Dog Parks, Dominance, and Deep Dives into Dog Behavior with Dr. Marc Bekoff

Step into the world of canine behavior with the distinguished Dr. Marc Bekoff, a professor emeritus of ecology and evolutionary biology. This episode takes you on a captivating journey as we delve into the emotional landscape of our furry friends, the impact of confinement on their behavior, and the fascinating dynamics of dog-human relationships. We don't stop there, we also tackle the often ignored segment of free-range and feral dogs globally, citing Dr. Bekoff's invaluable experiences with the Jane Goodall Institute and his insightful publications.

We also discuss the controversial world of dog parks, examining the fluid relationships among dogs and between dogs and humans. We debunk common misconceptions about dominance in animals and discuss the misuse of the term 'alpha'. In anticipation of Dr. Bekoff's upcoming book, Dogs Demystified: An A-to-Z Guide To All Things Canine, we provide a sneak peek into the wealth of knowledge it promises. This conversation with Dr. Bekoff is an eye-opening session that deepens our understanding of canine behavior, reminding us to respect their emotions and choices. Join us on this enlightening journey and let's explore the world through a dog's eyes together.

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ABOUT MARC:

Marc Bekoff is professor emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder. He has published 31 books (or 41 depending on you count multi-volume encyclopedias), won many awards for his research on animal behavior, animal emotions (cognitive ethology), compassionate conservation, and animal protection, has worked closely with Jane Goodall, is co-chair of the ethics committee of the Jane Goodall Institute, and is a former Guggenheim Fellow. He also works closely with inmates at the Boulder County Jail. In June 2022 Marc was recognized as a Hero by the Academy of Dog Trainers. His latest books are The Animals' Agenda: Freedom, Compassion, and Coexistence in the Human Age (with Jessica Pi

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everything from emotions inanimals, sentience, aggression
in ethology and even the dreadedD word or dominance.
Mark is a professor emeritus ofecology in evolutionary biology

(00:26):
at the University of Colorado,boulder.
He has published 31 books, or41, depending on if you count
the multivolume encyclopedias,won many awards for his research
on animal behavior, animalemotions, compassionate
conservation and animalprotection.
Mark has also worked closelywith Jane Goodall as a co-chair
of the ethics committee of theJane Goodall Institute, as well

(00:49):
as a former Guggenheim fellow.
His latest books are theAnimals Agenda Freedom,
compassion and Coexistence inthe Human Age, co-arthured with
Jessica Pierce.
Canine Confidential why Dogs Dowhat they Do.
And Unleashing your Dog a FieldGuide to Giving your Canine
Companion the Best Life Possible, also co-Arthured with Jessica

(01:11):
Pierce.
And he also publishes regularlyfor Psychology Today.
Mark and Jessica's most recentbook, a Dog's World Imagining
the Lives of Dogs in a WorldWithout Humans, was published by
Princeton University Press inOctober of 2021.
Dogs Demystified and A to ZGuide to All Things Canine will

(01:32):
be published by New WorldLibrary in June 2023, which is
actually probably out by now atthe time of this recording and
the second edition of theEmotional Lives of Animals will
be published in March of 2024.
In 1986, mark won the Master'sAge Graded Tour de France.
His homepage is markwithacm-a-r-c.

(01:53):
Beckoffcom, and if you areenjoying the buddy and the dog,
you can support the podcast bygoing to aggressivedogcom, where
there's a variety of resourcesto learn more about helping dogs
with aggression issues,including the upcoming
Aggression in Dogs conferencehappening from September 29th
through October 1st 2023 inChicago, illinois, with both
in-person and online options.

(02:16):
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression in Dogs Master
course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
Hey, everyone, welcome to thebitey end of the dog.
I have a super special guestthis week, dr Mark Beckoff and I

(02:36):
have been following his workfor years I think many of us in
the dog training industry have,as well as beyond.
I was talking to Kim Brophyyesterday.
We were talking about you andwe were kind of I was picking
her up.
I'm like if you were to asksome questions to Mark, what
would you ask?
And you know, kim is an appliedethologist and she's definitely
in the ethology field as well,so she's like you know that's a

(02:57):
good question.
He's kind of one of the lasttrue ethologists.
Is what?
she called you so much respectto you, mark, and welcome to the
show.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Oh, it's great to be here.
I'm thrilled.
I like free ranging discussionsabout wonderful dogs.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
I'm excited for this, so I'd first like to jump into
your focuses on ethology andbehavioral ecology or
evolutionary biology, but I'dlove to get your thoughts on for
dog trainers or people workingwith dogs.
If you had a new trainer andyou're like, all right, this is
the sciences that are importantto understanding behavior, what
would they be for you?

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Oh, wow.
I mean, simply put, I would askthem to pay attention to the
good science of, say, animalemotions and animal cognition.
You know, focusing maybe ondogs, but not really.
I mean, dogs are mammals andwhat we're learning about
animals other than dogs isreally applicable and sounds

(03:57):
unscientific.
But the other two things Iwould stress would be pay
attention to common sense andalways treat your dog with the
most respect you can.
They're living sentient beingsand they care about what happens
to them.
If you will, but you know thatwould be it just weaving in the

(04:20):
latest science and common sense.
And also and I'm sure you and Iwill talk about it something
I'm really interested in becauseI'm a field biologist and
oftentimes you can see similarstudies on the same animals that
produce very different results.
Pay attention to the context ofthe studies, because it's not

(04:41):
that the science is bad, butdifferent dogs are studied in
different labs using differentmethods, data are analyzed
differently, so sometimesdifferent labs disagree.
It's not because one lab isdoing better work than the other
although there are differences,to be honest but it's more
context, and I've written a lotabout this in terms of when I've

(05:05):
partaken in lab studies aroundthe world.
They're all good, but you know,every now and again somebody
comes in and says, oh, my doghad a bad day.
Should I partake in theexperiment?
And I always say no, but talkto the person doing the
experiment.
Or you know, one woman came into a place where they're using
food as a reward and she wasrunning late, so her dog had

(05:27):
just eaten.
And I'm not saying that that'sgood or bad, it's more, it can
influence the results.
The other thing is payattention to the fact that
really 75% of the billion or sodogs on the planet are free
ranging or feral on their own.
So a lot of the data that comefrom studies in labs come from

(05:48):
home dogs and there are there'sa lot of similarities.
But sometimes people will say,well, dogs don't do this or
can't do this, and and I've seenwhat they're talking about
countless times, even at justfree ranging dog parks.
So I mean just being carefulabout how we use the information
.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yes, and I love that you mentioned.
You know the vast majority ofdogs on the planet are not in a
pet home, right?
They're free ranging or youknow they're out on the street
somewhere and so I talk aboutthat a lot.
I mean, there's so much we canlearn about seeing those dogs in
that environment, but whatbehavior to expect in dogs in
most cases, and then we put theminto home environments and just

