From Bites to Breakthroughs: Human-Directed Aggression with Jacqueline Drake

When your beloved dog growls, lunges, or even bites someone, it creates a unique kind of heartbreak. You're caught between protecting the people you care about and understanding the dog you love. In this candid, illuminating conversation, Certified Dog Behavior Consultant Jacqueline Drake shares her expertise on navigating the emotional complexity of dog-to-human aggression cases.

Drawing from over thirteen years of experience working with challenging behaviors, Jacqueline offers a refreshingly nuanced perspective that honors both ends of the leash. Rather than focusing solely on quick fixes or broad labels, she delves into the detective work necessary to understand the specific contexts that trigger aggression and the unique factors influencing each case. Her compassionate approach acknowledges that behind every growl lies a story—sometimes of pain, fear, confusion, or past trauma—that needs to be understood before meaningful change can happen.

About Jacqueline:

https://trainingbyjacqueline.com/meetyourtrainer/

Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com

Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference

Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes

Check out all of our webinars, courses, and educational content here:
Webinars, courses, and more!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
In today's episode, I'm joined by Jacqueline Drake,
a rising voice in the field ofcanine behavior, who brings a
thoughtful, research-informedand deeply compassionate lens to
some of the most emotionallycharged cases in dog training
those involving aggressiontowards humans.
Jacqueline and I dig into thecomplexity behind these cases,

(00:23):
exploring not just thebehavioral mechanics but also
the emotional weight they carryfor both dogs and the people who
love them.
Whether it's building trustwith a dog who has bitten before
or helping a guardian navigatefear and guilt, jacqueline
offers clear insights andgrounded strategies for working
through these challenges withempathy and care.

(00:45):
She's a certified dog behaviorconsultant and a fear-free
animal trainer and has vastexperience working with dog to
human aggression in veterinaryand rescue settings and is
earning her master's in appliedanimal behavior and welfare.
And before we jump into today'sepisode, a quick heads up If
you're looking to learn moreabout helping dogs with

(01:05):
aggression issues, head on overto AggressiveDogcom, because
we've got something for everyone.
For pet pros, there's theAggression in Dogs Master Course
, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
on aggression, packed withexpert insights and CEUs.
For dog guardians, check outReal Life Solutions, which is a
practical course for everydaychallenges like leash reactivity

(01:26):
and dog-to-dog aggression.
Jacqueline just happens to beone of the experts in the course
and she covers everything youneed to know about dog-to-human
aggression, and if you want fullaccess to expert webinars, live
mentor sessions and exclusivediscounts, the Ultimate Access
Membership is just $29.95 amonth.
You'll also find info on the2025 Aggression and Dogs

(01:48):
Conference happening inCharlotte this September.
That can all be found ataggressivedogcom.
Check it out after the show.
Hey, everyone, welcome back toanother episode of the Bitey End
of the Dog.
This week we're going to bejumping into the topic of dog to
human aggression, and one ofthe things you guys might notice

(02:11):
I've done on the show is I liketo bring in specialists, those
that actually really focus on aparticular topic, and I can't
think of anybody else betterthan Jacqueline Drake, who's
joining me this week.
So welcome to the show,jacqueline.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Hey, thanks for having me.
I'm super excited.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, I love this topic because it's definitely a
case we see quite often, ofcourse, in our work with
aggression cases, and it's atough one because oftentimes the
human relationships areimpacted.
So we're going to talk moreabout that.
But you know, I kind of want toknow, and I'm sure the
listeners want to know, what gotyou into working with dogs.
You know in general, but thenalso kind of focusing on this

(02:48):
dog to human aggression caseaspect.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, so I feel like I have a very standard intro
into the dog world as far asgetting a dog that has behavior
issues.
So back in 2013, I actuallywent to volunteer at a shelter
in Louisiana it's VillalobosRescue Center and when I was
volunteering there I fell inlove with a dog who had been in

(03:13):
that shelter for about nineyears and they had kind of
defaulted to hey, you know,she's got such significant
trauma that we'll just hang onto her, we'll let her kind of
age in the shelter and you knowthere's a lot of opinions on
that and this was quite a longtime ago.
But in my young 20s I said,nope, I'd like to take that dog
home.
Her name was Puma and she hadpreviously.

(03:37):
When she was about six monthsold, she was owned by someone
who had some issues and at sixmonths old there was a raid on
his home and so there was apolice standoff, lots of noises,
and so that was what her bigissue was is significant noise
sensitivity.
To the point that I rememberwhen I first went to walk her

(03:58):
and they handed the leash to meand they said, hey, like she
probably won't go potty, butjust in case she also might pass
out if she hears a noise and Iremember being like what do you
mean, you know?
So she never ended up doingthat with me and there were a
few times where she actuallywent potty when she was out with

(04:19):
me and we're in, you know, newOrleans, so it was really noisy
and there was a lot going on andI think, just seeing her feel
comfortable and kind of fallingin love with her, I decided I
wanted to bring her back toMichigan and so I was not a
trainer at that point, knewnothing about behavior, but I
just thought I wanted to bringher home.

(04:40):
And so much, like everybody else, my story is that instead of
finding a trainer, I opened abook and ended up becoming one
over time.
So she started my career reallyshe's my business logo, her face
, and she's the reason that I ameven in this world because of
the curiosity of how to help her.
And I unfortunately lost herpretty quick to cancer and so

(05:04):
quickly after that I ended upwith my second dog, who I
currently have named Porter, whowas supposed to be behaviorally
euthanized by the rescue he wasin and his issue was actually
dog aggression.
But over the years he hadsometimes the standard kind of
stranger danger, as we call it.
He had sometimes the standardkind of stranger danger, as we

(05:27):
call it, and so just knowing whohe was with me at home and in
everyday life and then knowinghow he presented to the public,
it kind of built my passion fordogs that have significant
behavior struggles.
For a long time I took reallyany case that I thought was
appropriate or I was capable todo.
But in the last few years I'vegotten into that specialty of

(05:51):
dogs with big behavior strugglesand seeing cases of
dog-to-human aggression,dog-to-dog aggression and fear,
anxiety, all of those things.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
And so is there a particular aspect of aggression
cases in general that that hadyou leaning towards dog to human
aggression cases as well,because I know you work all the
types of cases but specificallyyou know one of your specialties
is the dog to human side.
So is there something that thatdrew you to that more so than
other types?

