Crossing the Line: Thresholds and Leash Reactivity with Jessica Wheatcraft

Ever wondered why some dogs transform from perfect companions at home to reactive dynamos the moment a leash gets clipped on? Jessica Wheatcraft returns to discuss the complex world of leash reactivity with clarity and compassion that both dog guardians and professionals will appreciate.

This conversation goes beyond simplistic solutions by exploring the subtle body language cues that signal stress long before barking begins. Jessica expertly differentiates leash reactivity from aggression, explaining how a dog's motivation on leash often stems from frustration rather than intimidation. "The dog's behavior on a leash can be very different than their behavior off of a leash to the same exact stimulus," she notes, highlighting how context dramatically changes a dog's responses.

What makes this episode particularly valuable is the practical framework Jessica provides for understanding thresholds. Rather than viewing them as single breaking points, she describes thresholds as doorways or transitions where behavior changes in observable ways. Learn to recognize when your dog crosses these thresholds through subtle signs like increased respiration, closed mouth, facial tension, or raised tail carriage. This awareness allows handlers to intervene effectively before reactions escalate!

About Jessica:

https://www.jessicawheatcraft.com/about/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey friends, in this episode I'm joined by my good
friend and colleague, thebrilliant Jessica Wheatcraft,
for an in-depth look at one ofthe most common and often
misunderstood behaviorchallenges, which is leash
reactivity.
We explore not just what leashreactivity looks like on the
surface, but the emotional andenvironmental underpinnings that

(00:22):
drive it, from the subtle signsof stress to the compounding
effects of trigger stacking.
Jessica shares a wealth ofinsight into how dogs experience
the world on a leash and how wecan help them navigate it more
successfully.
Jessica brings her years ofexperience and sharp insight
into the nuanced world ofreactivity, helping us unpack

(00:43):
everything from stressthresholds and trigger stacking
to vocalization, criteriasetting and how enrichment can
transform a reactive dog's world.
We also talk about the criticalrole of coaching the human end
of the leash and evolvingskillset needed to support
clients through these complexcases.
Jessica is also an instructorfor the Real Life Solutions

(01:05):
Aggression in Dogs course andgives mentor sessions for
AggressiveDogcom.
She's a certified dog behaviorconsultant and has loads of
experience in these cases.
And before we jump into today'sepisode, a quick heads up If
you're looking to learn moreabout helping dogs with
aggression issues, head on overto AggressiveDogcom, because
we've got something for everyone.

(01:26):
For pet pros, there's theAggression in Dogs Master Course
, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
on aggression, packed withexpert insights and CEUs.
For dog guardians, check outReal Life Solutions, which is a
practical course for everydaychallenges like leash reactivity
, which Jessica covers, anddog-to-dog aggression,
dog-to-human aggression andresource guarding.

(01:48):
And if you want full access toexpert webinars, live mentor
sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access membership
is just $29.95 a month.
You'll also find info on the2025 Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening inCharlotte this September.
That can all be found ataggressivedogcom.
Check it out after the show.

(02:11):
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.
This week I have a repeat guest.
Jessica Weecraft is back andwe're going to be diving deep
into the topic of leashreactivity again.
We took a deep dive last time.
We're going to take a deeperdive this time because we want
to really get into nuances ofsome of the topics and concepts
that sometimes don't get talkedabout enough in this topic.

(02:33):
So welcome back to the show,jessica.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Thank you, Mike.
I am thrilled to be back.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
It's great to have you back and, as you guys know,
jessica has spoken at theAggression and Dogs Conference
and this is her second time backon the podcast because she is
an expert on this topic.
So, first thing, in talking toan expert, I'm going to ask them
to define what leash reactivityis, because there's a lot of
definitions out there for thisand I think people will
sometimes say well, all dogs arereactive because they're

(03:02):
reacting to stimuli in theirenvironment, or the term leash
reactivity is kind of nicer tosay than leash aggression.
So you have all these differentreasons for either calling it
reactivity or not, but how doesJessica Wheatcraft define leash
reactivity?

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, you bring up a good point that, depending on
who you ask, there are going tobe different definitions for
what reactivity means.
And I think for me, when I thinkof reactivity, specifically
leash reactivity, some of thethings that differentiate that
from, for example, you mentionedleash aggression, is that the

(03:41):
dog's intention or maybe we canthink about like the dog's
motivation when they're reactingon leash is not always with the
goal of intimidating anotherdog or wanting the other dog to
go away.
And I think, if we'reconsidering when dogs are using
aggression or aggressivebehaviors, a lot of times their

(04:02):
intent is to control somethingor to threaten or to maintain,
you know, a resource or whateverit could be.
And with leash reactivity, Ioften see dogs who are likely
experience frustration and theyactually really want to get
access to whatever they'reseeing, and so I tend to think

(04:25):
of leash reactivity being moreof a reaction that is on leash
and it typically involvesvocalizations, so it could be
barking, growling, shriekingeven, and there's typically
other reactions as well, such aslunging on leash or really
pulling and straining, andsometimes you will see other

(04:46):
behaviors like a heart stare youknow the commissures of the
mouth pulled forward some morethreatening gestures.
It could really encompass manythings, but how I really think
of this is that the dog'sbehavior on a leash can be very
different than their behavioroff of a leash to the same exact
stimulus, and it's the leashthat's creating that change in

(05:08):
behavior, and so, yeah, so Ithink that's kind of how I think
of it.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's a good distinction, I like it's almost
like context specific to theleash, because we might have
some dogs that are, you know,hate other dogs when they're off
leash as well.
So then we'd probably label itsomething else, like dog to dog
aggression or, you know, hateother dogs when they're off
leash as well so then we'dprobably label it something else
, like dog to dog aggression or,you know, dog directed
aggression.
So that's a good distinction andthat kind of segues to our next

(05:33):
topic, which is thresholds.
Because when we think typicallyof thresholds that's another
label, that's at all kinds ofdefinitions.
So when we typically think ofthresholds we think of the
distance from something, ormight be when the dog starts
reacting.
But again, how do you definethresholds?

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yes, yeah, you're right.
Most of the time when peoplethink of thresholds, they think
of it as my dog being overthreshold, meaning they are,
have some sort of reaction onleash, and they often think that
that reaction when they see thereaction, it's more outward
displays of behavior that aremore obvious to them, whether

(06:11):
it's vocalizing or lunging, andpeople will often perceive that
as being well.
Now my dog is over thresholdbecause I'm seeing these
behaviors.
And thresholds are far morenuanced than that, because dogs
can go over many thresholds.
Thresholds are really just ametaphor to describe a change in
the dog's behavior andsometimes, when I try to explain

(06:35):
these concepts to my clients, Iwill often use the example of a
threshold of a door, because alot of people are familiar with
a very physical threshold in thesense of you're inside of your
house and then you have thisthreshold of the door and now
you are outside of your house.
That's a physical threshold,but then there's also changes in

(06:55):
your dog's behavior.
I don't know any dog who doesnot change their behavior from
the moment they're inside theirhouse to the moment they're
outside of their house.
So there's many different typesof thresholds and those are
important to distinguish or justbe aware of, because the more
that you have an understandingof what your dog looks like when
they are under a threshold oressentially feeling more relaxed

(07:19):
, then the better chance youhave to set your dog up for
success.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
So you kind of look at it as what that individual
dog is doing from an observablebehavior standpoint for your
clients.
So you can say for this dogthey start huffing or growling
when they've stepped over thatthreshold.
Or we can really say thestimulus has stepped over their
threshold in a way.
But would you say, then there'ssome observable behavior in a

