From Training to Welfare: A Shift in Thinking with Kim Brophey

What if many dog behavior problems aren't actually problems at all, but symptoms of unmet welfare needs? In this thought-provoking conversation with applied ethologist Kim Brophey, we explore how the LEGS model (Learning, Environment, Genetics, Self) has evolved to reshape our understanding of canine behavior and welfare in modern environments.

Kim explains why behavioral diversity serves as both a critical welfare need and a powerful measurement tool. When dogs can express a wide range of natural behaviors, from foraging and exploration to appropriate hazard management...with agency and autonomy, they thrive. Yet in today's captive environments, many dogs lack these opportunities, leading to what we label as "problem behaviors."

The discussion takes us deep into the five domains model of animal welfare and how it applies to our companion dogs. While we've generally excelled at meeting biological needs like nutrition and health, we've significantly neglected the fourth domain of behavioral interactions and the natural living needs that are fundamental to a dog's wellbeing. This creates a mismatch between a dog's genetic design and the environment they actually live in.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
In the season finale of the Bitey End of the Dog, I
have the pleasure of chattingwith my good friend, kim Brophy
about the evolution of the legsmodel and how it's shaping our
understanding of dog behaviorand welfare.
We explore how many behaviorproblems are actually symptoms
of unmet needs and why a moreholistic approach is essential

(00:24):
in today's world.
We also discuss the importanceof behavioral diversity as a
welfare indicator, the role ofsecure attachment in the
human-animal bond and theethical challenges of modern
breeding practices.
And ultimately, we reflect onhow dogs help reconnect us with
nature and with ourselves.

(00:45):
Kim is an applied ethologistand accomplished behavior
consultant and trainer who hasbeen working with dogs and their
families for over 25 years.
Her legs model of integratedcanine science has been embraced
internationally as her bookMeet your Dog and market
Disrupting Applied Ethology,family Dog Mediation Course and

(01:08):
the Dog's Truth Documentarycontinue to catalyze a worldwide
initiative to welcome in awelfare-first approach to our
canine relationships andprofessional work.
And before we jump into today'sepisode, a quick heads up If
you're looking to learn moreabout helping dogs with
aggression issues, head over toAggressiveDogcom, because we've

(01:29):
got something for everyone.
For pet pros, there's theAggression in Dogs Master Course
, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
on aggression anywhere in theworld, packed with expert
insights and CEUs For dogguardians.
Check out Real Life Solutions,a practical course for everyday
challenges like leash reactivityand dog-to-dog aggression.
And if you want full access toexpert webinars, live mentor

(01:52):
sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access membership
is just $29.95 a month.
You'll also find info on the2025 Aggression to Dogs
Conference happening inCharlotte this September.
That can all be found ataggressivedogcom.
Check it out.
After the show.
Hey everyone, welcome to thisseason finale of the Bitey End

(02:15):
of the Dog.
I'm here with my good friend,kim Brophy.
Kim's been on the show a coupletimes.
We've done a lot over the yearstogether, so I'm really excited
to jump into this episode.
We're going to dive into whatshe's been up to now and what's
top of mind for her.
So welcome to the show, kim.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Thanks, mike, it's really fun to be back.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, it's great to have you here and I want to jump
into one of the first episodeswe had.
We were talking about legs, thelegs model, so learning,
environment, genetic, self,which was groundbreaking to the
industry, and it's evolved alittle bit and some of your
thoughts have evolved, I shouldsay, since then.
So let's talk about what you'vebeen up to these days and how

(02:55):
it's developed over the last fewyears and your mindset around
it.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, yeah, you know it's interesting because legs
was kind of born out of myfrustration, over the course of
a decade or more, of feelinglike we were misunderstanding
dog behavior problems, right.
So in that misunderstanding ofwhat we were looking at, kind of

(03:19):
going about our interventionsin a way that wasn't necessarily
going to get to the root ofwhatever was going on for that
dog.
So a lot of that has been justus appreciating that bigger
picture and being able tocontextualize behavior in that
ultimate framework like we wouldfor any other captive species,
right, we've been busyswallowing some bitter pills for

(03:40):
the last three years and tryingto kind of like smooth that
experience of swallowing thatreality that like, oh my gosh,
like our dog's lives have reallychanged in the last few decades
and they are increasinglycaptive and you know they are
having behavior problems as aresult of that, and so how can
we understand a given dog andwhat's going on for them?

(04:02):
By breaking down those legs andunderstanding the whole picture
of their phenotype, right.
So that's where things were atand, frankly, before we put all
of that out, it felt like theindustry had been really
uncomfortable really evenlooking at that, you know, and
so I'm quite positivelyencouraged by the progress we've
made in just the last few yearsin terms of people

(04:24):
acknowledging that this is aproblem, acknowledging that
behavior problems can besymptoms of welfare problems and
we need to do a better jobmeeting needs.
So one of the fair criticisms,in a sense, but also it's just a
matter of timing and evolutionthat we've had of you know, our
platform has been like well, youknow, it's so problem focused.

(04:45):
They're talking about, likethese are all problems that
we're having, because dogs arehaving these problems and we
need to understand thepredicament for what it is and
break it down.
But but what do we do about it?
Right, and from the very firstmoment that I put the legs
course out, I kind of invited toall of the students I need your
help figuring out what we doabout this.
I'm going to be painting apicture of these problems that

(05:06):
dogs are having and I don't haveall the answers yet, right, and
so I need you, industry, tocontribute to this conversation.
And so that's very muchhappened and people have shown
up in spades to throw their hatin the ring and be part of this
collective collaboration, thisvery much grassroots movement to
do better for dogs and figureout what that looks like.
And so at this point, we'reactually ready to go to the next

(05:30):
step in the industry and becomemuch more practical about what
it looks like to apply modernanimal welfare models and
science to the benefit of ourpet dogs.
And so that's what I've beenworking on for 2025 and
presenting at all of these majorconferences to invite the
industry into the nuts and boltsof that, so that we can start

(05:53):
changing what it looks like forpets in homes, in our businesses
and in our communities in orderto meet their needs better in a
concrete way, based on thatanimal welfare science.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
So let's talk more about that.
The welfare let's define thatfirst of all, just for the
audience, how do you define that?

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, so you know, welfare is definitely something
that, depending on what fieldyou're looking at, you'll get
different definitions if youjust throw that into Google.
But from the animal welfarescience perspective we can
understand that as the fivefreedoms having evolved into the
five domains.
It's basically the same thingjust with a lot more important
nuance and understanding.
But essentially, you know, wehave these kind of biological

(06:34):
functioning domains of welfare.
So there's considered thesethree orientations at this point
, biological functioning beingthe first.
We've done a pretty good jobwith pet dogs and loving homes
with that.
So that's their nutrition, thephysical comfort of their
environment, not so much what itaffords them behaviorally, but
just like it's a safe,appropriate kind of environment

(06:55):
for them and then their health,right.
So those are the biologicalfunctioning kinds of elements of
the five domains and that's oneorientation.
Then we have the natural livingor the behavioral interactions
element.
So there's that orientation oflike, what is the animal able to
do in terms of interactionswith the environment, other

(07:15):
animals, people, and how doesthat then give them the
opportunity to follow through onthose inborn kind of highly
motivated behaviors for foraging, hazard avoidance, reproductive
and social behaviors?
Right, how can they be who theyare in the environment.
So that fourth domain is reallythe natural living orientation.
That's where we're franklyfailing the most.

