Your Dog Bit Someone—Now What Happens? With Attorney Heidi Meinzer

The unpredictable nature of dog bites creates a legal labyrinth that can overwhelm even the most responsible owners and professionals. Attorney and dog trainer Heidi Meinzer pulls back the curtain on what really happens when teeth meet skin, revealing critical insights that could save your dog's life and protect your financial future.

From the moment a bite occurs, you're facing a cascade of legal consequences few people truly understand. Animal control's immediate focus on rabies verification is just the beginning. The parallel tracks of dangerous dog proceedings and potential civil liability cases unfold with dramatically different timelines, procedures, and outcomes depending on your jurisdiction. Meinzer expertly guides us through the stark differences between states like Virginia, where a court must deem a dog dangerous, and Maryland, where animal control makes this determination subject to appeal.

The financial stakes have never been higher. With average dog bite settlements skyrocketing from $18,000 to over $54,000 in recent years, insurance companies often choose to settle quickly rather than fight—even in questionable cases. For professionals working with dogs, Meinzer outlines three essential protective layers: forming a separate business entity, securing appropriate insurance from providers who understand the industry, and implementing comprehensive contracts that clearly define responsibilities and limitations.

About Heidi:

https://apdt.com/about/board-and-staff/

Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com

Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference

Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes

Check out all of our webinars, courses, and educational content here:
Webinars, courses, and more!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
In this episode, I sit down with attorney and dog
trainer Heidi Meinzer to explorethe legal landscape surrounding
dog bites and dangerous doglaws.
We dive into what reallyhappens after a bite incident,
how jurisdictions definedangerous versus vicious dogs,
and what trainers, shelters andguardians need to know about

(00:23):
their responsibilities andprotections, and what trainers,
shelters and guardians need toknow about their
responsibilities and protections.
Heidi also shares herperspective on the growing
financial liability in dog bitecases and the steps we can take
to reduce risk and advocateeffectively for both dogs and
their people.
Heidi is an attorney and dogtrainer based in Alexandria,
virginia, specializing in animallaw and small business
non-profit law.

(00:43):
She began her legal career as apublic defender and later
transitioned to civil litigationbefore opening her own practice
focused on animal-relatedissues.
Heidi serves on the boards ofthe Virginia Federation of
Humane Societies and theAssociation of Professional Dog
Trainers International, and sheenjoys canine nose work with her
dogs, sophie and Boomer.

(01:04):
Before we jump into today'sepisode, a quick heads up If
you're looking to learn moreabout helping dogs with
aggression issues, head on overto AggressiveDogcom, because
we've got something for everyone.
For pet pros, there's theAggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
on aggression, packed withexpert insights and CEUs For dog

(01:25):
guardians.
Check out Real Life Solutions,a practical course for everyday
challenges like leash reactivityand dog-to-dog aggression.
And if you want full access toexpert webinars, live mentor
sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access Membership
is just $29.95 a month.
You'll also find info on the2025 Aggression and Dogs

(01:48):
Conference happening inCharlotte this September.
That's all at AggressiveDogcom.
Check it out after the show.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.
This week, we're talking abouthow to keep ourselves out of
jail, as well as our dogs out ofjail and keeping them out of

(02:10):
trouble, because I've got HeidiMeinzer here and her specialty
is she's a lawyer and she knowsdogs, so I couldn't think of a
perfect guest for thisparticular topic.
So welcome to the show, heidi.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Thank you very much, Mike.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
So what area of law do you practice and kind of,
what got you into what you'redoing now?

Speaker 2 (02:31):
One of my main areas of law is animal law and small
business nonprofit law as well,so I represent through my own
law firm.
I've been representing a lot ofdog owners, shelters, rescues,
dog walkers, trainers, doggydaycares you name it Because I'm
a trainer as well.
I especially love to do workwith trainers and trainer

(02:54):
contracts, helping them maybe beexperts in a dangerous dog case
, etc.
How I got into it was actuallypretty interesting.
As a kid I thought maybe Iwanted to be a zoologist or I
didn't know what, you know whatexactly, and it just didn't pan
out.
I went into the humanities, wentinto law school, was a public
defender for six years or so,went into civil litigation and

(03:17):
right around that time at thatlaw firm I got a very shy, sweet
German shepherd mix from arescue and she brought me into
contact with about every trainerin the Washington DC area where
I am.
I'm in Northern Virginia.
Right around the same timethose folks started having
questions, legal questions, andone of the people called me one

(03:41):
day about a dangerous dog caseand I just realized oh my gosh,
this is what I'm supposed to do.
That moment really helped mefocus my practice.
I stayed with that firm forabout seven years and then in
2013, I set up my own law firmand when I first opened, it did

(04:02):
nothing but animal law and itwas great, really really got to
do a deep dive into all thingsanimal, especially dog, with the
law.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
And so your area?
Did you see?
You're kind of defendingclients when their dogs bite as
well as the other side, or wereyou concentrating on one side?

Speaker 2 (04:21):
I really concentrated on one side to do the plaintiff
side of dog bites.
A lot of attorneys docontingency rates and it's very
hard to do that.
You're either going to doalmost all of that or none of it
for it to pay off, and it's notreally the side that drew me
right.
So I would often be on the sideof the dog who bit and the

(04:45):
owner, and usually in thedangerous dog world instead of
the civil liability world,because usually there was some
kind of insurance and some a lawfirm who typically works with
the insurance company would berepresenting in the civil
liability case and I might behelping, but there would be a

(05:05):
separate dangerous dog case thatwould not be covered by
insurance.
So that would be primarily mypiece of it.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, I've kind of been paying attention to the
figures that come out.
The Insurance Institute, Ibelieve, releases the average
dog bite lawsuit and when Istarted looking at them, even
just six or seven years ago,it's around $18,000 or something
like that, and correct me ifI'm wrong here.
And then the most recentstatistics, I think it was
around $54,000, and it's evengone up since then.

(05:35):
So is that the trend you'reseeing, as well as you're seeing
just much more interest, so tospeak, in the litigation around
dog bites and the awareness that, hey, this could be sort of a
way for people to kind of sayall right, because I've heard of
stories like people that gointo yards and they purposely
get bitten because of thepotential for the lawsuit, the

(05:57):
amounts that are happening.
So are you seeing this trendand it's just much more the
lawsuits, amounts going up andall that.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think the amount it's just much more.
The lawsuits amounts going upand all that.
Yeah, I mean I think the amountit's just.
It's just the nature of ourcivil liability system.
Here in America we have chosenwhat's called the American rule,
where pretty much everybodypays their own attorney's fees
and if a plaintiff brings afrivolous suit, a defendant
usually doesn't have a way tocollect those attorney's fees.

