April 14, 2025 • 38 mins
The transformative power of connecting veterans with the outdoors forms the beating heart of this conversation with Emile "Mo" Moured, founder of Cross the Divide Ministries. After 28 years as a Navy and Marine Corps chaplain, Emil channeled his passion for serving veterans and love for wilderness experiences into creating a ministry that has explosively grown from two states to thirteen in just four years.
Cross the Divide represents a beautifully simple yet profound approach: combining God's truths with God's creation to help veterans navigate life's challenging terrain. Unlike organizations that merely offer recreational activities, they provide skilled facilitators who can walk alongside veterans through meaningful conversations that naturally emerge during hunting trips, fishing expeditions, backpacking journeys, and horse camps.
What began with a focused mission has organically expanded through what Mo calls "God-ordained providential opportunities." From unexpected connections with ranch owners offering their properties to partnerships with the Navy SEAL Foundation, doors continue opening in remarkable ways. Perhaps most compelling is the ministry's commitment to involving entire families in their experiences, recognizing that true healing happens when veterans and their loved ones share new, positive narratives together.
The impact speaks volumes through stories like the Marine veteran who lost his leg to an IED in Afghanistan. After participating in a Cross the Divide hunt, he declared: "This is the most alive I've felt in 14 years." Such transformations aren't anomalies but represent the heart of their mission.
Operating without salaried staff and relying entirely on volunteers and donations presents challenges in balancing growth with sustainability. Yet the ministry continues forward, driven by the knowledge that these experiences create community and purpose for those who've served our nation. To learn how you can participate in events or support their mission, visit crossthedivideus.com and become part of this powerful movement connecting veterans with healing through God's creation.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Black Tail Coach Podcast.
This is Aaron, and today we arewith a special guest, emil
Bored Mo from Cross the DivideMinistries.
So we've been working with yousince I believe this is our
fourth year.
This is our fourth year, yeah,doing the class for you guys,
which the first couple of yearsI didn't make it.
I was working on Saturdays andfinally Dave and Asha said you
(00:24):
have to come up because it wasoriginally up in Poulsbo and
it's like you got to see this,which, growing up in Port
Orchard, so I'm a local boy upthere I was like, well, it's
Poulsbo, it's where I grew upand yeah, it's different when
you can get away, kind of for aweekend up there and stuff.
So we wanted to talk to youabout Cross the Divide and what
you're doing and stuff.
So why don't you tell us, startoff telling us about your
(00:47):
background and how that led youto start Cross the Divide?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Sure.
Well, first of all, for thefolks listening who aren't
familiar with it, cross theDivide is a nonprofit.
It's an outreach to veteransand their families.
Our goal is to help veteransnavigate the challenging terrain
of life you know we bring.
I like to think we we arefacilitators of hope and healing
and really transformation inpeople's lives by bringing them
(01:13):
into experiences the outdoorshunting, fishing, backpacking,
llama packing, horse camping,all these things and we apply
biblical principles to what wedo and folks who come to these
events.
They may or may not have anyparticular faith, but what they
find is that these principleswork.
(01:34):
God's truths in God's creationis a powerful equation for
success.
So Cross the Divide startedright after I retired in 2021.
So I did 28 years in the Navyand Marine Corps as a chaplain
and as I retired just to answeryour question, you know how did
this begin when I was about toretire and I was thinking what's
(01:55):
next.
You know, prayerfully trying toconsider what to lean into to
try to have an impact and otherpeople's continue to have an
impact specifically in veteranslives, because that's that's
been my passion right For threedecades and it grew up in a home
where my dad was a world wartwo combat infantry vet.
So it's been in my blood forforever.
(02:15):
Just trying to think what's thenext step and realizing that
God had also given me thispassion, this desire to do
things outdoors, I thought, well, how do we combine those two
things?
And the natural outcome wasCross the Divide.
At the same time, a buddy ofmine who is a retired Navy SEAL
called me one day and said hey,there's this property down in
(02:37):
Eastern Oregon.
There's a gal who's beenserving veterans through the
exact kind of thing that you'rewanting to do and she's looking
to sort of phase out and hand itover to somebody.
And, long story short, I wasnot able to take over the camp,
which I think was her desire.
She did a wonderful work, butwhat we were able to do is
(02:59):
through a transition ofreincorporating what she was
doing, expanding the scope fromthis one camp in Eastern Oregon
to 13 states 14 states I thinkwe've had events in now to also
make the mission a little bitmore fine-tuned to being overtly
faith-based.
(03:21):
And also her focus wasspecifically post 9-11 combat
wounded veterans, which is anamazing mission.
But we have expanded that toserve all veterans and their
families because we feel likeit's really important for
veterans to not just have agreat experience and then go
back into the family system.
That has no idea of whatthey've just experienced and a
lot of times they revert to sortof old ways of interacting.
(03:44):
So what we try to do as much aspossible is involve the
families in that experience sothat way they're having that
together, they're sharing somekind of narrative together.
That's new, that's positive,and they can sort of experience
transformation going forwardtogether as well.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
And so you've done, like couples outreach, couples
retreats as well, or couplescamps.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, great question.
Um, so that has been the desirefrom the beginning to do
marriage retreats or couplesevents and we did not do couples
events the first two years itwas mostly veterans and they
could bring their families withthem, especially like on our
hunting trips.
We did a llama packing trip forfathers and their children one
(04:30):
year, but last year was thefirst year.
We did an actual no-kiddingcouples retreat.
It was a horse camp in CentralOregon in the Bend area in the
Deschutes National Forest.
That was super popular, so much.
So we're doing two this yearExcellent.
And we've also added a marriageretreat.
We're partnering with afantastic organization called
(04:52):
Protectors Peak, run by a nowretired law enforcement officer
in northern Idaho, and we'reactually bringing in Navy SEALs
and their spouses, navy SEALveterans and their spouses, in
coordination with the Navy SEALFoundation.
And that all started because Ireached out to them when we
started four years ago and said,hey, across the divide, here's
(05:14):
what we do, here's how we canhelp.
And their response was sort oflike hey, that's great, what we
could really use is help withmarriages, and can you do that?
And I was like, yeah, andthrough a series of events we've
just been delayed until thisyear.
But we're excited.
We put the word out and withintwo weeks it was filled up.
So we're really excited aboutthat.
(05:34):
We're also looking at doing amarriage retreat in Wyoming
later this year.
Those are brand new.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Excellent.
So what year did you actuallyget your official start?
Because I was looking at thewebsite and so getting some
background information, and I'velooked at your website in the
past, but not in the context of,hey, I want to actually
interview you and get the wordout with what you're doing to
our community as well.
So when did you actually getyour start with CrossFit Advice?
(06:01):
Because it looked like therewas a shift over the last few
years.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
get your start with Cross the Divide Because it
looked like there was a shiftover the last few years.
Yeah, so that camp I wasreferring to, that this gal ran
in Eastern Oregon, was calledDivide Camp.
Cross the Divide startedJanuary of 2022.
So there was a bit of aturnover between September of 21
, when I retired, and January of22 when we actually kicked off
(06:25):
Cross the Divide.
So we reincorporated thenonprofit that she had started.
Again, new mission, also a newboard.
The board is completelyveteran-based right now, so it's
sort of organized and run byveterans for veterans kind of a
thing.
So we've been going sinceJanuary of 22 as Cross the
(06:47):
Divide.
The organization, legally asfar as the IRS is concerned, has
existed for about 11 years.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Okay, okay.
So when you talk about January2022, it's interesting because I
think it was like May or Juneof that year, we did our first
class.
Dave came up and did his firstclass with you guys, and so it's
interesting when youreincorporated in January and it
was a ministry partner with youthat actually reached out to
(07:16):
Dave or saw David at one of thesportsman shows and reached out,
and so I know when we firststarted, it was kind of a hey,
they reached out to us aboutdoing this class and so it was
like, oh okay, because we weretrying to figure out, well, how
do we work with nonprofits.
So it actually really got usfocused.
So what do we?
(07:37):
You know, because BlacktailCoach is for profit, but it's
still a ministry for us, a wayto create a community, but that
kind of pushed us, you helpedpush us into okay, what
communities are we looking toreach out to?
And so it became veterans,which is why we do veteran
discounts on all of our stuff.
(07:58):
Yeah, thanks for doing that.
But then families you know it'sanother big thing.
We want families out huntingtogether or enjoying the
outdoors together, encouragingthose.
