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July 14, 2025 69 mins

Dr. Hauser pulls back the curtain on one of the most overlooked factors in pet behavior problems—physical pain. This eye-opening conversation reveals how arthritis affects not just senior pets but surprisingly young animals too, with research showing 40% of dogs between 8 months and 4 years have joint issues that often go completely undiagnosed.

The discussion challenges common misconceptions about how animals display pain. That dog who still enthusiastically plays fetch? The adrenaline is temporarily masking their discomfort. The cat who no longer jumps to their favorite windowsill? They're making a subtle accommodation for painful joints. These insights explain those baffling moments when a pet seems to invite attention then suddenly snaps—revealing the complex relationship between pain anticipation and aggression.

Dr. Hauser shares practical diagnostic approaches from medication trials to environmental modifications that can dramatically improve quality of life. Her examples of dogs whose "stubborn" refusal to sit actually indicates hip pain, and cats whose litterbox issues stem from discomfort, showcase how behavior changes often represent an animal's attempt to communicate physical distress. Particularly valuable is her guidance on harness selection, petting consent tests, and creating low-stress home environments that respect an animal's physical limitations.

You'll gain a powerful new perspective on interpreting pet behavior, recognizing that what we often label as "problem behaviors" may actually be desperate attempts to avoid or express pain. Whether you're a trainer, veterinarian, or devoted pet parent, this conversation will transform how you approach behavioral challenges—looking first at potential physical causes before assuming psychological ones.

About Dr. Hauser:

https://metro-vet.com/staff-item/hagar-hauser-2/

- Canine Arthritis Management: https://caninearthritis.co.uk/

- Zoetis Canine OA: https://www.zoetisus.com/conditions/petcare/oa-pain/canine-oa-pain

- Zoetis Feline OA: https://www.zoetisus.com/conditions/petcare/oa-pain/feline-oa-pain

- International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management: https://www.ivapm.org/

- Zero Pain Philosophy (for veterinarians only currently): https://www.zeropainphilosophy.com/


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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
In this episode I sit down with veterinary
behaviorist Dr Hauser to unpackthe hidden links between pain,
behavior and aggression in dogsand cats.
We dig into why musculoskeletalpain is so often missed,
especially in cats, howadrenaline can mask discomfort
during play and why theanticipation of pain can spark

(00:23):
seemingly out of theblue bitesAlong the way.
We look at home-based rehabstrategies, simple body language
tests like petting, consentchecks and the value of video
documentation when you suspect apet is hurting.
We also tackle compulsivebehaviors, the double-edge
effect of certain medicationsand why true welfare hinges on

(00:44):
collaboration among owners,trainers and veterinarians.
Dr Hauser earned her BS inanimal sciences at the
University of Maryland andgraduated cum laude from the
University of Florida College ofVeterinary Medicine, before
completing a rotating internshipat Friendship Hospital for
Animals and a behavior residencyat the University of

(01:04):
Pennsylvania.
Now a diplomat of the Collegeof American Veterinary
Behaviorists and Fear Free Elitecertified, she treats complex
cases ranging from interdogaggression to noise phobias, and
she speaks at nationalconferences and publishes in
peer-reviewed journals.
Passionate about shelter,outreach, low stress handling
and lifelong learning, dr Hausercredits her heart dog, ronnie,

(01:28):
for inspiring her mission toease the path for pets in pain
and people who love them.
And before we jump into today'sepisode, a quick heads up If
you're looking to learn moreabout helping dogs with
aggression issues, head on overto AggressiveDogcom, because
we've got something for everyone.
For pet pros, there's theAggression and Dogs Master

(01:50):
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
on aggression, packed withexpert insights and CEUs For dog
guardians.
Check out Real Life Solutions,a practical course for everyday
challenges like leash reactivityand dog-to-dog aggression.
And if you want full access toexpert webinars, live mentor
sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access membership
is just $29 a month.

(02:11):
You'll also find info on the2025 Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening inCharlotte this September.
That can all be found ataggressivedogcom.
Check it out after the show.
Check it out after the show.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.
This week I have anotherveterinary behaviorist.
We've had a few on the show andI always love chatting with

(02:33):
them about all of the things weshould be learning about the
medical side and the meds andall the things that they can
help us learn.
So welcome to the show, drHagar Hauser.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
It's great to have you here and your focus.
Actually, I should give thelisteners a little background
about how I met you, but we wereat the Clinical Animal Behavior
Conference, both speaking there, and I saw your talk about pain
in dogs and cats and I justthought it was fantastic because
one of the things we were justtalking about before the show
started is that theunder-diagnosis of pain and
behavior issues right.
So let's first kind of talkabout what are some of the

(03:13):
common pain issues.
You see, and we can talk aboutdogs and cats we got to give our
cats some love on the show.
So what are the most commonthings that are contributing to
behavior issues in your practice?

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, things that are contributing to behavior issues
in your practice.
Yeah, so I would say that I seepain in my patients almost on a
daily basis, if not multipletimes a week, whether they come
to me with a history of pain orI'm the one who's suspicious of
it or diagnosing it.
The three most common oneswould be musculoskeletal pain,
so most often arthritis, butalso cruciate disease, hip

(03:47):
dysplasia, patellar luxations,and this is even in young dogs.
I have a few patients that werediagnosed with hip dysplasia
before they turned one year old.
The second most common cause ofpain, I would say, is
gastrointestinal disease.
So you think about inflammatorybowel disease is a common one.
I have some with EPI, orexocrine pancreatic

(04:10):
insufficiency, and that is onethat's a little bit of the
chicken or the egg.
When a dog is having especiallydiarrhea, is it stress-related?
Is it the underlying disease?
Is it both?
Sometimes they have thesechronic conditions that are well
controlled by, let's say, aprimary care doctor or an
internist, but then whenstressors happen, they still

(04:33):
have vomiting diarrhea.
So I see them and I'm treatingthe stress causing those flares.
And the last most common one, Iwould say, is the dermatologic
issues.
So our patients with allergies,a lot of them.
It also is a little bit of thechicken or the egg where,
especially when you think aboutone of the displacement
behaviors dogs and cats have isself-grooming, so they'll lick

(04:55):
themselves because they'restressed, and then they're
causing infections and morepruritus and then they have to
treat the flare, but thenthey're also itchy because they
have underlying allergies andit's this vicious cycle and I
have patients where theirbehavior is really well
controlled but then when theyhave an allergy flare, they have
a regression in their behavior.
So, very strongly connected andthere's actually a paper that

(05:17):
came out in 2022 that showedthat pruritic or atopic dogs
displayed more aggressiontowards multiple different
triggers, and I see the samething in my patients.
Outside of those more medicalreasons, I've also seen pain due
to procedures being done byveterinarians that they have to

(05:38):
do.
So let's say, they're trying todo an examination of their ear,
but they have an ear infectionand it's very painful.
That will cause aggression andthen also some pain due to
aversive tools that have beenused before.
So you know, when the petparents try to touch around
their head and they have ahistory of prong collar use,
I've seen them develop anaversion and develop into

(06:00):
aggression.
But from the medical side ofthings, I'd say the
musculoskeletal,gastrointestinal and
dermatologic are the most common.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Would you see the same in cats as well?
Are they a whole differentcategory?
Because I'm the first one thatwill admit I don't know much
about cats.
I have a cat and we have apeaceful coexistence, but I
don't know much about themedical side of cats.
So tell us more about you knowmaybe some of the top issues
with cats as well.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yes, I love cats I have two of my own as well and I
feel like, from both a behaviorstandpoint but also just purely
medical, they are alsounderdiagnosed.
They're not seen enough byveterinarians and that's because
it's very stressful to bringyour cat to the vet and so to
then bring them to a veterinary,behaviorist or a specialist is
asking a lot of them.