(06:26):
Versus in England or otherplaces, if it is a truly
frivolous suit or a trulyfrivolous defense, you may be
able to collect your fees.
So when that happens, it's kindof you know, people are willing
to gamble, right.
And if you know, some insurancecompanies will just say, well,
let me just get out of this,right, the damages aren't that

(06:47):
much, I'm just going to pay offthis claim and get out Right.
And some insurance companiesare known for being very not
afraid to litigate.
But if you litigate you'regoing to have fees involved in
that.
You're going to have positionsand court hearings and motions
and pleadings, and that's whereI think that 18,000 or 50,000, I

(07:09):
mean to even get to that pointbefore trial you're spending
that much money, right?
It's not a pretty fact, I think, about our system.
It's just not.
It's not perfect, but that'swhat happens, unfortunately,
with our system.
So plaintiff's attorneys willfile something that maybe
doesn't have significant damages, because they know they might

(07:31):
get 20,000 just to go away.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
So, yeah, yeah yeah, and so that's just talking about
the financial ramifications fordog bites.
So let's get into some of theother things, because a lot of
our listeners, of course, areeither working with dog bite
cases or their own dog hasbitten.
So what are the most commonoutcomes or ramifications of
sort of bad stuff that canhappen when a dog bites?
Now, I know it's jurisdictiondependent, but you know, can you

(07:55):
expand more on that?

Speaker 2 (07:57):
Sure.
So if somebody calls me in apanic, going oh my gosh, my dog
bit, what happens now?
The very very first thing isyou're almost certainly going to
get a visit from animal control.
Even if there ends up being nodangerous dog case, no civil
liability case, there is aemergency right off the bat of

(08:18):
making sure that dog had arabies vaccination.
That's the very first thingeverybody's going to want to
know.
A rabies vaccination, that'sthe very first thing everybody's
going to want to know.
Because, as you know, there'sno cure and whether it's dog on
dog or especially when it's adog on a human, especially if
they're skin broken, at leasteach jurisdiction has that
threshold of when they're goingto put the dog into rabies

(08:41):
quarantine.
It's usually, you know, brokenskin, obviously for a human.
At that point they're going tohave probably like a 10 day
quarantine or so.
You might be able to quarantinein your house, you might have
to take the dog to a vet or theshelter to quarantine, but the
animal cross is going to want tosee that rabies vaccination
certificate.
So that's the very first thingI tell everybody cooperate,

(09:04):
cooperate, cooperate.
That is nothing you want tomess around with.
And then my brain goes to thetwo civil things that can happen
, right, the second thing beingmight there be a civil lawsuit
for damages?
And again, every jurisdictionis very, very different,

(09:28):
especially on the dangerous dogside.
Sometimes it's local, sometimesit's state.
It can vary locality tolocality Within a state.
That can look very different.
And then the civil liability.
Oftentimes there's a statute oflimitations of somewhere around
two years could be more or less, depending on the state.
So that civil liability thingwon't necessarily kick in

(09:51):
immediately.
But some decisions that youmake, you know, do I pay the
medical expenses or other things?
You know.
You can have that in mind.
You can think ahead as to howthat might look in the dangerous
dog case or the civil liabilitycase, even though that
proceeding may not pop up foranother year or two.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
And then can animal control stipulate some things
like your dog must be on amuzzle, or your dog has to be on
lesion or containment.
Is that also jurisdictiondependent?

Speaker 2 (10:23):
It is jurisdiction dependent.
And some places during thequarantine obviously it can be
very strict right.
They do not want that dog tohave any contact with any other
animal or human during thatquarantine.
If you have the rabiescertificate right there and they
know that dog is vaccinated,there can be some loosening of

(10:43):
that depending on thejurisdiction.
But that can be some looseningof that depending on the
jurisdiction but that can bevery tight.
Regarding the dangerous dog,let's say there's a dangerous
dog proceeding.
That can look very differentfrom locality to locality.
For instance, where I am, I'min the Northern Virginia area,
so I have DC, maryland veryclose by and then Virginia.
In Maryland I'm going to get alittle geeky with legal stuff

(11:06):
here they're a home rule stateso each locality can pretty much
do what they want, absent theirgeneral assembly saying, hey,
you cannot do X Y, z.
So they each have.
All the localities have theirown dangerous dog ordinances and
oftentimes in Maryland theanimal control can deem the dog

(11:26):
dangerous and then you have togo appeal it with an
administrative hearing and Ithink ultimately in some or all
of the jurisdictions you couldget to a court too.
In Virginia very different.
In Virginia that dog is notdangerous until a court says
that it is and they have toprove it up.
That said, animal control doeshave the right to seize the dog

(11:48):
pending trial.
Oftentimes, in a case that'snot too egregious, they may not
choose to do that, but then theymay give you some of those
restrictions.
We won't take the dog from youand put the dog in the shelter
pending trial.
But, pending trial, make sureyou do X, y and Z, and that

(12:10):
again can look different animalcontrol agency from animal
control agency about what theywant to see pending trial, and
that term, dangerous dog, isalso sort of interchangeably
used.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
I've seen vicious dog .
There's one other one that I'mforgetting here.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, those are the two I hear the most.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, and so they have different designations, but
they all kind of mean the samein your experience, in terms of
either the courts are placingthat label or an animal control
is giving that label to the dog.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
In Virginia and in other places it is quite
different.
So there's a if the dog gets ina first incident and bites a
human or bites a dog or cat badenough to ring the bell for
dangerous dog, and they aredeemed dangerous.
After that, if the dog attacksagain, then the dog is vicious.

(12:58):
So that we have two verydifferent levels in Virginia and
it makes a huge differencebecause in Virginia if the dog
is dangerous you can still keepthe dog, with a lot of different
conditions you have to meet.
If the dog is deemed vicious,euthanasia is the only outcome.
So it's in Virginia.
It's quite different.
Now other places again can.

(13:18):
They may use theminterchangeably or have a
different system.
There's also if the dog bitesbad enough, you sometimes can go
bump straight to vicious.
If there's a life-threateninginjury to a human, you may bump
straight to vicious also.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
When they're putting stipulations in place.
What are some of the moreextreme cases you've seen?
Because we tend to hear about,oh, your dog must be on leash
and with a muzzle on orcontained on your property.
But I've seen cases where it'sthe dog must be contained only
on property, in a kennel that'swith a chain link fence on top
and a concrete slab underneathso the dog can't dig out and

(13:59):
like all of these really highlevel stipulations.
Have you seen that in your area?

