May 26, 2025 • 35 mins
Trophy hunting takes on new meaning when you understand the distinct difference between your personal definition of a trophy and what actually qualifies for record books. This fascinating exploration of blacktail deer hunting breaks down how hunters often misidentify so-called "mature" bucks, revealing the dramatic body size differences between a 3½-year-old and a truly mature 4½-year-old blacktail.
The conversation takes unexpected turns through the science of deer development, where we discover that antler size speaks more to genetics than age. Some mature bucks genetically max out as fork horns while others with identical age develop impressive racks. We share fascinating real-world observations of bucks followed for multiple seasons, including how mineral supplementation transformed spindly antlers into more impressive headgear.
For those measuring success in inches, we provide practical field judging techniques that will forever change how you evaluate potential record book bucks. Learn why height trumps width in scoring systems, how mass measurements contribute significantly to final scores, and what specific characteristics mark a potential Pope and Young or Boone and Crockett qualifier. We break down the specific requirements for various record books, including the lesser-known Northwest Big Game Records that categorizes blacktails into Columbia, Cascade, and Western regions.
The technology revolution in hunting equipment gets critical examination too, particularly how modern muzzleloaders with sophisticated optics have transformed what was once a primitive weapon into something with 500-yard effective ranges. This evolution raises important questions about regulatory responses and hunting opportunity.
Whether you're hunting for the record books or simply for personal satisfaction, this episode delivers practical knowledge to help you recognize and appreciate what makes a blacktail buck truly special. What's your definition of a trophy?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron and I'm Dave.
This week we're gonna talkabout actually the title of our
episode is One for the RecordBook, so we talk about the
difference between a trophy andone that makes a record book so
a trophy being kind of whateveryou determine it to be.
Right right, whether it's yourfirst buck, that being a trophy,
(00:23):
or bigger buck than you gotlast year, or a mature buck, or,
like Bud's, had a couple ofthem Right right right, Big fork
and horn, and now he wants tofind a giant spike black tail.
But you know, it might be yourfirst four-point or four-point.
Right right.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Or a particular weapon.
That's your first archery buck,or there's, there's no, uh, how
can I say?
There's no standard to achieveit?
You, you're simply.
It's a goal post that'sconstantly, constantly moving.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, you know what I mean, and it's your goal post
yeah, yeah, that you, that youmove throughout your career.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
what do you want next ?
What you know?
How big, unique, whatcharacteristic?
Are you looking for?
That kind of stuff?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
But a lot of times in the classes, seminars, things
like that, and I'd say on thispodcast you've mentioned a
record book buck, that you'regoing to see a record book buck,
but that could mean a number ofthings because there's
different factors.
But that's being specific.
So when you use that phrase,what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
So if I'm talking to a rifle hunter, well, it doesn't
matter If I'm talking to arifle hunter or a busloader or
an archery hunter.
What I'm referring to when Isay a record buck, buck, is that
you'll see a buck that willscore in the record book apropos
to your weapon yeah that you'reusing, for instance, archery,
(01:50):
is pope and young rifle, booneand crockett.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
You know that kind of scenario there now, if you get
a big enough buck with archeryequipment.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
It will qualify for pope and young or boone and
crockett I'm sorry, yes, booneand Crockett, I'm sorry, yes.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Boone and Crockett.
Okay, because and I was lookingand a non-typical black tail
for Boone and Crockett is 155.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
So Chris, just barely missed that, but far exceeds it
, of course by Pope and.
Young and he got an archery.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
But it's just interesting, different standards
and Boone and Cckett they'rehigher numbers, just because I
guess the the thinking is youcan be a lot further away, so
you have a bigger area that youcould cover yeah, you've got a
farther reach your your distanceof of efficiency yeah you know,
(02:43):
is obviously much greater, andand you're using a modern weapon
, whereas archery and andmuzzleloader are considered
primitive weapons, and hencethat's also one of the reasons
why that that score is loweryeah but most guys never see a
buck over 150 no, you know, yeah, I probably a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Never really see one over 130.
I would say, yeah, you'reprobably right, and it's not for
lack of trying, it's just whenthey get that big, when they get
that old, right, well, and Iwould say a true.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I think a lot of it's got to do with the fact that
guys are passing off young deerthat they're calling mature
bucks.
Yeah, and they're just not.
You know that they're callingmature bucks.
Yeah.
And they're just not you know,they're not mature bucks.
It's funny because I had thisconversation with somebody just
yesterday and they were tellingme, you know, in seasons past he
was saying he was like, well,you know, I'd look at these deer
and I think they were mature.
And he says you know, then Ishot this buck last year and it
(03:40):
happened to be his biggest buckand I believe it was a five and
a half is what I guessed it at.
But he goes the body size onthis in comparison and he says,
and I'm doing your system.
He says I put out the camerasand he says I'm looking at all
these bucks and he says what Ithought was mature before.
He says it's so differentbetween three and a half to four
(04:03):
and a half.
There's such a drastic changein the body, in that skeletal
frame, you know, and it's just,it's no comparison, it just
stands out that that is a maturebuck.
And what?
What the average guy is callinga mature, a mature buck is not
a mature buck, you know, becausethey're not seeing them on a
regular basis.
(04:23):
So they they see the three anda half and they think, wow,
that's a mature buck yeah youknow.
So it's not.
It's not for because they'reignorant, it's just because
they're just not.
They haven't been exposed towhat a, what a mature buck looks
like on a regular basis.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
You know, I mean, and a lot of that.
I I mean maybe they're takinginto account the rack that's on
there.
So, thinking about Charlie, hewas a three-and-a-half-year-old
Right.
He was 129 gross and 122 net.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Huge buck, but he was a three-and-a-half-year-old.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, and so I was in on that recovery with Bud and
seeing Charlie on the ground,just looking at at him, you
could look at the body on himand even, uh, you know the
features around the head withthe ears and you know the
brisket area there and stuff.
You could look at that buckuntil he was really young.
You know and and and body size.
(05:17):
You were just like, oh my gosh,you know, in comparison to, say
, the buck, he shot two yearsfollowing.
You know the body on that one.
In comparison to charlie buck,he shot two years following.
You know the body on that one.
In comparison to Charlie, thebody on that one was much bigger
than Charlie.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
So the fork and horning shot, or the four point
he'd previously shot, the one hegot this this last year yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, big fork and horn and stuff.
But I mean you look at it andit was like it was.
There was such a noticeabledifference.
You know, uh-huh and and uhyeah.
So I mean average guys haven'tbeen exposed to, to big, mature
black tail bucks, because ifthey were, I wouldn't have a job
.
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
So and it's, it's interesting because I had that
one buck, that I, the one that Imissed.
I named him Kenobi, he wasabout a three and a half year
old, but it was a good sizedbody and, again, very different
system when you're looking athim 10 yards away and he was,
and it was like, because a lotof times you see, does Right.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
And you're also not getting that, that, that flash
yeah you know you're able to sitthere and watch that buck for
you know, 10, 15 minutessometimes and you've got
countless pictures and all thisand you're like, okay, how old
is this guy?
You're getting pictures fromevery angle and whatnot, so you
really get a good look at at thebody and you can tell.