(07:36):
And what's really wonderfulwith the kind of updated five
domains model that wasn't somuch available in the five
freedoms model, although it wasreferenced, is the idea that all
of those things of biologicalfunctioning and natural living
that populates the mental stateor the affective state of the
animal, which is the fifthdomain, and so, even though I
think it's on our radar to beconcerned with the affective

(08:00):
state and I think for anyconscientious professional like
that's something that we're allworking towards we haven't
really appreciated what thatmeans in terms of, particularly,
again, that natural living,that fourth domain of behavioral
interactions.
We haven't been populating itbased on the animal's phenotype,
like they do for other captivespecies.

(08:20):
And so welfare is thisbasically it's the effective
state, is the animal's welfarestate.
But what's under the hood ofthat is all that biological
functioning and natural living.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Let's talk about how we measure that more so, because
I think that's one of thetopics that come up how do you
know?

Speaker 2 (08:39):
How do?

Speaker 1 (08:39):
you operationalize that?
How do we know what the animalmight be feeling from an
effective state?
Or you know what type ofbehaviors are we looking for, so
help us tie some of thattogether.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah, yeah, so, and actually that's it's interesting
, because the source, origin ofthe three orientations in the
perspective of animal welfarescience was based on that very
question, right, so it's likethere was a group of individuals
that said, well, we know theyhave good welfare based on
biological functioning, right,so as long as they're healthy

(09:09):
and they're well fed, they arecomfortable in their environment
physically, well, then we knowthey have good welfare.
And there's people like, well,do we really know that?
What about the affective state,what about the emotions?
And then people say, yeah, buthow do we know how the animal's
feeling?
How can we ask them, how aboutjust measuring cortisol, things

(09:30):
like that?
Is that really telling usenough?
Not necessarily right.
And then, with the naturalliving, there was definitely
some idea that, like, we can getmore information about, you
know, how the animal's welfareis based on whether they're
doing this behavior or not doingthis behavior, etc.
But then the focus was reallyfor a while on stereotypical
behavior or absence ofstereotypical behavior, when we
were looking, you know, at thatfor evidence and so what it's

(09:51):
evolved into and what's kind ofbeen relatively recent and
somewhat groundbreaking in myopinion, because it's it's a
wonderful way for us toappreciate this objectively and
kind of accomplish.
What you're suggesting we verymuch need is some kind of
something we can sink our teethinto, so to speak, about how to

(10:12):
work with this and know if ourwork is being effective.
Is that fourth domain ofbehavioral interactions?
It is both meant to besomething we have to meet the
needs of as a domain, meant tobe something we have to meet the
needs of as a domain, and it isalso an indice of welfare, and

(10:32):
so that became a starting point.
Like behavior is how we know.
It's the evidence of whetherall of these other things are
functioning cohesively and,furthermore, it's diversity of
behavior that will tell us aboutthat animal's welfare state.
So, for any given species,there are all of these suites
basically ethograms right thatare populated specifically for
that species, with theirforaging behaviors and all the

(10:55):
subcomponent emergent motorpattern pieces of all of those
behaviors that then get chainedtogether into sequences.
You have all of these suites offoraging, hazard avoidance,
reproductive, social behaviorsthat are unique to that
particular species, and so whenwe are looking at an animal that
would be in nature, you wouldsee a high level of behavioral

(11:17):
diversity, out of necessity,where they would be employing
diverse dynamic suites andvariations of those behavior,
you'd have some evenness acrossthe board.
As long as that animal'swelfare was good in nature,
you're not going to seeexcessively high representations
of one or two specificbehaviors that are starting to
become a little neurotic, thingslike that.

(11:38):
Both because you have naturalselection going on, that's
selecting against that on thegenetic level, and then you have
a natural selection happeningfor those animals in real time
the ones that are adaptingbetter, they're going to stay,
you know, alive and in the genepool, the ones that are going to
be selected against, and soit's meant to constantly have
that best interest of theorganism in mind through that

(11:59):
process of natural selection.
So for us, when we're looking atanimals in captivity, we want
to be able to look at howclosely does the environment
that this animal is living innow mirror their original or
natural environment, the idealenvironment for them, so that we
have this overlap between thatanimal's genetic preparedness to

(12:20):
solve problems and the problemsthey're actually facing in
captivity, which means they'llbe employing all those diverse
suites of behavior in order tosolve problems and the problems
they're actually facing incaptivity, which means they'll
be employing all those diversesuites of behavior in order to
solve those problems in theirenvironment, and it's meant to
be done with agency, withautonomy.
That's how we know right aboutthat diversity of behavior.
So it's not how many tricks canI teach my dog, that's
diversity of behavior.

(12:40):
It's what do they do of theirown volition in regards to those
suites of behavior and how, howrich is it and how evenly is it
distributed?
And so that's going to reallykind of change the math for us,
as we have to look at our ownwork and say, okay, so what is
this dog's diversity of behaviorlike when I meet them and I
start working with them, andwhat is it like three months

(13:02):
after I've put theseinterventions in place?
Have I improved that diversityof behavior or not?

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Let's use an example so we can think what this looks
like in application.
So let's use this Cavapoo I'mstaying with you.
So for the listeners, my bestfriend's Cavapoo staying with us
for a week, which is he's awayon vacation, so he's, let's just
say, vocal and ishyper-vigilant and if we were to

(13:29):
put a label on it very muchlistening all the time for
whatever's happening in theworld, and we live in a pretty
quiet neighborhood but he'sletting us know anytime a leaf
rustles outside or anything likethat.
So when we talk aboutbehavioral diversity, so what
would I be looking for in termsof you haven't been to my home
yet, but picture, you know, liketypical suburban home and we've

(13:51):
got this dog staying with us.
We have another dog, our owndog, and a cat in the
environment as well.
My 18 year old son lives here aswell.
So talk us through that Like,give us some examples of what
you would be thinking, whatyou'd be looking for.
Or let's say you're myconsultant and you're like hey,
mike, let's see what's going onhere.
And we want to reduce this sortof hyper-visual and barking at
everything sort of anxious.

(14:13):
If I was to describe andeffective state would be sort of
frustrated, kind of fearful ofsome things, but not really
overtly.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
Again, painting a little just like a client would
A little character picture here,yep, and so if we're thinking
about, you know, first of all wehave a toy breed, so they're
going to be a little bit moreinherently suited to an indoor
environment than some otherbreeds.
Ideally we would populate thelegs.
We won't go down a rabbit holewith that.
Now It'll take too much timefor the sake of this example.
Now it'll take too much timefor the sake of this example,

(14:44):
but we would populate the legsof that dog, you know, get a
good learning history, look attheir original intended
environment, their currentenvironment, how well those
things are matching what's goingon in their current environment
as far as excitability, thingsthat might be, you know,
facilitating this or orpreventing improvement.
Looking at the genetics,looking at the internal
conditions of the dog's sex, age, health, things like that,
individual personality, etc.