(06:29):
how much that environment canimpact their behavior.
So how much would you say weshould separate that when we're
looking at it, or should wereally be looking at much more
of these, those free ranging,feral or whatever category of
dog you want to put them into?
But how much should we bestudying those dogs to apply to
pet homes?
Or should we, because there'ssuch a significant environmental
difference and then we can getinto the rabbit hole of certain

(06:53):
breeds that we're selectingbehaviors for that are more
likely to be in a homeenvironment.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, that's a great question, I mean.
The other big message, ofcourse, is that there's
individual differences, evenamong dogs when they you know,
when their eyes open.
I remember when I did my fieldwork on coyotes and I've also
seen wild wolves when they comeout of their den at three weeks
of age.
They're very, very differentpersonalities.
There's bold animals, there'sshy individuals, there's some

(07:21):
who are so obnoxious you hopeyou never see them again.
You wish them well, but yourquestions are really good one.
So I think what we really needto do is take into account the
context in which these studiesare done Are they home dogs, are
they in labs, are they at dogparks or free ranging and pay
careful attention to how datawere collected.

(07:45):
And this is not to be overscientific, it's just more to
say, it's an evaluation of whatthe results mean.
But I think the big question ofwho dogs are, you know they all
have the same common wolfancestor and what their
behavioral potential is, theircognitive abilities, which

(08:05):
simply means how they learncertain things and use that
information to adapt todifferent situations, and also
their emotions.
But also, you know, people say,well, you know, male dogs
aren't good fathers, but wedon't know that really for
captive animals, because usuallythe male isn't around and there

(08:27):
are field studies showing thatthere is paternal as well as
what we call allopaternalbehavior, where there are
helpers, you know, who helpraise the children of the female
who gave birth.
That's what I find the mostexciting.
I mean, that question is themost exciting to me because it

(08:50):
shows that there's no the dog,there's no universal dog, and
when it comes down to trainingor teaching them or educating
them, what we want them to do,taking into account individual
differences in personalities isreally important.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yes, definitely, definitely.
So taking a step back andlooking at all of that that
you're saying, you know, from anethology lens, you know, I
think sometimes we need to helppet owners or pet guardians
understand, you know, thenatural behavior dogs and then
when we tried to put that intothe home environment or very
restricted environment, how muchthat can impact things from an
enrichment standpoint.

(09:25):
Can you talk us through that alittle bit and why it's
important against really, yes,it's important to look at the
individual dog but as well asall the factors that can
influence behaviors from thatethology lens.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, that's a great point, Because oftentimes the
dogs don't have the opportunityto express their, if you will,
behavioral potential.
They're so accustomed to beingwhat I call helicopter.
They're always told no, don'tdo this, don't do that, you know
.
So they get to the point wherethey don't even try.
They may be bored, they may bejust sort of what's going on in

(10:00):
their mind could simply be look,you know, I don't feel like
partaking in this experiment andI had some very well known
primatologist tell me some yearsago that he thinks that when
you're looking at great apes andmonkeys in the lab, sometimes
they just don't do somethingbecause they're bored or they
just don't feel like doing it.

(10:21):
It's not because they can't andother field primatologists have
seen these behavior patternsthat you can't get these captive
animals to do, you know, in thefield.
So I think that that's really,really important.
But it all comes back toknowing the dog as an individual
, knowing their personality,knowing what they've been

(10:42):
exposed to, knowing what theylike and don't like.
So once again, I think theexciting thing for me in the
future in dog research is payingattention to all those
variables and once again Istress that the science that's
done among captive animals.
You know, sometimes people gointo homes and watch the animals

(11:04):
.
Sometimes they're in labs.
It's not bad science, it's justextremely limited science, and
my own experience doing fieldwork on coyotes and other
animals is they too.
When you watch them incaptivity they're interesting,
but they're not often able toexpress their full behavioral
repertoire.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
And I would love to kind of expand on that, Since
the podcast is about aggressionin dogs.
I'd love to pick your brain on,you know, because you have such
broad experience seeing, youknow, studying animals and their
natural violence versuscaptivity.
And then we see dogs and in myexperience, dogs that are, you
know, not owned by somebody ornot in the confined environment,
are less likely to displayaggressive behaviors than we're

(11:49):
seeing in home environments,especially environments in which
they're much more controlledand restricted and sort of the
nature of aggression cases.
We're often asking for moremanagement, more restriction to
prevent the dog from bitinganybody.
So the dogs created more orless walks happen.
So can you expand on that?
Just sort of a broad overviewof what your thoughts are?
I'd love to go inside yourbrain.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Well, yeah, I mean across species.
When animals, individuals, feeltrapped, which could be leashed
, tethered, confined in a room,they get more assertive or more
aggressive, sometimes fear based.
They're just afraid they can'tget out of a situation.
So I think those concerns arereally true and you know you've

(12:31):
probably heard as well as I have, although I can't find a single
controlled study that you knowleashed dogs are more assertive
or aggressive and when they'reawfully leash, they're fine.
I think part of it is that theyfeel free and they're happier.
But I think part of it is theyfeel more in control of what
they're able to do.
You know, if another dog jumpson them and they're not sure

(12:55):
whether the other dog'sintentions are to play or to
dominate them or to be assertive, when they're free to get away
and not trapped, they don't haveto respond to what would be the
most adaptive response ifthey're tethered and trapped
would be to be aggressive.
And you see this in wild animals.

(13:16):
I've seen it in wild coyotesand wolves and foxes where when
they're pinned against the wallalthough there may not be a wall
but there's no way out theyexpress themselves in different
ways than when they can justfeel free to leave, and
oftentimes just leaving asituation is really the remedy.
The other animal goes okay, youdon't want to play, okay, fine,

(13:39):
you don't want to fight, okay,fine, okay, you don't want to do
what I want to do, fine, andthey'll find someone to find
another dog, in this case, to dowhat they want to do with them.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, the buzzword right now is agency or choice
and control on the environment.
Is that kind of?
What you're speaking of isbeing able to make choices in
the environment.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Absolutely.
It comes down to what peoplecall agency Freedom to make a
choice.
And then the other side is thatyou know your choice to do
certain things will be honored.
But if it's not honored that'swhen I say that's okay, it's not
okay.
But if it's not honored andyou're free to get away, then

(14:18):
you don't have to worry aboutbeing, if you will, pinned
against the wall and forced todo something that you might not
want to do.
I mean, wild animals really arevery good at avoiding, if you
will, interdog, inter coyotefighting and you know actual
physical contact.
That's why all the Displayshave evolved.

