Unleashing Peace: Restoring Harmony in Intra-Household Aggression with Sarah Stremming

Handling dog-to-dog aggression in the home can feel like navigating through a minefield, but guess what? We've got just the right person to guide you - my friend and colleague Sarah Stremming, a Certified Dog Behavior Consultant with nearly two decades of experience under her belt. She's here to unravel the complexity of dog aggression, spotlighting common triggers like resource competition and dog incompatibility and the fascinating role of humans in these cases.

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ABOUT SARAH:
Sarah Stremming, the Cog Dog Coach is a Certified Dog Behavior Consultant (IAABC) with a bachelors of science degree in psychology from Colorado State University. She has been in the field of dog behavior and training for nearly two decades and has been competing in the sports of agility and obedience for even longer. Known for her popular podcast Cog Dog Radio, Sarah owns and operates The Cognitive Canine where she works complex behavior cases, runs a dynamic members platform, offers online courses and webinars, mentors colleagues, and speaks globally. Her passion is helping people and dogs live their best lives side by side. When she is not working you can find her deep in the woods of the Pacific Northwest behind two border collies and an Icelandic sheepdog.
https://thecognitivecanine.com/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Having two or more dogs that don't get along under
one roof can be one of the mostdifficult types of aggression
cases to work with.
The constant stress of managingthe dogs and worrying about
when the next fight might happencan really take their toll on
even the best managed situations.
Sarah, a streaming and amazingbehavior consultant and fellow
podcaster, joins me for thisepisode all about dog-to-dog

(00:26):
aggression.
Sarah, also known as the CogDogCoach, is a certified dog
behavior consultant through theIWAC, with a Bachelor's of
Science degree in Psychologyfrom Colorado State University.
She has been in the field ofdog behavior and training for
nearly two decades and has beencompeting in sports of agility
and obedience for even longer.
Known for her popular podcastCogDog Radio, sarah owns and

(00:50):
operates the Cognitive Canine,where she works complex behavior
cases, runs a dynamic membersplatform, offers online courses
and webinars, mentors colleaguesand speaks globally.
Her passion is helping peopleand dogs live their best lives
side by side.
When she's not working, you canfind her deep in the woods of
the Pacific Northwest behind twoborder collies and an Icelandic

(01:12):
sheepdog, and if you areenjoying the bitey end of the
dog, you can support the podcastby going to aggressivedogcom
with a variety of resources tolearn more about helping dogs
with aggression issues,including the upcoming
Aggression in Dogs conference,which Sarah is going to be
speaking at.
That's happening from September29th through October 1st 2023

(01:32):
in Chicago, illinois, with bothin-person and online options.
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression in Dogs Master
course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
Hey guys, welcome back to theBitey End of the Dog.
I am so excited for this weekbecause I have a fellow

(01:55):
podcaster here, sarah Strumming,cockdog Radio.
Let me tell you about Cockdog.
I've been listening to thatsince 2016.
I think you started it right,sarah.
Yeah, way before I even startedthe Bitey End of the Dog.
So it's kind of an honor for meto have Sarah here and we have
kind of dual podcasts in the dogtraining space.
This is going to be fun, sowelcome to the show, sarah.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Thank you so much, Mike.
I'm very excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah, and we're going to be kind of having a
conversation between twoconsultants and trainers that
work a lot of Aggression cases.
So I love kind of the format ofthis show because I don't get
to usually do that.
I love to, of course, hear fromall of our guests, but I think
we're going to have a lot ofmutual things we can chat about.
And we're going to be chattingabout intra-household dog-dog

(02:40):
aggression, so dogs that haveissues with each other in the
home.
We can kind of talk aboutdog-dog aggression in general.
But I think it'll be fun tokind of dive into the nuances
that happen in intra-householddog-dog aggression.
So let's jump right into why dodogs fight in the home or why
do dogs have conflicts with eachother in the home?
What are your experiences there?
What do you think are some ofthe most common reasons for it?

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Well, for one thing, I don't know about you, but I've
never had a fight with a personthat I lived with.
I mean, it's just completelyunnatural for anybody to have
conflict with anybody they livewith, right.
So all sarcasm, obviously.
So many reasons this happens,so many reasons For me.
Commonly I see it happening dueto just straight up

(03:27):
incompatibility, sometimes withthe dogs that we ask to live
with each other.
That's a big one in kind of mypersonal realm of I work with a
lot of people who are dog sportscompetitors and if you've got a
house of two or three labs orgoldens and they're lovely, but
you decide to like upgrade yoursport experience and get

(03:49):
something a little bit moreintense, it's really common for
that more intense dog tocompletely ruin your life and
your household.
So that can happen.
But other reasons, reallyreally commonly, just it's all
about resources, right, really,really often it's about
resources.
Sometimes that biggest resourceis the person.

(04:12):
That can be a really huge causefor conflict.
Again, really commonly in mywork we'll have a dog that is
extremely bonded and attached toone human in the household and
another dog who's extremelybonded and attached to the other
one, and they will kind of formthis I think Karen overall
calls it in her textbookactually Alliance Aggression is

(04:34):
what she labels it and it's thedogs kind of draw an alliance
with one person and they're likewe got to get rid of this other
guy, right, and things likethat, as well as trying to keep
multiple dogs of the same sex inthe same household, and I mean
we could go on and on for thecauses.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
So yeah, definitely all the things you're talking
about resonate with me, becauseI see a lot of the same things.
I would say resources isdefinitely at the top of the
list and it makes sense becauseespecially more paving dogs into
a smaller space or we'rebringing in more dogs, and
another common factor I see toois the younger dog having issues
with the older dog or the newerdog to the home also, do you

(05:15):
see kind of the same thing?

Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, for sure.
I think older dog, younger dogreally really common for the
younger dog to just kind of beobnoxious, for the older dog to
say, can you stop beingobnoxious?
And for the younger dog to kindof say, who are you calling
obnoxious?
And then it kind of snowballsand as well as yes.
Anytime you're introducing anew dog, there is risk for

(05:40):
conflict developing, and I thinkan average pet owner just has
no idea how high that riskactually is.
And so we just we throw themall together and we hope for the
best, and hoping for the bestis just really often not the way
to go.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, and we should
probably talk about first thestrategies that people should be
aware of when it comes tomanaging these conflicts,
because that in itself can besuper difficult.
Right, because we live with thedogs 24 seven and so it's much
different of kind of a muchdifferent case than dogs that
maybe just have issues withpeople coming over to the home.
This is a lot easier to managethose cases versus dogs that are

(06:21):
living under the same roof.
And then when you have multiple, multiple dog homes, it gets
even more complicated.
So what are some of your go-tostrategies when you're working
with clients that have you knowtheir dogs are fighting?
Let's say there is a history offighting or injurious behaviors
happening in the home.
Sure, what are some of yourgo-to strategies for that?

