Global Rhythms: All Things Travel with Dean Hayter

Welcome to another episode of the Black Expat Podcast! Join Carl as he sits down with Dean, a passionate traveler and music enthusiast, for an enlightening conversation about the intersection of travel and music. Dean shares his unique travel origin story, growing up in London, and how his love for music and travel has shaped his life and career.

Discover how music can offer a unique insight into different destinations and cultures, and hear Dean's fascinating experiences from exploring the Middle East to his unforgettable moments in Greece. Dean also dives into the concept of travel psychology, offering valuable tips on how to enhance your travel experiences by understanding the emotional journey of travel.

Whether you're a seasoned traveler or just starting your journey, this episode is packed with inspiration and practical advice. Don't miss out on Dean's insights and a wonderful conversation!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
What up everybody and welcome to another episode of the Black Expat Podcast.
My name is Carl and I'm excited to be rocking with you guys for yet another episode.
I am back and I am with another amazing, amazing, truly wonderful person,
guest, colleague, friend.
There's so many things I can say about this wonderful person,

(00:21):
but without further ado, I want to allow him to introduce himself.
Dean, how are you doing today? it hello i am very good i'm very excited to be
here it's my first ever podcast so yeah i'm hyped really your very first podcast
so i know it's crazy i've actually i had a plan to do a podcast.
A while ago and i've got the mic and everything but i

(00:42):
just i couldn't find a topic that i wanted to talk about enough but
i yeah i i it was definitely in the works well
okay so really quick just off the top of your head i do want to let you introduce
yourself but this is a great start so like what is something you could
just talk about endlessly just one topic that if i asked you
about it you could go on about it for days probably music
i could talk about music forever yeah

(01:06):
and like do you feel like do you feel that you can make parallels to your travel
stories through your music oh yeah definitely i i find that music is exceptionally
important when i travel and so something that i really love to do especially
before i go somewhere for the very
first time, or if it's somewhere that I don't know that well,
I love to explore the different types of music that is very prevalent to that destination.

(01:32):
And I love hearing local bands in local languages.
I love, because I really do feel that if you can understand or just explore
the music in that place, you end up having a really unique insight into that destination.
Destination and so one thing that I actually do everywhere that I travel I always

(01:53):
ask for the radio to be on because it's really interesting the types of adverts
that you listen to because you really get a good window into that place and
then like the music that they play on the radios and things like that so for
me music is a huge part of my travel experience.
That's amazing. As you were talking, because again, I do know this about you,

(02:13):
that you have a strong passion for music, but it's like the story of your travels through music.
And the way I picture it is you play a song or something that you heard while
you were traveling to one destination, and then you tell the story of what you
felt, what you saw, how it connected you to the place where you were at.
I mean, it doesn't have to be very long.
It could be five minutes where you just play the song or a snippet of the song,

(02:35):
you know, with all these licensing rules is kind of tough.
But play that and then like tell the story behind it like that.
I will listen to that all day, every day, especially if it's coming from you. Like, yeah, I'm sorry.
You guys know I love podcasting. That was completely unrelated to Dana introducing
himself, but that was just a great way to start.
But no, if you ever start a podcasting, let me know. I will help you do everything.

(02:55):
Oh, you would be my first guest for sure. My honored guest.
My goodness, now I have to sharpen up on my music skills. I kind of,
okay, sorry guys, I'm going to go into a different direction.
Dean, can you introduce yourself, a little bit about your background,
and then what's your travel origin story?
Absolutely. So my name is Dean. I was born in London, and I was born to a London black taxi driver.

(03:19):
So actually, I think my travel story started at a really young age,
because my dad has has been a London black cabbie, as we say,
for a very, very long time.
I think I was about four or five when he got his license.
And they're very difficult to get. They take about three years.
It's kind of like a university degree. They're very hard to get because you

(03:40):
have to be able to memorize every single road, every backstreet across the entire
city of London, which is a very big city.
So I actually think that had something to do with my passion for travel,
because he would be telling me about like people that he would have in his taxis,
tourists that he would have.
And so you'd hear all these really unique stories. My mom worked in a supermarket

(04:02):
and she had some really interesting stories to tell as well.
And so I grew up in a very modest family.
Council flat in King's Cross. Like council in England is kind of like the projects, I guess, in the US.
So I grew up there and I grew up there in the nineties. So back then King's
Cross was a very rough place to be.

(04:24):
We had a lot of undesirables kind of around the, like the flats that we lived
in and walking to school.
I'll always remember we used to walk past like syringes and things outside churches,
there was prostitutes outside.
I mean, it really was that kind of area that we grew up in.
And it wasn't the safest. So when I was about 13, my dad, well,

(04:46):
my parents moved us out of central London and up to North London to Luton,
which a lot of people might know because of the airport.
It's a very big regional airport for the UK and has great access to Europe.
And And then when I was 18, I moved down south of England to a place called

(05:09):
Portsmouth and I studied film at university.
So that's what I did when I went to college. I studied film and I was under
the impression that I was going to become a music video director.
That was my, that was really what I wanted to do. And it really came from Missy
Elliot in the early 2000s.
Thousands she had that one director that would

(05:30):
do a lot of her music videos especially like past
that dutch and things like that and he would actually be in them
and he was just such a creative i loved his
music videos and i would watch all of these because
i've obviously always had a passion for music so i would watch all
these things and be like god that looks so much fun and i would
create my own music videos at home i mean
i yeah i was that type of person and so like

(05:53):
in my mind I was like okay I'm gonna go I'm gonna study film
and then I'm gonna become a music video director that's what
I'm gonna do and then I graduated in
2009 so it was the height of the
recession which really wasn't ideal and it
was it was really difficult because when I graduated I wasn't
even able to get an unpaid internship at like the BBC or Channel 4 or anything

(06:15):
like that it was a really difficult time to have graduated in and so like like
throughout that entire period I started working when I was about 15 and I would
work in a supermarket, kind of like a Walmart.
I think it's actually owned by Walmart. It's called Asda. And I worked there
all throughout college.
And then so I graduated and I couldn't find a job. So I was continuing working

(06:37):
at the Asda, kind of like near my house.
And I was just having a conversation one day with my auntie who has lived in
Dubai for about 20, I think at that point it was like 23 years.
She moved out there in the very early 90s. It was very...
It hadn't really built up at all. And at that point, I had also been out to Dubai quite a few times.

(06:58):
It was a place that I've just kind of been to because of my aunt and me and
my auntie were very close.
And she was saying to me one day, why don't you have a look at film opportunities in Abu Dhabi?
They have a really booming industry at that, at that point, they were putting
a lot of money into their film industry. So she said, why don't you come across?
So I said, actually, that would be a really good idea. I really liked the Middle East.

(07:19):
It's, it's always been a destination that I've always been very drawn to.
I've always loved that region.
So I was like, actually, yeah, that would be really interesting.
So I gave myself three months and I said, if I don't have a job in three months
time, then I have to move back home.
So I left. And then it so happened that around that time, it was the Arabian travel market.

