Transforming Lives: Helping Dogs with Trauma - Featuring Caroline Alupo

Unlock the secrets to understanding and treating trauma in dogs with our special guest, Caroline Alupo, an authority in dog behavior and canine trauma. Caroline breaks down the similarities and differences between human and canine trauma, highlighting common symptoms like hyper-vigilance and avoidance behaviors, while explaining why traditional training methods might fall short in addressing these issues.

ABOUT CAROLINE:

"My name is Caroline Alupo, and I am a dog behaviorist and ethologist. In addition to a master's degree in ethology, I have 19 years of experience helping anxious and reactive dogs find peace. 

I am passionate about coaching dog parents to gain a deeper understanding of their dogs and gladly share training techniques that enable dog parents to help their dogs towards positive interactions and balance.

The methods taught are scientifically grounded, positive and prioritize the dog's self-esteem and trust in you as a dog parent."

• Trained dog behaviorist with many years of continuing education.
• Masters degree in ethology
• 19 years of work experience in the dog industry
• Trained decoy dog in service.

http://www.petli.app/
http://www.carolinealupo.se/

Limited time offer! The Aggression in Dogs Master Course and Expert Webinar Bundle! Only 50 will be made available.
https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/bundles/the-aggression-in-dogs-master-course-and-expert-webinar-bundle-2024

Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com

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The Aggression in Dogs Conference

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
In this episode we explore the topic of trauma in
dogs and how it can impactaggression.
It's another topic I'm reallyglad to see being discussed more
in the dog training community,as trauma can have a significant
impact on how we approachhelping dogs in need.
Caroline Alupo joins me todiscuss what trauma is, the
similarities and differencesbetween trauma in dogs and

(00:26):
humans, and what we can do tohelp dogs that may have
experienced trauma.
Caroline specializes inaggression of various kinds and
post-traumatic stress syndromein dogs.
She has a master's degree inethology and is a certified dog
behaviorist and dog trainer.
Caroline co-founded the dog appPetly and is a speaker at

(00:47):
universities and academicinstitutions across Sweden and
beyond.
And if you're enjoying the biteyend of the dog, you can support
the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in

(01:08):
Scottsdale, arizona, with bothin-person and online options.
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training

(01:29):
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
in dogs.
Hey everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.
This week I have a very specialguest, because we're going to
be talking about post-traumaticstress disorder in dogs PTSD

(01:51):
which is something we haven'treally talked about on the show.
So I'm excited to introduceCarolyn Alupo.
Welcome, carolyn.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Hi, Mike, and thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yes, let's jump right into this topic because we have
a lot of listeners for havingme.
Yes, let's jump right into thistopic because we have a lot of
listeners, a very broad range oflisteners, and some are deeply
entrenched into this topic andsome may have just started
hearing about it in dogs.
So can you kind of define whatPTSD is in dogs, just for this
general sake of defining thisfirst with a discussion?

Speaker 2 (02:22):
PTSD stands for post-traumatic stress disorder,
so it's really an anxietydisorder that dogs can get after
experience like a traumaticevent.
It could be really anythingwhere the dog has feared for his
or her life and developed fearsthat have gotten stuck.
It's like they're stuck in thisnightmare and they keep being
reminded repeatedly of whateverthey've experienced and they've

(02:45):
been changed after this incidentto their core really and they
can fear the whole world or justpeople or dogs, depending on
what they've experienced.
But in short, it's an anxietydisorder after a traumatic event
.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
What are some of the signs that dogs experience?
You know we'll get more intothat I think into the nuts and
bolts and the details of it butjust some of the you know
initial signs that a dog mighthave experienced that or has
PTSD, or we would give thatdiagnosis to.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Common signs are hypervigilance and an increased
arousal after this event, aswell as trigger reactions
arousal after this event as wellas trigger reactions.
So these dogs, they associatedifferent things, different
stimuli, as triggers related tothe actual trauma event and
they'll be actively trying toavoid those triggers.

(03:36):
They will really elicit fear oranger in the dog when the dog
is subjected or experiencesthese triggers.
So that's very common symptomsand sometimes these dogs also
have other secondary symptomslike gastrointestinal issues and
sleep disturbances etc.
Depression for instance.
So quite common to what a humanwith PTSD would experience.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, and in that regard there's been some debates
and I've seen someconversations about.
You know how can you assign ahuman disorder to dogs and how
do we know if dogs are trulyexperiencing that?
So what's your argument forthat?

Speaker 2 (04:16):
I think it's a valid point.
You know it really is.
When I did my study I took theDSM scale you know the
diagnostic tool for differentmental health disorders in
humans and I looked at PTSD andI thought, like how can we apply
this to dogs?
Can we even apply this to dogs?
And I had quite a critical eyewhen I looked at this scale and

(04:38):
I tried to take out whatdiagnostic criteria we actually
could use for dogs, and a few ofthem I had to take away, like
nightmares or flashbacks,anything where I couldn't.
You know.
I can't ask a dog are youexperiencing flashbacks or are
you seeing, you know, scenesfrom the trauma event or are you
dreaming about the traumaticevent?

(04:58):
I can't ask a dog that.
So all of that had to be takenaway.
But the interesting thing wasthat in each diagnostic category
there's like four differentdiagnostic categories for PTSD
and in each category on thehuman side, you don't have to
actually have all the symptomsin each category to have PTSD.
So when I took out the onesthat we can't really apply to

(05:22):
dogs, I still had enough to workwith to use it as a diagnostic
tool for dogs.
But I think the criticism isvalid and it's important always
to be very critical, you know.
But we mustn't forget that dogsand humans our limbic system is
very similar.
I mean dogs are sentient beingswith a very complex emotional

(05:43):
life.
So to me, after knowing dogs mywhole life and working with
troubled dogs for over 18 years,to me it's obvious in a way
that they as well can experiencethis kind of difficult anxiety
disorder as we can.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, and you make a really great point in your paper
about translational studies andyou know what we're using
animals to study for.
You know for human behavior anddiagnosing things, but we
sometimes, for whatever reason,don't do it the other way around
.
But it totally makes sense.
You know, why can't we takehuman studies and apply it to
animals if we're doing theopposite?

