June 9, 2025 • 39 mins
Discovering why seemingly perfect deer habitat sometimes holds no deer is the mystery every serious blacktail hunter eventually confronts. This episode dives deep into the subtle factors that make or break prime buck territory beyond the obvious "thick cover" most hunters seek.
Dave and Aaron explore how darkness might be even more important than thickness alone, with bucks gravitating to areas so dark that hunters need headlamps while legal shooting light still remains outside. They reveal why September hunting demands a completely different approach, with velvet-antlered bucks often avoiding the thickest cover to protect their sensitive antlers and following predictable daily patterns between core areas and water sources.
The conversation uncovers how prevailing wind patterns can completely nullify otherwise perfect habitat if they don't give deer the scent advantage they need for security. Weather impacts create micro-zones deer consistently avoid, while swamps establish hard edges that serve as prime travel corridors along their thicker sides. The hosts contrast lowland valley hunting with high alpine approaches, acknowledging the dramatically different techniques required for success in each.
Perhaps most valuable is the insight that understanding these habitat nuances typically requires multiple seasons in the same area – explaining why successful hunters spend years learning not just where deer are, but precisely why they use specific areas. Whether you're hunting September velvet bucks or late-season bruisers, these habitat insights will fundamentally change how you evaluate potential hunting spots.
Ready to put these insights into practice? Join us for one of our upcoming field days where we'll show you exactly how to identify these subtle habitat factors in person. Visit blacktailcoach.com to reserve your spot.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron and I'm Dave, so thisweek we are going to talk more
about habitat of the big bucks,and we've talked a lot about
this before, but something thatoccurred to me on our last field
day locating field day that wedid there's a lot of nuance to
it, so I kind of want to dig ina little bit deeper to habitat
(00:23):
and Okay.
And where they're at and whenthey're there and what can
really affect that andeverything.
So we talk about and this issomething we've already talked
about is when it's thick, butthick stuff meaning.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thick while we're hunting, thick when we get out
there and we can actually put astock on.
We got a tag in our pocket andwe're able to.
When we get out there and wecan actually put a stock on, we
got a tag in our pocket andwe're able to harvest an animal
not thick summertime thick, notthick springtime thick, because
that doesn't do us any good okay, and so after all the leaves
have fallen and and the rain iskind of battered down the ferns
(01:01):
and everything else, maybe we'vehad a snow, especially if we're
going December for late archeryand things like that.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
But one of the things I was wondering is September,
so it's early archery, and wehave some guys who do early
archery and guys who've sent inpictures who may want to get
something in velvet Maybe.
You know, maybe that's theirtrophy this year.
They've always wanted a buck invelvet and I mean you've had
that in the past.
(01:30):
Where that's been one of yourtrophies is to get one in velvet
.
So I was thinking aboutSeptember.
Is it's that thick stuff thatwe tell guys not to look for?
It's because everything's superthick, right, or can be super
thick.
You know, if it's that oldgrowth area it can still just be
(01:53):
ferns underneath and so itfeels wide open.
But if sunlight's getting downin there let's say there's no
canopy, sunlight's getting downit's all going to be super thick
, just from the undergrowthreally kind of growing up.
So in September now would thebucks move out of, maybe, their
core area?
They have that 52-acre averagerange and that depends on where
(02:16):
you're at, because it can besmaller, it can be bigger, but
in September and they're goingto spend, like you've shared,
90% of their life or more isspent in 30% of that area.
But could they wander out andconsider like, is the buck
feeling safe in that reallythick September stuff?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So and it's funny we're talking about this because
I was talking with somebodyelse the other day and kind of
went over this very samescenario September is a
different strategy.
As far as we're not in thefirst rut, we're not in the
second rut, we're not in any rut.
Yeah.
And the weather's different,and we're dealing with bucks
(02:58):
that are in velvet or just gothard horned, and so the strategy
is different in that you'restill going to be hunting edges,
okay, so that stays the same.
Yeah.
But you're going to hunt theedges that are more open.
Okay, so you know, if you driveout and you're in the logging
roads and whatnot throughout thesummer, you're going to catch
(03:19):
bucks out in clear cuts.
That's the time you catch bigbucks out in clear cuts.
Yeah.
Okay, Because they're in velvetyou know, and they're going to
hang more to the more open stuff.
So if your intention is to geta buck in September a shooter
buck there are a few things thatI would do.
Number one I would continue tohunt the edges, but I would find
(03:42):
the more open edges, the onesthat don't have as much
underbrush.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Okay, and why is that ?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Because those bucks don't want to be in that thick,
thick stuff, because as soon asthey get out past their ears
with the velvet they move to themore open stuff.
Because they don't want to hitthose antlers on any of the
branches or shrubbery oranything like that, Because
they're full of nerves and bloodand everything and they're
growing so fast.
Yeah.
You know, and as far as theantlers, in the last two weeks
(04:11):
they can grow as much as an incha day.
You know, that's the potentialthat they reach as bucks.
But at the same time, the thingthat I mostly concentrate on is
the nearest source of water to.
So when I say open edges, thoseopen edges are going to be the
closest to their core area.
And then, because when I see abuck out in the open during the
(04:31):
summertime, when I start lookingat onyx, the first thing I want
to do is find the nastiestplace, closest to where I
spotted that buck.
That's where I will start myscouting, that's where I'll
start looking for the bedroom,the bedding area, yeah, and and
then if I'm in september and Iwant to kill a big buck in
(04:52):
september, then I'm going to golook for the first and nearest
source of water okay you know,because that plays a huge role
in in september in september.
Yes, we're dealing with 90degree days, 90 plus degree days
and stuff and and those bucksare.
They're in the more open shadyareas, but they still need water
.
Yeah, you know I mean all thegrass and everything is all
(05:12):
dried up.
I'm sure they get cottonmouthed.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Oh yeah, and just sweating Right, you know
breathing.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, they're going to lose a lot more water that
way and then I would keep myhunts to first thing in the
morning.
First two hours of daylight andthe last two hours of daylight
is really all you need to focuson.
But those bucks are much easierto pattern during that time, so
that is actually a really keything to remember.
It is one of the times whereyou can really pattern a big
buck, because he's still in thatsummer pattern.
(05:43):
He hasn't been pressured at all,so that's the best time to get
in there and get on that buckand get him killed.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
And so when you say pattern, meaning he's moving
from point A to point B, sopoint A being core area to water
, and then back to core area,core area to food source, back
to core area.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, he's going to have a daily routine.
Where it's going to be it'sgoing to because he's
undisturbed, so if he's going towater in the morning, he's
going to keep doing that.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
If he's going to water in the evening, he's going
to keep doing that and he'sbasically going to stay in a
relatively small area.
He really isn't going to movearound a lot, so he's much
easier to pattern that way.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So moving along edges , travel corridors, going from
point A to point B.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So possibly under some sort of cover.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yes, but not near the cover that he would normally be
during hunting season or duringthe rut, and see, that's the
myth.
And if you come to the seminarsyou hear me talk about this the
myth that the best time to geta big buck is during the rut.
That's the hardest time topattern a big buck because
there's no rhyme or reason tohis daily routine outside of the
(06:59):
fact that he is looking for adoe in standing estrus.
That doe could be north of him,south of him, east west, who
knows?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
you know, so he may come out the bedroom door one
day, turn around and not comeback to that for a day and a
half, two, three days, becausehe's locked the doe down you
know Whereas in that summerpattern it's a daily routine and
you can really get a lot ofgood hunts on a buck if you're
able to get in there and figureout his routine from a distance
(07:28):
and then, when the time comes,so something I've never asked
you and going off of what you'vesaid and a little off topic,
but do our does as routine Idon't want to say dependent as a
big buck, or they seem likethey're more flexible, much more
Like they will change theirpattern based on something.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
On hunting pressure.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Okay, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
And not necessarily just from humans.
If the predation in the areaincreases, like we're going into
June, right, and those aregoing to start dropping fawns
here anytime now, anytime now.
