Not in My House! Stranger Danger Aggression with Lisa Mullinax

What drives some dogs to react aggressively toward strangers while being perfectly lovely with their families? In this enlightening conversation, Lisa Mullinax draws from her two decades of experience working with over 4,500 dogs to unpack the complexities of stranger-directed aggression.

Rather than relying on vague labels like "protective" or "territorial," Lisa focuses on observable behaviors and what they tell us about a dog's emotional state. She shares her own powerful story of living with Mac, a dog who severely bit a teenager, which launched her journey into behavior work. This personal experience infuses her approach with both empathy for guardians and a clear-eyed view of the risks involved.

About Lisa:

https://www.serenitycanine.com/about

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
In this episode, I sit down with Lisa Mullinax to
explore the complexities ofstranger-directed aggression in
dogs, a topic that affectscountless pet guardians and
professionals alike.
We unpack the differentmotivations behind aggressive
behavior, from fear to conflictto pain, and how our response as
caregivers can shape theoutcome.

(00:24):
Lisa shares her deep experiencein shelters and private
practice, helping us understandwhat these dogs are trying to
communicate and how we canmanage risk while still offering
support and compassion.
Lisa is a certified dogbehavior consultant with over
two decades of experiencehelping families and their dogs
navigate challenges like fear,reactivity and aggression.

(00:46):
She's worked with more than4,500 dogs across 250 breeds and
has developed behavior programsfor leading shelters, including
Seattle Humane and theSacramento SPCA.
As the founder of SerenityCanine, lisa focuses on
practical, positive andcollaborative strategies that

(01:07):
consider the emotional needs ofboth dogs and their humans.
And before we jump into today'sepisode, a quick heads up If
you're looking to learn moreabout helping dogs with
aggression issues, head on overto AggressiveDogcom, because
we've got something for everyone.
For pet pros, there's theAggression in Dogs Master Course
, which is the mostcomprehensive course available

(01:27):
on aggression, which is packedwith expert insights and CEUs.
For dog guardians, check outReal Life Solutions, which is a
practical course for everydaychallenges like leash reactivity
, resource guarding anddog-to-dog aggression, and if
you want full access to expertwebinars, live mentor sessions
and exclusive discounts, theUltimate Access Membership is

(01:50):
just $29.95 a month.
You'll also find info on the2025 Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening inCharlotte this September.
That's all at aggressivedogcom.
Check it out after the show.
Calm.
Check it out after the show.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.

(02:11):
This week we are jumping intothe topic of stranger aggression
, and I couldn't think ofanybody else better to talk
about this than Lisa Mullinax,who I've known sort of loosely
for years.
I've followed her work andwe've been friends on social
media for a long time, and we doa lot of similar things in our
line of work, so I can't wait todive into that topic, but we're

(02:31):
going to first define whatstranger aggression is.
So welcome to the show, lisa.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
So stranger-directed aggression, or sometimes what
people refer to as strangerdanger cases.
How do you define strangerdirected aggression?

Speaker 2 (02:46):
You know it does frequently get labeled as
stranger danger, but that's kindof a broader umbrella and that
can include dogs that areavoidant of people.
It can also include dogs thatare reactive to people but then
never display aggression, neverbite, never make contact.
Then never display aggression,never bite, never make contact.

(03:08):
So I define stranger-directedaggression as offensive,
aggressive displays andbehaviors directed at unfamiliar
people, and by offensive I meanthis is not a dog that snaps
because a stranger presentstheir hand right for sniffing.
These are typically dogs thatsomeone comes into the home and
they're charging right in.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
I think that's one of the confusions that are out
there too, or misconceptions, isthat when we think of strangers
, it's like all directed atstrangers, right so, whatever
they're doing.
But it could be, you know, astranger comes in the home and
touches the dog's bone or food,right.
So when you say offensive, howdo you differentiate that
between like defensiveaggression of a dog that's just
fearful of strange people comingto the home?

Speaker 2 (03:48):
I think there are some dogs that have a lower
tolerance for interactions withunfamiliar people and those can
certainly be defensive.
Like I said, the person comesinto the home and the dog is
largely avoidant, and then thatvisitor goes to pet the dog and
the dog might growl and snap.
While that's still aggressivebehavior, I don't put that under

(04:09):
stranger directed because it'sa reaction to the interaction,
not the stranger themselves.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Okay, I got it.
So the dogs I'm picturing thenare stranger.
Comes onto property and the dogjust goes for them because they
are in terms of the motivation,right.
Well, let's actually dive intothat.
Yeah, in terms of motivation,we sometimes say it's fear or
protection of resources orterritory, which I consider sort
of a resource.
But you want to dive into thatside of things, like if somebody

(04:39):
says, well, what's thedifference between territorial,
or a dog that's fearful, or adog that's maybe a livestock
guardian dog protecting whatthey consider their flock, right
, expand more on that.
Help me understand that.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Sure, and this is a question that comes up from
clients all the time right, Ishe being protective?
Is he being territorial?
What are the motivations behindthis?
What I tell the clients andwhat I have to remind myself all
the time is only the dog knows.
Only the dog knows if they areprotecting their territory,
protecting their person orprotecting themselves from a

(05:11):
perceived threat.
So, personally, I tend to skipover those types of labels and
just go right into what can weobserve?
What can we affect?

Speaker 1 (05:21):
And if you're going to find help in using labels for
some of the other stuff to useit like.
So if you want to help a client, say, well, this could happen
to you because the dog'sprotecting a resource you know.
So you see something obvious,like it's only happening around
the food or a particular restingspot in the home.
Do you then make distinctions?

Speaker 2 (05:41):
I will.
If the client is using a labelthat the behavior doesn't match.
They might call it resourceguarding or lap guarding if the
dog is on the couch but thebehavior doesn't fit the
patterns of resource guardingRight.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
So then I might clarify that way, but you know,
at this point in my career Idon't find the labels to be
super helpful for me.
Yeah, I like to really justfocus on the things that we can
observe and the things we canaffect.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Spoken like a true behaviorist, looking at the ABCs
right yeah and looking at theobservable behaviors.
Yeah, all right, so let's backup then.
So then the dogs that you wouldput in that stranger directed
aggression category are the onesthat are displaying that
behavior of lunging, biting,closing distance to the stranger
, yes, the function of makingthem go away.