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah.
So I think there it's kind oftwofold.
And what I was saying just now,as far as a lot of people, I
can relate and sympathize withthem when it comes to them
saying I want other people tosee the dog that I know, so dogs
that have issues with otherpeople outside of the owner.
And then also the flip side isif it is directed towards the

(06:42):
owner, you know, knowing what itfeels like to question and feel
uncertain about therelationship with the dog and
how to repair that and to knowthat there is hope for that
repair.
I think that's what reallydrives me to take on those cases
, because I can put myself inpeople's shoes and really
sympathize and help them to notonly see the dog side of it but

(07:05):
also make sure that they feelheard and they feel seen with
what they're going through.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah, your story is so similar to a lot of what gets
us in there as trainers but, Ithink your story also resonates
with me in the sense of whatgets us into working aggression
cases, because you not onlymentioned the dog's point of
view but the human's point ofview there so you're looking at
both sides and empathizing withboth sides, which I think makes

(07:30):
for a really successful behaviorconsultant when it comes to
behavior problems and aggressioncases.
And the interesting thing in thePuma is that you mentioned the
trust, for there was there, likethe safety, and it also the
dog's like you need to be a dogtrainer.
This person needs to be doingthat with dogs.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
Little do you know.
You're going to bring me homeand I'm going to change your
life.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's amazing how theyteach us what to do.
It's what happened to me, mywork with dogs.
So we were focusing on dog tohuman aggression and I'd love to
know how Jacqueline classifiesdog to human aggression.
And I'd love to know howJacqueline classifies, you know,
dog to human aggression cases,because we've had many different
guests on the show looking atit from different angles.
So things like when we talkabout categorization of

(08:14):
aggression cases, we think ofmaybe different lenses we might
apply, like a just labelingthese things into the emotions
that might cause them likefear-based aggression, or we
might describe them ascontext-like locations, like
territorial aggression, or wemight even look at the medical
model and say like pain-relatedaggression.
So when you're thinking about,either in your conversations

(08:37):
with professionals or even withclients, how do you typically
help them understand what'sgoing on with the type of case
or the type of dog to humanrelated aggression?

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, I think that comes up a lot for pet guardians
is they want to know what it is, they want that label, they
want to be able to.
I think it to them they feellike they understand it better
and they can communicate itbetter if they say, oh, my dog
is a resource guard or hasstranger danger.
And what's difficult for me isover the years, when I first

(09:12):
started, I was very quick tolabel and make those assumptions
of, hey, that's got to be this.
And I will tell you that beingin grad school has really
flipped everything I've everthought on its head.
So a lot of things that we usein everyday language in the
behavior field is very differentin the academic field, and I

(09:36):
think really what that did forme is actually helped me to not
be so rigid in seeking a labelor giving clients a label, and
so I've mostly gotten intopointing out to clients the
context and what is causing thedog to feel a certain way.

(09:59):
So instead of saying, oh, thedog has stranger danger, I
really like to dive in and helpthem to figure out who is it
that your dog is reacting to,because there are some strangers
that they actually might notreact to, and I think sometimes
these broad labels it can almostsimilar to dominance, like it

(10:20):
can put a wall up, like it canput a wall up.
So I would actually say, likein the last few years I've I
don't use as many labels and I'mmore so focused on like exactly
what that specific dog isdealing with in certain contexts
, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
Absolutely and I've been talking about that actually
a lot lately is context.
Contexts are the best way tohelp clients understand, because
you know, when you talk aboutdog bite safety too and avoiding
dog bites, we're often lookingat body language right and what
the human's doing.
Those, of course, matter andare super important.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
So let's not say we're going to push those off to
the absolute part of theunderstanding.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
But context, when you think about it, is going to be
something that most people canrecognize without having to see
the body language all the time.
So what are some commoncontexts?
So if you were to say, okay, mymost common context, rather
than my most common types ofaggression cases, because we
could say I see territorialaggression a lot or I see
stranger danger, and we kind ofknow what we're talking about

(11:18):
when we say those things, but itdoesn't really help the dog and
it doesn't really spell outexactly what's happening.
So when we talk about context,what are probably some of the
most common ones you see in yourdog?
To human aggression cases?

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, I would say, visitors coming to the home,
even having, you know, my owndog, who is a little bit
talkative when the neighbors areout and about in the backyard,
but yet he's super friendly.
So you know that context ofbeing in the backyard, but yet
he's super friendly.
So that context of being in hisbackyard, maybe not being able
to see the other person verywell, being a little uncertain

(11:51):
of what's going on, kind ofalerting to it, context of being
in a vet clinic or being in agroomer, things like that.
So I think there's a lot ofdifferent and I love that you
said we're not going to do awaywith a lot of the foundational

(12:21):
things that we know and we teach.
One thing that came to at theend of the conversation she's
like Jacqueline.
This is why can't it be blackand white, you know?
Why is it not just verystraightforward and I think
that's something to alwaysremember is there is some
grayscale to it because contextscan change and so we're really
trying to look at, you know, thecontext that happened most

(12:42):
frequently for that dog, wherethey're producing aggressive
responses.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, and we kind of take all the fun out of it if
it's just black and white right.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
I mean it makes our job easy, but what's the fun in
that?

Speaker 1 (12:55):
But since dogs are not robots, right, that's the
quote.
Unquote.
Nice thing about these cases isthat you know they are very
unique in this, in the sense ofeach case is going to be so
different depending on thecontext and depending on all the
variables we're going to jumpinto as well.
So we've talked about contexts,we've talked a little bit about

(13:15):
some of the basics of why dogsmight display dog to human
aggression, but let's jump intomaybe some of the other you
mentioned causes.
So more of the causes, like theemotional aspect, the emotions
that dogs might experience.
So can you get in?
We could talk about medical, wecould talk about genetics, but
so what are common things youwant your clients to understand

(13:36):
for causes?

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, I think pain and discomfort jumps to the top
of the list.
I think we're seeing a reallygood shift in the world of
behavior.
Looking at the whole health ofthe dog before we're attempting
to look at.
You know their emotion if it'struly just their opinion versus

(13:58):
they're actually not feelinggood and that you know pain and
discomfort can.
You can get into, obviously,medical conditions as far as
arthritis or you know nerveissues all the way to a dog that
is diabetic.
And like I just had a clientwho it wasn't even the dog I'm
working with, but her other dogthey he apparently got into a

(14:20):
whole bunch of treats the nightbefore and he's diabetic, right,
and so he's fully not himselfthe next day and lucky for that
client, she found the bag oftreats.
She has kind of a known reasonas to why he's acting
differently.
But for a lot of people I don'tthink that we think about those
things and there can be a lot ofreasons.
Another recent scenario was agreyhound who was becoming

(14:47):
aggressive when she was restingon the couch and the owners
would just go to sit with herand she had been in the home for
a long time and it wasn'tnecessarily sudden.
It had been building for awhile.
But something like that mostpeople run towards, the cause is
going to be that she's beingdominant or she's being picky
and she doesn't want to shareher space.
And so, assessing somethinglike that, again coming back to

(15:09):
pain, I immediately said, hey,let's get her into the vet,
let's just double check thatshe's feeling good.
And this is a rescued raceracing greyhound, a champion
racer.
And so they found significantarthritis and nerve damage in
her back end and almostimmediately, with adding pain

(15:29):
meds to her regimen, she was notexhibiting aggression at all.
So obviously pain anddiscomfort is a big one.
I think you know sometimes notmost of the time we see kind of
those breed characteristics, solike our guardian dogs, that you
know they are bred to have aspecific job to some extent and

(15:51):
so if that job is not availableto them so thinking quickly of
you know the border colliethat's in a suburban home
they're going to find otheroutlets for that.
So it can be kind of displacedenergy and what they're bred to
do.
And then just the other big onewould be probably learning
history, experience in the world, even poor socialization, not

