August 5, 2024 • 50 mins
Ever wondered how structured routines and dog training can transform lives? Join us in this enlightening episode as we welcome Mattison Simpson, a certified dog trainer and behavior consultant who found her true calling during a five-year prison sentence. Mattison shares her incredible journey from being overwhelmed by prison conditions to finding purpose through rehabilitating retired greyhound racing dogs and participating in honor dorm programs. Her story paints a vivid picture of how these programs provide inmates and dogs with a second chance and the profound emotional bonds formed through this work.
We also dive into Mattison's shift from balanced training methods to reward-based strategies, influenced by significant mentors and her evolving understanding of natural consequences in behavior modification. Learn about the broader impact of prison dog programs, including reduced recidivism rates and alleviated overcrowded shelters. Mattison emphasizes the importance of empathy, accountability, and second chances, not only for the inmates and dogs but also in her rebranded dog training business.
ABOUT MATTISON:
Mattison Skoog-Simpson is a certified dog trainer (CPDT-KA) and behavior consultant (CDBC) with nearly 8 years working experience and a focus on behavioral cases in the shelter and rescue system. Her passion is helping big feeling dogs and the people who love them create new channels of communication and step into a more peaceful life together. Lately her work includes trainer education and mentorship. Her dog, Remi, is an approximately 6 year old spaniel mix adopted as an adult from her local shelter in May of 2021.
Mattison’s business, Freed by Training, provides 1:1 coaching opportunities and self-paced resources to guardians and professionals. She has two audio projects: unPACKEd – the first clinical dog training podcast, taking an open-minded approach at helping real guardians, and Dog Training Bytes - a new interview series with canine professionals delivering valuable stories and lessons that you won’t find in any textbook.
You can connect with Mattison on Instagram @FreedbyTraining.
If you are a guardian seeking help with your big feeling dog, check out her library of resources or schedule a free consultation.
If you are a professional ready for an open-minded education and development program, apply to Mattison’s Canine Behavior Mentorship.
Limited time offer! The Aggression in Dogs Master Course and Expert Webinar Bundle! Only 50 will be made available.
https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/bundles/the-aggression-in-dogs-master-course-and-expert-webinar-bundle-2024
Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com
Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
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Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is a special episode that shines a light on
how dogs can be so powerful andimpactful on our own individual
journeys through life, whetherbeing the incredibly loyal
companions dogs are known for orbeing catalysts for positive
change in our own behavior.
Dogs can rescue us in much thesame way we may rescue them from
(00:23):
difficult situations.
Madison Skook Simpson, acertified dog trainer and
behavior consultant with nearlyeight years working experience
and a focus on behavioral casesin the shelter and rescue system
, joins me for this episodeabout the benefit of prison dog
programs and how they impactedher life.
Her passion is helping bigfeeling dogs and the people who
(00:44):
love them create new channels ofcommunication and step into a
more peaceful life together.
Lately, her work includestrainer education and mentorship
.
Madison's business, freed byTraining, provides one-to-one
coaching opportunities andself-paced resources to
guardians and professionals.
To guardians and professionals.
She has two audio projectsUnpacked the first clinical dog
(01:06):
training podcast, taking anopen-minded approach at helping
real guardians and Dog TrainingBites.
That's a B-Y-T-E-S, a newinterview series with canine
professionals deliveringvaluable stories and lessons
that you won't find in anytextbook.
And if you are enjoying thebitey end of the dog, you can
support the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
(01:27):
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in
Scottsdale, arizona.
With both in-person and onlineoptions, you can learn more
about the Aggression and DogsMaster Course, which is the most
comprehensive course availableanywhere in the world for
learning how to work with andhelp dogs with aggression issues
(01:50):
.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
in dogs.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.
(02:11):
I've got a very special episodethis week.
It is a story of rehabilitationand second chances.
I've got Madison Scoob Simpsonhere with me today and she's
going to tell her story abouther time in incarceration for
five years and the true benefitsof prison dog programs.
So welcome to the show, madison.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Hi Mike, thank you so much for having me and for
giving me a chance to tell thisstory, kind of once and for all.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yes, and I so appreciate you being vulnerable
and opening up with this topic,because I'm sure it's difficult
for you to talk about or forreally anybody that's been
through this type of situationto talk about.
So why don't we begin by youknow from that point of
incarceration and tell me moreabout what that experience was
like and how you got into theprison?
(02:59):
Dog training program.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a perfect place for our
story to kind of begin.
It's important for me thatwe're not spending time talking
about what happened before that,because I don't want any
platform or profit or push toresult from my crime.
That's not what I'm trying tomake happen.
I want to talk about theexperience of incarceration for
(03:23):
me, the involvement in theprison, dog training programs,
and how that changed my life andhow I think it can kind of
change our world.
So I guess I say that it wasalmost eight years ago now that
I woke up in a prison cell,broken with a capital B.
I didn't really have a reasonto wake up each day and so I
(03:46):
wasn't.
I was just sleeping 18 hours aday.
That was the path of leastresistance for me.
But then I started seeing dogs,and where I was incarcerated
for the first, first portion ofmy incarceration was a large
facility about 3,600 women, andthe housing facility that I
started out in was roughly 250women in one room called open
(04:11):
style housing, so it was rows orbays of bunk beds and there was
no even illusion of privacy,and I started seeing these dogs
around around what they calledthe farm.
That's what they called thefacility the rehabilitation
center.
I started seeing these dogsaround what they called the farm
.
That's what they called thefacility, the rehabilitation
center.
I started seeing these dogs.
There were different dogs.
There was a lot of greyhoundsand then lots of other dogs,
(04:33):
some invest and some not.
So I got curious and I startedasking what that was about and
found out there were a couple ofdifferent dog programs there at
the facility that you could getinvolved in.
One was specificallyrehabilitating retired greyhound
racing dogs and really aboutgiving them the space to learn
to be pets when they'd neverbeen allowed to be pets.
(04:54):
They had been profit machines.
They had been, you know, justsimilar to horse racing.
But then the other program wasconsidered an honor program.
It was in an honor dorm andthat was compelling to me
because those inmates lived infour-man cells and going from
249 roommates to three roommateswas again very compelling to me
(05:16):
.
And there was just somethingmissing, like when you don't
even have a reason to wake up inthe morning.
That's sad, and at first I waswilling to just do that, just
sleep through five years.
I knew I was going to be therefor five years.
I had a mandatory sentence andsomething just changed.
I just wasn't ready.
(05:36):
I wasn't ready to just sinkinto myself.
I think it was the medicationsthat they put me on that really
made me hit my breaking point.
I remember walking into themental health department and
they handed me a list of medsand said what do you want?
You just got to pick, and themedication they gave me made me
start sleepwalking off of my topbunk and sleep eating, and I
(05:58):
was just really feeling out ofcontrol in a way that I never,
never, would have enjoyed, andso I decided to do what I need
to do to get into that program.
So I applied, I interviewed, Idid it and I got over there and,
man, they run a tight ship.
It was like a bootcamp, like amilitary bootcamp.
You had to be up at, you know,about 6am, you had to make your
(06:20):
bed.
There were so many rules, andthat was a really good thing
because I needed that structureand, most importantly, I got to
start working with dogs, and Ithink what they do really,
really well is the first 30 days.
Unless you have a buddy who isa more experienced handler with
you, you don't even hold a leash.
We practiced with empty leashesfor 30 days.
(06:43):
And I look back on that and I'mlike, yeah, no wonder my
mechanics are pretty good.
I, you know, I rehearsed itlike I was rehearsing dribbling
a basketball or a dance step andthat's why and I think the
mechanic side of it is a littlebit muscle memory and we just
clocked hours and hours andhours of that and hours and
(07:04):
hours of that and there werejust so many benefits to being
around those animals that Ifinally had a reason to get up.
I had to, I had to take my dogout, I had to feed my dog, I had
to walk my dog, I had to do allof these things that gave me a
purpose, which I didn't thinkthat I'd be like okay, I'm going
to go to prison and find apurpose, but it happened.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So tell me more about the type of training that was
happening in there and what youwere asked to do.
So what kind of training, tasks, procedures, protocols, what
was happening in there?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
The program has three branches to it and this is
again at the first facilitywhere I was, and the way that
these programs are structuredthe ones that are doing well and
the ones that are survivingwithin the prison systems in our
country.
They're very clever in the waythat they are set up.
So there's three branches.
There is the Humane Societypiece of the program which at a
certain point I got to kind ofrun that and be in charge of
(07:56):
that and that's where my heartwas and that is where they're
pulling six to eight shelterdogs at a time, rotating them
through with inmates, teachingthem fundamental obedience
skills and making them lookreally adoptable and then
getting them adopted out.
And frequently they're adoptedby the prison staff because they
fall in love with them.
The second piece of the programis a service dog training
program where they've actuallypartnered with a company who
(08:19):
brings dogs in on rotation andchecks in every couple of weeks
through these meetings.
And that was for the inmates.
That had been a part of theprogram for longer and had maybe
a little bit more like actualambition to get into dog
training when they were released.
This was an opportunity forthem to take some basic skills
and refine them into some moreadvanced skills, teaching things
like place.
(08:39):
For us that was a reallyadvanced skill.
And then the piece of theprogram that is volume-wise the
largest piece and the reasonthat it's self-sufficient is the
staff daycare program.
So staff members at the prisonand actually any state staff
member maybe highway patrolofficer we had wardens from
(09:00):
other institutions bring theirdogs for daycare boarding,
grooming from other institutions, bring their dogs for daycare
boarding, grooming, all of itand the prices.
You had an inmate assigned toyour dog.
It wasn't many dogs to oneperson, it was one to one every
single time.
$3 a day, $5 a day, somethinglike $8 for an overnight
(09:20):
boarding like an absolutebargain.
But that money doesn't go to theinmates because that's not the
way that it works.
