is the lowest time preference thing you can do.
If you really think about it, you know, if we're changing the world, it's, uh, it's,
it's going to be go beyond us, right. It's, it's going to, it has to go into the next generation.
And so I guess the last thing is just like really be thinking about your level of intentionality with the next generation and your responsibility to raise your kids with a level of intentionality that is required of you.

(01:07:10):
It's not something that happens accidentally.
They're not going to fall into good habits.
They're not going to fall into being mature or having self-awareness.
You have to do the work.
And so, yeah, again, I'm not very good at promoting my book.
I need to get better because it's something I really believe in.
I love this book.
You know, I feel like it's helpful.
Everyone who's who's who's read it has had really, really good things to say about it.

(01:07:33):
So I do.
I need to be more confident in saying, like, you know, check it out.
It's on Amazon.
It's on Bitcoin magazine store.
And we'd love your thoughts.
And honestly, we'd love to talk about it more.
I think we need to find more more opportunities to have this conversation.
and so yeah appreciate you giving me the the opportunity to share dude for sure yeah everyone
should i still need to order it uh you know uh full disclosure so i'm super like especially after

(01:07:58):
this conversation i'm super stoked to dig into it i am not your bruh and yeah you know maybe we start
that bitcoin dad's podcast uh who knows we just had a bunch of people in the in the comments on
zap.stream uh just saying you know like i want one one guy just uh just did their first day of
homeschooling today, which is awesome. I've got another father of five, a bunch of, a bunch of

(01:08:20):
dads here in the chat. So like, I think it may be a, it may be a niche, maybe a niche for now,
but I think that like, as Bitcoin devours the world, you know, hopefully we get more and more
Bitcoin dads as well. And Bitcoin moms, like turns out you need both. I love it. Wild. Who
could have seen that coming, but okay. So let's, we'll shift gears a little bit. Again, everyone

(01:08:43):
should go check out the book. But you, so you have this side, right? You have your dad's side.
Then you also have your, you know, one of the same, two sides of the same coin, but you work
in the Bitcoin industry. You have now for a number of years. You are now working with Bitcoin for
corporations. Let's start with that a little bit. So are you still at BDC Inc as well as that, or

(01:09:05):
is it part of it? I'm actually, I wasn't clear on that. Okay. Yeah. So Bitcoin of corporations
started about a year ago. I partnered with Sharish at MicroStrategy at the time. We came up
with this concept of like, look, there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be following
the Michael Saylor playbook. So we created this initiative as a partnership between BGC Inc. and

(01:09:26):
Strategy. And so Bitcoin for Corporations is a network of these Bitcoin treasury companies.
We're now up to about 40 members. So it's been growing at a ridiculous rate. So originally,
it was a product of Bitcoin Magazine. So it was just one of the things that Bitcoin Magazine did.
At the time, I was managing director of Bitcoin Magazine. So I was leading our entire media

(01:09:48):
operation. And Bitcoin of Corporations was this, you know, this thing that I started,
I was really proud of, that was just kind of one of the things that we did. And as it grew,
we decided that, you know, we're going to spin it out to be its own division within the company.
So now, BTC Inc., you know, it's the parent company of Bitcoin Magazine,
the Bitcoin conference, UTXO, and then Bitcoin for corporations are kind of the four business

(01:10:12):
lines. And so when we spun it out, you know, I had to make a decision, like, am I going to,
you know, go lead this, this thing that I, that I started, or are we going to hire a director to
kind of take over? So I made the decision that, you know, I wanted to, I wanted to stick with
this Bitcoin for corporations thing. I think I had a lot of potential. And so, so now I'm the
managing director of Bitcoin for corporations. So that has been a very exciting journey. It's

(01:10:37):
obviously like the main narrative in the Bitcoin space right now. It's the demand for this is crazy.
I mean, everybody wants to be close to Sailor, to be close to the companies that are doing this.
And so this network that's kind of emerged has been, man, it's been a whirlwind. Like I just got

(01:10:58):
back from Hong Kong. And so my head's kind of still spinning. But, you know, the pipeline of
new companies that are coming online, you know, from outside of the Bitcoin space.
I think it's probably the most exciting development because we're seeing just like the growth in
various sectors and companies who are like, okay, I'm going to add Bitcoin in my balance