(15:06):
And so we would be populatingit from that.
And then we would be looking at, like, the diversity of
behavior.
Essentially, you know, we aredeveloping a list which actually
by the time this podcastepisode comes out should be
ready anyway of kinds ofexamples of behaviors that the
professional could go throughand check off like is this dog
exhibiting this behavior, youknow?
And so a list of kind of likecomponents of motor behaviors

(15:29):
related to foraging, hazardavoidance and management.
It's not necessarily a badthing, hazard management and see
like, okay, so what are weseeing with this?
Right now?
I would wager that when youfirst did that assessment and
you go through and you'relooking at like how much
diversity of behavior you'regetting, you're going to be
getting excessive representationof things like hazard avoidance
, alert, barking right Likereacting to potential threats in

(15:52):
the environment and things likethat.
So we'd like to see that becomemore even or diminished.
Not that any of it is a problem, but we want to see other
behaviors start to take up morespace in the scope of that dog's
diversity of behavior range.
So we'd want to be seeing moreforaging behaviors.
And again, right now, of course,this is on people's radar with

(16:13):
enrichment and we're trying toprovide things like puzzle
feeders and you know puzzle toysand treat dispensers and licky
mats and different enrichmentactivities and doors and all
that.
And that's wonderful for anenrichment activities indoors
and all that and that'swonderful.
But one of the things thatwe've been missing is the fact
that the provisions that we'regiving them need to be something
they can self-serve.
So it's.
Then we're immediately lookingat the indoor environment and

(16:35):
maybe even the outdoorenvironment that this dog
routinely has access to, wherethey can self-serve a nice
variety of different kinds offoraging behaviors.
Right, foraging is a lot morethan just, like you know,
sniffing for something andeating it.
So, while things like sniffarisand chewing on bones are
technically, of course, in thatforaging category, also things

(16:57):
like digging, you know, thingslike foot stabs, things like
chasing, things like tracking,like foot stabs, things like
chasing, things like tracking,things like rooting or rummaging
or pulling, you know, there'sjust so many pieces of those
behaviors when we just look atsomething like a category like
foraging, and we want to see asmany different kinds of them as
we possibly can, and we want itto be something again that the

(17:20):
dog can self-serve.
So when they feel themotivation to engage in those
behaviors, something in theenvironment is afforded to them,
it's provided for them thatgives them the chance to do that
.
And so that's where we have somuch work in front of us as an
industry, because we can havethese lists of all of these
behaviors that ideally we wantto see represented in our dogs,
to know their welfare isoptimized.

(17:42):
But quite frankly, this is theproblem between our dog's
genetic design and modernenvironments.
We have to to make our livesand their lives easier, honestly
, get them out of the house.
We've got to get them out innature more.
I took my dogs to a 15-acrefenced sniff spot recently.
Absolutely remarkable and whatjust was so striking.

(18:02):
I recorded most of the wholething because I was just so
intrigued just watching them.
All of the things that we needto be able to afford for dogs in
a wonderfully enriched naturalenvironment that you didn't have
to design Like.
They're afforded for them,they're provided for them.
They can engage in any numberof those suites of behaviors.

(18:23):
They have the right signals inthe environment, like a scent of
a mouse in the tall grass inthe field that they can track
down and they can do a littledigging and rooting and foot
stabbing and bright, like theenvironment invites it, it
evokes it, and the more thatthey're engaging in those
behaviors, the more diminishedthose kinds of neurotic,
excessive, frustrated,disoriented sweets of behaviors

(18:46):
are going to become.
And it's a total mental shiftfor us, right as professionals.
Instead of modifying just theevidence of whatever those unmet
needs or the dysfunction isreally looking at what we can do
for that particular dog in yourhouse while you're working in
your fence yard.
If you have it in yourcommunity, if you've got places,
you can go for those hikes,sniff spots, et cetera and,

(19:09):
frankly, putting a little moreon our shoulders as their
caretakers to get creative andmotivated about designing these
kinds of resources in ourcommunities.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
And another thought that I had was to determine so
you mentioned the types of, whenwe say, behavioral diversity.
It could be things like barkingand alert barking, you know.
So things that are in anegative, balanced effective
state versus things that are ina we could argue would be a
positive, balanced effectivestate, like sniffing, foraging,

(19:40):
chasing, would you say.
That's true, like that's whatyou're looking for is more
behavioral diversity in thepositive effective states.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yes, and also I think that we have maybe
oversimplified the suite ofbehaviors related to hazard
avoidance as necessarilynegative.
So, for instance, like alertbarking isn't necessarily a
negative effective state as amatter of fact, being able to
respond appropriately topotential hazards by
investigating the source of them, right, potentially, especially

(20:10):
for certain breeds of dogs likewe've talked about in the past,
say guardian breeds that wereparticularly developed to step
up to the plate, havingopportunities to investigate the
source of that potential threat, and to potentially step up to
that plate in order to draw somekind of boundary, protect a
territory.
That isn't necessarily anegative balance.
We've talked a lot about howhighly reinforcing a lot of
those behaviors can be, and sothere's some wonderful examples

(20:33):
that David Malour, who developedthe five domains as the updated
five freedoms model, givesabout kind of like how you would
break it down in terms of whatwould be positive and what would
be negative, what would bedetrimental or not, and, frankly
, what tips the scale mostprofoundly isn't whether or not
the animal has a moment offacing adversity, for example,

(20:54):
or even being a little fearfulin response to hearing something
, seeing something, experiencingsomething.
It's that they have the tools intheir toolbox as the animal
that they are with the legs,that they have to respond to it
in a way that resolves thatdisruption, that allostatic
state that arises because ofthat event in the environment,

(21:17):
so that they can return tohomeostasis.
So it's that like functionalhey, I've got the tools to solve
that problem.
Whereas what happens incaptivity that's so troublesome
and really does create thatnegative balance, is that kind
of like the helplessness or thefrustration or the confusion
where I don't know what to do tosolve this problem.
I don't have anything availableto me to autonomously navigate

(21:40):
these conditions.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Now, how do you navigate the conversational
questions that probably wouldcome up here?
It's like, okay, how do youknow when you're pushing things
too much by allowing the animalto problem solve?
So you're out with the dog likeChewy and we're saying, okay,
this is great, because now he'ssniffing more, or maybe he's
more interested in exploring theenvironment versus before.

(22:04):
He's just so hyper-visually hecouldn't focus on even sniffing,
so to speak.
But at the same time you'relike all right, there's a biker
going by and there's somethinghe's going to bark at.
So that whole thresholdconversation comes up and like,
oh, we've got to really isolatethe dogs to protect them from
going over threshold,experiencing these stressors and
sort of what we've seen happenin some parts of the industry,

(22:25):
where it's like forming a bubblearound the dog which is not
necessarily a bad thing.
It's just that I'm assuming thatyou might get questions about
okay, stress resiliency is a bighot topic these days.
And what about hazard avoidance?
Where do we allow the dog toexperience that and figure
things out, versus where we haveto step in?

