December 21, 2025 ⢠41 mins
đ§ Episode Summary:
In this powerful and deeply human episode of the Bold and Brilliant Podcast, host Tracie Root sits down with Jen Vertanen, Chief of Staff at a health-tech startup and founder of We The Unruly. Jen shares the bold, vulnerable decision that reshaped her life, her marriage, and her relationship with herself.
Through an honest conversation about identity, healing, leadership, and community, Jen reveals how doing the inner workânot just the strategic workâcreated the clarity, confidence, and impact she lives and leads with today. This episode is a masterclass in courage, self-trust, and choosing alignment over performance.
If youâve ever questioned your path, your choices, or who youâre becoming⌠this episode will remind you that bold decisions donât always look flashyâbut they do change everything.
⨠What Youâll Learn in This Episode:
- Why admitting youâre wrong can be one of the most courageous leadership moves youâll ever make
- How identity work fuels clarity, confidence, and sustainable success
- The role community plays in healing, growth, and bold reinvention
- Why âfinding your wayâ matters more than following someone elseâs formula
- How vulnerability strengthens relationshipsâin life and in business
đ ď¸ Actionable Tips from Jen Vertanen:
- Create intentional âmirrorsâ in your lifeâpeople who can reflect truth back to you when self-doubt shows up
- Stop outsourcing your answers and start building trust in your own inner wisdom
- Give yourself permission to evolve without a deadlineâidentity work is ongoing
- Choose environments (work, community, relationships) that support who youâre becoming
- Lead with depth, not performanceâreal impact comes from authenticity
đ¤ Memorable Quote:
"Find your mirrors and use themâso you can remember who the hell you are."
đĽ Bold Moment of the Episode:
Jen shares the moment she realized she was about to make a life-altering mistakeâand chose radical honesty and vulnerability instead. Admitting she was wrong became the turning point that led to healing, deeper connection, and a decade of intentional identity work.
đą Connect with Jen Vertanen:
- We The Unruly Community & Movement: (links in show notes)
- Instagram: @jenv_wetheunruly
- Website: wetheunruly.com
đ Join the Bold and Brilliant Podcast Community:
If this episode sparked something in you, come join us inside The Gather Communityâa space for women leaders and entrepreneurs who are ready to take bold action, build meaningful connections, and grow into their next chapter together.
đ Learn more at thegather.community
đ Rate & Review:
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â Rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platformâand donât forget to share this episode with a friend who needs the reminder that their bold moment might be closer than they think.
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xoxo
Your host,
Tracie Root
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tracie (00:00):
Are you ready for a bold conversation about identity,
impact and becoming more of whoyou really are?
In today's episode of the Boldand Brilliant Podcast, I sit
down with Jen Vertanen, founderof We The Unruly, a community
and movement for impact makerswho are done with performative
perfection and ready to leadwith truth.
(00:22):
Jen shares the pivotal, deeplyvulnerable decision that changed
everything.
One that required her to admitshe was headed down the wrong
path, choose courage over ego,and begin a decade long journey
of healing and identity work.
You'll hear how redefiningstrength, finding the right
support and creating powerfulmirrors in community can help
(00:44):
you remember who you are,especially when self-doubt
creeps in.
If you're building amission-driven business or life,
and you're craving deeperalignment, clearer self-trust,
and a way forward, that actuallyfeels like you, this episode is
gonna land in all the rightplaces.
Welcome to the Bold andBrilliant podcast.
(01:04):
Jen, I am way, I'm probably waytoo excited to welcome you to
the podcast.
I'm so glad to have you.
Jen (01:11):
Thank you so much.
Uh, I don't know if you're moreexcited than I am though.
Tracie (01:16):
Well, okay.
Well, we'll just kind of bothsit here in that excitement
moment.
I have to say that for those ofyou who are watching on YouTube,
don't we just love Jen's' freshlike self of the pink.
But with the sweater especially,I am such a fan of your style.
It's so fun.
Oh, thank you to, it's fun toobserve as someone who's been
pink and like does also the boldpersona.
(01:40):
Mm-hmm.
That to see other people show upthat way, it's like, oh yeah.
People might get a little bit ofthat from me too, so that's fun.
Jen (01:46):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Tracie (01:49):
I love it.
Okay, Jen?
Well, we have been talking aboutdoing this for a while and we've
been in each other's universesprobably for the last year-ish,
I would say.
Jen (02:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Tracie (02:00):
Something like that.
Um, and hadn't met in personuntil earlier this year.
Yep.
October online.
I've been a part of you kind ofcreating this new we, the unruly
community philosophy, likemm-hmm.
The way of being in the worldthat helps everyone recognize
(02:24):
that there's no box that we allhave to fit in.
Like there, like we don't haveto not only not fit in a box,
but there's no box.
Like, forget it.
Jen (02:33):
Yeah.
And for those listening in, uh,sometimes those who don't think
they live in boxes, um, needreminders, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I say that I need it just asmuch as anyone else.
Tracie (02:44):
Well, and that's why we create what we create, right?
Mm-hmm.
So that we not only get thething that we need, but after
thinking about what we need,bringing that to other people to
help them realize that it's okayto need this thing and join the
other people who also need it.