You know there was not a lot ofmoney coming to the inmates and
that's the way it's structured.
That went into keepingeverything else running bringing
in the food for the HumaneSociety program, paying for
transport, paying for all thefunds needed, just buying
(09:43):
supplies, buying leashes andcollars and things like that.
And so the reason that'simportant is because there's not
going to be any funding for aprogram like this.
This is not something that thestate government is going to set
aside money in their budget for, so there has to be a way to
find or create the money, andthis does it.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Makes sense.
It makes sense.
So it sounds like you spentquite a bit of time with.
Was it one dog that you wereassigned to most of the time or
did you kind of rotate throughdogs?
And also, did the dogs spendtime in the cells with you, like
I know that some percent dogowners they actually sleep with
the same cell or the same, thesame area, right?
So tell me more about that.
(10:25):
Like, what was the day, dailyroutine with a dog?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
yeah, again, I want to talk about the first facility
, because things were a littlebit different at the other
facility in the way that theprogram was structured and the
rules and things like that.
But at the first facility whereI was, there's a secretary and
she is the one who is assigningbased on the tickets that come
in from up at the front office,where the staff members are
purchasing their daycare,boarding, grooming tickets Once
(10:50):
a week, the secretary isassigning dogs to inmates.
Now it changed, but there weremany cases of, yes, I have a
regular dog.
For me personally, I had aregular dog who was my sergeant
in our unit.
It was his dog, it was hissenior dog and I just had a
special place in my heart forthis very, very old dog that,
(11:11):
like, really needed to becarried and needed to have his
eyes cleaned a couple times aday and needed to have insulin
injections twice a day.
It just it was really specialfor me and so he would always be
with me when he was there fordaycare a couple days a week.
He would always be with me whenhe was boarding because the
sergeant knew that I was awareof all of his special needs as
well.
But there was also rotationalopportunities, especially within
(11:34):
the Humane Society portionwhich I ran.
That's a really great place fortrainers to develop.
So we would do we foundsix-week rotations was the best
for the Humane Society.
So the dogs come in from theshelter and they stay until they
have a reason to leave, butevery six weeks we would rotate
them to a new handler.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Got it and where would the dogs be kept during
the overnights, or you know?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, so they were in our cells.
We had kennels and they wouldbe in our cells in kennels.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Wow, so you had a lot of time to bond with the dog
that was under your care.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
It was 24 hours a day , yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Was that the same case in bothfacilities or?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, the biggest difference in the second
facility was that they were.
The way that program was set up, I think, was even more clever,
because there was actuallyopportunities for the inmates to
earn a small amount ofcommission.
The program was stillself-sufficient, but we were
able to earn a little bit ofmoney which I was able to save
up and have something to startmy life over with when I left,
which was great.
But the biggest difference isthat the program is created so
that full-time trainers alwayshave bottom bunks, which is not
(12:38):
something that was evenconsidered in the other facility
and for many of the dogs at thesecond facility facility, the
owners really wanted us to betreating these dogs like they
were our dogs.
So these dogs were in our beds,they were sleeping in our bunks
with us.
That was a very like, veryintimate, very bond forming time
where and that's where Iactually, at the second facility
(13:00):
, I spent time at I had aregular dog that I had three
days a week for 18 months andevery time he boarded and I was
his groomer.
So talk about, you know,forming a relationship with a
dog.
He was very, very special to me.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
And the amount of purpose that must give you.
You know, to have something nowto focus on.
You know you had mentionedyou're going from sleeping 18
hours a day to trying all thesedifferent meds to finally
finding purpose.
Did you see that shift happenkind of overnight or did it take
some time from where you foundyourself in those first few days
(13:35):
to where you're flourishing andtaking time with these dogs and
getting being able to havepurpose?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, it definitely happened overnight, because it
had to, because that programagain was was designed to run
like a boot camp.
So the daily schedule five daysa week you're up, you go to
breakfast, you come back,starting at eight, there is a
50-minute long class on dogeducation some topic of dog
education.
(14:00):
Ten-minute break At nine,50-minute walk where we lined up
in like three separate linesand every dog and every person
is walking, whether you have adog or not, if you're, if you
don't have a dog, you're aspacer in between people that do
have dogs and you're practicingall of these skills that we're
talking about.
And then 10 minute break andthen at 10 am we would do what's
(14:20):
called a training circle.
We do a 20 minute trainingcircle where everyone circles up
with their dog heel.
Let's go have your dog sit,have your dog down, have your
dog wait, take two steps awayfrom your dog, call your dog to
you and praise, right, and justrunning, mechanics, mechanics,
mechanics.
And then it was lunch and thenit was repeat the same schedule
in the afternoon.
So that was the amount ofeducation, interaction, go, go,
(14:42):
structure.
There wasn't room to be like.
Is this for me?
Is this helping me?
It was like well, I'm here now,I'm in it and you are just in it
.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Wow, so tell me about how that helped you, or did it
help you, I should ask, withyour relationships with the
other inmates, because you allkind of now have this common
interest which is taking upsounds like quite a bit of your
day and your time and yourpurpose there.
Would you say that helped interms of talking to others,
(15:15):
relating to people again?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I hadn't thought about it.
But yeah, I think I reallystruggled over in the previous
housing situation I was in tofind ways to connect with people
because my first instinct wasto just retreat into myself and
hide.
And it's when you're afraid andyou're scared you're not going
to show parts of yourself to beable to make those connections.
(15:37):
But when you are all gatheredaround a really really clear
common interest, it's super easyto connect with people because
you just talk about dogs andit's funny that you say that,
like you know, you spend yourwhole day with them.
I formed an immediate bond withmy bunkie.
I formed an immediate bond withone of my other cellmates and I
(15:59):
remember for the first timebeing tired like at the end of
the day, not just, oh, I'm goingto sleep now, I'm going to
sleep because that's, that'swhat there is to do.
I'm exhausted.
My body, my brain, everythingis tired from an active and full
day.
It was a totally differentexperience and I remember
feeling like that was a lot andI'm really really tired, but
(16:22):
like this I can do lot and I'mreally really tired, but like
this I can do this.
I can get on board with andjust knowing right away that I
was in the right place for whereI was in that season of my life
.
That was the best place that Icould have been.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
So it was a good tired.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
It was a very good tired, you know.
I think that that's animportant, an important
distinction to make is like wehave these moments and we have
these activities that are goingto drain us in a good way, and
we have things that are going todrain us but it's going to be
okay, it's going to be good,Like going for a hike or going
to the gym, like you're tiredbut you feel good about that
tired.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yes, definitely, and you talk about.
On your website, too.
You actually use these words ofempowerment and accountability.
You know, and these thingswould you say you've learned
through that experience, or isit something you were always
thinking about throughout yourlife?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Or is it?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
tell me more about those words that you've kind of
chosen to use and some of yourabout me page.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
You know, the, the empowerment and the
accountability pieces are such abig part of my life today I
don't know that I've reallytaken the moment to pause and
connect that back to thatexperience.
But now that I am, I can seehow the type of training that I
(17:41):
do now and the way that I trainwith people working with them
virtually every single day it'sa lot like that because we're
getting that daily interaction,that daily insight into what's
happening.
You know, it's not aboutoversight, Whereas I think that
within the prison setting itinherently is going to be
supervision.
But I was forced into that dailyaccountability I had my
(18:02):
sergeant's dog If I wasn'ttaking his dog out to go to the
bathroom.
His office was right there hewas going to know.
Also, the structure of theprogram is such that there are
inmates in positions ofauthority and within that
program specifically, they havegiven that authority power in
the form of inmate to inmatereprimand, like a written
(18:26):
reprimand, and you get five ofthem in 90 days you're out and
it could be for not making yourbed right.
It could be because your shoesweren't tucked in.
It could be because your drawerwasn't closed or your lockbox
wasn't pushed in.
It could be for something assimple as they heard you say a
cuss word out on the yard andthat's against the additional
(18:46):
rule book that living in thatprogram comes with that.
The other, the generalpopulation of inmates they're
not held to those standards.
So I had roommates and bunkiesand friends that they weren't
there to tattle on me.
But if I was not doing my joband I was not caring for the
(19:07):
animal in my responsibility,somebody was going to know and
that was going to get back tosomebody who was going to write
me a report and I was going tohave to answer for that.
So it never came to that.
It did with others.
So, yeah, I think there was aforced accountability that now I
just see that as such anintegral part of my life, my
training of I ask people to holdme accountable for stuff all
(19:29):
the time.
If there's something that Iwant to make sure I'm going to
show up for and I think I mightstruggle with that then I need a
buddy, I need a partner, andthat's what I like to be for
people out there too.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
And, in a sense, when you think about it, that
accountability that you, thatwas kind of put on you in that
system, and when we think aboutthe word empowerment, which is
giving somebody the opportunitya dog or a person, the
opportunity to act on theirchoices right, they have choices
, they're empowered to makechoices, to act on their
environment.
Can you talk about that sort ofdichotomy and how you see it
(20:03):
kind of fit into your trainingthat you do today?
So you had just mentioned, youknow you like when people hold
you accountable to your trainingand to the tasks that you have
on hand, but on the opposite end, we have empowerment, which is
giving the person theopportunity to be accountable, I
guess.
So what do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I think I can look back at that experience not just
being in the dog program butjust being incarcerated in
general as the ultimate exampleof having no choices, no agency,
no control over my own life.
I was told what to wear, whatto eat, when to be where, and
(20:43):
when you're in it you don'treally know anything else, nor
did I have an option foranything else.
But now the way that thataffects the way that I train
dogs is just coming at it from aperson who knows what it's like
to have their agency and voicetaken.
