January 15, 2025 • 62 mins
This episode highlights the challenges and triumphs of Black voices in the publishing industry, featuring insights from Malaika about her journey from an HBCU student to a seasoned publishing professional. Our conversation touches on navigating micro aggressions, the importance of sales skills, and the value of building genuine relationships in a predominantly white industry.
• Examining the impact of HBCUs on Black publishing
• Discussing early aspirations and career paths in publishing
• Understanding the importance of sales skills in the industry
• Building genuine relationships and maintaining connections
• Navigating cultural shock in corporate publishing environments
• The transition from corporate roles to independent publishing
• Exploring the dynamics of celebrity imprints in the industry
• The advantages that independent publishers hold over corporate ones
• Balancing multiple roles and the opportunities they present
• Addressing microaggressions and strategies for resilience
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thank you so much for being here with me today.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Thank you, leah, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Yeah.
So before we start, I'd love tojust share with the audience
how we met, because we just metthis year and I think it came in
the most beautiful, divine way.
So, for those of you who do notknow my story, I studied at
Clark Atlanta University here inAtlanta, georgia, which is
where I started my publishingcompany, muse and Young Authors
(00:27):
Publishing.
Now a few months ago, I had thepleasure of meeting Paul Coates
over at Red Classic Press andhe came to our office.
He looked at our books.
We met through anotherorganization and as we were
talking he was preparing tospeak at the Writers Conference
on Clark's campus and when wemet he just stopped me and he
(00:48):
was like just stop, just stop.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
He was like you need to meet my league, are you?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
busy right now and I was like no, I have some free
time.
So he was like please come withme, like I have to connect you
two.
And I had the pleasure ofmeeting you, where I also
learned that you also studied atClark College and Atlanta
University before it came.
Clark Atlanta University Quickhistory lesson for you all on
HBCUs.
And so I just thought that itwas so beautiful that three of
(01:15):
us all attended and walked thepromenade on Clark Atlanta
University's campus and have allhad careers two extraordinary
careers in the publishingindustry.
And for someone like me that'sso important because when I
first started working in thisindustry, I didn't see a lot of
people who look like me, and Ialways found myself going to
(01:37):
trade conferences and publishingconferences and being one of
one, one of two, one of three,and so it was such a beautiful
surprise to meet you, to learnmore about your career and know
that we walked the same hallwaysand the same promenade at CAU.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, thank you.
Thank you for the kind words,but, trust me, we were as
thrilled at least as thrilled,to meet you as you were to meet
us.
You know, for all the reasonsthat you said, you know, paul
and I both being book nerds,that's what bound us together.
(02:15):
You know, so many years beforeand understanding how important
the tradition, the literarytradition, is in
African-American and Blackglobal culture and what an
incubator the HBCU, the AUCenter specifically, has been
(02:38):
for Black intellectualism, blackthought, activism, everything.
And it is his prayer and minethat you exist and doing the
work that you do.
So, thank you, thank you, youknow, and we're just getting to
(02:58):
know each other.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, yeah and again thank you, cause I feel like a
lot of the reason why I'm ableto exist and do the work that
I'm able to do is because of thework that you guys have done
for so many decades.
So I'd love to you have so muchexperience in your career, but
I'd love to take it back to thebeginning.
So when you first started atClark College, your first time
on campus, did you know thenthat you wanted to work in the
(03:21):
book industry?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I actually did.
You know I had no idea how thatwas going to happen, but for me
it begins really from a child.
My family fed me books so earlyand consistently that you know
it's a habit for me.
By the time I get to highschool I'm already hooked on
reading and writing.
(03:47):
I worked on my high school'sliterary journal and that was an
interesting experience becauseI was in the one percent of my
junior high and high school.
As far as race is concerned,it's 1% Black.
So you know there's that.
(04:10):
So by the time I get to ClarkCollege I already want to be an
editor.
But again, I had no idea how todo that.
No, I, you know, I didn't knowhow.
If I could tailor my courseworkto that, I rather began and my
degree is in the social sciencesand I rather had the idea at
(04:37):
first of getting a degree inpolitical science and I got a
minor in mass communications.
So that's as close as I thoughtI could get.
I didn't want to go the Englishdepartment route, you know,
because to me that was studyingliterature that had nothing to
do with what I wanted to do,moving forward, and it wasn't
(05:01):
Black literature that I'mtalking about and it wasn't
Black literature that I'mtalking about.
I'm talking about Europeanliterature in the English
department.
So, yes, I didn't know it, butit took me until graduate school
at Atlanta University to figureout how this could happen.
That is a career in publishing.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, and that's so fascinating because I feel like
now people who want to work inpublishing I think their first
mind is to go the English routeand to get a degree in English,
but I think that the experiencethat you get, especially in math
media, probably gave you somuch exposure to approaching
this work in publishing verydifferently, which honestly
(05:43):
skills that you need to be agreat publisher and a great
editor in any aspect of the bookindustry.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yes, yes, because my primary passion was to be an
artist, really to be a writer.
So, you know, there was thatside.
I did have this vision of beingin publishing, but greater than
that, I had this passion forwriting and I've been writing
stories and poems and whatnotfrom the time I was quite young.
(06:12):
So that was what people saw ofme first and that's what led me
to that just deepened my, youknow, passion and interest in um
publishing.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
From the other side, as a writer, you know, being a
published writer yeah, yeah, Ifeel like everyone who comes
into publishing at some form ofcapacity secretly wants to be a
writer or already is so it's.
It's funny to learn.
I'd like more conversations Ihave with people I realize oh,
you're a writer too, you're aneditor, but by heart, by trade,
(06:56):
you're a writer.
I'd love to learn a little bitmore about what your first
publishing job was and what didthat role include?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
publishing job was, and what did that role include?
Actually, while I was a studentin Atlanta, I got work-study
jobs at the Institute of theBlack World, which was a
consortium of Pan-Africanscholars from around the world,
from around the diaspora, and itwas at IBW literally blocks
(07:32):
right across the street fromwhere Clark's current radio
station is that I learned thebasics of production.
I learned how to typeset, burnplates Some of this is going to
be foreign because it's analogprinting, you know, and
(07:53):
production.
I ran a press, I.
We made short books, wepublished monographs, so, and
the organization sold books andits pamphlets and distributed
(08:16):
its newsletters through directmail, land mail.
So I was the young personmanaging the mail list, you know
.
Printing the brochures,collating them, stapling them,
you know.
Getting them stamped, you knowto go to the post office, you
know it was a whole thing, youknow, for 360.
(08:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know that was in earnestthe foundation of my publishing
work experience.
Then, after Atlanta, fromAtlanta University's Masters in
Library Studies program, I foundout about publishing courses.
(08:58):
So I went to Howard Universitybook publishing course and
that's where I got my firstcorporate job in publishing.
I had the option.
I got offered a job as aneditorial assistant in New York
at Harper Collins and to job asa college textbook sales rep
(09:19):
with Addison Wesley, which wouldkeep me in the South you know
one of their Southernterritories, and I love the idea
of moving to New York.
I couldn't figure out how Icould financially pull it off.
You know, I was reallyintimidated I wasn't intimidated
(09:42):
by, you know, or let me put itthis way, I was brave enough as
that young person to dive intoNew York, but I was.
But I needed a place to live.
Ok, so I chose the collegetextbook sales rep job, which
was one of the worst jobs I everhad in terms of personal
(10:07):
pleasure, but it was boot camp.
It was so good for me, you know,to be that that on the sales
side, to be in this job where Iwas the first Black person,
first Black sales rep they hadin that territory, you know,
from Charleston, south Carolina,to Cocoa Beach, florida, to
(10:30):
work in this environment.
What it put me through, thepaces it put me through last up
to now, you know.
So that was my first corporatejob, was in sales.
Then I went back to Atlanta.
It's also the first job I gotfired from too, you know.
(10:50):
And so I went back to Atlanta.
And then I bit the bullet,found a place, found a roommate
in New York, moved to New Yorkwithout a job but got a job as
an editorial assistant within acouple of weeks, and that was
New American Library.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Which is impressive.
I know people who have beentrying to get industry jobs for
years, so the fact that youpulled it off in a few weeks is
really impressive.
And it's fascinating that yousay that although the sales role
experience was the one that youleast, was your least favorite,
you didn't really enjoy it, butit taught you so much.
Can you explain a little bitmore about what a sales job and
(11:34):
role taught you?
Because in my experience I willsay I've published, we
published over 40 books, we'rean independent publisher and the
sales part is like the mostfrightening part for me, like
the production of the book, theeditorial.
Like I'm all game, I'm evengreat with like coming up with
the marketing campaigns, butwhen it comes to being a sales
(11:55):
rep and selling that book it's.
It can become very fearful forme and I just I'm like I feel
like I shriek up and I'm like Idon't know what to do anymore.
Where did everything go?
How do I sell this book now?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it would have been thesame thing for me, but at that
time, you know, so many thingshave changed in general in the
job market, including the wayyoung people get recruited to
jobs.
Recruited to jobs First of all,in just interviewing for
(12:30):
assistant jobs, I was flown in.
You know, in those days thiswas 1980, 81, early 80s they
would fly a publisher, that is,a candidate even for an
assistant job, in from out oftown.
For the end, that would likenever happen.
You know, these days, um, um,so uh.
(12:55):
But and also, once you got thejob, you were trained in ways
and I'm not sure that they trainpeople these days, meaning
meaning they shipped all of usaway, the new hires Addison
Wesley did, to a retreat fortraining that was conducted by
(13:20):
IBM.
Ibm had a, the tech company hada sales training thing, so they
actually taught you how to doit.
Because I don't have thoseinstincts either, you know, like
you, it was a littleintimidating to me.
I didn't know what to do.
It was like here are our books,and you know what I mean, that
kind of thing.
So we were trained in that.
(13:41):
So that was for me.
Trade, no, um, job experience, Idare say goes to waste if you
appreciate it in a particularway is if you, if you look at
every job you have as just acourse of study, it's just
another class you're taking.
(14:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it just canbe a longer class, but sometimes
you can get what you need, youknow, in a short bit.
But one to answer your questionmore precisely, being a sales
rep taught me how to dopresentations, for example.
Because you have to prepare forthat, you could create that one
(14:26):
.
You're given one sheet and youcreate one sheet that bullet
point items, for you to go inand know what you're going to
say, in this case to thatcollege professor to get that
person to adopt your book.
