Microbiomes and Behavior with Sarita Pellowe

What if you could unlock the secrets of your dog's behavior through their gut? In our latest episode, we welcome Sarita Pellowe, an esteemed dog trainer and researcher, to guide us through the fascinating world of the gut microbiome and its profound impact on canine behavior. Sarita demystifies the vast and diverse ecosystem residing in your dog's gut, explaining how these microorganisms can shape health and behavior. You'll be amazed at the parallels between human and dog gut microbiomes and what this could mean for advancements in mental health research for both species!

About Sarita:
"I’m a trainer/behaviour consultant and grad student based in St John’s, Newfoundland. Proud human to Denzel (12 yo Boston terrier mix) and Leeloo (6 yo Rottweiler), and owned/ruled by our 6 year old kitty, Brookie. Originally from Blackpool, UK, I moved to Newfoundland in 2012 to pursue my first Masters degree in fish cardiovascular physiology after completing my B.Sc. in Zoology at the University of Manchester. I met Denzel in 2012, and as my problem child we set out on our training journey together. In 2017 I gained my CPDT-KA, then in 2018 I launched East Coast Canine Dog Training and gained my CBCC-KA. I returned to school in the height of the pandemic and joined the Canine Research Unit at Memorial University, where I have been researching the links between gut microbiome composition and anxiety/aggression in dogs. At East Coast Canine, I offer both private and group training and regularly volunteer at our local SPCA providing behaviour assessments and training for our rescues. In my spare time you’ll typically find me out fishing at the cabin, hiking the beautiful and rugged East Coast trails of Newfoundland, or attending agility/rally classes with Leeloo at our local sports club."

https://www.eastcoastcanine.ca/

Limited time offer! The Aggression in Dogs Master Course and Expert Webinar Bundle! Only 50 will be made available.
https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/bundles/the-aggression-in-dogs-master-course-and-expert-webinar-bundle-2024

Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com

Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference

Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes

Check out all of our webinars, courses, and educational content here:
Webinars, courses, and more!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
We've talked briefly about microbiomes and behavior a
couple times on this podcastand since I find the potential
connection so interesting, Iknew I had to bring in a guest
that is doing research on thisvery topic.
Sarita Palau owns East CoastCanine Dog Training, based in
Newfoundland, and she joins mefor this episode where I get to
pick her brain about all thingsgut biomes and behavior and

(00:31):
you'll hear some reallyinteresting insights and
connections.
She has a master's in scienceand is currently enrolled in her
second master's degree atMemorial University, this time
studying under the Cognitive andBehavioral Ecology program,
with her research investigatingthe links between gut microbiota
and anxiety and aggression indogs.
Sarita holds a CPDT-KA, aCBCC-KA, and is currently
working towards fulfilling therequirements to become an

(00:53):
associate certified animalbehaviorist with the Animal
Behavior Society.
And if you are enjoying thebitey end of the dog, you can
support the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in

(01:13):
Scottsdale, arizona, with bothin-person and online options.
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training

(01:33):
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
in dogs.
Hey guys, welcome back to theBitey Under the Dog.
I am really excited for thisweek because we're going to be
diving into a topic that I don'tknow much about but I really
want to learn a lot more about,and it's something that is new

(01:56):
kind of new to the dog trainingcommunity, which is the gut
biomes and behavior.
And this week I have SaritaPello, who is joining us and has
done a lot of research actuallyon this topic and is a dog
trainer.
So welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Thank you for having me.
I'm really excited to be hereto talk to you today.
This is pretty huge for me.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
I'm so excited for you to be here, so I would love
to first, for my sake and I'msure a lot of the listeners
really dive into just the basicsof this first, so we can get a
kind of foundationalunderstanding.
So how would you define biomesor gut biomes?
What are they and what aretheir function?

Speaker 2 (02:36):
So the gut microbiome in particular is a community of
organisms living within themammalian gut.
Some people consider it to be asuper organ, and some of the
facts and figures around thesheer size of the gut microbiome
itself are absolutelyoutstanding.
I've seen comments on the humangut microbiome that the content

(03:00):
within there, all of theseorganisms, can weigh up to two
kilograms in an adult humanbeing.
So it's an amazing amount oflife fostered there inside our
gastrointestinal tracts.
Typically, the gut microbiomeitself is made up of upwards of
millions of organisms we'relooking likely in the billions

(03:21):
and trillions kind of a level ofnumbers and the communities
made up it's not just bacteriaand there's also archaea, which
are single-celled organisms,fungi and viruses as well.
And when we talk about the gutmicrobiome in our research, we
are specifically referring tothe bacteria that are in there.

(03:42):
For the most part, thesebacteria have a pretty symbiotic
relationship with the host, butthere are also problematic
bacteria in there.
They can start to cause issueswith gastrointestinal disease
and even those bacteria that wetypically consider to be
beneficial.
If things go out of line interms of the composition, if

(04:02):
we're getting too many of thosebacteria, then we can start to
see problems in terms of healthand disease.
So it's a really complex system.
There's a lot of back and forthbetween the gut microbiome and
the host in terms of not justhealth, but we're seeing a lot
more evidence for behavior nowas well and those impacts.
They can be short term and theycan be longterm as well.

(04:23):
So we can see short-termeffects in terms of, say,
diarrhea, gastric upset.
We see big shifts in thecomposition of the gut
microbiome then, but there'salso indications that specific
bacteria might actually beindicative of an increased risk
for certain types of cancer andmental health disorders as well.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
That's fascinating, and so a lot of the research now
and it seems like everybody'stalking about this, like we're
talking you know AndrewHuberman's got people on his
podcast talking about it.
So a lot of studies in humans,but what about dogs or animals?
For that matter, it's not quiteas much research, is that
correct?

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, definitely.
So there is a big focus inhumans because, you know, mental
health is the forefront ofeverybody's minds right now, and
especially since the pandemic.
My generation in particular arebecoming increasingly aware of
taking care of our mental health.
In terms of the gut microbiomeitself, the entire field, even
in the well-studied organisms soorganisms humans, in the

(05:26):
well-studied organisms soorganisms humans.
It's only really been withinthe last 15 or 20 years or so
that we've seen big advances inthe field, and a lot of that is
because of the emergingtechnology that we have.
We actually have the computingpower now to deal with these
enormous data sets that we'regetting from the genetic
information within the gutmicrobiome, and we also have the
databases, too, to be able toaccurately identify the bacteria

(05:49):
that we're seeing, and even now, day after day, there's new
bacteria being identifiedconstantly, not just in humans,
but in dogs, and other mammalianmodels too, like mice and pigs,
are also a big area for study.
One of the great things aboutdogs, though, is we're finding
more and more that the dog gutmicrobiome is probably, out of

(06:10):
all of these mammalian models,the most similar to the human
gut microbiome, and that'sinteresting for me, because we
do share so much of ourenvironment with dogs that it
does kind of stand to reasonthat would be some similarities,
given how many environmentalfactors impact the shape of our
gut.
And obviously we're a verydifferent species we have

(06:31):
different dietary requirements,different physiological
processes and lifestyles butsharing such close similarities
it makes dogs are reallyinteresting species to study,
especially given that so many ofthe responses of the gut are so
similar between us.
I think it's absolutelyfascinating and I'm so excited

(06:52):
not just excited to have beenable to do it myself, but how
the canine gut microbiome fieldis starting to grow now too.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
What got you into that?
So you kind of started yourresearch project, which we'll
dive into more, but what kind ofgot you going to do?
Okay, there's this relationshipbetween behavior and the biome.
Was it something you saw in thehuman research or is it
something you were interested inanimal research?