(07:47):
particular dog.
That's how you define thatthey've gone over their
threshold.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yes, there are often specific behaviors that
individual dogs will commonlypresent when they begin to go
over a threshold, and I thinkanother way to even break this
down would be one there's athreshold of preceding the
stimulus right, and the stimuluscould be anything.
It could be that your dogstepped out and there was a

(08:14):
scent that they picked up on.
So there's one threshold thatyour dog crossed because prior
to that they had not picked upon the scent.
So there's that Prior to that,they had not picked up on the
scent.
So there's that.
There's also this threshold ofwhere the stimulus becomes more
aversive to the dog, and I thinkthat is where we start to see
those signs of a dog what youmentioned, like huffing, or I

(08:38):
often tend to see things likethe dog's tail raised up over
their back, so their tail goingfrom a more neutral position to
their tail starting to go raisedup over their back, so their
tail going from a more neutralposition to their tail starting
to go up and over their back.
I will frequently see thingslike the dog picking up their
pace and, in terms of them beingmore relaxed and walking next
to you, that they start to pickup their pace.

(08:58):
You often see an increase intheir breathing rate so that's
another one.
And you might see some thingsaround their face.
So you might see things likethey might close their mouths,
they might start to have moretension around their faces,
meaning like a wrinkle inbetween their forehead.
So a lot of these things can bereally, really subtle.
But when you start to see thosesigns, then you know that

(09:21):
you're reaching this thresholdwhere your dog is starting to
have an aversion to the stimulus, and so that is that part where
it's most important tounderstand what your individual
dog or if you're a trainer andyou're helping your client like.
What does this individual dogstart to look like when they
reach that point?

Speaker 1 (09:43):
And in terms of the threshold, let's draw that
imaginary line, the doorway thatyou explained.
Where would you put the dog inthat line if we start to see
those very subtle signals andthey might be overt signals to
some of us but the increasedrespiration, the wrinkle between
their forehead, like are theyalready at threshold, slightly

(10:05):
under it, getting a little bitpast it at that point, or does
it depend on the dog?

Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, I think that they have crossed a threshold.
Did it cross the threshold somuch to now where we're seeing a
larger reaction?
I guess maybe we can think ofit as like a scale right, like
they're continuing to go on thisscale where when they are
crossing this threshold, theirresponse to that becomes greater
and greater and greater.
And so I would determine thatonce I start seeing a dog with,

(10:34):
you know, their tail going upand over their back, or their
mouth was nice and relaxed andopen, and then they closed it
really tightly, then I'm goingto consider that dog is it is
technically over a threshold?
Is it over the threshold wherethat dog is already reacting,
meaning like we're seeing thosereally outward displays of
barking and lunging?

(10:54):
No, but those things are oftenprecursors to those behaviors,
which is also why it's reallyimportant to take note of those.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Now let me unpack this a little further.
So think of that threshold.
It's like one of those oldsci-fi movies, I don't know.
It's like you get the doorwayand it's just up on this big
building, a wall, and you can.
Once you step out of thatthreshold, there's no floor on
the other side.
So you can kind of picture that.
Do you think that's a fairanalogy to help our clients
understand that that thresholdis important?
Because once the dog steps overthere, it's sometimes hard to

(11:26):
get them back because they'realready falling into the space.
We don't want them to.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
So, or is that too doom and gloom?
You think?
When you start to notice thosesubtle signs and you're really
aware of them, then they aremuch easier to redirect than
when the dog crosses thethreshold, where they are in a
full-blown reaction.
So it's much easier to reachthe dog when they're at that
point.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
So, in a way too, it's also who's looking at that
threshold and determining ifit's a bad thing or not.
So the dog could be saying I'mabout to step off, whereas the
human's like, all right, youalready stepped off that ledge,
and observation of the behaviorsand how it's feeling for the
dog, in a sense.
So in that regard, what do youdo to help clients where the dog

(12:24):
gives very little signaling?
So their threshold is, it'shard to see them creeping up to
that line, right.
So they maybe don't give you aton of respiration rate changes
or they're just, you know, sokind of separating out the
sudden environmental contrast.
So, like you know, of course,if somebody comes around the
corner with another dog, a lotof dogs are just going to go
from zero to 60, right, butlet's say it's a not so gradual

(12:49):
progression, even at a distance.
So the instant they see anotherdog from 100 yards away, they
get explosive and it's reallyhard to see any kind of subtle,
those breaths, you know, theincrease of respiration or the
mouth closing or those littlethings.
When it comes to the thresholdtopic, what do you do to help
clients there?

Speaker 2 (13:07):
A few things.
So one of the things that Ipoint out to my clients and help
them understand is I do a lotof comparisons of the dog's
behavior when they're morerelaxed compared to when they're
not, and so I call it doing abody scan.
And so when I'm out with myclients, they say, hey, let's,

(13:28):
we're going to pause, we'regoing to do a quick body scan of
your dog.
And this is often when the dogis pretty darn relaxed, you know
, there's no triggers around,they feel pretty good about the
environment, and what does yourdog look like right now?
Like what are the behaviorsthat your dog does when they are
feeling more relaxed?
Or the behaviors that your dogdisplays.
So I always take note of thosethings and then, as we, you know

(13:50):
, happen to see, or the dogagain perceive something.
I then point out the changes inthe dog's behavior, like, hey,
do you see that now the tail isstarting to creep up.
So I just make sure that Ipoint those things out, because
I think of learning dog bodylanguage as really very similar
to learning any other language,and it's not something that

(14:11):
you're going to get the firstweek or two that you're trying
to learn this, and so I think usas professionals, we tend to
forget how easy it is to, or wetend to forget how difficult it
is for the average person to beable to look at their dog and
pull out all of the differentpieces that are really relevant,

(14:31):
because it just is too manythings to look at.
So I like to try to point outcertain things and then,
especially if I see indicatorsthat the dog consistently
displays meaning it's usuallythe tail or it's the mouth, or
it's them freezing or it's themstaring for more than a few
seconds there's usuallysomething that the dog is

(14:54):
consistently doing that I canthen help my client notice and
take note of.
So that's one part of helpingthem understand, you know,
understand thresholds with theirdog, and the other part is okay
.
Well, if the dog is starting todisplay signs that they are
going over threshold, now whatdo we do?

(15:15):
And that is very dependent onthe environment, right, like
well, what is happening?
Is this a dog who, for example,we're out walking and another
dog appears and the direction ofthe dog is where it's walking
away from us at a distance?
Then we might just kind oflinger where we are so that
we're not continuing to gocloser in the direction of that

(15:37):
other dog, whereas if it's a dogthat is not walking away from
us and in fact it's turningtowards us, then that dog that
we are working with is going toneed some guidance, and so we're
probably going to call that dogaway.
We're going to changedirections, we're going to do
something to make sure thatwe're helping this dog not feel
too stressed about thatinteraction and have the ability

(15:59):
to still respond to us andideally, you know, take food and
do the training that we're outthere to do, because when I am
out there working with myclients, I am reinforcing
behaviors that I want to seemore of, and so that kind of
also ties into thresholds whenwe think about okay, well, here

(16:20):
we are, we are reinforcing thedog, not reacting.
If we wanted to put a real big,blanket statement on that, and
what that looks like will bevery different to any dog, and
which behaviors you chose,that's a whole nother thing
because it's very individual toevery dog.
But that also plays into thetopic of thresholds.
Is okay, well, we're out.