(01:11:19):
sheet because this is just a smart thing to do, not because they're just like, you know,
crypto native or whatever.
And so I think what we're seeing, there's a number of different like aspects of this.
You got kind of the pure play Bitcoin treasury companies that are just like, we're going to
raise money and we going to buy Bitcoin and we going to raise more money and we going to buy more Bitcoin And that like the flywheel I think that great There a handful of companies that are doing it The ones that are first to market in their region are usually the winners

(01:11:48):
Like there is very much a first mover advantage to this that's taking place.
And I think that probably has a limited time horizon in terms of like,
there's only so much capital that can go around for the pure play Bitcoin treasury companies.
and that capital is probably going to be allocated to, again, the first mover in a market.
But now kind of this next wave, the second wave is, again, these non-endemic companies that have a

(01:12:11):
core business. They have an operating business that's making money. And they're going to raise
money, but they're also going to use their profits to buy Bitcoin. And so to me, that's probably
going to be the more sustainable thing that we're going to see happening as capital kind of gets
allocated to the pure play companies. What's going to need to happen is you're going to have
to have a real business. You're going to have to have an underlying company that's profitable,

(01:12:35):
that makes money, that uses its profits to buy Bitcoin, because that's going to be
the more sustainable flywheel. And so, yeah, that's been a really fun part of what's been
emerging is seeing the different companies that are coming online that have nothing to do with
Bitcoin, but just recognize that this is where the ball is going. This is where the world is going.
Everything is going to be repriced in Bitcoin. Every company is going to be a Bitcoin company.

(01:12:58):
and it just, it feels like we're on our way to hyper Bitcoinization. It feels like all the things
that we've been dreaming up and we've been kind of planning for, you know, all of like the game,
we've talked about game theory for so long and now it's like happening, it's playing out.
And so it's exciting, man. I think I'm one of those people that, that believes this time is
different. You know, I think, I think when you have Bitcoin treasury companies buying more Bitcoin

(01:13:23):
that's being, that is being mined, you know, quarter over quarter, uh, that, that gap is,
is growing. It's not, it's not going down and they're buying, uh, exponentially more. Uh,
and so when you have a finite resource like Bitcoin, like I just don't see us having a
intense bear market. Like we have, I think the four year cycle thing is, is, is kind of over.

(01:13:48):
Well, it'll be interesting too, because like we've been in a fairly tight, uh, monetary
policy period for some time as well. And Bitcoin has actually done
shockingly well during that same period. So it'll be very interesting
to see what happens when, you know, the printers have still been
purring along, but we did have like a decrease in M2 during

(01:14:10):
the last half of Biden's admin. That did happen.
Liquidity came out of the system. So it'll be very interesting to see what happens when that really goes
full bore again. I think we're back up to new all-time highs in the M2
money supply, but like we, we haven't seen anything yet. Like it's, you know, it's, it's
going to, it's going parabolic, right? I'm curious too. So you mentioned the operating business

(01:14:31):
versus kind of the pure play. Do you think that operating business becomes even more important
in a, okay. Yes. For your cycles, you're saying like maybe dead, but Bitcoin is still going to
have drawbacks, right? We, we, we know that's the case. Maybe they're not extended bear market
winters like we've had in the past, but of course, Bitcoin will, will, will take a dip and that dip
may last for longer than people would like. Does that operating business become kind of, uh,

(01:14:55):
especially important during those times? Cause then you have, you have cashflow to fall back on.
You're able to take advantage of those, you know, you can, you can maybe, uh, invest in more Bitcoin
without needing to, you know, uh, further dilute or things like that. How do you see that?
No, absolutely. I mean, I think it's going to be exponentially more important. I think, you know,
there's exceptions to this, um, strategy is certainly one. I think, you know, they have a

(01:15:17):
level of like escape velocity where they're going to be able to survive any downturn really. Like
I think they can survive that 80 or 90% drawdown from here. Metaplanet is another one. I think they
have a level of escape velocity where it's like they're good, they're chilling. There's a couple
others that I think are going to be able to survive the bear market or even an intense

(01:15:40):
drawback just based on raising more capital and kind of living off of their Bitcoin.
Um, but not every company is going to make it, unfortunately.
And I hate to say that there's, there's pure play companies that are, um, probably going
to get acquired by the bigger companies.

