Puppies! Puppies! Puppies! A Deep Dive into Socialization and Building Resiliency with Kathy Callahan

Kathy Callahan joins us for this episode to chat about the enriching world of puppy fostering, focusing on the critical aspects of puppy socialization and building resiliency. Her personal stories are filled with practical advice on setting up a positive environment to ensure puppies grow into well-adjusted dogs, making this episode a must-listen for anyone eager to foster and socialize a puppy effectively.

About Kathy:
Certified as a dog trainer (CPDT-KA) and a family dog mediator (FDM), Kathy Callahan specializes in puppies. She and her family have fostered more than 200 of them in the past decade, and her business, PupStart, is focused on puppyhood coaching. 

Kathy’s the author of two books: the forthcoming Welcoming Your Puppy from Planet Dog (April 2024) and 101 Rescue Puppies: One Family’s Story of Fostering Dogs, Love, and Trust (2020). In addition, she writes monthly on training and behavior for the industry-leading publication Whole Dog Journal.

She recently released her latest book:
Old Dog, New Dog: A Guide to Supporting Your Aging Best Friend and Welcoming a New One.
A collaborative guide with respected trainer and behavior consultant, Helen St. Pierre!

Kathy lives in Alexandria, VA with her husband Tom. They’re technically in the empty-nest phase of parenting, but the house is still active and joyful thanks to the furry foster-fails: Mojo the German Shepherd mix, George the Great Pyrenees mix, Kreacher the Chow mix, and Mr. Bojangles, the tuxedo cat.
https://www.puppypicks.com/about-kathy

Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com

Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference

Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes

Check out all of our webinars, courses, and educational content here:
Webinars, courses, and more!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
I receive a ton of questions about puppies and
aggression, so I thought whatbetter way to dive into many of
these puppy topics than with anexpert?
Kathy Callahan, a CPDT-KA and afamily dog mediator, joins us
for this episode.
We talk about everything fromproper socialization and I
emphasize the word proper thereto building resiliency and how

(00:24):
we can work to avoid aggression.
She and her family havefostered more than 200 puppies
in the past decade and herbusiness, pupstart, is focused
on puppyhood coaching.
Kathy is the author of twobooks Welcoming your Puppy from
Planet Dog and 101 RescuePuppies One Family's Story of
Fostering Dogs Love and Trust.
In addition, she writes monthlyon training and behavior for

(00:46):
the industry-leading publicationHall Dog Journal, and if you
are enjoying the bitey end ofthe dog, you can support the
podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there'sa
variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in
Scottsdale, arizona, with bothin-person and online options.

(01:09):
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression

(01:31):
in dogs.
Hey guys, welcome back to theBitey End of the Dog.
This week, we're going to betalking about puppies,
everything puppies, and I've gota puppy expert with me this
week.
Kathy Callahan is joining us,and you know I like to have a
lot of mix of both practitionersand scientists and academics on

(01:53):
this show, and so Kathy isdefinitely in that practitioner
side, with hands-on experienceand well, more than 200 puppies
in and out of her home over theyears.
So welcome to the show, kathy.
Thank you, I'm delighted to behere, so I want to first jump in
and ask you know, what got youinto having all of these puppies
come to your home?
How do you end up with so manypuppies in and out?

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Right, you're a crazy hoarder.
What's going on?
So these are foster puppies.
These are through a rescueorganization and we started
about a decade ago and, like somany people who get into
fostering, we did it because wehad lost a dog and we weren't
ready to add.
You know, we've always had dogsand we weren't ready to add

(02:35):
another one to our pack becausewe were too heartbroken.
So somebody suggested fosteringand of course we had the normal
fears that every dog lover does.
How do you foster?
How would you give them up?
I could never do that.
Blah, blah, blah.
So I asked my contact for dogs.
I wouldn't like so, since weare a family of at the time the

(02:55):
kids were 15 and 12, and we area family of big dog people and
so they gave us two littleBoston Terrier nine-week-old
type puppies and we loved them,and so that turns out that that
isn't the trick.
It turns out what we've learned225 puppies in is that we love

(03:15):
them all, but we have learned tohappily say goodbye.
In the beginning I used to cryall the time the night before
just thinking what a betrayalThey've come in here.
They were unsettled on theirway here and they went through
trauma.
Then they got to our house,they got all healed and now
we're going to hand them over.
Now I'm so fine with it,because what happens is three
days later you start to get thephotos from the people and this

(03:36):
puppy is ensconced in theirfamily, looking for all the
world like that's absolutelywhere they're supposed to be.
So it occurs to you ah, youreally are just the way station.
So it's very rewarding work.
We did it to get us through alittle hard, emotional moment,
but as soon as we started doingit we just realized it's
incredibly rewarding, both fromI mean, I think in the beginning

(03:58):
we were in it for the dogs.
We wanted to help these dogswho were in a rough spot.
But after working with allthese families who had then
adopt the dogs, and you see howhappy they get and what it
brings to their lives, and yousee stuff unfolding that you
couldn't have imagined, youstart to do it for the people
too.
The whole thing has becometremendously rewarding and it's
also just an incredibly positivewindow on the world.

(04:20):
You know, when you're raisingkids, it's really nice to have a
little avenue in your veryhousehold to seeing good
happening in the world, and sothat's really what's been
happening for a decade here, andit did lead to me becoming a
dog trainer, but it all didstart with just taking in these
puppies.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Your story is very similar to mine, because that's
how I started fostering and Iwas going to ask you what your
setup looks like your house andyour home area because when you
foster that many your housestarts to take on a different
life.
No, it really does.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
And I think what you're really thinking when you
ask that is your house starts totake on a different smell.
Is that what you're thinking?
But, I promise you it's not true.
I have systems, and so I dofeel like this house is
incredibly well designed forthis very thing.
So we always have our own dogs,two or three adults that are a

(05:12):
giant part of our fostering.
They are incredible.
With the fosters, there's agrounded group that just takes
these dogs and communicates infive minutes no, no, no, it's
good, you're good here.
Something that would have takenme a week.
But my dogs are so good, theyknow what this is and they pull
them in, and I know that that'swhy it's so easy for us to be

(05:35):
successful with this.
But originally, our puppy setupbecause I quickly found that my
sweet spot was the moms, thenursing moms and litters.
I definitely didn't know what Iwas doing when I took the first
one in, but, boy, we loved itso much.
And so we have a rec room.
It's a finished rec room with anice gas fireplace and a big TV

(05:56):
and a door out to the backyard.
So for the first many years thathas been the puppy den, and so
what's lovely is all of that canstay down there, and then, when
it's time to mix everybody up,we can do that as we wish to,
but it isn't just all together,but what's interesting is right
now, as we speak, I have sevenfour-week-olds who were born

(06:18):
here and their mama, and we haveswitched things up and I now
have them in the dining room,and that's because the girls are
gone.
Now the girls are in their 20s,they're not here anymore.
We have more space and I wantthese puppies to have more
exposure to daily life now, andthe more I've learned, of course
, over time, the more importantI know that really is, and it's
just easier for me if we are allon the same level.

