July 22, 2024 • 56 mins
What does it take to truly understand and live with Livestock Guardian Dogs (LGDs)? Join us for this enlightening episode to hear about the knowledge and strategies that are essential for successfully integrating these remarkable, independent dogs into your home. Our special guest, Elizabeth Ingalls, an LGD behavior expert, shares her personal journey from fostering a Pyrenees mix to leading Big Fluffy Dog Rescue and running her own consulting practice.
Elizabeth unpacks the unique traits of various LGD breeds such as the Great Pyrenees, Maremas, and Anatolian Shepherds, shedding light on their intelligence, autonomy, and the behavioral challenges they present. Whether you're a current LGD owner or considering becoming one, you'll gain valuable insights into why these dogs often end up in rescues and shelters, and how to navigate their transition from livestock guardians to household pets. We delve into breed-specific characteristics, the importance of understanding your dog's motivations, and how to manage their natural behaviors like barking and territorial aggression.
ABOUT ELIZABETH (She/her):
~Bs in Biology - graduated with honors
~CDBC via IAABC
~L-FDM- Shelter Division
~In my 19th year of working with dogs!
~Former- Executive Director of Big Fluffy Dog Rescue- specializing rescuing LGD breeds and their mixes
~Current- behavior consultant for National Great Pyrenees Rescue and several other rescue
~Current- Owner Elizabeth Ingalls Dog Behavior and Training- working with dogs and their humans nationally and internationally- last count was 37 states and 5 countries ;) In person locations include CT, NH and FL
~Specialize in LGD breeds- especially ones who are in pet homes.
~Voted the #1 remote dog trainer in the US, and the #1 dog trainer in CT by Sniffspot
~Founder and moderator of the Facebook Group 'Great Pyrenees Training that Works'- a R+ group dedicated to helping pyrenees and other working breeds owners
-Currently lives with 2 LGD mixes, Darwin and Phoenix and a husband
-Can be found traveling in our RV with the dogs as much as possible.
Elizabeth's Webinar on Great Pyrenees:
https://www.elizabethingalls.com/videos/v/greatpyreneesthebasics
Limited time offer! The Aggression in Dogs Master Course and Expert Webinar Bundle! Only 50 will be made available.
https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/bundles/the-aggression-in-dogs-master-course-and-expert-webinar-bundle-2024
Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com
Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
Check out all of our webinars, courses, and educational content here:
Webinars, courses, and more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Big old fluffy dogs like Great Pyrenees or Maremas
can be so visually appealing,but do unsuspecting pet
guardians sometimes bite offmore than they can chew with
livestock guardian dogs?
Elizabeth Ingalls, an expert inLGDs and their behavior, joins
me for this episode on allthings livestock guardian dogs.
(00:22):
On all things LivestockGuardian Dogs.
Elizabeth has a degree inbiology, is a certified dog
behavior consultant, a licensedfamily dog mediator and is the
former executive director forBig Fluffy Dog Rescue, which
specializes in rescuingLivestock Guardian Dog breeds
and their mixes.
She's also a behaviorconsultant for the National
Great Pyrenees Rescue and ownsElizabeth Ingalls Dog Behavior
(00:46):
and Training and works with dogsand humans around the world.
And if you are enjoying thebitey end of the dog, you can
support the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in
Scottsdale, arizona, with bothin-person and online options.
(01:09):
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
(01:31):
in dogs.
Hey guys, welcome back to theBitey End of the Dog.
This week we're going to betalking about livestock guardian
dogs, and I have an expert onthis topic with me, elizabeth
Ingalls, who I've known forquite a few years and we've had
some experiences workingtogether in different aspects of
(01:52):
everything from rescue totraining, so I am excited to
welcome Elizabeth.
Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to be here andtalk about my favorite subject.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
So let's jump right into how you got started in this
work and working with theseLGDs.
You had worked in rescue before, so tell us a little bit about
your background and what got youinto this.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
It was actually completely by accident that I
got into working with livestockguardian dogs.
The story goes I lost my goldenretriever.
I wanted to foster and rescueand a transport company needed a
foster for a puppy with anunknown to me rescue at the time
and it was a little pure mixpuppy and I fostered that dog
(02:37):
and that dog was with Big FluffyDog Rescue and so it really
just grew from there.
I became a volunteer and thenthe president of the
organization and eventuallyexecutive director of the
organization and we really grewat least at the time that I was
there from placing, I want tosay, about 400 dogs a year to
(02:57):
about 2,500 dogs a year when Ileft and I'm sure they're
placing even more dogs now Likeit was a really big and
wonderful operation.
And so not only did I fall inlove with Livestock Guardian
dogs and their mixes and rescueand that whole thing, but I also
I became kind of the solutionfor some of the behavior stuff.
(03:19):
When there was something wrong,I was local and I was going to
figure it out.
So I got my chops kind ofdiving in and hands-on
experience and luckily for me, Ihad a lot of people I could
reach out to you being one ofthem right when I needed help
and lots of reading and lots oflearning.
I tell everyone I did lots ofthings wrong until I figured out
(03:41):
how to do things right, butthat's really where I started
and then resigned from justbackground-wise, resigned from
Big Fluffy and opened a privatepractice doing behavioral
consulting and now I get to dowhat I love I have.
A vast majority of my clientsare livestock guardian dogs.
I work with clients bothnationally and internationally
and it's really cool.
(04:03):
I enjoy what I do.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
It's amazing.
It's quite an amazing journeytoo.
I mean, it also kind of makesme feel old, because I remember
when we worked back in the day.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I actually I've been working with dogs for 19 years
now.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Wow yeah, and now here you are, a certified dog
behavior consultant working yourown private practice, which is
just an amazing journey.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
But you know we were talking before the show started.
We were talking about just thishuge influx of dogs now to
rescue to organizations like theone you used to head up, and
such a significant increase inthe number of livestock guardian
dogs ending up in rescue.
So can you tell me more aboutwhat you're seeing there, what
you're witnessing with thisinflux of livestock guardian
dogs in rescue and shelters?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yes, man, that is a complicated question and with
lots of answers and layers to it.
So just for some context, I'mthe on-staff behavioral
consultant for National GreatPeer Rescue, so I help them with
unknown dogs or dogs who arecoming back into rescue, who are
dealing with you know,aggression-related behaviors or
(05:10):
fear-related behaviors.
So I get a good firsthandexperience there.
Say, 10 years ago it was veryrare to see a purebred livestock
guardian dog in a shelter andif you did, it was maybe a great
Pyrenees.
Over the last 10 years, for avariety of reasons, over the
(05:46):
last 10 years, for a variety ofreasons, we've seen a huge
increase in not only the numberof dogs that are needing to be
rehomed, either in the sheltersystem, privately, whatever, but
now we're seeing multitudes ofthese kind of what used to be
considered rare breed dogs.
So the increase is huge.
I actually went on.
There's a giant, I think.
The page is called GreatPyrenees Rehoming page.
They have 53,000 people on thatpage and I went and just on
that one page alone I countedout some stats for a week and
(06:08):
last week there were 56 dogslisted just for rehoming and
these were mostly dogs insomebody's home and you know,
for top common reasons they werelooking to rehome them.
So I think we're seeing anincrease in some ways, from
looking at Lena's article aboutlivestock guardian dogs that
(06:28):
we're seeing an increase insmall farm homesteads having the
need, or thinking they have theneed, to get a livestock
guardian dog, also seeing it asa potential income producing
opportunity.
So breeding these dogs and thennot selling them.
And rescues and shelters aregetting these dogs in by litters
(06:50):
and I don't know if you knowlivestock guardian dogs usually
have large litters, like 12 pluspuppies, so they're showing up
everywhere.
I mean again, in 10 years agogetting a purebred livestock
guardian dog from rescue waslike finding a unicorn, and now
they're a dime, a dozen.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
What do you think the appeal is?
I mean-.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Oh, they're adorable.
Livestock guardian dog puppiesare fluffy, cute, sweet.
So if we're talking aboutpuppies, who doesn't want just
like a giant white, fluffy puppywho is placid?
When we think about breed grouptraits, right, I think that
people think livestock guardiandog breed groups as puppies are
(07:36):
easy because they're observant,they're calm, but that's what
we've brought them to beobserving Like we expect herding
breeds to be kind of chasey andnippy as puppies, we expect
gundog breeds to get excited andbe mouthy, and so people get
these dogs as puppy and they'reeasy, they're placid, they're
(07:58):
sweet and they're just like yeah, man, let's chill, let's look
at things.
Oh yeah, everything's great.
Man, let's chill, let's look atthings.
Oh yeah, everything's great.
But what people aren't as awareof is that because we bred them
to be observant, that's howthey are.
Then we get to social maturityand all those things that
they've observed, suddenlythey're going to be like all
right, I know what to guard nowand I'm going to take care of
(08:18):
this space and be aware of allof this stuff.
So it comes as a shock topeople.
So I think, like I said,there's a huge list of reasons.
I think, again, there's a commonmisconception about how to
raise working dogs, kind of thishands-off option of we throw a
dog in with stock and we expectit to just intrinsically know to
(08:42):
do the right thing.
And these dogs still needguidance, either from an adult
livestock guardian dog or ahuman who's going to say we
don't chase the lambs, we don'teat the chickens, those sort of
things.
So failed working dogs is onepart, and again, because these
dogs are inexpensive, now a lotof people are saying I'd rather
(09:03):
just get rid of the one that ateall the chickens and try again
for a hundred bucks, as opposedto really working with that dog
and teaching them what'sappropriate.
I think with anything there'snature and nurtures, there's
genetics and we never want tofight it.
But we also need to understandthat not every dog who is bred
to be a livestock guardian dog,even if its parents have all of
(09:24):
the perfect traits, is going tohave that drive out of 12
puppies.
Not all of them is going towant to card or want to be out
in the field, and so there's thefailure on that end.
And on the other end of thatthere's failed pet dogs, where
they find themselves in anenvironment that they're not
(09:44):
equipped for and can't handle.
Oftentimes we see that in urbanenvironments, in heavily
populated suburban environments.
I'm not saying that these dogscan't be there.
I mean I have them in suburbia.
But, trust me, we work hard tonormalize the environment and
make affordances and Iunderstand there's a lot of
(10:04):
challenges that come with that.
So failed working dogs, failedpet dogs, again, inadequate
preparation for what these dogsactually are as guardians.
Again, they're easy, lovelypuppies and they hit adolescence
and it seems like people'sheads explode.
All of these behaviors theywere not expected and didn't see
(10:27):
and seem dangerous andproblematic to it.
Suddenly, when you've got ahundred pound adolescent who
decides they're not lettinggrandma in the house Because to
us we love grandma and know herand to them she's a stranger and
some weird old lady trying tocome in the house and so those
things tend to be problematic.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, and so the travesty here is just really not
understanding what we'veselected for in livestock
guardian dogs.
So I'd love to jump more intothat in just a second, but I did
want to give a shout out to DrLena Kaiser's article, which you
mentioned.
It's on aggressivedogcom andit's a great article and gets
into the reasons and some of thestatistics on what we were just
talking about, all thissignificant influx of dogs in
rescue and shelters and all ofthe reasons you just mentioned,
(11:12):
and so let's talk about that.
You know again.