So those does that you'reseeing around your place,
they're going to disappear andyou're going to go two weeks to
(08:16):
a month and a half withoutseeing them because they've got
fawns and so they're going tochange their pattern, they're
going to change their routinefor the safety of that fawn.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Okay, and they're dropping fawns right now.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
In June they start dropping fawns yeah.
And what they do just beforethey drop.
They get real secluded.
They don't want to be around abunch of you know.
They really hide themselvesbecause a lot of predators, a
lot of bears, coyotes, bobcats,really capitalize on the fawns
right now, so those does justdisappear for a while.
Okay, hmm.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
So, thinking about those thick areas, is there an
attribute about the thick areaor are there things that can
counteract what might beconsidered a good bedding area?
So thinking about, so we go outand we just look for habitat.
We don't actually look for deer.
That's something that you teach, Correct.
(09:09):
And so when we go out, that'swhat we're looking for Now.
Are there things that, wow,this looks like you might walk
out, this looks like greathabitat.
Is there something?
That can.
Is there something that can,even though it's great habitat
can?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Nullify it.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Nullify it yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, so, and it's tough.
You know there's alwaysexceptions to the rule, you know
what I mean.
So, in the same way thatthere's exceptions to it looking
like a good area and then itturns out not to be, you could
say the same thing about thatlooks like a good area, but this
happened and this happened andthis is happening, so it
(09:47):
probably isn't, and then itturns out to be just fantastic,
you know.
So there's always exceptions tothe rules.
But the thing that I found morethan anything is it can look
completely awesome, completelyawesome.
Like man, there's got to be abedroom in here.
You know just everything thatwe're looking for the, the
habitat, the, the hardwoods andthe conifers, and you know just
(10:11):
thick and it just seems likeit's just a beautiful area.
But I found that if the windisn't right to them, if it
doesn't give them what they wantas far as a prevailing wind
constantly blowing in onedirection, day after day after
day, now it doesn't have to bethat way.
All the time I'm talking, youknow, 90% of the time the wind
is coming this direction.
(10:32):
If, for some reason, they don'tlike that prevailing wind, it
doesn't matter what the habitatlooks like.
It doesn't matter, you know, ifit puts them in any kind of
vulnerable position.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
On a continuous basis .
They just will not be there.
I don't it just.
It can look incredible, but youwill not find deer there if
that wind just does notcooperate.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
That makes sense, and it would also.
It seems like it makes sense ifthere's a lot of either
predators in the area or newpredators move into an area.
Right, right that that could,that they might not necessarily
want to be in that real thickstuff.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And then another one is how does the weather approach
that area?
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Is that an?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
area that just gets hammered by the weather, you
know, whether it's north facing,south facing something about
that hillside or the face ofthat ridgetop or whatever, it
gets such severe weather all thetime because it's just
vulnerable to that, it's open toit.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That the deer just don't want to be there.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
So would that mean a?
I would say maybe a peak.
And I mean and when I say peakso I'm thinking the foothills
that we're around and we huntVader, rider Wood, lewis County,
mossy Rock but even down herein Woodland we have a peak,
(12:01):
might be a couple thousand footelevation or 1,500 or something
like that.
So maybe not the peaks of those, because those, no matter which
way the wind is blowing- or ifa storm's coming in, the peak is
going to get the brunt of that,so is that-.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Right, right.
So let me relate it to you likethis so Mount Hood has Highway
26 that goes over the top of it,yeah, okay.
So everybody drives up everyyear to go skiing at Mount Hood
has.
Highway 26, that goes over thetop of it.
Yeah, okay, so everybody drivesup every year to go skiing at
Mount Hood, whether it's Meadowsor Timberline or wherever they
go up there, and then peopledrive over that pass and go over
to the east side of themountains and everybody thinks
(12:37):
that the drive up to Meadows andTimberline and all that is the
scary part.
But Blue Box Pass, which sitsjust on the north side, gets
iced over more, has more wrecks,is the sketchiest part of that
whole pass.
Yeah.
And it's just a short littlearea in there, but the way the
weather comes in on thatmountain-.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
It funnels through there.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
It funnels through there and it gets the brunt of
just about every storm.
Well, deer, elk animals don'twant to be where the weather is
the hardest.
That's why they follow the snowline down.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
So there's just certain areasthat get the worst part of the
weather.
You know, every storm thatblows through they get the brunt
(13:18):
and when I say the brunt of thestorm, I mean that could be
anything from.
It freezes there and staysfrozen for the longest.
It could be that the wind ishigh winds there and there's
more blow down there.
And so it makes it reallydifficult to traverse,
especially when they're beingchased by predators.
Or it could be that there's aheavier snowfall there that can
(13:43):
attribute to more blow down, soto speak.
You got snow weight on treesand whatnot, bringing them down
and stuff all the time, and thesnow is deeper, so it's harder
for them to walk, it's harder tofind food, you know.
So there's just certain areasin every drainage that is going
to be less pleasing to theseanimals less desirable for them
(14:03):
to be in pleasing to theseanimals, less desirable for them
to be in.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I guess.
Another situation and Iremember this from somebody
telling me about when they wentup to go ski up at Whistler that
when they were up on themountain it was actually warmer
than down in the town ofWhistler because all that cold
air pooled down in the town.
So he said it was justunbearably cold down in there.
But you went up skiing and,granted, there's more physical
activity, but he said it wasactually warmer up there because
(14:31):
you're more exposed to sun.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Inversion.
Yeah.
Yeah, we used to hunt over ineastern Oregon in the blues and
we experienced that inversion alot Down at camp.
It would be colder than when wegot up to where we were hunting
and you know, it just happensall the time.
Well, that affects the animals,okay.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So again, the nuance of habitat that there could be.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
It looks like great habitat, but thinking about the
big picture and I think thatcontributes.
They say that the average guy,the average hunter, puts in
three years for every recordbook or, I'm sorry, for every
mature buck.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I think part of not onlyfiguring that buck out but
figuring out the area uh goesinto that yeah you know what I
(15:17):
mean so it's not something thatyou just figure out the buck.
Sometimes you got to figure outthe area too.
Where do they go when it getsstormy?
Why did they go there?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
you know, I mean it's all part of the the chess match
, but I mean, sometimes it takesa while to figure it out yeah,
and thinking about like hilltopyou know, I figured out more or
during the day they like beingin in kind of a bedding core
area below me, and at night theywould come up to the bedding
(15:46):
area that was slightly above me,and we're talking an elevation
of 20 feet above me, but it wasa bedding area, and so I sat on
that travel corridor in betweenthose two points, but there was,
for some reason they didn'talways, even though I think they
had everything that they couldhave needed up in that upper
bedding area, but for somereason they traveled, and I have
(16:07):
that on camera.
That was all talking about lastweek, when we talked about
collecting data, was that in themorning I would catch them
heading down and the evening I'dcatch them headed up.
Right, right.
Yeah, okay.
So another thing is when wetalked about you talked about
(16:28):
stages of Jackfur to Johnfurduring the locating field day,
and we talked about this isn'tfull enough yet, even though it
was probably super thick areas,it just wasn't full enough yet
or tall enough yet.
And then there's areas and it'sjust perfect.
This is what we're looking for.
(16:48):
And then there's this is the.
Maybe it's got a year or twoleft and then it's not going to
be.
It's going to start opening upStart opening up and then, yeah,
just absolutely, this is nogood anymore.
And one of the things that'sreally noticeable about what's
perfect and what maybe I thinkhelps what he likes to hunt is
what you would say is the tailend of huntable.
(17:25):
You know, a good core area, butit's dark, and so it's more
than just thick, but it's thick,and maybe this is true, maybe
not, but to me it seems likeit's not just thick, but it's
thick and dark.
Uh-huh.
So we lose 15 to 30 minutes inthe morning, 15 to 30 minutes in
(17:48):
the evening because it gets toodark in there to hunt anymore.
Right, and there were timeswhere, okay, I can't see my, and
what I went by was my dripperhanging from the tree 12 yards
in front of me, when I could nolonger see that, really make
that out, I knew, okay, it's toodark, I can't make anything out
(18:09):
here.
So I would head out and I wouldhave to turn on my headlamp to
get out of, to walk the 80 yardsto finally pop out where I was
at on the skidder road.