(14:39):
You know, as an ethologist, youknow you look at threat
displays, you look at submissionand appeasement behaviors
because they don't want to fight.
They do fight but you could bethe highest ranking wolf or
coyote or fox in a group and ifyou get injured fighting and you
can't reproduce, then you knowfrom an evolutionary point of

(15:00):
view, you're genetically dead.
So you kinda win the battle butyou lose the war in terms of
Passing your jeans on.
So I think, actually say thisto people a lot of dog parks
just watch what these animals do, you know.
Another thing is humansinterfere in what appears to be
something that could bedangerous and If you know dog

(15:23):
you're fluent in dog you couldbe pretty efficient in knowing
that something will or will notescalate into something that's
dangerous.
But you know, it's like withkids at some point they need to
learn to resolve their ownSocial conflicts.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
If you will, potential social conflicts you
mentioned a couple other wordsthat are controversial sometimes
in the dog training space,which are assertive and
dominance, which will get tolater in the on in the episode,
will revisit those.
I kinda want to pick your braina little bit more to about when
animals display a much higherlevel intensity of aggression so

(15:57):
they might do much.
Let's say, use a dog.
That's much more likely to bite, with much more damage and from
an evolutionary standpoint,from survival standpoint, that's
not very efficient from, Iguess, an ethology lens, right
or not desirable, because you'rerisking injury to yourself and
you know your fitness.
So why do you think that occurswith some of the pet dog cases

(16:20):
where we see significant levelsof aggression, damaging death to
another animal or even people,and maybe less so in nature?

Speaker 2 (16:29):
is that a correct?

Speaker 1 (16:30):
statement, or what are your thoughts?

Speaker 2 (16:32):
well yeah, I mean out in nature, if you will.
You know, wills will kill otherwolves, they'll kill intruders,
and they can and coyotes to,though, and they can have really
high intensity and violentfights within their group, but
they also have the opportunityto get away.
You know the individuals whoare being attacked.

(16:55):
I mean my take on not only homedogs, but even home dogs who go
free, ranging, running around,cuz you know them boulder and
there's lots of places wherethey can be free.
You have great dog parks.
Here is a lot of them just arechronically Stress, they're
chronically anxious, they'rechronically living in fear, if

(17:19):
you will, not necessarilybecause of what their humans do,
but just their daily routine.
They try to do something andthey're told no, they don't have
any idea of what is permissible, if you will.
So I think that that's one thinghow they reared, you know, for
rescue dogs and I know a lot ofrescue dogs, I've had some

(17:41):
rescue dogs you just don't knowanything about how they were
reared, their early periods ofsocialization, often none.
So I've seen dogs at dog parkswho came from the same litter,
from a box on the roadside inNew Mexico or Arizona or Texas,
where a lot of dogs come from incolorado and even when they're

(18:04):
three, four, five weeks of agethere are very large differences
in their personalities.
I'm assuming they were alltreated alike.
So it shows that there's a lotof any inborn, inherent
differences.
But I do think that a lot ofdogs have bad dog days, not
intentionally, and you wouldn'teven know it.

(18:24):
You know what I mean, becauseit comes from people not
understanding that these arefully sentient mammals, like we
are fully most of us at least,are fully sentient mammals and
their needs aren't met.
Yeah, I mean, they're on edge,I really feel that way.
And the dogs who I know Iwouldn't say I know the best

(18:46):
because I live in Boulder now,which of course is in a big city
, but the dogs down here theycan't run free.
There's cars, you know some dogsare trained well, but when I
lived in the mountains for yearson end, the dogs on my road and
the dogs who came down to sayhello to them, they were almost
never collared and rarelyleashed and you know they'd have

(19:09):
their spats.
But generally I just never sawwhat I would see on an average
day of the dog park or a hikingtrail where they looked around
and look to be always vigilant,always wondering, gosh, am I
doing something wrong?
Or you know, I really don'twant to get in this particular

(19:30):
dogs space, so I don't know ofany studies, although I think
that some of the studies that Iknow a free ranging and feral
dogs Show that these dogs, yeah,they have their spats and yeah,
they'll fight and yeah, they'llform dominance, relationships,
social relationships withintheir group, but there's just
not as much of the snapping andthe nervousness, if you will.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, yeah, I think you bring up an important point
to.
Something I implore a lot of mystudents to do is to observe
dogs in different environments,their social interactions, so
sometimes it's colored by ourown.
You know, lenses are looking atdogs, maybe just in our home or
in a dog daycare or in a doggroup class or so, observing
dogs in dog parks and feral dogsrunning around on the street

(20:17):
somewhere, and all becausethere's the differences
sometimes are profound in theircommunication skills.
Yeah, it's just fascinating towatch that.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
Right and it's a myth that these free ranging dogs
don't form close relationshipswith people.
I mean, there's been studies inBali and other places and I've
seen this in person in EastAfrica, china and India, where
these dogs like people it's notlike they're unsocialized, but
their interactions are just verydifferent because once again

(20:49):
they've got the freedom to comeand go.
Yeah, when I was in southernIndia, I walked through the
streets of the city from myhotel and sometimes I'd have
dogs following me.
Sometimes I wouldn't.
I'd always have treats.
I always give them food becausethey need the food.
Some of them don't have regularMealtimes.
I just never felt concerned.
I really felt like if a dog wastrying to get in my face and I

(21:13):
would just, you know, saysomething quietly like you know,
leave me alone.
No, you know, or go findanother dog, whatever you know.
Even if they didn't understandthe English, I wasn't yelling at
them and maybe they can sensethat.
You know they could sniff someof my fear, but they had the
freedom to go somewhere else.
That's excluding the caseswhere you've got dogs who have

(21:36):
psychopathologies just likehumans and Will attack you
because that's just the waythey've learned to adapt.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yes, yes, and I have this dream, someday mark, of
doing like a world tour with abunch of people like Ethologists
and trainers, just observingdogs in different places.
That's one of my favoritethings to do when I travel.
I go and I'm like don't show methis tourist sites, take me to
where the dogs are, becausethat's what I want to see.
I want to just watch the dogsbecause it's just so fascinating

(22:05):
to me, you know.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Well, I mean another experience I had and I and I was
looking up the name just nowand I can't find it and I think
it still exists.
But outside of Barcelonathere's a dog rescue center and
I'll try to find some moreinformation.
But when I went there therewere about 200 dogs and there
were separate.
There were a hundred dogs ineach enclosure.