(06:35):
Right, right, okay, got it,okay.
So then you also mentioned theavoidant and the reactive dogs
that maybe don't bite.
Avoidant in the reactive dogsthat maybe don't bite, so we're
observing behaviors that are,you know, weight shifts away,
moving away, barking, that kindof thing, maybe vocalizing,

(06:57):
whining.
Okay, got it.
So let's talk.
Well, maybe give us a personalexperience about some of these
stranger directed aggressioncase, then, or some of the cases
you've worked Well.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
You know my personal experience starts from the very
beginning, when I was just theaverage pet guardian and you
know would have been yourtypical client.
My first dog as an adult was adog.
I got in a box outside of agrocery store, under socialized
because we didn't have theinternet to tell us about
socialization in the early 90sand, you know, started

(07:26):
displaying some signs ofaggression pretty early on.
Had a few incidents that, likethe average person, I excused
away.
Right, well, it was theperson's fault because they did
this, because they did that.
And fast forward seven years.
I was out with Mac, out in frontof my house, and a group of

(07:48):
teenagers walked by and asked ifthey could pet my dog and I
said, sure, I shouldn't have,but I did.
And, as the average person does, they kind of go with that.
Well, let's see what he does,let's see if he's okay.
I'm sure it's probably going tobe okay, right, and he was with

(08:08):
most of the kids.
They walked by and kind ofbriefly pet him, but then a
teenage girl walked up and shegrabbed him on both sides of the
head, looked deep into his eyesand you know this was that
moment.
I didn't know anything aboutbody language, but I had that
moment of feeling something waswrong, because now I know he'd

(08:30):
frozen.
And then he jumped up and bither in the face and she had over
50 stitches, two cosmeticsurgeries to repair the damage.
Mac was seized by animalcontrol, ended up with a
dangerous dog designation.
It was every pet guardian'sworst nightmare.

(08:55):
Yeah, that experienceimmediately taught me that dogs
are not one thing.
You can have a dog that is verydangerous with strangers, that
is the most wonderful pet athome and with the people in
their circle of trust, and thatfit Mac to a T.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, I'm sorry to hear about that incident.
Of course we know in the workwe do just how impactful and
emotional and the effects thatcan have on us as guardians, you
know, and of course as trainers.
You know we see the effects ifthat happens under our watch or
we have clients that experiencethat If you get into aggression
work you start to see a lot,unfortunately.

(09:37):
But that's of course the workwe do.
So that I'm assuming reallyaffected how much you were
deciding to work with trainingand aggression cases eventually.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
It did, it did, and it wasn't something I set out to
do intentionally.
I started assisting thebehavior consultant who helped
me, a wonderful woman namedAngie Neal.
She's out in Colorado, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
And I started helping Angie and Angie would approach
me and say hey, lisa, you knowthese students are having some
similar problems that you hadwith Mac.
Can you talk to them a littlebit about your experience and
what you do?
And you know I found it reallyhelped people.
And then, you know, I keptlearning more and one of the

(10:25):
wonderful things about Angie wasshe really, really focused on
continuing education.
It was like we're going to goto this seminar, we're going to
go to this conference, and themore I learned, the more I
wanted to help.
And it was a few years laterwhen she said, okay, you're
going to go see this client nowand kind of launched me into

(10:50):
this crazy business that we'rein.
But yeah, it's definitely oneof the reasons why I am
comfortable taking these casesand why I am comfortable taking
some pretty severe cases.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, yeah, we've lived it and that, of course,
allows you to be a veryeffective consultant, because
you can empathize with theclients right and you understand
the risks.
And speaking of risks, we cankind of look at that next,
because your background you havea very strong background in
shelter work, shelter behavior.
So let's talk about that interms of assessing the risk,

(11:25):
because we have a very strongbackground in shelter work,
shelter behavior.
So let's talk about that interms of assessing the risk,
because we have a lot oftrainers listening in.
We have a lot of dog guardiansas well listening in.
So, when you're consideringrisks, what do you look at?
And helping clients especiallyunderstand, or and even the
trainers that are listening inwhat do you, what do you think
about when you're assessing forrisks and what people should be
aware of?

Speaker 2 (11:45):
about when you're assessing for risks and what
people should be aware of.
Sure, when it comes toconsultants, you know I offer
mentorship, a one-on-onementorship to behavior
consultants, and you know theirsafety is really important Our
safety when we're entering thesehomes incredibly important.
Obviously, we don't want to getbitten.
Sometimes I think bites are bad, but I think we tend to forget

(12:06):
that bites aren't just fleshwounds.
You know, a level three bitecan cause nerve damage and that
can really impact our ability todo our job.
So I want to make sure thatconsultants stay safe, and so
what I do, and what I recommendmy other consultants do, is we
now have the ability to doremote consultations really

(12:29):
easily in a way that we didn'tbefore.
So I do all of my historytaking in my initial
consultation remotely with theclient, so that I'm not trying
to gather information over thenoise of a barking dog or
worrying about my safety or notgetting the information I need
to, because I'm having to focuson more urgent things, and it's

(12:51):
during that history taking thatI can start assessing risk, and
I'm looking at a number ofthings.
One of the first things I'mlooking at is how successful
they've been in introducing thedog to new people since
adulthood.
Now, if this is an, the dog isas comfortable and affiliative

(13:26):
with that person as they arewith their people.
Not just that, the dogreluctantly coexists with that
new person in the home.
And if they haven't, if thatdog hasn't met anyone
successfully since they were sixmonths old, this dog is going
to be high risk.

(13:47):
This dog is going to bedifficult and is not going to be
the type of dog that I'm goingto walk into the home and start
tossing treats.
We're going to have to go witha much longer and more
structured approach.
To me that's a big risk factor.
Another one, like I mentionedkind of at the beginning, is a

(14:07):
dog that closes distance.
Again, if someone calls mebecause the dog was barking,
growling, running away and thevisitor said, oh, it's okay,
dogs love me and approached andbacked the dog into a corner,
that's a defensive bite.
That's much lower risk.
If this is a dog that comescharging into the room and goes

(14:27):
right to the person's leg andbites them in the leg, that
dog's a higher risk.
Sometimes I think about it likeif you were in the woods and
you see a bear.
Which bear is higher risk?
The one walking away from youor the one moving towards you.
Right, you can probably guessthe intent there without having

(14:48):
to mind read.
And in my experience,especially in the shelter, the
dogs that were not successfullyadopted out were the ones that
closed distance to threaten orbite.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
For clarity purposes, that's what you would define as
, or label as, offensivebehavior versus defensive,
because we've used that term inother episodes offensive versus
defensive aggression but it'snot always clearly defined, but
you're explaining it quite wellhere with the analogy.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, and then the other factor that I look at for
the client in terms of risk ishow manageable is this behavior?
And you know that depends on alot of factors.
That depends on their homeenvironment, that depends on
their lifestyle, other familymembers, their physical ability

(15:39):
to intervene and manage that dog.
So those are definitely factorsthat I'm looking at and that
I'm taking into consideration.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
And when you see these variables like offensive
aggression, high-level bitehistory, the dog having a very
small circle, taking forever towarm up to anybody at all, what
kind of conversation does thattend to lead to for you?
Do you find it's a poorprognosis scenario?
Or are some of those cases ifyou have one shining part of
that prognosis like incrediblymanageable right that farm out

(16:10):
in the woods kind of situation?
Do you still continue to workwith those cases or do you find
that you have to be realisticwith expectations and outcomes?