(07:39):
And my uncle had a company that was a representation company and he had a general
manager who was doing it.
And he said, would you come to the Arabian travel market
conference show because we need someone just to help us
man the stands because they had a lot of international clients coming
over from the US well for example and so
I said yeah absolutely fine and I had

(08:02):
experience with travel already because when I
had graduated I took four months off and I
went backpacking around Asia and when I was backpacking that
was where I just really fell in love with travel
because I was so immersed in it and it
was it was proper backpacking I had my rucksack and I didn't
have a huge amount of money but I made what I could work

(08:22):
and it was it was so eye-opening and
it was the first time I'd ever had culture shock
and I was just I'd never experienced that before
and that was so just kind of intoxicating I was like wow I'm really out of my
depth but I love that feeling so I had that experience and then so when I was
doing the Arabian travel market an opportunity presented itself for me to do

(08:45):
part-time work for the representation company while I was continuing to try
and find something in Abu Dhabi.
After, I think it was about six months, the general manager at the time said,
you're doing a really good job. You're picking things up very, very quickly.
Would you like to have a full-time job and a visa so I was able to stay in Dubai?
And I, yeah, I mean, I jumped at the chance.

(09:06):
And then I think within like a year and a half, I was sales and marketing manager
and I was looking after the Middle East region, and that was Kuwait and Saudi and Bahrain.
And so I was there for about, I think it was like eight years.
I was there for a really long time. And I lived in Dubai.
I absolutely adored it. I got to travel across the whole Middle East, which I love.

(09:27):
That was super fascinating, especially places like Saudi Arabia,
where it was, I mean, like back then it was very difficult to get to Saudi Arabia.
I used to have to present a massive pile of paperwork that would be like an invitation letter.
And I used to have to prove that I wasn't going to stay in Saudi Arabia.
And it was, it was really crazy. And so that was super interesting.

(09:47):
And then during that period of time, I met my partner.
And I had met my partner when I came home on Christmas and we were like hanging
out a huge amount. We kept in contact for years.
Then we lost contact for a couple of years and then we kind of reconnected again.
And then we decided to do long distance.

(10:09):
We did that for about a year and a half. And then I decided that I had been
away for a really long time.
And so I decided, you know what, I'm quite happy to move back to the UK.
And so that's kind of how I came back I
came back home I had a really difficult period of time
when I first came back there was a lot of like personal
tragedy that happened in a very short space of time and that was quite overwhelming

(10:32):
and it took me a very long time to actually be able to get a job which I was
quite surprised with because at that point I had been a regional sales and marketing
manager for quite a long time but it didn't translate to the UK market and that
was really, really fascinating.
I didn't expect that, but then I ended up working for a really interesting bespoke travel company.

(10:54):
And that was really interesting in a, in a lot of different ways because I had
done a lot of, I had a lot of luxury travel experience because of my previous role.
And we were working with diplomats. We were working with the Royal families
of different Middle Eastern countries.
So I had that experience behind me, but this was a different type of experience
because I had never actually been a curator before.

(11:16):
So this was my first curation experience.
And it was just mind blowing. The things that I learned was really interesting.
And then COVID happened.
So that changed travel for a lot of people. And then it became time to leave.
And then I remember one day seeing an advert for Sensor.

(11:37):
And I had this really weird feeling that that was going to be my next job.
And yeah, like three and a half years later, to here I am.
That's amazing. And you know, like, as you're speaking, there's so many parallels
that I just kind of want to point out. That's so interesting. And this is what I say.
One of the, one of the greatest joys I get is into other people about not just
where they travel to, but their overall introduction into travel and their journey

(12:00):
through it. Because like I said, I think.
In some ways, everyone travels, right? We all go to places that are new that
we've never been before.
But once you step outside your comfort zone and you're in a new place entirely
where you feel uncomfortable, you don't really understand the language or like
the food is different than what you're used to.
Like that to me, it's defined like a life-changing, if you will,

(12:20):
travel experience where your perspectives are shifted.
But as you were speaking, I was just pointing out things like,
okay, well, I graduated in 2010, the same thing, right? It was like the peak of the recession.
And I, and that kind of prompted me to find this job in Taiwan,
which just changed the entire trajectory of my entire life.
And I'm like, yes, well, I worked in Taiwan for eight years. I was a director.

(12:40):
I had my own team. Like I ran this huge program with more than like 50 people.
But then when I came back to America, it didn't translate.
It was like, yeah, that was great over there. But over here,
you know, like what job can you have?
Then I was, well, I love travel. I traveled a lot.
This is actually one of my biggest his passions, like on my own bar,
but like, I don't want to necessarily do that in America because of all the

(13:01):
red tape, but there's just so many parallels to like things that were,
I call them transition moments where something happened for you or to you,
or what's going on in the world.
And it kind of prompted you and pushed you in a certain direction where it kind
of changed the scope out of your life in a very, very good way.
Even though some of those things may not have been the best things that were
occurring during that time.

(13:21):
It was just so fascinating how, I do have a question though.
It's so fascinating how you travel through the Middle East back then,
again, that was another parallel where it's like, I always take for granted
how easy it is to get through customs now compared to what it was like back in the day.
Just to study abroad in Beijing, China, it was again, so much paperwork waiting
in line for hours, like no iPhone, no music, just sitting in line with your thought.

(13:45):
It's just so different how I traveled and how we traveled then versus now.
But like, can you just say more about the Middle East and maybe what is something
that you saw that you experienced while you were traveling through that part
of the world, that was very eyeopening for you.
And like, and how would you encourage people to also to want to travel into the Middle East?
Like what are some things that we may be missing out on that we don't necessarily

(14:06):
know a lot about in that region, in that part of the world?
Yeah, sure. So, I mean, I can completely relate to what you were saying about
having to produce these unbelievable mountains of documentation just to do anything.
Like the first time that I moved out to Dubai, I remember just trying to open
up a bank account was such, it was so arduous.

(14:27):
I mean, the paperwork I had to have, it was so overwhelming actually,
because it was like, this is crazy. I've never had to do anything like this before.
But what I think, I've always loved the Middle East because it's always,
for right or wrong, it's always been perceived as exotic.
And I don't like that word, but that's always kind of been the way that it's

(14:49):
been perceived to everybody.
And then you had in the early 2000s, which I think politically was a really
interesting period of time because you had obviously 9-11 and then you had the direct impact.
And that was very much centered around the Middle East. And you had so many people having these.
Preconceived notions as to what the middle east was that
it was a barbaric place that it was you know like it

(15:11):
was a war zone and it's just really not
true i mean i think my favorite
thing about the middle east is the people i think
it was the the first experience that i had had abroad
and i mean at that point i had also traveled quite a
lot as well i've always been quite fortunate that i've
always been able to travel and i've always wanted to travel so i've always made

(15:33):
it a priority but I think the Middle East was
one of the first places where I think people were just genuinely
warm and genuinely welcoming because like
somewhere like Thailand for example and it's going to sound controversial because
I know you love Thailand but I always found that I think people were being really
nice to me because they wanted my money and I really had that feeling and that

(15:54):
came across really strongly whereas I've I never had that when I traveled throughout
the the Middle East. It was just very genuine. It was very warm.
People would invite you into their homes and you didn't even really know them,
but they would invite you to dine with their family or.
They would introduce you to all of their friends. And it was,
it has such a, such a big expatriate community that it's really easy to make friends.

(16:19):
And I think what was really interesting, because I was listening to one of your
other podcasts the other day, and you were talking about how,
when you were living abroad, that you had this transient nature where people would come and go,
and it almost made you a little bit cold because you couldn't really have those
relationships with people because they would just leave after maybe one year or two or three years.

