March 31, 2025 • 49 mins
Two notorious women from history share eerily similar stories that challenge our understanding of female villains and the patriarchal societies that condemned them.
• Giulia Tofana created "Aqua Tofana" in 17th century Italy, a tasteless poison that killed approximately 600 abusive husbands
• Her poison business operated as a covert pyramid scheme disguised as a cosmetics shop, with dosing instructions similar to modern medicine labels
• Elizabeth Bathory, the Hungarian "Blood Countess," allegedly tortured and killed hundreds of young women in the late 16th century
• Bathory was never given a trial, and evidence against her appears politically motivated as King Matthias owed substantial debts to her family
• Both women were raised in extremely violent environments, married off as children, and showed signs of trauma and possible mental illness
• The stories of powerful women throughout history often become exaggerated or sensationalized, similar to false narratives about Marie Antoinette and Catherine the Great
• Many of the most extreme accusations against both women appeared decades or centuries after their deaths, suggesting possible historical distortion
• The podcast hosts suggest the truth likely falls somewhere between complete innocence and the monstrous legends that survive today
Listen to the Black Curtain Club every Monday for new episodes where we explore the darker side of history with a curious, thoughtful approach.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Before we begin today's episode of the Black
Curtain Club podcast, we wouldlike to share a quick disclaimer
.
The views, opinions andstatements expressed by the
hosts and guests on this podcastare their own personal views
and are provided in their ownpersonal capacity.
All content is editorial,opinion-based and intended for
(00:41):
entertainment purposes only.
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
All right, we're recording.
Hi Becca, Hi Angie, it's been acouple weeks, hasn't it?
It's been so long.
Oh, how are you doing today?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I'm going through it, but I'm ready to dive into this
.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah, yeah, I think everyone's been going through it
.
It's been a weird couple weeks,but we're here, right.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
We're here and nobody can stop us.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So, hi everyone, Welcome back to the Black
Curtain Club.
And today we have a specialtreat because we're going to
dive into the darker side ofhistory.
I'm Angie and I'm here withBecca and we've got a truly, I
think, chilling episode lined up.
So everyone get comfortable andwe're going to again take
(01:48):
another dive into history, butthis time with I don't know what
the fuck I was going to say.
I'm trying to do this off thetop of my head the true crime
twist.
Okay, yeah.
So get comfy, buckle up,because we're going to give you
a real true crime twist.
So, and I want to say onceagain, we blindly chose two true
(02:15):
crime stories that once againintersect.
I think it just, you know,speaks volumes to how much we
are aligned on the things thatreally get us going.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It really speaks to the hive mind that we share.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
That just keeps happening to us.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, for sure.
So I'm going to turn it over toyou and you can tell us what
you have All right.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
So for this week, I wanted to dive into a true crime
story that has been plaguing mefor years and I feel like not a
lot of people know about, andthis is the story of Giulia
Tifana.
And for this to make sense, Iwant to paint you a mental
picture, angie, okay, I'm allfor it.
So we're traveling back in timeto 17th century Italy.
(03:03):
You're a young woman ofmarrying age.
It's summertime, can youpicture it?
I can so daily life in this erawas very, very different,
depending on which side of thewage gap you lived on.
Noble women, this was peakItalian romance vibes.
We're munching on grapes in thevilla and we're drinking wine
(03:24):
on the credenza Like, yeah, itsounds great right.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, it does sound great.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
So this is kind of a trust exercise.
Let's continue with the pictureyou and I, we are not wealthy
women.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Oh man.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
This podcast hasn't exactly been lucrative so far.
Let's be real.
So for fairness sake, let's goahead and assume you and I would
be peasants.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Okay, done.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
In our finest rags, you and I would hardly fetch
noble husbands.
First of all, we aren't 14 14,so we'd be considered fossils on
the dating market.
Yes, women of our class couldhope for is like a smith or a
(04:15):
shop owner on the sketchy sideof town.
This is not 2025.
What would a woman that isstuck in a bad marriage do?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I mean I feel like she's got two choices kill him
or kill herself.
What would a woman that isstuck in a bad marriage do?
I mean, I feel like she's gottwo choices kill him or kill
herself.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
There's no divorce, right?
Exactly, there's no divorce.
Like you might as well commitwitchcraft openly, right?
So what if I told you there's alady down the road with a
potion that has helped about 600other women with the exact same
problem?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
well, I'm sold, I am.
I am walking down the pathwaydirectly, do not pass go yeah,
but you also.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
you want to be careful who you share this
information with, because thisis 17th century Italy, after all
, and our story takes placeright on the Vatican's doorstep.
To tell you her story, she wasa poisoner extraordinaire with
an alleged kill streak of 600shitty husbands, who was born in
(05:29):
palermo, and there's somespeculation as to her exact age
when she started her side hustleof toxicity, but there's some
evidence to suggest she used herweapon of choice to kill a man
as early as the age of 14.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Oh my god, you go girl.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
She got started early .
She knew what she wanted to dowith her life.
She had gumption.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I mean, she's a real go-getter.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
It sounds intense and the details are pretty foggy.
One thing we know for certainis that poisoning was a family
business.
It's said that in 1620, hermother was found guilty of
poisoning Julia's supposedfather.
Her mother gave her the familyrecipe and Julia fled to Sicily
(06:20):
to set up shop with five of hermom's most loyal friends when
her mom was arrested for themurder.
So when I say shut up shop,shut up shop, shut up shop, shut
up shop.
Fuck, this is hard today, fuckthis is hard today.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Shit up shop.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
When I say set up shop, I'm not talking like a
little booth at the market.
I'm talking like an Ulta stylebeauty shop with all of the
goodies.
She had creams and lotions andall the best cosmetics.
And she was also famous for ablack market item, a secret
little vial of her mama'smedicine, and this was called
aqua tifana what a name I knowit's legendary right.
(07:21):
It just gives you chills likeit.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Literally could not have a better name I mean, it
has such a ring to it like it's,I could see it being sold now
it's in stores now 1999.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
So aqua to fauna is what this little miracle in an
ornate crystal bottle is called.
The ingredients are somethingthat hasn't quite been
identified, but there is areason to believe it's a
concoction of lead, belladonnaand arsenic.
The effects are Okay.
The effects of this odorlessand tasteless poison, god, the
(07:59):
effects of this odorless andtasteless.
The effects of this odorlessand tasteless poison are Am I
still here?
My sound just cut out.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You are still here.
I'm muted because I waslaughing so hard.
I'm sorry.
Here I go.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
The effects of this odorless and tasteless poison
are listed out by dosage.
Mind you, it was said, and Iquote four drops is enough to
destroy a man.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I know.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Potent and effective.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
So this is literally like the drug information on the
side of Tylenol.
It gets listed out by thenumber of doses.
The first dose cold-likesymptoms, a general
under-the-weather feeling, so ifa woman had a cold.
The second dose we upgrade toman-cold.
So this is when they would belike send for the physician.
(08:54):
I am most unwell.
There are bad spirits in myblood, whatever the hell they
would say at the time.
On the third dose, all hellbreaks loose Dehydration,
burning in the throat and chest,vomiting and wicked diarrhea.
Yes, by the fourth dose, youare just big time dead, deceased
(09:18):
, big time dead.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
So it's a very well thought out and slow killing
process and this is veryintentional right, Because,
while they're bedridden, thehusbands are getting their
affairs in order and the widowgets the chance to look like the
perfectly concerned wifey ather husband's bedside.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
The authorities had no reason to search through the
cosmetics on her vanity.
Those are her silly women'sthings.
This a seemingly perfect crime,right?
Well, yeah, I think so right,and it's really cool because
it's like the original pyramidscheme, okay, so she and her
five friends set up shop andtheir five friends bring their
five friends shop, and she isthe tippy tip of the pyramid.
So she is like Queen Pharaoh,giulia Tufano, all of her little
(10:10):
network of people below her,and she has all of her five
friends tell five of theirfriends, so on and so forth.
And then we have the equivalentof 17th century Mary Kay
girlhood forward poisoning thatliterally takes over Italy.
They're getting everyonekeeper,smiths, lesser nobility and
even some higher ups likegaslight, gatekeep, girl boss,
(10:34):
and I wish I could be angry, butwhen you know the reason that
all of these women are doingthis, it just makes me sad, you
know right.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Right, because they're in probably really
miserable abusive marriages andthey don't have another way out.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
This is the only way out yeah and I touched on this a
little earlier, but I reallywant to go into what it was like
for women back then.
