June 16, 2025 • 36 mins
Have you ever wondered what happens when scientific inquiry meets the paranormal? Step back to Victorian England where one of history's most meticulously documented hauntings unfolded in a seemingly ordinary home.
The Cheltenham Ghost case stands apart from typical ghost stories—not because of terror or violence, but due to the extraordinary level of documentation by a brilliant 19-year-old woman named Rosina Despard. When her family moved into Garden Reach in 1882, they encountered more than just a beautiful home. Mysterious footsteps echoed through empty hallways before a silent woman dressed in widow's black began appearing throughout the house, following the same paths night after night, even attempting to take ghostly naps on beds.
Join us as we explore this fascinating case where the veil between worlds seemed to thin, allowing a persistent visitor to continue her silent routine long after death. Listen now and discover why belief isn't always about proof, but about that unmistakable feeling when the air shifts and you simply know you're not alone.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rosa once saw the ghost enter a room and I found
this funny and enter a room andlie down on a bed Like she was
like literally just trying totake a nap in the middle of
eternity, and I read the ghost.
Yeah, like the ghost like laydown in the bed, like she was
(00:21):
trying to take a nap and and Ithought you know, like same
honestly relatable just we getit.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We get it, man.
I've been haunting all day, man.
My little, my little wisps istired like man.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Before we begin today's episode, we would like
to share a quick disclaimer.
The views, opinions andstatements expressed by the
hosts and guests on this podcastare their own personal views
and are provided in their owncapacity.
All content is editorial,opinion-based and intended for
entertainment purposes only.
(01:09):
Listener discretion is advised.
Welcome back to the BlackCarton Club, and on this episode
we're going to tug at thethreads of the eerie.
Today I have a story thatdelves into the paranormal, and
to help me, along with thisrather quaint tale, is my
co-host, kyle, and you, ofcourse, our listeners, to lean
(01:31):
in and hear a story where theveil between worlds thins.
So, kyle, first, how are youdoing?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
well, ask me that like midway, and then at the end
of this one and see how thatgoes.
But for right now, we chilling.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Okay, are you ready for ghosts?
And like, where do you stand onthe paranormal?
Is this a world that you'revery familiar with?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
usually if they're below me, I try to stand on
their heads to kind of keep themdown.
That's usually my where I standwith them.
Um, I like ghost movies like 13ghosts, casper, um shit like
that.
I'm all for that.
Um, the band goes chef, kiss,love them, yeah, absolutely, but
(02:19):
like but on a kind of aboutlike I would I like to think
when it comes to I don't want tosay spooky stuff, because I
freaking love spooky stuff, butcertain things I'm open to.
The things that are hard toexplain or difficult to explain,
(02:39):
I like to think.
I have an open mind, but veryfew things.
Am I 100% sold on or 100% notsold on?
So, like I said, ghosts mostlikely, but I haven't seen
enough damning evidence to belike absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Okay, so you've never like gone on a ghost hunt, done
any paranormal investigations,never experienced anything weird
I mean Closest thing I've doneto a ghost hunt done any
paranormal investigations neverexperienced anything weird, I
mean closest thing I've done toa ghost hunt.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Oh, I just experienced plenty of weirds,
but we ain't talking about that.
Closest thing I've done to aghost hunt was, uh, I think I
went to three stores to gettheir album prequel, like, so I
hunted for one of their seats.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
That's the closest thing I have to a ghost hunt
okay fucking sold out everywhere, man and I know we've talked
briefly about, like, paranormalshows.
You've you've seen a few, butyou know they're highly
dramatized.
It's, it's you know it's hardto believe some of the things.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, yeah, so okay, yeah the yeah, the guy who says
that, oh, there's definitely aghost here because it's cold in
alaska in in January with thewindows open at night Like get
fucked, dude, come on, no shit,it's cold.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, and the sad thing is, I think a lot of those
shows they both did a lot ofgood bringing the paranormal
into like everyday conversation.
They also did a lot of damagebecause some there are some
shows and I'm going to not saythe shows, but some of them have
(04:13):
been proven to like fake stuffand, um like one even went down
to the?
Um haunted prison that's uh inmoundsville, west virginia, and
they are never allowed to comeback because they literally went
and spray painted like shadowson walls and defaced the
(04:34):
property just um for for theshow.
(04:55):
Yeah, yeah they're neverallowed back.
Oh, dick move, dick move and Ilove it I love it so much and
I'm missing a scared gene Like Ijust don't get scared at stuff
like this, so it's a fascinatingtopic.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
You're probably more curious.
I would say it sparks yourcuriosity more than instills
fear.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yes, which is pretty dope.
I get that.
I understand that In kind of aweird effed up way.
I'm like that with with likegore in movies.
I kind of when I watched likelike gory, you know monster
movies or you know slasherflicks and crap like that.
I'm watching it more of like,oh, that's very good makeup, or
(05:39):
oh, that's like way overdone.
Everyone is like throwing upand like running for the hills
or whatever, and I'm like, hmm,interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, like how did they do that?
How'd they do that practicaleffect?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, yeah, I get you Corn syrup, same thing they use
in Carrie.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah and Cujo, all right.
So today I'm going to take youback to Victorian England and
we're going to unravel achilling yet strangely elegant
tale of one of England's mostfamous hauntings and one of the
first, most well-documentedcases in England's history.
(06:17):
So I know like you're a historybuff, so I thought this was
like the perfect case for you tohear, because it has a lot of,
like you know, history stuff init and it's just really it's a
compelling story.
So it sounds like it's QueenElizabeth's coronation, so yeah,
(06:37):
so this is a story of theCheltenham ghost is a story of
the cheltenham ghost and if Idid not, pronounce that right.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
People in the uk, please don't come for my head.
Well, I'm pretty sure that.
Well, first off, if you'remaking a like guillotine joke,
that was the french one.
Two, uh, I'm gonna be worriedabout the people in the uk.
I'd be worried about the ghostyou just defended.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, exactly.
So all right, Picture it.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Cheltenham, england, 1882.
Picture this Sicily 1923.
I was waiting for a GoldenGirls there Proceed.
Picture this Sicily 1935.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Shit All right.
So we have a well-to-do family,the Despards, and they move
into a house called Garden Reachon Pitville Circus Road.
It's a lovely home, plenty ofrooms, lots of sunlight and
apparently like one resident whorefused to move on.
So the house is a square.
(07:49):
It's a very unassumingstructure.
