May 19, 2025 • 39 mins
Have you ever wondered what separates consistently successful hunters from those who struggle to fill tags year after year? In this illuminating episode, Aaron and Dave dive into the mindset and systematic approach needed to grow as a hunter throughout your lifetime.
The conversation centers around the transformative power of structured goal-setting using the SMART methodology (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, Timely) and how this approach creates focus and clarity in your hunting preparation. The hosts introduce their proven PIE framework—Prep, Implement, Evaluate—which provides a systematic way to develop specific hunting skills from weapon proficiency to scouting and animal behavior knowledge.
What truly separates this episode from typical hunting advice is the emphasis on developing "mental muscle memory" for evaluation. Top-tier hunters naturally analyze every aspect of their hunts, considering what worked, what didn't, and why. Rather than blaming bad luck, they ask pointed questions about their approach, equipment choices, stand placement, and countless other variables.
Dave shares powerful insights about the value of mentorship through his relationship with an experienced hunter nicknamed "Smokey," whose advice to "understand why animals do what they do" became a guiding principle in Dave's hunting philosophy. Whether you're a seasoned veteran or just starting out, you'll find practical strategies to elevate your hunting skills and increase your success rates in the field.
Ready to transform your approach to hunting? Subscribe now and join us for more insights that will help you become the hunter you've always wanted to be!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron and I'm Dave.
This week we're going to talkabout growing in your hunt, so
the process of just becoming abetter hunter year after year.
I know we've done building oneyear off the next.
That's specifically related toyour sets, but this is more.
(00:22):
Just how do you become a betteroverall hunter is what we're
going to be looking at here.
So one of the things that we dowith and this is more of an kind
of an in-season thing is wecreate goals with the coaching
and SMART goals simple,measurable, achievable,
(00:43):
realistic and timely.
And basically that's just.
If you want to write out yourgoal, the more specific you are,
the more likely you are toactually achieve your goal.
And so it's just who, what,when, where and how.
We write those out and answerthose questions who I will, what
(01:03):
harvest day, whatever myparticular trophy is that year,
whether I want a specific buckor I just it's just.
I want a mature buck, whenduring you know, say, muzzle
loader or archery, or wheneverseason, where one of my sets and
how, using my black tail coachskills from the classes.
(01:28):
And then we break down thegoals in different areas, the
development areas, intosomething we call PI prep,
implement and evaluate.
So prep is basically what do Ineed to if I'm going to
implement something?
What do I need to do to?
What do I need to buy orresearch to work towards this
(01:53):
goal?
Implement is what you'reactually doing, so and then
evaluate is evaluation.
So, for instance, you'relocating We'll use that as an
example.
So prep I need to buy asubscription to Onyx or
HuntStand.
Implement spend an hour lookingover my hunting area, looking
(02:16):
for where I think potential,good habitat, good edges are
places.
I want to put boots on theground.
You know, second part of thatwould be go, put boots on the
ground and then you evaluate.
You know, did what I see on theapp match what I saw on the
ground?
And is what I saw on the groundgoing to work for my season?
(02:37):
And if not, we start thatprocess all over again.
We do a little more e-scouting,a little more boots on the
ground.
We evaluate Four, locating, andit can be, you know, and it's
kind of a skill development plan.
So it's about specific skillsor specific areas of the hunt
when you're prepping for nextyear.
(03:00):
So, with your weapon, locating,scouting, you know just
equipment, maybe learning how touse a new piece of equipment,
like you wouldn't buy a treestand and just walk out in the
woods the day before you'regoing to go hunting and put it
up.
You'd practice shooting fromthat and going up into it, you
(03:20):
know, during the summer, ideally, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Ideally, ideally, yes , and going up into it, you know
, during the summer.
Ideally, yes, yes, ideally yes.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So that's just something that we that is a very
integral part of our coachingand that is to help guys be
focused on what they need to doto get ready for their season
and it helps grow you inmanaging your year, Because
hunting is kind of a year-roundsport?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely, at least, if you
want to be successful at it yearafter year.
Yes, you'll find that the guysthat are are thinking about
hunting at least 11 months outof the year.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, they'll take Christmas off.
Yeah, because their spouses andfamilies demanded it.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Exactly, yeah, because our spouses and families
demanded it Exactly exactly.
But you know, it's funny thatyou're bringing this up in this
way because, fresh off of bootcamp and doing our
one-day-in-person classes andour online courses and all that
stuff, we try and implement thisinto part of the program in the
sense that when we get to thisportion of the class and or boot
(04:27):
camp or whatever, you can justsee the guys look at it like
what.
This is kind of odd.
Trying to.
it feels like school you knowwhat I mean.
But inevitably we'll get guyscoming up afterwards going doing
it this way, adding thatstructure with the goal setting
and all that stuff, it makes itso much easier for guys to
(04:47):
achieve their goals.
And I mean it's something thatyou do on a daily basis.
You just don't write it down.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
You know when you get up and what do you want to
achieve.
You know when I go on a jobsite.
What do I need to get donetoday?
What is my overall goal for theweek?
What is my overall goal for themonth?
As far as this project goes,the difference is is that it is
either being written down andgiven to you, or you're writing
it down and trying to accomplishit.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
You know what I mean.
And so when you add structureto this, you will find that
several things will happen.
Number one you justinstinctively start evaluating
every hunt and your season,because you've already placed
this goal down on paper andthat's always going to be in the
back of your mind going okay,that's going to be one of the
(05:35):
drivers to this season.
What do I need to achieve?
Why?
How am I going to achieve it?
You know what are like.
You're saying action, stepsthat I'm going to take, and all
this and at the same time, youknow you start evaluating not
just your season or your hunt,but you find yourself evaluating
everything.
So why didn't I get that?
Was it my weapon?
Do I need to upgrade this?
Is it my camo?
Is it you know?
(05:57):
Do I not have a piece ofequipment that I gear, that I
think I need, or is it that?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
I have too much gear should have.
Should I have gone five feethigher on with the ladder stand?
Am I trying to?
Speaker 3 (06:07):
take too much in.
You know I'm getting all hotand sweaty.
Can I consolidate?
Can I be more mobile?
You know I mean yeah, justthings that that a lot of
professional hunters take thetime to do all the time yeah,
you know.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So the part that helps you grow as a hunter,
because it starts training youto where that's like the muscle
memory version of that, yeah, ofjust it's reflexive to consider
everything.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Yeah, mental muscle.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah, after you've done something, you just
consider it Okay and you go overit in your mind and it's not
going over tossing it over andover and and over again to
micromanage or to overthinkthings.
Right, right, and that can bean issue to overthink things.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
There's a lot of guys that do that, yep.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
And that does not help, because you start making
mistakes, because you're notsure when to settle on something
.
So, this, implement, that iswhat you're going to do.
You don't need to overthink it.
You just do that thing Right.
Then you evaluate it.
So then, if you need to changeit, you do, but if you don't,
(07:19):
you got that one thing down andyou don't need to.
Well, maybe I should do, well,maybe I should.
Okay, was that successful?
Yeah, you don't need to doanything else.
Just do that again, right.
You know, if possible and a lotof this came because my
background I've always mentionedthis that I come from a
professional development andcoaching background in education
(07:39):
, and so this was in Asha aswell.
This was our, what we broughtto the table.
Asha did more of the curriculum.
I've done more of the coaching,because that's what I previous
job was professional coaching,and that's a lot of what I
brought to the table with this,this.
(08:07):
And so, before all of that,before you started doing this,
you know how did you create yourgoals, what was your process?
So this is something that we'vekind of, I would say, forced on
you as we've started all this.
Now, you probably did it.
You just didn't do it.
In my verbiage I would say oh,yeah, oh yeah, and, but what did
that look like before westarted the whole Blacktail
Coach?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
So I've always kind of the alpha male I, you know I
grew up in the Longview Kelsoarea and I always tell people
when I was growing up and youknow you'd run into somebody
that you knew hunted or whatnot,your first question wasn't how
you doing or how's the family,it was did you get your elk?