Speaker 2 (07:14):
So I actually can't take credit for that one,
because this project was not myidea.
The job was essentially postedby our local university and at
the time I was itching forsomething to do.
It was late 2020.
I had recently got my permanentresidency here in Canada as
well, and there was a lot ofinsecurity there after the
pandemic.

(07:34):
We didn't know if we were goingto return to life as normal.
I wasn't sure if my businesswas going to thrive or not after
everything that we'd beenthrough.
So I saw this opportunity to dothe master's and I just thought
you know what, why not?
Like now is as good a time asany.
I can go back to school for acouple of years and in my mind,
a big part of that drivingfactor was to then be able to

(07:56):
use this master's thesis as away to gain my ACAB, the
Associate Certified AppliedAnimal Behaviorist designation
from the Animal Behavior Society.
So it just seemed like I don'tknow the stars aligned in this
project coming up, so it wasactually proposed by my three
supervisors at MemorialUniversity.
Here Dr Carolyn Walsh is thehead of our canine research unit

(08:20):
.
Carolyn's history is in thebehavior side of things.
Carolyn's history is in thebehavior side of things.
We also had Dr Don Bignall,who's our microbiologist, and
then Lourdes Pena-Castillo isour computer sciences wizard.
She's literally the smartestperson I know.
The things that she can do withdata analysis are just unreal.
So they are all scientists hereat the university and they're

(08:44):
all big dog lovers as well.
And there had been a paper hadrecently come out, the mondo
paper, which I believe youcovered previously, probably a
couple of years back now, onyour podcast.
That paper had just come out.
It was a wonderful paper but itwas based in shelter animals.
So there was sort of a questionthere of okay, so if we know

(09:06):
that there's a bi-directionalrelationship between the gut
microbiome and behavior andwe're looking at dogs who are in
a potentially stressfulenvironment, how is that going
to impact not only the gutmicrobiome composition but the
behavioral assessment thatthey're doing as well?
So what my supervisors proposedwe do was take that study, learn

(09:27):
from what they had found andrepeat it in a population of
dogs who were living in a morestable environment.
So we were aiming for pet dogswho had adult pet dogs in the
local area who had moreconsistent living arrangements,
so they've stayed in the samehome with the same number of
animals, for we went for overthree months to be conservative

(09:49):
and had been eating a consistentdiet as well.
And then we went for a slightlybroader scope of behavioral
assessment rather than doingin-person which at the time was
going to be quite challengingwith COVID.
It was hard enough for us toget the university to let me go
to people's doorsteps and pickup their fecal samples, let
alone doing in-person behaviorassessments.

(10:11):
So we opted to use the CBARCand that helps us to get sort of
quite a wide profile from a lotof docs.
I think we had initially 494participants took our first
questionnaire and out of thosearound 235 went on to do the
C-BARC.
So it gave us a nice littlepopulation to then be able to

(10:32):
start selecting people that wecould invite for the more
in-depth study of actuallytaking those samples from the
dogs.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
I imagine it was, yeah, during a pandemic.
You know, let me go pick upsome.
Like, with the whole phobia ofgerms at the time, let me go
pick up some more germs to bringback.
I'm sure that was a little bitof a hurdle.
So you mentioned Seabark, youknow, which is a really robust
questionnaire that's used in alot of studies.
And then you mentioned you werelooking for dogs that were at

(11:00):
least in the home for threemonths, and I think you
mentioned, or we had talkedearlier too, about the age of
the dogs being a certain age,two to seven.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (11:09):
That's right yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, okay.
And why was that?
Why was that particularnarrower group of dogs?

Speaker 2 (11:15):
So we wanted to ensure that essentially, the gut
microbiome had settled to itsfinal form in those dogs.
So what happens?
As far as we know from thelimited information we have
about the development of thecanine gut microbiome, it's
rapidly developing from birththrough to, we think, about a
year old and then once that dogreaches adulthood, the core

(11:39):
composition of the gutmicrobiome then stays relatively
stable.
So we can cause shifts in thegut microbiome by adjusting diet
.
If we supplement withprobiotics, if we use
antibiotics, we see a big shiftthere too.
But essentially what happensafter you stop adding in
extraneous factors likeprobiotics?

(12:02):
The gut will then go back andsettle to what is considered
normal for that individual dog.
So we wanted to avoid riskinglooking at a little snapshot in
time with that fecal sample in adog who was younger and that
gut microbiome still developing.
So by setting our age limitfrom two to seven years old, we

(12:23):
are pretty safe in the knowledgethat that is the core
population for this particulardog and they're not on the older
end of the spectrum where wemight start running into
age-related changes orpotentially underlying disease
associated with age that mightalso impact the gut microbiome.
I guess one of the things thatwe really need to focus on when

(12:44):
we're doing gut microbiomeresearch is we're trying to
limit as much variability aspossible, because behavior in
the real world is messy enough.
There are so many factors thatcontribute to the development of
behavioral issues in dogs, andthen we're looking at an equally
complex system arguably morecomplex in terms of the gut
microbiome.
So we want to make sure thatwhen we get our data at the end

(13:07):
of the study, that we haveaccounted for as many potential
variables as possible.
Age was just one of them, butwe also looked at the dog's diet
.
We looked at their history withusing dewormers, with
probiotics and even their bodycondition score too.
So when you see the posters inyour vet clinic of the
underweight, average andoverweight dogs, we wanted to

(13:30):
try and match them as closely aswe could there to ensure, when
we come out the end, the mainthing that separates two dogs
when we're looking at them istheir behavioral score from
CBARC, rather than any of theseenvironmental factors.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
Got it.
So you have these wonderfuladvisors.
They tell you to take on thisproject, this research project.
You go out, you start gettingthese poop samples and analyzing
them, and then you have theCBARC questionnaires as well, so
you have that data coming in.
What did you start looking for?
So let's get into like whatkind of questions on the CBARC
were really focused for thisparticular study and then we can

(14:09):
talk about.
You know what we're looking inthe biomes, but so what kind of
information were you?

