June 2, 2025 • 40 mins
Unlock the secret advantage that consistently successful hunters rarely talk about – the strategic use of data. Aaron and Dave pull back the curtain on how scientific information, personal observations, and community knowledge can transform your hunting success while most hunters leave these resources completely untapped.
The conversation reveals how state wildlife biologists are an underutilized gold mine of information. When approached with genuine interest and courtesy, these professionals often share specific locations and timing details that lead directly to trophy animals. One conversation with a biologist put Dave "right on" a trophy bull moose when other hunters were struggling to even locate animals in the early season heat.
You'll discover how interpreting trail camera data requires a different mindset than most hunters apply. Summer patterns rarely translate to fall hunting scenarios, particularly for mature bucks who typically remain in small core areas until the rut begins. Instead of focusing on capturing buck images in summer, learn why documenting doe patterns provides more valuable intelligence for when hunting season arrives.
The hosts explore critical metrics from state wildlife reports that predict hunting quality, particularly calf and fawn survival rates. Their discussion of predator impacts includes a sobering example from Eastern Oregon, where changing management policies resulted in calf survival plummeting to just 11%, decimating a once-thriving elk population of nearly a thousand animals.
Whether you're a blacktail fanatic or pursue other big game species, this episode delivers actionable insights on using harvest statistics, wildlife management plans, and community knowledge to stack the odds in your favor. For hunters serious about consistent success, it's time to embrace the power of data alongside traditional woodsmanship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron and I'm Dave.
This week we're talking aboutusing data for your hunts.
I come up from a fieldeducation that is very
data-driven.
When we do something, we'realways saying what does the data
say?
What is it telling me?
What should be my response towhat data I've collected?
(00:24):
And so I think that with thecoaching, with the classes, this
is all new stuff that we'vekind of introduced from the
black tail coach into thehunting community, education and
classes and coaching, and nowwe're talking about using data.
So it's a foreign concept, Ithink, for a lot of just in this
(00:44):
particular field.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Oh yeah, I would absolutely agree.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
But I would say it's just a lot of my way of thinking
and Asha's way of thinking thatwe've kind of introduced to you
, but I think, a lot of hunters.
This is all natural.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
We're just kind of giving a name to what you
probably are already doing, ismy guess well, I I don't know if
I to some extent, to someextent I think that that a lot
of the, the stuff that we goover, is basically a lot of it's
an untapped resource, to behonest with you yeah as far as
reaching out to game biologistsand whatnot, not a lot of guys
(01:24):
do that.
You know, and and and honestlyyou're, you're really ignoring a
great source of information.
Every time I go on anout-of-state hunt, especially if
I'm going on an out-of-stateelk hunt, I mean, now you know
we, if we're in grizzly country,just the simplest stuff,
contacting the game biologistswhere the grizzlies in that area
(01:44):
, you know, because typically,like Montana, they know, they
know exactly that those, thosebears have either been tagged or
they keep an eye on thembecause the human interaction
and encounters, you know, andthey just try and keep tabs on
those bears and and and.
That's another thing.
You know, you've heard me sayit.
I don't like hunting in areaswhere my head has to be on a
swivel the whole time.
Yeah, you know, you've heard mesay it.
I don't like hunting in areaswhere my head has to be on a
(02:05):
swivel the whole time.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
And so, because it's hard forme to relax and yeah, that's
just a resource right there, youknow, and that's just the tip
of the iceberg.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
As far as game biology, yeah, and I know
especially for for guys whomight be hunting sort of off
topic but in grizzly country,knowing where they're at,
especially if you're riflehunting, because that rifle is a
dinner bell.
Yeah, we've heard so manystories that especially guys who
go up to Alaska and they shootand it is a race to get that
(02:37):
deer out of there.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Right, you know.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Right Field dress and back on the boat if they're
doing like Sitka and they'reisland hopping or you know where
they're boating in Just to getout of there, because as soon as
that gun goes off, any bearwithin earshot is coming in.
Right right, yeah to find that.
But so first there's stateresources that we have access to
(03:01):
, and you just touched on it thegame biologist.
So tell us some of yourexperience about using
biologists, both locally and outof state, or out of area hunts,
because it's not just for outof state, you could be calling
them for local hunts too ifyou're a new area, but tell us
about how you've used them.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, for instance, we went hunting Idaho one time
and I remember we reached out tothe game biologist and just
because it was a new area, we'dnever been there and they were
telling us, well, we startedasking about the elk numbers, we
started asking about successrate in certain units, we
started asking where do you feelis the highest concentration?
(03:45):
Where is the greatest cow tobull ratio?
That kind of stuff.
And then, on the flip side ofthe coin, I can think of a moose
hunt where we were just overthere and we spoke to several
game biologists.
Where have you seen, you know,especially with my buddy Kirk he
drew the tag over in northeastWashington, it was my buddy Kirk
, he drew the tag over innortheast Washington and early
(04:06):
season, those moose, they're alot harder to find in September
than they are in November.
Really, yeah, you get snow onthe ground and those moose they
come down out of the highercountry and they're just there.
I mean, it's a school bus onthe side of a hill.
Oh yeah, yeah, you know what Imean.
They're just monstrous.
(04:30):
But all the foliage is down andyou can see a lot more.
But you know, when all thecovers up and everything they're
, they're really difficultsometimes to find.
And yeah, we just tapped intothe game by this, where you've
been seeing them.
If you've seen any good bulls,any big bulls, and you know
where, where would you go?
What would?
What area do you think weshould concentrate on?
And because of that, we weresuccessful in September, and you
know.
And then we go on social mediaand I'm, you know, because of
(04:51):
the pro staff part of it, I'm onsocial media a lot you know,
always every day and lookingthings over, and I think I don't
think I saw anyone else andthat's not to say that anyone
wasn't successful but not onsocial media.
You know, during that time itwas a really, really hot
September and we went over andwe got it done Opening weekend
(05:12):
and I attribute a lot of that tothe game biologists.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Game biologists.
Yeah, just pointing you in theright direction you know, and
that's a lot of it.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
you know that's big when you go into an area and you
don't know where to start.
Yeah, you it you know that's,that's, that's big, when you go
into an area and you don't knowwhere to start.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
It kind of gives you get yourfeet under you and helps you get
off to a good start that was.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
That hunt was kind of funny because I knew more of
where to go than I think you didbecause yeah I take.
You know, I used to yearly takea road trip and go Highway 20
between I think it's Tenasket,through Republic out towards
Kettle Falls Uh-huh, and I don'tknow if it's, I think it's two
(05:55):
miles.
It's either two miles beforeKettle Falls or two miles before
Republic.
There is a little turnout bythe side of the road and if you
pull into that there's a pond bythe road.
Every time I've gone by thereit's been like three different
times I've seen moose.
I've seen five moose in thatlittle pond or on the hillside
(06:17):
behind the pond, and so I said Ijust go there.
And you were actually I don'tknow few miles away from right
from that particular spot, butit was, yeah, it was kind of
funny hey, I know where to goget some moose not even 100.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I know, I know where one of those guys just doesn't
know anything but talks like Ido yeah yeah, I get to share in
that.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
But have you used them ever?
Used them for your hunts likeKellett's Lewis down here?
Yeah, yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
One of my hunting partners is an absolute.
He's an engineer and I mean heloves this stuff.
He loves, you know, getting thenumbers and going over it and
and you know he's the guy thatthat when we're going, and you
know he's the guy that that whenwe're going to put in out of
state, he's going to, he's goingto crunch the numbers and, you
know, come back with three,three units or three tags we
(07:12):
should put in for and ones weshouldn't waste our time on and
all this stuff.
But yeah, locally absolutely,and a lot of it's got to do
because I'm looking for bigblack tail bucks, and so I
contact them and I ask themspecific questions.
You know what county, whatareas had the most rainfall?
(07:32):
Because, that's always coincideswith the best antler growth.
What area did the state recordcome out of?
What area has the highestpercentage of bucks over three
point harvested?
What area has the highestpercentage of bucks over four
point harvested?
What area you know has theleast amount of bucks over a
four point harvested?
(07:53):
You know, and then it's like,well, why is that you start?
It's a puzzle that you have toput together.