(16:40):
Whereas I had a completely different experience, which is so unlike Dubai,
because Dubai, again, is a very transient place.
People come for a very small period of time, they make their money or they enjoy
the lifestyle that it has, because it does have a very lovely lifestyle that,
yeah, it's a really nice place to live.
But you do have a lot of transiency, especially with people

(17:00):
but I think I became very lucky because the group
of friends that I made and they really are lifelong friends
we were still in contact daily I think
95% of them had either like
been born there or they moved there at a very young age and
they've gone to high school they've all known each other for a very
long time and I was very lucky that I was able to come into

(17:21):
this circle of friends and then we were able to expand that to other
expatriates that had kind of been living in Dubai for quite a long time but
had no interest in leaving so I ended up being surrounded
by a lot of people that had just been there for a very long
time they weren't going anywhere so I was able to really
relax and know that my circle of friends I
think at one point we had a circle of like 16 it was quite a large

(17:41):
group we were very very close and we would do everything together every weekend
we would go to a new bar that was opening or a new restaurant or we would do
like a brunch because that's a really big thing on on the Fridays and so I was
able to like completely relax in that in that environment and i think it all
of it comes back to just that warm and welcoming.
Persona that i just think so many people just don't see or they they can't have

(18:05):
that experience because so many people are scared to go,
And I really try to encourage people to go to the Middle East because it really is fascinating.
You know, and everything you said just makes so much sense. Again,
there's so many parallels here, guys.
And I have so many questions, right? There's so many things coming from that.
But it's just so interesting the way that you described it.
I can really and truly and deeply relate to it.

(18:27):
And like one of the things that I wanted to ask was, so here's the example that I always give.
I say for me, I grew up in Chicago, right? It was a big city.
I played basketball. A lot of things were indoors. I didn't know how to swim, any of those things.
And before I ventured out and went to different places around the world,
specifically Asia, when people would ask me, oh, do you want to go camping and

(18:48):
do you like the outdoors?
My response was always no, like I don't like doing that.
And then, you know, as I got older, I realized I didn't like doing that because
I had never done it. So it was just a gut shot reaction, if you will,
to something I just had no idea about.
So it was very easy to be negative and say, no, I don't like that because I
knew what I liked. In reality, I didn't really know what I liked because I hadn't
tried enough things to really, in my opinion, understand what truly brought me joy and made me happy.

(19:13):
So now for people who follow me on Instagram and like know me and know my travel
stories, when I travel, I spend a lot of time outdoors.
Now, I don't like the heat. I don't like being outside.
I don't I don't say like. I don't enjoy those as much as I enjoy other things
is a better way to frame it.
But honestly, hiking is not one of my passions.
Like I truly love being around the water in the water, even though I'm not the

(19:34):
best swimmer I learned to swim since I've given myself the opportunity to experience
those things in different places around the world.
So my question is what passions have you developed from all of your travel experiences
that have really stuck with you today and that you're going to continue doing moving forward as well?
I would, I think I would say that some of the passions that I've really developed

(19:56):
and it came not so much from the actual travel experience itself,
although that was very much kind of like part of my experiences,
but it actually came more from when I started doing travel design for other
people, which is where these kind of passions came from.
The first one would be travel psychology. I became,
came and that was thanks to my old

(20:18):
boss at my previous company when
I first came to London he opened my
eyes to the just how incredible travel
psychology really is and it's something that you don't necessarily
think about very often but it just I don't know what it was about it but it
just it really caught me and it was the idea that the pre-trip anticipation

(20:40):
phase before you you go on a trip and it's so true and it's something that I
never really thought about before is actually the happiest period of time of
the entire travel experience.
And I had never really given it much thought, but it makes perfect sense.
And so now whenever I'm talking to people about it, I like to use the analogy
of movies because it goes back to what I studied and I liked films anyway.

(21:01):
But it's always that feeling that when you see a movie trailer,
you are so excited. You can't wait to see it.
Your mind runs with all these possibilities of things that could happen in the
film, things that you're excited about, things that you're hoping are going to happen.
And so your happiness and your dopamine levels are at their highest possible
point because you're just, you have that anticipation, that excitement.

(21:24):
When you actually get there on your trip or when you actually get to the movie
to watch the film, it could go either way.
I mean, like it could be slightly disappointing and it really could not be kind
of what you're expecting.
And I think travel in its nature is quite stressful anyway. And I think people
glamorize travel, which, you know, like rightly so they should,

(21:46):
but at the same time, it can be very stressful.
I mean, I've been robbed in Bangkok. That was very stressful.
And that was, I mean, that was a wild story on its own. I can tell you that
another time. That was quite extreme, but it can be quite stressful.
But on the other side, it could exceed your expectation. And I've had both experiences
where I've traveled somewhere for the first time. One of them was really disappointing.

(22:08):
And I kind of came back and I was like, wow, really not why I was expecting.
And I was actually happier before I left because I hadn't actually got there yet.
And the other one was where I got there and I was like, this exceeds every expectation
I had. And then, so once you kind of have that experience and then come back
again, you have that post travel kind of depression almost.

(22:29):
It's like the holiday blues, they call it, because you've had this experience,
even if it wasn't quite what you expected it to be, you still had that travel experience.
So you were still riding that high, you come back and you don't have anything
to look forward to. So I think it's really important.
Maybe when you come back from a trip to already be thinking about your next
one, because then you can continue to have a never ending release of dopamine

(22:52):
because you're always thinking about where you're going to go next.
So travel psychology for me was a really big passion. And that was very much
thanks to my previous employer.
He really opened my eyes to it. And he was very gracious that he would sit me
down and he would kind of like talk me through things.
And I think he was, he was very much, I mean, he is a travel visionary in his

(23:14):
own right. He's just so interesting to talk to.
And the way he thinks about travel has really helped me to understand travel
in a different light because he's just so creative with it.
And he was the one who's really instilled in me a passion for client experience,
making our clients just have the best possible but personalized experience.

(23:37):
And a lot of that comes from him. the other one i would say
would be like local like local festivals and
like music and things like that because like for
me when i travel i always kind of have a preconceived notion of what i think
i'm going to go to and most of it comes from movies for right or wrong i i just
have this vision of what i'm going to walk into and if i don't get that then

(23:58):
i'm not particularly happy because i'm like hang on where's my bollywood dancing
in the streets like this This wasn't what I was promised.
So I love to find like, you know, like some, something that's happening while
I'm there, whether that's a Rose Festival in Italy,
if it's an opera at Puccini's Lake, for example, just something that's very

(24:21):
local, very kind of event driven, has some tie to music.
I find those two things have really kind of blossomed a passion.
Hmm. No, that, and man, that's the same. Like I,
I love live music and I didn't, I never loved it here in America,
but what, and I also love, I never really experienced it a lot here in America,

(24:42):
but I did every time, you know, you know, there's music everywhere on,
in some places in Asia where there's like music on the streets,
there's live music bands,
like in Taiwan, we had friends that would come and they would start their own bands.
And like, I have, I was like, man, I really love listening to live music.
Like it's something I really enjoy.
It doesn't matter who's singing Well, it matters what they're singing about,
but it doesn't matter who's singing or what the rhythm is or anything.
It's just like, I love a live performance and being in that atmosphere,

(25:05):
and especially in different countries around the world, because there's so much
culture in that room, in the lyrics and the music and the sound.
And it's like, it's really transformative in a lot of ways for me personally.
That's something, a passion that I developed that I didn't even know that I
had. Now concerts, big concerts, I'm still not a big fan of those,
but in small intimate settings, just being able to in a different place somewhere
around the world is always like one of my favorite things to do.