Speaker 2 (14:12):
going for and actually you should start with
what was the kind of finalsample size for this.
So we were hoping to get 50samples, 50 fecal samples, from
this population of dogs.
And this is essentially why weneeded such a large response to
the questionnaires in the firstplace is because every time we
cut our population down,accounting for all of these
variables, that cohort just gotsmaller and smaller and smaller

(14:34):
and we ended up with, I think itwas only around 72 dogs out of
that entire population thatactually met the criteria to be
able to go on to the fecalsampling section, met the
criteria to be able to go on tothe fecal sampling section.
So, with those 72 dogs,basically what we did and the
reason why we use Seabirck waswe wanted to decide okay, out of
this population that we have,who are about as controlled as a

(14:55):
community sample can be, out ofthese dogs here, who's the most
aggressive and who's the leastaggressive, who shows the
highest signs of anxiety, whoshows the lowest.
So essentially, how we useCBARC in this particular study
is we took the aggressionsubscales, we used
stranger-directed fear,dog-directed fear and non-social

(15:16):
fear For anxiety.
We also included theseparation-related issues as
well.
So we created an average, soit's just sort of an index of
how much of a scaredy cat areyou and when you take the
Seaburk you can kind of look atit as a sense of if you get a
score of zero, this is not ananxious dog, and then as you go

(15:36):
up we're increasing the severityof it.
So we did capture quite a fewdogs who were on the higher end
of the spectrum, scoring thethrees and the fours, the more
severe aggression and anxietycases.
But the majority of ourcommunity sample was down at the
lower end, around the zeros,which is kind of nice.
When getting onto the results,to just keep in mind that these

(15:58):
are pet dogs and they're prettynormal.
And even though they are normal, we're still seeing a very
clear pattern in terms of thegut microbiome and the
particular bacteria that wereassociated with behavioral
issues.
We didn't need a drasticallypolarized population of heavily
anxious and heavily aggressivedogs versus quote unquote normal

(16:20):
ones.
Even in such a pet basiccommunity we still saw results.
So that's probably one of themore exciting aspects of this
research for us is, I thinkwe've shown some pretty good
evidence that there is a linkthere.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Can I ask you a little bit more about the CBAR
questions in regards to how arepeople identifying a dog that's
aggressive, air quotes there oranxious or showing anxiety?
Were there any particularmeasures or body language or
behaviors that would classifythem?

Speaker 2 (16:51):
So it is owner reported.
So to a certain extent it isopen to interpretation and the
owner's perception of how severea response is.
So as they go through thequestionnaire, there's 100
questions and you're presentedwith various situations.
How does your dog respond whenthey see an unfamiliar person?
When they see an unfamiliar dogFor inside the home?

(17:13):
There's questions like whenyour dog is approached by a
familiar dog or when they'reapproached by a person and
they've got a bone or a toy ortheir food.
So the owners have to reportthat in terms of severity.
And there are loose examplesthere in the descriptions for
sea bark where they say you knowzero is no reaction, no

(17:33):
concerns, and as they go up theydo state you know lunging and
barking as suggestions fortypical behaviors that you may
see.
But for the most part you'rereporting it on what we call a
Likert scale.
So from zero of no concern upto four for most concerned.
And you know CBARC has its prosand cons for sure, and I know

(17:57):
it has.
There are critics out there interms of questioning the
validity sometimes of thequestionnaire, questioning the
validity sometimes of thequestionnaire For us.
I mean we were able to collecta large amount of behavioral
data in our questionnaire, inthis project itself, from doing
it with my own dogs.
I mean recently had apresentation where I showed my

(18:19):
dog Denzel, who is a very spicylittle character.
He's extremely dog aggressiveand I had my own concerns too
when we first started readingabout Seabark and deciding if
we're going to use it.
So I did it for all three of mydogs at the time and I was
pleasantly surprised with howaccurate the summary of my dogs

(18:41):
was.
I'm able to see.
You know I'm a consultant butI'm also a scientist.
So I have a healthy level ofskepticism when it comes to the
methods that we're going to use,and I do genuinely think that
it accurately reflected my dog'spersonal profile.
And we've got to keep in mindtoo that you know, no one
approach is going to beabsolutely perfect.

(19:03):
We're going for volume and beingable to capture a large amount
of data and essentially usebehavioral score as a proxy.
We don't necessarily need toknow the specifics of the
behaviors that your dog shows,when they're behaving
aggressively or when they're inthe pits of anxiety and they're
in the pits of anxiety but wedid need it to be able to

(19:24):
establish this is our lessanxious group.
This is our more anxious group,I think, when you compare it to
the in-person behavioralassessments.
Absolutely we'd love to be ableto validate for every single
dog that the C-BARC responseswere absolutely accurate.
But then you get into the issueof time and resources, of being
able to dedicate that to largersample sizes as well.

(19:47):
Often you've got to take whatyou can use, the resources that
you can use, and just be honestand transparent about the
take-home messages that you'regetting from that questionnaire.
I don't think that CBARC isabsolutely perfect, but I do
think that it's a wonderful toolwhen it's understood and used
properly.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
I agree.
I think it's been used in somany different studies and I
think the information that we'regetting from those studies is
very helpful, so I think the seabark has been a wonderful tool
in academia and research and sookay.
So now, what did you discover?
So you get these samples,you've got the questions, you
have identified the dogs thatmight be anxious or aggressive
and you start to analyze thatpoop and you spit it into the

(20:30):
supercomputer.
You can tell us more about that?
And what were the results?
What did you discover?

Speaker 2 (20:36):
So we ran a multitude of different sort of approaches
for this, because one of thebig sort of caveats we've got
microbiome research at themoment is because it's such a
rapidly developing area andtechnologies are developing all
of the time.
There is a lot of variabilitybetween studies and between
methods.
So we use multiple differentapproaches to look at the

(20:59):
differences between our higheranxiety, lower anxiety and
higher aggression dogs andessentially, what we wanted to
see is, when we use thesedifferent methodologies, do we
have the same bacteria beingidentified consistently, even
though we have different methodsof analyzing it?
So what we initially found wasa little bit sad on my part as a

(21:20):
young scientist.
You really want to have thesignificant results.
You want those really lowp-values and the sexy graphs
coming out at the end of it.
And what we found when welooked at just the relative
abundance of the bacteria in ourcohort is that there really
wasn't a big difference in thecore populations of bacteria
when we separated them out bybehavioral group and, while it's

(21:44):
somewhat disappointing for me,seeing that, it does actually
confirm that the dogs that wehad within our study are just
perfectly physically healthydogs and, based on the other
literature that's been published.
There was a 2020 paper byElizabeth Amando and then
another in 2019 by NicoleKirchhoff by Elizabeth Amando

(22:07):
and then another in 2019 byNicole Kirchhoff.
They both said that anydifferences that we see within
the gut microbiome are going tobe quite nuanced and subtle
differences, likelyrelationships between a couple
of subdominant bacteria.
So not the main population, butthese small, small, subtle
changes.
And when we started diggingdeeper with the more in-depth
analyses that we did, weactually started to have one