Let's just back up a little bit, in case somebody is new to
livestock guardian dogs.
What are they selected for,what are the breed
characteristics and what aresome of the breeds that
encompass livestock guardiandogs?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, yeah.
So, like the name implieslivestock guardian dog we have
selected them to guard livestockand, with that being said, we
have chosen dogs who have lowerprey drive and we can talk about
what that looks like Protectiveand using ritualized aggression
(11:45):
to deter threats.
And if you're not familiar withthose terms and all of that
stuff, you know they're not brednecessarily to run off and
fight every bear and coyote thatyou know comes across, but
they're going to use barkingbehavior, right, bark, bark,
bark, to let everybody knowthey're there.
Hey, if you come over here andmess with me or my flock, you'll
(12:07):
have something to deal with.
But also that they are largeenough and confident enough to
engage with a threat should theyneed to, but ideally again, for
the safety of everybodyinvolved.
They used kind of escalated,ritualized aggression and upping
their threat level.
You've also bred them to berelatively independent.
(12:30):
Traditionally these dogs wereon hundreds of thousands of
acres with probably a group ofdogs and maybe a shepherd and
that sort of thing.
So they have been bred to beindependent, not stubborn, which
I hear all the time, but to beable to make a decision without
human input.
They're not looking to me tosay, oh hey, mom, should I tell
(12:50):
that coyote over there to pissoff?
They're making that decision inthe moment and what they feel
is right and correct and they'realso determining who their
charges are and everything likethat.
So we have bred thattraditionally is what we have
bred them to do.
So as far as breeds and thingslike that, I tend to think of it
(13:11):
as breed group characteristicsmore so than breed
characteristics per se.
Only because I think that youknow there's so much variability
and you know this right.
And in any breed group of dogsthere are dogs with great
Pyrenees who are welcoming toeverybody and their dogs are
(13:31):
other end of the spectrum whothink everybody's a threat and
you know, kind of is likeGandalf, thou shall not pass,
sort of thing.
So there's variability in allof that.
But overall what we see as faras breed characteristics are you
know they sound negative butthey're what we need Territorial
aggression, right Intoleranceto strange dogs, creatures,
(13:57):
everything like that Intoleranceand oftentimes suspicion of
strangers.
Again, most of this hits atsocial maturity.
As puppies they're verywelcoming and sweet and happy to
meet everybody, but they tendto grow up to be suspicious of
strangers.
We also see any sort ofguarding behavior we see in the
home, sometimes like resourceguarding and those sort of
(14:18):
things.
But we've bred these dogs toguard what they perceive as
their resource, and sometimesthat includes their flock and
all of that sort of thing.
So those are a lot of the breedtraits that we see.
I also think motivation, againwith that independent sort of
thing, doesn't mean they'restubborn, it doesn't mean
they're stupid, but it alsodoesn't mean they're overly
(14:41):
interested in working for foodper se or lots of repetition and
training.
And that can sometimes presenta challenge both for owners and
for people professionals who areworking with these dogs, kind
of understanding what theirmotivation is.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
And at least in the US, we're seeing a lot of great
peers and Maremas, and now we'restarting to see some of the
other livestock guardian breedscoming in.
So can you talk more about them?
Like you know, which breedsencompass this whole umbrella of
livestock guardian dogs, andwhat are more common?
What are we?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
starting to see the kind of traditional five like
five big white fluffy dogs thatwe always saw, like the Tatra,
the Marema, the Pyrenees, theAkbash, and that was four.
I'm missing one and I'm sureI'll think of it later.
So on that end we've gotthey're slightly less stranger,
(15:36):
directed aggression and lesslikely to kind of like leave an
engaged sort of thing.
And then on the other end ofthings we get what we call kind
of sharper temperaments and alittle more athleticism.
In the middle we've gotAnatolian Shepherds.
Those are relatively commonaround here but we're kind of
seeing what we used to considerrare breeds Caucasian of Charka,
central Asian Shepherd.
(15:57):
We're seeing a lot of thesekind of really powerful dogs who
also traditionally tend to theywere livestock guardian dogs
but they were also propertyguardians and things like that
and we're finding that they'remuch less tolerant of typical
life in suburbia and strangersand things like that and, to the
(16:19):
point, heavy, heavy managementis required for safety in a lot
of not all of them, but severalof them.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Have you seen any influx of Kangals yet?
If anybody's been, on Instagramtoo, they can look for those
videos and you can see just howpowerful and large those dogs
are.
Have you seen much of that inthe US?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
So I'm seeing more of that on the West Coast, for
whatever reason over seeing iton the East Coast.
On the East Coast we're seeinga lot of Central Asian Shepherds
and Caucasian of Charkas, andthen on the West Coast we're
seeing that and I don't know.
I'm not quite sure why thatpopulation difference is, but
yeah, we're seeing huge amountsof those breeds in like even LA.
(17:03):
Just recently there was I had aclient who picked up a puppy
from a shelter and that's whatit was so and the whole litter
got surrendered which I thoughtyeah.
Yeah, and these dogs are no jokeand they're big and they're
powerful and they can be.
You know, they can beintimidating.
They were bred to beintimidating, right, and when
(17:23):
you're like, let's walk throughdowntown, la tends to have some
struggles there.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yes, yes.
So let's get into the issues,now that these dogs experience.
You had touched upon some ofthem.
So what we've selected for isto protect the territory,
protect the flock, guard things,without necessarily engaging in
these huge battles, but they'regoing to put on an ominous
presence or a show to protectwhat they're trying to protect.
(17:48):
So what is the?
Obviously we can start toforesee the issues in somebody's
home and somebody that'sgetting a dog as a pet dog and
is supposed to be, you know,laid back and just chilling out
as a puppy.
But then they get into socialmaturity and those ages.
What are the common issues thatwe're going to face?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
So common issues with that.
I did a little survey of justmy own client load last year.
I took in 107 livestockguardian dog clients and
percentage-wise, 25% of thepeople came to me for stranger
directed aggression, so that'sreally the biggest percentage
(18:27):
and other people seeking helpcame for inter household
aggression, reactivity, guardingand barking and the remaining
kind of percentage was some fearand wandering, which is again a
very typical thing aboutlivestock guarding dogs needing
adequate fencing and containmentand everything like that.
(18:48):
But yeah, those are usuallywhat we see presenting the most,
with people needing help withand it being unexpected for them
and kind of coming up at socialmaturity.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And what are some factors that are influencing
this to happen?
So we could say like oh, okay,we can just train this side of
the dog, we just get themsocialized early on enough.
What are you seeing with theproblems with that kind of
mindset?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, I don't think you can train genetics out.
I think that's the biggesttakeaway from that.
I think trying to traingenetics out of a dog seems like
a really frustrating exercisefor the dog, the owner, the
behavior consultant or thetrainer or anything like that.
So, truth be told, we cansocialize them as young dogs,
(19:34):
but they're still going tomature into who they're going to
be.
I usually change it from Idon't need my livestock guardian
dog, who is a pet, to be socialwith everybody.
What I need them to do isunderstand what belongs and what
doesn't, and that I am theirpartner.
I'm going to help themdetermine that, and that's
really the biggest thing that Itry to work together for my
(19:57):
clients and their dogs ishelping them partner together.
If we just let our adolescentlivestock guardian dog choose
what belongs and what doesn't,you may not be pleased with the
results of those choices, right,and so my job is to say here's
what belongs and here's whatdoesn't, and we can get into the
specifics of how we do that andeverything like that.
(20:18):
But I really think thatpartnering with your dog is
helpful and understanding theirintrinsic motivation, right.
I think that a lot of times whenwe see typical training
solutions offered for these dogs, they end up in failure or at
least limited success.
(20:38):
So for them say, withreactivity and discomfort, with
unfamiliar dogs approaching andthings like that, a lot of
traditional people are saying,hey, get your dog's attention,
have them focus on you, let thething passes.
And when we've got a dog whothey're not fearful of things,
they're saying that thingdoesn't belong here and I'd like
(21:00):
to do something about it.
That thing doesn't belong hereand I'd like to do something
about it.
Also, you have to think ifthere's something that you're
worried about and or thinking isa threat, asking our livestock
guardian dog to look away fromit is the hardest thing to do.
So kind of switching for me andmy clients.
I'm like, yeah, look at it,let's look at that thing.
Yep, yes, I see that dog acrossthe street and I see him.
(21:23):
He is not a threat, my friend.
He's going to be there everyday.
He is not a threat to us.
Can we check him out?
Can we keep moving along?
And allowing them to processtheir environment is the most
important thing and, I think,the thing that most clients come
to me not having any experiencewith.
So that's one of the things wetry to do with that.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, it's got me thinking too about.
You know, we talk about this nowquite a bit in the dog training
community.
But you know, think just howmismatched teaching something
like let's go to a group classand we'll teach you how to sit
and we'll teach you how to heal,and like how that doesn't touch
or really address any of theissues that most these guardians
are going to face because ofthe environment and the genetics
(22:07):
that are in play.
And I love that you mentioned,like this sort of cooperative
teamwork between the dog and theperson.
Because LGDs are so independent, right, and that's something we
have to think about.
It's almost like we have togive them guidance in their
independence.
Right, they're automaticallyindependent, they're totally
fine just being on their ownversus some of the other breeds.
(22:29):
So talk more about that, theindependent nature of livestock
guardians, how they're liketotally happy being out and just
laying out in the snow bythemselves all night and not
needing to go inside and becuddling up next to the person.
But how that factors into allof the training and behavior as
well, right.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's an interesting adjustment.
If you're not used to it, Ithink if you come from having
biddable dogs and dogs who I hada Springer Spaniel who, if I
asked him to sit a hundred times, he would have yes, yes, ma'am,
I love you Absolutely.
I just want to make you happy.
(23:05):
I have videos of I don'tremember if you ever met Queen
Margaret.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I did, I did yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
But me asking Queen Margaret to come inside, and my
joke was always like if she hadmiddle fingers she would have
given them to me, and so she wasindependent.
But of course I had to figureout what her motivations
reliable and consistent, and notin a top-down sort of way, but
(23:49):
in a partnership sort of wayI've always looked at yes, I
care for you, yes, I have tomake a lot of the decisions here
, but let's be partners in allof this.
Let's come together and let melook at what you're seeing,
trying to look at it through theeyes of your perception of
reality and everything like thatand help you make sense of it.
(24:10):
So that's always been where Iwanted to come from it with and
how I coach my clients to comefrom it with, and I think you're
right.
Going back to the whole, Ithink everybody does the
research right.
One of the things we talkedabout was people think they do
the research.
I get emails no joke severaltimes a week saying I'm your
(24:31):
client.
I thought I did the researchand then I got this dog and, oh
my goodness, it barks anddoesn't listen to me and doesn't
want to stay home and all ofthe stuff that we've kind of
been talking about, and so Ithink it's important to realize
like we can do all the researchin the world, but it's unless
you talk to somebody who isfamiliar with them.
(24:53):
How a livestock guardian dogpresents itself off property is
very different than how theypresent themselves and how they
act and live on their ownproperty at home.
And again, going back to thatQueen Margaret example, when I
ran Big Fluffy I would bringQueen Margaret everywhere and if
you met her off property shewas giant and beautiful, she was
(25:15):
135 pounds of loveliness, andoff property she was tolerant of
people and strangers and shewas really well-adjusted and
people thought, oh my gosh,they'd always be like I love her
, this is what I want.