(06:46):
But when I do see cats, yes, Iwould say it's actually the same
things.
Musculoskeletal disease and Iwill say osteoarthritis is also
very underdiagnosed in both dogsand cats.
So in cats there's some prettygood research to show that cats
over the age of six, at least60% had arthritis in one joint,

(07:07):
50% in more than one joint, andthen once they're over 14, it
can be over 80% have arthritis.
And then there were some thatshowed that even young cats up
to 20% of them can havearthritis.
The same is true for our dogs.
I will say there was a paperthat showed that dogs between
eight months and four years ofage, 40% had arthritis in at

(07:29):
least one joint.
And usually what happens isthat arthritis is not diagnosed
till they're older because we'renot looking for it in our
younger patients.
But osteoarthritis is not adisease of older pets.
So that's my soapbox onarthritis.
But for cats they absolutelycan have it.
They're very subtle on how theyshow that.
So it's the cat who used tojump from the floor to the

(07:53):
counter or the windowsill andnow they have to jump to a chair
before they go to thewindowsill.
So these really subtle changes.
Or instead of just jumpingright up, you can see them
thinking through it andhesitating before they make that
jump up.
Or I had a client that said mycat used to spend all the time
on the top of their cat tree orin the top of a closet.
They don't do that anymore.

(08:14):
So yeah, that's because it'suncomfortable for them to get up
there.
So very subtle.
And then, of course, withlitter box issues, which is a
whole other story.
But also, yeah, gi disease,allergies in cats as well.
We can see that manifest asaggression with body handling.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah.
So I just want to back up to.
You mentioned tools oractivities that you commonly see
.
So backing up to dogs again, doyou find certain activities?
So we can get to tools in asecond but certain activities
you know, obviously dog sportswe have to be mindful of.
And do you find, with the dogguardian side of things, maybe
somebody that's not doing dogsports all the time?

(08:54):
But you see common issuesdepending on their environment
or activities they're doingwhere it's like you know, for
instance, like just vigorousfetch back and forth with no you
know rhyme or reason to it.
What's the some of the morecommon issues you see with
activities that dog guardiansshould be mindful of?

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah.
So the way that I diagnose painand I'm starting to see signs
that are unusual for the dog isusually more subtle.
So I will say a lot of myclients say, well, my dog still
plays fetch, my dog still runsin the backyard, so they can't
be in pain.
And I say, well, in thosesituations adrenaline is kicking
in, it's masking their pain.

(09:30):
So that's not really a fair wayto assess it.
I actually had a reallyinteresting case of a one and a
half year old dog who used topretty incessantly ask to go
outside and play.
Over and over he was diagnosedwith lumbosacral stenosis.
They treated his pain and hestopped doing that and the

(09:50):
theory was, was that dog askingto go out and get that?
Basically adrenaline rush,endorphin release to mask his
pain or make him feel better,and then he didn't need it
anymore?
It was really, reallyfascinating.
So usually what I'm doing is I'mactually telling clients to
look for subtle changes.
So it's when they get up in themorning.

(10:11):
Are they stretching a littlebit longer?
Are they a little stiff beforethey get back into their regular
gait?
When they're using the stairsor getting on and off of
furniture, are they a little bitslower or more hesitant,
similar to our cats On walks,are they slowing down, not
wanting to walk as far?
So it's usually things thatpeople are seeing at home very

(10:31):
subtly when they're relaxed andcalm and not having that rush of
adrenaline.
Same thing when you think abouta veterinary exam is the dog is
usually stressed and we'retrying to manipulate them and
they're not reacting, notbecause they're not painful
sometimes, but because they havethe adrenaline masking it or
because they're so stressed theydon't want to react or show

(10:53):
kind of any vulnerability thatthey freeze in that moment.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, yeah, I just turned 50, so I can relate to
mornings.
I'm getting up very slowly,more slowly than I used to, and
then, of course, when you get tothe gym and you warm up, you
feel much better.
You feel looser, you're gettingable to jump and do things that
you wouldn't do first thing inthe morning.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
So definitely can relate to that.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
So let's talk about some of the equipment people
might use, like front clipharnesses or head halters and
things like that.
Have you seen much research onthat aspect?
So I was talking to DebbieGross-Taraka, who's a rehab
specialist in Connecticut reallyworld-class.
She took care of our dog whenshe had her ACL surgery and one
of the things she saw was commonissues with dogs coming on head

(11:35):
halters, with the ones thatsort of continue to pull and
they're just pulling and theirhead is kind of off to the side
as they're pulling.
So have you seen those or somecommon issues or even some
research on the different typesof tools front clip harnesses,
types of harnesses, those kindsof things.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, I'm often talking with my clients about
the type of tools that they'reusing when they come into the
room.
I'll ask them is this whatyou're usually using at home on
a typical walk?
And if I have a dog with aknown history of any spinal
disease, especially because it'sputting a lot of pressure on
the spine, I will talk about theuse of something like head

(12:11):
halters, even collars.
Clipping a leash to a collar ofany type, you're putting a lot
of pressure on the neck, whichis part of the spine, and that
can cause more issues.
The research on harnesses sofar has been about the way that
it sits on the chest.
So a lot of front clipharnesses, the way that they
used to be made was there was astrap across the chest and so

(12:35):
what happens is that harnesswill sit on those shoulder
joints and it affects movement.
So I am a huge proponent offront clip harnesses, but I
explained to clients thatthere's very specific ones that
we recommend, which is I callthem Y-shaped harnesses.
So it's a strap kind of aroundthe neck, one strap down the
chest, so the dog has normalmobility with their shoulders

(12:59):
but we still have the effect ofbeing able to get control of the
front half of the dog if theywere to pull, and even with that
there are some harnesses thatwill slide and the dog keeps
moving forward.
So it's really a well-fittedone and made to reduce the
pulling.
But that, I find, is the best,because then we're at least
dispersing pressure throughoutthe dog's body instead of
putting all the pressure aroundtheir face, around their neck,

(13:23):
where we can cause a lot moreinjury.
I had a dog who I tried a headhalter with him and instead of
lunging forward he would justthrow his body towards the
trigger.
So I feel like it was even moreharmful to him in that way.
So, depending on every dog,there's different cases.
I have some that the clientonly feels safe walking their

(13:43):
pet with a head halter and thedog is desensitized to it.
But I do really encourage theuse of equipment that disperses
pressure, just so we're notputting too much pressure on one
point, on the dog.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
Do you want to give a shout out to any particular
brands of harnesses?