(01:16:00):
I think that's, that's going to be part of the sort of this next cycle where, um, companies
that get over leveraged or don't, don't deploy capital responsibly.
Um, they're going to, uh, not be able to survive if there, if there is a big, a big
drawdown. And I don't think that's going to be catastrophic for the Bitcoin industry. Like a lot
of people think like this is the next Terra Luna or whatever the FUD is. But I just don't think

(01:16:24):
that's the case at all. I think it's if anything, it's just they're just going to be M&A opportunities
for a sailor to be like, okay, well, I can buy your company and your balance sheet for pennies
on the dollar. I'm going to do that. And, you know, Bitcoin's going to Bitcoin's going to be
fine. So even the worst kind of case scenario that people can draw up isn't really that bad

(01:16:48):
because of the companies that already exist in the space that are kind of like a little bit of
a backbone for sort of this treasury strategy. So yeah, there's a lot to be excited about. I'm
obviously, you know, more on the bullish side, very optimistic. You know, I just, I think though,

(01:17:10):
So regardless, we're going back to the basics where you have to be able to make money.
You have to be able to produce value.
You have to have a product or service that people want.
And ultimately, that's going to be the thing that helps you survive.
Not just survive, but thrive.
Like if your goal is to continue to accumulate Bitcoin, like the best way to do that is to
make money and use your own revenue to acquire more Bitcoin.

(01:17:35):
So yeah, I think we're going to see different dynamics.
I think the market right now has Bitcoin companies priced in not really the most accurate ways in some cases, especially when it comes to these companies that have operating businesses.
They're almost being penalized by the market, which is interesting, right?
It's weird.

(01:17:55):
It's weird.
Yeah.
I mean, like Semler is one that I think about there.
where like you know and uh similar has been pretty pretty forward thinking in terms of having a big
operating business and a successful business but realizing they're somewhat of a you know a quote
zombie company um you know and and they've made the switch and like yeah it's it is strange it

(01:18:16):
seems that people i mean right now they're all kind of getting as we were you know record this
september 2nd they're all kind of getting hammered uh as bitcoin has you know because bitcoin died i
don't know if you heard but it crashed down to like you know 108 000 infinitely printable petro
dollar cuck bucks per coin it's really it's sad to see it die like this um so i think people are
people are understandably skeptical of this i would also you know i whenever i have these

(01:18:40):
conversations about bitcoin treasury companies which is a lot lately because it comes up in some
way shape or form i like to remind people like for the average person like you should just
buy bitcoin accumulate a large enough utxo transfer it to cold storage live your life like
Like, you know, like these are certainly not for everyone.
And you're probably not a good trader.

(01:19:00):
I know I'm not.
You know, and so like buy Bitcoin, put it in cold storage, live your life, you know, save the value, time, energy in Bitcoin.
Great.
But like it is really important to talk about these things because I think they were inevitable on the one hand.
I think like nation state adoption is also inevitable.
if bitcoin was going to succeed which i believe it is succeeding then naturally every individual

(01:19:24):
every corporation every nation state is going to want it of course there's no situation where
bitcoin is winning but you know a corporation or nation state says no no thank you i don't want
any of that i don't want any of the best performing asset no thank you sir no it's just it's sorry
that's not realistic and so it's like it i think this is ultimately very positive for bitcoin uh

(01:19:45):
I do think that a lot of these, a lot of these companies, to your point,
I think you're exactly right with the thesis about acquisitions during
drawdowns.
I think this is a winner take or a couple of winners take most couple of
winners take all like size matters in this sailor.
Obviously he's got the size, right? You know, like he is, he is the,

(01:20:05):
so I don't think anyone's catching him.
Like he's got more Bitcoin than most countries combined.
Like I don't, so I don't think that's happening.
Metaplanet has been acquiring massive amounts, super impressive.
Then there's kind of like a, you know, there's, there's a race you've,
you've got, you've got Nakamoto, you've got 20, you know, 21 with,
with Mallers, you've got a few, you've got similar, a few of these others.

(01:20:28):
Then you've got like a very long tail of like very small ones.
And I think, I mean, it will be interesting to like,
if Bitcoin doesn't go through a protracted bear market,
is it just going to come down to like,
some of these companies are going to be managed poorly.
They're not going to execute the right strategy.
And that's like it won't be the bear market that destroys them.
It'll just be kind of a bad implementation of these Bitcoin treasury strategies.