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Well, I want to jump backwards just a tiny bit.
You said resources are kind ofthe biggest thing that you see,
and I think that that'scompletely true and that doesn't
need to be the problem.
And usually I think there'slike little low lying conflict
that then makes resources aproblem because of two dogs.
Like if you and I are sittingat a dinner table and we're

(07:02):
having dinner and my phone issitting on the table and you
like reach for your drink, I'mnot like snatching my phone
because I think you're going totake it, because I don't think
you're going to take it.
But if I kind of think that youare, like if I kind of don't
trust you and I kind of thinkyou're a jerk that's going to
steal my stuff, I am snatchingthe phone away.

(07:24):
So it's.
It does come back to that lowlying relationship because if we
do trust that you're not takingmy stuff and that there's
plenty of stuff for everybody,that's kind of where we need to
begin.
And then, of course, when we'rehaving big real conflict, I
like to talk about layers ofmanagement and layers of
separation.
So I might have a really severecase where we require two hard

(07:49):
barriers all the time, and Italk about hard and soft
barriers.
So a hard barrier is going tobe an actual physical barrier
between the dogs.
So that can be a gate, it canbe a muzzle, it can be a door.
Soft barriers are going to besomething that could potentially
be breached or something like atether, where one dog is going

(08:10):
to be able to pass by but theother dog's not going to be able
to move.
Soft barriers can also just bespace, like we're outside and
we're far apart.
There's a lot of dogs thatcan't be together in a room, who
can be together outside on atrail, so I would kind of call
that a soft barrier.
So I'm always going toimplement hard barriers and soft
barriers and when we firststart our work we're going to
have a lot of them.

(08:30):
There's going to be a lot ofbarriers going on.
I'm a huge fan of muzzletraining.
I'm a huge fan of tethers andgates.
I went to a friend of mine thatworked in the big cat
department of a major zoo and Iwent and got to see behind the
scenes and had so manyepiphanies about how we can set
up management for our clients,because they don't take anything

(08:50):
for granted.
They don't say to everybody.
Now listen, if you don't closethese gates, bad things are
going to happen because peopleforget.
So they just acknowledge thatpeople are going to forget.
And now we have color codedsystems and signs that tell
everybody what needs to happen,so that a lion doesn't get into
the same area as a keeper, etcetera.

(09:12):
So we can go as intense as weneed to.
However, I've had cases where Iwas like, how about we just put
a baby gate right here, and whenyou're eating, the dogs are on
either side of them, and it waslike life changing.
So I definitely had that.
But then I've also had like andnow we're wearing basket

(09:33):
muzzles if we are outsidetogether, which we're allowed to
be, and then if we're insidetogether, there is a barrier
between us and we are supervised.
And there are so many differentlayers of management that we
can implement, big ones beingsimply avoiding access to
resources when dogs are neareach other.
That gets complicated when theresource is the human or the

(09:54):
kitchen or a certain doorway,easier if it's like we need to
have Kong time in crates.
So there's so many differentways that we could manage right,
but it's looking specificallyat the case, specifically at
what's going on and what thisperson can do and what they need
to do, and then the first thingwe've got to do is just triage
the whole situation and put upwhatever barriers need to be put

(10:16):
up.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, and I love how you kind of differentiate
between soft and hard layers.
I never heard that before, butthat's actually a great
distinction, because I thinkwhat happens is that some
clients kind of rely on softbarriers and they forget about
those things can be breached, orthey're not quite as resistant
to management failures as someof the other things that we put
in place.

(10:37):
So what about homes, though,where it becomes really
difficult to put some of thosethings you were talking about in
place, like when there's lotsof kids running around or maybe
you have a partner in therelationship that doesn't quite
listen and I also love that youkind of mentioned the cues and
the environment.
We can have Actually shut thisgate, or whatever it is that we
can do to help sort of encouragesuccess with these cases, but

(11:00):
what do you do when you get intosome of those issues where it's
very difficult to actuallymanage because of the
environment or the livingdynamic?

Speaker 2 (11:07):
Sure.
So those are going to be caseswhere, depending on how serious
it is, if these dogs have hadmultiple fights, if dogs have
gone to the veterinarian forthese fights, if people have had
to go to the doctor because ofthese fights, we have a real
conversation about what's goingto be possible for you and I

(11:27):
like to lay all the options onthe table.
This specific problem ofintra-housel dog aggression is
probably the issue that bringsup rehoming for me the most
among all of them.
With my clients, I had a recentcase, I think a couple of years
ago, where I laid it all out.
I said here's all the problems.
It was two females that werefighting.

(11:48):
They were multiple that visits,big, big injuries really
specifically triggered by anevent, and it just snowballed
from there and they did wind upplacing one of the dogs with
another family member and theycan still see the dog, can still
go on walks with the dog ifthey choose.
And now this is just not anissue and basically because I

(12:11):
laid it all out and I said thisis the kind of management we're
talking about and it felt liketoo big of a quality of life
change for the entire family andso then a choice was made.
I don't love that being theonly option, but I do love
putting it on the table for theclients to make a choice.
So I'm not saying, well, thisis what you have to do.

(12:31):
I'm saying this is what's goingto be necessary for the outcome
that you're interested in.
If that doesn't feel doable foryou, then we need to talk about
other outcomes that are goingto be acceptable for you.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
That's a really great way to frame it as well and
help the clients understand whatthey're facing.
You mentioned quality of lifeas well.
It has to be a quality of lifefor the animals as well as the
humans that are in the home.
I'd love to just jump rightinto that.
I know we wanted to talk aboutlet's talk about that the human
side of it and theconsiderations.

(13:07):
So we're talking about just howmuch management and safety
needs to be in play, becausewe're living with these dogs
24-7 in some cases, and there'sa lot of rabbit holes we can go
down here, but what is probablythe number one thing you see
that is stressful for clientsthe experiences in your work
with the human side of theequation in these cases.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, honestly, if your dogs have had fights and
you have witnessed them, that istraumatic for us to see and so
when you're living at kind of alow level anxiety place as the
person of at any moment, a dogfight could happen.
That is a really not greatplace for anybody to have to

(13:47):
live and I have so much respectfor these poor clients who they
can't even think rationallyabout it.
They can't even think it's OKbecause there's a gate and one
dog is just sleeping and theother dog is over here.
Because they're constantlyworried about it, because as far
as they're concerned, theremaybe weren't warning signs or
there wasn't a lead up and itjust sort of happened.
I don't know about you, but thedogfights that I've seen or

(14:11):
been involved in that involvedmy own dogs were so emotionally
damaging that I would changeanything to have that not happen
again.
Versus, I've been, unfortunately, around plenty of dogfights
that did not involve dogs of myown and I could utilize my

(14:33):
strategies to break up thisfight and make everything fine
and move on with my life and gohome and sleep.
But when it's like my babythat's in there, it's so, so
hard and I think we have toremember that dogs are people's
family members and when you havetwo family members that are
going to harm each other, it isreally emotionally damaging and