Right, it's a little easier forme.
If I'm going to sell something,it's going to be books, because
(14:49):
I'm passionate about it.
So I don't have to fake theenthusiasm.
Except, I was selling books fora company that published in the
hard sciences was computerbooks, and this was back when,
(15:09):
you know, we talked aboutcomputer languages.
You know, I don't know if youknow about that, I can't even
remember the names of them, butyou know.
So I did have to and I knewnothing about that.
I was selling differentialequations textbooks and you know
they didn't expect us to readthe book and be able to evaluate
(15:34):
and say, Whoa, this is the best.
You know what I'm saying.
We had a script, so you learnedabout presentations.
You learned just that give andtake with a customer, developing
customer relationships.
Publishing is a business ofrelationships at school.
(15:57):
Say that one more time, becauseit's for the people in the back
yeah, publishing is a businessof relationships, so it doesn't
matter how talented, howbrilliant, how beautiful you are
, how perfect your resume is.
You got to have some chemistryand rapport with somebody.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, I'm sorry, go finish.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, but that is a lot of it.
I was also traveling in thecompany car, you know, driving
to all of these places, and thatwas another.
That was an adventure.
It was pre-cell phone.
So here I am, you know, a girland you know, a nondescript car,
(16:44):
driving between Charleston,south Carolina, and Cocoa Beach,
florida, encountering all kindsof things side, you know.
But I thought, you know, I hadthis fantasy that I'd have this
job and it wouldn't require work, but not a whole lot of
(17:06):
thinking.
They'd be putting me up inhotels and you know I could be
like Maya Angelou and you know,writing in the hotel, you know,
later on, you know, with myglass of wine or whatever, I
tell you, I did not get muchwriting done at all because,
while sunsets and beaches aregreat inspiration to me, there's
(17:28):
nothing less inspiring to methan a Ramada Inn in Orlando,
florida, yeah, you know, with aplastic bedspread.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Didn't really set the tone for the creative juices to
flow, but I see how theadventure of driving and going
city to city and meeting newpeople all those experiences, I
feel like fuel your creativityand fuel the artists.
Artists have to live, and so Ithink that it's also really
beautiful that in your trade dayjob, while working in
(18:04):
publishing, you're able toexperience all these different
things that give you newperspectives on what to write
about.
But I want to go back to circleback to something that you
mentioned earlier aboutrelationship building.
So from 1985 to 1991, youworked at Simon Schuster.
You quit and then were rehiredin 2002, where you became vice
(18:27):
president and senior editor atAtria, which is giving high
demand.
So I'd love to learn a littlebit more about how you learned
about relationship building fromyour time in S&S and how did
you learn to not only buildrelationships but maintain
(18:48):
relationships over the years.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think fundamentally it's by being
genuine with people.
You know, I mean they're nicepeople and weird people and you
know, everywhere, and Igenerally like people.
So I'm going to lead in myinteraction with people, no
(19:11):
matter how superficial or how uhserious, I'll say the same way,
with respect and expectationthat I will receive that back.
You know it really does get.
You know it's manners, keep egoin check, you know, and I think
(19:33):
that that is important,especially where you're entering
foreign territory.
I was entering publishing, wasentering a very white world,
having left the womb of the HBCU, right, so I'm in this
corporate world and it's NewYork and everybody's so smart
(19:57):
and you know, so seeming soshort and and you know, and all
this, this sort of thing.
So you just kind of have toliterally, you know, just take a
breath, be yourself and do yourjob.
And one thing I learned fromthe womb and and a lot of black
and brown people learn from thewomb is how to work hard and
(20:18):
take direction and be polite.
You know what I mean.
We're.
We're raised, socialized toserve, you know.
In that way, the greaterchallenge, I think and for me,
is asserting ourselves to saywait a minute, I have a bigger
idea for you, okay, uh, andthat's where you have to relearn
(20:42):
.
I mean, rely on your, what youhave inside you, not your
degrees, not anything you know.
I think if you're confidentabout yourself and respectful,
then it doesn't guarantee thatyou're going to be treated nice
all the time, but it's going toguarantee that you attract.
(21:05):
You know a lot of who you areand those are other I've
encountered.
You know wonderful, brilliantpeople.
I've developed friendships andmentorship relationships with
people who were legends to mealready, heroes to me, you know.
So it's having faith inyourself in a relationship, but
(21:31):
also keeping cool and keepingcalm and not responding when
you're insulted Because you'renot being insulted.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, yeah.
There's another segment of theshow which is later on, which is
let's Do Better.
That's what I'm calling it nowand I want to highlight and talk
about some of those thingsbecause I know that a lot of
allies are listening to thisshow and, very similar to you
when I came into this industry,I have developed a lot of great
relationships with mentors,white mentors, who have helped
(22:05):
me, who have taught me what aP&L is, what a tip sheet, and
really have, you know, given meso much knowledge and wisdom in
this industry.
But on the flip side, you doencounter, I feel like, maybe a
lot of well-meaning white peoplebut maybe don't have the
self-awareness of the thingsthat they say and do, and
(22:26):
especially leaving the HBCU hub.
That was a huge culture shockfor me, you know.
Luckily, similarly to you, Igrew up in a very I'm from
Southern California, so I grewup in very diverse schools and
then I go from that to thengoing to HBCU, going to Clark
Atlanta University, and I wasaround my people all the time
and then I went from that to acompletely white industry and
(22:50):
that I feel like it for mepersonally.
It took me a few years to shakethat culture shock.
You know, luckily, in my day today my team is very diverse,
but when I have to go to tradeshows and sales conferences, I'm
reminded of the space in theindustry that I'm for a
corporate publisher who's aperson of color, who's dealing
(23:22):
with microaggressions everysingle day, what advice would
you give to him or to her on howto continue the marathon of
being in this industry whilealso having to balance the
microaggressions that exist inthe space?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, I think the first thing is just to take a
beat or two or three.
You can count to 10 if you hadthat much time you know,
literally take the breath andunderstand one, that somebody
(23:57):
else's view and opinion of you.
One, you can't control thatsomebody else's view and opinion
of you one you can't control.
Two is not even your business,but since somebody has imposed
their thing on you, that is notyour business what you think of
me.
Then you have to respond and Ibelieve in responding and
(24:21):
standing up for myself, butunderstanding that you have a
job, you know you have to feelin your gut, you know where your
boundaries are.
For example, I never.
(24:42):
There's some microaggressions,some insults I was never
subjected to, and I think partof it is that they just, you
know, just to put it in thestreet way, they do not have to
come for me that way, you know,like, for example, my appearance
(25:03):
, you know, just to put it in astreet way, they do not to come
for me that way, you know, like,for example, my appearance, you
know my appearance, meaninghaving natural hair from day one
.
You know, in the office, youknow it was like the hair has
been the hair, it's been thehair.
So how I dress, how Iaccessorize, you know it's been
(25:23):
that way.
And you know, I come from a deepculture and a long tradition of
being fly you know that's right.
You know what I'm saying.
Whatever the corporate and Imade a decision.
I consciously made the decisionto be myself, to do what I
(25:52):
would do, naturally in my ownworld, if these other people
didn't exist as much as possible, Because I was used to being in
a minority.
I was used to being aroundoverwhelmed by non-Black people.
You know, coming from EastTennessee, you know I was the
only Black girl in my graduatingclass of school.
I was used to that, which iswhy I got decided to go away
from that and the HBCU.
(26:12):
So when I come back to it, Iknow just to take a breath, mind
my manners and keep my earsopen, because I learned so much
from just letting somebody havetheir say, because often they're
not even talking to us.
You know it's people talking.
You know how people talk aboutyou and your presence.
(26:34):
For example, um, in the salesrep job, I remember two
potential.
You know they were collegeprofessors.
You know they were big deal,you know whatever supposedly on
their campus and they're lookingat me like I'm a marvel and
they say to each other in frontof me what accent is that?
(26:56):
What way of speaking is that?
And then I didn't jump in andtry to answer their question.
They thought, as far as I'mconcerned, they're not talking
to me.
They're like wasting my timebecause I need to make this.
You know presentation and moveon.
You're like I got another salespitch, let's keep it going yeah,
and then so they answer theirown question, because our
(27:20):
answers, even about ourselves,don't count anyway.
So one says, oh, that's it,that's an educated speech.
So OK, what's the surprise?
It's like saying, callingsomebody articulate, you know
what I mean.
Calling a black or brown person, or person otherwise
(27:41):
stereotyped, articulate.
So you have to just let peopleperform and not speak it
personally.
That's the biggest thing listen, observe everything, pay
attention, go away and sit withit and you'll have the answer is
(28:01):
how to respond.
Uh, yourself, and this is onlypersonal.
Nobody has to believe in this,but I don't think revenge is
very productive yeah and peoplecan take that however they want.
Yeah, do your.
(28:22):
The other thing I learned it, Iand and you know I don't want
to talk too much, but um isstand your ground and stay in
your position until you areready to leave or external
circumstances move you out,because nine times out of ten,
(28:42):
the people who are torturing you, um, often I'll say they're
going to leave the companybefore you do, even the boss.
You know, I've had people thatit's like, oh lord, please take
this person out of my life andthey're gone.
Yeah, but they did it orwhatever.
(29:03):
But you know, you, I haveoutlasted so many people I
didn't like.
I had a guy in my first year atSimon Schuster he was, he had
been there already for some time, but he was not a full editor,
he was still an assistant orassociate who, you know, took me
to lunch and said that hedidn't think that the company
(29:27):
was for me.
I haven't seen that guy in Idon't know 25, 30 years.
I ended up at that company for18 and a half years.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
And continue to move up that company for 18 and a
half years and continue to moveup.
And where did he go?
Where was he at?
But I think that's a greatpoint.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, he might be sitting on a billion.
That's another conversation.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
He might be the head of some bank in Europe for a
life Right or found a way toyeah, to get on the business
side, which I'm glad that youbrought up and I think, for
anyone listening or any personof color who's working in
corporate publishing, because Ithink corporate publishing,
independent publishing, whetheryou're a bookseller, there are
so many people that exist in theecosystem of the book world but
at some level, regardless ofwhat role you have, I think you
(30:18):
are going to come face to facewith people.
Of what role you have, I thinkyou are going to come face to
face with people and, honestly,just a culture that simply was
not built for us or built tosupport who we are.
But I love that you justencouraged the audience to.