(21:04):
I had absolutely no say in whatwas going on around me other
than trying to get myself intothis program, and I think that
there is a huge correlationbetween when I look around the
industry because I also was in avery weird opportunity, very
weird space to be able to comeout and kind of have fresh eyes
(21:26):
on this industry that I'd neverbeen a part of and I see a lot
of correlation betweenmethodology and the way that the
trainers are going to interactwith their client dogs and the
degree to which they know whatit's like to experience that, to
have their voice taken, to havetheir agency taken, to be able
to empathize with an animalpotentially in that situation.
(21:49):
Now, again in that setting andin that situation seven, eight
years ago now, I didn't havethat lens.
Like I can now reflect onmoments where there were dogs
that I thought were beingrehabilitated, that were being
taught new skills, and they wereabsolutely shut down and
(22:10):
absolutely in a state of learnedhelplessness and there wasn't
really any learning happening.
And I think that that'sprobably also what I was
experiencing was.
You know, this is kind of myonly option and my only choice.
So this is what I'm going to do, and so I choose not not to use
that in my training.
I choose not to only give onechoice and one option.
I don't want the dogs that Iwork with or the people that I
(22:32):
work with to only make decisionsbased on fear of repercussion.
That's just not the way that Ichoose to operate, because it
makes me really uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Absolutely.
And when you think about therestrictions our society places
on dogs right and in someextreme examples which you might
even draw parallels to solitaryconfinement in some situations
we have dogs in shelter systemsand other confinement, long-term
confinement I should say thatis solitary, they don't have
(23:03):
access to many other people ifmore than one person per day and
no other dogs.
And when you think about thedetriment to their behavioral
health I'll call it and you canlook at those parallels.
So do you draw upon that too,like just how much confinement
you might see in your client'sdogs and empathize with that and
try to immediately startlooking at giving that
(23:26):
empowerment, giving more choices, really changing up the
environment for that dog in away that also if let's say it is
an aggression case or somethingand that's where the dog has to
be safely contained in someaspects.
But can you talk me throughmore of that and your thought
process there or your thoughtson it in general?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well, when I have a client who has a dog whose world
is very small, for whateverreason, I think we have to look
at why those are in place, right?
Is it because the dog isterrified of the outside world?
Is it because the dog poses asafety risk when they're in the
outside world?
And then it's just a matter ofcoming up with a plan.
(24:06):
There's always plans to safelytake steps forward period.
There's always ways toimplement more management
practice, practice, practice andthen take steps forward, even
if they feel really small andinsignificant.
They add up just that 1% eachday, right?
Like, okay, you may only beable to get onto your front
porch with a muzzle and a leash,but that's that much further
(24:28):
than you were last week, andyeah.
So I think there's a hugeamount of empowerment there.
And I think it's what's mostimportant to the success of that
type of training is building upthe human's confidence in their
own abilities and helping themfeel ready, because that's what
really matters is that they canmentally be prepared for that
(24:51):
moment.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
CB.
And just to go back a littlebit too, you had mentioned you
don't want the animal to feellike the only way to learn is
because of ramifications orrepercussions for their behavior
.
So is that something you reallygrew into or something with
your training?
So, in terms of the prison dogtraining methodology, in terms
(25:14):
of your experiences there, didyou find yourself like come on
out the gate, I'm like all right, that's my thing, Like I'm not
going to train dogs with anykind of corrections.
It's going to be.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh gosh, no, I've been all over.
I've been all over the boardwith that.
So, looking at the twodifferent facilities and the two
different trainers that I guessI apprenticed under in those
contexts the first one throughreflection I can see it was a
compulsion trainer and thesecond one was definitely more
(25:43):
reward based.
But there was probably somebalanced elements in that.
I think.
Looking back, when I was firstreleased from prison, I was
operating as absolutely abalanced trainer.
I did not start as a rewardsbased trainer or even using any
of the really approaches I usetoday.
I was also at that point doingmore obedience work, which I
(26:04):
think is where you see a lot ofthe copy and paste, balanced
models, because they work andthey can show really efficient
results in some dogs.
So people get really excitedabout that, about, oh, look at
what I can teach this dog superquickly.
And it took somebody who lovedme enough to be brave enough to
(26:28):
say to me Madison, efficiency isnot enough, it's not enough.
I know who said that to me.
She was.
She's a very, very dear friendof mine and I still remember it
today that she floated that ideaby me that I was delivering
something to people and it wasvaluable, it wasn't enough.
It wasn't zooming out to lookat the whole picture that was
(26:52):
happening.
So I think that was a bigturning point for me was when I
was released and I started toget really curious about what
was out there and just startededucating myself from everything
across the board, from e-collartraining in particular, because
that was something that wedidn't have access to, that.
So I came out into the worldlike what is this modern tool
and just wanted to learn andunderstand it.
(27:14):
And then I really dove intoother animals because I thought
there was a lot to be to belearned in just animal training
in general.
And I think that is whatilluminated so many of the flaws
in my previous logic intraining, because with other
animals you don't get away withthe same stuff that apparently
we're getting away with trainingdogs.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah.
So it sounds like this paradigmshift was really precipitated
by this person.
Helping you say, with theefficiency is not enough, and
would you say that yourexperiences again in
incarceration and the systemthat's in place there where
there are repercussions, butthey're also giving you what we
might say is a positivereinforcer.
We're giving you something tolook forward to and to reinforce
(27:59):
desirable behavior in thehumans that are there and the
population that's there.
So in a sense, if we were todraw that parallel, it's kind of
not an exact parallel, but ifwe're looking at that system
it's sort of a balanced approachto behavior change.
But then you are released andyou get into the dog training
world and you mentioned you hadsome sort of.
(28:20):
You were starting out asbalanced, I guess if you were to
label yourself but thatparadigm has shifted for you to
a reward-based strategy, wouldyou say you've had some of that.
Past experience has influencedalso your shift to what it is
today.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that when I look at myexperience as a learner in that
prison dog training program, thepotential repercussion of being
released back out into generalpopulation yeah, that that would
have been an aversive situationfor me.
So I did everything I could toavoid it.
(28:55):
But that to me was that to mewas more a natural consequence
of my environment.
That wasn't.
It wasn't as much like asergeant coming in and writing a
ticket and immediately puttingme out in population.
That to me, would be like aswift punishment.
This, to me, was a naturalconsequence of the environment
(29:17):
and that's something where I dothink I guess my background as
as a balanced or more, you know,aversive style of trainer.
(29:38):
I think it gives me a lens tobe able to look for the
consequences that exist, whetherwe want to acknowledge them or
not, you know, because the worlddoes provide consequences to us
, to our dogs.
There's, there's always goingto be natural consequences and I
think that we need to be muchmore critically looking at those
and using them to our benefitor, at the very least, making
sure they're not working againstus.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Interesting.
I would love to jump more intowhat you're just saying there,
but what we're going to do istake a quick break so we can
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All right, we're back here withMadison.
We've been talking about prisondog training programs as well as
all of the benefits that havecome out of this story for
(32:58):
Madison and the changes not onlyin her life but also in her
training style, and we'retalking about balance training
versus rewards-based trainingearlier and how it's shifted in
your what you were doingpreviously to what you're doing
now.
And you know, I love that we'redrawing on these parallels
because I think there's so muchwe can learn from changing
(33:20):
behavior, whether it's in humansor dogs.
So you had mentioned also, youknow, some of the work you do
now is with rescues or shelters,or you're getting dogs that
your clients.
They get a dog from a rescueand I'm guessing that there's a
way that you explain things toclients to help them understand
(33:40):
what their dog's been through,especially if coming from a
background where their behaviorwas not fit for society.
Right, for lack of a betterphrase.
But let's say they didsomething, they bit somebody or
they did something that societywould deem as not acceptable,
right?
Do you ever use those analogies, or do you ever talk more to
your clients about it?
(34:01):
Because I know it's not alsosomething you're like probably
advertising to your clients, butlike where your past right.
So do you kind of put in someparallels there, or do you even
want to like have some thoughtson that?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Well, I made a conscious decision over a year
ago to at the very least, takeback my story and own my
narrative, and I changed mybranding completely.
So my brand is freed bytraining.
There's barbed wire on it.
I'm not trying to hide anythinganymore.
That was a part of my life thatI wanted to step away from.
(34:33):
I was really feeling a lot ofshame and I could have stayed
living in that forever, and Ichose to step out of it.
So it is far more public now andin the last six months or so
than I think it's ever been whenit comes to discussing dogs'
pasts, especially in the contextof past and their oh and their
(34:54):
troubled beginnings, and I thinkthat there's very little value
(35:16):
there in terms of creating astrategy forward.
Now, if there's been anexperience that's happened that
they're totally aware of, ithappened while the dog was in
their care.
It happened while they knew thedog.
They have information on that.
That's different.
The dog they have informationon that.
That's different.
(35:36):
In that case, I think it's lessabout teaching them to
empathize with a creature makinga bad decision, because that's
how I feel.
I feel like I'm a good person.
I made a bad choice With dogs.
I think it's more about, inthat moment, again, doing the
opposite, taking away a littlebit of that, that empathy, and
helping them understand thatbehavior is not yes, it's
(35:57):
emotionally fueled, but behavioris a reflection of a function
and there's a reason that thatbehavior was present, and
getting more curious about thatand focusing more on what
management can we put in place.
Yes, we want to be looking atwhat could have possibly caused
and contributed that so we canunderstand it.
(36:19):
But I don't think I frequentlyhave to have the conversation
with people about forgivingtheir dog or rehabilitating
their dog.
I do confidently tell you knowmost of the people that I work
with yeah, I do think your dogcan be fixed or rehabilitated or
whatever, whatever languagethey use to me, you know, can
this problem be solved?
Can I get to the solution?
(36:40):
Yeah, yeah, you can.
Are you willing to show up?
Are you willing to, you know,look at the timeline and
acknowledge that that's notgoing to be in your control.
Okay, cool, yeah, we can dothis.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Love it All right.
