Navigating the Hard Realities of Shelter Behavior and Rescue with Saharai Salazar

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is a powerful and emotional episode with Sarai
Salazar, an incredibly giftedand talented trainer working on
the front lines in the shelterworld.
Sara and I discuss many of theemotionally challenging aspects
of working in this oftenthankless industry and share
much of her personal journeyalong the way.
Sara Yi is a shelter behaviorspecialist who works primarily

(00:26):
with behaviorally challenged andeuthanasia listed dogs,
especially fear and aggressioncases.
She earned her bachelor'sdegree from UC Davis in wildlife
, fish and conservation biology,with an emphasis on canine
behavior, ecology and evolution,and has worked at numerous
shelters over the last 20 years.
While she enjoys working withprivate clients, her biggest

(00:47):
passion is shelter behavior andfinding practical solutions for
the unique challenges that arefaced in the industry.
She'll be speaking at theupcoming Aggression in Dogs
conference, happening fromSeptember 29th through October
1st in Chicago, illinois.
Her presentation will focus onpractical approaches to behavior
change strategies for shelterdogs with a history of

(01:07):
aggression.
I also want to give a contentwarning for this episode.
As we discuss assault andtrauma, listener discretion is
advised.
Hey guys, welcome back to thebitey end of the dog.
I'm super excited for thisepisode.
We've been kind of focusing alot on the human side of the

(01:29):
equation when we're talkingabout dogs and people this
season.
So I'm really excited to chatwith Sara Yi Salazar here about
all of the work that she's doingin the shelter world, as well
as what she's kind of learnedover the years in working with
humans and dogs, but focusing onthe human element as well.
I think it's fantastic that weget to chat about this.

(01:49):
So welcome to the show, sara Yi.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Thank you so much for having me, Michael.
It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes.
So I discovered Sara Yi's workon Instagram so I was like you
know, as a lot of us as trainersdo is just go on to the feeds
and I've started seeing likethis really great work being
done in shelter.
I'm like who is this person?
This is really fantastic andseeing the dogs change and you
do such a great job ofshowcasing sort of like the
before and after.

(02:16):
You know, without pushing thoseethical boundaries of like, let
me just get this footage for,for you know, media sake or like
TV kind of training, becauseit's actually very unavoidable
in many cases in the shelterenvironments much different than
working with dogs in a privatekind of scenario.
So that's why I discovered yourwork and I'm so excited to have
met you and be able to make thisconnection and help to spread

(02:38):
the message that you're sharingwith the world.
So I'd love to kind of jumpright in and find out, like,
what got you into this?
What's your background intogetting into the shelter side of
things?

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yes, so I have been working in the pet care industry
for over 20 years now, and thisis a variety of settings,
anywhere from pet stores todoggy daycares.
I went to RVT school as well,and I started volunteering at
shelters when I was 16 years oldand started working at them in
my late twenties.
I was still continuing myeducation, so I actually earned

(03:11):
my bachelor's.
In my thirties I went to UCDavis.
I majored in wildlife, fish andconservation biology, where my
emphasis was canine studies, sothis includes anything from
evolution, genetics, behavior,physiology anything that had to
do with canine studies that Icould apply to the pet care
world I found fascinating.

(03:32):
I actually applied to myfollowing shelter when I was in
my Ochem class, so I should havebeen paying attention, but I
was looking for jobs.
It was my last course beforegraduating and I saw an opening
at Napa County animal shelterand they are a smaller county
shelter.
They are designated no kill andfirst, walking in there, my

(03:53):
first impression was all ofthese dogs that had been sitting
on the isolation row for monthsand there was no plan for them.
Staff could not handle thesedogs.
They were not ready foradoption and rescues weren't
pulling them, but because theywere a no kill shelter, they
were very limited on the typesof dogs that were eligible for
euthanasia, so per countyordinance and independent

(04:17):
behaviorists had to come ontothe shelter and evaluate the dog
for free.
The trainer must also beworking under a 501c3.
So there were all of thesestipulations that made it very
difficult for this particularshelter to make any of decisions
regarding these dogs and theywere wasting away.
I mean, that first week ofwalking in just being surrounded

(04:41):
by that chaos and that soundand that suffering made such an
impact on my life and myeveryday, the way I approached
every day and what I felt when Iwoke up going to work, and I
could never get these dogs outof my mind.
And unfortunately, in thisshelter, much like many shelters

(05:01):
throughout the United States,there was no dedicated behavior
department.
These staff members are doingeverything from the care, the
cleaning, adoptions, transport,they're working with fosters,
they're doing offsite events andmaybe, if you're lucky, you can
get five dogs out that day.
So these dogs are spendingupwards of 24 hours a day inside
of their kennel.

(05:21):
There was no enrichment program.
Volunteers didn't have accessto these dogs either.
They were in a locked ward andI remember approaching
management and asking can I putit upon myself to make these
dogs my project dogs?
And she said yes.
So I had already been trainingwith private clients and doing
some behavior work in theprevious shelters, but never to

(05:43):
this degree.
And pairing myself with thesedogs, working with them over the
weeks and getting them to thepoint where they were either
adoptable or eligible to rescuewas my main goal, and this
required working through mybreaks, working through my
lunches, staying after, and thisovertime is encountered.
The county didn't have a lot ofovertime for their staff

(06:04):
members, so I was not alone inthis.
This tends to be the trend inthis industry is, in order to
get the work that we need to getdone, we have to work through
our lunches and breaks and workfree overtime.
I knew I could do a lot moreforming my own business and
branching out to work withmultiple shelters, because
everyone is struggling right now.

(06:26):
What we predicted was going tohappen with COVID is happening.
So, according to the statistics, so there were not more
adoptions in 2020.
So everyone thinks there wasthis massive rush of adoptions
during that period, but the datareally isn't showing that.
So most shelters actuallyclosed for adoptions.
Most weren't offering thatservice to the public.

(06:49):
They were still taking instrays, but for the most part we
weren't taking in ownersurrenders.
We weren't conducting adoptions.
So one blessing in disguise forthat period of time was we were
close to the public.
We were able to work one-on-onewith these dogs.
We were able to maintain ourintake numbers a little bit
better, so we were able to copewith the workload that we had

(07:11):
with the resources that wealready had.
Now that we're coming out ofthis, we are seeing shelters
have 250-plus wait lists, sopeople waiting to surrender
their dogs.
We are getting strays in everysingle day these dogs are.
Now we're seeing seven to12-month puppies that are
extremely under socialized.

(07:33):
They have zero resilience.
They have not been exposed toenough positive environments or
interactions with people orother animals.
So we are in an absolute crisisright now and I feel we started
this organization at theperfect time, so there is such a
need for what we do.