I could then turn off myheadlamp because it was plenty
light up Right, right, right.
So let's talk about that Thickand dark, or I mean.
What are your thoughts aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Well, I kind of let the buck determine that, you
know.
Okay.
I kind of let the bedroom whereit's located and the habitat
that he's chosen determine and,more importantly, where that
bedroom door is.
You know is it back in there andhe's coming out 80 yards before
he gets out to the open stuff.
It's not as thick, you know, inthat 80 yards, it's not as
(18:54):
thick as the bedroom, but thebedroom door is right there, the
bedroom, but the bedroom dooris right there.
And he's going to go 80, 100yards till he gets out to where
you know he's.
You know he feels like, uh,that he's safe and he can start
moving around, that it's thatit's dark enough and right.
So he's going to stage in that180 to 100 yards, okay, and
sometimes the bedroom butts upright against a travel corridor
(19:18):
that almost pops you right outto a little meadow or an old
skidder road that's not beingused anymore and you have more
light there, you know yeah andso it just kind of.
It kind of depends on where Ifind that bedroom door more,
more than anything.
And I mean like, so when budshot charlie, charlie, he chased
him for three years, two years,two years, and the first year
(19:42):
he kept Charlie would come in, Imean just after daylight, just
after, and he could never gethim to daylight.
He asked me.
He says, david, what do youthink I should do?
I says what's the problem?
And I says, bud, I mean, you'rein the staging area, but he's
not reaching that staging areatill just after dark which was
about 40 yards from the skidderroad, you know.
(20:05):
And then, once he got out to theskidder road, well, you know it
was fine, you know you couldsee and everything.
But, like your scenario you'retalking about, I says, bud, what
you need to do is I said weneed to move you back more
closer to that bedding areabecause that's where he feels
safe enough to daylight.
Yeah, okay, so we moved him 40yards closer to the bedding area
and it made a four-hourdifference in what charlie was
(20:29):
willing to do.
You know so.
But it ended up killing himfirst day of late season the
next year simply by moving at 40yards.
He showed up four hours beforedark, but he was still in thick
enough cover that he felt safe.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
So it wasn't a matter of was hein the right area?
He was in the right area.
He just had to get a littlecloser to the bedding area, to
(20:51):
the bedroom door, rather.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Okay and that sounds, I would say, similar to so.
A lot of what Bud has describedto me for what he hunts ends up
being very similar, especiallyto, like I said, my halfway set.
Very similar.
I mean, he talks about likingholly trees If he finds a holly
(21:14):
tree and mushrooms.
That's what he's looking forand it's not that.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
And he finds them on a Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, but it's not that deer are looking for
mushrooms and holly trees?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
No, no, it's the habitat they grow in.
The same habitat, right, right,right.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
And it's interesting because we went on that locating
field day and, as you'retalking, I'm looking around and
I spot a holly tree.
Right, yeah, I was like, oh well, okay, well, that makes sense.
And then, once he told me aboutthat, we went out because you
and Zach, you were both helpingme get my ground blind up and
everything.
And as we're doing that, I lookdown on the ground and there's
(21:53):
chanterelles everywhere.
And when Bud said that, okay,well, that makes sense.
But that also to me it's like,okay, that's not just thick but
dark, Right, Because I'm 20, 25yards straight line, Granted, I
got to walk about 80 yards toget to my set, but 20, 25 yards
(22:15):
if I were to walk in a straightline to the skidder road, Wide
open, bright, everything else,but it's again super dark right
in there, yeah, and stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Now in a and that's actually a really good point to
make, Aaron, because it can bethick and not be dark, because
it's not tall.
Yeah.
Not tall enough.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
So it's that canopy and I have a, and that's the
thing is, I have a very goodcanopy over my set and it's the
hardwoods and the conifers.
It's a good mix through thereand that's because I'm real
close to a drainage and withdrainage you're always going to
have hardwoods.
That's kind of the first thingthat pops up in a drainage.
(22:58):
If you go to the blast area ofSt Helens, you know the first
trees to grow in that area werehardwoods in drainages Right
Coming in through there.
So but thinking about that,it's really it's just dark in
there.
Uh-huh really it's just dark inthere and even when all the
(23:19):
leaves have fallen off thosehardwoods, it's still really
dark because of I've got a goodmix between both the trees, you
know, and it's still thickbecause I've got, you know, four
foot to eight foot tall salalall around me that is fun to
plow through.
But yeah, it's it kind of isit's a good mix with that
(23:40):
particular spot.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
And you know what's funny is I'm thinking because I
just got back from Manitoba on abear hunt and beautiful country
, canada, great, great huntingand fishery up there and we're
out in the bush and it's thick.
It is super thick, but it's notreally tall where we were, and
so there was a lot of sunlightgetting down to the forest floor
(24:03):
.
I only saw one set of deertracks in the area where we were
.
Okay, you know, and it's one ofthose things where guys, well,
it's thick, thick, thick, yeah,but there's still a, there's a
lot of daylight getting down,there's a lot of sunlight
getting down to the forest floor, so there's a lot of underbrush
growing up, but it ain't tall,and that's like going into an
(24:26):
area here that has a lot ofbriars that are down low you
know, like in an alder patch orsomething like that.
Yeah, so during hunting it'sbright in there and big bucks
just do not like that.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Okay, yeah, you're avoiding light.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, I think that they relate, because deer will
stand still as you walk pastthem, as you drive past.
They'll lay still.
If they think they're not beingseen, they'll just stand there.
And I think that if it's darkand I've seen it with fog too if
there's a fog or if it's darkin there, they feel like it's
safer and and I've seen it withfog too if there's a fog or or
if it's dark in there, they feellike it's safer and they just
stand there.
They just stand still.
You know, and I think thatcorrelates with, like I said,
(25:09):
with like alder patches and thatkind of stuff.
You know everybody's like agreat place to kill a deer is in
an alder patch.
Well, I see deer in alderpatches.
I just don't see a lot of bigbucks there yeah and, and you
know, I just don't see a lot ofbig bucks there.
Yeah, and you know, I justdon't see whether it's on camera
or you know in person a lot ofwhat.
(25:29):
You know what I think a lot ofguys would classify as a shooter
.
You see a lot of forked hornsand maybe a small tree, but you
know the bigger bucks.
You just don't catch out therethat often.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
So what about and I'm bringing this up because we
just end up by them I mean, yougot lucky a swamp, swampy areas
Maybe not necessarily a swamp,but a swampy area or a pond.
You got lucky by walkingthrough a swamp.
I know I walked out there veryswampy area.
A couple of my sets are rightnext to a swamp.
(25:58):
Two of them are right next toswamps.
One is I'm 150 yards from aswamp right so I mean well, for
me it's not.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
It's not just a swamp , it's not.
It's not any swamp, I likewhere we have conifers budding
up on one side of that swamp,which, where I got lucky, on the
far side of that swamp therewas a lot of conifers.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
But the swamp, because it's generally moist
throughout the entirety of theyear.
There's always good growththere, yeah, and there's always
a plethora of just a mixed bagof everything that's got.
There's hardwoods all over theplace because, those grow good
either right next to it or inthe swamp.
(26:41):
Yeah.
You know your conifers tend torot out and they won't do very
well there.
But any high ground the coniferwill grow up because there's
plenty of moisture in the groundand they seem to grow and
they'll grow nice and tight toeach other, you know, and that
creates a hard line.
There's always a hard line on aswamp, you know.
Yeah.
Because in the swamp will be alot of grasses and a lot of the
(27:03):
hardwoods in the water itself.
Outside of that it'll be a lotof conifers and more greenery
grasses, and what I mean by thatis more ferns and sallow type
stuff, and it'll grow thick.
It'll grow really, really thick, and so that's always really
good, and the thicker side tendsto be the travel corridor for
(27:23):
deer, the thicker side of theswamp.
Yeah.
And so that's what I've learnedthroughout the years, and that's
why, whenever I find a swamp, Ilike to see if it's a good
travel corridor on one side orthe other.