Speaker 2 (14:04):
In Virginia.
Again, our statute is veryspecific.
So if the dog is deemeddangerous, there are a list of
conditions that have to be metand they're the typical ones
you're talking about Muzzledwhile off the property, on leash
while off the property.
Must have a fence that peoplecan't stick their fingers in.
They'll give you some leniencybased on if you already have a

(14:26):
fence up, posted signs on theproperty warning about the dog.
You have to be registered onour dangerous dog registry.
I might be forgetting a coupleother things, but those are the
main things that have to happen.
It's interesting.
So that's for dangerous thosethings have to happen and
there's not much more.
The's for dangerous thosethings have to happen and

(14:46):
there's not much more.
The court can do.
There's not really flexibilityand, like I said with vicious,
it's euthanasia.
There's no other option.
The interesting thing this issomething I worked hard on in
Virginia several years ago.
I worked with one of our localdelegates who carried a bill
that allowed for what's called adeferred adjudication in a

(15:07):
dangerous dog case.
So if the facts show that thedog is dangerous, but the court
believes there are conditionsthat could be met, for a year or
two years, they will hold offon finding the dog dangerous and
kind of put the dog and theowner on probation.
And what's fascinating aboutthat the way that we phrased

(15:28):
that bill, which is now the lawis that the court has total
flexibility so it doesn't haveto do all those things in the
dangerous dog statute.
The court can do whatever theysee fit.
So they could order training,behavior modification, behavior
modification with a positive,reinforcement-based trainer who

(15:48):
isn't going to use prong orchoker shocker.
You can do whatever creativethings you want for that
deferred adjudication.
And the other thing I failed tomention with Dangerous Dog that
is part of that and is oftenpart of a deferred adjudication
is restitution.
If there are direct medicalexpenses for a human or

(16:09):
veterinary expenses for a dog ora cat who's been bit, then the
court can, and usually does,order restitution if those costs
haven't been paid already.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
And that's separate from like a civil suit, correct?

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Correct.
So it wouldn't preclude a civilsuit because you can get other
kinds of damages in a civil suit.
Correct, Correct.
So it wouldn't preclude a civilsuit because you can get other
kinds of damages in a civil suitpain and suffering and that
kind of thing.
The court will not order painand suffering, or I missed a day
of work or whatever.
In the dangerous dog case it'sjust going to be, at least in
Virginia, what was paid formedical expenses?
What was paid for veterinaryexpenses?

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Okay, so we've been talking about the civil side of
things.
For ramifications, what aboutcriminal cases?
We're seeing more of thathappening in the news across the
country, I think, wheresomebody's, for instance, their
dog has been labeled dangerousby the courts or by animal
control and then the dog getsout again, the person's very
careless or negligent and thatperson's charged criminally.

(17:08):
So talk more about those cases.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
And that is the case in Virginia as well that if your
dog is deemed dangerous andyou're sloppy and you don't
muzzle the dog, whatever you do,leave the gate open, the dog
gets out and attacks again.
Not only can that dog be deemedvicious and then euthanized if
found vicious, you, the owner,can and probably will be charged

(17:33):
criminally with a misdemeanorfor failure to comply with the
dangerous dog statute.
So that definitely happens.
And there are other codesections again, like that
instance where the dog mayreally do something horrific to
a human being if it's deemedintentional from the human or at

(17:54):
least grossly negligent,without even having that dog
having been dangerous beforehand.
You could find yourself in thecriminal realm that way as well
find yourself in the criminalrealm that way as well.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
What are some of the outcomes you've seen in these
cases?
Are you seeing long sentencesbeing dished out, or is it more
sort of slaps on the wrist whenyou're talking about these, and
I'm sure there's a varyingdegree, but what have you seen?

Speaker 2 (18:17):
It really does vary.
I mean, if the dog gets out anddoesn't create that much mayhem
, right, they may just bring youin on a criminal charge and
just give you suspended jailtime just to kind of make the
point right and make it knownthat this is serious.
Don't do this again.
I've seen a case where a younglady got pretty severe injuries

(18:39):
from a pack of dogs and therewas some indication of the fact
that those dogs might beproblematic, were left well off
of the property wandering, andthe person didn't do much to get
them back and that did involvesome substantial jail time.
So it really is fact specific.
But you know the court justwants people to know hey, this

(19:02):
is serious.
And oftentimes I've seen theperson charged criminally and
the dog deemed vicious andeuthanized and usually the court
and animal control feel likethat euthanasia is so
emotionally taxing that theydon't necessarily, unless
there's big injuries orsomething else.
Usually that's enough to makethe point right.

(19:23):
So, it just depends case by case, really yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
So, speaking of the legalese here, so we also hear
about the strict liability andone-bite rules, depending again
on the jurisdiction.
Can you walk us through that?

Speaker 2 (19:36):
There aren't that many, although Virginia is one
of them.
There aren't that many one-biterule, one free-bite rule states
left.
Virginia is very, you know,common law based.
We are hanging onto that onefree bite rule.

(19:57):
But even with that rule, if youknew that your dog had
propensity to cause an injury,that may be enough, even if the
dog hasn't actually bit.
So a lot of people don'trealize that the dog's barking
and lunging and going crazy andgoing crazy.
But they're like my dog didn'tbite, but you still might be on
notice enough of that dog'spropensity to perhaps sting the
bell with civil liability.

(20:19):
But for the most part if youhave a perfectly nice dog and
know anything in particular thatthat dog would have any
propensity to cause any injuryand the dog bites in Virginia,
you might not be civilly liableat all for the first bite.
You know if the dog doessomething again, at that point

(20:39):
you would be civilly liable.
A lot of states have felt likeyou know, if you have a dog,
everybody should know that itcould be an issue.
So we're just going to jump tostrict liability, meaning if
your dog bites first time only,you're still going to be liable
because you have a dog and theyhave teeth and we all know that.

(21:00):
So that is just a policydecision, state by state, about
how they have wanted to handleit.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
Can you talk about the cases where it's somebody
you know doing something to adog?
You know they're coming to sellsomething door to door and they
intentionally provoke the dog?
There's some where theselawsuits are happening so
quickly and easily, meaning theinsurance companies are like you
know.
It's better just to settle this, even if that person was like
on the property harassing thedog, breaking into the home you

(21:30):
know doing these things.
We've seen some cases like thathappen where it's like you know
somebody's purposely doingsomething to provoke that dog
bite and then they get paid off.
Have you seen that too?

