Transforming Shelter Life: Insights from Veterinary Behaviorist Dr. Sheila Segurson

What unique challenges do shelter animals face in their journey to find a forever home? Tune in to this enlightening conversation with Dr. Sheila Segurson, America's first veterinary behaviorist to specialize in animal shelters, as she walks us through her groundbreaking work and daily responsibilities at Maddie's Fund. Dr. Segurson shares her experiences consulting with shelter organizations and fostering community collaboration, providing insight into the stressors faced by shelter animals, including lack of sleep and limited choices. Her admiration for the dedication of shelter workers shines through, shedding light on their often underappreciated efforts.

Dr. Sheila Segurson is the Director of Community Solutions for Maddie’s Fund and a diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. Dr. Segurson was the first veterinarian to complete an animal behavior specialty training program with a focus on shelter animals and has over 20 years of experience in varying roles such as shelter volunteer, dog trainer, foster caregiver, veterinarian, clinical veterinary behaviorist, shelter veterinary behaviorist, consultant, and teacher. Dr. Segurson utilizes her background to help animal welfare organizations keep pets out of the shelter, improve companion animal welfare and make objective decisions for pets with behavioral concerns or challenges.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
In this episode I have the wonderful opportunity
to chat with somebody who hasworn a lot of different hats.
We often talk about thecross-pollination of ideas
between different communities inthe animal care industries and
for this episode we consider theunique views of trainers,
consultants, veterinarians andshelter teams who work with dogs
who have a history ofaggression.

(00:23):
Dr Sheila Segerson is theDirector of Community Solutions
for Maddie's Fund and a diplomatof the American College of
Veterinary Behaviors and joinsme for this unique and
enlightening discussion.
Dr Segerson was the firstveterinarian to complete an
animal behavior specialtytraining program with a focus on
shelter animals and has over 20years of experience in varying

(00:45):
roles, such as a sheltervolunteer, dog trainer, foster
caregiver, veterinarian,clinical veterinary, behaviorist
, shelter veterinary,behaviorist, consultant and
teacher.
Dr Segerson utilizes herbackground to help animal
welfare organizations keep petsout of the shelter, improve
companion animal welfare andmake objective decisions for

(01:05):
pets with behavioral concerns orchallenges.
And if you are enjoying thebitey end of the dog, you can
support the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in
Scottsdale, arizona, with bothin-person and online options.

(01:28):
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression

(01:50):
in dogs.
Hey everyone, welcome back toseason five of the Bitey End of
the Dog.
I have a very special guestthis week, dr Sheila Segerson,
who is a veterinary behaviorist,among many other things, and
I've had the pleasure of workingwith Sheila on a couple of
little projects here and there,and that's why I was excited to

(02:11):
bring her on for this show,because we're going to dive into
all things shelter, shelter,behavior considerations in that
environment, but really moreabout what we need to be looking
for in terms of the behavioralwell-being of dogs in these
environments.
So we're going to take a deepdive into that.
So welcome to the show, sheila.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Thanks so much, Mike.
I'm really happy to be here.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
So let's get a little bit more about your background,
because when we hear veterinarybehavior, so at least us
trainers, we're thinking okay,so somebody that's working
deeply with behavior in apractice setting, seeing
patients, or maybe in academia.
But you're a little bitdifferent in that regard.
So why don't you fill us in alittle bit on what you do, sort
of like the daily routine ofSheila?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, sure.
So my background as aveterinary behaviorist.
I was the first veterinarybehaviorist in the United States
to do a postgraduate residencytraining program with a focus on
behavior in animal shelters.
So that was my focus frombefore I was a veterinary

(03:10):
behaviorist.
So my job these days I work foran organization called Maddie's
Fund, a national animal welfareorganization, and my job
involves doing things likeconsulting with sheltering
organizations.
I consult about individualanimals as well as about their
overall behavior programs andincluding things like foster

(03:30):
care and marketing, because it'sall tied together.
Actually I have my colleaguedoes the marketing and foster
care piece, because that's notmy area of expertise.
But lots of consulting, lots ofbringing groups of animal
shelter behavior people togetherto talk about what's going on
and learn from each other.
A little bit of research hereand there, some education too is

(03:52):
is what I do these days so youwear many, many hats, as many
veterinary behaviors do.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
But in addition to that, you have a lot of
organizational aspects that gointo your daily routine as well,
and bringing people together,it sounds like.
So that's wonderful and I wouldlove to dive into that aspect.
You know, in terms of as thefolks in the shelter world and
that's how I lovingly refer tothem, the folks in the shelter
world, because of the dailytasks and challenges that they

(04:20):
face and I want to give a shoutout to all the shelter peeps in
the world because of all of theamount of labor and love that
they give to their jobs, foroften low pay, understaffed
positions, limited budgets,government involvement sometimes
and all the other challenges,and including that doesn't even
start talking about the animalsthat face challenges as well.

(04:41):
So let's dive into that.
You know considerations betweenshelter dogs or shelter animals
versus a home environment or adog that is you know, quote
unquote owned or is in a homeenvironment already.
Can you talk more about thatand the differences from a
behavioral aspect and what youhave to do?

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, I love to talk about that.
Thank you so much for giving ashout out to all the people who
work in shelters.
Almost makes me tear up hearingyou talk about that, because,
having worked in a sheltermyself, I don't anymore, but I
talk and work with them on aday-to-day basis and these are
people who are working so, sohard to help the animals in

(05:20):
their communities and it's notan easy job animals in their
communities and it's not an easyjob.
But with regard to differencesbetween shelters and living in a
home, obviously there's a lotof them.
Some of the biggest ones areall the things that make an
animal in a shelter environmentpotentially more stressed, so
things like separation fromfamily, everything they know,
weird noises, not being able tosleep the lack of ability to

(05:44):
sleep is a huge one.
We've learned over the pastyears thanks to some wonderful
research and the really big oneis the lack of choice.
When I think about my dog athome and I actually made a video
of this one year my dog Herbiehe pretty much would just sit on

(06:04):
the couch sleeping all day.
He really didn't do anything.
And so you think well, that'snot that different than a dog
that is in a shelter that'ssitting in their kennel.
They're both just sitting there.
But the big difference betweenmy dog at home, Herbie, and the
shelter dog is choice.
And so my dog, Herbie, has achoice whether he sits on that
couch or whether he goes intoanother room.
Kirby has a choice whether hesits on that couch or whether he

(06:26):
goes into another room, andthat just makes such a huge
difference in terms of ourmental well-being that it's a
big one in the shelter world.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yeah, and another consideration is just the
differences in the types ofshelters that are out there and
what resources they have,Because a lot of it does boil
down to the resources and havingthe opportunity to give those
animals that choice you werejust talking about.
You know, I've had thefortunate opportunity to travel
to probably hundreds of sheltersaround the world now and get

(06:52):
tours, originally thanks toTrish McMillan, who helped
introduce me to that shelterworld very deeply.
But over the years I've beenable to take many, many tours of
shelters, and they are allcreated differently.
I will say there's obviouslylots of similarities in some of
the larger humane societies andshelters, but you get all kinds
of variety in terms of staffing,in terms of resources, in terms

(07:13):
of the environment.
Some shelters are strugglingwith leaky floors that are 50 to
70 years old and haven't beenremodeled at all, and you have
some that are state-of-the-arthundreds of staff members, and
some of the other places arestruggling with maybe a limited
budget and two staff members, sothat can be a really
challenging aspect of, I'm sure,what you see.