She's placid, she's quiet,she's calm and peaceful and all
of this stuff.
(25:35):
And I was like, hey, listen,that's what she is here in this
environment.
If you come to my house, youwill see she is on her own
property.
She will bark like nobody'sbusiness to let God knows who
and what.
Let them know that she is thereand she is a threat to be taken
(25:57):
seriously, right?
And if you came into my house,we have guest protocols for all
livestock guardian dogs.
There are guest protocols forhow they come in, because if not
, margaret may say, oh, you'renot going to come in, and that
manifests as growling, posturing, pushing back and even
low-level stuff, just kind ofcoming and standing in front of
(26:18):
me.
So my job was to say, hey, girl, I don't need you to do that,
I've got this.
Thanks so much.
But she was a very differentdog at home than she was out and
about.
So I think all these people seethese dogs out and about and
think, oh, that's what I want, Ilove that and it's really
important to know what they'relike on property.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, I want to definitely dive into the details
of the differences in how wemight approach the training and
behavior change strategies, butfirst I'm going to take a break
to hear a word from our sponsorsand we'll be right back.
If you're interested in hearingmore about applicable and
immediate steps you can use withyour own dog or in your cases,
(27:03):
I have a subscription seriescalled Help for Dogs with
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some of the topics already inthe episode library that you
would receive immediate accessto include territorial
aggression, emotions andaggression, dog-to-dog resource,
guarding dogs that bite whenbeing pet or handled, aggression
(27:26):
on leash, and a bunch more.
These are solo shows where Itake you step-by-step on how to
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You'll find a little subscribebutton on Apple Podcasts where
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Your support of the show isvery much appreciated and don't
(27:47):
forget to join me for the fifthannual Aggression and Dogs
conference, either in person oronline from Scottsdale, arizona,
from October 11th to 13th 2024.
This year's lineup includesmany incredible speakers,
including Dr Clive Wynn,veronica Poutel and Gina Fares,
sarah Rodriguez and Jess Arachi,emma Parsons, sarah Colnice, dr
(28:10):
Kelly Moffitt, sam Freeman, drAmy Cook and many more.
Head on over toaggressivedogcom and click on
the conference tab to learn moreabout the exciting agenda on
everything from advancedconcepts in dog body language to
working with aggression andshelter environments, to genetic
influences on behavior.
Dr Amy Cook is also going to bebringing her entertaining and
(28:31):
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party, which, by the way, willbe live streamed as well as in
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All right, we're back here withElizabeth Ingalls and we've been
(29:32):
chatting about LivestarGuardian Dogs and now we're
going to get into sort of thedetails of training and the
differences.
So Elizabeth was talking about,you know, working off property,
the difference between offproperty and on property,
property and kind of a lightbulb went off in my head was
like, okay, maybe we should beworking on some more of these
foundational skills and thesegreetings and things off
property because we're morelikely to see the success and if
(29:54):
that would transition to onproperty.
But I want to hear about likeyou had this greeting ritual you
mentioned like how to you knowif somebody's coming over, uncle
Bob's coming over, what are yougoing to do there?
Like, do you just create aconsistent routine?
Do you use certain cues?
So walk us through that alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Sure.
So shout out to Kim Brophy andher off-duty hack.
That is what I've been usingfor probably a good 15 years now
.
Although the off-duty hack thatshe calls it sounds much nicer,
I actually always refer to itas we don't eat our friends dogs
.
The freedom to practice thebehaviors of rushing to the door
(30:30):
and then again, with livestockguardian dogs, potentially
deciding that that personshouldn't be there, increases
(30:53):
the chances of just kind of someyucky stuff to happen.
Right, depending on the dog, itcould be anything from
over-aroused behaviors that Idon't want practiced.
Right, depending on the dog, itcould be anything from
over-aroused behaviors that Idon't want practiced right
Barking and that sort of thing,all the way up to a dog with
maladaptive guardian stuffbiting, lunging, that sort of
thing.
And so my protocol is I teachmy dog hey, go to your room.
(31:16):
That's easy to put on cue.
I like using a baby gate versusa crate, because I want them to
have the opportunity to movearound, not feel threatened,
everything like that, and sothey know to go to their room.
My guest comes in.
My dogs can bark, they can dowhatever it is they need to or
want to.
I let my guest enter.
(31:37):
There's a lot of socialsignaling going on, I think with
livestock guardian dogs andeven off property.
If I've got one that's worriedabout things, I make sure me, as
the human, that I'm showingaffiliative signs to the
stranger.
Oftentimes I'm like, hey, I'mgoing to rub your shoulder.
I want my dog to know I'mwelcoming this person into my
(31:57):
home.
So, using social signaling, Iwelcome the person into my home.
My livestock guardian dog, orany dog, is able to really
observe that and what this doesis again putting those
predictable patterns in place sothe dog knows what to expect.
They're able to sociallyobserve me.
And for my clients again, myclients are reaching out to me
(32:18):
because there's issues thisallows my clients the ability to
to breathe, to know that ifthey have a dog who's struggling
, that nothing is going tohappen.
We're using an installed gatethat's nice and tall, that the
dog can't push down, that theyknow they can welcome somebody
into their home and nobody'sgoing to get hurt.
The dog isn't going to rushanybody.
(32:39):
The other thing I like to usethis for is the fact that most
people are not that fluent inthese lower level signs of
livestock guardian dogs guardingor being uncomfortable or
anything like that by havingthem behind a gate the owner can
observe the dog in a way thatis safe and easy and really be
(33:03):
able to judge them.
Because it's in the past.
A lot of what people wouldsuggest is have the dog on a
leash, meet them outside andthat can work for some dogs not
saying it doesn't work, but whenthat's happening the owner is
behind the dog.
It's hard to see as much bodylanguage when you're physically
behind a dog and I can't tellyou how many clients come to me
(33:27):
using that method whose dog youknow bit somebody or used you
know an air snap or those sortof things because they weren't
able to see the body languagefrom behind.
So this kind of mitigates allof that and over time it gets
pretty easy.
You've met my dog, phoenix,before.
He was a tough dude as anadolescent and we use this
(33:53):
process.
He knows go to your room, I geta couple of barks, the person
comes in.
The process now is threeminutes max.
I keep it consistent.
Still, I'm not worried abouthim meeting people.
We've done a lot of work.
I can gauge how he feels.
The only people that I usuallydon't have him meet are some
sort of workers, but he's veryclear in his signaling of how
(34:14):
comfortable he is and if he'suncomfortable, he's not coming
out of that gated area to meetmy guests.
There's no need for him to haveto make friends with the solar
people who are trying to sell ussolar panels.
I don't need that, so he staysin there.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I want to unpack this further a little bit because,
typically in our stranger dangercases, right, we've got like
our typical go-to strategieslet's use food, let's use
counter conditioning, let's usetreat and retreat, let's use
something where we're going tohelp this dog feel better about
the stranger.
But in the cases that we'retalking about, we're looking at
dogs that often aren't fearfulof the strangers.
(34:51):
They're just doing their job asa livestock, guardian dog, and
so you're using sort of more ofa process of social learning or
social facilitation, where thedog's like okay, I see my
guardian saying hello and sayingthis person's safe, and you
sometimes don't even necessarilyhave to go to using food or
anything else, it's just the dogneeds to be communicated to
that, hey, this is safe, this isgood.
(35:12):
I'm looking for direction here.
Is this person safe or not, ordo I need to sometimes make my
own decision about if thisperson's safe or not?
But yeah, so can you talk usthrough a little bit of the
differences like that, because Iknow you've worked both types
of cases in a high degree.
So would you say that's prettyaccurate.
Social facilitation is reallythe game changer for livestock
guardian dogs.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I do think so, and that comes with relationship
building and trust.
I have to have a dog who trustsme and that sort of thing.
But I think that because manyof them aren't, I'm going to say
traditionally food motivated,using kind of like the open bar,
closed bar sort of thing, isn'talways going to work for them
because the food isn'tmotivating for them or they
won't eat it.
They're more concerned aboutthe observation of that and
(36:00):
ensuring that it is safe andthat those people are welcome,
and social facilitation betweenthe human and the dog is the
biggest thing I think that wecan do for our livestock
guardian dogs.
And they are smart and theyfigure it out really quickly.
They are looking for subtlecues that everybody's feeling
(36:23):
good.
The other thing let's thinkabout like body language.
Not only are livestock guardiandogs subtle signalers with their
own body language, but we havebred them to be observant of
others with their own bodylanguage.
So it's not just that out inthe field they're physically
looking for a coyote or a wolfor whatever it is.
(36:45):
They're keen observers of theirflock and notice small signals
of maybe feeling nervous oranxious.
Right, they're going to noticethat and then be like all right,
what's going on, what'shappening Right, when they're
noticing their quote, unquote,flocks, signals.
So in that case, if they'renoticing that we're anxious and
(37:06):
all of that stuff and I'm notblaming anybody or anything like
that but they're going tonotice how we feel Are we
comfortable with this scenario?
Are we feeling good about it?
Are we saying like I've gotthis, I've got this.
Yeah, grandma's allowed to behere.
Yep, I know we're not used toher, but she's allowed to be
here.
I'm feeling good, I'm happyshe's here.
That's the biggest socialsignaling that we can give to
(37:26):
them.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Good, I'm happy she's here, that's the biggest social
signaling that we can give tothem.
What do you do for clients thatmaybe are like and we've all
gotten these clients and I don'tblame them either.
I think there's a reasonablerequest for a dog to actually
guard the property but also befriendly to your friends.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
So you'd probably get those requests.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I got a livestock guarding dog because I want them
to bark at strangers and toprotect the property.
But, when Uncle Bob comes over?
I want Uncle Bob to be able tocome over safely.
Do you find that's a realisticgoal?
And it certainly sounds morerealistic, actually, for me,
with dogs that are intuitivelylike we were just describing.
They can catch the socialsignals, they can understand the
communication.
It doesn't have to befood-based or any particular
(38:06):
type of training per se, butit's more the dog.
We're just tapping into thatdog's intuitive nature to
determine who's safe or not.
So what do you say to clientslike that, where they're like, I
want the guarding still to bethere.
I want my dog to protect me ifsomebody does break in.
But what if they also want thefriendliness side?
Do you go back to the same kindof protocol?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
So usually yes, because I think that, like with
everything, it depends on thedog.
I think every dog kind of hasvariances in their tolerance of
sociability, of strangers comingin and out of the house and
everything like that.
So I found some dogs are justnot going to be tolerant of
(38:50):
somebody just walking into thehome, which is why we put these
kind of protocols in place sothey know what to expect.
Other dogs who seem maybe alittle more social and can be
tolerant, again, we're puttingspecific protocols in place
saying if this happens and thishappens and this happens, this
is okay.
Meaning again, I'll go back tomy own dogs.
(39:12):
If you walk in a specific doorin my house, that's the stranger
door.
If you walk in a different doorin my house, that's the we know
where you're coming from door.
And if you come and even if I'mintroducing somebody new and
it's a pet sitter and we gothrough it several times of I'm
home, they come in the door, wedo all the things and a few
different times the pet sitterwill come on their own and we
(39:35):
really introduce it of this dooris okay, this door, they know
strangers are coming in thatdoor thing that we can do.