(06:45):
You know and we talk about itwhen I do talk about aging deer
and whatnot- but the skeletalfeatures that you look for and
you start seeing those andyou're like, okay, yeah, it's
obvious that that's a young buckor that's a mature buck.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
But thinking about that.
So Kenobi had.
He was a two by three and alittle crab claw on one side and
a crown three point.
But like crab claw, three point, uh-huh, on the other side,
same age as as charlie.
Just world's difference, andthat being, of course, genetics
(07:17):
and things like that, but justworld's different as far as the
rack.
But looking at the bodies, Iwould even say he had a little
more mass to him and I thinkthat was.
I saw him fairly early.
Well, maybe that wasmid-november when I was seeing
him come in and and everything.
But again, yeah, it's just whenthey're in front of you, 10
(07:38):
yards right, hanging out, it'syou really start noticing like
the size difference between themand and does and whatnot.
But I also had a mature forkand horn on that set who was the
brick, who was?
That's what I named it, becausehe just his body.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Right.
And he just but a big fork athorn and and and see, that's the
thing, guys, you know that'sanother thing Antlers don't tell
you about the age, antlers tellyou about the genetics of that
deer.
The skeletal frame tells youabout the age.
And so when you say you knowBrick, big forked horn and
everything, guys are going tothink, well, he's two, two and a
(08:17):
half, maybe three and a halfyears old.
And the reality is is that somedeer just genetically do not
have it in them to go any biggerthan a big two or a big three
yeah you know, and and that's,that's the reality of it, you
know, and then it's like, forinstance, lucky.
I watched lucky for four yearsand I think it's a great example
(08:37):
of an area.
Even though we get a lot ofrainfall over here, that area
was mineral deficient because hewas always really spindly, he
was always really wide he was abig three point and I watched
him again for four years, himand another big buck running
together, and the other one wasjust a big forked horn.
(08:57):
But he wasn't a revert, youknow, he was just a big forked
horn and they were both spindlyand we started doing minerals
and everything.
And boy he, just once westarted doing the minerals, he
put on the mass really good.
He actually went to a four bythree and eye guards and
everything.
And then the other forked hornreally beefed up as well.
(09:19):
But they've always been thatwide from the time that I first
found it.
So there was four years thatthey were that wide watching
them.
But the antlers, his body wasalways big.
So a lot of guys are like, well, you know, looking at the
antlers and it's like he's justa big three point.
Well, it was just genetics youknow, and then it was okay.
So now it's mineral deficiencyin that area.
(09:40):
They're not getting enoughrainfall, they're not getting
enough rainfall, they're notgetting enough minerals.
You know, something is wrong inthere, that they're just not
getting to their maximumpotential.
And then we startedsupplementing that with minerals
.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah, or the type of feed that they're getting.
Maybe the predominant feeddoesn't have as much of a
certain kind of minerals Rightright.
Maybe a couple of differentminerals, whereas if you go a
couple miles away, there's moreof that particular type of feed
that has that type of mineral.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff like that A lot of
variables that go into making agood buck, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Which is why you know , when we were able to do
minerals it would be.
It could be hit and miss, justand really close together.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, one area just get pounded and the other area
you not see a single deer allsummer, although it was really
interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
So I I was experimenting with three
different minerals cracked outblacktail solutions, blacktail
drop zone this year, and I and Iused also big and j to die for
as an attractant and and yearspast I would put that out and I
might have one doe come in or abear would come in and sniff it,
(10:51):
but that was about it.
There was really no action.
And then this year, of course,and we went out in February to
do this.
So before the ban happened iswhen I put out these minerals.
But I went out and I pulled allmy cameras just recently and
the minerals all gone, scrapeddown to bare dirt, all three of
(11:12):
them.
And I've even used BlacktailDrop Zone in the past.
It was new with the Cracked Outand the Blacktail Solution.
That was a new.
Both those were new products,but it was bare dirt everywhere
and Like every scrap of it goneand just eating down into the
(11:32):
dirt.
And it was really weird becauseI was trying to think of and we
had a La Nina winter, so coolerand wet, but I was trying to
figure out what was it aboutthis winter that they hit those
minerals that hard?
Or maybe I just I put them outa month or a month and a half
earlier than I normally did.
(11:53):
I can't quite remember when Idid last year.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Did you put minerals out last year in that area?
Mm-hmm.
In that area.
Oh really yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
So the only new place for putting out minerals was my
halfway set, uh-huh, because Ifound that later in the season
and by the time I found it,there was no point in putting
out minerals.
Right right.
But the other two same spots,same minerals, but just
different reaction this year andall of them just got hit hard.
(12:25):
So it was just reallyinteresting and maybe that was
the key is.
I think I might have gone outlate March last year.
Right and it that's just enough.
Where things are starting togrow by late March, where
there's enough other food thatthey're going to ignore that,
whereas in mid February it'sjust game on.
Right on With all that Anyway,just little side note.
(12:47):
Getting into talking about that, I can't.
I was going to experiment withthat all through season and then
the band came, and well, somuch for that idea.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Well, our Oregon guys can still use them.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, oh yeah and try them out.
But as far as I can tell, likethe Blacktail Solution, all
those were really good products.
Blacktail Solution was probablythe most completely down to
like a trench.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Just hammered, huh, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And I was able to go out and put out the rest of it a
few days before the ban tookeffect, because we've got a
dozen or 15 bags of this stuffsitting in the garage.
So I went and used up the restof the black tail solution and
put it back out there, just touse it up, and I haven't gone
(13:38):
and looked at it yet.
Unfortunately, I didn't seewhat came in on that particular
set because my camera died, thebattery died after I put it out.
But oh, that was another pointOne, two does in the last.
Oh, that was another point Onetwo does in the last.
This is the third year I'vedone minerals on that set, so
one, two does max.
Uh-huh.
I had 15, like one or twopictures.
(14:01):
It might have been the same doe, one or two pictures.
They sure had 15 different days.
That deer came in to thatparticular set, nice, and that
was with the black tail dropzone and big and J, which, to
die for, and a lot of times thathasn't been a real strong
(14:24):
attractant for them and it moldspretty quickly out in the rain,
right right, all gone, and youcan see exactly where I poured
it out, because it's just well,you put the black tail drop zone
down on bear dirt anyway, butyou can tell it's all gone and
the others all down dirt duginto the dirt, nice so, and very
(14:45):
few bears.
I did have a couple of bears onsets but I mean, yeah, that's
fine, that's's just a yearly.
But anyway, getting back intoand I just brought that up
because that was a like withLucky that the minerals were
really important for managingthe herd, Right deer health.
(15:06):
Helping the deer health andtrophies, you know making
trophies or making record books.
So you have some animals, morethan just black tail, and you
having Pope and Young, becauseyou're primarily with everything
.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, I archery just everything, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
What all do you have that's in Pope and Young.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I have a cougar.
I have pronghorn several deer.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Did any of your bear make it?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
no, not yet.
I am, however, leaving on abear hunt in manitoba oh, there
you go hope to get a good onebut in all honesty, with the
bear I'm more of a meat hunterthan I am anything else yeah,
that's true you know, I I don'treally there's so many out there
you just, we got to dosomething.