(01:20:51):
Is that kind of where you're at given the assumption that if the four-year cycle is dead, then is that necessarily true?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean I think execution matters.
The team that you have matters.
How you deploy capital, all of it is critically important.
And I think that, again, some companies aren't going to make it.
and it's going to be fine for Bitcoin, but it's going to be tragic for a lot of people.

(01:21:18):
And so I agree with you, like buy Bitcoin, put it in cold storage. This is in a lot of ways
on the retail side, this is still kind of a degen play. This is like, I feel like we got through
like the meme coin cycle. And now a lot of capital is like, what else can I gamble on?
What else can I speculate on? And, you know, Bitcoin treasury companies for retail is a very speculative play. So like, I don't think it's for everyone. You know, I think if you think back to sort of how this all started, Saylor's original thesis for kind of what was going to be his like major unlock was attracting pools of capital from different parts of the market that didn't have access to Bitcoin.

(01:22:01):
So his original thesis wasn't even like retail is going to be what makes this thing happen.
It was like fixed income markets and equity markets and like giving exposure to Bitcoin to pools of capital that just couldn't buy spot Bitcoin.
And so that's important to kind of keep in mind.
I think that's the companies that can do that well in their respective markets, unlock capital that doesn't have access to Bitcoin.

(01:22:27):
Those are the ones that are going to succeed if they keep that kind of the main thesis.
The ones that are more kind of like focused on trying to get retail hype and sort of meme their way into, you know, getting their stock to go up.
But if that's the strategy, like I just I think that's a little bit less sustainable.
And again, if you get over leveraged, if you if you do this irresponsibly, like you're going to have a hard time.

(01:22:51):
So there is a right way to do this.
And there is a there is a way that's that's very speculative and may or may not work out depending on a lot of different factors.
And so I would encourage people to be very cautious with kind of how they're using their own funds and recognize that this is a speculative – this is a very speculative play and be careful.

(01:23:13):
Amen.
And it is interesting what you mentioned, kind of like the relying on this community for some of these moments.
It is like the same sort of narratives that you saw during like the – you see with meme coins and NFTs.
Like, well, it's no longer about utility.
It's just like, well, we've got the best community.
Our community is so, you know, and it's like, I'm not, I'm not saying they're the same thing.
Cause they're not like one is fundamentally, I think like polls, a meme coin, shit coins

(01:23:38):
across the board, NFTs, whatever it is.
They are taking capital that would otherwise flow into Bitcoin and they're putting it into
this garbage and enriching a small group of founders.
Right.
With Bitcoin treasury companies, the capital still ultimately flows to Bitcoin.
It just flows through a proxy vehicle.
Right.
And so like, ultimately that is accretive to Bitcoin.
I think that is good for Bitcoin.

(01:23:59):
But again, that being said, like, be very careful out there, folks.
Like, there is no substitute for Bitcoin held in cold storage.
You, like, you know, most of the benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required.
So, like, but, like, you should know that if you're buying Bitcoin treasury companies, you're not buying a claim on Bitcoin.

(01:24:19):
Right.
You're buying a security.
You're buying equity.
Like, that is different.
You have no rights to any of the Bitcoin that they have.
That's not how it works.
Right.
So, you know, if you want actual Bitcoin, buy actual Bitcoin.
And if you want to speculate, speculate.
Nobody's going to stop you.
Do whatever you want with your money, but just be conscious of that.
It's, you know, buyer beware, but like, yeah, a lot of people are going to get fabulously

(01:24:43):
wealthy at the same time.
100%.
And I love what you just said.
I think it's such an important distinction.
It's like, I think the companies that are doing this that are focused on accumulating
as much Bitcoin as possible, and they're not really, it's not like they don't care about
their stock.
Obviously, they want their stock to go up and they want to create shareholder value.
But if they keep the main thing about actually, you know, acquiring Bitcoin and having an

(01:25:06):
creative strategy and not focusing so much on kind of the like meme aspect of this, those
are going to be the winners because they recognize that like this is it.
We are in the digital gold rush and the name of the game is to acquire as much Bitcoin as
you can as responsibly as you can.
and there are going to be factors beyond your control. And stock price is certainly one of them,

(01:25:27):
but on a long enough time horizon, like, you know, right now, again, we're seeing all these
companies kind of a pullback in their stock price, but dude, the ones that are still stacking hard,
um, and, and kind of just like keeping their head down, executing the strategy,
they're going to win. Like we know that they're going to win because they have,
yeah, they're increasing their Bitcoin on their balance sheet. Um, and so, yeah,

