October 20, 2025 • 35 mins
Ever feel that nagging urge to change everything mid‑sit? We’ve been there. This week, we dig into why second guessing wrecks hunts and how a simple, structured plan—paired with honest data—keeps you on track to tag mature blacktails. We lay out the season framework we teach our coaching groups: a calendar you actually follow, the intel you record each day, and the small, repeatable actions that compound into results. No fluff, no hype, just practical steps that build confidence when the woods go quiet.
We talk through the reality behind those giant summer trail‑cam bucks and why locating is the unromantic keystone of success. You’ll learn how to separate summer patterns from in‑season movement, where to position cameras as deer shift toward bedding and staging cover, and how to log direction of travel and timing so you can predict where a dominant buck will appear. We also map out a scent strategy that works with the rut instead of against it: less is more in pre‑rut, scale gradually as multiple does cycle, and keep entry and exits low‑impact so your best buck never knows he’s being hunted.
You’ll hear stories that prove patience is a strategy, not a slogan—multi‑year chases that turned “15 minutes after dark” into “broad daylight” with a 40‑yard move, early‑season records built on years of scouting, and how to decide when it’s actually smart to deviate from your plan. Whether you’re meat‑focused or targeting a single buck, we show how to set expectations, avoid FOMO, and measure success by decisions, not chance.
If this episode helps your mindset for the season, tap follow, share it with a hunting buddy, and drop us a rating on your podcast app. Tell us: what’s the one change you’ll commit to before your next sit?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron.
And I'm Dave.
All right.
So this week kind of had aninspiration for recording
because of all the questionswe've been getting recently.
And it was something I went outfor my first stand Monday to sit
and stand.
And so second guessing yourselfand sticking to the plan
(00:31):
basically how second guessingcan mess up your hunt.
Or maybe it's a good idea.
And we'll talk about that aswell.
But for the most part, you juststart second guessing yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (00:44):
Right.
And it can do more than justwreck your hunt.
It can ruin your season.
Pull yourself out of where youreally need to be.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (00:51):
Because you're just overthinking.
You know, and that's a commonproblem that a lot of, I don't
want to say beginners, but let'sjust say the newer hunters deal
with.
They're trying, we get this alot because of the seminars and
the classes and the boot campand all that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:06):
Yeah, new to a system.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:08):
And we we just flood them with a ton of information.
And then throughout the summer,I don't think there's a day that
goes by that I don't get textmessages from the guys that
either online or in person orone-day class, whatever.
And they're they're wanting totake what they've learned and
(01:28):
either double check it and orclarify or add on to it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
And sometimes, and it's funny because I cover this
in the seminars as well.
We just we overthink things toomuch.
We make it harder than it needsto be.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
Just keep it simple.
SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
And one of the things, and so the guys who go
through the coaching, we do thiswith them.
And also the Patreon guys getthe hunt planner and the gear
guide.
But the hunt planner is the mainthing.
And that's where you sit downand you put on the calendar what
you're doing each particular daythrough season, through your
(02:12):
particular season.
And that's the whole idea.
Whether you're doing sethunting, spot and stock,
glassing clear cuts, it's createa plan that you're going to
stick with.
SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
Right.
And it it's not simply for thesake of a time filler in the
course or anything like that.
It's so that you have structureto your season.
And even when things start goingout, even when you start second
guessing yourself, just stick tothe plan.
Because you do those basics andit's gonna pay off.
SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
And part of that with sticking to the plan is
also we start documenting whenand where we see the bucks come
in or the deer come in.
And that might be what we usenext year to build off of this
year.
Right.
Because I noticed just one ofthe simple things, which
(03:05):
actually didn't occur to meuntil we did the field day this
year.
The dominant bucks that cameinto my set came in from about
10 o'clock.
Uh-huh.
If you're sitting there and melooking directly into my set is
12 o'clock.
So 10 o'clock, that's where thedominant bucks came in.
The non-dominant bucks came infrom 3 o'clock.
(03:29):
So that but it's justdocumenting what time of day
they're coming in and whatdirections.
Okay, I didn't get one of thosedominant bucks last year, but
now I know this is probably thedirection they're gonna come
from.
And I now know the time thatthey're gonna come in.
So that actually changes my planfor this year because I'm gonna
(03:51):
do my drags a little bitdifferently.
I realized I hinge cut a coupleof viny maples so that it forced
them to come in at a certain wayso that I could get a better
shot if I needed things likethat.
But one of the things, and Iwant wanted to address this
because I think it throwsbecause of social media and it's
(04:12):
FOMO or that, you know, theperfect life that we see, the
perfect hunt that we see onsocial media.
We get guys, and you did thislast year with Chris had Field
of Dreams, you had the lockerroom, and these huge bucks all
summer.
And we get guys who will send inpictures with huge bucks.
(04:33):
That's not the norm.
SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
No, not at all.
And I kind of regretted doingthat in the sense that it
created in a lot of guys' mindsan unrealistic expectation.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
So I've been doing this for over 30 years now.
The locating is, and I telleverybody this, it's the most
unromantic part of it of thehunt, but it's the probably the
most key part of the hunt, it'sthe most important part of the
hunt because you can't kill whatyou can't find.
And the field of dreams was aspot that I had that I let Chris
(05:05):
have.
And he ended up taking thenumber three all time out of
there.
So that's the last time I'mgiving any spot away.
But no, it was awesome.
But point being is that I don'twant to point, I stopped putting
up trail cam pics for thatreason.
I don't want to create anunrealistic expectation for
(05:26):
somebody who's just gettingstarted using this system and
thinking that it's gonna be thateasy.
You know what I mean?
You still have to learn thislocating process.
And once you have it down, thenyou're gonna get picks like
that.
But it doesn't the person thatcomes along and gets it to work
right away.
Yeah, you know, not that it'shard, it's just a different
(05:47):
concept, it's a different way ofthinking.
And guys have been trained bypeople that they're it's in
their family or someone thattook them out hunting for the
first time, they've been taughta certain way, and it's hard for
them to let it go.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
And just because it I mean, this is a big deal where
you were getting them even intoseason, but just because you see
them there in the summer doesn'tmean they're gonna be there
during season.
That is summer pattern, that'swhere they're at, and you found
that.
And it might be that they'restill in that area come right
(06:21):
season, but but where I place mycameras in the summer, and where
I place my cameras in the falland winter, two different spots
altogether.
SPEAKER_02 (06:29):
Yeah, and there's a reason why.
SPEAKER_01 (06:31):
And so, like mine, I've never seen and I've had
cameras up the last two years.
This year I didn't do it becauseI kind of went with I knew where
my sets were going to be, and Ididn't feel like I needed to put
up cameras except for I wantedto see how they were hitting the
minerals, and they did this yearreally well, but I didn't put
(06:54):
out cameras, but the last twoyears I've never had a dominant
buck come in on camera untilseason, right?
Until I start doing the scent,so it's that switch flipping
that we talk about that youstart manipulating their
behavior, but and I know there'sjust the excitement for the
(07:14):
season, we get these unrealisticexpectations that oh, I'm gonna
go out there day one and killsomething.
And so as I'm sitting in my seton Monday, this particular set,
I don't see bucks or I didn'tsee anything really until
November start showing up oncamera, which means I sat all
(07:34):
modern, early modern, justsitting in my in my ground line,
staring out the window.
Cursing my name.
But I knew it was going tohappen.
And I but again, I learned somethings and I and I shifted this
year with the way I'm doing it.
And you've talked a lot about inthe classes where it can take
(07:57):
three years to get your buck.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
So that they did a study, and the average hunter.
Now, this is just the averagehunter who puts in the average
amount of time every year.