You know, I'm not going to bepicky there's so many out there.
You just we got to do something.
You know I'm not going to bepicky, yeah, but yeah, a lot of
(15:57):
deer pronghorn cougar, you didshotgun for turkey.
Yeah, I did shotgun for turkey.
But yeah, I got some.
It's got some long beards thatare over 11 inches and okay, you
know some good, good birds andwhatnot.
I got 15 bulls but none of themare.
None of them are record bookstatus yet.
But then, Mule, deer.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
But those of you were more meat hunting, you weren't
quite as focused on the trophyaspect.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
As far as trophy, really the Black.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Tails or record book?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I'd say not trophy, yeah, record book.
As far as record book goes,black Tails is really the only
one that really gets me going.
Everything else, if it's legal,you know it's good enough for
me.
Yeah, and on some trophy elkhunts and called in some bulls
for some guys, but that's aboutit.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So I pulled up.
When we're talking about recordbooks, so there's Pope and
Young, for archery Rifle isdoing Boone and Crockett.
Oh, this was something else Iwas going to ask you.
So, having gone to BuckVentures this year and joining
as pro staff for Buck Venturesin the woods myself, so we were
(17:05):
sitting down one evening havingdinner and the CVA guys came and
sat with us.
Yes, and we got to hear a lotabout muzzleloaders and rifles
and what they had going.
Yeah, some really great stuff,but really neat guys.
And it's the.
If you ever watch any CVAYouTube videos, that's the guy
we were sitting down with, tonySmotherland Tony Smotherland, I
(17:26):
keep forgetting his name andthen another guy who worked
there, but it was interestingand I asked what is the?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
effective range of a muzzleloader.
Now Just about fell out of yourseat.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, and they said well, if conditions are perfect,
we can hit 1,000 yards.
I'm like what?
So you know, I'm thinkingeffective range as far as
because there's a certain pointwhere rifles they won't kill.
You're far less likely to killsomething you know, I think like
(18:00):
a Remington 703-08 is like7,800 yards or something like
that, or it might be further,but there's an effective range.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Right, so you need to preface all of this with.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
as far as the 1,000, that the guy that went to there
is a competition shooter.
Yeah yeah, that is above andbeyond the average guy.
But he said that if conditionsare perfect he would take a
thousand yard shot on an animal,Right and he goes.
But typically he'd take any 500yard shot he could get.
And this is also where muzzleloaders, you can have a scope on
them and things like that.
Right, right, but do you thinkso?
As I was looking through theserecord books and it's mostly the
(18:41):
only one that makes a like.
An exception is the NorthwestBig Game record books.
Okay, and they have a muzzleloader category which is very
similar.
You know it's a black powder,but the numbers on those, as far
as what constitutes a recordbook, is very similar, or maybe
(19:02):
even lower than it is forarchery.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Do you think with the inline systems and how modern
these, do you think that they'regoing to adjust those?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
start adjusting.
There's a reason why they don'tlet black.
I mean when it first came out,when black powder first started
catching on, before the inlinebarrels and all of this stuff.
You know, primitive weapon wasright, you know, and there are
still some states where it'slike, no, you have to use the
flintlock style, all that.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Open to the air Northwest compliant.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, that's still limiting you very much.
But, like you said, there arestates where you know you can
put a scope on it.
You know you can shoot thatclose to the weather, all that
stuff, and it's just like, well,no, that's a rifle, that thing.
When you're shooting 500 yardswithout even skipping a beat,
not even thinking twice about it, that's a rifle.
(19:57):
And so what made it primitivewas the limitations that it had
before as far as, because theaverage guy is probably not
going to stretch himself muchmore than 100 yards.
Yeah, I'm talking with a scope,are they?
You gotta have a one power nowone power, I think they're.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
They allow red dots or there's something like that,
but it's a one power.
Scope is what you can use inwashington now, and I'm not sure
about oregon in my mind that'sjust basically readers yeah,
okay, so you got readers onthere.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Okay, but innovation is a great thing.
When I was a kid, I rememberwhen the fastest bow on the
market was 200 feet per secondand it was.
Everybody was talking about itand it was just like, oh my gosh
, and then they cracked thatbarrier.
Then after that it was the 235barrier and then it went up to
the 280 barrier, you know.
(20:49):
And now they, you know, theygot bows that are 370.
And it's like well, theinnovations there's a point
where innovations start hurtingyou, because it no longer can be
considered a primitive weapon.
Yeah.
You know it just isn't.
And if you're going to do that,then what they're going to end
up doing is shortening theseasons.
(21:10):
That's how they solve thatproblem, which is what they've
done with how they solve thatproblem, which is what they've
done with muzzle, which is whatthey've done with muzzle loader.
They've shortened the seasonand then they've taken away
units and stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
It's like eight or nine days and a lot of units
don't have the late muzzleloader anymore because your
efficiency becomes too great.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
You know your harvest rate goes up and and I mean
this is, this, is this is abreeder stock that we're pulling
out of every year and you haveto maintain that balance.
You know well, it's out ofbalance right now because we
have more predators that aren'tbeing managed than we do.
You know, ungulates that arebeing managed.
I mean there's a lot of thingslike anything else that go into
(21:52):
it, and and if you start puttingin it's already out of balance
and you start throwing in allthis, this new technology and
whatnot, then it's really gonnatip and and and then we're going
to be on the downhill side ofsomething that we don't want.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, now I know we have all separate seasons for
everything.
Are there states that whereit's just deer season whatever
weapon you're using, or do theypretty much all separate out
archery and muzzle loader andthey separate them out.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
But you know, like in in a lot of states you buy a
deer tag and and you can huntany far as the weapon yeah, you
just have to hunt with thatweapon yeah you know, and much
like washington, you can alwaysgo down, but you can't upgrade
yeah so if it's archery season,you have to hunt with archery
(22:40):
equipment.
You can't hunt withmuzzleloader or rifle.
But if it's rifle season youcan hunt with archery equipment
if you so choose okay.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
So looking at the record books and these were the
three that I was mainly andreally I didn't realize up until
the show that there was soNorthwest Big Game record books.
I didn't realize that there wasNorthwest records.
I thought that it was just Popeand Young and Boone and
Crockett, that it was just Popeand Young and Boone and Crockett
(23:11):
Because Curry made record andthat's what I couldn't quite
figure out at the time, becausePope and Young is 95, but the
state record is 90.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, the minimum is 90.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
For Columbia Blacktail that was also a
difference.
Actually, it's true for all ofthem.
Columbia, they break downBlacktail a lot more.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
The Northwest record book does yes.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
So Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett, it's Sitka
Blacktail.
But they break it down toColumbia, cascade and Western.
So I know the differencebetween Columbia and Western is
just I-5, right.
Yes yeah, yeah, and Cascadejust a certain level up in the
Cascades.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
No, cascade would be I-5, I believe it is Columbian
is west of I-5.
And I believe Western is at theColumbian is west of I-5.
And I'm assuming the Cascadeobviously is going to be east.
It used to be that.
You know it changes so muchYou've got to really be on top
of this stuff.
I know that for a long time,like Boone not Boone and Crocker
(24:23):
, but Pope and Young consideredanything east of I-5 was
considered a mule deer andanything west of I-5 was
blacktail.
