April 21, 2025 • 44 mins
Washington's new regulations banning deer baiting and restricting scent attractants have dropped like a bombshell on the blacktail hunting community. As hunters scramble to understand what's legal and what isn't, we break down the official language and unpack what these changes mean for your hunting strategy this season.
The science behind these regulations raises significant questions about their application to blacktail deer populations. While most CWD research focuses on whitetail and mule deer behavior, blacktail exhibit fundamentally different social patterns. Where whitetail commonly form winter herds numbering in the hundreds, blacktail rarely congregate in groups larger than five to seven deer. With mature blacktail bucks spending most of their lives in solitary seclusion within small core areas, they represent what experts call "the poster child for not spreading CWD" – a fact reinforced by the complete absence of documented CWD cases in blacktail populations.
Despite these differences, hunters must adapt. The good news? Synthetic scents remain legal and effective alternatives to natural urine-based attractants. We discuss which companies produce quality synthetic options and how to identify products from manufacturers following responsible testing protocols through the RHSA certification. For many hunters who've used both natural and synthetic scents, there's little difference in effectiveness – suggesting this adaptation may not significantly impact success rates.
Beyond scent strategies, we explore whether these regulations reflect science-based decision making or potentially agenda-driven politics. The three scientific approaches to controlling CWD – removing attractants, increasing food availability, and reducing deer density – offer alternative regulatory paths that might better address the unique characteristics of blacktail populations.
Whether you're frustrated by these changes or simply looking to adapt quickly, this episode provides the practical guidance you need to maintain your hunting success within the new regulatory framework. Remember, 90% of blacktail hunting success comes from habitat selection, buck identification, and scent control – factors that remain entirely within your control regardless of baiting restrictions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
This is Aaron and I'm Dave, soa lot of guys have been asking
us about a CWD update or aresponse to the news for the
last month and we've wanted towait till it was finally in
print before creating an episodebefore we responded.
(00:21):
So I wanted to start off byreading the news.
Statewide prohibitions are nowin place for baiting and feeding
deer elk or moose.
It is unlawful to hunt for deerelk or moose using any type of
bait placed exposed, deposited,distributed, scattered or
otherwise used for the purposeof attracting these species with
(00:44):
the intent to hunt them.
Bait, in quotation marks, isany substance that could serve
as a lure, food or attractionfor deer elk or moose, including
natural or synthetic scentsthat contain or are derived from
cervid, urine or glandularextracts.
Exceptions hunting on or overthe following is not considered
(01:08):
an unlawful use of bait whilehunting deer elk or moose
Locally common agriculture andranching practices, including
salt or mineral distribution andfeeding Food that is available
from undisturbed, wild,volunteer or planted vegetation,
including fruit trees, orchards, vineyards and food plots.
(01:29):
Synthetic scents or lures thatdo not contain or are derived
from cervid, urine or glandularextracts.
Naturally occurring mineraldeposits or as authorized by a
department issued permit issuedto address a management
objective.
Exceptions do not includeaccidental or intentional spills
(01:50):
, dumping or storage ofagricultural produce, feed or
bait.
It is also unlawful to feeddeer, elk or moose or to allow
food to be placed to feed otherwildlife that causes deer, elk
or moose to congregate.
Wildlife that causes deer, elkor moose to congregate.
This restriction does not applyto agricultural practices such
as crop production, harvest oranimal husbandry.
So that's it.
(02:11):
That is what they put into theregs and so that is what we're
going to respond to and talkabout and kind of where do we go
from here?
So there's a lot on the websiteand I recommend everybody going
on to WDFW and looking ateverything they have related to
CWD and how they reached thisdecision.
You can find the presentationby biologists, which is what
(02:35):
they used when they presented itto the director and they also
used they have on the website avideo series from MSU,
mississippi State University,deer Lab.
So if you go to YouTube andtype in MSU Deer Lab, you'll
have a series of videos talkingabout CWD.
They're all like two minuteslong, but it's a lot of what
(02:57):
they did is based off of that.
So some things that they didn'tdo that would make sense but
they didn't and we'll get ontothat.
Our goal and this I was tellingDave now we want to educate.
We're not going to rant, butthere might be a little bit of
ranting about this Because Ithink a lot of us are upset that
(03:17):
maybe that it was knee-jerk.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I would say yeah it seems more like an agenda than
it does a science-based move tome.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Now, having gone through everything that they
have on the website, I thinkthat they actually.
I think there is some agendabehind what some of the people
did some commissioners but a lotof it is science-based.
But the problem I found andthis is the biggest issue I had
(03:47):
with it is that it'sscience-based off of whitetail
and mule deer behavior, notblacktail.
And I don't know about if RockyMountain elk and Roosevelt elk
if there's a big difference, butI do know Rocky Mountain or
Roosevelt elk do herd up as well.
They're maybe not as big ofherds as Rocky Mountain elk, but
(04:09):
they do herd in bigger herds.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
But as far as blacktail are concerned they're
very different species and we'llget into that more in a little
bit.
But that was kind of my thoughtwas that was not the best
science to do with a blanket.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And for those listeners that don't know, aaron
and I spend a lot of time.
We read a lot of articles.
I watch a lot of interviews.
Aaron watches, I mean, we'reconstantly and I've been doing
this for years, for decades, andI've been doing this for years,
for decades, and so you knowall of the studies that we've
(04:53):
done on the CWD and bringing onJosie and her expertise that she
brought forward and everything,and multiple interviews that
I've watched with Dr Deere, daveKroll and other gentlemen that
are pretty high up in this fieldas far as their exposure to the
public as well as, like justtoday, I just and I told you
this, aaron I posted aninterview with Lee Kozlowski,
lee and Tiffany the crush wherethey were asking him about CWD
(05:15):
and his opinion was that it'sjust a big scam.
I believe Dr Deere said thesame thing that everything that
they've done so far with theprohibiting of baiting and a lot
of the stuff in that regardthat they've done has really not
done a single thing to helpwith any prevention.
(05:36):
And they're all talkingwhitetail, and whitetail very
much heard up.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, and I think or I remember Josie, dr Josie Rose,
when she was on here shebrought up the point that the
most effective that they foundup to this point is getting
those animals out of thepopulation.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
And that interview that I posted this morning and,
guys, that was on my ownpersonal Facebook page.
So let's go ahead and blow thatup.
Dave Riley R-I-L-E-Y.
Let's make me famous that way10,000 friends to any way, shape
(06:21):
or form.
As far as the spread orcontainment of that disease, cwd
, with what they've done so farand as far as he's concerned and
I know several otherspecialists and biologists in
this area would recommendallowing the baiting and would
encourage that to simply getthese animals out of the herd.
(06:42):
To get them out of there.
Not just get them out of theherd, but get them out of the
woods, so those prions are notleft out there anymore.
Get them.
I'm sorry and it seems cruel tosay this to some people and I
apologize if this hurts yourfeelings, but the reality the
harsh reality is is that we needto get them out of the herd and
they need to be dealt withappropriately, whether it's
(07:04):
incineration or whatever, but toget those prions out of there
so that we can have healthy deerherds.
Saying all of that, there hasnever been a case of CWD in
blacktail.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, and we'll get into those specifics about
blacktail towards the end,towards the end the.
And so I not necessarily toplay uh, devil's advocate, but
one of the concerns with, andwhy they passed the no baiting
to hurt up is it as it isgrowing in the body and mutating
(07:39):
the prions that are within thebody.
It can take up to a year and ahalf for them to show signs.
So that is the biggest reasonwhy they aren't using just the.
Harvest them out, that is themost effective, but they're
trying to do something to getahead of even that Right.
(07:59):
But the problem is, is it's 15months or a year and a half
right around there where this isgrowing?
Well, if, if they're notshowing any sign right, you had
mentioned michigan uh tests, youhave to have every animal every
, every, every animal harvestedwhere don't?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
that doesn't matter where you're at in the state has
to hit a checkpoint, you haveto have it tested.
Nothing can go out of thatstate as far as is.
You get an animal there, it'sgoing to stay there.
But, that being said, okay.
So why couldn't we have donethat?
Other states have taken and theunits where they have detected
CWD, they have placed therestrictions on those units
(08:40):
alone.
I go back to the interview andyou'll hear me say this quite a
bit.
I think this episode that LeeKozlowski gave and he was saying
and I mentioned this to you,aaron, and I'm not sure how much
truth there is to this, but hewas saying he doesn't understand
what the big deal is.
He says there's a bigger threatfrom EHD than there is from Cwd
(09:03):
.
Ehd will wipe out a herd in in amatter of hours yeah you know,
whereas cwd over time, you know,does affect the herd and it is
a very painful thing to watch tosee a deer go through.
That.
I get that, I absolutely getthat.
But his, one of his points wasit's not harmful to humans.
And again I go back to if weget those animals harvested and
(09:27):
we went to a testing location,if we had checkpoints where
these things have to be testedand you were telling me that
they have a test, that is reallyquick.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
It's quick and I think that actually was the
RT-QUIC R-T-Q-U-I-C.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
And.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
I meant to look that up with the exact what it stood
for, but it is accurate.