We forget how scary childbirthused to be one percent of women
died from complications inchildbirth at this time, and
when you factor in how goddamnyoung they were we're talking 12
to 17 years old, havingmultiple children.
(11:13):
And here's another fun fact itwas socially acceptable at this
time for men to abuse theirwives.
It wasn't even considered abuse, and the only thing that women
had was what their husbands leftfor them after their death.
There was no owning property,no owning your own bank account.
Marriages were arranged forconvenience and the hope of
(11:35):
offspring.
This was seen as the only wayout for a lot of women, and many
consider Julia Tufana to be ahero and I'm not going to say
one way or the other what Ireally believe but there's a
reason that this story stillholds a lot of weight today.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, I mean it definitely has some weight to it
.
Yeah, I don't even know what tosay about that.
I mean it's a systemic problemthat is still happening today.
Right, I mean we still havecountries and states that allow
men to be abusive to women.
Women are still considered asproperty, as chattel.
(12:11):
Yeah, I mean this storyabsolutely resonates on a lot of
different levels Resonatesresonates.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
So I mean I wish I could say that this has a happy
ending.
But at one point julia's poisonends up in the digestive tract
of a big, fancy duke, thoughit's no longer just the rabble
getting picked off one by one,like they got a really big
target and it draw.
It drew a lot of eyes likeespecially, they're on the v the
Vatican's doorstep.
This duke dies.
They figure out, well, juliawas absolutely involved and that
there were a few coconspirators.
(12:52):
So in 1650, she and a few ofher other dark priestesses get
apprehended and executed in jail.
But one little nugget here thatI find kind of cool, which it's
not cool, it's a horrible thingto say.
But just because Julia and theothers get taken out, this
(13:15):
continues to be a thing.
Like all of the women who haveset up shops selling their own
poison, like this littlepoisoning ring continues well
after julia's death and it's thereason why people say that
poison is a woman's weapon.
Like she is the one who set thebar for this.
She started this littleenterprise and it continued well
(13:37):
after she was dead.
And there's something kind ofempowering in that and the way
that her memory continued toinspire people to do what they
could to make a better life thanthemselves, even if it's
something like this, I guess,yeah.
Yeah, it's a gray area, right?
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
That's what makes it interesting yeah, it is a gray
area, but you know so much abouthistory is in that gray area.
You know, one person's hero isanother person's villain, right,
well, that's literally all Ihave.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
That is her story.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
That's a great story.
Well, my story that I have isvery dark.
So I want you to kind of buckleup for this, because it's very
gruesome and it's very dark.
So I want you to kind of buckleup for this, because it's it's
very gruesome and it's very dark, but I think it's an important
story to tell.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
I am strapped on and ready to go.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Okay.
So we're going to talk about awoman who met who.
So we're going to talk about awoman who made bad reputation
look like an understatement, andher name is Lady Elizabeth
Bathory.
So I'm going to dive into oneof the most notorious figures in
(14:54):
history, and this is going tobe quite a ride.
So I'm going to take youthrough a tale that involves
hundreds of victims, some prettygnarly torture methods and a
woman who possibly thoughtbloodbaths were the key to
eternal youth.
But I asked the question at thebeginning of this was she
(15:19):
really the monster?
Because I think there's acompelling case that maybe
history got this one wrong.
So I'm going to leave it up toyou, Becca, to decide whether
she was a true monster or wasshe a victim of a smear campaign
.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
So you ready you have my curiosity so piqued.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
All right.
So again, much like you, I wantto kind of paint you a picture
and kind of set the scene foryou.
Elizabeth Bathory was bornAugust 7th in 1560 in Hungary in
a family that really had someserious clout.
Her dad, George, was a soldierand part of the Hungarian
(16:02):
nobility.
So you can see right from thestart Elizabeth wasn't some
random peasant kid.
We're talking big castles,wealth and power.
Her family had connectionseverywhere.
But we can also say, ifchildren are a product of their
environment, she really didn'thave a chance.
So I want to talk a little bitabout her family, just to kind
(16:25):
of give you a picture of whatwe're dealing with here.
So her uncle, Stephen, becamethe king of Poland after
marrying the queen regnant ofPoland.
And just a side note, I did notpronounce that wrong.
I did not know there was adifference between a queen
regnant and a queen regent.
(16:46):
So just a little fun fact hereis a queen regnant is a woman
who inherits the crown in herown right but also has reduced
(17:10):
status as compared to the queenregnant.
So it's a little bit tricky,but there is a difference
between regnant and regent.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Anyway the queen regent got it yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
So he married um, clara bathory, and clara has a
whole side story.
So she allegedly took a loverwho killed her first husband and
rumor was she killed her secondhusband by smothering him.
There are also yeah, there arealso accounts that Clara was a
(17:49):
bisexual murderess who practicedsorcery in her spare time and
that she actually was the onewho taught Elizabeth the dark
arts.
Now again, I take all of thiswith a grain of salt, because we
know strong, powerful andespecially sexually powerful
women were often condemnedthroughout history.
So Claire was eventuallyimprisoned and there are
(18:12):
conflicting stories about whatexactly happened to her, but
basically all of them areterrible conclusions to her
story.
So let's take the focus back toElizabeth.
She was no stranger to hardship, so as a child she suffered
from epilepsy and migraines andback then people really didn't
(18:33):
know what to make out of it.
She was also known to be a veryspoiled child and prone to fits
and range and violence.
Some thought she was cursed oreven involved in witchcraft,
which really did not help herreputation at all.
I mean, there's nothing likebeing branded a witch child to
really set you up for goodfortune, right.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Dude, that's honestly .
I'm sitting here.
I'm like they're blaming herfor her epilepsy and her spoiled
behavior.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, yeah.
But one thing she did havegoing for her is that she was
pretty famous for her beauty.
She was known as this tall,dark-haired stunner.
So you know, in today'sstandards she would have
definitely been an influencer.
So then when she was 15, youknow, kind of go back to your
(19:24):
story.
You know these women weremarrying at very young ages.
When she was 15, she marriedthis guy named Farrick Nadasi.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Oh, that's a name you want to say, in the throes of
passion.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I said the name wrong .
Hang on Farrick Nadasi theDazdi.
So he was a wealthy,high-ranking soldier and he was
known to live on the darker sideof life.
So he was known to oftencruelly tortured Ottoman
captives and when I was doingresearch on this I thought this
(20:02):
was a really weird.
I shouldn't laugh, but this waslike a really weird way to pass
the time.
He was known to stick pieces ofpaper between the toes of his
servants and set the paper onfire.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I just thought that was so weird I mean effort it
took to make paper back then.
I know, right In between theWest Coast, I know I'm messed up
.
I am messed up, it's just so.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I just I'm like what the hell?
Okay.
So you know, I don't know,maybe their marriage was really
like some kind of match made inhell.
So you think, kind of her withher history and kind of marrying
I don't know adjacent or up,that she would have an easy life
.
Well, while her husband was offfighting, elizabeth had to run
(20:57):
the entire state, and so this iswhere things start to get a
little creepy.
So Elizabeth's husband is offdoing his soldier thing and
she's in charge of the household, and I want to remind you, this
is at age 15.
Some would say that she reallytook this power and ran with it
in a big way.
Eventually, people startednoticing she wasn't just
managing the servants, she mighthave been torturing them.
(21:20):
And so I'm going to pause herejust for a moment and say that
what I'm going to describe inthis next section are all
alleged acts that she was guiltyof, because, as the story
unfolds, I think there's acompelling argument that maybe
none of this was true to beginwith.
I want to kind of like set thisyou okay, yeah, okay.
(21:44):
Well, that was dramatic, okay.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Well, that was dramatic.
I was leaning in, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
I'll just shut up.
So accounts say that shestarted using her position of
power to punish young girls whoworked for her in ways that
weren't just stern discipline.
We're talking whips burningwith hot irons, sticking pins in
their skin.
I mean, like this was brutal.
So I am going to talk a littlebit in detail about some of the
things she was accused of.
(22:24):
Look, I'm a weirdo.
I fully admit that I like thedetails and I want for you to
understand the sheer brutalityof what she was accused of.
So these were some acts oftruly horrific cruelty and
violence, and much of thisevidence comes from testimonies,
rumors, political motivations,but some of these crimes have
(22:45):
really become central to hernotorious legacy, so I think
it's important for us to talkabout them.
An interesting footnote is thatit was also alleged that her
husband, while he was off at war, would send his wife love
letters and I say that in airquotes love letters because they
detailed advice on ways oftorture.
So again, match made in hell,right.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah, at least they take an interest in each other's
hobbies.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
If he wanted to, he would.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
So I just want to take a breath here.