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Again, I think it's up to the insurance company.
Some of them are more riskaverse than others, right.
But I think in that case thereare so many legal concepts in
the dangerous dog world and thecivil liability world that a dog
owner could invoke to say youassume the risk of coming onto
this property or you were arecontributorily negligent or

(22:05):
comparatively negligent, just togeek out a little on the
legalese.
On that there are policydecisions for each state.
Should we have comparativenegligence or contributory
negligence?
Virginia is still hanging on tocontributory negligence.
That means if a plaintifftypically is just a little bit
negligent, they lose.
They lose, you know, on factslike intentionally provoking the

(22:29):
dog or doing something stupid,right, you can talk about, you
know, assumption of risk orcontributory negligence and you
can block a lawsuit completely.
So an insurance company that'snot that risk averse might
choose to go forward with a caselike that.
If there's a video of it orsomething.
Right, there's a ring video orwho knows what, they may feel

(22:49):
more comfortable trying thatcase For comparative negligence.
Some states have said you know,it's not fair for a plaintiff
who's 10% negligent to losecompletely.
We'll just shave 10% off oftheir award.
So if they win $100,000,they're only going to get
$90,000 if they were 10%negligent.
So again, it's a policydecision for each state about

(23:13):
what they want to do when aplaintiff should have known
better.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Evidence right, which a lot of people do, which is
good.
And so, speaking of kind ofknowing things ahead of time,
what about the beware of dogsigns?
Or you know, warning dog, youknow those kind of signs.
Does that make the homeownersort of say yeah.
I do have a problem dog, or isit?
Hey, I could have a problem dog, so I'm letting you know.
So I'm doing my diligence tolet you know.
How have you seen that play out?

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, I personally say if it makes you and your dog
more comfortable, do it Right.
Because I think if you havethose signs up, I think you do
have a good argument to sayyou've assumed the risk or you
know you were negligent.
You're sticking your fingers inthe fence Like what are you
thinking Right?
But if you didn't know at allthat there was a dog on the

(24:09):
premises?
But if you knew full well, youknow.
I think it helps.
I think in particular, not eventhe signs on the fences, but
the leashes and collars and redbandanas.
I tell people all the time, ifit makes you more comfortable,
do it, you know.
And telling people don't pet mydog, go away, just advocating

(24:34):
for your dog, 100%.
I personally think it is worthit to do it and if, god forbid,
something happens, you do havethat ability to say you assumed
the risk or you should haveknown better, and there are
legal mechanisms to help youmake that argument.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
So you think it's better to let the world know you
could have a problem.
So you're doing your diligencethere versus trying to not give
any indication that a dog bitecan happen, which I think it's
the ethical thing to do right.
And, as you mentioned, we'readvocating for our dogs, which
is, you know, it's kind of we'restepping outside the legal
aspect of what we're talkingabout, but absolutely with the

(25:10):
work we do.
All about that, right.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
That's exactly right and that reminds me too of what
I tell people about should I paythe medical expenses?
Should I pay the vet expenses?
Again, I mean oftentimes it's aneighbor or a relative or you
know what I mean and like themoral thing versus the legal
thing In Virginia, one free biterule you might not be liable,
but it's often the right thingto do.

(25:34):
And as an attorney walking inand representing an owner in a
dangerous dog case, I wouldpresent it as this is somebody
who's really responsible, likethey took this on already and
already took care of theexpenses.
Because they're responsible.
I would want to show, hopefully, you know, your client already
had the dog licensed, alreadyhad the dog vaccinated, already

(25:54):
had you know.
And I would show all thesethings to be able to say you
know, this was a one-off eventwith somebody the dog who's
otherwise hasn't, hopefullyhasn't had any problems, and
with an owner who understandstheir responsibilities and
really took it on themselves tobe responsible.
So I often will tell people ifit's very clear what those

(26:16):
medical expenses and veterinaryexpenses were, ask for copies of
the bills so that you're sureof what you're paying for, and
they should be willing to sharethat with you and if you can
afford to do so, go ahead andtake care of it.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so, speaking of right andwrong, let's talk about
sometimes.
We have rescues or evenshelters.
They have dogs with a bitehistory, and we've seen some of
this locally here in Connecticut, but where dogs are being
adopted out without disclosingthe bite history and then that
dog goes on to bite somebody.

(26:50):
What are the ramifications forthat?

Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, this is what I tell rescues and shelters all
the time Disclose, disclose,disclose.
If you disclose and the persongoes ahead and takes the dog
with eyes wide open, and if youhave good contracts that have
waivers and limitations ofliability, you know you've done
your due diligence.
If you don't disclose, that'swhen you're going to get in

(27:16):
trouble.
And again, it's also like yousaid, it's also the right thing
to do, right.
And in Virginia we have a lawwhere it says flat out that
rescues and shelters must askabout bite history when they
take a dog in.
However, they take that dog in,obviously stray, you won't know
.
But if it's an owner surrender,if you transfer in from another

(27:39):
rescuer shelter, you have toask about bite history.
And then, however the dog goesout whether it is being given
back to the owner, if the dogwas stray, if there was an
incident during, you know whilethey were at the shelter, or if
you're adopting out or you'retransferring to another rescuer
shelter, you have to discloseany bite history become part of

(28:03):
the law because it's reallycommon sense and common decency.
But it just highlights thatfact that if you don't ask and
tell, that's when you're goingto get into trouble and it
should be that way.
It's not fair to pawn off aproblem dog on somebody who
doesn't know what they'regetting themselves into.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Right.
Yeah, I don't think it's talkedabout enough, because people
that rescue animals, of course,are really attached to the
animals that they might befostering or they might have in
their shelter system.
And it can be, you know,sometimes when we have to
disclose that bite history, thatsignificantly reduces the
options for the animal.
So you know, I can understandthat side of it as well as like,

(28:45):
hey, I'm just trying to do thebest for this and if I don't
maybe tell about this one bite,you know you might try to slide
it, but of course that does adisservice to the dogs as well
as the organizations.
I find Absolutely you know,especially if you start seeing a
high frequency of bitehistories coming out of one
organization that can taint, ofcourse, that organization's
reputation, as well as evenbreeds that might be coming out

(29:06):
of that.
So we have to be careful andresponsible, of course, in the
work we do Absolutely, yeah.
So we're going to take a quickbreak to hear a word from our
sponsors and we're going to comeback and talk about what we can
do to protect ourselves,whether we're professionals or
dog guardians.
If you're looking to betterunderstand or work with

(29:29):
aggression in dogs, we've gotfour powerful learning
opportunities for you atAggressiveDogcom, whether you're
a dog pro, a dedicated guardianor somewhere in between.
Let's start with the Real LifeSolutions for Aggression in Dogs
course.
This is a straightforward,practical course designed for
dog guardians struggling withissues like dog-to-human
aggression, dog-to-dogaggression, leash reactivity and

(29:52):
resource guarding.
It's just $147, and you getlifetime access so you can
revisit the material wheneveryou need.
It's perfect if you're lookingfor actionable help with your
dog right away.
For professionals, theAggression and Dogs Master
Course is the most comprehensiveprogram on aggression available
anywhere in the world, withover 20 hours of content.