(22:28):
They were large but runningfree.
When we pulled up there with myfriend, we got out of the car
and this Mass of dogs ran overto me and my friend, who was
hosting me, said you'll be okayand they're okay.
It just turned out that, yeah,when they first met one another,
they would sniff, sometimes agrowl, you know, an occasional

(22:50):
fight, but it was incredible tome to see this group of one was
a hundred dogs who just gotalong.
Yeah, they snapped here, theypeed here and there.
You know, sometimes one had abad day, but once again, you
know, I think it's because theyfelt the freedom, two things the
freedom to get away fromsomething that could be really

(23:11):
antagonistic and the freedom tofind Dogs who wanted to sniff
and play.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah so well, those that can envision all
those dogs running up to you andit's like could be a nightmare
for some, but a delightful dreamfor others.
Right, well, I was.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
I was prepared for it .
And likewise I've seen thesebig groups of dogs in India and
outside in Nairobi, in Kenya,and you know some of them are in
bad health.
The people don't have that.
They either don't get much careor the people can't afford it.
But it's just kind of like, oh,who's this?
Although they're not usingEnglish or Swahili, it's like

(23:48):
who's this two-legged mammalwho's walking in on me?
You know, you get the feelingwhen I was out in the field for
years on end with coyotes andsometimes with wolves, they're
just looking, is like who's thistwo-legged thing walking over
to us?
But yeah, I think what you'resuggesting is really cool.
I I just really enjoyed beingin these different places and

(24:10):
having people say, well, there'sthis group and you know there's
this reddish dog and he willrun up to you really fast and
stop and put his paw.
You know so he's.
The people would literally sayhe's not going to attack you.
And of course, the first timethey run up and they sit and
they're like a low growl orsnarl You're going.
Well, I'm not sure about this,but but they were right.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, yeah, it's so much fun todo that, I just love it.
I would love to segue now toyou.
Emotions and animals.
You know, because I know you'vetalked a lot about that today.
You've written about it onpsychology today, which I love,
by the way, and anybody whohasn't seen Mark's articles
there.
Mark writes about everythingfrom the sentience and animals,
emotions, and even interviewedsomebody about mushrooms, which

(24:55):
is fascinating.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
So, so yeah, it's a great resource really.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
So here's a big question.
You know, so you have some inin the world.
That's where I will say youknow, how do you know emotions?
How do you know animalsexperience emotions?
So what's your elevator pitch?
For once, somebody says, mark,I don't know you.
Yet how do we really know whata dog's feeling?
Or how do we really know adog's or an animal has emotions?
Aren't they just sort of justresponding to the stimuli in

(25:22):
their environment?

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Well, there's a couple of questions there.
At least is once you know.
Number one do they haveemotions?
Do they have feelings, you know?
Are they sentient?
And of course they are.
There's a dwindling number ofpeople who wonder about whether
dogs actually like playing, andI always say I'm glad I'm not
their dog.
That's, that's the answer for me.

(25:46):
But you know, as an ethologist,so getting into the science,
sometimes we have phenotypeslike what we look like, what a
dog looks like, the color oftheir fur, the type of fur, the
tail, the ears.
So phenotypes is basically thevisible characteristics of an
individual.
But Conrad Lorenz, who won theNobel Prize some decades ago,

(26:07):
used to think of behavior as aphenotype.
So he would talk aboutbehavioral phenotypes and you
know, the basis of that and thebasis of ethology is careful
observation.
So just look at a dog.
You know we're focusing on dogs.
It could be other animals, youknow.
Look at how they adapt todifferent circumstances.
They're flexible behavior.

(26:29):
For example, they know they cando x, y and z with another one
particular dog and a, b and cwith another dog, and Some
puzzle that they're puttingtogether of what they can do
with different dogs.
Okay, it's also the case thatthere's just not very many
phenotypes that justspontaneously appear in humans,

(26:51):
for example.
And so to me the question isn'tif Emotions have evolved, but
why have they evolved?
What are they good for?
Why are they adaptive?
And I'm, you know, mixingemotions and feelings.
I mean, you know, emotions arereally the responses we have in
our bodies.
The feelings are the subjectiveexpressions of these Things

(27:13):
that are happening in our body.
But I mean, when I starttalking to people about that, I
could see their eyes rolling andand and and I can.
I feel very strongly that Icould talk about feelings and
emotions Synonymously.
But there are a difference.
But just look at it, anindividual, and see how they
respond.
Like if you're looking at a dog, you know what situations are

(27:36):
their tails high and wagging, orlow and tucked under their butt
?
Well, where are their ears?
Are their eyes open?
Are they smiling?
Are they snarling?
Do you see little lip curls?
Well, these behaviors that youcould see are Sort of the
outward indicators of whatthey're feeling.
To me it's just not rocketscience, but what I really like

(28:00):
and I know this from my ownwriting that over the years
there's just fewer and fewerskeptics that just are.
From a biological point of view,it's impossible to imagine that
the wide variety of responsesthat an individual shows could
all be hardwired.
If a do be, if see, do D, youknow, and all that kind of stuff

(28:24):
.
The differences, the variationin the social situations in
which, say, an individual dogfinds themselves, you know,
unless they're just stuck insideall day Under a couch.
It's almost infinite.
So they're adapting to thepresence of different dogs with
different personalities andthat's based on what they feel.

(28:46):
I mean, I can't think of anyother way to say that yeah, and
I think training techniques thatare based on behaviorism, like
stimulus response, things justdon't work.
I mean, you mean, they can workin terms of getting a dog to do
what you want them to do, butthen you've got a dog who has a
very limited behavioralrepertoire and who's living in
constant, interminable fear,stress and anxiety.

(29:09):
So you know I stress that topeople that you know, yeah, you
could do certain things withdogs, but because they are
emotional beings, you can getthem to do what you want them to
do by Beating them or shockingthem or doing whatever you do to
them.
But then you have like a with akid yeah, they'll do what you
want them to do, but the qualityof their life is just horrific.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
Well stated.
Yeah, and so there's differentlenses of looking at emotions
and animals and you're talkingabout from a biological
perspective and an ethologicalperspective.
Do you talk about effectiveneuroscience or a pancsep, for
instance?
Or include that type of view inyour work as well.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
You know only to a limited extent because years ago
I was in the PhD MD program inthe neurosciences and I dropped
out of it.
So I Know a good deal of Yachtpancseps work.
He was good friend of mine andwe had disagreements about
certain things but he did reallysolid research.
So yeah, if people ask me aboutthe neuroscience of what we're

(30:15):
talking about, I can explain tothem the little that I know.
But you know, once again, interms of the basis of emotions
or feelings, you know we've gota lot of research on oxytocin,
for example.
You know the so-called lovehormone.
I mean, I think a lot of whatpeople say about it is true, but
a lot's overblown.
You can't take a highlyaggressive dog or cat or other

(30:40):
mammal, say, and Shoot them upwith oxytocin and think that
it's going to be the panacea.
You know.
But I think what's reallyinteresting for me is when I go
to dog parks and I've been dogparks all over the place where
there are dog parks you know,when you start talking about the
neurobiology or theneuroscience, we have some
really neat work being done onneuroimaging using fmri's

(31:05):
magnetic resonance imaging ondogs, and what I like about it
is the dogs have to be trainedto go into, say, the machine.
If they don't want to, thenthey're not used because, number
one, you can't have any noiseor motion.
Gregory Burns, among others.
He said emory, who have, whohas done some of this work, uses
his own dogs and he loves hisdogs.

