June 16, 2025 • 39 mins
The legends of blacktail hunting have left an indelible mark on how we pursue these elusive deer, yet many hunters remain unfamiliar with the masters who developed the techniques we use today. From deep in the high Cascades to the dense coastal forests, these pioneering hunters have unlocked secrets that transformed blacktail success rates for those willing to learn.
Steve Isdahl's relentless 365-day approach to understanding deer patterns. Cameron Haynes's revolutionary insights about habitat edges where different environments meet. Scott Haugen's systematic breakdown of blacktail subspecies. The wisdom these hunters share transcends mere tactics - it reveals a mindset of observation, patience, and adaptation that distinguishes casual hunters from consistent trophy takers.
What's particularly fascinating is where their diverse approaches converge. Despite different hunting styles, locations, and weapon preferences, certain principles remain consistent across their teachings. Perhaps most surprisingly, none of these accomplished hunters focus on clear-cuts – the very areas many beginning hunters are taught to prioritize. Instead, they hunt thick cover, exercising extreme patience and methodical attention to detail.
Beyond the big names, we explore under-the-radar legends like Smokey Crews - a record book regular whose humility often masks his extraordinary accomplishments. His approach teaches us to read hunting literature not merely for entertainment but to extract applicable knowledge from every article, regardless of species or location. This continuous learning mindset, coupled with the patience to let hunting scenarios develop naturally rather than forcing action, demonstrates why these masters consistently succeed where others fail.
Whether you're just starting your blacktail journey or looking to elevate decades of experience, diving into the wisdom of these hunting legends provides a roadmap not just for where to hunt, but how to think about hunting. Subscribe now and join our exploration of blacktail hunting's most influential figures!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron and I'm Dave, so wegot a message on a comment from
Spotify and if you ever want toleave comments, love getting
comments because it's helpful,because sometimes we get an idea
to do a podcast episode out ofit, like this week.
For some reason, though Apple,I can't see any comments.
(00:23):
So if anybody's left anycomments that I haven't
responded to on Apple, yeah, forsome reason their system's kind
of wonky.
So thank you for leavingreviews, but if you leave
comments, yeah, I just can't seethem.
But anyway, spotify, it's realeasy for me to get in there
through kind of the back end andsee comments and be able to
(00:46):
reply.
But somebody commented aboutwhy no mention of boyd iverson
and I realized that you talkabout a lot of these guys that
are big names in blacktail rightoff air off air yeah, and it
just it's not intentional, itjust that's the way it happens
sometimes but I was like, hey,thanks for bringing that to our
attention.
We've never really talked aboutnames and for guys who you know,
(01:09):
even if you're well-establishedin hunting and you've been
hunting for years, you might notrecognize some of these names
or you're new to hunting and youwant more resources because you
just really want to learn andyou know it's always good to get
information from a bunch ofdifferent resources.
So if you've taken the classand really all you know is
Dave's system, it helps and I'vefound this because I've read
(01:33):
some of these guys, some oftheir articles and stuff it
helps with understanding yourconcepts even more.
Right, right, yeah, and goingback, because this is where you
got a lot of these your system,just puzzle pieces that were all
put together that other guyshad figured out before me.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I'm not a smart guy, you know.
I've just taken what they'vefigured out and put it together,
that's all.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
But when it's a passion, yeah, it makes you,
even if you're not a smart guy.
It's just you're so focused onwanting to know this particular
topic that, yeah, you spend timein figuring it out.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
And that's the thing, when we're going to go through
these names that I gave you andeverything.
And you're going to see or atleast I began to see that when
like three or four of these guysstart saying the same thing,
you know you really got to startlistening.
You know there's something toit.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, you know, that's interesting because I
think we've talked about wetalked about that in a previous
episode that like if when I wasbuying the equipment for
recording the podcast, it's Ipull up articles best you know
mixer or best mics in thisbudget, or whatever, I read like
four articles and whatever theyagree on is what I go with, and
(02:49):
so, but it's kind of that sameidea is you read all these
articles whatever they agree onyou, kind of that's what you go
with.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Right.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, same concept right there.
So we're going to go throughthese names You'll talk about,
you know, do they have a bookout, whether or not you can find
the book anymore, because someof these guys the books are out
of print, and then just kind ofwhat, maybe what their specialty
is, because some of these guyshave different ways that they
hunt, but what you've gleanedoff of them, sure, you know.
(03:16):
Just kind of go through that.
So first one, steve Isdahl.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Probably, I would say right now is one of the top
three most popular blacktailhunters out there what what a
guy.
You know he.
He's like another name on thislist, nathan endicott.
He does a lot of steve, does alot of high cascade okay
blacktail hunting.
He's out of vancouver, britishcolumbia.
Up there up in canada he was aguide, or is a guide, for
several species stone sheep anddeer and whatnot.
(03:49):
And reading his book andwatching his stuff on YouTube,
this guy, I'm telling you, ifyou're going to walk away with
anything from this guy, thething that you need to pick up
mostly is just how much time heis focused on black tail.
Okay, his passion comes through.
And I think you know because Itell guys you know when they
(04:13):
take my seminar, when I findthat bedroom door, when I find
the bedroom where they'rebedding that core area, and then
I find the bedroom door, Idon't necessarily have to go
back till two weeks beforeseason.
Yeah Right, this style ofhunting that he is doing is much
like, again, nathan Endicott's.
These guys put a lot of hoursin learning their deer herd and
(04:36):
I mean it's not simply a hobby,it is a passion.
And for the kind of bucks thatthese guys harvest and if you
see Steve Vistal, he justharvests monsters I mean
absolute giants.
But he knows that deer herd.
He has learned that deer herdover a series of years and put
(04:57):
in a lot of time and miles onhis feet to figure it out, miles
on his feet to figure it out,you know, because he where these
deer migrate because of thesnow and everything that that
they're going okay, yeah, that'sright the location, and so they
they figured out exactly wherethese deer want to be and how
they're going to move and allthis stuff and it's a 365 day a
(05:19):
year quest for them and I I loveit, you know, watching it.
Steve has a book out.
It's just out last year and, nooffense, steve, I think you're
a great hunter.
You're fantastic.
I learned a lot from you.
I think you need to get aneditor, though, you know,
because some of this stuff islike there's some spots in there
(05:40):
where you'll read the sameparagraph three different times,
you know, in a row, justbecause it's an editor thing.
But if you're reading it forstories Steve has a lot of
stories but look beyond hisstories, look deeper into his
stories and recognize what he'sdoing and see his train of
thought with every step that hemakes, and if you do that,
you're going to glean a lot offthis guy, because he is smart,
(06:03):
you know, and it's just you gotto look into deeper into the
story than just forentertainment, I guess, is what
I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, okay, next one, cameron Haynes.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Cameron Haynes I, what can you say?
I mean as far as PacificNorthwest Blacktail, you know
he's the that I learned.
You know the edges and wheretwo habitats come together.
Okay, he was a hundred percentright on that.
A hundred percent right.
That is black tail country,that is black tail travel
(06:35):
corridors, that is, that isblack tail period.
And you know he grew up down inLane County, the Mecca.
He's got a DVD out onblack-tailed trophy hunting and
a book on trophy black-tailedtactics which I think is out of
print right now, or I thinksomebody was saying they could
pick up a copy for like $300 orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, when it goes out of print and people start
getting desperate, you can findit on a used copy on like amazon
yeah or ebay.
But yeah, you pay for it right?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
yeah, and it's a.
It's a really good book.
It's, of course, that'scameron's forte, you know
writing writing and editing andall that and and it's really
well put together.
It's not just cameron.
He's got a whole sectiondedicated to other hunters that
are black tail hunters that arefamous.
One of them is a good friend ofmine.
He's in that book, smokey Cruz.
(07:30):
Want to fuel this black tailaddiction.
I'm just getting into this andand just you know, at the
beginning stages that book willwill kind of seal the deal for
(07:51):
you as far as okay, I'm in ormaybe, or even watching DVDs, or
yeah, I think the DVD is alittle bit easier to obtain than
the book.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So, and he seems to be don't celebrity status for
hunter, because I know he was onjoe rogan, yeah as well, and so
cam's big into the fitness.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I mean he runs his marathons, he does a lot of
lifting and stuff.