(16:14):
really having a lot of exposure.
I think those are some of theroot causes that can lead to
these aggressive tendencies.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yeah, and you're mentioning very similar to what
I've seen, you know, in terms ofthe major causes we need to
educate clients on, especiallyif there's a lot of blame on the
dog about you know this dog isbeing stubborn, or the other
typical labels, so helping themunderstand well, your dog might
be in pain and not actuallytrying to take over the world,
kind of you know explanations,but as you're mentioning those

(16:43):
things, I was going through someof the different emotional
aspects as well.
So if we think of pain, we mightalso think of a fear-based
response, because even if thepain is resolved, the dog could
still be afraid of handsreaching towards the ears or
something if it had a prior earinfection.
Or if we look at guarding theterritory with a livestock
guardian dog, we might not belooking at a negative, balanced

(17:05):
emotion at all.
The dog can be like this is mylife, I love doing what I'm
doing and sitting outside in thesnow and it's zero degrees and
protecting the flock, right, andwe as humans don't often see
that.
But that dog could be actuallyhaving a good time doing that
because we've selected for thatand breeding.
And then even like dogs thatguard food, for instance, like a
dog that's guarding the foodbowl, we might see like more

(17:25):
anger or rage, just the emotions.
So we typically hear the phrase.
You know fear is the root ofmost aggression.
Would you agree that fear iskind of, in your experience, one
of the most common emotions?

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, I would say definitely one of the most
common, and I think there'slayers to the fear, just like
you're talking about.
As far as fear of what hashappened in the past producing a
bad experience, or fear of justsomething being taken, like in
the case of resource guarding, Ithink fear can have a lot of
different layers to it.

(17:58):
And one thing that came to mindjust now when you were talking
about those different emotionsor learning history too, I'm
going through this with mysenior dog right now, who
previously was in a lot of pain,and I didn't realize until duh,
talking to one of my vetbehavior colleagues who was like
Jacqueline, you know this,let's try a pain regimen that's

(18:22):
a little bit more intense andjust rule out if that's the case
.
And prior to him starting painmeds, there were a couple of
instances.
I have cats as well, and so whenhe's all curled up on the couch
and a cat goes to step on him,not realizing he's under the
blanket, extra painful right,and so we've got that shark

(18:42):
moment where he really launchesand is upset, and now even post
pain meds.
He's been on pain meds for along time, you know.
I know he feels good, but westill have that kind of
association and that fear ofpreviously that caused me a lot
of discomfort.
So if a cat even puts onelittle paw on him, not realizing
he launches into wait, am Istill worried about that?

(19:05):
So I definitely think thatthere's a lot of things that can
go on that we have to reallylook closely at.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Let's step outside the normal cases and go into
some of the more not as commontypes of causes.
You've seen, can you think ofanything off the top of your
mind?
That is, some of the listenersmight be like, ooh, that's me,
or that sounds like my kind ofcase.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, well, okay.
So when that comes to mind Ilaugh because it's funny when
I'm looking at these dogs, butthinking of dogs like our newest
, you know, bernadoodles, goldenDoodles, really any dog that
has a whole lot of hair.
I have seen a lot of cases Iguess not a lot, but a few cases

(19:47):
where the dog was behavingaggressively towards people and
it was truly because they justcouldn't see like their hair was
overgrown right, and so I loveevery case.
Every case to me is like apuzzle of trying to figure out,
like, what is causing this dogto feel so uncomfortable.
But yeah, appearance orgrooming sometimes can cause

(20:12):
dogs to feel uncomfortablebecause they just can't see
what's going on.
Same with dogs that are blind,right, you know, a lot of people
don't think about how thatworld looks to them.
So I think those cases arealways fun to kind of point out
and be like, hey, let's giveFido an extra haircut this week
and see if that changes some ofthese behaviors.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, I love that.
You really piqued my interestwhen you said every case is
different, because that's reallywhat I've seen in good behavior
consultants is that they'relike detectives.
Like we're kind of learningabout a crime scene and probably
the wrong choice again of alabel.
But that's really what we'redoing is we don't need to see
the actual crime committed.
We're going to ask questions.

(20:49):
We're going to look at thecontext or the crime scene,
right?

Speaker 2 (20:53):
And where it happened .

Speaker 1 (20:54):
We're going to ask questions about it.
What happened?
What did the witnesses see?
What did the victims experienceLike many of the same kind of
questions so we can determinewhat the cause and what the
reason for the behavior is,Because it's not always obvious
and that hair covering thing issomething I've had to work with
over the years, but I don't knowif you feel the same,
Jacqueline.
But once you start seeing thesame kind of case, it's really

(21:17):
helpful Because future casesyou're like oh okay, have we
checked the dog's hair and theeyes yeah.
Like that question.
When it first happens it maynot be so obvious, but then, as
you gain more experience, itstarts to be like all right,
this is the kind of case, likethe kind of case I've seen with
separation anxiety, that I wouldhave never experienced until I
started getting these cases isthe dog biting people as they

(21:37):
try to leave the home?

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Right, they just dog's like.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
That's a significantly aversive event for
me.
So, I want to avoid that, andthe way to avoid that is to use
sometimes my teeth to keep mypeople in the home.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Right.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
It's super rare.
It's not a common type of case,but yeah interesting when we
see it.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, I did actually have a case like that early in
my career.
I personally my current boy.
He had pretty significantseparation anxiety and I got him
and it was a very speaking ofaversive.
It was very aversive for me asa new dog mom and a budding
trainer and I felt overwhelmedand so at this point I don't
take separation anxiety cases.

(22:13):
Funny enough, give me a dogthat's trying to bite people
just on a daily basis, but a dogthat panics when I leave.
I'm going to refer you to acolleague.
But I had a case like thatearly in my career where the dog
was not only going after theowner but then, when the owner
would actually make it outside,the dog was biting the door
handle and had punctured a metaldoor handle a bunch of times.

(22:38):
So yeah, it can be veryinteresting to see the different
you know varieties of thosecases.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, You're speaking my language, you know when you
say like I'd rather doaggression all day long instead
of the separation anxiety.
So let's talk a little bitabout for the pet guardians
listening in as well as the dogpros, maybe starting out in
aggression cases.
Let's talk to the safety andmanagement we typically employ,
and then we can kind of get intomore of the advanced stuff
later on.
But the basics, like what areyou typically recommending right

(23:08):
away Once you, if there's abite history, especially in the
home environment or with a doggoing after humans.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, I will say early in my career I was a
little bit too brave.
You know I've never sustained abite, but you know I have been
lunged at.
So I think safety is really,really important and it wasn't
even.
You know, leading with ego isjust more of like it'll be fine,
right, the owner will have himon leash, they'll take care of

(23:35):
it.
And I had quite a few instanceswhere, you know, dog is on
leash across the room and thenthe owner just drops the leash
before I even give the go ahead.
So I think we do have to takeinto account that it's really
stressful on the dog and theowner when you're coming in as a
consultant and so to give themvery clear safety parameters