What I heard is to not codeswitch and to show up as
yourself, but to listen and tobe attentive, because people are
(30:38):
going to tell on themselves and, like you said, that person may
not be in that same role or inthat same company and you may
outlast them.
And I'm glad that you mentionedthat because I'm curious to know
.
You spent a lot of your careeras an editor at trade and
corporate publishers but thenyou took a pivot and launched
your own literary firm.
(30:59):
So I'd love to learn about thedecision-making process of
leaving the ecosystem ofpublishing and editing and going
into being a literary agent.
What is an agent and why didyou make that pivot?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the first time I'mpivoted like that was when I
left Amistad.
Because Amistad, that was adream job for me, being a
founding editor at anindependent black owned and run
company.
It was a startup, that's juststartup companies or their own,
(31:33):
you know, ball of wax.
So I did that for about five,six years and then I left there.
So again, I'm leaving a jobvoluntarily.
Every time I've left a jobvoluntarily Simon and his sister
the first time.
Then Amistad, you know I leave.
I have to leave with some kindof income, a project or
(31:55):
something.
The first time it was to authora book and the second time it
was to create what I call bluemedia editorial services.
And I took it.
I dipped into agenting a littlebit, but I backed off.
It was a different time.
Fast forward to my 18 and a halfyear at Simon Schuster.
(32:23):
I'm laid off.
So there I had to regroup andthink of what I'm going to do as
an independent, because I'vealways believed in.
The other thing I think is goodfor you to have inside you is
to, if you have it, lose thefear of being unemployed.
(32:50):
Verify, okay.
And my answer to losing thefear of being unemployed was to
create income streams for myself, whether I got a new job or not
.
So I've always managed to dothat.
I am straight up Tennessee,african American, not Jamaican,
(33:11):
but three jobs.
Yeah, my family you know aswell, so you know I'm freed up
from corporate work once again.
I have to put somethingtogether.
I tell you I'm an agent reallybecause I love supporting other
(33:35):
writers.
I wouldn't be an agentotherwise.
You know it.
It can be fun, but it's veryrisky, it's very difficult, um,
it's very difficult to sustain.
You know, um, you're really outthere, which is why I have
three streams of income which isso smart yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, I know that, even as a business owner and as
a publisher, I'm learning thatand people have said this time
and time again.
I just am a little defiant and Ibelieve there's money in this
space, but people I don't knowif you've experienced this or
people have shared this to youbut people say you don't really
get into the book industry tomake money because there's not
much money to be made, Althoughwhen you look at the stats, it's
(34:23):
a $310 billion industryglobally and I think the US
alone brings anywhere from $25to $50 billion.
So the money is there, but Ithink for the people like us who
work in this space, we have tobe very creative on how we earn
our money and have to have allthese different streams of
revenue, because a lot of therevenue that's made in the
(34:45):
industry is being taken by thebig five and all of these
conglomerates.
So, with that being said, youcurrently are on the founding
team.
You're one of two executiveeditors at Awa Press, which was
founded by Questlove.
At Awa Press, which was foundedby Questlove, which is a
division and a parent companyunder Macmillan.
(35:06):
Tell us more about this imprint, how you come to work with
Questlove and what the imprintrepresents.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, you know well, the imprint represents a stream
inside the ecosystem of tradepublishing where you use public
figures, well-known people'splatforms, to promote to a
(35:32):
certain kind of reader.
Okay, there've been many ofthese kind of imprints for a
long time and they over timethey've included Black public
figures more and more.
For example, one of the earlyfamous names to have their own
(35:53):
imprint, biddy Sim as Simon andSchuster, you know.
He's had some kind of book andprinter program there now for oh
my goodness you know, probablyapproaching 20 years.
So you know that hip-hop iconyou know has been a player in
publishing with, uh, a label, asit were, his name, you, for a
(36:18):
long time, the.
What's your name?
Phoebe Robinson, two DopeChicks she has her imprint.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I know Charlamagne Tha God has his own imprint.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Has his, you know, at Adria.
So Amir Thompson having hisparticular but very broad
platform, you know, from latenight TV to music, you know
different kind of big fish, youknow with when you get down to
(37:15):
these celebrity branded imprints, celebrity branded imprints,
and Amir has that kind ofinterest.
He's a book person, you know.
He's a.
He's the combination of hipnessand nerdiness, you know, and he
reads so and he has ideas,obviously, many ideas about that
(37:38):
.
So they saw the Farage, straussand Giroux and the MCD division
of that, saw the wisdom.
And I'm throwing all of thesenames, you know, because I know
that you have professionallyinterested readers to signal.
(37:58):
You know what the map of theecosystem is, the corporate map
People talk about.
Were there just four or fivecompanies in publishing?
You know, but there's no senseof imprints and brand names, and
you know what I'm saying.
And in a woo is one of the, thenewer ones and that of that and
(38:21):
I love it because of itsuniqueness, represented by um
amir's broad taste in fiction,not fiction, he's not just about
music at all.
You know history, you know hispersonal story attached to the
clotilled, the slave ship thatwas unearthed.
(38:43):
You know he's come to realize,you know a personal connection
in the history space.
You know that way, the historyspace, you know that way.
So for me it's an excitingopportunity to do something a
little bit different from whatI've been doing in book
(39:05):
publishing now for decades.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
I'm curious to also to learn the business behind
Imprints, and I'm glad that youmapped it out for the listeners
out there, because I know a lotof times when people think big
publishers, they only think ofthe big five, but each big five
publisher has multiple dozens,if not I would maybe say
hundreds of imprints that existunderneath that company.
(39:31):
So let's say, a celebrity or aninfluencer out there is
listening and they're thinkingof starting a publishing venture
.
What does starting an imprintat a parent company or a big
five publisher look like?
Does that person own the rightsto their books?
Is that shared with the bigfive or with the publisher?
And what does the money looklike?
(39:53):
Does that imprint solelyresponsible for the funding of
their production or is that oneof the many benefits of being
with a larger publisher?
Is that they cover all thoseproduction costs?
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Yeah, all that's negotiable really, and each deal
has its own particularities,particular particularity.
(40:25):
Um, there is okay.
There's the, the traditionalpublisher author relationship
where you have a contract to doa books or books, plural and, um
, the the terms of royalties 10to 15 percent for hardcovers,
you know, against retail or net,traditional publishing, primary
(40:46):
rights, publication, subsidiaryrights, foreign rights, all
that kind of business.
Then you have the other kind ofrelationships that publishers
have with creatives and authorswhich could look like a joint
venture.
I've worked with at least oneauthor who had a joint venture
(41:13):
with their publisher, and tdjakes was that.
Well, you know, td jakes is hisown uh, empire, uh that kind of
thing.
So, um, that's a companypartnering with the company as
opposed to an individual imprint, yeah, yeah, or content, or
(41:36):
content creator for thepublisher.
So it can happen like that.
It can happen like indiepublishers, like Vicki Stringer
who had Triple Crown Press, apress like that and presses like
that have been invited, well,have been bought, you know,
(42:02):
larger publishing companies,just outright by those companies
and they become imprints.
That's what happened withAmistad.
Actually, you know, it was anindependent company when I was
with them I left and then a fewyears later Charles Harris sold
it to Harper Collins and thereit was.
So it happens different ways,you know.
(42:24):
So the business arrangement,how the principal person earns
money for that, is going todiffer to the person.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Yeah, thank you so much for breaking that down.
I know it can be very confusing, and a big reason why I wanted
to start this platform, thispodcast, it's to break down the
business behind the book,because I feel like the
publishing industry can be verysecretive.
It's not something that you canjust Google and find all of the
answers to, and soconversations like this and
(42:56):
breakdowns are really helpfulfor our audience.
And so, in short, there are somany different ways to be an
imprint under one of the bigfive.
I think for a lot ofindependent publishers we always
just think of we build up ourindependent publishing company
and then we sell it.
It's been acquired and that'sthe only way to be an imprint,
but there are so many differentbusiness models that exist for
(43:18):
that to happen.
But I'm glad that you mentionedyour time working at an
independent publisher and I'dlove to hear from you what do
you think are the advantagesthat independent book publishers
have that corporate publishersdon't?
Speaker 2 (43:41):
don't.
Well, the biggest one, I think,is that you don't have to
answer to people, um, who aren't, uh, as familiar with what you
do as you are.
You know, for example, ifyou're you're a parent company
and books, and you're owned by,uh, a company, a food
manufacturer, you know what Imean.
Somebody who's sellingbreakfast cereals and you know
loaves of bread, and, and it'shappened.
You know, at one point, simonand schuster was owned by, um,
(44:05):
this company it's probably goodthat I can't remember their
names, I haven't heard aboutthem, but they own sugar
plantations, you know, and haytea, you know.
In Haiti, you know, and MadisonSquare Garden.
You know what I'm saying.
These corporate alliances aren'talways between entities that do
the same kind of business, sothat can be a problem.
(44:26):
Simon Schuster's had a numberof owners and they were recently
owned by CBS.
They are right now.
So that was seen as an easieralliance because it was all
media.
Maybe yes, maybe no.
You know what I mean.
It depends on who's runningthese companies at the time.
(44:49):
You know it all gets down againrelationships.
You know the human beings, youknow behind this.
You know, and, and and acompany can't exist.
Simon and his sister startedfrom men who were publishing
crossword puzzles and grew intothis empire.
So things change, you know,over time, and and all of that
(45:14):
you know over time and all ofthat you know has to be
investigated to understand whatthe publishing business is
really about and how media isimpacted by things that we don't
associate with being media.
You know, like that person whohas you know, they want your
(45:36):
publishing company to be tiltedright wing because they're right
wing or left wing becausethey're left wing.
You know what I'm saying.
Ownership matters.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
It does and I'm so glad that you said that.
That was honestly a big reasonwhy I'm still doing this work as
an independent publisher.
I always say I got into it byaccident.
I self-published a book, thenstarted helping kids in my
community publish books and thatled into a publishing company.
But my initial reason forstarting a publishing company
(46:11):
wasn't because I wanted to be inthe industry and be a disruptor
.
It was, oh, I see a need for abook, I'm going to do it.
And then the more I learnedabout the industry, the more
that I realized oh, we needownership, we need more
Black-owned publishers.
It kind of goes back to ourconversation on imprints.
But I remember when I was firstentering into the industry I
would just read PW articles allday because that was like my
(46:33):
only gateway into the industry,and I would read about this
person who started an imprint.