It was built around 1860 onland that used to be a market
garden, so hence the name GardenReach, and according to all
reports it was a house that wasin good repair no rats, no owls,
just a simple haunting.
You know, the usual stuff.
(08:11):
Yeah, simple, simple stuff, yeah.
So I want to get into a littlebit of the history of the house
because, depending on who youtalk to, it either plays a role
into what happened or it doesnot.
But I'm still going to gothrough it and I'm going to say
a name.
I'm going to say thisgentleman's name one time I'll
(08:35):
let you get your giggles out,and then I'm not going to say
the last name again.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Okay, oh, God, I'm so excited right now.
Hold on, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Okay, so it was first owned by Henry Swinho.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
That's not as bad as it.
That's a great name but it'snot I was waiting for, like
Gigglecock or something likethat, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
That's what I was waiting for.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I'm not sure if it's Swineho or Swinho.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Swineho.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
We're going with swine home yeah, so anyway,
henry was a solicitor fromcalcutta and his first wife,
elizabeth, passed away.
While they lived in this home,and henry never recovered from
his first wife's death, he begandrinking and he eventually
(09:26):
remarried a woman named ImogenHutchins, and let's just say,
things did not get any better.
They fought Like they fought alot.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So they fought about her drinking.
They fought about his drinkingdrinking.
They fought about theupbringing of the children.
They even fought about jewelryfrom his first wife because,
like, really nothing says happymarriage, like arguing over
heirlooms and hiding sapphiresunder floorboards, which that's
(10:02):
exactly what he did.
Like he took all of herpossessions and hid them under
the floorboards, which that'sexactly what he did.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Like he took all of her possessions and hid them
under the floorboards.
Damn.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Okay, yeah.
First off.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Add song title.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So eventually Henry and Imogen separated in 1876.
Interestingly, henry would diea few months later in that very
house, in a small front sittingroom, of dipsomania and
(10:36):
intervening sub gastritis whichis a fancy way of saying
alcoholism and stomach issues.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Jesus, like, like, yeah, you know what?
Why can't you just say thatJesus?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So between when Henry was in the house and the desk
bards moved into the house therewas some ownership between for
short periods of time, like itwould sit empty for a while.
People would live there, subletit for a while in any way.
In April of 1882, captainDespard and his large family
(11:15):
seven children moved in.
Just a footnote, I'm going totalk about a document later on
and in this document they referto this family as the Mortons.
So in some of the documentsthey're referred to as the
Morton family but the real nameis Despard, just to clear that
(11:36):
up.
Among the seven children was19-year-old Rosina and they
called her Rosa and she becamethe primary witness to the
strange events that would come.
And you can think of her askind of like this Victorian
version of a paranormal blogger.
And this girl was a very smartcookie.
(11:57):
Just a kind of a footnote onher, rosa would go on to become
the 23rd woman in England'shistory to graduate with a
medical.
I said she's a very smartcookie and she really looked at
(12:20):
all of these events from like avery investigative and
scientific-ish lens right fromthe very beginning, just because
of who she was as a person.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So, as all good things start out, it all began
with footsteps.
You know, it's like the classicopening of any decent haunting
footsteps in empty hallways,doors opening and closing, no
one there.
But things escalated whenmembers of the family and guests
(12:54):
and neighbors and dogs beganseeing a woman, and this woman
always wore black, her face wasveiled.
She moved silently anddeliberately, always following
the same path, through thedrawing room down the stairs,
never speaking, never reallyreacting We'll get to that in a
(13:18):
little bit but she just kind oflike glided around the house
like some kind of judgmentalRoomba.
And so the first sightings ofthis woman in black came in June
.
Immediately, rosa started thisvery detailed journal and so she
(13:41):
writes.
On opening the door, I saw noone.
But on going a few steps alongthe passage, I saw the figure of
a tall lady dressed in blackstanding at the head of the
stairs, dressed in blackstanding at the head of the
stairs.
So she followed the figure, buther candle burned out and she
zoomed it back to her room.
(14:02):
She was unsure of what she hadactually had witnessed.
Um, and you know I will say inher defense nothing will help
you sleep like seeing avictorian ghost in the stairs
and then losing your only sourceof light.
So, yeah, right.
So over the next two years shesaw this woman multiple times
(14:27):
and it was always the same.
So Rosa wrote this description atall lady dressed in black of
soft woolen material.
The face was hidden in ahandkerchief, held in the right
hand, a widow's cuff was visibleon both wrists.
The whole impression was thatof a lady in widow's weeds.
(14:47):
Do you know what widow's weedsare?
No, okay, I didn't think so.
This was new for me too, so Ilooked it up.
The term widow's weeds refersto black clothing traditionally
worn by widows in mourning,particularly in the Victorian
era.
The garments were part of astrict etiquette of mourning
(15:09):
that dictated both behavior andappearance following the death
of a husband.
The term weeds itself comesfrom the old English word wade,
meaning garment or clothing, andhas been used since the late
1500s to describe these mourningattire.
So now you've learned something.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
And knowing is half the battle.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Right, I just thought it was interesting.
I've never heard the termwidow's weeds before yeah, no, I
was the I.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I could have swore I was assuming it was gonna be
like I don't know, some type oflike actual, like weed, like
from like in like a swamp area,like a marshy area you know what
I'm talking about.
Like all this kind of just likethose are like widow's weeds
and so she, I'm picturing likethis you said that I'm picturing
this kind of like monstrous,looking like water hag or
(16:02):
something like that.
I'm like oh yeah, that'sterrifying and it's like no,
it's just black clothes.
I was like, oh, so literallylike any yeah, so like any kid
like between the ages of like 14and like 17 that had one
argument with their parents, gotit.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, exactly so.
Rosa, you know we've talkedabout she was very sharp and
observant and she began keepingdetailed notes.
And when I say detailed,detailed, she detailed, like
when they saw the ghost, whatshe was wearing, how she moved,
who witnessed it, and in total,over 20 people saw this ghost
over the years and theirdescriptions were eerily
(16:42):
consistent.
I just wanted to walk youthrough a couple of the
encounters that happened, justto kind of give you a sense of
what everyone was dealing withwith this woman in black, rosa
once saw the ghost enter a roomand I found this funny and enter
(17:03):
a room and lie down on a bedLike she was like literally just
trying to take a nap in themiddle of eternity, and I read
that yeah, like the ghost likelay down in the bed like she was
trying to take a nap, and and Ithought you, yeah, like the
ghost like laid down in the bedlike she was trying to take a
nap, and I thought you know,like same honestly relatable.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
We get it.