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, no, that's a great question and these are the
kinds of things that, as welook at practical application of
this, we're going to run into.
So, for instance, if we look athow can we provide experiences
for the dog in cases where it'savailable to them to solve their
own problems, in a way wherethey can experience that bounce
back right, they can employwhatever natural mechanisms they

(23:09):
have in order to get them backto homeostasis when they face
something that's scary.
So I'll use my sniff spotexample yesterday as a wonderful
kind of example of what wecould give our dogs as routine
experiences.
So they're facing a littleadversity, but it's not the bike
situation which I'll get to injust a second.
So she, for instance, heardLGDs, livestock guardian dogs on

(23:31):
the other side of the pondwhere we were in the sniff spot.
They had goats over there andchickens and guineas and cows
and all this and of course, assoon as they see us on the other
side of the pond, they'rebarking.
She doesn't know that there's afence there.
She doesn't know that they'renot going to come running around
the field and attack her.
So, as a hazard avoidanceresponse of noticing and
alerting to that, I'm able togive her information and start

(23:52):
showing and demonstrating inthis very safe, controlled
environment that, like I haveinformation, I can let you know
that that is not somethingthat's dangerous to you, and
then you can experiment withyour own behavior.
If you want to come close to me, you can.
If you want to step up to itand investigate it a little bit
more and maybe, like, movetowards the location of the
sound, you can.

(24:12):
Same thing happened with.
She looked over the dock andthe pond and she saw her
reflection and she thought therewas a dog that looked, I guess,
just like her, that was comingout from under the dock.
So she stepped back and growledright.
But then she went around andshe wanted to investigate it and
look under the dock.
And I'm talking to her andgiving her information about all
that.
So the pieces I want to drawattention to there are the

(24:33):
natural environment gives themthe ability to practice and
develop that resilience and thatresponse to hazard avoidance in
a way that makes sense to themand it's easier, it's a much
lower hanging fruit for them tostart building that muscle and
so giving also, in addition tothat, the information.
So we're starting to introduceour social currency and how we

(24:56):
can be helpful and we can say Iknow that that's not a threat,
that's just a dog.
You know what that means and Ican say that you're safe and you
can understand what that meansso that when we go into that
human situation with the bicyclewe also have built up a little
bit of predictability and yourreliance on me and that secure
attachment that I haveinformation and I'm going to you

(25:18):
know, keep you safe.
But then to answer that secondquestion about the bike, this is
one of the really interestingthings that happens for any
species in captivity, so notjust dogs.
One of the primary functions andI just heard Ken Ramirez speak
on this again at the AssistanceDogs International Conference
last week and I love that hebrings this into the training
conversation repeatedly throughKPA and all of his work One of

(25:41):
the primary functions for anyanimal in captivity of training
is to bridge that gap betweenthe animal's genetic
preparedness to solve theproblems in their world and the
environment they actually findthemselves in, because that's
where they're lacking.
They need a hand, they need usto build the bridge.
So I would not say put a dog inmodern conditions that they are

(26:02):
not prepared to solve theproblems in and just let them
figure it out with agency.
So I love that you bring thisup, because these are the kinds
of distinctions of the weedswe're going to get into that are
really going to be important sothat we can say we have to
optimize the experiences theyhave where it's appropriate to
give them all that agency.
But then when they're in ahuman set of conditions that

(26:24):
they do not have the aptitudeand natural proficiency to
navigate that we're there givingthem information, teaching them
skills, teaching them habitsand predictability, reinforcing
the right responses to thingsright.
That's where training is notonly helpful, it's necessary and
part of any good welfareprogram.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
And thinking through this and taking a step back, you
mentioned the attachment andthe relationship.
So obviously in much of thisdiscussion we're assuming there
is a relationship between theanimal and the handler or the
person working with them.
Talk about that a little bit.
And because now we're talkingabout a lot of things that are
hard to measure, hard to liketrack data on Be like okay, what

(27:08):
does it look like?
What do we know if the dog isreally saying okay, I need some
help here, avoiding this hazard,or I can figure it out on my
own.
So there's a lot of nuances.
Some help here, avoiding thishazard, or I can figure it out
on my own.
So there's a lot of nuances.
I think that you know forsomebody maybe they're just
starting out with their firstdog it's going to be a lot of
things to juggle right.
The training mechanics, thegetting building the
relationship with their dog,recognizing when their dog's

(27:28):
behavior is diverse, and allthese things we're talking about
.
Where do you start?
Or kind of help us wrap ourheads around that part of the
conversation.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah.
So it's interesting because, inpart of my own quest to answer
that question for myself abouthow critical is the relationship
and the secure attachmentrelative to our kind of
historical transactional modelin the dog training industry
right, because I was kind ofbrought up in the field at a

(28:01):
time when we were really pushingtransactions and mechanical
skills as being kind of likewhere it's at and this isn't a
criticism against any one of usthat have employed all of that
we all have as trainers exactlyright, like so things like look
at me right or shaping check-insI mean this is what I did
throughout my career.
Right, like so things like lookat me right or shaping
check-ins I mean this is what Idid throughout my career.
Right, like, we taught all ofthese behaviors that we create

(28:22):
reinforcement criteria for or,in some cases, punishment
criteria for, depending on youknow what your approach is to
these things, and we're tryingto shape the connection right
Through the application oflearning principles.
And so, with my last three dogsCasey being for those who you
know, don't know about the storyshe was my heart dog that

(28:43):
challenged me and said I don'tcare about anything in your tool
bag.
You're going to have to workway harder than that lady these
transactions aren't going to dosquat for me and she challenged
me right to throw away theskills that I developed in that
tool bag to figure out what thatmeant for her.
And so I kind of went back towhere I'd started in the
beginning of my career before Ikind of adopted all of those
skills and kind of habits, ifyou will, as a trainer to think

(29:06):
about like what is thatrelationship, what does that
actually mean?
And so I've been grateful forhaving people come into the
industry, people like MarleneO'Neill-Libergege I know she'll
be speaking at the Aggression inDogs Conference this year who
bring in the understanding fromthe human psychology profession
and field and sciences aboutwhat secure attachment is and
what that looks like.

(29:26):
And it doesn't requiretransactions in the way that
we're used to it, right.
And so long story short, inemploying that kind of a model
with my dogs being my, you know,short, and employing that kind
of a model with my dogs being myyou know, three time experiment
here with Casey Monk and nowEarly and doing very little
training.
So, for instance, I haven'treally trained a formal recall,
I haven't trained to heal, Ihaven't trained to check in.

