Laughter, Lessons, and Legends. A special episode with Patricia McConnell and Karen London

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I have a special surprise.
This week, in this mid-seasonbonus episode of the Bitey End
of the Dog, I had the privilegeof sitting down with two legends
in our field Dr PatriciaMcConnell and Dr Karen London.
We talked about what both newand seasoned trainers should
know about the profession of dogtraining, and they shared
invaluable insights from decadesof experience of dog training.

(00:26):
And they shared invaluableinsights from decades of
experience.
Dr McConnell is aworld-renowned applied animal
behaviorist and author of theOther End of the Leash, while Dr
London is a mythologist trainerand author of Treat Everyone
Like a Dog.
This episode is filled withwisdom, perspective and
practical guidance that everytrainer and every dog lover will
appreciate.
Hi everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.

(00:53):
I have two very special guestsfor this special episode.
This is an off-season episode,but when they reached out to me
I couldn't hesitate to do aspecial episode.
So welcome to the show DrPatricia McConnell and Dr Karen
London.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, thank you so much for having us, and we
really appreciate being put inoff-season.
It's a real treat.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
I sort of feel off-season most of my life, but
we are very grateful.
Thank you, michael.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Thank you, and this is going to be a focus that's
going to be around, hopefullysomething helpful for new
trainers coming in and wantingto learn more about the work we
do, as well as seasoned trainersand folks that have been in the
industry a long time hearingabout sort of the decades of
experience that both of you haveand how you started working

(01:42):
together and all of the nuancesthat this profession brings.
So first let's just dive intohow you guys met, because you
have.
I was looking actually at thebooks that you've authored
together and it's quite a fewmore than I realized, because I
have one of my.
Actually, one of the firstbooks I ever got was Feisty Fido
.
It's on my bookshelf.
That's why I was looking behindme.
It's still there, shaminglyright next to one of Cesar

(02:05):
Millan's books.
That's not on purpose, it's just.
That was the error at the time,and so actually thanks to that
book that was part of mycrossover journey, which I think
we've talked about in the past,but that was 2003 that one came
out Feisty Fido.
Is that correct?
It's?

Speaker 3 (02:18):
been a while, yeah, long time it time it has been a
while yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
So 22 years.
So tell me about how you guysmet and how you started working
together and authoring books,and how everything came about.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Well, Karen, do you mind if I just jump in quickly?

Speaker 2 (02:32):
No, go ahead, and I'll just feel free to interrupt
you whenever I want, becauseI'm like that and that's your
job in the best of all possibleways.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
So, just quickly, karen and I met at the
University of Wisconsin inMadison and she turned out to be
a teaching assistant for theclass I taught.
I taught a class called theBiology and Philosophy of
Human-Animal Relationships and Icalled her the radar of
teaching because she wasfabulous, she was phenomenal.

(03:02):
I mean I had this huge class,150 people and they wrote essay
exams.
I mean it was a really, reallyintensive teaching class and I
would meet with Karen and Iwould turn to her and I would
start to say, karen, it wouldreally help.
And she would say, yep, I'vedone that already.
She was amazing.

(03:23):
She was absolutely a phenomenalteaching assistant.
And then it ended up.
Karen, I'm going to leave it toyou to talk about how the fact
that you took a job in Wisconsinafter getting married on the
East.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Coast.
Yes, yes, it was a little crazy, but I do want to say something
about teaching in your class,which was so wonderful.
I really enjoyed it.
It was great, except forgrading all the essays, which
was important but noteverybody's favorite part.
I one time took like 50 essaysto a coffee shop and they swore
they gave me decaf and gave meregular and it was.
I have barely recovered andthat was like in 1994 and 1996.

(03:57):
But I remember that one timeyou said to me, oh, it'd be
really good to have some examquestions, and I think this is
when you started calling meradar, because I said, oh, I
wrote four or five multiplechoice questions after every
lecture, for each lecture, andso I remember you being very
happy.
I'm a little obsessive that way.
Well then I started, I think,helping out with classes, just

(04:18):
volunteering as a trainingassistant, because I became very
interested in the work that youwere doing with the business
Dog's Best Friend Training.
I remember one time I actuallytaught a class because no
trainer could substitute.
Somebody was sick and someonehad been in a car accident and I
think Pip was about to havepuppies or somebody and you
couldn't leave the house.
So I did that and then I movedto New Hampshire.
My husband started his PhD atDartmouth.

(04:39):
Then Tricia wanted somebody to.
She wanted to train somebody upto see her aggression cases
while she took her sabbatical towrite the other end of the
leash.
And so I was living in NewHampshire.
I actually went to Portland,oregon, to get married.
That's where I'm from, myfamily lived, and then I my
husband and I honeymooned inAlaska and then I flew back home

(05:00):
.
My husband flew to Louisianafor his fieldwork and moved to
Wisconsin I think three weeksafter I was married.
It was kind of funny.
People would sometimes say didyou live together before you
were married?
And I always said, oh, yeah,before, but not after, because
we were four years long distance, which was sort of amusing.
But yeah, it was just such anopportunity.
I mean, this is something Iwould say to anyone that's
interested in entering the fieldyou have to take an opportunity

(05:22):
when it comes, because they'renot.
It's not like dental schoolwhere you go and you have your
four years and then yourrotations or whatever.
I don't know dental schoolexactly, but it's not a very
specific path.
So when Tricia said she wantedto train me to do this, I sat in
on cases with her all of hercases for four months, about
half of her cases for the nextcouple of months and then
started seeing my own and I meanit was terrible to leave your
honeymoon and then no offenseTricia, but then to come

(05:44):
somewhere else, but it was worthit, yeah, so that's how I
started working for Tricia andthen we both have always had an
interest in writing and so itbecame natural to do.
I think we've done five bookstogether and I hope there'll be
a sixth, but we just haven't gotthere yet.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
That's amazing, yeah, and I think one of the things.
But besides, I mean everybodywas overwhelmed at Karen's
dedication of like I want to.
This is important to me.
I want to do this and you knowone thing I will say about this
field is sometimes that reallyhappens.
You know one of the challengesof being a professional dog
trainer.
You know who makes a livingfrom it, or an animal
behaviorist.
You know it's not like going todental school or medical school
, or you know an animalbehaviorist.
You know it's not like going todental school or medical school
, or you know a veterinaryschool.

(06:29):
You have to create your ownpathway and that's one of the
challenges.
And you know things like.
You know the conference, michael, that you and so many other
people are working on at 26 inChicago.
That's a great consortium of somany different organizations.
It's.
There's just still no path.
You know there's no like you dothis and then you do that, and
then you come out with that andthen you're ready, and so you
have to create your own path andit's wonderful because you end

(06:53):
up with these phenomenal,unexpected situations like me
and Karen becoming colleaguesand writing together and
becoming best friends.
But it's also challenging andpeople need to know that you
know if you want to really makea living at this and get really,
really serious although you cando it part time, very seriously
, don't get me wrong but it'snot always a easy path to take.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
You have to be very intentional both of you are part
of my path.
But imagine if I had takenother paths and because I wasn't
exposed to your books and yourwork and positive,
reinforcement-based methods it'sa question I have a lot Imagine
if I'd gone down a differentpath or learned from other
people.
You're right, there's no oneset way of doing it, so people

(07:38):
have journeys and sometimes thatpath or that ship's going to
steer itself in one directionand it can go all kinds of ways
in this industry.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
Michael, how did you end up being who you are?
How did you end up on this path?
I mean, you're so important inour field right now.
You've done so well.
I'm just so curious about yourstory.
I'm taking over the podcasthere.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
I feel like I need to get that printed on a T-shirt,
because that's such an honor tohear that from you.
It really is, I think, justhaving good mentors.
Then you have the other side,people that are open and willing

(08:25):
to share information, even whenthey see you doing things wrong
or that they might not agreewith.
They recognize that hey, here'sthis young kid, he wants to
learn about training and mightbe doing some of the things that
I don't agree with, so let'skind of try to gently steer him
in the right direction.
So I've had lots of greatpeople, I guess.
To answer your question, I givecredit to all the people that
helped me in my journey, allalong the way and still to this

(08:46):
day.
You know, even the people Icollaborate with.
They're all kind of wanting thesame thing.
We all want the best for dogsand their people.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
So yeah, and our journey is never over, right,
you know.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, yeah, so we have to keep at it, yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
You know, speaking of challenges, you're mentioning
challenges and one of the thingsthat can happen with
relationships in general, right,whether professional
relationships or our ownrelationships in our personal
lives.
But what's your secret?
So you two have been workingtogether, our colleagues, for
three decades now, close to that, or a little over that, and so
and here you are, both sittingon a podcast with me.