We get it, man.
I've been haunting all day, man.
My little wisps is tired Likeman.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah.
So another time a guest chasedthe ghost down the stairs,
thinking it was a real person,but she vanished before reaching
the door, which I also gottickled at, because it was
literally like me, an introvertat a party.
Yeah, a vanish very quickly.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Oh yeah, Smoke bomb.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah, wasn't she here .
Yeah, she gone.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Oh, she gone.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
So one of her younger brothers and his friend saw
this woman crying inside thedrawing room window and they ran
inside.
But then the room was empty.
And then on one occasion, Rosafinally spoke to the ghost.
Now, this is, this is wild,Rosa wrote in her notes.
She came past me and walked tothe sofa and stood there.
(18:23):
So I went up to her and askedher if I could help her.
She moved and I thought she wasgoing to speak, but she only
gave a slight gasp and movedtowards the door.
She seemed as if she were quiteunable to speak.
So I found that veryinteresting.
That, you know, because thereare these types of hauntings
(18:49):
where the entity is just on thisloop, it's like they left an
impression and it's just thisthing that loops back and forth,
back and forth, back and forth.
But what I found interestinghere is that there was a little
bit of good interaction there.
She went up to the ghost, shespoke, the ghost kind of
(19:09):
acknowledged her and it was likeshe was maybe trying to speak
or she was probably spookedherself.
Like you know, it's just one ofthose things where, you know,
the question is, the veil getsso thin.
Was this, was this like twodimensions, two different
dimensions, two different timeperiods passing each other.
(19:31):
You know can we?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
can we backpedal it for a second there?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Like had the, had the conversation with it.
You said like, maybe she wereyou referring to, like maybe the
ghost was like spooked as well,like she was spooked by her
okay.
So question maybe you'd probablyknow it's better than these,
but like, is it a thing?
Or like kind of, how funnywould it be if, like okay, you
know how?
Like we see ghosts and they'reat the paranormal from another
(19:56):
something, whatever.
Do you think ghosts get spookedwhen they see humans?
What the fuck are you doinghere, man?
Like you know what I mean.
Like she's just doing herVictorian shit.
She's just going to whatever itis and then she just sees, like
you know, hank from HR, whatthe fuck like?
What is that burrito?
What the fuck's a burrito?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
you know I I often think about the movie.
Oh yeah, that's a good one, youknow where you have in that
movie where the living areliterally crossing paths with
the departed.
And like you're seeing, theexperience of the ghosts from
(20:38):
their perspective you know, okayso.
I think, yeah, if you buy intothe theory that sometimes
parallel time periods orparallel universes or something
between the space and time kindof thins and overlaps, kind of
(21:01):
thins and overlaps, then yeah, Ithink it is quite possible that
ghosts can sometimes be asoff-put by quote-unquote the
living than we are of them too.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Oh, I'm off-put by the living too.
Don't worry ghosts.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I get it.
Yeah, I'm really off-put by theliving.
I get it.
I absolutely get it.
So to get back to the story, bymid-1894, the sightings of this
woman really peaked.
Rosa wrote that I saw thefigure come in at the open door,
cross the room, take up aposition close behind the couch
(21:40):
where I was, and I wasastonished that no one else in
the room saw her, as she was sovery distinct to me.
So it was around that timewhere others started seeing her
too, and when I say others likeneighbors and servants.
So one of the servants reportedhearing soft, slow footsteps,
(22:03):
sometimes knocks, sometimesbumps, and a cook went on record
and said I've heard thefootsteps before.
I've seen the figure on thestairs one night when going down
to the kitchen.
And she goes on to give adescription, and the description
is identical to what Rosa wrotein her journal.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Oh damn.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
And then the neighbors.
So there was one neighborreported seeing a woman in black
weeping in their orchard and heeven sent his son to check on
the family.
Of course no one was in theorchard.
And then one evening fourpeople saw the ghost within
minutes of each other one in thedrawing room, one in the garden
(22:48):
and then two on the lawn.
And like it was like, withinjust a span of minutes there was
, like this ghost flash mob,flash mob.
It's kind of fun.
I just find that interestingthat you know, within such a
short time span four people sawthe same woman in all these
(23:09):
different locations.
I just found that veryintriguing.
So you remember earlier I saideven dogs.
I want to go into.
The family had a couple of dogsand they had a large retriever
who stayed mostly in the kitchenor outside, and then they had a
sky terrier who was allowed tokind of move around the house.
(23:33):
And so I want to read kind ofdirectly from Rose's journal on
this one.
So she says a retriever whoslept in the kitchen was on
several occasions found by thecook in a state of terror.
He was also seen more than oncecoming in from the orchard
thoroughly cowed and terrified.
And then with the Sky Terrier,she writes.
(23:58):
A small Sky Terrier whom we hadlater was allowed about the
house.
He usually slept on my bed andundoubtedly heard the footsteps
outside the door.
The dog was then suffering froman attack of rheumatism and very
disinclined to move.
But on hearing the footstepsthat sprang up, sniffed at the
(24:19):
door Twice, I remember seeingthis dog suddenly run up to the
mat at the foot of the stairs inthe hall, wagging its tail and
moving it back and forth in theway dogs do when expecting to be
caressed.
It jumped up fawning as itwould do, as if a person had
been standing there, butsuddenly slunk away with its
tail between its legs andretreated trembling under a sofa
(24:42):
.
We were all strongly under theimpression that it had seen the
figure.
So what do you think about that, about, I mean, you have a dog,
all right, and you you kind ofyou.
You know her as well as youknow yourself.
If you saw your dog like kindof acting that way and there was
(25:07):
literally nothing there, whatwould you think?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Oh that I a million percent would believe my dog
acting weird over someone.
I'm just a million percentgoing to believe her acting
weird, like something is overthere.
That really isn't because weknow that dogs senses and eyes
and whatever can.
Just everything about them isso much more sensitive and so
much they're tuned sodifferently than anyone else's
(25:34):
and so maybe not seeing, butdefinitely sensing and feeling
and noticing something that wedon't.
She doesn't see something, butmaybe she does smell something,
maybe she did hear something ata different frequency.
That or at a different, um,just level like that that we
can't pick up on.
(25:54):
That.
I have million percent believethat she could and like would go
and like investigate this andlook towards that or or whatever
.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
it would be a million percent, I believe her yeah,
yeah, I I found the, the, thestuff about the, the animals, to
be very intriguing because,again, like you said, I think
animals they're very sensitiveto their environment.