Speaker 2 (16:19):
Oh, I'll work with all of the cases that people are
willing to work with me on, andI think it's important to note
that risk and prognosis are notnecessarily connected.
You can have a very high riskdog Mac, I think a lot of people
would say was high risk, but hewas extremely manageable.

(16:41):
So when I was fortunate enoughto get him back, he never had
another incident because he wasvery manageable, and I don't
think the public at largerealizes how many truly
dangerous dogs live in ourcommunities and they never will
because those dogs are so wellmanaged.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yes, Right, we don't see them Right, right, we don't
see them Right, right yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
And so prognosis.
I think that's what comes inwith the client's abilities,
also with the environment, andthat piece can change, because
you might have a single personliving in a house with a yard,
and they've got that behaviorvery well managed.
And then there's a life event,a job change that requires them

(17:32):
to move into an apartment, orthey meet someone, a new partner
, that they want to integrateinto the home right, or they
develop a significant healthproblem that requires caretakers
to come into the house, and sothat can really really change
how successful we're going to be.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah, because you were touching upon some of the
ramifications too.
So obviously, the level of bite, the damage that can occur, the
emotional trauma, of course, tothe guardians as well as the
victims of the dog bites, andinsurance, of course, you know,
hormonal insurance, right I'msure you maybe had to navigate
that a little bit with yoursituation as well, but that's a

(18:14):
common situation.
when it comes tostranger-directed aggression
cases, if the dog bites,depending on where the person
lives, and then dangerous dogdesignations and those type of
that aren't universal, you know,depends on where you live.
With that in mind as well.
But what other ramificationsare there that it's specific to
stranger directed aggressioncases Can you think of?
Do you think of anything that'sdifferent than some of the

(18:36):
other ones?
Then this could be not just thelegal trouble that they can get
to, but just the lifestyleimpacts of.
You know you mentioned againwhat could happen if a person
has to move, but you know, let'ssay they're living with it, and
the ramifications that canimpact the guardians that are
out there.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Absolutely so.
It's been a while now, it'sbeen about eight years but I put
out a survey on social mediaabout living with difficult dogs
, put out a survey on socialmedia about living with
difficult dogs, you know, and Iexpected to get a few responses.
And it was any behaviorchallenge, right.
I just wanted to get a sense ofwhat this experience was like

(19:16):
for the people who lived withthese dogs, especially in terms
of the stranger-directedaggression cases.
The feedback that I receivedwas heartbreaking.
In some cases, especially whenthere's a comorbid behavior like
separation anxiety, these arepeople who can't take the dog
with them on trips or familyvacations or holidays, but they

(19:42):
also can't have someone comeinto the house to watch the dog.
And there was one person whoresponded that hadn't been
anywhere with their partner overthe last two years.
At the same time Not weddings,not funerals, not Christmases,
not any of those events Oneperson always had to stay home

(20:03):
with the dog.
That's extreme.
That's an extreme example.
Another person built an extrasmall wing onto their house that
the dog could be secured in andaway from visitors.
You know that was not aninsignificant expense.
And then there's the everydaystuff the people who stop hiking

(20:26):
, who stop having friends overfor dinner parties.
There's a personal cost thatthis behavior can take, which is
one that I also experiencedpersonally with Mac.
I was afraid to have someonecome over, in spite of my
previous experiences with him,because at the time I didn't

(20:46):
understand the behavior.
I didn't know where it camefrom, I didn't know what to look
for, I didn't know what wasgoing to set it off, and it
wasn't until I learned aboutbody language and all of those
important pieces that I was ableto get my life back was able to
get my life back.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, I'm so glad you're bringing this up, lisa,
because it's something that wedon't see as much as we should,
meaning we don't alwaysrecognize the impacts on
somebody's life.
You know that when they'reliving with a dog like that,
separation anxiety combo casesare absolutely one of the most
difficult.
Yeah, because they're basicallythey're prisoners in their home

(21:27):
in a way.
They are and they're there withtheir dog and, unfortunately,
the dog also.
Their quality of life isseverely impacted many times
because the amount ofopportunity to see the world or
explore and gain that enrichmentand those experiences is very
limited, so thank goodness wehave Sniff Spot now that we
didn't have before.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
This has opened up a whole new world for these dogs
and you know they are now havingthey're getting to be off leash
and getting that reallyimportant exercise and
enrichment and everyone,everyone gets to relax.
So that has made a hugedifference.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yes, yeah, I'm a big fan of sniff spot.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Me too.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yes, absolutely so.
Given your background in theshelter world, talk us through
some of your decision-makingprocess or what your thoughts
are, because we've talked aboutso many of these ramifications.
We really have to empathizewith that.
You know folks in the shelterworld are.
It's a very stressfulenvironment to often be working
with because of the decisionsthat need to be made.

(22:30):
I think shelter folks are someof the most underappreciated,
underpaid, right Overworkedpeople on the planet, because of
the love they have for animalsis what draws them to that.
But then they have thesedecisions to make and the
considerations that we have tonavigate.
Is we have a dog maybe thatdoes have issues with strangers
and it's in a kennel environmentand we want to get them out to

(22:52):
the home that's somewhere,because we know it's often
better than the shelterenvironment for these dogs, but
then we have to think about theramifications that can have on
somebody's life.
Right?
So, they say, well, this dogjust needs to warm up to people
and toss it a few cookies, thatkind of thing.
And then it turns out it's notthat kind of case and I don't

(23:13):
fault a lot of shelter folks.
They might be seeing that inthe kennel environment.
But then once the dog gets to ahome, maybe some dynamic
changes for the behavior that'sgoing to impact the behavior.
So give me some thoughts onthat.
You know the struggles there.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
The struggle is real and it's a very contentious
issue in the shelter world.
There is a lot of pressure toadopt out as many dogs as
possible and there's a lot ofmisunderstanding about
aggressive behavior.
There are those people who wantto see every one of these dogs

(23:50):
their behavior as a result ofbeing in the shelter and once
they're out of the shelterthey'll be fine.
But that's not necessarily thecase.
It is for some, and I thinkshelters that have very
well-staffed behaviordepartments that have the right
resources to be able todifferentiate between those dogs

(24:11):
.
This dog is defensive becausehe's charging the kennel,
because he is behind thisbarrier, but once we get him out
, absolute sweetheart.
This dog is not a risk.
This is something we canprepare the adopters for right.
This isn't a dog we want toadopt into a home that has chain
, link, fence right, becausethis is going to continue, could

(24:33):
continue to be a problem forthis dog.
But from a risk standpoint thedog shows a high level of
affiliation, so this shouldn'texclude this dog from the
opportunity of being adoptedRight.
Then there are dogs that have ahistory of this behavior in a

(24:54):
previous home and they may notdisplay that in the shelter
because now they're in a verycontrolled environment with
skilled handlers yes, skilledhandlers.
So we really need to considerand thankfully the shelter world
is starting to take a much moreholistic approach to behavior
assessments.
It's not just a single testthat is used to make a life or

(25:17):
death decision.
You know which at the time, wasimportant because we were
euthanizing for time and space.
You know those initial behaviorassessments save a lot of lives
.
But you know, as we learn more,we adapt and so now we have
this more holistic approach.
Where one of the strugglescomes in is it has now become

(25:37):
contentious within the shelter,within a lot of shelters, that
there are people making thesedecisions and then there are
people in other departments thatdisagree and there's a lot of
back and forth.
I have a shelter survey outright now that I've gotten about
a dozen responses on askingpeople about this and so far

(26:00):
more than half it's about 60% ofthe respondents say that their
shelter's culture surroundingbehavioral euthanasia is either
contentious or toxic, thatthere's a lot of fighting
happening and nobody wants tomake these decisions.
I never wanted to make thesedecisions in the shelter.