(30:13):
It covers everything fromassessments and safety to
medical factors and behaviorchange strategies.
You'll also learn from guestexperts like Dr Chris Pachel,
kim Brophy and Jessica Dolce,and join a private Facebook
group with over 2,000 fellowpros actively working aggression
cases.
After finishing, you'll also beinvited to live group mentor

(30:35):
sessions with me and otherexperts where we work through
real world cases together.
The course is CEU approved andall of this is just $595, a
truly career defining experiencefor behavior professionals.
Or do you want to stay pluggedinto the latest learning and
support all year long?
Check out the Ultimate AccessMembership.

(30:57):
For just $29.95 a month, you'llget access to over 30
expert-led webinars, exclusivebonus podcast episodes, vip
mentor sessions with me andexclusive discounts on the
master course and the annualconference.
It's the best way to staycurrent and connected without
breaking the bank.
And finally, don't miss thesixth annual Aggression and Dogs

(31:20):
conference, happening September26th through the 28th 2025 in
Charlotte, north Carolina.
You can attend in person orlive stream from anywhere in the
world, with speakers coveringeverything from body language to
shelter, behavior to genetics,and with an incredible kind and
supportive community.
You won't want to miss it.

(31:40):
Visit aggressivedogcom, clickon courses, membership or the
conference tab and choose thepath that fits you best.
All right, we're back here withHeidi Meinzer.
We've been talking about all ofthe ramifications for dog bites
, but let's get into what peopleshould do if a dog bite happens

(32:02):
.
Maybe we can separate this intoif a dog guardian is there and
their dog just happens to bitesomebody, whether off property
or on property, and then the petpros.
Dog guardian is there and theirdog just happens to bite
somebody, whether off propertyor on property, and then the pet
pros that are out there andthey're overseeing a class or
they're at a park with theirclient and their dog bites
somebody.
So what are the appropriatesteps or responsible steps to
take, especially from a legallens?

Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah.
So I mean from the legal endand just practical end.
First thing first is just makesure that the dogs are separated
and the dog who bit just getsput somewhere safe.
That's the first thing you wantto do make sure that the dog
who bit goes to somewhere safe,protected, where they can calm
down.
And then make sure the peopleare okay, or the other dog or

(32:47):
cat, whoever got bit, is okay.
And again, some people areafraid to like admit anything or
this or that.
But, like I said, I think it'sthe responsible thing to make
sure, because the fact of thematter is somebody got bit right
.
So care for that person, makesure first aid or they get to
where they need to go, whetherit's urgent care, hospital,

(33:07):
whatever.
Make sure they get helpimmediately and as much as you
can, as politely as you can.
If you can get some photos,that would be great.
I mean, in the day and agewhere we all have cell phones,
it's helpful to do for everybody.
But of course you've got to bepolite and get consent to take

(33:28):
anybody's photos and you don'twant to delay getting care just
for the sake of a photo.
So manage that as best you can.
And again, when things calm downand you're able to do so, if
you can figure out who thewitnesses were, who was around,
and then, as time goes on, ifthe ring cameras or something

(33:49):
else right to show what hadhappened.
Again, that's later down theroad, not the immediate pressing
concern.
And again, if you are the onewho owned the dog who bit, get
that rabies vaccinationcertificate ready to go, so that
you are and I wouldn't evennecessarily wait for animal
control to come right Make surethat that person knows yes, the

(34:12):
dog's vaccinated you're, youknow you're good.
That is again like top of mymind with those cases.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
And what about trainers on scene?
Let's say that you're a trainerand this happens on your watch.
Should they be getting otheradditional records or how should
they be handling it, Becauseit's really there?
I guess we could say they're incare, custody and control of
the dog at the time, especiallyif they're handling the dog
during the session, and maybe wecan even break that out as
another question too because,I'm sure traders are wondering

(34:41):
well, what if I'm handling thedog, the dog bites somebody?
or if the client's handling thedog, the dog bites somebody, or
I'm giving the direction of thesession, like, am I still in
care, custody and control?
So first start with what to doif the dog bites, like what
should the trainer do above andbeyond what a guardian would do?
And then some of the otheraspects I was just talking about
.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
Right, I mean certainly run through what I had
just said.
I mean that would applyobviously to the trainer as well
.
And then if you have insurance,you know you have to give
notice of a claim.
It may not be that you have toreport it immediately.
It may be something that youcan work out.
But as soon as you get a letterfrom an attorney saying hey,

(35:20):
I'm coming in, then obviouslyyou want to send that along to
your insurance company rightaway.
It could be something thatwon't get to that point of a
lawsuit.
You can hope for that.
But whether, in that immediatemoment when the bite happens
again, do all the emergencystuff I went over but also keep
records of everything, everytext, every email, every photo

(35:42):
on your phone, everything incase right, because you might
get a letter two years down theroad and you just want to start
maintaining a file now and don'tdestroy anything.
Make sure if there are anyemployees around.
If an employee got bit, itmight be a worker's comp
situation.
So it's really a matter ofkeeping your head on straight,

(36:05):
doing those emergency thingsthat we talked about with an
owner and then records, likejust making sure that you have
good records, that you have in afile that you maintain just in
case, and then, as soon as itseems like there's going to be a
lawsuit because you get anotice from the person bit, or
especially from their attorneythen get your insurance company

(36:27):
involved yeah, because they cansubpoena all of your notes, all
of your emails, all of yourtexts right and right I'm
assuming it looks bad.
If you suddenly be like well, Ideleted all of that and they're
gonna be exactly why and youright, and I tell people too,
like you should, you should have, even, you know, a small
trainer.
You should have a policy aboutwhen you're going to destroy

(36:48):
documents In this day and age.
You know people purge stuff andthat's fine if you're being
consistent, right?
So Interesting, yeah.
And the last thing you want todo is have a five year retention
or seven year retention policy,and this is the one time you
destroyed things in a year, andthen, after that year, you get a
notice, and then people arelooking at you like it could
have just been a mistake, right,but it doesn't look good.