He's getting up there in age,like the rest of us and and so
he's.
You know his he.
You know he's known for hisbackcountry hunts, okay.
And so a lot of guys are intothat, a lot of younger guys are
into that, and even us olderguys are still trying to stay in
shape and get another hunt outof our, a couple more hunts out
(08:34):
of our body before it finallydecides to quit.
No, they look to him and he'searned it.
It's very well-deserved.
He's very accomplished and avery popular hunter at the time.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
So the next name on the list, Scott Haugen.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Probably.
I'd say he and Boyd Iverson areprobably the godfathers of the
blacktail hunting community.
Okay, scott has a book and Ihave that book and I read it
Great book.
I love how he breaks blacktaildown into four or five different
categories, from Cascade Bucksto Coastal Bucks to Valley Bucks
(09:11):
to Foothill Bucks, and hereally does a great job of
breaking it down and helping youunderstand the little nuances
between them and at the sametime still keeping in focus that
they are blacktail, that a lotof the stuff they do is the same
and that, even though you know,weather conditions might change
(09:32):
their right behavior a littlebit right there's.
They're still very elusive andand yet still attainable if you
focus on it.
You know he breaks it down andmore of a I won't say
statistical, but he makes it forme, for a guy that has more of
a process type brain.
I like how Scott breaks it down, like that, you know where it's
.
Like this, this, this, this.
(09:53):
You know this, plus this, plusthis.
I can relate to that better.
Okay, and I think it's a reallygood book in that sense,
Probably the best that I've readas far as for black tail on the
market.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And we've referenced, like talking about the wind and
things like that.
I know a lot of the informationthat I brought in previous
episodes has been because ofarticles I've read of Scott
Haugen's.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Right, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
So next one, Larry D Jones.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Larry D Jones.
So if Scott Haugen is thegodfather, larry D Jones is his
grandpa.
Basically, talk about a guythat's just inspirational, not
only because of his age, but Imean just if you've ever watched
any of his videos, you've everread any of his articles, it
just he makes it fun, he takesit and he makes it fun.
(10:43):
And I mean the guy is, isreally, he's sharp, he really is
.
I mean he's come up with hisown calls and stuff over the
years and and still makingvideos.
You know, and he's got onethat's on cameron haynes's dvd.
There's a clip of a hunt or ahunt of larry d jones in oregon
(11:03):
where I, the guy is justphenomenal.
He's still killing big bucks.
It doesn't matter how.
I mean the guy knows how to doit, he's got the patience, he's
got the wherewithal and just thefortuitousness to say I'm going
to do this and I'm going tohave fun doing it.
It doesn't get discouraging forhim.
(11:23):
He misses a big buck on thatclip one day, two days later he
kills one that's even bigger.
It's just like.
But the guy is justinspirational to be doing it at
his age and still having thesame amount of fun, if not more,
throughout the entirety of hiscareer is just really admirable,
in my opinion.
(11:44):
A lot of guys get bored of it.
A lot of guys get frustratedwhen things don't go their way.
I mean, we've done, we've donethe episode.
You know, when things go south,larry d jones just kind of
smiles and laughs through it allyeah you know, and then at the
end of the season he fills histag.
Yep, you know, and it's like,well, that's awesome.
A lot of us go home and cry inour coffee and throw our bows or
(12:05):
our weapons down in the corner.
And I've had it.
This is stupid, Does?
Speaker 1 (12:08):
he have a book.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So you know, I don't know if he does.
To be honest with you, I'vejust seen him in a lot of books.
Like a lot of other people'sstuff, their books.
He's been around so long.
He's kind of been everywhereyou know.
Yeah, he's in magazines all thetime and whatnot, and he's had
videos for decades.
So he's just kind of been thecornerstone that everything kind
(12:31):
of got built off of.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Okay, next one, dwight Shrew.
I almost said Dwight ShrewLittle office.
Yeah, dwight Shrew, we almostsaid Dwight Schrute, little
office.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, dwight Shue, we can talk about bears right now,
black bears.
Dwight Shue just passed here,boy, has it been four years ago,
five years ago?
Okay.
Something like that, and Ireferenced him in some of my
seminars about how he came outand won the Big Buck Challenge
for the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I think we've also mentioned him in previous
episodes a couple times, becausehe's the one who kind of got
everybody thinking about, forblack-tailed tree stand hunting
Right right.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
That was his secret to success and winning that
contest.
But I mean, if you watch a lotof the early Larry D Jones
videos on DVD and whatnot,you'll notice that those two
hunted together.
They were hunting partners fora long time and very
knowledgeable both of them.
So Larry D Jones was a recurvelongbow shooter and Dwight Shue
was a compound shooter.
(13:33):
And just inspiring how hebreaks everything down, going
into an out-of-state hunt, goinginto a new territory, going
into an area that he's neverhunted before and watching him
systematically break it down towhere he's like okay, this is
what I need to figure out first,and when I figure out that,
(13:54):
then I need to figure out this,and that should lead me to this,
to this, to this and ultimatelyto being a successful hunt,
whether he fills his tag or not,just being in the game you know
, so to speak, which for a lotof guys going into a new area,
going and hunting a state thatthey've never hunted before a
(14:14):
species that they might not haveever.
Species that yeah that they'venever had the opportunity.
It can be.
It can be very intimidating, itcan.
It keeps a lot ofcies that,yeah, that they've never had the
opportunity.
It can be very intimidating, itkeeps a lot of guys from doing
it.
Well, I've never hunted overthere.
You know they hunt the westside of the Cascades.
I've never hunted east side ofthe Cascades, you know, and I
don't know where to go, so Ijust don't go.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Well, that was never Dwight's mindset about it I've
never hunted it.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Wow, what an adventure.
Let's go see if we can do it.
Yeah, okay, and so youmentioned recurve uh-huh and
then combat what actually?
Let's go back real quick.
So, weapon steve isdall steveisdall.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
He's kind of tosses back and forth between.
Sometimes he's killing themwith compound bows, sometimes
he's killing them with a rifleokay you know cameron haynes,
he's bow cameron haynes is bow,he's archery.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yep, scott haugen kind of back and forth bow rifle
, whatever's convenient okay,because I think that's important
to to get some information ifyou're rifle hunting because,
like you talk more about withthe Blacktail, coach system is
generally a little later in theseason right.
(15:26):
And it doesn't necessarily haveto be, but it you talk about,
you don't necessarily talk aboutcalling and rattling.
Right.
Right, and you do, but not youdon't really cover it in depth
because it's not really part ofthis system.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
well, whereas these other guys it might be more of a
basis of what they're doingright, right and and and so, and
I don't want to take away fromany of that.
You know I've always said fromfrom the beginning that my way
is simply that it's just the wayI do it.
It's not the way.
There are a bunch of other waysto do.
You do this to get big blacktail bucks and some of these
(16:01):
guys I know cameron rattles, Iknow what shelby rattles, I know
steve isdahl rattles and andwhatnot.
That's simply to say that thisis not my forte.
Yeah, you know what I mean andI'm not taking away from it in
any any way, shape or form,because guys can do that are
just awesome.
I've rattled in a few bucks,but I'm no expert, so I don't
(16:21):
want to talk like I am, yeah Idon't want to appear to be
something that I'm not.
That's somebody else's forte,and and I'm hoping they'll step
up to the plate and teach asmany people as they can but.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
But it's also why learn from everybody exactly,
exactly it's the, because wetalk a lot about ego, but there
can also be ego in teaching.
Right and you have to do it myway.
My way is the only way.
No it's.
Yeah.
When you get a lot of teachers,like you said, four or five
different sources and whateverthey come together and talk
(16:53):
about, but there also might bethat outlier that they do.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
That is important where it's calling rattling
things along those lines theirway of doing it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
So next one, Boyd Iverson.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So Boyd Iverson, you know I probably don't talk about
him enough and it's funnybecause in his day and I say in
his day like he's just, you know, long gone or anything and he's
not you know, but there was atime when I was first starting
to get into the blacktail thing,he was the top name.
Okay, you know, and I mean youknow, I have his book.
(17:25):
I don't know that it's in printanymore, but on the back cover
I mean it's just a picture ofhim standing in the middle of
all of these just giantblacktail, and read his book,
loved it.