You have to start thinking aboutokay, why are these successful
here?
Why are they not successful?
And those are the questions youask that game boss, because
they can tell you that too.
We feel that this is becausethey're doing this or because of
this going on in this area, orthey have this habitat, or
(08:15):
whatever.
This is why these hunters arebeing successful there, and they
can tell you about spots thatare up and coming.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And I imagine it's also something where they could
tell you.
You like you don't know anybodywho's pulled a buck out of a
certain area, or it just seemslike it's a dud of an area,
right, but it might be becauseof topography or something, but
there are huge bucks in thereright, right.
The harvest rate may be real,but the caliber of buck coming
out of there is really good, youknow, especially, I could think
(08:49):
, if there's not a lot of recentlogging and so there's not a
lot of clear cuts, for guys togo hunt the clear cuts, if
that's what they're choosing todo, or if it's an area where
they can't do not spot and stalk, but driving road hunting you
know, just driving along theroads and looking for something
like that, not a lot of accessto it, yeah, and there's, just
(09:11):
there really isn't a lot ofaccess for road hunting like
there used to be, because youknow gates
and logging companies have gatedoff most of the woods, so have
you had?
Have you seen them be really,really specific, like if you go
two miles down this road and oneridge over and oh, absolutely,
(09:35):
they can get.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
yeah, you don't want them as a hunting partner okay,
yeah they're.
They're not going to keep anysecrets, but a lot of them, and
and what I would say to guys is,if you're going to tap into
your game biologist number onefirst and foremost, be patient.
Be patient because they're busypeople.
They don't always get back toyou right away, but when they
get back to you, be courteous,be kind, and they're going to
(09:56):
pour out a lot of information onyou.
So be ready to take notes andreally listen to what they're
telling you.
And I've always found that ifyou just strike up a
conversation and just kind ofokay, so how long you been doing
this kind of stuff, and you getthem on your side, they're
really apt to tell you exactlywhere they've seen A good.
(10:18):
For instance, is that moosehunt?
They put us on a giant.
They told us the exact timberpatch where that bull and he had
two cows were hanging out andeverything.
and, and what was funny isbecause they didn't, they didn't
relinquish that, thatinformation right up front yeah
but because my buddy struck up aconversation with them and was
(10:40):
just being friendly and justtalking with them, one of them
goes.
You know what?
I wasn't going to tell anyonethis, but here's, we saw this
one yesterday and it's just atoad, just a monster.
They put us right on it,dropped us right in the lap of
that bull.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Nice Because, yeah, it didn't take you too long to
Opening weekend.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yeah, you got them pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And then it was 24 hours of trying to cut that
thing.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Oh my gosh, that was a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
So, as far as you know you might not know this or
not game biologists do they haveaccess to all lands.
Is it built in for, I would say, say, the, the timber companies
?
They're gated, but does wdfwget keys to those gates so that
they can go in there if that.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
That's something I don't know for sure, aaron, I'm
sure they probably do I'm surethey probably do, you know yeah,
I can't imagine them not havingyou know, because then then
poachers could just stay on thetimberland and never get busted,
you know.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
So I would think that they have access in there.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Well, as far as any studies or anything like that,
if they're going to for them tobe able to go back in there yeah
.
For the biologists, the gamewardens, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Habitat restoration projects and stuff like that.
For the biologists, the gamewardens, I imagine.
Habitat restoration projectsand stuff like that, yeah, which
?
Speaker 1 (12:05):
you know, makes you want to go be a game biologist.
No, I'm just back here doingthe study with my rifle, with my
bow, during season.
Nothing to see here.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It's weird, nobody else is back here.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Using the old Jedi mind trick.
These aren't the huntinggrounds you're looking for yeah
exactly so.
Now I imagine this is true forother states, but for Washington
WDFW their website they have awhole page that talks about just
everything about the numbersand what the harvest rates are
(12:42):
and everything.
So they have game Status andTrends Report.
So this is a 545-page report onall species that they put out,
but it's Annual Status and TrendReport for Game Species
Populations in Washington.
For major species, separatesections cover each region or
other management unit.
(13:02):
That's cut and paste that fromthe website.
But that just covers.
It's broken down into differentdistricts and it just it gets
in there and just talks aboutthat area.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
And what's coming out of that area.
So I'm sure this is all stuffthat they're putting like the
biologists are having some inputwith putting these together.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
They just give credit to.
Wdfw is the author of thisreport.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
But there's game harvest reports and these
provide annual hunting andtrapping statistics for elk,
deer, cougar, black bear and itsays small game, but I didn't
see small game on the website,so when I start looking at that
and this is a big one, guys, anda lot of guys don't think about
this Knowing that we have apredator problem what you guys
(13:54):
really need to start focusing onand really start looking at is
your calf and fawn survival rate.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
That is the telltale sign of how that unit is going
to go.
If that survival rate drops low, then you know that hunting in
that area is going to startgoing down.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
I saw something and that's what's great about
dialing into these reports andreally finding out those details
but I saw something.
I think overall it's 0.5.
But that's assuming two fawnsare born to every doe every year
and 0.5 survival rate.
(14:35):
So basically one out of the twofawns will survive, which was
true on one of my sets of a doe.
I had her on camera with twofawns and after three, four
months months she only had onefawn hanging around with her.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
I used to hunt a spot over in eastern oregon for elk
and talking with the biologiststhat area, that that specific
area where we were, was thecalving grounds for the entire
unit.
All the elk in that unit, theysaid, would come down into that
valley and calve down there, andso we would go out in the
spring and just wanting to getover there, get out in the woods
(15:11):
and that kind of stuff, and youwould pull it and you would see
hundreds and hundreds andhundreds of head of elk in that
valley because they were calvingand they did their studies in
there and they would tag 300plus calves and then they would
monitor those calves to see whatthe survival rate was.
And as soon as I mean as soonas they started saying, okay,
(15:33):
there's no hound hunting forbears, no baiting for bears, you
can't run hounds on cats, youstarted seeing that survival
rate going down, down, down andmy friends, you know the people
that I was hunting with at thattime were just like, yeah, we
need to keep going back, we needto keep going back when I was
noticing that we were fillingfewer and fewer tags.
you know we were seeing fewerand fewer elk, we were hearing
(15:57):
fewer and fewer bulls and it wasgetting harder and harder every
year to locate the animals, youknow.
And so I asked the gamebiologists you know well what's
the calf survival rate here?
And this absolutely floored me.
But they said, okay.
So we tagged over 300, wemonitored over 300 for the year,
(16:18):
the survival rate, out of somenumber like 375 or something
like that, and they said thesurvival rate for that year was
11.
And I just thought to myselfthat's unsustainable.
And now you go over there inthat valley when they're calving
and you don't see I don't thinkyou see a hundred head of elk
in that valley anymore.
(16:38):
And when we first started goingthere, literally you were
seeing 700 to a thousand head ofelk.
It was just insane the numberof elk that were there.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And now it's not there, you know, as the
predators have come and it's thewolves also moving into the
area, the wolves also moving in,so they've tipped that balance
so far one way that there's justno survival rate on the calves.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Well, that's your future.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So it's interesting because they introduced them and
I ended up doing the math.
I think I saw a commentsomebody made.
It caused me to start lookinginto the numbers.
This might be going a littleoff topic, but it's talking
about the wolves and in Idahothere were 1,541 wolves and this
was when they were trying tocull 90% of the wolves.
(17:23):
They were giving out tags.
They wanted 90% of the wolvesgone, so they basically wanted
to get it down to about 160wolves.
So I thought well, how many elkdo wolves eat?
Do 1,541 wolves eat a year?
How many are they killing?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
27,000 elk a year.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
That's just crazy.
And so then it's just lookingat well, what's the replacement
for in Idaho for the elk herds?
You know, if there's, for theherds to grow, they have to be
producing more than 27,000 elk ayear.
New calves, right?
No, it wasn't even close.
(18:03):
And so, yeah, of course they'regoing to start dwindling and
then it becomes well, then it'sbig financial, but anyway,
getting off topic here, but it'sjust interesting.
But you can find out all thisinformation and these trends by
(18:23):
just jumping online.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, it's all there.