You know, and they've sincechanged that, they've moved that
boundary and whatnot.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Oh here, why didn't I just pull it up on the whip
while you were talking?
Okay, so Cascade, it's lookinglike, oh, that's kind of
interesting.
So it looks like there's anarea east Whatcom County, east
Skagit, so the east part of alot of these counties, but it
would be higher elevation whichmight be the Pacific Crest Trail
(25:01):
.
It's kind of looking like it'sfollowing the Pacific Crest
Trail, maybe it's a little bitfurther over it at a certain
point, but this looks like itencapsulates what I consider
bench leg bucks, this particulararea.
Westerns, huh, but this alsodoesn't have this one in
(25:25):
particular.
It's showing Western iseverything kind of west of I-5.
Maybe Columbia, that'sinteresting.
Yeah, western or coast.
Deer and columbia are justalong the columbia river, so
interesting.
Anyway, they have all thisinformation on the websites
(25:46):
which is really interesting.
Just if you're curious aboutthis type of information.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Right, it's just jumping on these.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So, northwestbiggamecom, you can
Google Boone and Crockett andPope and Young and see what the
minimums are.
But it's like 135 for Boone andCrockett, yep, if you hit 125,
you make the three-year recordbook.
So they'll record it for threeyears.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
And then they drop it .
Speaker 1 (26:12):
To permanently make Boone and Crockett you have to
have a 135.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Right, right, 135.
Which I think is the 135 is theminimum for whitetail on Pope
and Young.
I believe it's either 130 or135.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Oh, I thought it was 140.
But anyway, well, I could lookthat up 145.
Pope and Young is for mule deerWhite tail deer typical is 160
at Boone and Crockett.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Right, I'm talking Pope and Young.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Oh, pope and Young, yes, it's definitely smaller,
with Pope and Young White tailis 125.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Non-typical is 145.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
That's a lot lower than I thought, yeah, but yeah,
all of them are all 90 for anytype of blacktail, right For
archery, it's 90.
It's 95 for muzzleloader andthen it's anywhere from 110 to
125.
Makes Northwest WashingtonState record book for all of
(27:11):
those?
But they do, they break it downfor archery, rifle,
muzzleloader and then they'llalso score sheds.
So if you go out and find ashed you can make a record book
for a shed.
So one of the also I noticedBoone and Crockett is field
judging.
They have really goodinformation about field judging.
So when you're out there, ifthat is your goal to have
(27:32):
something that makes it into therecord book, they break that
down really well.
How do you go about your fieldjudging when you're to decide
and you might not necessarily bedoing it for black tail and you
talked about that.
It's just something that caughtyour eye.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
But if you were to go and field judge, like if you
were looking, how would you?
What would help you decipherhow big a deer is?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
oh, okay, yeah, there's some.
There's some characteristics onblacktail that you can look at
what's going to score better, oror you know how wide is that or
whatever.
So, generally speaking, when ablack tail buck, when his rack
is as wide as his ears, you knowwhere the ears are inside the
rack.
That buck is somewhere around18 and a quarter to 18 and three
(28:22):
quarters inches inside spread.
That's just a given, that'sjust a general given.
That's how big that buck is.
Another thing is you know goodfronts will make up for weak
backs.
Your front splits can reallyhelp make up for back splits
that aren't very strong.
And then a good rule is ifyou're wondering, like guys look
(28:45):
at Lucky and they go, wow, thatbuck's 140, 140s.
But if you really know whatyou're looking at, you look at
that buck and you go, okay, hemight be 120,.
You know at the most, simplybecause everybody thinks width
is going to score better thanheight and it doesn't.
Height always scores betterthan width.
(29:06):
So if you've got a buck that'sreally tall, he's going to score
better than a wider one.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Typically speaking, because it's two scores.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
And width is only one .
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Right yeah, because you're going to go on that main
beam twice.
Yeah, they're really wide,they're only wide ones, you're
only getting one.
Yeah, and that was something,and we'll get back into more
about that, but I was looking atwhere they measure.
So it's width, they measure thecircumference, the diameter.
So if it has eye guards,they'll do one below the eye
(29:38):
guard, one above the eye guard.
If it has no eye guards, theyjust do two in the exact same
spot and then, when the antlerssplit, they'll do one
measurement off of thosebranches, right.
So there's a total of eight ofthose that factor in.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
And so if you've got a buck with, like, when we go up
to and we do the-.
Up in Puyallup, yeah, up inPuyallup, you know, and we get a
lot of Kitsap County buckscoming in and stuff and they're
just, they're so heavy, they'rejust just absolute tanks up
there.
Those bucks will always scorereally good because they have
such really good mass.
Because you're adding up all ofthat and it doesn't seem like
(30:19):
it's a lot, like a lot of buckssay that are just from down in
our neck of the woods, let'sjust say and they're not as
heavy, not even close to beingas heavy.
Yeah.
You know and you realize, man,you're just giving up a lot when
you don't have that mass andthe kids app.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
They carry that mass all the way up and that's just
huge.
So one of the on one of thewebsites I saw that it good mass
on a black tail is four inchcircumference, so around the
racks.
Yeah.
So four times eight is 32inches.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Now if he's three, which is still pretty good mass,
you're losing eight inchesright there.
You know that's knocking itdown to 24.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
And I would say that's probably what we're at.
We're probably, I'd say, theaverage buck around this area
and this, being SouthwestWashington, I would say is
somewhere around that three-inchmark.
Yeah.
You know, but it's funny, and Imean those kits that got to be
pushing four and a half five.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I mean they're just massive bucks We've seen some
that are yeah huge, especiallydown around the eye guard area.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, just baseball bat handles, you know yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
And if you had like a five-inch circumference?
Oh my goodness yeah, all thoselittle things.
But, they said that it's highlyunlikely that you're going to
have and this is one of theBoone and Crockett If you want
to really kind of figure thingsout, their field judging page
has a lot of really goodinformation for figuring out
(31:52):
what you're looking at.
I would say.
So what is being scored?
What's really important, likethree by three.
It's rare for a three by threewithout eye guards.
In fact I think at one pointthey said that there's not a
three by three.
It was sitka, it had to be afour by four.
(32:13):
And when they say four by four,that can be a three by three
with eye guards.
But they said that if it's athree by three, no eye guards
generally doesn't make recordbook.
There are certain things thatyou want to be looking for.
Does it have eye guards?
Does it?
have this, does it have that andbe able?
(32:34):
That helps you with determining, you know, along with, I guess,
your weapon and stuff, soanything else that you consider
when field judging.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
It's hard for me to say you know, because of the way
that I hunt.
You know it's just do.
I got record book.
Yeah, I got record book bucks,but is it something?
I'm just going out there tofind what catches my eye.
And I would say this if youwant to be, if you're someone
that says I don't know how toscore, I don't know how to judge
them, or anything like that,the best thing you can do is
take the bucks that you'vekilled and start measuring them
(33:06):
yourself.
Yeah.
You know what I mean.
Pope and Young has a greatwebsite.
Boone and Crockett has a greatwebsite.
You go right on there andthey'll tell you exactly how to
measure.
They got pictures and diagramsto show you exactly what to do.