(07:33):
So what are your thoughts onthat?
You know, just kind of like anoverall.
Then we can dive into thenuances, but like an overall
what shelters experience fromthat challenging point of view.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
There's differences in terms of resources and you
already highlighted that, andwhen I am consulting with
shelters, the resources thatthey have are really, really
important to me, because ashelter that has a behavior
person on staff, therecommendations that I'm going
to make for individual animalsis going to be different than a
shelter that doesn't have abehavior person on staff.
So what they have really needsto be factored into when they're

(08:13):
deciding whether they can helpan animal versus not help an
animal.
They need to look at theirresources to determine, and it's
not easy for anyone.
When you have a lot ofresources, everybody has
challenges.
Even when you have a lot ofresources, nobody has enough
resources.
And then there's alsodifferences in shelters related

(08:34):
to the type of shelter that theyare.
So some shelters are sheltersthat primarily transfer animals
from other organizations intotheir shelter, and other
shelters are shelters that aretaking strays and owner
surrenders from the public.
So different types of sheltersin terms of what they take in

(08:57):
also makes a difference in termsof the type of animals that
they have and care.
Some people think that becauseif an organization is a shelter
that picks and chooses who theyallow to come into their
organization, that they onlytake the easy dogs and the easy

(09:18):
cats, and while that might betrue of some organizations most
of the organizations that I knowthat have more resources
nowadays they are taking in morechallenging animals because
they know they have theresources to do so, and so their
job.
Everyone who works in a shelterhas a really challenging job,

(09:39):
but for different reasons, ifthat makes sense.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Absolutely, and I think it's a reason for us to
empathize with, because it'seasy to point fingers right when
we see a dog that might beeuthanized for behavior in one
particular organization but wesee subjected to a long-term
stay in another, we might seeadopted out in another
organization, and I think itreally is.
Depends much on what you'retalking about there the

(10:02):
resources available, the risk,tolerance and so many other
factors of course.
But again, I find a lot ofcriticism sometimes of
organizations without fullrealization of the struggles
that organization is facing.
So I think it is important toempathize with all of those
variables the staffing, theresources, the risk assessment,

(10:23):
the tolerance, the governmentinfluence, the tolerance, the
government influence.
You know there's so manyvariables.
So in that regard, let's kindof talk about that risk
assessment for a moment.
And let's say we have dogs witha bite history in a shelter
environment.
I know it's a broad question,but can you expand more upon
your thoughts about how ashelter should assess risk,
since we're often talking aboutaggression in this podcast,

(10:44):
thoughts about how?

Speaker 2 (10:45):
a shelter should assess risk, since we're often
talking about aggression in thispodcast.
Yeah, so assessing risk onceagain depends on the shelter and
the resources that it hasavailable.
So that's the first thing isthe shelter needs to know and
understand who and what theyhave available, both within
their organization and outsidetheir organization, to support.
So if they have a slightly morechallenging case, let's say a

(11:07):
dog with significant separationanxiety, who in the community do
they have to consult with withsupport or do they not have
anybody at all?
So that's a big piece of thingsand part of what I do is
helping organizations know wherethey can go to look like IAABC,
for resources to learn who'sout there in their community.

(11:28):
So resources are the bigunderlying everything.
But in terms of factors andactually before I go there, so
some organizations areorganizations that have hardly
any resources, hardly anyresources.
So when it comes todecision-making and factors to
consider, it's both very, veryeasy and very, very difficult

(11:53):
for them because they just don'thave the capacity to be able to
support.
So, as an example, years agoprobably over 10 years ago now
when I was at the Center forShelter Dogs, we did research on
resource guarding and we foundthat the vast majority of the
dogs that we placed into homeswith a history of food
aggression did really well in Ishouldn't say the vast majority.

(12:13):
The majority did well in homesand did not have a problem that
the owners noticed with foodaggression in the homes.
And that resulted in that andother work resulted in many
organizations consideringplacing animals with a history
of food aggression into homesand in many situations that

(12:35):
saved lots of lives and that'sbeen really really well.
But in other situations it'sresulted in animals with food
aggression getting adopted outby organizations who don't have
the ability to do the thingsthat we did at the Animal Rescue
League of Boston.
We counseled the adopters, weformed a relationship with those
adopters, we knew the dogreally really well and we

(12:57):
supported the adopter once thepet went into the home.
So an organization that doesn'thave the ability to do that kind
of thing and unfortunatelythere are many I do want to help
them to build their capacity.
They can use volunteers.
There's lots of things they cando to build over time, but
until they're at that place itis probably not a good idea for

(13:18):
them to be adopting out a dogwith a high risk behavior that
they are unable to support.
So that's the one category ofshelters.
So does that make sense forthat category of shelters?

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, so, and I always like to mention them
because we're all in differentplaces and I don't want people
thinking that all shelters needto be going through all these
detailed risk assessments.
In an ideal world, yes, butsome shelters just don't have
the capacity to be going throughall these detailed risk
assessments.
In an ideal world, yes, butsome shelters just don't have
the capacity to be able toprovide that support.
But for shelters that do have alittle bit more capacity and
are able to provide more supportand are able to safely place

(13:59):
animals with histories ofaggression into home
environments, there's a numberof factors that I go through
with the shelters that I workwith to decide whether an animal
is safe to place, and thatstarts with talking about the
dog's background and history.
What do we know about this dog?

(14:20):
Has he successfully lived in ahome environment before, or has
his dog been adopted andreturned three times?
And in all three of those homesthe dog has been stressed and
the people have been stressed.
So, background and history, andalso looking at whether the dog
has any underlying factors.
So does the dog have anunderlying medical condition?