Speaker 2 (13:59):
So I'd say the three most common ones I recommend to
clients are the Blue 9 BalanceHarness, the PetSafe 3-in-1
Harness, the Freedom Harness canfit well for some dogs, but
some dogs I see it sitting ontheir shoulders, so that more so
depends on their conformation.
But they have the velvet on thebottom which for some of the

(14:20):
shorter haired dogs that's beena benefit for them.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, those are the top three on my list too, so
we're in agreement there so in aperfect world, I'm assuming the
best option is a dog reallywell trained to loose leash,
walk on a rear clip, harness interms of structure and joints
and mobility and things likethat.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, If you have a dog where you're not worried
about pulling, you're notworrying about reactivity, a
back clip harness is a greatoption.
It's just I'm a little biasedin that I don't see dogs that
are calm on walks and aren'tpulling and stressed by
something.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
But yes, absolutely A well-fitting back clip.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Harness is a great option too.
Yeah, I'm in agreement with youthere as well.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Unfortunately we don't see as many dogs that are
going to be okay on a rear clipharness, especially for the
client side of things, the humanside.
They have a tough time alreadymanaging their dogs.
So that's a you know what'sgoing to work best for them for
sure.
Yes, so let's get into, youknow.
So we have a dog that's in pain, our cat that's in pain, and

(15:29):
obviously the common triggersare somebody reaching out,
trying to pet the animal or, asyou mentioned, somebody reaching
down towards a collar oranything like that.
We see often pronounced orovert aggressive responses,
because it's often if a dog oranimal or human is in pain, I
feel like it's more explosiveresponse in some cases.
May not always be, but what aresome of the common triggers,
you know, besides just reachingout and petting?
So like walking by a dog bed,for instance, or calling a dog
off of bed when they don't wantto get off there, those kind of
little more subtle cases.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yep, those are some good examples.
So we always think it's goingto be touching the dog
themselves that triggers painand that's why they react.
But it's even the anticipationof pain in how we might interact
with them that could triggeraggression.
So exactly if they're restingand we walk by them or we're
trying to get them off, theythink it might hurt getting up.

(16:11):
So I'm just going to go aheadand tell them I don't want to
move.
Sometimes it's puttingequipment on the dog.
I had a dog who unfortunatelywas diagnosed with lymphoma in
his spine and anytime they tryto put a harness on, he would
snap at them because it waspainful when they tried to do
that, and it can go back to noteven putting it on but picking

(16:31):
it up and then they say, oh, Iknow what comes next.
So then they'll react to evenseeing their pet parent interact
with something like that.
I also find that childinteractions tend to trigger it
a little faster than adults,because children are
unpredictable and they run andthey yell and I have a toddler
and I can totally relate thatit's very alarming and startling

(16:54):
.
Absolutely.
We can see that quickerescalation for a dog that might
usually growl bare their teeth.
Now they're going from layingdown to lunging, snapping and
biting and to me that is anindication to look for pain.

(17:15):
If I have a dog who has nohistory of doing that before and
suddenly they're lunging tobite, I wonder if there's
something going on physicallywith them.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, how about the cat side of things?
Is it similar in terms of thetriggers?

Speaker 2 (17:29):
With cats I would say a lot of it is body handling
for them.
I guess we don't have to do asmuch manipulation when it comes
to them, unless you are theawesome pet parent who has
harness trained their cat andhas taken them out on walks and
doing more exposure.
And cats generally are good atseparating themselves.
So if they don't want to bebothered while they're resting,

(17:52):
for example, they are good atkind of putting themselves in a
place where it's easier not todo that.
They like to go up high.
So if they're not physicallylimited to do that, they can
help separate themselves.
Versus some of our dogs theydon't want to be touched but
they want to be near us and thenit can be harder for them to
regulate that decision of shouldI lay near my person and

(18:14):
potentially it'll hurt, or do Igo and completely separate
myself and this is ageneralization.
I have dogs that do separatethemselves and I'm always happy
for them to do that if they'rein pain.
But I think that with catsthey're better at moving
themselves away and usually it'sthe human that's not picking up
on it and interacting with thecat more than they might want to

(18:35):
.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, yeah.
So talk about that kind of dogyou were mentioning, and this
I've seen quite a few times overthe years.
Do you hear the comment?
Oh, he wanted to be pet.
He came over to me, sat on mylap and I was petting him and
then after about 30 secondsthat's when he turned around and
snapped at me.
I don't get it.
Like he was, he wanted to bepet, right, and so we have to
explain sort of the reasons forit.
But what do you?
Do you see that commonly andwhat is the typical response you

(18:58):
give to clients with that?

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yes, I see that a lot Part of it is body language.
So a dog approaching is not asolicitation for being touched
in and of itself.
I see the same thing forsniffing A dog.
Sniffing somebody is not askingthem to pet them, it is a
they're just trying to get someinformation about who they are.
I want the nudge, the lean in,I want loose body language, so I

(19:24):
think that's part of it.
But also sometimes a dog reallymay want to be pet and they're
coming and they're loose andthey're wiggly, and then the
person starts to pet them andthen after a few seconds there's
the snap bite and it's veryconfusing and I think the best
way to describe these dogs isconflicted of I do want you to
touch me, but also I'm scaredthat it might hurt or oh, that

(19:44):
did hurt.
You touched my ear and I have anear infection and so sometimes
they have trouble regulatingthat way.
That's where, if I have a dog,definitely with a known history
of biting in that situation orpain around their head, I do a
lot of the petting consent testto say, pet them where they're
most comfortable, usually underthe chin or on the chest, for a
few seconds, pause and see ifthey want more.

(20:06):
If they do not, if they stopthey look away, they walk away,
we're done.
But if they're nudging youagain, then you can continue
kind of that pet-pet pause withthem.
But always err on the side ofcaution.
So if you know that that hasbeen a trigger for them and it's
not predictable to you, don'tpush it.
Learn from previousinteractions with them.
But that can be hard when theylook like they want to be

(20:28):
touched.
But, when you go to touch them,they actually say, never mind.
That was a mistake.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, and it's unfortunate because when we dig
into it it's very clear why thedog or cat might respond like
that.
But you often hear thosecomments he's like Jekyll and
Hyde or it just seems so off.
It's strange.
But I use the analogy sort oflike a deep tissue massage or
somebody scratching your backfor you like you get an itch or
you you have like a sore muscle,and the person starts doing it.

(20:54):
You're like, oh yeah, thatfeels good.
And then after, if they keepdoing it and digging and digging
or scratching, eventually youcan like, ah, oh, no, stop that.
And then you, if they're notlistening, you know, because
dogs are going to tell us withtheir body language and maybe
somebody's missing that nextthing, you know, they're like
that's really painful.
So I think a lot of clientsgrasp that analogy because they

(21:15):
kind of think of it themselves.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
Absolutely yeah.
That's why I like the kind ofthe petting consent or the
pet-pet.
Pause and watch your dog's bodylanguage, make sure they're
really enjoying it.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, so you mentioned behavior and body
language as ways of us, thehumans, and our dog's life's,
telling whether it's the trainer, the veterinarian, or the
clients or the guardian.
So what do you suggest?
Let's say it's a trainer takingon the case, and what kind of
data would be helpful for aveterinarian or veterinary
behaviorist?
So we suspect there's pain orsomething going on.
But it's the subtleties, right?
It's not talking about dogsthat are limping or yelping, you

(21:51):
know, because that's whatpeople think.
When dogs or cats are in pain,we think, oh, these overt
signals, but it's really oftenvery subtle and sometimes even a
professional is going to missit unless we're looking at
behavior patterns, changes inbehavior, certainly when
aggression starts to surface,when it hasn't been there for
years, or something like that.