(14:56):
difficult.
It is a really really hardsituation for people to live in,
and so, just acknowledging thatupfront, I think so often
people feel like they arefailures, that they should have
or could have done somethingdifferent and now their dogs are
going to hurt each other andit's just.
It's one of the mostemotionally fraught types of
cases that I work on.
I don't know if that trackswith your experience as well.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, definitely.
You bring up so many goodpoints there and the emotional
challenge of it and the anxietyreally that can it can cause,
because you don't know when thenext ball is going to drop, so
to speak.
Exactly, and so that's why Isee the same thing with many of
my clients, in that they're justso nervous about it and that
can impact things likemanagement.
It can impact their likelihoodto actually do any of the things

(15:40):
we suggest as trainers andconsultants.
They're like you know, I don'tknow.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
That sounds great Like on paper and the plan.
They're literally scared sothey can't do anything.
It's true, yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Exactly and we have to empathize with that.
We have to be especially astrainers and consultants.
If we tell them, you know, hey,go do this or do this plan and
have your dogs next to eachother here they are stationed,
or whatever.
That can be very, verydifficult and challenging for
some clients because of theirconcern or their worry, and it
is so much different when it'syour own dogs, right, it's just.
Even when I had foster dogs andthen sometimes they would maybe

(16:12):
scuffle with one of my dogs,it's tough, it's like you're
really important, and even as apro trainer, like we're both
trainers, we're both equipped toknow how to play dog fight and
things like that.
It's still different.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
It's really terrible and it's really so.
I think it's just so importantfor us to acknowledge how
emotionally difficult anddraining this is for everybody
involved Certainly the dogs, butoften much more so for the
people.
I mean, I have clientssometimes who rearrange their
entire life to make sure thatthese two dogs can still live in

(16:46):
the same home.
And now the dogs are finebecause they like live on
different floors and they've gotbasically their own condos and
everything is cool.
But this poor person kind ofstill lives with that low level
anxiety, that low level stressof what if and what if somebody
messes this up.
And so that's where I think forme it is so important that if

(17:08):
these dogs are going to stay inthe same home, that simply
implementing management is notgood enough.
And I love management, and if Ican provide somebody with a
simple management solution for abehavior problem, that's my
favorite thing to do.
That people love it.
It feels solved to them.
Management is not training,management is great.

(17:31):
And these are cases where Ihave kind of two requirements we
have to be able to keepeverybody safe with management
and we have to get to a placewith Bmod that if that
management fails, nobody's goingto die and hopefully nobody's
going to get seriously hurteither.
So that's really reallyimportant to me that those goals

(17:51):
are met in these cases.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yes, yes, yes, and I completely echo everything
you're saying there.
I think management can be thesolution.
But often people criticize thatlike, oh, it's just management,
it's just management.
But that's actually sometimes avery viable solution that a lot
of clients don't even know theycan do.
It could be as simple asfeeding the dog separately,
which is like a no brainer to us.
But sometimes people don'tthink about that or they might

(18:16):
have a sort of bias towardsdoing certain things in a
certain way, like feeding thedogs together, feeding this one
first and feeding that onesecond, and all these kind of
belief systems.
But sometimes it is just good.
Management will solve the issue, and the other side of the coin
, too, is ensuring going back tothat good quality of life when
we are suggesting management,because we can manage the heck
out of things right, we can sayall right, let's just stick your

(18:39):
dog into, create separate areasof the house that they'll never
fight again.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
But that's not good quality of life, of course, for
the end of the day, we have toas practitioners welfare has to
be the number one concern thatwe have.
Therefore, management solutionsthat reduce welfare are not
acceptable.
So if we are now spending themajority of our day in a crate,
in my opinion that's notacceptable, and so we have to

(19:05):
think of different solutions.
And that's again where we'retalking about goals with clients
and we're talking aboutacceptable outcomes to clients,
and I don't know very manyclients for whom that would be
an acceptable outcome either.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
So those are all really really important points
that you're making, sarah, and Ithink we should also kind of
dive into what can we do to helpclients with that anxiety
component.
Now, we're not talking aboutbeing therapists, but, for
instance, one thing I do is, ifthe client is equipped with
knowing how to break up adogfight, for instance, we give
them the tools and strategies toif something is to happen.

(19:41):
Now you have the tools andstrategies to actually get in
there and break up this fight ordeal with these conflicts where
previously maybe it was just sonerve wracking or maybe worse,
they've been bitten by their owndogs or they had a tough time
separating their dogs.
So that's one strategy I findthat can be super helpful.
And then even setting them upwith things like fight kits I

(20:01):
call them, but basically thosetools spread around the house
almost like fire extinguishers,so somebody that's had a fire or
had a medical issue, and thenyou have the first aid kits or
the fire extinguishers sort oflaid out in easy access.
I do find that that helpsreduce some of the anxiety in
the situation.
So what are some of yourstrategies?

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Well, definitely, equipping them with ways to deal
with the conflict if it happensis kind of my number one thing,
like you said, and that comesback to just when you're feeling
anxious about something, it'sbecause you maybe feel like you
don't have control over theoutcomes, and so helping them to
feel like they have morecontrol over the outcomes is the

(20:40):
way that I do that.
So, absolutely, having themplant spray shield in different
places around the house, or Isometimes have clients who just
wear it around full on fightkits, like with a bite stick, et
cetera, depending on the levelof fighting that we've got going
on in the house otherstrategies to help just kind of

(21:01):
interrupt what could cause anissue.
So one of the things will be theperson is watching the dogs and
maybe the dogs are having aninteraction, maybe it's even
through a barrier, but theperson is feeling this anxiety
rising up in their chest, right,and I don't want that to happen
, right?
So I want them to be empoweredto stop this interaction if

(21:21):
necessary.
So that's where we train thedog some skills, and there is
nothing that empowers my humanclients more, I don't think,
than when we train the dog someskills and then the person uses
the skills in one of thosemoments where they're feeling a
little bit out of control andthen the skills work.

(21:43):
So when your dog is maybelooking at the other dog with a
side eye and they're stiffeningup, but you call them to do a
nose target and they do, that'slife-changing, because now you
feel like you do have someability to affect your outcomes
and then that will reduce youranxiety overall.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yes, yes, I love that and it's just.
I do think that once clientscan figure out especially when
they start reading their dogsRight, they can see the body
language in no winter orinterrupt way ahead of time,
right before they might havebeen missing this, the micro
signals or the little momentswhen the dogs are kind of
talking to each other.
But they didn't see that before.
But we helped them kind oflearn when to see that and how

(22:25):
to interrupt, and I highly agreeit's so empowering for them,
it's a, it's highly reinforcingfor them.
We'd be like, hey, I solvedthis conflict before it actually
exploded, right?
So also on the side of thehuman side of the equation, I
would love to get your thoughtson when people are disagreeing.
So you know you have two dogsdisagreeing about something, but
then you have the clients indisagreement.

(22:47):
I find this especially truewith relationships that you know
.
Let's say, somebody let youhave a couple.
They've been together a coupleyears, but they've had their
dogs for like five or six years,so they've had their dogs
longer than they've actually hadtheir relationship, and then
they move in together and thedogs are fighting.
So there's obviously sometimesfavoritism sometimes or
disagreement about what to do.
So how do you navigate thoseconversations when you run into

(23:11):
it?