So I don't know how they come upwith those hours or anything
like that, but they did a studyand found out that the average
hunter, when he targets a buck,it takes him three years to kill
that buck.
Typically, what they're talkingabout is a mature buck.
SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:20):
You know, and there's nothing wrong with
shooting spikes and forkinghorns and three points if that's
what you want.
If that's your trophy, have atit.
Good luck to you.
I'm gonna cheer you on.
But when a mature bucks, andthere's a reason why they're
doing mature bucks becausethey're smart, they're cagey,
they're elusive, they'reisolationists, you know what I
mean?
They just want to be solitaire.
(08:43):
Yeah, and so it takes thathunter three years to learn the
spot, to learn the escaperoutes, to learn the feeding
areas, to learn the beddingareas, to learn the bedroom
door, all of that stuff, youknow.
And that's not saying that youcan't kill them the first year.
I mean, we're looking at it thisyear, and we've already, yep,
we've been in that first week ofSeptember.
(09:03):
Well, September 1st, Cullykilled yeah, Cully Scroggins
killed that monster blacktail,what was it about 11 in the
morning, 10 in the morning,something like that?
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
It was early, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:15):
Yeah, opening day.
And it's like, well, no, thatcan happen.
And then we had two other guyscome in that same week, I
believe, or the Mark was a fewdays later.
SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
But that actually goes back to your point about
locating, right?
And how important locating isbecause that if especially if
you're gonna hunt the earlyarchery, yeah, you gotta put
yourself in a position tosucceed.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (09:37):
You're not going out there just willy-nilly
blindfolding yourself andthrowing a dart at the wall on a
map and say, Okay, I hope oneshows up here.
You know, it it all goes back tothe locating, and yeah, it
happens, it happens all thetime.
But again, realisticexpectations.
You know, there was a lot ofscouting that went into that.
Cully had several years investedin that particular scarface,
(10:03):
yeah, in that particular areathat particular buck.
I know Mark Boone, yeah, he hadwatched that buck all summer and
he had got intel from the seasonbefore, you know, just off of
what his set was and where theywere coming from, and he
realized that he wasn't as closeto the bedroom as he thought he
was, yeah, and then moved andwas able to kill another record
(10:24):
book buck.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
And that was the same situation with Bud when he
went and got Charlie.
Uh, same thing.
SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
He didn't get Charlie the first year, it was
the second year.
Yeah, and it was it took thatleapfrogging with the cameras
down the trail to get 40 yards.
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
It was, and that's what was funny, and that's a
testament to how you caninterpret and read what these
deer are doing.
So the season prior, Charliewould always show up like 15
minutes after dark.
SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02 (10:54):
To Bud's credit, he never took any questionable
shots.
He always like, no, I'm gonnawait.
And he ended up not gettingCharlie that year, but he
learned where Charlie was comingfrom.
He kept using the same trail.
And it only took the reasonwell, there's plenty of reasons
why I moved him up 40 yards, butwe moved him up 40 yards, and it
made a three to four-hour swingin time as to when Charlie was
(11:16):
gonna showing up.
He was daylighting easily beforethe season even started.
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
Yeah, instead of right after it gets dark and you
can't shoot.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Yeah, but it was just a matter of him learning
that season and being patientenough to not take a
questionable shot where he couldhave lost him.
Charlie comes in, there's plentyof daylight, he shoots him, he
doesn't go 30 yards and pilesup.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Yeah.
And that's so one of my sets,which provided I get one of the
target bucks this year, I thinkeven if I don't, I'm going to
rethink where my sets are at forthis year.
So I'm thinking about the ideaof bucks show up, so they have
that the average range, and Ibelieve the average for
(11:59):
Washington, 51 acres.
Yep.
It can be a little bit like ifyour high cascade bucks have a
bigger range because they'removing because of the snow and
foothill bucks, that kind ofstuff.
And they've said, like sitka, Iwas reading that they have as
little as a 20-acre range.
Right.
So thinking about that 50 acres,well, they're not in the full 50
acres every day.
(12:19):
Right.
They're not covering it everyday.
And I have a particular buck twotimes, and I've talked about him
before.
Last year or the first year Iwas hunting, he came in twice,
which is why he got the name twotimes.
Twice during early season, theOctober 17th and the 27th.
He only came in at night.
(12:39):
Last year I had cameras up, andwe were still able to bait, and
I had some apples down and maybesome bedding pheromone.
And he came in.
So the first year it was justhim walking by.
Second year, I had a reason forhim to potentially stop, and he
did, but he only came in atnight about a half dozen times,
(13:01):
but roughly those same ten days.
But again, at he only comesthrough there at night.
I haven't been able to get himto daylight.
And so that but that just kindof tells me, okay, so this is
his range, this is where he's atevery year.
So I can kind of count on himbeing down there every year, but
(13:23):
it's not gonna work because Idon't have that midnight tag to
go hunt him.
But also, like the set I'm in,I've last year I have a feeling
I'm in kind of a November set.
SPEAKER_02 (13:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Does that mean I'm not gonna go out every day?
Oh, yeah, that I possibly can.
No, I absolutely will becauseyou never know.
Yep.
And I started my doing the sensea little bit earlier, lightly,
but it's just one of those whereit's that figuring it out.
SPEAKER_02 (13:52):
Right.
Well, and so the intel that yougathered from last year on two
times, you're able to look atthat and say, okay, I'm not near
the bedroom.
SPEAKER_00 (14:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
He's not staging anywhere in daylight to come
out.
It's like, well, how far afterdaylight?
You know, what is he one hour,two hours, 20 minutes?
You know, and it it's just oneof those things where just a
little movement can change that.
Or you sit there and you look atyour onyx and you go, okay, it's
thicker over here.
That's got to be, that's theclosest thick spot.
He's got to be in there bed.
(14:22):
Yeah, you know, and you movecloser to that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
And it's I know with that spot as well.
There's not an annual rub lineby there.
It's close to there's adominance rub area that's close
by.
But like you've said, they onlydo that at night.
SPEAKER_02 (14:39):
Right, right.
And they don't they don't comeback to those rubs.
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
They just happen to be where they were locking down
a dough one evening or maybedoing a little bit of feeding.
SPEAKER_01 (14:48):
And he's come from that direction where the
dominance rubs are.
Uh-huh.
He's, you know, from thedirection he's walking in, it's
one of two directions.
But usually it's at night orearly in the morning when it's
dark, and he's coming from thatdirection.
Gotcha.
But he's heading basicallyuphill.
Right.
After that.
But it's still, yeah, it that'swhy I like kind of like this
(15:13):
system is you gather all thisinformation and you know where
to go next.
SPEAKER_02 (15:16):
Right, right.
It's a fun chess match, you knowwhat I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02 (15:19):
And it's like you're you're figuring out that deer's
next move.
And the more you know about thebehavior of deer, the more you
know about the habits of deer,the more you know about the
process of thinking as far assurvival, you're able to start
picking movement apart as far aswhere they're going and
understanding why.
And that influences your nextdecision on where you need to
(15:42):
be.
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
And I've talked about, I know this putting it in
terms of so in the educationfield and the mental health
field, which is my professionalbackground, is you you act on
data.
So when it comes to like ourtopic about second guessing, as
I'm sitting in the blind onMonday, I'm like, well, should I
(16:07):
have done this?
Should I do this?
And it's it's the third day ofseason.
I try a little rattle, well,should I rattle more, or should
I do this?
No, it's stick to the plan ofwhat I've got, don't second
guess because I don't want toblow out that area.
I don't want them to know thatokay, there's something there
(16:27):
that sounds like two bucks goingat it, but I know that that's a
dangerous area.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (16:32):
Like, so you don't want to do something that tips
them off.
Right.
And I mean, you talked to youwere just having a conversation
with I think it was with Cully.