And when you start seeing whata 110 to 120 inch looks like,
you know, and the differencebetween those two and whatnot,
(33:29):
you start seeing what thesebucks really measure.
You're able to score relativelyclose out in the field just
because you know what it takes.
And that's all it really is isknowing what it takes, knowing
where the measurements are goingto.
That's what is going to helpyou become a good scorer on the
hoof.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Okay, so hopefully we've steered you in the right
direction for figuring out, whenyou're out there, what is your
record book.
But primarily I'd just say, goafter your trophy.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Have fun.
The trophy is that's you, thatis your hunt and at the end of
the day, it's what you've doneand you've got what?
What you're happy with that'sit.
Yeah, that's it, right thereokay, so till next week go kill
a big one, go kill a big one,yeah.
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron and I'm Dave.
This week we're gonna talkabout actually the title of our
episode is One for the RecordBook, so we talk about the
difference between a trophy andone that makes a record book so
a trophy being kind of whateveryou determine it to be.
Right right, whether it's yourfirst buck, that being a trophy,
(00:23):
or bigger buck than you gotlast year, or a mature buck, or,
like Bud's, had a couple ofthem Right right right, Big fork
and horn, and now he wants tofind a giant spike black tail.
But you know, it might be yourfirst four-point or four-point.
Right right.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Or a particular weapon.
That's your first archery buck,or there's, there's no, uh, how
can I say?
There's no standard to achieveit?
You, you're simply.
It's a goal post that'sconstantly, constantly moving.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, you know what I mean, and it's your goal post
yeah, yeah, that you, that youmove throughout your career.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
what do you want next ?
What you know?
How big, unique, whatcharacteristic?
Are you looking for?
That kind of stuff?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
But a lot of times in the classes, seminars, things
like that, and I'd say on thispodcast you've mentioned a
record book buck, that you'regoing to see a record book buck,
but that could mean a number ofthings because there's
different factors.
But that's being specific.
So when you use that phrase,what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
So if I'm talking to a rifle hunter, well, it doesn't
matter If I'm talking to arifle hunter or a busloader or
an archery hunter.
What I'm referring to when Isay a record buck, buck, is that
you'll see a buck that willscore in the record book apropos
to your weapon yeah that you'reusing, for instance, archery,
(01:50):
is pope and young rifle, booneand crockett.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
You know that kind of scenario there now, if you get
a big enough buck with archeryequipment.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
It will qualify for pope and young or boone and
crockett I'm sorry, yes, booneand Crockett, I'm sorry, yes.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Boone and Crockett.
Okay, because and I was lookingand a non-typical black tail
for Boone and Crockett is 155.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
So Chris, just barely missed that, but far exceeds it
, of course by Pope and.
Young and he got an archery.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
But it's just interesting, different standards
and Boone and Cckett they'rehigher numbers, just because I
guess the the thinking is youcan be a lot further away, so
you have a bigger area that youcould cover yeah, you've got a
farther reach your your distanceof of efficiency yeah you know,
(02:43):
is obviously much greater, andand you're using a modern weapon
, whereas archery and andmuzzleloader are considered
primitive weapons, and hencethat's also one of the reasons
why that that score is loweryeah but most guys never see a
buck over 150 no, you know, yeah, I probably a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Never really see one over 130.
I would say, yeah, you'reprobably right, and it's not for
lack of trying, it's just whenthey get that big, when they get
that old, right, well, and Iwould say a true.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I think a lot of it's got to do with the fact that
guys are passing off young deerthat they're calling mature
bucks.
Yeah, and they're just not.
You know that they're callingmature bucks.
Yeah.
And they're just not you know,they're not mature bucks.
It's funny because I had thisconversation with somebody just
yesterday and they were tellingme, you know, in seasons past he
was saying he was like, well,you know, I'd look at these deer
and I think they were mature.
And he says you know, then Ishot this buck last year and it
(03:40):
happened to be his biggest buckand I believe it was a five and
a half is what I guessed it at.
But he goes the body size onthis in comparison and he says,
and I'm doing your system.
He says I put out the camerasand he says I'm looking at all
these bucks and he says what Ithought was mature before.
He says it's so differentbetween three and a half to four
(04:03):
and a half.
There's such a drastic changein the body, in that skeletal
frame, you know, and it's just,it's no comparison, it just
stands out that that is a maturebuck.
And what?
What the average guy is callinga mature, a mature buck is not
a mature buck, you know, becausethey're not seeing them on a
regular basis.
(04:23):
So they they see the three anda half and they think, wow,
that's a mature buck yeah youknow.
So it's not.
It's not for because they'reignorant, it's just because
they're just not.
They haven't been exposed towhat a, what a mature buck looks
like on a regular basis.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
You know, I mean, and a lot of that.
I I mean maybe they're takinginto account the rack that's on
there.
So, thinking about Charlie, hewas a three-and-a-half-year-old
Right.
He was 129 gross and 122 net.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Huge buck, but he was a three-and-a-half-year-old.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, and so I was in on that recovery with Bud and
seeing Charlie on the ground,just looking at at him, you
could look at the body on himand even, uh, you know the
features around the head withthe ears and you know the
brisket area there and stuff.
You could look at that buckuntil he was really young.
You know and and and body size.
(05:17):
You were just like, oh my gosh,you know, in comparison to, say
, the buck, he shot two yearsfollowing.
You know the body on that one.
In comparison to charlie buck,he shot two years following.
You know the body on that one.
In comparison to Charlie, thebody on that one was much bigger
than Charlie.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
So the fork and horning shot, or the four point
he'd previously shot, the one hegot this this last year yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, big fork and horn and stuff.
But I mean you look at it andit was like it was.
There was such a noticeabledifference.
You know, uh-huh and and uhyeah.
So I mean average guys haven'tbeen exposed to, to big, mature
black tail bucks, because ifthey were, I wouldn't have a job
.
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
So and it's, it's interesting because I had that
one buck, that I, the one that Imissed.
I named him Kenobi, he wasabout a three and a half year
old, but it was a good sizedbody and, again, very different
system when you're looking athim 10 yards away and he was,
and it was like, because a lotof times you see, does Right.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
And you're also not getting that, that, that flash
yeah you know you're able to sitthere and watch that buck for
you know, 10, 15 minutessometimes and you've got
countless pictures and all thisand you're like, okay, how old
is this guy?
You're getting pictures fromevery angle and whatnot, so you
really get a good look at at thebody and you can tell.
(06:45):
You know and we talk about itwhen I do talk about aging deer
and whatnot- but the skeletalfeatures that you look for and
you start seeing those andyou're like, okay, yeah, it's
obvious that that's a young buckor that's a mature buck.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
But thinking about that.
So Kenobi had.
He was a two by three and alittle crab claw on one side and
a crown three point.
But like crab claw, three point, uh-huh, on the other side,
same age as as charlie.
Just world's difference, andthat being, of course, genetics
(07:17):
and things like that, but justworld's different as far as the
rack.
But looking at the bodies, Iwould even say he had a little
more mass to him and I thinkthat was.
I saw him fairly early.
Well, maybe that wasmid-november when I was seeing
him come in and and everything.