(26:22):
I would love to save all ofthose dogs.
I'm there because I love thedogs, I love behavior, I like
working with these dogs, and sowhen there is this type of
infighting, it takes a huge tollon everyone.
Yeah Right, and so you know, ifyou couldn't tell, I have
pretty strong feelings aboutthis.

(26:43):
You know, if you couldn't tell,I have pretty strong feelings
about this.
But one of the considerations wehave to have is, if we're going
to adopt out dogs that havethis history we meaning the
shelter world need to take onthe responsibility of is
providing adequate support forthat dog in the home.

(27:04):
It's not enough to go into whatwe call a pre-adoption consult,
right?
You meet with the potentialadopter, you tell them about the
dog's behavior history and allof that so they can make an
informed decision.
And what I have seen happen isthe adoption counselor or the
behavior person goes in, talksto the potential adopter and
tells them about the behaviorand then tells talks to the

(27:25):
potential adopter and tells themabout the behavior and then
tells them how to fix thatbehavior, what they need to be
doing for training.
But it's not so much the factthat the dog you know we can't
change the behavior what I seeimpact the dog's success in the
home is the manageability ofthat behavior.
What management needs does thatdog have?

(27:45):
And can that potential adoptermeet them without any B-Mod at
all?
And if they don't feel they can, if we've presented that to
them and said, hey, look, you'renot going to be able to have
anyone come into the house oryou need to work on making sure
that the dog is confined safelybefore you bring anyone into the
house, and they're thinkingthere's no way.

(28:07):
I have teenagers and theirfriends are coming in and out
all the time.
They can make an informeddecision versus if we tell them,
hey, this dog has a problemwith strangers and what you're
going to want to do is, you know, just have people come over and
give them treats and have themtoss treats to the dog.
That gives them an impressionthat this is going to be really
easy and it's not.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yes, I really like that distinction because in our
behavior cases we start withmanagement, always right.
We start with management toprevent rehearsal of the
behavior and for safety and ofcourse all the other reasons we
do it.
But I really like thatdistinction because it doesn't
set false expectations.
Like you said, just I can tosstreats and then just backing up
a little bit too thinking too.

(28:49):
It's kind of like the shelterteams are like a big family, so
when we see a client there's alot of different opinions and
and what the potential outcomeshould be for the dog and you
have lots of contention andsometimes fighting in between
family members.
So I can totally understand howit can happen when we have a

(29:10):
team of people that care foranimals and that get attached to
the dog Sometimes the dogs arethere for a long time and it's
hard.
Who doesn't get attached right,even if it's a dog with pretty
significant issues withstrangers, people?
Maybe that shelter staff memberthat's worked a year with the
dog finally makes them inroads,you know, and then they hear
about these decisions being made.
It must be incredibly stressfuland difficult.

(29:33):
So I certainly empathize with,again, all the team members out
there making these difficultchoices and having these
conversations.
So I want to get into thereasons a little bit more, but I
think what we should do is takea quick break to hear a word
from our sponsors and we'regoing to come right back and
talk about why dogs display manyof these behaviors.

(29:53):
So let's take a quick break andwe'll be right back.
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(32:27):
All right, we're back here withLisa Mullinax and we've been
discussing all thingsstranger-directed aggression.
We talked a lot about the risksand thinking through the
decisions, especially when we'retalking about adopting these
dogs.
I want to get to the reasonsfor this.
I know we talked about what itlooks like, so oftentimes, as
good behaviorists would do,they're going to look at

(32:48):
observable behaviors and not tryto say, well, this is what the
dog is thinking.
But just to go a little furtherwith that, because I want to
talk about how we treat thisbehavior, how we work on the
behavior change strategies.
We know behavior is not static,so kind of backing up to what
we were talking about justbefore the break.
You know that's.

(33:10):
The other difficulty is that wedon't know what the dog's going
to be like in a new environment, even if we have history in the
previous 10 homes or whateverit is.
Sometimes that'll give us avery informed decision but or
thought about what could behappening, but it still doesn't
dictate what's going to happenin the new home because we know
behavior is often in theenvironment.
So, with that being said,reasons for this we talked about
resource guarding.
So you could have the dogdirecting behavior, growling

(33:30):
behavior at a stranger goingnear their resources.
But they're affiliative inother contexts, right?
Or you have you know the dogthat it's a working line German
shepherd bred for police workand bite sports and there's
happened to be growling atpeople that approach their
person.
So the stranger approaching theperson.
So this is where I think canget a little bit muddy sometimes

(33:51):
for both guardians andprofessionals assessing these
cases.
It's not always obvious, but doyou find it's important, though
, in some cases, to truly assesswhat the cause is?
So, whether it's pain, or Ineed to guard this resource, or
I need to guard my people and myproperty, because the treatment
plans are going to be a littlebit different for each type of

(34:11):
case in some regard, so give usyour thoughts there.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, no, I'm so glad you brought up pain because
that is something that I wouldsay.
I know there was the recentpaper that came out estimating
that it could be as high as 80%of these cases have some sort of
pain component.
Because my cases are primarilystranger-directed aggression.

(34:37):
That percentage is much higher.
I see a much, much higherpercentage and it can be
challenging for the pet guardianbecause pain is still not
really well understood orspotted in dogs.
I think sometimes when peoplethink of pain they immediately
think of like orthopedic painand if the dog isn't limping or

(34:59):
something doesn't show up on anx-ray it can't be pain.
But we know in people we havenerve pain and we also get
migraines which you're not goingto see on an x-ray.
I don't know if dogs getmigraines.
This is something that I reallyhope we can discover someday,
because I'm sure you, like I,have seen those dogs where their

(35:21):
behavior is inconsistent fromday to day and that shouldn't be
the case.
That's one of my firstindicators that there may be a
pain component, that the dog hasgood days that they're up for
going for a walk and interactingwith people, and then they have
bad days that they're grumpyand they don't want to.
You know, they're avoidant ofthe harness, and I'm
specifically asking thesequestions in the beginning.