(09:22):
So what's been your secret?
What's kept you guys working soclosely together?

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Well, I'm going to rudely jump in because Karen is
probably the funniest personI've ever met and I'm really,
I'm absolutely serious aboutthat.
She's so quick-witted.
She's the person who alwayssays the thing you wish you'd
said but think of in the showerlater Maybe you know or never
would have thought of.

(09:47):
But I will admit, I love funny.
I do.
I just I love funny.
It's just a wonderful way toget through the world and to
learn things.
So when she's just delightfully, joyfully funny, she's smart as
a whip and she's a really good,nice person and we just we just
clicked so to me so easily,because who would not want to
work with somebody who's smartand funny and a really good

(10:08):
person?
I mean, what's wrong with thatequation, right?

Speaker 2 (10:11):
And this is why I have Tricia do all my PR.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
She's very good at it .
I will say that.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
I should say, we also don't.
You know, we also live farapart, we do.
Yeah, you know we also live farapart.
We do, yeah, so you know, butwe I mean we worked together in
the office for for several years, you know, and got along really
well, I, you know.
Sometimes, you know, it's sortof like.
I mean, it's not unlike othersocial species in which some
dogs get along great and otherdogs don't.

(10:39):
And you, you know, you can workwith things.
You can, you can decreaseaggression, you know.
I mean, I've I've had people inmy office who were just toxic.
We've all worked with peoplewho were toxic.
I think one of the things Iwould like people getting into
the business to know is howimportant it is I'm not saying
I'm an expert at it, but knowingwho is toxic, who is really

(11:01):
helping you, who gives you joy,who teaches you to learn more,
who pushes you to learn more,who is your back and who feels
like, oh, this is not quiteright.
And it takes a while to learnthat.
Don't you think I do, karen?
I didn't want to take over here.
You go, girl.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Oh no, it's fine.
Well, and thank you for all thekind words.
I really appreciate it so much.
And I have this little problemnow that you've said so many
things that I want to respond toand in my mind there never is a
non sequitur becauseeverything's related and I've
got like five things I want tosay.
But one of them I want to sayis that working with Trisha has
been so great because shetrained me.

(11:45):
I was working on my PhD,studying know canine aggression
cases and doing dog training, soit was quite a switch.
And there's the generosity withwhich she trained me and that
was in 1999 when I started withher and just continues to be a
source, like as I've written andas I've, you know, done some
little TV things and somepodcasts and just everything's
always such a like the bestcheerleader ever, which sounds
belittling.

(12:05):
I don't mean it that way.
I mean she just always is on myside and I think it's rare to
find someone that is so generouswith what they want to teach
you without ever resenting orfeeling funny about anything
that you might do.
That's successful, no matterhow much.
Obviously, trish is so muchbetter known in the field and a
larger figure so, but even so,people in high status.
I don't mean status in thefield and a larger figure, but
even so, people in high status,I don't mean status in the dog

(12:25):
way, god forbid, but just verywell known in the field.
Even people that come afterthem can be like they want to
help you up to an extent, butnot too much, and Trisha's not
like that, it's just completelygenerous.
So I appreciate that.
And then I mean we do seem tofind I mean it's something about
this work is that you have tohave a little bit of, I think,
of a sense of dark humorsometimes, because sometimes
it's very emotional or verydifficult.

(12:46):
And like I remember one of theearly cases I went on with
Tricia and I remember that wewere, we got there on time but
we would get chatting in the caron the way to house calls and
then miss our exit.
On the regular it was, it didnot happen just once and we went
to this house and it was a verydifficult it wasn't actually,
but it was a huge markingsituation, like four or five
cats, you know, vertical,spraying all kinds of things,
and we were literally like onour hands and knees like

(13:08):
sniffing it out.
You know, and I remember Trishhad said to me like you too can
get a PhD and sniff around onthe floor for the smell of urine
.
And I don't have a super strongnose, trish, I think your sense
of smell is much better.
So I was at one over and she'slike God, like you think, like

(13:29):
you know, like I almost killedher and I'm just you know, like
I think I sent this in a littlebit of cat pee here, so just
like kind of laughing about it.
And one time Trisha introducedme at a conference about play.
She spoke about play and then Idid a whole bunch of people did
it at a symposium and sheintroduced me with a picture of
me doing a play about to a dogand it was like a thousand
people in this room and thisgiant picture of me with my butt
up in the air.
And I've kind of sincecollected all the times as a
behaviorist that you have yourbutt up in the air, like when
you're playing, when you'resniffing cat pee, when you're

(13:50):
reaching for dog toys.
It's just kind of a thing.
So we'd like, in the midst ofall these sort of serious cases,
you kind of laugh about justsilly things.
I did have to live separatefrom my husband for four years,
but I still think most peoplewould envy it.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, I think humor and finding humor sometimes in
the work we do is so, soimportant to balance things out
really.
So tell us something thatyou've both encountered in that
regard Do you have any funnystories that have been memorable
to you?
But also balance out all thehard work we do, Because we can
talk about the difficult stuffin a moment, but can you think
of anything that pops out at you?

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Well, I can think of one.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
That's so us.
That's so us.
You go, karen, I know, get outof my mind, well, I was thinking
of one.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
This was something that happened to me and it's
only funny because there was noserious damage.
But I was fostering a puppy.
It was an English SpringerSpaniel and her name was who,
and she belonged to one of thetrainers at Dogs Best Friend.
His name was Michelle and shewas planning to keep this puppy.
She bred hunting Spaniels, butspaniels.
But she wanted it to go out forbasically a homestay so that it
had new experiences rather thanjust growing up at her kennel.

(15:06):
And the dog was not an easyhouse training case.
It would pee and poop in thecrate but wouldn't pee on a
leash.
So, and of course it wasFebruary in Wisconsin it was 20
below.
I'm outside at night for thatlast.
Everyone can relate to thiswhen you're out with a puppy and
you're like, for the love ofGod, will you just pee so we can
please go inside.
And I was dressed, wearingeverything I knew, everything I
own.
So you know, basically like alittle bowling ball and right as

(15:29):
who squatted to pee and it wasa big success because it had
taken kind of weeks to get thereright as she did that, I
slipped on the ice and gave her,like by accident, the leash
correction from hell and what Iremember about it was so
distinctly well, I wasn't thatworried about getting hurt
because I was wearing so muchclothing, but I remember
literally seeing my feetsilhouetted against the sky and

(15:51):
thinking, oh my God, when I hit,this is really going to hurt,
slam.
And it was awful, because thatreally was a terrible.
I mean, if I'd wanted I don'tuse punishment, but if I'd
wanted to punish this puppy forsquatting and peeing my timing
was, you know, french kiss, youknow perfect, and I just think
it's so ridiculous.
Like I'm a professional trainerand this is the kind of crap

(16:11):
that sometimes goes on.
I thought that was sort of youknow it's not one of my shining
moments and the puppy was notphysically injured and you know
there was some training setbacksbut we got there.
But I just think, like ifpeople could see me at home
actually trying to train a dogI'm really good most of the time
, but not today.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
And you fell and you were okay, because you're
dressed like the Michelin man.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, only bigger and more powerful.
Yeah, no, pretty much like that.
And I remember I came insideand I said to my husband I was
like whose idea was it to getthis puppy, which it obviously
had been mine Just because housetraining a puppy in Wisconsin,
who's really a difficult case insuch cold weather.
It was not a good time but allwas well.
The puppy did eventually gether house training and the guilt

(16:46):
that was probably in 19, ormaybe the year 2000.
I think I'm almost done withthe guilt over what I did to her
.
I felt terrible.
I slipped on the ice in case Ididn't say that.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, you did you did .