(23:55):
when you're coming in.
One of the things that I tendto do is I will shoot a message
to the client the day of and sayyou know, hey, for my arrival
Fluffy can be in a separate room, a crate outside, if the
weather is nice, whereverthey're most comfortable.
You know, making sure that thedog is not meeting me in a

(24:18):
really aggravated state to start, and I think that that really
has kept me safe a lot of times.
I haven't had really a pooroutcome with that and then
getting them out.
I still personally do in-personconsults.
I've gone back and forth withstarting out virtually.
I think virtually is a greatoption to really get the gist of

(24:39):
it.
But you know, I've had a lot ofluck with doing in-person and
so once I go through the wholeconsult questionnaire and I get
these detective pieces of OK.
I've had a lot of luck withdoing in person and so once I go
through the whole consultquestionnaire and I get these
detective pieces of okay, I havea feeling this is what that dog
might do and kind of how to goabout it, making sure that we
have a leash in place, a gate inplace, even to say, hey, I'm

(24:59):
going to step out of the houseand go around to the backyard
where you have a fence and Iwant you to bring Fido on leash
outside in this fenced in area.
So definitely high level bitecases, I'm staying pretty far
from the dog.
There's a lot of dogs that Idon't physically interact with
for a long time, if ever, justto keep them comfortable and
keep them safe.
But I think there's a lot ofdifferent ways that you can

(25:21):
facilitate that safety.
But leashes, gates, lot ofdifferent ways that you can
facilitate that safety.
But leashes, gates, fencingobviously muzzles.
Some dogs come to me with priormuzzle training.
Most don't.
So I think that can be reallydifficult and I think a lot of
times to defer owners to aYouTube video to start muzzle
training.
Some of them get uncomfortable.
They really want to see you inperson and talk to you about it.

(25:42):
So I think those are some ofthe layers of safety that are
really really important, eitherstarting virtually or having a
very clear step-by-step of Ineed the dog put away.
Okay, now we're going to getthe dog out.
But I need you to listen tothose step-by-step instructions
and then even reiterating, oncethey get the dog out, this is
exactly where you're going to go, what you're going to do, when
to put the dog away again.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, and I think that rigidity, or at least the
very clear direction, sets theprecedent for other people.
Right?
So you're going to do this withme as the trainer, but this
will help you practice to what?

Speaker 2 (26:14):
I'm looking for with other people, right, yep, yeah.
Being able to say like okay,exactly what we did today is how
you're going to handle it whenneighbor Sarah comes over
tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, and I think it's part of where our
investigative work starts.
Right, we have to figure outwhat's going to be the best for
safety and management to keep ussafe, based on their unique
case, and also what's going tomake the dog most comfortable
with the safety and managementwe're recommending.
Right, we were talking earlierabout all the little nuances, so
it's not the same in every case.
You could be like, yeah, let'shave your dog outside and fenced

(26:44):
in yard, and you're like, aslong as the weather's nice, and
I'm like what about if?
it's a livestock guardian dogand it's snowing out and they're
like, yeah, I want to beoutside, and then we'd have to
make sure the hair is trimmedout of their face and all these
little things right, that startadding up well, yeah, even down
to the dog guardian's house setup.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
These are the things that I feel like just ignite my
fire is to and also explain itto them.
Okay, see how your front dooris really tight.
It's a really small space.
The dog can't see things rightaway.
We're not going to maybe startthem when you have a guest over
in the laundry room, where theycan't really see and process

(27:24):
very clearly right away.
We might start them in a backroom where, as soon as you open
that door, they're able to seewhat's happening and see that
guess there's no buildup.
So I think that plays a hugerole in it too, as far as
setting things up for successfor everybody.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, that's a really good insight there.
So do you ever feel pressurewhen you get there in terms of
because a lot of our clientsthey feel like they're probably
really nervous How's my doggoing to respond to the trainer,
what's the trainer going to do?
There's a lot of anxiety, I'msure, in that moment.
But the consideration from thetrainer perspective too is how

(27:59):
fast can we try to build arelationship with this dog and
how is that going to impressupon the person that's watching
this?
Because in my mind many timesI'm thinking the client's
probably going towards.
If they're the trainer can'teven get close to my dog.
Who's going to be able to getclose to my dog?
So at the same time we're doingthings, as you know, to ensure

(28:19):
the dog feels as safe aspossible, to take our time, to
go slowly, but at the same timethere's that pressure
subconsciously that you want totry to build a relationship with
this dog, to show results, toshow success.
So give us your thoughts onthat.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, I love this.
I think of a conference I wentto very when I was a baby
trainer and there was a speakerand of course I'm forgetting her
name, but she.
One of her things that she saidthat I have always repeated to

(28:54):
clients and it's one of myfavorite sayings is we have to
feel a lot of pressure.
I think it comes with the jobtitle.
As far as you know, we live ina world of instant gratification
.
People want results reallyquick, similar to my friend that
I talked about saying why can'tthings be black and white, you
know, why can't it be thisreally fast switch.

(29:20):
Think when I explain to themthat my job, coming in from day
one, is not to provoke your dog,not to upset them, to start off
on a really good foot, and byslowing down in those beginning
stages we actually end upstreamlining a lot of the
process.
I think that it really helpsthem to see it.
The most salient way thatpeople will think, okay, this is
going to be worthwhile oruseful is seeing it.
And so, even with having theseparameters of the dog starts

(29:44):
away from me, we talk first,then we're going to get them out
.
We're going to be verymethodical.
Here's all the steps we'regoing to take.
I just had a client who sheunfortunately had a different
trainer come in before me and itwent really poorly and the dog
was really agitated, reallyupset the entire time.
And so me coming in the secondtime as a second opinion and her

(30:04):
, you know, putting her dog awayand kind of getting choked up
and saying like he didn't evenbark at you, you know, to be
able to say, yeah, that's, ourgoal is not to agitate your dog
and to build that trust rightaway, and the way that we do
that is by taking these verythoughtful steps.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
You know, you just said something too.
It's interesting that change,or the difference between you
and the prior trainer.
Obviously a lot has to do withwhat we're doing right, what
we're doing with tools and howwe approach, but I do think
there's some people out there,going back to your first dog,
that you into this is.
There's just something aboutsome people that dogs are going
to feel much more comfortablearound, and the way you're

(30:42):
telling your story is likeJacqueline, I would love to go
speed on a fly and I'll watchyou to see the differences in
the dog's reactions, because Iactually see, definitely see the
same thing.
I think it's definitely how youapproach.
But even if, like you take thesame approach with two different
people, some dogs are justgoing to be more comfortable
with just the demeanor.
Maybe it's the tone of voiceand the movements, but it's just

(31:03):
the subtleties, right?