And this person started animprint and I was like, oh, wow,
this is great, they're doingthe work.
And then a year would pass, twoyears would pass, and then it
would be radio silent and Iwould always ask myself it seems
like there are people who arestarting the work of starting
these publishing companies, butthen we don't hear from them
(46:54):
anymore, and it always goes backto ownership who owns that
publishing company, who ownsthat content?
Because they make the decisionson what goes and what doesn't,
and so, for anybody who'slistening, I hope that this is
encouraging you.
If you are thinking aboutstarting a publishing company or
currently are an independentpublisher.
Know that the work that we dois needed and is necessary,
(47:16):
because if we're not going to doit, who's going to?
I made a post a few weeks ago,um, and I was like there's
nobody coming to save us in thisindustry.
I don't think that it's mypersonal opinion.
I could get some flack on it,but I don't have trust in
institutions who weren't builtfor us to do the work required
(47:37):
to promote more diverse booksand to keep them long lasting,
and I think that the way that wesee that is by starting our own
.
So I'm just so inspired by youand so many other people who
have worked in the industry,because the experience that you
guys have is so necessary, andit's one of the things that I
feel like me, as an independentpublisher who never worked for a
(47:58):
publisher before, is the thingthat I'm missing, so loving this
conversation, and I know we'recoming up on time, but my last
question to you is you wear somany hats.
You are a developmental editor,a consulting editor, an agent, a
writer, an acquiring editor,and I know you've worn those
hats in different periods ofyour life.
(48:20):
But those are all skill setsthat you have.
So how do you balance that?
How do you know when it's timeto write a book just for you as
an author?
How do you know when it's timeto acquire a book and work with
an editor, and how do youbalance all of these skill sets
that you've acquired over theyears?
Speaker 2 (48:39):
You know it's hard to do.
You have to go with the flowand that sounds, you know, all
loosey goosey and all, but youhave a sense of when you're
taking on too much and sometimesimmediate circumstances make
(49:00):
the plan for you.
Yeah, okay, I have to say, mostof the books that I published,
it wasn't my idea to do it atthat time.
You know, somebody came to mewith an opportunity and then I
said oh so you know life, theuniverse can order things for
you, you know.
(49:20):
You just, it's like preparation, you just have to be prepared.
You have to, and how you getprepared in life, I think, is to
do what you really believe inand what you really like.
You know.
So baseball is your thing, youknow.
Then do continue doing thatwhile you do everything else.
(49:42):
And if you do that well, you'regoing to uncheck.
You know you're going to checkthe opportunity.
I love your story because youdid.
You did your self-study is whatyou would be guided toward if
you had done formal study, andwhat I mean by example is
(50:04):
reading PW religiously.
You know reading.
You know I love literature andyou know the classics.
I don't knock that anybody whowas a nerd in any aspect of that
respect.
However, that is not thebusiness of publishing.
(50:25):
But stay in that, becauseyou'll be the person who, in a
publishing company, creates,supports, makes successful a
publishing program around thatkind of literature.
You know.
Think of how many contemporaryworks of fiction have been
(50:48):
written inspired by Jane Austen,you know.
So if you're that, that kidwho's, you know what I'm saying.
So do everything.
Don't abandon your passions.
I think is the best way for meto put the advice.
If you're into fly fishing, ifyou're into hip hop, if you're
(51:11):
into R&B, between 1914 and 19,.
You know, whatever, stay there.
Do what you have to do to liveand keep your sanity and your
physical health, to take thatopportunity.
When you meet the publisher ofRandom House at a same
(51:36):
conference where they're lookingfor talent, you know what I
mean.
It's very within it's.
Have something you'repassionate about, because you
can't do.
Publishing is about everything,every topic in the world, the
whole universe of information.
(51:56):
So you have to find your length.
So you have to be passionateenough about something to go
deep in it, to become I don'tlike the word expert, but I'm
going to use it here for theinterest of the time but to
(52:22):
become an expert in that thing,in a language, in whatever,
especially your own, related toyour own story.
You know, whatever your past is, your roots are, it's going to
be fertile fodder for some kindof project related to your
profession.
Fertile fodder for some kind ofproject related to your
profession.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
You know whether you were dirt poor, you know coming
up as a kid, or you came up theson of Bill Gates.
Yeah, I love that you said flowand it's so funny that you
mentioned that.
At the start of each year, Ipick a word to just ground
myself in for that year, and yousaid both of them.
One of them was flow and theother was rooted.
And the reason why flow is oneand I love that you talked about
that is because differentopportunities present themselves
(53:08):
at different times.
There could be a season.
There was a season of your lifewhere you were an editor, you
were an acquiring editor, andthen you were called to write
and to let your creativity justrun free and to be a writer in
that moment.
And so I think that, for thepeople listening out there, and
for even myself, remindingourselves that flow is okay,
(53:29):
because I think, especially forsomeone like me I'm a Virgo, so
I'm like, if this is the mission, this is all I'm focusing on I
have tunnel vision.
I don't see nothing else, Idon't hear nothing else, but
having that flow, it's soimportant because you never know
what opportunity is going topresent themselves.
And I think being in a state offlow, it's your fluid.
You're able to move with thechange, and things are always
(53:51):
changing.
It's the only constant, and soI'm so glad that you said that
and I'm so glad that we sharedthis time together.
My very last question andsegment of the show is and this
is new y'all, so it may change,but for right now it's called
let's Do Better, because I knowthat there are a lot of allies
that are listening and I wantthis to be a learning experience
for everybody.
(54:12):
And so my question to you iswhat is the craziest thing that
has happened to you or has beensaid to you while working in
this industry?
An example and I can go first isI remember going to a
publishing conference forpublishers for small to
mid-sized publishers and a manwho will not be named, seen
(54:34):
Cause I go to these conferencesall the time, and so I think
this time I had braids and so hecomes up to me and like, grabs,
like, and not just like onebraid, like he grabs a grip of
my braids and is like is thisall your hair?
Your hair grew so much from thelast time I seen you.
I didn't, I didn't know.
And he's like continuing totouch my braid.
And I'm just sitting in thisconference room across from this
(54:57):
white man awkwardly standing ashe's touching my hair and I'm
just like, no, it's not, but Iwas just so amazed that he felt
so comfortable to come and touchmy hair in that way.
So I say all that to say, malik, I'd love to hear from you what
has been a story or a momentthat stands out to you that has
happened in this industry.
Speaker 2 (55:17):
I have one of those hair stories.
I have two of those hairstories, you know, and I'm not
going to repeat them becauseit's the same Somebody,
physically, you know, invadesyour space, your body, and in my
case it's women, one in theoffice and one who saw me in the
(55:39):
street, who worked at a wholeother division, who had zero, we
had zero contact.
That person also tried to hireme, bring me on just a few years
ago, and that was a hard no,that kind of thing.
You know, leah, the list is isso long and I try not to, um,
(56:11):
keep the laundry list, you know,at top stuff, sometimes it's
not even what they say, but whatthey do, like exclude you from
a meeting, you know.
Well, one of the things thatcome to mind is one of the
things that I've suffered fromand I use that term suffered
(56:35):
loosely is people in theindustry apologizing, low-key
apologizing for not letting meknow about certain opportunities
, job-wise, project-wise,because I have one group that
say, oh, you know you're soupmarket, suggesting that
(56:59):
because I've signed, quoteliterary writers, you know,
maurice Condé, or somebody youknow that I wouldn't be
interested in a commercialwriter, or something like that,
which is ridiculous if you lookat my record if you know
anything about me professionallyand not just dealing with some
superficial rumor.
(57:19):
Then there's another set ofpeople who, because I had
published great and successfulworks of urban fiction and
erotica, have said to me um, Ithought you only published trash
(57:39):
.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
Yeah, you see so that's when we have to take the
the 10, 10 seconds of a deepbreath.
If you have time in that momentto gather yourself, yeah.
How do you respond to like?
How do you respond to that?
Speaker 2 (57:58):
well, it depends on who the person is.
Sadly, I have to say, thatperson was a black male, uh,
bookshop owner, and so I tookthem over to our booth in BA,
because that's where we were thebook expo, right, the big trade
show.
So I said, well, because that'swhat I was doing with this
(58:19):
person.
Anyway, I was attempting tolure them over to look at the
books.
You know that I had coming upanyway, so I just took him over
and you know this is what I'mdoing.
You know, whatever you want tocall it, this is who are?
These are my authors thisseason?
Uh, because one, I'm not goingto let somebody lure me into a
(58:45):
fight.
You know the different ways tofight, you know.
You know I'm inspired by theninja ways to fight, you know,
as opposed to the, you know,freeze my face up, take my
earrings off, you know, typething.
But all of those, you know,grabbing the hair, saying
(59:11):
something inappropriate, lookingat you inappropriately.
You know there's also the flipside of the insult, where, you
know, once there was an occasionthat my co-workers were trying
to buy me a present and so oneof my realer friends, white
(59:35):
friends in the office, she waslike.
She said it was such adiscussion about what to get me
because they were leaning towardjewelry and you know I wear
what I wear.
You know black artisans and youknow I look how I look and
somebody says no, how I'd lookand and and somebody says no,
(01:00:02):
she has her own jeweler becausethey'd heard me talk about and
went in a way I did.
You know, brother actually fromAtlanta, juju, you know from
Atlanta.
You know, brother from DC, thegoldsmith.
You know what I mean.
So it gets down to peopletrying to be nice, as Chris Rod,
you know, say the nice whitepeople.
(01:00:22):
You know, and she has her ownjeweler.
You know, which is hilarious tome Also, I don't think I said
anything about a sense of humoris I don't say don't do anything
, but if you're not a black,brown person with a sense of
humor, do not get in thebusiness of publishing.
Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
You're going to need it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Yeah, but beware if you laugh too animated a way you
know, like Kamala, you knowthey're going to talk about you
too.
Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
They're going to find something to talk about either
way.
But I think that's why thehumor is important, because the
humor is for us, it's notnecessarily for you.
It's one of the strategies wehave to keep on going and to
stay focused on the prize.
So that's a great note to end.
On Malika, thank you so muchagain for joining me in this
conversation and for honestlyjust opening up your arms to me
(01:01:29):
since the first time we met andbeing willing to give me
information and resources and toengage in these conversations.
I know it's helped me so muchand I really hope that it's
helped our listeners out there.
But feel free to please tell uswhere people can follow you and
follow your books or anyupcoming projects that you want
to share with people before weget out of here.
Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
Well, the agency website is adarosliteratribecom,
so you can keep up there andyou can send me messages there.
And if you're interested inbeing on my newsletter mail list
, which is occasional I don't do, like you know, regular per
month then please.
(01:02:13):
But thank you so much, leah.
You know you're helping me, youknow and have helped me already
, so I look forward to theongoing development of the
ecosystem.
Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
I love that.
I love that.
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you so much for being here with me today.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Thank you, leah, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Yeah.
So before we start, I'd love tojust share with the audience
how we met, because we just metthis year and I think it came in
the most beautiful, divine way.
So, for those of you who do notknow my story, I studied at
Clark Atlanta University here inAtlanta, georgia, which is
where I started my publishingcompany, muse and Young Authors
(00:27):
Publishing.
Now a few months ago, I had thepleasure of meeting Paul Coates
over at Red Classic Press andhe came to our office.
He looked at our books.
We met through anotherorganization and as we were
talking he was preparing tospeak at the Writers Conference
on Clark's campus and when wemet he just stopped me and he
(00:48):
was like just stop, just stop.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
He was like you need to meet my league, are you?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
busy right now and I was like no, I have some free
time.
So he was like please come withme, like I have to connect you
two.
And I had the pleasure ofmeeting you, where I also
learned that you also studied atClark College and Atlanta
University before it came.
Clark Atlanta University Quickhistory lesson for you all on
HBCUs.
And so I just thought that itwas so beautiful that three of
(01:15):
us all attended and walked thepromenade on Clark Atlanta
University's campus and have allhad careers two extraordinary
careers in the publishingindustry.
And for someone like me that'sso important because when I
first started working in thisindustry, I didn't see a lot of
people who look like me, and Ialways found myself going to
(01:37):
trade conferences and publishingconferences and being one of
one, one of two, one of three,and so it was such a beautiful
surprise to meet you, to learnmore about your career and know
that we walked the same hallwaysand the same promenade at CAU.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, thank you.
Thank you for the kind words,but, trust me, we were as
thrilled at least as thrilled,to meet you as you were to meet
us.
You know, for all the reasonsthat you said, you know, paul
and I both being book nerds,that's what bound us together.
(02:15):
You know, so many years beforeand understanding how important
the tradition, the literarytradition, is in
African-American and Blackglobal culture and what an
incubator the HBCU, the AUCenter specifically, has been
(02:38):
for Black intellectualism, blackthought, activism, everything.
And it is his prayer and minethat you exist and doing the
work that you do.
So, thank you, thank you, youknow, and we're just getting to
(02:58):
know each other.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, yeah and again thank you, cause I feel like a
lot of the reason why I'm ableto exist and do the work that
I'm able to do is because of thework that you guys have done
for so many decades.
So I'd love to you have so muchexperience in your career, but
I'd love to take it back to thebeginning.
So when you first started atClark College, your first time
on campus, did you know thenthat you wanted to work in the
(03:21):
book industry?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I actually did.
You know I had no idea how thatwas going to happen, but for me
it begins really from a child.
My family fed me books so earlyand consistently that you know
it's a habit for me.
By the time I get to highschool I'm already hooked on
reading and writing.
(03:47):
I worked on my high school'sliterary journal and that was an
interesting experience becauseI was in the one percent of my
junior high and high school.
As far as race is concerned,it's 1% Black.
So you know there's that.
(04:10):
So by the time I get to ClarkCollege I already want to be an
editor.
But again, I had no idea how todo that.
No, I, you know, I didn't knowhow.
If I could tailor my courseworkto that, I rather began and my
degree is in the social sciencesand I rather had the idea at
(04:37):
first of getting a degree inpolitical science and I got a
minor in mass communications.
So that's as close as I thoughtI could get.
I didn't want to go the Englishdepartment route, you know,
because to me that was studyingliterature that had nothing to
do with what I wanted to do,moving forward, and it wasn't
(05:01):
Black literature that I'mtalking about and it wasn't
Black literature that I'mtalking about.
I'm talking about Europeanliterature in the English
department.
So, yes, I didn't know it, butit took me until graduate school
at Atlanta University to figureout how this could happen.
That is a career in publishing.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, and that's so fascinating because I feel like
now people who want to work inpublishing I think their first
mind is to go the English routeand to get a degree in English,
but I think that the experiencethat you get, especially in math
media, probably gave you somuch exposure to approaching
this work in publishing verydifferently, which honestly
(05:43):
skills that you need to be agreat publisher and a great
editor in any aspect of the bookindustry.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yes, yes, because my primary passion was to be an
artist, really to be a writer.
So, you know, there was thatside.
I did have this vision of beingin publishing, but greater than
that, I had this passion forwriting and I've been writing
stories and poems and whatnotfrom the time I was quite young.
(06:12):
So that was what people saw ofme first and that's what led me
to that just deepened my, youknow, passion and interest in um
publishing.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
From the other side, as a writer, you know, being a
published writer yeah, yeah, Ifeel like everyone who comes
into publishing at some form ofcapacity secretly wants to be a
writer or already is so it's.
It's funny to learn.
I'd like more conversations Ihave with people I realize oh,
you're a writer too, you're aneditor, but by heart, by trade,
(06:56):
you're a writer.
I'd love to learn a little bitmore about what your first
publishing job was and what didthat role include?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
publishing job was, and what did that role include?
Actually, while I was a studentin Atlanta, I got work-study
jobs at the Institute of theBlack World, which was a
consortium of Pan-Africanscholars from around the world,
from around the diaspora, and itwas at IBW literally blocks
(07:32):
right across the street fromwhere Clark's current radio
station is that I learned thebasics of production.
I learned how to typeset, burnplates Some of this is going to
be foreign because it's analogprinting, you know, and
(07:53):
production.
I ran a press, I.
We made short books, wepublished monographs, so, and
the organization sold books andits pamphlets and distributed
(08:16):
its newsletters through directmail, land mail.
So I was the young personmanaging the mail list, you know
.
Printing the brochures,collating them, stapling them,
you know.
Getting them stamped, you knowto go to the post office, you
know it was a whole thing, youknow, for 360.
(08:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know that was in earnestthe foundation of my publishing
work experience.
Then, after Atlanta, fromAtlanta University's Masters in
Library Studies program, I foundout about publishing courses.
(08:58):
So I went to Howard Universitybook publishing course and
that's where I got my firstcorporate job in publishing.
I had the option.
I got offered a job as aneditorial assistant in New York
at Harper Collins and to job asa college textbook sales rep
(09:19):
with Addison Wesley, which wouldkeep me in the South you know
one of their Southernterritories, and I love the idea
of moving to New York.
I couldn't figure out how Icould financially pull it off.
You know, I was reallyintimidated I wasn't intimidated
(09:42):
by, you know, or let me put itthis way, I was brave enough as
that young person to dive intoNew York, but I was.
But I needed a place to live.
Ok, so I chose the collegetextbook sales rep job, which
was one of the worst jobs I everhad in terms of personal
(10:07):
pleasure, but it was boot camp.
It was so good for me, you know,to be that that on the sales
side, to be in this job where Iwas the first Black person,
first Black sales rep they hadin that territory, you know,
from Charleston, south Carolina,to Cocoa Beach, florida, to
(10:30):
work in this environment.
What it put me through, thepaces it put me through last up
to now, you know.
So that was my first corporatejob, was in sales.
Then I went back to Atlanta.
It's also the first job I gotfired from too, you know.
(10:50):
And so I went back to Atlanta.
And then I bit the bullet,found a place, found a roommate
in New York, moved to New Yorkwithout a job but got a job as
an editorial assistant within acouple of weeks, and that was
New American Library.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Which is impressive.
I know people who have beentrying to get industry jobs for
years, so the fact that youpulled it off in a few weeks is
really impressive.
And it's fascinating that yousay that although the sales role
experience was the one that youleast, was your least favorite,
you didn't really enjoy it, butit taught you so much.
Can you explain a little bitmore about what a sales job and
(11:34):
role taught you?
Because in my experience I willsay I've published, we
published over 40 books, we'rean independent publisher and the
sales part is like the mostfrightening part for me, like
the production of the book, theeditorial.
Like I'm all game, I'm evengreat with like coming up with
the marketing campaigns, butwhen it comes to being a sales
(11:55):
rep and selling that book it's.
It can become very fearful forme and I just I'm like I feel
like I shriek up and I'm like Idon't know what to do anymore.
Where did everything go?
How do I sell this book now?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it would have been thesame thing for me, but at that
time, you know, so many thingshave changed in general in the
job market, including the wayyoung people get recruited to
jobs.
Recruited to jobs First of all,in just interviewing for
(12:30):
assistant jobs, I was flown in.
You know, in those days thiswas 1980, 81, early 80s they
would fly a publisher, that is,a candidate even for an
assistant job, in from out oftown.
For the end, that would likenever happen.
You know, these days, um, um,so uh.
(12:55):
But and also, once you got thejob, you were trained in ways
and I'm not sure that they trainpeople these days, meaning
meaning they shipped all of usaway, the new hires Addison
Wesley did, to a retreat fortraining that was conducted by
(13:20):
IBM.
Ibm had a, the tech company hada sales training thing, so they
actually taught you how to doit.
Because I don't have thoseinstincts either, you know, like
you, it was a littleintimidating to me.
I didn't know what to do.
It was like here are our books,and you know what I mean, that
kind of thing.
So we were trained in that.
(13:41):
So that was for me.
Trade, no, um, job experience, Idare say goes to waste if you
appreciate it in a particularway is if you, if you look at
every job you have as just acourse of study, it's just
another class you're taking.
(14:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it just canbe a longer class, but sometimes
you can get what you need, youknow, in a short bit.
But one to answer your questionmore precisely, being a sales
rep taught me how to dopresentations, for example.
Because you have to prepare forthat, you could create that one
(14:26):
.
You're given one sheet and youcreate one sheet that bullet
point items, for you to go inand know what you're going to
say, in this case to thatcollege professor to get that
person to adopt your book.
Right, it's a little easier forme.
If I'm going to sell something,it's going to be books, because
(14:49):
I'm passionate about it.
So I don't have to fake theenthusiasm.
Except, I was selling books fora company that published in the
hard sciences was computerbooks, and this was back when,
(15:09):
you know, we talked aboutcomputer languages.
You know, I don't know if youknow about that, I can't even
remember the names of them, butyou know.
So I did have to and I knewnothing about that.