Speaker 2 (23:11):
really tough one and really common because that's a
really common cause for conflictbetween adult dogs is when two
adult humans with adult dogsmove in together and now you
know they're trying to have thislittle happy family and the
dogs are like wait, we had itgood without these yahos.
It's a really, really trickyone to navigate and so where I

(23:33):
Try to come at it because I amcertainly not a marriage
counselor and sometimes I feellike we need one to come on in
and also be in this case, butthat's not a service that I have
set up yet so I tend to try toget everybody just on the same
page with the desired outcomes.
And if we agree on the desiredoutcomes, then we can put in

(23:56):
strategies towards thoseoutcomes.
It is really challenging whenSomebody has very strong
feelings about well, this dog isa problem and my dog isn't, and
so again we have to come tocommon ground.
One of the things that I do inthese cases, which is part of

(24:16):
the behavior mod strategy, butit helps the people is I insist
on the people kind of swappingdogs for certain activities.
So like if partner one hassparky and partner two has
fluffy, partner one is going totake fluffy on the evening walk
and vice versa, and they'regoing to take each other's dog

(24:39):
to nosework class and they'regoing to take each other's dog
to do some other enrichingactivities.
This is part of my behavior,mod, but it also helps the
person to bond with this otherdog and so they don't just see
this other dog as the enemy andthe problem.
And, truly, if we can't get tothis desired outcome being the
same for both people, that iskind of no longer in my hands,

(25:02):
mike, like that is in themarriage counselor's hands.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yes, yes, really excellent solutions in some
cases and also strategies.
Not taking sides is reallyimportant, as the as a trainer
Consultant or for any trainerslistening in is very important
not to actually take any side.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
Because sometimes we want to.
Sometimes, in fact I would saymost of the time the trainer has
a better relationship with oneof the owners than the other one
.
I would say that's pretty muchtrue across the board.
Probably it's the person whocalled you in the first place,
it's the person who wasinterested in hiring you and
it's really, really importantthat you make sure everybody

(25:40):
feels very heard and that youpoint out good qualities of both
dogs, etc.
Like, yeah, all those littletricky Social things that we
need to be very, very carefulabout, we need to be thinking
about.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yes, definitely, and I love the common goal strategy
too, because if you have thatcommon endpoint or sort of an
endpoint in mind, we cannavigate the nuances of getting
there.
But it's important that we are,we all agree on, like this is
what we want for the outcome.
It's those little parts inbetween we often have to adjust
for in between sessions orduring sessions that as we work

(26:13):
towards that goal right.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yes, I mean it's.
I Do think that dealing withintra-household aggression is
one of the most complex thingsthat we deal with, for a variety
of reasons, but not the leastof which being the fact that you
will be dealing with somecomplex human relationships most
of the time.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
All right, we're gonna jump into the next topic
of the behavior changestrategies we use in these cases
, but first I'm gonna take alittle break for a word from our
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(26:53):
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(30:31):
their Instagram and a way todonate.
All right, I'm back with noneother than Sarah Strumming from
CogDog Radio and a number ofother things as well, and we are
talking about intra-householddog-dog aggression and we're
going to jump into thestrategies we use in these cases

(30:54):
, the behavior change strategiesand what works, because
typically a lot of the trainersand consultants listening in
might use a differentialreinforcement strategy or a
counter conditioning strategy,but I want to dive deeper into
those details and what else youmight use.
So let's talk about what youuse first and kind of like,
maybe start with what youtypically use and then we can
jump into some of the moreadvanced stuff.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah.
So the first thing, like wetalked about, I'm going to do,
is I'm always going to set up amanagement strategy that keeps
everybody safe.
Oftentimes that strategy isgoing to have a lot of hard
barriers involved.
One of my goals is always to bethat the dogs kind of still
exist in the same house or space.

(31:36):
If we actually do put them onbasically different planets or
on different floors, or they'reeven in different buildings on
the same property, we are notgoing to have as much success
getting back to a moreintegrated space.
So I like those hard barriers,but I like them to still be very
much aware that the other oneexists and then from there, the

(31:58):
first things I'm going to do areactually not going to look a
whole lot like training at all.
It's going to be two differentthings.
One is that I call sharedenjoyment activities, so you
could call it whatever you wantto call it, but I call it shared
enjoyment, which is basicallythe dogs are going to do stuff
they like and they're going todo the things they like with the

(32:19):
other one nearby, so they knowthe other one is there.
They can see it if that'spossible.
I've definitely had cases wherejust the smell and sound of the
other dog was like pushing it,and so we needed to have a
visual barrier.
Shared enjoyment can be they'reboth having a puzzle toy,
they're both even having theirdinner or having.
They often are having aresource.

(32:40):
This is important because Ihave so many barriers and so
much management in place thatnobody's going to get near
anybody's stuff.
You're just both having yourstuff and you're nearby, you're
near each other.
So shared enjoyment can also begoing out and having a walk.
If we have two handlers, so ifone person can handle one dog

(33:03):
and another person can handlethe other, that can get tricky.
If the dogs have a strongalliance to one of the people,
I'll sometimes have them swappedso that they are with their
step parent or whatever.
That also gets tricky if one ofthe dogs has like big
environmental type of reactivity.
I don't want one dog seeing theother dog aggressing, even if

(33:27):
they're aggressing at not them.
So this is where detailedhistory is really important.
We make sure that we understandall of the issues, because
there's almost never just oneissue, and so shared enjoyment
can look a lot like that.
It can look like both dogs areon long lines and harnesses.
They have separate handlers andthere's in a field snuffling
around just being near eachother.

(33:47):
It can look like they're bothenjoying a licking mat across
the room from each other andthey're both tethered and
there's a barrier in betweenthem.
So we've got those two hardbarriers.
So that's shared enjoyment.
The other thing I do is Iimplement low risk times.
So when you go into these cases, you're usually seeing that
anytime that these dogs are witheach other or near each other

(34:08):
it is high risk and they knowthat, just like the people know
that, so they know ooh, when I'mnear Sparky, like I got to
watch my back, like stuff couldgo wrong.
Here I want to implement superlow, key, low risk times for
these dogs to be near each other.
Sometimes that looks like thefamily's going to gather and

(34:29):
they're going to watch a movie.
So we have Sparky over here ona leash on a bed next to one
human and we have Fluffy over inthe other end of the room, also
on a leash, on a bed next tothe other person.
Depending on the risk we'retalking about, I could have an X
pen down the middle of the room.
I could have muzzles on thesedogs, but we are all hanging out
and nothing is happening.