Speaker 2 (31:05):
Well, and I think something I always touch on
which I think lowers the anxietyof clients as well, is when
they do have a dog that'spresenting as aggressive, which
kind of dabbles into thereactivity lunging, barking,
attempting to get to the personor dog or whatever it might be.
I always set the tone toobefore they bring the dog out of

(31:25):
.
You know, if I don't might bark, that's okay.
You know, we're not, we're,we're totally cool.
And I think that was somethingtoo that I was asked early on in
my career when I was working ina shelter and back when we were
doing, really you know, rigidtemperament tests and kind of
poking at the dog to see whatthey would do.
And I remember a dog that was aknown resource guard or that

(31:48):
came in and I had anothershelter.
I think it was a kennelattendant who sat in on me
assessing this dog and I am justlike you're talking about, like
I'm very calm and that's whatthey said like how do you feel
so calm when this dog might biteyou?
And I think that's a reallyimportant part of being a
consultant or a trainer is we'renot leading with ego in the

(32:12):
sense of like coming in andtrying to like what you know,
what are you going to do?
It's more of like yep, you mighthave a big feeling, you might
lunge at me.
That's okay, that's informationand I will fix or alter what I'm
doing to move forward.
So just kind of coming in matterof fact, and that's a lot of
what I teach when I'm withclients, either in their home or

(32:33):
we're at a public location, andmy clients a lot of times will
joke because I narrate a lot.
It's kind of become a habitwhere I'll either narrate and be
like okay, and as we walkthere's a guy in his yard to the
left that you might not noticeand he's got sunglasses and a
hat, so Sophie might startbarking at him and we're just
going to keep moving.

(32:53):
So I think that is a really notonly for the dog to come in
very chill and very matter offact of you know, I'm not here
to upset you, but I'm also hereto make you feel better.
It's also important for theclient to see that, to see you
know you just not coming injudgmental or harsh or, you know

(33:15):
, reactionary yourself, to justbe like okay, yep, that's,
that's totally what happened,let's move forward or this is
what we can do different nexttime.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, I'm really picking up on those vibes too,
cause I'm thinking like ifthere's ever an apocalypse like
I'd, I'd be cool with hangingout with Jacqueline, cause she's
going to be like totally chillthe whole time.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
Well, people in my real life might say different,
but because I am.
That's the funny part too, Ithink.
Um, I am a person who was, inthe last few years, diagnosed
with generalized anxietydisorder and I went through a
period where I was on medicationfor it.
I'm now not on medicationbecause I had some other side
effects, but, um, it's funnybecause in every other area of
my life I am the panic girl, butwhen it comes to dogs and like

(33:59):
teaching people about their dogs, cool as a cucumber.
So, yes, Interesting.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
It's almost like an outlet for yeah, almost that's
amazing.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
It brings me calm most times, you know it's what I
really enjoy about it islearning more from them, but
also being able to share theknowledge and understanding that
I know to make everybody else'slives better.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, who would have thought like I
want to get into like dogs,almost biting your face off as a
way to just chill out, it'sfine.
So I'm loving how thisconversation is going because
we're kind of leaning into thehuman element of things.
So I'd love to dive more intothat, but we're going to take a
quick break to hear a word fromour sponsors and we'll be right
back.
Hi, friends, it's me again andI hope you are enjoying this

(34:51):
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To learn more or get involved,visit petsforvetscom.
All right, we're back here withJacqueline Drake.
We have been talking about dogto human aggression cases and
we're going to dive a little bitinto the human aspect of things
.
Jacqueline was touching upon itbefore we took a break, but I

(38:07):
guess the question I have foryou what are some of the most
significant impacts you see onyour clients when their dog is
displaying aggression, eithertowards their friends or family
or to themselves?
What are some of the thingsthat you find difficult to
navigate?

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah, there's a lot of emotions and heartache that
can come with dogs that displayaggression towards humans,
whether it's to their ownguardian or to other people.
And again, I think I said thisin the beginning you know the
hard part that I hear all thetime is oh, but I want people to

(38:40):
see the dog, that I seeeverything was great.
And so then the statementthey'll make is why can't it be
like that?

(39:00):
Still, what happened?
Why is this happening?
So it can be really heavy forthe client and a lot of times we
get I get at least a lot ofjokes about oh, you're kind of a
therapist at the same time andwhile I'm not, and there are
certain boundaries to like whatwe'll talk about it is super

(39:21):
important to acknowledge thehuman side of it, because
without the dog guardian, like,we aren't training those dogs,
we're not working with them Imean, unless you're obviously
like in a shelter but the humanis the other half.
So we have to really take timeand I will ask a lot of times.
I've gotten more comfortablewith that in this stage of my
career where, for instance, Ihave a client right now with a

(39:45):
husky who is newly adopted andresource guarding and resource
guarded with one of her children.
You know her kids are older butstill you know I will take time
to say, but still I will taketime to say so.
I want to know how Steven isfeeling about that.
Does he seem apprehensive ofFido now?
Do you feel like was he upsetwhen it happened?

(40:06):
Does he still play with Fido?
Because I want to know thatpiece of it, because that will
determine what we're doing inthe future, but it'll also
determine kind of prognosis aswell, because I think we
definitely need to acknowledgetoo, for both guardians and the
kids or anybody else involved,that it's okay if that trust

(40:28):
gets to a point where it's sobroken that we need to look at
different things.
There's lots of differentoptions for each case.
But again, the human part ofthat, of what's your bandwidth?
How do you feel emotionally?
Do you want to fix this?
How far do you want to go tofix this?
I think it's super, superimportant.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Yes, I'm so glad you brought up considering how the
human relationships are, Becausesometimes we forget about that.
I had a case similar to whatyou're describing, where the
parents had gotten the dog as atherapy dog for their child and
then the dog started to bite thechild that they had originally
gotten the dog as a therapy dogfor and they weren't able to see
clearly see that you know thechild was like.

(41:09):
I don't want this dog, you know.
But the parents are really,yeah, we want to keep the dog
because they, you know, investedin and all this.
But it's hard, you know.
You have to empathize witheverybody the dog, the parents
and the child, because everybodyhas their own viewpoints, I'm
sure in the case, butunfortunately the parents
weren't seeing it, so sometimesthat's part of our job is really
expressing the concerns as wellas helping them see the big

(41:31):
picture of that case.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Yeah, yeah, I would say with that I'm really
thankful for family pausebecause, similar to separation
anxiety, I personally am not aparent, I don't intend on being
a parent.
I'm a really cool auntie.
But you know, I think when weget into expectation versus
reality and kind of dabbles in alittle bit of parenting and

(41:55):
what we're expecting or notexpecting of the kids with their
interactions with the dog, whenit comes to aggression cases,
sometimes I will try to talk tothem, but if I feel like you
know it's not really comingthrough, I love to kind of
divert them and I have somecolleagues that specialize in it
.
They're certified throughFamily Paws and so I'm a big

(42:16):
advocate of like let's get youthe help you need, and so
sometimes those cases do better.
With someone that is a FamilyPaws educator it comes across a
little bit different becausethey specialize in that aspect.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Absolutely yeah, and we work with friends and
colleagues all the time thatspecialize in things, and so
shout out to Jen Shryock, whoruns familypawscom.
If you guys are listening in,you want to check out a great
resource on all things dog tochildren.
Yes, babies, kids, yeahabsolutely so on the human side.
Let's take a little dive intohow much do humans impact the

(42:51):
dog's behavior.
Let's say it's in the home andmaybe it's somebody approaching
the dog's guardian and the dogdisplays aggression.
When that happens Becausethat's a big question we get
right Is how much am Iinfluencing my dog's behavior?
Or I think he's just trying toprotect me, or I think he's
doing this just out of spite orwhatever?
So you have all these differentthoughts.
What are your experiences there?