(01:25:50):
keeping the main thing, the main thing and, and recognizing that, you know, if you're buying
retail stocks, then, you know, you're speculating, then there's a lot of value to be created and
there can be a lot of winners. So it's an exciting time. It's a precarious time in a lot of ways.
But yeah, this is what we signed up for. This is, like you said, when corporations got wise to the

(01:26:14):
fact that, oh, this is a race. There's only so many of these things. And I can just tell you,
based on the conversations we're having, like, this is not going anywhere. And in a lot of ways,
we're just getting started. Like the, the, the pipeline that we have, the number of like the
inbound that we have is overwhelming. It's crazy. Um, and so I don't, I don't see it slowing down
anytime soon. What's, uh, what's your take on, okay. So we've got like Bitcoin treasure companies,

(01:26:40):
we've got pure plays, we've got Bitcoin treasure companies with an operating business. Then we've
got Bitcoin companies that also have a Bitcoin treasury, like fold comes to mind as one. And
That is a publicly traded company, right?
You know, they don't have the biggest treasure, but they've got a pretty darn good one.
They're actually like, you know, they're hardcore Bitcoiners.
They're a Bitcoin company.
And then you've got Bitcoin miners who, in many cases, like some of them have raised capital to buy Bitcoin.

(01:27:04):
But also a lot of them, obviously, they mine Bitcoin.
Like that's what they're in the business of doing.
So they have accumulated treasuries through that.
how how do you view that dynamic of bitcoin companies with bitcoin treasuries
bitcoin miners with bitcoin treasuries you know like is that an even better play that's ultimately

(01:27:26):
i've noticed recently because i do follow this stuff and i've i have you know small uh small
stakes in you know some of these companies miners and a couple of the treasury companies i have some
strategy full disclosure uh again i recommend everybody just get cold storage bitcoin that is
all I will ever recommend. But it seems that miners have been actually doing pretty well lately,
even amidst this, this drawdown, this tiny little drawdown. But how do you view this playing out?

(01:27:50):
Like, do, does there one of these categories that outperforms? We've already said, okay,
the pure play is having a moment, but like, can it last? Operating business is good. But what
about a Bitcoin operating business or a Bitcoin mining operating business? Is that inherently
better for long term. Yeah, I definitely see a scenario where it could be like fold is a great

(01:28:11):
example. It's one of my one of my favorite companies full disclosure. I've had been a
fold cardholder, you know, since they rolled out the card. And I think that, you know, they're I
mean, I think the top top 20 Bitcoin treasuries. But you're right, they're focused on their
operating business. And it's a little bit tragic that you know, the market doesn't isn't rewarding

(01:28:31):
that right now. But I think that long term, you know, again, they got their head down,
they're building a good product, they're creating value, they're creating revenue,
and they're buying Bitcoin with, you know, their excess cash. So like, I think eventually the
market will reward that. Again, I think the market right now is kind of distracted by the shiny
object, which is the pure plays. And MNAV, and you know, I think we overhype MNAV a little bit,

(01:28:57):
I get it. It's a valuable metric, but like, let's just chill with thinking it's everything.
And then you got miners and that's a whole different beast. You know, I think again,
the market is, is pricing in just like the overhead risk primarily. And they're looking at
how quickly can you accumulate Bitcoin? Okay, cool. You got this whole mining operation,

(01:29:20):
whatever. And that's another thing that I think is just like not going to be
the case for very long. I think people are going to look at, you know, Mara that has, I think,
I think they're number two, if I'm not mistaken, 50,000 Bitcoin on their balance sheet.
You know, the mining industry right now is a little bit in an interesting spot because I think

(01:29:40):
a lot of these public miners, especially got over levered in a different way. They got over levered
with, with, you know, too many machines. I mean, a lot of them, a lot of these, a lot of these
mining companies have machines that they don't have plugged in, right? Because that was what was
being demanded essentially of the market is like increase, you know, your hash rate.