(06:39):
So, frankly, these guys wereborn in my dining room, they
still are in my dining room andnow it's time for field trips,
so we go to the family room andtoday we might even go outside
later.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, yeah, and you were just talking about that
back door to the yard.
That's probably the mostimportant asset you can have
when fostering Critical thatopen door to the fenced-in
backyard you could just pop openand then I'll go here 10 or 12
wasters.
You got it.
You got it.
That's really it.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
That's really a quick access to the outdoors is going
to lessen your trauma and thisis partly what I love to talk
about with puppies is that youset yourself up right.
With the right setup,everything is easier, even
having an extra seven dogs inyour house.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
Definitely, definitely.
Now you mentioned, some ofthese puppies are born in your
home and some, I I'm assuming,come in as litters already.
So tell me more about that interms of so in the beginning.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yep, what the process is.
So in the beginning I wasn'tbrave enough yet, and so I would
just take maybe two at a timeor one at a time, and then I
started to learn how to do allthis, and typically so.
I experimented a little bit inthe early years and I would kind
of foster for different groups,but that process is slightly
different with different groups,and so I'm really quite settled

(07:51):
in with Homer Trails AnimalRescue, which is the group that
I like to work with here,because we just know each other
really well.
We know how the system works.
We evaluate the homes, thepotential homes, the same way,
and all that kind of stuff.
I did foster the potentialhomes the same way, and all that
kind of stuff I did foster.
My first litter was actually forour local animal shelter, and
they are wonderful.

(08:11):
Except it's a public shelter andthey have kind of a different
rule about how all this works,and so I could not.
I had to drop the puppies offthere and then they adopted them
out, which was just devastatingfor me.
Instead, I love to have peoplecome to my home, meet the
puppies, we talk about the rightfit, and then there's an
application we talk about andthen we hand them off and I can

(08:32):
look them in the eye and thenI'm also set up to help them
through that transition, becauseI know this puppy really well
and I can help them assesswhat's going on in their home as
that puppy transitions, whereasthe one with the shelter wasn't
able to do that because that'sjust their rule.
But that's when my husbandtalked me off the ledge and was
like you know what you got?
To trust the puppy.
And that is really the truth.

(08:53):
If you do a great job with thatpuppy in your house, take a
deep breath and trust the puppy,because that puppy is going to
wiggle their way in to the heartof that owner and good things
are going to happen.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, and in your book you talk about this concept
or this label of the kidnappedpuppy and it kind of made me
thinking about just what you'retalking about there is helping
them transition.
You know because I talk aboutthat same concept a lot, where
somebody rescues a dog, likefrom a shelter or another
country, and they're flying themback just how foreign that can
be.

(09:27):
So talk more about that andsome of the things you can help
these puppies transition over todifferent environments.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Exactly so.
I think part of the reason thatI can see just how foreign the
new home is for that puppy whenthat puppy's eight weeks old and
he goes into the new owner.
The reason I'm so aware of justhow shocking it is is because
I've just been living with thatpuppy for eight weeks and I know
that 24 seven that puppy hasbeen snuggling with its litter

(09:55):
mates, doing all this doggystuff biting, chewing, jumping,
digging, if they can, within aleap of their mom and all their
litter mates.
Then someone is very excited,someone who's been possibly
planning this for six months.
You know the puppy doesn't knowthis is going to happen.
They come in, they swoop him in, they take him home, pop him in

(10:15):
a crate.
He's alone for the first timehe's ever been alone in his life
and now sometimes that his daysare filled with no's because
people are so worried aboutdoing things the right way and
we can't let the puppy learn allthis bad stuff.
So the puppy has left this warmscrum of his litter mates and

(10:36):
suddenly is in this new worldwhere he's in trouble all the
time.
So I work with people at thebeginning of their puppy journey
and often they come to me andpart of what I want to do with
this new book is put thebeginning of their puppy journey
, and often they come to me andpart of what I want to do with
this new book is put the joyback in puppyhood, because so
often an alarming percentage ofnew puppy owners are miserable
within a few weeks and it justdoesn't have to be that way.

(10:57):
And they call me and they willsay, sometimes in a whisper, I
think this is a mistake.
And they will talk about thepeeing and the chewing and the
biting and everyone's miserableand fighting in their house.
So they'll call me over for aconsult and they will you know
this.
They get out their notebook andtheir pen and they're ready to

(11:18):
write down all the expert tipsand tricks that are going to
it's going to make puppyhoodexactly how it was supposed to
be.
And I do have tips and tricks,but I tell them none of them
will work for you right nowbecause you have to have the
right mindset first.
So I tell them there's only onething I want you to write down
and that is this is a baby Ikidnapped from another planet

(11:43):
and nobody likes to hear thatbecause that sounds super sad.
But the reason I use thatmetaphor is because once you
ponder it, you can't unthink itand if you keep the empathy that
stems from that thought withyou as you deal with that puppy
every day, you're going toautomatically start doing the
right stuff.
And yes, it helps to have allthe official tips and tricks and

(12:05):
approaches and techniques andI've got them in my book and
everybody else has them in theirbook.
But if you don't also carrywith you that empathy, nothing's
going to work right.
And, conversely, if youactually only have that empathy,
you're going to be prettyempowered to make a lot of the
right decisions as you gothrough this.
One of the things that I don'tlove about a lot of the books on

(12:27):
the market is how prescriptiveand directive they are.
You have to do it this way.
This is the only way you haveto do this.
But I mean, after working withall these puppies, you know
purebreds and not purebreds, andall ages and all these families
and all different kinds ofdynamic and different households
.
Guess what it's going to lookdifferent in every household.
Each puppy's an individual.

(12:47):
All these people are differentand I feel like when they
struggle to follow thedirections in somebody's book,
they're going to feeloverwhelmed and like they're
behind the eight ball all thetime and it's not looking like
that in my house.
And what I want to do is have alighter touch on all this and
trust them to think about.

(13:07):
Just step back for a sec.
Why is that puppy crying?
So you know the puppy's cryingin the crate and if you read the
books it says, you know itmight say all these things to do
about that.
You know, maybe you're going toshake the can of pennies to
shut them up.
Maybe you're going to, you know, leave them in there.
You better leave them in there.
If you let them out, you're justgoing to teach them to dominate
you and tell you what to do allday.
And instead, if you just thinkabout oh hang on, he's never

(13:31):
been alone before, what are yougoing to do?
And I don't have a number oneanswer, but I have about five
different answers that you coulddo.
You could bring him in bed withyou.
You could put a carrier in bedwith you.
You could put the crate to theside of your bed.
You could sleep out on thecouch with your puppy in the pen
right next to you.
I mean you could do a milliondifferent things and you have to
do what works for you.
But if you are working from theconcept of empathy and just

(13:56):
wonder, I want you to wonderwhat your puppy is thinking and
feeling, and if you wonderenough, you're going to get to a
good answer.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
That is such an excellent analogy because it
also has me thinking about.
You know, if we're looking atgenetics and epigenetics and
we're looking at dogs that mightbe your puppies that are maybe
more fearful and a person's not,they don't have the right
information.
Maybe that dog is fearful andhaving issues, maybe they're in
their crate, they're screamingand that somebody is attributing
that to something else you know, like dominance, or you know

(14:30):
all these really awful mythsthat can happen.
Is that the treatment that thatpoor puppy is going to get and
how detrimental it can be atthat critical developmental
stage is so, so important totalk about, I think, and so I
love that you use that analogy.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
I think that's right and it's heartbreaking and my
heart.
Here's the thing.
I have a lot of empathy for thehumans going through this and
the puppy going through this andI just feel like they get into
a bad cycle sometimes and itjust doesn't need to be that way
and part of it is, I think, newpuppy owners kind of like a lot
of your aggression owner.
Folks start to panic a littlebit.