Speaker 3 (16:57):
I love that story, karen, but I have two, and one
is actually your story, exceptit's one of my absolute
favorites.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Oh, is this a tissue?
Yes, okay, yes, I could tellthat one.
Yes.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yes, it does.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
I know you love this one.
Can I tell that?

Speaker 3 (17:11):
one.
May I?
Oh sure, Do I have permission?
Yes, so I use this all the timebecause any trainer can use
this, because it's so perfect.
It was a really simple setup.
So perfect, it was a reallysimple setup.
So Karen is outside with a dognamed Bugsy, who was not always
the easiest dog to deal with.
They're outside in the country,in Wisconsin, there's no fences

(17:37):
.
Bugsy starts running away.
Karen has been working onrecalls, but Bugsy is not the
easiest dog to recall.
So Bugsy is running away.
Karen is like, oh wow, so shedoes a recall and maybe I get
this wrong.
But to her happy surprise,Bugsy comes running back and
then she's like oh no, here I amstanding in a field in the
middle of Wisconsin, I have notreats in my pocket Running away

(17:58):
from him he's not a GermanShepherd, right?
He's not going to be quite asreinforcing.
What am I going to do toreinforce him?
So she goes into her pocket andshe finds a used Kleenex that
she has used because this isWisconsin and your nose runs A
used Kleenex.
And she gives him the usedKleenex and he was just thrilled
with it.
And I have used that story overand over again because it's

(18:19):
just so important to be creative, so you know what is
reinforcement.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Well, the reason that I didn't have treats in my
pocket I just want to say isthat I went outside with Bugsy.
I was going to work on recallswith him, calling him off deer,
and I'd been doing it where Icalled him before he went, but I
was ready to do it when he'dalready started running.
But I went outside and I waslike, holy mother of God, it's
freezing.
So I had pockets laden withtreats, a stuffed Kong, all
kinds of stuff, and I threw thatjacket on the bed and grabbed a

(18:49):
warmer one and then went outand the Kleenex it was used.
Well, there were actually twoof them, but when I reached in
my pocket I found a Kleenex.
So it was freshly used becauseI blew my nose, gave it to him,
blew my nose and gave him thesecond one and it was amazing
because his recall got so muchbetter after that.
And I think it's because, youknow, normally I didn't let him
have tissues.
So I mean, thankfully my nosewas running because it was

(19:09):
Wisconsin.
But yeah, it's just crazy to mehow that obviously wasn't what
I had planned, but it actuallyturned out better than if I'd
done the toys and treats that Ihad planned because it was so
special, and I never, never,reinforced him with tissues
again.
It was a jackpot of quality,not of quantity, and I think it
really made a difference for himand I'll never forget the look
on his face.
And you know the kind of dogslike I know Trisha talked about

(19:31):
her dog, fudge, growing up andwondering what he was thinking.
My husband and I used to talkabout Bugsy and I say I wonder
what he's thinking.
My husband was like I know whathe's thinking.
He's thinking duh, because hewas not a super smart dog.
I mean everyone's like, oh myGod, my dog's so smart, like he
really wasn't.
But the look on his face, likethe sheer joy, like when I and
you know I haven't had this dogin a long time, I mean I think
it was 2004-ish when he died.

(19:52):
I still picture that look ofjoy on his face when he got to
eat these tissues.
Of course I'm there like dryheaving and gagging because it
was pretty disgusting.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Well listen, karen, if the training and writing
thing doesn't work out for you,you could always open your own
line of Karen's nose-trippingtreats or something.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah right, I know, I know, right, I know, I know.
Now I live in Arizona, so notas much nose-blowing.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
You know, the reason I tell that story so much is
that I think it's so importantwe can get so so stuck in a
routine.
You know we give them driedchicken.
We give them.
You know we play tug with them.
I was just reading abouthappiness in humans and about
how one of the things that helpspeople be happy is to do

(20:38):
something new and different.
And yesterday I got to dosomething new and different.
I went fishing for trout atDevil's Lake in Wisconsin.
You know, I don't have a boat.
I never get to do that and itwas so fun to do something
different.
So, thinking about with our dogs, you know, I think all of us as
trainers and behaviorists andowners, need to think about okay
, what can I do that my dogwould really love?

(21:00):
That is really really different.
So that's one of the reasons Ilove that story, besides the
fact that it's funny but, if Ican, I had another funny story.
That I also think leads tosomething we should all talk
about, which is humility, yes,which is you don't have to look
forward to dog training.
I mean anybody who's evertaught a class or worked
individually with a dog.

(21:20):
There are times we all know ifyou're just in a class, and
Karen and I have done a lot ofthat.
Michael, I don't know how muchyou've done that, but it's a
great way to make a fool ofyourself and to be really humble
Because, especially the firstnight of class, all the dogs and
all the people are distractedand can barely focus.
I remember thinking every singlefirst class I thought this is

(21:41):
never going to work.
And somewhere around class twoor three I literally was like oh
my God, this works.
I'm shocked, it's just amazing.
So my story of humility is Iactually wasn't teaching and
having a dog not doing what Iwanted it to do, which is going
to happen to everybody but I wasoutside in the parking lot

(22:05):
greeting people for a new puppyclass.
I had a Border Collie who waswonderful with puppies,
absolutely great with puppies,super socialized, really just
excellent with puppies.
He had boundaries but he'denforce them very appropriately.
So we're outside in the parkinglot, somebody comes up with a
puppy I have my border I thinkit was Cole Ham, luke beside me

(22:26):
and this woman comes up and saysoh, I'm so excited about puppy
class and we were chatting andwe both looked down at the same
time and Luke had his, liftedhis leg and was peeing on her
pants on her leg, on her leg,and I just looked at her and I
said and you too can have a dogwho's as well-trained as mine.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
if you come to my class, I mean, what else are you
going to say?
What else are you going to?

Speaker 3 (22:51):
say so, yeah.
So I mean, I'd love to talkabout the fact that you need to
be ready as a trainer for thingsnot to go well, you know, to
get stuck in a class or to bewith a client where you have
this expectation and it's notworking, and there's a moment of
like, what the?
You know, michael, that musthappen to you too.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
I think back to, actually, whenI did teach group classes.
I was teaching group classes atone of the facilities.
I was learning to be a dogtrainer, so I was very new and
green.

Speaker 3 (23:24):
It's a great entry, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Definitely definitely Because you will stay humble
and you learn humility.
Because it was kind of at ashelter.
It was like a double as ashelter where trainers could go
learn.
And we had our one demo dogright, this Malinois, this old
Malinois, mickey, and just aprobably 10-year-old, rock solid
, just well-trained dog, but notfor me, for some reason.
He's like I'm not going tolisten to you.

(23:46):
I'll listen to everybody else,because everybody took turns,
like sort of using him as thedemo dog and you teach like a
class of like six or eight otherhandlers, people coming in with
their dogs, and I was trying toteach just a basic stay and he
made me look like such a foolbecause he went and stayed.
He just kept getting up, goingoff and doing all his own thing.
So, yeah, that made me realizethat, hey, you're going to have

(24:08):
days where the dogs are going tocall you out and say, yeah, not
for you today.
The other people, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
I've so had that happen.
I remember this one incidentand I remember one of the other
trainers at Dog's Best Friendwas in the class, which made it
even more embarrassing.
But we were doing working onhaving dogs sit politely in
greetings and not jump up, and Iknow there's a lot of
discussion in dog trainingclasses about using like the
demo dog.
That's really good, but Ireally did and I still stand by
this, even though signs thatmakes things not go well.
Try to use everyone's dog as ademo dog at some point.