So I want to jump back tosomething you had said before,
because I think it's aninteresting topic that we should
dive more into, which is youmentioned something about
learning in a microcosm, or youhad limitations on the amount of
information available to you,and even when you were released,
there's still limitations, andsometimes we get into our one
(37:11):
lane and it's hard to step outof that lane when we're given
information in a microcosm,because we tend to find the same
information, especially ifwe're on social media or any
other way that the algorithmsare feeding you the same thing.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Speaker 2 (37:25):
When I was in the institution.
I think that was the ultimatemicrocosm, because the dog
training education that we hadwas photocopies of photocopies,
and what we had printed out andhanded to us was fact and then
we were tested on it too.
So you knew it was true andthey could have told us every
dog had five legs and it wouldhave been right there right Now.
(37:47):
I know that they didn't.
They didn't do that.
They didn't intentionally giveus false information, but there
are certainly there wascertainly information within
that that is probably notrelevant anymore that I maybe
wouldn't agree with at thispoint.
So I do think it's incrediblydangerous to only be taking in
information from one source.
(38:08):
Like I said, I think it'simportant to look at other
species.
I think it's important to lookat other species.
I think it's important to lookat other industries and
practices.
My past life as a businessperson studying business there's
so much about business andmanagement and efficiency that
has impacted my dog training ina good way.
There's so much that I'velearned and picked up in therapy
(38:29):
that has made me a better dogtrainer.
I feel that by finally actuallyconnecting with the right
therapist and being able tounderstand my nervous system and
the impacts that it wasexperiencing my nervous system
and the impact that panicattacks were having on my
nervous system, I couldimmediately see parallels to
(38:51):
dogs.
Now I'm not saying that everyreactive dog or fearful dog is
having a panic attack.
What I am saying is there'sbeen a moment that I've looked
at a dog in distress and it justhit me like I've been there, I
feel that that look of panic intheir eyes and feeling so
emotionally out of control inthat moment and feeling like I
(39:13):
couldn't be responsible for myphysical actions, like that's
really scary and frustrating.
So I think it did give me someempathy to dogs with these big,
big emotions and big behaviorsthat that come along with it.
And along the journey oflearning how to regulate dog
nervous systems through variousfunnels there I was also
(39:34):
learning how to regulate my ownnervous system.
I have a brain for patterns.
I've always had a brain forpatterns.
When I'm having a panic attackI do like Fibonacci's in my head
.
I love the Fibonacci sequence.
So something really repetitiveand logical is my go-to skill
set when I am pre-panic attackor in a panic attack.
(39:55):
And when I saw the parallelsbetween that and between food
pattern games with dogs.
For example, it was just thisexploding head emoji moment of
we can teach ourselves skillsand then teach it to our dog,
and it was so cool.
It's such a great skill to haveand to be able to actually
(40:15):
watch it get put into action.
Something as simple as countingcan be beneficial to both dogs
and people.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Yeah, so it sounds like through your journey here
you know you've again going backto the first part of your story
.
We're sleeping 18 hours a day.
There's no purpose.
You just just like, all right,I'm going to sleep, just to
sleep, to learning about theprison dog program, to being
(40:42):
released and really broadeninghow you're learning, it sounds
like as well.
So you get out of thesemicrocosms, you start to expand
into not only just training, butyou mentioned other animals and
your own therapy and how muchis applied to dog training.
Where in that did you see thatreally occur?
Like you know, was it when youwere just released?
You're like, wait a second.
Now I've got this new lease onlife and I've got all of these
learning opportunities.
Why not just take in everything?
(41:03):
I can soak it up like a sponge.
Was there like some point orsome epiphany or somebody saying
something, some conversation?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So there was an epiphany and it was because I
didn't want to train dogs.
I came out of prison convincedI was going to go back to
corporate America, and that'swhat I did.
I got a contract position.
I got a 12-month contractworking with a huge company
doing corporate communications,making really good money, which
I didn't even expect to bemaking right out the gate, but I
was.
Also, I had gotten a job at adaycare a dog daycare while I
was waiting for things toprocess, making $9 an hour, and
(41:39):
through that I started taking onsome training clients because
why not?
I've got the skill.
They needed some help, why not?
Well, it got to a point I wasbasically working two full-time
jobs.
At that point I was working39.75 hours on the contract job
doing the corporate gig, andthen I was training dogs and
there was something really emptyin my daily work.
(41:59):
I felt that I was doingsomething that anyone who could
navigate PowerPoint could do andit felt really meaningless,
like it felt like what I wasdoing didn't matter and that was
really sad.
But then in the evenings and onthe weekends I'm out training
dogs and helping people andseeing the impact and see and
(42:22):
like people are thanking me andjust really grateful.
And I'm seeing the change and Icouldn't do it anymore.
I couldn't continue leadingthese two lives one that felt
really fulfilled, one that feltreally fulfilled and one that
felt really, really forced.
So I left the 12 month contractsix months in and had, all
honestly, all the support in theworld from my immediate boss.
It was just, you know, don'texpect to come back, but, but
(42:44):
we're really really happy foryou and it was really scary and
there were a lot of missteps,certainly when I first started
training full time.
But I'm really really happy nowwith what I'm doing, with my
life, and I would never want togo back to just having a job
that I did to get a paycheck,which was exactly what I was
(43:06):
doing.
I don't think I could.
I genuinely don't think I could.
I think it would be intolerableto me at this point, because I
wake up with a fire in my chestevery single day.
That just makes it pretty easyfor me to get through my workday
and to get through what I'mdoing, because I love it that
much.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Yes, and clearly you're a shining example of
prison dog programs and thebenefits of them, so let's talk
more about that as well.
You had mentioned a couple ofdifferent programs, but can you
give me a rundown, more of whatyou know about the different
programs out there and thebenefits that you're seeing, and
talk us through some of that aswell?
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Absolutely.
They have so many benefits toboth the human and animal
populations here in our country.
And I say in our country, and Isay in our country and I think
that's really important to lookat as well, because the United
States incarcerates at aninsanely high volume compared to
anywhere else in the world andit's because it is not entirely,
(44:07):
but in many instances, afor-profit structure.
Many of these institutions areprivate institutions.
They are for-profit and theyget a big fat check for every
single inmate that walks in thedoor.
That's why you see inmatessentenced to prison, not jail,
prison time for 22 days.
We as inmates call that a pettyfelony when they're literally
(44:29):
just sending you there where itcould have been classified as a
misdemeanor.
But it was instead classifiedas a felony in order to get more
profits into the prison systems.
And we won't go into thecorrelation there between those
individuals and the judges andthe justice department.
But there are so many benefitsto these programs.
When you look at the recidivismrate and recidivism is how
(44:52):
likely is an inmate, somebodywho has been convicted of a
felony, sent to a prison, hasbeen incarcerated, they've been
released.
How likely are they tore-offend and the impact that
these programs have on therecidivism rate.
I don't have the numbers, but Iknow that it's substantial.
I know that it's making a hugedifference.
(45:13):
Zach Scow in California with thePositive Change Program is a
really, really well-knownprogram that does just this does
these prison dog programs on alarger scale than anything I've
seen.
It's used in multipleinstitutions and the other thing
that this is doing on top ofreducing recidivism, on top of
increasing productivity justwithin the inmate population and
(45:34):
improving lives and bringing aservice to the state employees
who are like, oh my gosh, I canboard my dog for $40 for a week,
that's great and have an inmatetrainer training that dog full
time, like there's so manybenefits to the people.
But we can also reduce theshelter populations.
The fact that we are paying wetaxpayers are paying to house
(46:01):
both humans and animals inseparate facilities across our
country is silly when they canbe housed together and we can
save a lot of money and we cangive people purpose and I just
think that there's a lot to bedone for our communities by
tying these two things together,where there's such an untapped
resource within the inmates.
I'm going to tell you this likefrom a first person perspective.
We do not feel taken advantageof in those programs, are we
(46:24):
Maybe?
Maybe In the ones where there'sno money coming to you?
Maybe, but we don't feel thatbecause the alternative is worse
.
The alternative is still notseeing money, but also not
having a purpose, but also nothaving something to really make
the experience worthwhile.
And I know that that soundsbackwards, but there were so
(46:47):
many times while I wasincarcerated that somebody came
to speak to us and was like thisdoesn't have to be a waste.
This doesn't have to be fiveyears gone, 10 years gone.
This doesn't have to be well,it's just done for me.
There are second chances, thereare opportunities to step into
a new life and I really want tobe gosh, not the poster child
(47:11):
for anything.
But it doesn't matter.
It really doesn't matter whereyou came from.
It really doesn't matter if youwere incarcerated or if you had
an addiction or if you werehomeless.
It doesn't matter where you camefrom.
You are able to help people andif you can work through what
(47:31):
you've been through and releasethat fear of vulnerability,
you're going to be able to meetpeople where they're at in a way
that probably nobody else can.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
That's really well said, and I appreciate you
sharing that insight, becauseit's things that we need to
think about much more, and I'mreally glad you're bringing this
to the forefront and talkingabout it more.
So, yeah, thank you for sharingthat, and I think that's a good
way to wrap up, but before wedo, I'd like to know what you're
working on next and wherepeople can find you.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Well, I see clients, virtually client dogs.
That is using the in my opinion, revolutionary.
That is using the in my opinion, revolutionary, necessary model
of daily, daily training, dailyvirtual training.
I said accountability, butthere's also a ton of
empowerment.
The empowerment piece is thatyou don't need me to train your
dog, you don't, you're enoughfor your dog and you know a
(48:27):
trainer can help you get there.
But I don't want owners,guardians, to be told you're not
enough for your dog.
I don't want to be putting thatmessage out in the world.
I also have a behaviormentorship for other trainers
who have been through some typeof initial education on like
core learning theory and theywant to learn more about
behavior change and the emotionsunderneath of it.
(48:49):
And I also have some businessresources coming out for other
dog trainers.