(16:40):
And what do we do?
Most of the time, we're tryingto cue the dog to do something
else.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
And kind of in those contexts, we're playing around
with that threshold line in asense, because it's not static,
right.
So in that regard, sticking onthe topic of thresholds I want
to talk about antecedents ortriggers in a minute, but
sticking along the lines ofthresholds so we're thinking
about again the point at whichthe dog displays starts to
display the target behaviors wefind are going to be undesirable

(17:09):
for us or for the dog, right?
What about when there'sthinking more outside just that
moment?
So when we think aboutthresholds, we might also think
about the dog's tolerance forstress, you know, so that
threshold there so this again.
There's lots of ways of definingthresholds and we can think of
the physiological threshold.
How do you help clientsnavigate that aspect?
So they maybe saw a trigger twohours ago, or they had a rough

(17:34):
night's sleep, or they have somemedical issue.
You have all these other thingsthat can impact threshold.
What do you do to help clientsfigure that out?

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up, especially
when it comes to, you know, thedog's physiological response to
their environment, becausethat's a huge component of
working really with any dog, butspecifically with leash
reactivity, because beforeyou're about to go out in the
world with your dog, you want tomake sure that they're in a
place where they can probablyhandle that.

(18:02):
And so I do talk a lot with myclients in regards to their
dog's routine and what stresslooks like and what are things
that they can change in theirdog's routine to reduce
stressors in that dog's life.
And a lot of that comes down toexercise, enrichment and sleep.
And I do tend to find that fordogs who, for example, aren't

(18:26):
getting enough sleep, then theygo out in the world and their
thresholds are naturally lowerbecause they are sleep deprived
or if they happen to have somestressful experiences over the
last few days, such as they wentto the vet or perhaps maybe
they were out and, let's say,they have a neighbor dog that is

(18:49):
like their arch enemy.
And I tend to see this a lotwith my reactive dog clients
where it's like, yeah, there'sthis one dog you know that my
dog hates and it lives, you knowthree doors down and sometimes
they're out and sometimesthey're not.
So let's say they happen tohave something where, like that
dog really, you know, came alongthe fence line and really
antagonized my client's dog andthey had this big rah, rah, rah,

(19:09):
you know, through the fence andyou know the client's trying to
get their dog to move on, andso forth.
So let's say that happened theday before.
Well, in my experience anddepending on that dog's level of
resiliency, most dogs are goingto not have recovered from that
stressful experience even thenext day.
And I think that's somethingthat for a lot of our clients,

(19:32):
they don't always know how tomake that connection between hey
, your dog has had a stressfulpast few days and they might be
watching their dog's behaviorthe day that the event happened,
meaning you know that, forexample, that fence fight
between the other dogs, so theymight be watching their dog's
behavior that day and thinking,well, yeah, we eventually moved

(19:53):
on and they were OK, and thenthey don't quite see how that
might connect to the next daythat they take their dog out and
the moment that they step outtheir front door their dog is
more hypervigilant, is maybescanning more, is a little less
responsive to some of thebehaviors that the dog typically
knows pretty well, and maybeeven at that point their dog is

(20:17):
eating and taking food, butthey're using a lot of pressure
when doing so, meaning they arebeing what a lot of us call
being sharky, so they grab thetreat from your hand pretty hard
and that's a change in behavior.
And those are all indicatorsthat this is a dog that is
already starting the walk, beingover a threshold.
And for some of our clientsthey might not really see the

(20:40):
connection between the stressthat the dog had experienced the
days prior.
They just think well, today mydog is having an off day, or
today my dog's having a reallyhard time with this, and I don't
know why.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, such an important point you're bringing
up here because it kind of hasme thinking like you know, if
we're working out, we needrecovery days, right.
So even though it could besomething that's you know, we
didn't do anything that'sinjurious or that hurt us, but
we're working out, so we needsome a day or two to let our
muscles recover.
Do you talk to clients aboutthat too?
Because as trainers, let's faceit, many times we're like

(21:15):
fingers crossed.
The client does this, maybelike once or twice a week, right
.
But what if you have somethingthat's really like, committed
and they're like, yeah, I'mgoing to do this, I've got this
awesome plan from Jessica, I'mgoing to go out and do this
training and we're going toreinforce this album behaviors
and they start to do like everyday.
Then maybe the dog still, youknow we're not seeing these
over-threshold moments, but weknow that it's.
The dogs need some time toprocess things, to recover.

(21:37):
You know, even if it's not asuper stressful situation,
there's still some stressinvolved in learning.
Do you ever have to talk toyour clients about that aspect
versus please do this right.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
Again, those are things thatevery dog is going to respond to
their routine and theirenvironment differently than the
next one, and so I think that'swhy it's so important for us,
as trainers, to really look atthat dog's routine and also see
how they respond when they're inthe environments, and for us to
be able to judge whether it'stoo stressful for that

(22:10):
individual dog.
And then what I like to do is Ilike to make some routine
changes, but I don't like tohave them be permanent, because
I also want to be able tocollect data.
Okay, well, what happens if wejust change this part?
What changes in your dog'sbehavior do we see?
So, for example, some of myclients I will see them and I
will see their dog in action,out and about in public, and I

(22:34):
think, wow, this dog is reallyoverwhelmed.
And so in that case, I willsuggest we need to really reduce
the time that your dog isspending in this particular
environment.
So let's come up with othertime that your dog is spending
in this particular environment.
So let's come up with otherenvironments for your dog to
spend some time in that are nothave all of these stressors that
they're having to deal with,and let's do this for two weeks

(22:55):
and let's see what happens withyour dog.
And then we also need to thinkof okay, well, what does a dog
behave like when they're morerelaxed?
So we tend to see that they canrest more easily at home,
meaning they're not pacing orconstantly seem like they need
something.
Maybe they're relaxing more,they're able to sleep more

(23:15):
soundly.
Perhaps then, when we do exposethat dog to the stressful
environment again, we'restarting to see more relaxed
behaviors, meaning the dog iswalking at a slower pace.
They're more responsive to thetraining exercises that we have
taught them.
They also have more tolerance,in the sense which tolerance and

(23:37):
thresholds, I think, often gokind of hand in hand that
perhaps instead of seeing thedog at 100 feet and having a big
reaction because that wasreally typical for them, maybe
they're able to see the dog at100 feet and having a big
reaction because that was reallytypical for them, maybe they're
able to see the dog at, youknow, 75 feet and not have a
reaction to them because they'vehad more rest and breaks from
the environment.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yes, so that's a perfect way to segue into
triggers, you know.
So we've been talking about thethresholds and obviously
triggers are going to impactthresholds.
But in that regard of steppingback and thinking holistically
about what might impact thedog's day, we talked about
stressors and trying to makesure the dog's getting enough
enrichment, exercise and sleep,which I love that you mentioned

(24:21):
those things.
What about helping clientsrecognize when the dog responds
to a particular thing one dayand then the next they're not
and they're confused and we canget into nuances of how the dog
recognizes that.
Can they like?
For instance, it's just youknow, big, white, fluffy dogs
that the dog has issues with,but then one day it's not, or
one day it seems like it wasn'tan intact male the dog could

(24:42):
smell, like all these thingsLike how do you help clients
understand?
It's not just always distance,the exact distance from
something, or the time of day orsomething, because there's a
lot of ways to think aboutassessing that right.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yes, I know so many, so many ways.
So I would say, when it comesto assessing the triggers,
there's a lot of reactive dogsare reactive to more than just
the sight of the dog.
It's often more nuanced thanthat.
It's not necessarily just thesight of the dog or the
proximity, as you mentioned.