It's what got me going.
What I loved is the intensitythat he conveys through the book
on how important it is.
(17:46):
I mean the guy doesn't, evenwhen he's walking in the woods
he does not let any branchesbrush up against him.
He does, you know, he just youdon't touch anything so he's
more of a spot and stock guyhe's well, he gets in there and
he sits you know, and what'sfunny is we're talking about
something that they all agree on.
I don't think any of these guyshunt clear cuts okay every one
(18:08):
of these guys and and what'sfunny is because everybody's
been raised to do that but allthese guys, that boy gets in
there and he sits.
He sits in the thick stuff andhe waits for that big buck to
make a mistake.
You know what all of them do,all of them do.
You know, and that's prettymuch what stopped me from
hunting clear cuts.
But Boyd Iverson just theintensity, the dogmatic routine
(18:31):
that this is how I have to do itto make it happen, because that
big buck is so smart and I meanhe conveys that in his book so
well about how you have to becommitted to this to be
successful, not just once, butyear after year after year.
And I mean to see the bucksthat this guy has killed in his
(18:51):
career is just, it's inspiring,it's awesome, they're just huge.
But he is so, so intense aboutevery move that he makes.
Everything is intentional.
There's nothing done.
That hasn't been thought through.
You know okay, and there's nowasted gear.
You know stuff that we take inthat we think I might need this
(19:12):
in mind.
He's not doing that.
Everything that he has has beenwell thought out.
He knows why he's taking it andit's there for a reason and if
it doesn't have a reason, he'snot taking it.
It's just extra stuff to spreadmore scent or extra stuff to
add more weight to make himsweat more.
You know it's like he doesn'tdo that.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
He's like no Fumble around through your bag and have
yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Right, right, he is intense and I love that about
him.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
You know, it's like no, that's where you have to be?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
what part of the blacktail area is he hunting?
Just like we?
It's all pacific, northwest,it's all you know.
He's more into the thick jackfor getting in, john, for I'd
say more thick stuff getting inthere, finding little openings
but here in washington, or hejust you know, I states, I don't
know for certain, I don't knowfor certain, I don't know for
certain on that.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Aaron, three states, and well, four states and a
different country.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Up in Canada.
I couldn't tell you for sure onthat.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I mean, I suppose at a certain point a lot of these
guys have hunted Californiablacktail and Oregon blacktail.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah, they've done all three.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
And Washington and Sitka black tail and you know
everything in canada.
Just because it again talkingabout, you know your trophy is
your trophy, you know to getthat maybe a grand slam of black
tail, yeah, from all the statesthat they're in yeah you know
that could be.
That would be an interestingtrophy to to go.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yep, they need to come up with that, if they
haven't already.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Oh yeah, Maybe we'll come up with that.
There you go, the Grand Slam ofBlacktail.
Okay, next one, smokey Cruz.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
So Smokey Cruz.
There's a whole chapterdedicated to him in Cameron
Haynes' book and Smokey is agood friend of mine and I've
learned so much from him.
He's not published outside ofbeing in that book.
He's not, he hasn't been on anyshows or anything like that,
but what an incredible man, youknow.
(21:13):
He and his wife are both justand his son.
Yeah, they're just incrediblepeople.
His son's also in the book,okay.
He's in his book and everythingSmoke.
He's in the record bookscountless times for everything
Elk, bear, deer, goat, moose,caribou, I mean.
The guy is just this phenomenalhunter and I've been blessed
(21:33):
with the opportunity to spendtime with him, to be a good
friend to him and Annette, and Ijust love him to death as a
good friend to him and Annette,and I just love him to death.
And the thing that I've learnedfrom Smoke is there's several
things, but the two things thatstand out to me number one were
Smoke always.
He always had, you know,hunting magazines laying around
and everything and I justthought, you know, like
(21:57):
everybody else, I would getthose and I would read those for
entertainment, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I'm reading it just for the articles.
Yeah, for the stories, and theyare.
They are very entertaining andthey're exciting and they add to
the adventure and everything.
But something that Smokeytaught me early on is that
there's not a magazine that hehas that he hasn't read cover to
cover.
And you know this about me,aaron, that when I I get a
magazine, that's exactly what Ido now, because smoky taught me
(22:21):
that, regardless of the species,regardless of the location,
regardless of whatever it isthat's going on, and that
there's always something thatyou can glean from that hunt.
There's always something thatyou can pick up, whether it's a
mental aspect or a huntingtechnique or a little trick here
and there, whatever that theydo, there's always something
(22:44):
that you can walk away, that isa positive to your hunting
career, that you can pull fromevery one of those.
And when I started readingarticles not solely for
entertainment, but with the ideathat there's something I could
pull out of that, I went fromwhat I would call a sub average
hunter to somebody who started,you know, killing big record
(23:06):
book bucks.
I started killing more bulls, Istarted killing more bears.
Yeah, it just became.
Things started making moresense and it opened up a whole
new world to me in that aspect.
But yeah, so that was one ofthe things that I took away from
being with him and everything.
And then the other thing thatI've watched Smokey.
(23:28):
Over the years I've had theprivilege and the pleasure to
hunt with him and to go out inthe woods and be with him and
see how he does things, andthere's just so much that's
going on and as a young kid it'sreally hard to do this.
But I look at my boy and Ithink he's got so much more
patience than I did.
(23:49):
Smokey has made me slow down andreally let things develop
instead of trying to makesomething happen, which I think
with spot and stalking, a lot ofguys do that and I think that
one of the bad habits that youget, that you can develop
through spot and stalk, is thatyou always have that curiosity
(24:10):
of what's on the other over thehill yeah, what's over around
the bend and whatnot, and youpush yourself and you go, go, go
and some styles of huntingthat's, that's good.
But sometimes that can be a con,in the sense that you're trying
to force something instead ofletting something develop and
maybe by pushing it you blew achance at something that you
(24:32):
could and and so smoky justreally told me to.
You know, taught me how to slowdown and and really kind of
measure my movements, measure mydecisions, measure my whole
hunt plan.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I guess I'm trying to say, well, the concept of a
hunt plan and, yeah, what to do,when I know that's where you
got the idea learned theconcepts of baiting we can't
bait anymore but the benefits ofit, because I remember you were
telling me a story of goingwhitetail hunting with him and
(25:06):
new concept to you yeah, neverthought of baiting yeah, never
done that and and the pros andcons to it you know.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And and to clarify guys, so baiting doesn't make
big bucks daylight.
No, contrary to what everybodywants to say.
And if anybody's ever bearhunted or whatnot, the food is
out there at night.
They don't have to come in thedaytime and they know that, you
know.
But there's, there's, there'sbenefits to having a healthy
deer herd and and doing all ofthat and selective harvest and
(25:36):
everything like that, and so,but doing that, being able to
watch species that I'm hunting,whether it's bear, elk, deer,
whatever it is, watching theirhabits and how they interact,
and when you learn your prey,it's much easier to find your
prey if that makes any sense,yeah yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
So, and I've had the chance to meet Smokey and
Annette, his wife several times,and his son, and yeah, what you
say, just the nicest people andhonestly, I had no idea,
because I had met him probablyfour or five times before I
realized that he is asaccomplished of a hunter as he
(26:17):
is, because it's not like he'snot leading with his stories.
No no, he's just one of those.
He just talks to you and samewith annette and she's got some
incredible stories oh yeah,they're both.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
All three of them are in the record books countless
times and they're just thenicest, sweetest people you
could ever meet, and yeah yeah,it's.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
it's like meeting somebody and all of a sudden you
find out like this incredibleskill they have.
Wait, what yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
And that's another thing.
I think that a lot of peopledon't recognize what is really
sitting in front of them.
And.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I say that in the sense that you know.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
So we would shoot archery.
We belonged to the same archeryclub and we would shoot league
and stuff.
And smokey would come in thereand guys would ask questions and
they never.
You know, like you said, theynever knew where he was.
You know, as far as in thehunting world and it's like if
they knew boy, they would bejust sitting there just taking
(27:18):
it all in everything.
Anything that he says you just,I mean, if he tells you it's
gonna rain, start carrying,start carrying an umbrella.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, you know, if it has to do with hunting.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I mean, the guy is just that good and it's just
stuff like that.