But again, yeah, it's just whenthey're in front of you, 10
(07:38):
yards right, hanging out, it'syou really start noticing like
the size difference between themand and does and whatnot.
But I also had a mature forkand horn on that set who was the
brick, who was?
That's what I named it, becausehe just his body.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Right.
And he just but a big fork athorn and and and see, that's the
thing, guys, you know that'sanother thing Antlers don't tell
you about the age, antlers tellyou about the genetics of that
deer.
The skeletal frame tells youabout the age.
And so when you say you knowBrick, big forked horn and
everything, guys are going tothink, well, he's two, two and a
(08:17):
half, maybe three and a halfyears old.
And the reality is is that somedeer just genetically do not
have it in them to go any biggerthan a big two or a big three
yeah you know, and and that's,that's the reality of it, you
know, and then it's like, forinstance, lucky.
I watched lucky for four yearsand I think it's a great example
(08:37):
of an area.
Even though we get a lot ofrainfall over here, that area
was mineral deficient because hewas always really spindly, he
was always really wide he was abig three point and I watched
him again for four years, himand another big buck running
together, and the other one wasjust a big forked horn.
(08:57):
But he wasn't a revert, youknow, he was just a big forked
horn and they were both spindlyand we started doing minerals
and everything.
And boy he, just once westarted doing the minerals, he
put on the mass really good.
He actually went to a four bythree and eye guards and
everything.
And then the other forked hornreally beefed up as well.
(09:19):
But they've always been thatwide from the time that I first
found it.
So there was four years thatthey were that wide watching
them.
But the antlers, his body wasalways big.
So a lot of guys are like, well, you know, looking at the
antlers and it's like he's justa big three point.
Well, it was just genetics youknow, and then it was okay.
So now it's mineral deficiencyin that area.
(09:40):
They're not getting enoughrainfall, they're not getting
enough rainfall, they're notgetting enough minerals.
You know, something is wrong inthere, that they're just not
getting to their maximumpotential.
And then we startedsupplementing that with minerals
.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah, or the type of feed that they're getting.
Maybe the predominant feeddoesn't have as much of a
certain kind of minerals Rightright.
Maybe a couple of differentminerals, whereas if you go a
couple miles away, there's moreof that particular type of feed
that has that type of mineral.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff like that A lot of
variables that go into making agood buck, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Which is why you know , when we were able to do
minerals it would be.
It could be hit and miss, justand really close together.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, one area just get pounded and the other area
you not see a single deer allsummer, although it was really
interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
So I I was experimenting with three
different minerals cracked outblacktail solutions, blacktail
drop zone this year, and I and Iused also big and j to die for
as an attractant and and yearspast I would put that out and I
might have one doe come in or abear would come in and sniff it,
(10:51):
but that was about it.
There was really no action.
And then this year, of course,and we went out in February to
do this.
So before the ban happened iswhen I put out these minerals.
But I went out and I pulled allmy cameras just recently and
the minerals all gone, scrapeddown to bare dirt, all three of
(11:12):
them.
And I've even used BlacktailDrop Zone in the past.
It was new with the Cracked Outand the Blacktail Solution.
That was a new.
Both those were new products,but it was bare dirt everywhere
and Like every scrap of it goneand just eating down into the
(11:32):
dirt.
And it was really weird becauseI was trying to think of and we
had a La Nina winter, so coolerand wet, but I was trying to
figure out what was it aboutthis winter that they hit those
minerals that hard?
Or maybe I just I put them outa month or a month and a half
earlier than I normally did.
(11:53):
I can't quite remember when Idid last year.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Did you put minerals out last year in that area?
Mm-hmm.
In that area.
Oh really yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
So the only new place for putting out minerals was my
halfway set, uh-huh, because Ifound that later in the season
and by the time I found it,there was no point in putting
out minerals.
Right right.
But the other two same spots,same minerals, but just
different reaction this year andall of them just got hit hard.
(12:25):
So it was just reallyinteresting and maybe that was
the key is.
I think I might have gone outlate March last year.
Right and it that's just enough.
Where things are starting togrow by late March, where
there's enough other food thatthey're going to ignore that,
whereas in mid February it'sjust game on.
Right on With all that Anyway,just little side note.
(12:47):
Getting into talking about that, I can't.
I was going to experiment withthat all through season and then
the band came, and well, somuch for that idea.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Well, our Oregon guys can still use them.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, oh yeah and try them out.
But as far as I can tell, likethe Blacktail Solution, all
those were really good products.
Blacktail Solution was probablythe most completely down to
like a trench.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Just hammered, huh, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And I was able to go out and put out the rest of it a
few days before the ban tookeffect, because we've got a
dozen or 15 bags of this stuffsitting in the garage.
So I went and used up the restof the black tail solution and
put it back out there, just touse it up, and I haven't gone
(13:38):
and looked at it yet.
Unfortunately, I didn't seewhat came in on that particular
set because my camera died, thebattery died after I put it out.
But oh, that was another pointOne, two does in the last.
Oh, that was another point Onetwo does in the last.
This is the third year I'vedone minerals on that set, so
one, two does max.
Uh-huh.
I had 15, like one or twopictures.
(14:01):
It might have been the same doe, one or two pictures.
They sure had 15 different days.
That deer came in to thatparticular set, nice, and that
was with the black tail dropzone and big and J, which, to
die for, and a lot of times thathasn't been a real strong
(14:24):
attractant for them and it moldspretty quickly out in the rain,
right right, all gone, and youcan see exactly where I poured
it out, because it's just well,you put the black tail drop zone
down on bear dirt anyway, butyou can tell it's all gone and
the others all down dirt duginto the dirt, nice so, and very
(14:45):
few bears.
I did have a couple of bears onsets but I mean, yeah, that's
fine, that's's just a yearly.
But anyway, getting back intoand I just brought that up
because that was a like withLucky that the minerals were
really important for managingthe herd, Right deer health.
(15:06):
Helping the deer health andtrophies, you know making
trophies or making record books.
So you have some animals, morethan just black tail, and you
having Pope and Young, becauseyou're primarily with everything
.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, I archery just everything, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
What all do you have that's in Pope and Young.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I have a cougar.
I have pronghorn several deer.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Did any of your bear make it?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
no, not yet.
I am, however, leaving on abear hunt in manitoba oh, there
you go hope to get a good onebut in all honesty, with the
bear I'm more of a meat hunterthan I am anything else yeah,
that's true you know, I I don'treally there's so many out there
you just, we got to dosomething.
You know, I'm not going to bepicky there's so many out there.
You just we got to do something.
You know I'm not going to bepicky, yeah, but yeah, a lot of
(15:57):
deer pronghorn cougar, you didshotgun for turkey.
Yeah, I did shotgun for turkey.
But yeah, I got some.
It's got some long beards thatare over 11 inches and okay, you
know some good, good birds andwhatnot.
I got 15 bulls but none of themare.
None of them are record bookstatus yet.
But then, Mule, deer.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
But those of you were more meat hunting, you weren't
quite as focused on the trophyaspect.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
As far as trophy, really the Black.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Tails or record book?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I'd say not trophy, yeah, record book.
As far as record book goes,black Tails is really the only
one that really gets me going.
Everything else, if it's legal,you know it's good enough for
me.