It's all public knowledge.
And that takes me to another.
You know people want to stopand talk about.
You know, the CWD and all thisother stuff.
Guys, all that information thatyou need to know, stop guessing
.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Stop guessing and stop making accusations.
Go online, read about it.
Be an informed hunter.
If you're going to protest,protest with facts, because when
you protest and you don't havethe facts, we look ignorant.
It doesn't help our cause.
We need to be educated on theseissues.
You know, and it's right thereon the websites.
(19:01):
You see all the numbers.
When you go to my seminars, Igive a ton of information on
deer behavior and studies andall this it's all off of those
websites, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, and reading through it.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, it's not exciting reading, but I'm
telling you when you're thinkingabout trophy animals every year
when you're thinking, andthat's the difference the guy
that gets a trophy animal everyyear, as far as a let me
rephrase it A guy that gets arecord book buck every year, is
a guy that thinks about thatrecord book buck 11 out of 12
(19:35):
months.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, at least you know, and he's thinking big
picture.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, year round.
He's always focused on her,she's always focused on it, you
know.
And so if you want something,you got to work for it.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So it's interesting.
So I pulled up the statewide2024 statewide black bear
harvest statistics.
So this last year 1800 totalblack bears were harvested.
So I don't know, and I mean Icould go, hey, siri, how many
black bears are in Washingtonstate and it would tell me, and
so this would tell me overallhow many are out there 1,800 is
not a lot.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, that's nothing.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Guys go hunt bear, and that might be where people
think that they have to go outto the coast to get a bear,
things like that, because thecoastal region is where the most
get harvested.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
But the success rate is 6% to 12%.
I think guys are holding outfor big ones too, and the
reality is hey, you get two beartags.
Go kill the first thing you seeand then hunt a big one.
Yeah, you know what I mean wegot to do something yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Wow, take your kids out.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
That way you can let them shoot a couple.
There you go.
Wow, take your kids out.
That way you can let them shoota couple.
There you go, there you go.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
But anyway, just pulling up randomly and I knew
that it was really low because Ihad looked at this information
below.
But just now, while you weretalking, I pulled up the WDFW
website and looked at that.
I was like out of this and Idon't know what this particular
area encompasses, butconsidering there's nine bear
(21:07):
management units for the wholestate in one ninth, 15 bears,
you know that's.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Golly.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, like you said, it's no wonder we got a bear
problem.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
You know, the next closest was Blue Mountains and
there's not a huge populationout there.
They had 92 harvests.
Everywhere else is close to 250to 300.
A few places had a couple ofhundred.
So this is the information thatyou're finding from the website
.
So you got game status andtrends reports, game harvest
(21:42):
reports, which means if only 15were harvested, harvested, there
probably is a lot more outthere oh my gosh and because
we're we're not taking them out.
What else is if, if huntersaren't?
right so, and then you have gamemanagement planning.
So these are.
So what it says is the gamemanagement plan serves as
(22:05):
guidance for three-year seasonsetting cycle and any annual
adjustment in hunting seasons.
These timeframes are adopted sothat hunters have consistent
hunting seasons and managers cansee how wildlife populations
respond to the hunting framework.
Seasons are adjusted annuallyto address local conditions.
So all of that available.
(22:26):
Wdfw, or you know, if you're inOregon, Canada, I'm sure has
the same type of informationavailable to you Alaska, every
state.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Oh, absolutely, has this type of information
available?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
to you.
They all have game biologistsso you know good, good source to
check those out.
So that biologist and thewebsite is really that's where
you do your research, you know,because it might pinpoint you to
a certain area, you know, usingthose two, resources,
absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Like I said, it's really untapped in comparison to
the number of hunters out there.
There are very few hunters thatuse that resource, and I mean
you, you know.
A fine example is I go back tothat moose hunt.
Put us right on that bull righton that bull.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah, just took a little finesse to?
yeah, just a little talk get theguy to open up.
So then there's your own datathat you're collecting and you
know and I'm calling it data,but it's just like scouting.
You know and I'm calling itdata, but it's just like
scouting.
You know what.
What are you seeing?
What data?
Am I seeing tracks?
Am I seeing signs, things likethat, and that's that is giving
(23:36):
you information.
What's in the area, like youcan you've talked about the size
of the track will tell you thesize of the buck or if it's a
buck or a doe.
There you go, data collection,just walking around the woods.
Plus, you get to walk around inthe woods, which there's
nothing wrong with that, but youknow you can collect data on
(23:56):
winds prevailing versus thermals.
You know time of day, best wayinto your set.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And especially and this was and I talked about this
a couple episodes ago about oneof my sets I really got to
figure out the wind and is itone that I have to go in in the
morning, regardless if I'm goingto hunt that set because of how
I think the winds are going toreact later on in the afternoon,
when you know things startheating up or sun or something
(24:26):
like that, which isn't, it mightnot be as much of an issue, but
it still could be.
Yep, but like going out thereand hanging out all day and with
my wind check and and andseeing what's what's happening
out there, best way in and doingthe wind checks for all that.
But then trail cameras.
So what's the data you shouldbe gleaning from trail cams?
(24:50):
Like, if you're putting themout now and you've been pretty
open, you don't put them outuntil right before season, right
, right, because you have your,your spots right and, like last
year, I had them out all summerI had I won't say had them out.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
I had one out all summer and in a spot that a new
spot that I'd found and guys,many of you guys heard about the
locker room and everything andI just wanted to catalog what
was in there and I was gettinggreat picks and everything and
was able to watch them.
And I would say I did the samething with Lucky in that area
(25:24):
Totally different outcome onthat one as far as the number of
picks that I got.
I think I saw Lucky in thatbuck two times in three years in
the summer and that was it.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
That was it.
And very few deer picks at all.
A lot of bear, Very, very fewdeer picks.
Locker room tons of deer picks.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
No bear, no bear, whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, and it just.
You know some areas are likethat and whatnot, but typically
I don't put them out until justbefore season.
But I get it.
Guys want to.
They want to see deer, you know.
You know they want thatgratification of knowing that
they did all this hiking andthey're in an area where there's
deer.
And I would just say this guys,don't put a lot of weight in
that during the summer.
As far as picks in thesummertime, we're not hunting
(26:15):
them in the summer, you know.
So where they summer and wherethey winter are two different
spots inside that range.
And in the summertime, just bemore apt to be looking for, does
you know?
And because come the time whenwe get to go hunt them, where
the does are is where the bucksare going to be.
So if you don't get buck picksthroughout the summer, no big
(26:37):
deal, don't sweat it, don't getworried over it.
No, I haven't seen a big one.
I haven't that's all right,because you can't hunt that buck
in the summer seen a big one?
I haven't that's all right,because you can't hunt that buck
in the summer.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
In the summertime he's somewhere where he's not
going to be when hunting seasoncomes, you know so I think we
talked about it last year howyou had the locker room and
chris had field of dreams andyou were getting big buck picks,
like all summer yeah, and thatjust doesn't happen all the time
but that was.
That was throwing out a kind ofa almost the wrong message and
(27:12):
it was great that you weregetting those.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
But like everybody was white, getting upset because
they weren't getting big buckpicks or hey, where do I?
You know, should I put it outnow?
And and even now, guys comingup to me because they they saw
those picks.
Okay, I gotta get my camera out, I gotta get my camera out.
I got to get my camera out.
You're just like no, no, youdon't.
So you're right, it was kind ofteaching them the wrong thing.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
And the locker room, public land landlocked, so those
deer aren't going anywhere.
Where they're going to summerand where they're at during
season isn't much of adifference, whereas if you're
talking about 52 acres in theircore area, for example Riverside
, I see two times and thenanother buck I call Junior,
(27:55):
which looks like two times.
From the first year I saw him.
Two very nice bucks, but I seethem the same time every year.
Well, I don't see them at allduring the summer, even though
you know I saw a bunch of.
I had a bunch of doe picks andstuff like that, but it's one of
those.
Early on you said, hey, if yousee does, just be happy, you see
(28:19):
does, and then that's fine,because come season with the
bucks will be looking for thosedoes.
And yeah you know, it might justtell me so leaving those
cameras up for a couple of years.