(14:42):
Does the dog have multiplebehavior conditions?
So is this a dog who isdemonstrating aggressive
behavior towards dogs and catsand people, that is a dog that's
going to be a lot morechallenging to play.
So looking at the big pictureof the dog is definitely what I
start with in terms of assessinga dog with this type of

(15:02):
behavior, and then I go intoindividual things that I look at
with regard to the dog'saggressive behavior, which I can
talk to you about next.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
Absolutely.
Yeah Well, I was going to getinto the topic also of how
assessments have changed overthe years and moving away from
some of the things we've done inthe past in terms of getting
information about that dog'sbehavior as well.
So we could take that angle andI think it'd be useful for some

(15:32):
of our listeners to hear aboutthat.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah, great, I haven't talked about behavior
assessments in a little while,but it's a topic I love to talk
about.
Before I became a veterinarybehaviorist, when I started my
residency, one of the thingsthat I was really interested in
was developing a validatedbehavior test that we could use
to determine whether a dog wassafe to place in a home

(15:57):
environment.
And through my residency Ilearned that there were so many
factors that came into play whenwe were doing a behavior
assessment test, and stress ofthe shelter environment was such
a huge factor.
It made me really, reallyquestion whether we were ever
going to be able to find ordevelop a validated behavior

(16:18):
assessment test.
And then I went to work for theCenter for Shelter Dogs at the
Animal Rescue League of Bostonand there we did research on Dr
Amy Marder's behavior assessmenttest matchup too, and the
research that we did told usthat the behavior we were seeing
on that assessment test was notpredictive of behavior in the

(16:40):
home environment, which is whatwe really care about.
The home environment, which iswhat we really care about.
And there's been research doneon modified assessor pets and
safer tests and other behaviorassessment tests, some that show
a little bit of promisingresults and others that tell us
that it's really reallydifficult to predict aggressive

(17:01):
behavior because there's so manyfactors that come into play in
terms of why that behavior ishappening.
And more recent research istelling us that behavior
assessment tests might be ableto predict friendly behavior and
fearful behavior, but can'tpredict aggressive behavior.

(17:21):
And because of that, many of usare doing behavior assessment
tests because we want to findout who's going to be aggressive
, but the tests aren't good atpredicting that.
So we've really moved away fromdoing formal standardized
behavior assessment tests.
Some organizations still dothem, and if they do have the

(17:42):
resources to do it, great that's.
Another concern is just that ifwe have limited resources like
we've already talked about,spending those resources doing a
test that is not predictive offuture behavior versus spending
time with the dog and getting toknow it in a positive way.
I'd much rather spend the timegetting to know it in a positive

(18:03):
way.
So it's not about we're notgetting to know it in a positive
way.
So it's not about we're notgetting to know the dogs at all.
That's definitely not the case.
It's that we're getting to knowthe dogs through as natural
interactions as possible,understanding that we're in a
very unnatural environment.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, so it's moved on significantly to getting past
history, talking to basicallyeverybody who's ever interacted
with the dog whenever possible,whether it's previous adopters
or animal control or shelterstaff or veterinary behaviors.
Basically, that's going to forma much more robust picture
about potential behavior thanjust a single test at a single

(18:40):
moment.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, that's a great example.
So collecting all thehistorical information that we
have and, if we don't havehistorical information, doing
everything we can to get thatpet into a foster home so that
we can learn about theirbehavior in a more natural
environment.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah, and I can imagine just how demanding that
must be to ask somebody that'salready limited on time and
staffing to also do these testswhen they can get the same
information through just theirdaily interactions, if not more,
especially if it's multiplepeople interacting with that dog
Obviously good note and datataking, so everybody's on the
same page.
So let's jump back to what youwere talking about earlier, the

(19:19):
aggression side of things andmaking decisions around that,
because, again you had mentioned, it really is dependent a lot
on the organization's resourcesand the information they
actually do have about the dogat the time.
So can you talk further aboutthe aggression side of things?
You had mentioned looking andwe've talked at length about
things like bite levels and theseverity of the bite, but that's

(19:43):
not the only factor we shouldbe looking at Kind of going off
into a lot of differentdirections here, but I would
love to get again focus on theaggression side of things and
how shelter organizations canlook at this assessment of risk,
you know, and considering allthe other factors, you know, the
public involvement and the risk, the liability aspects all
these things come into playvomit and the risk, the

(20:06):
liability aspects all thesethings come into play.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, risk assessment is one of the topics that I'm
most interested in these days.
You and I work together in adog bite assessment working
group to try to think about,talk about, develop, learn about
factors that come into playwhen we're assessing dogs with a
history of aggressive behavior.
So we had a number of people inthis working group and we spent

(20:29):
a lot of time surveyingshelters, surveying behaviors,
surveying veterinary behaviorsto learn about how different
people were assessing behavior,what was working and what wasn't
working.
A lot of us use the Dunbar BiteScale to assess dog bites and
that bite scale focusesprimarily on the damage caused

(20:50):
by the bites.
And while the Dunbar scale is awonderful way that, if I say
it's a level three bite, if youknow what the Dunbar scale is,
you know what that means, andactually I feel like this
conversation could go in so manyways.
I just said that.
But that's not true, becausewhen I talk to different people
about this is a level three biteand then I see a picture of it,

(21:11):
we don't all agree about what alevel three bite is necessarily
, and that's a whole, nothertopic.
But in our dog bite assessmentworking group we developed a
list of factors and from thatlist that we developed in that
project I combined that withanother project that I had been
working on to develop a list ofconsiderations that I make when

(21:32):
we're making decisions the bigfactor, things that go into this
decision making, the categoriesthat I look at background and
history, which I already talkedabout.
The next category is the biteitself and we can go into more
details about any of thesecategories, but I'll give the
big categories first.
The bite itself, thecircumstances around that bite,

(21:55):
the organization's capacity tosupport the dog and to help the
dog, how that dog does over time, if time has passed, and then
adoption considerations Can wefind a home for this dog?
Can we safely place the dog ina home?
So those are the broadcategories that I look at.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, and it makes you think again.
Going back to each shelter ororganization is going to be
slightly different and havedifferent tolerances for that.
So again I want to empathizewith.
What can happen sometimes issome finger wagging or finger
pointing at you know, oneshelter organization making a
decision.
You could take the same dog andput it in a totally different

(22:37):
facility and it could be twodifferent outcomes depending on
what the resources available are, what the tolerance is, the
location of the country or worldfor that matter, and the
culture of, you know, theacceptance of dogs who might or
might not bite in a certainlocation.
So lots of considerations whenyou think about it.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, lots of considerations.
And my personal experience inworking with shelters is that
some shelters moved from a placewhere they would never even
consider placing a dog who evengrowled at someone to deciding
that in some situations it'ssafe to place a dog who bites.

(23:18):
And I want to be clear that Ihave seen many, many situations
where we have placed dogs withbite histories in homes and
they've done really, really well.
I've also seen situations wherewe place dogs with bite
histories and they don't.
So anything can happen.
But one of the challenges thatI've seen with organizations is
that they decided to place dogsin homes that had a bite history

(23:41):
, but not really thinkingthrough all the details behind
the bite.
How much damage was caused?
Was it a sustained attack?
Did the dog display warningsignals?
Was the dog trying to get awayand a person approached them?
So one of the things that Ireally try to work on with
shelters is learning andthinking about those things, all
these factors that come intoplay.