(15:05):
Things aren't going quite theway they imagine.
The puppy is peeing everywhereand biting the kids and seems
crazy and all this kind of stuffand they start to panic and
then they go to Dr Google andthey find that they should be
being more authoritative ordoing all this stuff.
Then that poor puppy just getsexactly the opposite of what he

(15:26):
might have needed in that.
So I really feel for the peoplewho panic, thinking things are
going wrong.
The clock is ticking, thingsare going wrong, shoot, I want
this to go right with my puppy.
And then they reach for thewrong tools or the wrong
professionals because they'repanicking and it just doesn't
have to be that way.
It is so often with puppies andtruly I don't care what your

(15:46):
breed is, so really I have hadall these breeds.
Setup is everything.
Setup and anticipation, youknow, if you can.
So there's two things.
So we've got this puppy fromwho's been kidnapped, and so we
need to think about planet dogand we need to think about
planet human right.
So I think about this a littlebit like a third grade boy who's

(16:06):
stuck behind a desk in schooland he hasn't had recess, so
he's struggling to.
He doesn't want to listen tothe teacher because this is
unnatural, to be sitting stillall day.
Send him outside for recess,give him what he needs.
Then he comes back in and inthe afternoon he's a little
better able to listen to whathe's supposed to be absorbing.

(16:27):
And I just want people to thinkabout their life with a puppy
the same way.
So first set up the puppy sosome planet dog needs are being
met.
Has your dog had a chance to bea dog today?
I mean, so many puppies arejust stuck in a crate and taken
outside for a dumb 20-minutewalk where they're not allowed
to sniff and they're pulledalong and then they're stuffed
back in the crate and it's justthey're not getting to be a dog,

(16:51):
and so that shows up in allsorts of bitey behavior and
whining and crying and all sortsof stuff, and if, instead, you
make sure that that puppy getssome canine playtime and gets
plenty of sniffing and maybegets to be outside digging
around a little bit, then youcome in.
So meet those planet dog needsfirst.

(17:13):
Then set up your household sothat the puppy is able to learn
lessons, and what I find is youneed a puppy apartment.
What I find is people tend to gotoo big or too small when they
do a puppy setup.
I think that you need theGoldilocks solution right in the
middle there, because whatpeople tend to do is that they,
I think, before they get thepuppy, they picture they set up

(17:35):
this little pen.
It's a little circle and theylove the idea that the puppy
chaos will be contained to thislittle pen and so that's just
going to be perfect.
Well, they get the puppy andthey put the puppy in the pen
and what does the puppy do?
The puppy is lonely and thepuppy cries all the time and you
humans don't feel like goinginto the pen because it's weird
and small in there.

(17:55):
And when you go in this puppywho has been lonely and has been
taken from his littermates andis bored and isn't getting to
play.
The puppy is too much, is tooaroused, does bite you, does
jump all over you, so it'sunpleasant.
So you leave then the puppy'salone again.
So that situation doesn't workgreat.
The other situation is peopledon't limit the puppy space at

(18:18):
all, which is a total disaster,because then of course you're
peeing all over and you didn't.
I can't tell you how manypeople have told me oh my gosh,
yes, I think he's almost pottytrained.
We haven't had any accidents,and I'm like uh-huh, uh-huh, you
just don't see it.
It's right behind the couch andyou have no idea Anyway.
So what I love is when peoplewill set up basically a room,

(18:41):
get your kitchen, whether it'swherever you want to hang out,
and you're going to have tocommit, you know, for these
months you're going to spend alot of time in this space.
But the thing is you don't wantthe puppy separated from you.
That's a recipe for disaster.
The puppy can't learn how to bewith you in your life the way
you want him if he is separatedin a different pen and you just
pull him out on occasion.

(19:02):
I have a great client right nowwho has she has a new golden
retriever.
It's the first dog they've hadas a family and there's like a
seven-year-old boy, afive-year-old boy and a
one-year-old boy, and so she wasgoing to put the puppy in the
corner in the little, in thelittle pen, and I was like, okay
, that's just not, that's not.
Puppy's going to cry all thetime and the boys aren't going
to be able to get in there.
And she has a beautiful openplan kitchen or open plan whole

(19:26):
house.
So she's like I don't know howelse we'd do it.
I'm like, no, no, no, we can doit.
You would be amazed, theproducts are on the market.
And she was like, well, I don'tknow, definitely hesitating,
didn't want her beautiful houseruined by you know gates and
stuff.
So I showed up at her house.
I was like, look, we're justgoing to, I'll drop them off on
your porch and you can use themor not use them for an hour or

(19:47):
whatever.
And so I showed up and justwalked them into her house and
put them up where I would putthem, which essentially bisected
her whole thing.
And she's charming, I promiseyou we're friends.
But she was like, okay, as soonas it was in operation for 48
hours, she was like, oh, my Lord, this is the answer Because
what that management allows youto do is intentionally interact

(20:12):
with your puppy, and so you'vegot that safety barrier there.
So when the kids come home fromschool and barrel through the
front door, the puppy doesn'tget to run over in that very
exciting moment and jump up onthem and learn all sorts of bad
patterns that we don't want.
Instead, they come in, they cando their own chaos.
Maybe the puppy is behind thatgate, maybe that's exactly when

(20:34):
they get a frozen topple, and sothe kids dump their backpack,
put the stuff away, say hi tomom, change their clothes.
Now we're ready to interactwith the puppy.
Now they go over to the puppyand now the kids who we have
taught to play, find it, andjust a rudimentary, maybe a
little sit.
The kids go up to that gate andstart doing find it, the puppy
sits for them.

(20:54):
Now we've got a controlled kindof pattern, sort of interaction
.
Now that there's been thatmoment of greeting, now they can
go through the gate and thepuppy isn't going to be all over
them.
So setup can make all thedifference.
And now, so they don't havethis chaotic family life even
though they have a one-year-oldand a five-year-old and a
seven-year-old boy, things areactually pretty routine.

(21:15):
And here's the other huge thingabout that kind of setup is that
because that's in their kitchen, when they hang out there all
the time, the puppy is with themall the time.
So what that means is the puppygets used to just hanging, and
so if instead your puppy isbehind a pen, then every time
your puppy sees you it's a giantevent, high arousal jumping

(21:37):
biting all over you.
If instead the puppy's just inthe kitchen and you're often in
the kitchen too and when youfirst come in you do that good
little find it kind of pattern,sort of game thing, then you
walk in, then he's ready, she,he is ready to chill out a
little bit, gets used to lyingon the floor while you're
hanging around.
This is what everyone wants oftheir dog.

(21:57):
Everyone wants their dog to liearound at their feet while
they're just.
They just want them to keepthem company, and if you don't
set it up right, they can'tpractice that behavior of calmly
lying around, where you canthen reward them for that, so
you can be sitting around.
Kids are doing the homework atthe table.
The puppy starts to get youinteract with them a little bit
and then you stop.
You do homework, puppy liesdown.

(22:18):
That's when you say, oh, goodjob, good job.
It just sets you up for successif you just do that rudimentary
little set up thing.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yes, I love that because it's also providing the
opportunities to givereinforcement to that puppy, you
know, because it's what happensa lot and not a lot.
But I've seen this in so manyof my cases where the puppy is
contained to the bedroom, let'shave the crate in the bedroom
and that's where the puppy'sgoing to stay all day and they
get let out to, like you werementioning, and just that very
limited schedule.
So it's very restrictive.

(22:48):
You know, and it also had methinking too, as you had
mentioned, like with your clientor your friend, you know, is
there's a market for reallydesigner decorative gates and
exercise sets, cause peopledon't want that black wire style
or like the wood.
Like you know, you go toWalmart and get a baby gate.
They should be like a designercompany because, trust me,
people will buy that, becausethat's the one pushback you get.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
But there is.
There is I mean, front gate hasamazing stuff.
I mean you can get beautifulstuff.
It's going to cost you, but youcan get beautiful stuff that
you do not hate and also there'ssuch a variety.
I think this is one of thethings that the service that we
can provide with people ispushing them through that
initial resistance, because,yeah, they're like, I don't want

(23:29):
my house to be ugly and, firstof all, it doesn't have to be
ugly forever.
It's just going to be a shorttime during puppyhood and it's
going to make you, it's going tolessen the stress in your
household.
So much those gates.
But there are great.
I have every kind of gate.
I have pressure treated gatesthat sit in doorways.
I've got a bunch of the kindthat you just lift up and move

(23:52):
around.
They're like an accordion fold.
Those things are great forpuppies because puppies can't
quite knock them down yet.
But allows you to do field tripsLike.
What I like people to do istreat the rest of the house as a
field trip opportunity.
So I do want them bringingtheir puppies all around the
house to get used to the rest ofthe house.
That's the beginning of makingpotty training a little more
solid.
Is that you first have to teachthem.
Well, we also live in this room.
We also live in this room.