But I also think settingrealistic client expectations,
saying that if you have aguardian breed who is adequately
territorial aggression, we'regoing to see them.
You're not going to havesomebody walk in the backyard
(39:58):
and I think being honest aboutthat is really important.
And again I'll go back to myown stuff.
You're not going to walk in mybackyard without my dogs having
a really intense reaction and Ithink it's okay to accept that.
It doesn't mean my dogs aregoing to maul anybody.
I don't want to say that.
But they're going to comerunning and they're going to
(40:19):
come barking and the expectationof that is okay.
I, as their owner, make surethat that gate doesn't have
access to a stranger walking inso they're not bamboozled and
all of that sort of thing.
But I think setting realisticclient expectations is good.
I also think that every dog isan individual.
(40:41):
So, kind of circling backaround, I still think you have
to set up predictable protocolsfor your dog.
Even if you want Uncle Bob tocome over, how is that going to
happen?
And is he coming overunattended?
Is he coming over and we do ourguest protocol?
And if you really need a dogwho's going to be welcoming to
all people.
(41:01):
I would suggest potentiallyadopting an older livestock
guardian dog who has been infoster care and has shown
themselves to be reallycomfortable with that.
Otherwise, it's a crapshoot,right?
If you get a puppy we don'tknow.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Get a Cavalier Kingchild Spaniel.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, you know, get a Springer
Spaniel, right, Like my Spanielwould have been like, oh my God
, hi, hi, hi.
Mike, oh my goodness, hello,here's my treat jar.
If you just want to get me oneof those, we'd be happy, right.
And so I think that I thinksetting those realistic
expectations is really, reallyimportant.
And we had talked to kind ofabout that whole gentle giant
(41:43):
myth for livestock guardian dogsand, and so I think that
there's this myth out there thatthese guys are oh, they're
gentle giants, right, and we seethese lovely videos of them
just laying on the ground andbaby goats are crawling all over
them and it's really cute.
I love that stuff too and insome ways they are gentle giants
(42:05):
, unless they're not, or untilthey're not, they're gentle
giants with what they considerbelongs, and I think that's the
biggest thing what belongs andwhat doesn't.
And how do we teach ourlivestock guardian dog what does
belong and what doesn't?
And this goes even fromfamiliar species, right, there's
(42:30):
our inner circle of dogs thatwe live with.
They belong, right, and usuallya livestock herding dog is
pretty tolerant of them.
Or cats, right, we've got ourcats at home.
We are tolerant of that becausethey've been introduced in the
what belongs arena but perhapsoutside of that unfamiliar dogs
don't belong and they're athreat to be dealt with.
Unfamiliar cats don't belongand they're a threat to be dealt
(42:53):
with.
My own dog I fostered kittens.
They belong, they're in thehouse We've introduced them.
He's like, oh my hi kitty rightOut and about.
Those cats don't belong in hismind and he chases them.
He's.
You know he's never heard a cator I would never let him or
anything like that.
But that really scares ownersif they're not familiar with
(43:17):
that.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
It's so interesting because everything you're
talking about, for whateverreason, the algorithms on social
media are feeding me a wholebunch of livestock guardian
videos, and a lot of them areshowing just how gentle these
dogs are to like newborn youknow animals on property, or
children or kittens, and it's sointeresting that there's again
(43:40):
so intuitive about knowing whobelongs and who doesn't.
I love that you framed it thatway.
That's actually a really greatway to put things and how they
might perceive their world.
So can we kind of lean towardslike for maybe, people using
livestock guardian dogs more asutility and what your
experiences are there whenthey're getting these dogs as
(44:00):
puppies?
Are they doing much training inair quotes per se for the dogs
with the human interactions, oror do they let the current
livestock guardian dogs showthem the ropes?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Ooh, man, you're opening a can of worms there.
If you want to get into aninternet fight.
You talk about how you shouldraise your livestock guardian
dog as a working dog.
So a lot of traditional methodsin the past have been put the
dog out there, their instinct isgoing to take over and
(44:32):
everything like that, and withsome dogs it does.
A lot of people who uselivestock guardian dogs as
working dogs do really well whenthey have an appropriate an
adult dog to.
Again, that social signalingthing is huge right so to model
their behavior after.
But the most successful workingdogs I see have adult livestock
(44:56):
guardian dogs, if possible, tokind of model after, as well as
human intervention andobservation.
Again, these dogs are stillpuppies, these dogs are still
adolescents.
They're often going to makepoor choices.
Adolescents at large make poorchoices, whether you're a human
or a dog or whatever right, andso they need humans to guide
(45:20):
them and to prevent behaviorsthat we don't want to see more
of.
The whole hands-off approachthing that had been really
really common for a while isstarting to kind of shift,
because people are understandingtoo that if you throw a dog in
a field, right, and it nevergoes in a car.
It never has to be on a leash,it has never been handled.
(45:42):
And then anything happens.
Life happens, the dog needs tobe seen by a vet, a national
emergency happens and we need toput it in the car, a big, huge
freeze comes through and yes,they're big, yes, they're fluffy
, they can tolerate all sorts ofweather, but not all of it, and
they need to come inside forthe night.
Some of these things have shownthemselves to be very traumatic
for these dogs, or the farmcells, right.
(46:05):
This dog has never been handledby a human, has never even seen
what a house is like, has neverseen a leash, has never been a
vet, and then they go intorescue and it absolutely rocks
their world.
So I think we're not doinglivestock guarding working dogs
any favors if at least we don'tintroduce them to a little bit
of handling, a little bit of carstuff, a little bit of leash
(46:29):
work.
I don't need them to like walkin a heel, right, but I want
them to know sometimes I mightput a leash on you, it is not
the end of the world for you.
And so we're seeing a shift inthat and I think that's really,
really helpful and important andmakes for dogs that have more
resiliency.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
I love it.
I love everything you're sayingthere, because it also kind of
brings me to my next question,which is you know, we talk about
all the time meeting dogs'needs and what they've been
selected for.
Now let's say somebody goes outand gets that gentle giant that
they want, what are things theycan do to meet those needs?
Because you know, with likedogs that like to sniff, we can
(47:10):
get like a beagle, allow themthe opportunity to sniff.
Or we've got a retriever, we'vegot you know things to objects
to retrieve.
But what do we do for alivestock guarding dog?
We can't just be like, okay, goguard, satisfy your needs, go
guard the property.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
What do you suggest for pet guardian type of
environments?
The distance, but just theability to not have your
property be the only thing theyhave, because oftentimes then
they become much more protectiveof it and everything like that.
And so I want to say like, hey,go get off property, go
somewhere that is not superpopular and get a long line, let
(48:02):
them do their thing.
I call them hangouts.
Go and hang out.
Let your dog just hang out andobserve the world, and that is
often the most enriching thingthat we can do for them.
Hang out, eat some snacks.
All of my own personal dogshave always loved that, and that
has been game changing for myclients to realize we don't have
to walk three miles a day.
(48:23):
I don't need you to walk at aperfect heel, let's just go here
, let's sniff around, let's bepresent, let's observe the world
.
This can also be helpful withnormalizing the environment too,
saying oh yeah, see, all thestuff we see at home is out here
too and it's not that bad right, they're not a threat.
Kids on bikes or other dogs andall of that stuff.
(48:45):
So this kind of helps with thatSmall little things I found to
help for dogs who do like toguard sounds weird a bird feeder
.
So many of my own dogs and manyclient dogs have decided bird
feeders are cool.
They like the birds.
They don't really chase them.
Also they're not really gonnaget them because those tiny
little birds are super fast.
(49:05):
But I have multiple pictures ofmy client dogs hanging out near
a bird feeder and then barkingat you know any hawk or squirrel
who may dare come and eitherthreaten their birds or threaten
their birds food for thesquirrels and most of them they
get enormous satisfaction fromthat.
So there's small little thingsthat we can kind of do to meet
(49:28):
those guarding needs andeverything like that.
The other thing is the barkingthing.
Right, I think I'm never goingto train a livestock guardian
dog not to bark.
That's not fair for the dog,but I also don't want my
neighbor to hate me, so helpingthis dog normalize the
environment of what is a threatto bark at, what should I be
(49:50):
barking at and what is normalhere For my own dog?
I can't have him barking at.
We live in a relatively busysuburban area.
We have a big fence yard.
It's against a field, so wedon't have a lot of stuff
happening back there, but I havea lot of foot traffic and
things like that, and so for himwe worked on, you know,
(50:10):
checking life out, realizing theoil man wasn't a threat, and we
did pair that with food right,it usually was.
I look at the thing, maybe Iget a snack.
Everything feels cool.
And I told my dog, every timethat this black cat came and
peed on my hydrangeas I was like, oh, there's the bad kitty, and
he'd be like bark, bark, bark,bark, bark.
(50:31):
And so that's his job.
Now he protects my hydrangeasfrom getting peed on by the
black cat in our neighborhoodwho, again, I would never let
him hurt this cat.
He is behind a fence or in thehouse or whatever, but he takes
that job really seriously.
I want to give him an outlet tosay, yeah, nice work, my friend
, thank you for keeping thosesafe.
So I think there's ways to giveour dogs affordances in some
(50:54):
creative ways that maybe mostpeople don't think of.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
And we've talked a lot about the different
characteristics and really justhow different livestock guarding
dogs can be from a lot of theother types of or breeds we work
with.
But if you had like one takehome message in terms of the
secret to getting into alivestock guardian dog's brain,
in terms of training, let's say,for instance, good examples.
You know, a joke we make islike how do you get a livestock
(51:21):
guardian dog to recall right?
They're one of the dogs thatI've worked with that are much
less apt to decide if they wantto come when called you know,
and so if you had to like, startlooking at, all right, what am
I going to do to motivate mostlivestock guardian dogs and get
them to start working with youand get that team building going
on?
What would that look like?
What would it be for you?
Speaker 2 (51:41):
That's a good question.
Let's see.
I'm going to say, actually Ithink it's using my asks wisely.
I'm not going to ask mylivestock guardian dog to do a
bunch of stuff that doesn'tmatter if that makes sense.
And so I'm going to be wiseabout what I ask them to do and
(52:05):
reinforce it in a way that feelsreinforcing to them right.
I think you can build, you know, the desirable food drive.
Again, you're not getting aspaniel or anybody else like
that, but my guys can do somehiking, but we have worked hard
on it and it has taken years toget there.
(52:27):
So you know, we kind ofpractice a lot of things.
Long lines are your best friendand, for recall, with livestock
guardian dogs and some of themmay, you may never drop that
long line, depending on the dog,right.
But I think that too often weask our dogs for arbitrary
things.
And with Livestock Guardiandogs I want to say here's what
(52:48):
I'm asking.
I'm really consistent in it.
I'm going to pay you inwhatever way that you deem
worthwhile, and it's not goingto be all the time, it's not
going to be just for the heck ofit.
I'm not just asking for a sitfor every single thing.
So I think that for me it'susing what I ask of my dogs
(53:08):
pretty wisely so that I do getcooperation, not compliance
cooperation.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
So Brilliant way to wrap up the episode.
But I do want to give listenersa chance to figure out where
can they find more about you andwhat are you up to next.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
Oh yeah, so you can check out my website, which is
elizabethinglescom.