(07:53):
The other side of my business ismy partner.
He's Nate Valenti.
He's an animal control officerwho I actually met at the
shelter at Napa County AnimalShelter, and we started working
with these challenging dogstogether and it has been such a
blessing in my life.
I have found my purpose doingthis type of work.
Unfortunately, it takes amassive emotional and physical

(08:16):
toll.
There's never a finish line.
So no matter how much effort weput into one particular dog,
there's always going to be 100more that need our help.
So, although we started firstwith working with a lot of
private clients and thenshifting to shelter and rescue
work, that is our main focusright now.
So, especially these past twoyears, we are no longer taking

(08:37):
private clients.
We are focusing specificallywith shelters.
We work with five shelters inthe area and many rescue
organizations throughout theUnited States.
So our biggest focus now isbehavior evaluations for these
behaviorally challenged oreuthanasia listed dogs.
We started training volunteersand staff on everything from
animal handling, defensivehandling, behavior modification

(09:00):
techniques specific to thatindustry, post adoption behavior
support.
We started enrichment programsand behavior based foster
programs for shelters and we'rehelping them develop these very,
very crucial components to theoverall picture of helping out
these dogs.
But I never want to look backand think is there anything else

(09:23):
I could have done?
And I absolutely know I'm doingthe right thing.
This is my purpose in life andI couldn't be more grateful to
have this opportunity to workwith essentially the throwaway
dogs of our communities.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
That's impressive, all of that you've done and such
a selfless act to really helpso many dogs that need it, and
now that you're able to spreadthe information further, it's
fantastic.
So I think some of thelisteners probably think what
does a day in the life look likefor you?
So let's describe a day you'reactually going into the shelter
environment and working withthese dogs.

(09:57):
Are you like just working withtons and tons of really
aggressive dogs?
Or like, what does it look likeon a typical day for you?
Kind of walk us through thatlike you know a good day for you
, perhaps.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yes, that is a great question.
So right now our biggest focusis evaluations.
So the thing many shelters arestruggling with the most is they
identify behaviors that areconcerning to them and they will
call me in and I have shiftsthat I work, so specific days
where I go into these sheltersand I evaluate dogs, that list

(10:27):
can be upwards of 25 dogs for asingle day.
So some shelters have a neweuthanasia list every single day
.
People need to understand this.
Some shelters don't.
Some shelters are lucky andwhen a dog comes along that they
feel is will be a challenge toplace, then they start thinking
about that pathway.
Hey, if there's no goodprognosis for this dog, then we

(10:48):
start considering euthanasia.
That is not the case right now.
So with the amount of dogs weare getting in, our lists are 25
or more dogs for a single day.
So I've got my protective gear.
I go in, I start pulling outthese dogs and working with them
.
I write my behavioralevaluations as I'm out in the
yard with these dogs and thewhole process is very holistic.

(11:13):
So this is the issue I've seenin with behavioral evaluations
in the past.
They've been very stringent.
We are placing these dogs invery unnatural positions and
situations and environments andtesting them For things that
most dogs, even pet dogs, wouldgo over threshold.
And for me I have developedvery holistic approach where I

(11:38):
will first work cage side.
You have to do a lot of bodyreading, so what is the dog
telling me?
My biggest quote is sit withthe dogs, they will talk to you.
So understanding that what weare seeing is not necessarily
what's going on internally.
Getting these dogs out, workingthem in a yard first, so very,
very important as well.
A lot of people rush thehandling and rush these steps in

(12:01):
the intake rooms or the vetrooms.
The dogs are already superstressed out.
We got to get them out of thekennel, so a lot of people who
are maybe the public is lookingin.
It may look like play, it maylook like I'm just hanging out
with the dog in the yard whilethey're sniffing around and
eliminating and decompressing.
But so much of that gives usthat information that we're

(12:22):
looking for and I will bring thedog into real life room.
We'll hang out in there on thecouches.
There's music, playing, there'stoys, there's food around.
So rather than tethering a dogto the wall and putting a bowl
down and reaching into it with afake hand.
How reliable will thatinformation be?

(12:42):
So for me, it's getting the dogout of the kennel how the
safety is my biggest concern.
So if they're able to behandled safely, the prognosis is
much better.
I will take these dogs out oneby one, write my reports.
I will often work with staff orvolunteers.
Right now we're doing a lot ofmentorship programs, so the
shelters are partnering onestaff member volunteer with me

(13:04):
so they shadow me throughoutthis process.
That is so important.
There is only one of me.
My goal has always been to teachpeople to do what I do.
I would love if every staffmember regardless if your front
desk or care staff had sometraining background had some
knowledge in reading canine bodylanguage, so we can make a

(13:26):
bigger impact.
I love teaching group classesas well, so this was something
we started a couple years ago,and things like teaching basic
obedience or life skills canincrease the prognosis for
adoption dramatically.
So we often pair handlers anddogs in small groups of four or
five.
We'll have place bedsthroughout a big yard and we'll

(13:47):
work on obedience, engagement,focus, work, leash handling
skills all of these things thatwill translate into the adoptive
home as well.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, and you bring up so many important points as
well.
In my travels around thecountry and around the world is
that one of the common themes orfactors is the lack of staffing
, the lack of time, the lack ofpeople being able to do the
things you're doing.
And so, you know, we were justkind of mentioning the different
assessments that are out there,but a lot of this is just a

(14:17):
lack of time, and so what you'redoing is actually very
important Teaching volunteershow to do much of what you're
doing but I think when theoutside world looks in and we
hear about behavioral euthanasiadecisions or, you know, dogs
being, you know, housed in thesemore difficult situations, what
we don't focus on is the humanside of sometimes.
We're like so focused on thedogs, of course, which is

(14:38):
important, obviously, but weforget that there's humans
involved, taking care of thesedogs day in and day out, and the
lack of staffing, the lack ofresources, is not talked about
enough.
It's a thank, it really is athankless job in so many of the
places I visited, you know,shout out to all of the shelter
staff around the world that aredoing this daily.
So it's kind of along thoselines.

(14:59):
You know where do you find thestrength to keep doing this?
You know, because it's it is athankless job and a lot of
people don't all they focus onthose decisions they hear about.
Oh, that person's bad becausethey decided on behavioral
euthanasia.
I could have taken that dog andI could have fixed that dog, or
why don't they reach out to meand they don't see the other
side?
So where do you find thestrength in all of this to keep

(15:20):
going and doing what you'redoing?

Speaker 2 (15:22):
Thank you so much for bringing this up, because I see
this trend often on socialmedia, where people will post a
dog that needs to be networked,that's on a euthanasia list, and
many of the comments will readthings like oh my God, they're
murderers.
How can they sleep at night?
These people don't care,they're heartless, they're,

(15:42):
they're monsters.
These shelter staff are paintedas monsters and of course,
there are bad eggs in everyindustry.
Of course there are people whomay appear to be indifferent,
but sometimes that indifferenceis a coping mechanism.
And unless you've been in thatposition where you have hundreds
of dogs to take care of andthere were holidays where I was

(16:04):
the only staff member workingChristmas Day while everyone
else was at home with theirfamilies, and here I am trying
to feed 200 dogs and 100 catsand make sure everyone gets even
five minutes out of theirkennel and that all the poop is
scooped up, that burden isunspeakable.
I mean, for me, what keeps megoing is, as much as I would

(16:28):
want it to be, the successstories, and I hang on to that
positivity.
It is the dogs that I've lost,and actually I skipped over this
story when you asked me how Igot into this.
But whiskey foxtrot was.
It was a dog that mostdefinitely everything that is
fueling this business and what Ido in our mission.