(24:37):
I just would always err in favorof making people feel
comfortable and having therelationship than like showing
off my dog training skills and,for whatever reason, I had used
every other dog except thisCommodore, which was a mistake,
and I swear I was just molestedby this dog.
It was just like all over me,it was up over my shoulder, it
was in my hair, like it was just.
It was like, if you want to see, like exactly what not to do
with a dog and keeping them fromjumping up.

(24:58):
This is what it looked like andyou know how they look so moppy
anyway.
It literally looked like it wasmopping the floor with me.
It was so incredibly awkwardand I was like, well, you know,
like some dogs take a lot oftime to do it, or not all dogs
have read the books, and it wasjust like such a poor choice on
my part.
But the owner was like, thankyou for using my dog.

(25:20):
He's like that we did.
And I don't know exactly whythis happened to me, but the
puppy had pooped and I hadstepped in it and I didn't
notice, and I'm walking all overthe floor or whatever.
I was like, oh, you know what?
I think somebody must havestepped.
Let's find that dog poop.
Someone must have stepped in it.
Could everyone just check thebottom of their shoes?
So I check my shoes and sureenough, you know it's in mine.
And I was like, oh, and I'mthinking like, oh, my gosh, it's

(25:41):
like ready to go to the nextsection.
And Julie Vanderloop, who is atrainer at Dogs Best Friend, was
like Karen, I'll just quick goclean that off in the bathroom
sink, and you know.
And then she wiped the floor.
It's like, oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
I mean she's in there taking you know.
Again, funny stories will comeup and I think it's very
important for trainers to thinkback to the fun moments or the
humorous moments and themistakes we make too, cause
we're all human.
So I kind of want to shift intothe challenges we face, but
then I also want to get into therewarding aspects of it,
because we talk a lot aboutchallenges and this, of course,
is an aggression podcast, sowe're talking about bite stories

(26:26):
and really difficult scenariosand the emotions involved.
But Trisha's got a story aboutteeth.
I think you had mentioned.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
Yeah, so yeah, when I first started early on, very,
very early on a long, long timeago, I started having nightmares
and my nightmare was lying onthe ground being attacked by
dogs who were biting at me.
Imagine, literally, you're onthe ground and there are like 10

(26:57):
huge dogs and all you can seeare huge white teeth biting at
you.
And I wake up terrified.
And that was not good, right, Ihad have PTSD from a variety of
things that happened to meearlier, and so this was like oh
, you know, the night terrorsare back.
But then so I'd go into theoffice and then dogs, would you

(27:22):
know, sometimes show their teethat me and I hear about all
these bite cases and I hearabout all these really serious
bites and I started thinkinglike, okay, these things are
related, these are related,these are related.
And then and I don't know howthis happened, but somehow I
managed to desensitize myself inthe dreams.
So, rather than them being realnight terrors, they gradually

(27:44):
became like oh yeah, it's dogsand teeth.
And I felt like somehow I wasinternally desensitizing myself
to seeing dogs show their teethat me, to being in a situation
in which dogs might bite me, andit correlated with me feeling
more and more comfortableworking with aggressive dogs.
I don't understand thepsychology of it.

(28:04):
I have no idea, neurologically,what really happened.
I've never heard of anybodyhaving nightmares that
desensitize them, but that'ssort of what happened.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
You know, it's interesting too, because we
don't talk about it in theaggression space, or working
with aggression is that's one ofthe aspects that we have to
kind of get used to, because andactually something's in my mind
where I think it was an articleone of you had written over the
years, but talking about howwe're sort of hardwired as
primates to be worried aboutthings with teeth, like it's
just actually unnatural not tobe somewhat cautious or

(28:37):
automatically get away fromsomething that's showing teeth
to you.
So and we don't talk about thatin the aggression space it's
going to be part of your work.
You're going to be experiencingdogs that show their teeth,
growl, lunge, bark, snarl, snapall those things.
And how do you prepare for that?
Right, yeah, we can't.
You know, desensitizingyourself in the dream is really
interesting.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
But that's something when you think about it, it's
something we have to do in thework we do.
So what are your thoughts there?
Well, tricia told me about thisteeth dreams very early on in
my interning with her, and so Iwas sort of waiting for my great
desensitization and fearfulnessand of that, and I mean
definitely, I'm afraid sometimes.
But what's interesting to me isthat two of the very early
cases that I saw with Tricia youknow it was just whatever was
on the schedule the days Istarted, but in the first week

(29:26):
one of them was this dog thathad bitten many, many people and
it wasn't comfortable onanybody but the owner Really,
really extreme.
And I remember sitting in therethe first day I think it was an
Australian Shepherd orAustralian Shepherd Cross and
you know hard cold eyes glaringat us.
You know hard cold eyes glaringat us.
You know Trish I could see,because you know she's not only
dealing with the client anddealing with the dog, dealing
interaction with the client andthe dog, and then she's got this
like green intern in there,like God forbid, I'm sure she's

(29:47):
like I hope she doesn't doanything that makes this any
worse.
And you know, and she trainedme not what to every other dog
I've ever seen.
And I remember that the dog hadbitten so much and the woman
was in such peril from likelawsuits or whatever that the

(30:08):
dog had bitten her reallyseverely and she had sewed it up
herself.
And she had never and she shehad not, she was not a medical
practitioner of any kind she hadjust like, got out her sewing
kit, like I might sew a buttonon, and sewed it on herself.
And I remember sitting in therethinking, wow, like what have I
got myself into here?
Like I left my husband in NewHampshire and I'm here and oh my
goodness.

(30:28):
But because those two cases wereso serious in the first week
that over the next six months ofcourse there were some other
serious cases, but you knowthere were a lot of like the
dogs growling at strangers orthe dogs lunging at other dogs
on works, and I don't mean tomake light of those.
Those are serious cases butthey aren't the kind that have
you lying in bed at night withyour covers up to your neck like
worried that the devil iscoming down your chimney with a
dog like that.
And so I feel like, becauseTricia was sort of my guardian

(30:50):
angel and she was in the officewith me with her cases for so
many months.
I don't think I experienced thesame kind of Like I felt so
well cared for and so safe andprotected that I just didn't
quite have that, although Istill occasionally am sitting in
a case and think like, wow,this is a pretty serious
situation.
We've got here Like again.
I mean here I've been doing itfor you know better part of 30
years and I still sometimes havelike, what have I got myself

(31:13):
into?
I still have that thoughtoccasionally and I'm not sure,
michael, if that's the questionyou were actually asking.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
I was just sort of addressing what we generally
talk about yeah, no, justopen-ended kind of question and
trying to just get your thoughtson that, because it's actually
a topic I haven't talked aboutmuch with anybody the fact that
we have to think about thingslike that.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
And Michael Kiernan and I saw and I know she still
sees a range of problems fromseparation anxiety you
specialize in aggression.
I'm really curious about yourpath in that and sort of what it
.
Separation anxiety youspecialize in aggression.
I'm really curious about yourpath in that and sort of what it
feels like.
And you know I basically, afterI don't know how long, a
certain amount of time, I got tothe point where I think is a

(31:51):
great place to be, which is likeanything a dog would do.
It was like oh, thank you forshowing me your teeth.
That's information you know.
Thank you for growling at me.
You know All of those thingswere like information for me and
I think that's a great place toget to, but I had to work
through.
I should just quickly sayparenthetically, the Karen Karen
worked with wasps reallyclosely.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
She's way braver than I am, so.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
I should just make that point.
So I worked to the point whereI was like thank you for
growling, thank you for showingme your teeth.
So what was your path like?
Because if you specificallywork with aggression, you are
putting yourself in danger.
And obviously we're smart, weknow how to set up situations,
we know to be proactive, we knowto make things safe, because
nobody wants a dog to bite forthe dog's sake, much less ours.