So I know it's been a reallygreat partnership for both of us
throughout that.
So you've been expanding intostates.
I heard you talk about thatearlier, but when we were
getting started here today thatit's kind of blowing up.
(08:18):
So tell us about what you'redoing in other states and how
that's expanding.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, thanks, aaron.
So the initial vision was justto focus on Eastern Oregon and
Western Washington, which iskind of the two areas where we
had people, our primary huntingfacilitator or guide, andy
Markham, who is just an amazingindividual.
He and his whole family have agreat ministry when we bring
(08:45):
hunters and their families there.
And then I was in WesternWashington and so we started
running backpacking events outof the Olympic National Forest
National Park.
And you know, we didn't haveany money.
Well, that's not true.
We had some money that wasdedicated specifically for
backpacking events, so that wasan easy reach.
But we didn't have a lot to do.
(09:06):
A whole lot of other stuff, butvery quickly.
So the individual that you'retalking about, jeff Lander, with
Tie that Binds, or ParacleteInternational at the time, or
Paraclete Ministries, he was theone that linked us up.
So all these connectionsstarted happening.
And you know, without goingthrough the laundry list of all
these connections and it waswhat ended up happening was?
(09:28):
You know, people would ask mewell, what's your five-year plan
?
And I'm kind of like well, I'mgoing to follow God's lead on
this.
I don't feel the need to have a.
But having said that, you know,if we have events in five
states in five years, yeah,that's exciting, that's a win,
you know.
Whatever, yeah.
Well, within 10 months we hadevents in eight different states
(09:50):
and it was just one partnershipafter another.
Just things started bubblingforth and different connections
from different means, and youknow the main thing was do you
know what we're about?
Like again, god's truths andGod's creation.
You know we're trying to helpveterans navigate the
challenging terrain of life,bringing their family and if you
(10:11):
get that and not everybody's askilled facilitator, some people
are good at guiding but notgreat at facilitating, and the
facilitating part is what reallysets us apart from there's a
lot of other veteranorganization, veteran service
organizations that do similarstuff, you know.
And there's a lot of people wholove to go out and sit around a
(10:31):
campfire and drink beers andlaugh, or go out and hunt and
campfire and and drink beers andand laugh, or go out and hunt
and you're like, hey, if you canget me an elk, that's a great
thing.
Or get me a deer, like, and thatis fun.
Don't get me wrong, I mean loveto get out there and harvest
stuff myself, but but what we'reabout is so much more than that
.
So it was important to findpartners who got that part too,
like who could walk throughpeople's deep water with them,
(10:55):
not force them into the deepwater, but you know, as those
discussions happen, as we invitethem into those discussions, or
they just happen when you're ona hunt or on the river or in a
trail or whatever that they knowhow to navigate that, and so
finding the right partners hasbeen huge and we've just been so
blessed.
So we've got folks like AdamCorman in Pennsylvania, mike
(11:17):
Kramer in North Dakota, mikeStrong in Indiana, who's a
sheriff's deputy but he's also aMarine, andy Markham and Dan
Bostet in Eastern Oregon, whoare both Marines, and now
they're joined by Lyle McDonald,who's also a Marine.
We've got a lot of Marines forsome reason which they're close
to my heart.
You know my 28 years.
I spent 13 of my 28 yearsserving Marines.
(11:38):
So, and all you know Marineinfantry.
So I love, I love the devildogs, but we've had events in in
now 13 States and it's justpart of me.
Honestly, we're always wantingto grow, especially when you're
in the military, like you never.
When you're writing thenarrative for your yearly
evaluation, or in the Navy wecall them fitness reports, or
(12:00):
Army I think it's OER orwhatever.
When you're putting it like,you never want to say I did less
than I did last year, you know,because that's sort of like a
career killer.
But the reality is, sometimesyou've got to pull back and make
the foundation strong andsecure so that you can grow in a
healthy way.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And I've been telling our folks that every year, like
we need to just dial it backand focus on foundation.
And then I totally violate myown principle Because stuff
comes up right.
I mean, it's like you know whenthings.
Finally, when all the pieceslined up and we got a, I got
linked up with a recentlyretired chaplain who spent most
(12:38):
of his time on active duty withthe Navy Steels.
He was part, he was with themwhen Extortion 17 happened,
which you may not be familiarwith, but a lot of our, your
listeners, who may be familiarwith what happened when SEAL
Team 6 went down in Afghanistan.
Like he was with them.
So he's this well-knowncommodity in the SEAL community.
When he showed up and the SEALFoundation was ready to go and
(13:03):
like, how do you say no to that?
Like, how do you say no?
And at the same time, nateHarder from Protectors Peak was
like, hey, we just want to giftyou our um, our property, for
you know an event or two inNorthern Idaho.
Like, like when God basicallysays okay, I know what you're
trying to do, but I'mcoordinating all the pieces and
I'm just going to drop this inyour lap and all you literally
(13:26):
have to do is say yes.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
And take the next step.
Yeah, it's hard to you know,it's hard to say no, but that's
kind of how.
The question of how did you gofrom zero to 13 states or
whatever it's been?
It's a long story, it's a lotof networking, but it's a lot of
God-ordained providentialopportunities.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, the right guys hearing about it.
Yeah, and ladies, that'sanother thing.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
We started doing women's retreats two years ago.
A gal on our board who's aretired Air Force officer, tammy
Orton, wonderful woman who hashad her heart and invested her
time in women's ministries toveterans for years.
She started doing these forCross Divide two years ago and
(14:15):
to just to be blessed to havethese kind of connections before
I left active duty, that havepersevered past active duty and
then some of these newrelationships just in the last
few years, like with you allit's been man, I feel like I'm
on a.
I'm just on a ride and all Ihave to do is hold on and you
know I'm not the one directingit, somebody else's and it's
(14:36):
just been a blast, you know it'sone.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
It's been interesting when I hear Dave talk about
creating his system for huntingand you expect certain people to
get on board right from thestart and they weren't.
And then you have differentpeople that you didn't know
existed Basically they weren'tin your.
Then you have different peoplethat you didn't know existed
basically they weren't in yourcircle, but then they show up.
So it sounds like you've hadthese people that you weren't
(15:02):
expecting showing up.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, it's a little of both.
You know, like another guy,that he runs a trout fishing
retreat for us every year, terryBuley.
I met him when I was still onactive duty and we were just
talking one day.
He's also a financial guru andwhen he started learning he does
my, he manages my investmentsfor me, and he started asking me
(15:26):
about Cross the Divide and Iwas like, would you like to do
something?
He's like I'd love to.
So there's things like that.
But then there's people who comein out of the blue, like Dave,
like Nate Harder in NorthernIdaho, like this gentleman who
owns a ranch down in Texas Ijust met two weeks ago, who
heard about what we do and saidI want to gift you my ranch to
(15:48):
use for veterans and theirfamilies and you know whether
they're wounded veterans or goldstar families or whatever and
you just come down and use it.
I mean that's that is a giftworth.
I don't know, I don't swim inthose that that world normally,
but I'm guessing those kinds oftrips are normally like 10 to
$15,000.
So, somebody says you know, Ibelieve in your mission and what
(16:09):
you're doing and I know you'rea nonprofit, so I just want to
gift this to you.
Like those again, like you said, those providential meetings
with people I didn't even know,I wouldn't have, couldn't have
told you their names a year agoor their.
That's just been amazing to bea part of.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, really, it's just really interesting hearing
a lot about this and how thatexplosive growth cause we've
seen it as well.
But there's also that you wantto maintain the quality and so
kind of my role, amongst otherthings, is I'm the pump, the
brakes, because Asha, especiallyAsha, will go nuts with ideas.
(16:46):
Oh really, oh yes, and she hasreally great ideas.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
She's really well structured and she does such a
great job with the details too,so that's a unique balance to be
a creative idea person and alsoa detail-oriented person.
That's great.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, and I mean it's oh, I came up with a new logo
for some more T-shirts.
It's like, how about we sellthe 500 T-shirts we have and
then we come up with some newlogos, because it was a new logo
every couple of months, butthings like that.
But you know, I've been likethe, the pump, the brakes and
let's make sure this is allquality, but it's still kind of
(17:24):
blown up and even like with this, with the podcast, I do another
podcast with another friendhobby, whatever, but I'm like,
yeah, we should do one.