(35:43):
Is your dog ever moody?
Do they ever seem like they'rein a bad mood for no reason,
because dogs shouldn't be thatway.
You know.
This is what we love about dogs, is they're generally pretty
consistent.
You know if all is good in theworld in the moment.
They're pretty happy, and so alot of these cases really
require us.
We're not veterinarians, right,we can't diagnose the dog, but

(36:07):
it does require us to bedetectives, right, digging in
asking these questions thatmight give us an indication that
there's something going on.
Big one, I see in my aggressioncases are chronic GI issues.
Right, the dog either never hasa solid stool or has cycles of

(36:30):
problems, and I know in humansthat's painful.
Right, it's not just what wecan see, it's what we feel.
And so sometimes we're goingdown a rabbit hole, working with
veterinarians, gettingreferrals to an internal
specialist, trying to resolvethis issue, because if the dog

(36:52):
is never feeling well, that'scertainly going to impact their
behavior.
I've even gone so far I takeslow-mo videos of the dog
walking so that I can send thatto the veterinarian so they can
see the gait.
I have a dog right now that hislittle leg, like, swings out
and then comes back in.
I'm like that's not normal.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yes, yeah, and I've had cases where it's like the
chicken or egg thing, right.
So the dog's been to the vet amillion times.
They've tried a bunch ofdifferent diets.
They're, you know, reallyfocusing on proper nutrition.
Different meds have been tried.
But then you dig into thedetails of the case and you're
like, well, is this related tochronic stress because you have
so many visitors over, becauseyou have, like, a home-based

(37:34):
business and your dog is havingissues with strangers?
So sometimes it's like you saidI love the analogy of the
detective, I use that a lot it'slike we're kind of just looking
at sort of the crime scenes ina way sometimes and we're asking
questions about the history andthe environment, the
arrangements in the environment,and so, yeah, it's the little

(37:56):
nuanced details that sometimeswe have to dig into.
So pain is definitely.
Yeah, I agree, it's one of themost common reasons.
What are some other commonreasons?
You know, you see aggressiondirected strictly at strangers.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
Certainly, I suspect, a very strong genetic component
in a lot of these cases.
Lack of socialization can be aproblem.
But you see, those dogs thatare severely under-socialized
but just need a little bit oftime to warm up to people.
We might have labeled them asshy at one point, right, and

(38:28):
then it just takes a little bitof time and then they're very
affiliative, very friendly andsocial.
And that's another reason Isuspect you know that genetic
predisposition kind of sayswhich way that behavior is going
to go with that lack ofsocialization.
Yeah, kind of says which waythat behavior is going to go
with that lack of socialization.
Yeah, right, yeah, are theymore predisposed to an

(38:49):
aggressive response?
Are they more predisposed to anavoidant response?
I had two separate cases backwhen I used to teach puppy
classes, two separate cases oflitter mates that came to a
puppy class.
The same puppy class lived indifferent homes so they had
different humans.
So two dogs in one class, twodogs in the other class.

(39:10):
In both of those right aroundadolescence, those dogs, which
had not displayed any shyness,fearfulness, anything of people
in that class, developedstranger-directed, either fear
or aggression, and two of thedogs were prone to closing
distance and biting.
The other two were prone toavoidance and in terms of the

(39:33):
sets of litter mates, rightthere was very clearly.
You know I'm not a geneticistso I'm not going to be able to
prove that, but in my mind thatwas a pretty clear sign to me
that this isn't just aboutmaking sure we socialize puppies
.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Right.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Exactly yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
Because both of these puppies not only came to puppy
class, but they had really greatfamilies who were trying to do
all the right things, and theystill ended up this way.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And thinking about again goingto breeds.
We've selected for certaintraits and working see the same
thing Like no, it could be.
Somebody does incrediblesocialization, and you know what
us as trainers or consultantssay.
Well, that's kind of the sameway I would do it if I had a
wish list for socialization, butyou still see the aggression
start to come out towardsstrangers and again you lean

(40:25):
towards okay, genetics, genetics, yeah, all right.
So give us some other commonreasons.
So we talked about pain,genetics, other motivations.
I guess, if we're looking atpossible emotions or Well, I
think environment certainlyplays a role.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
right, we talk to our clients all the time about not
having the window blinds openfor the dog to bark at people
going by, you know, all day long, because the dogs really get
good at it.
Right, they know how to chaseoff people.
And then the one time you havethe person come to the front

(41:01):
door.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
And that person doesn't go away when the dog
barks and they cross thethreshold, that's when the dog
escalates.
So probably a genetic componentthere as well.
But this is where theenvironment contributes and so
does the learning history.
Right, the dog is practicingthis behavior over and over.
I talk to my clients all thetime about, like, if you let

(41:24):
your dog practice this, then theone time you're there and you
try to tell them no, no, don'tdo that the dog is basically
saying no, listen, trust me, Ido this for a living.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
I know what.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
I'm doing, I'm very good at it, just let me do my
thing.
And that can be a hard one toconvince people, right?
We all like having our blindsopen, yeah, but I think the
environment can contribute.
I will say, in terms of all thebehavior histories I take,
traumatic experience seems to bethe least common.
So even if they came from ahome, a known abusive home, some

(41:59):
of those dogs are just the mostpassive, deferential, avoidant
dogs that I've worked with inthe shelter or in a home, not to
say that traumatic experiencecan't contribute to it.
Here's one example Puppies thatdevelop parvo or very serious
illnesses and end up spendingextended time in the vet's

(42:24):
office where they're subjectedto a lot of invasive handling.
We don't think of that all thetime as trauma because it's not
intentional trauma and it'snecessary.
But that's certainly, from thedog's perspective, pretty
traumatic and I have seen I hadone case of a Great Dane that
only reacted to people comingthrough a doorway.
I had one case of a Great Danethat only reacted to people

(42:44):
coming through a doorway.
If they met them anywhere elsein any other way they were fine.
Turned out, the dog was veryill as a puppy and so they were
constantly in these small roomswhere the vet would come in and
then do something invasive, sopeople walking through that
doorway became a big problem.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
But also that was an easy one to fix.
The dog was okay with strangers.
It was just this one Manage thedoorways, Change the
association, Exactly.
But those dogs that you find,you know, you described as sort
of passive, do you find thatthere could be like a learned
helplessness component or justthe learning history?
Because you would think theother dogs too, when you think

(43:25):
about an offensively aggressivedog, the reason we're not seeing
that is like the in terms ofthe cause is like cause.
Most people would be like, allright, I'm not going to stick
around for this dog, that'scoming after me offensively so
you actually see less of thosedogs.
Do you see there's like a learnhelp this component, or more
like a learning history or likehow would you describe what's
happening in that phenomenon?