(31:28):
So what I like about thatresearch is that when you put a
dog in a certain situation andyou're creating a situation
where they may feel a certainemotion, the same parts of the
dog brain lights up as Humanbrain.
So one of the studies this teamdid was looking at jealousy.

(31:48):
Mmm and they created a situationwhere a dog see a dog getting
another some food, say, but onedog was in the fm or our machine
and Parts of the amygdala litup because that's what MRIs look
at is what parts of the brainare working and light up.
And the same Parts of the dogbrain lit up as would light up
when humans express jealousy.

(32:10):
Hmm, that's the form ofaffective neuroscience.
What I like about those studiesis that for some skeptics
They'll say well, we don't knowwhether dogs feel x, y or z, but
if the same part of the brainis lighting up, I feel
comfortable Saying dogs feelthat.

(32:31):
You know, one of the holes inour data and and I think it's a
huge hole is Alexander Harwitzis a really great dog researcher
.
Discovered that humans aren'tvery good at meeting a dog's
guilty face.
She never said the dogs don'tfeel guilty.
I mean, I've written a lot onthat, I've got quotes from her

(32:51):
on that.
So when people say, well, drHarwood said the dogs don't feel
guilty, I always say we don'tknow whether dogs feel guilty, I
feel comfortable thinking theydo.
Their social mammals and a lotof other mammals, including, you
know, non-human primates, feelguilt.
But I would love to see somekind of situation where Some

(33:12):
sort of affective neurosciencecould be done, perhaps using the
magnetic resonance Imaging.
So I'm using that as an exampleBecause for some of the
skeptics, they want science,they don't think ethology is
science, they think it's stampcollecting, which, of course,
one of the dumbest things I'veever heard of my life.

(33:32):
But for some people whoquestioned whether dogs felt
jealousy I just know this fromhaving people write to me the
study on jealousy and looking atMRIs convinced them that dogs
do feel jealous.
I mean, when I talked to someof my friends and I go to dog
parks and I say, well, what doyou think about dogs feeling
jealous or guilt, they go.

(33:53):
You academics got to get out ofthe ivory tower and into the
field, if you will.
But I think your question is areally good one, mike, because
it's closing the door even moreon the skeptics who say, rather
than saying we don't know wherethe dogs feel something, they
say dogs don't feel something orcan't feel it.

(34:16):
I mean that's the proverbialputting the cart before the
horse.
We don't know.
Yeah, so I feel verycomfortable.
Yeah, I mean, I don't doubt dogdogs feel jealous and I don't
doubt, dogs feel guilt.
But you want to be a scientist,go do the work.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah, yeah, highly agree.
Yeah, we're gonna take a shortbreak to hear word from our
sponsors and we're gonna comeback and talk more about
emotions, and especially withits relation to aggression as
well as dominance.
So we'll be right back.
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All right, we're back with drMark back off.
We're gonna jump into emotionsnow and aggression in the

(38:03):
relation to aggression.
So I'd love to hear thoughts onwhich emotions Results in those
emotional responses ofaggressive behavior.
Obviously, fear we were talkingabout fear is one of them.
Perhaps we can jump to thingslike rage or anger.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
For again, looking at the effective neuroscience, you
know system of it, or just yourthoughts on that, in terms of
what you're seeing withaggressive responses in animals,
yeah, I think it's the same aswe would say in humans it could
be fear, feeling anxious, beinguncertain, which of course is
tied into fear, could be a dogjust having a bad dog day, just

(38:39):
like humans have bad human days.
And when I first wrote aboutthat some people just laughed
and I went well, why would youlaugh?
I mean, dogs can have bad days.
I've lived with dogs who get upin the morning and they're
gnarly.
They're not typically gnarly,but they have a short fuse.
And If I did something or saidsomething or went over to hug

(39:03):
them a, pet them the dogs wholiked being hugged or petted I
Could tell that they weren'tcomfortable.
So they could be having just abad day.
You know they could have had anightmare.
I guarantee you that otheranimals have nightmares.
You know, like other animalsdream and they dream very
vividly.
So my take on it is number oneit could be a chronic condition

(39:27):
for an individual dog, as I'veseen in the field with coyotes
and foxes, for example, wherethey're just, they're nervous
all the time something happenedto them.
I mean, I suppose it could beinnate, I just don't know enough
about that, but they havelonger or shorter fuses and it
could be just tied into context.

(39:49):
But when people say, well, no,dogs don't really feel these
things, or they don't use thesebehavior patterns to form, say,
social dominance relationshipsor Whether there are alpha dogs,
they're wrong.
They're just wrong.
The notion of alpha and theidea that there's no such thing

(40:13):
Was really a misreading of somestudies on wolves.
One of the major ones is therewas research by a guy who's mr
Wolf, if you will.
I mean, maybe there's peoplenow who know as much as Dave
Meach he was, you know.
But I wrote a paper 13 to 15years ago and Dave's had been a
longtime friend of mine and Iasked him about that and he

(40:34):
wrote back and said, no, thepeople in the dog World have
misinterpreted what he said.
He even uses the words alphaand dominant, you know, in his
paper.
So I think for me it's amisreading of what dominance is.
So it doesn't have to befighting, it doesn't have to
involve you know, any kind ofphysical Contact.

(40:57):
I could dominate you by walkingtowards you and having you
Change the route that you'retaking.
That could be a form ofdominance.
So dominance could be simplydefined as Mark does something
that changes Mike's behavior andyou avoid me.