(43:12):
How much do we need to considerthat influence of what the
person is doing?

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, I think obviously, like I said, you know
, the human side of it is superimportant.
So what they are doing in thatmoment to respond to the dog or
just respond to the situation,it can be critical.
I think of a case actually,just like you were just saying,
where the dog sitting in mom'slap and then any other family
members that approach, you knowthe dog's growling, it's now

(43:38):
escalated to potentially lunging.
And that's always my firstquestion is like so what are we
doing the person approaching?
What are they doing?
What are you doing at thatmoment with the dog?
And I think, even though wewere just recently talking about
like feeling calm and feelingmatter of fact, like I've gotten
away from, if you just exudecalm, then the dog will feel

(44:00):
calm.
I don't necessarily teach that,but it's more so.
Okay, dog is growling, lungingat person approaching.
We are now yelling at that dog.
For me that diverts to hey, thisis actually kind of a safety
issue because for the dog,they're learning that verbal
punishment occurs when they givewarning and I don't want you to

(44:23):
shut off that warning systemand so that's how your response
and your behaviors and youractions are going to influence
this process, and a lot of timesI'll refer to that as taking
the batteries out of our smokedetector.
We don't do that, we wouldn'twant to, and so a lot of clients
will really be able to processthat a little bit better, rather

(44:44):
than coming to them and saying,well, you can't be mean to Fido
just because he's being mean.
Really getting to the reasonswhy we want to be really careful
and critical about how werespond and I think that plays
into like one part of theinstruction or advice that I
give a lot for that specificscenario, if we're going to

(45:05):
approach the dog so that wasalso another question I asked is
why are we approaching the dog?
Are we just like coming up totalk to him or pet him?
Are we just coming to sit byhuman mom and talk to her?
And he's doing that?
And so it came up that, oh well,he hasn't gone potty in a while
, so we're trying to get him upto go potty, and so two things
with that.
One can be okay.

(45:26):
Yeah, if you guys are all goingto leave the house soon and you
need to make sure he's pottied,we can do that.
But let's do it differently.
Let's stand across the room andcall him away instead of
approaching.
Or the other thing which I a lotof times comes up is just like
we're good, just leave him be,like if he's comfortable, he

(45:47):
probably doesn't have to gopotty, so we can just leave him
be.
We don't need to poke the bearin that moment and aggravate him
, and I think in that case too,based on the case details, I
think he's just comfy, he's juston mom's warm lap and doesn't
really want to be bothered orpestered.
We are probably trying tofacilitate too much with him and
so he's saying no, thank you,and we can totally heed that and

(46:07):
say great, no problem, we won'tbother you, or we'll try to
call you across the room and seeif that works better.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Excellent advice.
Again, our consultant brainsdoing the detective work.
We'd be thinking about all theother questions we'd want to ask
you know, is your dog in?
Pain.
Is there anything medical?
Causing it not wanting to getup Right.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
I think what I love too is like you'll ask a
question and for me, like I'llask a question and they'll say
something, and sometimes myclients are like what?
Because I'll make kind of likea face, like I can't hide it.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
I'm like no.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
I just thought of a few other things I want to ask
you now based on that one answer, because it's you know we're
going through the weeds oftrying to figure out what's
happening.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, that happens to me so much I have to actually
jot notes to remind myselfbecause, the question will come
up, and I don't want tointerrupt their stream of
consciousness.
They're telling me something.
I'll write a note, but thatalso cues them like what's wrong
here.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Why is Mike writing a note here?
I always laugh when I have someclients that are like peering
over and they're like well, whatdid you write there?
I'm like I'm not hidinganything.
We'll come back to it At abetter time.
I want you to continue givingme that feedback.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yeah, so you mentioned the common reason for
not yelling at your dog, whichis, you know, you don't want to
remove that warning system.
You don't want the dog to stopgrowling.
When that's a great or atrainer, let's play this role a
little bit where they're like,well, it'll stop the barking, or
it stops the growling when Iyell at them.
So it's working.
Or punishment does work, which,by definition, that's the
definition of punishment.
It does work, or if I do X, y orZ, it'll stop that.

(47:49):
So what's your response next?
To another reason other than wedon't't wanna suppress that
warning signal, but what are the?
Other reasons that you mightgive.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
There's quite a few things that I tend to use for
explanation.
It just depends on how deepthat client is like okay, but
more more reasons.
I really wanna understand this.
So obviously we don't want toshut off our warning system.
The other thing is, yes,punishment will work, but then
you get that false positive.

(48:20):
You have a really nice, quietdog that will let the person
come really close and then weget into a direct bite.
That would be one thing.
Another thing too is to me itboth increases the anxiety and
stress for the human and the dogwhen we're yelling, and it's
really hard and I always saythis with clients it's so hard.

(48:42):
We're human and so we mightimmediately go to yelling.
Especially what I see a lot iswe're in public and we're really
embarrassed.
You know, if our dog goes tobark at anybody, even like one
bark and we're immediately hey,you know.
And yanking on the leash andI'm like, hey, barking is
information, just remember.
You know that that tells youwhere you're at in your lesson.

(49:04):
Do we need more space?
Do we need to take a break?
Has it been too long, thosekinds of things.
So trying to help them realizethat I have a client that'll
joke about needing like astraitjacket when they're
training so that they don't likeinstinctively yank the leash,
or same with having tape ontheir mouth so they don't yell
at the dog.
And I always say, just likeyour dog, it's going to take

(49:26):
time for you to alter yourbehavior.
So while you stand here with mefor the next hour and your dog
might do something and you yell,it's okay.
You know the fact that you evenpause and go oh, dang it, I
didn't mean to do.
That is great.
But I think, with emotions onboth sides to me, what I always
explain is when that dog isexhibiting aggression towards a

(49:49):
person, if we are then yellingor punishing or adding something
to it, to me that kind ofasserts how they feel.
They were already feelingreally negative and they were
adding more negative.
So we're not really helping toinfluence that root cause, which
is really the center focus ofdoing reward-based training and
trying to stay away frompunishment is.