And then this is just blown up,which has caused everything
else to blow up, which hascaused us to think, okay, maybe
it's time that we now do some ofthose big plans that Asha came
up with that are really great,but we weren't there yet.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
So well, and you know people always talk about when
you're, when you're trying toget launched something or grow
something, that scalability andsustainability are too important
.
It sounds like the scalablepiece we've both been
experiencing in just a wonderfulway and you and I are both also
trying to keep the sustainablepart in mind because, you know,
(18:08):
I just I think of.
I mean, this is honestly, I'mreading a book now about just an
analysis of ancient culturesand politics and how that was
something that even hundreds orthousands of years ago that they
would focus on is we can't growtoo fast.
We have to make sure that theinfrastructure keeps pace with
(18:28):
the growth because if it doesn't, things are going to crumble
really quick.
And as much like I say for me,as much as I've been mindful of
that and as many things as I'vesaid no to, yeah, it's so hard
when you know you can impactpeople's lives and life is short
, like if this is a race and youknow, think of life as sort of
a race.
I feel like you and I are goingto get to the finish line one
day and we're going to go Idon't care if it's at 58 or 88
(18:51):
and we're going to look back andgo wow, that went by really
fast, you know, and I just wantto invest my time in things that
are worthwhile and going tochange people's lives.
Yeah, the other thing, you knowyou mentioned that you're a
for-profit versus a nonprofit,because I also own a business
and so I get I get both pieces.
The business kind of helps mepersonally, put food on the
(19:12):
table so I can feed my nonprofitaddiction.
So I'll tell you that's likeone big difference is that when
I have a business, I'm selling aproduct that generates income.
So you sort of have one from a30,000 foot view.
You have like one major line ofeffort and that's to create and
sell this product, and then theproduct generates the income.
(19:35):
But, when you're a nonprofit,you're serving people that does
not necessarily generate incomeand you're and you're not really
doing it to try to generateincome from the people you're
serving.
So you have this whole otherline of effort which is
traditionally been calledfundraising or partnership
development or whatever you wantto call it, and that I mean I
kind of knew that cognitivelygoing into this.
(19:55):
But that has been a huge shiftbecause the demand to step in
and help veterans in powerfulways which Cross the Divide does
like, statistically, the changewe see in people's lives, the
lack of suicidal ideations orsuicides from people who leave
Cross the Divide events, allthese things it's so powerful it
(20:15):
doesn't translate into incomenearly as readily.
It's trying to share thatnarrative with people who see
what we're doing and have apassion for what we're doing and
want to step in and say I can'tdo it, you do it, I can't do it
, but here's what I can do.
I can help make it happen byproviding you this land or this
property or with a financialdonation or volunteer time.
(20:39):
And that's where it's been achallenge, honestly, because we
are, I would say that we're thatbalance between making sure the
foundation, the infrastructure,which for us is our support
keeps pace with the growth.
That is a real challenge.
It's for every growth.
That's a real challenge is forevery nonprofit.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
It's interesting when you're talking about that.
So one of the things I wouldsay that really surprised us
most when we started this is wethought we're creating a product
and we're going to sell thisproduct it's the classes but
then all of a sudden, we startedmeeting these really great
people and this community kindof came out of what we're doing
(21:18):
and we realized and I thinkthat's what has driven home for
all of us the ministry aspect ofour work we see the community
and that's our focus.
We want guys who people women,men, husbands, wives, families,
just all of that.
We want that community to grow.
(21:39):
We want, you know, people tofeed off of each other and it's,
you know, it's amazing whenguys who go through different
courses connect with each otheron Facebook and start having
lunch and start getting togetherand become friends and, yeah,
that that ends up being the realblessing for all this.
It's great having lots ofpeople show up to the events,
but when we see this communitycome together, that's it.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, that's really fulfilling, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, because otherwise it's something that if
it weren't for that community,I think, if things didn't go
well we recently had changeswith the state, with baiting and
with doing cents it would havebeen easier to walk away.
Well, it's just a business,it's a side business for all of
us, we could walk away.
(22:25):
But when it's that community,it's that obligation of no, we
want to.
We want to stick with thesegroup of people we've put
together.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, and I mean, and I use the word obligation and I
know, and that's that may betrue, but I know what you mean
is it's more than just a oughtto, it's a want to like like
it's an obligation, because youfeel this.
You know that it is incrediblyfulfilling for the people that
like to just give them knowledgeis is worthwhile and there's
(22:54):
some fulfillment in that, butfor them to be part of a
community is where the realfulfillment for them comes in,
and for you, yeah, but you seethat you know that's where the
power is, and so you and youcare about that's really what it
comes down to.
You care about these people,which is maybe a weird thing to
say for somebody who's quoteselling a product, but I know
you guys do.
You care about the folks whoare listening to this podcast,
(23:17):
who come to your seminars, whodo the coaching, who buy your
product, et cetera, et cetera,and and that's why you do that
you know it's and it's.
I'll tell you we I mentionedthis trip to Texas.
I could tell a guy who came on ahunt three years ago and he and
I served together in 2-7, 2ndBattalion, 7th Marines, and he
(23:40):
ended up losing a leg due to anIED that he hit in Afghanistan
in 2008.
But he came out on a hunt.
That, in and of itself, is afantastic story.
If you ever want to go on ourYouTube channel you can see it's
the Ty Woods Memorial Hunt withMaster Sergeant Gabe Guest.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I actually did watch that Okay.
Yeah, because it's been up forabout a year.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
A few years.
Yeah, oh, a few years Okay.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
I watched it, I believe after the show left
Right on.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
So he's not only just a wonderful human being but
he's a good friend and we wantto get him out there.
But like a lot of our folks whogo through combat, who are
leaders of war fighters incombat, you know he came back
with a lot of not just physicalbut personal challenges he was
working through and to hear himat the end of those four days,
(24:28):
after having some real struggles, say this is the most alive I
felt in 14 years, that was oneof the most meaningful things.
So we go to Texas a coupleweeks ago and Gabe is actually
the guy that introduced me tothis rancher just outside of San
Antonio.
So we went kind of a long wayaround to visit with Gabe and
his wife and I brought all ofour participants for that event
(24:52):
with me so they could meet him.
For what you're saying, it'slike we're not just going to
have an event Like I want you tobe part of this cross the
divide family and I want you toto see the impact of what we do
on a, on an individual like Gabe, and have him tell you directly
his story and help Cause.
A lot of the folks that werecoming on this event were our
(25:13):
guides and facilitators fromaround the country.
So these were part of the crossthe divide team our guides and
facilitators from around thecountry.
So these were part of the Crossthe Divide team and I wanted
them to understand like this,exactly what you just said.
This is about changing people'slives and it's about building
community.
It's not about just doing areally cool thing for a day or
for four days and then sayingsee ya, and wasn't that fun.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
It's so much more than that.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, and we tell people at the end of our classes
it's, we don't teach a classand kick you to the curb.
You're part of this communityand so, yeah, be part of the
community Right on, as much oras little as they want, but you
know it's your participation,we're not determining that.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, Well, and you and Dave and Asha are such
wonderful, personable people.
I hope the folks listening toyour podcast really understand
what you're saying and take youup on that offer, cause it's
that's I think that's where thereal power comes in.
You know, whatever, whether youknow, it's more than about just
hunting.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah and again.
So you know we have five prostaff.
Two of them were people thatDave knew before starting this
company.
One of them was actually one ofthe guys who was in his youth
group, and there's a lot ofother guys who are, you know,
we're texting all the time backand forth and they're asking
(26:42):
questions and just checking inwith each other and it's like I
said, it's the community is whatreally.
We've been blown away by all ofthat.
So I want to talk about, likeyour favorite outdoor
experiences, my background.
I grew up hiking.
In fact, it was reallyinteresting when you talked
about doing the hiking trips upin the Olympic mountains.
That's where I got my startedBoy Scouts.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
You know, 40 years ago was hiking the Olympic
mountains.
What are your favorite outdooractivities that you like to do,
that you just love doing?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
You know, growing up my favorite two outdoor
activities were bass fishing andbackpacking.
It wasn't until I was gosh 40,maybe 40, early 40s that a
friend of mine, mike Williams,who's still on active duty, and
another buddy of mine, bruceCrowderfield, who retired.
(27:34):
They're both bow hunters andMike said to me he goes, you
really enjoy backpacking thatmuch.
I'm like, yeah, and I'm like,why?
Why do you ask like that?
He goes.