(25:16):
So when I do like an inventorywith my reactive dog clients, I
also look for ways to find otherareas that their dog also we
can call it being reactive in.
Although, for one example thatI'll give, with dogs that alert
to foot traffic that goes bytheir house, do we want to say
they're reactive towards peoplethat walk by their house?
Sure, we can call it that.

(25:36):
Or we could call it alertbarking or a territorial barking
, whatever it is.
The dog is having a reaction,they're barking and it's likely
a very similar reaction thanwhat they would have when
they're on a leash because again, they're behind this barrier.
And so I take an inventory ofokay, is it happening in the
home anywhere?
Is it happening in the caranywhere?
Because those are also reallycommon places that dogs are

(25:57):
reactive on leash.
We'll also react from thosespaces.
So I look for some things thereto better determine okay, where
else is the reactivityhappening?
Because we need to make surethat we're addressing that as
well, because we can't just goin and try to modify the dog's
behavior on leash when it'sspending 30 to 40 minutes of
every single day barking itshead off at the front window.

(26:18):
So that also needs to beaddressed.
So we do take all of thoseareas into consideration.
So we do take all of thoseareas into consideration.
Then I also help my clientsunderstand more about the
nuances of triggers, meaningwhen they notice dogs, why
sometimes they would react andsometimes they don't.
And in my experience it oftencomes down to a couple of things

(26:41):
.
So some of it is what the otherdog is doing.
Earlier I mentioned how if I'mout with a client and their dog
and we see a dog but the dog ismoving away from us I would say
probably eight times out of 10,that's going to be a much easier
situation for a reactive dogthan if it's walking towards
them.
So the position of the otherdog and what that dog is doing

(27:03):
matters of the other dog andwhat that dog is doing matters.
How much arousal or excitementthat other dog is displaying
also matters.
Things like whether that dog isstaring at my client's dog or
not, matters.
The size of the dog, the breedof the dog, all of those things
matter.
I would say that a lot of myreactive dog clients don't like
dogs that have pointy ears.

(27:24):
So German Shepherds and Huskiesand those types of dogs, they
don't like them and that'sbecause you know they have
pointy ears.
They often, you know, can do alot of staring and their tail
carriage is naturally high andso for a dog who might take one
look at a dog like that, theymight think well, this dog is,

(27:45):
you know, displaying a lot offorward body language in my
direction, so I'm going to bemore concerned about that dog
when in reality the dog justcarries itself that way,
naturally not much they could doabout it.
So those are some, I think,more nuances that I tend to see
with triggers, in terms of whythe dog seems okay with
something one time but notanother, is the actual triggers

(28:06):
themselves.
But then, you know, weobviously should talk about
trigger stacking as well.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, I love that you call it an inventory you take
and kind of determining a listof the triggers, which is so, so
important, because sometimes weforget about some and we have
to also measure the intensityand the differences.
It's funny you mentioned, likethe dogs with pointy ears,
because my Doberman I adopted myDoberman he was cropped and
docked and you know he gotyelled at a lot by other dogs, I

(28:32):
think just because it's hard tocommunicate with a Doberman
that's been cropped and docked,you know, and there's no tail
communication, very little nub.
That communicates.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
So yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
All right, so let's talk about trigger stacking, but
we're going to do that rightafter the break.
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All right, we're back withJessica Wecraft.
We're going to be talking abouttriggers next, or what we
sometimes refer to asantecedents, as well as the
stacking of those things whenstressors happen.
So give us the rundown on that.
How do you define or actuallydo you use the term trigger

(30:34):
stacking, or do you call itsomething else, and what term do
you use and how does it applyto the work you do?

Speaker 2 (30:40):
I like to use the word trigger stacking.
I think that it's pretty wellrecognized in the industry and
I've even had clients who reallyunderstand the concepts of
trigger stacking, so I like touse that and that is something
where, again, there's somethingthat the dog is not comfortable
with, something that they findaversive, and we can also maybe

(31:01):
consider that a trigger.
There's a reason why thattriggers the dog's behavior or
changes the dog's behavior, andso the triggers can be so many
things.
But kind of similar to what wewere talking about was sometimes
there's seeing a dog withpointy ears staring at them that
that's going to trigger aresponse in a dog.
But then when we think aboutthe concept of trigger stacking,

(31:24):
then that's where the dog isexperiencing multiple triggers
in a short amount of time.
The short amount of time againdepends on many factors, but I
guess I'll circle back to whatwe were talking about earlier
when I was referencingthresholds and how if the dog
had a stressful couple of days,then naturally their thresholds

(31:45):
are going to be lower.
So we might also consider that,hey, this dog has experienced a
lot of triggers in a shortamount of time and so then
therefore their behavior isgoing to be different, but we
might also see something that ismore maybe we could call it
like an acute trigger stacking,where you step out the door and
then another dog just appearssuddenly.

(32:06):
So you begin your walk with yourdog, already perhaps having a
reaction, and then you continuethe walk because, let's say,
this is a client.
Hey, I live in an apartmentcomplex.
I have to get my dog out for apotty break.
I can't just turn around and goback in my house, I need to get
my dog out.
So we have a dog who alreadyreacted and then it, you know,

(32:28):
it's going down the pathway andthen it happens to hear a
neighbor dog that's reallyreacting to it from that dog's
apartment, like maybe it's patioor the window and it's really,
you know, reacting there.
And then the dog gets triggeredagain, and then they're
continuing and they finally makeit to their big grassy space
where the dog is supposed torelieve itself.
And then you have a dog who thedog normally wouldn't react to.

(32:50):
Let's say, for this particulardog it's a little dog and this
dog usually only reacts to largedogs, but there's this little
dog that's here and now the dogreacts to it and it's because it
experienced those two othertriggers shortly beforehand,
which then is naturally going tolower that dog's tolerance and
thresholds.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Let's talk more about that.
So, helping clients understandresiliency because that's a big
factor here.
When we're talking aboutmultiple stressors in the
environment or triggers that canhappen over the course of a day
, over time do you do work withyour clients to help the dogs
that have poor stress resiliencyand for the sake of this
episode, we'll kind of defineresiliency as the ability to

(33:31):
cope with stress and come backto a state of homeostasis.
You know, after experiencingthat stressor, some dogs and
people do really well with itand some have a tough time.
So in those dogs that reallyhave a difficult time, they're
showing high signs of anxiety orstress, displacement behaviors,
things that signal the dog isexperiencing a state of stress

(33:51):
or extreme stress in someexamples, for sometimes a day or
two after.
What do you do to help thosedogs?
Do you look at meds?
Do you look at particularexercises?

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, it could be either one of those things, and
I think it also depends on theresources available to that
individual client, because wecan come in as trainers and say,
well, you know, I know you livein an apartment, but we're just
going to need you to put yourdog in a car four times a day
and drive it somewhere realquiet so it could go to the
bathroom.
That's a big ask for people.