(08:46):
And that's just kind of theatmosphere that I grew up in.
So there was always that drivebeing, you know, kind of the
alpha that you know well, I wantto be successful, I want to be,
and success on many levels,success filling tags, success
being able to, and you know, Ithink a little, a little bit
well, a lot of it's got to dowith ego, you know, being able
(09:07):
to say that no, I got, I got ittwo years in a row, or three
years in a row, or eight yearsin a row, whatever it is you
know and a book buck or a record.
Yeah, you know and you know, asI've gotten older I realized
that that's a for me.
I'm a little embarrassed aboutthat, you know.
Just because you know myself, Ifelt like it was prideful and I
(09:31):
don't want to be that guy.
But you know, part of that justwanting to be successful, part
of it is wanting to beat.
That I make it personal when Ifind a buck and everything.
It's like no, I want to beatand that's why I name him,
that's why we, because I want tomake it personal.
(09:52):
I want to beat Clooney in hisown home.
I want to go out there, I wantto put in the effort, I want to
play this chess match with himand I want to beat him in his
own home.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
So, and going into season, you will have the goal
of I so, and going into season,you will have the goal of I want
to harvest Clooney, or I wantto harvest Hightower, or, and
that's kind of it, and thenthere's all of the other things
to get ready for that, Right so,which has become almost second
nature to you.
You know you're out almostevery night shooting your bow.
(10:26):
You know you're out doing thescouting now, and gosh, we were
so busy.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
You're just out doing the scouting now, yeah, I know,
and that's usually Februarywhen I'm getting into it.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
February when we're trying to look around and stuff
Right.
So how did you like early on?
And again, I've known you for30 years now and I've seen your
progression and growth as ahunter, and not necessarily that
we didn't, not that we hadin-depth talks about hunting and
(10:57):
we have you know over all thoseyears because it's just an
interest of yours.
You know I might ask yousomething like that, or you know
you're telling stories,different things like that.
But how did you assess, likewhere you'd tell in stories
different things like that.
But how did you assess whereyou were as a hunter, like
thinking, hey, I suck at this.
(11:19):
Or I hate you, I'm pretty good,but did you have a lot of those
real honest conversations withyourself?
Speaker 3 (11:27):
That's a great question, and and I would have
to say that the biggestinfluence for me was not meme,
you know, it wasn't myself.
It was me looking at otherpeople who were successful and
and seeing you know the animalsthey were getting, whether it be
bulls, bucks, bears, whateverand and saying that's where I
(11:50):
want to be in my hunting career.
So a lot of guys will listen tosomebody who talks a lot.
Well, he seems like he knowswhat he's talking about because
he's got all these stories andhe seems to know all these
places and everything like that.
But I don't see a lot of tagsfilled or I don't.
You know, and you know themeasure of success is different
(12:12):
with everybody, but for me itwas okay.
I wanted to get.
I'd reached a point where Iwanted to get big animals,
record book animals, and so itwas like, well, I know somebody
who does all the time and justabout everything they hunt.
Well, I thought, well, that'swho I need to go talk to.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, so you've talked about the mentorship
aspect of this.
What part I mean.
How did you go about?
You identified somebody Smokey.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Smokey, Cruz Smokey and Annette Cruz.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And you saw them.
But how did you go about kindof developing that friendship
and that where you were able tobe mentored by him?
Speaker 3 (12:54):
so kind of springboarding off what I was
just saying uh-huh there, thereare some people who talk, you
know, and they say it's gonnarain and I won't pick up an
umbrella yeah I won't evenbother looking up, you know, oh,
it's probably not cloudy.
Or even if it was cloudy, it'slike well, he said it was gonna
rain.
Bother looking up, you know, oh, it's probably not cloudy.
Or even if it was cloudy, it'slike, well, he said it was gonna
rain.
Well, probably not, you know hesays that kind of stuff all the
(13:14):
time and and that kind of thing,yeah, yeah and then like but
when smoky, if smoky said it wasgonna rain, well, I'm gonna
take an umbrella with me.
I don't even have to look atthe sky.
You know what I mean I'm?
It's like when he saidsomething I'm gonna listen.
Why?
Because he's got the animals toback up what he's saying uh-huh
and for me, you know, it waslike putting myself.
(13:38):
I was like, hey, do you needsomething done?
You know he's an elderlygentleman now and everything,
and still I don't think that Ihe's forgotten more about
hunting than I know yeah, youknow.
And guys, you know they don'trealize the resources that they
have around them from, from guysthat have put in the time, made
(14:00):
the mistakes and learn fromthem, you know enough to that,
and and these guys, they want toteach you.
You just need to develop afriendship.
Guys, they want to teach you.
You just need to develop afriendship.
And for me it was like you needa lawn mowed, you want your
tree, you know apple tree, youneed those apples picked, you
need that thing pruned.
You want your car washed, youknow what can I?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
do for you.
You need some electrical workdone.
You need some electrical workdone.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
By the way, I never did that under the that, that it
was always above board.
I did it with my license.
But you know it was just stufflike that.
Let me do favors for you andjust let me spend time with you,
and just you know to the pointwhere, like I said, it's almost
interviewing when it comes tohunting and stuff.
Just listening to his huntingstories was entertaining.
(14:43):
Yeah.
You know.
But he would tell me stuff thatI would say, okay, that's what
I need to do, For instance,watching hunting shows.
Yeah.
I don't watch them just forentertainment.
Entertainment's the last thingon the list.
I watch them to glean somethingoff of every hunt.
There's always something youcan learn.
I don't care what they'rehunting.
(15:03):
There's something you can learnfrom every hunt.
Yeah.
You know.
And something else he told meis magazines.
You know you get a magazine,you read it from cover to cover.
Doesn't matter if they'rehunting africa, doesn't matter
if they're hunting new zealand,you know red stag or or what
they're.
Whatever they're going afterdoesn't matter.
What matters is that you lookat how they hunted and you glean
(15:25):
something off of that hunt yeah.
And so now that's what I do.
I mean, you can attest to that.
I've got a stack of bowhuntermagazines and hunt magazines and
I went through them recently.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I was trying to get actually ideas for the podcast,
for episodes, and it was oh well, that's really interesting and
I want to look further into that.
You know, a lot of it was the,the wind, looking at the wind
and learning so much about thatand I think we've done a couple
of episodes just based off of mereading one article, which
(15:56):
turned into a dozen articles.
But yeah it.
it kind of grows.
And you know one point whereyou can learn something from
about one type of hunting.
For something else I rememberAlex talking about he used a
ground blind once to go turkeyhunting.
But he just put up a groundblind and the turkey walked in I
(16:19):
think up to 60 yards, looked atit and turned around and took
off.
And then he went through yourcourse and saw how you brushed
one in and a light bulb went off.
And then he went through yourcourse and saw how you brushed
one in and a light bulb went off.
He's like, oh, that turkey, Ididn't brush it in, so that's
why he didn't come in.
Well, it's turkey hunting andyou did it for deer hunting.
So yeah, there's a lot of stuffthat it just crosses over.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Right, right.
And there's just so muchinformation in those magazines,
not just the stories, but I mean, guys, you know well, how do
you know so much about CWD, howmuch do you know, how come you
know so much about EHD?
And I mean, all of that is justfrom reading it's just from
reading these studies that arein those magazines that go
overlooked, you know, overlooked, you know, and you know Smokey
(17:09):
always told me you know, ifyou're going to hunt something,
you need to know why it doeswhat it does.
Yeah.
So if you want to be good at itand Smokey, smokey is just,
he's the top 3%, he he's thecream that floats to the top, I
don't care where you could dropthem anywhere, and that guy is
going to, he's going to be justfine, Even at his age.
He'll kill something and eat,but it's because he understands
(17:31):
the basic things that driveanimals and he understands
animal behavior and why they dowhat they do and the purpose
behind it, and he exploits that.
And if you're going to be goodat any kind of hunting, that's
what you need to do.
You need to understand whatyou're hunting.