The data I collected from thatis like okay, he's only going to
come down there for a week, 10days at night.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Right the same time every year, and that's a great
point.
That's a great point Becausethese bucks, even where they're
summering, they don't move veryfar.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
They stay in one area typically and then they don't
typically come out of that area,whether it be where they're
summering or whether it be theirbedroom, until the rut.
When the rut happens is whenthey start moving outside of
that core area.
But typically those bucks are,so I mean they're just how can I
say?
They're just kind of homebound.
(29:10):
They don't like traveling.
They just really don't cover alot of areas.
So if you're not right in wherethey want to be, whether it's
summering or wintering, untilthe rut you're probably not
going to see them.
And when I say see them is getpictures on your camera, whether
it be at night or day orwhatever.
But they're going to betraveling and moving more.
(29:31):
They're going to reach theouter skirts of that range,
otherwise they're going to hangmost of the time just in a
little, probably a littlequarter acre, half acre spot.
They're not going to go veryfar, they just don't travel a
lot Because they don't need to.
No.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Generally and what's interesting.
So you know, I wrote down anote about time, deer moving,
Thinking about Alex, and herealized, oh, they're not
daylighting here.
But if I go to this other spotand I'm not sure how far away
that second spot was for Curry,but it was, oh, over there he's
daylighting, so I'll just, I'llgo over there.
(30:06):
So it's, he was collecting data, you know, as he referred to it
.
So I put a camera out here, youknow, for research purposes
only.
And that's exactly how it says.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Well, that's it, it's , we're putting out the cameras
for research purposes, and whathe was doing is he was basically
finding out the route thatCurry was running.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
You know, from the time that he left the bedroom
till the time he came back andhe figured out where he was
daylighting in that route, andthat's all it was.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, and so I think just from my different sets is
I've collected through the useof trail cams and going through
a season of hunting of how theymove, you know where should I be
at what part of the day,different things like that.
So it's interesting whenbecause it's all just putting
(30:56):
the puzzle together the moredata you have, the more, the
better, more informed decisions.
Better picture you have, yeah,better picture you have the
better decisions that you canmake, based off of that picture?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Definitely so.
Last little point here is and Icall it data from the community
.
And whether it be mentors, ormaybe you've joined a hunting
club or an outdoorsman club.
And what got me thinking aboutthe outdoorsman club is us going
to speak recently or you goingto speak for an outdoors club
(31:32):
down in Battleground?
But just that community.
And if you were to join thatand at first I'm sure no guy
wants to give up his spot butonce you ingratiate yourself to
that particular community justlike with the biologist, you
know you don't just hey, wheredo I go to find a big buck, it's
(31:53):
hey how long you been workingat you know, and it's ultimately
I think you should be doingthis to just make friends right,
you know be nice to people, butthat is one of the the things
that can come from that ispeople helping you out, and
you know, these are some of thethings that I see when I go in
(32:14):
and look like bud mentioning tome.
You know, he you know I think Ifound the right habitat when I
see mushrooms and a holly treeand those were just kind of like
his thing.
So if I were to go walk aroundand it's not because deer like
mushrooms and holly trees, it'sbecause mushrooms and holly
trees grow in the same habitatthat these bucks like from what
(32:39):
he's found in, the habitat thathe likes to hunt in.
Well, we found those, but youknow, you just find that from
your community.
And it's another thing, becauseas soon as he said that, it
dawned on me one of my halfwayset oh yeah, there's mushrooms
all over the place.
That place is filled withchanterelles.
In fact, I was going to go outin September.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Now this is a fine example.
This is a fine example of whatyou're saying, the point you're
trying to make here, because Inever even thought of that stuff
.
Yeah, the chanterelles, theholly tree, all that stuff,
leave it to Bud.
You know who is just loving todeath, but he's-.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Things that he noticed.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I know he just man, he just puts, and it sounds
really dumb to say it or I won't.
I'm sorry, but I won't say dumb.
It sounds really weird to sayit, like really kind of off the
wall, but that's the way he iswired.
He is a guy that noticesdetails in the strangest areas.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
But you've done the same thing with hooker willows.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah, yeah.
But Bud's come up with thisstuff quite a bit and I was
telling him.
This guy saw him this morningand I was talking with him and I
was just like, dude, you'vedone the locating.
I don't even know why I teachlocating anymore, because he's
so much better at it than I am.
And he just had a laugh.
He goes well, I just doeverything you taught me.
(34:02):
And I'm like no, this is youtaking it to another level.
But you know, getting to the,to the, the joining the club and
everything, I think that's it's, it's always, it's good and
it's bad.
You gotta be careful, you know,because in every club there's
always somebody this is and youhear me say this all the time
this is a sport filled with egos, you know and it's there's
(34:24):
always that one guy that wantsto be the best hunter, and
there's nothing wrong with that,but he wants to come across as
the best hunter.
I've got the biggest deer, I'vekilled the most deer, the
biggest bull, the most elk, thebiggest bear, whatever you know
yeah.
Try and be the guy that says I'mgoing to help make your candle
brighter instead of trying toblow it out.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
I think I really like the saying that Jeff Danker.
He used it when we were at theBuck Venture Summit it's serve
first, and then we hunt.
Yeah and there you go.
That was.
That was like the number onething I took away from that that
these are the type of guys andit's the type of end.
(35:04):
But the club we went and thatyou spoke to, it seemed like
surfers.
And then we hunt yeah and it'sthat.
But same thing with mentors.
It's those, those guys who like, who will celebrate your
success as much, if not more,than you.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, there you go, that's it yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I love that.
I love that when you're grantedthe opportunity, when you're
blessed with the opportunity tobe a part of that memory, that
wonderful, incredible memory forthat person, you know we should
feel privileged on somethinglike that you know it's like oh,
you're letting me be a part ofthis.
You're asking me to come in andparticipate in something that's
(35:47):
really important to you.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
And that's why we do the success stories with the
podcast and we will do more ofthose this year that we want to
celebrate.
We want to celebrate with youand we want it in a big way.
Right, we want our listeners tohear how you were successful.
Absolutely yeah and yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
It's always fun to hear the stories, but to see and
again, I was blessed enough togo on a lot of recoveries this
last season and every one ofthem walking away with season
and every one of them walkingaway with this is why this is
why we do it.
Yeah, you know seeing guys getteared up and and just get all
excited and and whatnot, killingyou know whether it's a record
(36:28):
book or whether it's theirtrophy, but they're just excited
.
You know that's awesome to me.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
That's what I love but then getting to to hear that
whole story and I think Ibrought it up at the bootcamp
when I was talking to the guysat the end, when we were talking
about mindset portion thatthere's an attribute of A you
did a good job and peoplefeeling like they did a good job
because of this.
It's the idea of with thepodcast that you did a good job
(36:58):
because you did all this hardwork, you gathered the data, you
researched things you thoughtabout, you were thoughtful in
your approach to this hunt andhere's your reward for all that
hard work for all that hard workRight right, and even if it's
not a harvest, you're stillrewarded with a good year
(37:23):
because you probably learned aton.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
You know and, honestly, if you had, I would
say, if you're listening now andyou've gone through one of our
classes, if you really feel likethis was just a successful year
, even if you didn't harvest, Ithink I'd like to hear those too
.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Because my first year I felt really successful with
how much I learned, being out inthe woods for the first time
and going through this process.
I didn't harvest anything, butI still felt really successful
which encouraged me to moveforward for this year and my
success, ie a harvest that cameand I know next year.
(38:03):
Well, now it kicks it upanother notch, and it kicks it
up another notch, and yeah, yeah, it's that confidence you get
with every win.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
You know whether it's filling the tag or, like you
say, just getting the knowledgethat makes you feel like you can
go out there and figure thisout.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yeah, so I think that pretty much wraps it up.
It's what is the state you know, what information are they
providing you?
What information can you go getfor yourself?
And then, what can you get fromthe people around you?
Utilize those, those resources,all of them.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
it's it, because in the end, that's, that's just it
is it you're just trying tostack more cards in your favor?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
in your favor.