It is the testing that they donow for CWD.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
So if that were the case and we had checkpoints and
everybody who harvested ananimal stopped at that
checkpoint and got their deertested, and if it tested
positive, I don't know too manypeople that would not give up
their animal if they thoughtthey were going to be harmed by
CWD.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, now, having watched those videos, they
referenced some studies becausethey were trying to determine so
, if a human eats mad cow beinga similar prion disease in cows
eats mad cow being a similarprion disease in cows bovines.
(10:32):
But if a human eats a cowinfected with mad cow they can
contract it.
Correct the human version, theJakob-Kruitzfeld disease.
Now, josie referenced thatthere were a couple people who
ate tainted meat in Texas whocame down with the Jakob
Krutzfeld, but they couldn'tfind a direct correlation or
causation.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And between venison or beef.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
They ate some tainted venison and they developed that
.
They've also done animalstudies.
They did chimps and rats andpigs and one other animal and
they referenced that in thoseMSU Deer Lab videos and some of
the animals that they fedtainted meat to came down with a
version of a prion disease andsome of them didn't.
(11:16):
So as of right now it'sinconclusive.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
And, like I said, I don't know that.
I agree with Lee Kozlowski onthat.
It's not harmful to humans, butI still fall back on the
premise that if we hadcheckpoints and they were tested
, who wouldn't give it up?
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, I mean, if I'm in eastern Washington, I would
probably have my deer tested.
I wouldn't want to risk thatthat it's not a risk worth
taking right and you know Iwould be glad I pulled one out
of the right out of the wild.
But yeah, I wouldn't want to,necessarily I wouldn't want to
eat the thing so and withanything.
(11:56):
Make sure that you're up to date, especially if you're over in
those counties.
You're up to date withtransportation laws, having
checks done all of that.
Make sure you're really up todate with any new regulations
regarding that.
Right.
So going back to, because a lotof guys have asked how we're
adapting, now I would say a bigaspect of this system and what
(12:20):
I've learned is hunting is aboutadapting your methods and
pivoting when you need to.
And this is a different type ofadapting and pivoting than
we've done in the past, where itmight be changing your set
doing this, but you're alwaysneeding to adjust.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So people are asking okay, well, you talk about a lot
of sense and a lot of baiting,what are you doing now?
And so, well, let's talk aboutthis.
What are we doing now?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
We're closing the doors.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yep, we're done.
No, we're not so syntheticscents.
If and this is one of thethings that from everything that
I researched if you are an area, if you listen to this, this
podcast, maybe you're not inwhere you're not hunting
blacktail, but for some reasonyou like the way dave and I talk
, if you're still able to usereal urine-based and gland-based
(13:14):
pheromones, here's what youshould be looking for.
So, companies that participaterhsa, the responsible hunting
scent, so RHSA certified, andthey'll say on the packaging,
the RT I'll just call it RTquick, but it's RT-QUIC testing
Between those.
(13:34):
They have to test a third oftheir herds or 20 or 30% of
their herd, entire herd, everyyear and every three years I
believe it's 100% testing.
I was looking at Conquest'swebsite so Conquest Sense they
said the 11.
Companies that are all part ofthis association right now have
(13:56):
never had a CWD testing.
A lot of really goodinformation on the Congress.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
They've never had a positive test.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Test for CWD Correct, correct In any of their deer.
And that is even before, Ithink, they even started all of
this.
So look for those, becausethose are ethical.
I would say that they'reethical responsible companies
and those are who we should besupporting.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, they're ahead of the game.
They're trying to get in frontof this.
They're going to be the onesthat I mean, because this is
going to be required by everycompany here in no time.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, Conquest and Tink's being a couple of those
companies that have that stampon their products.
I'm sure there are others.
Like Conquest said, there were11 on their website.
I don't know what the othersare, but those are the ones that
we've used their products inthe past.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Right, tinks is our sponsor, but both of these
companies make synthetics, andso to touch on that real quick
here, aaron, read the regulation, the change in the regulation.
It is kind of confusing becauseit kind of makes it sound like
synthetics are not legal.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
But they are, synthetics are legal yeah okay,
synthetic scents and attractantsare legal you can't use them if
they're derived from real urineor gland excretions, which is
well, yeah, it wouldn't besynthetic.
So I don't know, maybe there'ssomething out there where it's
not the case.
So we're going to syntheticsand some of them when we've
(15:22):
talked about is donestrous buckurine, bedding pheromone, and we
talked about the Hoda accentrope, which is an ocular gland,
correct, those are the four thatwe've pretty much used.
Hot Sense and Conquest bothmake for the bedding pheromone.
They make a synthetic versionof that.
(15:44):
Hot Sense actually does blacktail synthetics, where Conquest
is all white tail synthetics.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Not that it makes a difference.
I've been using tinks for thelongest time.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
It's all white tail difference.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah, I've been using tinks for the longest time and
it's all white.
Yeah, and and on, and, in allhonesty, I've cycled real urine
and synthetics, uh, on my hunts.
Not purposely, as far as thatwas my intention.
It was well the.
You know the store is out ofwhat I need.
I'm in a pinch, so no, they gotsynthetics and I've never
noticed a difference.
They work just as well.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, so we have to switch now to synthetics.
Okay, which companies?
You know who's putting in theeffort to create a good
synthetic?
So one of the things I cameacross is and I can't remember
the name of the company, butthey said that some companies
will put ammonia, mix it withwater, put in a little bit of
like food coloring and call itsynthetic.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Oh, what company was that?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
So you want to make sure that you're getting a
company that's reliable withtheir synthetics.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Because if you put something like that down you
will blow the deer out of thearea.
But Conquest and Tinks areprobably the ones that we're
going to I would say pivot to,and Hot Scentz, I would think,
because they have the Blacktailversion just to try them out,
and then next year at some pointwe'll give you an update of the
outcome.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Hopefully we've got a lot of gripping grins to pitch,
to show you, to demonstrate theoutcome.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
And, like I said, the Hodag, which isn't a real, real
I would say critical piece.
It's something extra that weput out there, Right right.
They make a synthetic versionof that.
So here's the thing that I wasthinking about, that and you can
tell me what you think.
The idea behind that is deercome in and they rub their
ocular gland onto this rope.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
So if the idea is that they're not sharing bodily,
I'm laughing already because ifyou guys can see his face and
how he's trying to present thiswithout making it sound like
this is retarded- yeah, anyway,okay, they make it synthetic,
which means we can use it.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
But as far as I would say to everybody, follow your
conscience.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
It's tough because the whole premise of that scent
rope is for them to put theirscent on it, yeah.
And it's like well, that's whatthey're trying to avoid.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Now I would say, if you're hunting mule deer or
whitetail and you're usingsomething like if you're in the
CWD area, I would give it up.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Now, being in a black tail area, I'm thinking, okay,
I'm probably still going to usethat, because I don't think
there's any chance of themgetting CWD from it.
Like zero chance.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
So I think I could still, I still feel okay using
it.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
The law.
I'm not going to rant on it,but it just seems like it's
written so that there are someareas that are a little vague on
on how a person is supposed to,or how a person can react, or
or utilize or interpret.
Yeah, and I'm like okay, doesthat mean we're being told one
thing and then told the exactopposite in the next paragraph?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
yeah, I would say that covers the sense.
I mean, uh, we're, that's whatwe're pivoting.
Yeah, we're going to,absolutely yeah, and the system
is mostly scent based guys Imean that's, you don't have to
use any kind of bait.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It was just something that was mentioned.
It, if you are a person thatwants to use it, you can, but it
was simply the sense is whatbrings the bucks around.
That's what's bringing thesebig bucks in.
That's what's causing them tocome back.
I explain it.
We talk about the first rut,the second rut.
The reason those bucks arecoming in is because they're
(19:28):
looking and you can keep themcoming back.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
The best we could hope for was the doe coming in
for the bait and a buck beinghot on a big buck, which is what
happened to me.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, twice.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, and so it is another effective tool in the
toolbox.
But the box is full of tools.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
And so you don't have that one specific tool, but you
still got a bunch of tools toget the job done.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, so baiting attractants and minerals?
Here is because they talk aboutfood plots and apple trees and
things like that, and you're notgoing to get in trouble for
having apple trees.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Again, I go back to what I said.
It's kind of vague.
I mean one sentence we're toldwe can't.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
The other sense we're told we can yeah, now I'm
taking it as no on any baitingon any right attractants there.
There might be a way of gettingsome food smell in the area
where they don't have access toit and where they might not like
if you were to go pour, I don'tknow, some sort of liquid deer
(20:35):
candy on the ground, they'restill potentially going to lick
that up.
Correct?
It means if multiple deer, theycould be swapping spit.
So then that creates apotential risk.
Now, if it doesn't create asituation where they can't find
the food, are you okay?
They leave, but then they stillsmell the food.
(20:57):
So maybe they come back Becausethey smell something that is
intriguing them.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I mean, it's just it's.