You need to know why they dowhat they do, when they do it,
the purpose behind it, whatdrives them, and you're going to
(17:54):
be able to interpret where youneed to be and when.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And it's funny because it can also cause you
and I did this talking to Alexit can cause you to ask more
questions that you might nothave thought about asking before
the right questions.
When we were talking about theturkey hunting episodes, I was
(18:19):
asking them about, okay, so weknow their sight's incredible
and their hearing's incredibleand I was like, well, what about
their sense of smell?
Oh yeah, they don't really haveone, okay, but see, I knew,
because deer could ask thatquestion.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
It's totally a different animal kingdom.
But yet this one uses smell.
It's its number one line ofdefense.
This one here doesn't even playa role in it.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
I mean again going back to what I said know your
animal what, and then ask theright questions yeah, and but
then it's understanding.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
For me it was like okay, deer, elk, it's the nose
you're beating.
You're trying to beat the nose,well, for turkey, then you're
trying to beat the eyes, or theeyes and the ears, and those
play a factor with deer and elkand everything else.
But it's primarily so trying tounderstand what's the primary
(19:17):
thing right of you know howshould I be going about this?
So again, new to hunting andall I've done is the deer
hunting and I've doneousehunting.
But you don't need to knowanything about hunting to go
grouse hunting.
Yeah, Grouse are like thevillage idiot of the animal
kingdom.
You just walk up behind themand you can most of them.
(19:39):
You just club with a stick andkill them.
Yeah, they are some dumb birds.
So one of the things I wantedto ask you and now that I'm
going into my third year, thishas kind of made me wonder,
because it's also somethingthat's kind of, I would say,
come up for bud is how do youwork through?
The thought of what you want todo contradicts what you've
(20:05):
learned, because it's more of agray area, and I'm asking it
because of this.
So we have the guys who gothrough the class and they think
that they have to do thingsexactly this way.
Where's the nuance?
And so something might kind ofcontradict or feels like it
(20:28):
contradicts what you've said,and I think Bud, because Bud
hunts a little bit differenthabitat than you Now he's still
looking for the thick, nastystuff and outside of there.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
He hunts a little bit more open.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
A little bit more open.
When I got to talking to him Irealized my spot is kind of
closer to his.
But now, being in my third yearand this is one of the things
when you go through somethinglike teaching classes or going
through so I would teachparenting classes and I did
these curriculum-based therapygroups for kids as one of my
(21:07):
years ago, one of my jobs thefirst two times going through
the curriculum it was you stuckto the script, just verbatim,
and you didn't wander off that.
But by the third time you wereso comfortable with it you
realized where you could maybeadd something in Right or maybe
tweak something just a littlebit.
(21:28):
Now you didn't go off script,but you tweaked it because you
were starting to learn thenuance of something.
And I've noticed that going intothis third year I'm comfortable
with the specifics of thesystem and now it's understand
okay.
Well, I can kind of tweak this.
Or realizing that the place I'mhunting is really getting to
(21:56):
the point when you talk abouthabitat.
It's aged out, and mine isn'tquite aged out but it's really
close, but it produced somemonster bucks, right, right, and
so, going back, it's okay, it'saged out technically, I would
(22:17):
say, in that specific spot,which contradicts what you've
taught, right, but I'mcomfortable with contradicting
that to an extent, because Iknow that I'm still surrounded
by that real thick stuff.
I'm just in maybe a one acrepatch.
That's a little thinner thanyou might like.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Right, right and, in all honesty, that doesn't bother
me at all.
I start off every one-dayseminar or boot camp with
telling the guys this is my wayof doing it.
It's not the way.
There's always going to bedifferent ways to accomplish
(22:59):
certain goals and I don't have aproblem with that.
Bud is very good and I give himcredit.
He is probably better atlocating that I am, and well,
he's no problem about it, he is,you know yeah, he's taking it
to another level.
That's just unbelievable.
And that's fine, that's fine,you know, and and he's gonna do
what he thinks is right.
You know, but I kind of so.
(23:21):
If you've been you, you, to anyof my classes, you've heard me
use that fishing lure analogy.
You know all the confidence youhave in your favorite lure.
Yeah.
Well, my favorite lure isn'tyour favorite lure, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
There are times when we do have the same favorite
lure, but a lot of times it'slike you know, I can show you a
spot and you can use the samelure.
It's this color they're hittingon, and all this, you know.
And then you come back and youfish it, or you take that lure
and you go to your spot.
Well, dave says this is whatthey like, and you start using
that lure.
And then you, well, maybe,instead of doing black with
(23:55):
yellow polka dots, maybe theywant black with chartreuse polka
dots.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And so you switch to that, and so you find that.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
okay, that works really good.
Or maybe just one size bigger.
As far as whatever lure you'reusing, something like that,
there's always certain nuancesthat are going to be variables.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
There's going to be some leewayin them.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
There's a human element to it and I remember,
because we've gone on fishingtrips up in Canada and for some
reason we were halibut fishingand I was they would just hit
mine, right, and I was just wewere all using the exact same
worms and everything.
I was just jigging it, maybe alittle different, right, and it
(24:43):
was, and that's it.
It's a human element that youbring to your hunt.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
So it might be something where, yeah, and and
who's to say bud bud's tappedinto something that, that, and I
don't know at all, you knowyeah, yeah, yeah he's just
tapped.
Maybe he he's tapped into theideal travel corridors, he's
been able.
They just stand out to him andand and that's where he's on and
(25:08):
you know, because I'm moretoward the bedding area, he's
more toward travel, travelcorridors and and destination
hunts.
But that's what he enjoys, andso who am I to to tell him it
works?
Speaker 1 (25:20):
yeah, and I think I've fallen into travel
corridors, because when he wasdescribing his habitat and what
he's looking for, I'm like, oh,I have all that stuff Right At
my set and yeah.
So, yeah, there's that nuance.
But thinking about Smokey toldyou something, or the way he did
something, Uh-huh, and at firstyou might have taken that as
(25:42):
gospel.
This is the way I have to do it.
Oh, absolutely yeah, butthere's a certain point of like
have you hit that?
And I'm sure you have where youhit, no, no, I don't have to do
it exactly that way.
Right, Like he'll tree stand.
You said six, eight feet, yeah,and I mean even when he was
younger.
(26:02):
He's older now, but when he wasyounger he didn't go up much
higher than that, did he?
No, he was like 15.
Yeah, but you go up 25.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, and I feel comfortable at 25.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
You know, that's where I feel like.
No, this is where I need to be.
But Smoke, I mean my gosh.
He's 70 some years old, he'sgot a tree stand at six, eight
feet off the ground and he'skilling deer.
Yeah, you know and it's likewell, there are no hard set fast
rules.
I guess you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
There's always going to be a little bit of variation
and whatnot, but initially, likeI said the first couple times,
through it, it's good to havethat base where you feel really
comfortable with that base?
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yeah, good base you can build on, bad base you can't
build on.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah, a good base and actually that's a perfect way
to say it good base to build offof.
So last thing I wanted to cover, and it's kind of a couple of
questions here, and it comesfrom the idea of I had a friend,
former co-worker, who hadgotten his MBA, and there's a
concept that's called fail fast,fail cheap, that if you're
(27:13):
going to try a new idea, try itin a way where you figure out if
it's not going to work.
You figure that out fast beforeyou have a lot of resources
invested, whether it's time ormoney.
So how do you mitigate wastingresources and resources being
time and money when you're maybetrying out something new?
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Boy, I don't know that I'm very good at that, to
be honest with you.
I mean, I'm the kind of guyyeah, I don't quit on things
easy, you know.
Uh-huh.
And I think that that's kind ofmy obsessive, compulsive.
I've got to see things to thefinish.
That's just how I am.
And if I'm going to go a wholeseason where I'm doing something
(27:57):
and it's just it's hurting memore than it's helping me, I
mean if it's glaringly obvious,that's easy to quit.
But if I go a whole season andand at the end of the season I'm
doing my season reflection andI realized, man, that that
particular you know, whatever itis, trait, item, whatever
really was a detriment to myhunt more than it was a help,
(28:20):
then it then then that'sprobably the time that I drop it
.