Guys like that are justuntapped.
You know, Smoke, he's the kindof guy that wants to teach.
He enjoys teaching.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
But everybody today is in such a hurry, or they look
at him because of his age andthey think, well, you know, just
an old timer doesn't know, andit's like, no, you don't
understand who you're talking to.
You know, and I've literallyseen that happen, because I've
seen a couple of times youngerguys trying to not necessarily
one-up him, but they come inwith their stories Right and
they lead with their stories notrealizing, and he's not the
type of guy and they lead withtheir stories not realizing, and
he's not the type of guy.
(28:06):
He will congratulate them and Ithink that's a lot where you've
learned.
That is just good for you.
I'm glad you got that buck, I'mglad you got that buck, because
that's the type of guy he is.
But it's when I realized who hewas and seeing these
conversations later on, I'mlaughing in my head.
It's like, yeah, he's beenthere, done that, but he's a lot
(28:29):
of humility and just good foryou Both of them, both of them.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And what's funny is, I think what took it to the next
level with me, with Smokey, iswhen I finally realized how big
a name he really is.
We were at a sportsman show andhe's good friends with
Glenberry.
Glenberry comes and stays athis house when he comes over and
he does the Portland SportsmanShow and Glenberry's a big name
(28:55):
in elk hunting and I thought,well, they're friends, that's
cool and everything.
Well, we're at the sportsman,we're walking around and here's
Jim Horn and I'm thinking that'sjim horn.
He's.
He's on the truth primos, thetruth big bulls, you know, and
I've seen him on those videos,those dvds, countless times and
he's got a whole series ofbackpacks that with the
(29:16):
signature jim horn series, youknow, and I'm like that's jim
horn.
Jim walks up, he's a Smokey andhe just shakes hands and they
start hugging and they juststart shooting the breeze, yeah,
yeah and.
I'm like wow, he really isconnected, he really is
well-known.
He was known as Mr Rooseveltfor decades in the record books
(29:37):
because he had killed so manyrecord book Roosevelts and
people don't recognize that.
They don't know that a bookRoosevelt's and people don't
recognize that they don't knowthat.
And it's like what anincredible resource If, if
someone was just to take thetime and sit down with him.
Smokey is a storyteller and,like I said, he wants to teach.
We actually need to get Smokeyon the podcast and just go to
(29:58):
his place and sit down and wewould have to make that podcast
about three hours long.
Cause he's going's gonna rabbittrail down every you know, but
it's gonna be enjoyable.
You're gonna.
You're gonna walk away going.
Wow, that was some time wellspent.
I'm really glad that I sat downwith him, you know we got it.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Okay, we got to get that one on the book.
So because, like you said, he's, he's got a chapter in cameron
haynes' book but he's not awriter himself or anything.
So there's not a lot ofinformation, it's personal
information that you've gleanedfrom him.
But still, if you see or hearthat name, your ear should perk
(30:36):
up.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Absolutely, he's kind of the legend.
That's just kind of.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Under the radar legend Exactly, exactly.
Okay, that's just kind of Underthe radar legend Exactly,
exactly.
Okay, so we could probably talkabout Smokey for a while, but
we're going to move along toBoyd Shelby Jr.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
So that's who.
I actually met him throughSmokey and he's got a DVD.
He used to be at the Swartzmanshows.
He's up north when I say upnorth I'm talking up Seattle
north area, up that way andbasically was guiding for black
tail.
He had two dvds and both dvdswere very, very informative.
They weren't like productionquality kind of stuff, but very
(31:14):
well done in the sense that theway it was all laid out and and
that you were looking at histechnique and you were.
Again, if you're not watchingit for entertainment purposes
solely, but you're watching itto learn stuff, you're going to
walk away from there going.
Okay, boyd uses sense a lot andthat's where I kind of started
my journey down that, that thattrail there, and kind of took
(31:38):
what he was doing and added myown little twist and then learn
some things along the way.
But boy, very successful.
I don't know if he's doing itanymore.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Very nice guy and really good blacktail hunter
really good okay, and I thinkthis is probably true a lot with
blacktail, as we've heard fromguys.
It's like there's just noinformation out there and as
soon as you guys put out thepodcast, like, guys were super
excited because here's somefairly consistent black tail
information.
So it's self.
(32:10):
You know, thinking about hisvideos self-produced.
Well, it's hard when you knowyou don't have editing skills
and all of that to produce likereally high quality TV show Buck
Ventures.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Right, and you're competing against all this other
whitetail hunters, which allthe lower 50 have whitetail, but
there's just the three on theWest Coast that have blacktail,
and it's just a third of thosestates.
So it's like, well, where areyou going to go?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, but we can take what we can get.
There, you go Exactly Okayno-transcript.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Put some hats hats yeah but uh boy, he makes like I
was saying, he and steve isdalldo that same high cascade.
Nathan is in great shape.
Yeah, you know.
He mentioned in his seminarthat that on average, on a good
day, he'll put 19 miles on hisfeet, you know I think it was
like 12 or 13 average 19 is along day.
(33:40):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, and I'mit's just a lot of walking.
That's a lot of walk and it'snot flat walking either no.
And so Nathan's in great shapeand what he does he is
exceptionally good at and makesit look really, really fun.
I wish I could do that.
I'm going to try.
As many you know, I have Lyme'sdisease and and it limits me on
(34:00):
what I can and can't do.
But boy, just sitting there andlistening to his hunts and
everything like that, it's justfun.
It's just fun.
The guy an incrediblevideographer, photographer, just
you know, he is probably thewhole package as far as what you
want, as far as being able notonly to live the hunt but to
(34:24):
remember the hunt and to be ableto come back and stir those
memories with footage.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Well, I remember sitting in his seminar and what
he's looking for.
Even though he's doing the highcascade stuff, he's still
looking for a lot of the sametype of habitat attributes that
you are.
Yeah, and it's interesting.
It's true for blacktail.
You know, certain things arejust true for blacktail weather
and you mentioned, I think withScott Haugen, same thing Valley
(34:51):
bucks, coastal bucks.
There are certain attributesthat are true for all of them,
right?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
And it's funny because everybody wants to make
their deer the exception.
Yeah, and the reality is, isit's?
They're really not, you know.
And when you stop thinking likethat and start thinking like
it's just an ungulate, you knowit's doing things out of
survival, it's not emotion, youknow, and it makes it a little
bit easier to understand themand whatnot.
(35:17):
But again, like Steve Isdall,Nathan spends a lot of time up
there.
He knows his deer, herd youknow he knows his deer herd.
You know he knows the migrationpatterns.
He knows the pockets where theywant to hang.
He's found their bedrooms, youknow.
And when he goes and he doeshis hikes and whatnot, he's got
a plan.
You know, he's got a route thathe wants to take.
(35:38):
It may not be the same exacttrail, but it's going to be the
same route that he takes toaccomplish what he's desiring to
accomplish.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
And he has a lot of stuff on YouTube, tons of stuff
and I would say that's mostlywhere his content is.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Yeah, I'd say both he and Steve Isdall yeah, okay,
youtube.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yep, yep, they're both on there a lot, and that's
you know, I started typing insome of these names into YouTube
and you get pulled up video andyou might even be able to find
clips of old DVDs that guys havejust uploaded to YouTube.
Now, whether or not you canactually do that legally, you
know, that might be a differentstory and stuff.
But one of the things Iremember from going to Nathan's
(36:17):
seminar down in Albany is notonly oh, okay, so he's looking
for some of the same habitatattributes that we are but he
was talking about huntingdifferent states, and so he
shared some stories about Sitkabut also going into California,
which perked the interest of youand DJ and Zach about going.
(36:40):
So now you're going down toCaliforniaifornia because it's
actually for an out-of-statehunt.
it's one of the more affordablehunts to do and they have a
really long blacktail seasonyeah yeah, so very interesting
that you know, because you wouldthink california would be
completely anti-hunter justbecause of the politics and you
(37:03):
know a lot of stuff like thatgoes hand in hand.
But yeah, it seemed to bepretty open to you know, having
out-of-state hunters.