You know that successful thatmay be the two percent that you
needed to get over the top to besuccessful yeah, and it's
amazing, just from personallysitting down and reading through
the regs and reading throughthe boring parts or the stuff
that a lot of guys I don't thinknecessarily have ever looked at
or thought about looking at,and just oh, that's interesting.
(39:09):
Even just now, when I looked atbears, yeah, it's pretty sad so
, but oh well, that's okay.
Sad so, but oh well, that'sokay.
Well, that's probably, uh,something that tells me we need
to be serious about hunting bearhere because we didn't harvest
too many.
That means the population wentup.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
that means we're gonna have fewer deer we're
gonna have more bear problems.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
So, yeah, it can help spur that action and stuff and
that's.
That's what we're here for tohelp spur some action.
There you go, teach us some newskills.
So anyway, thanks for joiningus and we will see you all next
week.
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron and I'm Dave.
This week we're talking aboutusing data for your hunts.
I come up from a fieldeducation that is very
data-driven.
When we do something, we'realways saying what does the data
say?
What is it telling me?
What should be my response towhat data I've collected?
(00:24):
And so I think that with thecoaching, with the classes, this
is all new stuff that we'vekind of introduced from the
black tail coach into thehunting community, education and
classes and coaching, and nowwe're talking about using data.
So it's a foreign concept, Ithink, for a lot of just in this
(00:44):
particular field.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Oh yeah, I would absolutely agree.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
But I would say it's just a lot of my way of thinking
and Asha's way of thinking thatwe've kind of introduced to you
, but I think, a lot of hunters.
This is all natural.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
We're just kind of giving a name to what you
probably are already doing, ismy guess well, I I don't know if
I to some extent, to someextent I think that that a lot
of the, the stuff that we goover, is basically a lot of it's
an untapped resource, to behonest with you yeah as far as
reaching out to game biologistsand whatnot, not a lot of guys
(01:24):
do that.
You know, and and and honestlyyou're, you're really ignoring a
great source of information.
Every time I go on anout-of-state hunt, especially if
I'm going on an out-of-stateelk hunt, I mean, now you know
we, if we're in grizzly country,just the simplest stuff,
contacting the game biologistswhere the grizzlies in that area
(01:44):
, you know, because typically,like Montana, they know, they
know exactly that those, thosebears have either been tagged or
they keep an eye on thembecause the human interaction
and encounters, you know, andthey just try and keep tabs on
those bears and and and.
That's another thing.
You know, you've heard me sayit.
I don't like hunting in areaswhere my head has to be on a
swivel the whole time.
Yeah, you know, you've heard mesay it.
I don't like hunting in areaswhere my head has to be on a
(02:05):
swivel the whole time.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
And so, because it's hard forme to relax and yeah, that's
just a resource right there, youknow, and that's just the tip
of the iceberg.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
As far as game biology, yeah, and I know
especially for for guys whomight be hunting sort of off
topic but in grizzly country,knowing where they're at,
especially if you're riflehunting, because that rifle is a
dinner bell.
Yeah, we've heard so manystories that especially guys who
go up to Alaska and they shootand it is a race to get that
(02:37):
deer out of there.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Right, you know.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Right Field dress and back on the boat if they're
doing like Sitka and they'reisland hopping or you know where
they're boating in Just to getout of there, because as soon as
that gun goes off, any bearwithin earshot is coming in.
Right right, yeah to find that.
But so first there's stateresources that we have access to
(03:01):
, and you just touched on it thegame biologist.
So tell us some of yourexperience about using
biologists, both locally and outof state, or out of area hunts,
because it's not just for outof state, you could be calling
them for local hunts too ifyou're a new area, but tell us
about how you've used them.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, for instance, we went hunting Idaho one time
and I remember we reached out tothe game biologist and just
because it was a new area, we'dnever been there and they were
telling us, well, we startedasking about the elk numbers, we
started asking about successrate in certain units, we
started asking where do you feelis the highest concentration?
(03:45):
Where is the greatest cow tobull ratio?
That kind of stuff.
And then, on the flip side ofthe coin, I can think of a moose
hunt where we were just overthere and we spoke to several
game biologists.
Where have you seen, you know,especially with my buddy Kirk he
drew the tag over in northeastWashington, it was my buddy Kirk
, he drew the tag over innortheast Washington and early
(04:06):
season, those moose, they're alot harder to find in September
than they are in November.
Really, yeah, you get snow onthe ground and those moose they
come down out of the highercountry and they're just there.
I mean, it's a school bus onthe side of a hill.
Oh yeah, yeah, you know what Imean.
They're just monstrous.
(04:30):
But all the foliage is down andyou can see a lot more.
But you know, when all thecovers up and everything they're
, they're really difficultsometimes to find.
And yeah, we just tapped intothe game by this, where you've
been seeing them.
If you've seen any good bulls,any big bulls, and you know
where, where would you go?
What would?
What area do you think weshould concentrate on?
And because of that, we weresuccessful in September, and you
know.
And then we go on social mediaand I'm, you know, because of
(04:51):
the pro staff part of it, I'm onsocial media a lot you know,
always every day and lookingthings over, and I think I don't
think I saw anyone else andthat's not to say that anyone
wasn't successful but not onsocial media.
You know, during that time itwas a really, really hot
September and we went over andwe got it done Opening weekend
(05:12):
and I attribute a lot of that tothe game biologists.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Game biologists.
Yeah, just pointing you in theright direction you know, and
that's a lot of it.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
you know that's big when you go into an area and you
don't know where to start.
Yeah, you it you know that's,that's, that's big, when you go
into an area and you don't knowwhere to start.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
It kind of gives you get yourfeet under you and helps you get
off to a good start that was.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
That hunt was kind of funny because I knew more of
where to go than I think you didbecause yeah I take.
You know, I used to yearly takea road trip and go Highway 20
between I think it's Tenasket,through Republic out towards
Kettle Falls Uh-huh, and I don'tknow if it's, I think it's two
(05:55):
miles.
It's either two miles beforeKettle Falls or two miles before
Republic.
There is a little turnout bythe side of the road and if you
pull into that there's a pond bythe road.
Every time I've gone by thereit's been like three different
times I've seen moose.
I've seen five moose in thatlittle pond or on the hillside
(06:17):
behind the pond, and so I said Ijust go there.
And you were actually I don'tknow few miles away from right
from that particular spot, butit was, yeah, it was kind of
funny hey, I know where to goget some moose not even 100.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I know, I know where one of those guys just doesn't
know anything but talks like Ido yeah yeah, I get to share in
that.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
But have you used them ever?
Used them for your hunts likeKellett's Lewis down here?
Yeah, yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
One of my hunting partners is an absolute.
He's an engineer and I mean heloves this stuff.
He loves, you know, getting thenumbers and going over it and
and you know he's the guy thatthat when we're going, and you
know he's the guy that that whenwe're going to put in out of
state, he's going to, he's goingto crunch the numbers and, you
know, come back with three,three units or three tags we
(07:12):
should put in for and ones weshouldn't waste our time on and
all this stuff.
But yeah, locally absolutely,and a lot of it's got to do
because I'm looking for bigblack tail bucks, and so I
contact them and I ask themspecific questions.
You know what county, whatareas had the most rainfall?
(07:32):
Because, that's always coincideswith the best antler growth.
What area did the state recordcome out of?
What area has the highestpercentage of bucks over three
point harvested?
What area has the highestpercentage of bucks over four
point harvested?
What area you know has theleast amount of bucks over a
four point harvested?
(07:53):
You know, and then it's like,well, why is that you start?
It's a puzzle that you have toput together.
You have to start thinking aboutokay, why are these successful
here?
Why are they not successful?
And those are the questions youask that game boss, because
they can tell you that too.
We feel that this is becausethey're doing this or because of
this going on in this area, orthey have this habitat, or
(08:15):
whatever.
This is why these hunters arebeing successful there, and they
can tell you about spots thatare up and coming.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And I imagine it's also something where they could
tell you.
You like you don't know anybodywho's pulled a buck out of a
certain area, or it just seemslike it's a dud of an area,
right, but it might be becauseof topography or something, but
there are huge bucks in thereright, right.