So Cully's Scrogan's episode,his success story is coming up,
I think in about three weeks, iswhen we'll release a great
episode.
SPEAKER_02 (16:50):
It was probably our best interview so far.
I'm going to springboard off ofwhat you were saying there and
say this that second guessingstems from previous seasons'
frustration.
That's what it is.
And you have to be able to pushthat back and understand that
you're trying something new.
And I use the analogy of afisherman with a new lure that
(17:13):
they just bought.
You got your favorite lure, andthen you got this other one that
you just bought it brand new,and you never caught a fish on
it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:19):
And you can go out and beat the water with your
favorite lure for 12 hours, notget so much as a bite, put on
that new lure, and you fish thatfor an hour, maybe even 45
minutes.
You get up the next day, hadn'tcaught anything the day before,
you go out fishing.
What do you do?
Put your favorite lure back on,right?
SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:39):
Because you got no confidence in the new one.
And so this is all new.
So guys don't have confidence init, but they've got all this
history of frustration forprevious seasons, not getting
anything, or only shooting whatthey call small ones, or never,
you know, wanting to get arecord book and never even
seeing one.
SPEAKER_00 (17:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:57):
And so it's easy to jump ship early and say this
isn't working.
And there's just a lot ofnegativity that goes along with
that, as far as you startgetting down on yourself, you
start getting down on hunting,and you get frustrated and a
spike steps out or a forkhornand you shoot that thinking I
may not get another chance.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:15):
And that's fine.
You know, you can do that.
But I'm telling you, this systemworks.
And if you just give it aseason, you'll see the results.
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
It's funny because now, like I would have taken,
and I ended up last year.
I got my spike.
He was my first buck, though.
And then the next day, which wasthe last day of modern, I had a
giant three-point come in.
SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
What was it, one o'clock?
SPEAKER_01 (18:39):
One o'clock in the afternoon.
SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
That three point would have been record book.
SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
So it's one of those where it changes this year, my
expectation.
I know he's there.
Right.
So am I well, the spike's nolonger there, so I can't shoot
him, but there are smaller bucksthat could come in, but it's
like if I just wait for thoselast days, he could come walking
(19:03):
by.
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
And I don't even think it's about shooting a
record book buck as much as it'sshooting the buck that you're
happy with.
SPEAKER_01 (19:09):
Your buck, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
You know what I mean?
And not getting frustrated.
This system will work and youwill see bucks, but you've got
to do the system.
You can't cut it short.
It's like any hunt.
You gotta put in the time, yougotta put in the labor, you
gotta put in an honest effort.
Success, like we say, is noaccident.
You have to prepare for it.
SPEAKER_01 (19:28):
Yeah, and it's doing doing things the right way is if
you're with so thinking about ifyou're using sense or maybe
bait, if like the the Oregonguys can still bait.
But you can you gotta thinkthrough that and not I would say
(19:50):
bait, like finding a bait thatthey'll eat.
Because it might not be apples,right?
Most deer will eat apples, butit might not be that.
And I wrote this down about theless is more.
So not overdo you can talk abouta bit about this, but don't
overdo things for your stage ofthe rut, for where you are in
the rut.
(20:11):
So we're right now on pre-rut.
We've seen some where they'revery much not fighting it out
full blown for the dominancewho's the top buck, but we got
some pictures from Ryan theother day, just a little going
at it, a couple of bucks that hegot on camera.
SPEAKER_02 (20:28):
And bucks are nosing does right now.
They're yeah, they're going inthere and they're getting doing
some chasing and stuff.
So yeah, it's definitelypre-rut.
SPEAKER_01 (20:36):
Yeah.
And so, but then here we in acouple of weeks, it'll full
blown rut will be gone.
Yeah.
And so that changes how you'regonna do your scents, you know,
how how much you're going to dothem.
SPEAKER_02 (20:50):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:51):
And that's a good point, Aaron, because I think uh
a lot of guys run out ahead ofthemselves, if you know what I
mean.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:57):
Where they want it to happen so bad that they're
putting out, you know, just atthe beginning of October, oh,
I'm gonna pull in and September.
And they're like, Well, can Istart doing it in the summer?
Washington State did that studywhere they were able to bring
bucks into rut simply byproviding a dough and esteris,
and they brought them into rutin, I believe it was July.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
But was that done on a farmed animal?
SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
Yeah, that is in a controlled environment.
That's not the wild, and it'snot that it won't work, but
let's do realistic expectationshere.
Let's play it smart, let's notdo anything out of the ordinary,
let's manipulate their behaviorwithout them knowing it.
Yeah, because the easiest buckto kill is the one that doesn't
(21:40):
know he's being hunted.
And so if you like you weresaying, less is more.
When I when I hit the middle ofof October, I'm starting to put
out, I just went out the otherday, I'm starting to put out a
little bit of doen estrus, not alot, yeah.
You know, you never want to gocrazy about it and have it spell
like a barnyard in there, butjust a couple squirts, that's
(22:02):
it.
Yeah, and then come the end ofOctober.
If I were rifle hunting or if Ihad the multi-season in
Washington or whatever, which Ido, but I don't have a shooter
to go after right now, so I'mjust gonna continue to do that.
And as we get deeper intoOctober and the beginning of
November, then that increases.
SPEAKER_00 (22:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
Because then I have multiple doughs cycling.
I have multiple doughs travelingthrough the area that are in an
ester cycle.
So these bucks are looking forit, they're searching for it,
they've been familiarized withit, you know.
And then as we get into thatsecond rut, man, I really start
picking up lots of bucks forthat second rut.
(22:41):
For the guys using synthetics,it's never made a difference for
me.
It's never hurt me.
I've used original, I've used100% pure urine and synthetic
urine, and it all works great.
SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
But my expectation is how can I say saddled or
paired with where we're at inthe rut.
If I have dose cycling, then Iwant to use that doe and s and I
expect to have buck activity.
Now, does it happen the sameday?
Not always.
There's a lot of times where Istart out and for a week to a
(23:14):
week and a half, I don't see asingle deer on my cameras.
SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
And I've noticed that for just even the last, I
would say, my first two years ofdoing this system, it's like a
week.
You go a week and then all of asudden the switch flips.
Yeah.
I went through early modernseason, and then we you you have
late modern, but there was thosetwo weeks where I really went
(23:41):
full blown with the system asfar as doing the drags and
everything else, and I wouldstart dragging from like 300
yards into my set because therewere so many game trails running
across this skitter road thatI'm walking along.
And then you saw the result.
After a week of doing this, allof a sudden, the rub line, and
(24:04):
you know, I've got places wherethey're just battling it out.
Right.
A couple of dominant bucks outon this skitter road that did
not happen until like a weekinto it.
And it was the same thing on myset.
Don't really see any bucks,don't see, don't really see any
bucks.
And then all of a sudden, Ithink I didn't actually start
(24:25):
doing drags last year.
I did I did Betting Pheromoneand I had apples out, and I
didn't really have anything comeby.
And as soon as I started thesense, I went from zero bucks on
my set, and it took actually itwas that night to five bucks
coming in the season.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
And it can turn like that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:47):
And three were mature, two were dominant just
shooters.
One was just a giant fork andhorn, and then I had a couple of
younger bucks coming in, but Iknew where I was in that stage
of the rut.
SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
Right.
And that's key.
SPEAKER_01 (25:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
That's key.
That's why we tell guys trailcameras are used for a lot of
things, but most guys use themfor entertainment.
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:08):
You got to get past that and you got to use them for
data collecting.
You've got to be able to sitthere and look at it and go,
okay, see this increase in buckactivity?
That tells me that I'm rightnow, and you'll see it.
It'll increase, it'll taper off,and then it'll increase again.