So if you're looking for, butand I think a lot of them down
there big racks, small bodiesand I think your brother's kind
of mentioned that, even thoughhe's Southern Oregon, yeah, he's
just right across the border,but right across the border, but
(37:25):
yeah, big bot, big, big rack,small body.
So they were saying you knowhuge rack, but it was a 90 pound
, 90 pound deer, but last one onour list.
Start looking up all these guysyou know, start gleaning
information.
We hope we gave you a good list, you know.
I know there's a lot of namesthat you might be.
(37:45):
Well, what about this guy?
And so these are just the namesoff the top of that your head
that you came up with.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Oh, there's more than just these guys too.
Yeah there's.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
There's other guys out there and we didn't mention
guys like randy newberg or fredeichler, who have all probably
hunted blacktail at some point,but not aren't necessarily
blacktail guys so right, and Ithink that's what we were trying
to stick with here.
So blacktail guys.
So anyway, thanks for joiningus and we'll talk to you next
week.
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron and I'm Dave, so wegot a message on a comment from
Spotify and if you ever want toleave comments, love getting
comments because it's helpful,because sometimes we get an idea
to do a podcast episode out ofit, like this week.
For some reason, though Apple,I can't see any comments.
(00:23):
So if anybody's left anycomments that I haven't
responded to on Apple, yeah, forsome reason their system's kind
of wonky.
So thank you for leavingreviews, but if you leave
comments, yeah, I just can't seethem.
But anyway, spotify, it's realeasy for me to get in there
through kind of the back end andsee comments and be able to
(00:46):
reply.
But somebody commented aboutwhy no mention of boyd iverson
and I realized that you talkabout a lot of these guys that
are big names in blacktail rightoff air off air yeah, and it
just it's not intentional, itjust that's the way it happens
sometimes but I was like, hey,thanks for bringing that to our
attention.
We've never really talked aboutnames and for guys who you know,
(01:09):
even if you're well-establishedin hunting and you've been
hunting for years, you might notrecognize some of these names
or you're new to hunting and youwant more resources because you
just really want to learn andyou know it's always good to get
information from a bunch ofdifferent resources.
So if you've taken the classand really all you know is
Dave's system, it helps and I'vefound this because I've read
(01:33):
some of these guys, some oftheir articles and stuff it
helps with understanding yourconcepts even more.
Right, right, yeah, and goingback, because this is where you
got a lot of these your system,just puzzle pieces that were all
put together that other guyshad figured out before me.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I'm not a smart guy, you know.
I've just taken what they'vefigured out and put it together,
that's all.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
But when it's a passion, yeah, it makes you,
even if you're not a smart guy.
It's just you're so focused onwanting to know this particular
topic that, yeah, you spend timein figuring it out.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
And that's the thing, when we're going to go through
these names that I gave you andeverything.
And you're going to see or atleast I began to see that when
like three or four of these guysstart saying the same thing,
you know you really got to startlistening.
You know there's something toit.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, you know, that's interesting because I
think we've talked about wetalked about that in a previous
episode that like if when I wasbuying the equipment for
recording the podcast, it's Ipull up articles best you know
mixer or best mics in thisbudget, or whatever, I read like
four articles and whatever theyagree on is what I go with, and
(02:49):
so, but it's kind of that sameidea is you read all these
articles whatever they agree onyou, kind of that's what you go
with.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Right.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, same concept right there.
So we're going to go throughthese names You'll talk about,
you know, do they have a bookout, whether or not you can find
the book anymore, because someof these guys the books are out
of print, and then just kind ofwhat, maybe what their specialty
is, because some of these guyshave different ways that they
hunt, but what you've gleanedoff of them, sure, you know.
(03:16):
Just kind of go through that.
So first one, steve Isdahl.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Probably, I would say right now is one of the top
three most popular blacktailhunters out there what what a
guy.
You know he.
He's like another name on thislist, nathan endicott.
He does a lot of steve, does alot of high cascade okay
blacktail hunting.
He's out of vancouver, britishcolumbia.
Up there up in canada he was aguide, or is a guide, for
several species stone sheep anddeer and whatnot.
(03:49):
And reading his book andwatching his stuff on YouTube,
this guy, I'm telling you, ifyou're going to walk away with
anything from this guy, thething that you need to pick up
mostly is just how much time heis focused on black tail.
Okay, his passion comes through.
And I think you know because Itell guys you know when they
(04:13):
take my seminar, when I findthat bedroom door, when I find
the bedroom where they'rebedding that core area, and then
I find the bedroom door, Idon't necessarily have to go
back till two weeks beforeseason.
Yeah Right, this style ofhunting that he is doing is much
like, again, nathan Endicott's.
These guys put a lot of hoursin learning their deer herd and
(04:36):
I mean it's not simply a hobby,it is a passion.
And for the kind of bucks thatthese guys harvest and if you
see Steve Vistal, he justharvests monsters I mean
absolute giants.
But he knows that deer herd.
He has learned that deer herdover a series of years and put
(04:57):
in a lot of time and miles onhis feet to figure it out, miles
on his feet to figure it out,you know, because he where these
deer migrate because of thesnow and everything that that
they're going okay, yeah, that'sright the location, and so they
they figured out exactly wherethese deer want to be and how
they're going to move and allthis stuff and it's a 365 day a
(05:19):
year quest for them and I I loveit, you know, watching it.
Steve has a book out.
It's just out last year and, nooffense, steve, I think you're
a great hunter.
You're fantastic.
I learned a lot from you.
I think you need to get aneditor, though, you know,
because some of this stuff islike there's some spots in there
(05:40):
where you'll read the sameparagraph three different times,
you know, in a row, justbecause it's an editor thing.
But if you're reading it forstories Steve has a lot of
stories but look beyond hisstories, look deeper into his
stories and recognize what he'sdoing and see his train of
thought with every step that hemakes, and if you do that,
you're going to glean a lot offthis guy, because he is smart,
(06:03):
you know, and it's just you gotto look into deeper into the
story than just forentertainment, I guess, is what
I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, okay, next one, cameron Haynes.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Cameron Haynes I, what can you say?
I mean as far as PacificNorthwest Blacktail, you know
he's the that I learned.
You know the edges and wheretwo habitats come together.
Okay, he was a hundred percentright on that.
A hundred percent right.
That is black tail country,that is black tail travel
(06:35):
corridors, that is, that isblack tail period.
And you know he grew up down inLane County, the Mecca.
He's got a DVD out onblack-tailed trophy hunting and
a book on trophy black-tailedtactics which I think is out of
print right now, or I thinksomebody was saying they could
pick up a copy for like $300 orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, when it goes out of print and people start
getting desperate, you can findit on a used copy on like amazon
yeah or ebay.
But yeah, you pay for it right?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
yeah, and it's a.
It's a really good book.
It's, of course, that'scameron's forte, you know
writing writing and editing andall that and and it's really
well put together.
It's not just cameron.
He's got a whole sectiondedicated to other hunters that
are black tail hunters that arefamous.
One of them is a good friend ofmine.
He's in that book, smokey Cruz.
(07:30):
Want to fuel this black tailaddiction.
I'm just getting into this andand just you know, at the
beginning stages that book willwill kind of seal the deal for
(07:51):
you as far as okay, I'm in ormaybe, or even watching DVDs, or
yeah, I think the DVD is alittle bit easier to obtain than
the book.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So, and he seems to be don't celebrity status for
hunter, because I know he was onjoe rogan, yeah as well, and so
cam's big into the fitness.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I mean he runs his marathons, he does a lot of
lifting and stuff.
He's getting up there in age,like the rest of us and and so
he's.
You know his he.
You know he's known for hisbackcountry hunts, okay.
And so a lot of guys are intothat, a lot of younger guys are
into that, and even us olderguys are still trying to stay in
shape and get another hunt outof our, a couple more hunts out
(08:34):
of our body before it finallydecides to quit.
No, they look to him and he'searned it.
It's very well-deserved.
He's very accomplished and avery popular hunter at the time.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
So the next name on the list, Scott Haugen.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Probably.
I'd say he and Boyd Iverson areprobably the godfathers of the
blacktail hunting community.
Okay, scott has a book and Ihave that book and I read it
Great book.