I don't want to say that it'spoorly written, I just want to
say that it's vague.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
There are some areas where I have questions.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Maybe we'll get them answered as we get into this.
Yeah, and we had, in this brieftime since they came up with
this decision, we had three newpeople added to the commission,
the Washington State GameCommission.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
They all three seem to be very pro fishing hunting,
so we might have and I don'tknow who they replace and, and,
in all honesty, we've watchedother states reverse their
stance on baiting yeah, goingfrom a complete prohibition to,
uh, reversing that completelyand allowing it again and
(21:49):
actually encouraging it to getsick animals out but yeah
whether we see that or not, isis yet to, or will they refine
it in the future?
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, I'm going to say kind of the conclusion I
came to is the government hasunlimited resources to come
after you if they think thatthey need or want to come after
you.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
And we've watched that.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Do you have unlimited resources to defend yourself?
If you don't, I would suggesterring on the side of caution,
and that is going to be ourstance for bait, minerals and
attractants.
I don't have unlimitedresources to defend myself
against an accusation and, as Iinterpret this regulation, I'm
(22:31):
going to err on the side ofcaution.
And now, if there's a way thatit can be adapted, I will
probably try to.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
but I'm going to go with it for now.
Oh, absolutely.
And you know, to get thisreversed.
If that's what you're wanting,well, start a petition, start
getting people together, gettingsignatures and guys, you know
that stuff happens.
It starts with one person.
It's got to start with somebody, you know.
If that's what you're wanting,if you're wanting and it's not
(22:58):
just if you're upset about thebaiting thing, it's not just
that, it's the same with anypart of our.
They're regulating the bear.
Now, as far as they're doingjust like they're doing with
cougar, you have a quota forcertain areas, you know.
And it's like well, come on,you know, Somebody's under the
delusion that there's fewer bearout there than there's ever
been.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And it's like that's not even remotely close.
Unless that quote is harvest acrapload.
It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
And it's just like you've got to be kidding me.
Well, we could use houndhunting or baiting back in that
area, but it starts withpetition.
It starts with us stopseparating ourselves.
As far as I'm a rifle hunter,I'm a muzzleloader or I'm an
archer, no, you're anoutdoorsman, you're an outdoors
person.
We're all on the same team.
We need to start acting like it.
Yeah, we're all part of thesame family here, guys, and the
(23:49):
only way to overcome this stuffand to get some of these laws
back, these rights back, is byworking together.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Okay, so, going back to those videos that I watched,
they had three suggestions andthis is put together by doctor,
veterinarians, so people who canspeak authoritatively on this.
They made three suggestions forlowering the spread of CWD.
One of them remove attractantsand washing in.
This is why there's no baiting,minerals or attractants.
(24:19):
That is the principle that theyare following there.
Another one which wasinteresting but this goes back
to talking about whitetail muledeer is increase food
availability, so creating foodplots for deer, which seems
counterintuitive Right right.
But when you think of thehabitat that those deer are
(24:39):
running around in, food is alittle more scarce, especially
when you go into thinking about,maybe, the Midwest, which is
where this is most prevalent.
The Midwest Well, it's not anissue for blacktail.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, there's tons of food.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Acreage.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Tons of acreage and I get the whitetail.
What they're trying to do issupply a food source that isn't
focused into a little area, butif it's an acre to two acres,
that's plenty of room for deerto spread out and feed.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
And that's the key is to spread out and feed.
Well, blacktail don't have thatproblem.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, well, blacktail , don't have that problem.
Yeah yeah, we've got foodeverywhere and I would say that
we have a few deer who come into our sets, and 80% of the
apples are probably eaten byfour deer or less.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And it's usually a spike.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
And it's usually a spike.
I had a spike, I had a two bythree and then I had a doe and a
yearling Maybe a couple does.
That came in more than I wouldsay three times or four times
they would come in.
They were the ones eating allthe apples, and that was more
lazy behavior on the animal'spart.
(25:52):
Right, right, instead ofwalking around three miles and
nibble here, nibble there, justgo over there and eat, because
there's a pile of food overthere.
But it's not an issue.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
No, your big mature bucks.
They're not interested in that.
They're interested in the.
Does you know?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
And if they're leaving during the rut to come
find those does well.
If they're not leaving, they'rehanging out and they'll eat
whatever they can find.
That's in that thick densehabitat yeah they're not.
Hey, there's some apples overthere, I'm gonna go eat those.
No, those are in an unsafe spot.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Forget it yeah well and that's the thing.
They didn't get big by beingstupid.
Yeah, you know.
And and again there's.
There is a large food sourceeverywhere yeah in the northwest
.
I mean it's a rainforest and,like antler, growth is very
seldom does that.
We see a downturn in that.
As far as okay.
(26:47):
So we hit a drought.
This area is low in mineralsbecause there hasn't been much
rainfall, and so there's not alot of greenery growing, and so
the deer are short as far asminerals, and we just don't see
that a lot on this side of themountains.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
So thinking about with the law well, black tail
aren't going to congregatebecause of food, Uh-huh.
But then if we do drop bait, dowe reverse that situation?
So is that why Washingtondecided to include black tail
and not exclude?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
black tail, so we'll get into.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, it's just okay.
Well, maybe that's what theywere going off of.
I don't know, but it was kindof funny because we also
mentioned this.
You and I drove up I don't knowif it was.
I don't know where we wereheaded, but we were.
There's one particular spotthat you've been wanting to get
into.
Oh, yeah, Up north.
But we looked and there's a bigag field next to it and there
(27:45):
were five or seven deer out inthis field and we were like, wow
, look at all those deer.
Now let's compare this you,having gone to college in the
Midwest in North Dakota, Yep,and you look out in the winter
and how many whitetail arecuddled together.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
So it's funny because I was a minister Anybody who's
come to the seminars I tend tomention that.
But I was a minister before Igot married and whatnot.
So I went to a Bible college inNorth Dakota and in the
wintertime we had chapel everyday at school.
And in the wintertime NorthDakota is brutally cold With the
(28:25):
wind chill.
It's 30 below 30, 40 below formonths and the wind is
constantly blowing.
So you know we'd have chapelevery day and they would
announce okay, so be carefulwhen you're driving out of town.
And they would say you know, ifyou're heading South and you're
heading to Aberdeen, be careful.
There's two miles out of townthere's a herd of 100-plus
(28:46):
whitetail herding up for thewinter, and the thing is is that
they would run across the road,the highway, and so inevitably
somebody would hit a deer andtotal out their car.
But they were always warning us, you know.
And yeah, there was some years,I mean I remember one.
There was a herd of over 200.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah.
Because it was just that's whatthey did in the winter time and
we were shocked to see five orseven yeah, yeah, that's not a
herd one, two oh my gosh,there's three there now.
Granted, I've only done twoyears.
I believe the most I've everhad on any of my sets is three
deer at one time.
Right, right, and I know you'veprobably had more, but I don't
(29:27):
think have you ever had morethan seven.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I've never had seven.
Yeah, I've never had seven, andI mean we might've had.
I can't remember Zach I thinkthe most I've ever had is, I
think, three.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, at one time I think Zach had more and I think
Chris.
At one time I think Zach hadmore and I think Chris at one
time.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Maybe one or two more , but yeah, it's nothing like
that.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah it's not an issue.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
We're not going to rant.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
So anyway.
So the third suggestion.
So removing attractants,increased food availability, but
reducing deer density.
So some states like they threedeer a day in Alabama.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, they issue more tags because of CWD to get the
infected deer out of there andthe causation or the result of
that is to if you lessen thatpopulation, then you have fewer
deer coming into contact.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
You know, it's just like if you live in a big
household and everybody'sleaving the house every day and
going to their prospectiveschool, work, whatever, there's
a bigger chance of somebodybringing a bug home and
everybody getting sick.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Same thing If there's more deer in an area.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Better chance that they're going to get sick, that
they're going to get sick, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Well, I don't think that Washington addressed this.
So I've been doing someresearch for another episode
that we're putting togetherabout looking at data and all
that for your season.
But so guys with a multi-seasontag have a higher harvest rate
than single season, whether it'sarchery, and there's not a big
difference between archery,modern or muzzleloader.
(30:59):
I think it's like each year, 3%difference in harvest rates and
it just literally every year.
It's always about 3%.
But there's a bump inmulti-season guys with the
multi-season tag and if you huntbecause you have more days, to
hunt is ultimately what it comesdown to.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
More time in the woods gives me more
opportunities, gives me a betterchance of filling that tag.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So my question would be if that's true, well, give us
our late muzzleloader seasonsback.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
There's a lot of Grant more opportunities at
harvesting deer.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Have everything a multi-season tag.
Now you have to hunt with thatweapon, but everybody gets a
multi-season Right.
Yeah, make them all.
Give us a better chance toharvest.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Kind of a thought, and see my.
My initial response to that isis that?
Well, man, our deer herdsaren't that, aren't that?
I mean, they're not white tailnumbers no how many deer per
square mile these are.
They're a fraction of whatwhite tail are yeah and I mean
just a fraction.
so when you start talking likethat, I'm instantly going our
deer herd can't sustain that.