They have better vision,hearing, smelling, their senses
(26:24):
are just much more attuned.
So eventually the familycontacted the Society for
Psychical Research, which isbasically a society of psychics,
and these people were like theOG Ghostbusters of the late 19th
century.
They dispatched investigatorsand they took Rosa's notes very
(26:48):
seriously and they interviewedmany of the witnesses and they
even conducted some experimentsin the home.
One of the experiments that wasactually conducted by Rosa
herself was putting stringacross the stairs, and I know
that kind of sounds funny on itssurface, but I want to read.
(27:10):
This is how like detailed shewas in the way she attacked this
case, and that was happening inher own home.
So she she writes I've severaltimes fastened fine strings
across the stairs at variousheights before going to bed, but
after all others have gone totheir rooms.
These were fastened in thefollowing way I made small
(27:33):
pellets of marine glue intowhich I inserted the ends of the
cord, then stuck one pelletlightly against the wall and the
other to the banister.
The string being thus stretchedacross the stairs, they were
knocked down by very slighttouch and yet would not be felt
by anyone passing up or down thestairs and by candlelight,
(27:57):
could not be seen from below.
They were put at variousheights, from the ground, from
six inches to the height of thebanisters, about three feet.
I've twice at least seen thefigure pass through the cords,
leaving them intact.
So I thought, for the timeperiod, that was a pretty
remarkable experiment in the waythat she thought that through.
(28:23):
You know, like I'm gonna putthis string, but I don't want to
trip anybody, but I don't wantpeople to know that it's there
either.
You know, in the in the factthat she knew that this, um, the
string could not be seen by thecandlelight, so if somebody was
walking down the stairs.
They would not know that it wasthere but, they.
(28:43):
If it was a solid figure, itwould pat.
You know they would.
It would take the strings down.
And the fact that she saw thefigure pass through the cords
twice and they were left intact,I think that's pretty
compelling evidence.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I'll give you that yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's something, it's something.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
It's something.
It's something it really islike it's.
It's one of those things Iguess I have to see it Like I
would have to.
I would have to, I'd have to bethere.
It definitely is compelling andit all makes sense, like I said
, that it is a scientificapproach to it.
For sure, it's just.
(29:27):
Yeah, it's like the mummy If Ican see and I can touch it, then
it's real.
That's what it is, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah.
So as a result of all of this,a full 21 page report was put
out in 1892.
That would become one of themost well-documented hauntings
in British history.
The sad thing is no one everreally got to the bottom of who
this woman in black was.
Some say it was the spirit of awoman who once lived in the
(29:57):
house and died under veryunpleasant circumstances.
Some versions say she was awidow stuck in time.
Some versions say it wasconnected to Henry and Imogen.
A lot of people think that itwas her that was stuck at the
house after she passed away.
But I think what makes thisstory so fascinating isn't just
(30:21):
the ghost, it's the tone.
This, this ghost.
She wasn't violent, she didn'tscream or throw books or try to
possess anyone.
She just appeared again andagain like some kind of tragic
rerun on a loop you know thequestion was she lonely, angry,
just exceptionally committed toher routine?
(30:42):
I mean, you know, we don't know.
That's the thing.
But I will say, what I think isalso so special about this case
is this was the first hauntingto be extensively documented
with a pretty scientific-ishlens.
We had multiple witnesses,multiple years, meticulous note
(31:04):
taking.
It wasn't just folklore, it waslike an early form of ghost
journalism.
And Rosa, she never stoppedbelieving, even years later.
She stood by every word in herjournals.
I think sometimes you know,belief isn't about proof, it's
about the feeling you get whenthe air shifts, when the room
(31:26):
kind of gets too quiet, and youjust know that you're not alone.
And I know that, like you,haven't officially ghost hunted
but, I, can tell you being inthose spaces.
There is just a feeling that youget in the air where you
definitely know that you're notalone.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
No, for sure that I can, um, that I can definitely
agree with.
Like, maybe that's I I'm tryingto think of like a specific one
that would make sense.
But I've had that feelingbefore where, like there's some,
there's something, don't knowwhat, I don't know anything, but
(32:10):
I'm definitely not by myselfright now and like, hmm, it's
almost like I can't think ofanything exactly.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
But it's like you can feel, like it's almost like a
static in the air, like the,just the, everything.
It just changes the air, thefrequency, the, the little, um,
micro things that your bodypicks up on that you're not
aware of.
Um, your brain is processingthings all the time that you're
(32:38):
not aware of it.
It just, you just know you'renot alone.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah, yeah, I'll give you that.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
So yeah, just a little footnote on the home.
Interestingly, the home isstill stands today.
So after the desk parts left,it sat vacant for five years
when it was bought and the namewas changed to N Holmes and it
became a boys preparatory school.
It opened its doors in 1898 andstayed in operation for nine
(33:11):
years, and then it sat vacantagain until 1910.
So from 1910 to 1912, it wasused for religious purposes by a
group of nuns, and then from1912 to 1935, it became St
Anne's Nursery College, whichwas an organization for training
(33:32):
nannies.
Okay, and then, in the 1970s, itwas used as accommodations by
the diocese and then, finally,in 1973, the empty house was
bought by a housing associationand converted into flats
apartments for us American rubes, and this is how the house
(33:58):
remains today.
So I mean, this is the uh,that's the end of my cheltenham
ghost story.
So what are you, what are yourkind of final thoughts on this
case?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
boo.
Eh no, no, listen, like I said,there's definitely more
evidence towards that thanfucking.
Oh, it's cold in alaska, um, sothat's a more believable story.
Like I said, it's definitelythe um experiment with that you
talked about, that's helping melean a bit more towards okay,
(34:32):
there's, there's a bit moreweight to this um than others
yeah, um, and I do, I have theuh, I have the whole pdf of the
report that was put out, the 21page report it is.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
It is a pretty fascinating um read because they
they mainly rely on a lot ofher notes, because her notes
were so meticulous andscientific in their own right.
They just kind of took what shehad and basically went and just
validated it.
I can shoot it over to you ifyou ever want to read it.
(35:07):
I think just historically tooit's interesting because, again,
it's one of the mostwell-documented hauntings in
early history.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, that's for sure .
I mean well-documentationdefinitely helped your case.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yes, absolutely so.
Yeah, thanks for joining us forthis paranormal episode.
Just remember, you know, thenext time you hear a creak in
the hallways or see a flickerout of the corner of your eye,
maybe don't run because it'sprobably just somebody reliving
their favorite daily routinefrom the great beyond.