(24:03):
Those things, all these factorsthat come into play.
And for many organizations it'sreally changed how they operate
because now when a bite happens, they're getting pictures of
the bite.
If they can get pictures of thebite, they're asking certain
questions around what happenedbefore, what happened during,
what happened after, to helpthem make a more informed
decision and hopefully, muchbetter decisions for the animal

(24:26):
and for our communities.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, and there's really no template, so to speak,
like a checklist.
Okay, this is, we're checkingthese boxes and we're going to
declare this dog adoptable ornot, because, again, all of the
nuances depending on where thatdog is located in the
organization right on where thatdog is located in the
organization, right.
So you have another thought Ican see.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, so yes, very much that when I work with
organizations, I'm working withthat individual organization.
So I do have a spreadsheet thatI go through.
When we're making a decisionabout an individual dog, but
that dog at one organizationwe're going to make a really
different decision for than adog at another.

(25:07):
So it's not a checklist, it's alist of things that we look at
that help to guide our decisionmaking.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
So I would like to kind of switch gears a little
bit and talk about how we canhelp these dogs as well and just
in the shelter environment ingeneral.
And I know there's a lot ofthings we can dive into.
But one of the first things youhad mentioned earlier was about
foster care or finding fosterhomes for many of these dogs and
how beneficial that can be.
So let's dive into that topicfor a moment, because then we

(25:36):
can talk about what we can do inshelter as well.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yeah, so I am a huge proponent of foster care.
I first started fostering over20 years ago now and fostered
many, many dogs.
That they're why I'm such aproponent of them.
One dog in particular was alittle.
She was probably a Catahoulamix.

(25:59):
She was white merle dog with ashort coat.
I met her when she was aboutthree months old and the shelter
had done a behavior assessmenttest.
This was a long time ago backwhen we did behavior assessment
tests and little Lucy bit thefake hand on the food aggression

(26:20):
test and the shelter decidedthat Lucy was not safe to place
and they didn't have options forher and needed to make the
decision to euthanize her.
Little Lucy was sweet, happy.
Little Lucy was sweet, happy,energetic dog and I decided you
know what I just and this wasduring my residency, or actually

(26:45):
it was after my residencyshortly after said I'm just not
comfortable making this decision.
I'm concerned it's because Lucywas stressed in the shelter
environment.
I'm going to try taking her tomy home and see how she does
environment.
I'm going to try taking her tomy home and see how she does.
So I fostered Lucy and how Itend to foster dogs with food

(27:07):
aggression is I don't get intheir face.
I let them eat, I let them dotheir thing, let them adjust to
my home.
I let them have the resourcesthat they want to have for the
first couple of days to allowthem to adjust into my home
environment.
And I did that with Lucy andwithin three days with Lucy I
could trade for treats easily.
She had no evidence of foodaggression or resource guarding
towards anything at all Ended upplacing little Lucy with my

(27:32):
friend Cass, and Cass kept thisdog until she passed away 15
years later and Lucy never hadfood aggression.
So I saw the power of fostercare in terms of helping us to
differentiate whether behaviorthat we're seeing in the shelter
is related to stress stress ofthe shelter environment, I
should say versus a problem thatwe actually might need to be

(27:55):
concerned about in a homeenvironment.
So both from evaluatingbehavior and also seeing that.
Another thing that happened inmy career was working in the
shelter environment and startingto do behavior modification in
the shelter environment to tryto help some of these more
challenging dogs.
I was always fighting againstthe stress of the shelter

(28:17):
environment in that I wouldstart these behavior
modification plans but the dogwould oftentimes deteriorate
over time, even though we weredoing play groups, we were doing
walks, we were doing quiet time, we were doing enrichment, we
were doing everything with them,but they would still.
Especially the dogs that reallyneeded behavior modification
tend to deteriorate over timebecause of the stress of the

(28:38):
shelter.
And yet when I took these dogsinto my home for foster care or
sent them out to foster care,these dogs would oftentimes do
much, much better and we'd see acompletely different dog out of
the shelter.
So I work very closely withsomeone, kelly Doerr, who's a
foster care specialist and sheand I work really hand in hand.

(29:01):
I talk about the behavior sideof things.
She talks about the foster sideof things, because I feel like
foster programs are a criticalpiece of a successful behavior
program.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah, and you mentioned something really
important.
There is the LOS, or the lengthof stay for a lot of dogs, and
I would love to dive more intothat as well.
These, you know, theassociation of shelter
veterinarians or the ASVguidelines, which kind of is a
really well put together packageon all the things we should be
looking for, not from just abehavioral standpoint, from
medical and all the otherfactors that can help dogs.

(29:36):
But I'm going to take a quickbreak to hear a word from our
sponsors and we'll be right backto talk about those ASV
guidelines.
Hey friends, it's me again andI hope you are enjoying this
episode.
Don't forget to join me for thefifth annual Aggression and
Dogs Conference, either inperson or online from Scottsdale
, Arizona, from October 11th tothe 13th 2024.

(29:59):
This year's lineup includesmany incredible speakers,
including Dr Clive Wynn, DrJessica Heckman, Emma Parsons,
Sarah Kallnice, Lori Lawless,Carmeletta Ofterheide, Jess
Feliciano, Dr Amy Cook and manymore.
Head on over toAggressiveDogcom and click on
the conference tab to learn moreabout the exciting agenda on
everything from advancedconcepts and dog body language

(30:21):
to working with aggression andshelter environments, to genetic
influences on behavior.
Dr Amy Cook will be bringingher entertaining and energetic
personality to the grandreception and cocktail party,
which, by the way, will be livestreamed as well as in person,
and, as usual, you'll find awonderful, kind, caring and
supportive community at theconference, both in person and

(30:43):
online.
I also want to take a moment tothank one of our wonderful
sponsors this year Pets for Vets.
Did you know that approximately1 million shelter animals are
euthanized in the US every year?
At the same time, many of ourcountry's veterans are
experiencing post-traumaticstress disorder, traumatic brain
injury, anxiety and ordepression.

(31:04):
Pets for Vets founder andexecutive director, Clarissa
Black, created a solution forthese problems by rescuing and
training animals for veterans.
Pets for Vets has a uniqueprogram model that customizes
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(31:25):
veteran, based on the nuancedrelationship between animal
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In addition to helping veteransand rescue animals, Clurisr has
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(31:48):
trainers to join ourorganization.
Trainers are able toparticipate anywhere in the US
while receiving stipends,professional development
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Pets for Vets is also seekingnew partnerships with animal
shelters and rescue groups fromaround the country.
For more information, pleasevisit petsforvetscom.

(32:13):
All right, we're back here withDr Sheila Segerson and we were
just talking about the ASVguidelines in terms of it's
really a great package, thatkind of details, all the things
to be considering in the shelterenvironment, as well as the
length of stay we were justtalking about.
So why don't we touch base onthat first and then we'll get
back into the shelterenvironment?
So length of stay, the amountof time regardless oftentimes

(32:38):
the amount of enrichment andexercise and all of these things
we can do.
Sometimes we still see thebehavior deteriorate and you had
mentioned stress of the shelterenvironment.
But what are some furtherthoughts?
Is there more research aboutthis now?
Is there other things that yousee are benefiting the dogs in
this kind of long-term staysituation?