And now we're all together.
Absolutely.
We get to have a party.
Yep.
(03:05):
So, and even though you've beencreating all of this, all this
year.
You and have been anentrepreneur for a while.
How long?
Jen (03:16):
Uh, 14 years.
But let's, let's 14 years.
Let's, let's say entrepreneurish.
For 14 years
Tracie (03:22):
we've had a thing of your own.
Yes.
How that that is correct.
For about 14 years.
Yep.
Which is about the same as me.
I'm met like 13 and a halfyears, so we're, we're in a
similar vein, but the differenceis you still work in the real
world of the corporatesituations.
And I do.
And I departed.
Probably not Advisably, so, um,when I started as well.
(03:44):
But, so let's talk a little bitabout you and like what you do
outside of Jen Vertanen andimagining coach We The Unruly
situation mm-hmm.
That got you to deciding to makethat, that.
This community that you nowhave.
So tell us like your originstory.
What's the other part of youthat we might not see every day
(04:07):
and how'd you get here?
Jen (04:08):
Oh, goodness.
Uh, well, there's a, the, thecorporate side of me and I'm an
odd duck in that I love my dayjob.
Like, and you don't hear peoplesay that a lot, which yeah,
makes my heart hurt.
Tracie (04:20):
Well, it makes me happy for you.
Jen (04:22):
Well, yeah, happy for me.
Yeah, absolutely.
But I, I think of it as I have aunicorn role in a leadership,
uh, a unicorn leadership team, aunicorn company, just everything
aligned.
That's why I love it.
But I'm chief of staff of thecoolest health tech startup,
and, um, what that means is, youknow, I heard cats, uh, they're
(04:42):
Wiley.
Unruly cats, if you will.
Uh, but I love'em so much.
But what brought,
Tracie (04:47):
how big is the staff that you're herding?
Jen (04:50):
Well, I mean, I, so I'm not over all the staff and I'm not
over anyone.
Actually.
I, I get to play Switzerland.
Um, so it's a small company, butwhat I wanna share is.
That is from three plus decadesin IT software development,
specifically project management.
So I tried to be a developer fora little bit and then, you know,
(05:12):
I wasn't very good at that, so Imoved into business analysis and
then project management and, andyou know, on up and what have
you.
Tracie (05:19):
Yeah.
Honestly, this is why we getalong so well.
Yeah.
We always get along with the ITproject managers.
I was gonna say, because thatwas the facilities project
manager.
Jen (05:27):
Right, right, right.
Tracie (05:28):
We had to work together, right?
Jen (05:30):
Yep, yep.
Tracie (05:31):
Okay.
So keep going.
That's, that's amazing.
Yeah.
Jen (05:33):
But you know, in 2011, I, um, I left my then job, um, and
I was like, I'm not working forthe man and you know, blah,
blah, blah.
All this false bravado andconfidence and.
My mom funny.
Funnily enough, she was reallyembarrassed that I was leaving
and she told people, she toldmy, my former classmates that I
(05:54):
had retired and I didn't learnabout that till years later.
I'm like, mom?
She's like, well, I didn't knowwhat to tell people.
I was so embarrassed.
I'm like, okay.
Uh, so I left that the job, thecorporate, she was embarrassed.
'cause
Tracie (06:06):
you chose to leave.
Yes.
Like cushy unadvisedly.
So.
Jen (06:11):
Probably.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Um, but anyway, I, I was movinginto, I had learned about
coaching.
And I thought, well, I coach andmentor in my day job, so let's
try that out.
Right?
Um, but what, what happened isI, I slipped into a very, one of
probably my deepest depressionsthat I've ever had, and it, it
(06:34):
lasted for a number of months.
And so even though I, and thisis why I say false bravado,
right?
On the outside, I looked like,yeah, I've got this, you know,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
People are excited for me.
I needed the time and space tohave what I now is probably a,
a, a nervous breakdown a littlebit at the time of breakdown.
(06:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that set me on the path ofexploring, coaching, and doing
it from my own business.
And the deeper I got into it,the more I loved it.
And the part of, you know, I sayentrepreneurial ish, is that I
had the belief that this wassomething I could absolutely do
and do from a sustainablebusiness perspective.
(07:16):
Um, but what I hadn't realized,and of course hindsight is such
a gift, what I hadn't realizedis I had so much trauma and
wounds from childhood, from, youknow, young adulthood that I
needed to work on the, I neededto do the inner work first.
Before I was really ready toleap into what people see now,
which is, you know, strategicCEO of my business, making big,
(07:39):
bold moves, um, you know,rubbing elbows with all the cool
people and, and all of that.
But it, you know, it's, it wasnot an overnight success, let's
say that.
Tracie (07:48):
I think that that is not uncommon, right?
Yeah.
Like we have that drive to dosomething for ourselves, for
our, our own, uh, you know, tokind of be in charge of our own
future.
Yeah.
And.
Maybe it's a, you know, gen Xthing Right.
Also that we wanna, you know,we're,
Jen (08:07):
we're feral to be good with,
Tracie (08:09):
we wanna be in charge of our shit, right?