(34:50):
Another one that I really lovethat again, you know there are
safety implications that youneed to think about is one thing
that I've done, because I'vedone, I've.
We haven't talked about it and I, you know, don't want this
podcast to be like my traumahistory, but I've definitely
lived to this scenario.
And so having the two dogs thatdon't care for each other in
crates, in adjacent crates, inmy car, when I'm just running

(35:13):
errands, so nothing is happening, you can't get to each other,
and this is not exciting andyou're just near each other, is
another version of low risk time.
So I implement the sharedenjoyment and the low risk times
when I start to just seeeverything feeling a little bit
safer and I talk to the clientsand I'm like listen, you're

(35:34):
going to start to feel better.
Barriers still have to exist.
You're going to start to feelbetter.
But when they start to feelbetter, that's when I know that
we can push harder and we canwork a little bit more on our B
mod.
Those are the first kind ofthings that I do, and then I
dive into skill training.
Do you want to jump in on anyof that stuff before I go there?

Speaker 1 (35:55):
I have a million questions.
Of course, I love everythingyou're talking about because it
sounds very, very similar towhat I would like to do, or what
I do in terms of relationshipbuilding, as well as we get to
those points.
So if we were going to kind ofdetermine what's happening,
would you say it'sdesensitization when we're just

(36:15):
simply getting the dogs in ashared space or shared enjoyment
.
I see you there, you're thereand we're just kind of hanging
out, but we're desensitizing towhat previously would have been
a difficult moment for us.
Would you agree there?
Or would you say there's?

Speaker 2 (36:27):
something else going on.
I would agree, especially withlow risk times, that what we're
doing is we're activelyattempting to desensitize the
dogs to the presence of theother dog With shared enjoyment.
I think you might argue thatthere's an element of counter
conditioning going on.
I think a lot of my B mod willalso have elements of counter
conditioning going on.

(36:48):
I tend not to do what peopleconsider like classical counter
conditioning and not evenclassical.
It is classical counterconditioning Like classical
counter conditioning proceduresin which Sparky walks in and I
feed Fluffy a bunch of food andSparky walks out and I stop.
I tend not to do stuff likethat, but there are elements of

(37:09):
counter conditioning, I think,at play as well.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Is there a particular reason you don't jump to that
particular classical counterconditioning, the classic
classical counter conditioningstrategy in your cases, or have
you moved away from that overthe years?

Speaker 2 (37:25):
I find that counter conditioning is most effective
for me in my practice as atag-along effect to the other
things that I'm doing, asopposed to the whole plan itself
.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
How do you navigate when you'vegot to decide okay, we're going
to get these dogs into sort ofa low risk situation?
Do you want to make sure thatthey're not still giving each
other the evil eye or they'restill not tension occurring
between the two dogs?
How do you differentiate thatfor the owners or how do you
help them understand when it'slow risk and when it could be

(38:01):
potentially high risk for a lowrisk situation?

Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yes, absolutely.
A really key part ofdesensitization is always going
to be starting at a level wherewe are not upset.
It's starting at a level wherewe are okay and then we're
building up.
I'm going to ask the clients Ialways ask them how do you think
this would go?
If they are like no, this doesnot sound possible, then that is

(38:27):
my first clue that we need tostart simpler and easier.
Sometimes I will even start withjust one dog is doing what I'm
going to call low risk time.
It's lying down on a bedattached to this person.
Because they might not even beused to being managed that much,
it in and of itself might bestressful I actually introduce
the scenario to both of themseparately, without the other

(38:48):
dog there, then start to bringthem both in on the scenario.
That often works.
Sometimes I will put an X pendown the middle and sometimes
I'll hang sheets on the X pen,and so we have a visual barrier
as well.
If we have a long hallway thatwe can do low risk times one at
one end and the other at theother end we'll do it like that.

(39:09):
I'm just going to look atwhat's available to me, see
what's going to work andimplement what's going to work.
Sometimes shared enjoyment iseasier because the dogs have
something else to think about.
Then we might start there.
I might have the dogs again.
We're all watching TV, we'rejust hanging out, but both the
dogs are working on Licky Matzon their own bed.

(39:30):
They're doing something else.
They don't have to worry asmuch about the other dog.
I'm always testing.
I'm always quick to throw inthe towel if I don't think
things are going well.
Of course, client education asfar as if you see this, if you
see this, if you see this, I'mgoing to stop.
It's so, so important.
I think often we're like if yousee this, don't keep going.

(39:51):
It's also really important forthem to know exactly what it's
supposed to look like.
I will send them a very boring20 minute video of exactly what
it's supposed to look like.
It should be super boring sothat they can see oh okay, this
is literally nothing.
It's literally.
They're just laying down,because your client might think
that they're supposed to belooking at each other or this is

(40:12):
worthless, or they might thinkthat staring at each other is
fine, as long as nobody'sgrowling or barking.
Being very, very clear aboutwhat's expected, what's good.
What's not is really reallyimportant for those times.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, there's nothing more important than actually
just watching paint dry, oh God.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
I know.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
For a client just to see nothing happening is
actually such a wonderful thingfor them, because they're not
seeing the fights and theconflicts.
Additional strategies for that?
Relationship building too youalso.
So you mentioned walks on leashtogether or activities like
that.
But what about with even lessprotected contact in scenarios
where there's been no history ofconflicts at all?

(40:54):
Let's say, two dogs that runaround in a field or go play
together in a particularlocation they never had any
history of conflicts there,there's no resources and it's
open space without anyrestrictions on movement.
Do you encourage that as well,or are you more careful with
those moments?

Speaker 2 (41:11):
I would say it depends on the case, but
typically, if there is not ahistory of problems, like the
dogs go on off leash hikes witheach other all the time and the
problems are all isolated to thehouse, I won't implement more
management on the off leashhikes.
I will say, okay, cool, thenkeep doing that because that's
obviously working for you.
I think that the bestprediction of future behavior is

(41:34):
past behavior, right?
So if the past behavior of themout on these walks is good or
even sociable, maybe they eveninteract on these walks.
I don't want to stop that.
I don't want to make that nothappen.
I have had situations where thestuff in the house was
escalating and then somethingdid happen out on a walk that

(41:55):
they didn't expect to havehappen due to the fact that
things were really escalatingquickly in the home.
So if I have any concerns aboutthat, I really like a basket
muzzle for these situations.
So maybe they are still allowedto be free, because I mean,
everybody knows that I'm prettybig into off-leash exercise.
If these dogs are actuallygetting off-leash exercise, I
don't want to put them on aleash.

(42:16):
I don't want to take thataccess from them.
So maybe I put them both inbasket muzzles to make everybody
feel better, but we're stillout and we're still off-leash.
It's going to be very case bycase.
I don't just have a rule of Iknow you've never had a problem
out on walks, but I'm going toassume that you will, and so we
are going to manage and manageand manage.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Lots on pack here and I love how this whole episode
is kind of turning into almostlike a class on how to work with
the intro house of dogaggression, because we've
covered the safety andmanagement, we've covered sort
of understanding why dogs fight,covered a little bit of the
human element and how tonavigate that and the behavior
change strategy process here.
So let's dive deeper actuallyinto the behavior change
strategy.
So we talked about let's getthese dogs back together,

(43:02):
whether it's desensitization,whether there's elements of
classical conditioning orcounter conditioning, but let's
dive deeper.
What do you kind of do nextOnce you start?
You've got these moments ofhanging out together right.
So shared enjoyment, as youwould mention, and then low risk
situations.
What are your next steps?
Like, let's say, it'sparticular contexts in which

(43:23):
we've determined that the dogsare most likely to have a
conflict in.
So it's over a restart whenone's near one of the guardians
and the other dog approaches andit's a resource guarding issue.
So what are your next steps?