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Yeah, I'll talk about it from the framework of the
Association of ShelterVeterinarians Guidelines for
Standards of Care in AnimalShelters.
Just a little background aboutthe guidelines.
They originally developed in2010, when a group of
experienced shelterveterinarians came together and
developed guidelines for careand shelters just as it's
described, based on research soall the research that we've
accumulated over the years.

(33:24):
We recently revised theguidelines.
I was on the task force for therevision of the guidelines and
so a little over a year agoDecember 2022, got to remember
my years we released the secondedition of the ASV guidelines
and, like you said, there's manydifferent sections to it.

(33:47):
One thing that we talk aboutthroughout the guidelines is
capacity for care and reallythinking about do we have the
capacity to support this animal?
Do we have the capacity to meetthe animal's needs?
And length of stay really,really ties into that.
There's certainly research thattells us that the longer an

(34:08):
animal is in a shelter, the morelikely they are to get
infectious diseases like upperrespiratory infections and
kennel cough and things likethat.
There's also some research thatshows that behavior changes
related to length of stay and,in my personal experience,

(34:30):
certainly see behavior changeover time with longer length of
stay and I was working with ashelter with some quite long
lengths of stay.
It was an organization who hadover 50 dogs that had been in
the organization's care for overa year.
Some of these dogs werecertainly in foster care.
When I took some of these dogsfor short-term foster so to the
hotel I was staying in overnight, some of these dogs had

(34:51):
behaviors that were consistentwith a trauma history or almost
even PTSD-like symptoms in termsof hypervigilance, being super
sensitive to noises, things likethat, where they were on high
alert and made me think, don'tknow if it was true, but they
weren't used to being outside oftheir shelter environment and

(35:13):
out in the world again and itwas really really tough for them
to adjust to it.
And this was an organizationthat was doing a really really
good job of meeting the dog'sneeds and they cared for them
really really well, and anorganization that isn't able to
meet the needs.
Then obviously we see othertypes of signs like spinning and
circling and bouncing againstthe wall and things like that

(35:36):
with longer length of stay, andonce a dog gets to that place it
can be a lot more challengingto help them.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, so it really sells the need for foster homes
and a good foster networkwhenever possible.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, the need for foster homes, for sure, and
really looking at our capacityand paying and looking at the
animals in our care and payingvery close attention to them.
When we're super, super busy,it's easy to deal with fires and
this needs attention and thatneeds attention.
But there's really a lot ofeffort that goes into planning

(36:13):
and paying attention to dogs ona daily basis.
And do we have a plan for thisdog?
What are we doing to help getthis dog out?
That's a super important pieceof what shelters can do.

Speaker 1 (36:25):
What about medication for some of these dogs?
Because people listen to theshow a lot.
We talk about medication a loton this show, but in the shelter
environment it's going to bedifferent.
And what are your thoughts onadministering medication to dogs
?
Is it more common in that kindof situation?
Less common?
More beneficial?

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Great question, and how I talk about medication
these days is very, verydifferent than I talked about
medication 20 years ago.
20 years ago, in the shelterenvironment, I was not using
medication at all.
But now that we are keepingdogs for longer periods of time,
now that we know a lot moreabout trauma and the impact of

(37:08):
trauma on a dog's behavior, weknow that some of the dogs
coming into the shelter have atrauma history.
We also know that the shelteris, as much as we try to make it
a good place for the animals,it is a traumatic environment.
It oftentimes is a traumaticenvironment for the animals who
come into our care.
So, because of that behavior,medication is sometimes an

(37:31):
essential piece to help a normalanimal cope with an abnormal
environment, and so we're notdrugging them to sedate them in
the shelter environment, butwe're using medications to lower
their fear, anxiety and stress,so that we can see the dogs who
they really are.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, and I think it's an important distinction to
note that there's a stigmaaround meds too.
Yeah, and I think it's animportant distinction to note
that there's a stigma aroundmeds too.
You know almost to say like oh,this dog's on medication, so
there's something and I'll putair quotes up again wrong with
this dog, so it almost brandsthem with like a label of oh,
there's a problem with this dogif they're on medication.
But I think we need to reallymove away from that stigma

(38:12):
because oftentimes it's justthis dog needs the medication.
It would be cruel and unusualnot to give this particular dog
meds to help them cope with thatenvironment, would you say
that's a correct statement.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Yeah, that's a great statement to make, and I think
maybe even thinking about COVIDand our behavior and our
experience during the COVIDpandemic can help us to think
about this a lot, because ourlives changed so much during the
pandemic.
We were isolated from peopleDogs in the shelter are isolated

(38:44):
too, but in a much moresignificant way and many of our
sleep patterns changed.
We got depressed, we were a lotmore stressed, and I don't know
what happened in the psychiatryand psychology world for people
, but I'm guessing that moremedications were prescribed to
help people cope with thisunnatural living situation that
we were all dealing with duringthat time.

(39:07):
And so I think the shelterenvironment we can think of
somewhat related to that concept.
It's an unnatural environment.
It's not natural for a dog tolive in a kennel for long
periods of time, and a young,active dog isn't going to do
well in that environment.
That doesn't mean there'ssomething wrong with him.
It just means that we have himin a place that's not good for

(39:29):
him.
And if we are doing everythingwe can, we're doing things like
enrichment, we're doing thingslike trying to find a foster
home.
But while we're trying to findthat foster home and get him
adopted if needed.
We're also doing things likeusing short-term medications and
sometimes longer-termmedications to help them cope

(39:50):
with the anxiety of living in ashelter.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, and anecdotally I mean, I can speak to what
I've seen with medication reallybenefiting dogs in the shelter
environment.
In one organization that Ivisited they take in mostly
fearful dogs and they work withthese dogs to help them become
adoptable.
And we're talking about some ofthese dogs are profoundly
fearful but I would say amajority of the dogs are on

(40:15):
medication or were put on somemedication protocol to a high
degree of success.
So you know, from myobservations I can see just how
beneficial it can be, especiallywith dogs in that particular
behavioral I won't call it acategory but that sort of
presentation of profound fear.
So, yeah, we need to get rid ofthis stigma that can surround

(40:37):
dogs sometimes, or giving dogsmeds right.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah, and it's a challenge in terms of people
being worried about putting theanimal on medication, as well as
a challenge related to concernsthat adopters aren't going to
want to adopt an animal becausethey're on medication, and we
can talk about it in a way thatpeople can understand that this
was a stressful environment forthis animal and once he adapts

(41:04):
to the home environment, we'llbe able to take them off of the
medication.
And if you take the time to getto know people and explain it
to them, my experience is thatpeople are really, really
understanding and you do havethe occasional person who they
take the pet home and they justtake it off the medication.
I've had that happen more timesthan I can count, but, fingers
crossed, they all tend to dowell.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yes, yeah, don't do that.
If you're listening in, listento your veterinarian's advice
about how to make that change.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
And sorry, before you go on, because you said, listen
to that.
And I just want to clarify thatmany of these behavioral
medications are medications thatwe don't want to take a dog off
cold turkey and if we do takethem off all of a sudden, they
can have side effects from it,so we almost always wean them
off of the medication, and sothat's why we talk to our