(16:48):
So he was a dog that I waspaired with about halfway
through my stint at Napa CountyAnimal Shelter.
A two year old male GermanShepherd intact.
No staff could handle him.
So I worked with him overseveral months and he ended up
being okay with me.
But we were never able togeneralize his behaviors, his
trust and this relationship withanyone else, and that is

(17:10):
because of the lack of time.
I absolutely took all my extratime and put it into this dog,
but I can't realistically expectothers to do that.
They have their own focuses,they have their own jobs and
ultimately the decision was madefrom another trainer to
euthanize him and because hetrusted me and he felt safe with

(17:32):
me, I volunteered to deliverthat injection myself and it was
the hardest thing that I'veever had to do and a part of me
left with him that day.
It died and it's that feelingof never wanting another dog to
meet that fate, if I am able tointervene and do something about
it, that pushes me every singleday and I'm glad that you

(17:55):
brought this up because, evenspeaking to other people.
These past two months have beeninsanely challenging.
We have put so much effort.
There was a dog soul that Iposted, so we put so much time
and effort into getting him outof the shelter.
They gave me 24 hours.
They said you have 24 hours toget this dog out and I had

(18:16):
already built a relationshipwith him.
We were already going outsidehe was fantastic.
But again in that kennel all wesee is barking and lunging and
it's a manifestation of thatstress and I am the only one
that was able to see past that.
That's what I want to do is toteach people.
What you see is not the fullstory.

(18:37):
We have to understand thatthese dogs are placed in the
absolute worst position possibleand we are judging them based
on that.
Who are we to judge them?
If we as humans were placed inthat position and that
expectation was held steady, somany of us would fail.
And it's such a tricky linebecause we also have to

(18:59):
recognize the position thatwe're in.
We cannot save every dog.
There's no place for many ofthese dogs.
Rescues are full, everyone isfull and the direction that
we're going in that's notletting up anytime soon.
So self care has been achallenge for me this entire
time, being mindful that Icannot fill someone else's cup

(19:21):
if mine isn't full, sodefinitely taking that time off.
I've been very much betterabout that this past year, so
making sure we get some time offto recharge, but I can never
see myself doing anything else.
I hope there is not a need forwhat we do in the future.
That is my goal.
I hope I have to find a newpassion and I hit a midlife

(19:43):
crisis later on.
Where what do I do with my life?
But in the meantime, there, allI see is these, these dogs
sitting in.
What is the future?
They're sitting in what isessentially a prison, to no
fault of their own, and they aregetting killed for it.
So I need everyone to understandwho's listening.
I hear you and I see you and Ivalidate what you're feeling,

(20:05):
because so many of us feel likewe're drowning, and this is a
community effort.
We need to understand this isnot a shelter problem.
We keep looking at shelters asif they're the ones that are
giving up their dogs and beingput in that position themselves,
but it's not the case.
So that is the fuel for me isevery single dog that I've lost

(20:29):
along the way, knowing that thishelp will always be needed.
But that, for me, pushes me toteach everyone else.
So, having the opportunity toanyone who will listen, you can
do what I do.
It's not magic.
Yes, it took a lot of knowledgeand skill set and building that
over the years and becomingcomfortable, and that also
included bites and maulings.

(20:50):
I am not immune to that.
I've had very, very bad attacksthat have required stitches.
It's scary and people need tounderstand this is such a
complex situation.
It's not just keep the dogsalive and figure out what to do
with them.
That human side, the fear Imean.
I went back to work.
I had such a severe injury thatneeded stitches so I had my

(21:11):
left breast torn open, my nippletorn open by a 92 pound dog.
If my boyfriend hadn't beenthere to intervene, who knows
what has happened.
And that is a position so manyof these shelter staff are in.
We're not working with privateclients.
These dogs aren't muzzled andleashed.
We don't have a behaviorhistory on them.
All we see is again this thisbarking and lunging dog is.

(21:33):
Sometimes they're friendly, butthey snap.
You know, every single livingthing has its limit and we are
surrounded by such suffering andday by day, we see the physical
and mental deterioration ofthese dogs, and we have to
support each other.
In the end, it all comes back tothat.
When emotions run high andwe're working every single

(21:57):
person is working this hard tosave these dogs we tend to use
each other as scapegoats and wepit ourselves against one
another when we all want thesame thing.
First of all, recognizing that,yes, we are all suffering in
this, but we're sufferingtogether and we can support each
other, I think is a big changethat we need to see in this

(22:18):
industry, especially the rescueand shelter worlds.
That's the only way we're goingto win this fight or even get
our heads above water is workingtogether.
So, doing what I can andplaying my part in this is
teaching people the skills andthe knowledge that I've gained
over the years.
We can learn from my mistakes.
They don't have to do it, buttheir hearts and their minds

(22:38):
need to be open.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
I so, so appreciate you sharing all these points
because, Again, it's a messagethat isn't understood or even
heard.
I mean, you really have to bein those trenches, so to speak,
and to really understand and seethat side of it the things that
you're seeing, the decisionsyou have to make, the dogs that
you're seeing, the dogs that youmake connections with, and

(23:02):
you're the only person that thatdog is connected to, and you're
the one that has to say goodbye, that's tough.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
It's hard Making that sentence recommend for
behavioral euthanasia.
Every time I write that I feellike I have to throw up.
I take that with me when Idrive home and that's every week
.
I condemn dogs to die everysingle week.
People on my Instagram,especially.
I'm very honest and open aboutsharing our victories and

(23:32):
sharing not our failures, butwhen we don't get the outcome
that we want, because it is thevery real reality that we're
facing and people need to knowthat.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Your Instagram page.
I recommend and we'll share itin the show notes, of course,
but I do recommend because it isvery uplifting and I'm very,
very just seeing the successstories, as you mentioned,
really does support a lot ofpeople out there and the work
they're doing.
I'm feeling this resiliencyfrom you.
So there's not a lot of peoplelike you when I talk about this

(24:05):
and I actually talked about itin a couple other episodes.
There's just something aboutpeople the people that are
working day in and day out withaggression cases or in the
horrific experiences that you'vehad that you just keep going.
There's this sort of calmness,in a way I was talking about
with Patricia McConnel.
We're kind of talking aboutresiliency as well.

(24:27):
There's just something thereand I don't know what it is and
there's somewhere to bediscovered, this secret sauce of
being able to keep doing this.
A lot of us can do it once, ormaybe can stomach it once, but
you're there doing it over andover and over.
Or the people that are workingaggression cases and seeing
clients breaking down in frontof them, crying over and over

(24:47):
and over because of thesedifficult decisions what has
shaped you to be so resilient,even in the face of making these
difficult decisions in thetrenches.
I mean you're in it.
I mean you're as deep into itas you can get in this world of
working with dogs.
What has helped you become soresilient and so strong in the
work that you do?

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yes, I like to say that so much of my life has been
shaped from situations ofcoming out of dark rooms.
Even now, many of the videosthat you'll see in my Instagram
is literally me sitting in adark room on the floor, a dirty
kennel floor, when there's a dogbearing teeth on the other side
of a fence and I'm just sittingthere with them.