Yeah.
So, um, and then to just standup and go, okay, well I can do
that.
Mm-hmm.
And go do it.
Yeah.
Without really being prepared,right?
Like with ski, with, with thedetails of the business, but
also,
Jen (08:25):
yeah.
I call it emotional maturity.
Tracie (08:28):
Too bad we were 40 or whatever.
I,
Jen (08:31):
yeah, yeah, exactly.
Tracie (08:33):
Yeah.
Okay.
So.
So you started coaching, butmm-hmm.
You also found a new position.
Jen (08:40):
I did.
After 15 months of, uh, notingfor the man, uh, some stuff was
going on with my youngest and wedecided to move her into private
school education and we just, Iwas not bringing in near enough
to, to be able to support that,and it really was the right
thing for our family to do.
Um, and so I went back into theworkforce, but.
(09:03):
I went in with a new set ofboundaries.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, and this, it wasn'tintentional.
It's like I, in, I inherentlyknew.
Um, but a new set of boundariesand a new, what am I willing,
what type of environment am Iwilling to work with?
What type of, you know, manageram I willing to work with?
Um.
(09:23):
What am I not right?
And you know, being in it atthat time it was, it was, you
know, a privilege to be able tohave that be able to, to.
Leave something if it wasn'tworking for me.
And I wanna acknowledge noteveryone has that.
Um, no, I would say it thesedays is very different, but back
(09:43):
in those days, you didn't haveto worry about landing a new gig
like, like that.
Tracie (09:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, especially with the kindof experience that you had in
your pocket.
Mm-hmm.
And the years of Exactly.
Being able to, what you werebringing to the table.
Jen (09:56):
The relationships I had built.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
Tracie (10:00):
Awesome.
Um, and then so, okay, so youdecided, so you got this new
position, you were able to sendyour child to the school that
you needed to do, and then therewas some more family things that
really became an upheavalmoment.
Yeah.
Again, potentially didn't, yes.
Did.
Tell us a little bit about,because for everyone that's on
(10:22):
the podcast, I wanna know, likewe all make decisions.
All the time that, especially inhindsight as you've been talking
about, we can see how our trackshifted at that moment with that
decision.
And so that was a big decisionto take that job.
Mm-hmm.
In order to do what you neededto do for your child and for
your family.
(10:43):
Tell us more.
Yeah, so 2015, uh, things reallycame to a head for me
personally.
And, uh, what, so I would, I was45 at the time, and.
I had not dealt with the innerstuff from, like I said, the
trauma, the wounds, what haveyou, all the, you know, I Hmm.
(11:05):
Not to get, I mean, I, I will gointo it.
Absolutely.
I'm an open, but, but how muchtime do we wanna take?
Right, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But suffice it to say, um, I wasraised, uh, being told I wasn't
a very good person.
I, you know, just, it was deathby a thousand paper cuts.
Right.
And it's heartbreaking, but it'salso not an uncommon story.
(11:26):
Yeah, right.
Unfortunately.
But it was death by a thousandpaper cuts and I always took on
the role of I'm the warrior, I'mhere to protect, uh, my mom, my
brother, um, you know, and it'sjust all it did was built up all
these walls and, you know, overthe years and it's that outside
looking in, it looks good,right.
(11:48):
The inner.
My inner, uh, painted a verydifferent picture that was
angry, resentful, bitter, heart,aching, loneliness.
I did not like myself.
I did not like my life.
I had so much when I looked atmy family.
I, I loved my husband.
But he almost became the effigy,if you will, of it's like he
(12:12):
wasn't fixing for me what Ineeded.
Yeah.
What I needed him.
So now he's the wrong one.
He is, yeah.
He is in the wrong, and so the,up until that point, I had done
all sorts of things to, youknow, healthy and healthy to, to
try to fix myself, my life.
And he was the one thing that Ihadn't.
Tried yet.
And that was to leave him.
(12:32):
And I thought, you know, I, Igot pregnant at 19, so I, at
that point I'd been raisingbabies for, you know, 25 years.
I, I had my first at 20, uh, andthis was, I was 45.
And it felt like the, the lastthing I could try to try to fix
myself and give myself thatfreedom I, I craved, right?
(12:53):
Like I can just.
Not have to worry about anyone.
I'll get my my kids part of thetime.
I won't have a spouse, you know?
All of this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And again, on paper it seemslike a, an answer that could
work.
It was like, no, duh.
Yeah.
And what I, what I, again,hindsight, this is how bad it
was, is I was telling people Ilove him, but maybe when we're
(13:15):
in our seventies, we can remarryagain.
I would find, um, I would findarticles like stories of people
who had actually done that.
Right.
And I'd present them to him and.
Yeah.
Like, see, people have made thiswork and he was like, that's not
what I want, Jen.
That's not what I want.
You know, I, if I, I love you,but if we're gonna be together,
(13:35):
we're gonna like, we're gonna betogether, or I'm gonna move on,
you know, blah, blah, blah.
Yeah.
Uh, and so I, I had thisdecision that I'd made, and
again, this false bravado andconfidence, um, but this was my
persona.
This is what I was used to,right?
I was the one who made big, boldmoves, decisions, all of that.