(29:49):
I haven't free shaped eyecontact, any of that stuff.
And in the last year here Ihave an intact one and a half
year old Great Pyrenees, who aretextbook wanderers, independent
you know, do their own thing,not compliant by definition for
those who've worked with a lotof them.
And so in this 15 acre sniffspot yesterday it's the largest

(30:12):
place I've taken her she didn'tknow that it's fenced right so
she could have at any point,just been like see ya.
So without giving any kinds ofcommands, instructions,
directions, shaping, using anykind of criteria for
reinforcement, punishment, etc.
No tools, nothing.
She stayed with me and followedmy movements for the whole hour

(30:34):
.
We were there without me havingto ask for it.
I'm not saying everybody justneeds to do this with all their
clients' dogs.
What I'm trying to do is answeryour question to the extent of.
I think that we've gotten sointo the transactional model
that we forget that dogsnaturally want to bond socially.
We humans are part of thathistory, so it does complicate

(30:57):
it for most other captivespecies where, for most captive
species, we are not and neverwill be part of their actual
social group.
Right, with very few exceptionsif an animal imprints on
someone during their criticalperiod, things like that.
But by and large, that's notgoing to happen, whereas we are
part of that social group and Ithink we miss a lot of
opportunities to build up oursocial currency with our dogs,

(31:20):
to demonstrate to them we aresomeone worth following,
listening to, you know,connecting with, keeping track
of, so that, like, we don't haveto artificially manufacture
that in the same way, we thinkabout having a relationship with
each other in this world, right, I don't need to shape my
friends to hang out with me,right, and to like, I hope, I
hope not anyway, I hope theywant to be around me and that we

(31:42):
have these natural, organicconnections.
I will say I am not blind to thefact that that's not going to
happen for a lot of our clientsdogs, which is why, again, we as
trainers come in and we bridgethat gap between that dog social
environment and the genetics ofwhat they need socially,
because their family, in fact,might not be able to give it to
them.
So part of what I'm alsoinviting the industry to look at

(32:04):
and I'm so excited that somepeople are already doing it is
to redesign service models that,instead of trying to get a
client to become someone they'renot going to be or turn the
social environment intosomething it will never be.
Knowing the dog's lacking intheir needs, how can we be that
person?
How can we pick up a group ofdogs every morning, spend six

(32:26):
hours with them, fill all ofthese various needs, including
those social needs for secureattachment, and bring home a
tired, satisfied dog at the endof the day, you know who truly
has great welfare and frankly,that sounds a lot more fun than
just working with like 10clients in a row, like hanging
out with dogs and meeting theirneeds and socially bonding with

(32:46):
them.
But so that's a very longanswer to your question.
But I think the secureattachment is very important,
but I'm also realistic enough toknow that it often doesn't
happen and we have to be able toaccomplish things in different
ways.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
I'm loving how this conversation is going and I want
to dive into the future of theindustry as well, as you know
the models you were just talkingabout but we're going to take a
quick break to hear a word fromour sponsors and we'll be right
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All right, we're back here withKim Brophy and we're going to
dive into the future of ourindustry, kind of based on what
you're talking about there.
You had mentioned, you know, amodel of imagine just bringing

(34:49):
the dogs to that 15-acre sniffspot and giving them their needs
or meeting those needs and allthe things we've been talking
about.
So you know when you thinkabout behavior and so many of
the behavior issues let's talkabout, maybe compulsive
behaviors, right?
So I've just had Dr Hagar Hazer, who's a veterinary behaviorist
, and we were talking a littlebit about compulsive behaviors
and the treatment for that.

(35:10):
You and I have talked about it.
You just don't see thosecompulsive behaviors out in
nature because it just doesn'tmake sense.
So part of that treatment,we've always learned that
enrichment is a big buzz termfor working with compulsive
behaviors and really avoidingstereotypies and things like
that.
So that whole let's get out tothat 15-acre place seems like a

(35:32):
perfect treatment for lack of abetter term, of something that
can be a compulsive behavior.
So talk more about that.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yeah, so compulsive behaviors, it's really
interesting.
So Temple Grandin has opened myeyes to this tremendously over
the years reading her work,because not only is Temple
Grandin an animal scientist, butshe's also an individual, as
most of your listeners wouldknow, who herself is autistic
and has been highly successfulin being able to help shed light

(35:59):
on the animal experience basedon her experience being on the
spectrum.
She's talked about how, forinstance, like we've looked at
stereotypical behavior orcompulsive behavior as something
to be modified right, so it'sbad and she talks about the fact
that, while it's evidence ofsome type of potential welfare

(36:20):
problem, in many cases it canalso be highly adaptive to those
individuals when they don'thave other mechanisms in order
to meet those welfare needs.
Think, instead of pathology,drugs and a behavior plan.
I think it's important that westep back and we're curious and

(36:40):
we say okay, so this isdefinitely representation of a
lower diversity score, becausewe're getting excessive behavior
in this one category, whetherthat's spinning tail, chasing,
pacing, self injurious behaviors, whatever that behavior may be
and we want to think about whatis that unmet need, or series of
unmet needs, based on what wetalked about at the beginning of
the podcast here about, likethe five domains and all of that

(37:02):
and kind of try to break thatdown, do things like try to
provide for many moreopportunities to get that
overlap between that dog'sgenetics and their environment
by taking them to places likethose 15 acres right?
And I do recognize, by the way,that like cause.
People bring this to myattention a lot like hey, you
live in New York city, you don'thave sniff spots around you.
I mean, I had to drive an houryesterday and so I'm just going

(37:23):
to say I think we can do betteron doing the harder things and
getting creative about it.
I also think we could reinventour business models so that in
our facilities we have thisstuff built in right, so we have
like this kind of a space onour property for our facility as
opposed to just a warehousebuilding.
But so I think that when we seethose behaviors again and we

(37:45):
treat in the best way wepossibly can, as much as we can
at home to minimize it, sogiving as many affordances as we
can for that diversity ofbehavior in the home environment
or the yard environment, butthen again rethinking as
professionals what we can forthat diversity of behavior in
the home environment or the yardenvironment, but then again
rethinking as professionals whatwe can do in our communities or
with our businesses in order todeliver the experience that,
frankly, most people are toobusy, too overwhelmed to provide

(38:09):
on a reliable basis.
And I've talked to a couplestudents lately that have
shifted their entire businessmodels in this direction and
they love it because they have amuch smaller number of highly
committed clients who areinvested in their dog having
this experience and, frankly,they're relieved from having to

(38:30):
be able to provide for itthemselves.
We also have talked about thatthere's going to be some social
obstacles here, because thatwould be a higher cost service
that we would be providing.
If we're taking a dog for sixor eight hours a day or
something like that, right to gofulfill their needs for
somebody, we may be able to makethe money we need to stay
afloat with a much smallernumber of clients.
But what about the clientswhere?