I was selling differentialequations textbooks and you know
they didn't expect us to readthe book and be able to evaluate
(15:34):
and say, Whoa, this is the best.
You know what I'm saying.
We had a script, so you learnedabout presentations.
You learned just that give andtake with a customer, developing
customer relationships.
Publishing is a business ofrelationships at school.
(15:57):
Say that one more time, becauseit's for the people in the back
yeah, publishing is a businessof relationships, so it doesn't
matter how talented, howbrilliant, how beautiful you are
, how perfect your resume is.
You got to have some chemistryand rapport with somebody.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, I'm sorry, go finish.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, but that is a lot of it.
I was also traveling in thecompany car, you know, driving
to all of these places, and thatwas another.
That was an adventure.
It was pre-cell phone.
So here I am, you know, a girland you know, a nondescript car,
(16:44):
driving between Charleston,south Carolina, and Cocoa Beach,
florida, encountering all kindsof things side, you know.
But I thought, you know, I hadthis fantasy that I'd have this
job and it wouldn't require work, but not a whole lot of
(17:06):
thinking.
They'd be putting me up inhotels and you know I could be
like Maya Angelou and you know,writing in the hotel, you know,
later on, you know, with myglass of wine or whatever, I
tell you, I did not get muchwriting done at all because,
while sunsets and beaches aregreat inspiration to me, there's
(17:28):
nothing less inspiring to methan a Ramada Inn in Orlando,
florida, yeah, you know, with aplastic bedspread.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Didn't really set the tone for the creative juices to
flow, but I see how theadventure of driving and going
city to city and meeting newpeople all those experiences, I
feel like fuel your creativityand fuel the artists.
Artists have to live, and so Ithink that it's also really
beautiful that in your trade dayjob, while working in
(18:04):
publishing, you're able toexperience all these different
things that give you newperspectives on what to write
about.
But I want to go back to circleback to something that you
mentioned earlier aboutrelationship building.
So from 1985 to 1991, youworked at Simon Schuster.
You quit and then were rehiredin 2002, where you became vice
(18:27):
president and senior editor atAtria, which is giving high
demand.
So I'd love to learn a littlebit more about how you learned
about relationship building fromyour time in S&S and how did
you learn to not only buildrelationships but maintain
(18:48):
relationships over the years.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think fundamentally it's by being
genuine with people.
You know, I mean they're nicepeople and weird people and you
know, everywhere, and Igenerally like people.
So I'm going to lead in myinteraction with people, no
(19:11):
matter how superficial or how uhserious, I'll say the same way,
with respect and expectationthat I will receive that back.
You know it really does get.
You know it's manners, keep egoin check, you know, and I think
(19:33):
that that is important,especially where you're entering
foreign territory.
I was entering publishing, wasentering a very white world,
having left the womb of the HBCU, right, so I'm in this
corporate world and it's NewYork and everybody's so smart
(19:57):
and you know, so seeming soshort and and you know, and all
this, this sort of thing.
So you just kind of have toliterally, you know, just take a
breath, be yourself and do yourjob.
And one thing I learned fromthe womb and and a lot of black
and brown people learn from thewomb is how to work hard and
(20:18):
take direction and be polite.
You know what I mean.
We're.
We're raised, socialized toserve, you know.
In that way, the greaterchallenge, I think and for me,
is asserting ourselves to saywait a minute, I have a bigger
idea for you, okay, uh, andthat's where you have to relearn
(20:42):
.
I mean, rely on your, what youhave inside you, not your
degrees, not anything you know.
I think if you're confidentabout yourself and respectful,
then it doesn't guarantee thatyou're going to be treated nice
all the time, but it's going toguarantee that you attract.
(21:05):
You know a lot of who you areand those are other I've
encountered.
You know wonderful, brilliantpeople.
I've developed friendships andmentorship relationships with
people who were legends to mealready, heroes to me, you know.
So it's having faith inyourself in a relationship, but
(21:31):
also keeping cool and keepingcalm and not responding when
you're insulted Because you'renot being insulted.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, yeah.
There's another segment of theshow which is later on, which is
let's Do Better.
That's what I'm calling it nowand I want to highlight and talk
about some of those thingsbecause I know that a lot of
allies are listening to thisshow and, very similar to you
when I came into this industry,I have developed a lot of great
relationships with mentors,white mentors, who have helped
(22:05):
me, who have taught me what aP&L is, what a tip sheet, and
really have, you know, given meso much knowledge and wisdom in
this industry.
But on the flip side, you doencounter, I feel like, maybe a
lot of well-meaning white peoplebut maybe don't have the
self-awareness of the thingsthat they say and do, and
(22:26):
especially leaving the HBCU hub.
That was a huge culture shockfor me, you know.
Luckily, similarly to you, Igrew up in a very I'm from
Southern California, so I grewup in very diverse schools and
then I go from that to thengoing to HBCU, going to Clark
Atlanta University, and I wasaround my people all the time
and then I went from that to acompletely white industry and
(22:50):
that I feel like it for mepersonally.
It took me a few years to shakethat culture shock.
You know, luckily, in my day today my team is very diverse,
but when I have to go to tradeshows and sales conferences, I'm
reminded of the space in theindustry that I'm for a
corporate publisher who's aperson of color, who's dealing
(23:22):
with microaggressions everysingle day, what advice would
you give to him or to her on howto continue the marathon of
being in this industry whilealso having to balance the
microaggressions that exist inthe space?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, I think the first thing is just to take a
beat or two or three.
You can count to 10 if you hadthat much time you know,
literally take the breath andunderstand one, that somebody
(23:57):
else's view and opinion of you.
One, you can't control thatsomebody else's view and opinion
of you one you can't control.
Two is not even your business,but since somebody has imposed
their thing on you, that is notyour business what you think of
me.
Then you have to respond and Ibelieve in responding and
(24:21):
standing up for myself, butunderstanding that you have a
job, you know you have to feelin your gut, you know where your
boundaries are.
For example, I never.
(24:42):
There's some microaggressions,some insults I was never
subjected to, and I think partof it is that they just, you
know, just to put it in thestreet way, they do not have to
come for me that way, you know,like, for example, my appearance
(25:03):
, you know, just to put it in astreet way, they do not to come
for me that way, you know, like,for example, my appearance, you
know my appearance, meaninghaving natural hair from day one
.
You know, in the office, youknow it was like the hair has
been the hair, it's been thehair.
So how I dress, how Iaccessorize, you know it's been
(25:23):
that way.
And you know, I come from a deepculture and a long tradition of
being fly you know that's right.
You know what I'm saying.
Whatever the corporate and Imade a decision.
I consciously made the decisionto be myself, to do what I
(25:52):
would do, naturally in my ownworld, if these other people
didn't exist as much as possible, Because I was used to being in
a minority.
I was used to being aroundoverwhelmed by non-Black people.
You know, coming from EastTennessee, you know I was the
only Black girl in my graduatingclass of school.
I was used to that, which iswhy I got decided to go away
from that and the HBCU.
(26:12):
So when I come back to it, Iknow just to take a breath, mind
my manners and keep my earsopen, because I learned so much
from just letting somebody havetheir say, because often they're
not even talking to us.
You know it's people talking.
You know how people talk aboutyou and your presence.
(26:34):
For example, um, in the salesrep job, I remember two
potential.
You know they were collegeprofessors.
You know they were big deal,you know whatever supposedly on
their campus and they're lookingat me like I'm a marvel and
they say to each other in frontof me what accent is that?
(26:56):
What way of speaking is that?
And then I didn't jump in andtry to answer their question.
They thought, as far as I'mconcerned, they're not talking
to me.
They're like wasting my timebecause I need to make this.
You know presentation and moveon.
You're like I got another salespitch, let's keep it going yeah,
and then so they answer theirown question, because our
(27:20):
answers, even about ourselves,don't count anyway.
So one says, oh, that's it,that's an educated speech.
So OK, what's the surprise?
It's like saying, callingsomebody articulate, you know
what I mean.
Calling a black or brown person, or person otherwise
(27:41):
stereotyped, articulate.
So you have to just let peopleperform and not speak it
personally.
That's the biggest thing listen, observe everything, pay
attention, go away and sit withit and you'll have the answer is
(28:01):
how to respond.
Uh, yourself, and this is onlypersonal.
Nobody has to believe in this,but I don't think revenge is
very productive yeah and peoplecan take that however they want.
Yeah, do your.
(28:22):
The other thing I learned it, Iand and you know I don't want
to talk too much, but um isstand your ground and stay in
your position until you areready to leave or external
circumstances move you out,because nine times out of ten,
(28:42):
the people who are torturing you, um, often I'll say they're
going to leave the companybefore you do, even the boss.
You know, I've had people thatit's like, oh lord, please take
this person out of my life andthey're gone.
Yeah, but they did it orwhatever.
(29:03):
But you know, you, I haveoutlasted so many people I
didn't like.
I had a guy in my first year atSimon Schuster he was, he had
been there already for some time, but he was not a full editor,
he was still an assistant orassociate who, you know, took me
to lunch and said that hedidn't think that the company
(29:27):
was for me.
I haven't seen that guy in Idon't know 25, 30 years.
I ended up at that company for18 and a half years.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
And continue to move up that company for 18 and a
half years and continue to moveup.
And where did he go?
Where was he at?
But I think that's a greatpoint.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, he might be sitting on a billion.
That's another conversation.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
He might be the head of some bank in Europe for a
life Right or found a way toyeah, to get on the business
side, which I'm glad that youbrought up and I think, for
anyone listening or any personof color who's working in
corporate publishing, because Ithink corporate publishing,
independent publishing, whetheryou're a bookseller, there are
so many people that exist in theecosystem of the book world but
at some level, regardless ofwhat role you have, I think you
(30:18):
are going to come face to facewith people.
Of what role you have, I thinkyou are going to come face to
face with people and, honestly,just a culture that simply was
not built for us or built tosupport who we are.
But I love that you justencouraged the audience to.
What I heard is to not codeswitch and to show up as
yourself, but to listen and tobe attentive, because people are
(30:38):
going to tell on themselves and, like you said, that person may
not be in that same role or inthat same company and you may
outlast them.
And I'm glad that you mentionedthat because I'm curious to know
.
You spent a lot of your careeras an editor at trade and
corporate publishers but thenyou took a pivot and launched
your own literary firm.
(30:59):
So I'd love to learn about thedecision-making process of
leaving the ecosystem ofpublishing and editing and going
into being a literary agent.