I run a training group onFacebook.
I want to say we have likealmost 10,000 people, if I
remember it's called GreatPyrenees Training.
That Works, lena helps me withit and we offer free advice.
So I'm hoping to be offeringsome group online livestock
(53:47):
guardian training and maybe Iwant to say living with
livestock guardians versustraining livestock guardians.
So I do that.
I also offer I've been doing alot of trainer to trainer
consults lately, which I thinkhave been helpful for any
trainers who aren't familiarwith livestock guardian dogs.
They want to chat about breedtraits and case studies and
(54:11):
things like that.
Again, I could talk about thisstuff all day long.
So I've been doing a lot ofthat and mostly you can find me
online.
Come and find me on my website,shoot me an email.
But mostly I'm working withhelping people live with their
livestock guardian dogs and notfight their nature but work with
(54:32):
it and understand them better.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Excellent, Elizabeth.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
This has been a really greatpleasure to talk to you and I
hope to see you again in thefuture.
Speaker 2 (54:41):
All right.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
I'm really happy we were able to do an episode on
livestock guardian dogs andfocus on their unique needs and
considerations before bringingone home.
Elizabeth truly has a passionfor these big, fluffy dogs and
I'm excited to hear more fromher in the future.
And don't forget to head onover to aggressivedogcom for
more information about helpingdogs with aggression, From the
(55:05):
Aggression in Dogs Master Courseto webinars from world-renowned
experts and even an annualconference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression and dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource
(55:26):
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
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You.
Big old fluffy dogs like Great Pyrenees or Maremas
can be so visually appealing,but do unsuspecting pet
guardians sometimes bite offmore than they can chew with
livestock guardian dogs?
Elizabeth Ingalls, an expert inLGDs and their behavior, joins
me for this episode on allthings livestock guardian dogs.
(00:22):
On all things LivestockGuardian Dogs.
Elizabeth has a degree inbiology, is a certified dog
behavior consultant, a licensedfamily dog mediator and is the
former executive director forBig Fluffy Dog Rescue, which
specializes in rescuingLivestock Guardian Dog breeds
and their mixes.
She's also a behaviorconsultant for the National
Great Pyrenees Rescue and ownsElizabeth Ingalls Dog Behavior
(00:46):
and Training and works with dogsand humans around the world.
And if you are enjoying thebitey end of the dog, you can
support the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in
Scottsdale, arizona, with bothin-person and online options.
(01:09):
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
(01:31):
in dogs.
Hey guys, welcome back to theBitey End of the Dog.
This week we're going to betalking about livestock guardian
dogs, and I have an expert onthis topic with me, elizabeth
Ingalls, who I've known forquite a few years and we've had
some experiences workingtogether in different aspects of
(01:52):
everything from rescue totraining, so I am excited to
welcome Elizabeth.
Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to be here andtalk about my favorite subject.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
So let's jump right into how you got started in this
work and working with theseLGDs.
You had worked in rescue before, so tell us a little bit about
your background and what got youinto this.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
It was actually completely by accident that I
got into working with livestockguardian dogs.
The story goes I lost my goldenretriever.
I wanted to foster and rescueand a transport company needed a
foster for a puppy with anunknown to me rescue at the time
and it was a little pure mixpuppy and I fostered that dog
(02:37):
and that dog was with Big FluffyDog Rescue and so it really
just grew from there.
I became a volunteer and thenthe president of the
organization and eventuallyexecutive director of the
organization and we really grewat least at the time that I was
there from placing, I want tosay, about 400 dogs a year to
(02:57):
about 2,500 dogs a year when Ileft and I'm sure they're
placing even more dogs now Likeit was a really big and
wonderful operation.
And so not only did I fall inlove with Livestock Guardian
dogs and their mixes and rescueand that whole thing, but I also
I became kind of the solutionfor some of the behavior stuff.
(03:19):
When there was something wrong,I was local and I was going to
figure it out.
So I got my chops kind ofdiving in and hands-on
experience and luckily for me, Ihad a lot of people I could
reach out to you being one ofthem right when I needed help
and lots of reading and lots oflearning.
I tell everyone I did lots ofthings wrong until I figured out
(03:41):
how to do things right, butthat's really where I started
and then resigned from justbackground-wise, resigned from
Big Fluffy and opened a privatepractice doing behavioral
consulting and now I get to dowhat I love I have.
A vast majority of my clientsare livestock guardian dogs.
I work with clients bothnationally and internationally
and it's really cool.
(04:03):
I enjoy what I do.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
It's amazing.
It's quite an amazing journeytoo.
I mean, it also kind of makesme feel old, because I remember
when we worked back in the day.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I actually I've been working with dogs for 19 years
now.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Wow yeah, and now here you are, a certified dog
behavior consultant working yourown private practice, which is
just an amazing journey.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
But you know we were talking before the show started.
We were talking about just thishuge influx of dogs now to
rescue to organizations like theone you used to head up, and
such a significant increase inthe number of livestock guardian
dogs ending up in rescue.
So can you tell me more aboutwhat you're seeing there, what
you're witnessing with thisinflux of livestock guardian
dogs in rescue and shelters?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yes, man, that is a complicated question and with
lots of answers and layers to it.
So just for some context, I'mthe on-staff behavioral
consultant for National GreatPeer Rescue, so I help them with
unknown dogs or dogs who arecoming back into rescue, who are
dealing with you know,aggression-related behaviors or
(05:10):
fear-related behaviors.
So I get a good firsthandexperience there.
Say, 10 years ago it was veryrare to see a purebred livestock
guardian dog in a shelter andif you did, it was maybe a great
Pyrenees.
Over the last 10 years, for avariety of reasons, over the
(05:46):
last 10 years, for a variety ofreasons, we've seen a huge
increase in not only the numberof dogs that are needing to be
rehomed, either in the sheltersystem, privately, whatever, but
now we're seeing multitudes ofthese kind of what used to be
considered rare breed dogs.
So the increase is huge.
I actually went on.
There's a giant, I think.
The page is called GreatPyrenees Rehoming page.
They have 53,000 people on thatpage and I went and just on
that one page alone I countedout some stats for a week and
(06:08):
last week there were 56 dogslisted just for rehoming and
these were mostly dogs insomebody's home and you know,
for top common reasons they werelooking to rehome them.
So I think we're seeing anincrease in some ways, from
looking at Lena's article aboutlivestock guardian dogs that
(06:28):
we're seeing an increase insmall farm homesteads having the
need, or thinking they have theneed, to get a livestock
guardian dog, also seeing it asa potential income producing
opportunity.
So breeding these dogs and thennot selling them.
And rescues and shelters aregetting these dogs in by litters
(06:50):
and I don't know if you knowlivestock guardian dogs usually
have large litters, like 12 pluspuppies, so they're showing up
everywhere.
I mean again, in 10 years agogetting a purebred livestock
guardian dog from rescue waslike finding a unicorn, and now
they're a dime, a dozen.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
What do you think the appeal is?
I mean-.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Oh, they're adorable.
Livestock guardian dog puppiesare fluffy, cute, sweet.
So if we're talking aboutpuppies, who doesn't want just
like a giant white, fluffy puppywho is placid?
When we think about breed grouptraits, right, I think that
people think livestock guardiandog breed groups as puppies are
(07:36):
easy because they're observant,they're calm, but that's what
we've brought them to beobserving Like we expect herding
breeds to be kind of chasey andnippy as puppies, we expect
gundog breeds to get excited andbe mouthy, and so people get
these dogs as puppy and they'reeasy, they're placid, they're
(07:58):
sweet and they're just like yeah, man, let's chill, let's look
at things.
Oh yeah, everything's great.
Man, let's chill, let's look atthings.
Oh yeah, everything's great.
But what people aren't as awareof is that because we bred them
to be observant, that's howthey are.
Then we get to social maturityand all those things that
they've observed, suddenlythey're going to be like all
right, I know what to guard nowand I'm going to take care of
(08:18):
this space and be aware of allof this stuff.
So it comes as a shock topeople.
So I think, like I said,there's a huge list of reasons.
I think, again, there's a commonmisconception about how to
raise working dogs, kind of thishands-off option of we throw a
dog in with stock and we expectit to just intrinsically know to
(08:42):
do the right thing.
And these dogs still needguidance, either from an adult
livestock guardian dog or ahuman who's going to say we
don't chase the lambs, we don'teat the chickens, those sort of
things.
So failed working dogs is onepart, and again, because these
dogs are inexpensive, now a lotof people are saying I'd rather
(09:03):
just get rid of the one that ateall the chickens and try again
for a hundred bucks, as opposedto really working with that dog
and teaching them what'sappropriate.
I think with anything there'snature and nurtures, there's
genetics and we never want tofight it.
But we also need to understandthat not every dog who is bred
to be a livestock guardian dog,even if its parents have all of
(09:24):
the perfect traits, is going tohave that drive out of 12
puppies.
Not all of them is going towant to card or want to be out
in the field, and so there's thefailure on that end.
And on the other end of thatthere's failed pet dogs, where
they find themselves in anenvironment that they're not
(09:44):
equipped for and can't handle.
Oftentimes we see that in urbanenvironments, in heavily
populated suburban environments.
I'm not saying that these dogscan't be there.
I mean I have them in suburbia.
But, trust me, we work hard tonormalize the environment and
make affordances and Iunderstand there's a lot of
(10:04):
challenges that come with that.
So failed working dogs, failedpet dogs, again, inadequate
preparation for what these dogsactually are as guardians.
Again, they're easy, lovelypuppies and they hit adolescence
and it seems like people'sheads explode.
All of these behaviors theywere not expected and didn't see
(10:27):
and seem dangerous andproblematic to it.
Suddenly, when you've got ahundred pound adolescent who
decides they're not lettinggrandma in the house Because to
us we love grandma and know herand to them she's a stranger and
some weird old lady trying tocome in the house and so those
things tend to be problematic.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, and so the travesty here is just really not
understanding what we'veselected for in livestock
guardian dogs.
So I'd love to jump more intothat in just a second, but I did
want to give a shout out to DrLena Kaiser's article, which you
mentioned.
It's on aggressivedogcom andit's a great article and gets
into the reasons and some of thestatistics on what we were just
talking about, all thissignificant influx of dogs in
rescue and shelters and all ofthe reasons you just mentioned,
(11:12):
and so let's talk about that.
You know again.
Let's just back up a little bit, in case somebody is new to
livestock guardian dogs.
What are they selected for,what are the breed
characteristics and what aresome of the breeds that
encompass livestock guardiandogs?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, yeah.
So, like the name implieslivestock guardian dog we have
selected them to guard livestockand, with that being said, we
have chosen dogs who have lowerprey drive and we can talk about
what that looks like Protectiveand using ritualized aggression
(11:45):
to deter threats.
And if you're not familiar withthose terms and all of that
stuff, you know they're not brednecessarily to run off and
fight every bear and coyote thatyou know comes across, but
they're going to use barkingbehavior, right, bark, bark,
bark, to let everybody knowthey're there.
Hey, if you come over here andmess with me or my flock, you'll
(12:07):
have something to deal with.
But also that they are largeenough and confident enough to
engage with a threat should theyneed to, but ideally again, for
the safety of everybodyinvolved.