You mark those weeks downbecause that's the rut.
That's your heart of your rutright there.
(25:28):
That first increase that you gotto know, okay, there's a lot of
dose cycling.
This is the week I need to beout.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:36):
This is the week that you mark it on your counter
because next year that cycle isgonna happen the same time.
It's gonna be that same week.
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
You know, and that rut intensity, whether it's on
your camera, whether it's atnight, or whether it's during
the day, is going to happen.
SPEAKER_00 (25:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:52):
Every year, it's got to do with the amount of
sunlight hitting their eyes,their retina.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
So let's wrap up here and let's talk about when
is it okay to I would saydeviate from your plan.
And I've got a couple ofexamples of when I did.
My I think it was just my firstyear.
SPEAKER_02 (26:12):
And so So for me, I would say if I'm talking to a
new, a new person that that'strying to learn the system, I
would say don't.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
Don't.
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
I would I would say it, and I'm not trying to make
it so that you're not filling atag.
That's the last thing I want todo.
But what I do want you to do islearn, just learn that area,
learn those deer, I guess iswhat I'm trying to say.
Be willing to eat that tag for aseason so that you know, okay,
so I'm not in the right spot tokeep using this trail, yada
(26:44):
yada, yada.
And the time to go and and dothe exploring and everything is
after season.
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
So you can walk that trail back.
Oh, here's the bedding area,here's the bedroom, you know,
it's much thicker here, or thisis why they're using this travel
corridor is because of the windor because of this.
And you can start planning forthe next season.
We talk about that, building onone season from the next.
And so for a beginner, I wouldsay don't.
And it's just for the reasonthat take the time to learn,
(27:14):
take the time to read the sign,take the time to collect the
data.
Because the better you become atthat stuff, the easier it is for
you to fill a tag in comingyears because you're able to
read it right away and go.
Now, for the experienced person,uh for me, I don't like doing a
whole lot of changing.
(27:34):
I gotta know that I know that Iknow.
Yeah, okay, I need to be overthere.
And then when I do it, it's inthe middle of the afternoon.
It's as quickly and as quietlyas I can with the least amount
of impact going on.
Oh, I get in, I get out, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
Yeah.
And this was so my first year,and I didn't do anything without
running it by you first.
Should I try this?
So we had set up, and this isthe kind of the pain of a ladder
stand because it takes threepeople to go put that thing up.
SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
Well, you got a double.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
A double.
SPEAKER_02 (28:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
And I think it would take at least two guys to go put
up a little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (28:08):
I think you called them and said, I'll take the
biggest you guys make.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
Yes, which was great, it was comfortable, real
sturdy.
If you're not real keen onheights, a ladder stand is
actually a really great thingbecause you're also going up and
you got the three points ofcontact.
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
All the it's more stable.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
Yeah.
So I'm up in this, and I'mbecause I'm rifle hunting, I'm
wearing my game ears.
And so it amplifies the soundthat I hear.
And all day I hear grunts goingbehind me, I hear animals moving
down this ridge behind me, butthey're probably not more than
(28:47):
50 yards from me.
But I could also hear themcoming up, and I knew there was
a big game trail to my left.
And so the idea was hopefully Icould get them because I ran my
drags coming back from the leftback into my set.
Well, I could never get them tocome into my set, and I could
hear them walking by on my left,following this game trail,
(29:09):
heading up to from kind of alower bedding area to an upper
bedding area.
And I was checking with you.
I'm like, if I just grabbed theground blind chair and plopped
it down and tied myself into acouple of bushes, should I move
over to this other to where I'mmonitoring that that game trail?
And I put out cameras and I hadmature bucks walking through
(29:33):
during daylight hours on there.
And so for late modern, I hadactually moved over there, but a
big key was of that was I hadactually gone over and put up a
camera to see what was walkingby.
Right.
I had evidence, I had data toback up my decision.
(29:53):
Exactly.
And I knew going over there aswell.
So you have like two weeks inbetween those two seasons where
I could go immediately afterModern ended on October 31st,
where I could go in and cut inanother trail.
To get into that, the backsideof that without having to walk
(30:13):
through their game trail.
And I wasn't going to blow up myhunt by moving over there.
I had the data to say, hey, yougot the shooter bucks coming
over here during the daylighthours, 40 yards away, again,
like with Charlie.
So go move over there.
And now I realize I actuallywalked too far from the gate.
(30:37):
Instead of walking, what thatwas maybe 100, 200 yards down to
that set.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
Oh, yeah, I'd say pretty easily.
SPEAKER_01 (30:43):
Yeah, about 200 yards.
Really, I only needed to walkabout 50 yards from the gate.
Because that was a bigger travelcorridor.
SPEAKER_02 (30:51):
Again, that's learning the area.
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
Learning the area and stuff.
But I'll go back.
Because that's where Anakin'sat.
And next year I'm going afterhim.
And also, like from deviatingfrom your previous years, I
would say.
And you've just talked aboutthat.
It's you've learned, okay, theydid this last year, so now I
(31:14):
need to adjust.
Right.
Going into this year.
SPEAKER_02 (31:17):
I think uh our pro staffer Jimmy Rose and what he's
dealing with with the Buck hecalls the Frenchman.
Now this will be year numberthree that he's after him.
And this is a very large Golly,I'd say he's in the 130s.
He's huge.
He is a very, very beautifulbuck, but he always seems to
show up.
Well, last year it was Jimmywould leave his set, and by the
(31:39):
time he got back to his rig, hewas getting pictures from his
trail camera, and it was theFrenchman on there.
SPEAKER_00 (31:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
And uh he's actually had the Frenchman come in right
at dark, and he just didn't takethe shot, and that's fine.
I absolutely respect that.
But it it's a cat and mousegame.
You learn these animals, youlearn them, you learn why
they're doing what they'redoing, and when they want to do
certain things, and it you justcompile all that information
(32:06):
together and you do your best tomake it happen.
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
Yeah, you know, and he is daylighting in that spot
because he lobbed what a quiverfull of arrows at him the first
year and a little buck fever.
SPEAKER_02 (32:16):
Yeah, but I mean he he did end up filling his tag.
There were three shooters there,and he ended up taking one, and
now he's just got his heart seton the Frenchman.
You know, that's part of the funfor me, you know what I mean?
Is I think that's why I singleout a certain buck.
I didn't fill my tag last year,and it wasn't for a lack of
opportunities as far as bucksgo, but I was after a certain
(32:38):
buck, which I am every year,yeah.
And it doesn't bother me.
If you want to do it like that,where you have a target buck and
you feel like, yeah, that's whatI'm gonna hold out for, go
ahead.
Yeah, but if you're saying, youknow what, I just need to put
meat in the freezer, great, goahead.
SPEAKER_01 (32:51):
Yeah, you know, but have that plan in place for
either one.
SPEAKER_02 (32:55):
So when the season's over, I'm not disappointed with
how it transpired.
SPEAKER_01 (33:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:01):
On my end.
No, I could have, but I chosenot to, and that's fine.
SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
Because at the end of the season, if you second
guessed yourself and ended upwith nothing, you're gonna start
second guessing your secondguessing.
Right.
Which will then cause moresecond guessing.
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Well, and then it then it turns into frustration,
and that's not what we're doingthis for.
SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
It's to you know go harvest something.
So yeah, you gotta stick withthat that plan and just figure
out how to get in there.
And so if you have anyquestions, always feel free to
reach out to us, leave us acomment.
And if you are liking thepodcast, please go in and give
(33:39):
us a rating on on your app thatyou're using, whether it's
iTunes or Apple Podcasts,Spotify, whichever one, Amazon
Music, please go leave us arating.
We'd really appreciate it.
It helps push this out to evenmore, lets us do more with the
podcast and everything.