So you can find all of that atwwwfreedbytrainingcom.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Excellent, madison.
Thank you so much.
We'll be sure to link to allthose links in the show notes,
as usual, and I hope to see youagain in the future.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Thanks, mike.
I really appreciate youallowing me to tell my story in
this way and talk about thingsthat I've been wanting to talk
about, but I think it's hardsometimes to start this
conversation, so I reallyappreciate you being really
curious about these programs andwhat we can learn from them
(49:33):
accountability, redemption,empowerment and empathy with me.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Dogs can have such a profound and positive impact on
the lives of humans, and I'msure Madison agrees.
Please consider supporting yourlocal prison dog training
program, as they often rely ondonations from fellow animal
lovers like yourself.
And don't forget to head onover to aggressivedogcom for
more information about helpingdogs with aggression from the
Aggression and Dogs MasterCourse to webinars from
world-renowned experts and evenan annual conference.
(49:57):
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression and dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression cases, such as
resource guarding, dog-to-dogaggression, territorial
aggression, fear-basedaggression and much, much more.
(50:18):
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.
This is a special episode that shines a light on
how dogs can be so powerful andimpactful on our own individual
journeys through life, whetherbeing the incredibly loyal
companions dogs are known for orbeing catalysts for positive
change in our own behavior.
Dogs can rescue us in much thesame way we may rescue them from
(00:23):
difficult situations.
Madison Skook Simpson, acertified dog trainer and
behavior consultant with nearlyeight years working experience
and a focus on behavioral casesin the shelter and rescue system
, joins me for this episodeabout the benefit of prison dog
programs and how they impactedher life.
Her passion is helping bigfeeling dogs and the people who
(00:44):
love them create new channels ofcommunication and step into a
more peaceful life together.
Lately, her work includestrainer education and mentorship
.
Madison's business, freed byTraining, provides one-to-one
coaching opportunities andself-paced resources to
guardians and professionals.
To guardians and professionals.
She has two audio projectsUnpacked the first clinical dog
(01:06):
training podcast, taking anopen-minded approach at helping
real guardians and Dog TrainingBites.
That's a B-Y-T-E-S, a newinterview series with canine
professionals deliveringvaluable stories and lessons
that you won't find in anytextbook.
And if you are enjoying thebitey end of the dog, you can
support the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
(01:27):
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in
Scottsdale, arizona.
With both in-person and onlineoptions, you can learn more
about the Aggression and DogsMaster Course, which is the most
comprehensive course availableanywhere in the world for
learning how to work with andhelp dogs with aggression issues
(01:50):
.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
in dogs.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.
(02:11):
I've got a very special episodethis week.
It is a story of rehabilitationand second chances.
I've got Madison Scoob Simpsonhere with me today and she's
going to tell her story abouther time in incarceration for
five years and the true benefitsof prison dog programs.
So welcome to the show, madison.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Hi Mike, thank you so much for having me and for
giving me a chance to tell thisstory, kind of once and for all.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yes, and I so appreciate you being vulnerable
and opening up with this topic,because I'm sure it's difficult
for you to talk about or forreally anybody that's been
through this type of situationto talk about.
So why don't we begin by youknow from that point of
incarceration and tell me moreabout what that experience was
like and how you got into theprison?
(02:59):
Dog training program.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a perfect place for our
story to kind of begin.
It's important for me thatwe're not spending time talking
about what happened before that,because I don't want any
platform or profit or push toresult from my crime.
That's not what I'm trying tomake happen.
I want to talk about theexperience of incarceration for
(03:23):
me, the involvement in theprison, dog training programs,
and how that changed my life andhow I think it can kind of
change our world.
So I guess I say that it wasalmost eight years ago now that
I woke up in a prison cell,broken with a capital B.
I didn't really have a reasonto wake up each day and so I
(03:46):
wasn't.
I was just sleeping 18 hours aday.
That was the path of leastresistance for me.
But then I started seeing dogs,and where I was incarcerated
for the first, first portion ofmy incarceration was a large
facility about 3,600 women, andthe housing facility that I
started out in was roughly 250women in one room called open
(04:11):
style housing, so it was rows orbays of bunk beds and there was
no even illusion of privacy,and I started seeing these dogs
around around what they calledthe farm.
That's what they called thefacility the rehabilitation
center.
I started seeing these dogsaround what they called the farm
.
That's what they called thefacility, the rehabilitation
center.
I started seeing these dogs.
There were different dogs.
There was a lot of greyhoundsand then lots of other dogs,
(04:33):
some invest and some not.
So I got curious and I startedasking what that was about and
found out there were a couple ofdifferent dog programs there at
the facility that you could getinvolved in.
One was specificallyrehabilitating retired greyhound
racing dogs and really aboutgiving them the space to learn
to be pets when they'd neverbeen allowed to be pets.
(04:54):
They had been profit machines.
They had been, you know, justsimilar to horse racing.
But then the other program wasconsidered an honor program.
It was in an honor dorm andthat was compelling to me
because those inmates lived infour-man cells and going from
249 roommates to three roommateswas again very compelling to me
(05:16):
.
And there was just somethingmissing, like when you don't
even have a reason to wake up inthe morning.
That's sad, and at first I waswilling to just do that, just
sleep through five years.
I knew I was going to be therefor five years.
I had a mandatory sentence andsomething just changed.
I just wasn't ready.
(05:36):
I wasn't ready to just sinkinto myself.
I think it was the medicationsthat they put me on that really
made me hit my breaking point.
I remember walking into themental health department and
they handed me a list of medsand said what do you want?
You just got to pick, and themedication they gave me made me
start sleepwalking off of my topbunk and sleep eating, and I
(05:58):
was just really feeling out ofcontrol in a way that I never,
never, would have enjoyed, andso I decided to do what I need
to do to get into that program.
So I applied, I interviewed, Idid it and I got over there and,
man, they run a tight ship.
It was like a bootcamp, like amilitary bootcamp.
You had to be up at, you know,about 6am, you had to make your
(06:20):
bed.
There were so many rules, andthat was a really good thing
because I needed that structureand, most importantly, I got to
start working with dogs, and Ithink what they do really,
really well is the first 30 days.
Unless you have a buddy who isa more experienced handler with
you, you don't even hold a leash.
We practiced with empty leashesfor 30 days.
(06:43):
And I look back on that and I'mlike, yeah, no wonder my
mechanics are pretty good.
I, you know, I rehearsed itlike I was rehearsing dribbling
a basketball or a dance step andthat's why and I think the
mechanic side of it is a littlebit muscle memory and we just
clocked hours and hours andhours of that and hours and
(07:04):
hours of that and there werejust so many benefits to being
around those animals that Ifinally had a reason to get up.
I had to, I had to take my dogout, I had to feed my dog, I had
to walk my dog, I had to do allof these things that gave me a
purpose, which I didn't thinkthat I'd be like okay, I'm going
to go to prison and find apurpose, but it happened.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So tell me more about the type of training that was
happening in there and what youwere asked to do.
So what kind of training, tasks, procedures, protocols, what
was happening in there?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
The program has three branches to it and this is
again at the first facilitywhere I was, and the way that
these programs are structuredthe ones that are doing well and
the ones that are survivingwithin the prison systems in our
country.
They're very clever in the waythat they are set up.
So there's three branches.
There is the Humane Societypiece of the program which at a
certain point I got to kind ofrun that and be in charge of
(07:56):
that and that's where my heartwas and that is where they're
pulling six to eight shelterdogs at a time, rotating them
through with inmates, teachingthem fundamental obedience
skills and making them lookreally adoptable and then
getting them adopted out.
And frequently they're adoptedby the prison staff because they
fall in love with them.
The second piece of the programis a service dog training
program where they've actuallypartnered with a company who
(08:19):
brings dogs in on rotation andchecks in every couple of weeks
through these meetings.
And that was for the inmates.
That had been a part of theprogram for longer and had maybe
a little bit more like actualambition to get into dog
training when they were released.
This was an opportunity forthem to take some basic skills
and refine them into some moreadvanced skills, teaching things
like place.
(08:39):
For us that was a reallyadvanced skill.
And then the piece of theprogram that is volume-wise the
largest piece and the reasonthat it's self-sufficient is the
staff daycare program.
So staff members at the prisonand actually any state staff
member maybe highway patrolofficer we had wardens from
(09:00):
other institutions bring theirdogs for daycare boarding,
grooming from other institutions, bring their dogs for daycare
boarding, grooming, all of itand the prices.
You had an inmate assigned toyour dog.
It wasn't many dogs to oneperson, it was one to one every
single time.
$3 a day, $5 a day, somethinglike $8 for an overnight
(09:20):
boarding like an absolutebargain.
But that money doesn't go to theinmates because that's not the
way that it works.
You know there was not a lot ofmoney coming to the inmates and
that's the way it's structured.
That went into keepingeverything else running bringing
in the food for the HumaneSociety program, paying for
transport, paying for all thefunds needed, just buying
(09:43):
supplies, buying leashes andcollars and things like that.
And so the reason that'simportant is because there's not
going to be any funding for aprogram like this.
This is not something that thestate government is going to set
aside money in their budget for, so there has to be a way to
find or create the money, andthis does it.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Makes sense.
It makes sense.
So it sounds like you spentquite a bit of time with.
Was it one dog that you wereassigned to most of the time or
did you kind of rotate throughdogs?
And also, did the dogs spendtime in the cells with you, like
I know that some percent dogowners they actually sleep with
the same cell or the same, thesame area, right?
So tell me more about that.
(10:25):
Like, what was the day, dailyroutine with a dog?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
yeah, again, I want to talk about the first facility
, because things were a littlebit different at the other
facility in the way that theprogram was structured and the
rules and things like that.