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Oh sure, I think that can definitely play a role.
You know, I think it'sdifferent with every case.
If you have those dogs that area little more predisposed at
avoidance, they're less likelyto aggress, and that doesn't
necessarily have to be a learnedcomponent.
Yeah, I think it really comesdown once we can have to be a

(44:07):
learned component.
Yeah, I think it really comesdown once we can.
If we have the luxury which wedon't have in the shelter a lot
of times, but if we have theluxury of having a very clear
and detailed behavior history,then we might be able to
identify that.
But I think it's going todepend with every dog.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Do you get into emotions withyour clients, meaning labeling
the dog or pointing out bodylanguage that might be
indicating fear versus you know,if we look at some of the other
emotions rage or anger, ifwe're looking at an effective
neuroscience model, Right, Doyou talk about that with clients
to help them empathize withtheir dogs in some cases?
Or is it more of a ABA lenswhere you're just, we see the

(44:44):
observable behaviors.
This is what we want the dog todo differently when Uncle Bob
comes through, or something like.
So how do you get into thatside of things?

Speaker 2 (44:51):
You know I used to.
But what's interesting and thisis one of the great things
about all the many resourcesavailable to pet guardians you
know everything from the AVMAwebsite to everything they go to
now is explaining this to them.
I think people have a bettersense that this is stress, this

(45:14):
isn't their dog being mean.
So I find that clients now Idon't need to go down that route
.
You know they're not sayingthis dog is really dominant and
stubborn.
I mean I can't remember thelast time I had someone say that
, yeah, so maybe I'm fortunate,you know, in the clients I get,
but you know it used to be allthe time and it doesn't happen

(45:34):
as much.
So I don't really find that Ineed to.
And you know, back in the earlydays of my career when I was
doing that, it often ended up ina little bit of a debate with
the client.
Because when you have a Germanshepherd, you know you've got a
90 pound German shepherd that isflying at the window.
You know barking and snarlingand growling and you say he's

(45:58):
afraid.
That's because he's afraid.
They're like.
That doesn't look like fear tome.
He looks mad.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
That doesn't look like fear.
To me he looks mad.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
And I always think about these things and think
about even my own personalexperiences in potentially
threatening situations.
And I had something once whereI was out with a friend and we
were driving and we were in mycar and the car got surrounded
by this group of people and itwas a really scary situation and

(46:28):
my friend immediately grabbedher phone and started calling
her husband, who was in lawenforcement.
It wasn't a conscious decision,but I rolled down my window and
I yelled at them to get the youknow what away from my car.
And anyone who knows me knowsI'm an incredibly passive, not
confrontational person.
I have no idea where that camefrom, but I was mad.

(46:51):
So we were in the same scenarioand, for whatever reason,
that's the emotion that came up,and so I also think it's a very
you know.
Again, only the dog knows whatthey're feeling, and they can be
feeling both.
They can be feeling mad andanxious.
You know we sometimes try tomake emotions the singular thing

(47:11):
, but they are capable ofexperiencing conflict just like
we do.
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
So in this regard, we're talking about all the
motivations and causes forstranger directed aggression.
Let's talk about how we treatthis or how we work on behavior
change strategies.
So let's go through kind oflike your standard.
I'm sure both of us you know.
So we talk about management.
Right, we're going to avoidallowing the dog to practice the
behavior, but then you get into, okay, we've got a decoy coming

(47:39):
over, somebody to help us, andwe're going to start working
with the dog, or even if it'syourself, Sure, what are your
usual steps for the typical case?
And then we can talk about themore you know the complexities
and nuances.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
It's hard to say that there's a typical case, because
these are extremely complexcases and the environments, the
people, the things that triggertheir behavior, their reactions,
all of that are so varied.
But I will say that what Istart with typically is that dog

(48:11):
has to be okay with me first.
Before we can talk aboutbringing in other people.
I need to know what thisparticular dog needs to feel
comfortable and to eventuallylet me into their circle of
trust.
That can look very different.
For some dogs that it's a verymild case.

(48:32):
They just need to be introducedin a certain way.
You know, you put the dog inthe other room, have the person
sit on the couch, hand them ahandful of treats.
The dog comes in, the persontosses treats.
We're good, right, love thosecases because I look like a
magician.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Right, I know how you feel.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
You know.
And then I have the cases whereI had a client a couple of
years ago that we took fourmonths to work up to the point
that I was interacting with thedog through protected contact.
That I was interacting with thedog through protected contact
and a big part of that wasbecause we knew the dog had a

(49:12):
bite history.
But we had no information aboutwhat that dog's body language
looked like, what kind ofwarnings he gave, what his
tolerance level was.
We didn't really even know whatthe triggers were, and this was
a 90-pound German Shepherd.
One bad bite can limit myability to work and you know my
employer doesn't have sick pay.

(49:32):
You know she's very stingy.
You know I don't get paidvacation or sick time One of the
downsides of beingself-employed.
So I had to be very careful andI was very, very lucky with
this client because she isbehavior savvy, she does a lot
of training in other contextsand she was willing and ready to

(49:55):
take as long as we needed.
And so we did very, very slow,a very slow process of
introduction where we met once aweek and we might start by
sitting, you know, in chairs onopposite ends of the driveway.
She has a large piece ofproperty so we had lots of space
and I find with these dogs it'svery important in the beginning

(50:19):
that the treats don't come fromthe stranger, because that sets
up that conflict like we weretalking about.
If I start tossing treats, thedog may want the treats but
still be uncomfortable with memaking eye contact, making
gestures towards them, all ofthat.
So my default is always thatall of the food comes from the

(50:43):
client at first, until I canassess that we're ready to move
to next steps, and then, fromthat process of learning what
that dog needs to be comfortablewith me, then I develop a
protocol specific to that dog onhow we're going to do
introductions to new people.

(51:04):
That's when I then bring in anassistant and we run through
that protocol with them and makesure that the client is both
able and comfortable enough withthat protocol that they can
recreate it on their own.
This implementation stage is soimportant for these cases.
I have so many clients thathave worked with other positive

(51:28):
trainers.
They have the one session andthen they're given a big
write-up on what to do next andthen that's it, and I think this
also lends itself to trainerburnout.
Well, we told them what to doand they didn't do it.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
And with these cases, these are high risk cases.
These are high risk for theclient in terms of financial
liability, in terms of legalliability, and it's also high
risk for the dog, becausestranger directed aggression
cases are, you know, lookingback over almost 25 years of
doing this are the only cases ofmine that I know of that have

(52:08):
resulted in behavioraleuthanasia.
Right, these are the cases thatare really high stakes and you
know we talked a little bitearlier about the impact that
this has on our clients and it'sreally important that we have
as much compassion for ourclients as we do for the dogs in
their care and that we designbehavior programs that support

(52:31):
those clients as much as they dothe dog.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Yeah, yes, because the strategies we use often are
very straightforward in what wethink as trainers or consultants
.
Be like, oh we could do, lookat that, we can do counter
conditioning.
You know it's like secondnature to us, but not to the
clients, so they need thatsupport, as you were mentioning.
So it seems like, oh yeah, ifwe just write this down, most
people can read it and they'regoing to be able to do it.