(25:29):
And I actively seek that now when I'm traveling and going to different places.
So is there anywhere, I know you mentioned it earlier, is there anywhere that
you have traveled to that you really have no interest in returning to?
And it doesn't necessarily be because it was bad, because like,
you know what, I got my fix from that place.
It's great. I don't have to return. I can go somewhere else.
I don't know if there's somewhere that I wouldn't necessarily go back to,

(25:51):
because I think everywhere has its charm, regardless of where it is.
And I think you can always rediscover something about a place. But what I do think is,
and it's kind of a change, but it's kind of like in the realm,
I think an overrated travel destination, in my opinion.

(26:13):
One and this is gonna i mean probably get me into trouble into trouble but i
think italy is an overrated destination.
Personally I think it's been romanticized and I
think there are so many other places I
mean it's an amazing place to go to I've been very fortunate I've
been there quite a few times and I have enjoyed every time that
I've been so I think because I've been there I feel like I've already done it

(26:37):
but when I hear like for example if I have someone come to me and say I really
want I really want to go to the Amalfi Coast the reason that they want to go
to the Amalfi Coast is because they've seen it on a movie or a TV show.
But the reality is it actually isn't like that.
And the same with Sicily, for example. We went to Sicily a couple of years ago

(26:58):
and I hadn't seen White Lotus.
I didn't jump on that train when it was super popular.
But Taormina became just, I mean, overwhelmed with tourism because of it.
And so it's, unfortunately, I think it's been slightly ruined because of that.
So even though i would definitely go back
i mean there are some really beautiful parts of italy like i really liked

(27:22):
venice i thought it was that was the kind
of place that i wasn't quite sure what to expect but it
definitely exceeded my expectation but i was definitely disappointed with sicily
and i think it was because it was romanticized so it might be a bit of a cop-out
on the question but i do think it's overrated in my opinion no that no and honestly
that makes complete sense this is something that sophia actually challenged

(27:43):
me on and i still i said I'm still going to ask the question to get everyone else's responses.
But remember, I said Cambodia one time, and I still think Paris,
France, similar to you. I think Paris is just overrated in a lot of ways for me.
I think other places in France are great and you should definitely go there.
But Paris in and of itself, it was completely underwhelming for me,
especially seeing the Mona Lisa and how tiny it was.

(28:05):
But yeah, it's so tiny.
I'm like, I could just look at Google, but still, still very cool thing to see
in real life, I guess, for some people.
But yeah it used to be it was cambodia for me and i was like and then
as you know i just returned from there i'm like oh my god and now i'm
going back in october like it's just every i think giving
if i i feel like i can't i i won't

(28:26):
say that again about another destination unless i actually have revisited once
and maybe even twice so because because like you said there's always
something that you're going to discover but for me it's like paris france
even if i do find new things i don't think i'm going to like them so i'm cool with
not going back to paris sorry christy but like is
there being in the travel space like people ask us questions all

(28:47):
the time right and we and oftentimes well honestly less
than i thought that people would my family would family members
do reach out and access for our travel expertise not my family apparently they
only ask when they're going with me not outside of that which i think is strange
but anyway um what is some travel knowledge that you really enjoy sharing the
most when you are when people are asking you questions or that you just like

(29:08):
offering to kind of inspire people to get out and see the world.
I really love encouraging people to
find something that's very local
in the destination and try and do something around that
now I would usually link that to music because that's just my personal interest
so if I was going somewhere I would try and find if there was a music festival

(29:31):
happening that had like local bands or if there was a wine festival I'm not
a big drinker so that wouldn't necessarily interest me very much but I know
that there are a lot of people that do really appreciate wines and things.
So I would always recommend find something that you would find really interesting
and see if there's an event or something happening in the destination that you're
going to be in during that time that you'll be there,

(29:52):
because it's going to give you a really interesting insight into that destination.
Cause you're going to meet people that you wouldn't necessarily meet.
You're not going to be surrounded by, by other hotel guests,
for example, around you.
So you're, you are going to be around people that, that call that destination home.
And that's going to really help you open up your mind to different experiences

(30:14):
and different thoughts.
I think that's one of my, one of my top things that I love the most about travel
is when you travel somewhere, I mean, even scientifically it's been proven.
I think there was the Hong Kong university had a study that showed that people
that traveled ended up being 80,
I think it was like 82% more creative because if you have to travel and if you

(30:38):
have to step outside of things that you know on a, on a, on a daily basis,
you're actually programming your brain to think more creatively.
So you can come up with solutions that require more out of the box thinking.
And so I love that about travel. It really does challenge you.
So that's probably one of the biggest advices that I give to people when they
go is just to find something that, that is of of interest to you that you can

(31:01):
use as a means to connect to the destination.
It really does change the way that you experience it.
For sure. For sure. Absolutely. And that's one of my, definitely one of the
favorite things that I enjoy doing whenever I go out.
It's really just finding, I think it does come up with travel planning for us
a lot, like with off the beaten path experiences and what we actually can recommend,

(31:22):
which is why it's important to go to places and seek out these experiences.
And I think off the beaten path has kind of been interpreted very differently
to people as well, what they mean when they say off the beaten path,
which I found to be even more fascinating kind of relates to that travel psychology
that you were talking about earlier and how people kind of visualize and see
travel from their own perspective and from their own eyes.

(31:44):
But I do have a question. So what was one place where the culture shock was
extreme or large or very big for you?
And then what is one thing that you'll always remember about that location?
And then on the flip side of that, where is one place that you traveled to that
just really felt like home?
It felt like you just felt super comfortable. You're able to navigate it with ease.

(32:07):
And you just felt complete euphoria. It was just a wonderful experience throughout.
Like throughout so the one i think where i felt complete euphoria and i'm going
to exclude greece because it's no secret i'm a massive greece fan so i'm going
to exclude that one because that would be totally biased.
Actually i had that experience when i when i went

(32:29):
to pokrakov in poland it was
a destination that i i really didn't know a lot about
and we were going only for maybe like i
think it was three nights we were there for i hadn't really
done any research either so i didn't really have any expectation i didn't really
know what i was going to except you do hear that people go there and they do
like bachelor parties and things like that so i think i had a it wasn't a negative

(32:53):
perception but i I definitely had some type of perception in my mind as to where I was going to go.
When I arrived, I was so mind blown. I was so impressed with how much I loved the city itself.
It was so beautiful. It had this really incredible like town square that was,
I mean, it was really historical and they have this underground city at the

(33:17):
same time. That's just fascinating.
But what I was really surprised with was this like coffee shop culture.
And actually one thing that I love more than anything else when I travel is
a coffee shop, a coffee shop or a bakery.
I can sniff out bread anywhere I am. I love bread.
I love bakeries. I can always find a bakery wherever I go, but the coffee shops

(33:38):
were just, they were incredible.
They were really, they were really indie. And I like that type of vibe that
like indie surf kind of, I like that type of like aesthetic and, and kind of appeal.
And there was just so many unique neat coffee shops everywhere that I went and
everyone was just incredibly helpful.
Everyone was so kind. The food was just brilliant. It was great value for money.

(34:00):
It was so easy to walk around. I, it was, it was such a lovely city that when
we were there and again, three days, I mean, really wasn't there for a long time.
Like I came back, I was like, I could totally live there. I could totally live there.
I know exactly where I'm going to live. I know where I'm going to get at my
breakfast in the morning.
I mean, I threw myself into this vision. It was such a pleasant place to be.

(34:22):
So I think that was definitely...
A really like positive experience, a really negative one.
I mean, it wasn't a negative. It was just, I think, I think it's going to be
Thailand when I went to Bangkok for the very first time, because I mean,
I was, I was 21 years old. I had just finished university.
I actually flew to Bangkok the day after my graduation.