I even, I'm just gonna do it.
(13:56):
Just gonna do it.
Yep.
Jen (13:59):
I even had an apartment that I had paid a couple of
months rent on, and I wasn'tliving there yet, but I was
starting to furnish it.
So the night we told, or the daywe told our, our daughter who
was 11 at the time, she was thelast kiddo at home.
Um, it was it.
A very hard day, as you canimagine.
Yeah.
Um, and that night I went to bedand it was just over and over
(14:21):
and over again.
Well, I tried to go to bed, butover and over it was like, you
don't want this, you don't wantthis.
You're making a mistake.
You wanna Right.
And, and the plan was that, thatnext day I was actually gonna
move into the apartment.
But all that night, over andover, that's all I heard.
You're making a big mistake.
So my husband woke up the nextmorning and I, I shared with him
(14:42):
and that.
Was so incredibly difficultbecause that was a level of
vulnerability.
Mm-hmm.
Oh
Tracie (14:50):
yeah.
Were you, were you admittedYeah.
That you were rethinking yourdecision Yeah.
That you had made?
Jen (14:56):
Yeah.
Wow.
Sorry, I gotta wipe my nose alittle bit.
It's chilly here in Minnesota.
Uh, but it was, you know, oh.
And to show I felt like theweakest person.
Um.
But it's like I had to do thisfor myself because I realized I
was making such a big mistake.
I, it was so bad inside my headthat I was willing to walk away
(15:20):
from the person who had onlyever had my back, who had only
ever loved me.
Like he, he was the person wholoved me no matter what.
Tracie (15:32):
Yeah.
And so
Jen (15:33):
who saw through the stories, who saw through.
The things I did and you know,the behavior because I, again, I
was kind of this tough exteriorof a shell and he, he saw the
potential in me and loved me nomatter what.
So
Tracie (15:49):
that's so wonderful.
That's such, thank you.
It's a great story.
And so like you thought thatmaking a change with him was
going to fix
Jen (16:00):
Yeah.
I'll have the freedom.
What is
Tracie (16:02):
going on in here?
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and to admit that to hisface.
Yeah.
After all the discussions thatyou'd already had.
That's so brave and amazing.
Mm-hmm.
And so like, what was the nextstep?
Like,'cause this is a big, thisis a big fork in the road.
You were about to, to move outand you didn't move out.
(16:24):
And, you know, did he know thatyou were paying for that
apartment?
Well,
Jen (16:28):
yes.
Yes.
Tracie (16:30):
Yeah.
Jen (16:30):
Yep.
Uh, yeah.
It, you know, what happenednext?
It was, it was, it was hard totell him.
That was definitely a bravemoment.
But getting myself to admit tomyself Yeah.
That I was making a mistake thatwas even harder.
Yeah, of course.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So the next step is we said,okay, before we tell our
(16:51):
daughter, and, you know, the,the other kiddos, the, um, the
ones who are outta the house,we're gonna take a week.
We wanna make sure this isn'tlike a knee jerk emotional, but
you don't really, really meanit.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, uh, so that's what we did.
And we just, we talked a lot.
Right.
And we agreed that.
We're going to go to marriagecounseling just to learn how to
(17:13):
communicate with each otheragain.
Right?
And, um, and so that is what wedid.
We, you know, and he said, if westay together, you, you are
promising you will not do thisagain.
Um, you know, and I made thatpromise, but also what I was
going through was the guilt of.
Telling our, our family, right?
(17:35):
The, our, our young daughter athome and the two older kiddos
and our friends and our extendedfamily.
I had put people through this.
And so I carried a lot of guiltaround that, of course, that I
had to untangle and unwind andmake peace with that and, and
(17:56):
what have you.
Uh, yeah, 2015 was, you know, Istarted the year I, I knew that
I was, um, planning on, ondivorcing and I started the year
I, all my passwords was 2015 ismy year, and it did become my
year, but in very differentways.
Yeah.
Tracie (18:12):
So that's wild.
So in telling the family and theextended family and the friend
and, you know, you had that,that decision to, to make the
vulnerable admission to yourhusband Yeah.
That you knew that you werewrong.
Jen (18:28):
Yeah.
Tracie (18:29):
And now you had to tell everyone else that you were
Jen (18:31):
wrong.
Yeah.
Oh, Tracie, you told the
Tracie (18:33):
entire planet of your world that you were wrong.
Jen (18:36):
That was so hard.
Like had that ever happenedbefore?
No, not like that.
Right.
I mean, even when I got up prepregnant at 19, you know, I, I
You were like, yeah, it wasquiet.
Know?
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
It, you know, yeah.
It was, it was an interestingtime, you know, and there was a
lot of.
What I didn't realize.
So I did not grow up in a safe,what I'd call a safe family,
(18:58):
right?
For all sorts of reasons.
But when I became a mom, it wasvery important to me that I did
not bring, you know, thosethings forward, right?
And so my daughter.
The only world she ever knew washer mom and dad and her brothers
and such safety.
Yeah.
(19:18):
Right.
That's all she knew.
And I was gonna rip that outfrom her underneath her because
I wasn't thinking about it fromher perspective.