It's going to get weird.
Okay, oh God.
Okay, oh God.
(24:09):
I want to dive into this firstpart, which is talking about the
torture and mutilation that shewas accused of.
So she was accused of whippingand beating her victims, often
to the point of death.
Some accounts suggest that sheenjoyed God young girls that she
captured using whips, sticksand other instruments to inflict
pain.
She allegedly used hot irons toburn victims, leaving permanent
scars, causing death throughsevere burns.
She would also put red-hotcoins in the palms of her
servants as punishment.
She also engaged in acts ofmutilate.
Why do I keep saying that shealso engaged in acts of
(24:31):
mutilation?
Why do I keep saying that shealso engaged in acts of mutilate
?
Mutilation, mutilation.
Why do I keep sayingmutilization?
What?
Okay, making up words here?
Okay, breathe.
She was also accused ofengaging in acts of mutilation.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
You know, I heard that she engaged in mutilation.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
She also engaged in acts of mutilation, targeting
her victims faces and bodies.
She would put them in spikeline cages and hang the cages
from the ceiling.
There was also accusations thatshe would cut or slice her
victim's skin, often on theirhands, face, other visible areas
(25:29):
, and a lot of this was as aform of degradation.
She was also accused of cuttingoff body parts like fingers and
breasts.
She would smear girls in honeyand allow them to be attacked by
insects, bees and rats.
She would also imprison hervictims in dark, cold rooms
(25:50):
where they were left to starveto death.
They were confined to theseplaces with no food or water,
sometimes for days or weeks,until they succumbed to the
hunger.
Another thing that she wasaccused of is locking her
victims outside in freezingconditions where they would be
(26:12):
exposed to harsh winter weather.
She would force them into cold,unheated rooms and then this
would often lead to death byhypothermia, and this was really
a cold, slow, painful death,and it would have been
excruciating and as agonizing asa way to to perish.
So it gets worse from there.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Oh my God, yeah, okay , I'm here.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So she would also engage dogs and torture.
So she would use her dogs totorment her victims.
She allegedly set them on younggirls, allowing them to maul
and tear at the flesh of hervictims while she watched.
And then, right out of you know, the Hannibal Lecter playbook,
(27:03):
it was rumored that she wouldforce women to cook and eat
their own flesh.
Yeah, there were reports thatshe herself would partake in
human meat.
She was also accused of bitingflesh off victims and sucking
their blood from their wounds,and an interesting side note is
(27:24):
that she is said to be one ofthe inspirations for Bram
Stoker's Dracula.
I can 100% see that, yeah.
So in the same vein, one of themost gruesome or infamous
accusations was that sheallegedly believed that bathing
in the blood of virgins wouldkeep her youthful and beautiful.
(27:47):
So witnesses claim that shedrained the blood from young
girls, either by slashing theirnecks or stabbing them, and use
that in so-called blood baths.
And then they not only allegedthat she collected the blood,
but she again actually bathed inthe blood.
So this is the part that reallybecame the central part of her
(28:11):
legacy, or her legend, and so,yeah, that was rough to get
through.
The other thing that she wasaccused of is again practicing
the dark arts.
So if these reports are trueand we're going to suspend
belief that this happened, we'retalking around 650 or so
victims, hundreds of girls, andwe still don't know exactly how
(28:35):
many she allegedly killed.
So you know, if she was doingthese, she wasn't exactly subtle
about it.
I mean, the bodies just had tohave kept piling up and up and
up.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
If this was true, there would be some kind of
proof.
These people didn't justdisappear, their bodies went
somewhere.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Right and you would think so.
You would absolutely think so.
The other thing that I found inmy research is that she was
also said to have been extremelypromiscuous.
She allegedly had a child outof wedlock at age 13, and she
would later take on a lover andI put this in here because I
(29:17):
know you're going to chuckle atthis name so this alleged lover
that she took on, he was a localhunk and his name was Ironhead.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I mean.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
He sounds like an X-Man.
I know, I mean the BloodCountess and Ironhead.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Issue three I read that and I thought I was going
to die.
I was like really.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Ironhead, of course, like with all of the things that
are being mentioned, of coursethey're like oh, and she also
had a baby out of wedlock andshe had a lover.
Look at this loose woman.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So, as what as always happensin these kind of stories, things
didn't stay quiet too long.
In 1610, after years of rumors,elizabeth's crimes were finally
reported to the authorities and, to put this in perspective,
she was 50 years old at the time, so she had been allegedly
(30:26):
doing these crimes for around 35years.
So a guy named Istvan McGarry,a Lutheran minister, who was the
one who got the ball rolling onall of these accusations, he
got a lot of people to talkWitnesses, survivors, even
letters from people who had seenthings go down in the castle.
So once the reports hit theroyal court, they knew they had
(30:49):
to do something.
So once the reports hit theroyal court, they knew they had
to do something.
But before Elizabeth's husbanddies, he entrusts her to a guy
named Gregory Thurzo, and he wasthe Palatine of Hungary and he
would also lead theinvestigation on her alleged
crimes.
He ordered two notaries tocollect evidence in March of
(31:14):
1610, and they came back withtestimony for more than 300
witnesses Although,interestingly, the actual
preserved records of any of thisonly showed 13 witnesses.
And there was also this allegeddiary that lists all of her
victims.
And I say alleged because thisdiary is nowhere to be found.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Right, so you're.
You're kind of like picking upon the breadcrumbs here.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Yeah, Some something's coming through for
me yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah.
So Thurso did have a dilemma.
A public trial and executionwould have caused a public
scandal and would have causedher considerable property and
wealth to be seized by the crown.
When the authorities didfinally show up to arrest her,
she was nowhere to be found.
She'd gone into hiding.
I can't really blame her If shereally wasn't guilty of these.
(32:08):
Yeah, I mean, I would go intohiding as well.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I mean she would be lynched, right.
It makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, it's a witch hunt,literally.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Right.
She knew that this kind ofarrest was not going to be a
slap on the wrist, that it meantdeath.
But here's the kicker, thoughAfter all of this alleged
evidence, 300 witnesses shedidn't get a public execution
like you'd expect.
Instead, she was just lockedaway in a room in a castle and I
(32:40):
cannot pronounce the name ofthis castle, I think it's Catch
Tice Castle where she was keptin a bricked up windowless room
with only small slits forventilation and to pass food.
She did die in 1614, andthere's still some mystery about
(33:11):
how she exactly passed.
Some say it was old age, somesay some say she was done in by
someone in her prison.
Either way, the one thing thatheld true was that, uh, she did
not die gracefully and she didnot die eternally beautiful,
like she allegedly thought shewould oh no, it did not end well
(33:37):
for her no, no neither of themso, in kind of doing some of
this research, I did find someinteresting things about what
was, what else was happeningaround this whole story, and a
lot of modern scholars haveinvestigated every aspect of her
life.
And one of the questions is wasshe clinically insane due to
(34:02):
incest?
Her parents were distantcousins, but this was fairly
common in this time period andwith royalty.
But here's the thing Noteveryone born of this construct
was a serial killer, right,right.
So then the next question iswas she a product of her violent
(34:22):
environment?
Elizabeth witnessed a lot ofbrutalities as a child.
There was one report.
It was a little disturbing, butagain, because I'm a weirdo, I
want to talk about this.
So one report was when she waslittle.
She witnessed authorities cutopen the belly of a live horse.
They stuffed a criminal inside,sewed him up inside of the
(34:47):
horse and waited for them bothto wriggle in agony until they
were both dead.
I personally think thatwitnessing this would severely
fuck up a child.
I mean, it bothers me to readthis, you know, yeah, but this
(35:10):
is what she grew up with right.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Exactly, she's a product of her environment.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
So back a little, back up a little bit, and I
mentioned Estevan McGarry andhow he blew the whistle on
Elizabeth.
But there's more to that storytoo.
The whistle on Elizabeth, butthere's more to that story too.
So, yes, he was a Lutheranminister, but his involvement
(35:39):
might have been driven in partby religious tensions.
So at the time Hungary wasunder the influence of both
Catholic and Protestant factionsand McGarry's accusations could
have been as much aboutpolitical and religious motives
as they were at exposingBathory's crimes.
Some even think that this wasjust a smear campaign against
her, particularly from rivalfamilies who were looking to
(36:01):
take down a powerful noblewoman.
So there are some historiansthat have argued that the
charges against Bathory werereally politically motivated and
they were trying to take downthis powerful, independent woman
.