(25:30):
We were chatting before and Iexplained that I am not doing
this work in spite of everythingthat's happened to me, but
because of what's happened to me.
We're working on writing a bookand sharing my experiences and
how they tie into the work thatI do, but I see so much of
myself in these dogs, even thedogs with complicated bite

(25:53):
histories.
We have had shelter dogs thathave had 37 level four bites.
It's yes, yes, so he's beenadopted.
Yay, snoopy.
It always comes back to whatyou see is not what you get.
I had a very tumultuouschildhood.
My father was very physicallyabusive, leading up to breaking

(26:17):
a glass face on my head.
He beat my sister very, verybadly when we were kids as well.
I was scared to live at home.
I was scared of my home, andthat is not something that I
found I could relate to my peers, to Most of my friends I felt
weren't dealing with this levelof domestic violence in their
home, and for me, my biggestescape was college.

(26:40):
So leaving this extremelychaotic and unsafe environment
at home and finally getting outto college, and the last night
of winter break I was roofiedand raped by someone who had
been my friend, I thought, forseveral years, and that night
changed everything for me.

(27:01):
I attempted suicide 30 dayslater so that is how my parents
found out was the hospital billand I had to start my life over
and I had to go back home.
So again I was put in thisenvironment where I felt unsafe.
And now I was trying to heal inan unsafe environment.

(27:25):
And that's exactly what I seein these talks.
Right, we are rehabilitatingthem, we are working with them
in a prison, in an environmentwhere they don't feel safe.
And you know what, when I wasn'tfeeling well, I lashed out.
I had so much misplaced angeron the people trying to help me
and there were days where Icouldn't get out of bed and I

(27:46):
couldn't eat.
I was diagnosed with mentalillness, bipolar disorder and
PTSD.
So now I had violence in thehome, I had this rape I was
dealing with and now mentalillness.
I dropped out of school.
I couldn't hold jobs, I mean,my whole life was turned upside
down, but you know what the onlyconstant was was these dogs.

(28:09):
So, no matter what changed, nomatter if I didn't feel like
getting up for my sake, therewas something else that needed
me, and it is such a spiritualexperience Working with them in
the darkness and there's no oneelse but you and this dog, and
they are mirror of what I usedto be and they are my redemption

(28:31):
.
I'd be so lost without the workthat I do, because it is my
salvation too, and my chance tostart over and to live this life
where I am in control and I'mable to do everything that I've
wanted to do, because one personbelieved in me and one person
believes in them.
That's exactly what happened tome.
I remember my friend Adrianwould come to my room.

(28:53):
I hadn't showered or eaten inthree days.
He'd say let's go for a walk,and all it took was one 15
minute walk to make a hugechange in my outlook and how I
felt and how the rest of theweek would go, knowing that I
had the power to do that forthese dogs?
When no one else believes inthem, when everyone else says
they're a lost cause, just putthem down.

(29:15):
There are enough problems we'redealing with in society.
There is no time or room forthese dogs in our lives and in
our communities.
But we all deserve at least achance, whether you're a human
or these dogs.
And again, so many of them werejust fine in their homes and
they end up in this situationfor circumstances completely out

(29:36):
of their control.
So it's almost like a religionto me.
Going to work.
I've never been so excited, andthat includes knowing that the
outcome for some of the dogsthat I'm going to work with
today, this day, is not going tobe what I want To have this
purpose.
It's such a blessing for me.
That's the biggest reason why Icould never see myself doing

(30:00):
anything else is because of thatrelationship that I've built
and some people may call ittrauma bonding right, but it's
so much bigger than that.
This is so much bigger than me.
But to be able to relate tothem on such through that
darkness and I am comfortablewith that darkness and perhaps
that's why I was attracted tothis type of work but just being

(30:24):
able to give them the chancethat I was given and to see that
same transformation andmetamorphosis that I have
experienced over and over in mylife is incredible, to me
incredible.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Well, I first want to thank you for making yourself
vulnerable and sharing yourstory.
Survival, I mean.
It's so powerful and so movingAt the same time.
It just I think there's manylisteners that probably can
relate and if you're listeningto this episode now we're
recording it in February here,but this episode is somewhere in

(30:57):
June you'll probably be hearingit and it's right after
Patricia McConnell's verypowerful episode and how trauma
can affect us in so manydifferent ways and how so many
powerful outcomes can occur fromour past traumas and the way
you've turned it into your storysurvival and positivity and

(31:18):
helping these dogs as well asnow.
I'm sure many listeners arelistening and hearing your story
, so thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
So I'd like to kind of continue along this.
You know, in the work thatyou're doing because you know
you mentioned, you've got thesedifficult decisions.
If you have, you see these dogsand you personally relate to
them so deeply because of yourpast experiences.
But then you have thesedecisions, you need to make the
behavioral euthanasia decisionsand you have to battle against.

(31:51):
You know this, this no killsort of theme and that's
pervasive in some of our culturenot all of our culture, but I
think it's a term that's used alot in the shelter world.
So how do you navigate thatconversation?
You know this whole.
You know the difference betweenno kill and what you have to do
in those difficult decisionsespecially, especially, with
what you've gone through.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Thank you.
And that is something thatpeople really need to understand
as well is maybe people havethe idea that I go in and
evaluate these dogs and I onlyrecommend behavioral euthanasia
for dogs that display a clearlevel of aggression to the point
where they are unhandleable.
So from the shelter standpoint,their main mission is public

(32:36):
safety.
So a lot of people have thisbelief that shelters exist for
pet adoptions.
That is, a secondary servicefor municipal shelters.
So government shelters werecreated and were founded for the
purpose of keeping strays offthe streets, maintaining public
safety.
So it first started withlivestock.
So it allowed farmers orranchers to reclaim their

(32:58):
livestock for money.
There was very little financialincentive for dogs or cats, so
those were generally cold in thebeginning.
Starting in the 60s 70s, wereally started pushing the idea
that, hey, the family dog can beadopted from your local pound
or your local animal shelter andsince then adoption has been a
cornerstone for Americanfamilies.

(33:20):
That is kind of the past.
So now what we're seeing withsuch a high influx of intakes
and the amount of dogs that weare currently working with in
shelters, we have to take somany factors into consideration.
So it's not just the blatantlyaggressive dogs quote unquote
that get euthanized.
So this is the main issue withthe no kill initiative is many

(33:45):
are largely underfunded orunfunded completely.
Now shelters are obligated tohold on to animals and are
granted, generally speaking, a10% euthanasia limit, so they
have to have a 90% or above liverelease rate.
That sounds great on paper,right?
We are getting more dogs out.

(34:05):
These shelters aren't allowedto euthanize at the rate they
were doing before.
But what is happening withthese dogs, Many of these dogs
again?
We have 200 other friendly dogsthat aren't getting adopted.
We used to see lines out thedoors for puppies.
Now puppies are growing up inshelters.
So what do we do with thisother section of the population
where they're not ready foradoption yet, but they're not

(34:28):
maybe clear candidates foreuthanasia?
So I hope you enjoyed it andgirls��.
We take so many factors intoconsideration when talking about
the prognosis or the pathwayfor a specific animal.
What is the demographic ofadopters that come into the
shelters?
Most of them are families, mostof them are senior citizens or
more inexperienced handlers orowners that have never had

(34:50):
anything beyond or seen anythingbeyond separation, anxiety or
maybe some leash reactivity,Whereas many of the dogs that
are being surrendered have bitehistories.
So there's a history ofresource guarding in their home
dog.
On dog aggression Many of thesedogs have documented kills on
livestock or other dogs.
What if the dog bit a childmultiple times in the household?