(41:18):
You could be smelling me.
If I'm a dog, you could bereading my approach, but you do
that in humans.
I mean, I have avoided walkingnear people who are strolling up
to me in a very stiff gate orthey're looking around and their
facial expressions look reallynasty, so dogs can read that and

(41:40):
dogs have the advantage whichI'm glad we don't of maybe
smelling a assertiveness ordominance.
So I think part of themisreading is that dominance has
to involve fighting or reallyintense threatening.
It doesn't.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Yeah, I have a number of questions I can go down but
so I wanted to give a littlecontext for the listeners too,
because I think some of theaudience may not have heard of
the concepts you're talkingabout or have certain
conceptions about it.
So we're saying dominanceexists, and that's an
interesting thing is thatsometimes in some of the

(42:18):
conversations in the dogtraining community it's put out
as oh, there's no such thing asdominance at all.
But especially from the fieldof ethology it's a very known
phenomenon and so if you were togive sort of a definition that
you would put out there for,like, the dog training community
in terms of defining it, I knowyou kind of explained it in
that sense of an example, butbecause what we actually usually

(42:40):
see is priority access to aresource, so that's the one term
of it.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Well, that would be the yeah, and really I'm not
nitpicking, but that would bethe effect of there being some
kind of dominance relationshipsbetween two or more individuals
that grants them priority ofaccess.
However, I mean with the dogs Ilived with and all the dogs who
used to come down to my housein the mountains, I would have

(43:08):
to say that there were no quotedominance relationships among
them.
It was first come, first served.
They liked one another, theyplayed.
I mean I use them as an example, as I do some of the dogs I met
in India and China and EastAfrica, where they might have
subtle dominance relationshipsthat I couldn't read, but they
knew one another well enough tosay, oh yeah, mike's over there

(43:31):
eating, so I'm not gonna botherhim, I'll avoid him.
Maybe it's because you snarledat me before, things like that.
Like I said before, I simplythink in a generic and very
general way, that you coulddefine dominance as being one
individual controls the behaviorof another individual.
So there are shades of gray,there are shades of dominance.

(43:55):
If I walk to you and you walkaway from me, I've controlled
your behavior, but then I couldsay, oh, did you avoid me
because you thought if weinteracted or crossed paths that
I might threaten you and youcould say, yes, I did, or you
could say, oh no, I didn't.

(44:15):
I saw something across thestreet.
So that gets back to howpowerful ethology is in looking
at context.
At least I can say to you Mike,did you avoid me because you
thought I was gonna beat you upor steal your coffee?
You can go.
Oh no, I didn't even thinkabout that.
I was looking across the streetand I saw a squirrel.
Oh, I saw another friend.

(44:36):
I think this is really importantand that's why the dynamics at
dog parks and talking to thepeople, the dogs, humans, is so
powerful.
Because they'll say I'll getthere and maybe I don't know the
dogs as well as I should orcould.
I shouldn't say should, butthere's a lot of dogs and I'll
ask people.

(44:57):
I say, well, I see Molly andRose.
They've got this kind ofdynamic where Molly seems afraid
of Rose and the people go no,she's not afraid of Rose at all.
10 minutes ago, rose had a stickand was running around and
didn't wanna share it and Mollytried to get it and Rose growled
at her and then 30 secondslater they're rolling on the

(45:19):
floor playing so to me and I'vegot this book coming out called
Dogs Demystified one of the mostimportant things people forget
about it's easy to forget aboutin home dogs or dogs you don't
know is context.
So once again I'll go back toWild Canids Wild Wolves, coyotes
, foxes.
You see this all the time.

(45:39):
You get out there and you spendan hour watching them and you
think you know all there is.
And I always tell people, aftereight and a half years and
thousands of hours watching wildcoyotes, I was still learning
things about them, as was mypostdoc and research team.
So I'm not saying that we can'tlearn anything, but we need to

(46:01):
be really careful about jumpingto rapid conclusions.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yeah, yeah, I wanna unpack this a little further too
.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
Sure sure.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
So we're using those examples.
For instance, so Mark gets inmy space because he wants my
coffee or something like that,so he has that particular
context and that particularmoment.
We say, mark, as dominantbehavior resulted in Mike saying
, okay, you can have my coffee,and so that's that context, that
moment.
And then I might learn fromthat too.
I might be like, oh, that lasttime Mark gave me that look and

(46:30):
I gave up my coffee.
So the next time I'm gonnaavoid Mark when I've got a
coffee or he's got a coffee.
And so there's that learningexperience too.
But it's also fluid, right.
So there's another day where Ihave my pizza and I give you a
look and you are like, ooh,mike's really giving me that
dominant look.
So it's very fluid.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
He's resuiscarding his pizza.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
So with that, that would be, I guess, a fairly
accurate description of momentsof dominance and the
relationship happening there, orcontext.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
That's a great example In the absence of any
threat or any physicalinteraction.
So I've talked to people whoand I can understand there they
would rather reserve the worddominance although I don't think
it's factual for situationswhere I'd actually approach you
and threaten you or push you, ora dog would jump on another dog

(47:21):
.
But that's what I think iswrong, because so many people
who say dogs don't expressdominance it's just wrong.
There's no mammal of whom I'maware that doesn't set up some
kinds of relationships.
You've got highly socialelephants, for example.
But even within a herd theylearn who they can approach or

(47:45):
not, or when they can approachanother animal and not piss them
off.
I've seen this so many times atdog parks.
I mean it's just going thereand seeing the same dogs over
and over and over again and thengoing with somebody who doesn't
know these dogs which I've donewith students and they'll say,
oh, rosie is dominating Mollyand what's going on.

(48:06):
And I'll say, well, you know,like Rosie's human told me, no,
there's no dominance there, it'sjust they don't want to share
this toy, or Rosie tried to getthe toy and Molly didn't want
her to have the toy.
I mean there's just, there's somany things going on and once
again I get back to that.
That's what's so exciting thatyou know it's no one size fits

(48:27):
all explanation and I'm not adog trainer, but I love when dog
trainers and some of whom Iknow around Boulder use all that
information to come up with aneffective curriculum, if you
will, to helping a dog along.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
Excellent, now a little further in packing.
So we were talking aboutcontexts, right, and so we
sometimes also see applicationsof relationships or also that
alpha term, right?
So in a, let's say, we use anexample of a home with four or
five dogs and they havedifferent moments of all.
Right, today I'm going to haveaccess to this bone, tomorrow

(49:05):
you're going to have access tothat food bowl, and so on and so
forth.
So we see these differentrelationships in certain
contexts, but sometimes theyapply sort of overall umbrella
oh, that dog is the mostdominant one all the time or
that dog is the alpha, which is,you know, a problem for a lot
of trainers because the argumentis very loose, relationships or
fluidity and gray areas and sowhat are your thoughts?