(37:10):
It doesn't look good.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, yeah, that totally makes sense.
Now, what about the care,custody and control?
How does that work If, let'ssay, I'm at the park and I'm
with Mrs Jones and I'm like, mrsJones, let's work over here,
and Mrs Jones is handling theleash, but I'm saying, you know,
let's work around.
These children are doingsomething really stupid.
So what happens in those cases?

Speaker 2 (37:34):
If the owner still has the leash but you're giving
directions that are not smart,right?
You don't have the rightequipment on the dog.
You know you have the dog on aform of leash that is not
physical.
Let's say, you know, andthere's children right there
with a dog, you know isproblematic.
You may have failed to givesufficient instructions and if

(37:57):
that person's relying on you,you may be negligent along with
the owner.
You may be coming into thelawsuit with that owner because
they were relying on you as anexpert and you were being
negligent.
Same going with if you're theone holding the leash, right.
If you're holding the leash,even more so, you have custody
of the animal and you may beliable if you don't have the

(38:20):
right equipment or you, you know, getting too close to the
children.
Oh, the dog is ready to go upto this four-year-old right, and
so, yes, you can be negligentjust as much as the owner in
certain situations.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
From my understanding too, of all the dog bite cases
that I hear about, or trainerstalking about, or even my
clients in their previouslawsuits.
It's for attorneys and the onesprosecuting or like going after
these cases from theplaintiff's side side it seems
like a slam dunk most of thetime, like the dog bites,
whether you're the trainerholding the leash, the client's

(38:53):
holding leash, the dog's onproperty, like it's.
If the dog bites a lot of timesit's like all right, the
insurance companies were likeyou know what, here you go,
here's your check.
Does that seem like the casethese days?

Speaker 2 (39:05):
unless, like we were talking about, you have a ring
video of the guy you know pokinga rod at the dog or something
like that and that's the thepolicy decision right of these
states that have gone to thestrict liability form of civil
liability instead of the onefree bite.
Stuff happens and, um, thereare times when it you know, an
insurance company may feel likethey want to fight because they

(39:27):
have a decent argument that youwere showing your reasonable
duty of care and it was justsomething completely.
Maybe the leash broke right,you had all the right equipment
and something broke right.
So maybe it's the fault of theleash manufacturer, not you.
But for the most part, I thinkmost fights when there is

(39:49):
sufficient injury.
You know most insurancecompanies are going to want to
get rid of those cases, just notfight them, especially strict
liability situation.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
So let's talk about what we can do to protect
ourselves.
So we can probably break thisup into two things like the
legal layers of protections,like insurance, things like that
, but also exercising.
We're talking about diligence.
Due diligence like saying, hey,I'm doing my job to advocate
for my dog as well as protectthe general public, whether I
know there's a bite history ornot.
So we could do things likeleash and a muzzle, but what are

(40:21):
some other things that maybewe're not thinking about?
Or other ways that would say,okay, the dog did bite somebody,
but we're able to say we reallydid our diligence here, or
something that additional layersof protection, that a person or
a trainer can do.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
Yeah.
So I back way up because a lotof people just can't sleep at
night and are worried about theliability and I tell people, if
you have three things in place,can you get sued?
Of course you can always getsued.
There's the clerk is at thecourt taking the paperwork.
They're not going to go, oh,this doesn't have any merit,
they're just going to take itand file it right.
So the three things that youmust have first off in my mind

(41:00):
are a separate entity, an LLC orcorporation or something, so
that your personal assets areprotected.
Number two insurance With a goodinsurance company who knows our
industry.
There are at least a couple ofthem out there who are very well
known and understand ourindustry and a lot of times you

(41:20):
want that because personalproperty can be another dog and
it can get written out of somegeneral liability policies so
that if your dog bites anotherdog, the personal property got
injured, it's not covered versusthe ones who know our industry
and they will have vet expensesand everything written in.
And then the third thing is agood contract.

(41:42):
Make sure that you have a goodcontract that says you know,
writes out those limitations ofliability and educates the
client about what theirobligations are for their dog,
that they're going to be on thehook and if somebody sues you,
that they're going to cover you.
Right, so your insurance iscovering you and the contract is

(42:02):
covering you.
That puts, I think, a big onuson you to do the things you were
talking about, mike about.
Then you're being responsible,right.
So you know the practical thingsand then the policy things.
Make sure that you have thoughtthrough your policies, not only
your document destruction,right, but your emergency policy

(42:22):
.
I like to see it written out,exactly what we talked about
First I'm going to make sure thedog is taken care of, then I'm
going to make sure the human orthe dog who got bit is taken
care of, and then I'm going tosee if I can take photos, if
it's proper to do so, and thenyou know, just walk a written
policy through, because in theheat of the moment you just you
know your brain goes blank.

(42:42):
It just it happens.
We're human.
No-transcript, if that's theone problem that you've got.

(43:16):
So again, you don't always haveto write out your policies, but
sometimes it helps.
And if you're doing aggressioncases on a routine basis, if
you're doing aggression cases ona routine basis.
I would have an equipmentpolicy written out and be
consistent with it.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
It's better to do too much right Then, then not
enough 100% agree on that too,because I think some of the
trainers listening in right noware probably like well, what if
Mrs Jones is like you know what,I don't think I need the muzzle
anymore, right?
So they're out with a dog witha bite history, maybe have that
double leash, but they don'thave the muzzle on and we're not

(43:53):
enforcing that with the client.
It's like, hey, mrs Jones, whenwe're out here and I'm
directing the traffic of thissession, meaning I'm saying all
right, we're going to go to thepark and your dog's not muzzled,
it puts you at risk, right?
Because, if all of your otherclients were like yeah, we're
muzzled always out at the parkwith a dog with a bite history.
That is something that's, Iknow, difficult for some
trainers because they're like oh, no clients aren't going to

(44:19):
listen and they kind of letthings slide.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
But that puts you at risk, right, or find a fence to
it, right, like, have it in yourpolicy.
We'll be muzzled.
And once we get to a certainnumber of lessons, no muzzle is
if we're in an enclosed, fencedarea that doesn't let the public
in, or something like that.
Right, just make yourself thinkthrough, just like the layers
of training that you're doingfor any dog, as you're, you know
, building in duration ordistance or distraction, right,

(44:42):
the same thing.
You're building in slowly andholding yourself to it, and it's
.
You're setting an example forthe client too, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, Do you want to plug any resources for any of
the three layers of protectionyou've mentioned?
So we can.
Any insurance companies?
You have separate entities likeLLCs.
Are there any services yourecommend out there?
And then attorneys for, like,reviewing contracts?