But then I flip the coin overand go wait a minute here.
(32:08):
If our deer herd can't sustainthat, then that means we don't
have a lot of deer, then thatmeans they're not congregating.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
So it's consistency in logic is what I'm advocating
for here.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, it's frustrating because it's not
Again.
I go back to what we initiatedand I'm not trying to rant here.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I mean I not again I go back to what we initiated and
I'm not trying to rant here.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I mean, I got to be careful here, guys, because I
don't but to me it just it comesacross like this is an agenda
more than it is a science,because it's not making sense.
And I'm a pretty educatedperson.
I don't consider myself the,you know, the brightest guy, but
I'm I'm certainly not, you know, the, you know the brightest
guy, but I'm certainly not, youknow, the dullest crayon in the
box here.
And so it's like no, this doesnot follow the science, like
(32:50):
they say it does.
It does not.
The comprehension of whatthey're trying to tell us and
what is being displayed is notmeshing, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
It feels, and it might be because they discovered
it last year and they putimmediate response into place
and now this is kind of aknee-jerk, blanket approach and
maybe it gets refined in yearsgoing forward if we're active
about refining what it reallymeans.
(33:20):
So, talking about blacktail andmore specifically Western
Washington, the blacktail bigpicture, so we've kind of
covered this.
These deer don't congregate, soit's as Josie said during her
episode that blacktail are theposter child for not spreading
CWD.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Because of the attributes of this species.
Uh-huh, they just aren't Right.
No areas with blacktail havehad an occurrence of CWD, so
it's never been introduced viareal urines.
And maybe that's by sheer dumbluck, because some companies who
are unethical and creating badproduct may have shipped,
(34:03):
because those are made in areaswith.
Like Moccasin Joe is in Montanaor Utah Well, there are no
black tail there, but they'reshipping it out.
So obviously they'vetransported black tail into CWD
areas, correct?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
And I'm not implying that, that those have mingled
with the wild populations, butthere is a chance that that
could have happened.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
But either way you're looking at it, the threat of
CWD has been there and yet ithas not happened.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
California has had some CWD, but it's been way down
, like if you were driving toVegas from LA or that area.
Well, that's the only area inCalifornia that's ever had CWD,
which might have been a bad ifthey were using some sensor
lures.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Right, right right.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Maybe, and that's pure speculation on my part, I
don't know.
The WDFW does have a map thatshows everywhere that CWD has
been, and so you can see whereit concentrates and where it is
sparse and it's been like aone-off type of.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Thing.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
And it's an interesting map to look at, but
Blacktail huge food options.
So that's just it, except forif you're getting down into from
, like Roseburg South, where thefood becomes maybe a little
more scarce than water sourcesStill, pretty green, though
Still pretty than water sources.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Still pretty green, though Still pretty green down
there.
Still pretty green down there.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Everywhere north.
Tons of food, yeah, yeah, tonsof food sources.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
And the funny thing is you start talking CWD and
baiting and everybody's got anopinion.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
You know, and I read a post from a gentleman that
actually has quite a bit of pullat the state level, who was
adamantly against baiting, and Ithought to myself and expressed
it so in his post, made noqualms about it, and I started
reading back and forth andpeople replying to him that were
pro-baiting and both sides Ithought had good points, didn't
(36:00):
necessarily pay much attentionto how they expressed them, but
got the idea, you know got theidea, their point wise and stuff
, and I thought to myself,whether you're pro or against, I
mean, you're entitled to youropinion, but if this whole thing
is based on science, if we'regoing to run our state from a
science point of view, then I'msorry.
(36:21):
Gentlemen, you have to keep youropinion out, you have to keep
your feelings out of it.
It has to be.
You know, okay, what is goodscience, what is safe practice?
And if it's safe practice, thenit should be legal.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, you know what I mean, and we're going to talk
actually about having Josie backon to talk about good practice
baiting.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
I hope everybody listens to, just for the
education aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Because she knows her stuff, or from people outside
the area.
If you have the opportunity tobait, well, there are some
irresponsible things that youmight be doing.
Right and we want it to beethical, safe, responsible.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Yeah.
If you're against baiting, hey,that's fine, you're entitled to
that, yeah, and if you're forit, you're just as entitled to
it.
And I know that a lot of guys,especially as they get older,
they can't go out and hit thehills like they used to and
stuff like that.
This is just another avenue ifthey can, for them to continue
to enjoy the outdoors andhunting.
(37:21):
And I understand Not everybodyis that age.
Some guys do it and they'reperfectly physically able to do
it.
But that's the great thingabout America we have this
hunting right to enjoy theoutdoors.
And I think the guys that areagainst baiting because, well,
it's this and this and this,well it's like, well, no, that's
(37:41):
fine for you to have thatopinion, but that does not
justify making it legal.
If that is your opinion, let'slook at the science of it and
the flip side of the coin.
Just because it feels great andit's easier in some areas,
whether it's for baiting orwhatever you're doing, not
saying that baiting is easierbecause food does not make big
bucks daylight, yeah, butregardless, if you're probating
(38:05):
and and you're you're thinkingthat, well, we should be able to
do this.
Because this, feelings aside,let's get back to the science of
this.
We, everybody here, is afterthe same goal.
We all want our blacktail herdsto be healthy, we want them to
be prolific, we want them uh,you know to produce big bucks
and for everybody to get anopportunity.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah, and go uh wdfw and just read everything that
they've got on there about cwdright.
What are they basing theirdecisions on and is there
contradictory information?
And voice your opinion, yeah,and let them know yeah so the
last thing I was thinking aboutblacktail and it's something
that you talk about in the classis big bucks only leave their
(38:46):
core area brief times per year.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Right.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
When they're in velvet for a while, they'll be
more out in the open, correct,and during the rut.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Other than that, they stay in that real thick core
area.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
And solitary.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Very much yeah, very much, yeah, very much.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
So an interesting thing is they said that bucks
were twice as likely as does todevelop CWD and it was more
likely either, I believe, it wasthe real young deer or the real
old mature bucks.
But again going to whitetail,so whitetail bucks much bigger
range.
Again going to whitetail, sowhitetail bucks, much bigger
(39:28):
range.
They're not necessarily hangingout in a core area for 90% of
their life Right.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
They'll travel seven to 10 miles to find a Doanestrus
.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
So there you go.
Are they contracting CWD?
Because they will travel mileslooking for Doanestrus and
they're coming into more contactwith deer and they're more of a
herd animal, things like that.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
So thinking about especially these big
black-tailed bucks, if CWD wereprevalent, and I mean we're
getting into smaller ranges.
There's a lot of questions,but-.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
You would think it would wipe out our herds because
of that, because you'recongregating herds into smaller
areas.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
But it's these big bucks.
Would you see a difference inblack-tailed big old, mature
bucks versus white-tailed?
Because they behave muchdifferently, right, right.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Small range.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
They're hiding by themselves for a big part of the
year and they'll only come intotheir range and only breed the
deer in their range.
They're not going to go lookingfor her if she's 10 miles away.
They'll go look if she's aquarter mile away so it can
consolidate outbreaks of CWD.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
It would be much easier to quarantine that area
because of that.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
But I'm actually thinking that if you're going to
see higher numbers, my guess isyou would see a higher rate of
does and young bucks than old,mature bucks, because they're
the ones out moving around a lotmore.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
More.
Yeah, they're covering morearea in that range.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
That's my guess, 52-acre range, knowing the
difference in buck behavior.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Well, and it's funny because you say that, my mind
goes to, because you mentionedthat big bucks are solitude.
More big bucks are killed bycats than does, because the does
tend to hang out with you know,they have the yearling, or the
fawn, or deer will run together.
Yeah Right, and so there's moreears, more eyes, more noses,
but big bucks, which aresolitary, like we just said, get
(41:31):
killed by cats more oftenbecause, it's one set of ears,
one set of eyes and one nosewhich is why they might be
around elk yes, at times they'llfollow elk herds, I've noticed.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah, yeah but if that causes them to leave, they
won't leave the range to followthe elk herds.
No, they won't necessarilyleave their core area to go
follow elk herds, but if the elkare there they'll hang out
because at that particularmoment yeah, I know yeah
increases their but it's kind ofa contradiction to say that
they're solitary and then turnaround and tell us well, they
(42:05):
heard up.
Yeah.
So and it all goes back to Ibelieve a lot of these decisions
were based off of white tailand mule deer behavior, not
black tail.
So if I drop apples for a deerthat none of their species has
ever developed CWD, I'm notgoing to give them CWD.
If any of their species hasever developed CWD, I'm not
(42:26):
going to give them CWD.
The only way is if Itransported a carcass or
something contaminated into thatarea that's how it could be
spread.
Or if I had a product donestrisbuck urine, one of those that
was contaminated if I sourced itfrom an unethical company.