Well, honestly, most peopledon't enjoy just living out of
the backpack for days on end.
I'm like, really Like.
I mean, it was, it was puzzlingto me, cause I'm like why
wouldn't you Right?
But then I was like okay, beinga little bit older, with, as you
(27:55):
know, some aches and pains, itactually makes more sense now.
But some people just don'tenjoy it, right?
So he goes, you like hunting?
I'm like I've never you knownever been hunting.
You know, grew up in an areawhere there wasn't a whole lot
of opportunity hunting.
I said, but I think I would.
He goes you should try bowhunting.
I'm like, really why?
And he just kind of explained,like, if you think you'd enjoy
(28:23):
hunting and you like gettingdeep in the woods, you should
try.
And he explained why.
And it just sounded so cool tome.
Next opportunity I had, I boughta bow, started putting, you
know, arrows through targets, Istarted learning everything I
could, uh, self-teaching.
And then I went online and Ifound somebody to go hunting
with.
My wife was a little concerned.
She's like so you're goinghunting with my wife was a
little concerned.
She's like so you're goinghunting with this guy and you've
never met him and you don'teven know who he is.
Yeah, well, where'd you findhim?
Well, it was some online forum,you know.
(28:44):
She's like she.
You know, to her it was like Iwent on Craigslist and found a
date and I'm about to getmurdered or something I'm like.
Well, you know, most huntersaren't that type A or people who
do this and B.
You know, I've got a weapon onme too, so I don't think he's
going to be those kinds ofpeople.
Look for soft targets, not hardtargets, right?
So anyway.
(29:05):
So it ended up being awonderful experience, and he and
I hunted for a few yearstogether before life kind of
took us in different directions.
And we got into elk every yearin Western Washington.
I don't think I realized thatit wasn't supposed to be that
easy until later, as I talkedwith more and more people yeah,
Even these two guys, Bruce andMike, that got me into bow
(29:27):
hunting when I told them like,like, getting into deer, getting
into elk every year in WesternWashington which, as you know,
is harder because we're talkingthick, steep stuff, black-tailed
deer and Roosevelt elk, whichhave gotten quieter and quieter
over the years.
And so when I told them like oh, yeah, I'm getting into animals
, they're like, you realizethat's not necessarily the norm.
(29:50):
I'm like, oh, you know, yeah,listening to a bull bugle at 30
yards away and having itreverberate through your being,
there's nothing like it.
So I would say, at the top ofthat list nowadays is bull
hunting.
Unfortunately, my body ismaking it harder and harder for
(30:10):
me to get out there and do thatkind of deep backcountry stuff.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, and that's I mean.
Actually that's why Dave had tostart this system.
He got Lyme's disease and hetalks about this a lot that he
can't do the high country, thebackcountry stuff anymore
Although his son is getting intothat and he went in with a
friend last year.
Miles in his friend got an elkand he's young enough and strong
(30:37):
enough and fit enough to do twoor three trips back and forth
hauling that elk out.
And I'm like, okay, I likeDave's system because I've been
hunting two years now.
I've done bird hunting in thepast, but I was like I can't do
that, I don't really want to dothat and yeah, it's interesting
backpacking and for me it wassaltwater fishing on the.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Puget Sound.
That's what I grew up doing.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Not really hunting, although there were lots of
great habitat back then and youcould actually get into the
woods.
They weren't all gated and allthat, but across the divide.
So what other events do youhave coming up?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah.
So this year we've got a llamapacking.
We typically do between one tofour llama packing trips a year,
so we've got that coming up.
We've got.
We were planning on doinginitially two horse camps, again
a marriage or a couple's horsecamp and a men's horse camp, but
we wanted to add a woman'shorse camp and so this year
(31:34):
we're actually just got to againthe whole thing of like not
doing, not over committing,right.
So I just got off the phoneyesterday with Jeff Campbell.
He and his wife Penny,wonderful people, salt of the
earth, people down there in Bend, oregon, with stirrup purpose,
who do our horse camps for us.
They're planning on, they'relike, well, let's do five.
And I'm like Jeff, just so youknow I didn't budget for five,
(31:56):
I'm like I've budgeted for two,but he's like that's all right,
he's like you know, he's likeyou know that helps a lot.
But you know we just we lovethese.
They're just wonderful peopleand veterans that have gone on
those events just come backsupercharged and changed.
We've got, I mentioned, themarriage retreat for Navy SEALs
(32:17):
in Northern Idaho.
We've got the one in Wyomingthat is under development.
We do one-on-one and group flyfishing trips in Pennsylvania,
which also has turned intoWestern Virginia.
We've got a hunt for heroes wedo for four veterans in November
in Indiana.
We do a pheasant hunting trip,multi-day trip, every year in
(32:39):
North Dakota with Mike Kramer.
He also kind of does stuff inthe evening with everybody, just
kind of you know quote unquotecampfire conversations, but
they're indoors so there's nocampfire.
We've got the trout fishing.
In fact if you're anywhere nearArkansas and you'd like to go
on the trout fishing retreat,that is in October and that is a
fairly new date as well, so letus know.
(32:59):
We'd love to hook you up withTerry Buley down there.
We've got a ton of hunts inEastern Oregon.
Most of those are already fullbecause we kind of have to
identify hunters soon.
But and then in WesternWashington we have I don't have
the dates on me, but we've alsogot things you know like
backpacking type trips andrustic retreats.
We've got another place thatalso has donated their their
(33:21):
retreat site a bunch of cabinsthere in the in the foot of the
Olympic national forest.
It's just, yeah, I'm.
I know I'm missing something,because I told you how many
States we've had stuff in, butwe've got a lot going on.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Keep the whole calendar in your head.
Even we have a limited calendarand it's still wait a minute.
When is that?
What are we doing?
So, yeah, I get that, but ifpeople wanted to find out about
these events, whether people whowant to partner with us, I got
to tell you one more thing.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And he's probably listening to me right If he's
hearing this podcast.
He's like I can't believeyou've totally forgotten me.
So Corey Watson, who helped usget our tags in Oregon for years
, he moved to Tennessee about ayear ago, started Cross, the
Divide, tennessee.
It has exploded.
He's got I mean, he's fullyretired from the Army and Marine
(34:14):
Corps and he did both.
But this is what he focuses onand he is amazing.
He gets folks on deer and pigand take some bass fishing and
we've got a track chair thereand in Eastern Oregon and so we
had a Vietnam veteran whocouldn't walk, get out there and
harvest a deer in a track chairand he said this was the first
deer he's harvested since he gotback from Vietnam.
(34:37):
He's like I've gone out withother organizations and they
just kind of other these veteranservice organizations.
They're nice, he's like, butthey just kind of stick me out
and say have fun.
He's like this is the firsttime I've actually had somebody
stay with me, mentor me throughit, help me with everything from
you know, load me up to tofield, dress in the animal, to
(34:57):
everything, and that's whatCorey and he's yeah, corey is an
amazing.
Again, if you are anywhere nearor could get to Tennessee and
would like to go on a hunt thereand you're a veteran, let us
know and love to hook you upwith Corey, so, and there's I
know there's somebody.
I'm sitting here forgetting andI apologize if you're listening
to but's uh, yeah, there is,there's a lot going on chris
(35:18):
swan is our guy in the northwestwho's leading the the different
events out here.
So if you're, if backpacking orllama packing is is your
interest, there's that, and I'dalready talked about jeff and
penny and the horse camps downin bend.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I'll stop okay, no, I understand it's trying to
remember all the people andeverything, but but if they need
to hear about it, how wouldthey find, how do they find,
cross the Divide Someone whowants to either partner with you
or support you or participatein?
Speaker 2 (35:48):
your events.
How do they find Just cross thedivide Like think of a cross
that is bridging the gap betweena divide between two sides.
That's us crossthedivideus.
And if they want to donate theycan go to the donate page.
That is huge.
If you believe in what we'redoing and want to help veterans,
(36:11):
we would love to partner withyou and have you lean into it
with us.
If you're interested in theevents, for yourself or somebody
else.
There's a contact page.
You can reach out to us throughthat.
And one of us you know we're aagain, we're a small operation
and we have no salaried staff.
We have no full timeequivalents.
Well, I'm, I work on this fulltime but I don't get paid a
(36:32):
salary.
So sometimes you know if I'mout on an event or whatever.