(06:22):
So yeah, so I want to talk alittle bit more about the
diagnosis of PTSD in dogs.
You've mentioned some of thesymptoms we should look for, but
can we dive deeper into that?
You know things like theintrusion symptoms and avoidance
, and can you talk more aboutwhat we should be looking for?
Let's say it's a pet owner orpet guardian or a trainer or

(06:42):
consultant looking to assignthis term to a dog.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, I think, foremost, we have to have like a
clear cut incident and we haveto have a pre picture of the dog
, in sense of the dog'swellbeing, and a post picture of
the dog.
You know, this incident in themiddle, something that has
happened, and we can start bylooking at that incident.
Was it unpredictable for thedog?
Could the dog have feared forhis or her life or feared for

(07:10):
really bad injury?
If so, we have a risk of PTSD.
And then we also want to lookat you know, was this dog a
happy-go-lucky dog before thisincident happened and afterwards
?
Do we have hyper arousal or anincreased vigilance?
Do we have trigger reactions,fear responses, startle

(07:31):
responses, for instance,stress-related behaviors and an
avoidance of triggers, bothprimary and secondary triggers,
that could be associated to thistraumatic event?
If all those things are therethere, then we can start to
wonder could this dog have PTSD?
And that's all we can do.
We can't really know.

(07:52):
We don't have to chase and huntdown the diagnosis and the term
PTSD, but we can always lookthat yeah, this is a dog that we
suspect have PTSD.
There's no need to be 100% sure, because we cannot be 100% sure
, of course, as we cannot askthe dog anything.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, and so in a sense we're recognizing the dog
is in real need of care for thatparticular incident, in a sense
of helping them move forwardbecause we're seeing all these
signs and symptoms.
So your point about notactually having to officially
label it is also valid and Ithink that's important to
remember because we often seedogs going through some

(08:33):
difficult times.
Although I will say I thinkit's also probably helpful Would
you find this helpful forguardians to be able to assign a
term and it allows them toempathize more with their dogs.
If they maybe empathize to PTSD,maybe they know somebody or
they've experienced itthemselves and they might if
they know their dog has thesimilar diagnosis, do you think

(08:55):
that would help them empathizemore or relate to their dog more
?

Speaker 2 (09:00):
I think it can go both ways.
I think some people when theyrealize oh, my dog possibly has
PTSD, they take the symptomsmore seriously and they
understand the Dr Jekyll and MrHyde tendencies and they see how
okay my dog ticks all theseboxes and I truly understand,

(09:23):
you know, how severe this mentalillness is for my dog and
that's a good thing.
Some people open up and thinkabout you know medication as a
help for the treatment planwhich they might not have
considered without this kind ofdiagnosis.
So I think that that's, youknow, a good outcome.
The backside is if a dog ownerjust lands in the PTSD diagnosis

(09:50):
and lose, you know, theactionability and loses its
force to help this dog and justkind of settles with my dog is a
PTSD dog, I can't do much aboutthe situation we're in or the
symptoms my dog is sufferingfrom and that's a shame.
In that sense I don't like theeffect of the diagnosis.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, that's such an interesting point too, because
it makes you realize just howpowerful labels can be, and how
we have to be careful about them.
Yeah, so I want to back up alittle bit too.
You were talking about primaryand secondary triggers and you
have some very specific examplesin your paper that talk about
what has happened to a dog thatreally had that traumatic effect

(10:31):
on them.
One of them attacked by a drunkman and then suddenly now the
dog is worried about drunkpeople, which makes sense.
Are men making eye contact,loud voices in crowds as sort of
secondary triggers, making eyecontact, loud voices in crowds
as sort of secondary triggers?
And another really interestingone, attacked by a wolf in the
forest right.
So that is not very common, I'msure for most people listening

(10:52):
in, but wolf-like dogs, thescent of the wolf forest on
familiar dogs.
Another one was a I thinkthere's some harsh training with
a prong collar that strung upby a prong collar at the
groomers, and now of course, thedog is concerned about prong
collars, people in general, allcollars groomers being harshly
grabbed and things that ofcourse surround the groomers

(11:14):
setting clippers, brushes,tables.
So how, I guess?
My question here is do we knowthe incidents in these cases?
So when somebody, let's say,recently adopted a dog and
they're seeing these things,maybe the dog feeling out of
character, in a sense of thequote unquote average dog in a

(11:36):
particular setting, let's saygetting into a car, for instance
, and the dog really panics,just getting into the car shows
all these symptoms you weretalking about.
Would we know the difference?
Would be able to say this doghas trauma because of some
previous incident or this, thisdog has just never been in a car
.
Can we tell the difference?
So do we always need to have abaseline of what that dog's

(11:57):
behavior was like before?

Speaker 2 (11:58):
a particular incident ?
It's a good question.
I mean, I work with a lot ofrescue dogs that clearly have
PTSD, according to thisdiagnostic tool from my study.
But we do not know what hascaused the PTSD, we just know
it's there.
It's very obvious because ofthe secondary and the primary
triggers and the avoidance andthe hypervigilance and the
arousal and the sleepdisturbance and the

(12:21):
gastrointestinal issues, etcetera, et etc.
Etc.
And like a depressed kind oflow state.
But I also work with rescue dogs, like you say, mike, that just
are not used to going in a caror unfamiliar with, with you
know, a lot of different kind ofpeople men or kids or other
dogs or cats and they're justnot, you know, used to it.

(12:44):
And often with those dogs we cansee a high level of fright or a
high level of aggression ifthey choose to act out on their
fright.
But with some operantconditioning and with some
training we often see that, okay, the dog has helped and slowly
but surely the dog feels moresafe and secure around cats or

(13:06):
sheep or horses or whatever itis, or the car, for instance,
and we see a progression withoutyou know a holistic plan to
help the dog forward.
We're just actually practicingthe car and doing it below the
threshold for stress and we'regiving the dog, you know, the
possibility to back out of thetraining situation and say,
please, I want to try some more.