And things have really blown up.
We've gotten lots of greatcomments, and I wanted to thank
(34:01):
everybody for you know thecomments and the the listening
you guys have been doing.
We got great fans.
It's great getting to meet allof you at the shows.
So when the sportsman show up inPuallop in Portland come up
here, please stop by the booth.
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
Yes, please.
SPEAKER_01 (34:16):
Yes, act like you know us.
SPEAKER_02 (34:17):
Yep, bring pictures of your deer.
SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
Yes, absolutely.
So, anyway, we hope that we helpthe mindset for this year.
Stay focused, and we're lookingforward to seeing those buck
picks, those harvest picks thatyou guys send your grip and
grins.
Always appreciate those.
But until next week.
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron.
And I'm Dave.
All right.
So this week kind of had aninspiration for recording
because of all the questionswe've been getting recently.
And it was something I went outfor my first stand Monday to sit
and stand.
And so second guessing yourselfand sticking to the plan
(00:31):
basically how second guessingcan mess up your hunt.
Or maybe it's a good idea.
And we'll talk about that aswell.
But for the most part, you juststart second guessing yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (00:44):
Right.
And it can do more than justwreck your hunt.
It can ruin your season.
Pull yourself out of where youreally need to be.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (00:51):
Because you're just overthinking.
You know, and that's a commonproblem that a lot of, I don't
want to say beginners, but let'sjust say the newer hunters deal
with.
They're trying, we get this alot because of the seminars and
the classes and the boot campand all that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:06):
Yeah, new to a system.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:08):
And we we just flood them with a ton of information.
And then throughout the summer,I don't think there's a day that
goes by that I don't get textmessages from the guys that
either online or in person orone-day class, whatever.
And they're they're wanting totake what they've learned and
(01:28):
either double check it and orclarify or add on to it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
And sometimes, and it's funny because I cover this
in the seminars as well.
We just we overthink things toomuch.
We make it harder than it needsto be.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
Just keep it simple.
SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
And one of the things, and so the guys who go
through the coaching, we do thiswith them.
And also the Patreon guys getthe hunt planner and the gear
guide.
But the hunt planner is the mainthing.
And that's where you sit downand you put on the calendar what
you're doing each particular daythrough season, through your
(02:12):
particular season.
And that's the whole idea.
Whether you're doing sethunting, spot and stock,
glassing clear cuts, it's createa plan that you're going to
stick with.
SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
Right.
And it it's not simply for thesake of a time filler in the
course or anything like that.
It's so that you have structureto your season.
And even when things start goingout, even when you start second
guessing yourself, just stick tothe plan.
Because you do those basics andit's gonna pay off.
SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
And part of that with sticking to the plan is
also we start documenting whenand where we see the bucks come
in or the deer come in.
And that might be what we usenext year to build off of this
year.
Right.
Because I noticed just one ofthe simple things, which
(03:05):
actually didn't occur to meuntil we did the field day this
year.
The dominant bucks that cameinto my set came in from about
10 o'clock.
Uh-huh.
If you're sitting there and melooking directly into my set is
12 o'clock.
So 10 o'clock, that's where thedominant bucks came in.
The non-dominant bucks came infrom 3 o'clock.
(03:29):
So that but it's justdocumenting what time of day
they're coming in and whatdirections.
Okay, I didn't get one of thosedominant bucks last year, but
now I know this is probably thedirection they're gonna come
from.
And I now know the time thatthey're gonna come in.
So that actually changes my planfor this year because I'm gonna
(03:51):
do my drags a little bitdifferently.
I realized I hinge cut a coupleof viny maples so that it forced
them to come in at a certain wayso that I could get a better
shot if I needed things likethat.
But one of the things, and Iwant wanted to address this
because I think it throwsbecause of social media and it's
(04:12):
FOMO or that, you know, theperfect life that we see, the
perfect hunt that we see onsocial media.
We get guys, and you did thislast year with Chris had Field
of Dreams, you had the lockerroom, and these huge bucks all
summer.
And we get guys who will send inpictures with huge bucks.
(04:33):
That's not the norm.
SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
No, not at all.
And I kind of regretted doingthat in the sense that it
created in a lot of guys' mindsan unrealistic expectation.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
So I've been doing this for over 30 years now.
The locating is, and I telleverybody this, it's the most
unromantic part of it of thehunt, but it's the probably the
most key part of the hunt, it'sthe most important part of the
hunt because you can't kill whatyou can't find.
And the field of dreams was aspot that I had that I let Chris
(05:05):
have.
And he ended up taking thenumber three all time out of
there.
So that's the last time I'mgiving any spot away.
But no, it was awesome.
But point being is that I don'twant to point, I stopped putting
up trail cam pics for thatreason.
I don't want to create anunrealistic expectation for
(05:26):
somebody who's just gettingstarted using this system and
thinking that it's gonna be thateasy.
You know what I mean?
You still have to learn thislocating process.
And once you have it down, thenyou're gonna get picks like
that.
But it doesn't the person thatcomes along and gets it to work
right away.
Yeah, you know, not that it'shard, it's just a different
(05:47):
concept, it's a different way ofthinking.
And guys have been trained bypeople that they're it's in
their family or someone thattook them out hunting for the
first time, they've been taughta certain way, and it's hard for
them to let it go.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
And just because it I mean, this is a big deal where
you were getting them even intoseason, but just because you see
them there in the summer doesn'tmean they're gonna be there
during season.
That is summer pattern, that'swhere they're at, and you found
that.
And it might be that they'restill in that area come right
(06:21):
season, but but where I place mycameras in the summer, and where
I place my cameras in the falland winter, two different spots
altogether.
SPEAKER_02 (06:29):
Yeah, and there's a reason why.
SPEAKER_01 (06:31):
And so, like mine, I've never seen and I've had
cameras up the last two years.
This year I didn't do it becauseI kind of went with I knew where
my sets were going to be, and Ididn't feel like I needed to put
up cameras except for I wantedto see how they were hitting the
minerals, and they did this yearreally well, but I didn't put
(06:54):
out cameras, but the last twoyears I've never had a dominant
buck come in on camera untilseason, right?
Until I start doing the scent,so it's that switch flipping
that we talk about that youstart manipulating their
behavior, but and I know there'sjust the excitement for the
(07:14):
season, we get these unrealisticexpectations that oh, I'm gonna
go out there day one and killsomething.
And so as I'm sitting in my seton Monday, this particular set,
I don't see bucks or I didn'tsee anything really until
November start showing up oncamera, which means I sat all
(07:34):
modern, early modern, justsitting in my in my ground line,
staring out the window.
Cursing my name.
But I knew it was going tohappen.
And I but again, I learned somethings and I and I shifted this
year with the way I'm doing it.
And you've talked a lot about inthe classes where it can take
(07:57):
three years to get your buck.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
So that they did a study, and the average hunter.
Now, this is just the averagehunter who puts in the average
amount of time every year.
So I don't know how they come upwith those hours or anything
like that, but they did a studyand found out that the average
hunter, when he targets a buck,it takes him three years to kill
that buck.
Typically, what they're talkingabout is a mature buck.
SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:20):
You know, and there's nothing wrong with
shooting spikes and forkinghorns and three points if that's
what you want.
If that's your trophy, have atit.
Good luck to you.
I'm gonna cheer you on.
But when a mature bucks, andthere's a reason why they're
doing mature bucks becausethey're smart, they're cagey,
they're elusive, they'reisolationists, you know what I
mean?
They just want to be solitaire.
(08:43):
Yeah, and so it takes thathunter three years to learn the
spot, to learn the escaperoutes, to learn the feeding
areas, to learn the beddingareas, to learn the bedroom
door, all of that stuff, youknow.