And yeah, I've set up severaltimes there and killed big bucks
.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Okay, yeah, that would make sense as far as
thinking about again hilltop.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
You see the edge of the swamp.
It's a hard edge.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yes, oh, very much a hard edge.
Yeah, it's never a good swamp,it'll never have a soft, it'll
always be a hard edge around it,and the middle will always be a
place where no, nothing wantsto hang out, you know, yeah, but
thinking about the on thethicker side there's, there's a
game trail on the thicker side,not necessarily on the side that
, or the, the skidder road side,right, say, right is where that
(28:13):
was at.
Yeah, and I think, with, withlooking and and for, like we
mentioned earlier the Septemberhunts, that might be a good
place to set up.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
There should always be a cool breeze in September by
there.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Because, yeah, water source and everything like that
and, of course which we didn'tmention when it's raining every
day, there's little puddleseverywhere.
They don't need to come down tothe watering hole.
Now Southern Oregon andNorthern California different
story.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, yeah, I don't worry as far as a water source.
Late season around here inSouthwest Washington, I don't
even consider it.
Yeah.
Not for late season.
Early season, yes, late season,I'm not worried about it.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Okay, so we talked about hillsides and you were
talking about north.
Is there something?
So a couple parts with this.
I would say so for hillsides.
I know south-facing, orpotentially west-facing, where
the sun is going to hit it first.
It's going to be in the spring.
There's more food sources.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Right and always on the south-facing.
We'll green up first.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah, which is why they talk about looking for
sheds on south-facing hillsides.
Now, to me that also that wouldbring in maybe not well
predators, all predators,because even if they're not
looking like a bear, might notnecessarily be looking for deer
to eat, but would still beeating so when he first comes
(29:50):
out of hibernation.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, he's on grasses and like grubs and stuff, like
that.
Well, he's going to like yousaid the south slopes green up
first, like that.
Well, he's gonna, like you saidthe south slopes green up first
.
So that's where he's going tobe getting the fresh shoots and
rooting for for grubs and thatkind of stuff so if you hunt
like east side it's, it's a loteasier to see them yeah you know
(30:11):
, but typically nine out of tentimes it's going to be on a
south facing slope okay thenthinking about and kind of
wrapping up with these nextcouple of ideas, but benches.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Now, and I think this kind of goes into like what if
there are no typical core areas?
So when you Because you talkabout the really thick area, and
when I say no typical coreareas, so when we did Our first
Blacktail boot camp we were upCispus, outside of Randall.
Mm-hmm.
And we had a hard time findingthat real thick stuff that we
(30:50):
always talked about Right.
Because we were in the GiffordPinchot.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Right, it's a lot of second and third year growth,
which a lot of people today callold growth, old growth.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, and so there's not a lot of underbrush or cover
underneath that canopy.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
It's just ferns and big trees.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah, and huckleberry bushes and that kind of stuff,
and yeah, so but it is stillreally dark.
It is really dark and there arethick patches.
It's a different kind ofhunting.
You know when you get up tothat altitude.
I mean it's a different kind ofhunting, you know when you get
up to that altitude.
I mean it turns into an alpinehunt where you're getting up and
(31:28):
you're glassing hillsides andyou're bedding those deer down
first thing in the morning andthen you're planting a stock
based on where they're located.
Okay, and it's moreweather-based there, I would say
, you know, in the heat ofsummer, where's the shade?
You know that's where they'regoing to congregate to and
they're going to rotatethemselves in and out of shade
throughout the day.
(31:49):
In the wintertime, it's wherecan they be?
Where the snow isn't deep,where the wind isn't as bad, you
know, where the weather isn'tpounding on them.
You know, so it plays more of arole like a high mountain hunt,
okay, a high cascade hunt andthat kind of scenario because
they're, and that was the thingwe saw deer down at cispas.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah, when we were there, but when you look around,
it's just this open right thisstuff we.
We tell guys when they wentthey ain't coaching.
No, you haven't found thebedding area.
Yeah, it.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, it's just different and and stuff like
that.
I would approach that more ofhunting just edges okay you know
, finding the travel corridor.
You know, and it's not.
We have a tendency to makethings much harder than they
need to be.
Finding a travel corridor canbe as easy as finding, you know,
a game trail, walking down thatgame trail and then finding
(32:44):
where it bottlenecks, where youhave four or five different
trails coming into that sametrail.
Uh-huh.
And well, that's a hub man.
There you go, there's yourtravel course.
There's going to be animals onone of those trails.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah.
You know, and even in therethere are places that they'll
feel safe.
So the second part of this wasthinking about benches, because
you mentioned that this is wherethey could be bedding down is
benches, so a bench being likethree quarters of the way up a
hillside or closer to the top.
And we talked about when wewere talking about wind, how
(33:19):
that wind tunnel effect is whythey probably like benches,
because they can smelleverything above them, they can
smell everything below them andit all kind of the smells
congregate.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
They just lay there and it's brought right to them.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Brought right to them .
Hence, then they start feelingsafe because they're using their
nose to feel safe.
So it seems like with that thata lot of that has to do with
just feeling safe.
So it's looking at if it's allbig timber, where are they going
to feel safe in all of thisstuff?
Yeah, yeah and again.
(33:54):
Then that turns into more of ahigh, high altitude high alpine
hunt yeah, alpine yeah talkingabout and then, like then, it's
watching some some NathanEndicott videos to find out how
he is and he talks about edges.
Yeah, yeah that he's lookingfor those edges as well, because
that's where they're traveling.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, I openly tell guys that's not the kind of hunt
I do.
That doesn't take away from it,that doesn't make it any less.
You know fun or anything likethat.
Nathan endicott does it.
He's fantastic at it yeah he'svery skilled hunter.
Can't say enough good thingsabout him.
Real, real nice guy and justbut it's a different kind of
(34:34):
hunt it's not a lowland deerhunt, it's more of a high alpine
hunt.
Like I'm saying, and you know,there's a lot more hiking
involved, there's a lot moremoving around and and like.
So we went and saw nathan downin albany down in albany speak
at their sportsman show andgreat job, fantastic, enjoyed it
.
You know.
(34:54):
But what you?
You follow him on facebook orwhatever and you realize he
knows that area and it wasn'tjust by hunting at a couple of
season.
That guy puts miles on his feet.
I think he said on a good dayhe does 19.
On an average day what was that?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
an average day, I think average, I think he was
like 10 to 12.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, I was going to say 13.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
And a short day was like six miles.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, and they're not flat miles.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
No, no, no, it's yeah , yeah, you know, and he's in
phenomenal shape.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
But not everybody can do that, you know.
But again, he covers the ground.
That's how he knows that area.
Yeah.
Because I mean, even now,looking at his Facebook site,
now he's up there shed huntingall the time.
Every chance he gets he goes upthere.
So he knows that area, he knowsthe travel corridors, he's up
there, he's figured it out, yeah, by being up there, by walking
(35:51):
those trails and stuff.
So it's a different kind ofhunt, whereas we're down here in
the low valley, you know, andwe're doing valley deer.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, you know.
But, like you just said, heknows that area and when it
takes, on average, three yearsto get a mature buck out of an
area, that's what it boils downto, right, right, figuring out
the nuance of that habitat,right it's a lot more boots on
the ground yeah, and that's, andthat's what it ends up being.
(36:19):
It's, it's that nuance ofknowing more than just find the
thick area.
It's find the thick area andthen find bedroom doors and then
consider the weather and thenconsider, right, how light or
how dark it is, and thenconsider.
So it's just kind of a dominoesof things to consider right,
(36:40):
right.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
it's probably a harder hunt than what I'm doing
and you know, like I said, I gotnothing but good things to say
about him.
You know, I wish I had.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Stamina.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
His stamina.
Well, I wish I was as young ashe is you know, yeah, that's
true.
I'd give body parts to be hisage.
But yeah, I mean, it's a funway to hunt.
My son wants to do it.
I got an apprentice that workswith me that wants to do it.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
They're already down.
They've gone down to Californiaonce to scout.
Yeah.
Heading down here later thismonth, in a couple of weeks, I
think.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And if it were me and I was their age, I'd be doing
the same thing.