And so then it's the guilt overbeing selfish, right?
Yeah, of
Tracie (19:31):
course.
Jen (19:32):
All of that.
Tracie (19:33):
Yeah.
And with her being 11,
Jen (19:34):
yeah.
You know, that's still
Tracie (19:36):
very young, very formative years.
Very like hard to understandadult things, even though they
think absolute that they're 20.
Jen (19:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tracie (19:44):
Yeah.
Amazing.
So, okay, so you said 2015 isgonna be your year?
Jen (19:49):
Yep.
Tracie (19:50):
It became your year.
Jen (19:51):
It did.
Tracie (19:52):
How so?
Like what?
Ooh, what happened next?
Jen (19:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we decided our, our middleone had graduated high school
and we decided we were going tomove and we wanted to move into
the city and.
The house we we bought thatwe're still in now it, it has
these, it's a 1905 VictorianFoursquare, but it has beautiful
hardwood and yeah, it has thesecreaky wood floors.
(20:17):
Okay.
And the realtor was like, oh.
And I'm like, no, I actuallylove these.
Because it brought me back tofeel of when I did feel safe in
my childhood.
And that was at mygreat-grandmother's house.
She had creaky wood floors.
And so I like to think of thishouse as it is the home.
That, that held me as I washealing.
Mm-hmm.
And now I know exactly what homefeels like.
Tracie (20:41):
Oh,
Jen (20:41):
this gets me a little, Hmm.
That's
Tracie (20:43):
so beautiful.
Jen (20:43):
I know what home feels like.
So wherever I go from now on, itdoesn't matter the place.
I know the feeling of home.
Yeah, it gets me a littleemotional.
Tracie (20:53):
Beautiful.
I love that.
Yeah.
So, okay, so you moved into thisnew house.
Yes.
You moved into the city.
Jen (20:59):
Yep.
Yep.
And you know, it's, I like tosay it was 10 years of identity
work of, you know, I don't likewho I've been, I don't really
know who I am.
And this goes a little bit to myhuman design, FYI, that the not
know it, but I didn't know thatat the time.
Which is Which is what?
Well, I'm a six two manifestinggenerator, but the only center I
have undefined is my.
(21:20):
I think it's the g it's youridentity center.
And so it's like, oh, no wonder.
I dunno, I don't know enough toreally even know what you're
talking
Tracie (21:27):
about, but now it's documented.
And when I learned, there we go.
I know.
Jen (21:30):
There we go.
Um, but it was like, I don'tlike who I've been, I don't know
who I am.
And so it, the question became,who do I wanna be?
And my work has been for myself,has been becoming that person.
Yeah.
So 2015 was, it literally wasthe start of that, you know,
and, and some people might belistening and be like, oh my
gosh, a decade.
(21:52):
My argument is I get to havethis the rest of my life.
Yeah.
Like why would I not if you, youknow, if I had set out and made
this into a smart goal and triedto assign a time to it, you
know, and if a year went by andI wasn't, you know, and I'd give
it up, I'm like, no, I get tohave this the rest of my life.
Tracie (22:11):
You know, identity work isn't.
It's always evolving, so there'snothing you can, you can put a
timeframe to, I'm going to, youknow, go through this process
for this next year.
Right.
But ultimately it's the kind ofthing where you say, and we'll
see where we are then.
Jen (22:27):
Yeah.
And maybe go on
Tracie (22:29):
from there because, and Tracie, I don't, I
Jen (22:31):
don't know if you know why I have pink hair.
No, tell me.
Okay.
So when I, I had this vision andwhen did that, when did you
start?
Well, it was a couple years ago,but if we go back to 2015, and
I, you know, I, I, I, I sawthese two paths of this bitter,
old, resentful, angry woman thatno one wanted to come to my
(22:52):
funeral.
My children didn't wanna, andthat felt like a very real path
that I was headed down.
And then I saw the, the otherside of what, like people would
see in me.
Right?
Funny, you know.
Sparkle in my eye, like all ofthose things.
And I'm like, that's who I wannabe more of.
Right?
My 80-year-old self who's likegetting into all sorts of
(23:12):
shenanigans.
So anyway, fast forward a fewyears and I'm on Pinterest.
I, I love, I love photos ofbeautiful older women.
I love that.
Like I, um, I just love it.
And I saw this woman with pinkhair in her eighties and I'm
like, oh.
I want pink hair in my eighties.
And then I was like, well, wait,why can't, you know, 52-year-old
(23:33):
Jen have pink hair?
And so that's how the pink haircame to be.
Tracie (23:36):
Yeah.
I love that.
Amazing.
And that, it's a similar story,right?
When I mm-hmm.
Was in, I actually started withteal and Okay.
Through all of the differentcolors.
Um, but, uh, but I started, alsostarted small because I saw
someone on stage speaking at anevent that I was at with full
mermaid.
Jen (23:55):
Ooh.
Situation.
I love mermaid hair.
And she's
Tracie (23:57):
like a former, like military.
I don't know if she was a marineor what she was, but she was
badass.
So great on stage, like reallyinspirational.
And I was just like, that'sawesome.