The involvement of her familymembers, many of whom were
(36:21):
prominent political figures, ledto some speculation that
Elizabeth may have been a victimto just a simple conspiracy.
So Bathory's wealth, status andpower could have been threats
to certain people in Hungary andthis could explain why her
crimes were reported with suchintensity and why she ended up
(36:43):
with such a harsh punishment.
But wasn't quite.
But they didn't go so far as to, you know, hang her or you know
execute her right on the spot,right.
So many have put on record as adefense of elizabeth that she
was this political victim.
(37:04):
Um, as thurso made up thiswhole thing to get rid of a
political rival and this is thepart that really kind of got me
in this whole story he took assoon as he became the Palatine
of Hungary, he took steps toimprison Elizabeth.
(37:24):
Thurzo had been assisting KingMatthias in his efforts to
extend his control, and theBathory family was standing in
his way.
There was also evidence thatKing Matthias was after the
Bathory wealth.
It seemed like the king and hisimperial family owed a great
(37:50):
deal of money to elizabeth andher entire family and they had
trouble paying it back to due tolack of lack of cash flow.
So you know what's the questionthere, what you know.
I tend to think that this isleading more to like a smear
(38:11):
campaign than actual facts.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
It definitely lends that way, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (38:17):
It does, and it was hugely common to scapegoat women
during that time to be involvedin witchcraft.
Many women were accused, whentheir husbands dropped dead, of
common ailments during that timeand also interestingly, this
timeline also matches up withyour story.
I was thinking that.
So as you have Aqua Tofanabeing readily available in
(38:47):
stores worldwide, you have thisstory playing out also in
Hungary, I mean the timelines.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
They really do add up because we're talking about
after 1620,.
Julia Tafan is executed in 1650.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
The timelines do add up.
Yeah, the other thing was shewas never given a proper trial,
so there are no official courtrecords of facts.
All the confessions for allegedaccomplices were given under
torture or subsequently executed.
This supposed list of victimsthat could shed light on this
has never been found and none ofthese facts have ever been
(39:28):
truly substantiated.
It seemed like all of thesecame from like this wheel of
rumors and innuendos and,interestingly, the first account
of Elizabeth Bathory's killingspree appeared in 1729, which
was a century after her death,and it was in a book called
(39:49):
Tragica Historia by a Jesuitscholar.
One of the most sensationalizedparts of the Bathory story is
the idea that she bathed in theblood of virgins.
While some of the claims fromwitnesses suggest that she was
involved in blood rituals, it'shard to say whether she
literally bathed in it or it wasjust an exaggerated myth that
(40:09):
grew over time.
It's possible that thebloodbath stories were an
exaggeration from the trial orjust later gossip, especially
since most of the testimoniescame from those who were either
her enemies or people involvedin a trial.
But no trial in a trial, but notrial.
(40:32):
Still, the blood, still theblood connection remains part of
you know it's, it is the keypart of her myth and it's like
this wildfire that caught andthe accusations seem to have
gotten worse each time the storywas told.
Even centuries later, there arestill allegations coming up
about her life.
Um, I found allegations thatwere supposedly these new
allegations as far as 2016.
(40:53):
So, my God, yeah, it's.
It's just crazy the things likethe story just keeps growing and
growing and growing, but that'sher legacy.
Whatever her legacy is, itstill lives on.
Some people think she was astraight up monster.
Others think she was just awoman who got really unlucky and
(41:17):
was very misunderstood.
But you know, the story makespeople squirm and it's been a
tale that has been retoldcountless of times in books, in
TV shows and movies.
So I mean, there you have it.
That's pretty much the story ofLady Bathory, so I'd love to
hear your thoughts Like do youthink she was a true villain or
(41:39):
do you think she just caught upin a tale that spiraled out of
control?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Again, like I'm looking at the similarities of
our two stories and I'm seeingtwo children who never got a
chance to be children, two womenin a time when it was very
difficult to be a woman.
I think that she might just bea victim of circumstance and
media portrayal over somethingthey don't understand.
(42:05):
I think that there's.
It has a lot of legs, like Ican see where it's so
sensationalized and these thingsare so horrible that it's so
easy to jump to the conclusionthat she was some psychotic
murderer.
But there's also a lot ofcredence to the fact.
A lot of people wanted to seeher fall.
(42:25):
They had money reasons, theyhad personal reasons, religious
reasons.
She was a woman in control in atime when women weren't
supposed to be in control, right, so automatically.
It just makes you think.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
I think the truth probably lies somewhere in
between.
I think she probably was a verydisturbed person just due to
her upbringing.
Was a very disturbed personjust due to her upbringing.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
You know the, the migraines and the epilepsy, and
we don't know what kind of braindamage that caused or that they
used to treat it at the timeexactly probably gave her
arsenic and lead they could foraqua tovana exactly.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Rock, with Davana, exactly, but like you know, and
she was married off at age 15.
She had to take care of a smalllittle.
I mean you could almost look atit as like a small little
empire, right.
Right, her husband was verycruel.
I think that he probably didlove her in his way, but he was
(43:29):
a warmonger, he was happy beingoff fighting and torturing in
his own right, and so she waskind of left to her own devices.
And I think that the truth issomewhere.
I think she probably did somecruel things.
I think she probably probablydid some cruel things, like I
(43:50):
definitely could see her, youknow, putting the hot coin in
her servant's hands to punishthem.
You know, like these, like him,with the pieces of paper
between their toes, you know,just like these weird little
ways of punishment.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
This woman and hold her to a different standard,
when everybody at the time wastreating the servant class and
the less than class likeproperty, like they had the.
They had the right to treatthem this way and they're
demonizing her for doing it andthey're sensationalizing her for
doing what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
But I think you know it's like today, the rumor mill.
You know it's.
I mean, we have the internetand things can go like wildfire.
You know rumors and innuendos.
I mean you look at the powerful, the celebrities, and I mean
there are just completedatabases on the internet of
people that supposedly have thisdisease and that disease.
(44:48):
None of it's substantiated,it's just a rumor mill.
So back then they didn't havethe internet, they just had word
of mouth.
And I can see how like a storyit could start at point A, which
is just like hey, this woman istotally horrible to her
servants, to you.
(45:09):
Tell it enough times and youget it.
You tell that story through acentury.
I mean it's going to get blownout of proportion.
Everyone's going to add theirown little twist to it.
Everyone's going to just try tosensationalize it.
You know I could.
Just, you know it's kind oflike people around a campfire
(45:29):
telling a spooky story.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
Oh, I'm going to tell you this terrible story about
lady bathory, you know well, youlook at people like catherine
the great, the things that shedid for russia, like russia was
so united under her she broughtthe art, she brought science,
she shed light on religion andmoving towards the future and
not getting stuck in the DarkAges.
(45:51):
And they talked about how she,you know, had relations with the
horse.
And then we have MarieAntoinette, and let them eat
cake.
Was that really something shesaid or is that just something
that was really fun to sayaround the time?
Is that the meme of the century?
This is something that you seeit trending throughout history.
Powerful women get theseaccusations and allegations and
(46:14):
a lot of it can't besubstantiated, but everybody
still remembers it.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Right, right, exactly .
So I think you know I reallywanted to tell this story
because I just think it's one ofthese things that people really
need to think about and, on theoff chance that she is
completely innocent of thesecrimes, I just wanted to pay
(46:39):
like a little bit of tribute toher.
That you know, we see throughthe holes now, in 2025, like I
see the holes, I see, I see, seethe contradictions, I see that
you may have been innocent and Iwant to tell your story and
tell it in a light that maybedoesn't paint you as maybe as
(47:00):
big of a monster as you've beenpainted and I, honestly, I feel
the same way about julavana,like they talk about her first
crime at the age of 14 or 16,killing a man for the first time
, getting married off, and likeit's just, it's a sad story,
it's a sad portion of history.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
It's easy to look at the murder and be like what a
couple of bad women, but it'salso really easy to look at it
and think these were childrenand this is the life that they
led.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, Well, on that note.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
I mean they're very interesting stories.
We love true crime.
We have that touch of darknessin us where we talk about these
things and it makes us think andit makes us reflect and I don't
think there's anything wrongwith it.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
No, no.
Do you want to play us outthere, chief?
Okay.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
So this was I'm not going to say fun, this was
enlightening.
This was I'm not gonna say fun,this was enlightening.
This was another true crimeepisode with Angie and Becca,
two weirdos who cannot help butlook into the darkness and ask
questions.