They used kind of escalated,ritualized aggression and upping
their threat level.
You've also bred them to berelatively independent.
(12:30):
Traditionally these dogs wereon hundreds of thousands of
acres with probably a group ofdogs and maybe a shepherd and
that sort of thing.
So they have been bred to beindependent, not stubborn, which
I hear all the time, but to beable to make a decision without
human input.
They're not looking to me tosay, oh hey, mom, should I tell
(12:50):
that coyote over there to pissoff?
They're making that decision inthe moment and what they feel
is right and correct and they'realso determining who their
charges are and everything likethat.
So we have bred thattraditionally is what we have
bred them to do.
So as far as breeds and thingslike that, I tend to think of it
(13:11):
as breed group characteristicsmore so than breed
characteristics per se.
Only because I think that youknow there's so much variability
and you know this right.
And in any breed group of dogsthere are dogs with great
Pyrenees who are welcoming toeverybody and their dogs are
(13:31):
other end of the spectrum whothink everybody's a threat and
you know, kind of is likeGandalf, thou shall not pass,
sort of thing.
So there's variability in allof that.
But overall what we see as faras breed characteristics are you
know they sound negative butthey're what we need Territorial
aggression, right Intoleranceto strange dogs, creatures,
(13:57):
everything like that Intoleranceand oftentimes suspicion of
strangers.
Again, most of this hits atsocial maturity.
As puppies they're verywelcoming and sweet and happy to
meet everybody, but they tendto grow up to be suspicious of
strangers.
We also see any sort ofguarding behavior we see in the
home, sometimes like resourceguarding and those sort of
(14:18):
things.
But we've bred these dogs toguard what they perceive as
their resource, and sometimesthat includes their flock and
all of that sort of thing.
So those are a lot of the breedtraits that we see.
I also think motivation, againwith that independent sort of
thing, doesn't mean they'restubborn, it doesn't mean
they're stupid, but it alsodoesn't mean they're overly
(14:41):
interested in working for foodper se or lots of repetition and
training.
And that can sometimes presenta challenge both for owners and
for people professionals who areworking with these dogs, kind
of understanding what theirmotivation is.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
And at least in the US, we're seeing a lot of great
peers and Maremas, and now we'restarting to see some of the
other livestock guardian breedscoming in.
So can you talk more about them?
Like you know, which breedsencompass this whole umbrella of
livestock guardian dogs, andwhat are more common?
What are we?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
starting to see the kind of traditional five like
five big white fluffy dogs thatwe always saw, like the Tatra,
the Marema, the Pyrenees, theAkbash, and that was four.
I'm missing one and I'm sureI'll think of it later.
So on that end we've gotthey're slightly less stranger,
(15:36):
directed aggression and lesslikely to kind of like leave an
engaged sort of thing.
And then on the other end ofthings we get what we call kind
of sharper temperaments and alittle more athleticism.
In the middle we've gotAnatolian Shepherds.
Those are relatively commonaround here but we're kind of
seeing what we used to considerrare breeds Caucasian of Charka,
central Asian Shepherd.
(15:57):
We're seeing a lot of thesekind of really powerful dogs who
also traditionally tend to theywere livestock guardian dogs
but they were also propertyguardians and things like that
and we're finding that they'remuch less tolerant of typical
life in suburbia and strangersand things like that and, to the
(16:19):
point, heavy, heavy managementis required for safety in a lot
of not all of them, but severalof them.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Have you seen any influx of Kangals yet?
If anybody's been, on Instagramtoo, they can look for those
videos and you can see just howpowerful and large those dogs
are.
Have you seen much of that inthe US?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
So I'm seeing more of that on the West Coast, for
whatever reason over seeing iton the East Coast.
On the East Coast we're seeinga lot of Central Asian Shepherds
and Caucasian of Charkas, andthen on the West Coast we're
seeing that and I don't know.
I'm not quite sure why thatpopulation difference is, but
yeah, we're seeing huge amountsof those breeds in like even LA.
(17:03):
Just recently there was I had aclient who picked up a puppy
from a shelter and that's whatit was so and the whole litter
got surrendered which I thoughtyeah.
Yeah, and these dogs are no jokeand they're big and they're
powerful and they can be.
You know, they can beintimidating.
They were bred to beintimidating, right, and when
(17:23):
you're like, let's walk throughdowntown, la tends to have some
struggles there.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yes, yes.
So let's get into the issues,now that these dogs experience.
You had touched upon some ofthem.
So what we've selected for isto protect the territory,
protect the flock, guard things,without necessarily engaging in
these huge battles, but they'regoing to put on an ominous
presence or a show to protectwhat they're trying to protect.
(17:48):
So what is the?
Obviously we can start toforesee the issues in somebody's
home and somebody that'sgetting a dog as a pet dog and
is supposed to be, you know,laid back and just chilling out
as a puppy.
But then they get into socialmaturity and those ages.
What are the common issues thatwe're going to face?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
So common issues with that.
I did a little survey of justmy own client load last year.
I took in 107 livestockguardian dog clients and
percentage-wise, 25% of thepeople came to me for stranger
directed aggression, so that'sreally the biggest percentage
(18:27):
and other people seeking helpcame for inter household
aggression, reactivity, guardingand barking and the remaining
kind of percentage was some fearand wandering, which is again a
very typical thing aboutlivestock guarding dogs needing
adequate fencing and containmentand everything like that.
(18:48):
But yeah, those are usuallywhat we see presenting the most,
with people needing help withand it being unexpected for them
and kind of coming up at socialmaturity.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And what are some factors that are influencing
this to happen?
So we could say like oh, okay,we can just train this side of
the dog, we just get themsocialized early on enough.
What are you seeing with theproblems with that kind of
mindset?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, I don't think you can train genetics out.
I think that's the biggesttakeaway from that.
I think trying to traingenetics out of a dog seems like
a really frustrating exercisefor the dog, the owner, the
behavior consultant or thetrainer or anything like that.
So, truth be told, we cansocialize them as young dogs,
(19:34):
but they're still going tomature into who they're going to
be.
I usually change it from Idon't need my livestock guardian
dog, who is a pet, to be socialwith everybody.
What I need them to do isunderstand what belongs and what
doesn't, and that I am theirpartner.
I'm going to help themdetermine that, and that's
really the biggest thing that Itry to work together for my
(19:57):
clients and their dogs ishelping them partner together.
If we just let our adolescentlivestock guardian dog choose
what belongs and what doesn't,you may not be pleased with the
results of those choices, right,and so my job is to say here's
what belongs and here's whatdoesn't, and we can get into the
specifics of how we do that andeverything like that.
(20:18):
But I really think thatpartnering with your dog is
helpful and understanding theirintrinsic motivation, right.
I think that a lot of times whenwe see typical training
solutions offered for these dogs, they end up in failure or at
least limited success.
(20:38):
So for them say, withreactivity and discomfort, with
unfamiliar dogs approaching andthings like that, a lot of
traditional people are saying,hey, get your dog's attention,
have them focus on you, let thething passes.
And when we've got a dog whothey're not fearful of things,
they're saying that thingdoesn't belong here and I'd like
(21:00):
to do something about it.
That thing doesn't belong hereand I'd like to do something
about it.
Also, you have to think ifthere's something that you're
worried about and or thinking isa threat, asking our livestock
guardian dog to look away fromit is the hardest thing to do.
So kind of switching for me andmy clients.
I'm like, yeah, look at it,let's look at that thing.
Yep, yes, I see that dog acrossthe street and I see him.
(21:23):
He is not a threat, my friend.
He's going to be there everyday.
He is not a threat to us.
Can we check him out?
Can we keep moving along?
And allowing them to processtheir environment is the most
important thing and, I think,the thing that most clients come
to me not having any experiencewith.
So that's one of the things wetry to do with that.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, it's got me thinking too about.
You know, we talk about this nowquite a bit in the dog training
community.
But you know, think just howmismatched teaching something
like let's go to a group classand we'll teach you how to sit
and we'll teach you how to heal,and like how that doesn't touch
or really address any of theissues that most these guardians
are going to face because ofthe environment and the genetics
(22:07):
that are in play.
And I love that you mentioned,like this sort of cooperative
teamwork between the dog and theperson.
Because LGDs are so independent, right, and that's something we
have to think about.
It's almost like we have togive them guidance in their
independence.
Right, they're automaticallyindependent, they're totally
fine just being on their ownversus some of the other breeds.
(22:29):
So talk more about that, theindependent nature of livestock
guardians, how they're liketotally happy being out and just
laying out in the snow bythemselves all night and not
needing to go inside and becuddling up next to the person.
But how that factors into allof the training and behavior as
well, right.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's an interesting adjustment.
If you're not used to it, Ithink if you come from having
biddable dogs and dogs who I hada Springer Spaniel who, if I
asked him to sit a hundred times, he would have yes, yes, ma'am,
I love you Absolutely.
I just want to make you happy.
(23:05):
I have videos of I don'tremember if you ever met Queen
Margaret.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I did, I did yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
But me asking Queen Margaret to come inside, and my
joke was always like if she hadmiddle fingers she would have
given them to me, and so she wasindependent.
But of course I had to figureout what her motivations
reliable and consistent, and notin a top-down sort of way, but
(23:49):
in a partnership sort of wayI've always looked at yes, I
care for you, yes, I have tomake a lot of the decisions here
, but let's be partners in allof this.
Let's come together and let melook at what you're seeing,
trying to look at it through theeyes of your perception of
reality and everything like thatand help you make sense of it.
(24:10):
So that's always been where Iwanted to come from it with and
how I coach my clients to comefrom it with, and I think you're
right.
Going back to the whole, Ithink everybody does the
research right.
One of the things we talkedabout was people think they do
the research.
I get emails no joke severaltimes a week saying I'm your
(24:31):
client.
I thought I did the researchand then I got this dog and, oh
my goodness, it barks anddoesn't listen to me and doesn't
want to stay home and all ofthe stuff that we've kind of
been talking about, and so Ithink it's important to realize
like we can do all the researchin the world, but it's unless
you talk to somebody who isfamiliar with them.
(24:53):
How a livestock guardian dogpresents itself off property is
very different than how theypresent themselves and how they
act and live on their ownproperty at home.
And again, going back to thatQueen Margaret example, when I
ran Big Fluffy I would bringQueen Margaret everywhere and if
you met her off property shewas giant and beautiful, she was
(25:15):
135 pounds of loveliness, andoff property she was tolerant of
people and strangers and shewas really well-adjusted and
people thought, oh my gosh,they'd always be like I love her
, this is what I want.
She's placid, she's quiet,she's calm and peaceful and all
of this stuff.
(25:35):
And I was like, hey, listen,that's what she is here in this
environment.
If you come to my house, youwill see she is on her own
property.
She will bark like nobody'sbusiness to let God knows who
and what.
Let them know that she is thereand she is a threat to be taken
(25:57):
seriously, right?
And if you came into my house,we have guest protocols for all
livestock guardian dogs.
There are guest protocols forhow they come in, because if not
, margaret may say, oh, you'renot going to come in, and that
manifests as growling, posturing, pushing back and even
low-level stuff, just kind ofcoming and standing in front of
(26:18):
me.
So my job was to say, hey, girl, I don't need you to do that,
I've got this.