(34:23):
It's a big ask, a big routinechange as well.
So it depends on the resourcesavailable to that client and I
always try to find options thatwork for them.
So we go over lots of optionsand then see, okay, well, what
is most doable for you?
So I want to start with that,because if the human end is not
able to do the things, thenwe're just going to be going in

(34:43):
circles.
So a lot of times, breaks fromstress do make a very, very big
difference, which is why a lotof trainers will suggest, hey,
maybe just don't put your dog inthat environment.
But that's easier said thandone, and so rest from breaks is
really, really helpful, and Ioften like to recommend more
things that the dog can dodowntime or activities that they

(35:05):
could do inside of the home,too, is fun, so sometimes we'll
play.
We might just do training gamesin the home.
That might be, and even I'mcalling it a game.
We might practice like looseleash walking and just looping
all around the house.
So you're doing 20 minutes ofpracticing leash stuff with your
dog, but you just normally gooutside.
It could be something more funlike indoor doggy agility, where
we're working on like jumpingup on, you know, the ottoman and

(35:26):
crawling under the table ordoing something kind of more fun
.
If they needed to again givetheir dogs some sort of
stimulation that didn't involvethem needing to, you know, be
outside and be in a reallystressful situation, it might be
just increasing.
Puzzle toys.
Puzzle toys are chews.
I think chews are also really,really, really important for
dogs in terms of ways for themto relieve stress, so this might

(35:47):
be a chew that they canactually ingest.
It could also be a Kong, astuffed Kong that they're using.
But I like to really balanceout anything that seems more
stressful, that involves morearousal, to things that are much
calmer and I guess, on thatother note, now that I am
talking about this, nose workgames are also really fun for

(36:09):
dogs because it's a way for themto use their bodies and their
mind, but it doesn't necessarilyinvolve a lot of stress or
arousal.
So those are some of theactivities that I will encourage
my clients to do if the dogneeds to have more of a break.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
And I love that you mentioned the different forms of
enrichment or even chewing.
I was just out in the UK andSarah Fisher had a really great
presentation on her ACE, freework and getting the dogs
engaged in that kind ofenrichment activity but using
different muscles even just howthey chew something, whether
it's with the rear molars or thefront teeth is really
fascinating.
She does a great job explainingwhy that can make a difference
for some dogs.
You know whether it's using thejaw muscles or the nose or the

(36:54):
eyes or how they're moving theirbody.
It's to help with this, allthis stuff with dogs that are
having a tough time coping outthere, so excellent.
So I love that we're kind ofdiving into the both the
interior and exterior factors ofthe dog in this situation.
So I love that we're kind ofdiving into both the interior
and exterior factors of the dogin this situation.
So in that regard, let's shiftto criteria and I have to
pronounce that because my RhodeIsland accent comes out

(37:14):
sometimes I have a tough timesaying that Criteria because I
feel like idea and car andBoston, like my accent Anyways.
So criteria, understanding that.
So well, let's explain, just incase somebody is not familiar
with that term, in the trainingconcept.
What does that mean?
Criteria in training.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Can I circle back just because I thought about
something really important abouthelping dogs that when you
mentioned, okay, the dog isleaving the house and it's
feeling really stressed, and howdo we help them when they have
been trigger stacked.
I think that that's importantbecause I was giving a lot of
suggestions.
Well, here's what you do whenthe dog is already inside of the
home or you're trying to helpthe dog come down from

(38:00):
experience that type of stress,and this also does play into
criteria as well.
So I think we could reallyeasily segment into that when
the dog is feeling more stressed, it's over thresholds or
trigger stacked, whatever wewant to say, even if the dog
isn't having a full-blownreaction, but we're seeing those
signs that this is a dog that'sexperiencing more stress when
they're out and about.

(38:21):
I will always have some corebehaviors that we have taught
the dog, and the dog knows itpretty darn well, and sometimes
I refer to these as justfoundation behaviors.
Some people call them likefundamentals, really, whatever
you want to think of, but theseare skills that my clients of

(38:44):
reactive dogs are practicing andknow pretty darn well before we
start to expose them too muchto the things that they are
really worried about and some ofthese skills are also really
easy skills for them to do, oreasy or fun.
I often will ask my clientslike what's your dog's easiest
behavior or the thing that theyknow the best?
They're really eager to do itus they're really eager to do it

(39:05):
.
Those are things that, when thedog is starting to feel more
stressed, we go back to justasking for really easy behaviors
with the dog.
Or sometimes I describe it astrying to recenter your dog.
And you can recenter the dog byhaving familiar behaviors and
especially if you chain thosebehaviors together so that way
it becomes something that's avery familiar pattern to the dog
.
So, for example, we might dosome treat chases where we do

(39:28):
ping pong back and forth andthen the dog comes in the center
and we ask for a really quicksit or maybe a hand target Again
a very brief behavior that'svery easy for the dog to do and
then we go back to some treatchases and then we might go back
to again some sort of easybehavior for the dog to do, and
then we might go back to againsome sort of easy behavior for
the dog to do and then we mightend that with, like perhaps, a

(39:49):
treat scatter and then we moveon.
And that can be really helpfulfor those dogs because we are
running through a routine thathas been really well rehearsed
and it's very familiar to them.
And I think that familiarity isthe part that's really critical
for dogs when you're throwingthem in environments that are
less familiar or that are reallycritical for dogs.
When you're throwing them inenvironments that are less
familiar or that are reallyoverwhelming for them, we need
to give them something that isfamiliar, because that is what,

(40:13):
from my experience, it bringsthem back down.
It kind of gets themre-centered.
They're eating, they're payingattention, they're engaging with
their handler, and that oftenthen reduces stress too, because
we're giving them somethingthat they know really, really
well in that time.
And so that's one of thestrategies that I'll use with my
clients.
When they start to see thattheir dog got trigger-stacked on

(40:34):
a walk but they can't really gohome yet because maybe they're
far away from home, so it'sgetting home is not really
feasible right away, then whatdo you do then?
So I often have built in littleroutines like that for my
clients.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
Almost like a pattern game, but with a well kind of
is a pattern game if you'rerepeating it, of course, but
it's really designed to put insomething the dog knows is a
really positive experience inthose sessions.
Right, love it.
So criteria in that case, withthat in mind, let's talk about

(41:08):
maybe you can think of a caseexample where you really had to
think through the nuances ofsetting criteria and maybe give
us that as an example if youcould think of something off the
top of your head.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
And when you were askingearlier okay, well, what is
criteria?
Or how do we define it, I thinkI define it as has the
requirement for reinforcementbeen met, and that might sound a
little trainer lingo, so youmight also, if it's a client,
they might be thinking should Igive my dog a treat right now?
Did the dog respond the way Iwas hoping for it to respond?

(41:40):
And should I feed this rightnow?
And so that's part of it, right?
Okay, well, what behavior arewe deciding that we are going to
reinforce?
And if we're using food, whichbehavior are we going to feed?
So criteria is something thatneeds to be kept very fluid, and
so I guess some good examplesfrom some cases.