The harvest rate may be real,but the caliber of buck coming
out of there is really good, youknow, especially, I could think
(08:49):
, if there's not a lot of recentlogging and so there's not a
lot of clear cuts, for guys togo hunt the clear cuts, if
that's what they're choosing todo, or if it's an area where
they can't do not spot and stalk, but driving road hunting you
know, just driving along theroads and looking for something
like that, not a lot of accessto it, yeah, and there's, just
(09:11):
there really isn't a lot ofaccess for road hunting like
there used to be, because youknow gates
and logging companies have gatedoff most of the woods, so have
you had?
Have you seen them be really,really specific, like if you go
two miles down this road and oneridge over and oh, absolutely,
(09:35):
they can get.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
yeah, you don't want them as a hunting partner okay,
yeah they're.
They're not going to keep anysecrets, but a lot of them, and
and what I would say to guys is,if you're going to tap into
your game biologist number onefirst and foremost, be patient.
Be patient because they're busypeople.
They don't always get back toyou right away, but when they
get back to you, be courteous,be kind, and they're going to
(09:56):
pour out a lot of information onyou.
So be ready to take notes andreally listen to what they're
telling you.
And I've always found that ifyou just strike up a
conversation and just kind ofokay, so how long you been doing
this kind of stuff, and you getthem on your side, they're
really apt to tell you exactlywhere they've seen A good.
(10:18):
For instance, is that moosehunt?
They put us on a giant.
They told us the exact timberpatch where that bull and he had
two cows were hanging out andeverything.
and, and what was funny isbecause they didn't, they didn't
relinquish that, thatinformation right up front yeah
but because my buddy struck up aconversation with them and was
(10:40):
just being friendly and justtalking with them, one of them
goes.
You know what?
I wasn't going to tell anyonethis, but here's, we saw this
one yesterday and it's just atoad, just a monster.
They put us right on it,dropped us right in the lap of
that bull.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Nice Because, yeah, it didn't take you too long to
Opening weekend.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yeah, you got them pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And then it was 24 hours of trying to cut that
thing.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Oh my gosh, that was a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
So, as far as you know you might not know this or
not game biologists do they haveaccess to all lands.
Is it built in for, I would say, say, the, the timber companies
?
They're gated, but does wdfwget keys to those gates so that
they can go in there if that.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
That's something I don't know for sure, aaron, I'm
sure they probably do I'm surethey probably do, you know yeah,
I can't imagine them not havingyou know, because then then
poachers could just stay on thetimberland and never get busted,
you know.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
So I would think that they have access in there.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Well, as far as any studies or anything like that,
if they're going to for them tobe able to go back in there yeah
.
For the biologists, the gamewardens, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Habitat restoration projects and stuff like that.
For the biologists, the gamewardens, I imagine.
Habitat restoration projectsand stuff like that, yeah, which
?
Speaker 1 (12:05):
you know, makes you want to go be a game biologist.
No, I'm just back here doingthe study with my rifle, with my
bow, during season.
Nothing to see here.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It's weird, nobody else is back here.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Using the old Jedi mind trick.
These aren't the huntinggrounds you're looking for yeah
exactly so.
Now I imagine this is true forother states, but for Washington
WDFW their website they have awhole page that talks about just
everything about the numbersand what the harvest rates are
(12:42):
and everything.
So they have game Status andTrends Report.
So this is a 545-page report onall species that they put out,
but it's Annual Status and TrendReport for Game Species
Populations in Washington.
For major species, separatesections cover each region or
other management unit.
(13:02):
That's cut and paste that fromthe website.
But that just covers.
It's broken down into differentdistricts and it just it gets
in there and just talks aboutthat area.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
And what's coming out of that area.
So I'm sure this is all stuffthat they're putting like the
biologists are having some inputwith putting these together.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
They just give credit to.
Wdfw is the author of thisreport.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
But there's game harvest reports and these
provide annual hunting andtrapping statistics for elk,
deer, cougar, black bear and itsays small game, but I didn't
see small game on the website,so when I start looking at that
and this is a big one, guys, anda lot of guys don't think about
this Knowing that we have apredator problem what you guys
(13:54):
really need to start focusing onand really start looking at is
your calf and fawn survival rate.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
That is the telltale sign of how that unit is going
to go.
If that survival rate drops low, then you know that hunting in
that area is going to startgoing down.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
I saw something and that's what's great about
dialing into these reports andreally finding out those details
but I saw something.
I think overall it's 0.5.
But that's assuming two fawnsare born to every doe every year
and 0.5 survival rate.
(14:35):
So basically one out of the twofawns will survive, which was
true on one of my sets of a doe.
I had her on camera with twofawns and after three, four
months months she only had onefawn hanging around with her.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
I used to hunt a spot over in eastern oregon for elk
and talking with the biologiststhat area, that that specific
area where we were, was thecalving grounds for the entire
unit.
All the elk in that unit, theysaid, would come down into that
valley and calve down there, andso we would go out in the
spring and just wanting to getover there, get out in the woods
(15:11):
and that kind of stuff, and youwould pull it and you would see
hundreds and hundreds andhundreds of head of elk in that
valley because they were calvingand they did their studies in
there and they would tag 300plus calves and then they would
monitor those calves to see whatthe survival rate was.
And as soon as I mean as soonas they started saying, okay,
(15:33):
there's no hound hunting forbears, no baiting for bears, you
can't run hounds on cats, youstarted seeing that survival
rate going down, down, down andmy friends, you know the people
that I was hunting with at thattime were just like, yeah, we
need to keep going back, we needto keep going back when I was
noticing that we were fillingfewer and fewer tags.
you know we were seeing fewerand fewer elk, we were hearing
(15:57):
fewer and fewer bulls and it wasgetting harder and harder every
year to locate the animals, youknow.
And so I asked the gamebiologists you know well what's
the calf survival rate here?
And this absolutely floored me.
But they said, okay.
So we tagged over 300, wemonitored over 300 for the year,
(16:18):
the survival rate, out of somenumber like 375 or something
like that, and they said thesurvival rate for that year was
11.
And I just thought to myselfthat's unsustainable.
And now you go over there inthat valley when they're calving
and you don't see I don't thinkyou see a hundred head of elk
in that valley anymore.
(16:38):
And when we first started goingthere, literally you were
seeing 700 to a thousand head ofelk.
It was just insane the numberof elk that were there.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And now it's not there, you know, as the
predators have come and it's thewolves also moving into the
area, the wolves also moving in,so they've tipped that balance
so far one way that there's justno survival rate on the calves.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Well, that's your future.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So it's interesting because they introduced them and
I ended up doing the math.
I think I saw a commentsomebody made.
It caused me to start lookinginto the numbers.
This might be going a littleoff topic, but it's talking
about the wolves and in Idahothere were 1,541 wolves and this
was when they were trying tocull 90% of the wolves.
(17:23):
They were giving out tags.
They wanted 90% of the wolvesgone, so they basically wanted
to get it down to about 160wolves.
So I thought well, how many elkdo wolves eat?
Do 1,541 wolves eat a year?
How many are they killing?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
27,000 elk a year.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
That's just crazy.
And so then it's just lookingat well, what's the replacement
for in Idaho for the elk herds?
You know, if there's, for theherds to grow, they have to be
producing more than 27,000 elk ayear.
New calves, right?
No, it wasn't even close.
(18:03):
And so, yeah, of course they'regoing to start dwindling and
then it becomes well, then it'sbig financial, but anyway,
getting off topic here, but it'sjust interesting.
But you can find out all thisinformation and these trends by
(18:23):
just jumping online.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, it's all there.
It's all public knowledge.
And that takes me to another.
You know people want to stopand talk about.
You know, the CWD and all thisother stuff.
Guys, all that information thatyou need to know, stop guessing
.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Stop guessing and stop making accusations.
Go online, read about it.
Be an informed hunter.
If you're going to protest,protest with facts, because when
you protest and you don't havethe facts, we look ignorant.
It doesn't help our cause.
We need to be educated on theseissues.
You know, and it's right thereon the websites.
(19:01):
You see all the numbers.