Oh yeah.
It looks fun.
It really really does, so hatsoff to you, nathan endicott.
You are the man and with that.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
So yeah, and I think that's.
We just wanted to explore that,the nuance of it yeah I don't
know.
I think it's just to kind ofkeep going and know when to give
up on a spot or move on andwhen to just dial it in even
more.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Right, right, yeah, right, and that's just it.
That's a hard place to figureout.
You know what I mean, butthat's what makes it fun.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah.
You know, yeah, it's that.
Ultimately, if you want a bigbuck, it's chess match between
you and the big buck, and who'sgoing to win?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Exactly, exactly, yep .
Speaker 1 (38:06):
So thanks for joining us, and we will talk to you all
next week.
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
I'm Aaron and I'm Dave, so thisweek we are going to talk more
about habitat of the big bucks,and we've talked a lot about
this before, but something thatoccurred to me on our last field
day locating field day that wedid there's a lot of nuance to
it, so I kind of want to dig ina little bit deeper to habitat
(00:23):
and Okay.
And where they're at and whenthey're there and what can
really affect that andeverything.
So we talk about and this issomething we've already talked
about is when it's thick, butthick stuff meaning.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thick while we're hunting, thick when we get out
there and we can actually put astock on.
We got a tag in our pocket andwe're able to.
When we get out there and wecan actually put a stock on, we
got a tag in our pocket andwe're able to harvest an animal
not thick summertime thick, notthick springtime thick, because
that doesn't do us any good okay, and so after all the leaves
have fallen and and the rain iskind of battered down the ferns
(01:01):
and everything else, maybe we'vehad a snow, especially if we're
going December for late archeryand things like that.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
But one of the things I was wondering is September,
so it's early archery, and wehave some guys who do early
archery and guys who've sent inpictures who may want to get
something in velvet Maybe.
You know, maybe that's theirtrophy this year.
They've always wanted a buck invelvet and I mean you've had
that in the past.
(01:30):
Where that's been one of yourtrophies is to get one in velvet
.
So I was thinking aboutSeptember.
Is it's that thick stuff thatwe tell guys not to look for?
It's because everything's superthick, right, or can be super
thick.
You know, if it's that oldgrowth area it can still just be
(01:53):
ferns underneath and so itfeels wide open.
But if sunlight's getting downin there let's say there's no
canopy, sunlight's getting downit's all going to be super thick
, just from the undergrowthreally kind of growing up.
So in September now would thebucks move out of, maybe, their
core area?
They have that 52-acre averagerange and that depends on where
(02:16):
you're at, because it can besmaller, it can be bigger, but
in September and they're goingto spend, like you've shared,
90% of their life or more isspent in 30% of that area.
But could they wander out andconsider like, is the buck
feeling safe in that reallythick September stuff?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So and it's funny we're talking about this because
I was talking with somebodyelse the other day and kind of
went over this very samescenario September is a
different strategy.
As far as we're not in thefirst rut, we're not in the
second rut, we're not in any rut.
Yeah.
And the weather's different,and we're dealing with bucks
(02:58):
that are in velvet or just gothard horned, and so the strategy
is different in that you'restill going to be hunting edges,
okay, so that stays the same.
Yeah.
But you're going to hunt theedges that are more open.
Okay, so you know, if you driveout and you're in the logging
roads and whatnot throughout thesummer, you're going to catch
(03:19):
bucks out in clear cuts.
That's the time you catch bigbucks out in clear cuts.
Yeah.
Okay, Because they're in velvetyou know, and they're going to
hang more to the more open stuff.
So if your intention is to geta buck in September a shooter
buck there are a few things thatI would do.
Number one I would continue tohunt the edges, but I would find
(03:42):
the more open edges, the onesthat don't have as much
underbrush.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Okay, and why is that ?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Because those bucks don't want to be in that thick,
thick stuff, because as soon asthey get out past their ears
with the velvet they move to themore open stuff.
Because they don't want to hitthose antlers on any of the
branches or shrubbery oranything like that, Because
they're full of nerves and bloodand everything and they're
growing so fast.
Yeah.
You know, and as far as theantlers, in the last two weeks
(04:11):
they can grow as much as an incha day.
You know, that's the potentialthat they reach as bucks.
But at the same time, the thingthat I mostly concentrate on is
the nearest source of water to.
So when I say open edges, thoseopen edges are going to be the
closest to their core area.
And then, because when I see abuck out in the open during the
(04:31):
summertime, when I start lookingat onyx, the first thing I want
to do is find the nastiestplace, closest to where I
spotted that buck.
That's where I will start myscouting, that's where I'll
start looking for the bedroom,the bedding area, yeah, and and
then if I'm in september and Iwant to kill a big buck in
(04:52):
september, then I'm going to golook for the first and nearest
source of water okay you know,because that plays a huge role
in in september in september.
Yes, we're dealing with 90degree days, 90 plus degree days
and stuff and and those bucksare.
They're in the more open shadyareas, but they still need water
.
Yeah, you know I mean all thegrass and everything is all
(05:12):
dried up.
I'm sure they get cottonmouthed.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Oh yeah, and just sweating Right, you know
breathing.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, they're going to lose a lot more water that
way and then I would keep myhunts to first thing in the
morning.
First two hours of daylight andthe last two hours of daylight
is really all you need to focuson.
But those bucks are much easierto pattern during that time, so
that is actually a really keything to remember.
It is one of the times whereyou can really pattern a big
buck, because he's still in thatsummer pattern.
(05:43):
He hasn't been pressured at all,so that's the best time to get
in there and get on that buckand get him killed.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
And so when you say pattern, meaning he's moving
from point A to point B, sopoint A being core area to water
, and then back to core area,core area to food source, back
to core area.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, he's going to have a daily routine.
Where it's going to be it'sgoing to because he's
undisturbed, so if he's going towater in the morning, he's
going to keep doing that.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
If he's going to water in the evening, he's going
to keep doing that and he'sbasically going to stay in a
relatively small area.
He really isn't going to movearound a lot, so he's much
easier to pattern that way.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So moving along edges , travel corridors, going from
point A to point B.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So possibly under some sort of cover.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yes, but not near the cover that he would normally be
during hunting season or duringthe rut, and see, that's the
myth.
And if you come to the seminarsyou hear me talk about this the
myth that the best time to geta big buck is during the rut.
That's the hardest time topattern a big buck because
there's no rhyme or reason tohis daily routine outside of the
(06:59):
fact that he is looking for adoe in standing estrus.
That doe could be north of him,south of him, east west, who
knows?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
you know, so he may come out the bedroom door one
day, turn around and not comeback to that for a day and a
half, two, three days, becausehe's locked the doe down you
know Whereas in that summerpattern it's a daily routine and
you can really get a lot ofgood hunts on a buck if you're
able to get in there and figureout his routine from a distance
(07:28):
and then, when the time comes,so something I've never asked
you and going off of what you'vesaid and a little off topic,
but do our does as routine Idon't want to say dependent as a
big buck, or they seem likethey're more flexible, much more
Like they will change theirpattern based on something.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
On hunting pressure.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Okay, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
And not necessarily just from humans.
If the predation in the areaincreases, like we're going into
June, right, and those aregoing to start dropping fawns
here anytime now, anytime now.
So those does that you'reseeing around your place,
they're going to disappear andyou're going to go two weeks to
(08:16):
a month and a half withoutseeing them because they've got
fawns and so they're going tochange their pattern, they're
going to change their routinefor the safety of that fawn.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Okay, and they're dropping fawns right now.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
In June they start dropping fawns yeah.
And what they do just beforethey drop.
They get real secluded.
They don't want to be around abunch of you know.
They really hide themselvesbecause a lot of predators, a
lot of bears, coyotes, bobcats,really capitalize on the fawns
right now, so those does justdisappear for a while.
Okay, hmm.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
So, thinking about those thick areas, is there an
attribute about the thick areaor are there things that can
counteract what might beconsidered a good bedding area?
So thinking about, so we go outand we just look for habitat.
We don't actually look for deer.
That's something that you teach, Correct.