Our response time may not be,you know, within 24, 48 hours,
but we try.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Okay, well, great to hear I'm glad our listeners were
actually able to hear aboutyour organization, what you're
doing.
Like I said, fourth year we'vebeen working with you.
We love coming back here andit's been a blessing, I think,
both ways, absolutely.
So yes, we hope that God richlyblesses you, keeps everything
(37:01):
under his control, but that youdon't feel too overwhelmed with
it.
But yeah, we know that that'sprobably where you're headed, is
just wherever God's leading you, and we appreciate that, so
appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah, oh, this has been fun.
Love having you guys out everyyear and I feel like I learned
something in hearing Dave sharehis testimony.
I think is so powerful.
So if you haven't come out toone of these events, look them
up, get to a Blacktail Coachseminar or link up with Dave and
do some one-on-one coaching.
You won't be disappointed.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
All right, thank you, and we will talk to.
Welcome back to the Black Tail Coach Podcast.
This is Aaron, and today we arewith a special guest, emil
Bored Mo from Cross the DivideMinistries.
So we've been working with yousince I believe this is our
fourth year.
This is our fourth year, yeah,doing the class for you guys,
which the first couple of yearsI didn't make it.
I was working on Saturdays andfinally Dave and Asha said you
(00:24):
have to come up because it wasoriginally up in Poulsbo and
it's like you got to see this,which, growing up in Port
Orchard, so I'm a local boy upthere I was like, well, it's
Poulsbo, it's where I grew upand yeah, it's different when
you can get away, kind of for aweekend up there and stuff.
So we wanted to talk to youabout Cross the Divide and what
you're doing and stuff.
So why don't you tell us, startoff telling us about your
(00:47):
background and how that led youto start Cross the Divide?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Sure.
Well, first of all, for thefolks listening who aren't
familiar with it, cross theDivide is a nonprofit.
It's an outreach to veteransand their families.
Our goal is to help veteransnavigate the challenging terrain
of life you know we bring.
I like to think we we arefacilitators of hope and healing
and really transformation inpeople's lives by bringing them
(01:13):
into experiences the outdoorshunting, fishing, backpacking,
llama packing, horse camping,all these things and we apply
biblical principles to what wedo and folks who come to these
events.
They may or may not have anyparticular faith, but what they
find is that these principleswork.
(01:34):
God's truths in God's creationis a powerful equation for
success.
So Cross the Divide startedright after I retired in 2021.
So I did 28 years in the Navyand Marine Corps as a chaplain
and as I retired just to answeryour question, you know how did
this begin when I was about toretire and I was thinking what's
(01:55):
next.
You know, prayerfully trying toconsider what to lean into to
try to have an impact and otherpeople's continue to have an
impact specifically in veteranslives, because that's that's
been my passion right For threedecades and it grew up in a home
where my dad was a world wartwo combat infantry vet.
So it's been in my blood forforever.
(02:15):
Just trying to think what's thenext step and realizing that
God had also given me thispassion, this desire to do
things outdoors, I thought, well, how do we combine those two
things?
And the natural outcome wasCross the Divide.
At the same time, a buddy ofmine who is a retired Navy SEAL
called me one day and said hey,there's this property down in
(02:37):
Eastern Oregon.
There's a gal who's beenserving veterans through the
exact kind of thing that you'rewanting to do and she's looking
to sort of phase out and hand itover to somebody.
And, long story short, I wasnot able to take over the camp,
which I think was her desire.
She did a wonderful work, butwhat we were able to do is
(02:59):
through a transition ofreincorporating what she was
doing, expanding the scope fromthis one camp in Eastern Oregon
to 13 states 14 states I thinkwe've had events in now to also
make the mission a little bitmore fine-tuned to being overtly
faith-based.
(03:21):
And also her focus wasspecifically post 9-11 combat
wounded veterans, which is anamazing mission.
But we have expanded that toserve all veterans and their
families because we feel likeit's really important for
veterans to not just have agreat experience and then go
back into the family system.
That has no idea of whatthey've just experienced and a
lot of times they revert to sortof old ways of interacting.
(03:44):
So what we try to do as much aspossible is involve the
families in that experience sothat way they're having that
together, they're sharing somekind of narrative together.
That's new, that's positive,and they can sort of experience
transformation going forwardtogether as well.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
And so you've done, like couples outreach, couples
retreats as well, or couplescamps.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, great question.
Um, so that has been the desirefrom the beginning to do
marriage retreats or couplesevents and we did not do couples
events the first two years itwas mostly veterans and they
could bring their families withthem, especially like on our
hunting trips.
We did a llama packing trip forfathers and their children one
(04:30):
year, but last year was thefirst year.
We did an actual no-kiddingcouples retreat.
It was a horse camp in CentralOregon in the Bend area in the
Deschutes National Forest.
That was super popular, so much.
So we're doing two this yearExcellent.
And we've also added a marriageretreat.
We're partnering with afantastic organization called
(04:52):
Protectors Peak, run by a nowretired law enforcement officer
in northern Idaho, and we'reactually bringing in Navy SEALs
and their spouses, navy SEALveterans and their spouses, in
coordination with the Navy SEALFoundation.
And that all started because Ireached out to them when we
started four years ago and said,hey, across the divide, here's
(05:14):
what we do, here's how we canhelp.
And their response was sort oflike hey, that's great, what we
could really use is help withmarriages, and can you do that?
And I was like, yeah, andthrough a series of events we've
just been delayed until thisyear.
But we're excited.
We put the word out and withintwo weeks it was filled up.
So we're really excited aboutthat.
(05:34):
We're also looking at doing amarriage retreat in Wyoming
later this year.
Those are brand new.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Excellent.
So what year did you actuallyget your official start?
Because I was looking at thewebsite and so getting some
background information, and I'velooked at your website in the
past, but not in the context of,hey, I want to actually
interview you and get the wordout with what you're doing to
our community as well.
So when did you actually getyour start with CrossFit Advice?
(06:01):
Because it looked like therewas a shift over the last few
years.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
get your start with Cross the Divide Because it
looked like there was a shiftover the last few years.
Yeah, so that camp I wasreferring to, that this gal ran
in Eastern Oregon, was calledDivide Camp.
Cross the Divide startedJanuary of 2022.
So there was a bit of aturnover between September of 21
, when I retired, and January of22 when we actually kicked off
(06:25):
Cross the Divide.
So we reincorporated thenonprofit that she had started.
Again, new mission, also a newboard.
The board is completelyveteran-based right now, so it's
sort of organized and run byveterans for veterans kind of a
thing.
So we've been going sinceJanuary of 22 as Cross the
(06:47):
Divide.
The organization, legally asfar as the IRS is concerned, has
existed for about 11 years.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Okay, okay.
So when you talk about January2022, it's interesting because I
think it was like May or Juneof that year, we did our first
class.
Dave came up and did his firstclass with you guys, and so it's
interesting when youreincorporated in January and it
was a ministry partner with youthat actually reached out to
(07:16):
Dave or saw David at one of thesportsman shows and reached out,
and so I know when we firststarted, it was kind of a hey,
they reached out to us aboutdoing this class and so it was
like, oh okay, because we weretrying to figure out, well, how
do we work with nonprofits.
So it actually really got usfocused.
So what do we?
(07:37):
You know, because BlacktailCoach is for profit, but it's
still a ministry for us, a wayto create a community, but that
kind of pushed us, you helpedpush us into okay, what
communities are we looking toreach out to?
And so it became veterans,which is why we do veteran
discounts on all of our stuff.
(07:58):
Yeah, thanks for doing that.
But then families you know it'sanother big thing.
We want families out huntingtogether or enjoying the
outdoors together, encouragingthose.
So I know it's been a reallygreat partnership for both of us
throughout that.
So you've been expanding intostates.
I heard you talk about thatearlier, but when we were
getting started here today thatit's kind of blowing up.
(08:18):
So tell us about what you'redoing in other states and how
that's expanding.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, thanks, aaron.
So the initial vision was justto focus on Eastern Oregon and
Western Washington, which iskind of the two areas where we
had people, our primary huntingfacilitator or guide, andy
Markham, who is just an amazingindividual.
He and his whole family have agreat ministry when we bring
(08:45):
hunters and their families there.
And then I was in WesternWashington and so we started
running backpacking events outof the Olympic National Forest
National Park.
And you know, we didn't haveany money.
Well, that's not true.
We had some money that wasdedicated specifically for
backpacking events, so that wasan easy reach.