(24:12):
But you got to time thosevisits and they happen right
after they peed outside and thenyou do a field trip and you're
going to go over to the diningroom or the family room.
But what makes that work is ifyou've got a little portable
gate and you can settle.
So now we're going to set onthis room for a little while and
that little gate, if you canmove, it allows you to do that.
So these little little thingslike having the right little

(24:34):
gate in your house, oh my gosh,can make you.
Your head doesn't have to spinlike oh, where's he going now
Shoot.
He ran down the hallway and thenhe peed.
You know Equipment.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, equipment and the pushback we get as trainers,
sometimes the same thing with,like muzzles people have.
You know, when you use astandard black, you know rubber
metal muzzle it can look ominousbut you know it.
Gates, I think, have the same,not the ominous effect, but
people just don't like the.
You know the look of it.
So even if you can't buy itlike if you, if you don't have

(25:04):
the money to go get all theseexpensive, just get one, that's,
you can paint yourselfNon-toxic paint, but you know
something you can get decorative, just like I suggest with
muzzles.
Go out and get the cheap ducttape at.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Job Lot.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
And you can make a muzzle look really awesome with
just colors and you know it'samazing.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Do what you need to so that you will do the right
thing for your dog.
So if painting the thing doesit for you, absolutely go do
that have the kids paint it,there you go.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, no, just do it.
Yeah, make it fun.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
And just understand this too shall pass Like.
This is not the whole gatesituation.
This dramatic managementsituation doesn't have to be
forever.
Your house will get back to itsprevious glory at some point.
But to lessen the stress inyour household that can come
with puppyhood, just accept itin the beginning.
This is a transitory phase.
It's going to be gone beforeyou know it and you're going to
miss it.
And so roll up the carpets, putin the gates, be ready to

(25:55):
manage, and then you canactually feel joyful about
puppyhood because you've put abunch of yeses in front of your
dog.
Kathy Sadeo talks about being achoice architect for your dog,
and that just means you knowdesign the situation so that the
likelihood that your dog isgoing to do a thing you can then
reward is very high.
So if you do get those gates,get it all set up, guess what?

(26:18):
Your puppy's going to chew onthe bone instead of chewing on
your carpet or the book that'son the table or whatever.
Because you set it up right andyou know so many people will
come to me in the beginning ofpuppyhood because they want me
to teach their dog the meaningof the word no, and they are
very disappointed when I'm like,wow, you know what?
I actually never say.
No, I really don't.

(26:38):
I set things up for a yes, andthis is the biggest thing people
can learn with puppies is it'sall about you anticipating, so
that's your job.
Take those extra five minutesbefore you do a thing and think
about okay, wait, how's thepuppy probably gonna react to
this?
How can I set it up?
Do I need to have something inthe freezer?
Do I have to have a top already?

(26:59):
Do I have to just when peoplecome in the door?
Do I have to be putting behindthe gate just for that?
Do I need to be telling mydaughter to take off that little
fun ballet tutu that isscreaming to be grabbed?
I mean, think ahead.
This is the thing, you know.
Some things are really simple.
As I'll walk in, I'll be likeoh well, yeah, she can't wear
dresses right now Because thatdress as she's running through

(27:22):
the room, that dress is a danglytoy.
That is asking.
And if she just had jeans on,that's not going to be happening
is a dangly toy.
That is asking.
And if she just had Jean done,that's not going to be happening
.
Obviously, we want to worktoward the puppy.
Understanding that the kid hasaccess to the ceramic jar that
has the kibble in it and thatthat's the fastest way to get
engagement is that the kid'sgoing to run over there and then
start playing find it and pingpong, and you got to teach that.

(27:45):
But first is management, whichmeans don't wear the jagged
dress.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, that's the statement of how do you know
somebody's fostered over 200puppies without knowing they
fostered over 200 puppies?
That's just you know throughexperience, speaking to her.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
No, it's so true, there is so much stuff that I'll
walk into a house and I'm like,and I'll just be like okay, we
just need to do these 10 thingsand you're going to be totally
fine, you know, but it's just,it's too much.
I remember it reminds me of Iwent to college in New Hampshire
and everyone else was anamazing skier and I had gone on
like three stupid church skitrips in the Poconos and so when

(28:20):
I would try to ski with them,they would be helpfully telling
me all these things.
You know what I'm supposed tobe doing with my head and my
shoulders and my, my poles andall stuff.
And it was just too much stuff.
It was just too much for me toabsorb.
But they, having been throughall that experience, saw
immediately oh wait, wait, wait.
Here's your problem and that ispuppyhood.

(28:42):
There is so much stuff toabsorb that way that can make it
a whole bunch easier.
And it is a lot to take in atfirst.
And I would love it if peoplecould, you know, take that in in
a way that doesn't feel superstressful and understand that
it's going to be okay.
It's going to be okay.
Here's the basic stuff we'regoing to do to set you up.
Okay, you're going to bemeeting planet dog needs and
you're going to be teachinghuman ways and we're going to

(29:04):
slowly move along together.
But the number one thing istrust.
You just pull this puppy in,this little kidnapped baby.
You need to develop trust withthis pup so this pup knows that
you're his guide here and thenyou're going to be okay.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Amazing.
Now I want to talk more aboutthe word trust and all the
things we should be doing, butfirst we're going to hear a word
from our sponsors and we'll beright back.
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All right, we're back here withKathy Callahan.
We've been chatting puppies andnow we're going to get into

(31:46):
some of the things we should bedoing and continue on, and Kathy
already gave us a bunch ofgreat suggestions, and I want to
talk more about the socialaspects and avoiding the
behavior problems we often seein so many of our cases.
But first let's talk a littlehistory here, because we've, as
trainers and especially thetrainers listening into the show
right now probably have,especially if we've been around

(32:08):
a long time have heard all kindsof different suggestions, and
so let's talk about kind of theevolution of things.
We, of course, see a lot of badstuff out there on Dr Google,
but what are some things thatare still kind of pervasive,
that you find maybe aren't asnecessary anymore or could be
even harmful?
Let me give us some of thehistory on that.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yep, oh, it's so hard , because I do think people are
trying their best when they runthese classes, and sometimes,
though, circumstances are suchthat what they are doing is not
helping the puppies and ishurting them a little bit.
I can go way back, though, andtell you about my first, when I
was 12 and I got my first puppy.
Of course, I begged for thispuppy, and, as part of the deal,

(32:47):
it was my job to take the dogto training class, and I was so
excited.
I was excited to have this dog,excited to go to class, and I
went in there and there was thisbig man who basically tossed a
choke chain on the dog and thentold me to push down on his butt
to get him to sit, and thenstand on the leash to force him

(33:08):
down into a down, and then, whenwe were doing recall, I was
supposed to bellow and make myvoice scarier and stuff.
I was only 12, but I'm justlooking at my puppy.
He's not enjoying this, it'sscary.
He doesn't trust me anymore.
He's like what happened to you?
Oh, and the other thing was wewere getting graded.