(38:51):
That's a problem?
So I think it's important,while we're thinking about this,
that we build in things likescholarship slots for our
programs, you know, so thatpeople have access to getting
their dogs, even if they havelower income, into these kinds
of new service models ofenriched to where we're going in

(39:18):
and we're really designingaffordances in the smaller sniff
spots particularly that givemany more possibilities than
just, like you know, half anacre of grass that other dogs
have peed on you know, for dogsto be engaging in those
behaviors and ideally targetingthose kinds of experiences we're
giving based on thestereotypical behavior we're
seeing.
So if we're getting, you know, astereotypical behavior that's

(39:38):
rooted in foraging, I'd say thatdog needs more foraging
experience, right?
If we're getting a stereotypicalbehavior, say golden retrievers
and late granulomas, thingslike that, so we've got some
self injurious behavior thatvery well could have some kind
of an underlying social unmetneed in there, because we know
that goes back years ago to thebeginning of my degree that I
did in college.
A woman named Linda Nebbies wasinvolved in animal therapy

(40:02):
research and science and startedpublishing this stuff decades
ago about how when we nurtureanother it's the same event in
our body physiologically as whenwe ourselves are being nurtured
.
So you take a breed like agolden retriever that's
developed for such highsociability with other people
and animals, right, and thosedogs, when left alone for our
normal work days, are going tobe at a higher risk of feeling

(40:24):
that social deficit because ofthat historical selective
pressure for sociability.
And so the lit granulomabehavior can be something that
self-injurious behavior developsbecause they're trying to meet
their own needs and feelconnected and nurtured.
So for that dog we may designvery different kinds of
experiences, socially kind ofdirected.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, that's super interesting to think about it
that way.
Okay, I want to expand on thisbut I'm going to come back to it
because I want to talk aboutit's a podcast on aggression.
So when we think aboutaggressive behaviors, and when
I'm saying the barking, lurching, growling, biting behaviors,
but the function of increasingdistance from or eliminating a

(41:04):
threatening stimulus orprotecting a resource, kind of
those type of aggressivebehaviors, would you say that
they're always a function ofsomething missing in those
domains or something related tothe domains with the welfare
concern or not always Aggressionin general?
Yeah, just aggressive behaviors.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah, not always.
Okay, yeah, not always yeah,because a lot of it is our poor
dogs.
So artificial selection, right,our breeding.
Let me just contextualize thisfor a second.
So in nature, nature selectsfor what works and is adaptive
in the best interest of theorganism period and the species
period and the ecosystem period,but it's in the best interest

(41:45):
of the players, okay.
So when something's not workingit gets selected against and it
won't continue to show up withany kind of prevalence, you know
.
Up with any kind of prevalence,you know, in that population.
So enter humans.
Humans selected for what wewanted, whether or not it was in
the best interest of the dogs.
So we selected for behaviorsthat were functional, for things

(42:07):
that would help our survivaland, frankly, we selected
against a lot of the rules ofthumb for, like adaptability in
animals, economy of behavior,for instance, self-preservation.
There's some breeds thatexemplify a complete
contradiction to both of thoserules in nature, you know, you
take something like a terrierthat'll go down into a badger

(42:27):
hole and risk life and limb withcomplete perseverance, you know
, because that's what we'veselected them to do, risking all
self-preservation, notregarding any economy of
behavior, right, and we can seethat this is part of the
additional complexity with ourdogs is that we've bred them for
all these behaviors thatthey've now inherited in the

(42:50):
case of many of these specificspecialized working types of
dogs, and now we don't want thebehaviors, but the dogs have
inherited them, which, if wewere looking at other captive
species of animals, that wouldmean that we would want to
provide an outlet of expressionfor that natural behavior and

(43:10):
the animal's highly motivated toperform it, which means by
definition in animal welfarescience we're supposed to
provide for an outlet forexpression of that behavior if
they are highly motivated toperform it.
But it's much more complicatedwith pet dogs because a lot of
the behaviors they're highlymotivated to perform are not in
their own interest to beengaging in at that level and I

(43:33):
had a good conversation withSarah Strumming recently on her
podcast about this, because wewere talking about how her
experience everyone knows thatshe's an expert with herding
dogs and particularly bordercollies she's really asserting
they need to have opportunities,yes, to do this high intensity
partnership work with theirhuman handlers, but, frankly,
herding dogs for their ownmental health need to dog more

(43:55):
and herding dog less, because itis we've created dopamine
junkies.
We've created dogs that exhibitcertain quote unquote aggressive
behaviors.
At least that's how weexperience it.
Maybe that's a herding dogtrying to control the movements
in their environment, which thenincludes, like ankle biting,
biting bikers, joggers, peopleon skateboards, etc.
It's definitely quote unquoteaggression, but it's really a

(44:18):
misplaced behavior that weselected into that type of dog.
Then again, you're getting thatdysfunction between the animal
as an organism as a key to thelock of their environment, and
so that's why we're getting thisfriction.
And so in those cases like Ithink, we really have to get
very discerning, recognizingdogs are presenting a problem

(44:42):
for this well-established modelbecause of the level of
artificial selection involved inall of these different
phenotypes, and so we're goingto have to be able to split
hairs and use critical thinkingand say you know, so they may be
aggressive just because we'vebred them to be aggressive in
that capacity, and it's maybejust showing up in a way we now
find unacceptable in the modernage.

(45:03):
How can we provide for somesufficient version of expression
for what we bred that animalfor, so that they feel like they
are fulfilling some sense ofpurpose?
If we've bred them to fulfill asense of purpose, some of these
dogs really desperately need it.
So what can that look like?
In a way that's safe,acceptable, appropriate and not

(45:25):
actually increasing mentalhealth problems for the dogs by
making them more neurotic andintense?
It's messy.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Hmm, I have a lot of thoughts in my head and I'm
trying to distill them down intothe next question, but you know
it has me thinking.
So we've talked a lot, you andI, in the past, about we're
seeing all of these symptomssort of rooted in all of this,
that we've been talking aboutmeeting the needs, what we've
selected for the legs model, andyou think about the human

(45:58):
healthcare industry, right, sowe see it revolves around
treating the symptoms.
It's not that we don't look atthe causes, but much of the
problems we face are because ofsome things we do as humans.
Just like with the dogs that areliving with us, that are
causing these issues, and we'realways just looking at treating
the symptoms.
Especially the dog trainingindustry is very much a symptom
treatment type of approach andit makes me think about my son.

(46:21):
You know so my son is, he's 18.
Some of the listeners might notknow I have two boys, but I
have one, my younger one's 18.
And he is really super intobeing healthy, which is not
something that was common when Iwas growing up.
I know that I mean we maybe didsome sports worked out, we knew
a little bit about health,avoid smoking, that kind of
stuff.
But I mean this youngergeneration and I see it with

(46:44):
some of his friends too they'revery much into being very
healthy to avoid the stuff thatthey're seeing.
you know some of the things thatthey know they can avoid health
issues from.
Obviously, smoking, drinking,those are the big ones.
But you know he watches what heeats, he's very health
conscious, he exercises, but notto the point of obsession.
They also recognize that thesethings can become obsessive,

(47:07):
especially in a youngergeneration.
It's fascinating to me just howknowledgeable the youth are
from talking with each other,absorbing some things on social
media and also having to learnhow to filter what's you know
possibly damaging and what'spositive information as well.
So it just has me thinking aboutthe dog training industry,
think about dogs in general andeverything we've been focusing

(47:27):
on and something like you hadmentioned.
Yeah, let's get a place wheredogs can exhibit these natural
behaviors, so sniff spots andthings like that.
But it also has me allwondering that's somewhat of a
treatment plan for a much morebigger issue, a systemic issue
in how we own dogs.
So long-winded question there,right?