If you enjoyed this, we wouldlove it if you would rate and
subscribe wherever you getpodcasts, listen to the other
(48:24):
episodes that we've put out,because we put our little heart
and souls into them, andremember, if you're alone and
you have nothing to do, you cantune in and join the Black
Curtain Club for 30 to 55minutes every week on Monday
when we release a new episode.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
I say amen, bye.
Oh, we're saying bye, okay, bye, bye, okay, bye, bye.
I think I had an out-of-bodyexperience.
I wasn't sure we were sayingbye.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
The horse?
I'm thinking of the horse.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
I'm thinking somebody slipped me some aqua to fauna.
I have a bit of a.
I have no.
No, I'm at the, I'm at thewoman cold.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Fierce.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Okay, all right, bye, bye you.
Before we begin today's episode of the Black
Curtain Club podcast, we wouldlike to share a quick disclaimer
.
The views, opinions andstatements expressed by the
hosts and guests on this podcastare their own personal views
and are provided in their ownpersonal capacity.
All content is editorial,opinion-based and intended for
(00:41):
entertainment purposes only.
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
All right, we're recording.
Hi Becca, Hi Angie, it's been acouple weeks, hasn't it?
It's been so long.
Oh, how are you doing today?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I'm going through it, but I'm ready to dive into this
.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah, yeah, I think everyone's been going through it
.
It's been a weird couple weeks,but we're here, right.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
We're here and nobody can stop us.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So, hi everyone, Welcome back to the Black
Curtain Club.
And today we have a specialtreat because we're going to
dive into the darker side ofhistory.
I'm Angie and I'm here withBecca and we've got a truly, I
think, chilling episode lined up.
So everyone get comfortable andwe're going to again take
(01:48):
another dive into history, butthis time with I don't know what
the fuck I was going to say.
I'm trying to do this off thetop of my head the true crime
twist.
Okay, yeah.
So get comfy, buckle up,because we're going to give you
a real true crime twist.
So, and I want to say onceagain, we blindly chose two true
(02:15):
crime stories that once againintersect.
I think it just, you know,speaks volumes to how much we
are aligned on the things thatreally get us going.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It really speaks to the hive mind that we share.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
That just keeps happening to us.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, for sure.
So I'm going to turn it over toyou and you can tell us what
you have All right.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
So for this week, I wanted to dive into a true crime
story that has been plaguing mefor years and I feel like not a
lot of people know about, andthis is the story of Giulia
Tifana.
And for this to make sense, Iwant to paint you a mental
picture, angie, okay, I'm allfor it.
So we're traveling back in timeto 17th century Italy.
(03:03):
You're a young woman ofmarrying age.
It's summertime, can youpicture it?
I can so daily life in this erawas very, very different,
depending on which side of thewage gap you lived on.
Noble women, this was peakItalian romance vibes.
We're munching on grapes in thevilla and we're drinking wine
(03:24):
on the credenza Like, yeah, itsounds great right.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, it does sound great.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
So this is kind of a trust exercise.
Let's continue with the pictureyou and I, we are not wealthy
women.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Oh man.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
This podcast hasn't exactly been lucrative so far.
Let's be real.
So for fairness sake, let's goahead and assume you and I would
be peasants.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Okay, done.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
In our finest rags, you and I would hardly fetch
noble husbands.
First of all, we aren't 14 14,so we'd be considered fossils on
the dating market.
Yes, women of our class couldhope for is like a smith or a
(04:15):
shop owner on the sketchy sideof town.
This is not 2025.
What would a woman that isstuck in a bad marriage do?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I mean I feel like she's got two choices kill him
or kill herself.
What would a woman that isstuck in a bad marriage do?
I mean, I feel like she's gottwo choices kill him or kill
herself.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
There's no divorce, right?
Exactly, there's no divorce.
Like you might as well commitwitchcraft openly, right?
So what if I told you there's alady down the road with a
potion that has helped about 600other women with the exact same
problem?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
well, I'm sold, I am.
I am walking down the pathwaydirectly, do not pass go yeah,
but you also.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
you want to be careful who you share this
information with, because thisis 17th century Italy, after all
, and our story takes placeright on the Vatican's doorstep.
To tell you her story, she wasa poisoner extraordinaire with
an alleged kill streak of 600shitty husbands, who was born in
(05:29):
palermo, and there's somespeculation as to her exact age
when she started her side hustleof toxicity, but there's some
evidence to suggest she used herweapon of choice to kill a man
as early as the age of 14.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Oh my god, you go girl.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
She got started early .
She knew what she wanted to dowith her life.
She had gumption.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I mean, she's a real go-getter.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
It sounds intense and the details are pretty foggy.
One thing we know for certainis that poisoning was a family
business.
It's said that in 1620, hermother was found guilty of
poisoning Julia's supposedfather.
Her mother gave her the familyrecipe and Julia fled to Sicily
(06:20):
to set up shop with five of hermom's most loyal friends when
her mom was arrested for themurder.
So when I say shut up shop,shut up shop, shut up shop, shut
up shop.
Fuck, this is hard today, fuckthis is hard today.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Shit up shop.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
When I say set up shop, I'm not talking like a
little booth at the market.
I'm talking like an Ulta stylebeauty shop with all of the
goodies.
She had creams and lotions andall the best cosmetics.
And she was also famous for ablack market item, a secret
little vial of her mama'smedicine, and this was called
aqua tifana what a name I knowit's legendary right.
(07:21):
It just gives you chills likeit.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Literally could not have a better name I mean, it
has such a ring to it like it's,I could see it being sold now
it's in stores now 1999.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
So aqua to fauna is what this little miracle in an
ornate crystal bottle is called.
The ingredients are somethingthat hasn't quite been
identified, but there is areason to believe it's a
concoction of lead, belladonnaand arsenic.
The effects are Okay.
The effects of this odorlessand tasteless poison, god, the
(07:59):
effects of this odorless andtasteless.
The effects of this odorlessand tasteless poison are Am I
still here?
My sound just cut out.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You are still here.
I'm muted because I waslaughing so hard.
I'm sorry.
Here I go.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
The effects of this odorless and tasteless poison
are listed out by dosage.
Mind you, it was said, and Iquote four drops is enough to
destroy a man.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I know.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Potent and effective.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
So this is literally like the drug information on the
side of Tylenol.
It gets listed out by thenumber of doses.
The first dose cold-likesymptoms, a general
under-the-weather feeling, so ifa woman had a cold.
The second dose we upgrade toman-cold.
So this is when they would belike send for the physician.
(08:54):
I am most unwell.
There are bad spirits in myblood, whatever the hell they
would say at the time.
On the third dose, all hellbreaks loose Dehydration,
burning in the throat and chest,vomiting and wicked diarrhea.
Yes, by the fourth dose, youare just big time dead, deceased
(09:18):
, big time dead.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
So it's a very well thought out and slow killing
process and this is veryintentional right, Because,
while they're bedridden, thehusbands are getting their
affairs in order and the widowgets the chance to look like the
perfectly concerned wifey ather husband's bedside.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
The authorities had no reason to search through the
cosmetics on her vanity.
Those are her silly women'sthings.
This a seemingly perfect crime,right?
Well, yeah, I think so right,and it's really cool because
it's like the original pyramidscheme, okay, so she and her
five friends set up shop andtheir five friends bring their
five friends shop, and she isthe tippy tip of the pyramid.
So she is like Queen Pharaoh,giulia Tufano, all of her little
(10:10):
network of people below her,and she has all of her five
friends tell five of theirfriends, so on and so forth.
And then we have the equivalentof 17th century Mary Kay
girlhood forward poisoning thatliterally takes over Italy.
They're getting everyonekeeper,smiths, lesser nobility and
even some higher ups likegaslight, gatekeep, girl boss,
(10:34):
and I wish I could be angry, butwhen you know the reason that
all of these women are doingthis, it just makes me sad, you
know right.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Right, because they're in probably really
miserable abusive marriages andthey don't have another way out.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
This is the only way out yeah and I touched on this a
little earlier, but I reallywant to go into what it was like
for women back then.
We forget how scary childbirthused to be one percent of women
died from complications inchildbirth at this time, and
when you factor in how goddamnyoung they were we're talking 12
to 17 years old, havingmultiple children.
(11:13):
And here's another fun fact itwas socially acceptable at this
time for men to abuse theirwives.
It wasn't even considered abuse, and the only thing that women
had was what their husbands leftfor them after their death.
There was no owning property,no owning your own bank account.
Marriages were arranged forconvenience and the hope of
(11:35):
offspring.
This was seen as the only wayout for a lot of women, and many
consider Julia Tufana to be ahero and I'm not going to say
one way or the other what Ireally believe but there's a
reason that this story stillholds a lot of weight today.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, I mean it definitely has some weight to it
.