But we didn't have a lot to do.
(09:06):
A whole lot of other stuff, butvery quickly.
So the individual that you'retalking about, jeff Lander, with
Tie that Binds, or ParacleteInternational at the time, or
Paraclete Ministries, he was theone that linked us up.
So all these connectionsstarted happening.
And you know, without goingthrough the laundry list of all
these connections and it waswhat ended up happening was?
(09:28):
You know, people would ask mewell, what's your five-year plan
?
And I'm kind of like well, I'mgoing to follow God's lead on
this.
I don't feel the need to have a.
But having said that, you know,if we have events in five
states in five years, yeah,that's exciting, that's a win,
you know.
Whatever, yeah.
Well, within 10 months we hadevents in eight different states
(09:50):
and it was just one partnershipafter another.
Just things started bubblingforth and different connections
from different means, and youknow the main thing was do you
know what we're about?
Like again, god's truths andGod's creation.
You know we're trying to helpveterans navigate the
challenging terrain of life,bringing their family and if you
(10:11):
get that and not everybody's askilled facilitator, some people
are good at guiding but notgreat at facilitating, and the
facilitating part is what reallysets us apart from there's a
lot of other veteranorganization, veteran service
organizations that do similarstuff, you know.
And there's a lot of people wholove to go out and sit around a
(10:31):
campfire and drink beers andlaugh, or go out and hunt and
campfire and and drink beers andand laugh, or go out and hunt
and you're like, hey, if you canget me an elk, that's a great
thing.
Or get me a deer, like, and thatis fun.
Don't get me wrong, I mean loveto get out there and harvest
stuff myself, but but what we'reabout is so much more than that
.
So it was important to findpartners who got that part too,
like who could walk throughpeople's deep water with them,
(10:55):
not force them into the deepwater, but you know, as those
discussions happen, as we invitethem into those discussions, or
they just happen when you're ona hunt or on the river or in a
trail or whatever that they knowhow to navigate that, and so
finding the right partners hasbeen huge and we've just been so
blessed.
So we've got folks like AdamCorman in Pennsylvania, mike
(11:17):
Kramer in North Dakota, mikeStrong in Indiana, who's a
sheriff's deputy but he's also aMarine, andy Markham and Dan
Bostet in Eastern Oregon, whoare both Marines, and now
they're joined by Lyle McDonald,who's also a Marine.
We've got a lot of Marines forsome reason which they're close
to my heart.
You know my 28 years.
I spent 13 of my 28 yearsserving Marines.
(11:38):
So, and all you know Marineinfantry.
So I love, I love the devildogs, but we've had events in in
now 13 States and it's justpart of me.
Honestly, we're always wantingto grow, especially when you're
in the military, like you never.
When you're writing thenarrative for your yearly
evaluation, or in the Navy wecall them fitness reports, or
(12:00):
Army I think it's OER orwhatever.
When you're putting it like,you never want to say I did less
than I did last year, you know,because that's sort of like a
career killer.
But the reality is, sometimesyou've got to pull back and make
the foundation strong andsecure so that you can grow in a
healthy way.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And I've been telling our folks that every year, like
we need to just dial it backand focus on foundation.
And then I totally violate myown principle Because stuff
comes up right.
I mean, it's like you know whenthings.
Finally, when all the pieceslined up and we got a, I got
linked up with a recentlyretired chaplain who spent most
(12:38):
of his time on active duty withthe Navy Steels.
He was part, he was with themwhen Extortion 17 happened,
which you may not be familiarwith, but a lot of our, your
listeners, who may be familiarwith what happened when SEAL
Team 6 went down in Afghanistan.
Like he was with them.
So he's this well-knowncommodity in the SEAL community.
When he showed up and the SEALFoundation was ready to go and
(13:03):
like, how do you say no to that?
Like, how do you say no?
And at the same time, nateHarder from Protectors Peak was
like, hey, we just want to giftyou our um, our property, for
you know an event or two inNorthern Idaho.
Like, like when God basicallysays okay, I know what you're
trying to do, but I'mcoordinating all the pieces and
I'm just going to drop this inyour lap and all you literally
(13:26):
have to do is say yes.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
And take the next step.
Yeah, it's hard to you know,it's hard to say no, but that's
kind of how.
The question of how did you gofrom zero to 13 states or
whatever it's been?
It's a long story, it's a lotof networking, but it's a lot of
God-ordained providentialopportunities.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, the right guys hearing about it.
Yeah, and ladies, that'sanother thing.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
We started doing women's retreats two years ago.
A gal on our board who's aretired Air Force officer, tammy
Orton, wonderful woman who hashad her heart and invested her
time in women's ministries toveterans for years.
She started doing these forCross Divide two years ago and
(14:15):
to just to be blessed to havethese kind of connections before
I left active duty, that havepersevered past active duty and
then some of these newrelationships just in the last
few years, like with you allit's been man, I feel like I'm
on a.
I'm just on a ride and all Ihave to do is hold on and you
know I'm not the one directingit, somebody else's and it's
(14:36):
just been a blast, you know it'sone.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
It's been interesting when I hear Dave talk about
creating his system for huntingand you expect certain people to
get on board right from thestart and they weren't.
And then you have differentpeople that you didn't know
existed Basically they weren'tin your.
Then you have different peoplethat you didn't know existed
basically they weren't in yourcircle, but then they show up.
So it sounds like you've hadthese people that you weren't
(15:02):
expecting showing up.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, it's a little of both.
You know, like another guy,that he runs a trout fishing
retreat for us every year, terryBuley.
I met him when I was still onactive duty and we were just
talking one day.
He's also a financial guru andwhen he started learning he does
my, he manages my investmentsfor me, and he started asking me
(15:26):
about Cross the Divide and Iwas like, would you like to do
something?
He's like I'd love to.
So there's things like that.
But then there's people who comein out of the blue, like Dave,
like Nate Harder in NorthernIdaho, like this gentleman who
owns a ranch down in Texas Ijust met two weeks ago, who
heard about what we do and saidI want to gift you my ranch to
(15:48):
use for veterans and theirfamilies and you know whether
they're wounded veterans or goldstar families or whatever and
you just come down and use it.
I mean that's that is a giftworth.
I don't know, I don't swim inthose that that world normally,
but I'm guessing those kinds oftrips are normally like 10 to
$15,000.
So, somebody says you know, Ibelieve in your mission and what
(16:09):
you're doing and I know you'rea nonprofit, so I just want to
gift this to you.
Like those again, like you said, those providential meetings
with people I didn't even know,I wouldn't have, couldn't have
told you their names a year agoor their.
That's just been amazing to bea part of.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, really, it's just really interesting hearing
a lot about this and how thatexplosive growth cause we've
seen it as well.
But there's also that you wantto maintain the quality and so
kind of my role, amongst otherthings, is I'm the pump, the
brakes, because Asha, especiallyAsha, will go nuts with ideas.
(16:46):
Oh really, oh yes, and she hasreally great ideas.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
She's really well structured and she does such a
great job with the details too,so that's a unique balance to be
a creative idea person and alsoa detail-oriented person.
That's great.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, and I mean it's oh, I came up with a new logo
for some more T-shirts.
It's like, how about we sellthe 500 T-shirts we have and
then we come up with some newlogos, because it was a new logo
every couple of months, butthings like that.
But you know, I've been likethe, the pump, the brakes and
let's make sure this is allquality, but it's still kind of
(17:24):
blown up and even like with this, with the podcast, I do another
podcast with another friendhobby, whatever, but I'm like,
yeah, we should do one.
And then this is just blown up,which has caused everything
else to blow up, which hascaused us to think, okay, maybe
it's time that we now do some ofthose big plans that Asha came
up with that are really great,but we weren't there yet.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
So well, and you know people always talk about when
you're, when you're trying toget launched something or grow
something, that scalability andsustainability are too important
.
It sounds like the scalablepiece we've both been
experiencing in just a wonderfulway and you and I are both also
trying to keep the sustainablepart in mind because, you know,
(18:08):
I just I think of.
I mean, this is honestly, I'mreading a book now about just an
analysis of ancient culturesand politics and how that was
something that even hundreds orthousands of years ago that they
would focus on is we can't growtoo fast.
We have to make sure that theinfrastructure keeps pace with
(18:28):
the growth because if it doesn't, things are going to crumble
really quick.