(50:11):
It's like holding a beach ballunderwater.
You know you'll do it for awhile, but it's really hard and
then at some point it's going topop up and it might even pop up
with a bigger wave than you hadin the first place.
So it's.
We want to make sure that we'rereally getting to why the dog is
exhibiting this behavior andtry to alter or fix that,

(50:35):
instead of looking at thesurface level behaviors.
I think there's a graphic.
I don't know if any one persondid this.
I know that Jenny Efimova fromDog Minded she made a graphic
like this years ago, early in mycareer, and I used to show it
to clients all the time.
But it's the iceberg analogy.
You know, we have the tip ofthe iceberg that you can see,

(50:55):
which is your barking, lunging,growling, attempted bites.
What you don't see is theunderneath the bottom of the
iceberg, which is all of youremotions, learning, history,
genetics, all those things.
And so, as seasonedprofessionals, when we come in,
that's what we're alreadyfocused on.
People are like look, you knowhe's lunging, he's barking.
We're like, yeah, but let'stalk about why, what has gone on

(51:16):
.
Let's fix the reason why,instead of focusing on just
yelling at the dog or punishingthem.
In that moment.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yeah, that beach ball analogy is really good.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Yeah, just kind of holding it and suppressing it
down, I love that, yeah, you'restruggling to hold it underwater
and at some point you're goingto get tired and it's just not
going to work well.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Yeah, because, especially when you're looking
at negative balanced emotions orthe dog's just not feeling well
or safe in the environment.
One of the other kind of seguesthe conversation goes to is
what I can never say no to mydog or I can never Right goes to
is what I can never say no tomy dog or I can never right.
And when you think about thedifferences you know a dog
jumping up to grab a sandwichoff the counter.
They're not in a negativebalance of motion typically, in

(51:57):
that moment.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
Right, they're not experiencing fear.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
They're not afraid of the sandwich that's up there,
so saying no to them there mighthave a much different outcome
than if you say no to a dogthat's just trying to protect
themselves from getting yankedoff a couch because they're a
retired racing greyhound.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Right.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Right.
So there's a much differentpotential for a negative
consequence and adding toalready a negative balance of
motion when we use somethingthat's a negative layered on top
of another negative right yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
I love that example of like the stealing the
sandwich, because I feel likethat's always what immediately
comes up of like okay, so you'resaying you know, at no point
should I be basically directingmy dog or just letting them run
the house, letting them be crazy.
And I think what I pivot to andwhat I immediately thought of
is I have an orange fluffy catat home who is I call him, my

(52:50):
sour patch kid and he actuallyis my counter surfer.
So immediately when I'm donecooking he's up on that counter,
he's whole body in the sinktrying to get whatever he can.
And obviously for me as thehuman, you know, my anxiety and
kind of immediate upset is likesanitary right, like I don't
want you on that specificcounter, I don't want you in the
sink Also making sure he's noteating things he shouldn't.

(53:17):
And so even me, as a seasonedprofessional, when I brought him
home as a rescue and he didthat, I'm like, hey, you know,
get off the counter.
And then I'm like, oh my gosh,use your trainer brain, you know
.
And so what I have started to do, I have to hold myself
accountable and look at theantecedent or the thing
preceding what he does, which isI would end up, you know,

(53:37):
rinsing and leaving all mydishes in the sink after making
food, and so of course he has asmorgasbord of stuff sitting in
the drain that he can munch on.
So after any meals or meal prep, that behavior has completely
extinguished because I wipe thecounter down with Clorox wipes
so that there's literally nosmell and no little things left,

(53:59):
and I clean the sink out right,load the dishwasher.
If I don't feel like doing thatright, I at least rinse all the
dishes clean out.
I just have those littlebaskets that catch all the crud
from dishes and stuff.
I at least like dump those inthe trash and you'll see that
even if he does jump up, he'llrealize very quickly and get
right down.
So then I'm not stressing abouthim lingering or looking for

(54:20):
things, but that's kind ofalways what I pivot to.
It's.
It reminds me of, like you know, when you're about to start a
sports game and everybody putstheir hands in right.
So you put your first hand inand you're like no, no, yelling
at your dog.
And then you get another handwhere they're like okay, but
what if they counter-surf?
And then you put another handand you're like if they
counter-surf.
You got to set them up forsuccess.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
I'll add another hand on top of that.
You could have an orange tabby.
I have an orange tabby too.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Oh cool, they care.
Yes, yes, no, it's not part oftheir vocabulary, especially
orange tabbies.
Yeah, I mean cats are.
I think they get a lot oflabels, like our dogs, and I'm
learning a lot of the like youknow, oh, you can't, you can't
do anything with cats.
You can't train them.
Oh, they're very trainable, butthey have different motivations
and different things that getthem going.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
But yeah, oh, yeah, oh yeah, definitely.
So for the dog pros that arelistening in now, let's get into
, like, maybe an advanced caseor a really complex case you've
had.
Can you think of somethingwhere you had some takeaways
from?
So think of something recentlyworked on, or maybe in the past,
where you were like, wow, thisis something that I haven't seen
before, I just got some newinsight on, or I just feel like

(55:25):
this is the case I've learned alot on.
Bring us to that.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Goodness, yeah, I mean, I've been doing this going
on 13 years, so there's a lotof cases that I feel like every
time I have a lesson withanybody, I come home like with
30 light bulbs of like wow, nexttime I'll do this.
Or, you know, next time withthat other person I can
implement the same thing.
I can implement the same thing,I think.
Again, just coming back to thecreativity in each lesson, we

(56:00):
have to look at if thoseprotocols are working and how to
get creative with each dog andone dog I'm thinking of gosh I
forget his breed, I think he wasa sheepdog maybe and
significant human aggression.
He's probably the one dog andI'm always transparent with my
clients where I'm like he makesme hold my breath a little bit.
Something's going on His dogguardians.

(56:21):
They were very different intheir views of traditional vet
care and traditional diets, andso finding treats for him took
some time, like things that wecould use to motivate him, in
addition to their home setupbeing one that was really open,
and so with him, we had to getreally creative, and their dad

(56:44):
actually built like a gatesystem in the front of their
house where it was similar towhat people put on, like their
back wood decks, where the gatewill just like roll open and
roll close.
So it was really convenient forthem.
But I had to get creative, inthat he didn't love being in a
crate and so to do some exposuresessions we'd have the gate up

(57:05):
he was also on leash and wewould ask him to go into a
playpen on cue and then closethat and I would kind of walk
around beyond the gate.
So it's not really necessarilya you know A to Z kind of
explanation.
Give clients ideas based ontheir preferences for their dog,

(57:30):
for raising their dog, as faras diet and set up to keep
everybody safe.
I think sometimes you're goingto have dogs like him that need
a lot of different options, andhe ended up being one that we
worked with outside in hisbackyard.
We had him in the playpen witha leash and a muzzle where I
would eventually get to enterinto the living room.

(57:52):
The rolling gate system I oftenthink about, like with any case,
we're kind of coming in, as youknow, like having a magic hat
where we're trying to pull outall these different ideas and
kind of display them to theclient as far as like, here's
all the things we could do.
What do you think is going towork for you?
And I think that's where thatrolling gate came into play.
He comes to mind because, again,he presented very adamant that

(58:16):
he did not want me in that houseand he would like to land teeth
on me, and so I had to makesure to give them a lot of
options for physical managementfor when I would come and if
anybody else came to the house,depending on, basically, his
mood at that time, becausesometimes they'd be like, oh,
penn, and he would just look atthem like no, I don't want to go

(58:38):
in there right now, and so thenit would be like okay, let's
take a break outside and comeback in and try Penn again, or
being on the leash.
So I would say that's one casethat really stuck with me
because it really forced me toget all of my creative bones
going on how I can meet themwhere they're at but also help
them move forward.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
So tell us a little bit about your secret there in
terms of getting clients,because I've had clients with a
significant amount ofenvironmental management and
lifestyle changes, so you seemlike you have a little knack for
that, if you got somebody doingsliding gates and all these
things you've been mentioning,so do you have a?
You mentioned kind of meetingthem where they're at, but do
you have any other tips on that?