Yeah, I don't even know what tosay about that.
I mean it's a systemic problemthat is still happening today.
Right, I mean we still havecountries and states that allow
men to be abusive to women.
Women are still considered asproperty, as chattel.
(12:11):
Yeah, I mean this storyabsolutely resonates on a lot of
different levels Resonatesresonates.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
So I mean I wish I could say that this has a happy
ending.
But at one point julia's poisonends up in the digestive tract
of a big, fancy duke, thoughit's no longer just the rabble
getting picked off one by one,like they got a really big
target and it draw.
It drew a lot of eyes likeespecially, they're on the v the
Vatican's doorstep.
This duke dies.
They figure out, well, juliawas absolutely involved and that
there were a few coconspirators.
(12:52):
So in 1650, she and a few ofher other dark priestesses get
apprehended and executed in jail.
But one little nugget here thatI find kind of cool, which it's
not cool, it's a horrible thingto say.
But just because Julia and theothers get taken out, this
(13:15):
continues to be a thing.
Like all of the women who haveset up shops selling their own
poison, like this littlepoisoning ring continues well
after julia's death and it's thereason why people say that
poison is a woman's weapon.
Like she is the one who set thebar for this.
She started this littleenterprise and it continued well
(13:37):
after she was dead.
And there's something kind ofempowering in that and the way
that her memory continued toinspire people to do what they
could to make a better life thanthemselves, even if it's
something like this, I guess,yeah.
Yeah, it's a gray area, right?
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
That's what makes it interesting yeah, it is a gray
area, but you know so much abouthistory is in that gray area.
You know, one person's hero isanother person's villain, right,
well, that's literally all Ihave.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
That is her story.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
That's a great story.
Well, my story that I have isvery dark.
So I want you to kind of buckleup for this, because it's very
gruesome and it's very dark.
So I want you to kind of buckleup for this, because it's it's
very gruesome and it's very dark, but I think it's an important
story to tell.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
I am strapped on and ready to go.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Okay.
So we're going to talk about awoman who met who.
So we're going to talk about awoman who made bad reputation
look like an understatement, andher name is Lady Elizabeth
Bathory.
So I'm going to dive into oneof the most notorious figures in
(14:54):
history, and this is going tobe quite a ride.
So I'm going to take youthrough a tale that involves
hundreds of victims, some prettygnarly torture methods and a
woman who possibly thoughtbloodbaths were the key to
eternal youth.
But I asked the question at thebeginning of this was she
(15:19):
really the monster?
Because I think there's acompelling case that maybe
history got this one wrong.
So I'm going to leave it up toyou, Becca, to decide whether
she was a true monster or wasshe a victim of a smear campaign
.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
So you ready you have my curiosity so piqued.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
All right.
So again, much like you, I wantto kind of paint you a picture
and kind of set the scene foryou.
Elizabeth Bathory was bornAugust 7th in 1560 in Hungary in
a family that really had someserious clout.
Her dad, George, was a soldierand part of the Hungarian
(16:02):
nobility.
So you can see right from thestart Elizabeth wasn't some
random peasant kid.
We're talking big castles,wealth and power.
Her family had connectionseverywhere.
But we can also say, ifchildren are a product of their
environment, she really didn'thave a chance.
So I want to talk a little bitabout her family, just to kind
(16:25):
of give you a picture of whatwe're dealing with here.
So her uncle, Stephen, becamethe king of Poland after
marrying the queen regnant ofPoland.
And just a side note, I did notpronounce that wrong.
I did not know there was adifference between a queen
regnant and a queen regent.
(16:46):
So just a little fun fact hereis a queen regnant is a woman
who inherits the crown in herown right but also has reduced
(17:10):
status as compared to the queenregnant.
So it's a little bit tricky,but there is a difference
between regnant and regent.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Anyway the queen regent got it yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
So he married um, clara bathory, and clara has a
whole side story.
So she allegedly took a loverwho killed her first husband and
rumor was she killed her secondhusband by smothering him.
There are also yeah, there arealso accounts that Clara was a
(17:49):
bisexual murderess who practicedsorcery in her spare time and
that she actually was the onewho taught Elizabeth the dark
arts.
Now again, I take all of thiswith a grain of salt, because we
know strong, powerful andespecially sexually powerful
women were often condemnedthroughout history.
So Claire was eventuallyimprisoned and there are
(18:12):
conflicting stories about whatexactly happened to her, but
basically all of them areterrible conclusions to her
story.
So let's take the focus back toElizabeth.
She was no stranger to hardship, so as a child she suffered
from epilepsy and migraines andback then people really didn't
(18:33):
know what to make out of it.
She was also known to be a veryspoiled child and prone to fits
and range and violence.
Some thought she was cursed oreven involved in witchcraft,
which really did not help herreputation at all.
I mean, there's nothing likebeing branded a witch child to
really set you up for goodfortune, right.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Dude, that's honestly .
I'm sitting here.
I'm like they're blaming herfor her epilepsy and her spoiled
behavior.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, yeah.
But one thing she did havegoing for her is that she was
pretty famous for her beauty.
She was known as this tall,dark-haired stunner.
So you know, in today'sstandards she would have
definitely been an influencer.
So then when she was 15, youknow, kind of go back to your
(19:24):
story.
You know these women weremarrying at very young ages.
When she was 15, she marriedthis guy named Farrick Nadasi.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Oh, that's a name you want to say, in the throes of
passion.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I said the name wrong .
Hang on Farrick Nadasi theDazdi.
So he was a wealthy,high-ranking soldier and he was
known to live on the darker sideof life.
So he was known to oftencruelly tortured Ottoman
captives and when I was doingresearch on this I thought this
(20:02):
was a really weird.
I shouldn't laugh, but this waslike a really weird way to pass
the time.
He was known to stick pieces ofpaper between the toes of his
servants and set the paper onfire.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I just thought that was so weird I mean effort it
took to make paper back then.
I know, right In between theWest Coast, I know I'm messed up
.
I am messed up, it's just so.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I just I'm like what the hell?
Okay.
So you know, I don't know,maybe their marriage was really
like some kind of match made inhell.
So you think, kind of her withher history and kind of marrying
I don't know adjacent or up,that she would have an easy life
.
Well, while her husband was offfighting, elizabeth had to run
(20:57):
the entire state, and so this iswhere things start to get a
little creepy.
So Elizabeth's husband is offdoing his soldier thing and
she's in charge of the household, and I want to remind you, this
is at age 15.
Some would say that she reallytook this power and ran with it
in a big way.
Eventually, people startednoticing she wasn't just
managing the servants, she mighthave been torturing them.
(21:20):
And so I'm going to pause herejust for a moment and say that
what I'm going to describe inthis next section are all
alleged acts that she was guiltyof, because, as the story
unfolds, I think there's acompelling argument that maybe
none of this was true to beginwith.
I want to kind of like set thisyou okay, yeah, okay.
(21:44):
Well, that was dramatic, okay.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Well, that was dramatic.
I was leaning in, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
I'll just shut up.
So accounts say that shestarted using her position of
power to punish young girls whoworked for her in ways that
weren't just stern discipline.
We're talking whips burningwith hot irons, sticking pins in
their skin.
I mean, like this was brutal.
So I am going to talk a littlebit in detail about some of the
things she was accused of.
(22:24):
Look, I'm a weirdo.
I fully admit that I like thedetails and I want for you to
understand the sheer brutalityof what she was accused of.
So these were some acts oftruly horrific cruelty and
violence, and much of thisevidence comes from testimonies,
rumors, political motivations,but some of these crimes have
(22:45):
really become central to hernotorious legacy, so I think
it's important for us to talkabout them.
An interesting footnote is thatit was also alleged that her
husband, while he was off at war, would send his wife love
letters and I say that in airquotes love letters because they
detailed advice on ways oftorture.
So again, match made in hell,right.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah, at least they take an interest in each other's
hobbies.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
If he wanted to, he would.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
So I just want to take a breath here.
It's going to get weird.
Okay, oh God.
Okay, oh God.
(24:09):
I want to dive into this firstpart, which is talking about the
torture and mutilation that shewas accused of.
So she was accused of whippingand beating her victims, often
to the point of death.
Some accounts suggest that sheenjoyed God young girls that she
captured using whips, sticksand other instruments to inflict
pain.
She allegedly used hot irons toburn victims, leaving permanent
scars, causing death throughsevere burns.
She would also put red-hotcoins in the palms of her
servants as punishment.
She also engaged in acts ofmutilate.