(52:56):
But I tend to also avoid recipes.
You know you need to be 10 feetaway and mark and treat and all
that stuff, because it doesn'talso help the client in the long
term.
It might help them for onesession that they do it with,
but they I prefer they becomesort of baby trainers themselves
, where they know how to modifythings like distance, duration,

(53:18):
intensity of the stimulus, andthey know how to modify it based
on how their dog's telling themhey, I need more distance today
because yesterday there wasthunderstorms.
Or there's another person thatUPS driver that showed up at the
door this morning, so I'm alittle on edge, and so that
person can be like, well, thathappened, so I need more
distance to modify that.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
So yeah, I totally agree with you that the support
has to come in a much morecoaching aspect and they're not
just hoping the client's likeand they're not just hoping the
client's like I can process thisand suddenly be like a great
trainer or great athlete, orswim in the deep end of the pool
on my first day.
Right, and I think consultantswho work with these cases should
I encourage them to learn a newskill play the guitar, learn

(53:59):
how to watercolor, learn how todo something new that you have
never done before, how to dosomething new that you have
never done before Because youknow you take a painting class.
If you don't have a goodinstructor, you can see how hard
it is to be successful.
Yeah, right, yes, and this iswhat we are we are instructors,
we are coaches, and then we aredog trainers.

(54:22):
Yes, right, yeah, we say allthe time.
If all we had to do was workwith the dogs, well, that's easy
peasy.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, it's the people side, yeah, yeah
.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
And because of the complexity of these cases, you
know you mentioned recipes,something I also feel very
strongly about.
I have a client that I juststarted working with also feel
very strongly about.
I have a client that I juststarted working with.
They work with four differentbehavior consultants and all of
them gave them the same recipesand none of those were specific

(54:56):
to the client, their environmentor the dogs themselves or even
the behavior they were just kindof like.
This is another reason why I'mso resistant to labels.
Oh well, you have this behavior.
So here's the protocol.
And this client paid a lot ofmoney to four different people
and a lot of time and they'renot getting what they need.

(55:18):
Yeah Right.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
And every one of these dogs I'm going to say this
a million times every one ofthem is so different that, yes,
in some cases it is abouttossing treats and working up to
that counter conditioningeffect.
But it's important to note thateven recent studies have shown
that counter conditioning is nota permanent, doesn't create a

(55:42):
permanent change.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Right yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
And I want my clients .
I set that expectation thatwe're not fixing aggression.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Right.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
When your dog is in a situation that they are not
prepared for and they areoverwhelmed.
This behavior that you haveseen is going to be what they
default to.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Yep Right.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
We can increase their tolerance, we can teach them
skills so they are moremanageable in these situations.
In these cases we can developan introduction protocol,
basically a behaviormodification plan of one for
each new person, and we canbring that new person in.
But we can't just say here'show we treat these cases.

(56:24):
Yeah treat these cases Becausewhen it backfires, in our
training community we have setup this false dichotomy of
positive versus balanced, andwhen we communicate that to our
clients or they read this onlinethen if we give them a behavior
plan that is not effective,they're going to say well, it

(56:47):
must be because this methoddoesn't work.
And so we can't get mad if theythen go seeking the other method
because we've told them thereare two choices as opposed to.
It's the behavior plan that wasthe problem.
We need to adjust that, notsimply switch to another method

(57:08):
or another piece of equipment orsomething like that.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
You are so speaking my language right now.
This is exactly how I feelabout it, so thank you for
saying that and explaining it soeloquently too.
Yeah, I think it's the nuances,right, and the details.
It's like you were just sayingit's like, all right, we're
going to teach you how to swimand the trainer's like, yeah,
okay, so tread water 10 feet andyou're going to.

(57:31):
They're thinking you're goingto get to the other side, but
they don't realize the client'sgot a 20 foot length spool,
right, right?
Or that the client doesn inknow what counter conditioning
is or should, if they're workingon aggression cases.
But there's a lot of protocolsand people are familiar with the

(57:53):
different names.
But do you have anything thatyou use a lot of?
So do you use like differentialreinforcement, or look at that,
or bat or cat, or one of thedifferent hats, or foundational
skills stationing?

Speaker 2 (58:06):
What are some of?

Speaker 1 (58:06):
your strategies.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Well, first, I kind of want to point out that love
the trainers that have developedthat and look at that.
And pattern games.
You know super smart trainers,very smart protocols, but they
are recipes.
If we don't understand theindividual components and what's
going on within them, then justthrowing them at these cases
may not help us reach our goalsRight.

(58:32):
I also find it's reallyimportant, whenever we're
communicating about theseprotocols, that we are very
clear what we mean.
Pattern games is a lot of things, and yet I have had mentees who
say, well, I have this case andwe did pattern games.
And yet I have had mentees whosay, well, I have this case and
we did pattern games.
I'm like, okay, which gamesspecifically?
In what situations?

(58:53):
What was your goal?
What is the ultimate goal ofthis?
Are you doing pattern gamessimply to distract the dog and
manage the dog, or is there anoutcome you want from this, a
behavior change outcome?
Is there an outcome you wantfrom this, a behavior change
outcome?
Also, in talking to them, whenI say, what do you mean by look
at that?
You ask five trainers aboutlook at that and you are going

(59:16):
to get five different answers.
Some of them say, well, I markwhen the dog looks at the person
.
Another one is going to say,well, I tell the dog look at
that and then, when they do, Imark and reward them.
Or some of them have said, well, it's when they look at the
person and reorient to me,that's when I mark and reward
right.
So in our own conversationsbetween ourselves and in

(59:38):
communicating right, I mentionedthe client that got the same
protocols from four differenttrainers.
If that client has learned onedefinition of that exercise,
they're not necessarily going tobe diving a little bit deeper.
So that's my little rant aboutthat.
So with my mentorship clients,I ask them to, instead of using

(01:00:04):
those protocol labels, I want totalk about what is our goal?
Do we want the dog to reorientto us?
And if we do, you mentioneddifferential reinforcement.
Here's something I learnedrecently.
I was using differentialreinforcement wrong.
I was using it to say, oh, it'swhen I reward the dog for doing

(01:00:25):
something that is analternative to or incompatible
to.
But I don't know if you arefamiliar with Amy Benane,
brilliant, brilliant trainer.
She clarified that.
For me, differentialreinforcement is when the dog
has many options.
They can be lunging, they canbe barking, and we're only
selecting the times that theyturn towards us In an aggression

(01:00:48):
case.
I don't want that, right,because you know the dog is
already stressed.
The dog is already experiencing, they're experiencing that
learning history, right.
And so, while I do want toreinforce alternative behaviors
and incompatible behaviorsreinforce alternative behaviors

(01:01:10):
and incompatible behaviors I tryto focus on teaching those to
the dog first and then settingup our practice sessions where
the dog is more likely to besuccessful, right, some might
call it errorless learning.
If we try, if we shoot for thatyou know, nothing is perfect so
that the dog has a chance to besuccessful more than they are
practicing the unwanted behavior.

