When Dogs Mirror Us: Exploring the Link Between Human Emotions and Canine Behavior

Have you ever noticed how your dog's behavior seems to mirror your own emotional state? It's not a coincidence. The connection between human mental health and canine behavior runs deeper than most of us realize, and Kerrie Hoar is bringing this crucial relationship into focus.

Kerrie joins us to share her groundbreaking work at the intersection of dog training and mental health support. Drawing from her experience working with a tri-county consortium of mental health professionals, she reveals how seemingly unrelated behaviors—a child struggling to wait in line at school and a dog pushing to be first for treats—often stem from the same underlying challenges. Through thoughtful observation and collaborative strategies, Kerrie helps clients recognize these patterns and develop skills that benefit both ends of the leash.

About Kerrie:

https://www.crimsonhound.com/meet-the-trainer-kerrie-hoar/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
In this episode I sit down with Kerry Orr to talk
about the deep and overlookedconnection between human mental
health and dog behavior.
Kerry shares how her holisticapproach helps clients navigate
not only their dog's behaviorchallenges but also their own
emotional experiences.
We discuss the importance oftrust, communication and

(00:24):
tailoring training to fit theunique needs of each dog human
team.
Carrie also explores the roleof empathy, body language and
collaboration in creating safer,more effective behavior change.
Carrie is a certified dogbehavior consultant and a
professional trainer who bringsa compassionate, evidence-based
approach to her work, with abackground in science and a

(00:46):
commitment to rewards-basedtraining.
She founded Crimson Hound LLCto support dogs and their people
through one-on-one,relationship-centered sessions.
Carrie believes in meeting bothcanine and human needs through
customized plans that prioritizesafety, understanding and
lasting connection.
And before we jump into today'sepisode, a quick heads up If

(01:09):
you're looking to learn moreabout helping dogs with
aggression issues, head on overto aggressivedogcom, because
we've got something for everyone.
For pet pros, there's theAggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
on aggression, packed withexpert insights and CEUs.
For dog guardians, check outReal Life Solutions, a practical
course for everyday challengeslike leash reactivity, resource

(01:32):
guarding and dog to humanaggression, and if you want full
access to expert webinars, livementor sessions and exclusive
discounts, the ultimate accessmembership is just $29.95 a
month.
You'll also find info on the2025 Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening inCharlotte this September.
That's all at aggressivedogcom.

(01:52):
Check it out after the show.
Hey everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.
This week, we're going to befocusing a little bit on the
human side as well as the dogside, and I've got Carrie Hoare
here with me who is going to befocusing on this topic, because

(02:13):
this is her specialty.
She really focuses on both thehuman side and humans that are
experiencing mental healthdisorders or challenges, as well
as dogs who might be strugglingand how we can really help both
sides by understanding bothsides of the equation.
So welcome to the show, keri.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
So tell us more about the work you're doing, your
focus and how you got into it inthe first place.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
So I have always had animals, menagerie of animals,
so I've always been trainingchickens and dogs and horses and
anything.
And I taught for 20 years andwhen I retired there I did a
medical retirement I was lookingfor something to do and in the
meantime I was still workingwith training my own dogs and I
kind of fell into would you liketo teach some group dog classes

(03:01):
?
Did that for a while and then Ibranched out on my own, started
my own business about fouryears ago and one of the people
that I had been working closelywith at the place where I was
teaching group classes happenedto be in her office with one of
her foster dogs one day and sherented space from a counseling
business and she was workingwith this dog on some of Leslie

(03:23):
McDevitt's pattern games and oneof the therapists saw her
working with the dog and saidhey, what do you do on that?
And my colleague explained toher what she was doing and she
said you know, that looks a lotlike what we do with kids for
coping skills that have anxietydisorders and we need to develop
coping skills.
Do you think you could developthat into something with people?

(03:45):
She contacted me and said, hey,do you think we can do this?
And I said yeah, but I don'thave a dog that I can bring in.
My dogs have anxiety andthey're just not set up to be
that kind of a dog.
But I'm a dog trainer.
I would love to go and workwith people with their own dog.
Kind of the mindset then washow can I help them with coping

(04:06):
skills and help keep that dog inthe home right, so that they're
understanding behavior andthings like that and keeping the
dog in the home?
And it just has grown andblossomed from there with all
kinds of levels of can we workwith, helping you find low-cost
veterinary care and just allkinds of things to help with the
welfare of the dog and thewelfare of the person.

(04:27):
So it's really just continuingto blossom.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
And that must be especially challenging because
when we're working with you knowwe're going in and we're seeing
clients that might have anaggression case or some other
behavior issues they'reexperiencing with their dog,
behavior issues they'reexperiencing with their dog.
Now you're kind of navigatingtwo sides where there can be
some unique challenges and howmuch the dog and the person
might be sort of feeding eachother's behavior or patterns,

(04:53):
right yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, so in what I'm doing, I'm working with a
tri-county consortium and theyit's called Community Centered
Services and what they do isthey have all kinds of vendors
come in, so they have therapists, art therapists, equine therapy
, skills workers, all kinds ofstuff, and they come in and the
consumer or their caregivertogether form a team of their

(05:18):
service facilitator, theirsocial worker, maybe a therapist
, art therapy, you know allkinds of stuff, and they bring
this team together and we meetmonthly and we talk about
there's a set of goals that thatclient has.
This is what I'm working for,this is what good mental health
looks like for me, and so thisis what we're working for
towards and we all kind of worktogether.

(05:38):
We meet monthly and we talkabout what are we struggling
with, what are the successes,and we kind of go from there,
talk about what are westruggling with, what are the
successes, and we kind of gofrom there and I'll say, well,
okay, so I'm seeing thisconsumer maybe is having some
issues with impulse control,just doing things on impulse and
not recognizing the long-termconsequences.
And then I can come back withwell, you know, they have a
teenage dog.
I'm seeing that with the dog,where the dog is rushing out the

(06:01):
door.
And maybe that impulse controlis also seen in leash walking,
where they're jerking on theleash rather than calling the
dog back, and things like that.
And so we kind of all look atokay, what are the struggles
right now and how can weincorporate all of this?
And when I meet with a clientfor the first time, I will say
you know, what do you like aboutthe dog, what bothers you about

(06:23):
the dog?
What would you like to change?
What are the struggles?
What is your relationship like?
And I ask the caregiver as well.
And so we look at you know, thedog may be fearful, the dog may
be.
There may be no relationship atall because that child maybe
struggles with being physicalwhen they get upset.
And the dog has just learned Ican't trust you.

(06:44):
So we work on a lot ofrelationship building, whether
it's making it stronger orlooking at it from a different
lens.
So I try to work everythingthrough the lens of the dog,
because the consumer is alwaysbeing bombarded and they're
always the center of it withtherapy sessions and stuff.
It's always what do you think?
How do you feel?
What is this, what is that?

(07:05):
And so I try to focus itthrough the dog onto the person.
So we may look at, well, whathappens if the dog rushes out
the door and runs into thestreet and maybe one day it's
fine, but another day it's notand we can't take that back.
So what can we do to help withthat?
You know, and I focuseverything is on you can't touch

(07:26):
the dog.
When we're teaching the dogsomething, there's no touching
the dog and there's kind words,and rewards are the only thing
you can use Really kind ofworking with.
How can we build thatrelationship with the dog and
then bring it back to the humanside.
So we're looking at the bodylanguage of the dog and how does
the dog feel emotionally whenthey're making those different
signals?