When you go to my seminars, Igive a ton of information on
deer behavior and studies andall this it's all off of those
websites, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, and reading through it.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, it's not exciting reading, but I'm
telling you when you're thinkingabout trophy animals every year
when you're thinking, andthat's the difference the guy
that gets a trophy animal everyyear, as far as a let me
rephrase it A guy that gets arecord book buck every year, is
a guy that thinks about thatrecord book buck 11 out of 12
(19:35):
months.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, at least you know, and he's thinking big
picture.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, year round.
He's always focused on her,she's always focused on it, you
know.
And so if you want something,you got to work for it.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So it's interesting.
So I pulled up the statewide2024 statewide black bear
harvest statistics.
So this last year 1800 totalblack bears were harvested.
So I don't know, and I mean Icould go, hey, siri, how many
black bears are in Washingtonstate and it would tell me, and
so this would tell me overallhow many are out there 1,800 is
not a lot.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, that's nothing.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Guys go hunt bear, and that might be where people
think that they have to go outto the coast to get a bear,
things like that, because thecoastal region is where the most
get harvested.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
But the success rate is 6% to 12%.
I think guys are holding outfor big ones too, and the
reality is hey, you get two beartags.
Go kill the first thing you seeand then hunt a big one.
Yeah, you know what I mean wegot to do something yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Wow, take your kids out.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
That way you can let them shoot a couple.
There you go.
Wow, take your kids out.
That way you can let them shoota couple.
There you go, there you go.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
But anyway, just pulling up randomly and I knew
that it was really low because Ihad looked at this information
below.
But just now, while you weretalking, I pulled up the WDFW
website and looked at that.
I was like out of this and Idon't know what this particular
area encompasses, butconsidering there's nine bear
(21:07):
management units for the wholestate in one ninth, 15 bears,
you know that's.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Golly.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, like you said, it's no wonder we got a bear
problem.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
You know, the next closest was Blue Mountains and
there's not a huge populationout there.
They had 92 harvests.
Everywhere else is close to 250to 300.
A few places had a couple ofhundred.
So this is the information thatyou're finding from the website
.
So you got game status andtrends reports, game harvest
(21:42):
reports, which means if only 15were harvested, harvested, there
probably is a lot more outthere oh my gosh and because
we're we're not taking them out.
What else is if, if huntersaren't?
right so, and then you have gamemanagement planning.
So these are.
So what it says is the gamemanagement plan serves as
(22:05):
guidance for three-year seasonsetting cycle and any annual
adjustment in hunting seasons.
These timeframes are adopted sothat hunters have consistent
hunting seasons and managers cansee how wildlife populations
respond to the hunting framework.
Seasons are adjusted annuallyto address local conditions.
So all of that available.
(22:26):
Wdfw, or you know, if you're inOregon, Canada, I'm sure has
the same type of informationavailable to you Alaska, every
state.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Oh, absolutely, has this type of information
available?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
to you.
They all have game biologistsso you know good, good source to
check those out.
So that biologist and thewebsite is really that's where
you do your research, you know,because it might pinpoint you to
a certain area, you know, usingthose two, resources,
absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Like I said, it's really untapped in comparison to
the number of hunters out there.
There are very few hunters thatuse that resource, and I mean
you, you know.
A fine example is I go back tothat moose hunt.
Put us right on that bull righton that bull.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah, just took a little finesse to?
yeah, just a little talk get theguy to open up.
So then there's your own datathat you're collecting and you
know and I'm calling it data,but it's just like scouting.
You know and I'm calling itdata, but it's just like
scouting.
You know what.
What are you seeing?
What data?
Am I seeing tracks?
Am I seeing signs, things likethat, and that's that is giving
(23:36):
you information.
What's in the area, like youcan you've talked about the size
of the track will tell you thesize of the buck or if it's a
buck or a doe.
There you go, data collection,just walking around the woods.
Plus, you get to walk around inthe woods, which there's
nothing wrong with that, but youknow you can collect data on
(23:56):
winds prevailing versus thermals.
You know time of day, best wayinto your set.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And especially and this was and I talked about this
a couple episodes ago about oneof my sets I really got to
figure out the wind and is itone that I have to go in in the
morning, regardless if I'm goingto hunt that set because of how
I think the winds are going toreact later on in the afternoon,
when you know things startheating up or sun or something
(24:26):
like that, which isn't, it mightnot be as much of an issue, but
it still could be.
Yep, but like going out thereand hanging out all day and with
my wind check and and andseeing what's what's happening
out there, best way in and doingthe wind checks for all that.
But then trail cameras.
So what's the data you shouldbe gleaning from trail cams?
(24:50):
Like, if you're putting themout now and you've been pretty
open, you don't put them outuntil right before season, right
, right, because you have your,your spots right and, like last
year, I had them out all summerI had I won't say had them out.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
I had one out all summer and in a spot that a new
spot that I'd found and guys,many of you guys heard about the
locker room and everything andI just wanted to catalog what
was in there and I was gettinggreat picks and everything and
was able to watch them.
And I would say I did the samething with Lucky in that area
(25:24):
Totally different outcome onthat one as far as the number of
picks that I got.
I think I saw Lucky in thatbuck two times in three years in
the summer and that was it.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
That was it.
And very few deer picks at all.
A lot of bear, Very, very fewdeer picks.
Locker room tons of deer picks.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
No bear, no bear, whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, and it just.
You know some areas are likethat and whatnot, but typically
I don't put them out until justbefore season.
But I get it.
Guys want to.
They want to see deer, you know.
You know they want thatgratification of knowing that
they did all this hiking andthey're in an area where there's
deer.
And I would just say this guys,don't put a lot of weight in
that during the summer.
As far as picks in thesummertime, we're not hunting
(26:15):
them in the summer, you know.
So where they summer and wherethey winter are two different
spots inside that range.
And in the summertime, just bemore apt to be looking for, does
you know?
And because come the time whenwe get to go hunt them, where
the does are is where the bucksare going to be.
So if you don't get buck picksthroughout the summer, no big
(26:37):
deal, don't sweat it, don't getworried over it.
No, I haven't seen a big one.
I haven't that's all right,because you can't hunt that buck
in the summer seen a big one?
I haven't that's all right,because you can't hunt that buck
in the summer.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
In the summertime he's somewhere where he's not
going to be when hunting seasoncomes, you know so I think we
talked about it last year howyou had the locker room and
chris had field of dreams andyou were getting big buck picks,
like all summer yeah, and thatjust doesn't happen all the time
but that was.
That was throwing out a kind ofa almost the wrong message and
(27:12):
it was great that you weregetting those.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
But like everybody was white, getting upset because
they weren't getting big buckpicks or hey, where do I?
You know, should I put it outnow?
And and even now, guys comingup to me because they they saw
those picks.
Okay, I gotta get my camera out, I gotta get my camera out.
I got to get my camera out.
You're just like no, no, youdon't.
So you're right, it was kind ofteaching them the wrong thing.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
And the locker room, public land landlocked, so those
deer aren't going anywhere.
Where they're going to summerand where they're at during
season isn't much of adifference, whereas if you're
talking about 52 acres in theircore area, for example Riverside
, I see two times and thenanother buck I call Junior,
(27:55):
which looks like two times.
From the first year I saw him.
Two very nice bucks, but I seethem the same time every year.
Well, I don't see them at allduring the summer, even though
you know I saw a bunch of.
I had a bunch of doe picks andstuff like that, but it's one of
those.
Early on you said, hey, if yousee does, just be happy, you see
(28:19):
does, and then that's fine,because come season with the
bucks will be looking for thosedoes.
And yeah you know, it might justtell me so leaving those
cameras up for a couple of years.
The data I collected from thatis like okay, he's only going to
come down there for a week, 10days at night.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Right the same time every year, and that's a great
point.
That's a great point Becausethese bucks, even where they're
summering, they don't move veryfar.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
They stay in one area typically and then they don't
typically come out of that area,whether it be where they're
summering or whether it be theirbedroom, until the rut.
When the rut happens is whenthey start moving outside of
that core area.
But typically those bucks are,so I mean they're just how can I
say?
They're just kind of homebound.
(29:10):
They don't like traveling.
They just really don't cover alot of areas.
So if you're not right in wherethey want to be, whether it's
summering or wintering, untilthe rut you're probably not
going to see them.
And when I say see them is getpictures on your camera, whether
it be at night or day orwhatever.