Thanks so much.
But she was a very differentdog at home than she was out and
about.
So I think all these people seethese dogs out and about and
think, oh, that's what I want, Ilove that and it's really
important to know what they'relike on property.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, I want to definitely dive into the details
of the differences in how wemight approach the training and
behavior change strategies, butfirst I'm going to take a break
to hear a word from our sponsorsand we'll be right back.
If you're interested in hearingmore about applicable and
immediate steps you can use withyour own dog or in your cases,
(27:03):
I have a subscription seriescalled Help for Dogs with
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on leash, and a bunch more.
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Your support of the show isvery much appreciated and don't
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forget to join me for the fifthannual Aggression and Dogs
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This year's lineup includesmany incredible speakers,
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Head on over toaggressivedogcom and click on
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(28:31):
energetic personality to thegrand reception and cocktail
party, which, by the way, willbe live streamed as well as in
person, and, as usual, you'llfind a wonderful, kind, caring
and supportive community at theconference, both in person and
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All right, we're back here withElizabeth Ingalls and we've been
(29:32):
chatting about LivestarGuardian Dogs and now we're
going to get into sort of thedetails of training and the
differences.
So Elizabeth was talking about,you know, working off property,
the difference between offproperty and on property,
property and kind of a lightbulb went off in my head was
like, okay, maybe we should beworking on some more of these
foundational skills and thesegreetings and things off
property because we're morelikely to see the success and if
(29:54):
that would transition to onproperty.
But I want to hear about likeyou had this greeting ritual you
mentioned like how to you knowif somebody's coming over, uncle
Bob's coming over, what are yougoing to do there?
Like, do you just create aconsistent routine?
Do you use certain cues?
So walk us through that alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Sure.
So shout out to Kim Brophy andher off-duty hack.
That is what I've been usingfor probably a good 15 years now
.
Although the off-duty hack thatshe calls it sounds much nicer,
I actually always refer to itas we don't eat our friends dogs
.
The freedom to practice thebehaviors of rushing to the door
(30:30):
and then again, with livestockguardian dogs, potentially
deciding that that personshouldn't be there, increases
(30:53):
the chances of just kind of someyucky stuff to happen.
Right, depending on the dog, itcould be anything from
over-aroused behaviors that Idon't want practiced.
Right, depending on the dog, itcould be anything from
over-aroused behaviors that Idon't want practiced right
Barking and that sort of thing,all the way up to a dog with
maladaptive guardian stuffbiting, lunging, that sort of
thing.
And so my protocol is I teachmy dog hey, go to your room.
(31:16):
That's easy to put on cue.
I like using a baby gate versusa crate, because I want them to
have the opportunity to movearound, not feel threatened,
everything like that, and sothey know to go to their room.
My guest comes in.
My dogs can bark, they can dowhatever it is they need to or
want to.
I let my guest enter.
(31:37):
There's a lot of socialsignaling going on, I think with
livestock guardian dogs andeven off property.
If I've got one that's worriedabout things, I make sure me, as
the human, that I'm showingaffiliative signs to the
stranger.
Oftentimes I'm like, hey, I'mgoing to rub your shoulder.
I want my dog to know I'mwelcoming this person into my
(31:57):
home.
So, using social signaling, Iwelcome the person into my home.
My livestock guardian dog, orany dog, is able to really
observe that and what this doesis again putting those
predictable patterns in place sothe dog knows what to expect.
They're able to sociallyobserve me.
And for my clients again, myclients are reaching out to me
(32:18):
because there's issues thisallows my clients the ability to
to breathe, to know that ifthey have a dog who's struggling
, that nothing is going tohappen.
We're using an installed gatethat's nice and tall, that the
dog can't push down, that theyknow they can welcome somebody
into their home and nobody'sgoing to get hurt.
The dog isn't going to rushanybody.
(32:39):
The other thing I like to usethis for is the fact that most
people are not that fluent inthese lower level signs of
livestock guardian dogs guardingor being uncomfortable or
anything like that by havingthem behind a gate the owner can
observe the dog in a way thatis safe and easy and really be
(33:03):
able to judge them.
Because it's in the past.
A lot of what people wouldsuggest is have the dog on a
leash, meet them outside andthat can work for some dogs not
saying it doesn't work, but whenthat's happening the owner is
behind the dog.
It's hard to see as much bodylanguage when you're physically
behind a dog and I can't tellyou how many clients come to me
(33:27):
using that method whose dog youknow bit somebody or used you
know an air snap or those sortof things because they weren't
able to see the body languagefrom behind.
So this kind of mitigates allof that and over time it gets
pretty easy.
You've met my dog, phoenix,before.
He was a tough dude as anadolescent and we use this
(33:53):
process.
He knows go to your room, I geta couple of barks, the person
comes in.
The process now is threeminutes max.
I keep it consistent.
Still, I'm not worried abouthim meeting people.
We've done a lot of work.
I can gauge how he feels.
The only people that I usuallydon't have him meet are some
sort of workers, but he's veryclear in his signaling of how
(34:14):
comfortable he is and if he'suncomfortable, he's not coming
out of that gated area to meetmy guests.
There's no need for him to haveto make friends with the solar
people who are trying to sell ussolar panels.
I don't need that, so he staysin there.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I want to unpack this further a little bit because,
typically in our stranger dangercases, right, we've got like
our typical go-to strategieslet's use food, let's use
counter conditioning, let's usetreat and retreat, let's use
something where we're going tohelp this dog feel better about
the stranger.
But in the cases that we'retalking about, we're looking at
dogs that often aren't fearfulof the strangers.
(34:51):
They're just doing their job asa livestock, guardian dog, and
so you're using sort of more ofa process of social learning or
social facilitation, where thedog's like okay, I see my
guardian saying hello and sayingthis person's safe, and you
sometimes don't even necessarilyhave to go to using food or
anything else, it's just the dogneeds to be communicated to
that, hey, this is safe, this isgood.
(35:12):
I'm looking for direction here.
Is this person safe or not, ordo I need to sometimes make my
own decision about if thisperson's safe or not?
But yeah, so can you talk usthrough a little bit of the
differences like that, because Iknow you've worked both types
of cases in a high degree.
So would you say that's prettyaccurate.
Social facilitation is reallythe game changer for livestock
guardian dogs.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I do think so, and that comes with relationship
building and trust.
I have to have a dog who trustsme and that sort of thing.
But I think that because manyof them aren't, I'm going to say
traditionally food motivated,using kind of like the open bar,
closed bar sort of thing, isn'talways going to work for them
because the food isn'tmotivating for them or they
won't eat it.
They're more concerned aboutthe observation of that and
(36:00):
ensuring that it is safe andthat those people are welcome,
and social facilitation betweenthe human and the dog is the
biggest thing I think that wecan do for our livestock
guardian dogs.
And they are smart and theyfigure it out really quickly.
They are looking for subtlecues that everybody's feeling
(36:23):
good.
The other thing let's thinkabout like body language.
Not only are livestock guardiandogs subtle signalers with their
own body language, but we havebred them to be observant of
others with their own bodylanguage.
So it's not just that out inthe field they're physically
looking for a coyote or a wolfor whatever it is.
(36:45):
They're keen observers of theirflock and notice small signals
of maybe feeling nervous oranxious.
Right, they're going to noticethat and then be like all right,
what's going on, what'shappening Right, when they're
noticing their quote, unquote,flocks, signals.
So in that case, if they'renoticing that we're anxious and
(37:06):
all of that stuff and I'm notblaming anybody or anything like
that but they're going tonotice how we feel Are we
comfortable with this scenario?
Are we feeling good about it?
Are we saying like I've gotthis, I've got this.
Yeah, grandma's allowed to behere.
Yep, I know we're not used toher, but she's allowed to be
here.
I'm feeling good, I'm happyshe's here.
That's the biggest socialsignaling that we can give to
(37:26):
them.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Good, I'm happy she's here, that's the biggest social
signaling that we can give tothem.
What do you do for clients thatmaybe are like and we've all
gotten these clients and I don'tblame them either.
I think there's a reasonablerequest for a dog to actually
guard the property but also befriendly to your friends.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
So you'd probably get those requests.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I got a livestock guarding dog because I want them
to bark at strangers and toprotect the property.
But, when Uncle Bob comes over?
I want Uncle Bob to be able tocome over safely.
Do you find that's a realisticgoal?
And it certainly sounds morerealistic, actually, for me,
with dogs that are intuitivelylike we were just describing.
They can catch the socialsignals, they can understand the
communication.
It doesn't have to befood-based or any particular
(38:06):
type of training per se, butit's more the dog.
We're just tapping into thatdog's intuitive nature to
determine who's safe or not.
So what do you say to clientslike that, where they're like, I
want the guarding still to bethere.
I want my dog to protect me ifsomebody does break in.
But what if they also want thefriendliness side?
Do you go back to the same kindof protocol?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
So usually yes, because I think that, like with
everything, it depends on thedog.
I think every dog kind of hasvariances in their tolerance of
sociability, of strangers comingin and out of the house and
everything like that.
So I found some dogs are justnot going to be tolerant of
(38:50):
somebody just walking into thehome, which is why we put these
kind of protocols in place sothey know what to expect.
Other dogs who seem maybe alittle more social and can be
tolerant, again, we're puttingspecific protocols in place
saying if this happens and thishappens and this happens, this
is okay.
Meaning again, I'll go back tomy own dogs.
(39:12):
If you walk in a specific doorin my house, that's the stranger
door.
If you walk in a different doorin my house, that's the we know
where you're coming from door.
And if you come and even if I'mintroducing somebody new and
it's a pet sitter and we gothrough it several times of I'm
home, they come in the door, wedo all the things and a few
different times the pet sitterwill come on their own and we
(39:35):
really introduce it of this dooris okay, this door, they know
strangers are coming in thatdoor thing that we can do.
But I also think settingrealistic client expectations,
saying that if you have aguardian breed who is adequately
territorial aggression, we'regoing to see them.
You're not going to havesomebody walk in the backyard
(39:58):
and I think being honest aboutthat is really important.
And again I'll go back to myown stuff.
You're not going to walk in mybackyard without my dogs having
a really intense reaction and Ithink it's okay to accept that.
It doesn't mean my dogs aregoing to maul anybody.
I don't want to say that.
But they're going to comerunning and they're going to
(40:19):
come barking and the expectationof that is okay.
I, as their owner, make surethat that gate doesn't have
access to a stranger walking inso they're not bamboozled and
all of that sort of thing.
But I think setting realisticclient expectations is good.
I also think that every dog isan individual.
(40:41):
So, kind of circling backaround, I still think you have
to set up predictable protocolsfor your dog.
Even if you want Uncle Bob tocome over, how is that going to
happen?
And is he coming overunattended?
Is he coming over and we do ourguest protocol?
And if you really need a dogwho's going to be welcoming to
all people.
(41:01):
I would suggest potentiallyadopting an older livestock
guardian dog who has been infoster care and has shown
themselves to be reallycomfortable with that.
Otherwise, it's a crapshoot,right?
If you get a puppy we don'tknow.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Get a Cavalier Kingchild Spaniel.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, you know, get a Springer
Spaniel, right, Like my Spanielwould have been like, oh my God
, hi, hi, hi.
Mike, oh my goodness, hello,here's my treat jar.