So and that's really in my mind, that's where it gets back to
(42:48):
is, I think for this year, youknow, we're gonna pivot, we're
gonna adapt, but there needs tobe some refinement oh yeah, as
far as, uh, the blacktail coachis concerned, I mean we're just
gonna do like the marines, we'regonna adapt and and overcome
yeah, you know and like 90 ofour system is based on the whole
sense yeah you know, like Isaid that, if you've been to a
(43:11):
seminar, you understand whereI'm coming from and what I'm
saying.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
That other 10, if you wanted to bait, you could, and
that's fine.
It was legal and I'm not goingto stop guys from doing what
they do, but it was sense.
I've used synthetics.
I've had just as good luck withsynthetics as I had with 100%
pure urines and stuff.
So I think we're going to befine.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Yeah, find the habitat and the deer will be
there.
And figure out how to get themto daylight.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
And baiting is a very , very small portion of that
whole equation.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
So would have preferred they kept going, but
well-dapped.
So, just like we know all ofyou well, longer episode today.
Hope you enjoyed it and we willsee you all next week.
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast.
This is Aaron and I'm Dave, soa lot of guys have been asking
us about a CWD update or aresponse to the news for the
last month and we've wanted towait till it was finally in
print before creating an episodebefore we responded.
(00:21):
So I wanted to start off byreading the news.
Statewide prohibitions are nowin place for baiting and feeding
deer elk or moose.
It is unlawful to hunt for deerelk or moose using any type of
bait placed exposed, deposited,distributed, scattered or
otherwise used for the purposeof attracting these species with
(00:44):
the intent to hunt them.
Bait, in quotation marks, isany substance that could serve
as a lure, food or attractionfor deer elk or moose, including
natural or synthetic scentsthat contain or are derived from
cervid, urine or glandularextracts.
Exceptions hunting on or overthe following is not considered
(01:08):
an unlawful use of bait whilehunting deer elk or moose
Locally common agriculture andranching practices, including
salt or mineral distribution andfeeding Food that is available
from undisturbed, wild,volunteer or planted vegetation,
including fruit trees, orchards, vineyards and food plots.
(01:29):
Synthetic scents or lures thatdo not contain or are derived
from cervid, urine or glandularextracts.
Naturally occurring mineraldeposits or as authorized by a
department issued permit issuedto address a management
objective.
Exceptions do not includeaccidental or intentional spills
(01:50):
, dumping or storage ofagricultural produce, feed or
bait.
It is also unlawful to feeddeer, elk or moose or to allow
food to be placed to feed otherwildlife that causes deer, elk
or moose to congregate.
Wildlife that causes deer, elkor moose to congregate.
This restriction does not applyto agricultural practices such
as crop production, harvest oranimal husbandry.
So that's it.
(02:11):
That is what they put into theregs and so that is what we're
going to respond to and talkabout and kind of where do we go
from here?
So there's a lot on the websiteand I recommend everybody going
on to WDFW and looking ateverything they have related to
CWD and how they reached thisdecision.
You can find the presentationby biologists, which is what
(02:35):
they used when they presented itto the director and they also
used they have on the website avideo series from MSU,
mississippi State University,deer Lab.
So if you go to YouTube andtype in MSU Deer Lab, you'll
have a series of videos talkingabout CWD.
They're all like two minuteslong, but it's a lot of what
(02:57):
they did is based off of that.
So some things that they didn'tdo that would make sense but
they didn't and we'll get ontothat.
Our goal and this I was tellingDave now we want to educate.
We're not going to rant, butthere might be a little bit of
ranting about this Because Ithink a lot of us are upset that
(03:17):
maybe that it was knee-jerk.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I would say yeah it seems more like an agenda than
it does a science-based move tome.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Now, having gone through everything that they
have on the website, I thinkthat they actually.
I think there is some agendabehind what some of the people
did some commissioners but a lotof it is science-based.
But the problem I found andthis is the biggest issue I had
(03:47):
with it is that it'sscience-based off of whitetail
and mule deer behavior, notblacktail.
And I don't know about if RockyMountain elk and Roosevelt elk
if there's a big difference, butI do know Rocky Mountain or
Roosevelt elk do herd up as well.
They're maybe not as big ofherds as Rocky Mountain elk, but
(04:09):
they do herd in bigger herds.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
But as far as blacktail are concerned they're
very different species and we'llget into that more in a little
bit.
But that was kind of my thoughtwas that was not the best
science to do with a blanket.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And for those listeners that don't know, aaron
and I spend a lot of time.
We read a lot of articles.
I watch a lot of interviews.
Aaron watches, I mean, we'reconstantly and I've been doing
this for years, for decades, andI've been doing this for years,
for decades, and so you knowall of the studies that we've
(04:53):
done on the CWD and bringing onJosie and her expertise that she
brought forward and everything,and multiple interviews that
I've watched with Dr Deere, daveKroll and other gentlemen that
are pretty high up in this fieldas far as their exposure to the
public as well as, like justtoday, I just and I told you
this, aaron I posted aninterview with Lee Kozlowski,
lee and Tiffany the crush wherethey were asking him about CWD
(05:15):
and his opinion was that it'sjust a big scam.
I believe Dr Deere said thesame thing that everything that
they've done so far with theprohibiting of baiting and a lot
of the stuff in that regardthat they've done has really not
done a single thing to helpwith any prevention.
(05:36):
And they're all talkingwhitetail, and whitetail very
much heard up.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, and I think or I remember Josie, dr Josie Rose,
when she was on here shebrought up the point that the
most effective that they foundup to this point is getting
those animals out of thepopulation.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
And that interview that I posted this morning and,
guys, that was on my ownpersonal Facebook page.
So let's go ahead and blow thatup.
Dave Riley R-I-L-E-Y.
Let's make me famous that way10,000 friends to any way, shape
(06:21):
or form.
As far as the spread orcontainment of that disease, cwd
, with what they've done so farand as far as he's concerned and
I know several otherspecialists and biologists in
this area would recommendallowing the baiting and would
encourage that to simply getthese animals out of the herd.
(06:42):
To get them out of there.
Not just get them out of theherd, but get them out of the
woods, so those prions are notleft out there anymore.
Get them.
I'm sorry and it seems cruel tosay this to some people and I
apologize if this hurts yourfeelings, but the reality the
harsh reality is is that we needto get them out of the herd and
they need to be dealt withappropriately, whether it's
(07:04):
incineration or whatever, but toget those prions out of there
so that we can have healthy deerherds.
Saying all of that, there hasnever been a case of CWD in
blacktail.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, and we'll get into those specifics about
blacktail towards the end,towards the end the.
And so I not necessarily toplay uh, devil's advocate, but
one of the concerns with, andwhy they passed the no baiting
to hurt up is it as it isgrowing in the body and mutating
(07:39):
the prions that are within thebody.
It can take up to a year and ahalf for them to show signs.
So that is the biggest reasonwhy they aren't using just the.
Harvest them out, that is themost effective, but they're
trying to do something to getahead of even that Right.
(07:59):
But the problem is, is it's 15months or a year and a half
right around there where this isgrowing?
Well, if, if they're notshowing any sign right, you had
mentioned michigan uh tests, youhave to have every animal every
, every, every animal harvestedwhere don't?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
that doesn't matter where you're at in the state has
to hit a checkpoint, you haveto have it tested.
Nothing can go out of thatstate as far as is.
You get an animal there, it'sgoing to stay there.
But, that being said, okay.
So why couldn't we have donethat?
Other states have taken and theunits where they have detected
CWD, they have placed therestrictions on those units
(08:40):
alone.
I go back to the interview andyou'll hear me say this quite a
bit.
I think this episode that LeeKozlowski gave and he was saying
and I mentioned this to you,aaron, and I'm not sure how much
truth there is to this, but hewas saying he doesn't understand
what the big deal is.
He says there's a bigger threatfrom EHD than there is from Cwd
(09:03):
.
Ehd will wipe out a herd in in amatter of hours yeah you know,
whereas cwd over time, you know,does affect the herd and it is
a very painful thing to watch tosee a deer go through.
That.
I get that, I absolutely getthat.
But his, one of his points wasit's not harmful to humans.
And again I go back to if weget those animals harvested and
(09:27):
we went to a testing location,if we had checkpoints where
these things have to be testedand you were telling me that
they have a test, that is reallyquick.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
It's quick and I think that actually was the
RT-QUIC R-T-Q-U-I-C.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
And.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
I meant to look that up with the exact what it stood
for, but it is accurate.
It is the testing that they donow for CWD.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
So if that were the case and we had checkpoints and
everybody who harvested ananimal stopped at that
checkpoint and got their deertested, and if it tested
positive, I don't know too manypeople that would not give up
their animal if they thoughtthey were going to be harmed by
CWD.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, now, having watched those videos, they
referenced some studies becausethey were trying to determine so
, if a human eats mad cow beinga similar prion disease in cows
eats mad cow being a similarprion disease in cows bovines.
(10:32):
But if a human eats a cowinfected with mad cow they can
contract it.
Correct the human version, theJakob-Kruitzfeld disease.
Now, josie referenced thatthere were a couple people who
ate tainted meat in Texas whocame down with the Jakob
Krutzfeld, but they couldn'tfind a direct correlation or
causation.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And between venison or beef.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
They ate some tainted venison and they developed that
.