(13:27):
And we're just doing thatslowly over time and see that
the dog actually gets moresecure and is able to go in the
car again.
Then we do not have ptsd.
It was just an insecurityaround the car and a fright
around cars.
So there's a big difference andit's very obvious when you meet
these dogs that it's.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
It's not the same thing at all and most of it is
based on the observations ofwhat we're trying is not working
.
So I'd love to talk more aboutthat in dogs that have
experienced trauma, where thelearning ability for lack of a
better description is is reallyimpacted.
So can you talk more about that?
What's happening, you know.
You know with the resiliencyand the or not being able to

(14:08):
adapt as we would like to thesituation or make the changes
we're often used to seeing, likein that rescue dog that maybe
has never been in a car, versusone that maybe was in a car
accident that was very traumatic, and how difficult it sometimes
can be and why that happens.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yeah, I can take an example.
I met a dog the other day, adog that when I just looked at
the paper before I actually metthe dog when the actual booking
came in, I was like this must bea PTSD dog.
It was a rescue dog that hadbeen in a lot of different homes
and had been really harshlyhandled.
And when I met the dog, however, I was like, wow, this is not a
PTSD dog.

(14:45):
This dog is scared, it's gotissues, it's got stress related
behaviors that we need toaddress, but there's no PTSD.
That self healing motor, thatmechanism was completely intact.
When we trigger trained, thedog chose to back out and do
like a stress relief and choseto play to be able to move from

(15:07):
kind of a hard feeling to alighter one, and it was doing
this on on her own.
She was like really working thetherapy on her own.
A PTSD dog doesn't do that.
They need a lot of help toactually get that stress release
and not bottle up or not shutdown.
So that's a huge differencereally.
And the dogs that say, forinstance, the car drive, say a

(15:30):
dog has been in a car accidentjust trying to guide that dog
closer to a car using a treatand just slowly, bit by bit, day
by day, trying to get the dogto go closer to the car.
That won't really help.
It won't get us anywhere andoften with a PTS dog, the risk
of re-traumatizing and the riskof overexposure.

(15:53):
It's so easily done so withthat classical kind of you know
counter-conditional training.
It's just too much for them.
We won't reach our goal.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
So that's a big difference really it's just too
much for them, we won't reachour goal.
So that's a big difference,really, yeah, so let's talk more
about that.
So, when we are trying thingsthat we typically would do for a
dog that has not experienced itat the trauma level, what other
changes can we do?
Are we looking at medications?
Do you work a lot inconjunction with veterinary
behaviors or veterinarians thatcan prescribe meds?
Are there other things that weshould be aware of with these

(16:25):
dogs?

Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, I mean the first thing I want to do is
really map out all the triggersthe dog has.
Is it just the car?
I mean that to me sounds likein this case, where there's been
a car accident, sounds like abig primary trigger.
That's not where I want tostart the training.
So I want to map out all theprimary triggers and I also want
to map out the secondarytriggers, which could be like,

(16:46):
you know, a car braking or thesound of a car rolling in the
gravel or honking of the horn orsomebody just grabbing the car
keys.
Those could be secondarytriggers and I want to start
with those triggers.
But before I even get totrigger training I mean that
could be months down the line Ireally want to look at where is
this dog here and today it'slike a person with PTSD.

(17:07):
That's been, you know, burningthe candle at both ends.
There's no energy left.
There's there's, you know, thesleep is disturbed and and the
nutrition and the food isn'treally, you know, passing
through and the nutritionsaren't taken up as they should.
So I just want to leave triggertraining until I have a more
balanced individual in front ofme.
So sleep is really important,regular and deep sleep,

(17:30):
especially for these dogs.
And I also want to look at thepillars of load, like how much
is this dog exercised, how muchis this dog trained, what is the
chemical load and the emotionalload and how can we lower these
pillars so we get a morebalanced dog.
Some dogs I work with now theyget way too much exercise for

(17:51):
being a PTSD dog.
So we're burning the candle inboth heads.
So really just helping themsettle and relax, get sleep, get
good nutrition and after thatand I spent quite a lot of time
doing that I want to help thesedogs remember their good old
days, their fun times andwhether we're happy-go-lucky and

(18:13):
do things that makes them feelsecure and courageous and safe.
So I really coach my dog ownersto do a lot of that before we
even get to the trigger training.
During that time we want tomake sure that the environment
they live in is as trigger-freeas possible and that they have

(18:33):
really clear routines, dailyroutines, so that the loss of
predictability and the loss ofcontrol that happened in the
trauma incident we want to givethat back to their dog so they
should wake up every morning andknow exactly when they get fed,
exactly when they get the boneand exactly when they get to go
for a walk and where they aretaken for a walk.
So you know all the adventuresand you know we just reduce that

(18:56):
completely, take that away.
So their life needs to be verypredictable because these dogs
they wake up and they expect thesky to fall down on them every
single second and they oftenfear for their life on a daily
basis and one needs tounderstand that and help them
feel secure, first of all,before trigger training can even

(19:18):
be on the agenda.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
And you mentioned a really important point which is
ensuring proper sleep, kind ofreally looking at things from a
holistic level.
First, get a good foundation tothe house before we start
building walls and picking outwindow dressings and things like
that, which would be theequivalent of going out for that
car ride again.
And we need that foundation sothe dog feels well.
But sleep disturbances, giissues sometimes you might also

(19:45):
get that chicken and egg kind ofquestion, right, is it?
Maybe there's something elsegoing on from a GI standpoint
that needs to be addressed thatis impacting the dog's welfare
and health and it's not relatedto the trauma.
Do you ever come up with thatconundrum and what do you do
from there?

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I am lucky to work withreally great vets because there
is a going backwards andforwards all the time.
You know what's caused bystress.
We know autoimmune diseases canbe caused by stress.
We know cataract and utis canbe caused by stress and we have
to really lay the puzzle out andsee what is causing what here,

(20:20):
and sometimes we have to testdifferent treatment plans to see
, just to see you know what haswhat effect here.
So it's about going backwardsand forwards all the time.
I see the same with PTSD dogsthat I suspect have pain in
their body.
Sometimes there's a body posturethat will eventually, with time
, cause them pain becausethey're crouching in their

(20:41):
behinds or they're they, youknow, stood like a little upside
down, turned you really scaredposition and that will cause
pain in the back.
Or do they have a medical issuecausing pain in the back?
I mean, we really need to findthat out first.
But some of these dogs, when Imeet them, they're super scared
of of humans and people and newpeople and it's hard for them to

(21:05):
just go to the vets.
But this is all information weneed to give to the dog owner as
well, that you know the optimalthing would be for a vet to do
their evaluation of your dog,but doing it now will
re-traumatize, so we'll have todo this in a month or two and we
have to start with, you know,socialization and handling,
training, so your dog doesn'texperience that that visit in a

(21:28):
way.
That would just give us a worseprognosis, really.
So it's, it's tricky, it'sreally tricky with some of these
dogs because they're there's somany factors affecting their
well-being absolutely.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
It sounds like the number one key to moving forward
is patience, right.
Because, it's all at the dog'space, you know, and what they're
going to be willing, I guessfor lack of a better word to do
for that session on that day,you know.
Just backing up to theveterinary component, I know it
might be slightly different inthe UK and it depends on where

(22:03):
you are in the world, but interms of behavior medication, do
you find something commonthat's being prescribed for dogs
that have this diagnosis orwe're looking at trauma?

Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, I do, and I think that it's on the rise.
You know different kind ofmedications.
I don't know what it's like inthe US, but in Sweden we have
some medications that we use for, you know, just to calm dogs,
just stress dogs really.
But then there's somemedications that we used for
compulsory disorders and anxietydisorders and those are mostly,

(22:36):
you know, human medicationsthat we're trying on dogs, but
most often they've been testedon dogs to be able to be cleared
, to be used for humans anyway.
But but swedish vets areactually opening their eye to to
more substances, more types ofmedication than just your
average.
You know calming medication, soyeah, but but it's tricky, not

(22:59):
all ptsd dogs are.
You know the case that they'renot the kind of cases that need
medications, but the reallycomplex cases most often do,
maybe not for life, but for aperiod of time when we do the
trigger.
Training and patience, like yousaid, it's key.
So I always tell my clientsthat there's no quick fixes.
There never are with dogs andespecially not with PTSD dogs.

(23:23):
There never are with dogs andespecially not with PTSD dogs.
So I mean, get ready to atleast spend six to twelve months
focusing on this and slowly,slowly, the slower it goes, the
better it is.
You know, help to rehabilitatethis dog, so that's important to
know if you have this kind of adog, that there's no quick
fixes and you need to take itstep by step and and the slower,
the slower the rehabilitationprocess, the really more durable

(23:46):
the results.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like the structure is so
important.
Part of that patience processtoo, because that lends itself
to changing a person's lifestyletoo and what their expectations
are for the dog, because theymight have aspirations.
Okay, we used to go hiking allthe time, we used to go to the
park and enjoy the outdoors, butnow you don't want to do that,

(24:08):
meaning they're talking to theirdog, and I think it might be
difficult for some people tohave such a profound shift in
their daily routine with theirdog.
But again, it boils down toreally recognizing that that dog
needs, that it is a lifestylechange, but that dog needs that
to progress forward or move backto possibly what they were
doing before right.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, yeah, and I think if you have a dog that's
experienced something that havegiven them PTSD, I think what
you have to come to terms withwhich could be, you know, a
grief process that your dog willnever be the same again it's
all about treating it slowly andtrying to get the dog to feel

(24:48):
as good as it possibly can andto handle its triggers and
trigger reactions, but we can'treally go in and cure it or
erase PTSD or erase the memories.
So for some people it's a griefprocess.
You know I didn't, you knowthis wasn't what I expected out
of dog life.
And now I have this dog that Ican.
You know I didn't, you knowthis wasn't what I expected out
of dog life.
And now I have this dog that Ican't hardly take for a walk,

(25:08):
you know, without him lungingand barking at other dogs, for
instance, and yeah, that can bea hassle and I think during
these months of training we wantto improve the situation, but
if that dog has been attacked,brutally attacked by another dog
, we will never be able to erasethat memory.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Of course, Right, right, and you speak of one
particular trigger there Now,thinking of dogs as a species
and what they might find foreignin the universe and other
stimuli that maybe humans don'tfind foreign or normal to us.
But what are some of the commonstressors or triggers that
actually you've seen are commoncauses of trauma?

Speaker 2 (25:49):
well, it all depends regarding triggers, it all
depends on the incident,whatever they experience.
So it could be anything fromsounds to dogs, to smells to
people or some kind of typicalkind of people you know, men or
kids, or nightfall.
It could be anything justrelated to that actual event

(26:10):
that traumatized the dog.
So it's a big variety.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Do you think there's anything more common to dogs?
Like, for instance, fireworksare a good example of humans
we're like, okay, fireworks, atleast most humans can understand
they can be traumatizing toactually some humans, but for
dogs, would you say, it's muchmore so often with dogs, so
something like that, where thereis something that you see
commonly causing trauma in dogs.

(26:36):
Maybe another one I can thinkof is being transported from one
location one country to anotherand they're being put in a
plane and they're stuck in acargo cabin for hours and
they've moved to this foreignenvironment.
That can also, I've seen, havesimilar effects.
So can you think of anything inthat regard of common triggers

(26:57):
or causes?

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, if we want to look at common causes, like
events that can cause PTSD, wewant to look at any kind of
incident that is unpredictablefor the dog, you know, where the
dog actually loses control.
So being crated and put at thebottom of an airplane and flown
across the world, that could besuch an incident.
Anywhere where the dog isworried or scared of bodily harm

(27:22):
or fear of its own life beingthreatened, those are incidents
that could cause PTSD and thatcould be anything.
And I think it's quiteinteresting that sometimes it's
that wolf attack or thefireworks or that big where
three dogs came and, you know,attack this little dog.
That's obvious for us in asense.
But I think we also need toremember, for a really small

(27:45):
puppy it could be that vet thatpinned the puppy down to the
examination table when thatpuppy growled because he didn't
want to take his first shot To ahuman.
That might seem, you know, oh,it wasn't that bad and the vet
let him go, but to that puppythat could be an incident of
those characteristics and thatcan cause PTSD.
Or just, you know, having a petgate falling over a small puppy

(28:10):
, that could be an incident withthose characteristics causing
PTSD.
It doesn't have to be that hugecar crash or the big earthquake
or these big, huge things.
We have to see it out of thedog's perspective, and age come
in play.
So it's a difference if there'sa six, seven-year-old dog who is

(28:31):
experienced and has had lots ofpositive experience of other
dogs and humans, or if it's thislittle puppy that's a clean
slate and doesn't know much andhasn't experienced a lot.
And that really brings us intoone trial learning which I think
is if we can just anybody witha dog, with a puppy or a rescue,
that clean slate kind of dog,if we can just understand that

(28:55):
the first time a dog experiencedsomething, be it fireworks or
kids running around or that petgate falling to the floor, if
that's the first time theyexperienced that, if that is
overwhelming to them, if that'san overexposure that risks
setting fears and even PTSD, butfears and phobias as well.