(22:28):
bacteria that kept gettingidentified again and again
across these analyses.
And what's interesting is well,I wish this was anxiousdogcom
rather than aggressivedogcombecause truly, for aggression,
we really didn't see that manydifferences between the two
populations.
But when we split the dogs byanxiety group, we saw one

(22:50):
bacteria at the genus level justgetting identified over and
over again.
That bacteria's name is Blautiaand it's a relatively newly
identified bacteria that hassort of divergent evidence in
the literature for what thatbacteria's role is.
There's little that we knowabout it in dogs, but when it's

(23:12):
been studied in humans and alsoin mice, I believe as well.
Some state that this genus hasprobiotic and protective effects
, that it's a great bacteriathat we want to keep around, has
probiotic and protectiveeffects that it's a great
bacteria that we want to keeparound.
But then others have indicatedthat it might also be indicative
of an increased risk of breastcancer and it's also been
associated with autism spectrumdisorder in humans as well.

(23:33):
So what we have to sort ofthink about there is well, it's
really exciting that we had areally high level of accuracy
within our mathematical modelshere of essentially our analysis
.
Cell bowel, it was called, wasable to predict whether or not a
dog was in the higher anxietyor lower anxiety group with

(23:54):
around 85% accuracy, justlooking at the specific
relationship between our littlefriend Blautia and two other
bacteria.
Those are Salospiraceae andNegativicutes.
So to have 85% accuracy from 48perfectly average pet dogs was

(24:15):
a pretty astonishing finding forus that that's actually really
convincing.
Obviously we'd love to have amuch higher accuracy for these
models and I think that thatmight be possible if we start to
go on and target more clinicaldogs, so dogs who really they're
all clustered up around thethrees and fours on those

(24:35):
Seabark scales.
I think if we can capture thosemore intense, the more
problematic behaviors, then wemight then start to build more
evidence and figure out exactlywhat's going on with this
bacteria in these anxious dogs?

Speaker 1 (24:50):
So the question that comes to mind is sort of the
chicken and egg argument orconundrum, you know.
So do we see in these anxiousdogs which is amazing that you
found that common flautia inthese dogs in the anxiety group.
What would common Lautia andthese dogs in the anxiety group?
What would you say?
Is you know for the peoplelistening in and I know I have
this question is it becausethese dogs have this anxiety

(25:10):
that we're seeing a higherproduction of that bacteria, or
is potentially the bacteriacausing some of the anxiety?

Speaker 2 (25:18):
I think that's going to be a question that I take to
my grave, honestly, because weknow there's a bidirectional
relationship there.
But you're exactly right, it isa chicken and egg relationship,
and until we know more aboutthe specific mechanisms,
potentially have somelongitudinal studies too, to see
if, as a dog or as a puppy, isdeveloping, if maybe Blautia

(25:42):
could be identified as abiomarker for an increased risk
group Again, that's going beyondthe scope of what we could say
from our study, but I think it'sdefinitely something that bears
keeping in mind for futurestudies is, if this is
indicative of an increased risk,it could be used in predictions

(26:03):
, but we don't know right now ifit is a case of anxiety coming
from other sources, that's thenaltering the gut microbiome
through stress.
One thing I do think our studyhas sort of made me start to
think about around that, though,is where we see bigger
differences between the groupsbased on anxiety, but not with

(26:26):
aggression.
When I then put my training hatback on and start to think
about what does anxiety looklike, what does aggression look
like?
Anxiety I kind of tend to thinkof as a more chronic condition.
It's that ongoing chronicstress, that chronic worry,
whereas aggression couldarguably be thought of as a bit
more context specific.

(26:47):
You behave aggressively in Xcontext to get certain desired
outcome.
So that would make sense if youknow, if Blautia is more
heavily associated with anxiety,if we're seeing more patterns
within anxious dogs that we'relooking at more of a chronic
condition than potentially withaggression.

(27:08):
That being said, the otherstudies have mostly focused on
aggression and they have somedifferences too.
So again, variability betweenstudies.
I would never be so bold as tosay that ours is the right way
or anything like that, becausethey provide pretty valid
evidence too to say that there'sa difference between aggressive
and non-aggressive dogs in acouple of different populations.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
now too, what was the number or percentage in the
aggression group?
You had 85 in the anxiety group.
What was the percentage youfound in the aggression group?

Speaker 2 (27:40):
For the accuracy in predicting the group yes.
For anxiety, in two of theanalyses we had 85% and 87%
accuracy.
For aggression, when we ranrandom forest with feature
selection, we got 75%.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
So when you get down to 50%, that's a flip of a coin
if the program is going toassign the dog to the correct
group.
Right, a flip of a coin if theprogram is going to assign the
dog to the correct group.
So definitely a lot moreconvincing evidence for anxiety
group for us than for theaggression group.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
So, with that being said, with aggression, you
studied it with fear-basedstranger issues, dog issues and
dog non-social fear, right?
So you're kind of looking atthat emotion of fear in the CBAR
questions where they kind ofskewed towards that emotion of
fear in the aggressive responses, or was it just dogs displaying
aggression?

Speaker 2 (28:44):
any of the validation studies.
There's evidence in theliterature, but also in real
life, for so many comorbiditiesbetween anxiety and aggression.
So what we found with thegroupings that we had?
We split them on aggression oranxiety, but when we look at the
combination of the two, themajority of the dogs that we
were comparing were both highlyaggressive and highly anxious,

(29:05):
compared to not anxious and notaggressive.
So the majority of dogs that wehad within those groups were
essentially the same dogs.
There were very few who cameout to have low anxiety and high
aggression and, conversely,very few that had low aggression
and high anxiety.
We did see a lot of comorbiditywithin our sample that you would

(29:27):
want to assume exhibitingfear-based aggression, but again
you can't really extract thatfrom the questionnaire and
derive the mechanisms for theiraggression.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
CB.
Yeah, because what comes tomind for me is sort of thinking
in that gut-brain axis and whathappens in the brain.
When we're talking about thebrain, when we think about
anxiety, we're thinking about anemotion or sort of a byproduct
of some emotions.
So you think about what'shappening in the brain there.
But with aggression, when we'remeasuring aggression, we're
often focused on the outside.