They've also done animalstudies.
They did chimps and rats andpigs and one other animal and
they referenced that in thoseMSU Deer Lab videos and some of
the animals that they fedtainted meat to came down with a
version of a prion disease andsome of them didn't.
(11:16):
So as of right now it'sinconclusive.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
And, like I said, I don't know that.
I agree with Lee Kozlowski onthat.
It's not harmful to humans, butI still fall back on the
premise that if we hadcheckpoints and they were tested
, who wouldn't give it up?
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, I mean, if I'm in eastern Washington, I would
probably have my deer tested.
I wouldn't want to risk thatthat it's not a risk worth
taking right and you know Iwould be glad I pulled one out
of the right out of the wild.
But yeah, I wouldn't want to,necessarily I wouldn't want to
eat the thing so and withanything.
(11:56):
Make sure that you're up to date, especially if you're over in
those counties.
You're up to date withtransportation laws, having
checks done all of that.
Make sure you're really up todate with any new regulations
regarding that.
Right.
So going back to, because a lotof guys have asked how we're
adapting, now I would say a bigaspect of this system and what
(12:20):
I've learned is hunting is aboutadapting your methods and
pivoting when you need to.
And this is a different type ofadapting and pivoting than
we've done in the past, where itmight be changing your set
doing this, but you're alwaysneeding to adjust.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So people are asking okay, well, you talk about a lot
of sense and a lot of baiting,what are you doing now?
And so, well, let's talk aboutthis.
What are we doing now?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
We're closing the doors.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yep, we're done.
No, we're not so syntheticscents.
If and this is one of thethings that from everything that
I researched if you are an area, if you listen to this, this
podcast, maybe you're not inwhere you're not hunting
blacktail, but for some reasonyou like the way dave and I talk
, if you're still able to usereal urine-based and gland-based
(13:14):
pheromones, here's what youshould be looking for.
So, companies that participaterhsa, the responsible hunting
scent, so RHSA certified, andthey'll say on the packaging,
the RT I'll just call it RTquick, but it's RT-QUIC testing
Between those.
(13:34):
They have to test a third oftheir herds or 20 or 30% of
their herd, entire herd, everyyear and every three years I
believe it's 100% testing.
I was looking at Conquest'swebsite so Conquest Sense they
said the 11.
Companies that are all part ofthis association right now have
(13:56):
never had a CWD testing.
A lot of really goodinformation on the Congress.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
They've never had a positive test.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Test for CWD Correct, correct In any of their deer.
And that is even before, Ithink, they even started all of
this.
So look for those, becausethose are ethical.
I would say that they'reethical responsible companies
and those are who we should besupporting.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, they're ahead of the game.
They're trying to get in frontof this.
They're going to be the onesthat I mean, because this is
going to be required by everycompany here in no time.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, Conquest and Tink's being a couple of those
companies that have that stampon their products.
I'm sure there are others.
Like Conquest said, there were11 on their website.
I don't know what the othersare, but those are the ones that
we've used their products inthe past.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Right, tinks is our sponsor, but both of these
companies make synthetics, andso to touch on that real quick
here, aaron, read the regulation, the change in the regulation.
It is kind of confusing becauseit kind of makes it sound like
synthetics are not legal.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
But they are, synthetics are legal yeah okay,
synthetic scents and attractantsare legal you can't use them if
they're derived from real urineor gland excretions, which is
well, yeah, it wouldn't besynthetic.
So I don't know, maybe there'ssomething out there where it's
not the case.
So we're going to syntheticsand some of them when we've
(15:22):
talked about is donestrous buckurine, bedding pheromone, and we
talked about the Hoda accentrope, which is an ocular gland,
correct, those are the four thatwe've pretty much used.
Hot Sense and Conquest bothmake for the bedding pheromone.
They make a synthetic versionof that.
(15:44):
Hot Sense actually does blacktail synthetics, where Conquest
is all white tail synthetics.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Not that it makes a difference.
I've been using tinks for thelongest time.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
It's all white tail difference.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah, I've been using tinks for the longest time and
it's all white.
Yeah, and and on, and, in allhonesty, I've cycled real urine
and synthetics, uh, on my hunts.
Not purposely, as far as thatwas my intention.
It was well the.
You know the store is out ofwhat I need.
I'm in a pinch, so no, they gotsynthetics and I've never
noticed a difference.
They work just as well.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, so we have to switch now to synthetics.
Okay, which companies?
You know who's putting in theeffort to create a good
synthetic?
So one of the things I cameacross is and I can't remember
the name of the company, butthey said that some companies
will put ammonia, mix it withwater, put in a little bit of
like food coloring and call itsynthetic.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Oh, what company was that?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
So you want to make sure that you're getting a
company that's reliable withtheir synthetics.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Because if you put something like that down you
will blow the deer out of thearea.
But Conquest and Tinks areprobably the ones that we're
going to I would say pivot to,and Hot Scentz, I would think,
because they have the Blacktailversion just to try them out,
and then next year at some pointwe'll give you an update of the
outcome.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Hopefully we've got a lot of gripping grins to pitch,
to show you, to demonstrate theoutcome.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
And, like I said, the Hodag, which isn't a real, real
I would say critical piece.
It's something extra that weput out there, Right right.
They make a synthetic versionof that.
So here's the thing that I wasthinking about, that and you can
tell me what you think.
The idea behind that is deercome in and they rub their
ocular gland onto this rope.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
So if the idea is that they're not sharing bodily,
I'm laughing already because ifyou guys can see his face and
how he's trying to present thiswithout making it sound like
this is retarded- yeah, anyway,okay, they make it synthetic,
which means we can use it.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
But as far as I would say to everybody, follow your
conscience.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
It's tough because the whole premise of that scent
rope is for them to put theirscent on it, yeah.
And it's like well, that's whatthey're trying to avoid.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Now I would say, if you're hunting mule deer or
whitetail and you're usingsomething like if you're in the
CWD area, I would give it up.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Now, being in a black tail area, I'm thinking, okay,
I'm probably still going to usethat, because I don't think
there's any chance of themgetting CWD from it.
Like zero chance.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
So I think I could still, I still feel okay using
it.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
The law.
I'm not going to rant on it,but it just seems like it's
written so that there are someareas that are a little vague on
on how a person is supposed to,or how a person can react, or
or utilize or interpret.
Yeah, and I'm like okay, doesthat mean we're being told one
thing and then told the exactopposite in the next paragraph?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
yeah, I would say that covers the sense.
I mean, uh, we're, that's whatwe're pivoting.
Yeah, we're going to,absolutely yeah, and the system
is mostly scent based guys Imean that's, you don't have to
use any kind of bait.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It was just something that was mentioned.
It, if you are a person thatwants to use it, you can, but it
was simply the sense is whatbrings the bucks around.
That's what's bringing thesebig bucks in.
That's what's causing them tocome back.
I explain it.
We talk about the first rut,the second rut.
The reason those bucks arecoming in is because they're
(19:28):
looking and you can keep themcoming back.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
The best we could hope for was the doe coming in
for the bait and a buck beinghot on a big buck, which is what
happened to me.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, twice.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, and so it is another effective tool in the
toolbox.
But the box is full of tools.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
And so you don't have that one specific tool, but you
still got a bunch of tools toget the job done.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, so baiting attractants and minerals?
Here is because they talk aboutfood plots and apple trees and
things like that, and you're notgoing to get in trouble for
having apple trees.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Again, I go back to what I said.
It's kind of vague.
I mean one sentence we're toldwe can't.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
The other sense we're told we can yeah, now I'm
taking it as no on any baitingon any right attractants there.
There might be a way of gettingsome food smell in the area
where they don't have access toit and where they might not like
if you were to go pour, I don'tknow, some sort of liquid deer
(20:35):
candy on the ground, they'restill potentially going to lick
that up.
Correct?
It means if multiple deer, theycould be swapping spit.
So then that creates apotential risk.
Now, if it doesn't create asituation where they can't find
the food, are you okay?
They leave, but then they stillsmell the food.
(20:57):
So maybe they come back Becausethey smell something that is
intriguing them.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I mean, it's just it's.
I don't want to say that it'spoorly written, I just want to
say that it's vague.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
There are some areas where I have questions.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Maybe we'll get them answered as we get into this.
Yeah, and we had, in this brieftime since they came up with
this decision, we had three newpeople added to the commission,
the Washington State GameCommission.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
They all three seem to be very pro fishing hunting,
so we might have and I don'tknow who they replace and, and,
in all honesty, we've watchedother states reverse their
stance on baiting yeah, goingfrom a complete prohibition to,
uh, reversing that completelyand allowing it again and
(21:49):
actually encouraging it to getsick animals out but yeah
whether we see that or not, isis yet to, or will they refine
it in the future?
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, I'm going to say kind of the conclusion I
came to is the government hasunlimited resources to come
after you if they think thatthey need or want to come after
you.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
And we've watched that.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Do you have unlimited resources to defend yourself?