Speaker 2 (43:36):
typically, I teach a lot of skills, and this really
is true across the board.
Certainly, the skills that theclient and the dog might show up
with are going to vary, but theskills that they leave me with
I want to be pretty much on par,like I want everybody to have
learned a lot of the same stufffrom me.

(43:58):
So the skills that I think arevery, very important are going
to be two different cues Onethat allows you to send the dog
somewhere else and another thatallows you to bring the dog
closer to you.
So I'd like to be able to sendthe dog away and I'd like to be
able to call the dog to me.
So often the send away is goingto be to a crate, but sometimes

(44:19):
it's to just kind of the dog'sX-pen area, like maybe we've set
up two different X-pen areasfor these dogs to live in and
they know how to run into theirson cue.
Sometimes it's to a station andI'll have catabores or climbs
or dog beds or pillows or othertypes of targets that I've
trained the dog to go to.
I do a lot of station typetraining for all of the dogs

(44:40):
that might be involved when thedogs are really good at being on
a station and then followingwhat I would call stationary
cues.
So sit down, stand nose, targetmaybe, spin, maybe give a paw,
so all of these kind of easy,easy in quotations skills for
the dogs to do for kind of areally dense reinforcement ratio

(45:02):
.
Just kind of one to one.
Sit cookie down, cookie, standcookie.
When the dogs can do that andthey can do that on an
individual station and they likethat game, I'm now going to do
that parallel.
So one dog's going to be doingit, the other dog's going to be
doing something else.
On the other side of a barrier,if I have two handlers, they're
both doing the same thing.
I might only use leashes.

(45:23):
If I feel like there needs tobe two barriers, I will use
leashes plus an X pen down themiddle.
Sometimes distance works justfine for us.
Sometimes I will use a leashplus a tether If an X pen is not
going to work.
Sometimes these big open floorplans like you need to use
tethers more, and so then I'mgoing to be doing that with the
two different handlers.
If I don't have two handlers,one dog is going to be on their

(45:45):
bed with a topple or a licky mator whatever, and then the other
dog's going to be worked.
There's kind of a theory thatone dog, seeing you affect
another dog's behavior, isbeneficial.
I don't know if there's anytruth to it at all, but I do
know that, living with allherding type breeds, they tend

(46:08):
to, like me, like to controlstuff, but they're cool, not
controlling it as long assomebody else is.
So, for instance, if I havelike kind of a chaotic moment,
like the dogs are coming in fromoutside and they're all kind of
loud and chaotic, one of myborder collies thinks that's
totally not authorized and hewould like to control that with

(46:30):
his teeth.
But I can ask him to go to adifferent area.
I can ask him to go to hiscrate.
He will, I can feed him forthat and then I can bring the
chaos down and within like a fewrepetitions of this he's like
oh, this is the time when I goto the crate so that she makes
them stop.
So just kind of showing them Ican do stuff with this dog.

(46:52):
This dog listens to me.
I have no idea if the dog onthe other side is actually
perceiving that or not, but it'sa nice idea.
So lots and lots and lots ofskill training.
I do find that sometimes, astrainers, we don't teach people
as many skills as we maybe couldbecause we're, like they don't

(47:13):
want to be dog trainers, likethis stuff is hard.
We might get a little bit toolike, caught up on the mechanics
.
Don't get caught up on themechanics.
Let them be as sloppy as theyneed to be and have them be
training and training andtraining.
It's going to improve theirconnection with the dog, their
relationship with the dog.
It's going to improve the dog'srelationship to them.
It's going to improve theentire scenario if we have a lot

(47:34):
of usable skills.
So a lot of the training thatI'm doing is just skills upon
skills upon skills, and then Ibring the other dog into the
scenario.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yes, everything you're saying is resonating with
me because I think, especiallythe stationing I mean stationing
behaviors it's kind of almost amandatory thing and a vast
majority of my intra householdcases, especially when there's
resources involved you have tohave some incompatible
alternative behavior to cue.
When you're in those moments andreally that is exactly what
you're talking about Like withyour herders, you know having

(48:06):
some sense of control in theenvironment can be very
important to them.
And then if they see somebodyelse and I think you're onto
something, though actually Iagree with that that I think
when dogs see us taking the leadon a situation, they are like
thank you for doing that.
Now I don't have to do it, andI think it actually removes some
of the anxiety for some dogsbecause there's consistent

(48:27):
expectations and consistentoutcomes in many of those
contexts.
So sort of a little deeper divequestion now is we're often
using reinforcement, of course.
So we're teaching the dog go tostation, we're going to
reinforce you for that behavior,for instance, so we use food or
whatever it is.
Well, let's say we're using food.
But one big question I guess,even with trainers, is like you

(48:49):
have dogs competing overresources, let's say the owners.
One of the resources foods areresource and suddenly you're
introducing resources into thecontext in which we're trying to
work with the dogs in, and thatcan get complicated, right.
We're like oh, I don't know.
I get nervous because if, whatif I drop a hot dog, or can you
talk us around that, like, whatdo you do to make sure we

(49:10):
mitigate that and also reducethe tension around resources in
those moments?

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yeah, so number one.
That's why I'm going to havethose barriers up.
If I'm working with these dogswith food, they can't reach each
other.
If I drop a treat, they're notboth able to go for it at the
same time.
Also, that's another skill Ifyou are on a station and I drop
food off of the station, it'snot yours.
So that's another skill that weteach, that I like to teach,

(49:38):
and I do it deliberately withoutthe other dog involved so that
that kind of fear of the otherdogs going to eat my stuff
doesn't come in.
And I do find that in thesesituations where resources are
free flowing and the dogsoverall wellness needs are very
much met which we haven't talkedabout that.
But that's my cornerstone ofreally everything that I do is

(50:01):
making sure that these dogs arereally fulfilled in every other
way I see an overall relaxationand reduction of the resource
guarding.
That is happening.
So all of my personal dogs Iwould call resource guarders to
some extent, especially myborder collies.
I would say my Icelandicsheepdog is the least guardie of

(50:21):
the dogs that I've ever had,but my border collies are all
resource guarders on some leveland they all can eat a kibble
scatter in the grass next toeach other.
They can all lay down and chewa kong in the same room.
I'm not worried about therebeing a fight.
I'm not worried about itbecause none of them are worried
about it.