But they're going to betraveling and moving more.
(29:31):
They're going to reach theouter skirts of that range,
otherwise they're going to hangmost of the time just in a
little, probably a littlequarter acre, half acre spot.
They're not going to go veryfar, they just don't travel a
lot Because they don't need to.
No.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Generally and what's interesting.
So you know, I wrote down anote about time, deer moving,
Thinking about Alex, and herealized, oh, they're not
daylighting here.
But if I go to this other spotand I'm not sure how far away
that second spot was for Curry,but it was, oh, over there he's
daylighting, so I'll just, I'llgo over there.
(30:06):
So it's, he was collecting data, you know, as he referred to it
.
So I put a camera out here, youknow, for research purposes
only.
And that's exactly how it says.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Well, that's it, it's , we're putting out the cameras
for research purposes, and whathe was doing is he was basically
finding out the route thatCurry was running.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
You know, from the time that he left the bedroom
till the time he came back andhe figured out where he was
daylighting in that route, andthat's all it was.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, and so I think just from my different sets is
I've collected through the useof trail cams and going through
a season of hunting of how theymove, you know where should I be
at what part of the day,different things like that.
So it's interesting whenbecause it's all just putting
(30:56):
the puzzle together the moredata you have, the more, the
better, more informed decisions.
Better picture you have, yeah,better picture you have the
better decisions that you canmake, based off of that picture?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Definitely so.
Last little point here is and Icall it data from the community
.
And whether it be mentors, ormaybe you've joined a hunting
club or an outdoorsman club.
And what got me thinking aboutthe outdoorsman club is us going
to speak recently or you goingto speak for an outdoors club
(31:32):
down in Battleground?
But just that community.
And if you were to join thatand at first I'm sure no guy
wants to give up his spot butonce you ingratiate yourself to
that particular community justlike with the biologist, you
know you don't just hey, wheredo I go to find a big buck, it's
(31:53):
hey how long you been workingat you know, and it's ultimately
I think you should be doingthis to just make friends right,
you know be nice to people, butthat is one of the the things
that can come from that ispeople helping you out, and
you know, these are some of thethings that I see when I go in
(32:14):
and look like bud mentioning tome.
You know, he you know I think Ifound the right habitat when I
see mushrooms and a holly treeand those were just kind of like
his thing.
So if I were to go walk aroundand it's not because deer like
mushrooms and holly trees, it'sbecause mushrooms and holly
trees grow in the same habitatthat these bucks like from what
(32:39):
he's found in, the habitat thathe likes to hunt in.
Well, we found those, but youknow, you just find that from
your community.
And it's another thing, becauseas soon as he said that, it
dawned on me one of my halfwayset oh yeah, there's mushrooms
all over the place.
That place is filled withchanterelles.
In fact, I was going to go outin September.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Now this is a fine example.
This is a fine example of whatyou're saying, the point you're
trying to make here, because Inever even thought of that stuff
.
Yeah, the chanterelles, theholly tree, all that stuff,
leave it to Bud.
You know who is just loving todeath, but he's-.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Things that he noticed.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I know he just man, he just puts, and it sounds
really dumb to say it or I won't.
I'm sorry, but I won't say dumb.
It sounds really weird to sayit, like really kind of off the
wall, but that's the way he iswired.
He is a guy that noticesdetails in the strangest areas.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
But you've done the same thing with hooker willows.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah, yeah.
But Bud's come up with thisstuff quite a bit and I was
telling him.
This guy saw him this morningand I was talking with him and I
was just like, dude, you'vedone the locating.
I don't even know why I teachlocating anymore, because he's
so much better at it than I am.
And he just had a laugh.
He goes well, I just doeverything you taught me.
(34:02):
And I'm like no, this is youtaking it to another level.
But you know, getting to the,to the, the joining the club and
everything, I think that's it's, it's always, it's good and
it's bad.
You gotta be careful, you know,because in every club there's
always somebody this is and youhear me say this all the time
this is a sport filled with egos, you know and it's there's
(34:24):
always that one guy that wantsto be the best hunter, and
there's nothing wrong with that,but he wants to come across as
the best hunter.
I've got the biggest deer, I'vekilled the most deer, the
biggest bull, the most elk, thebiggest bear, whatever you know
yeah.
Try and be the guy that says I'mgoing to help make your candle
brighter instead of trying toblow it out.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
I think I really like the saying that Jeff Danker.
He used it when we were at theBuck Venture Summit it's serve
first, and then we hunt.
Yeah and there you go.
That was.
That was like the number onething I took away from that that
these are the type of guys andit's the type of end.
(35:04):
But the club we went and thatyou spoke to, it seemed like
surfers.
And then we hunt yeah and it'sthat.
But same thing with mentors.
It's those, those guys who like, who will celebrate your
success as much, if not more,than you.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, there you go, that's it yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I love that.
I love that when you're grantedthe opportunity, when you're
blessed with the opportunity tobe a part of that memory, that
wonderful, incredible memory forthat person, you know we should
feel privileged on somethinglike that you know it's like oh,
you're letting me be a part ofthis.
You're asking me to come in andparticipate in something that's
(35:47):
really important to you.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
And that's why we do the success stories with the
podcast and we will do more ofthose this year that we want to
celebrate.
We want to celebrate with youand we want it in a big way.
Right, we want our listeners tohear how you were successful.
Absolutely yeah and yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
It's always fun to hear the stories, but to see and
again, I was blessed enough togo on a lot of recoveries this
last season and every one ofthem walking away with season
and every one of them walkingaway with this is why this is
why we do it.
Yeah, you know seeing guys getteared up and and just get all
excited and and whatnot, killingyou know whether it's a record
(36:28):
book or whether it's theirtrophy, but they're just excited
.
You know that's awesome to me.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
That's what I love but then getting to to hear that
whole story and I think Ibrought it up at the bootcamp
when I was talking to the guysat the end, when we were talking
about mindset portion thatthere's an attribute of A you
did a good job and peoplefeeling like they did a good job
because of this.
It's the idea of with thepodcast that you did a good job
(36:58):
because you did all this hardwork, you gathered the data, you
researched things you thoughtabout, you were thoughtful in
your approach to this hunt andhere's your reward for all that
hard work for all that hard workRight right, and even if it's
not a harvest, you're stillrewarded with a good year
(37:23):
because you probably learned aton.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
You know and, honestly, if you had, I would
say, if you're listening now andyou've gone through one of our
classes, if you really feel likethis was just a successful year
, even if you didn't harvest, Ithink I'd like to hear those too
.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Because my first year I felt really successful with
how much I learned, being out inthe woods for the first time
and going through this process.
I didn't harvest anything, butI still felt really successful
which encouraged me to moveforward for this year and my
success, ie a harvest that cameand I know next year.
(38:03):
Well, now it kicks it upanother notch, and it kicks it
up another notch, and yeah, yeah, it's that confidence you get
with every win.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
You know whether it's filling the tag or, like you
say, just getting the knowledgethat makes you feel like you can
go out there and figure thisout.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yeah, so I think that pretty much wraps it up.
It's what is the state you know, what information are they
providing you?
What information can you go getfor yourself?
And then, what can you get fromthe people around you?
Utilize those, those resources,all of them.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
it's it, because in the end, that's, that's just it
is it you're just trying tostack more cards in your favor?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
in your favor.
You know that successful thatmay be the two percent that you
needed to get over the top to besuccessful yeah, and it's
amazing, just from personallysitting down and reading through
the regs and reading throughthe boring parts or the stuff
that a lot of guys I don't thinknecessarily have ever looked at
or thought about looking at,and just oh, that's interesting.
(39:09):
Even just now, when I looked atbears, yeah, it's pretty sad so
, but oh well, that's okay.
Sad so, but oh well, that'sokay.
Well, that's probably, uh,something that tells me we need
to be serious about hunting bearhere because we didn't harvest
too many.
That means the population wentup.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
that means we're gonna have fewer deer we're
gonna have more bear problems.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
So, yeah, it can help spur that action and stuff and
that's.
That's what we're here for tohelp spur some action.
There you go, teach us some newskills.
So anyway, thanks for joiningus and we will see you all next
week.
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