So I don't know that I'm reallygood at failing fast and
recognizing it.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
So it's kind of also recognizing the point where you
stop pivoting and that's a bigpart of this is oh, I got to
pivot, I got to pivot.
Oh.
We can't bait anymore.
Got to pivot, Got to pivotRight.
So when you stop pivoting andyou just throw in the towel,
it's like okay, this is just abad idea.
Right.
And to walk away, and I imaginein season that would be hard.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
But, maybe giving up on a spot or like not forcing
the issue.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
For me, not so much giving up on a spot as stop
jumping around.
You know, and it's funnybecause I talked about this week
and I talked about allowing youknow, if we sit there and jump
around, if we have multiple setson one herd of deer, then that
deer is manipulating ourbehavior.
I think you know, and that'sthe common thing that I see a
lot of guys doing, and I used todo the same thing and I just
(29:25):
stopped and realized that I'mhurting myself.
I've got to focus, I've got tonarrow it down, I've got to make
myself pick one area and stickwith that, because I think the
common thing is it's like yourkid when you take them fishing
for the first time and they'recasting out the.
You got bobber and worm andthey're casting out the bobber
(29:46):
and worm and they're more outthere for the casting than they
are the catching.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Because they're not into the sitting and waiting for
the bite.
You know, cast it out, hey dad.
I think I need to reel it inand recast it.
Son, we just threw it out there.
It's 20 yards out there, it'sway out there.
Oh dad, it's moving in.
I probably should recast.
Yeah, I think my bait fell offthey're looking for any excuse
to do some, yeah, have some kindof action and whatnot, and I
(30:10):
think that that the society andculture that we live in is
always on the go and so for usto stop and force ourselves to.
This is where it needs to happen.
I need to stop.
If it's going to happen, yeah,and just grind it you know, and
and I think that's a lost art isis the grind, and so I I'm not
(30:33):
necessarily the best guy to ask,I guess, this question because
I tend to lean toward the sidethat you know I'm not giving
enough time, I'm just quittingon it too early and and it's
good and it's bad.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, I think we've seen both extremes a lot and
people have gone through theclass that we've kept in contact
with and we see those guys whojump from spot to spot to spot
to spot and it's like okay, justtry this out.
And it's like okay, just trythis out Because, honestly,
until you start doing the centsdrags consistently for a while,
(31:11):
you really just don't know in aseason Right so to jump before.
That's really the switch hasflipped.
As we say yeah, it doesn't makea whole lot of sense.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Now, that's a great analogy because, every year we
do the same thing.
Yeah, I get a ton of phonecalls.
I get a ton of text message.
What am I doing wrong?
I'm not seeing anything shouldI move?
Speaker 1 (31:32):
should I do this?
Speaker 3 (31:33):
I need to do this, and the whole time I'm like just
relax, stay in your spot, keepdoing what you're doing.
When this, when the switchflips, you'll know.
Well, you know, and it's justagain.
It's continuous text and phonecalls.
I must be doing something wrongor there's no deer in this area
.
And, and you know, justnegativity after negativity,
after negativity, and then allof a sudden, I get a text oh my
(31:56):
gosh yeah I got eight bucks onmy set and it was like I don't
even know where they came fromand it.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
It actually worked for alex this year because he
put up a camera in a differentspot.
Hey, they're daylighting overyou know, over this other spot.
We'll kill your one spot.
Go ahead and move over, and hedidn't.
Two days later, he has you know, curry on the ground, on the
ground but overall that's notnecessarily a great strategy,
but being the first year andvery well first year in a new
(32:27):
spot, you can get skunked justbecause you're learning the new
spot.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh, they'll daylight in this spot, but if you go a
quarter mile over here or atenth of a mile, they won't
daylight.
And that was the same thing.
When Bud got Charlie, he hadmoved like 50 yards down the
trail 40 yards closer to thebedding area and it made a
four-hour difference.
Of him daylighting Correct.
Yeah, it got him to daylightwhen he wouldn't daylight, right
(32:54):
.
So yeah, there are times whereyou know those little tweaks, I
mean, and I did one in between.
Now I didn't do it like one dayI was in one spot and the next
day I was in another.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I kind of moved in between modern and late modern,
because I had a two-week windowwhere I could get in and make
some changes and whatnot.
But see the difference is thatwith Charlie, bud had a full
season prior to that, so he wasa full season of Charlie coming
in just after dark, just afterdark, just after dark, and the
next season was starting.
He's like I can't get him to dothat.
(33:36):
So the next season is when wemoved it.
And then with Alex, I mean hewas going through the coaching,
and so it was every day to everyother day phone calls, text
messages.
Should I do this?
What do you?
Should I do this?
What do you think of this, whatdo you think of that?
Speaker 1 (33:51):
and that's what it's for, I mean that's what we do
the coaching for that's why theyhave our numbers yep, and so it
was.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
It was a lot of okay, this, this and this, all right,
you know, and it and it paidoff you know, getting dialed
into his area and and what thedeer were doing.
And you know, I mean, and tohis, his credit, I mean he was
the one out there doing all ofthe work.
Yeah, you know, we just say,try this, try that.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Well, I would go over here and the reason I would do
that and the reason we want todo this, is this, this and this
but I have to say two out of mytwo out of my three sets I had
to abandon where I originallyset up because I realized that
was just not the right spot.
I think my halfway is the onlyone nailed it right from the
start.
This is the spot I need to bein, this spot I'm going to stay.
(34:38):
The other two RiversideRiverside is a big move to go
find the bedding area and stuff,so it's a big pivot.
Now not giving up on that area,that particular set, but
completely, I know, throwing thetowel on the one place I was at
.
But I've gone two years.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah, I was just going to say that's two seasons
of figuring it out.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah, and realizing, and it takes time.
Yeah, sometimes it takes timethey come in at night for a week
and a half and that's it.
Right.
Okay, well, I don't have that,you know, spotlight tag as you
say so now it's like okay, now I, I know I need to make a more
of a drastic move right, whichthe the area lends itself to
being able to do that, and butyeah, there's a certain point
(35:25):
where and I think a lot of ithas to do with are you learning,
you know?
Are you pivoting because you'relearning?
Speaker 3 (35:34):
or You're pivoting because you're impatient.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
You're pivoting because you're impatient yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Yeah, and so you know .
I read a statistic here a whileback that they said that the
average hunter puts in threeyears for every three years on
every record book buck or maturebuck.
I believe is what they said.
So that's not just that's ifyou see a buck and that's the
(36:01):
buck you're hunting, that's notanything legal, that's narrowing
it down your hunt down to aspecific buck.
You enter the season sayingthat's the buck I'm going after,
that's the buck I want to hangmy tag on and I'm not going to
settle for anything less.
Yeah.
If you go into it with thatmentality, which you know a lot
of people do, the average hunterhas three years learning that
(36:24):
buck.
Well, in the process oflearning that buck, you learn
that herd, you learn what trailsthey like and and where the
bedding areas are and that kindof stuff that'll be my third
year on two times.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Maybe I should move and this will be the year I get
him.
But I have a couple others thatare a little more enticing, I
would say, and because, like Isaid, that area is priming out,
so I want to take advantage,because where they could
potentially move, I think inthat area is not easily
(36:56):
accessible and so I'd hate forthem to move two ridgelines over
that I just can't get tobecause it's just not accessible
, and lose out on a couple ofreally nice bucks where I think
two times is.
Yeah it's actually the samedistance going in and stuff, but
I do know that, yeah, it's timeto pivot and feel cheap.
(37:19):
I mean it didn't cost meanything, I had cameras up.
Last year it was a few apples,it was five bucks worth of
apples, because what we spent onthose bins, you know it's five
bucks worth of apples, becausewhat we, you know what we spent
on those bins.
So and I did drags once, Ithink, for those Right.
I brought in another buck.
But okay, I learned and nowit's yeah time to move on.
(37:40):
So I don't know if we fail fast, but we can fail cheap yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
And I mean you know, I don't know that I want to fail
fast.