(32:36):
But I'm curious about your pathand all that and your
experience.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
You know it's interesting because I think
there's multiple motivations forme focusing on aggression.
You know I liked it.
I thought I kind of understoodit as best as I could back then
when I first started just doingaggression exclusively.
I like that when you focus onone thing, you just get better
at it, naturally right.
So that's your one thing thatyou do all the time and that's
kind of how I do things in life.
I would get reallyhyper-focused on something.
So I actually, when I startedwanting to do just aggression

(33:06):
cases, I went on Dogwise andbought every single book that
had the word aggression in thetitle or had to do with
aggression, and I just took thedeepest dive into learning about
it, just because you know Ireally liked it.
But the other aspect too, interms of staying safe and
getting used to the growly dogsor these dogs that you know,
there could be weeks that couldgo by and you can't pet a dog.

(33:29):
You know, and as trainers wewant to spend time with dogs, we
want to play with puppies atleast once in a while, but
there'd be sometimes weeks Iwould not be able to get next to
any of the dogs.
It'd be all like first time,stranger danger consoles and
those kinds of things get nextto any of the dogs would be all
like first time, stranger,danger consoles and those kind
of things.
But I realized that also when Iwas doing a lot of different
cases.
I'd see a puppy client in themorning and I'd see like a leash
pulling case in the afternoonand then I'd go to aggression

(33:50):
case.
That's a lot of gear shifting.
So you go from okay, I'm justbeing able to pet this puppy,
then you can kind of forgetsometimes.
So I for me, what worked for mewas just that if I stay with
one kind of just with aggression, I'm always prepared, I'm
always going in with the samemindset versus having to shift.
So that's another motivationover the years that caused me to
go just with aggression cases.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
So yeah, yeah, that's a really great point.
I didn't think about that kindof frame shift that you had to
make from a dog with separationanxiety to it's hard you know, I
mean, obviously there's a tonof different motivations for
aggression.
You know, aggression, right,she says with finger quotes, but
nonetheless, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
I think that's really interesting, the idea of
specializing, because one thingI really like is I like doing
different kinds of thingsbecause I feel like I love my
work.
I love it so much but it isemotionally draining and I feel
like I have to protect myemotional health.
I have to have, you know, loveand cheer and joy to give to my
you know friends and, of course,my husband and my kids and and

(34:49):
I I like the kind of theswitching of it and doing
different things.
But then I mean I'm, you know,I'm a trainer, I'm a behaviorist
, I so I teach at the university, I work a lot as a writer, I've
done some coaching.
I think I'm always been more ajack of all trades, master of
none.
I do consider myself anaggression.
Well, aggression and play wouldbe my two specialties, but it's

(35:09):
really interesting.
I really like the idea ofdifferent people being either
hyper-focused or more broadly.
We were talking earlier in thepodcast about how there's no
direct path to what we do.
One of the things I love aboutthat is there's so many
different perspectives thatpeople come with.
Some people come really throughlike training and people that
showed in 4-H as kids.
Trish and I both came throughresearch and ethology, and there

(35:30):
are people that come throughpsychology and I don't know.
I think it's kind ofinteresting how our field is so
naturally interdisciplinary, andI think interdisciplinary areas
is sort of where the magichappens.
But now my brain is troubledbecause I haven't considered
this, how the value ofspecializing is so like you save
all that energy of, like yousay, the gear shifting.
Oh, now I have something tothink about and it's going to
like next time I'm out running,I'm not going to be thinking

(35:51):
about my times, I'm going to bestuck here.
Trish and I and this is a jokethat we used to joke about a
long time ago because when I waslearning Spanish, I got the
words quesadilla, which is, youknow, tortilla and cheese or
like a cheese sandwich, andpesadilla, which is a nightmare,
mixed up.
And we had a little issue whenwe were writing one of our books
where we changed the order ofthe chapters, but there were
various references in there.

(36:11):
So then the whole thing had tobe reworked and I had always
joked about like quesadilla andpesadilla.
So I think Tricia was the onethat was like yeah, it's a total
cheese sandwich because it's,like you know, like quesadilla
and quesadilla.
So even now it's been a longtime since we've collaborated
writing a book, but wheneverwe'd have something bad happen,
like it would be like oh, we gota little issue, or like, is it
a total cheese sandwich?
Which I just think is funny,because when you spend a little

(36:32):
Wisconsin talking to you, Ithink, right, oh yeah, don't you
know for sure.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
So so we could go on all day long about the
challenges and the bitey dogsand the scary things, and we've
certainly done a lot of that inthe bitey end of the dog.
But you know, we should, Ithink, shift gears to the
rewards we get, the joy we get,the satisfaction we get in the
work we do, Because we sometimesforget that we forget that a

(37:05):
lot, actually, because of all ofthe challenges we face, it's
not an easy career sometimes tofollow.
So let's jump into that.
What you know, if you had atakeaway message about what you
really love about the work, whatsatisfied you, what's you know?
So, yeah, let's go, let's do it.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
You can't see me on the podcast, but I'm raising my
hand like a kid in the classroomlike oh, oh, oh Well.
What I love about it is that,well, there's two main things,
but I really love the connectionyou make with people because
it's a very intense situation.
It's different, like you know,teaching a puppy with no
behavior problems other thanjust puppy issues to like sit
and stay and come and, you know,go in their crate and making it

(37:44):
.
So people can, you know, go onvacation because somebody can
take care of their dog, or thatthey're.
They no longer have to walktheir dog at midnight or they're
no longer thinking of nothaving their dog.
So the way that people I mean Ilove to feel close to people I
just and I think, trisha, thisis something we share Like we're
not no one's going to ever callus aloof, right, I mean it's
just not our way.
And the closest that you gowith people when you really are

(38:06):
really deeply in their lives, inlike kind of a strangely
intimate situation with theirfears and worries and challenges
, and how life-changing it canbe for people and how validating
that is.
And I was just thinking I had aclient maybe.
I've been seeing them sincelast September actually, and

(38:27):
they have a very large dogthat's aggressive and it's a
young man who owns this dog andhis parents live in town and
they were saying like we'reafraid to leave town, what if
something happens to him?
Like who would let the dog out,like you know?
And he has a dangerous jobhimself and we've got to the
point where now I could go inand the dog might not be
thrilled to see me, but I couldsafely let this 200-pound dog
out of its crate into the yard.
You know, feed him, give himwater.

(38:47):
You know we're not going tosnuggle on the couch and we're
not going to probably play, butI could take him for a walk and
I could let him out in the yard.
I mean they were saying likethey feel now that they can
travel there, this retiredcouple.
They actually had sent me atext like thank you, this is
life changing for us.

(39:09):
And really what's life changingis somebody can go to their
son's house and safely let theirdog out, should that be
necessary.
And I mean I actually I don'tusually like dog sit, but
obviously if something happened,I'd be more than happy to do
this.
It's not part of my business,but the idea that we've gotten
to that point since September soyou know.
So that's the better part of ayear that it's taken to get here
, life-changing.
And people that have never hada dog with those challenges

(39:33):
can't imagine what it's like tobe like.
I'm the only person, and my momand dad, who could be around
this dog safely.
And now there's actually myhusband and me and both our kids
, because my kids are over 18now, so I no longer have to
worry about child protectiveservices both our kids, because
my kids are over 18 now, so I nolonger have to worry about
child protective services.
And I say, oh yeah, they helpedme with an aggressive dog
console.
The dog needed to get used tokids crawling or doing
handstands.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Now that they're adults it's better, so I just
love how gratifying it is andhow close it helps you feel with
people.
Yeah, yeah.
What about you, Tricia?
What's your takeaway?