(35:46):
Be sure to follow the BlackCurtain Club and, if you like
this tale, leave us a rating andreview.
It helps us find more curioussouls.
Leave us a rating and review.
It helps us find more curioussouls, and you can find us on
all regular social media outlets, so give us a follow there to
learn what's in store and someextra tidbits of information we
(36:07):
run across.
So until next time, staycurious and stay spooky.
Bye, say bye, kyle.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Peace out Cub Scouts.
Rosa once saw the ghost enter a room and I found
this funny and enter a room andlie down on a bed Like she was
like literally just trying totake a nap in the middle of
eternity, and I read the ghost.
Yeah, like the ghost like laydown in the bed, like she was
(00:21):
trying to take a nap and and Ithought you know, like same
honestly relatable just we getit.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We get it, man.
I've been haunting all day, man.
My little, my little wisps istired like man.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Before we begin today's episode, we would like
to share a quick disclaimer.
The views, opinions andstatements expressed by the
hosts and guests on this podcastare their own personal views
and are provided in their owncapacity.
All content is editorial,opinion-based and intended for
entertainment purposes only.
(01:09):
Listener discretion is advised.
Welcome back to the BlackCarton Club, and on this episode
we're going to tug at thethreads of the eerie.
Today I have a story thatdelves into the paranormal, and
to help me, along with thisrather quaint tale, is my
co-host, kyle, and you, ofcourse, our listeners, to lean
(01:31):
in and hear a story where theveil between worlds thins.
So, kyle, first, how are youdoing?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
well, ask me that like midway, and then at the end
of this one and see how thatgoes.
But for right now, we chilling.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Okay, are you ready for ghosts?
And like, where do you stand onthe paranormal?
Is this a world that you'revery familiar with?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
usually if they're below me, I try to stand on
their heads to kind of keep themdown.
That's usually my where I standwith them.
Um, I like ghost movies like 13ghosts, casper, um shit like
that.
I'm all for that.
Um, the band goes chef, kiss,love them, yeah, absolutely, but
(02:19):
like but on a kind of aboutlike I would I like to think
when it comes to I don't want tosay spooky stuff, because I
freaking love spooky stuff, butcertain things I'm open to.
The things that are hard toexplain or difficult to explain,
(02:39):
I like to think.
I have an open mind, but veryfew things.
Am I 100% sold on or 100% notsold on?
So, like I said, ghosts mostlikely, but I haven't seen
enough damning evidence to belike absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Okay, so you've never like gone on a ghost hunt, done
any paranormal investigations,never experienced anything weird
I mean Closest thing I've doneto a ghost hunt done any
paranormal investigations neverexperienced anything weird, I
mean closest thing I've done toa ghost hunt.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Oh, I just experienced plenty of weirds,
but we ain't talking about that.
Closest thing I've done to aghost hunt was, uh, I think I
went to three stores to gettheir album prequel, like, so I
hunted for one of their seats.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
That's the closest thing I have to a ghost hunt
okay fucking sold out everywhere, man and I know we've talked
briefly about, like, paranormalshows.
You've you've seen a few, butyou know they're highly
dramatized.
It's, it's you know it's hardto believe some of the things.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, yeah, so okay, yeah the yeah, the guy who says
that, oh, there's definitely aghost here because it's cold in
alaska in in January with thewindows open at night Like get
fucked, dude, come on, no shit,it's cold.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, and the sad thing is, I think a lot of those
shows they both did a lot ofgood bringing the paranormal
into like everyday conversation.
They also did a lot of damagebecause some there are some
shows and I'm going to not saythe shows, but some of them have
(04:13):
been proven to like fake stuffand, um like one even went down
to the?
Um haunted prison that's uh inmoundsville, west virginia, and
they are never allowed to comeback because they literally went
and spray painted like shadowson walls and defaced the
(04:34):
property just um for for theshow.
(04:55):
Yeah, yeah they're neverallowed back.
Oh, dick move, dick move and Ilove it I love it so much and
I'm missing a scared gene Like Ijust don't get scared at stuff
like this, so it's a fascinatingtopic.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
You're probably more curious.
I would say it sparks yourcuriosity more than instills
fear.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yes, which is pretty dope.
I get that.
I understand that In kind of aweird effed up way.
I'm like that with with likegore in movies.
I kind of when I watched likelike gory, you know monster
movies or you know slasherflicks and crap like that.
I'm watching it more of like,oh, that's very good makeup, or
(05:39):
oh, that's like way overdone.
Everyone is like throwing upand like running for the hills
or whatever, and I'm like, hmm,interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, like how did they do that?
How'd they do that practicaleffect?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, yeah, I get you Corn syrup, same thing they use
in Carrie.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah and Cujo, all right.
So today I'm going to take youback to Victorian England and
we're going to unravel achilling yet strangely elegant
tale of one of England's mostfamous hauntings and one of the
first, most well-documentedcases in England's history.
(06:17):
So I know like you're a historybuff, so I thought this was
like the perfect case for you tohear, because it has a lot of,
like you know, history stuff init and it's just really it's a
compelling story.
So it sounds like it's QueenElizabeth's coronation, so yeah,
(06:37):
so this is a story of theCheltenham ghost is a story of
the cheltenham ghost and if Idid not, pronounce that right.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
People in the uk, please don't come for my head.
Well, I'm pretty sure that.
Well, first off, if you'remaking a like guillotine joke,
that was the french one.
Two, uh, I'm gonna be worriedabout the people in the uk.
I'd be worried about the ghostyou just defended.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, exactly.
So all right, Picture it.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Cheltenham, england, 1882.
Picture this Sicily 1923.
I was waiting for a GoldenGirls there Proceed.
Picture this Sicily 1935.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Shit All right.
So we have a well-to-do family,the Despards, and they move
into a house called Garden Reachon Pitville Circus Road.
It's a lovely home, plenty ofrooms, lots of sunlight and
apparently like one resident whorefused to move on.
So the house is a square.
(07:49):
It's a very unassumingstructure.
It was built around 1860 onland that used to be a market
garden, so hence the name GardenReach, and according to all
reports it was a house that wasin good repair no rats, no owls,
just a simple haunting.
You know, the usual stuff.
(08:11):
Yeah, simple, simple stuff, yeah.
So I want to get into a littlebit of the history of the house
because, depending on who youtalk to, it either plays a role
into what happened or it doesnot.
But I'm still going to gothrough it and I'm going to say
a name.