(07:46):
Well, what does it look likewhen a person feels anxious or
when a person feels fearful orhappy, and how can you recognize
that and how can you respond tothat?
A lot of let's teach the dog tojump over something and a lot of
times they'll set it up toohigh and so we'll look at.
Well, you know, what would thatlook like with you If your dog

(08:07):
walks up to an eye level?
Would you be able to do that ifsomeone set it up and they'll
oh no, can't do that.
So then they will think, okay,how can I help the dog be more
successful?
And just that kind of buildinga lot of social cueing and
social interactions, kind ofviewing it through the lens of
the dog at all times, becauseI'm not a therapist, I'm a dog
trainer, so it's always got tocome through that lens of the

(08:28):
dog as well.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, how do you feel that resonates with the client
sometimes?
So they might see themselvesyou know their dog having
similar behavior patterns orchallenges even.
And do you find that sometimesthey might blame themselves,
like, oh, I'm like this and nowmy dog's like this.
Or does it help them understandthat?
Like, wow, this stuff isworking here, so why can't it

(08:52):
work for me?
Or vice versa, so like, what doyou see there?

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Both, both.
I've got clients who may havesocial anxiety and they have a
dog who's reactive on leash.
And I've done this.
I know I tense up, I know Ijerk on the leash, I know I'm
worried about people approachingme and now my dog is like this
and now I've broken my dog.
But then we work through.
So how can we make you feelmore comfortable and more

(09:17):
confident with that dog?
All the things we do withreactive dog training the taking
deep breaths, going at it wherethe dog can be successful and I
walk along with them.
Okay, now there's a dog coming.
What are we going to do here?
We're going to stop, we'regoing to take some deep breaths,
we're going to play some gameswith the dog and work that way.
And then there's other timeswhere, a lot of times with the

(09:38):
kids, they have a lot moretrouble connecting the dots.
So you've got to be sometimes alittle bit more pointed with
that.
So if we have a child who hasdifficulty waiting in line or
taking their turn and they getupset when things don't go their
way all the time, a lot oftimes they have a dog and a lot

(09:58):
of times they have a pug forsome reason, and pugs do not
want to wait their turn foranything.
They want to push their noseand get the treat first.
They want to be first foreverything and so we work on.
Again going back to Leslie andMcDevitt, we work on volunteer
sharing between the dogs.
So what does this look like atschool If kids are in line and
everybody's excited to go torecess and kids are pushing?

(10:19):
What does the teacher do tohelp everybody kind of calm down
and what is similar here?
What does the teacher do tohelp everybody kind of calm down
and what is similar here?
When are the dogs havingscuffles?
It's always when they'reexcited.
And when are the kids at schoolhaving scuffles and pushing
sessions?
It's always when they'reexcited and waiting in line.
And so trying really to kind ofmore pointedly push that to
them and just discovering a lotof things, like I had one client

(10:43):
who was having a lot of thecrisis teams were coming in with
healthcare workers and thepolice and stuff and they had
two little dogs and people arecoming in and out of the house
and the doors open, and so Iasked one day so where are the
dogs when all this is happeningand are they okay when
dysregulation is happening.
So well, you know they'rerunning around and they're

(11:04):
worried and they don't know whatto do.
You know.
So then we would teach a flightcue for the dog.
So we taught those dogs that areally happy kind of almost like
an urgency U-turn.
When this happens, we're goingto playfully rush into their
safe space, a mudroom orsomewhere, rush in there, throw
some treats and then shut thedoor.
I find that having that team isfantastic, because those crisis

(11:27):
workers are saying, oh my gosh,I never thought about that.
What do I need to do?
When I come in, I can help movethose dogs into the room, and
so they're not getting out andadding things to their crisis
plan.
If everybody has to leave withthis person to go to the
hospital, what are we going todo with the dog?
Do we have it on the plan?
Somebody's going to take careof the dog, and stuff like that.

(11:47):
So yeah, just like opening acan of worms of oh my gosh, what
can we add?
But it's so much, a lot of yes,I did this and then a lot of it
is they don't recognize it.
They don't recognize.
When I see somebody on TikTokbarking in their dog's face and
recording it and I climb into mydog's crate and bark in their
face and they nip at me we'vegot to talk about personal space

(12:11):
and breeding, body language andthings like that because they
don't connect the dots at thatpoint yeah, yeah that what
they're doing is affecting thedog's behavior.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
So tell us more about this team approach.
So you have the humanprofessionals in there, you have
the dog pro in there, which isyou, and you're communicating as
a team about what steps to takeforward.
So maybe we can use an exampleyou know the child that has a
hard time waiting in line, andthen you can teach that child
how to train their dog how towait, and so do you find that

(12:39):
that's really beneficial forwhat the human health
professionals doing and saying,okay, if we teach this child how
to do that, they can be able torecognize in themselves.
This also applies to me.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yes, yes.
And the other thing that ithelps with is that it removes
some of the conflict in the home.
So there's less conflict in thehome.
That it's helping then moveother areas forward.
If we're not struggling withthe child and the dog constantly
, we're kind of able to usemaybe some of the things that

(13:13):
I've taught them to interactingwith siblings and things like
that.
Then it kind of blows out someof those candles that we talk
about, you know, under theboiling pot of water.
It acts as a glimmer to kind ofblow out some of those trouble
spots and allowing them toconcentrate more on their own
mental health or their owninteractions at school or things
like that.

(13:33):
So, yeah, it really does help.
And you know I'll come at itwith.
Well, I'm a dog trainer, I'm nota therapist, but when I work
with reactive dogs this is whereI work from I start where the
dog can be successful and thenwe move forward and it can help
with because there's sometimesschool representatives on the
team and we just all kind ofbrainstorm about this is where

(13:57):
the client's struggling rightnow.
What can everybody on this teamdo to help right now with what
we're struggling with?
You know, I see impulse controlissues with the dog.
So let's talk about working onimpulse control and why is it
important to teach weight andwhy is it important to think
before you act, and things likethat.

(14:18):
So it's, it's fantastic.
There's so much brainstormingand things that I can just kind
of, oh, I can riff off of thatand then I can bring it into my
general dog training clients aswell.
You know, I learned this and itworks great.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
Where do you start with all of this?
Because I can imagine just howcomplex it gets, especially if
there's a disconnect in therelationships in the home
between the dog and some of thehumans.
There's a disconnect in therelationships in the home
between the dog and some of thehumans.
So you have, let's say, youknow, a single parent out there
with really struggling andyou're asking them.
Okay, so you have this going onwith your child and now you
have this going on with your dogand I'm going to ask you to do
this, and this person's going toask you to do that.

(14:56):
Like, where do you start?