But at the first facility whereI was, there's a secretary and
she is the one who is assigningbased on the tickets that come
in from up at the front office,where the staff members are
purchasing their daycare,boarding, grooming tickets Once
(10:50):
a week, the secretary isassigning dogs to inmates.
Now it changed, but there weremany cases of, yes, I have a
regular dog.
For me personally, I had aregular dog who was my sergeant
in our unit.
It was his dog, it was hissenior dog and I just had a
special place in my heart forthis very, very old dog that,
(11:11):
like, really needed to becarried and needed to have his
eyes cleaned a couple times aday and needed to have insulin
injections twice a day.
It just it was really specialfor me and so he would always be
with me when he was there fordaycare a couple days a week.
He would always be with me whenhe was boarding because the
sergeant knew that I was awareof all of his special needs as
well.
But there was also rotationalopportunities, especially within
(11:34):
the Humane Society portionwhich I ran.
That's a really great place fortrainers to develop.
So we would do we foundsix-week rotations was the best
for the Humane Society.
So the dogs come in from theshelter and they stay until they
have a reason to leave, butevery six weeks we would rotate
them to a new handler.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Got it and where would the dogs be kept during
the overnights, or you know?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, so they were in our cells.
We had kennels and they wouldbe in our cells in kennels.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Wow, so you had a lot of time to bond with the dog
that was under your care.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
It was 24 hours a day , yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Was that the same case in bothfacilities or?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, the biggest difference in the second
facility was that they were.
The way that program was set up, I think, was even more clever,
because there was actuallyopportunities for the inmates to
earn a small amount ofcommission.
The program was stillself-sufficient, but we were
able to earn a little bit ofmoney which I was able to save
up and have something to startmy life over with when I left,
which was great.
But the biggest difference isthat the program is created so
that full-time trainers alwayshave bottom bunks, which is not
(12:38):
something that was evenconsidered in the other facility
and for many of the dogs at thesecond facility facility, the
owners really wanted us to betreating these dogs like they
were our dogs.
So these dogs were in our beds,they were sleeping in our bunks
with us.
That was a very like, veryintimate, very bond forming time
where and that's where Iactually, at the second facility
(13:00):
, I spent time at I had aregular dog that I had three
days a week for 18 months andevery time he boarded and I was
his groomer.
So talk about, you know,forming a relationship with a
dog.
He was very, very special to me.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
And the amount of purpose that must give you.
You know, to have something nowto focus on.
You know you had mentionedyou're going from sleeping 18
hours a day to trying all thesedifferent meds to finally
finding purpose.
Did you see that shift happenkind of overnight or did it take
some time from where you foundyourself in those first few days
(13:35):
to where you're flourishing andtaking time with these dogs and
getting being able to havepurpose?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, it definitely happened overnight, because it
had to, because that programagain was was designed to run
like a boot camp.
So the daily schedule five daysa week you're up, you go to
breakfast, you come back,starting at eight, there is a
50-minute long class on dogeducation some topic of dog
education.
(14:00):
Ten-minute break At nine,50-minute walk where we lined up
in like three separate linesand every dog and every person
is walking, whether you have adog or not, if you're, if you
don't have a dog, you're aspacer in between people that do
have dogs and you're practicingall of these skills that we're
talking about.
And then 10 minute break andthen at 10 am we would do what's
(14:20):
called a training circle.
We do a 20 minute trainingcircle where everyone circles up
with their dog heel.
Let's go have your dog sit,have your dog down, have your
dog wait, take two steps awayfrom your dog, call your dog to
you and praise, right, and justrunning, mechanics, mechanics,
mechanics.
And then it was lunch and thenit was repeat the same schedule
in the afternoon.
So that was the amount ofeducation, interaction, go, go,
(14:42):
structure.
There wasn't room to be like.
Is this for me?
Is this helping me?
It was like well, I'm here now,I'm in it and you are just in it
.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Wow, so tell me about how that helped you, or did it
help you, I should ask, withyour relationships with the
other inmates, because you allkind of now have this common
interest which is taking upsounds like quite a bit of your
day and your time and yourpurpose there.
Would you say that helped interms of talking to others,
(15:15):
relating to people again?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I hadn't thought about it.
But yeah, I think I reallystruggled over in the previous
housing situation I was in tofind ways to connect with people
because my first instinct wasto just retreat into myself and
hide.
And it's when you're afraid andyou're scared you're not going
to show parts of yourself to beable to make those connections.
(15:37):
But when you are all gatheredaround a really really clear
common interest, it's super easyto connect with people because
you just talk about dogs andit's funny that you say that,
like you know, you spend yourwhole day with them.
I formed an immediate bond withmy bunkie.
I formed an immediate bond withone of my other cellmates and I
(15:59):
remember for the first timebeing tired like at the end of
the day, not just, oh, I'm goingto sleep now, I'm going to
sleep because that's, that'swhat there is to do.
I'm exhausted.
My body, my brain, everythingis tired from an active and full
day.
It was a totally differentexperience and I remember
feeling like that was a lot andI'm really really tired, but
(16:22):
like this I can do lot and I'mreally really tired, but like
this I can do this.
I can get on board with andjust knowing right away that I
was in the right place for whereI was in that season of my life
.
That was the best place that Icould have been.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
So it was a good tired.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
It was a very good tired, you know.
I think that that's animportant, an important
distinction to make is like wehave these moments and we have
these activities that are goingto drain us in a good way, and
we have things that are going todrain us but it's going to be
okay, it's going to be good,Like going for a hike or going
to the gym, like you're tiredbut you feel good about that
tired.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yes, definitely, and you talk about.
On your website, too.
You actually use these words ofempowerment and accountability.
You know, and these thingswould you say you've learned
through that experience, or isit something you were always
thinking about throughout yourlife?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Or is it?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
tell me more about those words that you've kind of
chosen to use and some of yourabout me page.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
You know, the, the empowerment and the
accountability pieces are such abig part of my life today I
don't know that I've reallytaken the moment to pause and
connect that back to thatexperience.
But now that I am, I can seehow the type of training that I
(17:41):
do now and the way that I trainwith people working with them
virtually every single day it'sa lot like that because we're
getting that daily interaction,that daily insight into what's
happening.
You know, it's not aboutoversight, Whereas I think that
within the prison setting itinherently is going to be
supervision.
But I was forced into that dailyaccountability I had my
(18:02):
sergeant's dog If I wasn'ttaking his dog out to go to the
bathroom.
His office was right there hewas going to know.
Also, the structure of theprogram is such that there are
inmates in positions ofauthority and within that
program specifically, they havegiven that authority power in
the form of inmate to inmatereprimand, like a written
(18:26):
reprimand, and you get five ofthem in 90 days you're out and
it could be for not making yourbed right.
It could be because your shoesweren't tucked in.
It could be because your drawerwasn't closed or your lockbox
wasn't pushed in.
It could be for something assimple as they heard you say a
cuss word out on the yard andthat's against the additional
(18:46):
rule book that living in thatprogram comes with that.
The other, the generalpopulation of inmates they're
not held to those standards.
So I had roommates and bunkiesand friends that they weren't
there to tattle on me.
But if I was not doing my joband I was not caring for the
(19:07):
animal in my responsibility,somebody was going to know and
that was going to get back tosomebody who was going to write
me a report and I was going tohave to answer for that.
So it never came to that.
It did with others.
So, yeah, I think there was aforced accountability that now I
just see that as such anintegral part of my life, my
training of I ask people to holdme accountable for stuff all
(19:29):
the time.
If there's something that Iwant to make sure I'm going to
show up for and I think I mightstruggle with that then I need a
buddy, I need a partner, andthat's what I like to be for
people out there too.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
And, in a sense, when you think about it, that
accountability that you, thatwas kind of put on you in that
system, and when we think aboutthe word empowerment, which is
giving somebody the opportunitya dog or a person, the
opportunity to act on theirchoices right, they have choices
, they're empowered to makechoices, to act on their
environment.
Can you talk about that sort ofdichotomy and how you see it
(20:03):
kind of fit into your trainingthat you do today?
So you had just mentioned, youknow you like when people hold
you accountable to your trainingand to the tasks that you have
on hand, but on the opposite end, we have empowerment, which is
giving the person theopportunity to be accountable, I
guess.
So what do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I think I can look back at that experience not just
being in the dog program butjust being incarcerated in
general as the ultimate exampleof having no choices, no agency,
no control over my own life.
I was told what to wear, whatto eat, when to be where, and
(20:43):
when you're in it you don'treally know anything else, nor
did I have an option foranything else.
But now the way that thataffects the way that I train
dogs is just coming at it from aperson who knows what it's like
to have their agency and voicetaken.
(21:04):
I had absolutely no say in whatwas going on around me other
than trying to get myself intothis program, and I think that
there is a huge correlationbetween when I look around the
industry because I also was in avery weird opportunity, very
weird space to be able to comeout and kind of have fresh eyes
(21:26):
on this industry that I'd neverbeen a part of and I see a lot
of correlation betweenmethodology and the way that the
trainers are going to interactwith their client dogs and the
degree to which they know whatit's like to experience that, to
have their voice taken, to havetheir agency taken, to be able
to empathize with an animalpotentially in that situation.
(21:49):
Now, again in that setting andin that situation seven, eight
years ago now, I didn't havethat lens.
Like I can now reflect onmoments where there were dogs
that I thought were beingrehabilitated, that were being
taught new skills, and they wereabsolutely shut down and
(22:10):
absolutely in a state of learnedhelplessness and there wasn't
really any learning happening.
And I think that that'sprobably also what I was
experiencing was.
You know, this is kind of myonly option and my only choice.
So this is what I'm going to do, and so I choose not not to use
that in my training.
I choose not to only give onechoice and one option.
I don't want the dogs that Iwork with or the people that I
(22:32):
work with to only make decisionsbased on fear of repercussion.
That's just not the way that Ichoose to operate, because it
makes me really uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Absolutely.