(35:12):
What if I'm sorry?

Speaker 1 (35:17):
Barking dogs are okay on the podcast, not too worried
.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
I've got two right now, both by cases.
So this guy, yeah, he wasactually pulled 15 minutes
before his euthanasia date, theone that we have now, yes, so
close call.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
He's allowed to bark.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yes, he is, he's actually a great example of this
because he had a bite incidentin the shelter.
He's very mouthy, so thehandler at that point in time
had a little bit thinner skin soalthough he, from what we
gathered, he displayed the samemouth pressure when mouthing
other people, but no bites brokethe skin.
This bite broke the skin.

(35:54):
They're automatically placed onthe euthanasia list, rescue
only with 72 hours to get themout.
So those are the limitationsthat we are working with on
these dogs.
Most people don't understand.
We don't have infinite time,resources.
Staffing these shelters are outof room.
We're doubling up on kennels.
There's a huge turnover forstaff.

(36:14):
Many are still continuing toget sick with COVID, the flu and
everything else that's goingaround this season.
They're still trying to takevacations because they
absolutely deserve it, just likeanyone else working in any
industry.
So we're left with these toughdecisions.
We cannot save every single dogas much as we would like to.
So, understanding where we drawthat line and that line may

(36:37):
move throughout the weekdepending on where that shelter
is at and the workload that theycurrently experience or the
staffing that they currentlyhave, and rather than painting
the shelter staff or people likeme who evaluate dogs as evil
for doing what we have to do.
Why don't we start looking atwhy these dogs are in that

(36:58):
position in the first place?
What can we do on the intakeside of it or what can we do to
support our communities so thesedogs don't end up in shelters
in the first place?
And that has been a huge focusand a huge shift in the shelter
industry is community basedservices, especially behavioral
and medical, to support thechallenges these owners are
facing.
And that, in turn, has atrickle effect there's fewer

(37:21):
dogs in the shelters.
The shelters don't have to askfor more room or more money
because there's fewer dogs forthem to care for.
Now, the dogs that are theremaybe do have to be there, maybe
they are a threat to publicsafety, but the shelters are now
able to focus on these harder,more challenging dogs, call in
specialists to help assist them,working with them, and now we

(37:41):
have a better grasp and abilityto cope with everything that's
been going on.
So it's not black and white.
People really need tounderstand and, from the human
side of it, again, we're bondingwith these dogs.
There are essentially our dogs,before they go home to you,
before they get pulled to ashelter.
Every single staff member I'vetalked to has their own whiskey

(38:04):
foxtrot.
They have their own story, justlike me, where they have
personally worked with, bondedwith and gotten some progress
with the dog, but in the end thedecision was made to euthanize
them because of all these otherfactors that are outside of our
control.
That doesn't make us bad people.
That just means that we have tofind other solutions and come
to grasp with the reality of theindustry right now.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
So much wisdom there and so much insight that if
you're listening to this episoderight now and you really want
to help the shelter staff outthere, share this episode,
because just that little segmentright there packs so much
information that needs to getout there into the world for
people to hear.
So, really, I thank you forsharing all of that and
condensing it so nicely too intothis perfect sound by itself.

(38:48):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
I'm getting better at becoming concise.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
yes, You're like a good spokesperson too, so I am
going to take a quick break tohear a word from our sponsors
and when we come back we'regoing to talk a little bit more
on the behavior side of thingstoo.
Stay tuned, we'll be back injust a moment.
Hey friends, don't forget tojoin me for the fourth annual

(39:13):
aggression and dogs conference,either in person or online from
Chicago Illinois, happening fromSeptember 29 through October 1,
2023.
This year's lineup includesmany of the amazing guests
you've heard on the podcast,including Sue Sternberg, dr Tim
Lewis, dr Christine Calder,sintor Bangau, sarah Stremming,

(39:34):
sean Will and Masa Nishimuta,and many more.
Head on over toaggressivedogcom and click on
the conference tab to learn moreabout the exciting agenda on
everything from advancedconcepts and veterinary behavior
cases to working withaggression in shelter
environments to intra-householddog-dog aggression.
We'll also have special guestMCs, taylor Barkoni and Gio

(39:56):
Alcade, who are sure to bringtheir positive and uplifting
vibe to the conference and, asusual, you'll find a wonderful,
kind, caring and supportivecommunity at the conference,
both in person and online.
I also want to take a moment tothank one of our wonderful
sponsors this year Pets for Vets.

(40:16):
Did you know that approximatelyone million shelter animals are
euthanized in the US every year.
At the same time, many of ourcountry's veterans are
experiencing post-traumaticstress disorder, traumatic brain
injury, anxiety and ordepression.
Pets for Vets founder andexecutive director, clarissa
Black, created a solution forthese problems by rescuing and

(40:39):
training animals for veterans.
Pets for Vets has a uniqueprogram model that customizes
each match to create what iscalled a super bond.
Each animal is selected andtrained specifically for each
veteran, based on matchingpersonality and temperament
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Additionally, clarissa hasdeveloped an assessment protocol

(41:00):
called ACE or ACE, that allowsother animals, the choice and
agency to participate in thePets for Vets program, based on
their response to multiplestimuli.
Pets for Vets has a positivereinforcement mentality at its
core for animals, veterans andtrainers.
In addition to helping veteransand rescue animals, clarissa

(41:21):
has created a generousopportunity for positive
reinforcement trainers to joinher organizations.
Trainers are able toparticipate from anywhere in the
US while receiving stipends,professional development
opportunities and maintaining aflexible schedule.
For more information, pleasevisit PetsforVetscom.
That's PetsforVetscom, alright,welcome back.

(41:50):
We're here with Sadie Salazarand we are talking about a lot
in this episode.
It's been a really, really deepand insightful episode, so I
thank you again.
I would love to switch gears alittle bit.
Since we are an aggressionpodcast, check out Sadie's work
on Instagram because you can seesome of the techniques I'd love

(42:10):
to jump into that.
You go in, you've got a dogthat's barking and lunging at
you at the kennel door A lot ofwhat we might typically see.
But I really want to touch uponthe differences because it's a
whole different world.
We see things like when youhear something like a slip lead
and in some circles you're like,oh my gosh, slip lead, you're
terrible.
Don't ever touch those slipleads In this shelter

(42:33):
environment.
It's just a common tool formoving a dog from point A to
point B.
Yes, they can be abused justlike anything else, but it's the
last thing on somebody that'srunning 50 dogs in and out a day
to be thinking, oh yeah, nowI've got to put on a harness on
every single dog just becausesomebody says so.
In terms of the aggressionstuff, your approach to the
kennel is much different.
Dogs are already going to beover-threshold, so we don't

(42:55):
really think about threshold inthose moments.
But what are some of your triedand true things that you do?
Counter-conditioning?
Is there certain techniques youuse to approach kennels?
How do you make friends withthese dogs.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
First and foremost is being mindful of the
environment that they're in.
So again, we are placing thesedogs in what is perhaps one of
the most stressful, acute,stressful situations they can be
in.
But they're experiencing thatchronically.
So we have high cortisol levelsthroughout the day.
These dogs aren't gettingenough sleep at all, even at