That is, yeah.
And I want some.
And that's when I started doingmy hair.
Yeah.
But for me it's been 10 years.
Jen (24:15):
Okay.
Tracie (24:16):
Of their variety until I decided to be curly.
And then I'll let the curls dotheir,
Jen (24:21):
do their talking.
I love your curly hair.
The um, the reason I have avintage motorcycle jacket from
the early eighties is because Isaw a photo of, you know, again,
this older woman probably in herseventies, eighties.
And I'm like, I want a vintageleather jacket.
You know?
Yeah.
And so it's a lot of theexternal, but it's all a
(24:42):
reflection of the internal Yes.
Right.
Tracie (24:45):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, we say, andthat's, you know, I got asked a
lot like, why, why do you havepurple hair, pink hair, whatever
color it was at the time?
And it's like, yeah.
Part of it is, I, I enjoy beingcenter of attention, honestly.
Yeah.
Like, you know, being on stageand being a performer and all
those things.
And it's like the.
(25:05):
It's the bold self.
Mm-hmm.
Like growing out of your hairfollicles.
Like it's, yeah.
It's seeping through your pores.
Jen (25:12):
Yeah.
To
Tracie (25:13):
become and to show like who you are on the inside, on
the outside.
Right.
Even though it's an external.
Application'cause.
Right.
Unfortunately, we weren'tactually born with the colors in
our hair.
Jen (25:25):
Well, I, well,
Tracie (25:27):
okay.
Tracie was
Jen (25:28):
with
Tracie (25:28):
I know, but I was born with the curls, so I love that.
I love that.
But you know, I used to have avery bright, it's really who you
are.
Not that you're trying to showoff, but that it's just Right.
You feel more you and remind youthat you're,
Jen (25:41):
yeah.
You know, recently I asked myuncle at Thanksgiving, what was
I like as a little kid, like atfive, because I don't remember.
He's like, you were very gigglyand playful, and that was such a
gift to hear that 50 yearslater, because that's like the
inner kiddo has come out.
Mm-hmm.
Because she is healed enough.
Tracie (26:02):
Yay.
Yeah.
Awesome.
I love it.
Okay, so.
That's amazing.
I love all of this story.
And so you're working in yourjob.
You're, it's a lot, Tracie.
It's a lot.
Right.
You're working in that, thatregular job, you, you're still
coaching.
You got the new house.
This is 10 years ago.
When did the idea of creating Wethe unruly begin?
(26:27):
Yeah.
And like tell us about thatjourney.
Jen (26:29):
Yeah, so I've always known there was this umbrella.
That I wanted my work to, to fitunder.
I didn't wanna be coach Jen.
I wanted this umbrella, but Ididn't have words for it.
Right?
But I knew it was there.
So April 15th, 2025, uh, my 15fifth birthday, I sit with
(26:50):
myself and I'm like, where am Inot giving?
W what do I really, really,really want?
And I've asked myself thatbefore.
I love that question.
And this time the answer finallycame for the umbrella.
And, uh, it's been magical eversince.
And it's a lot of work,especially with day job, you
know, bringing this, thisumbrella of a, an, of an idea, a
(27:13):
concept.
I call it a movement.
Uh, all of the things.
Um.
It's a labor of love and I amjust having the time of my life,
but that's when it came to me.
Tracie (27:22):
I love that.
And it's the, you know, it'slike the, it's when the blur
becomes more clear.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
You have this idea that becomesa.
I don't wanna say like an idea,a vision.
That becomes a plan.
That becomes an action.
Because that's way toostructured for your Yeah, yeah.
And really process.
But it's, but it's, but it'sthere somewhere.
(27:43):
It's there in that big idea andit's getting clearer and clearer
and now you find the words tospeak to it.
Yeah.
Find the imagery.
My gosh.
Your imagery, my girl.
It's the best.
Like that is, I have to say,that is what I really.
In watching you Yeah.
(28:03):
And all of this unfold.
Yeah.
This last six months, eightmonths, whatever it's been.
Um, it's, it's so fun as someonewho's in business also mm-hmm.
To see the clarity of brand
Jen (28:16):
Yeah.
Tracie (28:17):
And how you.
Show that to the world and it'sso good.
Like it's just, thank you.
Yeah.
It's really, really great.
Thank you.
Um, it's, and it's inspiring notonly to the people who are in
your community who feel mm-hmm.
That they align with the idea ofbeing unruly.
Yeah.
But also to anyone else who hasa business who can say, wow,
(28:37):
this like brand mm-hmm.
Really knows who they aremm-hmm.
And knows how to speak to theirclient.
And this is such an importantbusiness skill.
And right, and not everyone hasthat.
The marketing is so natural foryou.
Jen (28:52):
Well, but again, what was behind that was 14 years and 10
years of intense identity work.
That's what, that's what'sbehind that.
Uh, and that's, you know,identity work has always been a
piece of, of my work.
Um, but it's like now that I'mon the other side of all that
and I, you know, the things arecoming a lot more easily and,
(29:14):
and all of that, and like thatis a key fundamental
foundational element, um, forfolks that really want to embody
their business and what they'reabout.