Speaker 2 (14:58):
And is there any kind of secret starting point that
you typically go to with yourclients like this I always start
with asking them their favoritething about their dog and if
there's anything that bothersthem about their dog that they
would like their dog not to do.
And then we always start from abody language perspective.
I tell them you know your dogis trying to tell you things, so

(15:20):
let's learn about what he'strying to say.
With kids I do anthropomorphizemore than I would with adults,
because I think it helps themrecognize more in themselves
what this might look like.
So we always start with bodylanguage, and so I've got a
whole bunch of pictures of dogsthat I've printed out on like

(15:43):
playing card size decks, andI've got one deck of golden
retrievers doing all the bodylanguage signals and I will
start out with what do they knowalready.
And so we'll play kind of atraffic signal game with here's
the set of cards, and what Iwant you to do is I want you to
put in one pile of the dogs thatyou think are happy and the
other pile I want you to put indogs that you think are maybe

(16:06):
scared or anxious or angry, andthen in the middle pile I want
you to put down the dogs thateither you feel that they are
unsure or you're not sure whatto do with them, and that kind
of helps me see where they're at, because so many times and even
the research is showing thatkids to adults can recognize
fear and anger in dogs.

(16:27):
They can recognize a dog thatis very afraid, hiding, tail
tucked et cetera, and they canrecognize a dog that is barking
and lunging and growling and isangry.
But what they struggle withuniversally is recognizing those
dogs that are conflicted or areshowing the first signs of
being uncomfortable.
And that's what I see in kids.
They'll take dogs that aredoing that real deep grimace

(16:51):
where they're almost doing thathuge smile and they've got all
the tension lines in their faceand if you didn't know what the
dog was doing, it looks like thedog's smiling, and so they'll
put that in the happy pilebecause the dog is smiling.
And so I kind of start fromthere and then I will pick up
the piles and we'll go througheach card why did you put it in
this pile?
What did you see?
And then we'll start with justkind of a few general things of

(17:15):
this is what dogs look like whenthey're happy.
This is what they look likewhen they're uncomfortable, and
then each week we have one bodypart that they look at.
So then each week we have onebody part that they look at.
So maybe, and they get a pickthis week, we're you know, what
do you want to look at?
You want to look at ears, youwant to look at eyes, you want
to look at their mouth, what doyou want to look at?
And let's say they pick ears,okay.
So what I want you to do is Iwant you to.

(17:36):
When Fluffy is walking around,happy and you're playing
together, or he's resting, whatdo his ears look like?
When he is barking out thewindow at a squirrel, what do
his ears look like?
So then I want them to kind oflook at what is the circumstance
around that and then reportback to me.
And sometimes, when they reportback, I have to kind of pull it

(17:59):
out of them.
I had one consumer one time whoactually wrote me a book report.
She actually wrote it all out.
This was my homework.
I wrote it all out.
This was all the times I saw.
I think it was.
We were working on nose flicks,tongue flicks, and she wrote it
all out.
This is when I saw it.
This is what they were doing.
So then I'll say, okay, so wesaw, let's say we saw tongue

(18:19):
flicks.
Did you see it more when youwere approaching the dog to give
him a hug, or when did you seeit?
And so we kind of look at bodylanguage and really try to get
them to understand what fearlooks like in the dog and how to
approach that.
What does it mean?
And then I try to start to canyou show me your face when

(18:42):
you're fearful?
What do you look like?
I also do an emotion card ofthe week.
So, I've got a different set ofcards, you know, thicker set,
where I've just printed out dogsdoing a billion dog things.
And I'll say, go through thedeck and pick one card, two
cards, three cards of a dog thatyou think feels the way that
you feel today.
And they'll pick out theircards and sometimes they'll say,

(19:06):
oh, you look like you feelgrowly today or something like
that, and do you want to tell mewhy you feel growly or why do
you think this dog feels growly?
And so they'll tell me a storyof well, they went to school and
this happened.
And so we kind of go down thatemotions road every single week,
we talk about that every singleweek and then we go at.
A lot of the kids need help withpatience and impulse control.

(19:29):
So we work on skills and again,you can only use a kind voice
and food, and so you've got tobe patient and maybe they want
the dog to roll over.
Wonderful, that's a long-termgoal.
Right, we can work on the.
There's going to be steps.
We've got to work through allthese steps.

(19:53):
I had one child who they hadbeen using pushing the dog's
butt down so many times that ifthey tried to put their hand
past the shoulder, the dog wouldgrowl at them.
So I want my dog to roll over,but I can't bring the treat up
around their shoulder to do that.
So then we have to work onrebuilding that relationship.
She doesn't trust me, you know.
And just talking about whydoesn't she trust me, and just
you know.
It's okay, I don't, you know,I'm just here to help.

(20:15):
I don't care what you did,that's all in the past.
We're just here to move forward.
And so they'll tell me, yeah, Iprobably did push her down.
So so they'll tell me, yeah, Iprobably did push her down.
So what are we going to do tofix that?
How are we going?
to help her understand that shecan trust you when you put your
hand back there.
So that's kind of where I startis kind of what do you want to

(20:36):
work on?
It's always going to be basedaround body language, but then,
what do you want to work on?

Speaker 1 (20:47):
no-transcript and in that regard can we talk about
what people do that impact theirdog's behavior in terms of
their own emotions?
So we've talked about some ofthe more obvious things, like
somebody getting frustrated orimpulsive and yanking on the
leash, or the child pushing thedog's butt down.
Those kinds of things arereally for us as trainers and

(21:08):
consultants, seeing that as veryobvious interactions with the
dog that are going to impact thebehavior.
But let's dig into some of themore subtle things.
You know there's been somerecent research even about dogs,
like looking at facialexpressions and knowing the
emotions, and how much of thosethings on sort of not an obvious
level are impacting the dog'sbehavior.
And then we can also look at theother side of the coin to how

(21:29):
the dog impacts a human'sbehavior.
But let's start with how muchthe humans, especially in these
cases where you know it's asensitive topic, because we
can't say, oh, because of yourchallenges, this is why your
dog's that way.
But we also sometimes do haveto bring that to light because
it can be impacting the dog'sbehavior in some way.
So what are some things you'veseen, or your experiences in

(21:51):
that regard, or the subtleties,or the emotions?

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, well, one of them is you may think in the
home that we have the clientRight working through.
Let's say, we have a dog who'sleash reactive.
What do we need to do?
We need to do?
Find it, we need to call themaway, we need to avoid that,
trigger things like that.
But then, as a dog trainer,oftentimes here's your homework

(22:14):
and then we walk away and wecome back and they've not
progressed and we feel that it'swell, they're not complying and
sometimes it's a matter of theycan do it in the home and they
can do it in some situations.
But then, maybe on aparticularly bad day, they go
out and they see somebody comingand they shut down and they

(22:37):
don't know They've forgotteneverything.
So they just the first time Isaw it I'm like you're just
standing there letting it happen.
I know you know how to do this,do it, but she was just frozen,
she couldn't.
And then, after the dog barkedand lunged and I helped calm the
dog down, then we kind of comeback into ourselves and it's
like you know, you're a bad dog,you shouldn't have done that,

(22:59):
you know.
And so for those clients wehave a conversation of what do
you think you're going to beable to do in the moment.
Do you think you're going to beable to do what I'm trying to
teach you?
And if you can't, then we needto come up with something
different.
So can we somehow make a youknow he's already got a harness
Can we get some material withstop signs on it and cut that

(23:22):
stop sign out and sew it ontothe harness and have it be kind
of those kind of signs of?
This is a nervous dog.
This is a reactive dog.
If you see a person from ablock away, are you okay to
cross the street right, so thatwe're not even going to use
those skills until you haveworked through your own social
anxiety?
So some of it is justrecognizing that right now I

(23:43):
can't do this.
So what management things canwe do in the meantime?
Continue to work on the skillsin the home so that when they're
ready they can do them.
The dog already knows them,they already know them and they
can take them on the road.
But while they're working ontheir own anxiety and stuff with
their human therapist what canwe manage with the dog in the

(24:05):
meantime?
Anxiety and stuff with theirhuman therapist what can we
manage with the dog.
In the meantime.
We do a lot of that kind ofrecognizing that a lot of these
kids are in or come from abusivesituations.
Sometimes they come from and weall did, we all came from
parents and grandparents whoused compulsion and yelling at
the dog and that kind of thingto get something done.