(43:27):
night.
So we do see periods where,usually around lunchtime, most
of the dogs tend to calm downand again later on in the
afternoon or evening.
I do use a slip lead.
Thank you for bringing up aslip lead.
So, just so everyone knows, Ilove harnesses and long lines.
That being said, one of theshelters that I work with has no
collars on their dogs, so theydon't have any collars to begin

(43:50):
with.
Slip leads are absolutely, Ifeel, the safest and quickest
way to transport dogs quickly,get them out of their kennel.
So one nice thing I like doingis making a nice big loop.
But before we even get to thatpoint, I'm a huge, huge, huge
proponent.
My number one trick to this isjust classical counter
conditioning and desensitization.
So there are a lot of greatapproaches to working aggression

(44:14):
cases.
So we have cat and bat, which Ipersonally love using with
private clients.
But keeping these limitationsin mind.
We don't often have time topull multiple handlers and
multiple dogs or work with teams, so we are working triggers
using those approaches.
We need multiple people Again.
These staff members havehundreds of other dogs to care

(44:36):
for.
They barely get their cleaningdone on time.
They can't even break all thesedogs.
So having this expectation thatstaff members are going to have
even 20 minutes to work withone dog is out the window right
now.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
So for me, when you say, when you say break these
dogs, meaning giving them abreak just because we have some
that might take that the wrongway.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Sorry, yes, thank you for that I mean break them from
their kennels.
Yes, so that is.
My main goal is to get the dogout of their kennel into a yard,
that nice open space.
They don't feel less pressured.
But again, what is thesituation like when we're first
approaching these dogs, or me,for instance, when I'm working
in aggression case?
They are trapped, they have noway to get out and they know it.

(45:23):
So they are going to display amuch higher intensity in terms
of behavioral responses than wewould see in many everyday
interactions because we'repushing them to the very edge.
So, being very mindful that,again, this may be a response
and often is a response that isrooted in fear, distress,
anxiety and approaching it thatway, rather than I need to get

(45:45):
this dog to comply and let himtouch me, I call it the
compliance lens.
So we tend to rely a lot onobedience to, I think as a whole
in the dog training industry totry to coax these changes in
our dogs.
But I'm all about creating anew conditioned emotional
response.
So, rather than trying to forcethe dog to get them to do what

(46:08):
I want to do, I want the dog tofeel better about the situation.
So in turn, we get a differentbehavioral response for
something that the staff have todo every single day, like pass
by a kennel or feed them food.
So, honestly, the biggest trickto this all is just feeding
through the kennel.
So nice, classical counterconditioning.
What we're doing is pairing thesight of a person.

(46:29):
So that's a very common triggerin shelter dogs.
Even if they're friendly, theywill often start becoming again
that stress, that distress, thatanxiety gets to them.
Every time a person passes by.
They'll react.
So they start barking, lunging,burying teeth, so they may even
start air snapping.
So, creating a new positiveassociation and this can be very
simple we just hang littletreat, either pails or dishes,

(46:53):
outside of each kennel.
I always recommend that everystaff member carry a treat pouch
with them as well.
Food is such a powerful tool.
There is so much that isoutside of our control in this
industry.
One way we can easily work withthese dogs as we're going on
our day to day care is justfeeding them.
Every time we pass by, thesedogs look at me and think oh my
God, the hot dog lady is coming.
Oh my God, there's a chickennugget lady.

(47:15):
That's what I want to be seenas.
Once we get to that point we canstart generalizing it with
other people.
If one person in particularmakes that, forms that bond and
builds that trust Once we getone person, it's just a matter
of repetition at that point.
Generally speaking, I have onetest.
I call it the door latch test.

(47:36):
So I'll go over this in theconference as well.
It is probably my very simplenumber one test or temperature
check that will kind of I don'twant to say set in stone
determine the prognosis of a dog.
But how they react when I openthat latch and open the door is

(47:56):
going to tell us a lot about howcomfortable they're going to be
moving forward.
So so many staff members willjust see that aggression.
Again, it's defensiveaggression, but they'll still
see that aggression.
If I open the door and the dogruns away, that's going to be a
much safer case for mosthandlers that's volunteers and
staff to work with than a dogthat is trying to burst through,
that is biting at that kenneldoor.

(48:18):
So speaking realistically,again, keeping that liability of
the shelters in mind, if moststaff members or all of them are
unable to safely even leash adog, handle them or touch them
in any way, the prognosis isgenerally going to be very poor,
but I think most people havebeen hesitant to even open the
door or try that.

(48:39):
But again, what we see is notalways what we get.
So many dogs will run, they'llrun away, they'll run to the
back of the kennel andunderstanding, yes, it is fear
based, it is stress based.
I can work with this.
It's going to take a little bitlonger, but the liability is
much less than, again, one thatis displaying offensive
aggression.
It's.

(48:59):
I also understand the the safetypart of it.
So I know that was a big partof our conversation before was
empowering these staff andvolunteers to not only equip
themselves with tools that willkeep them safe, but knowing how
to use them.
So the more we empower andteach these handlers, these
staff and volunteers are morecomfortable and prepared they

(49:20):
will be to deal with these cases.
But after you've done it overand over again, you start to
pick up on these patterns and Iam now at the point where I feel
very comfortable hey, this isgoing to take a long time, this
is safe, this isn't, and I willstill.
Okay, I'm going to becompletely honest to you.
I will push the envelope myself.
I don't know if it's an egothing, but sometimes I will come
up with a dog, will I'll sayyou know, this probably isn't

(49:42):
safe, I won't have other staffwork with them, but I'll see how
far I can get with thatparticular dog, and sometimes it
ends in a bite.
It's very tricky line, but Ithink that empowerment is such a
huge part of it too, and justteaching them, and this is why
the mentoring and shadowing isso important.
This is a huge issue.
With evaluations, my notes aregoing to be a lot different than

(50:05):
someone else's who work withthat dog a different day.
So, just like us, ourtolerances and our thresholds
fluctuate throughout the day,depending on the day, depending
on the hour, depending on theweek, how much sleep we got and
my hungry.
I'm going to be way lesstolerable of certain things.
Then, if I got a good night'ssleep, I'm feeling well fed.
So, being mindful of that andjust approaching it in a manner

(50:27):
where we can make the most outof that time and having that
person with me so I can explain,this is what I'm seeing right.
This is why I'm approachingthis dog this particular way.
This is why I'm using thistechniques, and a big question
is always how do you know thatit's safe to go in that kennel,
and that is my biggest test isthat door latch test and many

(50:47):
dogs will turn and flee at thatpoint and that's when you can
observe and say this is going tobe a little bit safer.
It's going to take a littlelonger, but it's not that
blatant.
They have a picture in theirheads and so many of these dogs
are just labeled aggressive.
That label doesn't give us anyinformation, right?

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Right, and I think subconsciously there you're
actually just doing a lot ofthat.
First because you want toprotect the volunteers, because
we know volunteers are hard tocome by, in the shelter
environment at least to keepthem there for a long time,
right we?