(29:15):
So we want to make sure toreally rub out the risk of one
trial learning, but by helpingour dogs experience a lot of
things in a mild exposure, sojust that pet gate rattling a
little bit or hearing a lowvolume of fireworks on your

(29:36):
phone or your computer.
A volume of fireworks on yourphone or your computer, or
watching dogs run around andplay in a park without being in
the midst of it, being a littlepart away and just sitting like
a puppy sitting in his dogowner's lap and just watching
this All of those experiencesrubs at the risk of one trial
learning becoming a traumaticevent, traumatic event.

(29:58):
So I think that's super, superimportant when you have a dog,
especially a puppy, that weshouldn't just, you know,
protect them from everything.
We should, on the other hand,expose them to a lot of things,
but at a really low exposure.
That we should always be belowthe threshold of stress so we do
not overexpose them.
So it sounds like there's a lotof great preventative measures
we can take.
Especially, we should always bebelow the threshold of stress

(30:18):
so we do not overexpose them.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
So it sounds like there's a lot of great
preventative measures we cantake, especially in puppies, so
I want to dive more into that.
But I want to take a quickbreak to hear word from our
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All right, we're back here withCarolyn and Lupo and we've been
talking about PTSD in dogs andnow we're going to get a little

(33:13):
bit more into those preventativemeasures we were just chatting
about before the break inpuppies and gradually exposing
them to the world and all thesethings that could be potential
triggers or causes, rather, fortrauma if they're exposed to it
at a high level.
And you know, I think that'salso an interesting way to look
at socialization and habituationand getting dogs used to the

(33:35):
world.
But sometimes we have varyingdegrees, you know we have people
that might get overzealous.
Oh my gosh, I got to take mypuppy to a hundred places in a
hundred days and you know thoserules of like active, massive
amounts of socialization andothers that are like, oh no, we
have to protect our puppies andput them in a cocoon and they
can't see anything or be exposedto any diseases or anything.

(33:55):
So we got to find this middleground, exposed to any diseases
or anything.
So we got to find this middleground.
I think that's why I was askingthe questions about, you know,
what are common causes fortrauma in dogs, because we
sometimes again don't recognizewe have to, as you put it so
eloquently, before seeing thingsthrough the dog's eyes, right?
And so what about here's alittle more kind of deeper dive

(34:17):
question?
What about here's a little morekind of deeper dive question
the breeding that we've done orthe selectiveness for certain
traits in dogs, let's say, morehypervigilance or more scanning
from certain breeds, herdingbreeds that we've bred to or
selected for particularcharacteristics.
So do you see that like, can wedive into that a little bit
about what to consider when wehave a certain breed Maybe it's

(34:40):
a livestock guardian dog that'smore aloof and suspicious of
people approaching, and how thatmight play a role in trauma if
they're more likely to be wired,so to speak, to do certain
behaviors.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yeah, I mean their DNA is already telling them you
know, be aware of everybodythat's not your pack.
So if they experience somethingwith somebody outside of their
pack that kind of feeds thatreservation, then those
behaviors and those actions thatthey could take towards people
that they don't know willincrease, I guess.

(35:14):
But it's different.
I mean any dog being a StBernard or a German Shepherd or
Poodle, any dog experiencingharsh handling.
I mean the common denominatorin my study was human beings
harsh handling dogs very harshlyand punishing them and really
being violent towards dogs.
And it really doesn't matterwhat breed you are.

(35:34):
I mean there's a huge risk oftraumatization, are.
I mean there's a huge risk oftraumatization.
But of course there's two sidesto each coin.
If one breed gets PTSD and theevent included a human being and
the fear inside of this dogmakes them flee or panic or
crouch up, that's one response.
But a dog, like you said, astock guarding dog or a dog with

(35:56):
more vigilance as a natural,that dog could become more
aggressive instead of fleeingthe situation.
So we'd have different symptoms, I think, different responses
to the same kind of stress yes,yeah but having, like the dog
you explained there, those lifestock guarding dogs.
I have a dog now, that benji.

(36:16):
He's one and a half years oldand he's a mix of three guarding
dogs, herding dogs, and when hewas a puppy, you know, having
this in mind, there's thatmiddle ground.
You know, like you mentioned,mike, that we don't want to give
this puppy to anybody to handlebecause that might make him
scared and wary of people, butat the same time we want him to

(36:39):
realize that people around himaren't frightening and then they
won't, you know, do him or usany harm.
So, finding that middle groundand and like with another breed
that naturally are a bit wary of, of, you know, sounds, then we
would want to practice that morewith that kind of puppy and
play a lot of different soundsand make a lot of different

(37:01):
sounds and kind of also seewhere is just habituation enough
.
Where can the dog experiencethese sounds played on a
computer or just rattling in thekitchen or whatever, and
naturally they'll just, you know, become used to them.
And what sounds will the dognot get used to?
What sounds that we make orplay will always make this dog

(37:24):
shy away and those we have tocounter condition and make like
a fun game out of, but start atan early age and make sure not
to overdo it.
It's that middle ground again,just to do it a little bit now
and again.
And when the dog goes intotheir natural fear periods then
I kind of pause all this kind oftraining and pick it up again

(37:45):
afterwards.
So to really set anindividualized plan that suits
that dog.
And in that individualized planwe have to look at what breed
is it and what previousexperiences does this dog have
it?
And and what previousexperiences does this dog have?
And foremost, what is the dogtelling us regarding his or her
emotional life?
When, when the dog is, you know, stood in a market or hears

(38:07):
something or sees another dog,what's happening inside?

Speaker 1 (38:13):
yeah, and along those lines too it had me thinking
about the different you've beenmentioned, different
developmental stages and theykind of.
What are the impacts?
You see, let's say it's a dogthat has a very minimal
socialization and then during acritical development let's say
it's a puppy at seven or eightweeks but they were, let's say,
a singleton pup and they seetheir, you know, they get

(38:36):
attacked by a dog, somethingreally bad happens.
How much of a profound effectdo you think that has, not only
during their criticaldevelopmental stages, but also
there's already a currentpropensity for fear of the
universe.
Again, another phrase that'svery broad, but let's say the
dog already has a tendency to befearful of things and it's

(38:56):
during the critical.
Does that?
Do you see a significantlyprofound impact when they
experience trauma at that age?