(41:56):
veterinarian about themedication.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
Yes, yes, very important point to make.
Let's talk about other thingsnow that we can do to help dogs
in the shelter environment withall of these stressors that come
naturally in a foreign placefor many dogs.
There's many beautiful thingsin that guideline the ASV
guidelines about what we can dofrom a behavioral enrichment
standpoint.
So what do you want to diveinto first?
Maybe playgroups, because thatseems like not something that's

(42:21):
attainable for a lot of sheltersI've been in, but it's so
beneficial when I have seen thatimplemented.
So your thoughts there,playgroups in general.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, playgroups can be super beneficial for dogs.
When we are starting aplaygroup program, it's really
important to, number one, havestructure and plans around it,
because anytime we have dogs whodon't know each other
interacting with each other,there is a risk that something
negative can happen and a fightcould break out.
So, having structures and plans, but really paying attention to

(42:51):
the individual dogs.
Playgroups changed my life whenwe first started using them at
the Animal Rescue League ofBoston, probably back around
2010 or so, because I got to goout with the dogs every morning
and hang out with them and I gotto know them so much better and
it was so much fun and the dogsenjoyed it so much and there

(43:11):
were different groups of dogs.
And definitely something werecommend doing is if you have
playgroup groups having types ofdogs that are similar together
and that there's many dogs whodon't want to play with other
dogs but they really enjoy playgroup because it gives them that
choice, it gives them thatfreedom, so it gives them that
time to walk around the playyard and just do their own thing
, which is amazing, that type ofdog sometimes if I force them

(43:36):
into a play group with a bunchof really, really active,
energetic dogs, that dog isgoing to be miserable.
So play groups are great ifwe're doing them thoughtfully
and carefully and payingattention to what the dogs want
and what the dogs are telling us, so that we can give them
access to choice.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yes, and you also see a lot of dogs start to open up
socially with other dogs oncethose playgroups are involved.
So maybe you have some realwallflower kind of dog and an
argument from somebody observingthat but like, oh, that dog
doesn't want to actually be inthe playgroup.
But then after a few sessionssuddenly you have this social
butterfly with other dogs.
And it's kind of interesting tome because sometimes we make as

(44:16):
trainers we'll be like, oh no,that's a bad idea, Don't do that
.
You can see how the dog wantsto avoid it.
But sometimes we have to maybeknow when to push a little bit
to see, give that, make surewe're affording that dog that
opportunity.
So have you seen that similarphenomenon where it's just, you
see, dogs just start to reallybecome social butterflies.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yeah for sure.
Social facilitation is awonderful thing and definitely
have seen many, many dogs who,when they first go into
playgroup, the thought is, ohwow, this is not going to work,
the dog isn't going to do well,and sometimes, even within that
same play group, they completelyturn around.
Sometimes it does take a coupleof times.

(44:54):
Oftentimes it's seeing theother dogs playing and
interacting and nothing badhappening.
That helps them come out oftheir shell.
I've also seen it help in termsof human interaction because
they come out of their shell,they're playing, they're doing
positive things.
Positive welfare is somethingthat we talk about in the ASV

(45:14):
guidelines.
They're doing positive thingsthat help to add good things to
their life and it can changetheir whole attitude about
things.
So, yeah for sure, if the firsttime doesn't go well, I'm going
to be careful about who I'mplacing that dog with.
I don't want to put that dogwith a dog who's going to be
poke, poke, poking at them.
But if we give them time, manydogs say, hey, this is actually

(45:36):
a fun thing.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, and they also.
Some of the other benefits I'vewitnessed and also heard many
times is that the dog starts todog might be somewhat fearful or
reserved around people, butthat handler keeps coming to
their kennel door every singleday to bring them to playgroup.
Suddenly they're their new bestfriend, because that person
predicts the fun event is aboutto happen.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
So it's interesting to see that yeah, both in
private practice and in theshelter environment is with
really, really fearful dogs whodon't want to walk outside, just
taking them to that positiveplace.
So the dog can learn that if Ican get you outside, good things

(46:18):
happen.
And once they learn thatthere's this whole world of fun
things, then they're like ohokay, I can walk through the
shelter, good things are gonnahappen.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Now let's I can walk throughthe shelter.
Good things are going to happen.
Yeah, it's awesome.
Now let's talk about enrichmentitems and spaces.
Some of the really wonderfulthings I've seen is shelters,
creating different substrates,different scents almost like a
snifari in a way, but they'vegot dried shrimp, shells or
people bring in different animalproducts from home and they put
these scents around the yard.
They have all kinds ofdifferent surfaces for the dogs

(46:49):
to walk around on, so they getused to like, say, sand and
water or wading pools or graveland all kinds of different ideas
to keep the dogs enriched andseeking out new experiences,
both from an olfactory and atactile, and a vision sense,
like so many different ways.
So what is something you'veseen that's been really
successful?
Or maybe you have a story aboutenrichment?

Speaker 2 (47:11):
So enrichment is one of those things that I feel like
early on in my career that wasall I ever talked about and I
feel like I don't talk about itthat much nowadays, but it is
such an important thing.
I think two things.
One you mentioned olfactory,and I think olfactory enrichment

(47:32):
is so, so valuable.
I used to do search and rescuewith one of my dogs and I could
give my dog the exact sameamount of exercise, but one was
sniffing to find that lostperson.
The other was just a regularwalk and he was 10 times more
tired from using his brain whilehe was smelling.

(47:55):
And so olfactory enrichment,which sometimes seems like
something that is not reallyhelping and we don't necessarily
have the research, but there'sa lot out there that tells us
that it can really help research, but there's a lot out there
that tells us that it can reallyhelp.
My favorite kind of enrichmentis not always the easiest type

(48:15):
of enrichment and it itunfortunately goes against the
veterinary community a littlebit, in that I love natural
surfaces and exposing dogs tonature and taking them on walks
in nature and taking them onhikes.
So taking them on field tripsaway from the shelter is one of
my favorite favorite things.
One of the ways we can exposethem to at least a little bit of

(48:35):
nature in the shelter arethings like digging pits, where
we take a kiddie pool and putdirt in there and hide treats in
there or hide a stuff conged inthere, so that they have to dig
through the dirt to get to whatthey need.
There's research in people thattells us that nature is very,
very healing for us.