Speaker 3 (39:57):
Oh yeah, I think you know all three of us and I think
so many people listening andhopefully people who are
listening who are thinking aboutgetting into the profession, so
many stories that are soheartwarming.
You know it's based on the factthat our emotional connection
with some animals dogsespecially, but also horses and

(40:17):
cats and you know our emotionalconnection is so profound.
We've all written about it andtalked about it.
It's so profoundly importantand, like Karen's case, is
trying to finding a way to helppeople either deal with a
profoundly distressing emotionalsituation or to alleviate

(40:39):
something that could be anemotional situation.
My story at the moment is I'mnot seeing clients but I'm still
really active and I have afriend who has severe allergies
and has to give up her dog andit's breaking her heart and I
don't say that lightly.
It is breaking her heart and Ihave been helping her through

(41:00):
the process of finding anotherhome, had a prospective family,
another dog, come to meet on myfarm to have the two dogs meet.
I've been there.
I've answered a billion emails.
I told her to call me at threein the morning.
She had to because I knew howhard this was and she's written
me.
I know she won't mind metalking about this.
She's emailed me I can't tellyou how many times like thank

(41:23):
you, thank you, thank you, thankyou.
I don't know how I would getthrough this without you, and
being able to be in a situationlike Michael, you are, karen,
you are, and I still am to someextent, of being able to help
people through these profoundly,potentially painful situations
is so gratifying.
It's so heartening and so worthall of the there's a lot of

(41:44):
garbage, but so worth it.
And relates to one of my, oneof the things, I think that is
hard for many of us in this, inthis profession, which is that
what we do is so important froma health standpoint, from a
safety standpoint, from anemotional health standpoint,
psychological standpoint.
I mean, we've all seen familiesthat are about to get divorced.

(42:07):
How many couples have you seenwho are about to get divorced?
Right, we're not therapists, weknow we're not, but we play
huge roles in trying to helpfamilies get out of really
profoundly difficult,life-changing situations, and so
being able to do that is soheartening.
One of the things I think peoplegetting in this field need to
know, however, is that eventhough companion animals like

(42:31):
dogs are so critical to theemotional health and the family
life of so many people, it isstill a profession that has very
little status associated withit.
Right, it's, oh, you're a dogtrainer.
Right, you know?
Even, oh, you're a PhD animalbehaviorist, I mean, you know.
And so one of my goals yearsago like in 1988, literally one

(42:55):
of my stated written goals wasto raise the profession of dog
training higher so that it hasmore respect and is more
professional.
And a lot of that has happened,which makes me just incredibly
happy.
You know, for people like you,michael, and so many other
people have done so much toraise this profession into

(43:16):
something that is science-basedand knowledgeable and thoughtful
and so very important.
So it's incredibly gratifying.
But do know that you're notgoing to be thought of as a
medical doctor or a plumber.
In some cases I got to say Iworship the ground.

(43:37):
Plumbers walk on.
I am the first to say I thinkthe trays are so critically
important, but when you do themout of the bed.
But you get my point, you knowyou get my point is that I see
being a professional dog traineror behaviorist as being a vital
role in the health of thecommunity and individual people.

(43:58):
You know, karen's point is soimportant is like if you don't
love people, do not get intothis field.
I've had people's point is soimportant is like if you don't
love people, do not get intothis field.
I've had people come up at theuniversity and say I love
animals so much, I just lovethem.
But you know, I don't reallylike people.
But I want to be a behavioristor a dog trainer.
I'm like, no, you don't.
No, you don't.
So I think you need to askyourself do I love working with

(44:21):
people?
Because that's who you're goingto be trading most of the time,
right?

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah text you probably would never really
click, but I always try tothink of it like no matter what,
and maybe it's nothing, I eventell, but no matter what, every
time you work with a clientyou're creating a story, and I
love stories and sometimesthey're ridiculous and sometimes
they're amusing, and sometimesthey're, like you know,
heartwarming and amusing andsometimes they're sad.
But I always think goingthrough life and viewing the

(44:56):
world as a story is an importantway that I sort of process how
emotional it is.
I mean, it's not just a funnystory like oh funny thing, blah,
blah, blah, but sometimes it's,you know, difficult.
And if I do have a difficultsituation I'm just like okay,
it's just another story.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So we've had lots of great tipsfor people coming into the
field and even season trainersthat have more takeaways from
this.
You know, between finding humorin the work we do, sometimes to
revisit that, to lift us up outof a slump, finding good
mentorship, as you two havefound, and good colleagues and
supportive networks is alsoreally important and remembering

(45:31):
what we love in the work we doright, remembering and having
gratitude for all the beautifulrelationships we can make with
clients and connections.
And so if you had one othermessage for new trainers so
let's say, somebody's new to thetraining industry, maybe a year
or two or something, andthey've been doing it and
they're getting into aggressioncases or something like that

(45:52):
what's the takeaway message forthem?

Speaker 2 (45:54):
if kind of rounding out everything we've been
talking about, I think that thebest thing, that I think this is
true for anyone at any stage oftheir career, but maybe even
especially for people that arejust on the newer end is learn
in all the ways you can Read,listen to podcasts, watch videos
, go to conferences.
If you're blessed to find amentor, take advantage of that.
So every single way that youcan learn.

(46:16):
We should all be doing that andI still, sometimes, when I
think about how long I've beendoing this, I'm sort of
surprised because I still justam so excited about how much
more there is for me to learn.
I, you know I'm always trying toread and listen.
I mean sometimes, you know, Imean honestly, when I had kids
under the age of two.
I don't think I learned asingle new thing in that time
because I had no time.
But you know, normally you'rejust always learning and, I
think, taking advantage of everyopportunity that you have and

(46:41):
if you know that you learnbetter some people are not,
maybe, readers but takeadvantage of every way that you
know you can learn.
Don't skip a single one,because there's just so much to
know, and that's probably truefor any field.
But the idea that and I think,tricia, you were the one that
said to me that medical peoplewill say there's a reason they
call it a practice like a dentalpractice, a medical practice.
We all a practice like amedical, a dental practice, a

(47:02):
medical practice.
You know, we're all.
We all have our own business,our own practice.
But you're still learning andif you stopped, it's really time
to get out.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question, michael.
I think, building on what Karensaid is one is um, it's just so
important to start at thebeginning.
You know, I mean I remember thefirst time Michael and I talked
, you started, you had mentioned, michael, that you sort of read
everything, and I rememberliterally thinking, my God, this

(47:28):
man has read everything.
It's just quoting everythingyou know, and all of us stand on
the shoulders of giants.
I mean, I learned so much.
You know, karen Pryor.
I mean I had lunch with IanDunbar and he rocked my world
and completely changed, you know, my understanding of what you
could expect, and I saw peoplewho trained the way I didn't
want to train.

(47:49):
So one, yeah, diving in to asmuch knowledge as you possibly
can and I think following thehistory of dog training is
actually really an interestingthing, really an interesting
thing.
But I think, along with justsoaking up as much knowledge in
so many different ways you know,books, videos, podcasts,
conferences, every way youpossibly can one of the things I

(48:11):
think that will help you get isan ability to align your
expectations, because I haveseen people who want to get into
the field who literally seem tothink that what we do, michael
and Karen and me and all of ourcolleagues is that basically we
spend our days running throughfields of daisies with puppies

(48:31):
Golden retriever puppies,usually right and that is not
our life.
It's incredibly enriching andimportant and valuable and
empowering.
And it's hard, you know.
I used to go home some nightsand just cry.
I just sit down and cry justbecause I just seen three

(48:52):
clients who were talking aboutgetting rid of their dog, or you
know, their dog just figuredtheir daughter's face, or you
know so, you know.
So I think aligningexpectations, all of the joys
and the humor and the downsides,I think are really, really
important for people, becausethen you can choose.
This is really what I want todo.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Yes, yeah, and I think this would be a good time
to make a note about perfection,because we see a lot of that,
especially with social media.
We're always just sharing ourbest work most of the time, and
so it can create this culture ofeverything's got to be perfect,
your timing's got to be perfectall the time and the client's
got to be perfect, and you can'tstep and poop and all these

(49:34):
things that can happen.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
Wait, let me write this new rule down can't step in
poop, and you know all thesethings that can wait let me
write this new rule down.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
So do you want to just speak about that for a
moment for the new trainers?
Because I think there's thisunrealistic expectation about
being perfect all the time, andnone of us are not even remotely
close, so yeah, I would.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
I would love to something that I decided.
It was in 2008.
There was a play symposium,trish and I were speaking atDT,
and I decided a couple monthsbefore I gave my talk, which was
about using play to treataggression, that I think it's so
important to when, especiallyif you talk about case studies,
to talk about case studies thatdidn't go right Not all of them,
I mean, no one wants to hear mego like, well, here are six

(50:09):
things I fouled up royally, butyou know, I mean I think I
talked about seven or eightcases that this is what I did
and this is how it went, and yay, you know, happy, happy.
And then I talked about onethat didn't go very well and the
reasons why and why it wasinstructive.
And ever since, whenever I'vetalked about case studies, I
always try to include thingsthat didn't go quite as planned.
There's some exceptions.
Like I know, I did a webinarfor you, michael, that was about

(50:31):
hopeless cases that turned outnot to be hopeless.
Well, that was the whole pointof it.