Speaker 2 (51:20):
have three at one shelter.
That's it, yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yeah, yeah, and that's that's to the general
theme of traveling around again,meeting lots of shelter staff
is.
One of the hardest aspects isgetting volunteers, training
them and then keeping them,because they often they don't
stick around for long, or it'sit's because it's tough work.
It really is Okay.
So let's dive into.
You.
Get the dog out of the kennel,you start working with them.

(51:43):
You're out in the yard.
Do you have anything that youknow that you found works the
best in most of your cases?
So you're building arelationship with them.
You don't put any hard trainingpressure.
You're not like sit down, stayin all those.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
No, it's so boring.
Yeah, so most of it is allowingthe dog to decompress and
approach when they feel ready.
So I guess it is kind of likethe back approach, where I'm
giving the dog enough agency tochoose when and how to interact

(52:16):
with me by utilizing open space,so as big of a yard as possible
.
This will often mean I willalways leave the drag leash on
as well, so very important formy safety.
I don't know how this dog isgoing to react.
There's no owner history on it.
I've never worked with itbefore.
So for safety's sake I do leavea drag leash on, but for the
first 15, 20 minutes I amsitting down, no hands on this

(52:37):
dog.
I'm not trying to interact withthem at all.
Again, I'm mindful that theyhave likely been in their kennel
for over a week, especially ifit's a dog I evaluate for
aggressive behavior that they'reseeing at the shelter.
The dog probably hasn't beenout of their kennel in weeks to
months.
So a big part of my approach isallowing the dog to urinate,
eliminate, sniff around,decompress and take in that

(52:59):
environment, even though it'soutside and it may be peaceful
to meet.
It's a whole new place for thisdog.
So many of them you can seethey're rapid scanning.
They're still a little bit onedge.
So one of the mistakes I see alot of staff is they move in too
quickly with that handling.
So vet staff as well.
We have had so many instancesrecently where dogs have been

(53:21):
great with the care staff.
But we've seen issues with thevet staff and the approach is
many care staff will leash thedog up, take them out into the
yard and leave them alone for 20minutes, whereas vet staff have
20 other dogs to see withinthat hour.
So they leash the dog up, takethem into the medical room or
intake room and then start theirexam right away.
So we get that difference inobservations and interactions.

(53:46):
And now we have competingreports for this dog and we're
like, hey, what do we do withthem?
So that prognosis is helped somuch by just allowing that dog
to do whatever they need to dofor the first 15, 20 minutes.
And when I start handling backin the day, I mean we would hold
a dog by the leash and juststart massaging down its back,

(54:09):
like again, this dog doesn'tknow me, I built no relationship
with it.
Who am I?
So how can I have thisexpectation that he's going to
be okay with it.
So, again, allowing that agencyfor that dog to approach.
When they approach me, I'lloften just hold my hands out to
my side.
I'm not reaching towards themto pet, I'll just hold an open

(54:29):
palm out to see how theyinteract with my palm.
Temperature and consent checksare so important, not only at
this stage, which sets the tonefor the relationships, the
ongoing relationships, this dogwill have with other staff
members.
If I mess this up and move toofast, that will stick around, so
that dog will remember that.
So it's definitely my job to goas slowly as possible to again

(54:55):
granting these dogs as muchconsent as I can, while
maintaining my safety but alsokeeping that time limit in mind.
That's always just looming overour heads and I'm going to ask
you a question.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
You probably get a lot, but you've now handled
thousands of dogs, I'm sure.
So if you had a average numberof times you need to greet a dog
where they're actually you feellike this dog really likes me
now, or you get to the point oflike this dog is made some great
changes, or you feel isadoptable, or whatever the
issues.
Let's say it's a dog to humanaggression case and or it's

(55:27):
displaying behaviors that you'resaying go away kind of behavior
.
Yes, On average, like.
So if you take like all thedogs you work with that have
that issue, what's the averagenumber of times you need to meet
with them for four there?

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Two to three, it can be as little as one, especially
if we're looking at a case withdefensive aggression and it's
mainly rooted in fear.
I like to have a little bitlonger sections with these dogs
but once I get them out of thatkennel that first time, usually
they don't reset a second time.
If it's a little bit moreoffensive, then the sessions

(56:02):
take a little bit longer.
But that is one thing I've beenreally trying to demonstrate to
any handler working withshelter dogs specifically is,
generally speaking, it does nottake a long time and I feel a
big reason for that is becauseI'm so patient and slow in the
beginning.
I'm setting this tone where I'mallowing the dog to pick and

(56:24):
choose again how and how oftenthey want to interact with me,
setting that tone for futurerelationships.
Again, we're conditioning,we're counter conditioning, so
it's not magic.
I don't think it takes very,very long.
But I'm also cognizant thatthis is just one dog.
So if we multiply that by, say,a shelter has a hundred
challenging dogs, it's going tobe very difficult for us to

(56:47):
reach that milestone.
But for a specific dog so somehave taken several months and
others I'd say most fall betweenone and three sessions and they
often range from 20 minutes to45.
So it's really not much longerthan that.
I don't have much more timethan that if I want to get
through my list, and that also.
I want to be cognizant thatbecause there is a time limit, I

(57:10):
will sometimes I willdefinitely not sometimes have to
tweak how fast we approachsomething.
So one particular dog, magnolia,that I've been working with, I
had her out of the, so theshelter kind of gave me a
deadline with her.
She's been great with me.
But because that deadline wasgiven now I had to speed up the
generalization process, whichcan take a long time in a

(57:31):
shelter, given that they onlyhave a few minutes a day to
interact with this dog.
So what I did was I took herout.
She was great with me on leash.
We started doing trail walkswith other staff members.
We started with one, then movedto two no more than two at a
time.
She has done great with thesepeople and it's only taking
about five to 10 minutes oftheir day.
So, realistically speaking, Ican approach management, I can

(57:54):
start the relationship buildingprocess with this dog, but we
can generalize it within five to10 minutes in one day and by
the end of the session becausewe start working outside of the
kennel she's eating out of theirhands.
I mean she's just blossomingbeautifully.
I might have not approachedthat method if we had a little
bit more time.
So I do recommend most staffstart building that relationship

(58:17):
cage side before they evenreach in an attempt to take a
dog like this out.
If time is a factor and theseshelters have given me a
deadline, I'll find a way tospeed it up, but again keeping
ethics in mind.
So I'm constantly reading her,engaging how she's doing.
I don't want to push her overwhat she feels comfortable with,
because that will becounterproductive, but making

(58:37):
sure that we're moving at a pacethat not only everyone feels
comfortable with but that willincrease her prognosis and make
the prospect of her leavingalive much more viable.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
So shout out to Magnolia and the work you're
doing.
That's so great and everythingyou're saying.
It really echoes with you.
Know, the same thing I've seenin my clients.
You know that one to threesessions is typically the
average for the dog to say, hey,this guy's actually pretty cool
, he's a hot dog guy or whateveryou know.
But it's also more so than that.
I mean it's.
It is, yes, counterconditioning, but it's building