(29:58):
We're seeing the barking,lunging, growling.
So we might ask a pet owner youknow, what do you see?
Do you see barking, growling,lunging?
But that could be the cause orthe motivation could be from a
variety of different emotions.
Sometimes we might see like afear-based aggression and
sometimes we might see a dogprotecting a resource which, I
argue, is often they're startingto teeter into other emotions,

(30:19):
such as anger or rage, if you'relooking at an effective
neuroscience model.
Or even, let's say it was a dogthat's doing it for sport or is
happy about it.
So a dog trained to protectsomebody.
Or just genetically, they'relike I'm a Belgian Malinois and
I'm supposed to protect somebody.
So you might have underlyingemotions, different emotions in
play, all with the same suite ofbehaviors of barking, lunging,

(30:39):
growling, snapping, biting thatthe person taking that
questionnaire is going to see.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Do you think it's just moredifficult to study because of so
many variables, with aggressionversus like anxiety, where it's
kind of universal for us,especially as professionals, we
can say, okay, we see, you knowthe signs of anxiety, the
vocalizations, the pacingbehavior, the signs of anxiety,

(30:59):
the vocalizations, the pacingbehavior, the type of outward
behaviors and signals that wecould measure as anxiety, if
that makes sense I mean when,when we look at how we collected
the information, like it's hardfor us to extract the
motivations behind it, althoughthat was a question that I had

(31:21):
when we first started digginginto the CBARC and we were in
the planning stages of this.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
So we did also ask another questionnaire.
We called it the diet andlifestyle questionnaire, and one
of my areas of concern therewith the CBARC is I'd be looking
at the descriptions of thebehavior and the context that
they specifically ask about andin my mind I'm thinking of some
of my clients, say, anadolescent doodle who is just

(31:50):
really excited to be here andthey're a really frustrated
greeter and sure, they'relunging and they're barking and
they're jumping around andthey're pulling towards the
other dog, but they're notnecessarily trying to get that
dog to leave, they're trying toget the dog to come closer to
them.
So what we tried to do in theother questionnaire was sort of
confirm some of those behaviors.

(32:12):
So I specifically asked peopleI went for a very non-scientific
approach in the answers to thisparticular question because I
wanted to get a feeling for howdoes your dog feel in that
moment or how does the ownerperceive their dog in that
moment.
So they were asked when yourdog sees an unfamiliar dog on a
leash, is he excited?

(32:32):
Is he wagging his tail?
Is he pulling towards them?
So we could create this littleprofile of what the owner like,
the specific behaviors that theowner sees and the emotions or
feelings that they might attachto them.
Because when we talk aboutbehavior from like a scientific
perspective, we want operationaldefinitions, we want when X
happens my dog does this and wewant context and we want

(32:53):
accuracy.
But I think there's also a lotof value in what the owner
thinks the dog feels, becauseyou know, a wagging tail is a
wagging tail.
It can be a happy wagging tail.
It could be a very angry andstressed, intense one.
So this was actually reallyhelpful for us because our paper
, this research, is currentlyout with peer review and we got

(33:14):
the reviewers comments back andthey actually challenged us
quite a bit on the use ofseabark and the use of these
composite aggression and anxietyscores.
So I went back into the way wayback machine to the first data
that we collected there aboutthese behaviors and I split our
entire cohort up into the highand low aggressions.

(33:35):
We had this little matrix ofbehavioral designations and what
I kept finding was all of thesehigh aggression, high anxiety
dogs.
They are barking, they'relunging, they're trying to move
away, they're trying to hide,they're trying to ignore them,
and then the low anxiety dogsare excited and they're wagging
their tail and you could seelike this happy little picture

(33:58):
for the low anxiety and lowaggression dogs, and for me it
was just sort of satisfying myown curiosity.
We didn't really have a plan forthat information when we threw
it in there, but I thought, as atrainer, I'd just like to know
if you're giving me a highaggression score, say in dog
directed aggression, is your doggoing to maul my dog and kill
them when I see them, or is yourdog just really excited to be

(34:20):
there and they're just showingall of these explosive behaviors
?
We're actually now using thatas evidence for the reviewer to
say, no, actually, these C-markscores are pretty accurate and
even though it's been validatedin multiple different languages
and multiple different scenarios, they still wanted us to
provide a little bit moreevidence that our dogs are
actually high aggression, highanxiety dogs.

(34:41):
And just having that littlesnippet just from my own
training consultancy curiosityhas actually, you know, made
sure that this paper is probablygoing to end up getting
published, so yeah, yeah, that'sfascinating because you have
the dog trainer side again.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
That is so influential in making those
decisions and being able to seethose nuances, which makes me I
think just again this study sounique.
So I want to talk more aboutsome of the influences on the
biomes and what we can do tohelp some of these dogs with the
information we have currently.
But we're going to take a quickbreak to hear from our sponsors
and we'll be right back.
Hey, friends, it's me again andI hope you are enjoying this

(35:22):
episode.
Don't forget to join me for thefifth annual Aggression and
Dogs Conference, either inperson or online from Scottsdale
, arizona, from October 11th to13th 2024.
This year's lineup includesmany incredible speakers,
including Dr Clive Wynn, drJessica Heckman, emma Parsons,
sarah Kallnice, laurie Lawless,carmeletta Ofterheide, jess

(35:43):
Feliciano, dr Amy Cook and manymore.
Head on over toaggressivedogcom and click on
the conference tab to learn moreabout the exciting agenda on
everything from advancedconcepts in dog body language to
working with aggression inshelter environments, to genetic
influences on behavior.
Dr Amy Cook will be bringingher entertaining and energetic
personality to the grandreception and cocktail party

(36:05):
which, by the way, will be livestreamed as well as in person
and, as usual, you'll find awonderful, kind, caring and
supportive community at theconference, both in person and
online.
I also want to take a moment tothank one of our wonderful
sponsors this year Pets for Vets.
Did you know that approximately1 million shelter animals are
euthanized in the US every year?

(36:27):
At the same time, many of ourcountry's veterans are
experiencing post-traumaticstress disorder, traumatic brain
injury, anxiety and ordepression.
Pets for Vets founder andexecutive director, clarissa
Black, created a solution forthese problems by rescuing and
training animals for veterans.
Pets for Vets has a uniqueprogram model that customizes

(36:50):
each match between a veteran anda shelter animal to create what
is known as a super bond.
Each animal is selected andtrained specifically for each
veteran, based on the nuancedrelationship between animal
behavior and human personality,to ensure a successful,
reciprocal and enrichedrelationship.
Pets for Vets has a positivereinforcement mentality at its

(37:12):
core for animals, veterans andtrainers.
In addition to helping veteransand rescue animals, clarester
has created a generousopportunity for positive
reinforcement trainers to joinour organization.
Trainers are able toparticipate anywhere in the US
while receiving stipends,professional development
opportunities and maintaining aflexible schedule.