I'm going to say thisgentleman's name one time I'll
(08:35):
let you get your giggles out,and then I'm not going to say
the last name again.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Okay, oh, God, I'm so excited right now.
Hold on, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Okay, so it was first owned by Henry Swinho.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
That's not as bad as it.
That's a great name but it'snot I was waiting for, like
Gigglecock or something likethat, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
That's what I was waiting for.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I'm not sure if it's Swineho or Swinho.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Swineho.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
We're going with swine home yeah, so anyway,
henry was a solicitor fromcalcutta and his first wife,
elizabeth, passed away.
While they lived in this home,and henry never recovered from
his first wife's death, he begandrinking and he eventually
(09:26):
remarried a woman named ImogenHutchins, and let's just say,
things did not get any better.
They fought Like they fought alot.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So they fought about her drinking.
They fought about his drinkingdrinking.
They fought about theupbringing of the children.
They even fought about jewelryfrom his first wife because,
like, really nothing says happymarriage, like arguing over
heirlooms and hiding sapphiresunder floorboards, which that's
(10:02):
exactly what he did.
Like he took all of herpossessions and hid them under
the floorboards, which that'sexactly what he did.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Like he took all of her possessions and hid them
under the floorboards.
Damn.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Okay, yeah.
First off.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Add song title.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So eventually Henry and Imogen separated in 1876.
Interestingly, henry would diea few months later in that very
house, in a small front sittingroom, of dipsomania and
(10:36):
intervening sub gastritis whichis a fancy way of saying
alcoholism and stomach issues.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Jesus, like, like, yeah, you know what?
Why can't you just say thatJesus?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So between when Henry was in the house and the desk
bards moved into the house therewas some ownership between for
short periods of time, like itwould sit empty for a while.
People would live there, subletit for a while in any way.
In April of 1882, captainDespard and his large family
(11:15):
seven children moved in.
Just a footnote, I'm going totalk about a document later on
and in this document they referto this family as the Mortons.
So in some of the documentsthey're referred to as the
Morton family but the real nameis Despard, just to clear that
(11:36):
up.
Among the seven children was19-year-old Rosina and they
called her Rosa and she becamethe primary witness to the
strange events that would come.
And you can think of her askind of like this Victorian
version of a paranormal blogger.
And this girl was a very smartcookie.
(11:57):
Just a kind of a footnote onher, rosa would go on to become
the 23rd woman in England'shistory to graduate with a
medical.
I said she's a very smartcookie and she really looked at
(12:20):
all of these events from like avery investigative and
scientific-ish lens right fromthe very beginning, just because
of who she was as a person.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So, as all good things start out, it all began
with footsteps.
You know, it's like the classicopening of any decent haunting
footsteps in empty hallways,doors opening and closing, no
one there.
But things escalated whenmembers of the family and guests
(12:54):
and neighbors and dogs beganseeing a woman, and this woman
always wore black, her face wasveiled.
She moved silently anddeliberately, always following
the same path, through thedrawing room down the stairs,
never speaking, never reallyreacting We'll get to that in a
(13:18):
little bit but she just kind oflike glided around the house
like some kind of judgmentalRoomba.
And so the first sightings ofthis woman in black came in June
.
Immediately, rosa started thisvery detailed journal and so she
(13:41):
writes.
On opening the door, I saw noone.
But on going a few steps alongthe passage, I saw the figure of
a tall lady dressed in blackstanding at the head of the
stairs, dressed in blackstanding at the head of the
stairs.
So she followed the figure, buther candle burned out and she
zoomed it back to her room.
(14:02):
She was unsure of what she hadactually had witnessed.
Um, and you know I will say inher defense nothing will help
you sleep like seeing avictorian ghost in the stairs
and then losing your only sourceof light.
So, yeah, right.
So over the next two years shesaw this woman multiple times
(14:27):
and it was always the same.
So Rosa wrote this description atall lady dressed in black of
soft woolen material.
The face was hidden in ahandkerchief, held in the right
hand, a widow's cuff was visibleon both wrists.
The whole impression was thatof a lady in widow's weeds.
(14:47):
Do you know what widow's weedsare?
No, okay, I didn't think so.
This was new for me too, so Ilooked it up.
The term widow's weeds refersto black clothing traditionally
worn by widows in mourning,particularly in the Victorian
era.
The garments were part of astrict etiquette of mourning
(15:09):
that dictated both behavior andappearance following the death
of a husband.
The term weeds itself comesfrom the old English word wade,
meaning garment or clothing, andhas been used since the late
1500s to describe these mourningattire.
So now you've learned something.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
And knowing is half the battle.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Right, I just thought it was interesting.
I've never heard the termwidow's weeds before yeah, no, I
was the I.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I could have swore I was assuming it was gonna be
like I don't know, some type oflike actual, like weed, like
from like in like a swamp area,like a marshy area you know what
I'm talking about.
Like all this kind of just likethose are like widow's weeds
and so she, I'm picturing likethis you said that I'm picturing
this kind of like monstrous,looking like water hag or
(16:02):
something like that.
I'm like oh yeah, that'sterrifying and it's like no,
it's just black clothes.
I was like, oh, so literallylike any yeah, so like any kid
like between the ages of like 14and like 17 that had one
argument with their parents, gotit.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, exactly so.
Rosa, you know we've talkedabout she was very sharp and
observant and she began keepingdetailed notes.
And when I say detailed,detailed, she detailed, like
when they saw the ghost, whatshe was wearing, how she moved,
who witnessed it, and in total,over 20 people saw this ghost
over the years and theirdescriptions were eerily
(16:42):
consistent.
I just wanted to walk youthrough a couple of the
encounters that happened, justto kind of give you a sense of
what everyone was dealing withwith this woman in black, rosa
once saw the ghost enter a roomand I found this funny and enter
(17:03):
a room and lie down on a bedLike she was like literally just
trying to take a nap in themiddle of eternity, and I read
that yeah, like the ghost likelay down in the bed like she was
trying to take a nap, and and Ithought you, yeah, like the
ghost like laid down in the bedlike she was trying to take a
nap, and I thought you know,like same honestly relatable.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
We get it.
We get it, man.
I've been haunting all day, man.
My little wisps is tired Likeman.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah.
So another time a guest chasedthe ghost down the stairs,
thinking it was a real person,but she vanished before reaching
the door, which I also gottickled at, because it was
literally like me, an introvertat a party.
Yeah, a vanish very quickly.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Oh yeah, Smoke bomb.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah, wasn't she here .