Speaker 2 (39:02):
yeah, yeah, I do.
I mean those ages are reallycritical, the fear faces, uh.
So during that time I reallywant to with my own dogs.
I want to keep them safe andsound and I do not really, you
know, go out on on longeradventures or put them in
situations where I don't havecontrol of what's happening
around or what people are comingup to them or what dogs we meet

(39:25):
.
So I really do take them out ofof a lot of situations I I
cannot control during those fearphases and then I pick it up
again at the other, on the otherside of them, because they
learn fears and the fears arereally cemented in them so
easily during those phases.
But I think the more workyou've done before I mean before

(39:47):
the first fear phase, they'rereally most dogs are quite
happy-go-lucky and curious andthey easily find their courage.
So I remember my house.
It was like it looked a messwhen I had a puppy the last time
, because there was these gateson the floors and there was
tinfoil and there were all theseyou know balance boards and
different things.
It was scattered all over theplace for the puppy to kind of,

(40:08):
you know, run around and crashinto you know nothing being
dangerous, but making a lot ofsound and the surfaces being,
you know, slippery, slipperysome of them, just to make the
dog really safe and secure,regardless of what's happening
around, having umbrellas orasking my son to put a big
helmet on and walk around andtoss the dog some treats, you

(40:31):
know, vaccinating the dog fromfrom being scared of weird
things.
Really early Early I played notonly fireworks on the computer,
you know, through the speakers,but also babies, you know,
talking, cooing and giggling,because I have no babies in my
house.
My kids are older, so justgetting them used to that kind
of noise, so it's not a rarityand we won't risk that one try

(40:55):
learning of it becoming scary.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yeah, and it had me thinking along the lines that
even when we do that though itdoesn't completely inoculate the
dog to a traumatic episode,because somebody in a helmet
your dog might be used to seeingpeople in helmets now, but
somebody in that helmet could dosomething really bad to the dog
eventually, and so it doesn'tcompletely inoculate them, but

(41:19):
it certainly adds a layer ofprotection.
I guess, so to speak, ofperceiving something for the
first time with all of thoseother components in the
environment, right.
So in this regard, we've talkedabout preventative measures,
but let's talk about what we cando to help the dogs that have
experience, or we're puttingthis label of PTSD on.
What can we do in more of a, ifwe're talking to the trainers

(41:44):
and consultants that arelistening in right now, what can
we do to help these dogs?
We mentioned very gradualexposure, going at the holistic
level, gradually adding in thetriggers that are not the direct
context, I guess you could say.
But you'd mentioned somethingvery important too is control
and safety, the feeling ofsecurity and predictability.
So can you dive more to thatdetail?

(42:05):
So let's say we're combiningcounter conditioning with that
control.
What does that look like foryou?

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, this is a really good question.
I think a lot of dog trainersget a bit stuck in.
You know desensitization andhabituation, but there's a risk
because what's happeningactually when you work with
habituation is that you're usingextinction and there's always a
risk in that and there's a bigrisk of overexposure.

(42:32):
So I preferred reallycontrolled trigger training with
counter conditioning.
And counter conditioning I meanit can sound like okay, so you
play the firework sound, youtoss the dog a treat and then
you repeat that.
But that's not it, that's notcounter conditioning.
So counter conditioning in thisstate is really having a very

(42:53):
strict setup that the dog canpredict foremost and can control
.
That's super important.
Let's take an example.
Let's say we're working with adog whose primary triggers is
sounds related to fireworks.
So the setup would be the dognot in a sit-stay position,

(43:15):
because some dogs they just gointo working mode and they that
don't connect with their heart,they mostly connect with their
head and just want to beobedient because they want that
tree or that toy.
So I want to stay clear of anycues associated with kind of
obedience training or whatwhatever you'd like to call it.
So so just a setup where thedog knows that if I stand in

(43:37):
this spot or if I move to thisplace, then the training starts.
So, like a blanket or just await a minute sign rather than a
stop, stay, cue, that's beentaught.
Then I'll place out like anexternal reward if it's a toy or
if it's a treat, and I want mydog to focus on that.
And then I'll always ask youknow, are you ready?

(43:59):
And if the dog looks at me orlooks at the reward, the dog is
saying I'm ready to work.
I want to do this.
If the dog shies away or looksaway or yawns, or it doesn't
have to do much, it doesn't haveto walk off the actual blanket
or leave the stage.
It could just in any wayexpress I'm not ready.

(44:19):
That's when I just put my handsup and stop.
And I'll still reward the dogwith whatever I'd placed out
there an external reward.
I'll still give the dog thatreward.
Just to say you do not have tolisten to the sound to get the
reward.
This is not, you know, asituation where you have to
listen to a sound to get food orget a treat, because that's not
fair.
So I reward the dog even if thedog says no to training.

(44:43):
But if the dog says yes, looksat me or looks at the reward,
then I want to start teachingthe dog that this results in me
playing a sound.
And if I start with a fireworksound, I'm not being very kind,
you know I'm scaring the dog,even if it's at really low level
, so I'll start with a fireworksound.
I'm not being very kind, youknow I'm scaring the dog, even
if it's at really low level, soI'll start with any other sound
I'll like click my fingers, orI'll play a sound of a cat

(45:06):
meowing or a duck quacking, justsomething.
So the dog hears a sound.
And straight afterwards Ialways like to go bang.
So instead of going go ahead oryou know, okay, I'll just go
bang and I'll let the dog runoff and get, get the toy or get
the treat, and we'll repeat this.
And after a while, when I havelike a dog that's really eager

(45:28):
to practice, because this is alot of fun and the sounds aren't
that bad then I start reallyjust adding some sounds that are
similar to fireworks.
They don't have to be fireworks, but they're just a similarity
at a really low volume on myphone or in the speaker.
And if this is tricky and thedog dislikes it.