If you just want to get me oneof those, we'd be happy, right.
And so I think that I thinksetting those realistic
expectations is really, reallyimportant.
And we had talked to kind ofabout that whole gentle giant
(41:43):
myth for livestock guardian dogsand, and so I think that
there's this myth out there thatthese guys are oh, they're
gentle giants, right, and we seethese lovely videos of them
just laying on the ground andbaby goats are crawling all over
them and it's really cute.
I love that stuff too and insome ways they are gentle giants
(42:05):
, unless they're not, or untilthey're not, they're gentle
giants with what they considerbelongs, and I think that's the
biggest thing what belongs andwhat doesn't.
And how do we teach ourlivestock guardian dog what does
belong and what doesn't?
And this goes even fromfamiliar species, right, there's
(42:30):
our inner circle of dogs thatwe live with.
They belong, right, and usuallya livestock herding dog is
pretty tolerant of them.
Or cats, right, we've got ourcats at home.
We are tolerant of that becausethey've been introduced in the
what belongs arena but perhapsoutside of that unfamiliar dogs
don't belong and they're athreat to be dealt with.
Unfamiliar cats don't belongand they're a threat to be dealt
(42:53):
with.
My own dog I fostered kittens.
They belong, they're in thehouse We've introduced them.
He's like, oh my hi kitty rightOut and about.
Those cats don't belong in hismind and he chases them.
He's.
You know he's never heard a cator I would never let him or
anything like that.
But that really scares ownersif they're not familiar with
(43:17):
that.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
It's so interesting because everything you're
talking about, for whateverreason, the algorithms on social
media are feeding me a wholebunch of livestock guardian
videos, and a lot of them areshowing just how gentle these
dogs are to like newborn youknow animals on property, or
children or kittens, and it's sointeresting that there's again
(43:40):
so intuitive about knowing whobelongs and who doesn't.
I love that you framed it thatway.
That's actually a really greatway to put things and how they
might perceive their world.
So can we kind of lean towardslike for maybe, people using
livestock guardian dogs more asutility and what your
experiences are there whenthey're getting these dogs as
(44:00):
puppies?
Are they doing much training inair quotes per se for the dogs
with the human interactions, oror do they let the current
livestock guardian dogs showthem the ropes?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Ooh, man, you're opening a can of worms there.
If you want to get into aninternet fight.
You talk about how you shouldraise your livestock guardian
dog as a working dog.
So a lot of traditional methodsin the past have been put the
dog out there, their instinct isgoing to take over and
(44:32):
everything like that, and withsome dogs it does.
A lot of people who uselivestock guardian dogs as
working dogs do really well whenthey have an appropriate an
adult dog to.
Again, that social signalingthing is huge right so to model
their behavior after.
But the most successful workingdogs I see have adult livestock
(44:56):
guardian dogs, if possible, tokind of model after, as well as
human intervention andobservation.
Again, these dogs are stillpuppies, these dogs are still
adolescents.
They're often going to makepoor choices.
Adolescents at large make poorchoices, whether you're a human
or a dog or whatever right, andso they need humans to guide
(45:20):
them and to prevent behaviorsthat we don't want to see more
of.
The whole hands-off approachthing that had been really
really common for a while isstarting to kind of shift,
because people are understandingtoo that if you throw a dog in
a field, right, and it nevergoes in a car.
It never has to be on a leash,it has never been handled.
(45:42):
And then anything happens.
Life happens, the dog needs tobe seen by a vet, a national
emergency happens and we need toput it in the car, a big, huge
freeze comes through and yes,they're big, yes, they're fluffy
, they can tolerate all sorts ofweather, but not all of it, and
they need to come inside forthe night.
Some of these things have shownthemselves to be very traumatic
for these dogs, or the farmcells, right.
(46:05):
This dog has never been handledby a human, has never even seen
what a house is like, has neverseen a leash, has never been a
vet, and then they go intorescue and it absolutely rocks
their world.
So I think we're not doinglivestock guarding working dogs
any favors if at least we don'tintroduce them to a little bit
of handling, a little bit of carstuff, a little bit of leash
(46:29):
work.
I don't need them to like walkin a heel, right, but I want
them to know sometimes I mightput a leash on you, it is not
the end of the world for you.
And so we're seeing a shift inthat and I think that's really,
really helpful and important andmakes for dogs that have more
resiliency.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
I love it.
I love everything you're sayingthere, because it also kind of
brings me to my next question,which is you know, we talk about
all the time meeting dogs'needs and what they've been
selected for.
Now let's say somebody goes outand gets that gentle giant that
they want, what are things theycan do to meet those needs?
Because you know, with likedogs that like to sniff, we can
(47:10):
get like a beagle, allow themthe opportunity to sniff.
Or we've got a retriever, we'vegot you know things to objects
to retrieve.
But what do we do for alivestock guarding dog?
We can't just be like, okay, goguard, satisfy your needs, go
guard the property.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
What do you suggest for pet guardian type of
environments?
The distance, but just theability to not have your
property be the only thing theyhave, because oftentimes then
they become much more protectiveof it and everything like that.
And so I want to say like, hey,go get off property, go
somewhere that is not superpopular and get a long line, let
(48:02):
them do their thing.
I call them hangouts.
Go and hang out.
Let your dog just hang out andobserve the world, and that is
often the most enriching thingthat we can do for them.
Hang out, eat some snacks.
All of my own personal dogshave always loved that, and that
has been game changing for myclients to realize we don't have
to walk three miles a day.
(48:23):
I don't need you to walk at aperfect heel, let's just go here
, let's sniff around, let's bepresent, let's observe the world
.
This can also be helpful withnormalizing the environment too,
saying oh yeah, see, all thestuff we see at home is out here
too and it's not that bad right, they're not a threat.
Kids on bikes or other dogs andall of that stuff.
(48:45):
So this kind of helps with thatSmall little things I found to
help for dogs who do like toguard sounds weird a bird feeder
.
So many of my own dogs and manyclient dogs have decided bird
feeders are cool.
They like the birds.
They don't really chase them.
Also they're not really gonnaget them because those tiny
little birds are super fast.
(49:05):
But I have multiple pictures ofmy client dogs hanging out near
a bird feeder and then barkingat you know any hawk or squirrel
who may dare come and eitherthreaten their birds or threaten
their birds food for thesquirrels and most of them they
get enormous satisfaction fromthat.
So there's small little thingsthat we can kind of do to meet
(49:28):
those guarding needs andeverything like that.
The other thing is the barkingthing.
Right, I think I'm never goingto train a livestock guardian
dog not to bark.
That's not fair for the dog,but I also don't want my
neighbor to hate me, so helpingthis dog normalize the
environment of what is a threatto bark at, what should I be
(49:50):
barking at and what is normalhere For my own dog?
I can't have him barking at.
We live in a relatively busysuburban area.
We have a big fence yard.
It's against a field, so wedon't have a lot of stuff
happening back there, but I havea lot of foot traffic and
things like that, and so for himwe worked on, you know,
(50:10):
checking life out, realizing theoil man wasn't a threat, and we
did pair that with food right,it usually was.
I look at the thing, maybe Iget a snack.
Everything feels cool.
And I told my dog, every timethat this black cat came and
peed on my hydrangeas I was like, oh, there's the bad kitty, and
he'd be like bark, bark, bark,bark, bark.
(50:31):
And so that's his job.
Now he protects my hydrangeasfrom getting peed on by the
black cat in our neighborhoodwho, again, I would never let
him hurt this cat.
He is behind a fence or in thehouse or whatever, but he takes
that job really seriously.
I want to give him an outlet tosay, yeah, nice work, my friend
, thank you for keeping thosesafe.
So I think there's ways to giveour dogs affordances in some
(50:54):
creative ways that maybe mostpeople don't think of.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
And we've talked a lot about the different
characteristics and really justhow different livestock guarding
dogs can be from a lot of theother types of or breeds we work
with.
But if you had like one takehome message in terms of the
secret to getting into alivestock guardian dog's brain,
in terms of training, let's say,for instance, good examples.
You know, a joke we make islike how do you get a livestock
(51:21):
guardian dog to recall right?
They're one of the dogs thatI've worked with that are much
less apt to decide if they wantto come when called you know,
and so if you had to like, startlooking at, all right, what am
I going to do to motivate mostlivestock guardian dogs and get
them to start working with youand get that team building going
on?
What would that look like?
What would it be for you?
Speaker 2 (51:41):
That's a good question.
Let's see.
I'm going to say, actually Ithink it's using my asks wisely.
I'm not going to ask mylivestock guardian dog to do a
bunch of stuff that doesn'tmatter if that makes sense.
And so I'm going to be wiseabout what I ask them to do and
(52:05):
reinforce it in a way that feelsreinforcing to them right.
I think you can build, you know, the desirable food drive.
Again, you're not getting aspaniel or anybody else like
that, but my guys can do somehiking, but we have worked hard
on it and it has taken years toget there.
(52:27):
So you know, we kind ofpractice a lot of things.
Long lines are your best friendand, for recall, with livestock
guardian dogs and some of themmay, you may never drop that
long line, depending on the dog,right.
But I think that too often weask our dogs for arbitrary
things.
And with Livestock Guardiandogs I want to say here's what
(52:48):
I'm asking.
I'm really consistent in it.
I'm going to pay you inwhatever way that you deem
worthwhile, and it's not goingto be all the time, it's not
going to be just for the heck ofit.
I'm not just asking for a sitfor every single thing.
So I think that for me it'susing what I ask of my dogs
(53:08):
pretty wisely so that I do getcooperation, not compliance
cooperation.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
So Brilliant way to wrap up the episode.
But I do want to give listenersa chance to figure out where
can they find more about you andwhat are you up to next.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
Oh yeah, so you can check out my website, which is
elizabethinglescom.
I run a training group onFacebook.
I want to say we have likealmost 10,000 people, if I
remember it's called GreatPyrenees Training.
That Works, lena helps me withit and we offer free advice.
So I'm hoping to be offeringsome group online livestock
(53:47):
guardian training and maybe Iwant to say living with
livestock guardians versustraining livestock guardians.
So I do that.
I also offer I've been doing alot of trainer to trainer
consults lately, which I thinkhave been helpful for any
trainers who aren't familiarwith livestock guardian dogs.
They want to chat about breedtraits and case studies and
(54:11):
things like that.
Again, I could talk about thisstuff all day long.
So I've been doing a lot ofthat and mostly you can find me
online.
Come and find me on my website,shoot me an email.
But mostly I'm working withhelping people live with their
livestock guardian dogs and notfight their nature but work with
(54:32):
it and understand them better.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Excellent, Elizabeth.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
This has been a really greatpleasure to talk to you and I
hope to see you again in thefuture.
Speaker 2 (54:41):
All right.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
I'm really happy we were able to do an episode on
livestock guardian dogs andfocus on their unique needs and
considerations before bringingone home.
Elizabeth truly has a passionfor these big, fluffy dogs and
I'm excited to hear more fromher in the future.
And don't forget to head onover to aggressivedogcom for
more information about helpingdogs with aggression, From the
(55:05):
Aggression in Dogs Master Courseto webinars from world-renowned
experts and even an annualconference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression and dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource
(55:26):
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening and, asalways, stay well, my friends.
You.
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