(47:50):
Yeah, just thinking off the topof my head here.
But what do we need to bethinking about as humans in
general, with how we're bringingdogs into this world and how we
can work on tackling some ofthese behavior issues?

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Yeah, I love that and it kind of brings it back full
circle to where I'm really.
I've got my sights set in thelong term.
So the One Health and OneWelfare models which have been
introduced in recent years andare increasingly getting more
attention on an internationalscale recognize the intrinsic
connection between all of ourspecies.
So when one of us isn't doingso well and we're closely

(48:25):
connected to other species, thenit's going to bleed over and
affect others, right, we're notin silos.
And so, in light of all of that, it ties in so much with,
frankly, the cornerstone of myoriginal research, starting from
when I was in college and thebooks I was reading when I
started to work on the writingof my own book, meet your Dog,

(48:45):
looking at my son who at thetime had entered the school
system and some of what seemedlike the ridiculous expectations
and the poor environmentalaffordances for a five-year-old
boy who was entering all ofthose new constraints, and how
much he wasn't afforded and howthat quote showed up as behavior
problems, right.
And so I've been thinking aboutand talking about this in this

(49:07):
direction for a long time, with,frankly, us looking at dogs as
kind of a canary in the coalmine, like they're a bit of an
indicator species for us, if wereally want to look at it that
way, because they are living inour lives, in our homes and our
environments with us and whenthey are struggling as much as
they're struggling, we and thosearound us probably are having a

(49:28):
little bit of a hard time too.
And with all of the emergingdata about the deteriorating
mental health of our population,particularly our children, our
youth, we really need to look atwhat has gotten away from us in
the modern world in terms ofthe lives we're living, because
a lot of our ailments are theresult of us not having our five

(49:49):
domains met, particularly againin that fourth domain with
natural living, and people likeGabor Mate or Richard Louv have
been talking about this for sometime, you know, talking about
nature deficit disorder, naturetherapy for his treatments for
depression and anxiety, thingslike that.
We don't realize, or maybe wedon't remember, that our entire

(50:10):
nervous systems are perceptionsof the signals in the
environment.
The behavioral responses we havefor foraging, hazard avoidance,
reproductive and social arestifled and inhibited and unmet
to the point that it causes allkinds of dysfunction for us.
Great example is over shopping,overspending, overeating, over

(50:30):
drinking all of that right.
So what that is is that is agreat example of the dysfunction
between our design as a speciesand an organism in the
environment we're in now.
The way we've been designed ashunters and gatherers
historically was made for aworld that wasn't a world of
plenty, and I can order it onGrubhub or Amazon or you know,
like DoorDash, and I can have mea biscuit from Bojangles in

(50:53):
five minutes at the front door.
And so we're not engaging inthe behaviors that are
respectively involved for whatwas that foraging?
And we're not also doing thedynamic things that would be
involved as a social species.
So we would have been doingthat socially with others.
We would have been, as part ofthat suite of foraging behavior,
processing those resources thatwe acquired together and making

(51:16):
things, mending things you knowlike.
So all of these things that arekind of under the hood of who we
are.
We're alone in our houses,sedentary, sterile environments,
on these computers, not doingthose things, and then we wonder
why we feel so bad.
You know, because we're tryingto get our own modified versions
frankly, probably stereotypiesin a lot of senses, right, doom

(51:39):
scrolling or whatever wherewe're like we're getting our
dopamine in different ways, likea dog might be adapting by
getting their dopamine metthrough engaging in a
stereotypical behavior, but thebig picture writing on the wall
is that we have a world that isincreasingly developing in a
direction that we are not andour dogs are not well adapted to
.
And so, in the case of humans,we know that the environmental

(52:03):
evolution has outpaced ourbiological evolution, and so we
can either slow down the pace ofthe development and hope that
our biology can catch up alittle bit, but there's all
kinds of other obstacles to ourown natural selection for a
variety of reasons.
With modern medicine, etc.
With our dogs, frankly, we havean opportunity to use the same

(52:25):
thing that caused the problem tohelp them out of the problem
through artificial selection fordogs that are coping well in
the modern world.
So people like Brian Hare andVanessa Woods his wife they're
working at the Duke CanineCognition Center.
They've been working with theservice dog assistance dog
community in their breedingprograms.
There's been a few papersrecently, or articles I should

(52:46):
say, that have been publishedabout their opinion that we
potentially could be in a newwave of dog evolution based on
breeding for the world.
We have, based on these servicedog models and having just
presented at the Assistance DogsInternational Conference
looking at the dogs that aredeveloped for that particular
work, they have to be selectingthese dogs to be able to cope
better in modern conditions,because otherwise they won't be

(53:08):
successful as service dogs, andso that provides a new
opportunity for us to havediscussions on the whole suite
of solutions of breeding for theworld we have, so that we don't
have this dysfunction, andthat's a huge part of the
conversation we need to behaving.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Well, let's have more of that conversation.
Where do we go from here then,with a perfect world that you
could design for how we bringdogs into our lives?
Because there's lots of voicesin this equation.
Right now we have, you know,the shelters overfilling, puppy
mills, still existing backyardstuff going on.
I mean, there's a lot of voicesin this and there's a lot of

(53:44):
money.
Frankly, yeah.
So in a perfect world, what isit going to look like?
So we can say Mike and Kim aregoing to be out of jobs because
we don't have problem behaviorsanymore?

Speaker 2 (53:53):
Right, yeah, as much as it's unpopular.
I think that we have to playthe long game on breeding for
the world that we have now andwill have in five years, 10
years, starting now with thegene pool, being very
intentional about selecting dogs, even if they're not part of
assistance dog programs.
Sue Sternberg has been sayingthis for years and I couldn't

(54:15):
agree with her more the dogsthat are coping really well.
If we have the opportunity tokeep those genes in the gene
pool, we should.
We need projects like whatJessica Heckman is doing with
the Functional Dog Collaborativeand Carolyn Kelly is doing with
the Companion Dog Project, thatare developing dogs for the
particular context that we arepreparing to provide for them

(54:35):
and doing that with the dog'sinterest in mind.
Right, so that we're notaccidentally Frankensteining
more dogs that are going to bemaladaptive because we're
experimenting with dangeroussuites of genes that are already
a little neurotic.
Right, like I would personallylike to see the values of our
selection for the dogs thatwe're breeding being things like
resilience at the top of thelist, right, dogs that just are

(54:58):
highly sociable, really lowresource guarding, like Sue
always says, high level ofresiliency and low level of
sensitivity and all of thesemodern environmental conditions,
things like that, and I knowthat that's very disrupting to
the narrative that we have aboutadopt, don't shop, which it's
not that I disagree with that,but the reality is breeders are

(55:20):
breeding, breeders are breeding.
Breeders are gonna keepbreeding.
So we need to inform whatthey're breeding rather than say
never get a dog from a breeder,it's gonna happen.