(50:51):
Like they all had to be happyendings.
That was the point of thewebinar.
But I think doing that's reallyimportant because I think,
especially with social media.
Seeing life as a highlight reelis a problem and I have to say I
am not at all a perfectionist.
I'm a very much a good enoughkind of person.
I take great pride in my workand I have high need a dog, that
is a therapy dog.
They need a dog where theirkid's friends can come over or
they could have a house guest or, you know, they can kennel
their dog or different things.
So I think the field is notnecessarily great for
perfectionists, but thereprobably are a lot in the field
and as a result, I think theysuffer a great deal.
I would say, if that you reallylove dogs and you're really

(51:13):
great with good enough, thenthis is a great job for you,
because that's how I am and Idon't mean to say my standards
are low, but perfection is justan absurd bar.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
Right, yeah, anytime you're dealing with something
with a brain, you can't haveperfection, right.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Dogs, people.
You'll be disappointed quicklyif that's the case.
So we've gotten a lot of toolsout of this or concepts that I
think people can take away inhelping them in their work,
especially newer trainers cominginto things to think about.
But one more thing for just toround out the topic here is how
do you both stay positive?
Because, especially inaggression work, there's so many

(51:51):
challenges, there's many downmoments.
You could have a couple weeksof just having a lot of cases
not going well or terribleoutcomes.
That's one of the mostsignificant struggles I see or
hear from trainers, especiallyworking a lot of aggression
cases is there's a lot ofcompassion, fatigue and burnout,
and I think it's important wetalk about.
You know, besides what we'vetalked about, you remember those

(52:13):
humorous moments, have goodcolleagues you can rely on to
talk to, good support.
But what about you too,individually, like if you were
to one or two things that popout at you for yourselves over
the years?
You know over the decades thatyou've learned.

Speaker 3 (52:27):
Yeah, I think it's so important to find you know it's
so personal.
You know each one of us needsto find you know the things that
feed us.
You know the things.
I think it's critical to getaway, I think it's critical to
take like a break.
I think everybody needs to knowtheir specific things.

(52:48):
I mean I, you know, I do yoga,nidra, which is a kind of a
meditation, body awareness,mindfulness kind of thing, and I
garden and I have dear friends.
I had lunches with girlfriendsand we don't talk about my
profession and I just had beenwatching episodes of Friends.
Remember that TV show, friends?
Right, I never watched it whenit was a big deal.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
And so, yeah, we watch Big Bang Theory.
I think everybody needs to findtheir own, very personal way of
feeding themselves, gettingaway, nurturing themselves,
because it really is easy toburn out in this.
Yes, really really easy, yes.
And I think it's critical to nottry.

(53:31):
You can't fix everything.
There are dogs that I mean Ithink the hardest for all of us
are there.
We all know, we all see dogswho if we took them, would be
okay.
Oh, we can't take them becausewe're full right and no
professional dog trainer isgoing to take them and it's not
going to end well for that,necessarily, you know it's just.
You just have to give up thatyou can't fix everything right.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
Yes, that makes sense , you guys, very important
advice, yes, yes.
What about you, Karen?
What keeps you positive?

Speaker 2 (54:02):
I mean I don't know that this is going to be very
helpful or instructive, but Ithink I just have really happy
brain chemicals.
As long as I can get my run inand keep those chemicals going
like I mean I can leave a very,very intense consult and you
know, I feel it deeply when I'min there.
But then as I walk to my carand, you know, go on my way, I'm
just I don't know if I'm like Ican connect and disconnect,

(54:26):
maybe more than as healthy.
I don't know how I am.
But enough about my therapysituation.
But no, I mean I just feel likeI just have a really naturally
happy brain chemicals and if Iget enough sleep and I can run,
those are the two that otherwiseI don't have happy brain
chemicals and I just I really Ilove the work.
I mean I really do.
It doesn't mean that everysingle consultation is like

(54:47):
uplifting and joyful and I wishI had a hundred more like them,
but I just really like it somuch and I'm, I guess,
obnoxiously happy, although I, Iguess, obnoxiously happy,
although I mean I was hearing ajoke about somebody who's like a
historian and someone talkingabout putting things in context
and people have been referringto her as their emotional
support historian, which I thinkis so funny, and I feel like
being able to talk to otherpeople who understand what we do

(55:07):
dog trainers and dog behaviors.
It's kind of unusual, like bothof you are.
You know, tricia has been for along time, but Mike, you're
just going to be joined in theclub.
You're my emotional support.
You know dog behaviorists andyou know dog trainers.
And I just think, talking toother people that do what you do
because it is hard for peopleto understand when they think,
as Trisha says, we're justrunning through a field of
daisies with puppies, that it'salso happy and joyful, like I do

(55:29):
feel happy and joyful about it.
But it is nice to talk topeople who that the seriousness
and the weightiness of it canresonate.
But I sometimes wonder likesometimes people say like if
you're not like upset andworried, you're not paying
attention, and I'm like I mustalways not.
I might not be paying attentionbecause I just generally say
happy and not upset.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
Well, I think there's a very important takeaway
message from what you both saidis that when especially new
trainers and myself guilty, 100%guilty of this is you get into
a business, you're running abusiness and that's you're like
all in, so you forget to takethe time to do all the things
you're talking about to gorunning, to go gardening.
That's so crucial and I findthat happening a lot because,

(56:09):
let's face it, aggression.
When people are taking anaggression case, sometimes
people get very busy very fastbecause everybody's desperate
for help.
So they're like, oh my gosh,this is great, my business is
doing well, I'm making all thismoney, but they forget to take
personal time.
And the next thing you know Ihear from them about a year or
two later Mike, I'm really burntout.
Well, you've got to make sureyou're taking care of yourself,
because from an ethicalstandpoint too, we have to show

(56:31):
up as the best version ofourselves for our clients, and
if we're not doing that, we'renot helping them and we're not
helping ourselves.
So, yeah, very good advice.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
And yeah, and you know, I just want to jump in and
credit Karen for something.
Karen, you taught me you werealways better at knowing your
limit and your boundaries.
So Karen would be like you know, somebody would call 5.30 and
say my dog's going to beeuthanized tomorrow.
Can I come over, you know?
Or can I come at 7 in themorning?

(57:00):
I know you're booked startingat 9 or 8.30, but can I come
over at 7 in the morning?
And Karen was way better than Iwas at saying like I'm full, I
can't do that.
And I was like oh, oh, oh, Ihave to help them and then would
get exhausted and overbooked,you know.

(57:21):
So one of the things Karenhelped me with is learn like I
can't, I just can't.
I can't do my job well and seeevery dog, every person every
time.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
You know I actually had written a note to myself.
I don't know if you can seethis.
I'd written well, I can't, butanyway I'd written boundaries.
I was going to mention thatwith Happy Brain Chemicals.
I'm so glad.
I think boundaries are reallyimportant and I think of it very
much like like I used to work,like in on Catalina Island and
worked as a lifeguard, and oneof the fundamental things is

(57:56):
don't become part like okay, butI have to get a drink of water
and sit down and use thebathroom before I nurse you.
It's like I got to take care ofme before I take care of you,
and that has since become verycommon in the world of.
You know, put on your oxygenmask first is the version of it,
although that's not the way Iknew it.
You know I was going to saysomething that when I worked for
Tricia you know I was doingclients full time then and also
doing one or two days oftraining classes but she always

(58:19):
encouraged me to schedule oneday a week.
I like to do Friday, but I doThursday where I didn't see
clients, and she taught methat's so critical to have a day
where you don't see clients,and not just on the weekend when
you're, you know, like doingfun things, but also like you're
on your grocery shopping andwhatever, and obviously
sometimes we'd put emergenciesin on that day, you know.
But to have a day and you knowyou'd catch up on your case
notes and you'd make phone callsand you know when we were

(58:40):
writing.
We do a lot of writing on thosedays.
And I mean, I remember one day,you know, we people always
offer people coffee and Iremember one day it was like a
Friday and I didn't have anyclients and I just went to go
wash the week's mugs and I waslike like there's nothing less
intense than just washing themugs compared to the aggression
cases to see all the you know,things have to get done and

(59:01):
Tricia was always.
This is only slightly related tothis, but one day Tricia was
doing all this photocopying andit was like and and and it just
the way things had happened inthe business.
You know, obviously that's notthe best use of the owner and
boss, or she's like, some daysI'm the one doing the
photocopying, like everybody'sgot to do it, and I just.
That's not related to anythingexcept in my mind, but just

(59:23):
different things, michael.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
what is what is your?
What is your takeaway?
What is the one thing you wantto say?