Speaker 2 (59:18):
I think, what I always propose to them.
It's very easy to inundate themwith here's all the things you
need to do, and I think it's Idon't wanna say like a
salesperson, but you're almostmaking sure that you're giving
them the perspective of how thiswill work for them.
You know, if you have this gate, this rolling gate that's

(59:42):
permanently there I know, likeyou've told me, you have a wood
shop in your garage and you'rereally creative If you have this
gate up, that makes it so mucheasier.
And we know there's for sure alevel of safety there.
It's not, you know, a plasticgate that he can knock over.
You guys can see he's jumpingup on it, he's a big dog.

(01:00:07):
So we can cement our safetyroutine and make it really easy,
for anytime I show up, you justslide the gate shut.
So I think, kind of pitching tothem how much easier everyday
life would be if they did that,and also relating the protocols
to not only their practice withaggression and human visitors or
whatever it might be, relatingit to daily life as well.
If they say, oh well, he's areally messy eater, it's like,
oh well, we're also training himto go into as well.

(01:00:28):
You know, if they say, oh well,you know he's a really messy
eater.
It's like oh well, we're alsotraining him to go into this pen
.
You know, you could contain himto that spot.
You could use this for hismeals too.
So I think pointing out to themthe ways that it's going to
benefit them alone, as well asdoing it for their dog, is
really important.

(01:00:56):
I think this happens a lot.
I think of just like.
A side example is I see a lotof cases with dogs on electric
fences and there are a lot ofconsultants with hard limits.
They won't even work with aclient with that.
I kind of come from the placeof we don't all have hundreds of
dollars.
Like I've built a privacy fenceat an old house and it was
expensive and that was years ago, so we don't always have the
resources to put up a privacyfence.
A lot of HOAs don't even allowit.
Understandably, people wantfreedom to have their dog and

(01:01:18):
just roaming around the yard.
So a lot of times you know whenI pitch about hey, this is why
you know I wouldn't recommend ane-fence.
They'll be like well, what do Ido then?
And so like most recently, aperson that lives on a whole
bunch of property.
I'm like, hey, let's try atrolley system.
And they didn't even know whatthat was.
And you're like, oh yeah, thiswill be super nice, like you can

(01:01:39):
just put a little nail in bythe back door and you can hang
the hook there and anytime shegoes out put her on the hook.
It's hands-free, but she's alsocontained and even in the
summer, when the summer comesaround and you're out gardening,
you don't have to worry abouther being on a tie out that's
dragging on the ground andmessing up your garden.
So again, just making sure toreally know, as the consultant,

(01:02:01):
what their life is like, whattheir routines and home setup is
like, and try to make sure tohit on.
Hey, this is actually going tobenefit you in your daily
routine anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Yeah, yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that
epiphany, because I'm alsohaving an epiphany too.
It's just that interviewingmultiple guests for this show.
It seems that many of us startout, we focus on the dog side
which is obviously the mostimportant side when we're
getting into these cases.
But we think about okay, what'scausing the issue, what's the
problem here?
And we start to just get it.

(01:02:33):
We start to see the same thingsover and over and then usually
at around the 10-year mark soyou've been doing this 13 years,
but around that one side I seesomebody that's been doing this
10 years or more they reallyjust start focusing on all the
human dynamics.
That's the difficulty in thesecases and the more interesting
thing to talk about is all thehuman stuff and like talking to
the humans and how to navigatethose things and the skills to

(01:02:55):
convince somebody.
And you mentioned that thesalesperson hat we have to put
on.
And it's so interesting to methat, yeah, we get the dog stuff
, especially if you're focusingon one particular aspect.
You see so much of the samestuff but the humans not so much
.
So keeps us on our toes.
So before we wrap up, I'd loveto give you a chance to kind of
chat about what you're workingon now, where people can find

(01:03:17):
you, as well as just mentionthat Jacqueline is going to be
giving the dog to human sectionof the dog guardian course.
That will have been released atthe time of this episode.
So go check that out, but tellus more about what you got going
on.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Yeah, so at this point in my career I've worked
with a lot of dogs and a lot ofpeople, whether in shelters or
directly in their homes.
I think the shift over the nextprobably five years is more
wide scale teaching, kind ofteaching the next generation I
feel old when I say that, butI'm not Of you know bringing in

(01:03:53):
apprentices and kind of coachingthem.
I recently started up Patreon,so almost all of my social media
handles are training byJacqueline, but with Patreon
it's behavior brain, and soreally my focus is more so on
having more resources to themasses, whether that's trainers

(01:04:14):
and consultants or dog guardiansas well.
I'm looking at building somemore free resources for shelters
in my area.
In conjunction with that, I'mfinishing my master's degree, so
I have some really excitingresearch that I'll have data on
in May that I'm really excitedto share with the community, and
I definitely want to continuein that world as well.

(01:04:37):
It's been very, very interestingand I think I'm fortunate to
have kind of a leg up, because Icame into the academic world
with so much practitionerexperience and knowledge and so
I think that really helps withbuilding certain studies, kind
of what we're recommending andwhat people are dealing with.
So, yeah, just switching gearsinto more mass teaching,

(01:04:59):
obviously being a part of thecourse, which is really exciting
, and even doing case reviews.
So I've done that a couple oftimes since becoming a mentor
with aggressive dogs, so havingother trainers say, hey, can I
meet with you to discuss thiscase and get some ideas of what
you would do or what I could dodifferently.
I think I have a lot to offer,being this far into my career on

(01:05:21):
basically that mentoring morethan direct teaching.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
So I love it.
I love it.
Thank you so much for being aresource to the aggressive dog
community and beyond, and Idefinitely wish you well in all
your future ventures.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show, jacqueline, and I
hope to see you again in thefuture.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Thanks, Mike.
It's great to be on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
It was a real pleasure chatting with
Jacqueline and hearing herinsights on navigating the
emotional and behavioralcomplexity of human-directed
aggression in dogs.
Her thoughtful approach anddedication to both the dogs and
the people who care for them isa good reminder that this work
is as much about compassion asit is about technique.
And if you're ready to godeeper into understanding and

(01:06:07):
helping dogs with aggression,visit AggressiveDogcom.
Whether you're a professionalor a dedicated dog guardian,
you'll find everything from theAggression in Dogs Master Course
, which is the mostcomprehensive program of its
kind, to expert-led webinars,informative articles and the
Aggression in Dogs Conferencehappening from September 26th
28th 2025 in Charlotte, northCarolina, with both in-person

(01:06:31):
and virtual options.
And don't forget to check outour Help for Dogs with
Aggression bonus episodes, whichare solo shows where I walk you
through real-world strategiesfor issues like resource
guarding, fear-based aggression,territorial behavior and more.
Just hit, subscribe or head tothe show notes for more info.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay wild, my friends.