And as much like I say for me,as much as I've been mindful of
that and as many things as I'vesaid no to, yeah, it's so hard
when you know you can impactpeople's lives and life is short
, like if this is a race and youknow, think of life as sort of
a race.
I feel like you and I are goingto get to the finish line one
day and we're going to go Idon't care if it's at 58 or 88
(18:51):
and we're going to look back andgo wow, that went by really
fast, you know, and I just wantto invest my time in things that
are worthwhile and going tochange people's lives.
Yeah, the other thing, you knowyou mentioned that you're a
for-profit versus a nonprofit,because I also own a business
and so I get I get both pieces.
The business kind of helps mepersonally, put food on the
(19:12):
table so I can feed my nonprofitaddiction.
So I'll tell you that's likeone big difference is that when
I have a business, I'm selling aproduct that generates income.
So you sort of have one from a30,000 foot view.
You have like one major line ofeffort and that's to create and
sell this product, and then theproduct generates the income.
(19:35):
But, when you're a nonprofit,you're serving people that does
not necessarily generate incomeand you're and you're not really
doing it to try to generateincome from the people you're
serving.
So you have this whole otherline of effort which is
traditionally been calledfundraising or partnership
development or whatever you wantto call it, and that I mean I
kind of knew that cognitivelygoing into this.
(19:55):
But that has been a huge shiftbecause the demand to step in
and help veterans in powerfulways which Cross the Divide does
like, statistically, the changewe see in people's lives, the
lack of suicidal ideations orsuicides from people who leave
Cross the Divide events, allthese things it's so powerful it
(20:15):
doesn't translate into incomenearly as readily.
It's trying to share thatnarrative with people who see
what we're doing and have apassion for what we're doing and
want to step in and say I can'tdo it, you do it, I can't do it
, but here's what I can do.
I can help make it happen byproviding you this land or this
property or with a financialdonation or volunteer time.
(20:39):
And that's where it's been achallenge, honestly, because we
are, I would say that we're thatbalance between making sure the
foundation, the infrastructure,which for us is our support
keeps pace with the growth.
That is a real challenge.
It's for every growth.
That's a real challenge is forevery nonprofit.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
It's interesting when you're talking about that.
So one of the things I wouldsay that really surprised us
most when we started this is wethought we're creating a product
and we're going to sell thisproduct it's the classes but
then all of a sudden, we startedmeeting these really great
people and this community kindof came out of what we're doing
(21:18):
and we realized and I thinkthat's what has driven home for
all of us the ministry aspect ofour work we see the community
and that's our focus.
We want guys who people women,men, husbands, wives, families,
just all of that.
We want that community to grow.
(21:39):
We want, you know, people tofeed off of each other and it's,
you know, it's amazing whenguys who go through different
courses connect with each otheron Facebook and start having
lunch and start getting togetherand become friends and, yeah,
that that ends up being the realblessing for all this.
It's great having lots ofpeople show up to the events,
but when we see this communitycome together, that's it.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, that's really fulfilling, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, because otherwise it's something that if
it weren't for that community,I think, if things didn't go
well we recently had changeswith the state, with baiting and
with doing cents it would havebeen easier to walk away.
Well, it's just a business,it's a side business for all of
us, we could walk away.
(22:25):
But when it's that community,it's that obligation of no, we
want to.
We want to stick with thesegroup of people we've put
together.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, and I mean, and I use the word obligation and I
know, and that's that may betrue, but I know what you mean
is it's more than just a oughtto, it's a want to like like
it's an obligation, because youfeel this.
You know that it is incrediblyfulfilling for the people that
like to just give them knowledgeis is worthwhile and there's
(22:54):
some fulfillment in that, butfor them to be part of a
community is where the realfulfillment for them comes in,
and for you, yeah, but you seethat you know that's where the
power is, and so you and youcare about that's really what it
comes down to.
You care about these people,which is maybe a weird thing to
say for somebody who's quoteselling a product, but I know
you guys do.
You care about the folks whoare listening to this podcast,
(23:17):
who come to your seminars, whodo the coaching, who buy your
product, et cetera, et cetera,and and that's why you do that
you know it's and it's.
I'll tell you we I mentionedthis trip to Texas.
I could tell a guy who came on ahunt three years ago and he and
I served together in 2-7, 2ndBattalion, 7th Marines, and he
(23:40):
ended up losing a leg due to anIED that he hit in Afghanistan
in 2008.
But he came out on a hunt.
That, in and of itself, is afantastic story.
If you ever want to go on ourYouTube channel you can see it's
the Ty Woods Memorial Hunt withMaster Sergeant Gabe Guest.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I actually did watch that Okay.
Yeah, because it's been up forabout a year.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
A few years.
Yeah, oh, a few years Okay.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
I watched it, I believe after the show left
Right on.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
So he's not only just a wonderful human being but
he's a good friend and we wantto get him out there.
But like a lot of our folks whogo through combat, who are
leaders of war fighters incombat, you know he came back
with a lot of not just physicalbut personal challenges he was
working through and to hear himat the end of those four days,
(24:28):
after having some real struggles, say this is the most alive I
felt in 14 years, that was oneof the most meaningful things.
So we go to Texas a coupleweeks ago and Gabe is actually
the guy that introduced me tothis rancher just outside of San
Antonio.
So we went kind of a long wayaround to visit with Gabe and
his wife and I brought all ofour participants for that event
(24:52):
with me so they could meet him.
For what you're saying, it'slike we're not just going to
have an event Like I want you tobe part of this cross the
divide family and I want you toto see the impact of what we do
on a, on an individual like Gabe, and have him tell you directly
his story and help Cause.
A lot of the folks that werecoming on this event were our
(25:13):
guides and facilitators fromaround the country.
So these were part of the crossthe divide team our guides and
facilitators from around thecountry.
So these were part of the Crossthe Divide team and I wanted
them to understand like this,exactly what you just said.
This is about changing people'slives and it's about building
community.
It's not about just doing areally cool thing for a day or
for four days and then sayingsee ya, and wasn't that fun.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
It's so much more than that.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, and we tell people at the end of our classes
it's, we don't teach a classand kick you to the curb.
You're part of this communityand so, yeah, be part of the
community Right on, as much oras little as they want, but you
know it's your participation,we're not determining that.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, Well, and you and Dave and Asha are such
wonderful, personable people.
I hope the folks listening toyour podcast really understand
what you're saying and take youup on that offer, cause it's
that's I think that's where thereal power comes in.
You know, whatever, whether youknow, it's more than about just
hunting.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah and again.
So you know we have five prostaff.
Two of them were people thatDave knew before starting this
company.
One of them was actually one ofthe guys who was in his youth
group, and there's a lot ofother guys who are, you know,
we're texting all the time backand forth and they're asking
(26:42):
questions and just checking inwith each other and it's like I
said, it's the community is whatreally.
We've been blown away by all ofthat.
So I want to talk about, likeyour favorite outdoor
experiences, my background.
I grew up hiking.
In fact, it was reallyinteresting when you talked
about doing the hiking trips upin the Olympic mountains.
That's where I got my startedBoy Scouts.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
You know, 40 years ago was hiking the Olympic
mountains.
What are your favorite outdooractivities that you like to do,
that you just love doing?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
You know, growing up my favorite two outdoor
activities were bass fishing andbackpacking.
It wasn't until I was gosh 40,maybe 40, early 40s that a
friend of mine, mike Williams,who's still on active duty, and
another buddy of mine, bruceCrowderfield, who retired.
(27:34):
They're both bow hunters andMike said to me he goes, you
really enjoy backpacking thatmuch.
I'm like, yeah, and I'm like,why?
Why do you ask like that?
He goes.
Well, honestly, most peopledon't enjoy just living out of
the backpack for days on end.
I'm like, really Like.
I mean, it was, it was puzzlingto me, cause I'm like why
wouldn't you Right?
But then I was like okay, beinga little bit older, with, as you
(27:55):
know, some aches and pains, itactually makes more sense now.
But some people just don'tenjoy it, right?
So he goes, you like hunting?
I'm like I've never you knownever been hunting.
You know, grew up in an areawhere there wasn't a whole lot
of opportunity hunting.
I said, but I think I would.
He goes you should try bowhunting.
I'm like, really why?
And he just kind of explained,like, if you think you'd enjoy
(28:23):
hunting and you like gettingdeep in the woods, you should
try.
And he explained why.
And it just sounded so cool tome.