(34:43):
I couldn't wait to leave. I was, I was on that backpack. I was gone.
And then I landed, it was a really long flight. It
was at that time it was the longest flight I'd ever had
um it was like 14 hours from London and
that was like that in itself was hard because
I hadn't done it before but when I landed and I

(35:04):
was meeting someone there anyway I was I so I
flew by myself I was meeting someone in Bangkok and when
I landed I didn't really know like what to do where
to go I was really quite like disorientated and it's
a a hectic city i mean there is so much happening
at once and then when i got to cosan road
i just i was so bombarded by

(35:26):
noise and smells and just like
visuals there was just so much happening at one time
i did have i think it was like maybe a
10 minute moment of paralysis where i was like oh my
god this is extreme and i had to kind
of like take 10 minutes and i just kind of like I looked around kind of like
I just had to absorb everything because there was just so much going on at one

(35:48):
time and I just I sat there for about 10 minutes with my backpack on the side
of the road and just absorbed all of it and then after about 10 minutes I was
like okay yeah cool like like I'm in it now I'm in the zone I've got the energy
of the place like I'm kind of there.
But that and like that was the first time I think I'd ever experienced that
culture shock and it really hit me because I just hadn't experienced it before
but then I loved it I loved that feeling where I got somewhere and I was like,

(36:12):
oh, this is so extreme. This is so different.
I love this. And then just kind of absorb as much as I can. But that was the
first time. And it was a bit of an eye opener for sure.
Yeah. Bangkok is, it is, it is, it is, it's a lot going on.
Like even, even coming from like Chicago, big city, Chicago was great.
We get to Bangkok. You're like, Oh my God.
It's like you said, the light, the noise, like random sounds,

(36:33):
the smells, mostly good smells for the most part.
But then there's some alleys where it's, it's not the best smells,
but it is, there's just so much going on that it definitely can.
And I think I had a similar experience where it's kind of like,
I saw it and I just, I really couldn't believe my eyes, but you had to keep moving.
Cause for those of you guys that haven't been to calisthen road it's an extremely busy
road with tons of people and like you kind of have

(36:54):
to move with the crowd like it feels like you're in a concert but not really so
yeah it's i i definitely definitely can understand that but
you did mention greece and this is something that i can't wait
to hear from you because i haven't been to greece i want to
go to greece so many people love and adore greece but
i want to hear from an expert from the expert in my
opinion um in as many ways as you see fit why is

(37:16):
greece not just a great travel destination nation a great
place overall and why should it be on people's must
visit list for places they should venture
to at some point in their lives oh how much time do
you have i could talk about greece but my house come home for me
i i i love greece and i
i was actually quite a late newcomer to greece i think

(37:37):
i i went to greece for the very first time when i was
about okay how old am i and out on 36 maybe like
31 30 i mean it hasn't been
that long and i think a
lot of that was because i was in dubai i was just so it wasn't close
for me whereas like here in england greece is a very popular travel destination
because it's so close but when i got there i just i loved it and like what i

(38:03):
love so much about greece is one the people are exceptionally welcoming i know that
I said that about the UAE, but I honestly.
Greece is the type of place that when I got there for the first time,
I knew people were going to be nice. And I had been to Italy.
So you've kind of had that like Mediterranean hospitality experience.
It didn't compare. It just did not compare to what I received in Greece.

(38:27):
I mean, people will just so openly go out of their way to help you,
even if they don't speak English, which is not that common.
It's a lot of people do speak English in Greece, but you will come across people
that can't speak English and that's absolutely fine.
You know, it's Greece. So they speak Greek, obviously. So it's a lovely language,

(38:48):
and they will just actively go out of the way to try and help you.
And I think the biggest kind of like example I can use is we were in Rhodes
about two years ago when they had these massive wildfires and we were on the
Island when it happened. And my partner is from Rhodes.
So the fire just kind of came out of nowhere and spread really quickly.

(39:12):
The island had no power for about like 12 hours and,
It didn't have any water. And we were just on this island that was burning. And it was extreme.
It was really big fires. They were coming towards us. You could see it very
clearly coming towards you.
But at the time that the power kind of went off, we were at a restaurant.
That's one of our favorite restaurants on the island because it looks out over the sea.

(39:35):
And it's right by a main road, so it's not very relaxing. But it's really beautifully
decorated. It's got cap tie everywhere.
And it's really colorful. And I like a lot of color. I respond to colors very well.
And so, and, but the food is exceptional. It's just such exceptional food.
So we love this place. Anyway, the power goes out and there's quite a few people
there, but it's already getting dark because we had gone there specifically

(39:57):
to watch the sunset and have dinner.
And so at this point, the power has gone off and they are continuing to cook
dinner for us by candlelight using like a gas stove because they didn't want us to not have dinner.
And it was just, and they would continuously come out and ask us if we're okay.
There was no water so they were giving us free bottles of
water and they were just kind of like explaining to us

(40:20):
what was happening and why it was happening and it was
it was so kind and it's it's it's an it's an it's an environment that could
be quite stressful obviously there's a there's a wildfire happening but they
made us feel so reassured and so safe that i will never forget that because
it was so powerful just the the way that they came to us to make sure that we were

(40:41):
okay bearing in mind you know like their houses are in the
line of this thing but their concern was for us and i
think that's such a great summary of greek people they're
just so kind they're so warm the food is exceptional and i think one thing that
i i love to highlight to people that have never been to greece before is there's
so much more than just the islands that's the only thing that people really

(41:03):
think about is like paros and santorini and mykonos i mean it's It's the only
places really people consider, but.
Greece has hundreds of islands and they're
all in little clusters in different areas and they've all
got different personas essentially like some of them are very green and very
hilly some of them are very kind of like just kind of like white rocks essentially

(41:28):
some of them are volcanic some of them I mean like Crete for example is the
largest island in Greece it's huge it's massive.
And so I love to explain to people, there's so much more than just the islands.
You've got mountains, you've got Mount Olympus. I mean, it has so much mythology.
That's so interesting. The history is just to die for.

(41:50):
I mean, you're talking 2,600 years of history that you can see as you walk around
Athens, you're walking past, you know, monuments that they don't have any barriers around them.
They're just there. and I find that so just
incredibly fascinating that you're walking around a city
that has built itself around just this

(42:10):
incredible like empire it's it's
such a it's just such a fascinating destination I can't recommend it enough
for people and actually that wasn't my follow-up question until you already
did it it was like well can you paint a picture for us aesthetically like what
does the landscape of Greece look and feel like you know as you're walking through
the streets because I know for me it's um.

(42:32):
Well yes can that is there anything else you'd like to add
for that particular question before i continue yeah sure
so it really depends where you go like for example athens is
a big city and it's not the prettiest of
places but it definitely has it has
an appeal to it i can't quite explain it but
it just has a vibe there's just something about athens it's

(42:54):
kind of funky it's kind of trendy it's kind of cool but you
walk around and there's like like pieces of art that's being
spray painted on walls that and some of them are beautiful like
really beautiful pieces of street art which
i really like street art i think it's really interesting but it's so
interesting to see that they've got really cool kind of
like rooftop bars that look at the acropolis that i

(43:14):
mean they don't cost you a fortune either which is such
a i really like that about greece they don't
go out of their way to rip you off with things
like a lot of the prices are still all very sensible i really
like that but then if you went to somewhere like thessaloniki for
example which is like north greece it's
a completely different type of vibe it's a it's a student city

(43:36):
it's it's probably like the culinary capital of greece the food there is just
exceptional but it's got some really trendy kind of areas but it's also got
a seafront but then if you went to the islands you're looking out over turquoise
water it's not all like the whitewash that you.
See that's only very specific islands but it's just

(43:57):
every place has a different feel and it's so interesting when you're there because
you get to see so many different things for the first time all the time and
you're like wow this is a different side to Greece that I I not even I've seen
you know like but that's what I love about Greece it's just so interesting yeah
and thank you so much and I think like as you were speaking it.