Yeah,
Tracie (29:26):
I agree.
I agree.
I think that there's the,'causeit's everyone.
I don't wanna say everyone's inlike two camps, but you know,
those of us, especially in thecoaching world where we are our
business mm-hmm.
We need to know who we are.
Yeah.
In order to show up like that,as that for our clients and in
our business.
Jen (29:46):
Yeah.
That level of clarity, power,influence.
Absolutely.
Tracie (29:50):
And then you have folks who, like, they made a company
and that company is this, this,this, but it's, but it's not
them.
Right.
Yeah.
It's like stuff or things, butit's not attached to their
personal self.
Yeah.
And it's not the same.
(30:10):
Yeah.
And I'm not saying that theycan't also be successful because
that's absolutely a differentcategory of business
Jen (30:17):
in a
Tracie (30:17):
sense.
Right.
Jen (30:18):
But I know, I know of a lot of coaches who.
Haven't done that level ofidentity work yet.
And they, they really want thebusiness.
They're doing all the things andthings aren't clicking and it,
they're frustrated and all ofthat.
Right.
And I just, what, what I thinkof is all the impacts left on
(30:41):
the table because people don't.
Do that.
The work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And you know, I call it unrulywith purpose.
Like my work is for impactmakers, people who create
belonging for others, founders,visionaries, thought leaders,
artists, healers, coaches, likeall of that.
Right.
And it's people that aremission-driven and you know,
(31:03):
unruly is fun, but it's with apurpose.
Tracie (31:08):
Yeah.
And at the same time, a littleirreverent.
Jen (31:11):
Oh, absolutely.
Or a lot of
Tracie (31:12):
reverent.
Yeah.
It's, you know, but like, it'stotally cheek purpose.
Purpose, and I reverence mm-hmm.
Are living in the same space,because that's me.
Yeah.
Right.
That's me.
And I think that the, the folkswho haven't figured that out for
themselves yet are kind of maybedoing what they've been told or
what they see in others andtheir, they're emulating others
(31:33):
mm-hmm.
And haven't figured out theirown.
And that's.
Like if that, I think that'slike the lesson for this episode
is Yeah, if you, if you aren'tfeeling totally aligned with
what you're doing, yeah.
Then, then change it.
Jen (31:49):
Yeah.
Tracie (31:49):
And maybe it also includes changing yourself, not
yourself doing the inner workyourself, but understanding
yourself.
Jen (31:55):
Understanding, yeah.
I,
Tracie (31:58):
yeah.
I don't mean change yourself,like change who you are, but
like change your relationship toyourself.
Jen (32:03):
Your relationship to yourself.
And this is why I love discoballs, because ball's, all these
mirrors, right?
And we need have a little one.
Have a little Oh, I love that.
Yeah.
We need mirrors.
Uh, and we need to be mirrorsfor others.
Right.
And the other day I had peoplemirror something back to me
where I was fitting myself intoa box that does not fit me, but
(32:27):
I, you know.
Sometimes we, we don't see thosethings.
And so how can we be mirrors foreach other and help each other
remember who the hell you are.
Tracie (32:37):
Yep.
Jen (32:37):
Right.
And I need it, like I said, justthis last, and I'm so grateful
that there, you know, gentlypointed out like, Hey, that that
kind of doesn't fit within yourunru.
I'm like, oh my God, you'reright.
Why am I doing that?
Yeah,
Tracie (32:50):
yeah.
Well, and.
The idea.
And that's why building acommunity underneath or around
all of these mm-hmm.
Ideas and philosophies and, andself understandings is why that
works so well.
Because all of the peoplemm-hmm.
Like, not everyone's gonnanotice that, but someone, well,
mm-hmm.
(33:10):
And that's like one of the, oneof the mirrors on the ball.
So I love the idea of the discoball.
This is, this is new in mybrain.
The idea of the disco ball.
Yeah.
Emulating the community itself.
Ooh, yeah.
Is the one of the mirrors.
Yeah.
You have to count how manymirrors are on that ball now?
Oh my gosh.
Jen (33:29):
No.
Tracie (33:30):
You can use a Sharpie and like dot them.
I have a process for you.
I have a very linear,straightforward process that you
could follow.
Okay.
Oh, thanks Tracie.
Uh, I think I'm good.
I have some how many?
Yeah.
You know, and, and it might takea, that kind of a level of
impact and influence and mm-hmm.
Reach.
(33:50):
To get to all of theperspectives that help us all.
Absolutely.
Be all of ourselves.
I love that.
I love that too.
That was really exciting.
You're brilliant.
Thank you.
Well, it's because I'm talkingto you.
Um, this is amazing.
I wanna ask you about how peoplecan understand and get to know
(34:11):
you.
Mm-hmm.
And We The Unruly better andconnect with you further.
I know we'll put information inthe show notes and that kind of
thing, but let's hear it fromyou.
Like you already said, all ofthe people and the healers and
the coaches and mm-hmm.
Change makers and all of thepeople that we then really is
for, what are you doing for allthose people and what are you
(34:31):
all doing together?
Jen (34:33):
Ooh, that is so good.