I love how he breaks blacktaildown into four or five different
categories, from Cascade Bucksto Coastal Bucks to Valley Bucks
(09:11):
to Foothill Bucks, and hereally does a great job of
breaking it down and helping youunderstand the little nuances
between them and at the sametime still keeping in focus that
they are blacktail, that a lotof the stuff they do is the same
and that, even though you know,weather conditions might change
(09:32):
their right behavior a littlebit right there's.
They're still very elusive andand yet still attainable if you
focus on it.
You know he breaks it down andmore of a I won't say
statistical, but he makes it forme, for a guy that has more of
a process type brain.
I like how Scott breaks it down, like that, you know where it's
.
Like this, this, this, this.
(09:53):
You know this, plus this, plusthis.
I can relate to that better.
Okay, and I think it's a reallygood book in that sense,
Probably the best that I've readas far as for black tail on the
market.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And we've referenced, like talking about the wind and
things like that.
I know a lot of the informationthat I brought in previous
episodes has been because ofarticles I've read of Scott
Haugen's.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Right, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
So next one, Larry D Jones.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Larry D Jones.
So if Scott Haugen is thegodfather, larry D Jones is his
grandpa.
Basically, talk about a guythat's just inspirational, not
only because of his age, but Imean just if you've ever watched
any of his videos, you've everread any of his articles, it
just he makes it fun, he takesit and he makes it fun.
(10:43):
And I mean the guy is, isreally, he's sharp, he really is
.
I mean he's come up with hisown calls and stuff over the
years and and still makingvideos.
You know, and he's got onethat's on cameron haynes's dvd.
There's a clip of a hunt or ahunt of larry d jones in oregon
(11:03):
where I, the guy is justphenomenal.
He's still killing big bucks.
It doesn't matter how.
I mean the guy knows how to doit, he's got the patience, he's
got the wherewithal and just thefortuitousness to say I'm going
to do this and I'm going tohave fun doing it.
It doesn't get discouraging forhim.
(11:23):
He misses a big buck on thatclip one day, two days later he
kills one that's even bigger.
It's just like.
But the guy is justinspirational to be doing it at
his age and still having thesame amount of fun, if not more,
throughout the entirety of hiscareer is just really admirable,
in my opinion.
(11:44):
A lot of guys get bored of it.
A lot of guys get frustratedwhen things don't go their way.
I mean, we've done, we've donethe episode.
You know, when things go south,larry d jones just kind of
smiles and laughs through it allyeah you know, and then at the
end of the season he fills histag.
Yep, you know, and it's like,well, that's awesome.
A lot of us go home and cry inour coffee and throw our bows or
(12:05):
our weapons down in the corner.
And I've had it.
This is stupid, Does?
Speaker 1 (12:08):
he have a book.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So you know, I don't know if he does.
To be honest with you, I'vejust seen him in a lot of books.
Like a lot of other people'sstuff, their books.
He's been around so long.
He's kind of been everywhereyou know.
Yeah, he's in magazines all thetime and whatnot, and he's had
videos for decades.
So he's just kind of been thecornerstone that everything kind
(12:31):
of got built off of.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Okay, next one, dwight Shrew.
I almost said Dwight ShrewLittle office.
Yeah, dwight Shrew, we almostsaid Dwight Schrute, little
office.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, dwight Shue, we can talk about bears right now,
black bears.
Dwight Shue just passed here,boy, has it been four years ago,
five years ago?
Okay.
Something like that, and Ireferenced him in some of my
seminars about how he came outand won the Big Buck Challenge
for the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I think we've also mentioned him in previous
episodes a couple times, becausehe's the one who kind of got
everybody thinking about, forblack-tailed tree stand hunting
Right right.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
That was his secret to success and winning that
contest.
But I mean, if you watch a lotof the early Larry D Jones
videos on DVD and whatnot,you'll notice that those two
hunted together.
They were hunting partners fora long time and very
knowledgeable both of them.
So Larry D Jones was a recurvelongbow shooter and Dwight Shue
was a compound shooter.
(13:33):
And just inspiring how hebreaks everything down, going
into an out-of-state hunt, goinginto a new territory, going
into an area that he's neverhunted before and watching him
systematically break it down towhere he's like okay, this is
what I need to figure out first,and when I figure out that,
(13:54):
then I need to figure out this,and that should lead me to this,
to this, to this and ultimatelyto being a successful hunt,
whether he fills his tag or not,just being in the game you know
, so to speak, which for a lotof guys going into a new area,
going and hunting a state thatthey've never hunted before a
(14:14):
species that they might not haveever.
Species that yeah that they'venever had the opportunity.
It can be.
It can be very intimidating, itcan.
It keeps a lot ofcies that,yeah, that they've never had the
opportunity.
It can be very intimidating, itkeeps a lot of guys from doing
it.
Well, I've never hunted overthere.
You know they hunt the westside of the Cascades.
I've never hunted east side ofthe Cascades, you know, and I
don't know where to go, so Ijust don't go.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Well, that was never Dwight's mindset about it I've
never hunted it.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Wow, what an adventure.
Let's go see if we can do it.
Yeah, okay, and so youmentioned recurve uh-huh and
then combat what actually?
Let's go back real quick.
So, weapon steve isdall steveisdall.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
He's kind of tosses back and forth between.
Sometimes he's killing themwith compound bows, sometimes
he's killing them with a rifleokay you know cameron haynes,
he's bow cameron haynes is bow,he's archery.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yep, scott haugen kind of back and forth bow rifle
, whatever's convenient okay,because I think that's important
to to get some information ifyou're rifle hunting because,
like you talk more about withthe Blacktail, coach system is
generally a little later in theseason right.
(15:26):
And it doesn't necessarily haveto be, but it you talk about,
you don't necessarily talk aboutcalling and rattling.
Right.
Right, and you do, but not youdon't really cover it in depth
because it's not really part ofthis system.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
well, whereas these other guys it might be more of a
basis of what they're doingright, right and and and so, and
I don't want to take away fromany of that.
You know I've always said fromfrom the beginning that my way
is simply that it's just the wayI do it.
It's not the way.
There are a bunch of other waysto do.
You do this to get big blacktail bucks and some of these
(16:01):
guys I know cameron rattles, Iknow what shelby rattles, I know
steve isdahl rattles and andwhatnot.
That's simply to say that thisis not my forte.
Yeah, you know what I mean andI'm not taking away from it in
any any way, shape or form,because guys can do that are
just awesome.
I've rattled in a few bucks,but I'm no expert, so I don't
(16:21):
want to talk like I am, yeah Idon't want to appear to be
something that I'm not.
That's somebody else's forte,and and I'm hoping they'll step
up to the plate and teach asmany people as they can but.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
But it's also why learn from everybody exactly,
exactly it's the, because wetalk a lot about ego, but there
can also be ego in teaching.
Right and you have to do it myway.
My way is the only way.
No it's.
Yeah.
When you get a lot of teachers,like you said, four or five
different sources and whateverthey come together and talk
(16:53):
about, but there also might bethat outlier that they do.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
That is important where it's calling rattling
things along those lines theirway of doing it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
So next one, Boyd Iverson.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So Boyd Iverson, you know I probably don't talk about
him enough and it's funnybecause in his day and I say in
his day like he's just, you know, long gone or anything and he's
not you know, but there was atime when I was first starting
to get into the blacktail thing,he was the top name.
Okay, you know, and I mean youknow, I have his book.
(17:25):
I don't know that it's in printanymore, but on the back cover
I mean it's just a picture ofhim standing in the middle of
all of these just giantblacktail, and read his book,
loved it.
It's what got me going.
What I loved is the intensitythat he conveys through the book
on how important it is.
(17:46):
I mean the guy doesn't, evenwhen he's walking in the woods
he does not let any branchesbrush up against him.
He does, you know, he just youdon't touch anything so he's
more of a spot and stock guyhe's well, he gets in there and
he sits you know, and what'sfunny is we're talking about
something that they all agree on.
I don't think any of these guyshunt clear cuts okay every one
(18:08):
of these guys and and what'sfunny is because everybody's
been raised to do that but allthese guys, that boy gets in
there and he sits.
He sits in the thick stuff andhe waits for that big buck to
make a mistake.
You know what all of them do,all of them do.
You know, and that's prettymuch what stopped me from
hunting clear cuts.