(37:32):
Pets for Vets is also seekingnew partnerships with animal
shelters and rescue groups fromaround the country.
For more information, pleasevisit petsforvetscom.
All right, we're back here withSarita Pillow and we are
talking about the biome and nowwe're going to jump into what

(37:55):
influences the biome.
So we talked about, obviously,things like diet, medical
antibiotics.
Can you walk us through that alittle bit?
What are some of those majorinfluences that people listening
in with their own dogs shouldbe aware of that could really
mess with the biome or help thebiome.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Sure.
So we can sort of split it intotwo categories.
I guess there's thecolonization and the development
of the gut microbiome and then,once we are in adulthood, I
guess, the maintenance of thegut microbiome and the
development of the gutmicrobiome, and then, once we
are in adulthood, I guess themaintenance of the gut
microbiome and the environmentalfactors that might affect it.
So when we look at where thegut microbiome starts, there's

(38:32):
actually a little bit ofcontroversy between scientists
of how the gut is initiallycolonized.
So if we look at the puppieswhen they're in utero and
they're still tucked up nice andcozy inside of mom, the
original theory was what we callthe sterile womb theory, that
bacteria can't pass that barrier.

(38:53):
They can't get to the puppies,which would make sense from the
perspective that we don't wantany harmful bacteria getting
into the womb and potentiallyaffecting these puppies.
So the main line of thoughtthere was looking at the
differences in delivery.
So if the puppies were bornnaturally or if they were born

(39:14):
by a C-section, that would alterthe initial colonization of the
gut.
What we've actually seen morerecently is that there is
evidence that the gutmicrobiomes do start to colonize
while the puppies are still inutero.
So this means that you knowthere is actually some transfer
of bacteria into the puppy'slittle micro environment in

(39:39):
there.
What I think is likelyhappening is probably a little
bit of both.
So the colonization theevidence there is pretty strong
for it.
I feel the colonization startswhile the puppies are still in
utero, but then that gutmicrobiome composition is
probably going to be affectedthrough transfer when the
puppies are born.
If they're born by a C-section,they're not going to get that

(40:00):
physical transfer of microbiotafrom the birthing canal onto the
puppy.
What does happen, though, is,once the puppies are born, the
mom's colostrum does a whole lotof work of kickstarting their
gut microbiome and theirimmunity.
So what we see between arounddays two and around 54, 56, I

(40:21):
think it is, there is rapidearly development of that gut
microbiome, and then there's abig switch at the major
milestone of weaning.
Once the puppies start to getswitched from the mom's milk
onto their puppy diet, the gutmicrobiome again has a big shift
and continues to develop thenuntil we think about a year old

(40:42):
and continues to develop thenuntil we think about a year old.
Once the dogs are around a yearold, the colony then within the
gut microbiome is relativelystable.
So what happens once we'vereached this place of settling
down on an individual's corepopulation is we start to adjust
with.
We can adjust the gut microbiomewith diet, with probiotics we

(41:02):
can introduce beneficialbacteria.
With antibiotics we deplete alot of the diversity that's in
there.
But whenever you stop one ofthese supplementation processes
the gut microbiome is going torevert to its original state.
So that's, I think, quiteimportant to consider if people
are looking into usingprobiotics for their dogs.

(41:24):
Very commonly if a dog is putonto antibiotics, they'll have a
short course of probiotics togo along with it to supplement
the gut, and then they can stopbecause there's no need for that
individual once the gutmicrobiome has recovered after
the use of antibiotics, whichcan take a few months.
After the use of antibiotics,which can take a few months.

(41:44):
We had a question about thatrecently in the presentation of
after antibiotic use, like howlong does it take for the gut
microbiome to go back to quoteunquote normal?
So I did some digging thismorning and it's looking at
anywhere from two to six months.
So I would suggest from that ifa dog is struggling after
they've been on a course ofantibiotics and it's resulted in

(42:05):
some gastrointestinal upset.
They probably want to get someFortiflora on board, probably
for a couple of months, to helpthe gut microbiome sort of
restore itself.
I like to think of it as sortof a pendulum when you're
putting new supplement in thereor if you're changing the diet.
So long as that supplementationis in effect, the gut

(42:25):
microbiome has shifted, but assoon as you stop it's going to
revert back to its nativepopulation.
So if we then considerpotentially in the future we
might continue to use probioticsas a means of treating
behavioral issues, if thatbehavioral issue is considered
long-term, the probiotic wouldhave to be administered

(42:48):
long-term in order to continueaffecting the gut in the way we
want it to.
They say, as soon as you stop,the gut microbiome is going to
go right back to normal.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
And there's been very little research done on that
part of things of treatingbehavior issues with probiotics
correct.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
That's right.
Yeah, because we don't knowwhat the link is first.
So we don't exactly know whichprobiotics or supplements to
throw at the problem.
There is some research outthere, but I have my questions
about it.
I guess I mean, we do regularlyuse both Portaflora and Calming

(43:20):
Care, the two Purina productsfor dogs who are struggling.
In terms of the research thatthey deliver to us, it's not
exactly the same level ofinformation that you might see
from a peer-reviewed article.
And I have no doubts that itworks, because I've seen it work
in my clients.
I've seen it work for my owndogs.
Humans benefit from probiotics.

(43:42):
They have probiotics foreverybody.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
And you're talking about both the sorry, just to
clarify the Flora and the Purina.
Common Care or?

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, I've had pretty much equal results for both of
them.
So Fortiflora is theEnterococcus bacteria, whereas
so Fortiflora is theEnterococcus bacteria, whereas
the newer one, common Care, isBifidobacterium.
From anecdotal evidence in myteeny tiny little population of
clients here, they have bothbeen beneficial.
So it's pretty much been a caseof whichever one.

(44:19):
Your vets got there, or, if youknow, if you can pick it up on
amazon or something like that.
They are both beneficial, butit's risky there because we
don't know the exact mechanismsthat we're looking at.
So they're still kind of in thecan't hurt, might help category
for me until we have moreinformation, and I think if a
dog has any level of underlyingillness, it's definitely worth
having a veterinarian on board.

(44:40):
I'd probably argue that if adog has severe enough issues
that they are considering usinga probiotic, the vet should be
on board already, because youprobably discussed either a
veterinary behaviors consult orimplementing some medication to
help with the anxiety thatthey're seeing.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Okay, so what are some of the other things we can
do to help?
You mentioned a couple ofsupplements there, but you talk
about often.
Just getting out there in thenatural world could be so
helpful for regulating the biomeand helping dogs and people.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Absolutely so.
There's a lot of evidence thataccess to the great outdoors and
getting the exposure to naturewhether that is from our dog's
perspective, the items that theymight interact with in the
environment, or simply just fromthe simple act of decompression
going out for a nice relaxingwalk where there are no
reactions and there are plentyof sniffs and you're able to

(45:31):
satisfy the individual'sphysical needs and mental
stimulation I think they go along way to helping ease some of
the symptoms of anxiety andalso supporting the gut as well
from reducing that chronicstress.
If you're cooped up inside allday, you're not getting enough
exercise and you're not gettingaccess to the fresh air, it

(45:53):
can't be good for us mentallyand it's likely not good for the
gut either because of thoselong-term impacts of stress on
chronic inflammation.
So for my clients personally,I've got a few recommendations
for them.
When we're dealing with asituation where emotions are
high, you're dealing with ahighly anxious or aggressive dog
, there are things that you canput in place.