(33:28):
Of course, we had to learn sitdown, stay, come, heal, and it
was very important that we learnthese five things and that was
going to mean we were going tosucceed as owners.
And I just remember the stressI felt during that class and I
do think that that still happenssometimes is people go to class
and they have this idea thatthey're going to okay, now the

(33:49):
puppy's going to get trained.
And they go to class andthere's this big emphasis on
learning these cues, you know,the sit down, stay, come, touch,
whatever and that if you don'tlearn them perfectly, you guys
are terrible together and you'redoomed, you know, and there's
just a lot of stress with that.
So flash forward to now like anideal class.

(34:09):
Now I just feel like, yeah, Isure do teach sit, touch,
downspin, all that kind of stuffI do, but I teach it.
It's a fun bonding.
But the whole point of that forme with puppies is developing
that joint language that youhave to use to get through your
day and I want to teach thatstuff to make the puppy's life
easier here.

(34:29):
Of course it makes my lifeeasier as well if he's going to
listen when I say sit, but it'salso opening up that door to the
puppy to have him understand.
Oh wait, my behavior changesthings.
I can actually get good stuff,the stuff that I want, by
behaving in a certain way, andthat's what was missing from
that long ago training classwhere it was kind of all get

(34:52):
with the programmer else.
Now I want the training to openthat door for the puppy where
he's like, oh, hang on, thiswhole thing of listening to
words from my human, that's whatworks here on this planet, and
I'm going to start doing thatjust this morning.
So I've got these puppies whoare on Thursday they'll be five
weeks old, so they're in a pen.
They're in the pen when theysleep and stuff, but now it's

(35:14):
time for adventure.
So they do get to go to thenext room when they wake up.
So this morning I went to theedge of the pen and it was time
to take them out to their funadventure, land in the next room
and I wait for the sitting.
And so here's the thing thenormal dog thing to do is
jumping, jumping, jumping,biting, biting, jumping, jumping

(35:35):
.
And if I didn't do the thingthat I recommend to my clients,
which is think about what'sgoing to happen when I go to the
edge of the pen, they're goingto jump and try to get out.
So I have to have a plan forthat.
What am I going to do?
I'm going to grab the one whois jumping at me?
Nope, so I sit there and I wait.
Again, I'm not directive.
I wait for them to figure itout.
So somebody sits and makes eyecontact.

(35:56):
That's the one that gets theone, two, three wee.
Here we go into the other room,and so what will happen if I
talk to you a week from today?
What will be happening by thenis that all seven puppies the
second I come to the edge ofthat pen will be sitting because
they've learned the criticallesson that their behavior.

(36:16):
There's some stuff that isprized in this human world and
they can learn it and then theycan get the good stuff.
So I mean that to me, that'swhat I want training to feel
like.
I want a class to feel liketeaching them that their
behaviors can open doors forthem and make their life great
and consequently, obviously, itmakes it great for the humans as

(36:38):
well.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah, and you mentioned something else in your
book too, about the feeling ofsafety or making sure there's
this safety aspect beforeactually doing any training.
So talk more about that.
But also, let's get back to thehistory a little bit, because
there's some things that maystill be done in puppy classes,
like pass the puppy.
So if we're focusing on social,like the socialization aspects

(37:01):
we hear about socialization overand over and over with puppies
and we try to do some things inthe name of socialization, that
actually could be problematic,which ties into the whole rule
of making sure the puppy feelssafer.
So talk us through that.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Absolutely right, so truly the number one thing, and
this is something that is justnot taught at all, and it's
crazy that this is an omission.
But think about your kidnappedbaby.
What do they need to feel Safe?
What are they doing here?
They're mystified.
What's happening here?
They don't know anything.
The most critical thing for youto establish is that you are

(37:37):
that puppy's rock, or, as KimBrophy says, they can hang their
hat on you.
But when I use that phrase, mykids who are in their 20s are
like what does that mean?

Speaker 1 (37:45):
So I tend to not use Kim's phrase, even though Kim is
totally right.
We're all aging ourselves now,so anyway.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Sorry, kim, I know.
So it is about trust, though,the number one thing and this is
if you gain your puppy's trustand your puppy feels confident
near you, because just rememberhow unsettled your puppy is.
This is the thing People don'tthink about, that People are so
in their own heads when they geta puppy that all they're
thinking is, oh my gosh, my lifehas been turned upside down,

(38:14):
and they feel kind of irritatedand they're like this crazy
puppy, blah, blah, blah.
Well, nope, sit back for a sec.
Use your empathy.
Think about how confused thatpuppy is.
That puppy needs to feel OK.
Confuse that puppy is, thatpuppy needs to feel okay.
So that means you need to teachsafety.
So how do you teach safety?
And it's felt safety.

(38:34):
So this is.
You know the ethologists willtalk about the important.
You know Patricia McConnell andKim Brophy will talk about how
important felt safety is versusactual safety.
Of course, we know our puppy issafe, but our puppy does not.
And a critical thing for allanimals ask any ethologist is
the feeling of safety.
It's like the number one thing.
Everything else comes afterthat, even food and water and
stuff.
Felt safety is number one.

(38:55):
So you need to work hard atthat, even though you don't
think you have to and no one hastold you that that is the
number one thing you have tothink about.
So how do you do that?
And that it's kind of atwo-pronged thing.
The first is body language.
You need to know how to readyour puppy.
How's your puppy feeling?
You don't know.
You have to pay attention tothat, to know how to keep your

(39:16):
puppy feeling safe.
Because if you don't even knowenough to look about whether
your puppy feels okay, then youcan't do this very well.
So study up on body language,figure out what that means.
It's not brain surgery.
It does take.
Obviously you get much, much,much, much better at it as time
goes on.
But basically, is your puppyleaning into this experience or
shrinking away?
Pay attention, respect that.

(39:38):
And that also means stoppingwith all the manhandling.
You know we have a tendency toswooping.
Pick up the puppy, dangle himin the air, look him in the eyes
he's so cute.
Hand him off to the other kidand then the other kid and pull
him along.
He's not walking on the leash.
Why isn't he walking?
Come on, all dogs like a walk.
We pull him off.
We do a lot of manhandling andthat does not build your

(40:01):
relationship.
So you need to slow your roll.
You need to stop.
Sure, eventually your puppy'sgoing to want to be in your lap
and is going to want to be heldby you, but right now you're
just a weird stranger.
So sit down on the floor.
Learn how to entice your puppy,learn how to use toys, learn
how to play.
This is the other thing thatlike play, get down, be goofy,

(40:21):
act like a puppy.
You will see another side ofyour puppy emerge, the second
you do that.
So that's one way to do.
Safety is body language andpaying attention and respecting
their autonomy.
And the other part is beingconsistent and having patterns
and stuff.
Have a routine.
Have the puppy understand howit's going to be when you come
toward them.
What's it going to be like whenyou feed them, what door do we

(40:43):
go out?
Make routines throughout yourday.
Have lots of patterns.
Leslie McDevitt obviously hasall those pattern games that I
just live by.
That stuff is great forbuilding confidence.
Patterns we're all wired to allanimals.
Again, this is ethology.
All animals are wired to learnby patterns because it's the
most efficient way to go throughyour life.
So if puppies can watch what'shappening, understand oh wait, I

(41:06):
know what happens now when theysit by the TV.
That means I get to go sit onthe floor here.
Phew, okay, this is predictableLessens their stress
dramatically if they know whatit's going to be.
If you're having guests comeover, if you have them all
automatically go sit on thisbench first and that they don't
come over to the puppy, thenyour puppy can start feeling

(41:27):
terrific about having guestsover, because they're like I
know how this goes.
They go and they sit on thatbench and then I come over to
them and then, if I want to, Ican get a treat.
Like you have to set things upso that they can begin
predicting this perplexing worldfor them.
So that's the biggest part ofsafety, predictability and
consistency, and of course, thatalso means that you aren't

(41:50):
freaking out.
So then this is difficult and Ido have empathy for the owners
as well, but, like, if you'regoing to be your puppy's rock,
you need to think things throughso that things go well from
your point of view and youaren't erupting with oh no, oh,
don't go over there.
Because every time you're doingthat kind of response to the
chewed shoe which was your faultor the pee on the ground which

(42:12):
was your fault, and I'm sorry.
I don't mean I am empatheticabout it, but it is our fault,
like as a human, it is our fault.
Of course they don't know howto do that.
Of course a shoe is whatthey're going to chew, I mean.
So if you let yourself eruptand be scary to your puppy, you
have just taken yourrelationship back.
And it does matter, felt,safety matters.