Yeah, and on some trophy elkhunts and called in some bulls
for some guys, but that's aboutit.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So I pulled up.
When we're talking about recordbooks, so there's Pope and
Young, for archery Rifle isdoing Boone and Crockett.
Oh, this was something else Iwas going to ask you.
So, having gone to BuckVentures this year and joining
as pro staff for Buck Venturesin the woods myself, so we were
(17:05):
sitting down one evening havingdinner and the CVA guys came and
sat with us.
Yes, and we got to hear a lotabout muzzleloaders and rifles
and what they had going.
Yeah, some really great stuff,but really neat guys.
And it's the.
If you ever watch any CVAYouTube videos, that's the guy
we were sitting down with, tonySmotherland Tony Smotherland, I
(17:26):
keep forgetting his name andthen another guy who worked
there, but it was interestingand I asked what is the?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
effective range of a muzzleloader.
Now Just about fell out of yourseat.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, and they said well, if conditions are perfect,
we can hit 1,000 yards.
I'm like what?
So you know, I'm thinkingeffective range as far as
because there's a certain pointwhere rifles they won't kill.
You're far less likely to killsomething you know, I think like
(18:00):
a Remington 703-08 is like7,800 yards or something like
that, or it might be further,but there's an effective range.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Right, so you need to preface all of this with.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
as far as the 1,000, that the guy that went to there
is a competition shooter.
Yeah yeah, that is above andbeyond the average guy.
But he said that if conditionsare perfect he would take a
thousand yard shot on an animal,Right and he goes.
But typically he'd take any 500yard shot he could get.
And this is also where muzzleloaders, you can have a scope on
them and things like that.
Right, right, but do you thinkso?
As I was looking through theserecord books and it's mostly the
(18:41):
only one that makes a like.
An exception is the NorthwestBig Game record books.
Okay, and they have a muzzleloader category which is very
similar.
You know it's a black powder,but the numbers on those, as far
as what constitutes a recordbook, is very similar, or maybe
(19:02):
even lower than it is forarchery.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Do you think with the inline systems and how modern
these, do you think that they'regoing to adjust those?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
start adjusting.
There's a reason why they don'tlet black.
I mean when it first came out,when black powder first started
catching on, before the inlinebarrels and all of this stuff.
You know, primitive weapon wasright, you know, and there are
still some states where it'slike, no, you have to use the
flintlock style, all that.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Open to the air Northwest compliant.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, that's still limiting you very much.
But, like you said, there arestates where you know you can
put a scope on it.
You know you can shoot thatclose to the weather, all that
stuff, and it's just like, well,no, that's a rifle, that thing.
When you're shooting 500 yardswithout even skipping a beat,
not even thinking twice about it, that's a rifle.
(19:57):
And so what made it primitivewas the limitations that it had
before as far as, because theaverage guy is probably not
going to stretch himself muchmore than 100 yards.
Yeah, I'm talking with a scope,are they?
You gotta have a one power nowone power, I think they're.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
They allow red dots or there's something like that,
but it's a one power.
Scope is what you can use inwashington now, and I'm not sure
about oregon in my mind that'sjust basically readers yeah,
okay, so you got readers onthere.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Okay, but innovation is a great thing.
When I was a kid, I rememberwhen the fastest bow on the
market was 200 feet per secondand it was.
Everybody was talking about itand it was just like, oh my gosh
, and then they cracked thatbarrier.
Then after that it was the 235barrier and then it went up to
the 280 barrier, you know.
(20:49):
And now they, you know, theygot bows that are 370.
And it's like well, theinnovations there's a point
where innovations start hurtingyou, because it no longer can be
considered a primitive weapon.
Yeah.
You know it just isn't.
And if you're going to do that,then what they're going to end
up doing is shortening theseasons.
(21:10):
That's how they solve thatproblem, which is what they've
done with how they solve thatproblem, which is what they've
done with muzzle, which is whatthey've done with muzzle loader.
They've shortened the seasonand then they've taken away
units and stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
It's like eight or nine days and a lot of units
don't have the late muzzleloader anymore because your
efficiency becomes too great.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
You know your harvest rate goes up and and I mean
this is, this, is this is abreeder stock that we're pulling
out of every year and you haveto maintain that balance.
You know well, it's out ofbalance right now because we
have more predators that aren'tbeing managed than we do.
You know, ungulates that arebeing managed.
I mean there's a lot of thingslike anything else that go into
(21:52):
it, and and if you start puttingin it's already out of balance
and you start throwing in allthis, this new technology and
whatnot, then it's really gonnatip and and and then we're going
to be on the downhill side ofsomething that we don't want.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, now I know we have all separate seasons for
everything.
Are there states that whereit's just deer season whatever
weapon you're using, or do theypretty much all separate out
archery and muzzle loader andthey separate them out.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
But you know, like in in a lot of states you buy a
deer tag and and you can huntany far as the weapon yeah, you
just have to hunt with thatweapon yeah you know, and much
like washington, you can alwaysgo down, but you can't upgrade
yeah so if it's archery season,you have to hunt with archery
(22:40):
equipment.
You can't hunt withmuzzleloader or rifle.
But if it's rifle season youcan hunt with archery equipment
if you so choose okay.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
So looking at the record books and these were the
three that I was mainly andreally I didn't realize up until
the show that there was soNorthwest Big Game record books.
I didn't realize that there wasNorthwest records.
I thought that it was just Popeand Young and Boone and
Crockett, that it was just Popeand Young and Boone and Crockett
(23:11):
Because Curry made record andthat's what I couldn't quite
figure out at the time, becausePope and Young is 95, but the
state record is 90.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, the minimum is 90.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
For Columbia Blacktail that was also a
difference.
Actually, it's true for all ofthem.
Columbia, they break downBlacktail a lot more.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
The Northwest record book does yes.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
So Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett, it's Sitka
Blacktail.
But they break it down toColumbia, cascade and Western.
So I know the differencebetween Columbia and Western is
just I-5, right.
Yes yeah, yeah, and Cascadejust a certain level up in the
Cascades.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
No, cascade would be I-5, I believe it is Columbian
is west of I-5.
And I believe Western is at theColumbian is west of I-5.
And I'm assuming the Cascadeobviously is going to be east.
It used to be that.
You know it changes so muchYou've got to really be on top
of this stuff.
I know that for a long time,like Boone not Boone and Crocker
(24:23):
, but Pope and Young consideredanything east of I-5 was
considered a mule deer andanything west of I-5 was
blacktail.
You know, and they've sincechanged that, they've moved that
boundary and whatnot.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Oh here, why didn't I just pull it up on the whip
while you were talking?
Okay, so Cascade, it's lookinglike, oh, that's kind of
interesting.
So it looks like there's anarea east Whatcom County, east
Skagit, so the east part of alot of these counties, but it
would be higher elevation whichmight be the Pacific Crest Trail
(25:01):
.
It's kind of looking like it'sfollowing the Pacific Crest
Trail, maybe it's a little bitfurther over it at a certain
point, but this looks like itencapsulates what I consider
bench leg bucks, this particulararea.
Westerns, huh, but this alsodoesn't have this one in
(25:25):
particular.
It's showing Western iseverything kind of west of I-5.