Yeah, she gone.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Oh, she gone.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
So one of her younger brothers and his friend saw
this woman crying inside thedrawing room window and they ran
inside.
But then the room was empty.
And then on one occasion, Rosafinally spoke to the ghost.
Now, this is, this is wild,Rosa wrote in her notes.
She came past me and walked tothe sofa and stood there.
(18:23):
So I went up to her and askedher if I could help her.
She moved and I thought she wasgoing to speak, but she only
gave a slight gasp and movedtowards the door.
She seemed as if she were quiteunable to speak.
So I found that veryinteresting.
That, you know, because thereare these types of hauntings
(18:49):
where the entity is just on thisloop, it's like they left an
impression and it's just thisthing that loops back and forth,
back and forth, back and forth.
But what I found interestinghere is that there was a little
bit of good interaction there.
She went up to the ghost, shespoke, the ghost kind of
(19:09):
acknowledged her and it was likeshe was maybe trying to speak
or she was probably spookedherself.
Like you know, it's just one ofthose things where, you know,
the question is, the veil getsso thin.
Was this, was this like twodimensions, two different
dimensions, two different timeperiods passing each other.
(19:31):
You know can we?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
can we backpedal it for a second there?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Like had the, had the conversation with it.
You said like, maybe she wereyou referring to, like maybe the
ghost was like spooked as well,like she was spooked by her
okay.
So question maybe you'd probablyknow it's better than these,
but like, is it a thing?
Or like kind of, how funnywould it be if, like okay, you
know how?
Like we see ghosts and they'reat the paranormal from another
(19:56):
something, whatever.
Do you think ghosts get spookedwhen they see humans?
What the fuck are you doinghere, man?
Like you know what I mean.
Like she's just doing herVictorian shit.
She's just going to whatever itis and then she just sees, like
you know, hank from HR, whatthe fuck like?
What is that burrito?
What the fuck's a burrito?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
you know I I often think about the movie.
Oh yeah, that's a good one, youknow where you have in that
movie where the living areliterally crossing paths with
the departed.
And like you're seeing, theexperience of the ghosts from
(20:38):
their perspective you know, okayso.
I think, yeah, if you buy intothe theory that sometimes
parallel time periods orparallel universes or something
between the space and time kindof thins and overlaps, kind of
(21:01):
thins and overlaps, then yeah, Ithink it is quite possible that
ghosts can sometimes be asoff-put by quote-unquote the
living than we are of them too.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Oh, I'm off-put by the living too.
Don't worry ghosts.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I get it.
Yeah, I'm really off-put by theliving.
I get it.
I absolutely get it.
So to get back to the story, bymid-1894, the sightings of this
woman really peaked.
Rosa wrote that I saw thefigure come in at the open door,
cross the room, take up aposition close behind the couch
(21:40):
where I was, and I wasastonished that no one else in
the room saw her, as she was sovery distinct to me.
So it was around that timewhere others started seeing her
too, and when I say others likeneighbors and servants.
So one of the servants reportedhearing soft, slow footsteps,
(22:03):
sometimes knocks, sometimesbumps, and a cook went on record
and said I've heard thefootsteps before.
I've seen the figure on thestairs one night when going down
to the kitchen.
And she goes on to give adescription, and the description
is identical to what Rosa wrotein her journal.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Oh damn.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
And then the neighbors.
So there was one neighborreported seeing a woman in black
weeping in their orchard and heeven sent his son to check on
the family.
Of course no one was in theorchard.
And then one evening fourpeople saw the ghost within
minutes of each other one in thedrawing room, one in the garden
(22:48):
and then two on the lawn.
And like it was like, withinjust a span of minutes there was
, like this ghost flash mob,flash mob.
It's kind of fun.
I just find that interestingthat you know, within such a
short time span four people sawthe same woman in all these
(23:09):
different locations.
I just found that veryintriguing.
So you remember earlier I saideven dogs.
I want to go into.
The family had a couple of dogsand they had a large retriever
who stayed mostly in the kitchenor outside, and then they had a
sky terrier who was allowed tokind of move around the house.
(23:33):
And so I want to read kind ofdirectly from Rose's journal on
this one.
So she says a retriever whoslept in the kitchen was on
several occasions found by thecook in a state of terror.
He was also seen more than oncecoming in from the orchard
thoroughly cowed and terrified.
And then with the Sky Terrier,she writes.
(23:58):
A small Sky Terrier whom we hadlater was allowed about the
house.
He usually slept on my bed andundoubtedly heard the footsteps
outside the door.
The dog was then suffering froman attack of rheumatism and very
disinclined to move.
But on hearing the footstepsthat sprang up, sniffed at the
(24:19):
door Twice, I remember seeingthis dog suddenly run up to the
mat at the foot of the stairs inthe hall, wagging its tail and
moving it back and forth in theway dogs do when expecting to be
caressed.
It jumped up fawning as itwould do, as if a person had
been standing there, butsuddenly slunk away with its
tail between its legs andretreated trembling under a sofa
(24:42):
.
We were all strongly under theimpression that it had seen the
figure.
So what do you think about that, about, I mean, you have a dog,
all right, and you you kind ofyou.
You know her as well as youknow yourself.
If you saw your dog like kindof acting that way and there was
(25:07):
literally nothing there, whatwould you think?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Oh that I a million percent would believe my dog
acting weird over someone.
I'm just a million percentgoing to believe her acting
weird, like something is overthere.
That really isn't because weknow that dogs senses and eyes
and whatever can.
Just everything about them isso much more sensitive and so
much they're tuned sodifferently than anyone else's
(25:34):
and so maybe not seeing, butdefinitely sensing and feeling
and noticing something that wedon't.
She doesn't see something, butmaybe she does smell something,
maybe she did hear something ata different frequency.
That or at a different, um,just level like that that we
can't pick up on.
(25:54):
That.
I have million percent believethat she could and like would go
and like investigate this andlook towards that or or whatever
.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
it would be a million percent, I believe her yeah,
yeah, I I found the, the, thestuff about the, the animals, to
be very intriguing because,again, like you said, I think
animals they're very sensitiveto their environment.
They have better vision,hearing, smelling, their senses
(26:24):
are just much more attuned.
So eventually the familycontacted the Society for
Psychical Research, which isbasically a society of psychics,
and these people were like theOG Ghostbusters of the late 19th
century.
They dispatched investigatorsand they took Rosa's notes very
(26:48):
seriously and they interviewedmany of the witnesses and they
even conducted some experimentsin the home.
One of the experiments that wasactually conducted by Rosa
herself was putting stringacross the stairs, and I know
that kind of sounds funny on itssurface, but I want to read.