(42:01):
Is that really common?
Is that when I go in and I workwith a client, I will often ask
them so what do you do rightnow when your dog notices
another dog?
What behavior are you askingfor and how do you reinforce it?
And these are things that Ioften like to see in action,
because what I'm looking for isA how well does the dog know the

(42:24):
behavior?
Because that's important.
And if the dog does indeed knowthe behavior pretty darn well
and I'm noticing that it's thenunable to respond to the
behavior that it normally canrespond to, meaning it's not
quite as fluent.
The response is not quite asfluent, then I know that we

(42:45):
might be asking too much of thedog.
So, for example, I often liketo test this out inside of the
dog's home first, when thereisn't any sort of trigger around
, and I test out the dog'sresponsiveness.
So, for example, let's just saywe have a client and they say
well, when my dog sees anotherdog, I have taught it to orient
in my direction and check inwith me.
And so I said, okay, great,would love to see what this

(43:08):
looks like inside of your homefirst and I'm looking for how
quickly can the dog respond tothis?
How quickly can they check in?
Are they readily eating?
If they're using a marker word,you know, what does that timing
look like, and so forth.
But then it's really common thatwhen we get out and about and
we are expecting the dog to dothe same thing again because we

(43:30):
have set that criteria of well,when you see this distraction,
the behavior that I'm going tofeed, it's only going to be if
you look at the dog and thenlook all the way back at me.
But for many dogs that criteriais too high, meaning you're
asking too much for your dog inthat moment.
And that's where a lot ofclients get stuck, because they
think, well, now the dog's justnot responding.

(43:52):
And they think, well, now itjust doesn't want, it's not food
motivated, because now it's notwilling to do this for the
treat.
So that's what the issue ishere, and by just changing what
behavior they decide toreinforce, that just makes all
the difference in the world, andthat is essentially changing
your criteria but also loweringit.

(44:12):
So, hey, let's make this easierfor your dog, and instead of
expecting your dog to notice adog and look all the way back at
you, why don't we just startwith the dog, notice the dog
first, that's all we're going tochange.
And then, nine times out of 10,that dog is eating, it's
responding, it's staying underthreshold, all the things that
we want and so that's where youget this interplay between

(44:34):
criteria, you know, thresholdsand so forth is that we need to
always be very fluid with allthose things, because when you
are working with a reactive dog,the environment is constantly
changing.
It is not a sterile environment, and so you always need to be
quick on your feet and to have alot of different ways in which
you can adjust what you aredoing.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
I love that you're making that distinction too.
So do you do anything to helpclients or do you break it up
into?
This is what we do if your dogis over threshold, or this is
how we can use food as adistractor and work on those
things individually so itdoesn't get muddied Cause if
we're starting to be like thisis how you reinforce this
desirable behavior, but this iswhat you do if your dog is
distracted.

(45:15):
This is you know.
So that can get confusing,especially if many of those
things require food or we'reasking to use food.
So do you spend a lot of timeon each component food or we're
asking to use food.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
So do you spend a lot of time on each component?
I do, yeah, I.
I like to prepare my clients,truly, and and I want to prepare
the dog too.
So we do review a lot of thesethings ahead of time, and I do.
I guess we can call it.
We'll call it stages, so I willexplain to my clients if you
are in this situation with yourdog, history tells us that

(45:47):
that's going to be too difficultfor them.
And again, these are becausewe've evaluated the dog, we've
understood what their you knowthresholds, triggers are, all
these sorts of things.
So I will give them reallyspecific feedback.
If you're in this situation withyour dog, you are going to ask
for this behavior or you aregoing to use food in this way,
and it might not be somethingthat we would consider more

(46:09):
operant, meaning like, okay, wewant the dog to notice the dog,
and then we're going to mark andthen feed.
We might just jump intomanagement mode, which is you're
not going to ask the dog foranything, you're just going to
take food and you are eithergoing to just throw it on the
ground or you're just going totake food and you are either
going to just throw it on theground, or you're just going to
lure the dog, you know, in someother direction as you're

(46:29):
feeding it, and that is a oneway that you can.
You know, obviously, lowercriteria, but it's also a way
where we are making this reallyeasy for the dog to do something
else besides reacting, and youcan use food as a management
tool in those scenarios reactingand you can use food as a
management tool in thosescenarios.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, I think it's when we talk about as trainers.
We talk about things when we'reusing food, like capturing,
shaping, luring or just straightcounter conditioning we might.
It's making me realize just howmuch we have to help clients
understand the differences ifwe're using food in that kind of
process.
So, like, a distractiontechnique could become
problematic if it's usedincorrectly, but the client

(47:10):
might not understand.
Wait a minute, I'm using foodhere to distract or is it to
reinforce?
Or am I just capturing behavior?
Like they're not going to knowthe nuances?
So, yeah, do you have any tipsfor that?
Like, do you go into theterminology?
Or just like, this is why wewouldn't use food here.
Do you explain, like, why, likeluring a dog towards something
scary would be you know not theright use of food?
But then they're like, wait,I'm just distracting and then,

(47:32):
oh wait, I'm reinforcing thisbehavior.
Do you see a lot of confusionthere when we're starting to use
food in so many different ways?

Speaker 2 (47:37):
I do, I do, and that's why it's really important
to help them understand thedifferences between that and I.
It's a really really commonthing that you hear with people
with reactive dogs is I don'twant to just be distracting my
dog with the food.
It's like such the common thingthat I hear in regards to that.
Well, I'm just distracting himwith the treats, and then when I

(47:59):
look at the process that'soccurring, I'm like I help them
understand.
Are you asking your dog for abehavior and then you were
therefore reinforcing thatbehavior with food?
That's not distracting the dog,whereas if the dog barely even
had a chance to perceive thatanother dog happens to appear in
the environment and you'realready feeding them, then that

(48:20):
is distracting the dog and thatcan very easily backfire.
Because if we're trying tothink of doing more effective
counter conditioning, but theyare presenting the food first
and just feeding the dog and thedog has not had a chance to
even be aware that there'sanother dog in the environment,
the food can then predict well,shoot, I'm eating this, but oh

(48:41):
my gosh, now a dog appeared.
And I think that really undoesthe power of food rewards if
they are presented in that way.
But if they're presented morein a way of, for example, some
treat chases or some just treatscatters and stuff.
I tend to find that that worksreally well.
If dogs are used to eatingtreats in a variety of ways is

(49:04):
another way that I'll describethis to my clients are, like you
know, there's a variety of waythat your dogs can be eating
treats and here's all thedifferent ways and here's why we
might choose one or an overanother.
So I might just be like nowrambling on and not quite coming
back to your original question.
It was like okay, using food asmanagement, we're helping them
understand, like the differencesbetween the treats.

(49:26):
I think another big one for meis that the vast majority of my
clients were using a marker word, marker words or a clicker,
some sort of marker signal.
I don't use that when I'm usingfood as management because
there's nothing specific I'mtrying to mark.
So that's a really bigdistinction that hey, you're
just going to throw the food onthe ground, you're not marking
anything, whereas when we arelooking for more specific

(49:48):
behaviors, then we are indeedmarking and feeding those things
.
So that's, I think, one of thebiggest distinctions.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Yeah, that's a good way.
I'm sure that's very helpful.
And speaking of markers andfood, and as we're going through
all the different ways of usingfood, cueing and capturing and
shaping all this other stuff, doyou find that only certain
clients you're going to usesomething like a location
specific marker with somethingmore advanced like that?

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Well, I just don't tell them that it's a location
specific marker.
Again it's here's all the waysthat your dog can eat food and
why some ways are better thanothers or more effective.
So I will describe things.
So, for example, treat chases Ireally like because I find that
a lot of dogs, when they'restressed, getting them in motion

(50:32):
is the best thing that you cando for them.
I'm not always a big fan ofhaving dogs be stationary, and
so I do find that for again,some of these cases that I work
with, they will tell me well, Itried, using the food, you know,
I tried to do, or even, forexample, I do the treat scatter,
you know, after they've noticedanother dog, and then I come in

(50:53):
and I watch that dog's bodylanguage and I'm like when your
dog is starting to feel stressed, they don't pause and go sniff
the ground on their own.
Your dog picks up the pace andwants to be in motion.
So if I see a dog, in terms ofthe way that they naturally
respond to stress, be one of itprobably wants to be more in
motion, I'm not gonna choose todo a treat scatter at that

(51:16):
moment, because I feel like thatparticular dog might even find
that to be more aversive, moreaversive way of getting food
than if you were to do sometreat chases so they can be in
motion, get further away fromthe thing that's causing them
stress, and then maybe do atreat scatter.
So it's the way that you feedcan be very impactful to the dog
.
So treat chases can be very fun.