Speaker 2 (45:04):
Yeah.
So for the LLC corporationthing, I am not a fan of the
things like LegalZoom.
I find them to be too generic.
I think going to your state baror your local bar and asking
for some small businessattorneys is the way to go.
I really do.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
It gives me heartburn when I see some of the things
that I've seen come out of someof the apps I'm like, oh, I just
get heartburn.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
And then for insurance, the two big ones I
can think of are the Hartfordand the Business Insurers the
Carolinas.
They know our industry reallywell.
They have some great productsout there.
They have great people to pickup the phone and say, hey, I
have a facility or I don't, or Ihave this or I have that, and
just making sure that you havethe right combination of
protection, I don't think youcould beat one of the two of

(45:54):
those.
And then for attorneys, forcontracts, I think again like
going to your small business,your local bar or your state bar
for small business attorneys.
If they have an animal lawsection two, all the better.
A friend of mine, Adam Karp inWashington State, who has been
practicing animal law for acouple decades now and who's

(46:15):
wonderful and has a greatattorney referral source on his
website.
So that's often where I sendfolks looking for animal law
attorneys.
That's often where I send folksto take a look.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Perfect, perfect.
Now we're talking about thetrainer or professional side.
What if you're a homeowner andyou've got a dog that's bitten
already?
Homeowner's insurance issettled and now you're shopping
around for another one, orsometimes the clients get
dropped from that.
What are some additional thingsthey can do Because they can't
say well, I'm going to form anLLC just because I have a dog.
What are steps that they cantake to ensure that they're

(46:49):
doing their best to protectthemselves and their dog?

Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah, again, I think it's when you look at the
dangerous dog laws and thethings that they put into place.
Even if your dog didn't getdeemed dangerous, there are just
some smart things to do.
Right, if you have a yard, toenclose it in a way that people
can't get their fingers in thereyou were mentioning too cement
or make sure the dog can't digunder.

(47:14):
If your dog is a digger, climbover, write the rulers and
different things you might seeon the top of the fence to keep
the dog from going over.
Muzzle is the biggest thing andI tell people all the time
don't be afraid of the muzzle,because it protects you.
If you're out walking your dogand your dog is on a muzzle, and
if someone crosses the street,great, you're just giving your

(47:36):
dog space, right, it's just thesmart thing.
And then, like the trainers, wewere talking about the double
leash system if you're walkingyour dog and I do think what
breaks a lot of people's heartsis the dangerous dog who has
like very little life right, youwant to find a way to make sure
you're enriching that dog.
Do nose work in your backyard,do you know?

(47:57):
Do something every day withyour dog to make sure they still
have a life, because you don'tjust want to stick them in a
crate all day just to have them.
It's not fair to them either.
So again, like you know,working with somebody with
training, enrichment, behaviormodification and being smart
about that stuff and humane.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yeah, it's something we talk about all the time on
the show and it's the lack ofenrichment that comes from, you
know, lack of just basic needsbeing met when the dog is
severely contained because ofthese restrictions or concern
about dog bites.
And so it's a fine balancereally finding, like you know,
safety and making sure the dogdoesn't bite anybody, as well as
ensuring that dog lives a goodquality of life, right.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
Yeah, and good fences too.
I think one thing fences thatself-close or a double fencing
system I've seen you know, justsimple, simple management things
.
I feel like some of the besttrainers I know are the ones who
are very creative about goodmanagement stipulations that

(49:12):
need to be placed.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
So how often do you see that and how much does an
impact really make in terms ofwhat the courts will say Okay,
you did the training well.
Or do they have like a checkboxor some way of evaluating Did
this work and now the dogdoesn't need this, or now the
dog doesn't have that dangerousdog designation?

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yeah, I think it's court by court and judge by
judge how much they want to putstock in that.
Some judges won't get into that, they just want to hear about
the incident right.
When I prepare a case, adangerous dog case, I like to
think of three buckets.
I think of the dog and I wantto know everything about that
dog and whether they've had anyissues before, what their
specific triggers are.

(49:47):
Were those triggers involved inthis case?
Right.
Then I want to know about theowner.
Is this somebody who wasotherwise really responsible?
Did they have other dogs andtheir dogs were fine?
Or are they somebody who'sletting their dog run off leash
all the time?
You know all that up to date onthe vaccines and licenses and
registrations and all that stuff.
So the owner themselves and howcompliant or not they might be.

(50:08):
And then the facts of the caseright.
Was there a provocation?
Was there this, was there that?
What was in play?
I present all three of those andI like to have the dog
evaluated, not only for thecircumstances that were involved
in the case, but also goingforward having the owner work

(50:28):
with the dog, if they have themeans to do that, as, again, a
way of showing responsibility,mitigating and getting a handle
on the owner and the dog,getting to know each other a
little better and trust eachother a little more and develop
that relationship better.
I think that's crucial and somecourts are really open to
hearing about that.

(50:49):
And again, what I love aboutour deferred adjudication is
when I have a case like that, Ican build that as part of a
package to recommend to thecourt like this really should be
a deferred adjudication andwe're going to a veterinary
behaviorist and the dog is onmedication now and let's have a
review in six months and you cansee the progress.
You can really, if you have asympathetic judge, you can

(51:14):
really get creative and do somereally good stuff.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
I love that because there's so many positives that
can come out of that.
Of course, the relationshipbuilding.
You mentioned the training thatcan happen, the lifting of
certain designations that maynot be appropriate for the dog,
so it's really great to hearthat that's in place because
it's not like that of course inall of the jurisdictions.
So you mentioned provocation aswell.
So that is a very subjectiveword, depending on who's arguing

(51:41):
the case right, and I've seenthat play out in some of the
cases I've worked, where thelevel of provocation is really
who's describing it, becauseit's really the dog's point of
view and as experts we come inand sometimes have to interpret
that.
So can you just unpack thatword a little bit and give a
couple descriptions of what itlooks like?