(48:55):
We don't have the same evidencein dogs yet, but it makes sense
that it is, and I certainly seedogs enjoy it.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
And I guess.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
I just thought of a story related to that see dogs
enjoy it.
And I guess I just thought of astory related to that.
So I, when I was working at theAnimal Rescue League of Boston,
we had a group of about threedogs who came from a situation
where they were being kept in abasement for dog fighting.
They'd never seen the light ofday as far as we knew, and one

(49:25):
of the dogs had died and theother dogs we got out of that
environment and one of them,raven, I ended up fostering and
taking to my house and I willnever forget the bringing him to
my house.
I lived in this was inMassachusetts and I lived on a
five acre property that hadtrees and a meadow and a stream

(49:46):
running through it.
It was beautiful and wonderfuland taking Raven, who had lived
in a basement his whole life,out to nature and seeing him
sniff a branch for the firsttime I don't this is very much
anthropomorphizing, but he hadalmost a look of wonder on his
face about just experiencingnature and the world and just so

(50:08):
important.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
Yes, yeah, it really is, and I 100% agree with that,
because when you see a dog gointo an environment that it's
like Disney World to them.
You know that, just so many youknow, we kind of forget the
power of that, the power oftheir nose, and just you just
have to wonder.
All of the experiences they getwhen they've been in often

(50:29):
what's really a barrenenvironment when it comes to
olfactory smells or maybeunpleasant smells even in some
cases, to a world like that.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah, probably in a lot of cases unpleasant because
the chemicals that we use forcleaning and disinfection and
that's why I say I'm antishelter medicine, because
shelter medicine we don't likenature, because you cannot
disinfect nature.
But in the shelter environmentwe do use disinfectants and

(51:00):
there are chemicals that smell,that aren't pleasant, so they're
definitely are negative.
And then also just the smell ofother dogs being fearful and
anxious and of the not thecleanest.
They don't get out as often asthey want to, so having urine
and feces in the kennel.
So lots of unpleasant smells inthe shelter environments,

(51:20):
unfortunately in some situations.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yeah, it's some things we don't think about
because we don't have the samelevel of sense.
So we talked about lots ofdifferent ways of helping dogs
from a behavioral well-beingstandpoint.
So we talked about enrichmentand social experiences with both
humans and other dogs playgroups, exercise, good nutrition
, of course, is something wedidn't talk about, but

(51:42):
addressing underlying medicalissues, all these things that we
can really help with dogs.
But you mentioned earlier sleep.
That's another one I don'tthink gets talked about often
and why that's so importantsleep and rest throughout the
day and also, of course,overnight.
What are some things shelterscan do to increase the
likelihood for good rest in adog?
Good amount of sleep.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
Yeah, so some of Dr Lisa Gunter's research suggests
that sleep is one of the biggestthings that dogs are missing in
the shelter environment and oneof the best ways that, besides
getting them on field trips,getting them to spend a little
bit of time in an office,getting them to foster care
those are all great things, butyou can't help as many dogs by

(52:24):
doing that.
You can help a smaller number ofdogs with that unless you have
an amazing foster program, andso one of the things that I've
seen work really well isbasically creating a nap time
for the shelter dogs for twohours per day, where it's a time
where everyone in the shelterknows that it's the dog's nap
time and so it's a time of daywhere everybody works on their

(52:44):
paperwork and things, so that wedo everything we can to
decrease the likelihood thatpeople are going to be walking
through the kennels and gettingthe dogs all excited, so the
dogs can sleep and rest and takea nap, and I've seen many
organizations do this really,really successfully, and we
don't have research showing thatit helps, but we all know how
important sleep is.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
So now I have a question for you.
If you had to choose one thing,you could wave your magic wand
and every single shelter in theworld is going to have this
aspect of all the things we'rejust talking about put in place.
What would it be?
Would it be the play groups?
Would it be the enrichment?
Would it be make sure they getenough sleep?
What would be your number oneanswer?
Maybe it's a trick question.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
I don't know.
Yeah, that's a really, reallydifficult one, but I would say
that time with people would bethe biggest one for me.
There's a lot of research outthere that tells us that
spending time with people really, really helps.
Dogs and play groups are greatbecause we can get a number of

(53:46):
dogs out at once and people timeis oftentimes more one-on-one,
so it is certainly more timeintensive.
But there are so many differentways people can interact.
We can do quiet time wherewe're just hanging out with the
dogs, which is super, superimportant.
We can do activities, we can dotraining.
We can do so many differentthings and our dogs are social
animals and we want these dogsto live in a home with people.

(54:08):
So spending time with people isso, so important, difficult to
provide, and that's why ourvolunteers are so important and
I love our volunteers so much.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
I do too, Because I know just I and I love the folks
that have to work with thevolunteers as well, because I
know that can be a challenge formy travels.
You know, maintaining andtraining volunteers, making sure
everybody's safe, making surethe schedules work out it's a
challenge in its own, but keepon doing what you're doing.
Everybody out there that doeshave a volunteer program,
because I just see so manybenefits versus not having one

(54:43):
in place, though I do empathizewith the challenges of that as
well, yeah.
So let's change topics a littlebit here, because I do want to
talk about this, even thoughit's a difficult topic, and
we've had episodes in the pastabout behavioral euthanasia and
those difficult decisions.
But I think it's important toalso understand the folks in the
shelter world.

(55:03):
We often view them as like, oh,they don't really have an
attachment, or they're justeuthanizing dogs or they're just
going by numbers, but so manytimes they're seeing these dogs
day in and day out, or they growan attachment to a particular
dog or one that may not bedeemed adoptable or safe, but
they grow attached to that dogand when that difficult decision
is decided, I guess, by theorganization, then how much of a

(55:27):
detrimental effect that canhave, how much difficulty and
stress that can place on theteam or the person that's bonded
with that dog.
So I kind of want to talk aboutthat a little bit more, and
also with people or, you know,pet guardians that also have to
face that decision.
So I guess my question issupport for those that are going
through that decision, whetherit's the shelter staff or a

(55:49):
person in the shelterenvironment having to these dogs
.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
These dogs are their families.
Many of us who work in thesheltering world have multiple
dogs and would do anything to beable to adopt that next one dog

(56:18):
that we love, but we can't,because the dogs we have in our
home don't want any more dogs inour home environment, and so
these are.
These are dogs, are our family,family, and yet we live in a
world where we don't have a safeplace for some of these dogs to
go.
I work with the hope thatsomeday things are going to be

(56:40):
different, but right now thereare dogs who we don't have a
safe place for them to go, andwhen we do make this very, very
difficult decision, it's really,really tough and shelters when
they're coming close to makingthis decision, especially an
organization that doesn't makethe decision.
Often.
Oftentimes there's meetings anddiscussions and everybody is

(57:03):
allowed to provide input andoffer suggestions.
Have you thought about doing X?
Have you thought about callingthe previous owner?
Have you thought about callingthe foster person?
Have we done all this?
Have we looked into whetherthere's another organization
that can meet the animal's needs?
So part of the support isallowing people to be a part of

(57:24):
things and understanding why thedecision is being made and that
no one wants it to happen.
But we don't have another,better option for the dog.
So helping people to understandand then being there and
supporting them when it happens.
I just met with an organizationearlier today that is coming
close to euthanizing a dog who'sbeen in their care for a year