Why do I keep saying that shealso engaged in acts of
(24:31):
mutilation?
Why do I keep saying that shealso engaged in acts of mutilate
?
Mutilation, mutilation.
Why do I keep sayingmutilization?
What?
Okay, making up words here?
Okay, breathe.
She was also accused ofengaging in acts of mutilation.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
You know, I heard that she engaged in mutilation.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
She also engaged in acts of mutilation, targeting
her victims faces and bodies.
She would put them in spikeline cages and hang the cages
from the ceiling.
There was also accusations thatshe would cut or slice her
victim's skin, often on theirhands, face, other visible areas
(25:29):
, and a lot of this was as aform of degradation.
She was also accused of cuttingoff body parts like fingers and
breasts.
She would smear girls in honeyand allow them to be attacked by
insects, bees and rats.
She would also imprison hervictims in dark, cold rooms
(25:50):
where they were left to starveto death.
They were confined to theseplaces with no food or water,
sometimes for days or weeks,until they succumbed to the
hunger.
Another thing that she wasaccused of is locking her
victims outside in freezingconditions where they would be
(26:12):
exposed to harsh winter weather.
She would force them into cold,unheated rooms and then this
would often lead to death byhypothermia, and this was really
a cold, slow, painful death,and it would have been
excruciating and as agonizing asa way to to perish.
So it gets worse from there.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Oh my God, yeah, okay , I'm here.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So she would also engage dogs and torture.
So she would use her dogs totorment her victims.
She allegedly set them on younggirls, allowing them to maul
and tear at the flesh of hervictims while she watched.
And then, right out of you know, the Hannibal Lecter playbook,
(27:03):
it was rumored that she wouldforce women to cook and eat
their own flesh.
Yeah, there were reports thatshe herself would partake in
human meat.
She was also accused of bitingflesh off victims and sucking
their blood from their wounds,and an interesting side note is
(27:24):
that she is said to be one ofthe inspirations for Bram
Stoker's Dracula.
I can 100% see that, yeah.
So in the same vein, one of themost gruesome or infamous
accusations was that sheallegedly believed that bathing
in the blood of virgins wouldkeep her youthful and beautiful.
(27:47):
So witnesses claim that shedrained the blood from young
girls, either by slashing theirnecks or stabbing them, and use
that in so-called blood baths.
And then they not only allegedthat she collected the blood,
but she again actually bathed inthe blood.
So this is the part that reallybecame the central part of her
(28:11):
legacy, or her legend, and so,yeah, that was rough to get
through.
The other thing that she wasaccused of is again practicing
the dark arts.
So if these reports are trueand we're going to suspend
belief that this happened, we'retalking around 650 or so
victims, hundreds of girls, andwe still don't know exactly how
(28:35):
many she allegedly killed.
So you know, if she was doingthese, she wasn't exactly subtle
about it.
I mean, the bodies just had tohave kept piling up and up and
up.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
If this was true, there would be some kind of
proof.
These people didn't justdisappear, their bodies went
somewhere.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Right and you would think so.
You would absolutely think so.
The other thing that I found inmy research is that she was
also said to have been extremelypromiscuous.
She allegedly had a child outof wedlock at age 13, and she
would later take on a lover andI put this in here because I
(29:17):
know you're going to chuckle atthis name so this alleged lover
that she took on, he was a localhunk and his name was Ironhead.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I mean.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
He sounds like an X-Man.
I know, I mean the BloodCountess and Ironhead.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Issue three I read that and I thought I was going
to die.
I was like really.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Ironhead, of course, like with all of the things that
are being mentioned, of coursethey're like oh, and she also
had a baby out of wedlock andshe had a lover.
Look at this loose woman.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So, as what as always happensin these kind of stories, things
didn't stay quiet too long.
In 1610, after years of rumors,elizabeth's crimes were finally
reported to the authorities and, to put this in perspective,
she was 50 years old at the time, so she had been allegedly
(30:26):
doing these crimes for around 35years.
So a guy named Istvan McGarry,a Lutheran minister, who was the
one who got the ball rolling onall of these accusations, he
got a lot of people to talkWitnesses, survivors, even
letters from people who had seenthings go down in the castle.
So once the reports hit theroyal court, they knew they had
(30:49):
to do something.
So once the reports hit theroyal court, they knew they had
to do something.
But before Elizabeth's husbanddies, he entrusts her to a guy
named Gregory Thurzo, and he wasthe Palatine of Hungary and he
would also lead theinvestigation on her alleged
crimes.
He ordered two notaries tocollect evidence in March of
(31:14):
1610, and they came back withtestimony for more than 300
witnesses Although,interestingly, the actual
preserved records of any of thisonly showed 13 witnesses.
And there was also this allegeddiary that lists all of her
victims.
And I say alleged because thisdiary is nowhere to be found.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Right, so you're.
You're kind of like picking upon the breadcrumbs here.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Yeah, Some something's coming through for
me yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah.
So Thurso did have a dilemma.
A public trial and executionwould have caused a public
scandal and would have causedher considerable property and
wealth to be seized by the crown.
When the authorities didfinally show up to arrest her,
she was nowhere to be found.
She'd gone into hiding.
I can't really blame her If shereally wasn't guilty of these.
(32:08):
Yeah, I mean, I would go intohiding as well.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I mean she would be lynched, right.
It makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, it's a witch hunt,literally.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Right.
She knew that this kind ofarrest was not going to be a
slap on the wrist, that it meantdeath.
But here's the kicker, thoughAfter all of this alleged
evidence, 300 witnesses shedidn't get a public execution
like you'd expect.
Instead, she was just lockedaway in a room in a castle and I
(32:40):
cannot pronounce the name ofthis castle, I think it's Catch
Tice Castle where she was keptin a bricked up windowless room
with only small slits forventilation and to pass food.
She did die in 1614, andthere's still some mystery about
(33:11):
how she exactly passed.
Some say it was old age, somesay some say she was done in by
someone in her prison.
Either way, the one thing thatheld true was that, uh, she did
not die gracefully and she didnot die eternally beautiful,
like she allegedly thought shewould oh no, it did not end well
(33:37):
for her no, no neither of themso, in kind of doing some of
this research, I did find someinteresting things about what
was, what else was happeningaround this whole story, and a
lot of modern scholars haveinvestigated every aspect of her
life.
And one of the questions is wasshe clinically insane due to
(34:02):
incest?
Her parents were distantcousins, but this was fairly
common in this time period andwith royalty.
But here's the thing Noteveryone born of this construct
was a serial killer, right,right.
So then the next question iswas she a product of her violent
(34:22):
environment?
Elizabeth witnessed a lot ofbrutalities as a child.
There was one report.
It was a little disturbing, butagain, because I'm a weirdo, I
want to talk about this.
So one report was when she waslittle.
She witnessed authorities cutopen the belly of a live horse.
They stuffed a criminal inside,sewed him up inside of the
(34:47):
horse and waited for them bothto wriggle in agony until they
were both dead.
I personally think thatwitnessing this would severely
fuck up a child.
I mean, it bothers me to readthis, you know, yeah, but this
(35:10):
is what she grew up with right.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Exactly, she's a product of her environment.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
So back a little, back up a little bit, and I
mentioned Estevan McGarry andhow he blew the whistle on
Elizabeth.
But there's more to that storytoo.
The whistle on Elizabeth, butthere's more to that story too.
So, yes, he was a Lutheranminister, but his involvement
(35:39):
might have been driven in partby religious tensions.
So at the time Hungary wasunder the influence of both
Catholic and Protestant factionsand McGarry's accusations could
have been as much aboutpolitical and religious motives
as they were at exposingBathory's crimes.
Some even think that this wasjust a smear campaign against
her, particularly from rivalfamilies who were looking to
(36:01):
take down a powerful noblewoman.
So there are some historiansthat have argued that the
charges against Bathory werereally politically motivated and
they were trying to take downthis powerful, independent woman
.
The involvement of her familymembers, many of whom were
(36:21):
prominent political figures, ledto some speculation that
Elizabeth may have been a victimto just a simple conspiracy.
So Bathory's wealth, status andpower could have been threats
to certain people in Hungary andthis could explain why her
crimes were reported with suchintensity and why she ended up
(36:43):
with such a harsh punishment.
But wasn't quite.
But they didn't go so far as to, you know, hang her or you know
execute her right on the spot,right.
So many have put on record as adefense of elizabeth that she
was this political victim.
(37:04):
Um, as thurso made up thiswhole thing to get rid of a
political rival and this is thepart that really kind of got me
in this whole story he took assoon as he became the Palatine
of Hungary, he took steps toimprison Elizabeth.