Speaker 1 (59:31):
To trainers or in terms of remaining positive.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
To trainers, yeah To trainers.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Yeah, I think now I have to think about this.
I'm on the spot.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Welcome to our world.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
Yeah, I think it's taking moments.
Give yourself some time tothink.
Because, in this hectic life welive with these little snippets
and these little dopamine fixeswe get from social media and
scrolling through things.
It doesn't give us time tothink really deeply.
Because that's what I actuallymiss about when I was driving to

(01:00:03):
so many consults.
I do my best thinking drivingOn the way home from a consult.
Sometimes it'd be like an houror hour and a half away.
You know I used to drive thesecrazy distances to see clients
and that I would do my bestthinking because then I would do
my best thinking, because thenyou can, I would process a lot
of what I did in the consult.
What did I say?
Could I change that a littledifferently?
Could I have done thatdifferently?
What are my future plans?
Like, I really did a lot ofthinking and we don't get that

(01:00:25):
time these days.
We don't have much time toreally just sit in our thoughts
as much as we used to, so maketime for that.
That's my advice to newtrainers is don't get caught up
too quickly because you it willcome fast and hard if you,
especially if you just get intoaggression cases.
No kidding, it's just you'regoing to be nonstop and going,
going, going and you're runninga business and you're learning
and you're doing all thesethings we've been recommending

(01:00:47):
throughout the podcast, but youneed to pause sometimes.
So, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Yeah, I think that's really smart.
I actually used to give and forclients very often not always,
but I would say okay, here are acouple things I want you to
take home right now.
We're going to work on thiswith your dog and I want you to
take that home and work on it.
I'm illustrating it, I'mtraining you to do it.
You do it in the office, butI'm going to think more about
your case and I'm going to comeup with a whole plan for you

(01:01:14):
after I've had a day or two tomow on it, because I'm a bit of
a mower, so you don't have tofix everything right away.
I think that's such animportant point, michael.
Yes, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
So let's take a couple minutes just to plug a
couple things.
Now that everybody's listenedto how amazing you two are and
all of your life experiences, wehave some additional life
experience information to shareand one of them is actually it's
called the art of the gracefulsave finding the right words to
ease awkward moments in dogtraining.
That webinar is coming up onoctober 9th, so probably about a

(01:01:47):
month or about, or a little bitmore than a month, from when
this podcast episode will bereleased and that can be found
on aggressivedogcom.
Karen's going to be talkingabout all of the witty things
because obviously we've heardhow witty Karen can be during
this episode All the wittythings that we can do during a
console to help ease thoseawkward moments, like somebody

(01:02:07):
peeing on your pants or a dogpeeing on your pants, I should
say.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
Not someone.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
And both of you have books coming out as well.
So, karen, do you want to talkabout what you have coming?

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
Yes, and I also want to say related to the art of the
graceful save.
I've often talked about thingsthat you find yourself saying in
consults just to ease theawkwardness or make people feel
better so you can move forward,and I've always called them just
spiels and phrases.
And then Mike comes along andbeautifully names it the art of
the graceful save.
It's such an upgrade at the artof the graceful save.
It's such an upgrade.
So I appreciate that that wasyour day.
But I have a new book comingout.

(01:02:42):
It's a collection of 50 columnsthat I wrote.
I write a column called theLondon Zoo, which is about my
name not the actual London Zooin the, my local paper, and it's
about all kinds of animals.
But 50 of the columns wereabout dogs and I put them
together in a book called myDog's Mystery Adventure and
other stories from a caninebehaviorist and dog trainer.
And, if you'll indulge me, Iwould like to read the
dedication, which is to PatriciaB McConnell, phd, who changed

(01:03:09):
my life when she began teachingme about dogs in 1997 and
continues to be my mentor evennow.
Her wisdom and humor are giftsI can never repay.
So that's my dedication for mynew book.
So that's the most importantpage.
So if you don't read it, thebook, at least open it up
sometime and read the dedication.
I love it, I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Well, thank God, all the money I sent to Karen paid
off.
That's all I can say.
Karen, that's insanely sweetand I can you know if my husband
could attest?
Like you know, sometimes I'mjust a stupid idiot.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Your husband's free to think that, but he's wrong,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
That's very kind of you Graceful save.
So, Karen, that book is not outyet, right?

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
Oh, correct, it's not out.
I just have proofed the copyand it's sent to my editor and
hopefully will be out sometimethis fall.
But along with mynon-perfectionist tendencies are
like if I don't have a specificdeadline, then it's like soon
enough, good enough.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
It all is all very on brand for me.
Okay, well, we'll keep an eyeout for that, and Trisha also
has a book coming out on a date.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
I do.
I'm looking forward to Karen'sbook.
I'm looking forward to yourpodcast, karen, with Michael.
I'm looking forward to thatconference, that kick-ass
conference in Chicago in 26,michael, that you're working on.
But I do.
I have a complete reboot for me.
I wrote a novel, I wrote amystery novel.
I started writing fiction yearsago.
It's really fun.

(01:04:29):
It's really hard.
Yes, there are dogs.
It's yeah, it's realdog-oriented.
And I will tell people.
It's called Away to Me.
Away to Me is the cue ashepherd gives to a dog to run
counterclockwise around thesheep.
But it's also a bit of metaphorfor the protagonist, maddie
McGowan, who pushes people awaybut really wants them to come in

(01:04:51):
closer.
So it is available now, just asof a couple of days ago, for
pre-order.
Its launch date is February24th to 26th, but you can
pre-order or order it onBookshop Barnes, noble and
Amazon.
Yeah, the one thing that I haveto say to this particular group

(01:05:14):
is that, of course, no dogs diein this book.
I will tell you there are dogsthat are in a certain amount of
danger, but of course and don'ttell my editor, I said this no
dogs will die in the making ofthis book, I promise you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
And a lot of people are thanking you as they listen.
That's a big question.
I should tell you that peopledo?

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
People do, but dogs don't, because I'm not an idiot.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
Amazing, and I'll be sure to link how to pre-order
those books in the show notes.
So if you're interested, go tothe show notes for this podcast
and you'll see those links.
Dr Carol Lunden, dr PatriciaMcConnell, thank you so much for
coming on.
It's always a pleasure chattingwith you both and I'm sure I
will see you both soon in person.
I know I will see at least oneof you in person soon.

(01:06:03):
So thank you so much and I hopeto see you again.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
Thank you so much, Michael.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Thank you so much for having us.
It's always nice to talk to youboth.
Great pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
As always, what an incredible honor to sit down and
chat with two legends in thedog training and behavior world.
I hope you enjoyed listening totheir insights and I look
forward to continuedcollaboration with Karen and
Tricia.
And don't forget to pre-orderPatricia's upcoming book A Way
to Me, where you can find linksin the show notes too, and keep
an eye out for Karen's upcomingbook my Dog's Mystery Adventure.
Thanks for tuning in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
My friends, you too can get a PhD and sniff around
on the floor for the smell ofurine.
Yeah, I think there's some here.

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