(24:26):
And the kids just see it asthis is how I do it, so that's
why I approach it with no handson the dog, can't touch the dog,
so a lot of that kind of stuffis just kind of how do you feel
when you're in your bedroom andyour little brother comes in and
starts bugging you?
Does that make you angry?
Do you yell at them?
Mom, come and get them out ofmy room.

(24:49):
Your dog's crate is like theirbedroom.
How do you think they feel whenthey're in there resting doing
their own thing and you come inand get right in their face?
Because you saw on TikTok whathappens when you blow in your
dog's face.
What happens when you bark inyour dog's face?
What happens?
Why bark in your dog's face?
What happens?
You know, why is the dog doingthat?
And they're like oh, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
I can see that.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
And so then maybe we'll make a draw a sign.
They can draw a sign of youknow Max's room and decorate it,
and then we tape the sign tothe crate and so it's kind of a
visible reminder of I don't goin there Kind.
And so it's kind of a visiblereminder of I don't go in there,
kind of recognizing that, yeah,what I am doing is causing that
issue With the child that hadthe dog that we couldn't touch

(25:35):
the behind.
We also noticed that the waythat the two boys played with
each other because they both hadADHD, both on the autism
spectrum, and they were bothboys and so they were playing
boys and they were just loud andobnoxious and it was affecting
the dog.
When mom would come in the house, dog would run and greet her at

(25:55):
the door, loved her, come andgreet her at the door.
Kids come in the house.
They are yelling at each other.
When they get out of the car,they're banging into the house,
they're throwing their backpacksdown, the dog runs and hides
and so what do you think thedifference is?
What can we do?
And so I came up with a MissionImpossible game with them.

(26:17):
I'm going to challenge you.
Can you get into the house, putyour stuff down, all without
causing the dog to leave thekitchen.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
You know, and when are you going to start it?
Are you going to start it whenyou come into the kitchen?
Because if you were yelling outin the car or in the driveway,
is the dog even in the kitchenwhen you come in anymore?
Probably not.
She's already gone and hid.
So we have to start out, youknow.
We have to back it up.
We have to start it in the car.
Okay, we're on MissionImpossible, we get out of the
car, we don't slam the doors, wedon't start screaming, you know

(26:46):
, and so that kind of how can wejust help them see the direct
impacts of what they're doing?

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Amazing.
I love that game that you madeit like something that probably
would be very interesting to acouple of boys like that, yeah,
to a 10 and 12 year old boy.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, they're into that.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
That's amazing.
That a couple of boys like thatTo a 10 and 12 year old boy
yeah, they're into that.
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
So, all right, we're going totake a quick break for a word
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(29:42):
All right, we're back here withKerry Orr and we were talking
about a lot of really uniquetopics for this show, because we
don't always get into the humanside, and I want to dig a
little bit further into sort ofwhat we were talking about.
But going to the challengingaspects of when we have a dog
with aggression issues that maybe directing it towards family
members or towards the personthat's experiencing these

(30:02):
challenges family members ortowards the?
You know the person that'sexperiencing these challenges.
How much do you find that'simpacting things and when do you
need to take a step back andsay is this the right fit, is
this?
You know, how do we get overthis huge hill that we see in
front of us, sometimes becauseof the impact on the
relationship?
So, of course, we talked aboutwhat the humans can do that

(30:23):
impact the dog's behavior.
But sometimes you go in, you'reworking as a team, but the dog
is really presenting some hugehills to climb over for the
client, or maybe even somethingthat the dog is aggressing
towards any severe aggressioncases.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Knock on wood, thank goodness.
So far I have worked with someresource guarding cases.
I've worked with somedefinitely growling and snapping
when that person comes around.
So really taking it back tothat body language of why is the
dog doing that and does the dogdo it with other people and so
how did they approach the dog?

(31:09):
That's different than whatyou're doing and just really
kind of again reflecting thatlens through the dog to them and
kind of back and forth of whatis causing this.
If you are walking towards thedog and the dog is kind of
cowering away from you, what doyou see there?
And just practicing it all thetime.
You know, practicing, what am Igoing to do when this happens?

(31:31):
What am I going to do when thishappens?
And also really building a lotof.
We do a lot of playing with thedogs Through play, helping them
build more trust with oneanother.
So things like I'll bringCavaletti poles and stuff and,
like I said, talking aboutsetting the high and low, just

(31:52):
getting to the point where Idon't need to say anymore what
do we need to do to help the dogsucceed, help him feel
confident in doing this?
Or just a quick reminder of oh,he's not wanting to jump over
that right now.
What did we change?
What do we need to do a littlebit different and just really
trying to reframe theirrelationship with the dog of

(32:15):
play having fun versus the.
I'm angry with the dog becausewhen I try to give him treats he
bites my hand, or when I try toget in his crate he growls at
me or he barks at me or whatever.
And just really trying toreframe it as how is the dog
feeling?
Again, maybe anthropomorphizingmore than I should Granted, I

(32:37):
wouldn't do that with an adultclient but letting helping them
see what, if this was yourfriend, do you think that they
would come back and playtomorrow?
Probably not, friend.
Do you think that they wouldcome back and play tomorrow?
Probably not.
So what do you do differentwith your friend that you don't
do with the dog?
So what could we do with thedog to help that out?
So really kind ofself-reflecting, back to the
relationship of where did it gowrong, what is wrong and how to

(33:00):
build that really through funthings and really building a lot
of self-confidence in theclient as well, you know,
because a lot of them are justoh my gosh, and so with the kids
that I work with, we save thelast 10 minutes, usually with
sessions of let's call thefamily and show them what you've
been working on and I mean,just look what I can do.
You know, I got the dog to sitand wait.

(33:22):
I got the dog to jump over apole.
I got the dog to because a lotof them are like you're never
going to get this dog to gothrough a tunnel.
I'll bring a tunnel.
And they're like, yeah, that'snot happening.
And when the dog goes throughthe tunnel, the parent is more
excited than the kid is almost.
Oh, my God, I can't believe yougot to do that.
So it really that's kind of theapproach I take is what is

(33:44):
broken and how can we build itwith play and fun?

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, I always state that all the time is that play
is counter to you know, youcan't be fearful of something
and play at the same time orangry at something and play at
the same time.
So it's a great way.
It's not only a great way torepair things, but a great
barometer to say are bothparties actually okay with each
other enough to play right?
And what about the cases wherethere's serious concern?