You know what I mean.
You know I don't know that Iwant to fail fast.
You know what?
I mean there's the history thatmakes that hunt even more
special when I do harvest thatbuck, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, the idea spending four years going after
or keeping an eye on luck Right,right.
But that'll be the same way forme when I get Anakin in a
couple of years.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
He's still got two more years, I think, before I'm
going to consider going in forhim Right on, but it'll be
rewarding.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Oh, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Everything involved with that.
So, anyway, we hope we gave yousome ideas for growing in your
hunt and if you need a mentor,send us an email.
We'll tell you what we knowsort of as best we can.
All right, We'll see you allnext week.
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron and I'm Dave.
This week we're going to talkabout growing in your hunt, so
the process of just becoming abetter hunter year after year.
I know we've done building oneyear off the next.
That's specifically related toyour sets, but this is more.
(00:22):
Just how do you become a betteroverall hunter is what we're
going to be looking at here.
So one of the things that we dowith and this is more of an kind
of an in-season thing is wecreate goals with the coaching
and SMART goals simple,measurable, achievable,
(00:43):
realistic and timely.
And basically that's just.
If you want to write out yourgoal, the more specific you are,
the more likely you are toactually achieve your goal.
And so it's just who, what,when, where and how.
We write those out and answerthose questions who I will, what
(01:03):
harvest day, whatever myparticular trophy is that year,
whether I want a specific buckor I just it's just.
I want a mature buck, whenduring you know, say, muzzle
loader or archery, or wheneverseason, where one of my sets and
how, using my black tail coachskills from the classes.
(01:28):
And then we break down thegoals in different areas, the
development areas, intosomething we call PI prep,
implement and evaluate.
So prep is basically what do Ineed to if I'm going to
implement something?
What do I need to do to?
What do I need to buy orresearch to work towards this
(01:53):
goal?
Implement is what you'reactually doing, so and then
evaluate is evaluation.
So, for instance, you'relocating We'll use that as an
example.
So prep I need to buy asubscription to Onyx or
HuntStand.
Implement spend an hour lookingover my hunting area, looking
(02:16):
for where I think potential,good habitat, good edges are
places.
I want to put boots on theground.
You know, second part of thatwould be go, put boots on the
ground and then you evaluate.
You know, did what I see on theapp match what I saw on the
ground?
And is what I saw on the groundgoing to work for my season?
(02:37):
And if not, we start thatprocess all over again.
We do a little more e-scouting,a little more boots on the
ground.
We evaluate Four, locating, andit can be, you know, and it's
kind of a skill development plan.
So it's about specific skillsor specific areas of the hunt
when you're prepping for nextyear.
(03:00):
So, with your weapon, locating,scouting, you know just
equipment, maybe learning how touse a new piece of equipment,
like you wouldn't buy a treestand and just walk out in the
woods the day before you'regoing to go hunting and put it
up.
You'd practice shooting fromthat and going up into it, you
(03:20):
know, during the summer, ideally, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Ideally, ideally, yes , and going up into it, you know
, during the summer.
Ideally, yes, yes, ideally yes.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So that's just something that we that is a very
integral part of our coachingand that is to help guys be
focused on what they need to doto get ready for their season
and it helps grow you inmanaging your year, Because
hunting is kind of a year-roundsport?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely, at least, if you
want to be successful at it yearafter year.
Yes, you'll find that the guysthat are are thinking about
hunting at least 11 months outof the year.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, they'll take Christmas off.
Yeah, because their spouses andfamilies demanded it.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Exactly, yeah, because our spouses and families
demanded it Exactly exactly.
But you know, it's funny thatyou're bringing this up in this
way because, fresh off of bootcamp and doing our
one-day-in-person classes andour online courses and all that
stuff, we try and implement thisinto part of the program in the
sense that when we get to thisportion of the class and or boot
(04:27):
camp or whatever, you can justsee the guys look at it like
what.
This is kind of odd.
Trying to.
it feels like school you knowwhat I mean.
But inevitably we'll get guyscoming up afterwards going doing
it this way, adding thatstructure with the goal setting
and all that stuff, it makes itso much easier for guys to
(04:47):
achieve their goals.
And I mean it's something thatyou do on a daily basis.
You just don't write it down.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
You know when you get up and what do you want to
achieve.
You know when I go on a jobsite.
What do I need to get donetoday?
What is my overall goal for theweek?
What is my overall goal for themonth?
As far as this project goes,the difference is is that it is
either being written down andgiven to you, or you're writing
it down and trying to accomplishit.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
You know what I mean.
And so when you add structureto this, you will find that
several things will happen.
Number one you justinstinctively start evaluating
every hunt and your season,because you've already placed
this goal down on paper andthat's always going to be in the
back of your mind going okay,that's going to be one of the
(05:35):
drivers to this season.
What do I need to achieve?
Why?
How am I going to achieve it?
You know what are like.
You're saying action, stepsthat I'm going to take, and all
this and at the same time, youknow you start evaluating not
just your season or your hunt,but you find yourself evaluating
everything.
So why didn't I get that?
Was it my weapon?
Do I need to upgrade this?
Is it my camo?
Is it you know?
(05:57):
Do I not have a piece ofequipment that I gear, that I
think I need, or is it that?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
I have too much gear should have.
Should I have gone five feethigher on with the ladder stand?
Am I trying to?
Speaker 3 (06:07):
take too much in.
You know I'm getting all hotand sweaty.
Can I consolidate?
Can I be more mobile?
You know I mean yeah, justthings that that a lot of
professional hunters take thetime to do all the time yeah,
you know.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So the part that helps you grow as a hunter,
because it starts training youto where that's like the muscle
memory version of that, yeah, ofjust it's reflexive to consider
everything.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Yeah, mental muscle.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah, after you've done something, you just
consider it Okay and you go overit in your mind and it's not
going over tossing it over andover and and over again to
micromanage or to overthinkthings.
Right, right, and that can bean issue to overthink things.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
There's a lot of guys that do that, yep.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
And that does not help, because you start making
mistakes, because you're notsure when to settle on something
.
So, this, implement, that iswhat you're going to do.
You don't need to overthink it.
You just do that thing Right.
Then you evaluate it.
So then, if you need to changeit, you do, but if you don't,
(07:19):
you got that one thing down andyou don't need to.
Well, maybe I should do, well,maybe I should.
Okay, was that successful?
Yeah, you don't need to doanything else.
Just do that again, right.
You know, if possible and a lotof this came because my
background I've always mentionedthis that I come from a
professional development andcoaching background in education
(07:39):
, and so this was in Asha aswell.
This was our, what we broughtto the table.
Asha did more of the curriculum.
I've done more of the coaching,because that's what I previous
job was professional coaching,and that's a lot of what I
brought to the table with this,this.
(08:07):
And so, before all of that,before you started doing this,
you know how did you create yourgoals, what was your process?
So this is something that we'vekind of, I would say, forced on
you as we've started all this.
Now, you probably did it.
You just didn't do it.
In my verbiage I would say oh,yeah, oh yeah, and, but what did
that look like before westarted the whole Blacktail
Coach?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
So I've always kind of the alpha male I, you know I
grew up in the Longview Kelsoarea and I always tell people
when I was growing up and youknow you'd run into somebody
that you knew hunted or whatnot,your first question wasn't how
you doing or how's the family,it was did you get your elk?
(08:46):
And that's just kind of theatmosphere that I grew up in.
So there was always that drivebeing, you know, kind of the
alpha that you know well, I wantto be successful, I want to be,
and success on many levels,success filling tags, success
being able to, and you know, Ithink a little, a little bit
well, a lot of it's got to dowith ego, you know, being able
(09:07):
to say that no, I got, I got ittwo years in a row, or three
years in a row, or eight yearsin a row, whatever it is you
know and a book buck or a record.
Yeah, you know and you know, asI've gotten older I realized
that that's a for me.
I'm a little embarrassed aboutthat, you know.
Just because you know myself, Ifelt like it was prideful and I
(09:31):
don't want to be that guy.