If you don't, I would suggesterring on the side of caution,
and that is going to be ourstance for bait, minerals and
attractants.
I don't have unlimitedresources to defend myself
against an accusation and, as Iinterpret this regulation, I'm
(22:31):
going to err on the side ofcaution.
And now, if there's a way thatit can be adapted, I will
probably try to.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
but I'm going to go with it for now.
Oh, absolutely.
And you know, to get thisreversed.
If that's what you're wanting,well, start a petition, start
getting people together, gettingsignatures and guys, you know
that stuff happens.
It starts with one person.
It's got to start with somebody, you know.
If that's what you're wanting,if you're wanting and it's not
(22:58):
just if you're upset about thebaiting thing, it's not just
that, it's the same with anypart of our.
They're regulating the bear.
Now, as far as they're doingjust like they're doing with
cougar, you have a quota forcertain areas, you know.
And it's like well, come on,you know, Somebody's under the
delusion that there's fewer bearout there than there's ever
been.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And it's like that's not even remotely close.
Unless that quote is harvest acrapload.
It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
And it's just like you've got to be kidding me.
Well, we could use houndhunting or baiting back in that
area, but it starts withpetition.
It starts with us stopseparating ourselves.
As far as I'm a rifle hunter,I'm a muzzleloader or I'm an
archer, no, you're anoutdoorsman, you're an outdoors
person.
We're all on the same team.
We need to start acting like it.
Yeah, we're all part of thesame family here, guys, and the
(23:49):
only way to overcome this stuffand to get some of these laws
back, these rights back, is byworking together.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Okay, so, going back to those videos that I watched,
they had three suggestions andthis is put together by doctor,
veterinarians, so people who canspeak authoritatively on this.
They made three suggestions forlowering the spread of CWD.
One of them remove attractantsand washing in.
This is why there's no baiting,minerals or attractants.
(24:19):
That is the principle that theyare following there.
Another one which wasinteresting but this goes back
to talking about whitetail muledeer is increase food
availability, so creating foodplots for deer, which seems
counterintuitive Right right.
But when you think of thehabitat that those deer are
(24:39):
running around in, food is alittle more scarce, especially
when you go into thinking about,maybe, the Midwest, which is
where this is most prevalent.
The Midwest Well, it's not anissue for blacktail.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, there's tons of food.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Acreage.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Tons of acreage and I get the whitetail.
What they're trying to do issupply a food source that isn't
focused into a little area, butif it's an acre to two acres,
that's plenty of room for deerto spread out and feed.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
And that's the key is to spread out and feed.
Well, blacktail don't have thatproblem.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, well, blacktail , don't have that problem.
Yeah yeah, we've got foodeverywhere and I would say that
we have a few deer who come into our sets, and 80% of the
apples are probably eaten byfour deer or less.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And it's usually a spike.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
And it's usually a spike.
I had a spike, I had a two bythree and then I had a doe and a
yearling Maybe a couple does.
That came in more than I wouldsay three times or four times
they would come in.
They were the ones eating allthe apples, and that was more
lazy behavior on the animal'spart.
(25:52):
Right, right, instead ofwalking around three miles and
nibble here, nibble there, justgo over there and eat, because
there's a pile of food overthere.
But it's not an issue.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
No, your big mature bucks.
They're not interested in that.
They're interested in the.
Does you know?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
And if they're leaving during the rut to come
find those does well.
If they're not leaving, they'rehanging out and they'll eat
whatever they can find.
That's in that thick densehabitat yeah they're not.
Hey, there's some apples overthere, I'm gonna go eat those.
No, those are in an unsafe spot.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Forget it yeah well and that's the thing.
They didn't get big by beingstupid.
Yeah, you know.
And and again there's.
There is a large food sourceeverywhere yeah in the northwest
.
I mean it's a rainforest and,like antler, growth is very
seldom does that.
We see a downturn in that.
As far as okay.
(26:47):
So we hit a drought.
This area is low in mineralsbecause there hasn't been much
rainfall, and so there's not alot of greenery growing, and so
the deer are short as far asminerals, and we just don't see
that a lot on this side of themountains.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
So thinking about with the law well, black tail
aren't going to congregatebecause of food, Uh-huh.
But then if we do drop bait, dowe reverse that situation?
So is that why Washingtondecided to include black tail
and not exclude?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
black tail, so we'll get into.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, it's just okay.
Well, maybe that's what theywere going off of.
I don't know, but it was kindof funny because we also
mentioned this.
You and I drove up I don't knowif it was.
I don't know where we wereheaded, but we were.
There's one particular spotthat you've been wanting to get
into.
Oh, yeah, Up north.
But we looked and there's a bigag field next to it and there
(27:45):
were five or seven deer out inthis field and we were like, wow
, look at all those deer.
Now let's compare this you,having gone to college in the
Midwest in North Dakota, Yep,and you look out in the winter
and how many whitetail arecuddled together.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
So it's funny because I was a minister Anybody who's
come to the seminars I tend tomention that.
But I was a minister before Igot married and whatnot.
So I went to a Bible college inNorth Dakota and in the
wintertime we had chapel everyday at school.
And in the wintertime NorthDakota is brutally cold With the
(28:25):
wind chill.
It's 30 below 30, 40 below formonths and the wind is
constantly blowing.
So you know we'd have chapelevery day and they would
announce okay, so be carefulwhen you're driving out of town.
And they would say you know, ifyou're heading South and you're
heading to Aberdeen, be careful.
There's two miles out of townthere's a herd of 100-plus
(28:46):
whitetail herding up for thewinter, and the thing is is that
they would run across the road,the highway, and so inevitably
somebody would hit a deer andtotal out their car.
But they were always warning us, you know.
And yeah, there was some years,I mean I remember one.
There was a herd of over 200.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah.
Because it was just that's whatthey did in the winter time and
we were shocked to see five orseven yeah, yeah, that's not a
herd one, two oh my gosh,there's three there now.
Granted, I've only done twoyears.
I believe the most I've everhad on any of my sets is three
deer at one time.
Right, right, and I know you'veprobably had more, but I don't
(29:27):
think have you ever had morethan seven.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I've never had seven.
Yeah, I've never had seven, andI mean we might've had.
I can't remember Zach I thinkthe most I've ever had is, I
think, three.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, at one time I think Zach had more and I think
Chris.
At one time I think Zach hadmore and I think Chris at one
time.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Maybe one or two more , but yeah, it's nothing like
that.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah it's not an issue.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
We're not going to rant.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
So anyway.
So the third suggestion.
So removing attractants,increased food availability, but
reducing deer density.
So some states like they threedeer a day in Alabama.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, they issue more tags because of CWD to get the
infected deer out of there andthe causation or the result of
that is to if you lessen thatpopulation, then you have fewer
deer coming into contact.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
You know, it's just like if you live in a big
household and everybody'sleaving the house every day and
going to their prospectiveschool, work, whatever, there's
a bigger chance of somebodybringing a bug home and
everybody getting sick.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Same thing If there's more deer in an area.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Better chance that they're going to get sick, that
they're going to get sick, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Well, I don't think that Washington addressed this.
So I've been doing someresearch for another episode
that we're putting togetherabout looking at data and all
that for your season.
But so guys with a multi-seasontag have a higher harvest rate
than single season, whether it'sarchery, and there's not a big
difference between archery,modern or muzzleloader.
(30:59):
I think it's like each year, 3%difference in harvest rates and
it just literally every year.
It's always about 3%.
But there's a bump inmulti-season guys with the
multi-season tag and if you huntbecause you have more days, to
hunt is ultimately what it comesdown to.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
More time in the woods gives me more
opportunities, gives me a betterchance of filling that tag.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So my question would be if that's true, well, give us
our late muzzleloader seasonsback.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
There's a lot of Grant more opportunities at
harvesting deer.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Have everything a multi-season tag.
Now you have to hunt with thatweapon, but everybody gets a
multi-season Right.
Yeah, make them all.
Give us a better chance toharvest.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Kind of a thought, and see my.
My initial response to that isis that?
Well, man, our deer herdsaren't that, aren't that?
I mean, they're not white tailnumbers no how many deer per
square mile these are.
They're a fraction of whatwhite tail are yeah and I mean
just a fraction.
so when you start talking likethat, I'm instantly going our
deer herd can't sustain that.
But then I flip the coin overand go wait a minute here.
(32:08):
If our deer herd can't sustainthat, then that means we don't
have a lot of deer, then thatmeans they're not congregating.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
So it's consistency in logic is what I'm advocating
for here.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, it's frustrating because it's not
Again.
I go back to what we initiatedand I'm not trying to rant here.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I mean I not again I go back to what we initiated and
I'm not trying to rant here.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I mean, I got to be careful here, guys, because I
don't but to me it just it comesacross like this is an agenda
more than it is a science,because it's not making sense.
And I'm a pretty educatedperson.
I don't consider myself the,you know, the brightest guy, but
I'm I'm certainly not, you know, the, you know the brightest
guy, but I'm certainly not, youknow, the dullest crayon in the
box here.
And so it's like no, this doesnot follow the science, like
(32:50):
they say it does.