(55:58):
No-transcript homes, because therestrictions necessary to
manage them with some of thesevery severe and dangerous
behavior problems are going tobe counterproductive to our aims
of providing that kind ofagency, again, something like
sniff spots.
Really well-designed sniff spots, however, can be a really

(56:19):
important intervention for thosedogs, because if we've got
sniff spots, they don't have togo to the dog park, they can
have that private, secure areafor an hour and we can work that
into their regular provisions.
So we have to think about whatdo we have on the table in the
gene pool now and how can weaddress all of these different
sub pockets of needs for thosedogs and then keep dogs out of

(56:39):
shelters, hopefully by shiftingthis model towards treating the
disease, not the symptoms, right, because we have a cycle of
dogs coming into shelters andthen going back out and failing
in homes and coming back againbecause we're not giving people
the information they need on howto provide for the complete
welfare of those dogs.
So it's a complicated, there'slots of pieces but, like you

(57:03):
know, I think we have to addressit from a few different
directions.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
Yes, I 100% agree, and there's so many directions
we need to address it from.
And it has me thinking about,let's say again, in a perfect
world, we have, you know, theKim Brophy breeding program and
we have, like perfect genetics.
You know, in terms of behavior,we're looking for that,
breeding dogs that are justgoing to adapt really well to
our modern society, our highrise apartments in New York City

(57:29):
, that kind of thing.
But thinking through thislong-term, let's say we get that
goal.
We have all these beautifuldogs, but, ethically speaking,
where are we going with thiswhen we think about for the
thousands and thousands of yearsdogs have been with us and the
amount of freedom they've hadand what they've been able to
experience?
Yes, we could breed for a dogthat can live in an apartment in

(57:50):
New York City, get very littlesunlight, hang out with somebody
while they're gaming all dayand seem to be okay.
But, you know, is that what wereally want to envision for dogs
?

Speaker 2 (57:59):
You know I'm immediately thinking about like
Orwell and 1984 and like BraveNew World.
I mean like I don't like it.
You know, if I'm totally honestwith you, I don't like it and I
think at some point we have tostop and say are we just doing
this for us and have we robbedthis animal of their integrity

(58:20):
accidentally?
Because even through thatartificial selection we're
hijacking the biology of theanimal.
We are right, we're creatingwhat we want again, and if we do
that with the thought of doingit for their welfare, I think
that's an improvement from wherewe are right now.
But traveling to these othercountries, as I know you do as

(58:43):
well, and seeing dogs in theirnatural environments and seeing
how incredibly adaptive andfunctional it is and what a
wonderful life it is for ananimal to just fill their
ecological niche In the simplestof ways, it actually should be
a birthright right.
That's literally how our planetworks is.
Organisms are born as theindividual genotype, then

(59:06):
complicated by the phenotypeinteracting with their
experience in the environment asan individual.
But they're born into a nichein which they fit most of the
time, and if they're not, theywon't survive.
And then we've solved thatproblem in that manner.
And so when I think of it thatway and I'm just observing
nature and I'm realizing thatwe've got a structure, an

(59:28):
orchestra of elements, the waythat nature is supposed to work,
and we have offended it, wehave disrupted it.
We are now living in a newepoch called the Anthropocene,
where it is literally defined bythe human effect on the planet
and, sadly, I don't think it'sgoing to stop right.

(59:49):
This is something that, in themiddle of the night, I wake up
and I wonder whether all of mywork is for naught and
everything we're doing is fornaught, because we just continue
in this direction, blind, itseems, and uncaring to the
consequences.
As humans, we just can't stopourselves with doing more and
modifying more and building moreand just erasing nature's

(01:00:12):
systems.
And so at a certain point, Ithink what's going to happen
because nature has checks andbalances is we're just going to
get bopped off and we'll find wedon't get to play in the
sandbox anymore.
And then it'll start over insome new epoch that we can't
even fathom.
This is all very sad to thinkabout, but I think the reality
of the situation is that's wherewe're at.
That's the moment in historyguys Like and it's not

(01:00:32):
conspiracy theorists to justcall a spade a spade.
At this point, we're in trouble, and I think that's one of the
things that's so valuable aboutour dogs.
If there's a hope in hell of ussaving ourselves and our planet
, I think the dogs invite us toappreciate it, because they are
at our feet.
They're the bridge to thatnatural world when we forget it

(01:00:55):
exists.
They're an animal in our livingroom inviting us back out into
nature to remember our ownbirthright, just whether or not
we take them up on it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
I think that's an amazing way to wrap up the show.
I do want to give the listenersa chance, though, to hear what
you're up to next.
You are speaking at theAggression in Dogs Conference,
as well as a few otherconferences this year, so tell
people where they can find youand what you're up to next.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Of course I'll be at Aggression in Dogs and I'll also
be at APDT in November inRichmond and, for those folks
who are listening in Australia,I'll be virtually presenting at
the APDT Australia conference inOctober as well.
But I'm going to be continuingto collaborate with members of
our community.
I still invite people to takethe comprehensive legs course,

(01:01:44):
because if you don't understandthe legs of the dogs you're
working with and are able tokind of acknowledge and
comprehend who they are and thediversity that we have in these
dogs and its modern populationright now, applying the five
domains model and measuring thatdiversity of behavior is going
to be much trickier to be ableto implement, and there's
amazing collaborations that arehappening within that as well as

(01:02:06):
throughout the industry.
I mean I'm just seeingwonderful new things developing
as we're shifting our focus andhaving a new paradigm, and so I
just would invite people tocontinue to show up, get
involved, take up your componentof what is a grassroots
movement that we all can beinvolved in, so they can check
us out at familydogmediationcomand see what we're up to as that

(01:02:27):
continues to be updated.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Amazing Kim.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show again.
It was a great conversation andI'm looking forward to seeing
you at the conference.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Yeah, thanks you too, Mike.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
It's always an absolute pleasure to chat with
Kim and explore how the legsmodel is transforming the way we
understand dog behavior andwelfare.
Kim's passion and clarity makeeven the most complex topics
feel approachable and deeplyrelevant to anyone living or
working with dogs.
And if you're ready to godeeper into understanding and

(01:03:01):
helping dogs with aggression,visit aggressivedogcom.
Whether you're a professionalor a dedicated dog guardian,
you'll find everything from theAggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive program of its
kind, to expert-led webinars,informative articles and the
Aggression and Dogs Conferencehappening from September 26th
through 28th 2025 in Charlotte,north Carolina, with both

(01:03:24):
in-person and virtual options.
And don't forget to check outour Help for Dogs with
Aggression bonus episodes, whichare solo shows where I walk you
through real world strategiesfor issues like resource
guarding, fear-based aggression,territorial behavior and more.
Just hit, subscribe or head tothe show notes for more info.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, my friends.