But you know, part of that justwanting to be successful, part
of it is wanting to beat.
That I make it personal when Ifind a buck and everything.
It's like no, I want to beatand that's why I name him,
that's why we, because I want tomake it personal.
(09:52):
I want to beat Clooney in hisown home.
I want to go out there, I wantto put in the effort, I want to
play this chess match with himand I want to beat him in his
own home.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
So, and going into season, you will have the goal
of I so, and going into season,you will have the goal of I want
to harvest Clooney, or I wantto harvest Hightower, or, and
that's kind of it, and thenthere's all of the other things
to get ready for that, Right so,which has become almost second
nature to you.
You know you're out almostevery night shooting your bow.
(10:26):
You know you're out doing thescouting now, and gosh, we were
so busy.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
You're just out doing the scouting now, yeah, I know,
and that's usually Februarywhen I'm getting into it.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
February when we're trying to look around and stuff
Right.
So how did you like early on?
And again, I've known you for30 years now and I've seen your
progression and growth as ahunter, and not necessarily that
we didn't, not that we hadin-depth talks about hunting and
(10:57):
we have you know over all thoseyears because it's just an
interest of yours.
You know I might ask yousomething like that, or you know
you're telling stories,different things like that.
But how did you assess, likewhere you'd tell in stories
different things like that.
But how did you assess whereyou were as a hunter, like
thinking, hey, I suck at this.
(11:19):
Or I hate you, I'm pretty good,but did you have a lot of those
real honest conversations withyourself?
Speaker 3 (11:27):
That's a great question, and and I would have
to say that the biggestinfluence for me was not meme,
you know, it wasn't myself.
It was me looking at otherpeople who were successful and
and seeing you know the animalsthey were getting, whether it be
bulls, bucks, bears, whateverand and saying that's where I
(11:50):
want to be in my hunting career.
So a lot of guys will listen tosomebody who talks a lot.
Well, he seems like he knowswhat he's talking about because
he's got all these stories andhe seems to know all these
places and everything like that.
But I don't see a lot of tagsfilled or I don't.
You know, and you know themeasure of success is different
(12:12):
with everybody, but for me itwas okay.
I wanted to get.
I'd reached a point where Iwanted to get big animals,
record book animals, and so itwas like, well, I know somebody
who does all the time and justabout everything they hunt.
Well, I thought, well, that'swho I need to go talk to.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, so you've talked about the mentorship
aspect of this.
What part I mean.
How did you go about?
You identified somebody Smokey.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Smokey, Cruz Smokey and Annette Cruz.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And you saw them.
But how did you go about kindof developing that friendship
and that where you were able tobe mentored by him?
Speaker 3 (12:54):
so kind of springboarding off what I was
just saying uh-huh there, thereare some people who talk, you
know, and they say it's gonnarain and I won't pick up an
umbrella yeah I won't evenbother looking up, you know, oh,
it's probably not cloudy.
Or even if it was cloudy, it'slike well, he said it was gonna
rain.
Bother looking up, you know, oh, it's probably not cloudy.
Or even if it was cloudy, it'slike, well, he said it was gonna
rain.
Well, probably not, you know hesays that kind of stuff all the
(13:14):
time and and that kind of thing,yeah, yeah and then like but
when smoky, if smoky said it wasgonna rain, well, I'm gonna
take an umbrella with me.
I don't even have to look atthe sky.
You know what I mean I'm?
It's like when he saidsomething I'm gonna listen.
Why?
Because he's got the animals toback up what he's saying uh-huh
and for me, you know, it waslike putting myself.
(13:38):
I was like, hey, do you needsomething done?
You know he's an elderlygentleman now and everything,
and still I don't think that Ihe's forgotten more about
hunting than I know yeah, youknow.
And guys, you know they don'trealize the resources that they
have around them from, from guysthat have put in the time, made
(14:00):
the mistakes and learn fromthem, you know enough to that,
and and these guys, they want toteach you.
You just need to develop afriendship.
Guys, they want to teach you.
You just need to develop afriendship.
And for me it was like you needa lawn mowed, you want your
tree, you know apple tree, youneed those apples picked, you
need that thing pruned.
You want your car washed, youknow what can I?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
do for you.
You need some electrical workdone.
You need some electrical workdone.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
By the way, I never did that under the that, that it
was always above board.
I did it with my license.
But you know it was just stufflike that.
Let me do favors for you andjust let me spend time with you,
and just you know to the pointwhere, like I said, it's almost
interviewing when it comes tohunting and stuff.
Just listening to his huntingstories was entertaining.
(14:43):
Yeah.
You know.
But he would tell me stuff thatI would say, okay, that's what
I need to do, For instance,watching hunting shows.
Yeah.
I don't watch them just forentertainment.
Entertainment's the last thingon the list.
I watch them to glean somethingoff of every hunt.
There's always something youcan learn.
I don't care what they'rehunting.
(15:03):
There's something you can learnfrom every hunt.
Yeah.
You know.
And something else he told meis magazines.
You know you get a magazine,you read it from cover to cover.
Doesn't matter if they'rehunting africa, doesn't matter
if they're hunting new zealand,you know red stag or or what
they're.
Whatever they're going afterdoesn't matter.
What matters is that you lookat how they hunted and you glean
(15:25):
something off of that hunt yeah.
And so now that's what I do.
I mean, you can attest to that.
I've got a stack of bowhuntermagazines and hunt magazines and
I went through them recently.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I was trying to get actually ideas for the podcast,
for episodes, and it was oh well, that's really interesting and
I want to look further into that.
You know, a lot of it was the,the wind, looking at the wind
and learning so much about thatand I think we've done a couple
of episodes just based off of mereading one article, which
(15:56):
turned into a dozen articles.
But yeah it.
it kind of grows.
And you know one point whereyou can learn something from
about one type of hunting.
For something else I rememberAlex talking about he used a
ground blind once to go turkeyhunting.
But he just put up a groundblind and the turkey walked in I
(16:19):
think up to 60 yards, looked atit and turned around and took
off.
And then he went through yourcourse and saw how you brushed
one in and a light bulb went off.
And then he went through yourcourse and saw how you brushed
one in and a light bulb went off.
He's like, oh, that turkey, Ididn't brush it in, so that's
why he didn't come in.
Well, it's turkey hunting andyou did it for deer hunting.
So yeah, there's a lot of stuffthat it just crosses over.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Right, right.
And there's just so muchinformation in those magazines,
not just the stories, but I mean, guys, you know well, how do
you know so much about CWD, howmuch do you know, how come you
know so much about EHD?
And I mean, all of that is justfrom reading it's just from
reading these studies that arein those magazines that go
overlooked, you know, overlooked, you know, and you know Smokey
(17:09):
always told me you know, ifyou're going to hunt something,
you need to know why it doeswhat it does.
Yeah.
So if you want to be good at itand Smokey, smokey is just,
he's the top 3%, he he's thecream that floats to the top, I
don't care where you could dropthem anywhere, and that guy is
going to, he's going to be justfine, Even at his age.
He'll kill something and eat,but it's because he understands
(17:31):
the basic things that driveanimals and he understands
animal behavior and why they dowhat they do and the purpose
behind it, and he exploits that.
And if you're going to be goodat any kind of hunting, that's
what you need to do.
You need to understand whatyou're hunting.
You need to know why they dowhat they do, when they do it,
the purpose behind it, whatdrives them, and you're going to
(17:54):
be able to interpret where youneed to be and when.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And it's funny because it can also cause you
and I did this talking to Alexit can cause you to ask more
questions that you might nothave thought about asking before
the right questions.
When we were talking about theturkey hunting episodes, I was
(18:19):
asking them about, okay, so weknow their sight's incredible
and their hearing's incredibleand I was like, well, what about
their sense of smell?
Oh yeah, they don't really haveone, okay, but see, I knew,
because deer could ask thatquestion.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
It's totally a different animal kingdom.
But yet this one uses smell.
It's its number one line ofdefense.