(42:33):
You have to be your puppy'srock so that your puppy, once
you establish that you can doanything.
But once your puppy trulytrusts you, boy, is everything
else easy to teach.
So back to the puppy lessons.
So puppy classes tend to nottalk about that at all.
And a lot of puppy classes andI know it's hard, you know, if

(42:53):
you're trying to have a businessand you're trying to have a
group class and people sign up,it's difficult to do this right
because some puppies will comeinto that class and think it's
super fun and other puppies willbe terrified.
And you know, old fashionedpuppy classes didn't even bother
with worrying about how thepuppy's feeling about that and

(43:13):
one of the things that we usedto do in the name of
socialization.
So many terrible things happenin the name of socialization.
So it was thought that it's agood idea to get your puppy
exposed to different people, andso you'd sit around in a circle
and play, pass the puppy.
So you take your puppy and youpass it to the person next to
you who holds on with an irongrip, and then passes it to the

(43:34):
next stranger who holds it onwith an iron grip and pass it
around, and it's just all ofthat again is no agency for your
puppy.
Your puppy isn't making any ofthose choices, and so
socialization to work has tofeel positive for your puppy,
and there's just this terriblething that has happened where
people have become aware thatsocialization is important.

(43:55):
There is a bunch of science nowthat does show that there is
that critical, sensitive period.
Yo, is it 12 weeks?
Is it 16 weeks?
We don't know.
Does it vary by breed?
We don't know.
But there certainly is enoughresearch that shows it's worth
it to think about exposing yourpuppy to novelty in that time,

(44:16):
and so that is important.
You want to teach your puppy?
Hey, the world's filled withall sorts of stuff, but guess
what it mostly turns out.
Okay, that is what you want toteach your puppy, but
unfortunately, what people havelearned because it's complicated
is it's really important.
Here's the checklist.
Here are all the things yourpuppy has to see.
You have to do 100 people in100 days and you have to make
sure that you see a car and abus and a truck and a scooter.

(44:36):
And so what happens is peoplewill be efficient and take their
puppy to the parade, which isjust a disaster.
Because what happens is it'snot just about exposure, it is
about how the puppy is feelingabout that thing.
And so what you want to do is,yes, offer exposure, but again,

(44:56):
you're looking at body language,the distance has to be right,
the intensity has to be right,and then you're paying attention
.
Is your puppy leaning in?
Did your puppy startle andrecover?
So if you're taking your puppyon a walk and you deliberately
pick a time where you're goingto see some stuff, you don't
want to pick for that puppy'sfirst walk 3 pm, when school

(45:16):
just let out and all the kidsare coming home and they're all
going to swarm him and some aregoing to be on bikes and
scooters and it's not true that.
Oh great, now he's going to beokay with bikes and scooters and
kids.
Quite likely he is now notgoing to be okay with bikes and
scooters and kids.
Instead, you pick 10 am, wherethe preschooler next door is not
in school, and then you get alittle scooter out and you keep

(45:38):
it far enough away that yourpuppy then takes a look, is
interested and then maybeindicates that he's interested
in walking over Great, walk onover and you can pair a treat
with his choice to walk over.
You are not going to lure himover with a treat.
This is another thing thathappens and it's so
well-intentioned and my heartbreaks for owners who feel the

(46:01):
ticking clock of socializationand then just kind of have it
half right.
And this is why I really wanttrainers to jump in.
The thing that trainers shouldoffer is the first walk.
Trainers should get up andrunning on how to do this right
and help model for owners how todo that first walk.

(46:21):
So go down your street.
How's your puppy doing?
Let the puppy sniff, sniff,sniff, sniff, sniff.
Then you be fun and you Getyour puppy coming towards you.
But with your little danceysteps and your little voice and
fun little treats on the ground,find it, find it, find it that
keeps you going forward and thena car's coming, so you make

(46:42):
sure that you're not where thecar's going to whoosh right by.
Instead, maybe walk into thelawn about five feet, 10 feet,
put your body between the puppyand the car and then use the Mr
Rogers hack.
Use Kim Burfrey's Mr Rogershack.
Oh, I see a car coming.
I see a car coming.
Meanwhile you're shielding alittle bit, but you're allowing
that puppy to gather data.

(47:03):
This is what I think is wrongwith a lot of the socialization
approaches, is people feel likethere has to be all this
interaction.
No, observation is fantastic.
Let your puppy gather data.
Remember, they don't read, theydon't watch TV, they don't know
anything, and so you need toput them in a position where
they can see the world.
But it just has to be right atthe right spot and you have to

(47:25):
do what you can to make theintensity level of that
experience just fine for thatpuppy.
And I know, as I'm talking, it'ssounding really complicated and
I hate that it's soundingcomplicated, but it's really not
.
Dial it back to empathy.
Dial it back to your kidnappedpuppy.
How would you feel if you werethat puppy?
Make it simpler, make it notquite as scary, not as loud, not

(47:47):
as close, not as overwhelming,and then watch the puppy's body
language.
Was he fine?
Maybe he's fine, and the peoplewith golden retrievers are
probably listening to me likewhat is wrong with her?
Because, you know, some puppiesare just ready to roll with
everything and others are not,and, of course, even in a litter
you will see a giant variationsometimes with that kind of

(48:08):
stuff.
And so just stay with the puppywho's right in front of you and
introduce new things right attheir level.
And the other thing is that'ssuper easy.
You know, this is what I leaninto with families who are
feeling really overwhelmed bythe idea of this.
You know, put on a hat in yourhouse, put on a backpack, walk
through the room, carry a duffelbag that's filled with

(48:29):
something, drop a book, playdifferent music, do some jumping
jacks and all of this, by theway, without terrifying your
puppy.
It's great if you have twopeople there to do that, so one
is sitting with the puppygauging how they're doing with
this and the other person isjust kind of introducing these
new things.
It doesn't have to be that bigof a deal and it can be three
minutes, but it's going to makea powerful impact on your

(48:53):
puppy's ability to roll with itlater when they see new stuff,
because you have built theability of that puppy to see
something new, hear somethingnew, smell something new and
think well, it's another one ofthose new things.
It always turns out okay andalso, maybe mom has a treat for
me now.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
And again you want to follow up.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
You don't want to lure your puppy into the scary
thing Like this is somethingthat people often do is they're
like well, he's supposed to meetmen, but he's a little nervous
about men.
So then they put, you know, hamon the man's knee.
No, because then you're settingup your puppies in conflict now
because your puppy reallydoesn't want to go over there
but they really do want the ham,so they're in conflict.

(49:30):
The result of that interactioncan be them feeling even more
disturbed by the side of a man,because that was an unpleasant
kind of situation.
Instead, hang out and chat withthe guy.
Keep him five feet from you,keep the puppy on the other side
.
You're running interference.
Puppy can listen to yourconversation and ideally after a
few minutes, decide you knowwhat?
I want to go smell that guy.
And then he smells the guy.