And that's not saying that youcan't kill them the first year.
I mean, we're looking at it thisyear, and we've already, yep,
we've been in that first week ofSeptember.
(09:03):
Well, September 1st, Cullykilled yeah, Cully Scroggins
killed that monster blacktail,what was it about 11 in the
morning, 10 in the morning,something like that?
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
It was early, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:15):
Yeah, opening day.
And it's like, well, no, thatcan happen.
And then we had two other guyscome in that same week, I
believe, or the Mark was a fewdays later.
SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
But that actually goes back to your point about
locating, right?
And how important locating isbecause that if especially if
you're gonna hunt the earlyarchery, yeah, you gotta put
yourself in a position tosucceed.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (09:37):
You're not going out there just willy-nilly
blindfolding yourself andthrowing a dart at the wall on a
map and say, Okay, I hope oneshows up here.
You know, it it all goes back tothe locating, and yeah, it
happens, it happens all thetime.
But again, realisticexpectations.
You know, there was a lot ofscouting that went into that.
Cully had several years investedin that particular scarface,
(10:03):
yeah, in that particular areathat particular buck.
I know Mark Boone, yeah, he hadwatched that buck all summer and
he had got intel from the seasonbefore, you know, just off of
what his set was and where theywere coming from, and he
realized that he wasn't as closeto the bedroom as he thought he
was, yeah, and then moved andwas able to kill another record
(10:24):
book buck.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
And that was the same situation with Bud when he
went and got Charlie.
Uh, same thing.
SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
He didn't get Charlie the first year, it was
the second year.
Yeah, and it was it took thatleapfrogging with the cameras
down the trail to get 40 yards.
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
It was, and that's what was funny, and that's a
testament to how you caninterpret and read what these
deer are doing.
So the season prior, Charliewould always show up like 15
minutes after dark.
SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02 (10:54):
To Bud's credit, he never took any questionable
shots.
He always like, no, I'm gonnawait.
And he ended up not gettingCharlie that year, but he
learned where Charlie was comingfrom.
He kept using the same trail.
And it only took the reasonwell, there's plenty of reasons
why I moved him up 40 yards, butwe moved him up 40 yards, and it
made a three to four-hour swingin time as to when Charlie was
(11:16):
gonna showing up.
He was daylighting easily beforethe season even started.
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
Yeah, instead of right after it gets dark and you
can't shoot.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Yeah, but it was just a matter of him learning
that season and being patientenough to not take a
questionable shot where he couldhave lost him.
Charlie comes in, there's plentyof daylight, he shoots him, he
doesn't go 30 yards and pilesup.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Yeah.
And that's so one of my sets,which provided I get one of the
target bucks this year, I thinkeven if I don't, I'm going to
rethink where my sets are at forthis year.
So I'm thinking about the ideaof bucks show up, so they have
that the average range, and Ibelieve the average for
(11:59):
Washington, 51 acres.
Yep.
It can be a little bit like ifyour high cascade bucks have a
bigger range because they'removing because of the snow and
foothill bucks, that kind ofstuff.
And they've said, like sitka, Iwas reading that they have as
little as a 20-acre range.
Right.
So thinking about that 50 acres,well, they're not in the full 50
acres every day.
(12:19):
Right.
They're not covering it everyday.
And I have a particular buck twotimes, and I've talked about him
before.
Last year or the first year Iwas hunting, he came in twice,
which is why he got the name twotimes.
Twice during early season, theOctober 17th and the 27th.
He only came in at night.
(12:39):
Last year I had cameras up, andwe were still able to bait, and
I had some apples down and maybesome bedding pheromone.
And he came in.
So the first year it was justhim walking by.
Second year, I had a reason forhim to potentially stop, and he
did, but he only came in atnight about a half dozen times,
(13:01):
but roughly those same ten days.
But again, at he only comesthrough there at night.
I haven't been able to get himto daylight.
And so that but that just kindof tells me, okay, so this is
his range, this is where he's atevery year.
So I can kind of count on himbeing down there every year, but
(13:23):
it's not gonna work because Idon't have that midnight tag to
go hunt him.
But also, like the set I'm in,I've last year I have a feeling
I'm in kind of a November set.
SPEAKER_02 (13:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Does that mean I'm not gonna go out every day?
Oh, yeah, that I possibly can.
No, I absolutely will becauseyou never know.
Yep.
And I started my doing the sensea little bit earlier, lightly,
but it's just one of those whereit's that figuring it out.
SPEAKER_02 (13:52):
Right.
Well, and so the intel that yougathered from last year on two
times, you're able to look atthat and say, okay, I'm not near
the bedroom.
SPEAKER_00 (14:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
He's not staging anywhere in daylight to come
out.
It's like, well, how far afterdaylight?
You know, what is he one hour,two hours, 20 minutes?
You know, and it it's just oneof those things where just a
little movement can change that.
Or you sit there and you look atyour onyx and you go, okay, it's
thicker over here.
That's got to be, that's theclosest thick spot.
He's got to be in there bed.
(14:22):
Yeah, you know, and you movecloser to that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
And it's I know with that spot as well.
There's not an annual rub lineby there.
It's close to there's adominance rub area that's close
by.
But like you've said, they onlydo that at night.
SPEAKER_02 (14:39):
Right, right.
And they don't they don't comeback to those rubs.
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
They just happen to be where they were locking down
a dough one evening or maybedoing a little bit of feeding.
SPEAKER_01 (14:48):
And he's come from that direction where the
dominance rubs are.
Uh-huh.
He's, you know, from thedirection he's walking in, it's
one of two directions.
But usually it's at night orearly in the morning when it's
dark, and he's coming from thatdirection.
Gotcha.
But he's heading basicallyuphill.
Right.
After that.
But it's still, yeah, it that'swhy I like kind of like this
(15:13):
system is you gather all thisinformation and you know where
to go next.
SPEAKER_02 (15:16):
Right, right.
It's a fun chess match, you knowwhat I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02 (15:19):
And it's like you're you're figuring out that deer's
next move.
And the more you know about thebehavior of deer, the more you
know about the habits of deer,the more you know about the
process of thinking as far assurvival, you're able to start
picking movement apart as far aswhere they're going and
understanding why.
And that influences your nextdecision on where you need to
(15:42):
be.
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
And I've talked about, I know this putting it in
terms of so in the educationfield and the mental health
field, which is my professionalbackground, is you you act on
data.
So when it comes to like ourtopic about second guessing, as
I'm sitting in the blind onMonday, I'm like, well, should I
(16:07):
have done this?
Should I do this?
And it's it's the third day ofseason.
I try a little rattle, well,should I rattle more, or should
I do this?
No, it's stick to the plan ofwhat I've got, don't second
guess because I don't want toblow out that area.
I don't want them to know thatokay, there's something there
(16:27):
that sounds like two bucks goingat it, but I know that that's a
dangerous area.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (16:32):
Like, so you don't want to do something that tips
them off.
Right.
And I mean, you talked to youwere just having a conversation
with I think it was with Cully.
So Cully's Scrogan's episode,his success story is coming up,
I think in about three weeks, iswhen we'll release a great
episode.
SPEAKER_02 (16:50):
It was probably our best interview so far.
I'm going to springboard off ofwhat you were saying there and
say this that second guessingstems from previous seasons'
frustration.
That's what it is.
And you have to be able to pushthat back and understand that
you're trying something new.
And I use the analogy of afisherman with a new lure that
(17:13):
they just bought.
You got your favorite lure, andthen you got this other one that
you just bought it brand new,and you never caught a fish on
it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:19):
And you can go out and beat the water with your
favorite lure for 12 hours, notget so much as a bite, put on
that new lure, and you fish thatfor an hour, maybe even 45
minutes.