(51:37):
I do cue treat chases because Iwant the dog to know when it's
going to happen, and I'm veryclear that treat chases have one
word and a treat scatter has adifferent word and when I'm
going to mark, simply mark andfeed eye contact, that's another
word.
But I just call them all cues.
So, like that way, the clientdoesn't actually know that it's

(51:59):
a location specific marker.
I don't think that they need toknow all that, I think it just
goes over their head.
But they do really understandthe concept of oh, now I want
let my dog know that we're gonnado treat chases now and then
you can use the treat chases,for example, in more of that
operant sense.
So let's say we are walking andwe're on one side of the street,

(52:19):
there's another dog that'sgonna pass us on the other side
of the street and if you changehow you deliver the food reward,
I do often find that that canhelp keep dogs under threshold.
So that's often where I mightuse treat chases.
If I know that that proximityfor this individual dog is
probably cutting it real close,like their threshold is really
thin in that moment.

(52:40):
I do find that treat chases toget past that other dog rather
than feeding to the mouth orjust feeding like dropping it on
the ground right below theirnose.
I do find that that's moreeffective, that I can keep dogs
who might be going overthreshold.
I can prevent that by justsimply how I'm reinforcing the
behavior.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
Yeah, and as you're talking through all of this, I
can imagine there's a lot ofcoaching, of course, because
you're looking for all thesedetails where the food is, how
the food's being delivered, theenvironment.
So I can't think of any othertypes of cases in the sort of
aggression case umbrella dogdisplaying undesirable behaviors
towards things in theenvironment than leash
reactivity.
Because when you think about,like, if I'm working with a dog

(53:19):
that's guarding their food ball,there's not a whole lot of
mechanical skills as compared toleash reactivity, right?
So do you find coaching throughvideo format really helpful?
So the client sends you videobecause I know you do some
remote consults too.
So do you find that that's theway to go now and do you have
any new pro tips or anythingthat you've seen with technology

(53:40):
in that regard?

Speaker 2 (53:42):
Oh, good question, Well one.
I just want to say thank youfor recognizing that leash
reactivity is, in my opinion,the most complex behavior issue
to treat, because you areworking with the dog in public
and there are so many conditionsthat you are trying to work
with and around and it's verydifficult and that's why people

(54:02):
struggle with it, becausethere's so many things that go
into it, and so I do asignificant amount of coaching
with my clients.
If possible, I always love todo it in person because that is
where I get the most information.
But I will say, with my clients, some of the things that's
really helpful for me to see ifI'm working with them remotely

(54:24):
are the environment, in additionto what they are doing with
their dog, because, again, theenvironment is such a what they
are doing with their dog,because, again, the environment
is such a big factor in thesecases, and so I'm looking for
anything that could be occurringin the environment, but I think
more specifically what theenvironment actually looks like.
So there's a big differencebetween a suburban street where

(54:44):
you have like pretty widestreets and designated sidewalks
, and a house that's more inlike a rural community where
there's no sidewalks and thestreets are often more narrow.
That's a big difference inenvironment that most people
don't think of of.
Hey, I'm across the street fromthis dog, and what most people
think of across the street mightmean, like you know, I'm not

(55:05):
the best at measurements, butmaybe we'll say 60 feet, but
when you're in a ruralenvironment maybe that's only 25
feet.
That's a big difference.
That's half the distance.
That's a big difference when itcomes to how close your dog
might be to something.
So the environment is huge andI'm always very interested to
know with the client when I'mworking with them remotely, like
what that environment actuallylooks like and so forth.

(55:26):
And so I, when I'm working withthem remotely, I will do several
different things.
So, yes, I do like for them tosend me, you know, video clips
of these types of things.
But I have found that some ofthe most valuable coaching for
my remote clients is teachingthem the concept of working with
their dog around a distractionthat's not another dog at first

(55:50):
and how they should be adjustingtheir criteria.
Because, again, that's thatconcept for so many of our
clients that they get reallystuck with, and a lot of times
I'll just practice with thefront door being open.
Hey, we're going to practiceyou know XYZ behavior and we're
going to use your front door.
Hey, we're going to practiceyou know XYZ behavior and we're
going to use your front door.

(56:10):
And I really help walk themthrough the different steps of
this, in the sense of if youwere just to have your dog
unleashed and you just fling thefront door wide open and your
dog is standing right there andyou ask for a behavior, your
dog's response is probably goingto be pretty slow, which is not
what we're looking for.
You know, when we are askingfor a behavior and we want the

(56:30):
dog's response to be prettyquick, especially if we have the
goal of eventually leaving thehouse.
And so I show clients how doyou work around this?
What if you just cracked thedoor and then you were standing
15 feet away from that door withyour dog?
What's the difference in yourdog's response?
And can we be reinforcing thesebehaviors, because I'm looking
for quick responses?

(56:51):
And then can we go a little bitcloser to the door?
And then, okay, what if we openthe door a little bit more?
And so, again, it's always thisinterplay of like increasing and
decreasing criteria, so thatway they're seeing oh, I get it.
This is what my dog looks likewhen you know they're getting a
little bit more stuck.
This is what my dog looks likewhen you know they're getting a
little bit more stuck.
This is what my dog looks likewhen they are responding very

(57:12):
quickly, and those really quickresponses are really important
when it comes to getting yourdog out and about.
If they are not respondingquickly to you, then there's not
really a whole lot of point intrying to train out there,
because you're just either Ajust going to get a lot of
latent responses or, b thebehaviors aren't really useful,

(57:32):
because you can't call your dogaway from another dog and then
they end up reacting anyways.
So it's really important thatthey just understand how to work
around a distraction.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
It's really what I shifted tosort of as I was going through
my career working with thesekind of cases is, you know,
people want that sort of planlaid out for them or that
prescription.
You know, start at 20 yardsaway and for 20 minutes and feed
X amount of times with thisparticular treat, which is super

(58:02):
helpful and something we haveto help a lot of our.
It's like somebody, a trainerat the gym.
You know you're going to dothis, many pushups, this,
whatever exercise for somebodythat has never done it.
But at the same time we wantthem to be their own coaches,
because they really are coachingand helping their dog and they
have to understand how tonavigate and shift the criteria,
like you mentioned, you know,based on that environment.