What is an agent and why didyou make that pivot?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the first time I'mpivoted like that was when I
left Amistad.
Because Amistad, that was adream job for me, being a
founding editor at anindependent black owned and run
company.
It was a startup, that's juststartup companies or their own,
(31:33):
you know, ball of wax.
So I did that for about five,six years and then I left there.
So again, I'm leaving a jobvoluntarily.
Every time I've left a jobvoluntarily Simon and his sister
the first time.
Then Amistad, you know I leave.
I have to leave with some kindof income, a project or
(31:55):
something.
The first time it was to authora book and the second time it
was to create what I call bluemedia editorial services.
And I took it.
I dipped into agenting a littlebit, but I backed off.
It was a different time.
Fast forward to my 18 and a halfyear at Simon Schuster.
(32:23):
I'm laid off.
So there I had to regroup andthink of what I'm going to do as
an independent, because I'vealways believed in.
The other thing I think is goodfor you to have inside you is
to, if you have it, lose thefear of being unemployed.
(32:50):
Verify, okay.
And my answer to losing thefear of being unemployed was to
create income streams for myself, whether I got a new job or not
.
So I've always managed to dothat.
I am straight up Tennessee,african American, not Jamaican,
(33:11):
but three jobs.
Yeah, my family you know aswell, so you know I'm freed up
from corporate work once again.
I have to put somethingtogether.
I tell you I'm an agent reallybecause I love supporting other
(33:35):
writers.
I wouldn't be an agentotherwise.
You know it.
It can be fun, but it's veryrisky, it's very difficult, um,
it's very difficult to sustain.
You know, um, you're really outthere, which is why I have
three streams of income which isso smart yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, I know that, even as a business owner and as
a publisher, I'm learning thatand people have said this time
and time again.
I just am a little defiant and Ibelieve there's money in this
space, but people I don't knowif you've experienced this or
people have shared this to youbut people say you don't really
get into the book industry tomake money because there's not
much money to be made, Althoughwhen you look at the stats, it's
(34:23):
a $310 billion industryglobally and I think the US
alone brings anywhere from $25to $50 billion.
So the money is there, but Ithink for the people like us who
work in this space, we have tobe very creative on how we earn
our money and have to have allthese different streams of
revenue, because a lot of therevenue that's made in the
(34:45):
industry is being taken by thebig five and all of these
conglomerates.
So, with that being said, youcurrently are on the founding
team.
You're one of two executiveeditors at Awa Press, which was
founded by Questlove.
At Awa Press, which was foundedby Questlove, which is a
division and a parent companyunder Macmillan.
(35:06):
Tell us more about this imprint, how you come to work with
Questlove and what the imprintrepresents.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, you know well, the imprint represents a stream
inside the ecosystem of tradepublishing where you use public
figures, well-known people'splatforms, to promote to a
(35:32):
certain kind of reader.
Okay, there've been many ofthese kind of imprints for a
long time and they over timethey've included Black public
figures more and more.
For example, one of the earlyfamous names to have their own
(35:53):
imprint, biddy Sim as Simon andSchuster, you know.
He's had some kind of book andprinter program there now for oh
my goodness you know, probablyapproaching 20 years.
So you know that hip-hop iconyou know has been a player in
publishing with, uh, a label, asit were, his name, you, for a
(36:18):
long time, the.
What's your name?
Phoebe Robinson, two DopeChicks she has her imprint.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I know Charlamagne Tha God has his own imprint.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Has his, you know, at Adria.
So Amir Thompson having hisparticular but very broad
platform, you know, from latenight TV to music, you know
different kind of big fish, youknow with when you get down to
(37:15):
these celebrity branded imprints, celebrity branded imprints,
and Amir has that kind ofinterest.
He's a book person, you know.
He's a.
He's the combination of hipnessand nerdiness, you know, and he
reads so and he has ideas,obviously, many ideas about that
(37:38):
.
So they saw the Farage, straussand Giroux and the MCD division
of that, saw the wisdom.
And I'm throwing all of thesenames, you know, because I know
that you have professionallyinterested readers to signal.
(37:58):
You know what the map of theecosystem is, the corporate map
People talk about.
Were there just four or fivecompanies in publishing?
You know, but there's no senseof imprints and brand names, and
you know what I'm saying.
And in a woo is one of the, thenewer ones and that of that and
(38:21):
I love it because of itsuniqueness, represented by um
amir's broad taste in fiction,not fiction, he's not just about
music at all.
You know history, you know hispersonal story attached to the
clotilled, the slave ship thatwas unearthed.
(38:43):
You know he's come to realize,you know a personal connection
in the history space.
You know that way, the historyspace, you know that way.
So for me it's an excitingopportunity to do something a
little bit different from whatI've been doing in book
(39:05):
publishing now for decades.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
I'm curious to also to learn the business behind
Imprints, and I'm glad that youmapped it out for the listeners
out there, because I know a lotof times when people think big
publishers, they only think ofthe big five, but each big five
publisher has multiple dozens,if not I would maybe say
hundreds of imprints that existunderneath that company.
(39:31):
So let's say, a celebrity or aninfluencer out there is
listening and they're thinkingof starting a publishing venture
.
What does starting an imprintat a parent company or a big
five publisher look like?
Does that person own the rightsto their books?
Is that shared with the bigfive or with the publisher?
And what does the money looklike?
(39:53):
Does that imprint solelyresponsible for the funding of
their production or is that oneof the many benefits of being
with a larger publisher?
Is that they cover all thoseproduction costs?
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Yeah, all that's negotiable really, and each deal
has its own particularities,particular particularity.
(40:25):
Um, there is okay.
There's the, the traditionalpublisher author relationship
where you have a contract to doa books or books, plural and, um
, the the terms of royalties 10to 15 percent for hardcovers,
you know, against retail or net,traditional publishing, primary
(40:46):
rights, publication, subsidiaryrights, foreign rights, all
that kind of business.
Then you have the other kind ofrelationships that publishers
have with creatives and authorswhich could look like a joint
venture.
I've worked with at least oneauthor who had a joint venture
(41:13):
with their publisher, and tdjakes was that.
Well, you know, td jakes is hisown uh, empire, uh that kind of
thing.
So, um, that's a companypartnering with the company as
opposed to an individual imprint, yeah, yeah, or content, or
(41:36):
content creator for thepublisher.
So it can happen like that.
It can happen like indiepublishers, like Vicki Stringer
who had Triple Crown Press, apress like that and presses like
that have been invited, well,have been bought, you know,
(42:02):
larger publishing companies,just outright by those companies
and they become imprints.
That's what happened withAmistad.
Actually, you know, it was anindependent company when I was
with them I left and then a fewyears later Charles Harris sold
it to Harper Collins and thereit was.
So it happens different ways,you know.
(42:24):
So the business arrangement,how the principal person earns
money for that, is going todiffer to the person.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Yeah, thank you so much for breaking that down.
I know it can be very confusing, and a big reason why I wanted
to start this platform, thispodcast, it's to break down the
business behind the book,because I feel like the
publishing industry can be verysecretive.
It's not something that you canjust Google and find all of the
answers to, and soconversations like this and
(42:56):
breakdowns are really helpfulfor our audience.
And so, in short, there are somany different ways to be an
imprint under one of the bigfive.
I think for a lot ofindependent publishers we always
just think of we build up ourindependent publishing company
and then we sell it.
It's been acquired and that'sthe only way to be an imprint,
but there are so many differentbusiness models that exist for
(43:18):
that to happen.
But I'm glad that you mentionedyour time working at an
independent publisher and I'dlove to hear from you what do
you think are the advantagesthat independent book publishers
have that corporate publishersdon't?
Speaker 2 (43:41):
don't.
Well, the biggest one, I think,is that you don't have to
answer to people, um, who aren't, uh, as familiar with what you
do as you are.
You know, for example, ifyou're you're a parent company
and books, and you're owned by,uh, a company, a food
manufacturer, you know what Imean.
Somebody who's sellingbreakfast cereals and you know
loaves of bread, and, and it'shappened.
You know, at one point, simonand schuster was owned by, um,
(44:05):
this company it's probably goodthat I can't remember their
names, I haven't heard aboutthem, but they own sugar
plantations, you know, and haytea, you know.
In Haiti, you know, and MadisonSquare Garden.
You know what I'm saying.
These corporate alliances aren'talways between entities that do
the same kind of business, sothat can be a problem.
(44:26):
Simon Schuster's had a numberof owners and they were recently
owned by CBS.
They are right now.
So that was seen as an easieralliance because it was all
media.
Maybe yes, maybe no.
You know what I mean.
It depends on who's runningthese companies at the time.
(44:49):
You know it all gets down againrelationships.
You know the human beings, youknow behind this.
You know, and, and and acompany can't exist.
Simon and his sister startedfrom men who were publishing
crossword puzzles and grew intothis empire.
So things change, you know,over time, and and all of that
(45:14):
you know over time and all ofthat you know has to be
investigated to understand whatthe publishing business is
really about and how media isimpacted by things that we don't
associate with being media.
You know, like that person whohas you know, they want your
(45:36):
publishing company to be tiltedright wing because they're right
wing or left wing becausethey're left wing.
You know what I'm saying.
Ownership matters.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
It does and I'm so glad that you said that.
That was honestly a big reasonwhy I'm still doing this work as
an independent publisher.
I always say I got into it byaccident.
I self-published a book, thenstarted helping kids in my
community publish books and thatled into a publishing company.
But my initial reason forstarting a publishing company
(46:11):
wasn't because I wanted to be inthe industry and be a disruptor
.
It was, oh, I see a need for abook, I'm going to do it.
And then the more I learnedabout the industry, the more
that I realized oh, we needownership, we need more
Black-owned publishers.
It kind of goes back to ourconversation on imprints.
But I remember when I was firstentering into the industry I
would just read PW articles allday because that was like my
(46:33):
only gateway into the industry,and I would read about this
person who started an imprint.
And this person started animprint and I was like, oh, wow,
this is great, they're doingthe work.
And then a year would pass, twoyears would pass, and then it
would be radio silent and Iwould always ask myself it seems
like there are people who arestarting the work of starting
these publishing companies, butthen we don't hear from them
(46:54):
anymore, and it always goes backto ownership who owns that
publishing company, who ownsthat content?
Because they make the decisionson what goes and what doesn't,
and so, for anybody who'slistening, I hope that this is
encouraging you.