(22:11):
So for you or otherveterinarians, what's going to
be most helpful for the traineror guardian to tell you when it
comes to either body language,which most of the time the
guardians aren't going torecognize, those subtle signals
but or the behavior?
What's best for us to you know,give you information to help.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, and I appreciate so much whenever I
have a trainer that noticessomething like that and they
tell the client to tell theprimary care vet or to tell me,
because they also get tointeract with that dog in such a
different situation than I do.
And usually if I have a dog,let's say, who has fear-related
aggression towards unfamiliarpeople, they don't warm up to me
within an appointment but thetrainer who comes and brings the
hot dogs every week gets toreally see that dog in a more

(22:50):
relaxed state.
So one thing that's actuallypretty subtle but easy to
document is the dog's resistingperforming certain cues.
When you see that they will doother ones pretty easily.
When you see that they will doother ones pretty easily For
example, sit I have clients thatsay, oh, my dog won't sit, he's
very stubborn, and it turns outthat dog has hip dysplasia or

(23:11):
cruciate disease and it'spainful for them to do that and
that dog usually starts offeringother behaviors to say I don't
want to do that, but I can dothis.
What about this Down?
Pretty similarly, it might beuncomfortable for them.
I also will sometimes noticeeven in my exam room I have some
hardwood floor and then we havesome matting and some dogs will

(23:31):
take themselves off thehardwood floor and go to the
matting to perform certainbehaviors like sit, because they
don't want to do it on aslippery hard surface.
If a trainer is noticing likethey won't do it on this hard
surface but they'll do somethingon a soft surface, that could
be a subtle indication.
They also might see that whenthey're asking a dog to do

(23:51):
certain behaviors, that requiresthem to move their body.
We see some lip licking, someyawning, some more fidget or
displacement behaviors thatthey're uncomfortable with it.
But the other big thing ismobility.
So, watching the dog go from asit to a stand or a stand to a
sit, to a lie down, what arethey doing with their back legs?
Are they sticking them straightout?

(24:12):
Are they having a nice squaresit?
When they are walking themlet's say they're doing training
on walks does the dog seem tobe stiff or, like we said,
limping?
Not as hard to see, butsometimes when you're the one
walking your dog, you can't seewhat's going on with the back
legs the way that somebody elsemight.
And getting videos.

(24:32):
It's just priceless, like it'sa free tool.
Record as many videos from theside, from the back from the
front, and then you can sharethese with the veterinarian, the
primary care veterinarian, theveterinary behaviorist, and
everybody can share these withthe veterinarian, the primary
care veterinarian, theveterinary behaviorist, and
everybody can share thatinformation.
This is something that I tellclients to do is get some videos
of your dog moving around athome and send them to me,

(24:53):
because that is the easiest wayfor me to see those subtle
changes.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, and that takes a trained eye.
You know it's because I gotinto the hustle thing with the
human movements and you know,from again me getting older, we
just wanted to get more mobileand was getting more aware of,
you know, things that I could doto help myself be more mobile,
but also things that could bedamaging, and so I started to
recognize it.
Once you start seeing something, you can't unsee it.

(25:18):
So I started watching peopleand the way they walk and you
can see imbalances and issuesand their postures off.
So I know veterinary behaviorsand folks working in dog sports
medicine especially.
They have the eye for watchingjust the video.
The dog walking side to side onthe screen and then also front
to back directionally is reallyhelpful.

(25:38):
So, yeah, it's fascinating tosee that.
I think it's really cool whensomebody can pick up on.
I see a little subtle issue withthe gate there or something.
And was it you and I?
I can't remember if you and Iwere talking about it.
It was the for cats.
There's some there's.
They're using AI to help assessthe movement of the cats and
it's saying, and it's gettingpretty good about saying, okay,

(26:00):
this cat is walking and there'sso much weight on this side, and
I know they were looking at itfor dogs as well.
Was it you and I talking aboutthat, or have you heard about
that?

Speaker 2 (26:08):
I have heard about it , but I actually I have one of
my cats I think has an abnormalgait, so I've started submitting
his videos to the AI reader.
So I've heard of it, but I'mnot sure if they have any data
yet on the results.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
It's exciting I've been actually talking a lot
about that this season is AI andtechnology and how we're going
to be able to use it, as in bothbehavior work and, of course,
what you're doing with assessingfor health issues.
So we'll see.
You know, we'll hold our breathpatiently and be also a little
bit worried at the same time,but I think it's going to be
super helpful.
I was talking to Sharag Patelabout, like, the monitors for

(26:43):
your heart rate variability andyou know same thing.
We could start looking at thatfor dogs and saying when they're
having a stress day and allthose things to help us
understand their.
You know how they slept, howthey're doing, how you're
feeling today, right, especiallywith this, this topic right,
with pain, and you know, thinkabout a dog that's been super
stressed because they have beenin pain all day.
A lot of those biologicalmarkers will tell tough day.

(27:09):
So today we should take it easy.
Maybe you shouldn't take thedog to the dog park today, right
?
Those kinds of things.
So let's slide into talkingabout treatments, right?
So how can we help these dogsand cats?
So, obviously you've got painmeds and things like that, but
let's talk through that and then, what are common things and
then we can talk about maybe thephysical rehab side of things

(27:32):
and then we can talk about whatwe can do at home as trainers
and behavior consultants andguardians.
So you want to start with themed side, like, what are common
things?
Maybe even talk us through thepain med trials for someone.
We're just trying to see ifit's, if the dog is in pain.
we do the pain trial, so have atit.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
So for ruling out pain, sometimes all we have are
pain medication trials.
I will often recommend you knowyou could see an orthopedic
surgeon, you could see a rehabspecialist.
For various reasons I do getresistance from clients, whether
the dog has significant fear,regression in those situations,

(28:10):
whether it's cost, whetherthey've gotten to the point
where they say, if you can't fixthis, I'm not ready, I'm not
willing to do anything else.
So the most cost effective anda quick way to rule out pain is
a pain medication trial, andthere's different ways you can
go about it.
So the way I like to thinkabout it is you have your NSAIDs

(28:33):
, your non-steroidalanti-inflammatory drugs.
So in dogs you might thinkabout something like carprofin.
In cats there's Onsior andthese treat acute inflammation.
So most of the time you thinkabout it.
If the dog kind of runs andthey tweak something and they
just need to reduce acuteinflammation, that's when it

(28:55):
comes out.
But it can also be used in apain med trial.
The other kind of pain that Isee more frequently is what I
call chronic low-gradeneuropathic pain.
So it's kind of that low-gradesimmering pain that there isn't
an acute damage to the leg, to ajoint, but it's more so like

(29:16):
osteoarthritis, where you canfeel it on a day-to-day, and
that one is a lot more subtleand harder for pet parents to
point at because it developsmore gradually.
So you can do an NSAID trialwhere they get it every single
day.
Sometimes we'll do it for amonth to really give time for it
to have its full effect and forthe clients to have enough time

(29:39):
to really observe whether itchanges their dog's mobility or
their behavior or both.
I tell my clients to kind oflook out for any changes,
because sometimes they don'tthink that their mobility is any
different but then afterthey're on the medication they
say, oh, my dog's more playful.
I didn't realize that that wassomething that they were

(30:00):
struggling with and then formore of that neuropathic pain.
So if I have a dog with we knowor highly suspect osteoarthritis
, I'm usually talking aboutsomething like gabapentin or
pregabalin or amantadine, wherewe're trying to target that
pathway and sometimes we'll do acombination of the two.
I talk to the client.

(30:21):
I say, listen, if you want todo both, if you want to kind of
throw everything out there, wecan.
If you want to be a little morescientific about it, to say I
want to know which one will helpmy dog.
You can also start with one ata time.
Something nice about gabapentinand pregabalin is that while
they treat neuropathic pain,they also do treat anxiety.
So if you have a client that'slike I just want to hit both of

(30:44):
those with one medication.
That can be a really niceoption from that standpoint, and
then you might go downdepending on the severity.
There are things likeinjections that they can receive
.
So for osteoarthritis there islabrella for dogs, helencia for
cats.
Some of patients that have moresevere pain will go to
neurologists to have moreinjections done with things like

(31:08):
ketamine and that kind of thing.
But I think from starting point, going for those oral
medications is a good, easy wayto get clients to buy in, to say
, all right, let's rule out painfirst.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah, any side effects that we should be aware
of in terms of, especially whenit comes to behavior, so
potential for increasedaggression with any of these
meds or considerations to lookfor or be aware?