It does not.
The comprehension of whatthey're trying to tell us and
what is being displayed is notmeshing, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
It feels, and it might be because they discovered
it last year and they putimmediate response into place
and now this is kind of aknee-jerk, blanket approach and
maybe it gets refined in yearsgoing forward if we're active
about refining what it reallymeans.
(33:20):
So, talking about blacktail andmore specifically Western
Washington, the blacktail bigpicture, so we've kind of
covered this.
These deer don't congregate, soit's as Josie said during her
episode that blacktail are theposter child for not spreading
CWD.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Because of the attributes of this species.
Uh-huh, they just aren't Right.
No areas with blacktail havehad an occurrence of CWD, so
it's never been introduced viareal urines.
And maybe that's by sheer dumbluck, because some companies who
are unethical and creating badproduct may have shipped,
(34:03):
because those are made in areaswith.
Like Moccasin Joe is in Montanaor Utah Well, there are no
black tail there, but they'reshipping it out.
So obviously they'vetransported black tail into CWD
areas, correct?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
And I'm not implying that, that those have mingled
with the wild populations, butthere is a chance that that
could have happened.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
But either way you're looking at it, the threat of
CWD has been there and yet ithas not happened.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
California has had some CWD, but it's been way down
, like if you were driving toVegas from LA or that area.
Well, that's the only area inCalifornia that's ever had CWD,
which might have been a bad ifthey were using some sensor
lures.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Right, right right.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Maybe, and that's pure speculation on my part, I
don't know.
The WDFW does have a map thatshows everywhere that CWD has
been, and so you can see whereit concentrates and where it is
sparse and it's been like aone-off type of.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Thing.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
And it's an interesting map to look at, but
Blacktail huge food options.
So that's just it, except forif you're getting down into from
, like Roseburg South, where thefood becomes maybe a little
more scarce than water sourcesStill, pretty green, though
Still pretty than water sources.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Still pretty green, though Still pretty green down
there.
Still pretty green down there.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Everywhere north.
Tons of food, yeah, yeah, tonsof food sources.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
And the funny thing is you start talking CWD and
baiting and everybody's got anopinion.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
You know, and I read a post from a gentleman that
actually has quite a bit of pullat the state level, who was
adamantly against baiting, and Ithought to myself and expressed
it so in his post, made noqualms about it, and I started
reading back and forth andpeople replying to him that were
pro-baiting and both sides Ithought had good points, didn't
(36:00):
necessarily pay much attentionto how they expressed them, but
got the idea, you know got theidea, their point wise and stuff
, and I thought to myself,whether you're pro or against, I
mean, you're entitled to youropinion, but if this whole thing
is based on science, if we'regoing to run our state from a
science point of view, then I'msorry.
(36:21):
Gentlemen, you have to keep youropinion out, you have to keep
your feelings out of it.
It has to be.
You know, okay, what is goodscience, what is safe practice?
And if it's safe practice, thenit should be legal.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, you know what I mean, and we're going to talk
actually about having Josie backon to talk about good practice
baiting.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
I hope everybody listens to, just for the
education aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Because she knows her stuff, or from people outside
the area.
If you have the opportunity tobait, well, there are some
irresponsible things that youmight be doing.
Right and we want it to beethical, safe, responsible.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Yeah.
If you're against baiting, hey,that's fine, you're entitled to
that, yeah, and if you're forit, you're just as entitled to
it.
And I know that a lot of guys,especially as they get older,
they can't go out and hit thehills like they used to and
stuff like that.
This is just another avenue ifthey can, for them to continue
to enjoy the outdoors andhunting.
(37:21):
And I understand Not everybodyis that age.
Some guys do it and they'reperfectly physically able to do
it.
But that's the great thingabout America we have this
hunting right to enjoy theoutdoors.
And I think the guys that areagainst baiting because, well,
it's this and this and this,well it's like, well, no, that's
(37:41):
fine for you to have thatopinion, but that does not
justify making it legal.
If that is your opinion, let'slook at the science of it and
the flip side of the coin.
Just because it feels great andit's easier in some areas,
whether it's for baiting orwhatever you're doing, not
saying that baiting is easierbecause food does not make big
bucks daylight, yeah, butregardless, if you're probating
(38:05):
and and you're you're thinkingthat, well, we should be able to
do this.
Because this, feelings aside,let's get back to the science of
this.
We, everybody here, is afterthe same goal.
We all want our blacktail herdsto be healthy, we want them to
be prolific, we want them uh,you know to produce big bucks
and for everybody to get anopportunity.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah, and go uh wdfw and just read everything that
they've got on there about cwdright.
What are they basing theirdecisions on and is there
contradictory information?
And voice your opinion, yeah,and let them know yeah so the
last thing I was thinking aboutblacktail and it's something
that you talk about in the classis big bucks only leave their
(38:46):
core area brief times per year.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Right.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
When they're in velvet for a while, they'll be
more out in the open, correct,and during the rut.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Other than that, they stay in that real thick core
area.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
And solitary.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Very much yeah, very much, yeah, very much.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
So an interesting thing is they said that bucks
were twice as likely as does todevelop CWD and it was more
likely either, I believe, it wasthe real young deer or the real
old mature bucks.
But again going to whitetail,so whitetail bucks much bigger
range.
Again going to whitetail, sowhitetail bucks, much bigger
(39:28):
range.
They're not necessarily hangingout in a core area for 90% of
their life Right.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
They'll travel seven to 10 miles to find a Doanestrus
.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
So there you go.
Are they contracting CWD?
Because they will travel mileslooking for Doanestrus and
they're coming into more contactwith deer and they're more of a
herd animal, things like that.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
So thinking about especially these big
black-tailed bucks, if CWD wereprevalent, and I mean we're
getting into smaller ranges.
There's a lot of questions,but-.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
You would think it would wipe out our herds because
of that, because you'recongregating herds into smaller
areas.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
But it's these big bucks.
Would you see a difference inblack-tailed big old, mature
bucks versus white-tailed?
Because they behave muchdifferently, right, right.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Small range.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
They're hiding by themselves for a big part of the
year and they'll only come intotheir range and only breed the
deer in their range.
They're not going to go lookingfor her if she's 10 miles away.
They'll go look if she's aquarter mile away so it can
consolidate outbreaks of CWD.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
It would be much easier to quarantine that area
because of that.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
But I'm actually thinking that if you're going to
see higher numbers, my guess isyou would see a higher rate of
does and young bucks than old,mature bucks, because they're
the ones out moving around a lotmore.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
More.
Yeah, they're covering morearea in that range.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
That's my guess, 52-acre range, knowing the
difference in buck behavior.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Well, and it's funny because you say that, my mind
goes to, because you mentionedthat big bucks are solitude.
More big bucks are killed bycats than does, because the does
tend to hang out with you know,they have the yearling, or the
fawn, or deer will run together.
Yeah Right, and so there's moreears, more eyes, more noses,
but big bucks, which aresolitary, like we just said, get
(41:31):
killed by cats more oftenbecause, it's one set of ears,
one set of eyes and one nosewhich is why they might be
around elk yes, at times they'llfollow elk herds, I've noticed.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah, yeah but if that causes them to leave, they
won't leave the range to followthe elk herds.
No, they won't necessarilyleave their core area to go
follow elk herds, but if the elkare there they'll hang out
because at that particularmoment yeah, I know yeah
increases their but it's kind ofa contradiction to say that
they're solitary and then turnaround and tell us well, they
(42:05):
heard up.
Yeah.
So and it all goes back to Ibelieve a lot of these decisions
were based off of white tailand mule deer behavior, not
black tail.
So if I drop apples for a deerthat none of their species has
ever developed CWD, I'm notgoing to give them CWD.
If any of their species hasever developed CWD, I'm not
(42:26):
going to give them CWD.
The only way is if Itransported a carcass or
something contaminated into thatarea that's how it could be
spread.
Or if I had a product donestrisbuck urine, one of those that
was contaminated if I sourced itfrom an unethical company.
So and that's really in my mind, that's where it gets back to
(42:48):
is, I think for this year, youknow, we're gonna pivot, we're
gonna adapt, but there needs tobe some refinement oh yeah, as
far as, uh, the blacktail coachis concerned, I mean we're just
gonna do like the marines, we'regonna adapt and and overcome
yeah, you know and like 90 ofour system is based on the whole
sense yeah you know, like Isaid that, if you've been to a
(43:11):
seminar, you understand whereI'm coming from and what I'm
saying.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
That other 10, if you wanted to bait, you could, and
that's fine.
It was legal and I'm not goingto stop guys from doing what
they do, but it was sense.
I've used synthetics.
I've had just as good luck withsynthetics as I had with 100%
pure urines and stuff.
So I think we're going to befine.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Yeah, find the habitat and the deer will be
there.
And figure out how to get themto daylight.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
And baiting is a very , very small portion of that
whole equation.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
So would have preferred they kept going, but
well-dapped.
So, just like we know all ofyou well, longer episode today.
Hope you enjoyed it and we willsee you all next week.
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