You get up the next day, hadn'tcaught anything the day before,
you go out fishing.
What do you do?
Put your favorite lure back on,right?
SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:39):
Because you got no confidence in the new one.
And so this is all new.
So guys don't have confidence init, but they've got all this
history of frustration forprevious seasons, not getting
anything, or only shooting whatthey call small ones, or never,
you know, wanting to get arecord book and never even
seeing one.
SPEAKER_00 (17:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:57):
And so it's easy to jump ship early and say this
isn't working.
And there's just a lot ofnegativity that goes along with
that, as far as you startgetting down on yourself, you
start getting down on hunting,and you get frustrated and a
spike steps out or a forkhornand you shoot that thinking I
may not get another chance.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:15):
And that's fine.
You know, you can do that.
But I'm telling you, this systemworks.
And if you just give it aseason, you'll see the results.
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
It's funny because now, like I would have taken,
and I ended up last year.
I got my spike.
He was my first buck, though.
And then the next day, which wasthe last day of modern, I had a
giant three-point come in.
SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
What was it, one o'clock?
SPEAKER_01 (18:39):
One o'clock in the afternoon.
SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
That three point would have been record book.
SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
So it's one of those where it changes this year, my
expectation.
I know he's there.
Right.
So am I well, the spike's nolonger there, so I can't shoot
him, but there are smaller bucksthat could come in, but it's
like if I just wait for thoselast days, he could come walking
(19:03):
by.
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
And I don't even think it's about shooting a
record book buck as much as it'sshooting the buck that you're
happy with.
SPEAKER_01 (19:09):
Your buck, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
You know what I mean?
And not getting frustrated.
This system will work and youwill see bucks, but you've got
to do the system.
You can't cut it short.
It's like any hunt.
You gotta put in the time, yougotta put in the labor, you
gotta put in an honest effort.
Success, like we say, is noaccident.
You have to prepare for it.
SPEAKER_01 (19:28):
Yeah, and it's doing doing things the right way is if
you're with so thinking about ifyou're using sense or maybe
bait, if like the the Oregonguys can still bait.
But you can you gotta thinkthrough that and not I would say
(19:50):
bait, like finding a bait thatthey'll eat.
Because it might not be apples,right?
Most deer will eat apples, butit might not be that.
And I wrote this down about theless is more.
So not overdo you can talk abouta bit about this, but don't
overdo things for your stage ofthe rut, for where you are in
the rut.
(20:11):
So we're right now on pre-rut.
We've seen some where they'revery much not fighting it out
full blown for the dominancewho's the top buck, but we got
some pictures from Ryan theother day, just a little going
at it, a couple of bucks that hegot on camera.
SPEAKER_02 (20:28):
And bucks are nosing does right now.
They're yeah, they're going inthere and they're getting doing
some chasing and stuff.
So yeah, it's definitelypre-rut.
SPEAKER_01 (20:36):
Yeah.
And so, but then here we in acouple of weeks, it'll full
blown rut will be gone.
Yeah.
And so that changes how you'regonna do your scents, you know,
how how much you're going to dothem.
SPEAKER_02 (20:50):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:51):
And that's a good point, Aaron, because I think uh
a lot of guys run out ahead ofthemselves, if you know what I
mean.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:57):
Where they want it to happen so bad that they're
putting out, you know, just atthe beginning of October, oh,
I'm gonna pull in and September.
And they're like, Well, can Istart doing it in the summer?
Washington State did that studywhere they were able to bring
bucks into rut simply byproviding a dough and esteris,
and they brought them into rutin, I believe it was July.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
But was that done on a farmed animal?
SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
Yeah, that is in a controlled environment.
That's not the wild, and it'snot that it won't work, but
let's do realistic expectationshere.
Let's play it smart, let's notdo anything out of the ordinary,
let's manipulate their behaviorwithout them knowing it.
Yeah, because the easiest buckto kill is the one that doesn't
(21:40):
know he's being hunted.
And so if you like you weresaying, less is more.
When I when I hit the middle ofof October, I'm starting to put
out, I just went out the otherday, I'm starting to put out a
little bit of doen estrus, not alot, yeah.
You know, you never want to gocrazy about it and have it spell
like a barnyard in there, butjust a couple squirts, that's
(22:02):
it.
Yeah, and then come the end ofOctober.
If I were rifle hunting or if Ihad the multi-season in
Washington or whatever, which Ido, but I don't have a shooter
to go after right now, so I'mjust gonna continue to do that.
And as we get deeper intoOctober and the beginning of
November, then that increases.
SPEAKER_00 (22:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
Because then I have multiple doughs cycling.
I have multiple doughs travelingthrough the area that are in an
ester cycle.
So these bucks are looking forit, they're searching for it,
they've been familiarized withit, you know.
And then as we get into thatsecond rut, man, I really start
picking up lots of bucks forthat second rut.
(22:41):
For the guys using synthetics,it's never made a difference for
me.
It's never hurt me.
I've used original, I've used100% pure urine and synthetic
urine, and it all works great.
SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
But my expectation is how can I say saddled or
paired with where we're at inthe rut.
If I have dose cycling, then Iwant to use that doe and s and I
expect to have buck activity.
Now, does it happen the sameday?
Not always.
There's a lot of times where Istart out and for a week to a
(23:14):
week and a half, I don't see asingle deer on my cameras.
SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
And I've noticed that for just even the last, I
would say, my first two years ofdoing this system, it's like a
week.
You go a week and then all of asudden the switch flips.
Yeah.
I went through early modernseason, and then we you you have
late modern, but there was thosetwo weeks where I really went
(23:41):
full blown with the system asfar as doing the drags and
everything else, and I wouldstart dragging from like 300
yards into my set because therewere so many game trails running
across this skitter road thatI'm walking along.
And then you saw the result.
After a week of doing this, allof a sudden, the rub line, and
(24:04):
you know, I've got places wherethey're just battling it out.
Right.
A couple of dominant bucks outon this skitter road that did
not happen until like a weekinto it.
And it was the same thing on myset.
Don't really see any bucks,don't see, don't really see any
bucks.
And then all of a sudden, Ithink I didn't actually start
(24:25):
doing drags last year.
I did I did Betting Pheromoneand I had apples out, and I
didn't really have anything comeby.
And as soon as I started thesense, I went from zero bucks on
my set, and it took actually itwas that night to five bucks
coming in the season.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
And it can turn like that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:47):
And three were mature, two were dominant just
shooters.
One was just a giant fork andhorn, and then I had a couple of
younger bucks coming in, but Iknew where I was in that stage
of the rut.
SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
Right.
And that's key.
SPEAKER_01 (25:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
That's key.
That's why we tell guys trailcameras are used for a lot of
things, but most guys use themfor entertainment.
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:08):
You got to get past that and you got to use them for
data collecting.
You've got to be able to sitthere and look at it and go,
okay, see this increase in buckactivity?
That tells me that I'm rightnow, and you'll see it.
It'll increase, it'll taper off,and then it'll increase again.
You mark those weeks downbecause that's the rut.
That's your heart of your rutright there.
(25:28):
That first increase that you gotto know, okay, there's a lot of
dose cycling.
This is the week I need to beout.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:36):
This is the week that you mark it on your counter
because next year that cycle isgonna happen the same time.
It's gonna be that same week.
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
You know, and that rut intensity, whether it's on
your camera, whether it's atnight, or whether it's during
the day, is going to happen.
SPEAKER_00 (25:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:52):
Every year, it's got to do with the amount of
sunlight hitting their eyes,their retina.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
So let's wrap up here and let's talk about when
is it okay to I would saydeviate from your plan.
And I've got a couple ofexamples of when I did.
My I think it was just my firstyear.