(45:49):
The next time I'll use one ofthose sounds I'll have like the
earbuds in the dog's ear, soI'll make the sound even less
loud by putting earplugs in.
And I'll make sure that if thenoises that we work with are 20,
30%, the sounds that the dogdoesn't like, the rest will be

(46:11):
sounds that doesn't awakenegative emotions in the dog.
So I always want to have a goodand positive balance there and
it's not about doing 38repetitions.
It might be six or eightrepetitions and then we take a
break.
But that break isn't me talkingto the client, not having focus
on that dog.
That break is always aboutnumber one stress release going

(46:33):
out, running, jumping, barking,playing, tug of war, whatever
the dog needs to release stress.
And the second is helping thedog land.
Again, you know to land softly.
Maybe it's a treat search orit's a massage, or it's holding
the dog close.
It's helping the dog unwindafter the stress release.
And after that the dog iseither placed back in the car or

(46:56):
in another room, wherever thedog feels safe.
So we have rest and then I talkto the client and after that
we'll go back on and do maybesix, eight, 10 repetitions,
again before a break, dependingon the dog.
So it's less is more and wehave many of these sessions and
I teach the client how to dothis at home and this is like

(47:18):
first phase training.
And then it's phase two andthree and four and five.
And when we reach phase fivewhen it comes to sound training,
that is when we, you know, weleave.
Well, in phase four really,that's when we leave the sounds
on a computer or on a phone or,you know, on a speaker and we
start making sounds that aresimilar to firework sounds.

(47:39):
And after that, when we, youknow, really reinforce the cue,
bang, which means run towardsyour external reward when you've
heard a sound, then in phasefive we start using that bridge,
that bang cue, in a lot ofdifferent situations.
That's just in your everydaylife, like the dog owner might

(48:00):
be walking the dog and somebodyshuts the car, a car door or
shuts the lid of you know, atrash can and there's a noise
and the dog owner can say bangand toss out a reward or a treat
.
And we start really helping thedog understand that this
training applies everywhere.
It's not just a setup.
When we go see Carol, itappears at home, it's on our

(48:21):
walk, it's in our living room,it's everywhere.
And it's also in this phasewhere, if we've added medication
, we want to start phasing outthe medication to see will the
results in the form of the dogfeeling safe and secure and
handling these kinds of soundswhen they are not predictable,
so when the dog can't foreseethem coming.

(48:42):
If the results are still there,good, then we can keep phasing
out the medication.
If not, we have to keep the dogon medication and we have to
work more on sounds beingunpredictable, because that's
the reality In the beginning ofthe rehabilitation phase.
We really want to give the dogcontrol and predictability, but

(49:03):
we can't just stay there becausethen we won't help the dog
reach a level of security thatactually helps them in real life
where sounds will beunpredictable.
That was a long answer to yourquestion, mike.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
And I love that you're yeah, no.
It's a beautiful answer becauseyou really stress the need for
choice and control as part ofthis program.
It's so important that the dogcan opt to say I don't want to
do this right now, but still getreinforcement for it.
I just interviewed Ken Ramirezand he was talking about this
same concept with a beluga whaleand teaching the beluga whale

(49:37):
to say no, and I think it's sucha powerful tool because one of
the side effects of this sort oftraining as you'd mentioned,
the extinguishing of behaviorcan come with frustration, which
then, for a dog, one of thesymptoms we were talking about
refers that rage or anger.
That can be a side effect ofthis trauma or trauma response,
and we certainly don't want tosee that, because this again is

(49:59):
an aggression podcast and wetalk about aggression all the
time.
That's one of the things weoften note.
So it's such an importantconcept, I think, to include
really in any of your trainingprograms, but especially with
dogs that have experiencedtrauma.
You know I want to take a littledeeper dive into the training
aspects here.
In your paper you had exploredsome different training
techniques and protocols thatare used for these dogs, one of

(50:22):
them being tattling.
Now tattling is not a commonphrase in the US, so can you
just explain what that lookslike really quickly for the
listeners?

Speaker 2 (50:31):
Yeah, it's like it's counter conditioning really.
But the dog is taught to lookat the trigger or listen to the
trigger.
So say, for instance, thetrigger is another dog.
So I'm stood with the clientand the client's dog and I ask a
decoy dog to come out.
So if I'm tackling training,the client dog will look at the

(50:54):
decoy dog and straight awaywe'll give a reward, cue and
reward the dog by our side.
So the client dog will look atthe decoy dog and turn around
and look at us.
And that's the tattlingbehavior to look at the decoy
and then turn and look at us andwe'll repeat this and reinforce
this until our dog can look atthe decoy dog and without us

(51:16):
praising or saying anything orgiving the reward cue, the
client dog will automaticallyturn, spontaneously, turn around
towards us and then we can givea reward cue and and mark that
turn and then we really havethat tattling, the turning away.
What I also want to do withthese dogs, because these dogs

(51:37):
are scared, you know, that's whythey flee or they get
aggressive, because they arereally, really scared.
So out of the dog's perspective, a scared dog in a dog pack is
protected by the protectors, bythe guard dogs.
God, you opened up a can ofworms here now.
But after the client doglooking at the decoy dog and

(52:00):
then turning towards me or theclient, I want that reward to be
placed behind us.
So the dog that's scared looksat the decoy and goes in behind
us, which gives us a chance toact as the protector, to stand
up and face the decoy dog and doso in a manner like a guard dog

(52:23):
do.
I always say to my clients like, look like a Rottweiler, stand
there broad leg, focus on thedecoy dog, so if your dog turns
around, he or she can see thatyou actually got their back,
you've got this covered, you'rein the front line, you'll handle
this, and that is superimportant for these dogs.
I do another thing with dogsthat are scared of other dogs or

(52:46):
humans that I teach them to sitslightly behind their owner and
the client.
The owner puts their leg out infront of their dog, so their
leg is like a barrier over theirdog's chest, so they've
actually placed themselves inthe front line in front of their
dog and then either me orsomebody else or somebody with a

(53:07):
dog comes walking towards themand the client, the dog owner,
needs to look at their dog alittle bit now and again,
backwards and forwards, lookingat whoever's coming towards them
and at their own dog.
And when they see that theirdog is getting a little bit
stressed out, then they'll putup a hand and say no thanks, my
dog doesn't want to greet orjust go away or give me some

(53:30):
distance, whatever.
Just say something, but act.
Put up that hand and act, andwhoever was walking towards them
need to quickly turn around andbolt off.
You know, as if they got reallyscared and was like I'm off,
I'm not dealing with those two.
And then we'll repeat this.
And what we see after just threeor four repetitions, this is
super cool the client's dogbehind them.