(49:51):
Then you toss the ham rightbehind the dog, your puppy.
So that's the retreat thingTreat, retreat.
Puppy gets to go the other wayand get the ham.
Guess what?
Now he's going to choose to goback to the guy without having
felt conflict and stress.
So another thing about theclasses, though.
I think you want to just talkabout the things we do wrong.
So one of the things is puppyplay.

(50:13):
So puppy play is actually mything.
I love puppy play, but boy isit hard to get right.
And this is why I'm concernedwhen generic puppy classes offer
puppy play, because often itjust doesn't go well and it ends
up making puppies more scaredof other dogs instead of feeling
more confident.
So five years ago, when mypuppy foster families kept

(50:37):
saying I was like you know, whenthey're climbing they're like
oh, so mouthy, he's so mouthy,he's just, oh, he's all over us.
I'm like you need a puppyfriend Like he.
That's a really normal behaviorand he needs an appropriate
legal channel to do that kind ofplay.
Your life is going to be somuch easier if you just give
them that outlet.
Find a puppy on your street andI'll come over and we'll get it
going.
And it was just too hard.

(50:58):
It was too hard.
People are so busy and it wastoo hard for them to find that
friend.
So finally I was exasperatedand I started Puppy Pals, which
is play and learn socializationin my own yard.

(51:18):
I used to teach preschool.
I taught the twos in preschooland that was Tuesdays, thursdays
, nine to 12.
This is basically the samething, only it's puppies.
So I take puppies.
I know well these are myclients.
I match them up and I'm lucky Ilive in a very populated area
so this is pretty easy to do.
So I always have maybe 12 to 15on my list and I send out a
note on Sunday.
I look at the weather.
I'm like, okay, we're going todo Tuesday and Thursday this
week.
It's nine to 12.
Who's interested?
Then I get a list back of who'sinterested which day.

(51:39):
And here's the key part I pickwho comes, I look and I decide
who's going to work that day andI don't have to fill all those
spots.
Here's the thing.
This is not my moneymaker, thisis my.
I want this.
This has to work well for them.
It's so important.
So there will be days that Ionly have three because I didn't
have the right group to makesix.

(52:00):
But what happens over time iswhen I do that right, then I'm
quickly up to six because theyhave the skills.
So they build the skills withactual friends.
And this is what is huge.
You know, when you do thesepuppy classes, you sign up and
you go on the Saturday and yougo for an hour.
Again, this is like a, it's aam exhausted afterward, like

(52:21):
this is, and I have the help ofmy older dogs, who are amazing
too, and so, and my yard is setup, I've got two sides so they

(52:43):
can say hi through the fence, sowe can do slow, appropriate
greetings.
I watch that body language thewhole time.
I only have one new one everytime.
So I've got some regulars whoknow the drill.
Then the newbie can come in andsize things up for a little
while, maybe come in.
Then, when they come in,there's a lot of distraction,
there's a lot of you know,things are getting a little,

(53:04):
maybe off kilter.
Somebody's a little concerned.
We're calling, coming in andaway, we're running across, we
are sitting for treats and thenwe're doing a big perimeter walk
, we're sniffing, sniffing,sniffing, sniffing.
So anyway, that stuff is magic.
I wish every single trainer whocould would offer this, because

(53:24):
I can't even tell you the tearyconversations I have with people
afterward because they're likeoh my God, this has changed
everything.
They end up wanting two times aweek and they want to, they
want it to continue forever.
But it can't, because it'sreally only appropriate.
I kick them out at about sixmonths or so, but it creates.
What the feedback I get fromeveryone is that it creates dogs
who are extraordinarily solidwith other dogs because they

(53:47):
develop.
They learn how to play with thechasers and the wrestlers and
they learn how to play with thepointy ears and the floppy ears
and they just become comfortablewith a whole lot of different
kinds of dogs and how they playand they stop overreacting.
And this is the thing.
When they first come in, youwill see that they get nervous
real quick.
You know somebody rushes up tothem and they're going to react

(54:10):
in kind of a panicky.
It's going to look aggressive.
You know some people are like,oh what?
I had some terrible dog, youknow, and obviously that was my
fault.
I should have seen that comingright that second before.
So I'm going to fend off thatmoment and fix that and then
we're going to go and we'regoing to have a great time.
We're going to build thatrelationship.
Stick with it.
And 90 minutes later those twoare playing so beautifully and

(54:31):
they become best friends.
But you have to stick with it.
Anyway, oh, at the Dogs in theCity conference, when Laura
Donaldson got up and whoobviously is amazing, and she
got up and she's like well, I'mnot a fan of puppy play and I
was like shoot because that's abig part of what I do.
But I agree with her.
I agree with her that it'stricky.
I still want everyone to seekit out and I want trainers to

(54:53):
try to offer it and try to offerit in whatever way you can Like
.
If you don't have the propertyfor it, can you get your current
clients to get together and canyou offer a supervised puppy
play session where you aregetting in the middle and
ideally that can become routine,because the magic is when they
know each other and theirfriends and again, it's
predictability that buildssafety.

(55:14):
So this is a predictableexperience.
They know what it's going to belike, they know these people,
they know the setup.
It's going to make them moregenerous of spirit because they
don't feel nervous Like you cansee dogs who feel more confident
because they've been hereshaking stuff off, just
everything's fine with them,whereas on their first day if
someone had leapt on them thatway they might've freaked out.

(55:35):
Now they view it as playbecause they understand and they
also just feel solid here.
Anyway, that kind of puppy play, if you can seek it out and
find it, do everything in yourpower and if you are a trainer,
try to offer that.
I think a lot of trainers areafraid of puppy play.
It seems too hard but if youcan get it going it ends up
being a lifesaver for thosepeople.
And again, what I want to do isempower people out of needing me

(55:57):
.
So my winter people I don'toffer it over the winter because
I don't have the right weatherfor it, but I've developed a
text group between all myclients who I've had private
consults with.
They are now best friends.
I can't even tell you how busythat text group is.
They did not know each otherbefore but I pulled them
together and we shared puppystories.
We have done little gettogethers.

(56:18):
You know I've supervised thesetwo here and those three there.
Now they are fully able toschedule their own dates with
each other at their own houses,without me.
They will send me a video andbe like wait, this looks weird,
is this okay?
But that's my vision, for Ijust want people doing that.
I want to get them started sothey know how to do it, because
they're much happier puppypeople when they have dogs who

(56:40):
have scratched that again, thatplanet dog.
It's recess for the third gradeboy.
You give them a play date likethat and they're going to come
home and they are actually goingto be ready to learn from you
appropriately and to payattention to your little
training sessions and stuff.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
I love all of this because it's just, you know,
because you're talking aboutcommunity too.
You're talking about, you know,bringing the community together
and that's that also allows youto have this pool of resources
for these puppies.
And kind of on that note, Iwanted to ask you about, you
know, you mentioned your workwith people, your former career,
you know, and what do you do?
This is kind of a two partquestion.
So there's, you know, thepeople that are probably
listening even maybe somebody'slistening to the show right now

(57:20):
and has a puppy and they're like, okay, this sounds great.
But you know, we've avoidedthroughout the whole show,
actually any kind ofprescriptive like do this, do X,
y and Z for all puppies?
It's actually so unique to thepuppy.
So how do you like, when youhave somebody that's like I
don't know what to do, am Idoing too much, am I doing too
little?
So that's kind of question one,somebody that's overwhelmed
with all of this.

(57:41):
And then they also get thisadditional we have these
additional buzzwords and kind ofgive us your thoughts, building
resiliency, or stress,inoculation, right, which are
useful concepts absolutely.
However, how does somebody knowwhen to kind of push or pull
back, or yes, they're looking atbody language, but they're not
an expert.
It's their first puppy.