This one here doesn't even playa role in it.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
I mean again going back to what I said know your
animal what, and then ask theright questions yeah, and but
then it's understanding.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
For me it was like okay, deer, elk, it's the nose
you're beating.
You're trying to beat the nose,well, for turkey, then you're
trying to beat the eyes, or theeyes and the ears, and those
play a factor with deer and elkand everything else.
But it's primarily so trying tounderstand what's the primary
(19:17):
thing right of you know howshould I be going about this?
So again, new to hunting andall I've done is the deer
hunting and I've doneousehunting.
But you don't need to knowanything about hunting to go
grouse hunting.
Yeah, Grouse are like thevillage idiot of the animal
kingdom.
You just walk up behind themand you can most of them.
(19:39):
You just club with a stick andkill them.
Yeah, they are some dumb birds.
So one of the things I wantedto ask you and now that I'm
going into my third year, thishas kind of made me wonder,
because it's also somethingthat's kind of, I would say,
come up for bud is how do youwork through?
The thought of what you want todo contradicts what you've
(20:05):
learned, because it's more of agray area, and I'm asking it
because of this.
So we have the guys who gothrough the class and they think
that they have to do thingsexactly this way.
Where's the nuance?
And so something might kind ofcontradict or feels like it
(20:28):
contradicts what you've said,and I think Bud, because Bud
hunts a little bit differenthabitat than you Now he's still
looking for the thick, nastystuff and outside of there.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
He hunts a little bit more open.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
A little bit more open.
When I got to talking to him Irealized my spot is kind of
closer to his.
But now, being in my third yearand this is one of the things
when you go through somethinglike teaching classes or going
through so I would teachparenting classes and I did
these curriculum-based therapygroups for kids as one of my
(21:07):
years ago, one of my jobs thefirst two times going through
the curriculum it was you stuckto the script, just verbatim,
and you didn't wander off that.
But by the third time you wereso comfortable with it you
realized where you could maybeadd something in Right or maybe
tweak something just a littlebit.
(21:28):
Now you didn't go off script,but you tweaked it because you
were starting to learn thenuance of something.
And I've noticed that going intothis third year I'm comfortable
with the specifics of thesystem and now it's understand
okay.
Well, I can kind of tweak this.
Or realizing that the place I'mhunting is really getting to
(21:56):
the point when you talk abouthabitat.
It's aged out, and mine isn'tquite aged out but it's really
close, but it produced somemonster bucks, right, right, and
so, going back, it's okay, it'saged out technically, I would
(22:17):
say, in that specific spot,which contradicts what you've
taught, right, but I'mcomfortable with contradicting
that to an extent, because Iknow that I'm still surrounded
by that real thick stuff.
I'm just in maybe a one acrepatch.
That's a little thinner thanyou might like.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Right, right and, in all honesty, that doesn't bother
me at all.
I start off every one-dayseminar or boot camp with
telling the guys this is my wayof doing it.
It's not the way.
There's always going to bedifferent ways to accomplish
(22:59):
certain goals and I don't have aproblem with that.
Bud is very good and I give himcredit.
He is probably better atlocating that I am, and well,
he's no problem about it, he is,you know yeah, he's taking it
to another level.
That's just unbelievable.
And that's fine, that's fine,you know, and and he's gonna do
what he thinks is right.
You know, but I kind of so.
(23:21):
If you've been you, you, to anyof my classes, you've heard me
use that fishing lure analogy.
You know all the confidence youhave in your favorite lure.
Yeah.
Well, my favorite lure isn'tyour favorite lure, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
There are times when we do have the same favorite
lure, but a lot of times it'slike you know, I can show you a
spot and you can use the samelure.
It's this color they're hittingon, and all this, you know.
And then you come back and youfish it, or you take that lure
and you go to your spot.
Well, dave says this is whatthey like, and you start using
that lure.
And then you, well, maybe,instead of doing black with
(23:55):
yellow polka dots, maybe theywant black with chartreuse polka
dots.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And so you switch to that, and so you find that.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
okay, that works really good.
Or maybe just one size bigger.
As far as whatever lure you'reusing, something like that,
there's always certain nuancesthat are going to be variables.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
There's going to be some leewayin them.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
There's a human element to it and I remember,
because we've gone on fishingtrips up in Canada and for some
reason we were halibut fishingand I was they would just hit
mine, right, and I was just wewere all using the exact same
worms and everything.
I was just jigging it, maybe alittle different, right, and it
(24:43):
was, and that's it.
It's a human element that youbring to your hunt.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
So it might be something where, yeah, and and
who's to say bud bud's tappedinto something that, that, and I
don't know at all, you knowyeah, yeah, yeah he's just
tapped.
Maybe he he's tapped into theideal travel corridors, he's
been able.
They just stand out to him andand and that's where he's on and
(25:08):
you know, because I'm moretoward the bedding area, he's
more toward travel, travelcorridors and and destination
hunts.
But that's what he enjoys, andso who am I to to tell him it
works?
Speaker 1 (25:20):
yeah, and I think I've fallen into travel
corridors, because when he wasdescribing his habitat and what
he's looking for, I'm like, oh,I have all that stuff Right At
my set and yeah.
So, yeah, there's that nuance.
But thinking about Smokey toldyou something, or the way he did
something, Uh-huh, and at firstyou might have taken that as
(25:42):
gospel.
This is the way I have to do it.
Oh, absolutely yeah, butthere's a certain point of like
have you hit that?
And I'm sure you have where youhit, no, no, I don't have to do
it exactly that way.
Right, Like he'll tree stand.
You said six, eight feet, yeah,and I mean even when he was
younger.
(26:02):
He's older now, but when he wasyounger he didn't go up much
higher than that, did he?
No, he was like 15.
Yeah, but you go up 25.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, and I feel comfortable at 25.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
You know, that's where I feel like.
No, this is where I need to be.
But Smoke, I mean my gosh.
He's 70 some years old, he'sgot a tree stand at six, eight
feet off the ground and he'skilling deer.
Yeah, you know and it's likewell, there are no hard set fast
rules.
I guess you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
There's always going to be a little bit of variation
and whatnot, but initially, likeI said the first couple times,
through it, it's good to havethat base where you feel really
comfortable with that base?
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yeah, good base you can build on, bad base you can't
build on.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah, a good base and actually that's a perfect way
to say it good base to build offof.
So last thing I wanted to cover, and it's kind of a couple of
questions here, and it comesfrom the idea of I had a friend,
former co-worker, who hadgotten his MBA, and there's a
concept that's called fail fast,fail cheap, that if you're
(27:13):
going to try a new idea, try itin a way where you figure out if
it's not going to work.
You figure that out fast beforeyou have a lot of resources
invested, whether it's time ormoney.
So how do you mitigate wastingresources and resources being
time and money when you're maybetrying out something new?
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Boy, I don't know that I'm very good at that, to
be honest with you.
I mean, I'm the kind of guyyeah, I don't quit on things
easy, you know.
Uh-huh.
And I think that that's kind ofmy obsessive, compulsive.
I've got to see things to thefinish.
That's just how I am.
And if I'm going to go a wholeseason where I'm doing something
(27:57):
and it's just it's hurting memore than it's helping me, I
mean if it's glaringly obvious,that's easy to quit.
But if I go a whole season andand at the end of the season I'm
doing my season reflection andI realized, man, that that
particular you know, whatever itis, trait, item, whatever
really was a detriment to myhunt more than it was a help,
(28:20):
then it then then that'sprobably the time that I drop it
.
So I don't know that I'm reallygood at failing fast and
recognizing it.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
So it's kind of also recognizing the point where you
stop pivoting and that's a bigpart of this is oh, I got to
pivot, I got to pivot.
Oh.
We can't bait anymore.
Got to pivot, Got to pivotRight.
So when you stop pivoting andyou just throw in the towel,
it's like okay, this is just abad idea.
Right.
And to walk away, and I imaginein season that would be hard.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
But, maybe giving up on a spot or like not forcing
the issue.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
For me, not so much giving up on a spot as stop
jumping around.