(53:51):
They will stop lunging, they'llstop barking, they'll just look
at their owner and go okay, doyour thing off, because that's
what we're teaching them.
We're teaching them.
You're not on your own.
Your human being will stand infront of you and will scare off
whatever scares you, because wehave to meet these dogs where
they are.
We can't just.
We have to have a strategy tohelp them feel less scared.

(54:13):
But there and then in the now,they are deadly scared.
They're fearing for their lifeon a daily basis.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
So we need to become that protector, we need to be
that rottweiler and help them inin the everyday situations that
they they meet there's so manyways we can unpack this too,
because at the most basic levelwe might just argue that okay,
it's the stimulus, is the cue inthe environment.
So to return to the handler forreinforcement, sort of like an

(54:40):
engage disengage protocol or alook at that.
But I do love the sociallearning aspect you put on it in
that your dog starts to learnyou're going to keep them safe,
so you're advocating for the dog.
And then we can also put thenotion of the dog's got choice
in the environment, so they canchoose to flee.
They could choose to lunge andbark.
But we're just reinforcing, forus humans, the most desirable

(55:01):
choice in the animal, which isreturning to the handler and
then going behind the handler aswell.
Yeah, it's really interestingfor me to hear variations on
this and why, for dogs withtrauma, it's so important to
have that additional element ofthat social learning where okay,
my person's got this.
They're advocating for mebecause it's a lot different

(55:22):
than a dog that's notnecessarily worried about their
human advocating for them orit's not.
You don't get the same traumaresponse.
So, yeah, I love this and I'dlove to kind of also talk about
the different protocols that youmentioned in your paper.
You had mentioned things likebats cats protocols that you
mentioned in your paper.
You had mentioned things likebats cats, counter-conditioning,

(55:43):
tattling and even punishment.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
So there was a couple of them that were most
effective.
And what were those?
The counter-conditioning andtattling, which is
counter-conditioning, that'sjust an operant part in it.
And then it was bat, of course,that had good effect, and
punishment, of course, had theopposite effect.
The dogs got worse or gotre-traumatized.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
You had cited some resources and some other papers
in your study.
But why do you think punishmentis so detrimental, especially
in these cases?

Speaker 2 (56:13):
It's like.
It's just like a never endingloop of harshness and violence.
Really, I mean human or dog.
If you've been subjected toviolence and you have stress
related issues because of thatand somebody is trying to help
you with them using moreviolence, it's just, you know,
pouring more petrol on that fire.
It's never going to put thatfire out.

(56:34):
So to me it's logical that moreforce will not help a dog in
distress.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
Yeah, and you think about the context too, where,
just if we're going to that samecontext where the dog
experienced trauma and then weadd in something else to that
context, well, we're alreadytrying to strip away these
secondary triggers and work witheach one of them and suddenly
we add something else that'sanother secondary trigger.
When you think about it in thatcontext at least that's the way
my mind's wrapping around itlike why would we want to do?

(57:01):
That to the dog and add insomething worse to an already
bad situation, right?

Speaker 2 (57:07):
yeah, and I think the only reason why dog owners do
that is because they lack theknowledge that they don't know
what to do.
They're frustrated.
They might have a dog that'sreally fearful or has a high
level of aggression and they donot know what to do.
So that's probably why peopleland in trying to use more force
to solve aggression, but mostoften they realize quite quickly

(57:32):
that it's only making thingsworse.
I worked with a dog the otherday that was really really
scared after harsh handling.
It had so many homes more homesthan it had years on this earth
and it bit its owner when shetried to put the harness on or
put the leash on, or it justwent mad and just started biting
everywhere.
Really, she said I'm trying notto take this personal, but it

(58:00):
really is, you know, hurting myfeelings and my hands and I
don't know what to do.
And I said to her that she justneeds to take her hands away.
At you know, when it's actuallyhappened.
Just slowly take your handsaway and slowly walk away and
give the dog space.
And then we set up like atraining plan on how this dog
gained control of putting on theharness herself and having you
know this, this again.
You know, are you ready cue andresponding to that.

(58:21):
And us never moving the harnesson top of her, always her, you
know, putting her head, stickingher head in the harness.
And I said to her the attacksthat she does.
Now we use them to evaluate ourtraining.
So say she attacks your handthree times a day today.
We want to practice and trainin this manner and say, okay, in

(58:42):
four or five days how manyattacks per day do we have?
And in a week or two weeks howmany attacks per day do we have?
So we're slowly getting down tozero.
So some people just also haveto understand that there.
And then the symptom, theattacking of the hands, it's not
.
We don't act there.
And then that's not when wesolve it.
We solve it in differentmanners, out of a holistic

(59:03):
perspective and we see thosereactions like you know a
receipt is our training workingor not?
Are these attacks actuallybeing minimized with the
training or are they increasing?
And I think that's superimportant always to evaluate
whatever you're doing with a dog, trying to help a dog, always
evaluate every measure.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
I think that's a great way to wrap up this
episode and remembering thepatience and really keeping an
eye on things with our dogs andevaluating and meeting their
needs and advocating for theirneeds.
So thank you so much.
This has been fascinating tochat with you and I'd love to
find out where listeners canfind out more about you as well.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Yeah, you can reach me on Instagram or on Facebook,
either Carolina Lupo, or you cansearch for Petly, which is like
a companion app for dog ownersthat I've helped create, so
petly.
And you can also download petly, you know, on on app store or
google play, but on instagramand facebook you'll find me at
carolina loophole excellent,carolyn.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to chat with us and I
hope to see you again in thefuture.
It was wonderful chatting withcarolyn and I hope you enjoyed
this episode as much as I did.
Learning about what trauma isand how it can impact dogs or
humans can truly shape and helpour behavior change strategies

(01:00:26):
and ultimately create moreempathy for those who may be
struggling.
And don't forget to head onover to aggressivedogcom for
more information about helpingdogs with aggression, From the
Aggression and Dogs MasterCourse to webinars from
world-renowned experts and evenan annual conference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression in dogs.

(01:00:47):
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or

(01:01:07):
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in, asalways.
Stay well, my friends.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Does that make any sense?

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Totally, and I'm about to sneeze, so I'm going to
have John edit this out.
Give me one second.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Sorry.