Speaker 2 (31:30):
of.
That's a good question.
So for non-steroidalanti-inflammatories I'm not
worried about behavior sideeffects, more so GI side effects
.
I have to look at the kidneyfunctions, liver functions For
gabapentin and pregabalin Imentioned.
They also do reduce anxiety andany medication that affects
behavior has the potential sideeffect of increased anxiety.

(31:54):
I tell my clients, no matterwhat I prescribe, that is a
potential side effect.
Not very common with gabapentinand pregabalin, though, and
then with Librella and Selencia.
From what I have heard,behavior side effects are not
expected with those.
So generally from a behaviorside effect profile, there are
safe options.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, good, I was talking to I think it was Dr
Pachel a few years back and wewere talking about Apoquel and
one of the very small sideeffects or lesser known side
effects to Apoquel.
So we're talking about skinissues, you know, and Apoquel
can be used to treat some ofthose skin issues and the
potential for increasedaggression in some rare cases.

(32:34):
That was a few years ago, soany updates on that or what you
guys are seeing?

Speaker 2 (32:39):
That's still true.
It's not common but it'sdefinitely observed and I've had
cases where the dog is startedon Apoquil, aggression develops,
the medication is stopped andthe aggression stops, so it can
be a very clear presentation ofit.
You can also see it with prointhat's used to treat urinary
incontinence.
You can see it with someanti-seizure medications like

(33:02):
phenobarbital and prednisone, sothe steroid that is used to
treat many things.
That can also be seen with that.
So unfortunately there are someother behavior medications but
from the pain medicationstandpoint we are generally not
concerned with that.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
We're pretty good, good, good, good.
So we're going to take a quickbreak to hear a word from our
sponsors and we're going to comeback and chat about some of the
physical rehab stuff we coulddo and other things we could do
at home to help our animals thatmight be experiencing pain.
So we're going to be right back.
Hi, friends, it's me again andI hope you are enjoying this

(33:44):
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All right, we are back here withHagar Hauser and we've been
talking about pain in both dogsand cats.
We talked about meds rightbefore the break, different
types of meds that might be used.
Now what else can we do at home?

(37:04):
So we have sometimes limitedaccess to canine rehab
facilities where they're helpingwith lots of you know.
Some places are world-class,but unfortunately those are far
and few between.
So what do you usuallyrecommend for your patients and
even, maybe even the trainersthat are listening in, that they
incorporate at home?
Is it environmental changes?
Is it just be careful with this, or do this activity instead?
What do you go to with that?

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, I love working with rehab specialists because I
find that they can alsodiagnose pain a lot more
accurately in the setting thatthey have where depending on the
location.
But they can make it more lowstress.
There's treats involved,there's a lot of motivation and
encouragement.
They have a lot of tools attheir disposal.

(37:45):
They can do acupuncture, theycan do laser, they can do
underwater treadmill.
So they have a lot of tools attheir disposal.
So if a client is willing to godown that route, I think that's
an excellent option.
It's not always possible.
I mentioned I have some dogsthat cannot be touched by
unfamiliar people, so rehabwould be very stressful for them

(38:06):
.
So some things they can do athome there are some passive
range of motion or even activerange of motion exercises they
can do at home if their petparent will also let them do
some body handling.
That can at least be prescribedby a rehab veterinarian.
And then there are adjustmentsthat clients can make within

(38:26):
their home to make it morefriendly.
Let's say, if the dog does havediagnosed arthritis or mobility
issues, things like putting outmats throughout the house so
that they're not walking onslippery floors, adding kind of
a landing pad if the dog isjumping on and off of furniture
so they're not hitting hardfloor.
Actually, for my dog I found Iput down a yoga mat next to our

(38:49):
bed because when he landed, thetraction prevents the slipping
out from under him and thensteps.
So if you have slippery steps,adding some padding to those can
make a big difference as well.
And considering even theday-to-day like is there food on
the floor and is it hard forthem to bend down to eat that?
Can we elevate that?
During training, the trainerscan recommend things like

(39:11):
instead of tossing treats on theground, can you offer treats
from a level that's morecomfortable for the dog to reach
and telling them you know, Idon't really need your dog to
sit and lay down.
Let's see what else we canreplace it with.
So can we ask your dog to touchbefore they eat or to look at
you before they eat, instead ofalways having to sit down?

(39:33):
So modifying the plan dependingon the dog's capabilities.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think whoever invented laminate floors
was not thinking of dogs at all, because that's everything you
mentioned I keep going back tolike that slippery laminate
floor and that's in most modernhomes these days and it's just
terrible for dogs A lot of times.
They're slipping and slidingand it's something you don't
think about.
But imagine if us, as humans,we just had an ice rink for like

(39:59):
our house and we had like youcan imagine how that's going to
impact your joints and you knowhow you feel like you're just
tense all the time, slipping andit's just adjusting for that
kind of surface absolutely yeah,yeah, okay.
So we talked about someenvironmental changes there,
some things that trainers can do.
Anything else that you thinkwhen it comes to the aggression

(40:20):
side again?
So we're focusing on theaggression and avoiding that.
What is the most common orhelpful things you found for
your pet guardians to say, okay,whether it's dogs or cats.
To say do this, or you know, oravoid this, or be careful with
this.
That's going to keep them safe,right.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah.
So considering what triggersthat dog or that cat, we talked
about, for example, petting them, so that petting consent test
can be really helpful.
Don't go up and touch a dog ora cat who's resting comfortably.
Call them over to you, ask ifthey want to be interacted with.
For that dog and cat who tendsto still lay down right in the

(41:00):
middle of foot traffic where youhave to pass them.
But if you pass them whilethey're resting then they get
triggered.
We talk about moving that bedout of foot traffic, putting it
in a corner or creating a safeplace for them to say if you
don't want to be touched, gointo your crate, go into this
bedroom, go into this spot sothat they can have a place that

(41:22):
they know nobody will botherthem.
And we'll also usually put thaton cue to say, like, go to your
place.
So if you need to walk pastthem, you're telling them to
move.
They're making that decisionversus you pushing them to the
side or pulling them.
Like what you said, if you'reapproaching an animal on
furniture, if they'reuncomfortable, if they're

(41:42):
painful, then they might reactnegatively to that.
With dogs and cats, my cats knowthe touch cue.
You can say touch and call themoff of furniture instead of
physically moving them fromthere If it seems that they get
startled and then that startleturns into guarding their body
and displaying aggression.
I always encourage that peopletalk to the animals before they

(42:03):
come and touch them to say hey,fluffy, do you want to say hi,
do you want to interact?
And if they're just kind ofgiven that whale eye, saying
this is not the time, okay, Ican see that, versus just kind
of coming up from behind andtouching them.
And barriers, barriers, areyour best friend with really
many aggression cases.
So, especially if there's kidsin the home using those baby

(42:26):
gates attached to the wall,using play pens, where child is
in play pen and dog or cat areon the outside of the playpen
ways, so that the adult, theparent, doesn't have to
constantly be on top of both ofthem where there is some sort of
barrier, because children tendto climb on dogs and pull on

(42:47):
them and those are all thingsthat will trigger a dog to show
aggression, especially if theyhave pain, even without pain,
but especially with pain.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
So let's get into the weedshere a little bit and start
getting into some of thecomplexities of these kinds of
cases.
So you know, we talked aboutthe chicken or egg stuff.
Let's use a case like Apoquel.
Right, we have a dog that's gotsome skin issues and they're
showing aggression towardspeople that try to touch because
they're maybe you know, they'reuncomfortable in their skin, so

(43:16):
to speak.
So the dog is put on Apoquel totreat that issue.
But then we see the aggressionkind of stay about the same even
with behavior change strategiesemployed, right?
So somebody's doing counterconditioning at home.
They're doing consent-basedprotocols.
So you have to like I'm assumingin your line you have to say,
all right, is it the Apoquel, oris it the pain?