(34:08):
So you step into a case andyou're concerned about safety.
It's just you know it's notgoing to be a good fit, or
there's so many challenges thatyou suspect it's going to result
in a very poor quality of lifefor either the child or the
adult or the dog.
What have you done in thosecases, or how do you approach
that conversation?

Speaker 2 (34:31):
You know and I've had it in a couple of different
instances the fact that we canhave an emotional support dog
and that we, the general public,doesn't really understand what
that means.
They see it as just go get adog.
Go get a dog.
Any dog, any dog will do.
Go get your favorite brand ofdog and bring it into the house.
I will sign the paperwork.
They can't kick you out of yourapartment.
Now you've got this dog.
Well, what if that dog happenedto be a working lines German

(34:54):
shepherd?
That its thing is jumping intopeople's faces and grabbing
clothes and barking at people?
And now this dog that wassupposed to bring you comfort
has your landlord puttingeviction notices on your door.
How are we going to fix that?
So part of it is sometimes Ican't help that one person, but

(35:19):
I can bring knowledge andunderstanding because I'm on
teams.
I can bring it to the therapiston my team and they can bring
to the therapist that they workwith and I can say can I come
talk to the social workers as awhole when you have your monthly
meeting?
And I have on my signature forall of my work with these

(35:41):
clients.
I've got a free body languagewebinar link on there Learn
about body language.
I will talk to the servicefacilitator and say I had one
person that I was going to workwith and decided I don't think
I'm going to be safe doing that.
This was a pit bull.
That was a single mother with achild that had autism spectrum

(36:03):
disorder and she had somesubstance abuse history and her
own mental health challenges andwhat she wanted was a dog.
That would.
You know the typical person whocomes forward and says I want a
protection dog, but I want themto know who to bark at and who
not to bark at.
And we have to say the dogcan't learn that.
So that was what she wanted.

(36:25):
She wanted the dog who would goafter the person who was meant
something bad towards her childand not bother anyone else, and
she had started sicking the dogon people that were cutting
through her yard.
That shouldn't have been to thepoint where, when the child was
laughing happily in ahigh-pitched voice, the dog was

(36:48):
going into attack mode.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
And attacking.
One instance was on a swing set.
The dog was in a dog park witha six-foot chain link fence and
the child was outside swingingand was screaming and laughing
and the dog scaled the fence andattacked the swing.
And the dog scaled the fenceand attacked the swing.
At that point I was.
I'm not going to do thisbecause if that child screams in

(37:11):
the home I'm going to be theone they go after because I'm
not the safe person.
So if we can't guarantee thatyou're going to have that dog
tethered or with a muzzle, thenwe can't do it.
But then I do contact theservice facilitators and I do
talk to the team and let themknow that there are issues with
this dog.
This dog has bitten people andwhen I've gone into the home you
know maybe a different dog thatwas fearful I can see this dog

(37:33):
is terrified of people coming inthe door but nobody's
recognizing it.
You know, the first time I metanother pit bull is huge.
Ted was this big.
Took me three months to makegreat friends with this dog but
he was fabulous.
After I made friends with him,but the first time I met him I
could tell he was terrified andthe service facilitator didn't

(37:54):
recognize that, the familydidn't recognize that, the
client didn't recognize that,and I was thinking, oh, I'd
really like to put that dog in adifferent room and they're like
well, he just needs to warm upto you.
Well, the second time I met withthis client, this particular
one had difficulties puttingleashes and collars where they
could easily find them, and so Iwas standing outside waiting

(38:17):
for them to come out for oursession and the dog came flying
out the door, no collar, noleash and muzzle, punched me in
the groin and big enough that itleft a pretty big bruise.
I said to him you know, if hehad had his mouth open, you know
it would have been a wholedifferent story.
But they weren't recognizingthat it's the other person's

(38:38):
fault.
They're leaning over his faceand that kind of thing.
So it's so much of it iseducating of what does the body
language look like?
When is it safe, when is it notsafe?
I know that someone leaningover him.
When you say don't lean overhim, it doesn't matter whose
fault it is, because at thispoint they've bit somebody in
the face, it doesn't matterwhose fault it is anymore.
And so really drawing a line ofyou know, if we can't

(39:02):
consistently put the muzzlewhere the dog isn't going to
chew it up, or work with themuzzle once a day in between
sessions, we just can't continueworking and it becomes really a
point of when the client is ina mind space where they're able
to, you know, come forward andsay, okay, I'm ready to, ready

(39:23):
to do this now, and kind of hasto be their decision of I'm.
You know, I realize now I'm notready to do this yeah I have
mentioned to care caregivers andstuff that you know we probably
need to look at this.
But in the end it's just likewith dog training.
I can say I'm not comfortableworking with a dog anymore
unless we do this, this and this, but I can't say you have to

(39:48):
blah, blah, blah.
So in the end it becomesusually in that instance I kind
of share my concerns with theteam and with the client and
their caregivers and then I haveto say I can't do anymore.
Yeah, and walk away, kind oflike we have to do in just
standard aggressive dog training.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, it's important.
We all have the option to walkaway, whether it's the client
from the dog.
In some situations we have togive them that permission.
The professional working withthe case also should have that.
Unfortunately, the dogs don'talways have the option to just
decide they need to walk away.
Always have the option to justdecide they need to walk away.

(40:28):
So you must have had some caseswhere there's an attachment but
you're worried about safety aswell.
So let's say it's a parentthat's like oh, we've got this,
as you had mentioned, they want,like this, quote unquote
emotional support animal fortheir child.
But then the child that youwalk in.
You're like, ooh, this is apotential bite risk to the child
and maybe nobody's recognizingthat.
But maybe the child is doingthings to intensify that

(40:50):
potential Nobody's recognizing.
So what do you do in thosecases?
That's got to be incrediblychallenging to navigate that
conversation.
Be like listen, I'm worriedabout your child's safety and
the parent's like, no, no, thisis the therapy dog.
Can't you see them gettingalong?

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah, it it's like no , no, this is the therapy dog.
Can't you see them gettingalong?
Yeah, it's educating the, thecaregiver, on body language,
what the dog is saying,educating the client themselves
on what is the dog saying andreally working with.
What are all the fun things wecan do with this dog that don't
involve getting in their face,touching them, grabbing,

(41:25):
grabbing them, all this kind ofthing?
So I try to open the window towhat are all the things that we
can do that are fun games thatdon't involve touching.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
What if you are at a point where you're not even
saying well, I'm not even gonnarecommend that because it's not
safe for that interaction tohappen Like?
I've had a couple cases likethat where it's chilling, it's
really chilling.
You see, the dog is like.
This dog does not want to benear this child and in fact I
suspect if we do.
You know so I've been in onewhere the dog was crated and the
dog was just hard staring thechildren.

(41:56):
It was the first introduction.
Fortunately they didn'tintroduce the dog to a child.
That was a scary case.
Yeah, so you have to sometimesbreak that news.
But there was fortunately norelationship.
But you might have cases whereyou're like I'm not going to
recommend play.
I'll teach them about bodylanguage so that they can start
to recognize things.
Do you ever get yelled at orpushback?

Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah, I do.
And then at that point whatreally works on my side because
I work with a team is I can goto the team with it, or I can go
directly to the servicefacilitator and say, hey, this
is what I see, what can we do?
Because they have a little morepush with the client, because
they can say we can't continueservices if it's not safe.

(42:38):
Right, if the dog in your homeis not safe with your child or
with someone else coming intothe home, we can't have any
services.
And so there have been caseswhere they have rehomed a dog or
something like that.
But for me I have a backup thatI can talk to and say hey, I'm
seeing this, they're giving mepushback.
Can you help out?

(42:59):
Or I'll bring it up at the teammeeting.
We're struggling with thisright now meeting.
You know we're struggling withthis right now.
So how can we help with that?
How can we remind the parentsthat the dog needs to be behind
a gate until we've workedthrough some of this?
And so those clients that havea lot of providers coming into
their home can help kind of backme up and say why isn't the dog

(43:23):
behind the gate, and that kindof thing.
But again, in the end it's oneof those cases where I can say
I'm worried for the child andlet the service facilitator know
, and then they can go down theroute of talking to their
supervisor and moving into childprotective services or anything
like that.
So it takes a lot of the weightoff of me because I reported to

(43:47):
somebody else and then they goup the line.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yes, yeah, I always recommend to the trainers that
may not have the same network asyou to at least familiarize
yourself with what to do andfinding the right resources, the
appropriate resources, I shouldsay.
So let's spend some timetalking about what we're doing
to help the unique cases thatyou're taking.
Let's say we have for theanimal pros listening in.

(44:10):
They want to know how to adapttheir consulting skills to a
particular condition that theclient might be experiencing,
whether it's post-traumaticstress or ADHD.
Can you talk more generallyabout how you adapt and what you
would recommend for trainerswanting to learn more about this
too?

Speaker 2 (44:26):
Yeah.
So I think a lot of it isasking questions and listening
and watching the interactionbetween the person and the dog
and learning everything you can.
So if you find out you have aclient with ADHD, go out there
and learn everything you canabout ADHD and what we're doing
to help the human side of it.
So then we can kind of extendthat to the dog.

(44:48):
So things like when we'reworking with someone with
depression or anxiety, I can'thave a, you have to cancel 24
hours ahead or whatever I haveto adapt that to.
I'm going to text you in themorning and say confirm, are you
okay to meet today?
Because sometimes they're not.
Sometimes the day before we'vehad a team meeting and they're

(45:09):
like I can't wait for oursession tomorrow.
And then I text them the nextmorning.
They're like I can't do ittoday and if I don't hear from
you I'm not going to call, I'mnot going to bother you, because
I know you may be having a hardday.
If I don't hear from you withinabout, depending on how far I
am with you an hour to a halfhour ahead of time I'm just
going to assume we're not goingto meet today, and so that is

(45:30):
one thing that I think we allkind of, because we're used to
saying this person is coming tome, they're paying for services,
therefore they need to cancelwithin 24 hours, or I'm going to
charge them anyway.
But now we're working withsomeone who is in a space where
maybe 24 hours ago I was fine,but this morning I'm not anymore

(45:52):
, and so that, I think, is a bigthing.
I think another thing isthinking about what their
sensitivities are, becauseanother thing that we have is
kind of sensitivities to smellsand to tactile sensitivities.
And so me, as a dog trainer, Iwill say well, if it's not going
to work for a piece of kibble,use hot dog, or use cheese, or

(46:13):
use a stinky treat whateverworks, use it.
But what if that texture of ahot dog is just completely
off-putting and I can't do that?
Or what if I don't like thefeel of the dog's teeth scraping
on my fingers as they take itout of my hand?
I don't like them licking myhand.
So now, what are we going to do?

(46:35):
And so, with those clients, Iwill do you want to wear gloves?
You can wear your own gloves, Iwill bring gloves.
We will take breaks for them togo wash their hands.
Sometimes in the middle ofsession they'll say this smells
bothering me, so we'll switch toa different treat.
Maybe last week it was cheese,this week it's a salmon treat.
Some of them are like you know,this smells like beef jerky,

(46:58):
right, you know.
I'll say, well, I bet itdoesn't taste that way.
And they'll say will you everhave tried it?
And I'll say no, and so we'lleach take a little bite of a dog
treat.
You know just those differentthings that you're just kind of.
I never thought of it that way.
Sometimes in the middle of thesession they'll say can you
start doing it?
Or we toss the treat instead ofhanding it to the dog, or

(47:19):
they'll use I've got a PVC tubethat I keep around for dogs that
bite on the leash, you know, tothread it over the leash.
What is this?
And I'll tell them what it'sfor.
Oh, you know, we could use thisto drop treats through, and so
then it becomes their habit of.
I didn't like the dog touchingmy hand anyway, so now I've got
a tool I can drop that treatthrough there, and so really

(47:49):
kind of, if the person is notcomplying or you feel like
you've broken it down to a pointwhere anybody can do that and
it's super simple to reallylisten for and ask the questions
of why isn't it happening?
Is it the smell of the treats?
Is it, you know?
Because Anna Marie Barcelos,who works with Daniel Miller or
Daniel Mills, excuse me on somepapers, I think she's in Brazil

(48:13):
has done some papers on.
We always look at adding a dogto the home is always a positive
influence.
It's wonderful.
She looks at it from bothspectrums.
If that animal develops abehavior problem now it's
negatively impacting thatperson's mental health.
So she has a really neatvalence quadrant thing that she
set up with the high and lowvalence and the low and high
arousal and then she puts in dogthings like petting the dog,

(48:37):
interacting with the dog, andwhat you see when you look at
that quadrant thing is pettingthe dog falls both in low
valence and high valence.
And if it's in low valence,sometimes petting the dog is
what takes the relationship withthe person from low to high
valence.
Petting the dog's ears may befabulous.

(48:59):
Petting the dog's tail?
Don't want to do that.
Having the dog touch their noseon me can't deal with that.
But me touching the dog's nosewhen I want to is great, and so
it's really interesting how youhave to really come down to why
aren't they just using hot dogs,like I told them to do?

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
You know.
So that kind of thing andbreaking it down with the kids
with different things is whatcould we do to help that
relationship.
So I had a dog that was kind ofthing, and breaking it down
with the kids with differentthings is what could we do to
help that relationship.
So I had a dog that was kind offearful.
So I set up a little free workcourse from Sarah Fisher's Ace
Free Work and we set it up onlike an eight by 10 rug in the
basement and the dog was doingit.

(49:40):
The client came in and kind ofwalked by and plunked down on a
chair kind of hard, kind of satdown hard and the dog jumped and
kind of rushed away and thenshe came back and I you know why
do you think she did that?
And then we got to talkingabout well, what kind of toys do
you play with that the dogmight be afraid of?
Well, it turns out they playNerf guns and sometimes when
they're shooting each other theyalso shoot the dog.

(50:01):
What can we do with free workon this eight by 10 carpet that
is going to keep the dog on thecarpet?
So can you put your Nerf gundown and add some treats and
then, in the middle of thissession, walk over, pick up the

(50:22):
Nerf gun and set it back down ina manner that isn't going to
cause this dog to run away, andso kind of looking at what is
the relationship.
Yeah, so much of it is just offthe cuff.
Oh well, that's weird.
Let's, let's work on that.
You know, just really watchingthe client.
When is the client done?
I can tell with some of myclients.