But Boyd Iverson just theintensity, the dogmatic routine
(18:31):
that this is how I have to do itto make it happen, because that
big buck is so smart and I meanhe conveys that in his book so
well about how you have to becommitted to this to be
successful, not just once, butyear after year after year.
And I mean to see the bucksthat this guy has killed in his
(18:51):
career is just, it's inspiring,it's awesome, they're just huge.
But he is so, so intense aboutevery move that he makes.
Everything is intentional.
There's nothing done.
That hasn't been thought through.
You know okay, and there's nowasted gear.
You know stuff that we take inthat we think I might need this
(19:12):
in mind.
He's not doing that.
Everything that he has has beenwell thought out.
He knows why he's taking it andit's there for a reason and if
it doesn't have a reason, he'snot taking it.
It's just extra stuff to spreadmore scent or extra stuff to
add more weight to make himsweat more.
You know it's like he doesn'tdo that.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
He's like no Fumble around through your bag and have
yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Right, right, he is intense and I love that about
him.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
You know, it's like no, that's where you have to be?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
what part of the blacktail area is he hunting?
Just like we?
It's all pacific, northwest,it's all you know.
He's more into the thick jackfor getting in, john, for I'd
say more thick stuff getting inthere, finding little openings
but here in washington, or hejust you know, I states, I don't
know for certain, I don't knowfor certain, I don't know for
certain on that.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Aaron, three states, and well, four states and a
different country.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Up in Canada.
I couldn't tell you for sure onthat.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I mean, I suppose at a certain point a lot of these
guys have hunted Californiablacktail and Oregon blacktail.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah, they've done all three.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
And Washington and Sitka black tail and you know
everything in canada.
Just because it again talkingabout, you know your trophy is
your trophy, you know to getthat maybe a grand slam of black
tail, yeah, from all the statesthat they're in yeah you know
that could be.
That would be an interestingtrophy to to go.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yep, they need to come up with that, if they
haven't already.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Oh yeah, Maybe we'll come up with that.
There you go, the Grand Slam ofBlacktail.
Okay, next one, smokey Cruz.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
So Smokey Cruz.
There's a whole chapterdedicated to him in Cameron
Haynes' book and Smokey is agood friend of mine and I've
learned so much from him.
He's not published outside ofbeing in that book.
He's not, he hasn't been on anyshows or anything like that,
but what an incredible man, youknow.
(21:13):
He and his wife are both justand his son.
Yeah, they're just incrediblepeople.
His son's also in the book,okay.
He's in his book and everythingSmoke.
He's in the record bookscountless times for everything
Elk, bear, deer, goat, moose,caribou, I mean.
The guy is just this phenomenalhunter and I've been blessed
(21:33):
with the opportunity to spendtime with him, to be a good
friend to him and Annette, and Ijust love him to death as a
good friend to him and Annette,and I just love him to death.
And the thing that I've learnedfrom Smoke is there's several
things, but the two things thatstand out to me number one were
Smoke always.
He always had, you know,hunting magazines laying around
and everything and I justthought, you know, like
(21:57):
everybody else, I would getthose and I would read those for
entertainment, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I'm reading it just for the articles.
Yeah, for the stories, and theyare.
They are very entertaining andthey're exciting and they add to
the adventure and everything.
But something that Smokeytaught me early on is that
there's not a magazine that hehas that he hasn't read cover to
cover.
And you know this about me,aaron, that when I I get a
magazine, that's exactly what Ido now, because smoky taught me
(22:21):
that, regardless of the species,regardless of the location,
regardless of whatever it isthat's going on, and that
there's always something thatyou can glean from that hunt.
There's always something thatyou can pick up, whether it's a
mental aspect or a huntingtechnique or a little trick here
and there, whatever that theydo, there's always something
(22:44):
that you can walk away, that isa positive to your hunting
career, that you can pull fromevery one of those.
And when I started readingarticles not solely for
entertainment, but with the ideathat there's something I could
pull out of that, I went fromwhat I would call a sub average
hunter to somebody who started,you know, killing big record
(23:06):
book bucks.
I started killing more bulls, Istarted killing more bears.
Yeah, it just became.
Things started making moresense and it opened up a whole
new world to me in that aspect.
But yeah, so that was one ofthe things that I took away from
being with him and everything.
And then the other thing thatI've watched Smokey.
(23:28):
Over the years I've had theprivilege and the pleasure to
hunt with him and to go out inthe woods and be with him and
see how he does things, andthere's just so much that's
going on and as a young kid it'sreally hard to do this.
But I look at my boy and Ithink he's got so much more
patience than I did.
(23:49):
Smokey has made me slow down andreally let things develop
instead of trying to makesomething happen, which I think
with spot and stalking, a lot ofguys do that and I think that
one of the bad habits that youget, that you can develop
through spot and stalk, is thatyou always have that curiosity
(24:10):
of what's on the other over thehill yeah, what's over around
the bend and whatnot, and youpush yourself and you go, go, go
and some styles of huntingthat's, that's good.
But sometimes that can be a con,in the sense that you're trying
to force something instead ofletting something develop and
maybe by pushing it you blew achance at something that you
(24:32):
could and and so smoky justreally told me to.
You know, taught me how to slowdown and and really kind of
measure my movements, measure mydecisions, measure my whole
hunt plan.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I guess I'm trying to say, well, the concept of a
hunt plan and, yeah, what to do,when I know that's where you
got the idea learned theconcepts of baiting we can't
bait anymore but the benefits ofit, because I remember you were
telling me a story of goingwhitetail hunting with him and
(25:06):
new concept to you yeah, neverthought of baiting yeah, never
done that and and the pros andcons to it you know.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And and to clarify guys, so baiting doesn't make
big bucks daylight.
No, contrary to what everybodywants to say.
And if anybody's ever bearhunted or whatnot, the food is
out there at night.
They don't have to come in thedaytime and they know that, you
know.
But there's, there's, there'sbenefits to having a healthy
deer herd and and doing all ofthat and selective harvest and
(25:36):
everything like that, and so,but doing that, being able to
watch species that I'm hunting,whether it's bear, elk, deer,
whatever it is, watching theirhabits and how they interact,
and when you learn your prey,it's much easier to find your
prey if that makes any sense,yeah yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
So, and I've had the chance to meet Smokey and
Annette, his wife several times,and his son, and yeah, what you
say, just the nicest people andhonestly, I had no idea,
because I had met him probablyfour or five times before I
realized that he is asaccomplished of a hunter as he
(26:17):
is, because it's not like he'snot leading with his stories.
No no, he's just one of those.
He just talks to you and samewith annette and she's got some
incredible stories oh yeah,they're both.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
All three of them are in the record books countless
times and they're just thenicest, sweetest people you
could ever meet, and yeah yeah,it's.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
it's like meeting somebody and all of a sudden you
find out like this incredibleskill they have.
Wait, what yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
And that's another thing.
I think that a lot of peopledon't recognize what is really
sitting in front of them.
And.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I say that in the sense that you know.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
So we would shoot archery.
We belonged to the same archeryclub and we would shoot league
and stuff.
And smokey would come in thereand guys would ask questions and
they never.
You know, like you said, theynever knew where he was.
You know, as far as in thehunting world and it's like if
they knew boy, they would bejust sitting there just taking
(27:18):
it all in everything.
Anything that he says you just,I mean, if he tells you it's
gonna rain, start carrying,start carrying an umbrella.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, you know, if it has to do with hunting.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I mean, the guy is just that good and it's just
stuff like that.
Guys like that are justuntapped.
You know, Smoke, he's the kindof guy that wants to teach.
He enjoys teaching.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
But everybody today is in such a hurry, or they look
at him because of his age andthey think, well, you know, just
an old timer doesn't know, andit's like, no, you don't
understand who you're talking to.
You know, and I've literallyseen that happen, because I've
seen a couple of times youngerguys trying to not necessarily
one-up him, but they come inwith their stories Right and
they lead with their stories notrealizing, and he's not the
type of guy and they lead withtheir stories not realizing, and
he's not the type of guy.
(28:06):
He will congratulate them and Ithink that's a lot where you've
learned.
That is just good for you.
I'm glad you got that buck, I'mglad you got that buck, because
that's the type of guy he is.
But it's when I realized who hewas and seeing these
conversations later on, I'mlaughing in my head.