(44:18):
It did what I've been working and practicing to get better at doing myself and
just listening to other people describe places.
And actually, Christian was the one that inspired me to do this last year when he was on the show.
It was like, how do we activate the senses, right? When you're describing a
place to really make a person as you're talking through it, feel like they're
there with you or really understand the vibe in which you're going for.

(44:40):
And as you were speaking, that's exactly what I got.
Like when you're describing just the overall layout of Greece,
the differences between the places.
Another follow-up question I have is just about the food. How would you describe the food there?
But the importance of just activating senses and also how I remember places
based on what senses are activated when I'm back home, right?
So I think there's a certain smell that I definitely associate with Thailand.

(45:00):
It's like, oh, okay, that smells like an oil that when I was getting a massage
in Bangkok at the hotel, like that. Those are things that really activate my senses.
Like curry, Thai curry has a very distinct smell to me that when I smell,
I'm like, man, it really takes me back to a period of time when I was there.
And when I do go to locations, I do take a moment. I do this and my wife thinks it's kind of weird.

(45:22):
There's sometimes I'll just stop and I'll take five deep breaths when it's something
I want to capture and really log into my memory.
And I take the deep breaths because I want to smell, I want to feel,
I want to hear, I want to be present.
And that's how I am able to then when I return home, reactivate my senses and
kind of go to that place again.
Again, if I'm really feel really good, if I'm having a great time,
if it's a moment where it's like, man, I'm just at the height of happiness,

(45:45):
why not kind of take a time to really just sit in that and remember that and hold on to that.
So then that way, when I need it again, I can revisit it because I took the
time to really and truly be present. But like, how would you describe Greek food?
Like, and what is your favorite Greek dish to have when you're there? Oh, oh my God.
I love Greek food. I honestly think it's one of the most underrated food,

(46:05):
like culinary dishes, essentially, that you can get because so many people talk
about Italian food and it's so kind of like well-known worldwide,
but there's something so...
Great about greek cuisine i think the one
thing that i will say about greek cuisine and i think greeks will agree
with me it's not the prettiest looking food like it's

(46:26):
not aesthetically pleasing but the
taste is just incredible i love that like
greek food is really fresh like you
can really especially when you're in greece because like one
thing that i love about greeks in greece is they
take such pride in their food and they really take
pride in the ingredients that they use in food and that's

(46:47):
something that i think has been lost in in some other destinations but
that's something it's very prevalent in greece and so when
you and and like this is this is such a good
example i don't like tomatoes it's just not a fruit that i like i like them
cooked but i don't like them raw but i will eat them yeah but i will eat them
in greece because they they just taste different they taste so fresh they're

(47:09):
really flavorful they are just it's i think it's just that word fresh.
Comes to mind so often so i love
like sublaki for example it's just it's it's
such a staple but it's amazing i love
these little things called luka mothers which are these like little
round dough balls they're so good smothered in honey my favorite my absolute

(47:32):
favorite and i it's one of the first things i order when i land is saganaki
which is like fried cheese and it's just i love it i love it to death there's
just there's so much greek food that i just it's so nice and.
There's so many like dishes that like depending
on what you're feeling if if it's kind of cold because like
up north it snows and like it's something people don't know

(47:55):
but it snows in greece up north especially in the winter it
has a has a snow resort that you
can go to that's really nice and things like that so
if it's cold it has food that is perfect
for cold weather like like gemista for
example which is like stuffed peppers and they're
amazing so like there's loads of soups which are really really

(48:16):
nice and they're like the watery soups like the brothy ones but then
if it's really hot you have like spanikopita pie
which is so famous you've got frappe which
is an absolute must when you're there and yeah
i love that about greece is that like depending on what you're
in the mood for there's always something to match what you're looking for
and it's fresh that is oh man oh my

(48:38):
goodness that's amazing yeah see and it is less
down about almost like it because okay my wife was so my wife was taiwanese
and we were in vietnam we just in vietnam and like we were just we get off the
airplane that guy's like hey yeah it's hungry we can go to this place really
quick and again we we eat fun america i've been fun taiwan i've been fun other
asian countries like i've been to vietnam before but you know.

(49:00):
And my wife had, and then we had this right. We drove maybe 20 minutes from
the airport. It's very local place off the side of the road.
It was the best I'd ever had in my life. And it was like, I'll never forget
the taste of it because I've never had it.
I've had so many times and it's never tasted exactly like that.
But as well, like again, the, the, the, the sensory activation of when you're in places, right.

(49:21):
And just really holding onto that and how it really can take you back to that place.
Now, and I can describe exactly what that meal tasted like, what it looked like,
what what the ingredients were, because again, I was present in that moment.
It's just, there's just, there's just nothing like it. And again,
I cannot wait to go to Greece. I haven't been there. I really, really want to go.
I know right now, like I'm trying to just make sure, like one of my biggest

(49:43):
goals is to be like a true travel expert for Asia.
So I'm really just diving into that and leaning more into that because like,
again, I've lived there for a long time and I really want to,
I just want to encourage and inspire as many people as I can to go and like really be able
to speak from the heart about everything that you know i wherever i send
people but yeah greece is definitely up there as
a place that i want to go for my own travel pleasure not

(50:05):
and and not just for work because everyone that's gone that's come back has
loved it and i'm just really excited to to go there with all of your recommendations
as well dean i can't wait for you to go to greece i would i would definitely
help you when you go let me know and i'll tell you where to go, what to do, how to do it.
Excited. So at this stage in your life, are you more of a backpacker or are

(50:27):
you more on the luxury travel side?
You know, I actually like both. I really like, I really like the backpacker
side of things because I love just kind of like getting, like rolling my sleeves
up and just kind of getting dirty and just getting out in there and just doing it.
I like that side of backpack traveling. I think it's, I think it's something
that everyone should experience at some point in, in some degree,

(50:50):
because I think by backpacking and not having a truly luxury experience.
You can just appreciate things a little bit differently.
I think one thing and I love luxury travel
I've been I mean I've been doing luxury travel now for quite
a long time I'm really showing my age but I think I've
been doing it since about 22 I'm now 36 so quite
a while I love luxury travel I love.

(51:13):
It dearly but when you do luxury travel I do think
there is an element where you are protected from the
destinations that you go to like there is an element of
protection that surrounds you because you're in a luxury resort you're going
to luxury restaurants there are specific types of clientele
that you're going to be surrounded by throughout most of your trip
if you're backpacking you are really deep into

(51:35):
that place you're deep with the people you're really
just kind of like discovering how the place ticks and
maybe like trying to find something
really cheap to eat on the go it's part of
the adventure so I really like that aspect of travel i
think it really helps you discover a destination
however i do really enjoy

(51:57):
the luxury side of travel especially when
it comes to the accommodation because i think the
accommodation especially like luxury hotels can really
just immerse you in a destination in a
completely different way so for example recently we went to we
went to jordan and we ended the trip
at the Dead Sea in the

(52:19):
Kempinski Hotel it was just incredible of the
entire trip that is one of the hotels
that I think back to with such incredible
memories because we were it was kind of like
towards the end of our trip and it was a really long trip it was
tiring it was kind of a mix of the backpacker because we
were sitting in cars for like eight hours driving through desert I.