(49:27):
On that.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (49:29):
It makes a lot of sense because I think the word
alpha is it's misused or maybethe best way to say it it
doesn't imply what other peoplethink or some people think.
If I'm alpha over you, itdoesn't mean that I'm beating
you up every time and you'reavoiding me all the time.
It's that somehow we have arelationship where you, I know

(49:50):
that I can get away doingcertain things to you, but it
would reach a point where youmight say no way and you could
come after me.
But it's also you'rerecognizing that relationship
and saying, okay, that's fine.
I mean, if you're lookingflocks of birds and groups or
packs or you know whatever youwant aggregations or herds of

(50:13):
mammals, you'll see that.
So alpha might mean that I havemore freedom of movement, when
in a group, for no reason otherthan I, have more degrees of
freedom and I can move aroundmore than, say, you can.
So the main point I think that'scoming out of this and I've
thought about this for so longis there's no doubt that dogs

(50:37):
form dominance relationships.
I mean, if you look at studiesof free-ranging and feral dogs,
we know that there's no doubtthat there are higher ranking
Alpha dogs.
But you need to be reallycareful of how you use the term.
That's all.
So when people say there are noalpha dogs or dogs don't form
packs, yet dogs form packs.

(50:58):
I mean, I had a student whostudied feral dogs and they do
form packs and a lot of thepacks resemble wolf packs or
coyote packs.
So I actually think sometimesand somebody asked me this a few
weeks ago whether it just comesdown to being very careful on
using umbrella terms that implydifferent things, and I think it

(51:20):
is yeah.
Yeah, so do I use the terms?
I use them, but I alwayseditorialize them.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Because I think one of the issues in the dog
training industry anyways isthat applying the Principles of
the misconception of the term todog training.
So instance somebody says Ineed to be the alpha in my
relationship with the dog, butthen they incorporate punishment
techniques or abusivetechniques in the name of that
right precisely.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
You could be the alpha using force-free, positive
training, but the term alphadoesn't seem to really apply
there.
If you will, although you are,you're saying I want you to do
something, but I'm gonna teachyou to do it in a way that
doesn't mean that I'm dominatingyou, but in the sense you're
controlling their behavior.
That's why there's so manyshades of gray and that's why

(52:12):
when people say they don't exist, I mean to me that's in the
same ballpark of sorts likesaying well, dogs don't feel
guilt, you know yeah, and stuff.
I Think it's really importantbecause I know people have
called me who have gone down tothe local shelters around you
know Boulder, where I live, orother places and they see

(52:33):
descriptors of dogs and They'llalways ask the people say, at
the shelter or the rescue center, who know the dogs, what do you
mean by this term?
And Thank goodness, the peopleat the shelters or the rescue
centers are really well educatedand they'll say well, we're
using that term because in thesesituations, this particular dog

(52:57):
Feels uneasy and can beassertive or pushy and and we
know dogs can be pushy yeah,yeah, they get paid to sometimes
push us to see what they canget away with.
But I find that to be really alot of fun.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Yes, see, this is why I love this conversation,
because we're in packing termsthat are sort of four letter
words in the dog trainingindustry.
But they're four letter wordsbecause some people have taken
them and used them to Justifyvery forceful or punishment
based techniques to dogs.
Right, and so that's thedisclaimer neither Mark or I are
advocating for.

(53:33):
Punishment in the name ofdominance, or you know, talking
about alpha right.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
Well, I'll tell you what's really interesting for me
.
I was just looking something upthat I had written about this,
but I can't find it.
It's okay, I don't think.
Maybe it was between, say, 10and 15 years ago that I actually
came across Statements thatsaid dogs don't form dominance
relationships and there's nosuch thing as an alpha

(54:00):
individual.
I mean, that's pretty Late intomy long career, if you will,
but it blew my mind and Thenwhen I started to, or tried, if
you will, to have discussionswith these people, they wanted
nothing to do with me.
They told me I didn't know whatI was talking about.
There's a lot of things I don'tknow, but I knew what I was

(54:23):
talking about from just being along-term carnivore Ethologist.
That's when I first learned andI actually called some dog
trainers you know, I calledteachers, whatever, but dog
trainers and Honestly, they toohad the same response, saying
whoever it is that saying thishas no concept of what's going
on.
It also turned out that some ofthe people who were saying it

(54:46):
were people who used forcefultechniques so they could be the
dominant or the alpha or theleader of the pack, which to me
makes just Zero sense.
I'm sorry, it just Makes nosense at all.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Yes, yes, yeah.
And it's a shame because,unfortunately, when certain
terms or labels are used in ourindustry, we avoid those
conversations, those deep,meaningful conversations that
need to happen to understandthose terms you know the
terminology involves.
So it's a shame that thathappened, because there's such a
learning opportunity.
You know, in 15 years ago,especially when this we were

(55:20):
really talking about it.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
I Agree and disagree to some extent.
The people I've tried to talkabout don't want to hear from me
and I don't want to hear fromthem, so understand so it knows
so, in all honesty, it's likeFirst amendment you have a
freedom to do what you want andsay, and I have a freedom to do
that.
So, but it's the same kind ofsituation with talking about

(55:43):
animal emotions or personalities.
You know, you reach a pointwhere you have a conversation
and an hour later or a weeklater, you're having the same
conversation and I'm not goingto change and that are going to
change.
So good, go do what you want todo.
But the reason I'm very carefulabout this with dogs in
particular, because you couldtalk about it, about Wild wolves

(56:05):
or coyotes or chimpanzees orelephants, but the people who
disagree with you have zeroimpact on the lives of these
animals, the wild animals.
The people who disagree with youhave on the ground Interactions
, perhaps as trainers, with dogs, and so they're bringing their
ideas into the curriculum, ifyou will.

(56:26):
Yeah, to me that's just badnews.
I mean, I hate to say it thatway because I mean it's no
surprise that I'm a fan ofpositive force, free training
and you know all the upsides andto that kind of technique.
But that's what I was thinkingabout just a couple of weeks ago
.
It's funny, I was finishingthis dogs demystified and
reading some sections ontraining and you know I just was

(56:50):
reading your stuff and otherpeople's and Realizing there's
still people out there who aregonna read that and are gonna be
Really upset when you just say,look, there's no reason to hit
a dog, shock a dog, yellow, thatyou know what I mean.
People say, well, have you everyelled at a dog you were living
with?
No, yes, I have.
But I mean I have to say, did Inotice a change in their

(57:13):
behavior afterwards?
No, they knew I love them.
But you know you've done itwith people where you just go.
Stop that.
But I do think in the world ofdogs these kind of overarching
statements there's nothing suchas or believing.
There's no such thing asdominance or aggression or

(57:33):
assertion or happiness or joy.
Just it spills over into theway people interact with them
and when they're trainers,results in Pretty bad treatment
of the dog.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
It certainly does.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
I mean I'm not.
I don't mean sorry in anapologetic way.
I, I just had it.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
I mean I, I just can't do that, yeah, yeah, and
it stifles Curiosity as wellwhen we say this thing doesn't
exist and then our mind shutsoff oh, I guess it doesn't exist
because somebody saying itdoesn't exist.
So let me move on to otherthings, without being curious
about these things that wesometimes don't even understand
yet.
So it's a shame when thathappens, right?