(50:41):
They have their thing.
Nobody's gonna come take theirthing, and this is a very normal
situation for them.
So when I'm using food in theskill training scenarios,
everybody has food.
I'm not expecting you to bethere just watching me train
this dog.
You're either being fedintermittently by maybe a food
robot like a man is winder, oryou're also being trained by

(51:04):
somebody else, or you're eatingsomething, working on a licky
mat or something like that.
So everybody has something.
When I do start to introduce theKind of more advanced mutual
stations exercise, one dog is ona station.
We've got a barrier between theother ones on a station.
It's a really advanced levelwhere I will train one for a

(51:24):
little bit, tell them to wait,cross the barrier, train the
other one for a little bit, tellthem to wait, cross the barrier
.
I go there when they trust thescenario so much that they know
their turn is coming and they'renot freaking out about it.
So I'm watching them and I'mwatching how snatchy are they
with the food?
How do their skills laps when Idrop a tree and the other dog

(51:45):
is over there, like if I'vetaught you when you're on a
station and I drop a treat onthe floor.
It's not for you If you losethat skill when this other dog
is here.
I know that we're not ready topush this to any harder level
for you.
So I'm watching the fluency inall of my skills To tell me when
I can make things harder.
And that, for me, is where theskill training is so, so

(52:06):
valuable.
Because if I know that withoutthat other dog you can cleanly
transition from sit down tostand Easily, but now I have the
other dog and I tell you downand you can't, and you offer me
stand instead, you've lost somefluency in the skills.
That tells me the level ofstress you're experiencing with
this other dog.
I don't even need to look fortense body language because

(52:29):
you're probably not even givingit to me.
I have this Really nice, easyway to know that we're not ready
to make things harder for you.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
This is such a good conversation because we're
peeling back layers as we go.
I love this, and we're talkingabout so many different aspects
that we need to pay attention to, like the overall kind of
holistic view of the dog andMaking sure their wellness and
needs are met, as well asoperant behaviors with a
stationing, teaching, sendingthem to a station or coming to
us.
We're looking at classicalcounter conditioning.

(52:59):
We're looking atdesensitization, looking at
relationship repair.
So this is beautiful like we'regetting peeling back layer.
So let's peel it back a littlefurther here and get into some
of the nuances of classicalcounter conditioning.
With regards to let's, let'suse an example to use a dog that
has a history of guarding theirowner from the other dogs and

(53:19):
they don't want the other dogapproaching when they're sitting
next to their owner on thecouch or laying on the owner's
lap.
And that's what is theantecedent that triggers the
response of I'm gonna leap offthe couch to attack the other
dog.
So we could go with the operantqueuing like okay, you go to
your station.
Let's make this particularcontext of what it's couch time
or Netflix time in the evening.
We're just gonna make it verypredictable.

(53:40):
I'm always gonna queue you togo to your station in your
station.
So Peaceful coexistence.
We have expectations.
We've removed the anxiety.
They have expected behaviors,alternative or incompatible
behaviors we've installed.
Do carry in with some of yoursort of more sticky cases.
Let's make sure the order ofevents is really good here.
So if dog a the dog next to usSees dog be entering the space,

(54:05):
do you go with the timing ofokay, you saw dog be entering
the space.
That's gonna predict somethinggood for you.
So you end up reinforcing thestation behavior, but you also
make a contingent on the otherdog enters the space.
That's when you also get thefood or the treat.
So that way it becomes.
You're sort of addressing anykind of guarding, because now
you're you're working onclassical counter conditioning,

(54:27):
but you're making sure the orderof events is really done
cleanly, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Hmm, well, maybe this is when I tell you that I don't
address that particular issuethat way, if I were going to, it
would be important for me.
Well, let me, let me back up alittle bit.
If I were going to address thatparticular issue, because I'm
not gonna be able to addressthat particular issue, that
particular issue is such acommon issue, right?
Dog is like no, I have mom onthe couch and you don't get to

(54:56):
be involved, right?
Such a common issue.
If I were going to try toapproach that with a classic
counter conditioning approach inwhich I was using a contrived
reinforcer like food, yes, Iwould keep my order of
operations extremely clean, butI wouldn't.
Do you want me to talk aboutwhy?

Speaker 1 (55:17):
Yes, yes, let's unpack this.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
So if the dog is already in possession of the
resource, which they are, ifthey're on the couch with me
Then the most power that I havein that scenario is to either
continue to allow access to theresource or to deny access to
the resource, rather than tryingto affect behavior with a

(55:45):
contrived resource the thingthat you weren't even thinking
about in the first place like apiece of hot dog.
I'm gonna be more effective ifI look at what the actual
function is, which ismaintaining access to the
resource that I already haveaccess to.
So that's the actual function.

(56:05):
That's what the dog is tryingto get at when it aggresses
towards its housemate when itcomes over to the couch.
Right, so I teach them thatthey will be denied access to
the couch if that's how they act.
Now can I create an aggressiveoutburst?
Yes, that's where If you'reactually going to attack
somebody, you're not allowed onthe couch.
I mean, I have big rules aboutthat.

(56:28):
If you're actually gonna attacksomebody, you're just not
allowed on the couch.
And if that is a quality oflife issue for the owner, then
we have couch time for Kujo.
Okay, so then couch time canhappen for Kujo when nobody else
is around, but other than that,kujo doesn't get to have the
couch.
That's my easy, simple solutionto that.
I have not found it to besuccessful and maybe you have
and I'd love to hear about it Toaddress that specific problem,

(56:50):
especially if the dog has accessto the couch if you're talking
about, the dog is just stationedin the room and I bring another
dog into the room and I feedyou and then the dog leaves.
That's a different thing thanwhat I'm picturing.
I love to use whatever theoriginal function is, whatever
the actual functional reinforceris, whenever possible, and I

(57:10):
think this is an easy place todo so.
So I've had a lot of success inteaching the dog essentially
that your access to thisresource, which is me and the
couch, leaves if you do XYZ andyour access to it stays if you
do a, b or C.
I've been very successful withthat and that's why I don't then

(57:32):
try to counter condition that Ihave dogs like they might.
My particular dog, felix, wouldlike it if only he and I existed
in the entire world.
So that would be.
His preference would be that heand I lived in a cabin in the
woods by ourselves and nothing.
No one else ever ever showed up.
But he has lived with a largenumber of dogs at some points
and smaller number of dogs atother points, but he's never
been the only dog.