(43:36):
The dog's still uncomfortable,or let's take it a step further.
So now we're seeing increasedanxiety to things in the
environment.
So do you start saying, allright, this dog potentially
could use behavior meds too,which you also have to monitor.
So now we're monitoring severalthings to say is it pain, is it
the Apoquel, is it the newbehavior meds?

(43:57):
So how do you work throughthose cases from your side as a
clinician, like watching themeds, especially if you have to
navigate conversations and datafrom trainers and guardians.

Speaker 2 (44:07):
Oh yeah, this is why I love being a veterinary
behaviorist.
I feel like a detective in thesecases where I have to figure
out is it this, is it this, isit both?
Which?
To be honest, in most casesit's a combination of multiple
things.
We can't pinpoint it to justone, as much as I wish I had
cases where it turns out to be ahundred percent pain.
I treat the pain and it's over.

(44:27):
That's pretty rare, whetherit's because they've already now
developed negative associationsassociated with the pain even
though the pain is gone, or dogswith anxiety have a lower pain
threshold, so they're moresensitive to pain, and vice
versa, if a dog is experiencingpain, it lowers their threshold

(44:49):
for anxiety, so then now they'remore likely to react or be
trigger stacked.
So I think the dogs that I seeand the cats that I see are a
little bit more sensitive inboth of those situations.
And it's also hard because as aveterinary behaviorist, I'm
usually not the first personthat sees the dog or cat for
that issue.
So I'm usually getting 100pages of medical records, I'm

(45:12):
getting the trainer notes, I'mgetting the client's
questionnaire and it's my job tofigure out the timeline of
everything.
What has been tried?
How has the dog responded toeach of the treatments that have
been attempted?
It gets very complicated andthis is why appointments with
veterinary behaviorists are long, especially for the initial
consult, because there's a lotto kind of pick out.

(45:35):
What I find is sometimes dogsand cats are put on medications
and the client will say itdidn't help or it only helped a
little bit and something will bestopped and then another
medication will be done.
And that will happen over andover to the point where I meet
dogs that have been on fivebehavior meds before they've met

(45:56):
me and I asked the client I'mlike well, it was a low dose,
did you see anything?
And they say I don't know.
I think it helped and we'retrying to kind of figure out was
it the dosing was wrong or wasit that the prescribing doctor
didn't really know whatquestions to ask the client to
know if the medications werehelping or if there's a pain

(46:18):
component?
Let's say they were put on painmeds and behavior meds at the
same time.
So I will say every case isdifferent and every client is
different.
So I meet clients that sometimesare at the end of the rope and
they were like I want you to doeverything at the same time and
I don't care if I don't knowwhat's helping my dog, because
as long as they're better, I'mhappy.

(46:40):
And then I have the clientsthat say I want to be as
systematic as possible, I wantto do one thing at a time.
So it depends on the severityof the case.
Now, if it's a case wherethey're considering behavioral
euthanasia, we're doingeverything, there's no question.
But if it's something that theysay I'm willing to work through
this, I feel sick, this is asafe situation, then we might be

(47:02):
more systematic about it.
A lot of behavior diagnosesreally are, after you exclude
medical diagnoses, so kind ofcondition medical diagnoses of
exclusion.
So if you have a dog or a catwith behavior changes, you
should be doing a medical workupon them, no matter what, before

(47:22):
they even get to the veterinarybehaviorist.
But sometimes that's not thecase and I'm the first one to
say you know, has anybody lookedat, done an orthopedic exam?
Has your dog had any thoroughblood work done?
And we have to start witheverything at the same time.
So I guess the real answer isit really depends on every case.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
And it can get very complicated.
But I will say a lot of myclients are open to trying a lot
of things because they'vereached out to a veterinary
behaviorist and willing to godown that route.
I am so deep in this case andthere are so many things going
on.
If you have the ability torefer to a veterinary

(48:05):
behaviorist, it's totally fairto do it at that point because
it gets very complicated.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
I don't know how you guys do it, the time consumption
, the time commitment it takesfor one case, you know.
So, thinking through that, it'ssort of like you were saying
just like you're a detective ona crime scene, you have a lot to
lot to pick through, all theevidence or what's been tried,
and a lot of times people havetried a million things with a
million people, a milliontrainers, a million vets, like
it's they've tried a lot oftimes before they get to you.

(48:32):
So you're sifting through allthis information that could take
like hours of time and then youknow you're expected.
Okay, what about the follow-up?
What about the training?
What about the behavior change?
Do you have a trainer on staffor tech on staff that does
behavior?
It's like it's a lot.
And then some of you guys douniversity work and teaching and
research.
I'm like forget it.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
I'm like done I'm like I clocked out just hearing
that.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
So yeah, hats off to you guys, because you guys
really every behaviors I've metis just really amazing and how
they are able to do so much insuch little time.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah.
So let's dive a little deeperinto some of this geekiness here
and think about how dogs orcats experience pain.
So one of the common things youhear is you know, dogs or cats
especially cats can mask painreally well.
They hide it and the theory, Iguess and you can correct me if
I'm wrong but it's sort of anevolutionary uh aspect to it,
like it's better to hide it thanto show the world that you are
primed for picking and um.

(49:32):
But you know there's there'sdifferent terms nociception,
interoception, in terms of howanimals or humans.
Well, humans are animals butcan experience pain.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Because one of the debates toowe think about observing animals
for this topic, we want to knowif an animal's in pain so we

(49:55):
can help them.
But we also get into thatconversation around tools and
aversives and there's anargument.
Okay, some people say how doyou really know the dog's
experiencing pain or finds itaversive?
Because it's really unique tothe individual.
So thoughts on that.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
I know it's a big, open question, but yeah, so we
know that dogs and cats feelpain, similar to how we do, but
also, just like with humans,there are different pain
thresholds within individuals ofevery species.
So some dogs people will say,oh, this dog is very dramatic in

(50:33):
that they vocalize a lot whensomething painful happens,
versus this dog just freezes andis stoic.
I don't like the word dramatic,but some dogs are more vocal
about things that are painfuland others won't show it.
It doesn't mean they don't feelthe pain.
It just means that they mighteither be shut down enough that
they're not going to react to it, or maybe one individual has a

(50:56):
higher pain threshold thananother.
And this goes back to thesubtleties of maybe they're lip
licking or yawning or lookingaway or their tail tucks, and
that's how we know that they'rein pain, versus some might snarl
, lunge and bite somebody who'sdoing something that's painful
to them, and sometimes actuallyit's oh, now my dog doesn't pull

(51:18):
on leash because they are onthis, let's say, aversive tool.
Is that because they've learnedthat?
Or it's because they're tryingto avoid pain, and to me that
says it probably caused someform of discomfort to them.
But yeah, the pain pathway indogs is pretty similar to what
we experience.
So that idea of nociception isbasically getting the sensory

(51:40):
information from whether it'sheat, cold, pressure, different
chemicals that you can feel.
The interoception is more ofinternal sensation.
So this is if you're hungry, ifyou're thirsty, how you're
breathing which makes me thinkabout our brachycephalic,
short-faced dogs, that what kindof discomfort do they feel from

(52:00):
having trouble breathingsometimes?
And then you have yourexteroception, which is more of
external threats and things thatyou are reacting to to limit
injury, so that fight or flightresponse.
But the way that they feel it,there's kind of these four steps
to it which I took a littledive into, this kind of going
back into my veterinary schoolstudies to look at you know

(52:23):
what's the pain pathway, step bystep.
So we think about there's thetransduction, which basically
means these neurons that feelthe discomfort, and then it gets
transmitted from the peripheralreceptors into the spinal cord,
more into the central receptors, and this is where things like
opioids and NSAIDs are targetingto block the sensation of pain

(52:46):
and then it gets modulated.
So this is things likeserotonin might affect now how
it gets taken up into the brainand talk about the perception.
If you're anxious, that'llaffect how it's modulated and
then it gets into the brain andthat's how you perceive pain.
So this is affected by so manythings.