(50:43):
They start making silly noises,they start wanting to roll
around on the floor more andwrestle with the dog versus
playing.
So then that cues to me we'vegot to take a break, we've got
to do something different.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
Yeah, yeah, we keep going back to this theme of
really understanding.
You know, once there'sunderstanding and that's really
kind of the next level ofbehavior consulting right,
Getting really good consultingskills is to notice those little
cues you're talking about, Likesomebody saying, can you do it
first, and most of us sometimessure we'll do it, but if we
don't recognize that's their wayof saying, you know, I actually

(51:17):
don't want to do what you'retelling me to do right now, like
touching those hot dogs orsomething.
And then if we do recognizethat, I find the clients are
like wow, Mike gets me, or likehe's understanding this.
Or Carrie's like oh they, theyrecognizing that I'm a little
uncomfortable with this.
So that builds, you're showingunderstanding and empathy as
well as awareness of you knowwhat they might be having

(51:38):
challenges with, and that buildstrust, Right.
So yeah, and next level stuffwe can do as trainers and
consultants that we don't oftentalk about or think about.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
You know, and sometimes, just like our other
clients, we say is this going towork for you?
Yeah, and they say, oh, yeah,sure, I can do that, yeah.
But then when it comes down toactually doing that hot dog,
it's like, oh no, I thought Icould, but there's no way I'm
going to be able to do this.
Yeah.
And then they're sometimesafraid to say why they didn't do
it.
And so it's up to me to say,when they're asking me to hand

(52:12):
the dog the treats today, thattells me I'm working with the
treat they don't want to workwith, right.
And so I'll say well, what ifwe used I've got some cheese
treats in there?
What if we use these ones?
And I'll carry different treatsin my bag and say you know, you
know which one do you want towork with today?
Or sometimes they'll go I'llsay does the smell of their dog
food bother you?
And you know okay, well, go geta cup of dog food, let's use

(52:33):
that today, you know.
So it's really observing ratherthan kind of and I don't want
to say calling them out on thecarpet, but kind of forcing them
into the spotlight, of saying,because a lot of times,
sometimes the caregivers willsay well, it usually comes to
when, the couple times ithappens it's been when the kids

(52:53):
have transferred from, like,grade school to middle school
and there's that huge transition.
They're just feeling like rightnow I can't continue working
with the dog, but I don't wantto tell Carrie that because I
don't want to make her feel bad,and so the caregiver will tell
me that.
And so then I suggest, you knowwhat, if we just took a break
and let you get settled in withschool?
And so it's kind of how can Imake a suggestion of changing

(53:17):
something that I can tell isbothering them, without turning
the camera on them and sayingyou need to tell me what's
happening, because they get thatso much, and even asking
questions like for mindfulness.
You know, everybody wants to domindfulness with them and
everybody is teaching them deepbreathing and I get kids who
tell me I hate deep breathing.

(53:38):
Everybody makes me do that.
And so for mindfulness, we'llagain work through the dog.
We'll close our eyes or laydown on the floor and just okay,
what do we hear?
What do we smell?
What else do you think your dogis hearing?
That?
We can't hear this.
You know, if we sit down and bereally quiet.
We can hear the train way off.
How far away do you think thetrain was when the dog could

(54:00):
hear it?
And just that kind of thing.
Or let's just lay on the floorand let's just see if the dog
will lay down next to us.
I take the mindfulness kind ofdown a different route because a
lot of those kids are tellingme I Mindfulness kind of down a
different route because a lot ofthose kids are telling me I
don't want to do deep breathing.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Everybody tells me to do deep breathing, and it
doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, I think it's really a matter of for us as
behaviorists and dog trainers.
Working with any of our clientsis really learning a lot of
that, and Tag Teach has a greatclass on human body language and
really learning what their bodylanguage is telling us about
what they're not vocally tellingus, and we do it with dogs.

(54:39):
We've learned to do it withdogs so we can do it with human
clients too.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
I want to jump into that topic a little bit more,
and also things like recognizingemotional dysregulation, right.
But before we get into that,just side question on as
trainers we often talk about,you know we can't be saying
things like your dog needsProzac, because then we'd be
practicing veterinary medicine,or your dog should eat this
particular diet, because unlesswe're veterinary nutritionists

(55:03):
or we have that degree orexpertise, we could be breaking
some ethical boundaries there.
So, given your work with humanhealth professionals, mental
health professionals, do youever get into those
conversations about?
Okay, carrie, you know you'relearning about this stuff.
So and I think it's important,I think that's one of the best
pieces of advice you can give islike go learn about these

(55:24):
conditions.
So you have an understanding.
You can know what to look forand be empathetic.
But when does it get into thatgray area of saying, okay, we're
going to now be potentiallypracticing therapy or human
therapy with our clients.
How does that work for you?

Speaker 2 (55:40):
You know, coming from the dog training world and
working with youth or theaggression and dog stuff and
going to the great big dogaggression workshop and hearing
Chris Pockle speak of we allhave to stay in our lane.
I am so much a stay in yourlane person but then I got into
this and I am not seen as justthe dog trainer.

(56:03):
They are asking for input, likecan you ask them about this?
They're not meshing with theirtherapist and they're not
talking to their therapist, butthey seem to be connecting with
you.
How can you approach it?
How can you get them to open upabout this?
Because I'm very clear anytimeI say we're having trouble at

(56:23):
school or this and that and theother.
If I think of something likethe taking a break when the
child needs it, not when we haveit scheduled, I am very clear
when I come up with a suggestionof saying I am a dog trainer, I
am not a therapist.
But when I work with dogs whoare struggling, this is how we
approach it and is thissomething that maybe would work

(56:44):
with this person?
I've never had somebody sayyou're trying to be a therapist.
I am having people say if youare willing to help this client
with the welfare of the dog, doit because they're not going to
be able to get it anywhere else.
Many of these clients are lowincome.

(57:04):
How can we get this dog spayed?
A whole line of the things I dois just dog welfare.
If I have a client who isliving in an apartment, they
don't have a car and they haveto walk to the grocery store,
take the bus, they're buying afive pound bag of the cheapest
dog food they can find in thegrocery store because, number

(57:24):
one, they can't get to PetSmartor wherever, and number two,
they can't carry a 30 pound bagof dog food on the bus, smart or
wherever.
And number two, they can'tcarry a 30 pound peg of dog food
on the bus.
And so I've worked with them on.
You're feeding the equivalentof Alpo or whatever I don't want
to call anybody out, but theequivalent of a not good, mainly
corn-based dog food, let's say,and you're paying a lot for it

(57:48):
in the grocery store.
What do you think you couldafford per month for dog food?
And let's look on Chewy.
Or let's look at here we haveFarm and Fleet, which is like a
tractor supply or a Menards,which is kind of similar and can
we look on there to find abetter quality dog food at that
price where they will actuallydeliver it to you on a monthly

(58:11):
basis?
I have quote unquote diagnosedyour dog needs to see a vet.
Right, I'm seeing a runny nose,I'm seeing a cough, I'm seeing
a limp.
They do need to see a vet.
Or your dog is not getting itsshots.
You can afford to go and paythe $15 for the low cost rabies
shot, but you can't afford thelepto parvo.