(01:01:32):
Yes, right, and it's.
I think it's an importantdistinction.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Very important.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Because there are certainly times that I will do
differential reinforcement forsomething with my own dog, for
example, who is the opposite ofstranger-directed aggression.
He is stranger-directedaggressive affection and I will
tell you that is so much harderto work with than reactivity or

(01:02:00):
aggression, because reactivityand aggression you can give them
distance.
That's what they want A cattledog-coonhound mix that wants to
get to someone and can't is veryloud, so you know.
So in that kind of a scenario Ihave had to just kind of wait
him out until he makes the rightchoice and then reinforce that.

(01:02:21):
But I may have gone way offcourse, with all of that, I love
it.
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Well, with your dog, there's less risk of the fallout
because positive, balancedemotions are happening there, we
assume.
But yeah, I think really it alljust boils down to when you're
talking about especiallydifferential reinforcement and
just setting the dog up forsuccess.
It's all about ensuring the dogfeels safe in the environment.
So that they don't need to reachfor that behavior, and it goes

(01:02:47):
back to what you were sayingbefore.
We're not fixing you know,we're not turning off this
behavior like a light switch.
It's about decreasing the dog'spotential to do it, because
we're setting them up forsuccess and we're, you know,
helping them feel safer about itand we're teaching them some
alternative responses, and youknow.
So all these things that we doto decrease the likelihood of it

(01:03:08):
yeah.
I love this conversation andjust have one more thought that
came to mind before we wrap itup is 50 first dates.
It's just a little nuancedquestion here.
It's like the dogs that youwork with and by the end of the
session the first sessionthey're like oh, I love Lisa.
Then you go back the secondtime like who are you and what
are you doing in my home?
And you have to spend the sameamount of time like wait a

(01:03:29):
second, just do it, and then, bythe end of session, oh, I love
you again.
And then you go back a thirdtime like who are you Park, park
, park, lunch, lunch.
Like did you get those casesand what do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
is going on, of course.
Yeah, I used to.
That's great, yeah.
Yeah, in my experience, as Ihave gotten better at reading
dogs and have a betterunderstanding of arousal and

(01:03:59):
emotional valence and all ofthose pieces, what I will say is
that those dogs were nevertruly comfortable to begin with.
They may be taking treats, theymay be responding to training
cues, but this is where lookingat the nuances of their body
language is really important.

(01:04:20):
If that dog never comes in andcompletely sidles up to you, you
know, leaning into you for petsor soliciting pets if they're
always facing you, they'vealways got, like you call it,
the bitey end is the closestthing to you and that when you
move they pivot so that they aremaybe always staying a little

(01:04:41):
bit out of your reach and theyare always facing you.
These dogs were nevercomfortable to begin with.
They're doing that.
I like your treats, I like whatyou're doing, but I don't trust
that you're not going to changeat some point.
Yeah, right, and so when that'sthe thing that's happening,
that's where I look back and gookay, what do we need to do

(01:05:03):
differently?
And often it's slowing down.
We sometimes get in a rush tocreate a positive association to
the new person.
But we don't think aboutneutral, right?
If you're in a coffee shop,you're not looking around to see
who's a threat.
All the people sitting arounddrinking their coffee, working
on their laptops they're neutral, you don't have to consider

(01:05:26):
them.
And then, if they come up andtalk to you, you can go from
neutral, potentially, topositive.
But if that same person showsup at your bedroom window in the
middle of the night trying toget from there to positive,
that's going to be a long road.
They have already shownthemselves to be a potential

(01:05:48):
threat and you're always goingto be looking for signs that
tell you that they are stillthat.
Uh-huh, I knew it.
I knew you were creepy.
Right, yep.
And this is really where howI'm designing my plans is.
We can't just jump in and throwtreats and hope that the dog
forms a negative association tous.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Yeah Right, we really need to be A positive
association.
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Yeah, we definitely want to avoid the negative
association.
So and this is where you know,when I was introduced to the
concept of emotional arousal andlooking at positive and
negative valence and just highand low arousal in general, I
may not always be able toconfirm that the dog is 100% in

(01:06:37):
positive valence, but I can tellif they are low arousal versus
high arousal and I'm alwayslooking to work within that low
arousal scenario.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Yes, yeah, good distinction.
And good analogy too, with thestranger showing up at the back
of the window.
So love that, love that.
I've really enjoyed thisconversation and I would love to
have you back on again at somepoint in the future.
Tell people where they can findyou and what you're working on
next.
Oh, I'm working on lots ofthings, so you back on again at
some point in the future.
Tell people where they can findyou and what you're working on
next.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
I'm working on lots of things, so you can find me at
lisamullinaxcom, and you canalso find me on my podcast,
aggressionbytescom.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
Find that on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and that's
with a Y right, that's with a Yyes.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Because I'm trying to keep these you know to be about
the amount of time a behaviorconsultant needs to drive from
home to their next appointment.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Love it.
Oh, that's great.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
And I have my Stranger Directed Aggression
series.
I offer that twice a year, inthe spring and the fall, and so
that information is on mywebsite.
It's a three-part series forbehavior consultants about
working with these cases fromstart to finish and really
looking at the practical aspectsof these cases, and they can
also find out information aboutone-on-one mentoring.

(01:07:59):
I love, love helping behaviorconsultants be successful in
these and other aggression cases, because we are the first line
of defense and we all care, andso it is really frustrating when
we don't get the results wewant.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Yes, yeah, fantastic.
All amazing resources, and I'llbe sure to link those in the
show notes.
Lisa, thank you so much forcoming on again.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
Thank you so much and I hope to see you in the future
.
Great, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
It was such a privilege to speak with Lisa and
gain her insights into thenuanced world of stranger
directed aggression.
Her experience and empathyreally underscore how important
it is to look beyond labels andbehavior and into the emotional
lives of dogs and their people.
And if you're ready to godeeper into understanding and
helping dogs with aggression,visit AggressiveDogcom.
Whether you're a professionalor a dedicated dog guardian,
you'll find everything from theAggression and Dogs Master

(01:08:55):
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive program of its
kind, to expert-led webinars,informative articles and even
the Aggression and DogsConference happening from
September 26th to 28th 2025 inCharlotte, north Carolina, with
both in-person and virtualoptions.
And don't forget to check outour Help for Dogs with
Aggression bonus episodes, whichare solo shows where I walk you

(01:09:18):
through real-world strategiesfor issues like resource
guarding, fear-based aggression,territorial behavior and more.
Just hit, subscribe or head tothe show notes for more info.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.
You.