(09:09):
And so when we go out, that'swhat we're looking for Now.
Are there things that, wow,this looks like you might walk
out, this looks like greathabitat.
Is there something?
That can.
Is there something that can,even though it's great habitat
can?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Nullify it.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Nullify it yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, so, and it's tough.
You know there's alwaysexceptions to the rule, you know
what I mean.
So, in the same way thatthere's exceptions to it looking
like a good area and then itturns out not to be, you could
say the same thing about thatlooks like a good area, but this
happened and this happened andthis is happening, so it
(09:47):
probably isn't, and then itturns out to be just fantastic,
you know.
So there's always exceptions tothe rules.
But the thing that I found morethan anything is it can look
completely awesome, completelyawesome.
Like man, there's got to be abedroom in here.
You know just everything thatwe're looking for the, the
habitat, the, the hardwoods andthe conifers, and you know just
(10:11):
thick and it just seems likeit's just a beautiful area.
But I found that if the windisn't right to them, if it
doesn't give them what they wantas far as a prevailing wind
constantly blowing in onedirection, day after day after
day, now it doesn't have to bethat way.
All the time I'm talking, youknow, 90% of the time the wind
is coming this direction.
(10:32):
If, for some reason, they don'tlike that prevailing wind, it
doesn't matter what the habitatlooks like.
It doesn't matter, you know, ifit puts them in any kind of
vulnerable position.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
On a continuous basis .
They just will not be there.
I don't it just.
It can look incredible, but youwill not find deer there if
that wind just does notcooperate.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
That makes sense, and it would also.
It seems like it makes sense ifthere's a lot of either
predators in the area or newpredators move into an area.
Right, right that that could,that they might not necessarily
want to be in that real thickstuff.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And then another one is how does the weather approach
that area?
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Is that an?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
area that just gets hammered by the weather, you
know, whether it's north facing,south facing something about
that hillside or the face ofthat ridgetop or whatever, it
gets such severe weather all thetime because it's just
vulnerable to that, it's open toit.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That the deer just don't want to be there.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
So would that mean a?
I would say maybe a peak.
And I mean and when I say peakso I'm thinking the foothills
that we're around and we huntVader, rider Wood, lewis County,
mossy Rock but even down herein Woodland we have a peak,
(12:01):
might be a couple thousand footelevation or 1,500 or something
like that.
So maybe not the peaks of those, because those, no matter which
way the wind is blowing- or ifa storm's coming in, the peak is
going to get the brunt of that,so is that-.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Right, right.
So let me relate it to you likethis so Mount Hood has Highway
26 that goes over the top of it,yeah, okay.
So everybody drives up everyyear to go skiing at Mount Hood
has.
Highway 26, that goes over thetop of it.
Yeah, okay, so everybody drivesup every year to go skiing at
Mount Hood, whether it's Meadowsor Timberline or wherever they
go up there, and then peopledrive over that pass and go over
to the east side of themountains and everybody thinks
(12:37):
that the drive up to Meadows andTimberline and all that is the
scary part.
But Blue Box Pass, which sitsjust on the north side, gets
iced over more, has more wrecks,is the sketchiest part of that
whole pass.
Yeah.
And it's just a short littlearea in there, but the way the
weather comes in on thatmountain-.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
It funnels through there.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
It funnels through there and it gets the brunt of
just about every storm.
Well, deer, elk animals don'twant to be where the weather is
the hardest.
That's why they follow the snowline down.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
So there's just certain areasthat get the worst part of the
weather.
You know, every storm thatblows through they get the brunt
(13:18):
and when I say the brunt of thestorm, I mean that could be
anything from.
It freezes there and staysfrozen for the longest.
It could be that the wind ishigh winds there and there's
more blow down there.
And so it makes it reallydifficult to traverse,
especially when they're beingchased by predators.
Or it could be that there's aheavier snowfall there that can
(13:43):
attribute to more blow down, soto speak.
You got snow weight on treesand whatnot, bringing them down
and stuff all the time, and thesnow is deeper, so it's harder
for them to walk, it's harder tofind food, you know.
So there's just certain areasin every drainage that is going
to be less pleasing to theseanimals less desirable for them
(14:03):
to be in pleasing to theseanimals, less desirable for them
to be in.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I guess.
Another situation and Iremember this from somebody
telling me about when they wentup to go ski up at Whistler that
when they were up on themountain it was actually warmer
than down in the town ofWhistler because all that cold
air pooled down in the town.
So he said it was justunbearably cold down in there.
But you went up skiing and,granted, there's more physical
activity, but he said it wasactually warmer up there because
(14:31):
you're more exposed to sun.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Inversion.
Yeah.
Yeah, we used to hunt over ineastern Oregon in the blues and
we experienced that inversion alot Down at camp.
It would be colder than when wegot up to where we were hunting
and you know, it just happensall the time.
Well, that affects the animals,okay.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So again, the nuance of habitat that there could be.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
It looks like great habitat, but thinking about the
big picture and I think thatcontributes.
They say that the average guy,the average hunter, puts in
three years for every recordbook or, I'm sorry, for every
mature buck.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I think part of not onlyfiguring that buck out but
figuring out the area uh goesinto that yeah you know what I
(15:17):
mean so it's not something thatyou just figure out the buck.
Sometimes you got to figure outthe area too.
Where do they go when it getsstormy?
Why did they go there?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
you know, I mean it's all part of the the chess match
, but I mean, sometimes it takesa while to figure it out yeah,
and thinking about like hilltopyou know, I figured out more or
during the day they like beingin in kind of a bedding core
area below me, and at night theywould come up to the bedding
(15:46):
area that was slightly above me,and we're talking an elevation
of 20 feet above me, but it wasa bedding area, and so I sat on
that travel corridor in betweenthose two points, but there was,
for some reason they didn'talways, even though I think they
had everything that they couldhave needed up in that upper
bedding area, but for somereason they traveled, and I have
(16:07):
that on camera.
That was all talking about lastweek, when we talked about
collecting data, was that in themorning I would catch them
heading down and the evening I'dcatch them headed up.
Right, right.
Yeah, okay.
So another thing is when wetalked about you talked about
(16:28):
stages of Jackfur to Johnfurduring the locating field day,
and we talked about this isn'tfull enough yet, even though it
was probably super thick areas,it just wasn't full enough yet
or tall enough yet.
And then there's areas and it'sjust perfect.
This is what we're looking for.
(16:48):
And then there's this is the.
Maybe it's got a year or twoleft and then it's not going to
be.
It's going to start opening upStart opening up and then, yeah,
just absolutely, this is nogood anymore.
And one of the things that'sreally noticeable about what's
perfect and what maybe I thinkhelps what he likes to hunt is
what you would say is the tailend of huntable.
(17:25):
You know, a good core area, butit's dark, and so it's more
than just thick, but it's thick,and maybe this is true, maybe
not, but to me it seems likeit's not just thick, but it's
thick and dark.
Uh-huh.
So we lose 15 to 30 minutes inthe morning, 15 to 30 minutes in
(17:48):
the evening because it gets toodark in there to hunt anymore.
Right, and there were timeswhere, okay, I can't see my, and
what I went by was my dripperhanging from the tree 12 yards
in front of me, when I could nolonger see that, really make
that out, I knew, okay, it's toodark, I can't make anything out
(18:09):
here.
So I would head out and I wouldhave to turn on my headlamp to
get out of, to walk the 80 yardsto finally pop out where I was
at on the skidder road.
I could then turn off myheadlamp because it was plenty
light up Right, right, right.
So let's talk about that Thickand dark, or I mean.
What are your thoughts aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Well, I kind of let the buck determine that, you
know.
Okay.
I kind of let the bedroom whereit's located and the habitat
that he's chosen determine and,more importantly, where that
bedroom door is.
You know is it back in there andhe's coming out 80 yards before
he gets out to the open stuff.
It's not as thick, you know, inthat 80 yards, it's not as
(18:54):
thick as the bedroom, but thebedroom door is right there, the
bedroom, but the bedroom dooris right there.
And he's going to go 80, 100yards till he gets out to where
you know he's.