(58:24):
I can't again think of any othertype of case where there's that
much needing to understand thenuances, how to shift things
like the distance, the duration,watching for the intensity, the
environmental factors, theinternal factors.
Out of all the types of cases,there's not many that compare to
leash reactivity.
So in that regard, to kind ofwrap things up here, I think a

(58:45):
lot of what we've been speakingabout seems so precision and be
like, oh my gosh, somebodylistening to the show is like,
oh, I've got to watch out forthis now and this and I've got
to really pay attention to thisbody language and it can feel
overwhelming.
But at the same time, again,out of all the types of cases
and you and I have even talkedabout this is that when we talk
about any problem behaviors, wedon't want to see rehearsal of
it.
So if it's like a dog guardingtheir food bowl, the last thing

(59:08):
we want is the client to keeppracticing sticking their hand
in the food bowl, doing thingswe don't recommend.
That's going to elicit thatresponse.
But leash reactivity isdifferent, because most of the
time you're still going to seeit once in a while.
Our goal is to reduce thefrequency, the intensity, help
the dog feel better, but it'ssomething that's almost
impossible to avoid, especiallyin some environments.
So talk us through that, aswell as the nuances of like,

(59:37):
maybe, breed, and how somebreeds are going to be.
It's normal for them to do someof the things they're doing,
and what are settingexpectations, I guess, is kind
of where I'm going with this.
What would you say?

Speaker 2 (59:44):
Yeah, well, when a dog is reacting on leash, then
we know that that is a behaviorthat's in their behavior
repertoire and we know that withthe right conditions, that dog
is going to go back to thatbehavior.
So it is impossible to justeliminate it from the dog's
behavioral repertoire.
So that is something that youknow.

(01:00:05):
I make sure that my clientsunderstand your dog is going to
react at some point again, it'sjust going to happen.
And that, I think, is helpsthem feel better, because I
think they know that their dogisn't supposed to react.
And then when their dog doesreact, they feel guilty or
they're, you know, feel ashamedbecause they feel like it's
something that they did.
And you know there's so manyemotions that our clients of

(01:00:26):
reactive dogs are having toexperience, and then it's on
full display in public.
So of course you're going tofeel, you know, more, more, like
all the eyes are on you.
So I do make sure that theyunderstand this is something
that, as you said, we candecrease the intensity, we can
decrease the frequency of thesebehaviors from occurring, but
it's still going to be there.
And then for some dogs, as youmentioned, like who might you

(01:00:50):
know be of a certain breed,vocalizing on leash is quite
normal, because vocalizing forthese dogs is quite normal.
So, okay, I guess I'll tell youabout one dog that I worked
with.
It was an Icelandic sheep dogand those dogs are extremely
vocal, they vocalize foreverything.
And I will admit I didn't havea lot of experience with those

(01:01:14):
dogs because in SouthernCalifornia they just weren't
very popular, so I didn't.
I mean, where am I going tocome across one?
This dog just vocalized forevery single reason that you can
think of, and so he felt okay.
Well, my dog is super reactiveon leash and, yeah, he was doing
a lot of barking on leash.
But guess what, when this dogwas not on a leash, it was also

(01:01:36):
very vocal about everything.
Hi, I'm happy to see you, I'mgoing to vocalize.
Hi, I want to play, I'm goingto vocalize.
Oh, I'm excited, dog, I'm goingto vocalize.
So it became almost impossiblefor me to use not vocalizing as
a metric of success, of thinking, well, he's not vocalizing, so

(01:01:57):
we're under a threshold.
I just kept working with thedog hey, okay, he's barking, but
he's eating, let's just keepworking.
And I had to really change myown assumptions about what we
think about certain dogs, likewhether they really are under
threshold or not or kind of whatmetrics we're using to
determine that.
Because there are many breedsof dogs where it's very natural
for them to vocalize.

(01:02:17):
I've also seen, for example,german Shepherd, german
Shepherds or Malinois, who theywill naturally alert to
something initially byvocalizing Doesn't mean that
they carry on.
Some of them, of course, carryon, but it's very normal for
them to let out a few barks.
In that moment would I say, ohmy gosh, he's over threshold.
We need to, you know, increasedistance by 50 feet?

(01:02:37):
Probably not.
I'd probably just stay rightwhere I am and just continue
working the dog right through it.
And kind of same thing withcoonhound that I worked with,
that just again vocalized, but Ididn't really gather that he
was under really a significantamount of distress because he
was still able to do.
You know, there was so manyother indicators that he felt

(01:02:59):
good about what we were doing,but he was also vocalizing as we
were doing some of these things.
And again, that's becausethat's what they're bred for, a
lot of these hunting dogs, youknow, that's how they're
alerting, that they're on thechase or the scent of something.
And so I think we also need tonormalize vocalizations in dogs.
You can't expect to take yourdog in public and then it never

(01:03:19):
makes a peep.
Sometimes they are just goingto vocalize.
That is normal.
And again, I think you knowthat goes back to knowing your
dog.
You know do they vocalize for avariety of reasons, even when
they're happy yeah, what you'reseeing on leash could be just
part of that.
Or if you have a dog who isindeed pretty darn quiet until
they get really worried aboutsomething and then they vocalize

(01:03:40):
, okay, well, that's different.
So that's why we're like,really understanding your
individual dog is the mostimportant piece here.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Yes, it's a really great way to wrap up this topic
because I think a lot of the petguardians out there will feel
more understood as well, as thedogs are going to feel more
understood now after hearingwhat you just talked about.
So I would also love to hearmore about what you're up to.
I know we have the dog guardiancourse.
That is out because it's at thetime of the recording.
We're working on it, but it'llbe out by the time this episode

(01:04:11):
is released.
So and.
Jessica is doing the leashreactivity section of that
course, so check it out.
It'll be on theaggressivedogcom website.
What else are you up to thesedays, jessica?
What other projects or otherexciting things you got going on
?

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
Yeah, so I have my leash reactivity for
professionals mentorship, andthat is a really comprehensive
course that I designed for dogprofessionals.
So dog trainers, dog behaviorconsultants, even, I would say
well, shelter staff and evenjust behavior enthusiasts who
really want a super deep diveinto leash reactivity how to

(01:04:48):
take leisure activities frombeginning to end.
So that is really probably likemy most like flagship thing
that I do in the sense ofteaching that, and I have
different versions of it.
I have an on-demand version andthen other versions where I
have a small cohort of studentsand we go through it together
and they get live mentorshipsessions with me.
So that is one, and I also do afair amount of mentoring of

(01:05:09):
other trainers.
So I will help them mainly withtheir tricky cases.
If they need help with a casethat they're feeling really
stuck on or maybe even a casethat they want to prepare for,
that's another thing that I doquite a bit of.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Amazing.
What's the best way for peopleto get ahold of you?

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
You can get everything on my website, which
is jessicawheatcraftcom.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Fantastic, Jessica.
Thank you so much for joiningus again and I look forward to
seeing you in the future.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
A big thank you to Jessica for sharing her deep
expertise and compassion aroundworking with reactive dogs.
Her thoughtful approach totraining, balancing science,
empathy and practical experience, is a powerful reminder of the
importance of meeting dogs andtheir humans where they are.
If you'd like to learn moreabout Jessica's work or her

(01:06:01):
mentorship programs, be sure tocheck out the links in the show
notes.
And if you're ready to godeeper into understanding and
helping dogs with aggression,visit AggressiveDogcom.
Whether you're a professionalor a dedicated dog guardian,
you'll find everything from theAggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive program of its
kind, to expert-led webinars,informative articles and the

(01:06:23):
Aggression and Dogs Conferencehappening from September 26th
through 28th 2025 in Charlotte,north Carolina.
Happening from September 26ththrough 28th 2025 in Charlotte,
North Carolina, with bothin-person and virtual options.
And don't forget to check outour Help for Dogs with
Aggression bonus episodes, whichare solo shows where I walk you
through real-world strategiesfor issues like resource
guarding, fear-based aggression,territorial behavior and more.

(01:06:45):
Just hit, subscribe or head tothe show notes for more info.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends,
I love it.