(57:48):
and a half and they love himdearly.
And this is a dog who, in theshelter, is a wonderful,
wonderful, wonderful dog.
He's a happy dog and peoplelove him.
But he's been adopted andreturned four or five times
because in a home environment hedoesn't do well.
He bites.
In a home environment they'renot significant bites, but he

(58:09):
does bite and after beingreturned that many times it's
just really really challenging.
He's not safe to place.
They've come to that decisionand so what I did during that
meeting, part of what I didduring that meeting today, was
talk to them about the fact thatyou have done everything you
can and we understand that thisis difficult and we're all here
to talk about and support eachother so that we're all on the

(58:32):
same team instead of everybodyfighting with each other about
it.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
That's such an incredibly important point is
the support that's needed and towork as a team on the decision
making, because sometimes I'msure feels that there is no
support if somebody especiallyif an outsider or somebody
looking at it from an outsidelens is just pointing fingers,
and that unfortunately happensjust so often in our communities
.

(58:56):
Unfortunately, with social media, you see people pointing
fingers at a particularorganization for oh, they're
just euthanizing all their dogsor they euthanize for behavior
when they're not aware of allthose subtle decisions and the
critical thought that needs togo into a decision like that.
It's kind of you know you and Iwere chatting earlier about
when a pet guardian brings theirdog to their veterinarian for

(59:20):
behavioral euthanasia but theveterinarian refuses to do so,
and a lot of times in thoseconversations the fingers start
pointing and you know peoplestart throwing blame or this
person's bad for not doing this,or this person's bad for
considering it.
But there's much more that goesinto that and the empathy
that's needed to understand whysomebody might be making that
decision or maybe theveterinarian refusing to do so.

(59:42):
And I think you would be theperfect person to talk about
that because you are aveterinarian.
You also are a behaviorist withtraining background and you're
also a pet guardian, so you seeit through, I'm sure, all of
those lenses Do you want to talkmore about that?

Speaker 2 (59:53):
and then the different views, that those
different roles might have andhave heard stories of people
going to their veterinarian fora dog with very significant
behavior challenges.
That has harmed the people, andthe people have done everything

(01:00:16):
they can going to finally makethat horrible decision to
euthanize the dog and theveterinarian saying no.
And I've been doing a lot ofthinking about that lately and
remembering that I graduatedfrom vet school a long time ago,
back in 1996.
And back then we had a really,really different world when it

(01:00:37):
came to euthanasia and when Iwas in my ethics class in
veterinary school we were taughtthat when a person comes to you
asking you to euthanize theirdog or their cat, you need to
really dive into and find outwhy they are euthanizing that
animal, to make sure that it'sthe right decision and not just

(01:00:59):
automatically euthanizing anyanimal that comes in, which I
think that is still valuable tothis day.
But I think sometimesveterinarians are so busy they
want to do what's right fortheir community and when a
person comes in to euthanizetheir dog and they don't have
all that history of what thatperson has been through with the

(01:01:21):
dog and so they start that samequestioning process of oh he
bit someone.
A veterinary behaviorist canhelp that A behavior consultant
can help, that you need to go,do X, y and Z and I think, as
you said, having thosediscussions, taking time to get
to know people and talk topeople and understand where they

(01:01:42):
are.
I am someone that once myclient or friend has made a
euthanasia decision, my job isto support them in that decision
because I know and I try to saythis without crying I know how
hard it is for them to have tohad come to that decision, and

(01:02:07):
I've heard that it does happen alot more nowadays, and so our
younger veterinarians have adifferent educational process
than I did.
But that empathy and thatunderstanding and getting to
know what the person has done,so that we are supporting people
and recognizing that there aresome animals that are really
really challenging to live with,which is hard to accept, but

(01:02:29):
it's true.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Yes, yes, and remembering that every situation
is so unique because the samedog might have a different
outcome in two different homes.
The same person might have adifferent outcome with two
different dogs.
I mean, it's just so manyvariables to consider and that's
, I think, a good take-homelesson from this episode is just
to remember to empathize withsomebody's situation, Because

(01:02:53):
you never know the full storyunless you're deeply involved
with the case.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Yeah, I think that's true, related to people, and
that's true related to dogs aswell, to dogs as well, and that
so many animals that I've gottento know over the years that on
paper, if I'm just looking attheir history, I think why is
the shelter considering placingthis dog in a home?

(01:03:20):
He has severe separationanxiety and has destroyed three
different homes.
And then you go to that shelterenvironment and you meet that
dog and, yes, the dog does haveseparation anxiety but he's also
a wonderful, wonderful dog.
So, taking the time to get toknow people, taking the time to
get to know the dogs in our care, so that we can understand them

(01:03:44):
and get to know them and learnfrom them and try to make the
best decisions we can for ourpets and for our communities.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
Excellent, Excellent way to wrap up.
Sheila, thank you so much forcoming on the show and educating
us about so many things to lookfor in the shelter environment.
It was really great chattingwith you, even through the
difficult topics here, but Iwould love to find out and for
the listeners as well what areyou up to this year?
Where can people find you?

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
So I, as mentioned earlier, I work for Maddie's
Fund.
Our website is maddiesfundorg.
We also have an online forum,which is maddiespetforumorg, and
Maddie's Pet Forum is a placewhere animal sheltering people
and rescue people and people whosupport animals out in the
community can come together.

(01:04:31):
It's a free online forum totalk about issues that we've
talked about today and reallyanything related to helping
communities and our animals.
So that's maddyspetforumorg.
And then we also have Maddie'sUniversity, where we have free
online courses to help to trainand help animal shelter staff

(01:04:54):
and volunteers to learn about areally wide variety of topics,
and we have recorded webcasts.
We also have courses in therethat take longer.
We also have instructor-ledcourses where there's an
instructor who's teaching youevery week and everything is
free.
So I really encourage everybodyto check out Mattis University

(01:05:14):
as well.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
And I'll be sure to link to those in the show notes,
as usual, sheila, thank you somuch.
I really appreciate you comingon and I hope to see you again
in the future.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
Thanks so much, Mike.
It was great to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
It's always wonderful chatting with the veterinary
behaviorists who have beenguests on the podcast, and I'm
truly glad to have theopportunity to discuss sometimes
difficult but necessary topicswith Sheila.
She really is a gift to ourcommunity and offers such a
unique but crucial perspective,having experience in so many
facets of animal care.
I look forward to continuedcollaborations with Sheila and

(01:05:49):
Maddie's Fund as well, and don'tforget to head on over to
aggressivedogcom for moreinformation about helping dogs
with aggression, from theAggression in Dogs Master Course
to webinars from world-renownedexperts and even an annual
conference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression in dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Agg aggression bonus
episodes that you can subscribeto.

(01:06:11):
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggressions, such as resource
guarding, dog to dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe on the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends

(01:06:48):
you.