(53:07):
This can be from personalexperience, what that dog has
experienced in their life beforethis moment.
It can be related to theirgenetics, to if they have other
medical conditions going on atthe same time, the social
context.
So all of that can affect theperception, which is that
individual experience.
So there's so many points alongit that it can get affected

(53:29):
before the dog displays signs ofpain.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
And I'm thinking along these lines, just my
mind's going to pain that welearn to tolerate, versus pain
that becomes chronic.
So me getting older, getting upout of bed in the morning,
that's more of a.
It's not something I'm going tobuild a tolerance to,
necessarily, unless I dosomething about it Versus, you
know, when I was younger I didsome martial arts and you know
you start taking hits orwhatever and you get kind of

(53:53):
callous to it.
You get more used to it, so youdevelop a tolerance to it.
So I'm kind of just thinkingout loud here.
But when it comes to certaintools that we might use, how
much that is going to impactthings on.
You know, in terms of we hearthat term punishment callous,
right.
So somebody using a prongcollar, for instance, and the
dog starts at first reacts to it.

(54:15):
You know they stop pulling fora second but then they start
pulling or they get more excited.
Think of some of the labs thatI used to foster.
You know they seem very hardyin terms of you know, like a
Cavalier King, charles, spanielor something.
But what are your thoughts onthat?
Do you find that there's sortof a difference there?
Some dogs can learn to toleratesome types of pain, while
others can become chronic andless tolerant over time.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
That's an interesting question.
I would say that, in terms ofthe research, I'm not sure about
that and I'm a little biasedfrom my personal experience and
the population of dogs that Isee, because they are anxious
and very sensitive and do nothabituate well.
They actually usually becomesensitized to things that are

(55:00):
stressful to them.
So it usually goes in theopposite direction.
I see a lot of learnedhelplessness and kind of
shutting down from aversivesituations, but not necessarily
tolerance for them.
It's not that they have relaxedbody language and they're
comfortable, it's just that theyhave more of that frozen
response and that's as much aswe can use, because, as much as

(55:24):
we wish they could tell us whatthey're feeling, a lot of it is
based off of guessing from bodylanguage and posturing and
vocalization.
So I always go back to well,does that dog look relaxed?
Because I see dogs that aretold to be they do great or
they're fine with this training,and I see pictures and videos
and I say, well, I see 10different signs of stress in

(55:46):
this video.
So what is your definition of?
This?
Is fine or what is accepted ortolerable?
But from the more biologicallevel, I'd be really interested
to see if there was moreresearch on that, yeah, yeah, so
, and you mentioned anxiety is acertain a by-product of pain,

(56:06):
especially chronic pain.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Now, when you start looking at we talked a little
bit about behavior meds, butlet's talk a little bit more
about those combos of whenyou're treating a.
Or maybe you can think of acase that you've worked on
lately where it's been somewhatcomplex.
You treated some pain butbecause of the chronic issues
you've had some GI stuff goingon.
Is it stress?
Is it the meds?
And then you have to bring inbehavior meds.

(56:29):
Can you think of any casesrecently that are top of mind
for you, that are somewhat morecomplex in that regard, that you
had to really navigate things?

Speaker 2 (56:38):
I had one case that it wasn't a classic presentation
of pain.
The dog actually came to me forconflict-related aggression, so
aggression towards the petparents, and she was about two
and a half, she was a rescue mixand she also had aggression
towards veterinary staff, someresource guarding, and then they

(57:01):
just kind of mentioned shewould check her hind end, kind
of look back at her hind end.
They didn't know what to thinkof it.
Was it a fidget displacementbehavior?
Was there some anal glanddisease going on?
And so I started her onfluoxetine.
She had been on gabapentin butthey didn't really think it

(57:22):
helped, so we tried to wean itoff.
Had been on gabapentin but theydidn't really think it helped,
so we tried to wean it off.
When we started the wean theysaid, oh no, her skin is
twitching more, she is moreanxious, she's more arousable.
When we brush her hind end sheis yelping now.
So it was very subtly helpingfrom that point of view.
So we said, well, let's try anon-steroidal, anti-inflammatory

(57:44):
and joint supplements, which wehaven't really gone down that
path yet, but I'm a hugeproponent for joint supplements.
Most dogs should really be onthem.
And then she became playful andshe started asking them to pet
her more, which they hadn't seenbefore.
But she still was looking backat her hind end, she kept doing
that check-in.
Dil was looking back at herhind end, she kept doing that

(58:06):
check-in.
So the suspicion was does shefeel something that we don't
know what it is, but she feelsit, some neuropathic pain we
talked about.
Well, where do we go from here?
Do we go to a neurologist andget an MRI done?
Do we see a rehab specialist?
But every path led to nobody isgoing to be able to touch this
dog awake, so rehab reallywasn't an option for her.

(58:29):
If they do an MRI and they findsomething, is that going to
change what we do?
Not necessarily, really, we'regoing to pain management.
So then I added amantadine,which also helps treat
neuropathic pain, which helpedeven more.
So we kind of had to go downthis path of treating things
with different medications andwe kept seeing behavioral

(58:51):
improvement.
But even still she's doing muchbetter, much more tolerant of
being touched, showing a lotmore warning signs if she's
uncomfortable.
But she had an incident whereshe was kind of jumping on her
hind legs playing with somebody.
They went to get the toy fromher.
She yelped and she bit.
So it's you know as much as wecan do to help control her

(59:12):
discomfort.
We can't get 100% control andit's also kind of been her go-to
response is, when she'suncomfortable, to kind of snap
at whoever's closest to her.
Yeah, it's been really hard towork through and it's one of
those cases that remind me thatI mean absolutely amazing pet
parent.
She is doing everything forthis dog, but we often have some

(59:33):
limitations of how much we canhelp each individual dog and how
much we can really get theanswer of what is it that is
causing discomfort for her.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Yeah, sounds like very much a team that you have
going with this guardian, whichis wonderful when somebody's
invested that much in reallytaking their time to go through
the steps and the process of it,because that definitely sounds
like a complex case with lots ofvariables.
Can we talk a little bit moreabout the dogs that check their
hind end or maybe some of thesecompulsive behaviors we might

(01:00:03):
see?
So pain-related tail chasing orphantom limb syndrome or
excessive licking, those kindsof dogs where?
What do you do there?
So if it's, do you feel likesometimes it's again that
chicken or egg?
The behavior issue?
So cause it has me thinkingabout, you know, when we observe
dogs around the world, you knowwe see a lot of these free
roaming or street dogs.