You know he feels like, uh,that he's safe and he can start
moving around, that it's thatit's dark enough and right.
So he's going to stage in that180 to 100 yards, okay, and
sometimes the bedroom butts upright against a travel corridor
(19:18):
that almost pops you right outto a little meadow or an old
skidder road that's not beingused anymore and you have more
light there, you know yeah andso it just kind of.
It kind of depends on where Ifind that bedroom door more,
more than anything.
And I mean like, so when budshot charlie, charlie, he chased
him for three years, two years,two years, and the first year
(19:42):
he kept Charlie would come in, Imean just after daylight, just
after, and he could never gethim to daylight.
He asked me.
He says, david, what do youthink I should do?
I says what's the problem?
And I says, bud, I mean, you'rein the staging area, but he's
not reaching that staging areatill just after dark which was
about 40 yards from the skidderroad, you know.
(20:05):
And then, once he got out to theskidder road, well, you know it
was fine, you know you couldsee and everything.
But, like your scenario you'retalking about, I says, bud, what
you need to do is I said weneed to move you back more
closer to that bedding areabecause that's where he feels
safe enough to daylight.
Yeah, okay, so we moved him 40yards closer to the bedding area
and it made a four-hourdifference in what charlie was
(20:29):
willing to do.
You know so.
But it ended up killing himfirst day of late season the
next year simply by moving at 40yards.
He showed up four hours beforedark, but he was still in thick
enough cover that he felt safe.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
So it wasn't a matter of was hein the right area?
He was in the right area.
He just had to get a littlecloser to the bedding area, to
(20:51):
the bedroom door, rather.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Okay and that sounds, I would say, similar to so.
A lot of what Bud has describedto me for what he hunts ends up
being very similar, especiallyto, like I said, my halfway set.
Very similar.
I mean, he talks about likingholly trees If he finds a holly
(21:14):
tree and mushrooms.
That's what he's looking forand it's not that.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
And he finds them on a Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, but it's not that deer are looking for
mushrooms and holly trees?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
No, no, it's the habitat they grow in.
The same habitat, right, right,right.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
And it's interesting because we went on that locating
field day and, as you'retalking, I'm looking around and
I spot a holly tree.
Right, yeah, I was like, oh well, okay, well, that makes sense.
And then, once he told me aboutthat, we went out because you
and Zach, you were both helpingme get my ground blind up and
everything.
And as we're doing that, I lookdown on the ground and there's
(21:53):
chanterelles everywhere.
And when Bud said that, okay,well, that makes sense.
But that also to me it's like,okay, that's not just thick but
dark, Right, Because I'm 20, 25yards straight line, Granted, I
got to walk about 80 yards toget to my set, but 20, 25 yards
(22:15):
if I were to walk in a straightline to the skidder road, Wide
open, bright, everything else,but it's again super dark right
in there, yeah, and stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Now in a and that's actually a really good point to
make, Aaron, because it can bethick and not be dark, because
it's not tall.
Yeah.
Not tall enough.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
So it's that canopy and I have a, and that's the
thing is, I have a very goodcanopy over my set and it's the
hardwoods and the conifers.
It's a good mix through thereand that's because I'm real
close to a drainage and withdrainage you're always going to
have hardwoods.
That's kind of the first thingthat pops up in a drainage.
(22:58):
If you go to the blast area ofSt Helens, you know the first
trees to grow in that area werehardwoods in drainages Right
Coming in through there.
So but thinking about that,it's really it's just dark in
there.
Uh-huh really it's just dark inthere and even when all the
(23:19):
leaves have fallen off thosehardwoods, it's still really
dark because of I've got a goodmix between both the trees, you
know, and it's still thickbecause I've got, you know, four
foot to eight foot tall salalall around me that is fun to
plow through.
But yeah, it's it kind of isit's a good mix with that
(23:40):
particular spot.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
And you know what's funny is I'm thinking because I
just got back from Manitoba on abear hunt and beautiful country
, canada, great, great huntingand fishery up there and we're
out in the bush and it's thick.
It is super thick, but it's notreally tall where we were, and
so there was a lot of sunlightgetting down to the forest floor
(24:03):
.
I only saw one set of deertracks in the area where we were
.
Okay, you know, and it's one ofthose things where guys, well,
it's thick, thick, thick, yeah,but there's still a, there's a
lot of daylight getting down,there's a lot of sunlight
getting down to the forest floor, so there's a lot of underbrush
growing up, but it ain't tall,and that's like going into an
(24:26):
area here that has a lot ofbriars that are down low you
know, like in an alder patch orsomething like that.
Yeah, so during hunting it'sbright in there and big bucks
just do not like that.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Okay, yeah, you're avoiding light.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, I think that they relate, because deer will
stand still as you walk pastthem, as you drive past.
They'll lay still.
If they think they're not beingseen, they'll just stand there.
And I think that if it's darkand I've seen it with fog too if
there's a fog or if it's darkin there, they feel like it's
safer and and I've seen it withfog too if there's a fog or or
if it's dark in there, they feellike it's safer and they just
stand there.
They just stand still.
You know, and I think thatcorrelates with, like I said,
(25:09):
with like alder patches and thatkind of stuff.
You know everybody's like agreat place to kill a deer is in
an alder patch.
Well, I see deer in alderpatches.
I just don't see a lot of bigbucks there yeah and, and you
know, I just don't see a lot ofbig bucks there.
Yeah, and you know, I justdon't see whether it's on camera
or you know in person a lot ofwhat.
(25:29):
You know what I think a lot ofguys would classify as a shooter
.
You see a lot of forked hornsand maybe a small tree, but you
know the bigger bucks.
You just don't catch out therethat often.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
So what about and I'm bringing this up because we
just end up by them I mean, yougot lucky a swamp, swampy areas
Maybe not necessarily a swamp,but a swampy area or a pond.
You got lucky by walkingthrough a swamp.
I know I walked out there veryswampy area.
A couple of my sets are rightnext to a swamp.
(25:58):
Two of them are right next toswamps.
One is I'm 150 yards from aswamp right so I mean well, for
me it's not.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
It's not just a swamp , it's not.
It's not any swamp, I likewhere we have conifers budding
up on one side of that swamp,which, where I got lucky, on the
far side of that swamp therewas a lot of conifers.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
But the swamp, because it's generally moist
throughout the entirety of theyear.
There's always good growththere, yeah, and there's always
a plethora of just a mixed bagof everything that's got.
There's hardwoods all over theplace because, those grow good
either right next to it or inthe swamp.
(26:41):
Yeah.
You know your conifers tend torot out and they won't do very
well there.
But any high ground the coniferwill grow up because there's
plenty of moisture in the groundand they seem to grow and
they'll grow nice and tight toeach other, you know, and that
creates a hard line.
There's always a hard line on aswamp, you know.
Yeah.
Because in the swamp will be alot of grasses and a lot of the
(27:03):
hardwoods in the water itself.
Outside of that it'll be a lotof conifers and more greenery
grasses, and what I mean by thatis more ferns and sallow type
stuff, and it'll grow thick.
It'll grow really, really thick, and so that's always really
good, and the thicker side tendsto be the travel corridor for
(27:23):
deer, the thicker side of theswamp.
Yeah.
And so that's what I've learnedthroughout the years, and that's
why, whenever I find a swamp, Ilike to see if it's a good
travel corridor on one side orthe other.
And yeah, I've set up severaltimes there and killed big bucks
.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Okay, yeah, that would make sense as far as
thinking about again hilltop.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
You see the edge of the swamp.
It's a hard edge.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yes, oh, very much a hard edge.
Yeah, it's never a good swamp,it'll never have a soft, it'll
always be a hard edge around it,and the middle will always be a
place where no, nothing wantsto hang out, you know, yeah, but
thinking about the on thethicker side there's, there's a
game trail on the thicker side,not necessarily on the side that
, or the, the skidder road side,right, say, right is where that
(28:13):
was at.
Yeah, and I think, with, withlooking and and for, like we
mentioned earlier the Septemberhunts, that might be a good
place to set up.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
There should always be a cool breeze in September by
there.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Because, yeah, water source and everything like that
and, of course which we didn'tmention when it's raining every
day, there's little puddleseverywhere.