(37:24):
Thurzo had been assisting KingMatthias in his efforts to
extend his control, and theBathory family was standing in
his way.
There was also evidence thatKing Matthias was after the
Bathory wealth.
It seemed like the king and hisimperial family owed a great
(37:50):
deal of money to elizabeth andher entire family and they had
trouble paying it back to due tolack of lack of cash flow.
So you know what's the questionthere, what you know.
I tend to think that this isleading more to like a smear
(38:11):
campaign than actual facts.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
It definitely lends that way, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (38:17):
It does, and it was hugely common to scapegoat women
during that time to be involvedin witchcraft.
Many women were accused, whentheir husbands dropped dead, of
common ailments during that timeand also interestingly, this
timeline also matches up withyour story.
I was thinking that.
So as you have Aqua Tofanabeing readily available in
(38:47):
stores worldwide, you have thisstory playing out also in
Hungary, I mean the timelines.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
They really do add up because we're talking about
after 1620,.
Julia Tafan is executed in 1650.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
The timelines do add up.
Yeah, the other thing was shewas never given a proper trial,
so there are no official courtrecords of facts.
All the confessions for allegedaccomplices were given under
torture or subsequently executed.
This supposed list of victimsthat could shed light on this
has never been found and none ofthese facts have ever been
(39:28):
truly substantiated.
It seemed like all of thesecame from like this wheel of
rumors and innuendos and,interestingly, the first account
of Elizabeth Bathory's killingspree appeared in 1729, which
was a century after her death,and it was in a book called
(39:49):
Tragica Historia by a Jesuitscholar.
One of the most sensationalizedparts of the Bathory story is
the idea that she bathed in theblood of virgins.
While some of the claims fromwitnesses suggest that she was
involved in blood rituals, it'shard to say whether she
literally bathed in it or it wasjust an exaggerated myth that
(40:09):
grew over time.
It's possible that thebloodbath stories were an
exaggeration from the trial orjust later gossip, especially
since most of the testimoniescame from those who were either
her enemies or people involvedin a trial.
But no trial in a trial, but notrial.
(40:32):
Still, the blood, still theblood connection remains part of
you know it's, it is the keypart of her myth and it's like
this wildfire that caught andthe accusations seem to have
gotten worse each time the storywas told.
Even centuries later, there arestill allegations coming up
about her life.
Um, I found allegations thatwere supposedly these new
allegations as far as 2016.
(40:53):
So, my God, yeah, it's.
It's just crazy the things likethe story just keeps growing and
growing and growing, but that'sher legacy.
Whatever her legacy is, itstill lives on.
Some people think she was astraight up monster.
Others think she was just awoman who got really unlucky and
(41:17):
was very misunderstood.
But you know, the story makespeople squirm and it's been a
tale that has been retoldcountless of times in books, in
TV shows and movies.
So I mean, there you have it.
That's pretty much the story ofLady Bathory, so I'd love to
hear your thoughts Like do youthink she was a true villain or
(41:39):
do you think she just caught upin a tale that spiraled out of
control?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Again, like I'm looking at the similarities of
our two stories and I'm seeingtwo children who never got a
chance to be children, two womenin a time when it was very
difficult to be a woman.
I think that she might just bea victim of circumstance and
media portrayal over somethingthey don't understand.
(42:05):
I think that there's.
It has a lot of legs, like Ican see where it's so
sensationalized and these thingsare so horrible that it's so
easy to jump to the conclusionthat she was some psychotic
murderer.
But there's also a lot ofcredence to the fact.
A lot of people wanted to seeher fall.
(42:25):
They had money reasons, theyhad personal reasons, religious
reasons.
She was a woman in control in atime when women weren't
supposed to be in control, right, so automatically.
It just makes you think.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
I think the truth probably lies somewhere in
between.
I think she probably was a verydisturbed person just due to
her upbringing.
Was a very disturbed personjust due to her upbringing.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
You know the, the migraines and the epilepsy, and
we don't know what kind of braindamage that caused or that they
used to treat it at the timeexactly probably gave her
arsenic and lead they could foraqua tovana exactly.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Rock, with Davana, exactly, but like you know, and
she was married off at age 15.
She had to take care of a smalllittle.
I mean you could almost look atit as like a small little
empire, right.
Right, her husband was verycruel.
I think that he probably didlove her in his way, but he was
(43:29):
a warmonger, he was happy beingoff fighting and torturing in
his own right, and so she waskind of left to her own devices.
And I think that the truth issomewhere.
I think she probably did somecruel things.
I think she probably probablydid some cruel things, like I
(43:50):
definitely could see her, youknow, putting the hot coin in
her servant's hands to punishthem.
You know, like these, like him,with the pieces of paper
between their toes, you know,just like these weird little
ways of punishment.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
This woman and hold her to a different standard,
when everybody at the time wastreating the servant class and
the less than class likeproperty, like they had the.
They had the right to treatthem this way and they're
demonizing her for doing it andthey're sensationalizing her for
doing what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
But I think you know it's like today, the rumor mill.
You know it's.
I mean, we have the internetand things can go like wildfire.
You know rumors and innuendos.
I mean you look at the powerful, the celebrities, and I mean
there are just completedatabases on the internet of
people that supposedly have thisdisease and that disease.
(44:48):
None of it's substantiated,it's just a rumor mill.
So back then they didn't havethe internet, they just had word
of mouth.
And I can see how like a storyit could start at point A, which
is just like hey, this woman istotally horrible to her
servants, to you.
(45:09):
Tell it enough times and youget it.
You tell that story through acentury.
I mean it's going to get blownout of proportion.
Everyone's going to add theirown little twist to it.
Everyone's going to just try tosensationalize it.
You know I could.
Just, you know it's kind oflike people around a campfire
(45:29):
telling a spooky story.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
Oh, I'm going to tell you this terrible story about
lady bathory, you know well, youlook at people like catherine
the great, the things that shedid for russia, like russia was
so united under her she broughtthe art, she brought science,
she shed light on religion andmoving towards the future and
not getting stuck in the DarkAges.
(45:51):
And they talked about how she,you know, had relations with the
horse.
And then we have MarieAntoinette, and let them eat
cake.
Was that really something shesaid or is that just something
that was really fun to sayaround the time?
Is that the meme of the century?
This is something that you seeit trending throughout history.
Powerful women get theseaccusations and allegations and
(46:14):
a lot of it can't besubstantiated, but everybody
still remembers it.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Right, right, exactly .
So I think you know I reallywanted to tell this story
because I just think it's one ofthese things that people really
need to think about and, on theoff chance that she is
completely innocent of thesecrimes, I just wanted to pay
(46:39):
like a little bit of tribute toher.
That you know, we see throughthe holes now, in 2025, like I
see the holes, I see, I see, seethe contradictions, I see that
you may have been innocent and Iwant to tell your story and
tell it in a light that maybedoesn't paint you as maybe as
(47:00):
big of a monster as you've beenpainted and I, honestly, I feel
the same way about julavana,like they talk about her first
crime at the age of 14 or 16,killing a man for the first time
, getting married off, and likeit's just, it's a sad story,
it's a sad portion of history.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
It's easy to look at the murder and be like what a
couple of bad women, but it'salso really easy to look at it
and think these were childrenand this is the life that they
led.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, Well, on that note.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
I mean they're very interesting stories.
We love true crime.
We have that touch of darknessin us where we talk about these
things and it makes us think andit makes us reflect and I don't
think there's anything wrongwith it.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
No, no.
Do you want to play us outthere, chief?
Okay.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
So this was I'm not going to say fun, this was
enlightening.
This was I'm not gonna say fun,this was enlightening.
This was another true crimeepisode with Angie and Becca,
two weirdos who cannot help butlook into the darkness and ask
questions.
If you enjoyed this, we wouldlove it if you would rate and
subscribe wherever you getpodcasts, listen to the other
(48:24):
episodes that we've put out,because we put our little heart
and souls into them, andremember, if you're alone and
you have nothing to do, you cantune in and join the Black
Curtain Club for 30 to 55minutes every week on Monday
when we release a new episode.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
I say amen, bye.
Oh, we're saying bye, okay, bye, bye, okay, bye, bye.
I think I had an out-of-bodyexperience.
I wasn't sure we were sayingbye.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
The horse?
I'm thinking of the horse.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
I'm thinking somebody slipped me some aqua to fauna.
I have a bit of a.
I have no.
No, I'm at the, I'm at thewoman cold.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Fierce.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Okay, all right, bye, bye you.
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