SPEAKER_02 (26:12):
And so So for me, I would say if I'm talking to a
new, a new person that that'strying to learn the system, I
would say don't.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
Don't.
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
I would I would say it, and I'm not trying to make
it so that you're not filling atag.
That's the last thing I want todo.
But what I do want you to do islearn, just learn that area,
learn those deer, I guess iswhat I'm trying to say.
Be willing to eat that tag for aseason so that you know, okay,
so I'm not in the right spot tokeep using this trail, yada
(26:44):
yada, yada.
And the time to go and and dothe exploring and everything is
after season.
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
So you can walk that trail back.
Oh, here's the bedding area,here's the bedroom, you know,
it's much thicker here, or thisis why they're using this travel
corridor is because of the windor because of this.
And you can start planning forthe next season.
We talk about that, building onone season from the next.
And so for a beginner, I wouldsay don't.
And it's just for the reasonthat take the time to learn,
(27:14):
take the time to read the sign,take the time to collect the
data.
Because the better you become atthat stuff, the easier it is for
you to fill a tag in comingyears because you're able to
read it right away and go.
Now, for the experienced person,uh for me, I don't like doing a
whole lot of changing.
(27:34):
I gotta know that I know that Iknow.
Yeah, okay, I need to be overthere.
And then when I do it, it's inthe middle of the afternoon.
It's as quickly and as quietlyas I can with the least amount
of impact going on.
Oh, I get in, I get out, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
Yeah.
And this was so my first year,and I didn't do anything without
running it by you first.
Should I try this?
So we had set up, and this isthe kind of the pain of a ladder
stand because it takes threepeople to go put that thing up.
SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
Well, you got a double.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
A double.
SPEAKER_02 (28:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
And I think it would take at least two guys to go put
up a little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (28:08):
I think you called them and said, I'll take the
biggest you guys make.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
Yes, which was great, it was comfortable, real
sturdy.
If you're not real keen onheights, a ladder stand is
actually a really great thingbecause you're also going up and
you got the three points ofcontact.
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
All the it's more stable.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
Yeah.
So I'm up in this, and I'mbecause I'm rifle hunting, I'm
wearing my game ears.
And so it amplifies the soundthat I hear.
And all day I hear grunts goingbehind me, I hear animals moving
down this ridge behind me, butthey're probably not more than
(28:47):
50 yards from me.
But I could also hear themcoming up, and I knew there was
a big game trail to my left.
And so the idea was hopefully Icould get them because I ran my
drags coming back from the leftback into my set.
Well, I could never get them tocome into my set, and I could
hear them walking by on my left,following this game trail,
(29:09):
heading up to from kind of alower bedding area to an upper
bedding area.
And I was checking with you.
I'm like, if I just grabbed theground blind chair and plopped
it down and tied myself into acouple of bushes, should I move
over to this other to where I'mmonitoring that that game trail?
And I put out cameras and I hadmature bucks walking through
(29:33):
during daylight hours on there.
And so for late modern, I hadactually moved over there, but a
big key was of that was I hadactually gone over and put up a
camera to see what was walkingby.
Right.
I had evidence, I had data toback up my decision.
(29:53):
Exactly.
And I knew going over there aswell.
So you have like two weeks inbetween those two seasons where
I could go immediately afterModern ended on October 31st,
where I could go in and cut inanother trail.
To get into that, the backsideof that without having to walk
(30:13):
through their game trail.
And I wasn't going to blow up myhunt by moving over there.
I had the data to say, hey, yougot the shooter bucks coming
over here during the daylighthours, 40 yards away, again,
like with Charlie.
So go move over there.
And now I realize I actuallywalked too far from the gate.
(30:37):
Instead of walking, what thatwas maybe 100, 200 yards down to
that set.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
Oh, yeah, I'd say pretty easily.
SPEAKER_01 (30:43):
Yeah, about 200 yards.
Really, I only needed to walkabout 50 yards from the gate.
Because that was a bigger travelcorridor.
SPEAKER_02 (30:51):
Again, that's learning the area.
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
Learning the area and stuff.
But I'll go back.
Because that's where Anakin'sat.
And next year I'm going afterhim.
And also, like from deviatingfrom your previous years, I
would say.
And you've just talked aboutthat.
It's you've learned, okay, theydid this last year, so now I
(31:14):
need to adjust.
Right.
Going into this year.
SPEAKER_02 (31:17):
I think uh our pro staffer Jimmy Rose and what he's
dealing with with the Buck hecalls the Frenchman.
Now this will be year numberthree that he's after him.
And this is a very large Golly,I'd say he's in the 130s.
He's huge.
He is a very, very beautifulbuck, but he always seems to
show up.
Well, last year it was Jimmywould leave his set, and by the
(31:39):
time he got back to his rig, hewas getting pictures from his
trail camera, and it was theFrenchman on there.
SPEAKER_00 (31:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
And uh he's actually had the Frenchman come in right
at dark, and he just didn't takethe shot, and that's fine.
I absolutely respect that.
But it it's a cat and mousegame.
You learn these animals, youlearn them, you learn why
they're doing what they'redoing, and when they want to do
certain things, and it you justcompile all that information
(32:06):
together and you do your best tomake it happen.
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
Yeah, you know, and he is daylighting in that spot
because he lobbed what a quiverfull of arrows at him the first
year and a little buck fever.
SPEAKER_02 (32:16):
Yeah, but I mean he he did end up filling his tag.
There were three shooters there,and he ended up taking one, and
now he's just got his heart seton the Frenchman.
You know, that's part of the funfor me, you know what I mean?
Is I think that's why I singleout a certain buck.
I didn't fill my tag last year,and it wasn't for a lack of
opportunities as far as bucksgo, but I was after a certain
(32:38):
buck, which I am every year,yeah.
And it doesn't bother me.
If you want to do it like that,where you have a target buck and
you feel like, yeah, that's whatI'm gonna hold out for, go
ahead.
Yeah, but if you're saying, youknow what, I just need to put
meat in the freezer, great, goahead.
SPEAKER_01 (32:51):
Yeah, you know, but have that plan in place for
either one.
SPEAKER_02 (32:55):
So when the season's over, I'm not disappointed with
how it transpired.
SPEAKER_01 (33:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:01):
On my end.
No, I could have, but I chosenot to, and that's fine.
SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
Because at the end of the season, if you second
guessed yourself and ended upwith nothing, you're gonna start
second guessing your secondguessing.
Right.
Which will then cause moresecond guessing.
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Well, and then it then it turns into frustration,
and that's not what we're doingthis for.
SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
It's to you know go harvest something.
So yeah, you gotta stick withthat that plan and just figure
out how to get in there.
And so if you have anyquestions, always feel free to
reach out to us, leave us acomment.
And if you are liking thepodcast, please go in and give
(33:39):
us a rating on on your app thatyou're using, whether it's
iTunes or Apple Podcasts,Spotify, whichever one, Amazon
Music, please go leave us arating.
We'd really appreciate it.
It helps push this out to evenmore, lets us do more with the
podcast and everything.
And things have really blown up.
We've gotten lots of greatcomments, and I wanted to thank
(34:01):
everybody for you know thecomments and the the listening
you guys have been doing.
We got great fans.
It's great getting to meet allof you at the shows.
So when the sportsman show up inPuallop in Portland come up
here, please stop by the booth.
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
Yes, please.
SPEAKER_01 (34:16):
Yes, act like you know us.
SPEAKER_02 (34:17):
Yep, bring pictures of your deer.
SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
Yes, absolutely.
So, anyway, we hope that we helpthe mindset for this year.
Stay focused, and we're lookingforward to seeing those buck
picks, those harvest picks thatyou guys send your grip and
grins.
Always appreciate those.
But until next week.
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