They don't need to come down tothe watering hole.
Now Southern Oregon andNorthern California different
story.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, yeah, I don't worry as far as a water source.
Late season around here inSouthwest Washington, I don't
even consider it.
Yeah.
Not for late season.
Early season, yes, late season,I'm not worried about it.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Okay, so we talked about hillsides and you were
talking about north.
Is there something?
So a couple parts with this.
I would say so for hillsides.
I know south-facing, orpotentially west-facing, where
the sun is going to hit it first.
It's going to be in the spring.
There's more food sources.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Right and always on the south-facing.
We'll green up first.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah, which is why they talk about looking for
sheds on south-facing hillsides.
Now, to me that also that wouldbring in maybe not well
predators, all predators,because even if they're not
looking like a bear, might notnecessarily be looking for deer
to eat, but would still beeating so when he first comes
(29:50):
out of hibernation.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, he's on grasses and like grubs and stuff, like
that.
Well, he's going to like yousaid the south slopes green up
first, like that.
Well, he's gonna, like you saidthe south slopes green up first
.
So that's where he's going tobe getting the fresh shoots and
rooting for for grubs and thatkind of stuff so if you hunt
like east side it's, it's a loteasier to see them yeah you know
(30:11):
, but typically nine out of tentimes it's going to be on a
south facing slope okay thenthinking about and kind of
wrapping up with these nextcouple of ideas, but benches.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Now, and I think this kind of goes into like what if
there are no typical core areas?
So when you Because you talkabout the really thick area, and
when I say no typical coreareas, so when we did Our first
Blacktail boot camp we were upCispus, outside of Randall.
Mm-hmm.
And we had a hard time findingthat real thick stuff that we
(30:50):
always talked about Right.
Because we were in the GiffordPinchot.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Right, it's a lot of second and third year growth,
which a lot of people today callold growth, old growth.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, and so there's not a lot of underbrush or cover
underneath that canopy.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
It's just ferns and big trees.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah, and huckleberry bushes and that kind of stuff,
and yeah, so but it is stillreally dark.
It is really dark and there arethick patches.
It's a different kind ofhunting.
You know when you get up tothat altitude.
I mean it's a different kind ofhunting, you know when you get
up to that altitude.
I mean it turns into an alpinehunt where you're getting up and
(31:28):
you're glassing hillsides andyou're bedding those deer down
first thing in the morning andthen you're planting a stock
based on where they're located.
Okay, and it's moreweather-based there, I would say
, you know, in the heat ofsummer, where's the shade?
You know that's where they'regoing to congregate to and
they're going to rotatethemselves in and out of shade
throughout the day.
(31:49):
In the wintertime, it's wherecan they be?
Where the snow isn't deep,where the wind isn't as bad, you
know, where the weather isn'tpounding on them.
You know, so it plays more of arole like a high mountain hunt,
okay, a high cascade hunt andthat kind of scenario because
they're, and that was the thingwe saw deer down at cispas.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah, when we were there, but when you look around,
it's just this open right thisstuff we.
We tell guys when they wentthey ain't coaching.
No, you haven't found thebedding area.
Yeah, it.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, it's just different and and stuff like
that.
I would approach that more ofhunting just edges okay you know
, finding the travel corridor.
You know, and it's not.
We have a tendency to makethings much harder than they
need to be.
Finding a travel corridor canbe as easy as finding, you know,
a game trail, walking down thatgame trail and then finding
(32:44):
where it bottlenecks, where youhave four or five different
trails coming into that sametrail.
Uh-huh.
And well, that's a hub man.
There you go, there's yourtravel course.
There's going to be animals onone of those trails.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah.
You know, and even in therethere are places that they'll
feel safe.
So the second part of this wasthinking about benches, because
you mentioned that this is wherethey could be bedding down is
benches, so a bench being likethree quarters of the way up a
hillside or closer to the top.
And we talked about when wewere talking about wind, how
(33:19):
that wind tunnel effect is whythey probably like benches,
because they can smelleverything above them, they can
smell everything below them andit all kind of the smells
congregate.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
They just lay there and it's brought right to them.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Brought right to them .
Hence, then they start feelingsafe because they're using their
nose to feel safe.
So it seems like with that thata lot of that has to do with
just feeling safe.
So it's looking at if it's allbig timber, where are they going
to feel safe in all of thisstuff?
Yeah, yeah and again.
(33:54):
Then that turns into more of ahigh, high altitude high alpine
hunt yeah, alpine yeah talkingabout and then, like then, it's
watching some some NathanEndicott videos to find out how
he is and he talks about edges.
Yeah, yeah that he's lookingfor those edges as well, because
that's where they're traveling.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, I openly tell guys that's not the kind of hunt
I do.
That doesn't take away from it,that doesn't make it any less.
You know fun or anything likethat.
Nathan endicott does it.
He's fantastic at it yeah he'svery skilled hunter.
Can't say enough good thingsabout him.
Real, real nice guy and justbut it's a different kind of
(34:34):
hunt it's not a lowland deerhunt, it's more of a high alpine
hunt.
Like I'm saying, and you know,there's a lot more hiking
involved, there's a lot moremoving around and and like.
So we went and saw nathan downin albany down in albany speak
at their sportsman show andgreat job, fantastic, enjoyed it
.
You know.
(34:54):
But what you?
You follow him on facebook orwhatever and you realize he
knows that area and it wasn'tjust by hunting at a couple of
season.
That guy puts miles on his feet.
I think he said on a good dayhe does 19.
On an average day what was that?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
an average day, I think average, I think he was
like 10 to 12.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, I was going to say 13.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
And a short day was like six miles.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, and they're not flat miles.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
No, no, no, it's yeah , yeah, you know, and he's in
phenomenal shape.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
But not everybody can do that, you know.
But again, he covers the ground.
That's how he knows that area.
Yeah.
Because I mean, even now,looking at his Facebook site,
now he's up there shed huntingall the time.
Every chance he gets he goes upthere.
So he knows that area, he knowsthe travel corridors, he's up
there, he's figured it out, yeah, by being up there, by walking
(35:51):
those trails and stuff.
So it's a different kind ofhunt, whereas we're down here in
the low valley, you know, andwe're doing valley deer.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, you know.
But, like you just said, heknows that area and when it
takes, on average, three yearsto get a mature buck out of an
area, that's what it boils downto, right, right, figuring out
the nuance of that habitat,right it's a lot more boots on
the ground yeah, and that's, andthat's what it ends up being.
(36:19):
It's, it's that nuance ofknowing more than just find the
thick area.
It's find the thick area andthen find bedroom doors and then
consider the weather and thenconsider, right, how light or
how dark it is, and thenconsider.
So it's just kind of a dominoesof things to consider right,
(36:40):
right.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
it's probably a harder hunt than what I'm doing
and you know, like I said, I gotnothing but good things to say
about him.
You know, I wish I had.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Stamina.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
His stamina.
Well, I wish I was as young ashe is you know, yeah, that's
true.
I'd give body parts to be hisage.
But yeah, I mean, it's a funway to hunt.
My son wants to do it.
I got an apprentice that workswith me that wants to do it.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
They're already down.
They've gone down to Californiaonce to scout.
Yeah.
Heading down here later thismonth, in a couple of weeks, I
think.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And if it were me and I was their age, I'd be doing
the same thing.
Oh yeah.
It looks fun.
It really really does, so hatsoff to you, nathan endicott.
You are the man and with that.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
So yeah, and I think that's.
We just wanted to explore that,the nuance of it yeah I don't
know.
I think it's just to kind ofkeep going and know when to give
up on a spot or move on andwhen to just dial it in even
more.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Right, right, yeah, right, and that's just it.
That's a hard place to figureout.
You know what I mean, butthat's what makes it fun.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah.
You know, yeah, it's that.
Ultimately, if you want a bigbuck, it's chess match between
you and the big buck, and who'sgoing to win?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Exactly, exactly, yep .
Speaker 1 (38:06):
So thanks for joining us, and we will talk to you all
next week.
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