You know, and it's funnybecause I talked about this week
and I talked about allowing youknow, if we sit there and jump
around, if we have multiple setson one herd of deer, then that
deer is manipulating ourbehavior.
I think you know, and that'sthe common thing that I see a
lot of guys doing, and I used todo the same thing and I just
(29:25):
stopped and realized that I'mhurting myself.
I've got to focus, I've got tonarrow it down, I've got to make
myself pick one area and stickwith that, because I think the
common thing is it's like yourkid when you take them fishing
for the first time and they'recasting out the.
You got bobber and worm andthey're casting out the bobber
(29:46):
and worm and they're more outthere for the casting than they
are the catching.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Because they're not into the sitting and waiting for
the bite.
You know, cast it out, hey dad.
I think I need to reel it inand recast it.
Son, we just threw it out there.
It's 20 yards out there, it'sway out there.
Oh dad, it's moving in.
I probably should recast.
Yeah, I think my bait fell offthey're looking for any excuse
to do some, yeah, have some kindof action and whatnot, and I
(30:10):
think that that the society andculture that we live in is
always on the go and so for usto stop and force ourselves to.
This is where it needs to happen.
I need to stop.
If it's going to happen, yeah,and just grind it you know, and
and I think that's a lost art isis the grind, and so I I'm not
(30:33):
necessarily the best guy to ask,I guess, this question because
I tend to lean toward the sidethat you know I'm not giving
enough time, I'm just quittingon it too early and and it's
good and it's bad.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, I think we've seen both extremes a lot and
people have gone through theclass that we've kept in contact
with and we see those guys whojump from spot to spot to spot
to spot and it's like okay, justtry this out.
And it's like okay, just trythis out Because, honestly,
until you start doing the centsdrags consistently for a while,
(31:11):
you really just don't know in aseason Right so to jump before.
That's really the switch hasflipped.
As we say yeah, it doesn't makea whole lot of sense.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Now, that's a great analogy because, every year we
do the same thing.
Yeah, I get a ton of phonecalls.
I get a ton of text message.
What am I doing wrong?
I'm not seeing anything shouldI move?
Speaker 1 (31:32):
should I do this?
Speaker 3 (31:33):
I need to do this, and the whole time I'm like just
relax, stay in your spot, keepdoing what you're doing.
When this, when the switchflips, you'll know.
Well, you know, and it's justagain.
It's continuous text and phonecalls.
I must be doing something wrongor there's no deer in this area
.
And, and you know, justnegativity after negativity,
after negativity, and then allof a sudden, I get a text oh my
(31:56):
gosh yeah I got eight bucks onmy set and it was like I don't
even know where they came fromand it.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
It actually worked for alex this year because he
put up a camera in a differentspot.
Hey, they're daylighting overyou know, over this other spot.
We'll kill your one spot.
Go ahead and move over, and hedidn't.
Two days later, he has you know, curry on the ground, on the
ground but overall that's notnecessarily a great strategy,
but being the first year andvery well first year in a new
(32:27):
spot, you can get skunked justbecause you're learning the new
spot.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh, they'll daylight in this spot, but if you go a
quarter mile over here or atenth of a mile, they won't
daylight.
And that was the same thing.
When Bud got Charlie, he hadmoved like 50 yards down the
trail 40 yards closer to thebedding area and it made a
four-hour difference.
Of him daylighting Correct.
Yeah, it got him to daylightwhen he wouldn't daylight, right
(32:54):
.
So yeah, there are times whereyou know those little tweaks, I
mean, and I did one in between.
Now I didn't do it like one dayI was in one spot and the next
day I was in another.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I kind of moved in between modern and late modern,
because I had a two-week windowwhere I could get in and make
some changes and whatnot.
But see the difference is thatwith Charlie, bud had a full
season prior to that, so he wasa full season of Charlie coming
in just after dark, just afterdark, just after dark, and the
next season was starting.
He's like I can't get him to dothat.
(33:36):
So the next season is when wemoved it.
And then with Alex, I mean hewas going through the coaching,
and so it was every day to everyother day phone calls, text
messages.
Should I do this?
What do you?
Should I do this?
What do you think of this, whatdo you think of that?
Speaker 1 (33:51):
and that's what it's for, I mean that's what we do
the coaching for that's why theyhave our numbers yep, and so it
was.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
It was a lot of okay, this, this and this, all right,
you know, and it and it paidoff you know, getting dialed
into his area and and what thedeer were doing.
And you know, I mean, and tohis, his credit, I mean he was
the one out there doing all ofthe work.
Yeah, you know, we just say,try this, try that.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Well, I would go over here and the reason I would do
that and the reason we want todo this, is this, this and this
but I have to say two out of mytwo out of my three sets I had
to abandon where I originallyset up because I realized that
was just not the right spot.
I think my halfway is the onlyone nailed it right from the
start.
This is the spot I need to bein, this spot I'm going to stay.
(34:38):
The other two RiversideRiverside is a big move to go
find the bedding area and stuff,so it's a big pivot.
Now not giving up on that area,that particular set, but
completely, I know, throwing thetowel on the one place I was at
.
But I've gone two years.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah, I was just going to say that's two seasons
of figuring it out.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah, and realizing, and it takes time.
Yeah, sometimes it takes timethey come in at night for a week
and a half and that's it.
Right.
Okay, well, I don't have that,you know, spotlight tag as you
say so now it's like okay, now I, I know I need to make a more
of a drastic move right, whichthe the area lends itself to
being able to do that, and butyeah, there's a certain point
(35:25):
where and I think a lot of ithas to do with are you learning,
you know?
Are you pivoting because you'relearning?
Speaker 3 (35:34):
or You're pivoting because you're impatient.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
You're pivoting because you're impatient yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Yeah, and so you know .
I read a statistic here a whileback that they said that the
average hunter puts in threeyears for every three years on
every record book buck or maturebuck.
I believe is what they said.
So that's not just that's ifyou see a buck and that's the
(36:01):
buck you're hunting, that's notanything legal, that's narrowing
it down your hunt down to aspecific buck.
You enter the season sayingthat's the buck I'm going after,
that's the buck I want to hangmy tag on and I'm not going to
settle for anything less.
Yeah.
If you go into it with thatmentality, which you know a lot
of people do, the average hunterhas three years learning that
(36:24):
buck.
Well, in the process oflearning that buck, you learn
that herd, you learn what trailsthey like and and where the
bedding areas are and that kindof stuff that'll be my third
year on two times.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Maybe I should move and this will be the year I get
him.
But I have a couple others thatare a little more enticing, I
would say, and because, like Isaid, that area is priming out,
so I want to take advantage,because where they could
potentially move, I think inthat area is not easily
(36:56):
accessible and so I'd hate forthem to move two ridgelines over
that I just can't get tobecause it's just not accessible
, and lose out on a couple ofreally nice bucks where I think
two times is.
Yeah it's actually the samedistance going in and stuff, but
I do know that, yeah, it's timeto pivot and feel cheap.
(37:19):
I mean it didn't cost meanything, I had cameras up.
Last year it was a few apples,it was five bucks worth of
apples, because what we spent onthose bins, you know it's five
bucks worth of apples, becausewhat we, you know what we spent
on those bins.
So and I did drags once, Ithink, for those Right.
I brought in another buck.
But okay, I learned and nowit's yeah time to move on.
(37:40):
So I don't know if we fail fast, but we can fail cheap yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
And I mean you know, I don't know that I want to fail
fast.
You know what I mean.
You know I don't know that Iwant to fail fast.
You know what?
I mean there's the history thatmakes that hunt even more
special when I do harvest thatbuck, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, the idea spending four years going after
or keeping an eye on luck Right,right.
But that'll be the same way forme when I get Anakin in a
couple of years.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
He's still got two more years, I think, before I'm
going to consider going in forhim Right on, but it'll be
rewarding.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Oh, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Everything involved with that.
So, anyway, we hope we gave yousome ideas for growing in your
hunt and if you need a mentor,send us an email.
We'll tell you what we knowsort of as best we can.
All right, We'll see you allnext week.
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