It's like, yeah, he's beenthere, done that, but he's a lot
(28:29):
of humility and just good foryou Both of them, both of them.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And what's funny is, I think what took it to the next
level with me, with Smokey, iswhen I finally realized how big
a name he really is.
We were at a sportsman show andhe's good friends with
Glenberry.
Glenberry comes and stays athis house when he comes over and
he does the Portland SportsmanShow and Glenberry's a big name
(28:55):
in elk hunting and I thought,well, they're friends, that's
cool and everything.
Well, we're at the sportsman,we're walking around and here's
Jim Horn and I'm thinking that'sjim horn.
He's.
He's on the truth primos, thetruth big bulls, you know, and
I've seen him on those videos,those dvds, countless times and
he's got a whole series ofbackpacks that with the
(29:16):
signature jim horn series, youknow, and I'm like that's jim
horn.
Jim walks up, he's a Smokey andhe just shakes hands and they
start hugging and they juststart shooting the breeze, yeah,
yeah and.
I'm like wow, he really isconnected, he really is
well-known.
He was known as Mr Rooseveltfor decades in the record books
(29:37):
because he had killed so manyrecord book Roosevelts and
people don't recognize that.
They don't know that a bookRoosevelt's and people don't
recognize that they don't knowthat.
And it's like what anincredible resource If, if
someone was just to take thetime and sit down with him.
Smokey is a storyteller and,like I said, he wants to teach.
We actually need to get Smokeyon the podcast and just go to
(29:58):
his place and sit down and wewould have to make that podcast
about three hours long.
Cause he's going's gonna rabbittrail down every you know, but
it's gonna be enjoyable.
You're gonna.
You're gonna walk away going.
Wow, that was some time wellspent.
I'm really glad that I sat downwith him, you know we got it.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Okay, we got to get that one on the book.
So because, like you said, he's, he's got a chapter in cameron
haynes' book but he's not awriter himself or anything.
So there's not a lot ofinformation, it's personal
information that you've gleanedfrom him.
But still, if you see or hearthat name, your ear should perk
(30:36):
up.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Absolutely, he's kind of the legend.
That's just kind of.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Under the radar legend Exactly, exactly.
Okay, that's just kind of Underthe radar legend Exactly,
exactly.
Okay, so we could probably talkabout Smokey for a while, but
we're going to move along toBoyd Shelby Jr.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
So that's who.
I actually met him throughSmokey and he's got a DVD.
He used to be at the Swartzmanshows.
He's up north when I say upnorth I'm talking up Seattle
north area, up that way andbasically was guiding for black
tail.
He had two dvds and both dvdswere very, very informative.
They weren't like productionquality kind of stuff, but very
(31:14):
well done in the sense that theway it was all laid out and and
that you were looking at histechnique and you were.
Again, if you're not watchingit for entertainment purposes
solely, but you're watching itto learn stuff, you're going to
walk away from there going.
Okay, boyd uses sense a lot andthat's where I kind of started
my journey down that, that thattrail there, and kind of took
(31:38):
what he was doing and added myown little twist and then learn
some things along the way.
But boy, very successful.
I don't know if he's doing itanymore.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Very nice guy and really good blacktail hunter
really good okay, and I thinkthis is probably true a lot with
blacktail, as we've heard fromguys.
It's like there's just noinformation out there and as
soon as you guys put out thepodcast, like, guys were super
excited because here's somefairly consistent black tail
information.
So it's self.
(32:10):
You know, thinking about hisvideos self-produced.
Well, it's hard when you knowyou don't have editing skills
and all of that to produce likereally high quality TV show Buck
Ventures.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Right, and you're competing against all this other
whitetail hunters, which allthe lower 50 have whitetail, but
there's just the three on theWest Coast that have blacktail,
and it's just a third of thosestates.
So it's like, well, where areyou going to go?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, but we can take what we can get.
There, you go Exactly Okayno-transcript.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Put some hats hats yeah but uh boy, he makes like I
was saying, he and steve isdalldo that same high cascade.
Nathan is in great shape.
Yeah, you know.
He mentioned in his seminarthat that on average, on a good
day, he'll put 19 miles on hisfeet, you know I think it was
like 12 or 13 average 19 is along day.
(33:40):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, and I'mit's just a lot of walking.
That's a lot of walk and it'snot flat walking either no.
And so Nathan's in great shapeand what he does he is
exceptionally good at and makesit look really, really fun.
I wish I could do that.
I'm going to try.
As many you know, I have Lyme'sdisease and and it limits me on
(34:00):
what I can and can't do.
But boy, just sitting there andlistening to his hunts and
everything like that, it's justfun.
It's just fun.
The guy an incrediblevideographer, photographer, just
you know, he is probably thewhole package as far as what you
want, as far as being able notonly to live the hunt but to
(34:24):
remember the hunt and to be ableto come back and stir those
memories with footage.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Well, I remember sitting in his seminar and what
he's looking for.
Even though he's doing the highcascade stuff, he's still
looking for a lot of the sametype of habitat attributes that
you are.
Yeah, and it's interesting.
It's true for blacktail.
You know, certain things arejust true for blacktail weather
and you mentioned, I think withScott Haugen, same thing Valley
(34:51):
bucks, coastal bucks.
There are certain attributesthat are true for all of them,
right?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
And it's funny because everybody wants to make
their deer the exception.
Yeah, and the reality is, isit's?
They're really not, you know.
And when you stop thinking likethat and start thinking like
it's just an ungulate, you knowit's doing things out of
survival, it's not emotion, youknow, and it makes it a little
bit easier to understand themand whatnot.
(35:17):
But again, like Steve Isdall,Nathan spends a lot of time up
there.
He knows his deer, herd youknow he knows his deer herd.
You know he knows the migrationpatterns.
He knows the pockets where theywant to hang.
He's found their bedrooms, youknow.
And when he goes and he doeshis hikes and whatnot, he's got
a plan.
You know, he's got a route thathe wants to take.
(35:38):
It may not be the same exacttrail, but it's going to be the
same route that he takes toaccomplish what he's desiring to
accomplish.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
And he has a lot of stuff on YouTube, tons of stuff
and I would say that's mostlywhere his content is.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Yeah, I'd say both he and Steve Isdall yeah, okay,
youtube.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yep, yep, they're both on there a lot, and that's
you know, I started typing insome of these names into YouTube
and you get pulled up video andyou might even be able to find
clips of old DVDs that guys havejust uploaded to YouTube.
Now, whether or not you canactually do that legally, you
know, that might be a differentstory and stuff.
But one of the things Iremember from going to Nathan's
(36:17):
seminar down in Albany is notonly oh, okay, so he's looking
for some of the same habitatattributes that we are but he
was talking about huntingdifferent states, and so he
shared some stories about Sitkabut also going into California,
which perked the interest of youand DJ and Zach about going.
(36:40):
So now you're going down toCaliforniaifornia because it's
actually for an out-of-statehunt.
it's one of the more affordablehunts to do and they have a
really long blacktail seasonyeah yeah, so very interesting
that you know, because you wouldthink california would be
completely anti-hunter justbecause of the politics and you
(37:03):
know a lot of stuff like thatgoes hand in hand.
But yeah, it seemed to bepretty open to you know, having
out-of-state hunters.
So if you're looking for, butand I think a lot of them down
there big racks, small bodiesand I think your brother's kind
of mentioned that, even thoughhe's Southern Oregon, yeah, he's
just right across the border,but right across the border, but
(37:25):
yeah, big bot, big, big rack,small body.
So they were saying you knowhuge rack, but it was a 90 pound
, 90 pound deer, but last one onour list.
Start looking up all these guysyou know, start gleaning
information.
We hope we gave you a good list, you know.
I know there's a lot of namesthat you might be.
(37:45):
Well, what about this guy?
And so these are just the namesoff the top of that your head
that you came up with.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Oh, there's more than just these guys too.
Yeah there's.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
There's other guys out there and we didn't mention
guys like randy newberg or fredeichler, who have all probably
hunted blacktail at some point,but not aren't necessarily
blacktail guys so right, and Ithink that's what we were trying
to stick with here.
So blacktail guys.
So anyway, thanks for joiningus and we'll talk to you next
week.
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