Maybe Columbia, that'sinteresting.
Yeah, western or coast.
Deer and columbia are justalong the columbia river, so
interesting.
Anyway, they have all thisinformation on the websites
(25:46):
which is really interesting.
Just if you're curious aboutthis type of information.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Right, it's just jumping on these.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So, northwestbiggamecom, you can
Google Boone and Crockett andPope and Young and see what the
minimums are.
But it's like 135 for Boone andCrockett, yep, if you hit 125,
you make the three-year recordbook.
So they'll record it for threeyears.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
And then they drop it .
Speaker 1 (26:12):
To permanently make Boone and Crockett you have to
have a 135.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Right, right, 135.
Which I think is the 135 is theminimum for whitetail on Pope
and Young.
I believe it's either 130 or135.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Oh, I thought it was 140.
But anyway, well, I could lookthat up 145.
Pope and Young is for mule deerWhite tail deer typical is 160
at Boone and Crockett.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Right, I'm talking Pope and Young.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Oh, pope and Young, yes, it's definitely smaller,
with Pope and Young White tailis 125.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Non-typical is 145.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
That's a lot lower than I thought, yeah, but yeah,
all of them are all 90 for anytype of blacktail, right For
archery, it's 90.
It's 95 for muzzleloader andthen it's anywhere from 110 to
125.
Makes Northwest WashingtonState record book for all of
(27:11):
those?
But they do, they break it downfor archery, rifle,
muzzleloader and then they'llalso score sheds.
So if you go out and find ashed you can make a record book
for a shed.
So one of the also I noticedBoone and Crockett is field
judging.
They have really goodinformation about field judging.
So when you're out there, ifthat is your goal to have
(27:32):
something that makes it into therecord book, they break that
down really well.
How do you go about your fieldjudging when you're to decide
and you might not necessarily bedoing it for black tail and you
talked about that.
It's just something that caughtyour eye.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
But if you were to go and field judge, like if you
were looking, how would you?
What would help you decipherhow big a deer is?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
oh, okay, yeah, there's some.
There's some characteristics onblacktail that you can look at
what's going to score better, oror you know how wide is that or
whatever.
So, generally speaking, when ablack tail buck, when his rack
is as wide as his ears, you knowwhere the ears are inside the
rack.
That buck is somewhere around18 and a quarter to 18 and three
(28:22):
quarters inches inside spread.
That's just a given, that'sjust a general given.
That's how big that buck is.
Another thing is you know goodfronts will make up for weak
backs.
Your front splits can reallyhelp make up for back splits
that aren't very strong.
And then a good rule is ifyou're wondering, like guys look
(28:45):
at Lucky and they go, wow, thatbuck's 140, 140s.
But if you really know whatyou're looking at, you look at
that buck and you go, okay, hemight be 120,.
You know at the most, simplybecause everybody thinks width
is going to score better thanheight and it doesn't.
Height always scores betterthan width.
(29:06):
So if you've got a buck that'sreally tall, he's going to score
better than a wider one.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Typically speaking, because it's two scores.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
And width is only one .
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Right yeah, because you're going to go on that main
beam twice.
Yeah, they're really wide,they're only wide ones, you're
only getting one.
Yeah, and that was something,and we'll get back into more
about that, but I was looking atwhere they measure.
So it's width, they measure thecircumference, the diameter.
So if it has eye guards,they'll do one below the eye
(29:38):
guard, one above the eye guard.
If it has no eye guards, theyjust do two in the exact same
spot and then, when the antlerssplit, they'll do one
measurement off of thosebranches, right.
So there's a total of eight ofthose that factor in.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
And so if you've got a buck with, like, when we go up
to and we do the-.
Up in Puyallup, yeah, up inPuyallup, you know, and we get a
lot of Kitsap County buckscoming in and stuff and they're
just, they're so heavy, they'rejust just absolute tanks up
there.
Those bucks will always scorereally good because they have
such really good mass.
Because you're adding up all ofthat and it doesn't seem like
(30:19):
it's a lot, like a lot of buckssay that are just from down in
our neck of the woods, let'sjust say and they're not as
heavy, not even close to beingas heavy.
Yeah.
You know and you realize, man,you're just giving up a lot when
you don't have that mass andthe kids app.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
They carry that mass all the way up and that's just
huge.
So one of the on one of thewebsites I saw that it good mass
on a black tail is four inchcircumference, so around the
racks.
Yeah.
So four times eight is 32inches.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Now if he's three, which is still pretty good mass,
you're losing eight inchesright there.
You know that's knocking itdown to 24.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
And I would say that's probably what we're at.
We're probably, I'd say, theaverage buck around this area
and this, being SouthwestWashington, I would say is
somewhere around that three-inchmark.
Yeah.
You know, but it's funny, and Imean those kits that got to be
pushing four and a half five.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I mean they're just massive bucks We've seen some
that are yeah huge, especiallydown around the eye guard area.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, just baseball bat handles, you know yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
And if you had like a five-inch circumference?
Oh my goodness yeah, all thoselittle things.
But, they said that it's highlyunlikely that you're going to
have and this is one of theBoone and Crockett If you want
to really kind of figure thingsout, their field judging page
has a lot of really goodinformation for figuring out
(31:52):
what you're looking at.
I would say.
So what is being scored?
What's really important, likethree by three.
It's rare for a three by threewithout eye guards.
In fact I think at one pointthey said that there's not a
three by three.
It was sitka, it had to be afour by four.
(32:13):
And when they say four by four,that can be a three by three
with eye guards.
But they said that if it's athree by three, no eye guards
generally doesn't make recordbook.
There are certain things thatyou want to be looking for.
Does it have eye guards?
Does it?
have this, does it have that andbe able?
(32:34):
That helps you with determining, you know, along with, I guess,
your weapon and stuff, soanything else that you consider
when field judging.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
It's hard for me to say you know, because of the way
that I hunt.
You know it's just do.
I got record book.
Yeah, I got record book bucks,but is it something?
I'm just going out there tofind what catches my eye.
And I would say this if youwant to be, if you're someone
that says I don't know how toscore, I don't know how to judge
them, or anything like that,the best thing you can do is
take the bucks that you'vekilled and start measuring them
(33:06):
yourself.
Yeah.
You know what I mean.
Pope and Young has a greatwebsite.
Boone and Crockett has a greatwebsite.
You go right on there andthey'll tell you exactly how to
measure.
They got pictures and diagramsto show you exactly what to do.
And when you start seeing whata 110 to 120 inch looks like,
you know, and the differencebetween those two and whatnot,
(33:29):
you start seeing what thesebucks really measure.
You're able to score relativelyclose out in the field just
because you know what it takes.
And that's all it really is isknowing what it takes, knowing
where the measurements are goingto.
That's what is going to helpyou become a good scorer on the
hoof.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Okay, so hopefully we've steered you in the right
direction for figuring out, whenyou're out there, what is your
record book.
But primarily I'd just say, goafter your trophy.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Have fun.
The trophy is that's you, thatis your hunt and at the end of
the day, it's what you've doneand you've got what?
What you're happy with that'sit.
Yeah, that's it, right thereokay, so till next week go kill
a big one, go kill a big one,yeah.
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