(46:15):
You don't have to run out andstart picking up supplements.
There are things that you canput in place.
You don't have to run out andstart picking up supplements.
You don't have to change yourdog's diet.
But we do track some things tohelp support their gut health
because whether these mechanismsare acting through the gut
microbiome or otherwise, I haverecommendations for my clients
just to ensure that if you'vegot a happy gut, you've probably
got a happy butt too.

(46:35):
A happy gut, happy gut, happymind.
So a few of the things that wedo we track their bowel movement
scores so we can identifypatterns of behavior for one,
because often you'll see themorning bowel movement wasn't so
great.
And then they'll track theirfeelings about the dog's
reactivity throughout that dayif they had any episodes.
And typically we're seeingworse bowel movements on the

(46:59):
days where they're having a lotof trouble.
But again, chicken and egg arethey stressed, so their bowel
movements aren't great or issomething going on in the gut
and it's impacting theirbehavior.
I also get them to track theirfood and treats so if there are
any new treats being introducedthat might upset the belly.
But there's also been a littlebit more interest in food

(47:20):
intolerances and allergies aswell and the relationships that
that might have with behavior.
I saw a case study not too longago n of one.
There's only one dog, but it wasquite an interesting little
paper where they believe thatthe dog may have some level of,
I guess, canine celiac, and theyhad an intolerance to grains,
so they put the dog may havesome level of, I guess, canine

(47:42):
celiac.
They had an intolerance tograins, so they put the dog on a
hydrolyzed protein diet, andthe behaviors were all but fixed
, and the one time that they didactually have a re-up in the
aggressive behavior from the dogwas when it got into the cat's
kibble.
That was just one tiny shift inhis diet, brought on a couple
of days, I think, of aggressivebehavior that was then remedied

(48:02):
again by going back onto thestrict diet.
The kind of unfortunate thingthere, though, is obviously it's
one dog, so it is an isolatedstudy, and when an owner in that
position starts to feel betterabout the behavior, then chances
are they're going to turn downcostly diagnostics and follow-up
, because for them the problem'sfixed.
I think more studies like thatwould be really interesting.

(48:24):
We've had, anecdotally, one ofthe dogs that I've worked with
here in Newfoundland.
We found that both fortifloraand beef liver were two key
predictors of how his behaviorwas going to be on a given day.
We started to notice that whenhe had beef liver, usually that
night he would have anaggressive reaction towards his

(48:46):
family.
And with Fortiflora we had himon it for I think we did about
two months starting off and thenthe owner wasn't able to pick
up another pack.
Within a week He'd revertedright back to the intense
guarding and aggressivebehaviors.
So, I wouldn't claim it to be ascientific finding, but it is

(49:06):
interesting to see thosepatterns.
Once you start to record theinformation and get the data
from your clients, you start tohighlight these patterns and
it's just fascinating to see howit can have an impact on the
individual.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Yeah, it is fascinating and I love that you
know again with humans and withanimals.
We're talking more about dietand how that can influence
behaviors in so many ways, youknow, and we're definitely
seeing it more in the humanresearch and the people talking
about it more, which is great.
I think it's something thatwe've kind of at least in the US
culture swept under the rug forquite some time, and there's

(49:40):
obviously a lot of outsideinfluences which I won't get
into on this podcast.
But now, speaking of that,you're a scientist and you're a
dog trainer, and so for me Iwould say I'm just on the dog
training side.
Of course I love the science,but I don't do the research like
you do and I'm not necessarilydiving into papers every day,
and so when we're working withclients, there's like this kind

(50:02):
of sometimes this balance wehave to keep, like okay, we need
to back things up.
So the science-based dogtraining we often hear that kind
of term used like I want ascience-based dog trainer and we
can unpack that as well.
But you kind of struggle alsowith there's a lot of stuff we
talk about with clients thatthere hasn't been research done
or that we don't have theinformation from academia yet to

(50:22):
back up what we're saying.
So from your side, because youhave both hats on, how do you
balance that?
Or just kind of an open-endedquestion what are your thoughts
on that?
And especially for the dogtrainers listening in that
aren't in university research.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
On a good day, I balance with therapy and on a
bad day I balance it with wine.
You know it's a lot.
I didn't really expect mybusiness to be quite so busy
when I made the decision to goback to school but it has
resulted in, you know, very longdays, very long nights.
By day I am glued to mycomputer trying to write my
thesis and then by night I'mgoing in and to people's homes
and getting heavily involved inessentially being their little

(51:05):
group therapist for theirfamilies and their dogs.
So it's demanding in terms oftime and demanding in terms of
emotional capability as well tokeep on top of all of it, and I
think it's.
You know it's important at thebest of times for us to be
taking care of our personalmental health.
When you're dealing with suchvery it can be polarizing

(51:25):
sometimes.
You know, I'll go to a client'shome and we're discussing
behavioral euthanasia and then Ihead on down to my group
classes and spend two hours with10 week old puppies you know we
think of sometimes are like Idon't know how vets do it half
the time when they're doing allof that within one building.
They're going from one room ofeuthanasia to the next one.

(51:46):
It's a puppy's first vaccinesand it's such a an intense flip
for us to put on our ourselvesand our psyches and then we
expect to come out the other endwith no consequences to our own
mental health.
I think everybody who does thework that we do should have
somebody on board whether it's atherapist or a counselor or a

(52:10):
decent support network to helpyou genuinely process the
emotions that you go through ona day-to-day basis.
Because we can't you know youcan't rationalize your way out
of a fight or flight responsewhen you're stressed.
You know you can't think yourway or justify your way out of
burnout.
You have to actively take careof yourself.

(52:31):
For me, that sort of gottriggered last year by a
behavioral euthanasia case thatwe were actually on vacation and
it's the first vacation that mypartner, chris and I have taken
in I think almost eight yearssince we actually fully left the
island together.
It was beautiful, we were inBarcelona, we just got engaged,

(52:52):
we were having the time of ourlives, spending time with my
family, and I got a couple ofmessages off the client saying
Enzo bit me, enzo attacked me,enzo was attacking me and it was
escalating so quickly.
Obviously, I felt completelypowerless to help in another
country.
I can't do anything about thisand the dog was euthanized

(53:14):
before I returned to Canada.
I think it was the rightdecision.
Um, it was such a heartbreakingcase but as their sort of like
mentor and caretaker in all ofthis, it left me feeling like I
hadn't done enough because Ileft the country and you know
that took a decent little bit oftherapy to get me past that

(53:34):
feeling of guilt that my leavingmy job for a moment to take
care of me and my family causedthis dog to behave this way and
I know now that it didn't like.
I've had a lot of help ingetting past that and one of the
best things is that myself andthis client are still in touch
and we've actually become quitegood friends now because of this