And when you think about therestrictions our society places
on dogs right and in someextreme examples which you might
even draw parallels to solitaryconfinement in some situations
we have dogs in shelter systemsand other confinement, long-term
confinement I should say thatis solitary, they don't have
(23:03):
access to many other people ifmore than one person per day and
no other dogs.
And when you think about thedetriment to their behavioral
health I'll call it and you canlook at those parallels.
So do you draw upon that too,like just how much confinement
you might see in your client'sdogs and empathize with that and
try to immediately startlooking at giving that
(23:26):
empowerment, giving more choices, really changing up the
environment for that dog in away that also if let's say it is
an aggression case or somethingand that's where the dog has to
be safely contained in someaspects.
But can you talk me throughmore of that and your thought
process there or your thoughtson it in general?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well, when I have a client who has a dog whose world
is very small, for whateverreason, I think we have to look
at why those are in place, right?
Is it because the dog isterrified of the outside world?
Is it because the dog poses asafety risk when they're in the
outside world?
And then it's just a matter ofcoming up with a plan.
(24:06):
There's always plans to safelytake steps forward period.
There's always ways toimplement more management
practice, practice, practice andthen take steps forward, even
if they feel really small andinsignificant.
They add up just that 1% eachday, right?
Like, okay, you may only beable to get onto your front
porch with a muzzle and a leash,but that's that much further
(24:28):
than you were last week, andyeah.
So I think there's a hugeamount of empowerment there.
And I think it's what's mostimportant to the success of that
type of training is building upthe human's confidence in their
own abilities and helping themfeel ready, because that's what
really matters is that they canmentally be prepared for that
(24:51):
moment.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
CB.
And just to go back a littlebit too, you had mentioned you
don't want the animal to feellike the only way to learn is
because of ramifications orrepercussions for their behavior
.
So is that something you reallygrew into or something with
your training?
So, in terms of the prison dogtraining methodology, in terms
(25:14):
of your experiences there, didyou find yourself like come on
out the gate, I'm like all right, that's my thing, Like I'm not
going to train dogs with anykind of corrections.
It's going to be.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh gosh, no, I've been all over.
I've been all over the boardwith that.
So, looking at the twodifferent facilities and the two
different trainers that I guessI apprenticed under in those
contexts the first one throughreflection I can see it was a
compulsion trainer and thesecond one was definitely more
(25:43):
reward based.
But there was probably somebalanced elements in that.
I think.
Looking back, when I was firstreleased from prison, I was
operating as absolutely abalanced trainer.
I did not start as a rewardsbased trainer or even using any
of the really approaches I usetoday.
I was also at that point doingmore obedience work, which I
(26:04):
think is where you see a lot ofthe copy and paste, balanced
models, because they work andthey can show really efficient
results in some dogs.
So people get really excitedabout that, about, oh, look at
what I can teach this dog superquickly.
And it took somebody who lovedme enough to be brave enough to
(26:28):
say to me Madison, efficiency isnot enough, it's not enough.
I know who said that to me.
She was.
She's a very, very dear friendof mine and I still remember it
today that she floated that ideaby me that I was delivering
something to people and it wasvaluable, it wasn't enough.
It wasn't zooming out to lookat the whole picture that was
(26:52):
happening.
So I think that was a bigturning point for me was when I
was released and I started toget really curious about what
was out there and just startededucating myself from everything
across the board, from e-collartraining in particular, because
that was something that wedidn't have access to, that.
So I came out into the worldlike what is this modern tool
and just wanted to learn andunderstand it.
(27:14):
And then I really dove intoother animals because I thought
there was a lot to be to belearned in just animal training
in general.
And I think that is whatilluminated so many of the flaws
in my previous logic intraining, because with other
animals you don't get away withthe same stuff that apparently
we're getting away with trainingdogs.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah.
So it sounds like this paradigmshift was really precipitated
by this person.
Helping you say, with theefficiency is not enough, and
would you say that yourexperiences again in
incarceration and the systemthat's in place there where
there are repercussions, butthey're also giving you what we
might say is a positivereinforcer.
We're giving you something tolook forward to and to reinforce
(27:59):
desirable behavior in thehumans that are there and the
population that's there.
So in a sense, if we were todraw that parallel, it's kind of
not an exact parallel, but ifwe're looking at that system
it's sort of a balanced approachto behavior change.
But then you are released andyou get into the dog training
world and you mentioned you hadsome sort of.
(28:20):
You were starting out asbalanced, I guess if you were to
label yourself but thatparadigm has shifted for you to
a reward-based strategy, wouldyou say you've had some of that.
Past experience has influencedalso your shift to what it is
today.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that when I look at myexperience as a learner in that
prison dog training program, thepotential repercussion of being
released back out into generalpopulation yeah, that that would
have been an aversive situationfor me.
So I did everything I could toavoid it.
(28:55):
But that to me was that to mewas more a natural consequence
of my environment.
That wasn't.
It wasn't as much like asergeant coming in and writing a
ticket and immediately puttingme out in population.
That to me, would be like aswift punishment.
This, to me, was a naturalconsequence of the environment
(29:17):
and that's something where I dothink I guess my background as
as a balanced or more, you know,aversive style of trainer.
(29:38):
I think it gives me a lens tobe able to look for the
consequences that exist, whetherwe want to acknowledge them or
not, you know, because the worlddoes provide consequences to us
, to our dogs.
There's, there's always goingto be natural consequences and I
think that we need to be muchmore critically looking at those
and using them to our benefitor, at the very least, making
sure they're not working againstus.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Interesting.
I would love to jump more intowhat you're just saying there,
but what we're going to do istake a quick break so we can
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All right, we're back here withMadison.
We've been talking about prisondog training programs as well as
all of the benefits that havecome out of this story for
(32:58):
Madison and the changes not onlyin her life but also in her
training style, and we'retalking about balance training
versus rewards-based trainingearlier and how it's shifted in
your what you were doingpreviously to what you're doing
now.
And you know, I love that we'redrawing on these parallels
because I think there's so muchwe can learn from changing
(33:20):
behavior, whether it's in humansor dogs.
So you had mentioned also, youknow, some of the work you do
now is with rescues or shelters,or you're getting dogs that
your clients.
They get a dog from a rescueand I'm guessing that there's a
way that you explain things toclients to help them understand
(33:40):
what their dog's been through,especially if coming from a
background where their behaviorwas not fit for society.
Right, for lack of a betterphrase.
But let's say they didsomething, they bit somebody or
they did something that societywould deem as not acceptable,
right?
Do you ever use those analogies, or do you ever talk more to
your clients about it?
(34:01):
Because I know it's not alsosomething you're like probably
advertising to your clients, butlike where your past right.
So do you kind of put in someparallels there, or do you even
want to like have some thoughtson that?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Well, I made a conscious decision over a year
ago to at the very least, takeback my story and own my
narrative, and I changed mybranding completely.
So my brand is freed bytraining.
There's barbed wire on it.
I'm not trying to hide anythinganymore.
That was a part of my life thatI wanted to step away from.
(34:33):
I was really feeling a lot ofshame and I could have stayed
living in that forever, and Ichose to step out of it.
So it is far more public now andin the last six months or so
than I think it's ever been whenit comes to discussing dogs'
pasts, especially in the contextof past and their oh and their
(34:54):
troubled beginnings, and I thinkthat there's very little value
(35:16):
there in terms of creating astrategy forward.
Now, if there's been anexperience that's happened that
they're totally aware of, ithappened while the dog was in
their care.
It happened while they knew thedog.
They have information on that.
That's different.
The dog they have informationon that.
That's different.
(35:36):
In that case, I think it's lessabout teaching them to
empathize with a creature makinga bad decision, because that's
how I feel.
I feel like I'm a good person.
I made a bad choice With dogs.
I think it's more about, inthat moment, again, doing the
opposite, taking away a littlebit of that, that empathy, and
helping them understand thatbehavior is not yes, it's
(35:57):
emotionally fueled, but behavioris a reflection of a function
and there's a reason that thatbehavior was present, and
getting more curious about thatand focusing more on what
management can we put in place.
Yes, we want to be looking atwhat could have possibly caused
and contributed that so we canunderstand it.
(36:19):
But I don't think I frequentlyhave to have the conversation
with people about forgivingtheir dog or rehabilitating
their dog.
I do confidently tell you knowmost of the people that I work
with yeah, I do think your dogcan be fixed or rehabilitated or
whatever, whatever languagethey use to me, you know, can
this problem be solved?
Can I get to the solution?
(36:40):
Yeah, yeah, you can.
Are you willing to show up?
Are you willing to, you know,look at the timeline and
acknowledge that that's notgoing to be in your control.
Okay, cool, yeah, we can dothis.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Love it All right.
So I want to jump back tosomething you had said before,
because I think it's aninteresting topic that we should
dive more into, which is youmentioned something about
learning in a microcosm, or youhad limitations on the amount of
information available to you,and even when you were released,
there's still limitations, andsometimes we get into our one
(37:11):
lane and it's hard to step outof that lane when we're given
information in a microcosm,because we tend to find the same
information, especially ifwe're on social media or any
other way that the algorithmsare feeding you the same thing.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Speaker 2 (37:25):
When I was in the institution.
I think that was the ultimatemicrocosm, because the dog
training education that we hadwas photocopies of photocopies,
and what we had printed out andhanded to us was fact and then
we were tested on it too.
So you knew it was true andthey could have told us every
dog had five legs and it wouldhave been right there right Now.
(37:47):
I know that they didn't.
They didn't do that.
They didn't intentionally giveus false information, but there
are certainly there wascertainly information within
that that is probably notrelevant anymore that I maybe
wouldn't agree with at thispoint.
So I do think it's incrediblydangerous to only be taking in
information from one source.
(38:08):
Like I said, I think it'simportant to look at other
species.
I think it's important to lookat other species.