Speaker 2 (52:01):
Sure, and it's a really interesting point, we do
have provocation as a defense inVirginia, but it doesn't say
from whose perspective.
And I've had judges in Virginiasay well, the person has to
intend to provoke, and I think Iagree with you, Mike I think
that's the wrong analysis.
There's a great Illinois casethat breaks down provocation and

(52:23):
talks about it's from thestandpoint of the dog.
It's a lot like self-defensewith with a human.
You know, based on thecircumstances that you're put in
, are you having a reasonablereaction to what's happening and
is your reaction a reasonableamount of force?
And, as we know with dogs, youknow some dogs react to things

(52:44):
that a, that a quote unquotereasonable dog wouldn't
necessarily react to and willhave a an amount of force or
amount of reaction that isreasonable or unreasonable,
right.
So, and I think having atrainer to explain that and I've
done that, I've had an expertto explain hovering over a dog
or putting your hand over a dogcan be provoking and and you've

(53:10):
got to look at it from the dog'sperspective.
So if you're lucky enough to beIllinois, where you already
have a case on point, that'sgreat.
When you're in Virginia youhave to be prepared to argue
that it should be from thestandpoint of the dog, not
whether the person intended toprovoke or not, Because the
person may not have really doneanything wrong but could
nonetheless be provoking to thedog and be prepared to have an

(53:33):
expert who can talk about that.
And you have to be prepared.
For even if it was provokingfrom the dog standpoint, was it
too much right?
Was it was too much of areaction?
Based on the totality of thecircumstances the court could

(53:55):
still say the dog's notdangerous and not even do the
deferred adjudication.
I had a very interesting casewhere a girl waltzed into
somebody's house singing andflailing her arms around and a
dog was pretty sensitiveflailing her arms around and a
dog was pretty sensitive.
I mean this dog.
This dog would have reactedbeyond what most dogs would do

(54:16):
and did and fit, fortunately notvery bad.
And the court said look, it'snot quite trespass, it's not
quite provocation, but based onthe totality I'm not going to
find this dog dangerous, Like itwas behavior by the human that
just wasn't quite right on thedog's turf.
So there's a lot to unpack andit's an interesting defense with

(54:37):
provocation, both thatstandpoint of what might provoke
a dog and, if provoked, what'sa reasonable reaction?
To be able to be ready, in thatcase, to describe to the court.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's great you broke that down really
well, because I know it's atough one to you know, really
explain, because it really doesmatter what happens in a case.
So, to wrap things up here, canyou think of a case that really
ties together?
Because you're obviously askilled lawyer, you've got that
legal side, but also you loveanimals and you have the dog

(55:09):
trainer side.
So can you think of a case or asituation where it ties both of
those worlds together nicely?

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Yeah, I had a case that I consider to be the most
rewarding case that I worked on.
It wasn't a huge case, it wasjust a general district court
case, but I was representing adog owner who got her dog from a
local pet shop and this littleYorkie poo, tiny little mini
thing, I mean just should nothave been bred.

(55:39):
Frankly, you know, definitelyfrom God only knows where.
Some puppy mill got broughtinto Virginia and this pet shop
was having problem after problemafter problem and right as we
were suing, animal control wentin and seized all of the animals
and the place got shot down andI brought in a veterinarian who
was able to say you know, thatanimal just never had a chance.

(56:03):
The little puppy got sick,upper respiratory stuff, every
antibiotic they tried.
The strain was immune to allthese antibiotics because they
had been pumped with antibioticsfor all the crap going through
that pet shop.
I mean it was really tragic andthe poor lady did everything
she could do to try to save herdog and the dog succumbed
anyways.

(56:26):
Money we got a nice judgment forfraud, misrepresentation,
virginia Consumer Protection Actviolations.
It was very vindicating.
I mean a judgment on a piece ofpaper that we never got money
for ultimately, but attorney'sfees, which is very rare.
But the place got shot down andall of the animals that were in

(56:47):
there, that were suffering fromsimilar maladies, made it to
the shelter and foster care andultimately into good homes.
So that felt good.
One other thing I can't helpbut plug because I'm here in
Virginia.
If you remember the EnvigoBeagles, the 4,000 Envigo
Beagles in a breeding facilitythat got shot down, also here in

(57:08):
Virginia, with litigation andlegislation and all this stuff,
and that that brought, likeevery animal welfare, every
animal protection group inVirginia together to get those
4,000 beetles out.
It was really special, amazing,really special.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
Amazing.
Well, thank you for the workyou do on both sides of the coin
for the animal industry.
And so where can people findyou Like?
I plugged the APDT at thebeginning when going through
your bio, but tell us more aboutwhat the APDT is up to, as well
as what you're up to next.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Yeah, so you can find me at mindsorlawcom.
That's my website.
You can find my contactinformation there.
I do a lot of labor law.
Now Virginia is lettinglocalities dip into collective
bargaining.
So don't fear, if you get on mywebsite and you see all kinds
of labor law.
Now Virginia is lettinglocalities dip into collective
bargaining.
So don't fear, if you get on mywebsite and you see all kinds
of labor law stuff, you canstill reach out to me for animal
law stuff and I'm happy to helpand I still do help plenty of

(58:01):
trainers and APDT.
Of course you can find moreabout me there.
I'm the immediate past chair.
So I am finally winding my waythrough my board service.
It's been a great ride.
The biggest plug I can give isa PDT conference in November
November 5th through the 7th ofthis year right in my backyard,

(58:25):
richmond, virginia.
Richmond is an amazing littlecity.
There's tons to do, it's agreat conference site and we're
going to have tours, workshopsat the Richmond SPCA.
If you've never been to theRichmond SPCA, it is one of, if
not the best shelter in thecountry, so please come on down
and join us in Virginia.

(58:45):
Really excited to have my lastAPDD conference on the board be
right in my backyard.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Fantastic and I will be there as well.
So if you guys listening inwant to come see both of us,
come down and hang out at theAPDT conference.
Heidi, thank you so much.
This has been amazing, veryinformative, and I hope to see
you again here on the future.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Sounds great.
Thanks for having me, mike.
To see you again here on thefuture.
Sounds great.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Mike, it was wonderful talking to Heidi about
the often overlooked legal sideof working and living with dogs
.
Her unique perspective as bothan attorney and a trainer offer
valuable insights into how wecan better protect ourselves,
our clients and the dogs in ourcare.
Whether you're a professionalor a dog guardian, understanding
your legal responsibilities isa crucial part of ensuring

(59:34):
safety and building trust.
And if you're ready to godeeper into understanding and
helping dogs with aggression,visit aggressivedogcom.
Whether you're a professionalor a dedicated dog guardian,
you'll find everything from theAggression in Dogs Master Course
, which is the mostcomprehensive program of its
kind, to expert-led webinars,informative articles and the

(59:54):
Aggression and Dogs Conferencehappening from September 26th
through 28th 2025 in Charlotte,North Carolina, with both
in-person and virtual options.
And don't forget to check outour Help for Dogs with
Aggression bonus episodes, whichare solo shows where I walk you
through real world strategiesfor issues like resource
guarding, fear-based aggression,territorial behavior and more.

(01:00:16):
Just hit, subscribe or head tothe show notes for more info.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.
Bye.