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Well, it's a shame when it happens.
And it's a bigger shame Becausethe downside as you know much
better than I do is dogs getabused and people don't
interpret it as abuse, but it isabuse, sorry, I mean, you've
got a fully sentient feelingbeing there who wants to trust
you and wants to have a lifewhere there's agency, mutual

(58:35):
trust, mutual respect, and theydon't.
But then people say, as youknow much better than I, well,
what I did works, they heal,they listen to me and I'm going,
yeah, and they're probably in achronic state of stress Because
they're afraid.
They're afraid that if theydon't do what you want them to

(58:55):
do, you're just gonna hit themagain or shock them would do
whatever you know, whatever youraversive technique Consists of
and I don't want to know about.
I mean I, I, I have to say thatI don't want to know about it.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
And what a great waiter kind of wrap up what we
were talking about.
All it just all ties togetherand really understanding that
dogs are sentient beings withlots of emotions.
So you're talking about a lotof that in your upcoming book.
Do you want to talk more aboutthat?

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Oh, I would love to.
The book is called dogsdemystified an A to Z guide to
all things canine.
So it's different topics.
There must be 800 of them.
I think maybe some got droppedin the copy editing but my brain
was so filled that I wouldn'thave known or maybe cared.

(59:44):
But it's laid outalphabetically by topic.
There may be a few topics thatsomeone would think about that
aren't there explicitly, butit's all covered.
So it's descriptions, lots ofstories, it's all science-based
and the references will be on myhome page when the book is
published, so people can just goto the home page, click on a

(01:00:09):
reference and there it'll be,which I think it's really
convenient because you don'thave to then either copy and
paste a URL or type it out,which we used to have to do, and
of course they could be 45characters and you miss one.
But the book is really based onWanting people to respect dogs
for who they are contrastinghome, free-ranging and feral

(01:00:32):
dogs becoming fluent in dog ordog literate.
I'm really excited about it.
It really ate me up, if youwill.
I mean I I've really beenworking for years on it and
about a year and a half agoSomebody said to me you should
write a book like this, and II've been trying to avoid it.
Having edited threeencyclopedias when, where I had

(01:00:56):
people contribute, you know Ithink it'll be a very useful
guide in a very Conversationalway.
It's really written in aconversational way but based on
science and common sense, anethology and solid biology.
So people can go oh, I want toknow what the word aggression
means, or abnormal, or caching,or lip curl, or I blink because

(01:01:21):
of me.
So I'll just.
The book is almost an ethogramof 300 pages, but what I love
about it too, I've got numerousstories that have come to me
over the years, from notscientists necessarily, but
people who Say what's going onhere?
Or tool uses, an example wherepeople used to say, well, no,

(01:01:46):
years ago Humans were calledhomophobes, which mean man the
tool user.
But then, of course, janeGoodall discovered tool use and
now we see it and it was justcoincidental.
I was writing the section ontool use, I had a few stories
and within that week so it wasalmost cosmic that people wrote
me.
I got four or five stories ofdifferent dogs using different

(01:02:08):
objects as tools.
So yeah, there we go.
And you know, years ago I saidit would blow my mind if dogs
didn't use tools.
I mean, we just haven't seen it.
Do dogs recognize themselves?
How do they use Female?
We call it in our bookunleashing your dog.
So I'm excited about it and I'mhoping people will read it and

(01:02:30):
send me stories.
And somebody said, oh, will itbe a second edition?
And I went no, but Unlikely.
But what I like about it is onmy home page.
I can put these out and peoplecan have access and then write
to me with more stories.
I'm excited because it's kindof like an open forum and we

(01:02:51):
need that.
We really do.
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Yeah, I'm excited for that.
I'm very much looking forwardto it as well.
It should be out at the time,at the release of this podcast
episode.
So if you're listening and now,you should be able to get the
book in Expecting somewhere inJune.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
I think Mark said so yeah, I'd say by mid-June
Perfect, and it's gonna be arelevant.
I mean, I'm really thrilledthat it's gonna be a relatively
inexpensive paperback, which Ireally like, because you know
academic books with 150 pages ofReferences, which this could be
, could cost 45 dollars.
It's a field guide, I mean,that's another word that you

(01:03:27):
know you could apply to it.
What I love about it too, is Isent out.
At one point I regretted it justbecause I was getting comments
back left and right, but I sentout a lot of the entries both to
science colleagues and topeople who sent me stories, and
we actually have a section thereof what would you like to ask

(01:03:49):
your dog.
So I've got a lovely story fromPaul McCartney of the Beatles
about a dog he rescued.
The singer Joan Baez did theoriginal drawings who's, and
Emmy Lou Harris, who's a verywell-known singer.
She runs a rescue center forsenior dogs.
People don't know that thesequote famous people are really

(01:04:10):
into animals, but I also have myneighbors and my cycling
buddies Saying this is what Iwould like to know from my dog.
So once again, I think the openformat ultimately will really
Result in a lot of informationand I can send it to you, mike,
and you can write a book on it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
I will 100% take you up on that offer, or we could do
it together but yeah, so anyway.
Mark, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
I really appreciate your timein your expertise.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
This was wonderful, so I hope to see you again in
the future likewise, thank youfor letting me free will,
because we know a lot about dogsnow.
But I always say the more Iknow, the more I say I don't
know.
But once again I come back toit because it's why I wrote dogs
demystified.
It's the practical, on theground application of what we

(01:05:07):
know about dogs to getting themto adapt to a human world.
You know, even free-ranging andferal dogs, maybe to a lesser
extent, have to adapt to a humanworld.
But we are a human dominatedworld and we're asking dogs,
maybe especially home dogs,we're asking them to do things

(01:05:27):
that are not dog.
I mean, it's very simple.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
What a way to wrap up your shows.
Thanks again, mark.
I appreciate it.
My pleasure.
Thank you, mike.
What a way to wrap up thisseason.
I'm just so fortunate to havethis opportunity to chat with so
so many incredibly talented,knowledgeable and passionate
people in our community, andMark certainly did not
disappoint.
I'm looking forward to divinginto his latest book and hearing

(01:05:52):
more from him in the future,and I want to especially thank
you for listening in andsupporting the show.
I couldn't do this without thewonderful support of so many
listeners from around the world.
So thank you and thank you forall you're doing to help the
dogs in your life.
I look forward to launchingseason 5 with more incredible

(01:06:12):
guests, and I hope to see orhear from you at one of the next
aggressive dog comm events.
And, as always, stay well, myfriends.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
He's resource, guarding his pizza.