I think it's important to lookat other industries and
practices.
My past life as a businessperson studying business there's
so much about business andmanagement and efficiency that
has impacted my dog training ina good way.
There's so much that I'velearned and picked up in therapy
(38:29):
that has made me a better dogtrainer.
I feel that by finally actuallyconnecting with the right
therapist and being able tounderstand my nervous system and
the impacts that it wasexperiencing my nervous system
and the impact that panicattacks were having on my
nervous system, I couldimmediately see parallels to
(38:51):
dogs.
Now I'm not saying that everyreactive dog or fearful dog is
having a panic attack.
What I am saying is there'sbeen a moment that I've looked
at a dog in distress and it justhit me like I've been there, I
feel that that look of panic intheir eyes and feeling so
emotionally out of control inthat moment and feeling like I
(39:13):
couldn't be responsible for myphysical actions, like that's
really scary and frustrating.
So I think it did give me someempathy to dogs with these big,
big emotions and big behaviorsthat that come along with it.
And along the journey oflearning how to regulate dog
nervous systems through variousfunnels there I was also
(39:34):
learning how to regulate my ownnervous system.
I have a brain for patterns.
I've always had a brain forpatterns.
When I'm having a panic attackI do like Fibonacci's in my head
.
I love the Fibonacci sequence.
So something really repetitiveand logical is my go-to skill
set when I am pre-panic attackor in a panic attack.
(39:55):
And when I saw the parallelsbetween that and between food
pattern games with dogs.
For example, it was just thisexploding head emoji moment of
we can teach ourselves skillsand then teach it to our dog,
and it was so cool.
It's such a great skill to haveand to be able to actually
(40:15):
watch it get put into action.
Something as simple as countingcan be beneficial to both dogs
and people.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Yeah, so it sounds like through your journey here
you know you've again going backto the first part of your story
.
We're sleeping 18 hours a day.
There's no purpose.
You just just like, all right,I'm going to sleep, just to
sleep, to learning about theprison dog program, to being
(40:42):
released and really broadeninghow you're learning, it sounds
like as well.
So you get out of thesemicrocosms, you start to expand
into not only just training, butyou mentioned other animals and
your own therapy and how muchis applied to dog training.
Where in that did you see thatreally occur?
Like you know, was it when youwere just released?
You're like, wait a second.
Now I've got this new lease onlife and I've got all of these
learning opportunities.
Why not just take in everything?
(41:03):
I can soak it up like a sponge.
Was there like some point orsome epiphany or somebody saying
something, some conversation?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So there was an epiphany and it was because I
didn't want to train dogs.
I came out of prison convincedI was going to go back to
corporate America, and that'swhat I did.
I got a contract position.
I got a 12-month contractworking with a huge company
doing corporate communications,making really good money, which
I didn't even expect to bemaking right out the gate, but I
was.
Also, I had gotten a job at adaycare a dog daycare while I
was waiting for things toprocess, making $9 an hour, and
(41:39):
through that I started taking onsome training clients because
why not?
I've got the skill.
They needed some help, why not?
Well, it got to a point I wasbasically working two full-time
jobs.
At that point I was working39.75 hours on the contract job
doing the corporate gig, andthen I was training dogs and
there was something really emptyin my daily work.
(41:59):
I felt that I was doingsomething that anyone who could
navigate PowerPoint could do andit felt really meaningless,
like it felt like what I wasdoing didn't matter and that was
really sad.
But then in the evenings and onthe weekends I'm out training
dogs and helping people andseeing the impact and see and
(42:22):
like people are thanking me andjust really grateful.
And I'm seeing the change and Icouldn't do it anymore.
I couldn't continue leadingthese two lives one that felt
really fulfilled, one that feltreally fulfilled and one that
felt really, really forced.
So I left the 12 month contractsix months in and had, all
honestly, all the support in theworld from my immediate boss.
It was just, you know, don'texpect to come back, but, but
(42:44):
we're really really happy foryou and it was really scary and
there were a lot of missteps,certainly when I first started
training full time.
But I'm really really happy nowwith what I'm doing, with my
life, and I would never want togo back to just having a job
that I did to get a paycheck,which was exactly what I was
(43:06):
doing.
I don't think I could.
I genuinely don't think I could.
I think it would be intolerableto me at this point, because I
wake up with a fire in my chestevery single day.
That just makes it pretty easyfor me to get through my workday
and to get through what I'mdoing, because I love it that
much.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Yes, and clearly you're a shining example of
prison dog programs and thebenefits of them, so let's talk
more about that as well.
You had mentioned a couple ofdifferent programs, but can you
give me a rundown, more of whatyou know about the different
programs out there and thebenefits that you're seeing, and
talk us through some of that aswell?
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Absolutely.
They have so many benefits toboth the human and animal
populations here in our country.
And I say in our country, and Isay in our country and I think
that's really important to lookat as well, because the United
States incarcerates at aninsanely high volume compared to
anywhere else in the world andit's because it is not entirely,
(44:07):
but in many instances, afor-profit structure.
Many of these institutions areprivate institutions.
They are for-profit and theyget a big fat check for every
single inmate that walks in thedoor.
That's why you see inmatessentenced to prison, not jail,
prison time for 22 days.
We as inmates call that a pettyfelony when they're literally
(44:29):
just sending you there where itcould have been classified as a
misdemeanor.
But it was instead classifiedas a felony in order to get more
profits into the prison systems.
And we won't go into thecorrelation there between those
individuals and the judges andthe justice department.
But there are so many benefitsto these programs.
When you look at the recidivismrate and recidivism is how
(44:52):
likely is an inmate, somebodywho has been convicted of a
felony, sent to a prison, hasbeen incarcerated, they've been
released.
How likely are they tore-offend and the impact that
these programs have on therecidivism rate.
I don't have the numbers, but Iknow that it's substantial.
I know that it's making a hugedifference.
(45:13):
Zach Scow in California with thePositive Change Program is a
really, really well-knownprogram that does just this does
these prison dog programs on alarger scale than anything I've
seen.
It's used in multipleinstitutions and the other thing
that this is doing on top ofreducing recidivism, on top of
increasing productivity justwithin the inmate population and
(45:34):
improving lives and bringing aservice to the state employees
who are like, oh my gosh, I canboard my dog for $40 for a week,
that's great and have an inmatetrainer training that dog full
time, like there's so manybenefits to the people.
But we can also reduce theshelter populations.
The fact that we are paying wetaxpayers are paying to house
(46:01):
both humans and animals inseparate facilities across our
country is silly when they canbe housed together and we can
save a lot of money and we cangive people purpose and I just
think that there's a lot to bedone for our communities by
tying these two things together,where there's such an untapped
resource within the inmates.
I'm going to tell you this likefrom a first person perspective.
We do not feel taken advantageof in those programs, are we
(46:24):
Maybe?
Maybe In the ones where there'sno money coming to you?
Maybe, but we don't feel thatbecause the alternative is worse
.
The alternative is still notseeing money, but also not
having a purpose, but also nothaving something to really make
the experience worthwhile.
And I know that that soundsbackwards, but there were so
(46:47):
many times while I wasincarcerated that somebody came
to speak to us and was like thisdoesn't have to be a waste.
This doesn't have to be fiveyears gone, 10 years gone.
This doesn't have to be well,it's just done for me.
There are second chances, thereare opportunities to step into
a new life and I really want tobe gosh, not the poster child
(47:11):
for anything.
But it doesn't matter.
It really doesn't matter whereyou came from.
It really doesn't matter if youwere incarcerated or if you had
an addiction or if you werehomeless.
It doesn't matter where you camefrom.
You are able to help people andif you can work through what
(47:31):
you've been through and releasethat fear of vulnerability,
you're going to be able to meetpeople where they're at in a way
that probably nobody else can.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
That's really well said, and I appreciate you
sharing that insight, becauseit's things that we need to
think about much more, and I'mreally glad you're bringing this
to the forefront and talkingabout it more.
So, yeah, thank you for sharingthat, and I think that's a good
way to wrap up, but before wedo, I'd like to know what you're
working on next and wherepeople can find you.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Well, I see clients, virtually client dogs.
That is using the in my opinion, revolutionary.
That is using the in my opinion, revolutionary, necessary model
of daily, daily training, dailyvirtual training.
I said accountability, butthere's also a ton of
empowerment.
The empowerment piece is thatyou don't need me to train your
dog, you don't, you're enoughfor your dog and you know a
(48:27):
trainer can help you get there.
But I don't want owners,guardians, to be told you're not
enough for your dog.
I don't want to be putting thatmessage out in the world.
I also have a behaviormentorship for other trainers
who have been through some typeof initial education on like
core learning theory and theywant to learn more about
behavior change and the emotionsunderneath of it.
(48:49):
And I also have some businessresources coming out for other
dog trainers.
So you can find all of that atwwwfreedbytrainingcom.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Excellent, madison.
Thank you so much.
We'll be sure to link to allthose links in the show notes,
as usual, and I hope to see youagain in the future.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Thanks, mike.
I really appreciate youallowing me to tell my story in
this way and talk about thingsthat I've been wanting to talk
about, but I think it's hardsometimes to start this
conversation, so I reallyappreciate you being really
curious about these programs andwhat we can learn from them
(49:33):
accountability, redemption,empowerment and empathy with me.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Dogs can have such a profound and positive impact on
the lives of humans, and I'msure Madison agrees.
Please consider supporting yourlocal prison dog training
program, as they often rely ondonations from fellow animal
lovers like yourself.
And don't forget to head onover to aggressivedogcom for
more information about helpingdogs with aggression from the
Aggression and Dogs MasterCourse to webinars from
world-renowned experts and evenan annual conference.
(49:57):
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression and dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression cases, such as
resource guarding, dog-to-dogaggression, territorial
aggression, fear-basedaggression and much, much more.
(50:18):
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.
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