(53:55):
process has brought us a lotcloser.
But I truly think that Iwouldn't have been able to
overcome that and genuinely healfrom the trauma that was that
case if I hadn't had a goodtherapist, who I trust, on board
for just to talk me through theprocess and show me how to help
take better care of myself whenI'm starting to have those

(54:15):
doubts about a scenario, and Ithink I'm probably going to be
better equipped to deal withthat again in the future now,
and not quite let it impact mypersonal health as much as that
one did.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
You've summed up my question really well, because it
was like thinking your academicside, your dog trainer side,
but then you're talking aboutthe human side, right, you need
to balance all these things, allthese hats you're wearing, and
remember that, talking about thehuman side, right, you need to
balance all these things, allthese hats you're wearing, and
remember that it's the humanside of the equation that's the
most important.
Because I think we all strugglewith and I was just thinking
too, as you're talking about theconversations that you must

(54:49):
need to have, especially ifyou're on social media or you're
having discussions or debatesaround certain topics is because
I find that academics, or whenI see conversations between
researchers, scientists, they'redifferent.
There's a different feel ortone, and sometimes dog trainers
will look at me and go, oh, whyare they being so rude to each
other?
It's just the way they talk toeach other and it's just a good

(55:11):
debate.
It's good debate, no hardfeelings, Nobody's throwing
names most of the time at eachother.
It's just normal scientificdebate.
And when we get into dogtraining conversations it can
get much.
There's a different vibe or adifferent feel.
And so what I was thinking likejust a follow-up question for
you, is what if you knowsomebody's talking to you and
you're like you've got youracademic hat on, your

(55:33):
science-based hat on, andsomebody's like, oh, so how do
you really know?
Has there been any studies orresearch done on that?
And then that side of yourbrain is like, ooh, has there
been?
But then your dog trainer sideis like, well, I've seen this
work a million times and I knowit works because anecdotally
I've seen it work and a millionother trainers are doing the
same thing and I've questionedit, I've said, okay, is this the

(55:53):
ethical, positive thing to dowith this dog?
So like that kind of example,right, you know.
So what is kind of your advicethere, seeing that you have
these two hats on?
For the trainers that are maybestruggling with trying to be
science-based and to backeverything up they're doing with
data and research, but maybethey can't all the time because,
like, the biome hasn't beenstudied enough, so I can't be

(56:13):
like let's give this dog aBlautia killing pill and
everything will be fixed Right.
Like, like.
What do you do there?

Speaker 2 (56:20):
So I hope that makes sense respect the most, I think,
within the industry and thepeople who have the most

(56:41):
valuable information to give arenot stuck in the weeds there.
On the comments of someargument between a force-free
trainer and a balanced trainerabout X type of equipment, I
think a lot of the time emotionsrun high with those kinds of
things.
But I think the more confidentsomebody is in their field and
in their expertise, the lesslikely you're going to see them

(57:04):
devolving into that kind ofdebate.
Like there's some wonderfulinformation out there on social
media.
There's some great trainers whoput out wonderful videos and I
think it's really important,especially in this economy, that
people have access to freeinformation that's going to help
them and their dogs.
But on the flip side is theInternet.
Anybody can post anything thatthey want and I can't help but

(57:27):
wonder sometimes if people areseeing that somebody has a large
social media following andassuming that the information
that they're putting out must beabsolutely correct simply
because of that following.
It's kind of a.
We've got to exercise a bit ofcaution as dog owners and
consumers of information onsocial media.
Like it's a tough choice tomake for a lot of people.

(57:49):
Who are you going to listen towho are you going to say?
That is the professionalopinion and they are correct.
And when that comes toscience-based dog training, I
sometimes have a question.
It was actually my supervisor,carolyn, has had me thinking
about this over the last coupleof years now.
So when I started training dogsback in Denzel's early days, I

(58:09):
was what I would consider abalanced trainer.
My dog had a prong collar.
I was taught that if he reacted, you give a correction.
You need to suppress thatbehavior and if you're not
seeing the behavior, then thedog is okay, which you know, as
I've learned over the years, isobviously not necessarily the
case, and I'm a lot more awarenow of stress signals and of not

(58:31):
putting him into situationswhere it might be considered
flooding.
But when we take that toscience-based dog training, I
think the interpretation of thatis up for a little bit of
debate, because we use scienceto guide our decisions in
forming new protocols ortraining exercises and a lot of

(58:53):
that psychology.
It comes from multiplemammalian models it's humans,
it's dogs, it's mice, it's allkinds of things.
But I think we can't pick andchoose which science we decide
to listen to just because itresonates with our preconceived
notion of what it should be.
So you know, without gettingtoo much into the weeds on all

(59:16):
of it, I don't think that youcan look at the four quadrants
and say that they are allscientific concepts, so I'm
going to use all of them.

(59:38):
There's a lot more science,especially over the last 15, 20
years or so, looking at theimpacts on welfare and on stress
hormones and all kinds ofthings that if you're going to
use the argument ofscience-based dog training, you
have to go and look at thescience.
You've got to spend a couple ofweekends getting out and
reading some papers and thinkingabout the methods that they're
using.
Is this a valid study?
Should this have been publishedin the first place?
Because not every journal iscreated equal.
You know, just because it'speer-reviewed, it doesn't mean
that the peer who reviewed it isnecessarily the best person to

(01:00:01):
be providing an opinion on it.
So you know, you can definitelyget caught up in it and you can
get quite cynical with it toosometimes, which I really don't
want people to do.
I don't want that to bepeople's like take home from
this comment about science-baseddog training.
But I think if you're going touse that term, you should
probably justify what you meanby it.

(01:00:22):
And on a personal level, youshould definitely be actively
involved in doing your researchon the scientific literature, so
you know what science you'rereferring to when you say that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
CB.
Well said, very well said, andI think it's a great way to wrap
up the show as well.
Sarita, where can people findyou?
What are you up to next?

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
coast canineca next steps for us.
I am finishing up my thesis, sohopefully by the time this airs
I'll be able to say that I havefinally finished, and we are
also looking into thepossibility of setting up our
own little clinic here.
I am going through the processof trying to start east coast
canine dog training academy,where we hope to be able to
expand our services and offer anindoor location for private
training as well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Wonderful Sarita.
This has been an excellentconversation with you.
Thank you so much for joiningus and I hope to see you again
in the future.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Thank you very much, it's been my pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
I truly enjoyed this conversation with Sarita and I'm
really excited to see wherescience takes us on this topic
in the next few years.
I'm hopeful that, as wecontinue to make connections
between behavior and the biologyof dogs, we'll be able to have
more options to help dogs withaggression.
And don't forget to head onover to AggressiveDogcom for
more information about helpingdogs with aggression.

(01:01:52):
From the Aggression in DogsMaster Course to webinars from
world-renowned experts and evenan annual conference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression in dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource

(01:02:13):
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends,
and you'll go, and you'll go.