Next opportunity I had, I boughta bow, started putting, you
know, arrows through targets, Istarted learning everything I
could, uh, self-teaching.
And then I went online and Ifound somebody to go hunting
with.
My wife was a little concerned.
She's like so you're goinghunting with my wife was a
little concerned.
She's like so you're goinghunting with this guy and you've
never met him and you don'teven know who he is.
Yeah, well, where'd you findhim?
Well, it was some online forum,you know.
(28:44):
She's like she.
You know, to her it was like Iwent on Craigslist and found a
date and I'm about to getmurdered or something I'm like.
Well, you know, most huntersaren't that type A or people who
do this and B.
You know, I've got a weapon onme too, so I don't think he's
going to be those kinds ofpeople.
Look for soft targets, not hardtargets, right?
So anyway.
(29:05):
So it ended up being awonderful experience, and he and
I hunted for a few yearstogether before life kind of
took us in different directions.
And we got into elk every yearin Western Washington.
I don't think I realized thatit wasn't supposed to be that
easy until later, as I talkedwith more and more people yeah,
Even these two guys, Bruce andMike, that got me into bow
(29:27):
hunting when I told them like,like, getting into deer, getting
into elk every year in WesternWashington which, as you know,
is harder because we're talkingthick, steep stuff, black-tailed
deer and Roosevelt elk, whichhave gotten quieter and quieter
over the years.
And so when I told them like oh, yeah, I'm getting into animals
, they're like, you realizethat's not necessarily the norm.
(29:50):
I'm like, oh, you know, yeah,listening to a bull bugle at 30
yards away and having itreverberate through your being,
there's nothing like it.
So I would say, at the top ofthat list nowadays is bull
hunting.
Unfortunately, my body ismaking it harder and harder for
(30:10):
me to get out there and do thatkind of deep backcountry stuff.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, and that's I mean.
Actually that's why Dave had tostart this system.
He got Lyme's disease and hetalks about this a lot that he
can't do the high country, thebackcountry stuff anymore
Although his son is getting intothat and he went in with a
friend last year.
Miles in his friend got an elkand he's young enough and strong
(30:37):
enough and fit enough to do twoor three trips back and forth
hauling that elk out.
And I'm like, okay, I likeDave's system because I've been
hunting two years now.
I've done bird hunting in thepast, but I was like I can't do
that, I don't really want to dothat and yeah, it's interesting
backpacking and for me it wassaltwater fishing on the.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Puget Sound.
That's what I grew up doing.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Not really hunting, although there were lots of
great habitat back then and youcould actually get into the
woods.
They weren't all gated and allthat, but across the divide.
So what other events do youhave coming up?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah.
So this year we've got a llamapacking.
We typically do between one tofour llama packing trips a year,
so we've got that coming up.
We've got.
We were planning on doinginitially two horse camps, again
a marriage or a couple's horsecamp and a men's horse camp, but
we wanted to add a woman'shorse camp and so this year
(31:34):
we're actually just got to againthe whole thing of like not
doing, not over committing,right.
So I just got off the phoneyesterday with Jeff Campbell.
He and his wife Penny,wonderful people, salt of the
earth, people down there in Bend, oregon, with stirrup purpose,
who do our horse camps for us.
They're planning on, they'relike, well, let's do five.
And I'm like Jeff, just so youknow I didn't budget for five,
(31:56):
I'm like I've budgeted for two,but he's like that's all right,
he's like you know, he's likeyou know that helps a lot.
But you know we just we lovethese.
They're just wonderful peopleand veterans that have gone on
those events just come backsupercharged and changed.
We've got, I mentioned, themarriage retreat for Navy SEALs
(32:17):
in Northern Idaho.
We've got the one in Wyomingthat is under development.
We do one-on-one and group flyfishing trips in Pennsylvania,
which also has turned intoWestern Virginia.
We've got a hunt for heroes wedo for four veterans in November
in Indiana.
We do a pheasant hunting trip,multi-day trip, every year in
(32:39):
North Dakota with Mike Kramer.
He also kind of does stuff inthe evening with everybody, just
kind of you know quote unquotecampfire conversations, but
they're indoors so there's nocampfire.
We've got the trout fishing.
In fact if you're anywhere nearArkansas and you'd like to go
on the trout fishing retreat,that is in October and that is a
fairly new date as well, so letus know.
(32:59):
We'd love to hook you up withTerry Buley down there.
We've got a ton of hunts inEastern Oregon.
Most of those are already fullbecause we kind of have to
identify hunters soon.
But and then in WesternWashington we have I don't have
the dates on me, but we've alsogot things you know like
backpacking type trips andrustic retreats.
We've got another place thatalso has donated their their
(33:21):
retreat site a bunch of cabinsthere in the in the foot of the
Olympic national forest.
It's just, yeah, I'm.
I know I'm missing something,because I told you how many
States we've had stuff in, butwe've got a lot going on.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Keep the whole calendar in your head.
Even we have a limited calendarand it's still wait a minute.
When is that?
What are we doing?
So, yeah, I get that, but ifpeople wanted to find out about
these events, whether people whowant to partner with us, I got
to tell you one more thing.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And he's probably listening to me right If he's
hearing this podcast.
He's like I can't believeyou've totally forgotten me.
So Corey Watson, who helped usget our tags in Oregon for years
, he moved to Tennessee about ayear ago, started Cross, the
Divide, tennessee.
It has exploded.
He's got I mean, he's fullyretired from the Army and Marine
(34:14):
Corps and he did both.
But this is what he focuses onand he is amazing.
He gets folks on deer and pigand take some bass fishing and
we've got a track chair thereand in Eastern Oregon and so we
had a Vietnam veteran whocouldn't walk, get out there and
harvest a deer in a track chairand he said this was the first
deer he's harvested since he gotback from Vietnam.
(34:37):
He's like I've gone out withother organizations and they
just kind of other these veteranservice organizations.
They're nice, he's like, butthey just kind of stick me out
and say have fun.
He's like this is the firsttime I've actually had somebody
stay with me, mentor me throughit, help me with everything from
you know, load me up to tofield, dress in the animal, to
(34:57):
everything, and that's whatCorey and he's yeah, corey is an
amazing.
Again, if you are anywhere nearor could get to Tennessee and
would like to go on a hunt thereand you're a veteran, let us
know and love to hook you upwith Corey, so, and there's I
know there's somebody.
I'm sitting here forgetting andI apologize if you're listening
to but's uh, yeah, there is,there's a lot going on chris
(35:18):
swan is our guy in the northwestwho's leading the the different
events out here.
So if you're, if backpacking orllama packing is is your
interest, there's that, and I'dalready talked about jeff and
penny and the horse camps downin bend.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I'll stop okay, no, I understand it's trying to
remember all the people andeverything, but but if they need
to hear about it, how wouldthey find, how do they find,
cross the Divide Someone whowants to either partner with you
or support you or participatein?
Speaker 2 (35:48):
your events.
How do they find Just cross thedivide Like think of a cross
that is bridging the gap betweena divide between two sides.
That's us crossthedivideus.
And if they want to donate theycan go to the donate page.
That is huge.
If you believe in what we'redoing and want to help veterans,
(36:11):
we would love to partner withyou and have you lean into it
with us.
If you're interested in theevents, for yourself or somebody
else.
There's a contact page.
You can reach out to us throughthat.
And one of us you know we're aagain, we're a small operation
and we have no salaried staff.
We have no full timeequivalents.
Well, I'm, I work on this fulltime but I don't get paid a
(36:32):
salary.
So sometimes you know if I'mout on an event or whatever.
Our response time may not be,you know, within 24, 48 hours,
but we try.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Okay, well, great to hear I'm glad our listeners were
actually able to hear aboutyour organization, what you're
doing.
Like I said, fourth year we'vebeen working with you.
We love coming back here andit's been a blessing, I think,
both ways, absolutely.
So yes, we hope that God richlyblesses you, keeps everything
(37:01):
under his control, but that youdon't feel too overwhelmed with
it.
But yeah, we know that that'sprobably where you're headed, is
just wherever God's leading you, and we appreciate that, so
appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah, oh, this has been fun.
Love having you guys out everyyear and I feel like I learned
something in hearing Dave sharehis testimony.
I think is so powerful.
So if you haven't come out toone of these events, look them
up, get to a Blacktail Coachseminar or link up with Dave and
do some one-on-one coaching.
You won't be disappointed.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
All right, thank you, and we will talk to.
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