(58:32):
Whatever I can buy that.
You can go to Farm and Fleetand buy that, because in
Wisconsin you can give your ownshots.
You can go and buy that for$7.99, and I will give it to
your dog for you, which isessentially crossing a line In
this state.
It's legal to do, but that dogwould not be getting that care
otherwise.
They're just not.
I've worked with five-year-olddogs who've never seen a vet.

(58:54):
Never seen a vet for anything.
I will help them do grooming, Iwill help them cut out mats, I
will help them clip nails,anything that is kind of
considered for the welfare ofthe dog.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Yeah, that's a really great distinction you're making
, because when we're looking atfrom a team framework, we're
really also asking the client.
You know, help me understandwhat you're making, because when
we're looking at from a teamframework, we're really also
asking the client.
You know, help me understandwhat you're going through, help
me understand your condition,educate me about you know what
your needs are, and so we're notcoming in there and diagnosing.
You've got this and you need todo this for X, y or Z.
I'm here to help and you giveme the information and we'll

(59:27):
work as a team, maybe with the,a human mental health
professional, and so, yeah, I, Ilove that distinction yeah, and
I'm always given a set of goals.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Right, I'm given a set of goals of help with better
social cuing or um, creatingempathy or impulse control, or
you know I'm always getting.
This is a set of goals we'reworking for you.
Do you with the dog and how youcan work towards those goals?
Make progress towards thosegoals and working with the dog
and how you can work towardsthose goals.
Make progress towards thosegoals and working with the
client through their dog.
And if it becomes a matter ofwell, they're not talking to me,

(01:00:01):
so will they talk to you?
I actually went and gotcertified as a pet loss
bereavement specialist throughPet Loss Partners so that I
could talk to kids about petgrief, because we're seeing
behaviors in school due to thefact that they've lost a pet in
the home.
They won't talk to theirtherapist about it.

(01:00:21):
They won't talk to theirclients about it, but they
connect with me because I lovetheir dog too.
Yeah, so I will have follow-up.
You know, building memory boxesand talking through that kind
of starting them along the pathof grief, that's considered
therapy in my mind, but theywon't talk to anybody else about
it.
And so my team is saying,carrie, if they will talk to you

(01:00:44):
, do it, because if they willstart opening up to you, then
they'll start opening up toother people.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
So let's shift now to what we were talking about
earlier, which is the emotionaldysregulation you might
recognize as trainers.
We see it in dogs.
We know things to do, like yourdog needs a time out or a break
.
Let's do a treat scatter, let'sdo some enrichment, let's make
sure your dog's getting enoughsleep, let's talk to the vet
about meds, like we have all ofour typical things we do for
dogs.
But what about the people?

(01:01:11):
So for the animal proslistening in right now, what are
some tips you would give?
You mentioned tact, teaching,learning to read body language
of humans in the moment.
So let's think about, likeduring a session, you're
recognizing something you cansee.
You know the child checking outor doing other activities that

(01:01:32):
you can see.
They're done with the session,or it's something where it's
maybe an adult.
They're getting nervous and yousee the anxiety on their face.
And when they're out, we'reabout to do a leash reactivity
session or something like that.
So what are your tips there torecognize it?
And then what are just a fewdifferent strategies you do in
those moments?

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Yeah, sometimes with and I work more with kids and
adults in this program and it'stalking to them about they'll be
kind of getting a little morearoused and the dog is getting
more aroused.
Maybe the dog is starting tobite their hand and then I can
tell that they're kind ofgetting.
Ooh, I don't like that.
And so I'll say you know, is hegrabbing your hand a little bit

(01:02:06):
more?
Why do you think he's doingthat?
Let's try doing this and we'lldo a scatter or we'll change the
activity up all together.
Or you know, if I kind of seethat they're totally done with
the session with some of thekids, I've got like a activity
that I pull out that they lovedoing, but we don't do it every
single week because otherwise wewould just be doing it.

(01:02:27):
That's all we'd be doing.
And so, for example, I have oneclient who, when he starts to,
I'm done and he's, I can tellhe's he is instigating rough
play with the dogs and kind ofgetting those dogs aroused and
stuff.
So I can tell he's escalatingbecause he's trying to get the
dogs to escalate with him.
And so I will say, oh, you knowwhat I brought?

(01:02:50):
My spinner toy.
And my spinner toy is a Kongwobbler and the way he does it
is he does and maybe not properto say, but he does more of a
spin the bottle kind of thing.
He'll fill it with dog food andthen he spins it and the food
flies out and the dogs just do atreat scatter with it.
He absolutely loves doing that.

(01:03:10):
Just do a treat scatter with it.
He absolutely loves doing thatand it calms him down and it's a
really good way to kind ofbring him back down, bringing
him back into himself.
And we laugh about the dogs.
You know they're getting thatone, they're not finding that
one, and that's a reallypositive way to leave the
session.
Sometimes I'll end the sessionsearly and say you know, my
sessions are anywhere, generallybetween 30 minutes and an hour,

(01:03:33):
but you know, sometimes we'llgo 15 minutes and it's you know,
we're just gonna play with thedog today.
Or I will be perfectly honest,I have had a session where the
client was not ready to workwith the dog but wanted to talk.
So we talked about dogs.
Where did the word hound comefrom, you know?

(01:04:02):
And just I bring along books ondog breeds and we will look up
their dog.
What was your dog created to doand we'll talk about that and
just anything that I can seethem kind of becoming
dysregulated, that I can bringthem back in before they go over
threshold and then end thesession and leave it there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
Amazing, amazing Good advice.
And, carrie, thank you so muchfor all of this information and
for chatting.
Where can people find you ifthey want to learn more about
what you do?

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
So my business is called Crimson Hound so they can
find me at crimsonhoundcom.
I'm on Facebook and InstagramCrimson Hound Training.
I do have a support group forreactive dog owners through
Crimson Hound and we do once amonth kind of free group
sessions to kind of chat aboutthings.

(01:04:46):
Anybody's free to join thatFacebook group With my grief
support.
I've got Pause and Remember.
So I have a grief support groupon Facebook and I do individual
sessions online and I also dofree group support sessions with
that as well.
So fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Thank you so much, carrie, and I hope to chat with
you again in the future.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me and letting me
bring this kind of awarenessforward me bring this kind of
awareness forward.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
It was truly a pleasure to speak with Carrie
and explore how the human caninerelationship is shaped by
emotional understanding, trustand individualized care.
Her insights remind us thatsuccessful training often starts
with empathy for both ends ofthe leash.
And if you're ready to godeeper into understanding and
helping dogs with aggression,visit aggressivedogcom.
Whether you're a professionalor dedicated dog guardian,

(01:05:37):
you'll find everything from theAggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive program of its
kind, to expert-led webinars,informative articles and the
Aggression and Dogs Conferencehappening from September 26th to
28th 2025 in Charlotte, northCarolina, with both in-person
and virtual options.
And don't forget to check outour Help for Dogs with

(01:05:59):
Aggression bonus episodes, whichare solo shows where I walk you
through real-world strategiesfor issues like resource
guarding, fear-based aggression,territorial behavior and more.
Just hit, subscribe or head tothe show notes for more info.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.
You.