If you are thinking aboutstarting a publishing company or
currently are an independentpublisher.
Know that the work that we dois needed and is necessary,
(47:16):
because if we're not going to doit, who's going to?
I made a post a few weeks ago,um, and I was like there's
nobody coming to save us in thisindustry.
I don't think that it's mypersonal opinion.
I could get some flack on it,but I don't have trust in
institutions who weren't builtfor us to do the work required
(47:37):
to promote more diverse booksand to keep them long lasting,
and I think that the way that wesee that is by starting our own
.
So I'm just so inspired by youand so many other people who
have worked in the industry,because the experience that you
guys have is so necessary, andit's one of the things that I
feel like me, as an independentpublisher who never worked for a
(47:58):
publisher before, is the thingthat I'm missing, so loving this
conversation, and I know we'recoming up on time, but my last
question to you is you wear somany hats.
You are a developmental editor,a consulting editor, an agent, a
writer, an acquiring editor,and I know you've worn those
hats in different periods ofyour life.
(48:20):
But those are all skill setsthat you have.
So how do you balance that?
How do you know when it's timeto write a book just for you as
an author?
How do you know when it's timeto acquire a book and work with
an editor, and how do youbalance all of these skill sets
that you've acquired over theyears?
Speaker 2 (48:39):
You know it's hard to do.
You have to go with the flowand that sounds, you know, all
loosey goosey and all, but youhave a sense of when you're
taking on too much and sometimesimmediate circumstances make
(49:00):
the plan for you.
Yeah, okay, I have to say, mostof the books that I published,
it wasn't my idea to do it atthat time.
You know, somebody came to mewith an opportunity and then I
said oh so you know life, theuniverse can order things for
you, you know.
(49:20):
You just, it's like preparation, you just have to be prepared.
You have to, and how you getprepared in life, I think, is to
do what you really believe inand what you really like.
You know.
So baseball is your thing, youknow.
Then do continue doing thatwhile you do everything else.
(49:42):
And if you do that well, you'regoing to uncheck.
You know you're going to checkthe opportunity.
I love your story because youdid.
You did your self-study is whatyou would be guided toward if
you had done formal study, andwhat I mean by example is
(50:04):
reading PW religiously.
You know reading.
You know I love literature andyou know the classics.
I don't knock that anybody whowas a nerd in any aspect of that
respect.
However, that is not thebusiness of publishing.
(50:25):
But stay in that, becauseyou'll be the person who, in a
publishing company, creates,supports, makes successful a
publishing program around thatkind of literature.
You know.
Think of how many contemporaryworks of fiction have been
(50:48):
written inspired by Jane Austen,you know.
So if you're that, that kidwho's, you know what I'm saying.
So do everything.
Don't abandon your passions.
I think is the best way for meto put the advice.
If you're into fly fishing, ifyou're into hip hop, if you're
(51:11):
into R&B, between 1914 and 19,.
You know, whatever, stay there.
Do what you have to do to liveand keep your sanity and your
physical health, to take thatopportunity.
When you meet the publisher ofRandom House at a same
(51:36):
conference where they're lookingfor talent, you know what I
mean.
It's very within it's.
Have something you'repassionate about, because you
can't do.
Publishing is about everything,every topic in the world, the
whole universe of information.
(51:56):
So you have to find your length.
So you have to be passionateenough about something to go
deep in it, to become I don'tlike the word expert, but I'm
going to use it here for theinterest of the time but to
(52:22):
become an expert in that thing,in a language, in whatever,
especially your own, related toyour own story.
You know, whatever your past is, your roots are, it's going to
be fertile fodder for some kindof project related to your
profession.
Fertile fodder for some kind ofproject related to your
profession.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
You know whether you were dirt poor, you know coming
up as a kid, or you came up theson of Bill Gates.
Yeah, I love that you said flowand it's so funny that you
mentioned that.
At the start of each year, Ipick a word to just ground
myself in for that year, and yousaid both of them.
One of them was flow and theother was rooted.
And the reason why flow is oneand I love that you talked about
that is because differentopportunities present themselves
(53:08):
at different times.
There could be a season.
There was a season of your lifewhere you were an editor, you
were an acquiring editor, andthen you were called to write
and to let your creativity justrun free and to be a writer in
that moment.
And so I think that, for thepeople listening out there, and
for even myself, remindingourselves that flow is okay,
(53:29):
because I think, especially forsomeone like me I'm a Virgo, so
I'm like, if this is the mission, this is all I'm focusing on I
have tunnel vision.
I don't see nothing else, Idon't hear nothing else, but
having that flow, it's soimportant because you never know
what opportunity is going topresent themselves.
And I think being in a state offlow, it's your fluid.
You're able to move with thechange, and things are always
(53:51):
changing.
It's the only constant, and soI'm so glad that you said that
and I'm so glad that we sharedthis time together.
My very last question andsegment of the show is and this
is new y'all, so it may change,but for right now it's called
let's Do Better, because I knowthat there are a lot of allies
that are listening and I wantthis to be a learning experience
for everybody.
(54:12):
And so my question to you iswhat is the craziest thing that
has happened to you or has beensaid to you while working in
this industry?
An example and I can go first isI remember going to a
publishing conference forpublishers for small to
mid-sized publishers and a manwho will not be named, seen
(54:34):
Cause I go to these conferencesall the time, and so I think
this time I had braids and so hecomes up to me and like, grabs,
like, and not just like onebraid, like he grabs a grip of
my braids and is like is thisall your hair?
Your hair grew so much from thelast time I seen you.
I didn't, I didn't know.
And he's like continuing totouch my braid.
And I'm just sitting in thisconference room across from this
(54:57):
white man awkwardly standing ashe's touching my hair and I'm
just like, no, it's not, but Iwas just so amazed that he felt
so comfortable to come and touchmy hair in that way.
So I say all that to say, malik, I'd love to hear from you what
has been a story or a momentthat stands out to you that has
happened in this industry.
Speaker 2 (55:17):
I have one of those hair stories.
I have two of those hairstories, you know, and I'm not
going to repeat them becauseit's the same Somebody,
physically, you know, invadesyour space, your body, and in my
case it's women, one in theoffice and one who saw me in the
(55:39):
street, who worked at a wholeother division, who had zero, we
had zero contact.
That person also tried to hireme, bring me on just a few years
ago, and that was a hard no,that kind of thing.
You know, leah, the list is isso long and I try not to, um,
(56:11):
keep the laundry list, you know,at top stuff, sometimes it's
not even what they say, but whatthey do, like exclude you from
a meeting, you know.
Well, one of the things thatcome to mind is one of the
things that I've suffered fromand I use that term suffered
(56:35):
loosely is people in theindustry apologizing, low-key
apologizing for not letting meknow about certain opportunities
, job-wise, project-wise,because I have one group that
say, oh, you know you're soupmarket, suggesting that
(56:59):
because I've signed, quoteliterary writers, you know,
maurice Condé, or somebody youknow that I wouldn't be
interested in a commercialwriter, or something like that,
which is ridiculous if you lookat my record if you know
anything about me professionallyand not just dealing with some
superficial rumor.
(57:19):
Then there's another set ofpeople who, because I had
published great and successfulworks of urban fiction and
erotica, have said to me um, Ithought you only published trash
(57:39):
.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
Yeah, you see so that's when we have to take the
the 10, 10 seconds of a deepbreath.
If you have time in that momentto gather yourself, yeah.
How do you respond to like?
How do you respond to that?
Speaker 2 (57:58):
well, it depends on who the person is.
Sadly, I have to say, thatperson was a black male, uh,
bookshop owner, and so I tookthem over to our booth in BA,
because that's where we were thebook expo, right, the big trade
show.
So I said, well, because that'swhat I was doing with this
(58:19):
person.
Anyway, I was attempting tolure them over to look at the
books.
You know that I had coming upanyway, so I just took him over
and you know this is what I'mdoing.
You know, whatever you want tocall it, this is who are?
These are my authors thisseason?
Uh, because one, I'm not goingto let somebody lure me into a
(58:45):
fight.
You know the different ways tofight, you know.
You know I'm inspired by theninja ways to fight, you know,
as opposed to the, you know,freeze my face up, take my
earrings off, you know, typething.
But all of those, you know,grabbing the hair, saying
(59:11):
something inappropriate, lookingat you inappropriately.
You know there's also the flipside of the insult, where, you
know, once there was an occasionthat my co-workers were trying
to buy me a present and so oneof my realer friends, white
(59:35):
friends in the office, she waslike.
She said it was such adiscussion about what to get me
because they were leaning towardjewelry and you know I wear
what I wear.
You know black artisans and youknow I look how I look and
somebody says no, how I'd lookand and and somebody says no,
(01:00:02):
she has her own jeweler becausethey'd heard me talk about and
went in a way I did.
You know, brother actually fromAtlanta, juju, you know from
Atlanta.
You know, brother from DC, thegoldsmith.
You know what I mean.
So it gets down to peopletrying to be nice, as Chris Rod,
you know, say the nice whitepeople.
(01:00:22):
You know, and she has her ownjeweler.
You know, which is hilarious tome Also, I don't think I said
anything about a sense of humoris I don't say don't do anything
, but if you're not a black,brown person with a sense of
humor, do not get in thebusiness of publishing.
Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
You're going to need it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Yeah, but beware if you laugh too animated a way you
know, like Kamala, you knowthey're going to talk about you
too.
Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
They're going to find something to talk about either
way.
But I think that's why thehumor is important, because the
humor is for us, it's notnecessarily for you.
It's one of the strategies wehave to keep on going and to
stay focused on the prize.
So that's a great note to end.
On Malika, thank you so muchagain for joining me in this
conversation and for honestlyjust opening up your arms to me
(01:01:29):
since the first time we met andbeing willing to give me
information and resources and toengage in these conversations.
I know it's helped me so muchand I really hope that it's
helped our listeners out there.
But feel free to please tell uswhere people can follow you and
follow your books or anyupcoming projects that you want
to share with people before weget out of here.
Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
Well, the agency website is adarosliteratribecom,
so you can keep up there andyou can send me messages there.
And if you're interested inbeing on my newsletter mail list
, which is occasional I don't do, like you know, regular per
month then please.
(01:02:13):
But thank you so much, leah.
You know you're helping me, youknow and have helped me already
, so I look forward to theongoing development of the
ecosystem.
Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
I love that.
I love that.
Well, thank you so much.
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