(27:10):
This is how like detailed shewas in the way she attacked this
case, and that was happening inher own home.
So she she writes I've severaltimes fastened fine strings
across the stairs at variousheights before going to bed, but
after all others have gone totheir rooms.
These were fastened in thefollowing way I made small
(27:33):
pellets of marine glue intowhich I inserted the ends of the
cord, then stuck one pelletlightly against the wall and the
other to the banister.
The string being thus stretchedacross the stairs, they were
knocked down by very slighttouch and yet would not be felt
by anyone passing up or down thestairs and by candlelight,
(27:57):
could not be seen from below.
They were put at variousheights, from the ground, from
six inches to the height of thebanisters, about three feet.
I've twice at least seen thefigure pass through the cords,
leaving them intact.
So I thought, for the timeperiod, that was a pretty
remarkable experiment in the waythat she thought that through.
(28:23):
You know, like I'm gonna putthis string, but I don't want to
trip anybody, but I don't wantpeople to know that it's there
either.
You know, in the in the factthat she knew that this, um, the
string could not be seen by thecandlelight, so if somebody was
walking down the stairs.
They would not know that it wasthere but, they.
(28:43):
If it was a solid figure, itwould pat.
You know they would.
It would take the strings down.
And the fact that she saw thefigure pass through the cords
twice and they were left intact,I think that's pretty
compelling evidence.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I'll give you that yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's something, it's something.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
It's something.
It's something it really islike it's.
It's one of those things Iguess I have to see it Like I
would have to.
I would have to, I'd have to bethere.
It definitely is compelling andit all makes sense, like I said
, that it is a scientificapproach to it.
For sure, it's just.
(29:27):
Yeah, it's like the mummy If Ican see and I can touch it, then
it's real.
That's what it is, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah.
So as a result of all of this,a full 21 page report was put
out in 1892.
That would become one of themost well-documented hauntings
in British history.
The sad thing is no one everreally got to the bottom of who
this woman in black was.
Some say it was the spirit of awoman who once lived in the
(29:57):
house and died under veryunpleasant circumstances.
Some versions say she was awidow stuck in time.
Some versions say it wasconnected to Henry and Imogen.
A lot of people think that itwas her that was stuck at the
house after she passed away.
But I think what makes thisstory so fascinating isn't just
(30:21):
the ghost, it's the tone.
This, this ghost.
She wasn't violent, she didn'tscream or throw books or try to
possess anyone.
She just appeared again andagain like some kind of tragic
rerun on a loop you know thequestion was she lonely, angry,
just exceptionally committed toher routine?
(30:42):
I mean, you know, we don't know.
That's the thing.
But I will say, what I think isalso so special about this case
is this was the first hauntingto be extensively documented
with a pretty scientific-ishlens.
We had multiple witnesses,multiple years, meticulous note
(31:04):
taking.
It wasn't just folklore, it waslike an early form of ghost
journalism.
And Rosa, she never stoppedbelieving, even years later.
She stood by every word in herjournals.
I think sometimes you know,belief isn't about proof, it's
about the feeling you get whenthe air shifts, when the room
(31:26):
kind of gets too quiet, and youjust know that you're not alone.
And I know that, like you,haven't officially ghost hunted
but, I, can tell you being inthose spaces.
There is just a feeling that youget in the air where you
definitely know that you're notalone.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
No, for sure that I can, um, that I can definitely
agree with.
Like, maybe that's I I'm tryingto think of like a specific one
that would make sense.
But I've had that feelingbefore where, like there's some,
there's something, don't knowwhat, I don't know anything, but
(32:10):
I'm definitely not by myselfright now and like, hmm, it's
almost like I can't think ofanything exactly.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
But it's like you can feel, like it's almost like a
static in the air, like the,just the, everything.
It just changes the air, thefrequency, the, the little, um,
micro things that your bodypicks up on that you're not
aware of.
Um, your brain is processingthings all the time that you're
(32:38):
not aware of it.
It just, you just know you'renot alone.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah, yeah, I'll give you that.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
So yeah, just a little footnote on the home.
Interestingly, the home isstill stands today.
So after the desk parts left,it sat vacant for five years
when it was bought and the namewas changed to N Holmes and it
became a boys preparatory school.
It opened its doors in 1898 andstayed in operation for nine
(33:11):
years, and then it sat vacantagain until 1910.
So from 1910 to 1912, it wasused for religious purposes by a
group of nuns, and then from1912 to 1935, it became St
Anne's Nursery College, whichwas an organization for training
(33:32):
nannies.
Okay, and then, in the 1970s, itwas used as accommodations by
the diocese and then, finally,in 1973, the empty house was
bought by a housing associationand converted into flats
apartments for us American rubes, and this is how the house
(33:58):
remains today.
So I mean, this is the uh,that's the end of my cheltenham
ghost story.
So what are you, what are yourkind of final thoughts on this
case?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
boo.
Eh no, no, listen, like I said,there's definitely more
evidence towards that thanfucking.
Oh, it's cold in alaska, um, sothat's a more believable story.
Like I said, it's definitelythe um experiment with that you
talked about, that's helping melean a bit more towards okay,
(34:32):
there's, there's a bit moreweight to this um than others
yeah, um, and I do, I have theuh, I have the whole pdf of the
report that was put out, the 21page report it is.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
It is a pretty fascinating um read because they
they mainly rely on a lot ofher notes, because her notes
were so meticulous andscientific in their own right.
They just kind of took what shehad and basically went and just
validated it.
I can shoot it over to you ifyou ever want to read it.
(35:07):
I think just historically tooit's interesting because, again,
it's one of the mostwell-documented hauntings in
early history.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, that's for sure .
I mean well-documentationdefinitely helped your case.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yes, absolutely so.
Yeah, thanks for joining us forthis paranormal episode.
Just remember, you know, thenext time you hear a creak in
the hallways or see a flickerout of the corner of your eye,
maybe don't run because it'sprobably just somebody reliving
their favorite daily routinefrom the great beyond.
(35:46):
Be sure to follow the BlackCurtain Club and, if you like
this tale, leave us a rating andreview.
It helps us find more curioussouls.
Leave us a rating and review.
It helps us find more curioussouls, and you can find us on
all regular social media outlets, so give us a follow there to
learn what's in store and someextra tidbits of information we
(36:07):
run across.
So until next time, staycurious and stay spooky.
Bye, say bye, kyle.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Peace out Cub Scouts.
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