(57:55):
And if he's lying with me in myrecliner which is like his
favorite thing, he has choicesand he knows he does his choices
.
You can stay here snuggled on meor you can leave, and if
another dog comes in, I mean Ican see it on his face, mike,
he's not happy that the otherdog came in, but he can snuggle

(58:20):
his little face in and not thinkabout it.
Or he can snarl a growl and ifhe snars a grouse he's told to
go somewhere else.
And because he has that skilland he understands how to go
somewhere else, when I tell himto, he can respond and he gets
to maintain access to thatresource by making those choices
.
So I think I might not bemaking any friends here with

(58:41):
this in the dog trainingcommunity the way that I'm
talking but that's what hasworked really well for me in
that specific issue is teachingthem that they get to maintain
access to this resource if andthey will lose access to it if,
which only works if everythingis plentiful and the dog's needs
are met and the dog lives inabundance, because if the dog

(59:02):
lives in a crate, 90% of thetime it's going to be a problem.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Yeah, yeah, lots of very good points there.
I think it's a wonderfulstrategy, everything you're
mentioning there, because itmakes it very clear for the dog
and the dog still has thechoices right.
We're still.
The dog has full agency on whatwants to do.
And then particular context Ithink for me it depends on the
client.
To you know, I don't thatparticular strategy of you.
Know, when the other dog entersthe space, good things happen

(59:28):
for you.
Also, classical conditioningusing food or counter
conditioning using food workswith some clients.
It depends because the fooditself also must be and it
typically is another resourcethat they would guard.
Or some treats.
So I find it works best inthose cases because they're
still getting access tosomething of value in that
moment, even though theirmotivation might be that I need

(59:50):
to stick to my owner.
But I also do find someresidual like.
Okay, my owner is also theproducer of treats, so there's
some sort of like Connectionthere, for lack of a better word
.
What I do find, though, alsosuper helpful is the
environmental cues.
So, like, the other dogentering the space at a
particular time or in aparticular location Can become a

(01:00:12):
queue for the dog that's nextto you on the couch to be like
hey, there's the other dog, whatdo I do now?
So looking up or engaging orgetting some interaction with
the owner, or even a stepfurther.
Some of the cases I've done ismaking it so that dog be now
knows what to do.
So dog is the problem dog thatwe're working on, but dog be can

(01:00:33):
be taught skills that, hey, Isee dog a with a resource.
Now I'm going to go check inwith my owner or go station.
Obviously, that's verycontextual to particular
locations.
It's not.
It's not an easy thing togeneralize by any means, but I
do find that can be superhelpful, like I just went into
the living room and Dog has abone, let me get out of there,
let me go find my own or station, as long as they you know again

(01:00:55):
, we need the right client andrecognize and notice those
things happening, I can be verypowerful because it really
mitigates conflict, because itallows you not to have to
micromanage all the time, butagain, very kind of smaller
subset of clients that are inits, usually trainers that I'm
working with on that particularscenario.
So, yeah, so I would love to,for the last few minutes here,

(01:01:18):
gonna jump into prognosis.
So, like difficult case,because one of the most common
questions I get is what to dowith difficult cases, or when
it's the things aren't resolving, or how do we know when to make
that decision we need to behome, or this is not going to
work out, in which cases maybeare really easy.
So what are your thoughts onthat, like overall?

(01:01:38):
Like what do you?
What do you measure, as far asyou know?
Is it the bite, histories andother factors?
What do you look at when you'rekind of thinking about outcomes
?

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Usually for me it is going to come down to a quality
of life concern for the peopleor the dogs, or both.
Honestly, it's usually both.
If somebody's having a qualityof life concern, it's probably
everybody.
The most common scenarios inwhich there's going to be a
re-home is when the management,especially the initial

(01:02:08):
management, feels impossible tothese people.
And that's okay, and for me, Idon't ever tell anybody that
re-homing is the best option forthem.
I just put it on the table andit's something that I just
gently set it on the table and Isee what their reaction is.
And if they seem relieved thatI put that on the table, then

(01:02:31):
we're going to go a little bitfurther.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
And I'll ask them.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
I was like, does that sound like maybe a relieving
option to you?
Or I might have another clientwho that feels like the worst
thing that could possibly happenand so we're not going to go
there, and they would ratherhave three hard barriers between
these dogs the rest of theirlives than have one of them go
live somewhere else.
Then fine, then I'm going tohelp you do that.
Definitely, seriousness of theinjuries is a big deal.

(01:02:59):
So I had one case in which Ifelt re-homing was the really
only viable option because ofthe extent of the injuries on
one of the dogs, and the ownerliterally just divided her house
and had one dog live in thatpart of the house for the rest
of its life and had the otherone live in the other part, and

(01:03:21):
she felt like she could do thatfor the rest of their lives, and
so that's what she did.
I think most people probablycouldn't.
She lived by herself and didn'thave any children or a spouse
that were going to mess this up,and it was really important to
her, so that's what she did.
I think that that's impossiblefor most people to do, and in

(01:03:44):
that case I mean the dog wasjust being ripped to shreds
every day and it got worse everytime it happened as it does.
So sometimes I will make kindof a strong case for re-homing
if I feel like it is the mostethical option for the dog that
is being attacked.
Otherwise it's so.
So up to the person.
It's so up to them, and it's myjob to make sure they know what

(01:04:06):
all of their options are andthen, if they feel like
re-homing is the best option forthem, I've had situations where
they re-homed when I was like Iprobably could have lived with
that situation, but they decidedthey couldn't and that's OK.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
Yes, yeah, I think the most important point you
brought up there too is qualityof life.
We kind of opened the show withthat and we're kind of closing
the show with that's really themost important factor for all
involved, because if we don'thave that then there's really no
point moving forward, becauseit's we're not thinking of the
animals or the humans in thosecases.
So really excellent, this is agreat discussion.

(01:04:39):
Where are people who can findyou?
So I mentioned Cogdog Radio.
So if you guys haven'tsubscribed to Sarah's podcast,
please do so.
How many episodes do you havenow?
Like well over 100.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
We're reaching 300.
Yeah, we'll hit 300 this year.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
That is impressive.
That's really impressive beinga fellow podcast right now.
Just how much work that takes.
So hats off to you.
Really, that's amazing.
So where else can people findyou?

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
Yeah, so certainly.
The podcast is Cogdog Radio.
My website is sarastrummingcom,so that's where everything that
I do is located.
I offer online courses that areself-study webinars.
I have a membership where folkshave access to the webinars and
the courses, and a communitywhere we all talk about training
, and then I offer privatecoaching as well for these

(01:05:27):
behavior problems that we'vebeen talking about.
And then social media it's thecognitive canine on Facebook and
it's cognitive underscorecanine on Instagram, and my name
is Sarah Stremming on TikTok.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Wonderful and as usual guys.
I will be linking to all ofthat in the show notes and Sarah
will be speaking at theaggression in dogs conference
this year happening in ChicagoSeptember 29th to October 1st.
Do you want to talk real quickabout what you're going to be
speaking on?

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
Well, intra-housel aggression is what I'm going to
be talking about, and I'm goingto be looking at it really
specifically through a veryapplied lens.
So I'm going to show you guyssome actual dogs and actual
cases.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
Love it, love it.
We love our case studies.
So, sarah, thank you so much.
It was wonderful chatting withyou and a fellow podcaster and
I'm looking forward to seeingyou soon.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Thanks so much, mike, it was wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
It was so wonderful having an opportunity to chat
with Sarah and to hear how sheeffectively restores harmony in
homes where there are those dogto dog conflicts.
Don't forget, sarah will bespeaking at the aggression in
dogs conference this year on thevery topic of intra-housel dog
to dog aggression.
You can find out more about theconference and register by

(01:06:38):
going to aggressivedogcom or bychecking the show notes for this
episode.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource
guarding, dog to dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.

(01:06:58):
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening and staywell, my friends.