(52:42):
Mean it was and then like getting out and it was so hot and.
Like some we stayed in like a 10 kind of thing like.
It was that there was that element of the backpack but when
we reached the end of our trip and we ended it at the.
Campinski and we were looking out over the dead sea and they
had a dj playing live music by the pool with an affinity and the sun going down

(53:03):
i mean it really was an incredible way to end the trip and so whenever i think
about jordan i instantly think about the campinski at the dead sea because it was just like wow but,
It's so like, I love doing trips like that, like mixing up the,
the, the backpacker with the luxury, because even from a travel psychology perspective,

(53:24):
there's this notion that if you have a challenge that you are rewarded by your
travel experience is actually elevated because you've had to endure something like a very hard,
strenuous walk up a mountain, for example, which I did in Thailand and almost killed myself.
But when you get to the top and you have a picnic surprise waiting for you the reward of that.

(53:50):
Is such a huge dopamine hit because you've
had to go through the challenge to get there and i think by
mixing up backpacker with luxury if you can mix those
two in an experience while you're traveling it's such
a higher reward because essentially you've kind of earned it
you know like you've already trepped through you pull the leeches off
your legs and then you get somewhere and then you're

(54:11):
like oh wow this is luxury now and so yeah like
that's what i would always encourage someone to do the mix
of the both oh my god guys we're gonna have a travel psychology
podcast with dean next because he's been
dropping gems all day and it just i wow like
i have wow like yes wow thing oh
my goodness sorry i i know we're we're almost at time

(54:32):
and that's just then there's so many more quests i have just with that
one like thank you dean that was
yes i agree with everything absolutely that's just
wow like wow yeah because i i wouldn't have
even like i mean yeah like the
travel psychology behind like i used to get i just come back from
a trip where i stayed at a very similar and it's like i'm looking at my wife's

(54:54):
reaction instead of mine and she was just like it was just again that euphoria
she was like oh my we got to the capella in hanoi and she's like oh my like
she's just oh from the hotel we came from to that one it was just like,
wow. And she just felt so happy.
And then it made, like you said, we literally climbed over 500 steps sweating.
It was just a grueling, grueling three to five days before that.

(55:16):
And then to get there, it was that exact feeling.
And it's just like, I definitely want to dive into like other elements of travel
psychology that, you know, um, at some point and just like figure out how it
connects to, cause I'm sure, I mean, I know it connects to so many things,
like how you design a proper itinerary, um, how to set things up.
Um, where should you start? where should you finish it connects to all of that
and it really can make for a very different experience when uh when you present

(55:39):
it to someone you can explain it to them and say like hey you're gonna feel
it like it's just so much i'm sorry i rambled but so much came from that and like wow,
Wow. Well, I'm happy to answer any questions. I'm happy to do anything you need me to do.
That's just crazy. I know you guys are jealous right now that you don't work with Dane. Ha, I do.

(56:00):
I do have other, I do want to get, I mean, all right, let me,
let me keep going before I, before I, before I go down that rabbit hole.
So who, and when you get to a new destination, right, what is something that you prefer to do?
Like your very first type of experience that you like to have and then the other
side of that is like when you leave a destination what is something that you

(56:21):
always make sure that you do or you always try to do before you leave.
Good questions when i arrive in a destination for the very first time i love
to kind of orientate myself as to where i am a little bit like what happened
on like kosan road i like to just take
some time and just really absorb where I'm at kind of absorb the vibe.

(56:45):
I'm really into like energy and vibes and stuff anyway, but I like to just absorb
the, the, like the general vibe of where I am because I find that if I can kind
of match that, like the rhythm of the city that I'm in.
Or if I can match the rhythm of wherever I am, I
can just kind of like embrace myself into it a lot easier because
I've kind of like adjusted myself to match the

(57:07):
frequency that everything else is on so I love to
take a little bit of time and I actually like to do
it by myself as well I like because I like my
own company sometimes and I like to just
kind of like sit and just like sit in silence or
like put some music on because I that helps me kind of just kind
of zone out a little bit and so

(57:28):
I I really like to do that and then
I love to explore like as much as.
I can I'm not the type of person who enjoys going
to a destination and just kind of sitting on a beach and not
doing anything I love getting out there and just walking around
and I will walk around all day and just happily walk
through the streets and not be doing anything I'm just like

(57:49):
exploring I'm like looking around looking at what
people are doing I love people watching as well so that's a really big
aspect of one of the first things that I
do and when I leave we have this
little tradition where we will always find a
fridge magnet and we will always bring a fridge
magnet home and we put it on our fridge so our fridge has

(58:10):
like from ceiling to bottom on the side of our fridge that we see as we walk
into the kitchen full of fridge magnets so before we leave a destination we
always grab one so that's kind of like what that's always something that we
have to do before we leave is grab a fridge magnet.
Yeah. And like, I, I really liked that.

(58:31):
I used to, when I, when I was living in Taiwan, because I was so far away from
family and I, and I, and I was traveling to maybe five or six countries,
like a year, I would, whenever I went somewhere, like I would always send a postcard back home.
So I wanted to, I'd climb out, I miss you guys. So I would just stop in a place, grab a postcard.
And I didn't realize at the time, and it wasn't until I continuously did it
where I was like, well, it's not just grab a postcard and send it.

(58:53):
I had to grab a postcard, go to the post office. like it
was a very local experience trying to like having to figure that out i have to
ask a lot of people questions because it's not that easy to find a
stamp um in some places um also it's very expensive to
send us to send a postcard from the vatican guy it's like ten dollars where
it was back then it's crazy they charge a crazy amount of money but and i would
do that but for me like when i first get to a place i always love this i say

(59:14):
your first meal i do first meal last meal like my first meal is going to be
a good meal and good like i want it to be something that's well-researched, that's local,
that's a little bit more expensive than what I would probably eat for the remainder of the trip.
Like not, not super costly, but like mid, like mid-level expensive.
And then also my, my last meal, because I said, I want it when I get to a place,
like usually it's hard, but I want my first impression of, I want my first experience

(59:37):
to just be something that is filling literally, right.
I want to be full so that when I'm not, I'm not hangry, I'm not,
I'm not questioning anything like I can, oh, and I want to get all the flavors
of the place when I get there. So I want to do the research on that.
And the same Same thing when I leave, I want to leave with a good taste in my mouth, right?
So it's all these, I don't know if that's travel psychology,
but it's just like how I think in my mind.
It's like, I want to arrive and I want to be full. I want to be full of energy, full of food.

(01:00:00):
Literally when I leave, I want to leave with a good taste in my mouth.
And that's something I recommend people always do. I say your first meal should be great.
Your last meal should be great. Put time into those because it'll help you when
you get there to help you when you leave.
And it's so hard to find a good place to eat.
Like I that's one of the things about traveling that
I find quite stressful is trying to find somewhere really good

(01:00:21):
because there's that really true saying that life's too short for a bad meal
and that is so important when you're traveling because you only have so many
chances to kind of like have a great meal and so when you get it wrong it really
puts a sour taste on the rest of that evening it really does and like and that's and that's you know.

(01:00:42):
That's why I'm not a big fan of all inclusives. I don't like all inclusive resorts
because the food's never good. But yeah, that is extremely difficult.
But at the same time, the best meals I ever had, even in Italy,
when I was there, we were just walking in an alley and it was down a hill.
It looked like a hobbit hole, but it was a very local family and they just had their own restaurant.