(01:00:23):
We don't see that tail chasing,flank sucking, you know,
compulsive behavior.
It's rare, if ever, because youhave to think about how much
our modern society's, you knowenvironment, has played a role
in that.
But so you see these compulsivebehaviors start to surface.
Maybe shadow chasing that's notalways necessarily pain related
but like, let's go with thetail chasing.
Remember that video that wassurfacing that dog that's sort

(01:00:45):
of biting at its hind leg whenit had a bone.
It was like a golden retrieveror some sort of mix, like a
golden dog that was floatingaround years ago.
But it has me thinking aboutthat.
You know, the behavior side.
Is it the behavior, is it thepain?
So can you think of any caseslike that or talk us through
what's going on there?

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
Yeah, those cases are very complicated, I also find,
because once it becomescompulsive it's very hard to
break the cycle and usually ourgoal is not that we're going to
eliminate it, but more so we'lldecrease frequency or intensity
of it.
The tail chasing the mostcommon dogs we think about are
German Shepherds, and there'sresearch to show that they are

(01:01:27):
more predisposed to it and theyalso are more predisposed to a
lumbosacral stenosis, which is anarrowing of the spine near the
hind end.
And so then we think well, isit that they're having
neuropathic pain from that andthat's causing the tail chasing?
Or did the tail chasing comefirst and then they're damaging
their tail and then they'recausing more issues?

(01:01:48):
So that can get very tricky.
Anytime I meet a German Shepherdwho's tail chasing I'm saying
we need to rule out back painfor them.
Sometimes it's not as clear cutwhere they say oh, my dog
always kind of playfully wentafter their tail.
My dog always kind of playfullywent after their tail.
But then the more stressorsthey were exposed to, the more

(01:02:10):
it became their go-to responseand then it developed into a
compulsive behavior.
So it's not always clear cutthat way.
Another common example is I getthe acral lick dermatitis or
that hot spots where the dogswill kind of lick the same spot
over and over, and I havedermatologists who will say, no,
we ruled out physical.
Now you need to see a veterinarybehaviorist and then I'm

(01:02:31):
treating the anxiety but thenthey're still having flares of
allergy.
So we're sending this dog backand forth to say, okay, we're
good on our end, what about yourend?
Okay, now we need a little bitmore help on your end.
So it's not always that once wefigure it out they're good, we
have to usually continue to makeadjustments and sometimes the

(01:02:52):
way that we are determining ifit's anxiety based is we put
them on an anxiety medicationand see if there's improvement.
So I would say there's somecompulsive behaviors like air
snapping.
There's some compulsivebehaviors like air snapping,
where I have seen that resolveon a behavior medication.
But when it comes to moreself-mutilating type compulsive

(01:03:13):
behaviors, they're a lot harderto get control of because once
they do make contact and theyhurt themselves, then you're
treating the pain from thatinjury and then it kind of
becomes this really viciouscycle.
So usually it's a veterinarybehaviorist who's working very
closely with another specialistwhere we're trying to target

(01:03:35):
both of those at the same time.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Yeah, in terms of the medication, if you want to
touch on that, is it?
Let's say it's a compulsivebehavior like, uh, bull terrier
tail chasing or dopamine flanksucking, those kind of things.
Are we still seeing this sametype of meds that they've talked
about over the last few years?

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
and then, in terms of behavior, just increasing
enrichment to help the animals,that tend to be what's happening
now so in terms of medication,the research has shown that if
fluoxine, generic Prozac andClomacom or Clomipravine have
been effective in treatingcompulsive behaviors, a newer

(01:04:13):
medication that we use isvenlafaxine, which it's an SNRI,
so target serotonin andnorepinephrine and in humans it
is used to treat neuropathicpain sometimes.
So if you have a dog who hasanxiety and neuropathic pain,
it's a really nice option.
So that can also be consideredin these cases and gabapentin,

(01:04:36):
pregabalin are usuallyconsidered as well, especially
if you're suspicious thatthere's a pain component to
what's going on.
If you want to get a little bitmore specific, if it's like a
potential skin disease andanxiety, there are also some
behavior medications that havesome antihistaminic effect when
you think about, like Benadrylor Zyrtec.
So if you're trying to targetthe itch and the anxiety, so

(01:04:59):
that might be more of like youramitriptyline, but
research-based.
Usually fluoxetine orclomipramine have been the ones
that have been looked at From abehavior modification standpoint
.
It is hard because sometimesthese dogs are immediately over
threshold and hard to redirect.
When I'm using medications, mygoal is to improve ability to

(01:05:21):
redirect out of these episodesand, like I mentioned, improve,
reduce frequency and intensity.
But mental enrichment I lovethat because it's.
If there's something that helpsthem self-soothe, can we get
them to have a different outletthat is not going towards
themselves, for example, butchewing on something like a hard
food toy to diffuse some of theanxiety.

(01:05:44):
And also we know chewing iscalming to dogs so it could also
help even prevent it.
So I tell clients give thosethings before an episode is most
likely to happen if there issome sort of pattern to it
Redirection.
So I teach a lot of them to dolook or touch or find it, just
to kind of snap them out of itif we can Safe place.

(01:06:05):
So for some dogs they know howto self-soothe if they're put in
a specific area.
Some dogs it's their crate.
They love their crate and whenthey're in there they can calm
down more easily and they don'tengage in those behaviors.
Versus if they're given morefree roam, then they have more
anxiety and don't know how tocope.
They'll revert to thosebehaviors.
So lots of ways depending onthat dog's temperament and how

(01:06:28):
it presents.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Amazing Hagar.
I could literally talk to youall day, but I want to be
mindful of your time, especiallybeing about behaviors.
So where can people find you?

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
So I don't do social media in terms of my Smart yeah
for my mental health.
I don't do social media interms of my smart yeah for my
mental health.
I I don't do that to promotemyself.
Um, so you can find me on myhospital's website if you are
interested in connecting interms of seeing me as a client,
but also if you're a trainer whowants to network and talk, or a

(01:06:59):
primary care veterinarian, I'malways happy to, to talk and
help, because I know there arenot enough of us, not enough
veterinary behaviorists, soanyway, I can help.
So my hospital is MetropolitanVeterinary Associates, so you
can find me there if you need toconnect, but otherwise I'm a
little incognito.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
All right, I'll be sure to put a link in the show
notes to your website.
Thank you so much for coming on, and I do hope to see you again
in the future.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
Thank you so much.
Me too, this has been reallyfun.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
It was truly enlightening to talk with Dr
Hauser about the oftenoverlooked role of pain in
behavior challenges.
Her ability to connect the dotsbetween physical discomfort,
emotional well-being andbehavioral outcomes gives us a
deeper, more passionate lens forworking with both dogs and cats
.
Whether you're a trainer, vetor pet parent.

(01:07:54):
Dr Hauser's insights are apowerful reminder of how much
our animals are communicating ifwe know how to listen.
And if you're ready to godeeper into understanding and
helping dogs with aggression,visit aggressivedogcom.
Whether you're a professionalor a dedicated dog guardian,
you'll find everything from theAggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive program of its

(01:08:16):
kind, to expert-led webinars,informative articles and the
Aggression and Dogs Conferencehappening September 26th through
28th 2025, in Charlotte, northCarolina, with both in-person
and virtual options.
And don't forget to check outour Help for Dogs with
Aggression bonus episodes, whichare solo shows where I walk you
through real-world strategiesfor issues like resource

(01:08:38):
guarding, fear-based aggression,territorial behavior and more.
Just hit subscribe or head tothe show notes for more info.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends
you.
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