(58:01):
They're overwhelmed, you know.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
So talk us through that.
I think that's a great question.
So, again, just like everypuppy is an individual, the
people are individual too, and Ithink one of the things that
surprises you when you become adog professional like this and
you go into people's homes ishow much you are.
It's kind of you're functioningas a counselor or a therapist,
which I think maybe takes somepeople aback, and I have found

(58:24):
out that I actually just lovethis because it gives you the
ability to make people happierin their day within their house.
How amazing is that?
How rare is that that you getthe ability to actually make
people feel less stress everyday?
So that's just one of thosethings that you suss out while
you're in there.
First of all, I think you canmodel.

(58:45):
I think it helps a lot whenthey say I'm not sure how's this
puppy doing?
Is this too much?
You can so quickly go in and belike oh no, look, see, he's
fine.
Look at this.
Do you see how wiggly his bodyis?
See how he's moving toward me?
Or the opposite.
You can say see, you're tryingto do that.
Do you see how he's actuallyjust ducking away a little bit
and he's coming to me instead ofyou when you do that.

(59:06):
That's just something to watch.
So I think, sitting there andmodeling with them and
articulating every little thingyou're seeing, I think it helps
a lot to say not see how happyhe is.
You have to say look at histail, look at his feet, look at
where he's leaning, look atwhere his eyes are going and
help them think about things tolook for.

(59:27):
In terms of being prescriptive,I think one of the simplest
things I love to teach everybodyto do is just ping pong Leslie
McDevitt's ping pong.
So if I feel I'm with someonewho's kind of on the edge and
isn't feeling okay, the simplestthing to start with is find it.
And you have some treats andyou're tossing a treat on the
ground and you're saying find it.

(59:47):
And then eventually that candevelop into ping pong, which is
something you can play.
If you are overstressed andyou're working too hard and you
just don't have it in you to dothe right thing, you can still
sit on your couch and play pingpong and it's going to build
your relationship and build yourconfidence with this dog.
So that just means you'resaying find it and you're
throwing it to the right.
Your puppy's running over there,grabbing that Puppy, swings his

(01:00:09):
head around, looks back at youlike what was that?
And you say, yes, the second hemeets your eyes you throw
another one to the other side.
They run after it.
They grab it, look back at you.
What is happening?
Yes, as soon as they come inthe middle and meet your eyes.
So the puppy's getting exercise, the puppy's getting rewarded
for returning to you andfocusing on you.

(01:00:30):
You have the opportunity rightin the middle there to start
turning that into not eyecontact but sit or down or spin.
And then suddenly you realizeyou're training your dog while
you're sitting your butt on thecouch and watching TV and it's
actually feeling really easy.
Anyway, I like to start withthat.
That works for little kids,that works for husbands who
didn't want the dog, that worksfor everybody.
And it ends up the week afteryou teach them ping pong

(01:00:56):
everybody.
And it ends up the week afteryou teach them ping pong.
They feel much better aboutwhat's happening in their home.
It's like the gateway totraining is that simple little
game that feels like a game, butit's actually teaching safety,
predictability, connection,bonding and the beginnings of
what people think of as training, which is the sit and stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
And then building on that so they like get this
foundational work.
They're feeling better, butthey still feel overwhelmed.
They're still going back to DrGoogle, right, and they're still
getting all this information.
They don't know what to do.
They're like okay, I don't havea Kathy in front of me, I'm not
in her area and I don't haveany puppy specialists, but I am
listening, feeling overwhelmed.

(01:01:33):
What's your take-home messagefor them?

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
So the take-home message is to stick with it Like
.
This is puppyhood and it's ajourney, and I think what's
happening?
If you're feeling overwhelmed?
I think it's because you haveinappropriate messages swirling
around in your head about a lotof shoulds.
I think there are a lot ofshoulds happening.
I think that you're maybeworried about.

(01:01:56):
You know, this time you weregoing to do it perfectly,
whatever that means.
You know, if you take a look atall the puppy books on the
market, you're 10 steps to yourperfect dog, perfect puppyhood.
Stop it, stop it.
The word perfect has nothing todo with dogs and particularly
not with puppies.
These are babies.
You don't expect your kid to beperfect.
This is a journey and you'regonna be happier if you enjoy

(01:02:19):
the journey.
And so you know, think about it, about yourself, to give
yourself a break.
This is a learning, this is aninterspecies relationship is an
incredible thing to get to have.
And so if you're feelingoverwhelmed, I think it's
because you have messages inyour head about what you wanted
it to look like.
It was supposed to look exactlylike this.
You're going to be so muchhappier if you open yourself up

(01:02:42):
to huh, what's this going to be?
And start with where the dog is.
Pull yourself in there and youwill find new ways to be with
each other and you're not goingto be quite as overwhelmed.
But you've got to let go of theshoulds.
You know the neighbor.
You know Uncle Bob atThanksgiving and your neighbor
up the street who's like youknow what worked for me?
Or gosh, that's a lot ofjumping.

(01:03:04):
Just find something to say tothose people, whether it's you
know, we're good, we're learning, we're just.
You know he's just a puppy.
Check back in in a year, likefind a way to get rid of those
voices in your heads, because Ihave a feeling that if you
settle down and listen toyourself and listen to your
puppy, you're not gonna feelthat same amount of overwhelm.

(01:03:24):
You'll still have moments whereyou're like that didn't go well
, but if you start with who thispuppy is and meet those needs,
your relationship is gonna pullyou through.
One of the things that I dothink is and this is actually
the last chapter in my book is Italk about being ready to raise
the dog that you have.
I do think everyone has avision for how this is going to

(01:03:45):
look, exactly what their puppyis going to turn out to be, and
I think sometimes people wanteda dog.
Guess that the dog park lookedfun and they want to go to the
dog park.
Then they get a dog and the dogis absolutely not a dog park
candidate.
Or, you know, maybe they got adog for the little boy in the
family because the little girlis super bonded to the other dog
.
Well, guess what?
This new puppy only likes dad,and you know you have to be

(01:04:10):
ready to accept this individualwho comes into your family,
because they're not all the same.
You can shape around the edgesand stuff, but you have to sit
back and be ready for the joythat's ready to come at you and
don't block the joy that couldbe yours by insisting on a
different vision, because that'sjust a shame.
Puppies really are boy.
If you just surrender to it,puppyhood really can be the

(01:04:32):
dream that it's supposed to be.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Excellent take homehome message and, I think, a
great way to wrap up the show,but where can people find you?
What are you up to next?

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
So I am at puppypicscom W-W-W, puppypics,
p-u-p-p-y P-I-C-K-Scom.
My new book is called Welcomingyour Puppy from Planet Dog how
to go beyond training and raiseyour best friend.
It comes out April 16th andI've just heard there's going to
be an audio version too, sothat's fun.
I'm pretty excited about it.
I'm hoping that it feels reallyeasy to read through and that
it gives people the feeling thatthey can really do this, and

(01:05:08):
it's going to be great.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
Wonderful and, as usual, I will link to all those
in the show notes.
Kathy, thank you so much.
It's been a brilliantconversation and I hope to see
you again in the future.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate being here.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Really fun to talk to you.
I really enjoy chatting withKathy about all things puppies
and the work that I do withaggression cases.
The information that Kathyshares is so crucial to help
avoid having to work withsomeone like me in the first
place.
So many aggressive behaviorscan be mitigated or avoided if
puppies can have these positiveexperiences early in life.
And don't forget to head onover to AggressiveDogcom for

(01:05:47):
more information about helpingdogs with aggression, from the
Aggression in Dogs Master Courseto webinars from world-renowned
experts and even an annualconference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression in dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work

(01:06:08):
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
Ah no, oh, don't go over there.
He's so cute.
Phew, Okay, this is predictable.