(59:12):
that relationship, that trustthe dog can feel safe, because
safety is really the mostimportant thing, right for the
dog to feel safe.
And when we create that by whatwe do and how we move and how
we interact with the dog, itjust it really is where the
magic happens.
So you're going to be talkingalso speaking of the aggression
in dogs conference, so I'd loveto hear a little bit more about
what you're going to bepresenting on there.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
Yes, so my Instagram.
That's probably our biggestsocial media channel, really my
only social media channel rightnow, but my videos are set up in
a way where I have clips thatusually before and afters of me
working with these dogs, withyou know, some nice music in the
background, and my goal forthis conference is to not have

(59:54):
that music in the background,but to explain exactly what I'm
doing, step by step, with thesecase studies man, not only as
one of them.
And what I really like abouther in particular is because I
have had so many realisticlimitations placed on me.
So when you first approached meabout speaking, I'm definitely
using cases that I've workedwith in the past, but I wanted

(01:00:16):
to start picking new casestudies so it could be even more
relevant with what we'redealing with in this time and
place.
And when the shelter message melike, hey, what are we going to
do with her, I got so stressedout.
My first thought was, oh, thisis going out the window.
Now I can't use this case.
But of course I can.
I absolutely should, becauseshe, specifically, is a great

(01:00:39):
example of how the fate of manyof these dogs even if we start
making progress, that limit isalways looming behind us.
So, again, her outcome isn'tguaranteed, even though we've
had tremendous progress withthis particular dog.
I wanted to show not only what Ido and why I do what I do with
them, so what I'm seeing,explaining the behaviors, the

(01:01:00):
differences between theoffensive and the defensive
aggression.
I also want to give cases whereI fail the dog.
So I want to demonstrate thisis, in particular, why this dog
was recommended for behavioraleuthanasia, so people can see
the complexity of it, how it'snot just, oh, it bit someone in
the household, it's getting putdown so very much.

(01:01:20):
We try to take as much intocontext, but illustrating the
difficulties and how we've hadto tweak things with not only so
much as out of our control, butso much is unknown.
Right, so many of thesebehaviors aren't translated into
the home and vice versa.
So that's one of the reasonswhy shelters have moved away
from food guarding tests isbecause we have found through

(01:01:42):
studies that is, it is not areliable indicator of behavior
in the home.
So, definitely all encompassing, I will focus on case studies
specifically of dogs that aredeemed aggressive, put on the
euthanasia list, and I'm given adeadline.
So very much with that time inmind.
With staffing limitations,resource limitations, space

(01:02:03):
limitations, what do we do toget this dog out alive?
And again, my focus istechniques and applications that
can be easily translated intothe everyday care tasks of these
shelters, keeping in mindeverything that they're facing.
And that's the biggestdifference I've seen between

(01:02:24):
training with or working withprivate client dogs versus the
shelter dogs.
It's there's other peoplemaking a call.
We don't have them going into ahome where we can manage the
environment and the triggers andthe exposure to these triggers
and again give this feeling ofsafety that is very much lacking
in the shelter that we don'thave control over.

(01:02:46):
So it's all about increasing theprognosis of these euthanasia
listed dogs with very practical,relatively easy techniques.
So I want to always teachpeople in a way where everyone
can learn.
So there, of course, aretechniques that we can apply
that require more skill and moreknowledge, and we are not
working with that demographic ofpeople.

(01:03:07):
So how can we again empowerthese caretakers to be able to
improve the livelihoods of thesedogs in the long run and their
communities as well?
It's a community service.
We have to remember that firstand foremost.
So that will be my case.
Yes, yeah, all about the peopleand the dogs and working
together.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Oh, I'm so looking forward to that talk.
It sounds like you're going topack in so much useful
information.
And you mentioned yourInstagram as well, so can you
tell people where to find thatand anything else you're working
on?

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Absolutely so.
We are at Wolf Mother K9.
That's letter K, number ninealtogether, and we do mostly so
we showcase a lot of our shelterwork there and please feel free
to reach out at any pointduring direct message.
You can leave us a comment.
We also have our website,wwwwolfmotherk9.com.

(01:03:58):
We are working on a YouTubechannel, so that is something we
want to have up and coming toagain, maybe break down a little
bit better of what we're doing.
I love the way I set up myvideos, but I don't do a lot of
explaining within the actualvideos themselves.
So that is going to be a bigfocus of ours.
And we're also creating videosfor shelters to be playing in
their lobbies.

(01:04:18):
So if people have dogs thatthey're surrendering at that
point in time, hey, maybe we cangive, if not information that
will help them, maybe provideresources.
So another avenue for them tohopefully get the help they need
.
So we prevent the dogs fromshowing up in the shelters in
the first place.
Another thing we're working onwe have a lot, so it's an app,

(01:04:39):
it's a QR code that will helpshowcase videos and photos of
dogs outside of their kennels.
That is so huge.
So most of the public when theyenter a shelter, all they see
is a very, very stressed out dogand what is essentially a
prison cell.
So they move on.
They feel that that dog isn'tnecessarily the best fit for
their lifestyle or what they'relooking at.

(01:04:59):
No one wants a barking, lungingdog, but if we were able to see
that dog in the play yard or ina foster home or in the office
or we're big proponents ofoffice dogs as well, so using
shelter dogs, giving them alittle break to just hang out in
the office with the staff there, would increase again the
adoptability and prognosis of somany of these dogs.
So we've got a lot in the works.

(01:05:21):
Right now we're creating onlinemaster programs for shelters to
use wherever they may be at.
Again, a lot of what we do canbe shown best in person, but
there are absolutely ways we canutilize videos and other means
to explain again what we'redoing and why we're doing it.
Because our biggest goal is toempower every single person that

(01:05:42):
wants to learn to be able toimprove the lives of shelter
dogs wherever they may be at.
In their own communities, intheir own backyards, there are
dogs that are dying that needthe help.
So thankfully, there are a lotof people that are interested in
learning, and I'm learningalong the way, so continue
education has to be a goal ofeveryone as well.
So, again, like these resourceguarding tests, if new

(01:06:04):
information becomes available tous, we need to be open to it.
So we are also working onincorporating everything that we
stay on top of these newstudies so we can share that
information with everyone elsetoo.
So our biggest focus willabsolutely be education for
shelter staff and volunteersthrough the use of different
websites and apps and hopefullyempower as many people as

(01:06:27):
possible to help us in thismission, because it is.
It does take a village and it'sa huge effort.
But definitely back to yourquestion did this whole loop
around is?
Instagram is definitely our goto, so check us out and what we
do and how we're changing thelives of these dogs every single
day.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
And, as usual, I'll make sure I link to all of that
in the show notes.
Sada, thank you so much for allyou're doing and for coming on
the show.
I really had a greatconversation with you, so thank
you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Thank you so much for having me, Michael.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
I truly want to send my deep appreciation to Sada for
her dedication to shelter dogsand for sharing her journey with
us.
Her story is so inspirationaland she's such an incredible
gift to our community.
And don't forget, Sada will bepresenting at the aggression and
dogs conference this year.
You can head on over toaggressivedogcom for more

(01:07:22):
information about the conferenceand to register.
We have an incredible lineup ofspeakers this year, including
Sue Sternberg, Dr ChristinaSpalding, E Reed Bloom, Dr
Wailani Sung, Dr ChristineCalder, Dr Tim Luce and so many
more.
I hope to see you there.
Thanks again for listening andstay well, my friends.

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