(01:30:01):
And I think that period is kind of starting to subside. And so miners are having to correct. And
now the dynamic that you have right now in the mining industry is that the new machines aren't
really that much better than the previous generation machines. And so what we've seen in
the past is like the four, around the time, the four year cycle was starting to hype up.
You would be able to deploy these new machines that were way outperforming the previous generations,

(01:30:26):
uh, um, ASICs. Now that's not the case. And so it's like, all right, uh, I guess we'll just keep
mining these other machines so that we don't have to, you know, buy these other machines.
And so you have this oversupply of ASICs. And, uh, so the ASIC distributors aren't, you know,
aren't making money. And so there's all these like unique dynamics in, in mining that are,
that are happening during this particular cycle. Um, and there's a lot of things that are, that,

(01:30:50):
you know, are on the horizon that are exciting. I think, um, I think proto is one, um, you know,
squares new, new minor. I don't know if you've seen this, but, um, it's super cool, ridiculous
specs on, on this machine. Like if they can get this, this thing up and running and deployed,
like, I think that could actually change the, the, the mining industry, um, in a, in a very

(01:31:11):
positive way. So yeah, it's hard to say what's going to happen with the public miners. A lot of
them are like in the top 10, top 20 of Bitcoin holders, but they don't necessarily run an
accretive strategy. And so they're not really kind of participating in this current like hype cycle
of Bitcoin treasury companies. A lot of them are considering pivots. Like how do we do this? How
do we actually become a Bitcoin treasury company and increase our MNAV and do all that?

(01:31:35):
everyone's kind of scrambling to keep up with this narrative.
I don't think any company, even outside of the industry,
is exempt from having to evaluate like, okay, what are we going to do about this?
How are we going to address this?
How are we going to get involved?
And so I think what we're going to see over the next six months
is a lot of companies pivoting to kind of do this,
a lot of companies recognizing that they need to participate in this digital gold rush.

(01:32:00):
and yeah
it's hard to predict who the winners and losers
are going to be but like you said earlier
I think there's going to be a couple breakouts
and
yeah it's going to be
a wild run man
What a time to be alive right
and yeah you were correct Mara
is number two just over

(01:32:20):
50,000 coins
and then Riot number seven
with a little over 19,000
you got CleanSpark as well
clean spark with uh almost 13 000 wow it's interesting coinbase cracked uh after losing
the top 10 spot they're back in at number 10 with 11 776 coins so even uh even the the shit coin

(01:32:45):
salesmen finally capitulate and start stacking uh bitcoin again what a shocker well yeah it's gonna
it's gonna be it's gonna be wild to see it play out it's amazing to be alive at this moment in
time as we see this because I think we are like we are undeniably so early we're so early to
bitcoin we're so early to treasury strategies we're so early to all of this like we get to be
here for it like what an amazing thing it's gonna be a different world that uh that our children get

(01:33:09):
to experience so hopefully a better one no doubt that's a role we have a role to play in that it's
not you know hope isn't a strategy I think we uh we can be active in in determining kind of how this
how this thing plays out and like we talked about earlier it does kind of start with uh with phrasing
raising children intentionally full circle.

(01:33:29):
Yeah.
I love it,
man.
But George,
this was a great to have you on.
I love the conversation.
I think folks are going to get a lot out of it.
And there's a,
there's something here for the,
for the dads and the Bitcoin treasury D gens.
So I got a little,
a little bit for everyone,
but I appreciate you coming on.
Where do you want to send folks again,
just in case they missed it the first time around.
So yeah,

(01:33:49):
you can find me on X.
I'm going to be more active on Noster after this conversation.
Yes.
That is my goal.
so um but yeah i'm on uh exit g mikhail and then um you know check out the book i am not your bruh
it's kind of hard to find on amazon you can't just you have to type in i am not your bruh book
that's how you find it uh go to go to the bitcoin magazine store and you can find it there as well

(01:34:10):
awesome well jord thanks for coming on here uh appreciate it we'll have to and i'll i'll hit you
up about maybe we maybe we spin spin off a dad's pot bitcoin dad's podcast i'm into it as well but
Appreciate your time and I look forward to seeing you in the flesh again soon.
All right.
Cheers, man.
Thank you.

(01:34:33):
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast.
Remember to subscribe to this podcast, wherever you're watching or listening and share it with your friends, family and strangers on the Internet.
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash Walker and this podcast at primal.net slash Titcoin.

(01:34:54):
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast.
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links.
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And head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

(01:35:18):
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to The Bitcoin Podcast.
Until next time, stay free.

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