(01:01:04):
We walked in. It was the best meal we had the entire trip.
Like in thailand walking down random alleys and just
finding places that look good that had a fan these were
some of the best meals we had now not all meals turned out like
that as to your point but yeah it's definitely like food
is important and the older i get like i think when i was younger i
didn't care as much um but the older i get i'm
like you know what no like i need i need to have a good meal it

(01:01:26):
does change how i feel about the rest of my day as you said um
and it is very very important so like who
in the travis in the travel space has been has been your
biggest inspiration at this point so this
is going to sound very corny but i would say my aunt
because my aunt worked in travel and she's worked
in travel for a very very long time she started at the holiday inn in london

(01:01:52):
worked and and has just worked her way up throughout her entire career and like
for me i think watching i always have these kind of like images of when i was living at my parents'
house, I must've been quite young, so maybe like 12 or so,
I would see her coming back from conferences in the US and she would always be going back to Dubai,

(01:02:14):
but she would always stop in London on the way.
And I would just be hearing her stories and just kind of like the stress of, of like the,
things that she was going through and like some things that she's done are just so incredible.
Like she was, she was one of the, like the people that launched cruising in the middle East.
She was, I believe the first woman to do business in Saudi Arabia from outside Saudi.

(01:02:39):
Like we have a news article about it. My mom still has it at home.
We're all very proud, but it was, it's just to see her doing what she's done
in life, in travel, in the Middle East.
She has been such an inspiration for me.
And when I lived in Dubai, obviously she was there as well. I lived with her

(01:03:00):
for five years. I mean, we were exceptionally close.
Me, my auntie, my uncle, my cousin, we're very, very close.
And I was very lucky that she was able to be a mentor.
I mean, she really did teach me about good management, good people management,
how to look after your team, how to help people to thrive.
And she has this great saying that I love. I think the saying goes.

(01:03:23):
If when the team does well, it's a joint effort.
It's not like, it's not my victory. It's a team victory.
And I loved that. It was really, it was just brilliant.
And she had this other there's a favorite saying when we
were doing because we've always worked in travel together she would
say we're selling dreams not nightmares and it

(01:03:44):
just used to make me laugh so much but she
also had and this is one that she has like she's a gold of just little quotes
and stuff like that she's brilliant but she had this this one that has just
always kind of stuck in my mind which is we're selling travel we're not selling
life insurance it shouldn't it's not the end of the world.

(01:04:06):
If something goes wrong, it's not the end of the world.
And that has been so poignant that I think about it all the time.
If I'm having a bad day at work, I will think to myself, it's travel. It's supposed to be fun.
It's not supposed to be, you know, like we're not curing cancer.
We're not, you know, like doing surgery.
It's travel. It should be fun. And that really helps me kind of keep a clear mind.

(01:04:27):
So like for me, she has been a huge, huge inspiration.
She's just been she is the reason why i am where i am today and so yeah for
me she's a huge inspiration,
that's so great oh my god family like that's
yeah that's just amazing and her her her quotes and gems
are going on my wall thank you in advance yeah those are just amazing and yes

(01:04:52):
you are absolutely correct sometimes it is stressful planning for other people
at times but again like that is very reassuring to just you know what it's it's
it's it's just a trip like it's It may be a very expensive trip, but it is just a trip.
And there are a lot of more other important things going on.
So it's okay. Take two deep breaths and you will get through it. Absolutely.

(01:05:12):
So I know you kind of answered this question earlier. So I've been thinking
about how to rephrase it because I know we're definitely coming up on time here.
So we talked about where your podcast is, because the question is,
if you had a travel podcast, what would you talk about and why?
But I want to challenge you a little bit. Can you give me the first 15 to 30
seconds of your podcast? Like, how would you open it? What would you say?

(01:05:35):
Just go off. You can take a few seconds to think about it, but just go off the
top of your head. Like, how would you?
Because honestly, how I start my podcast, I have no idea where it came from.
I think I just kind of did it one day and I was like, oh, that sounds cool.
Let's go with it. And it wasn't my very first podcast. podcast sounded nothing
like this so crazy how it evolved but anyway how would you first 10 to 30 seconds
how would you open your podcast if you had one what would it sound like what would you.

(01:05:58):
I'd probably open it with something like hi because it's just something that i do this very,
elongated hi i don't know where it comes from just what i do
so i'd probably do something like hi welcome to
like whatever it is going to be called today's episode
we are going to be jumping into video games
adventure and travel how can

(01:06:19):
you tie them all in together and where can
you go that is inspired by video games
for example if i wanted to go to lara croft
and do a tomb raider experience where would i go
we're going to be answering all of this and more later in
the episode so stay with us hey you have
that down i'm i'm not saying you should start a podcast tomorrow but

(01:06:41):
i'm saying you should start a podcast tomorrow that what much
better than mine oh my god guys if
i have a new opening if i have a new opening tomorrow just understand that it
was inspired by dean that was amazing oh my goodness please please please start
your podcast um because also that topic like who what that's so good like i

(01:07:02):
actually do want to do that wouldn't that be so so interesting. I love games.
I love them. I think that one of the things where my passion for travel comes
from is one, fantasy books.
I love fantasy books and so much of them is about traveling and new places and
things like that but the other one is video games and it's games like Uncharted where you're.

(01:07:25):
Exploring tombs and you're in like catmandu and
just like all these kind of things so i've always wanted
to have travel experiences in places
that i've played in video games and i've had a
really hard time being able to do that and i
was thinking to myself yeah that actually could
be a thing like if i wanted to have that type of experience where would i

(01:07:47):
go i've been thinking about it for a while that's so
cool yeah i'm sure i'm not sure anyone's talking about
that either they're like that's definitely something that's a
huge market like yes you know how many video gamers
we could send to places around the world oh my
goodness throwing game of thrones in there a little
bit like a video yeah league of legends well

(01:08:08):
dean it's been an absolute pleasure do you have is anything else you'd like
to mention or talk about or do you have any questions for me before we wrap
up here today on our show no i just wanted to say that i've been looking forward
this for a really long time and I feel very honored to be here.
So I really appreciate you asking me to join. Thank you so much.

(01:08:29):
If you ever want me to come back, I will come back anytime.
Dude, I have so many travel psychology questions. You just, you have no idea.
Every time you talk, I was like, oh my God, like eye-opening every time.
But it is truly, truly my honor, Dane. It has been, again, just very,
very excited about this. Thank you so much for saying yes.
It's just been such a great time talking with you today. Like I can literally talk to you for hours.

(01:08:52):
I just cannot say thank you enough. It's been an amazing conversation.
Again, it's truly an honor, not just to have you on the podcast today,
but going forever, guys.
I love Dean. If you guys don't know that already, he is a truly amazing person.
So thank you so much for joining me today. I truly, truly appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much. And I look forward, I'm so excited that we get to work together on an everyday basis.

(01:09:13):
It's one of the highlights of my day hearing your voice in the morning. So thanks for having me.
Thanks for joining, Dean. And thank you everyone for tuning in to yet another
episode of the Black Expat Podcast.
In case you ever noticed, I work with amazing people.
You should be jealous. But of course, make sure you guys like,
share, subscribe to this podcast and keep coming with the questions in my inbox

(01:09:34):
that I will follow up with people who have been on the show about.
I really appreciate and like them.
Some of them are a little hard, not going to lie. And some of them require people to join the show again.
So if you have any questions for Dean, please send them along to me and I will
make sure that we follow up with him when he's on the show again.
Thank you, Dean, one more time for joining us today. My name is Carl,
the Black Expat. We're out of here.