So in community, what people areloving about the community, and
this is the, these are all veryintentional, is that, uh, I have
you show up as peers so often,you know, you can look up to
people, but we make people, ourguru, our teacher, our, you
know, it's like, nope.
(34:54):
We are all peers.
We each have our own thoughtleadership.
Uh, we each need to take up.
The amount of space at the tablethat we need.
Right?
But also there is a depth.
Check your filters, check theperformative nonsense at the
door.
We are here to be deep incommunity.
(35:15):
Um, and by that I mean we're notlike, oh yeah, everything's
fine.
No, no, no.
It's like, no, we're, we're,we're, we're being more raw and
vulnerable.
This is the place you come whenyou don't.
You know, it it the strong womenwho need other strong women,
right?
Like these are the people thatget it.
(35:35):
These are the cycle breakers,the ones who've been
underestimated.
The too much, the not enough.
Like we're gonna bring all ofthat into the container and
people are loving the depth, um,that we go.
Uh, I don't know if you're
Tracie (35:48):
gonna start off.
This phase of life by tellingeveryone in your life that you
were wrong, you better find aplace to be able to keep talking
about it, because yeah, we'rewrong all the time.
Jen (35:59):
Yeah, yeah.
But just that place that you canbe really honest with yourself.
Mm-hmm.
And with others and be witnessedand supported.
You know, we do businessstrategy, we do identity work.
We do.
Holy rages.
Like,'cause sometimes rage isproductive and you know, but
it's like, what are you gonna doabout it now?
(36:20):
You know?
Yeah.
Uh, but it, you know, it's, wehelped with people make impacts.
One of my favorite things we do,I call it the, the, your name
way.
Trademark.
So it would be finding theTracie Way, right?
Mm-hmm.
Because we are fed personaldevelopment, productivity hacks,
life hacks, like, and those, arewe doing it like that person
Tracie (36:41):
or that person or that person?
Or that person?
What about me?
Yeah.
And those things aren't going
Jen (36:43):
bad, right or wrong, but.
You find your own silver bullet.
Yeah.
When you figure out what worksfor you, right?
When you have a discernmentfilter that you can put
everything through and say, isthis for me or is this not for
me?
Does this move me closer or doesit move me further away?
So many people are outsourcingand I understand it'cause I did
it for so long.
(37:04):
They're outsourcing theiranswers, right?
Instead of like.
Taking learning and thenapplying it to yourself.
It's outsourcing, oh, thisperson told me to do this.
That's what I'm gonna do.
Yeah.
That didn't work out.
So now I'm gonna go to thisperson and they're gonna tell me
what to do and I'm gonna do it.
And that didn't work out.
You're not spending the time,the energy, the resources,
(37:24):
finding your way.
Tracie (37:26):
Yeah.
Jen (37:26):
And that's the work I love.
That's like the definition,
Tracie (37:28):
it's like the definition of thought leadership, right?
Yeah.
Like it's your own thought.
Yeah.
Leading you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
To where you have decided thatyou actually want to go and not
Exactly.
Jen (37:40):
And that is my thought leadership is helping others
find that silver bullet withinthemselves, right?
Identity, courage.
You know, belief, like all ofthose things.
And then from there, the actualcreation of what you want,
whether it's business, personal,profe, like any of that becomes
so much easier and enjoyable.
Tracie (38:01):
Yeah.
So good.
So good.
Thank you.
So I was thinking as I wassaying that, or, uh, I was
thinking, you know, about theidea of mentorship and people
that are our mentors, whetherwe've ever met them or not,
right?
Mm-hmm.
Books that we've read,podcasters.
Celebrities, whatever, they'vedone all the things or whatever,
and we can take those pieces.
(38:22):
But ultimately, like you said,if we don't put those through
the filter of, is it actuallyfor me or is it just Yeah,
pretty shiny.
Jen (38:30):
Yeah.
Tracie (38:30):
Successful over there,
Jen (38:32):
you know, and like personal development.
It's not good, bad, right orwrong, but we would not have a,
what is it?
Like an 8 billion a yearindustry, if what was out there
was working for folks.
Tracie (38:45):
Yeah.
Jen (38:46):
We want.
Tracie (38:47):
Yeah.
Right.
Because the people are alwaysstill looking for more.
Jen (38:49):
Yeah.
They're, they're, they're, youknow, intaking all these inputs
because the work is, can feelhard.
It can feel scary.
It can feel, and like humanbeings, we are not wired for
that.
Yeah.
But that is the work,
Tracie (39:06):
and that's why, that's why I love
Jen (39:08):
Yeah, go ahead.
Tracie (39:08):
Yeah.
Well, I was gonna say, that'swhy I love coaching, because
mm-hmm.
I feel like you have to be.
Like one-on-one or in smallgroups.
Mm-hmm.
To really get to that placewhere, yeah.
If you're doing something biglike a po, I mean, yeah.
I'm not saying my podcast isbig, but you know, you do a
podcast and it's likebroadcasting to the masses and
hopefully someone will getsomething.
(39:29):
Yeah.
That will take a nugget in adirection.
Jen (39:32):
Yep.
Tracie (39:33):
But it's not the answer.
Right.
Right.
It's not gonna
Jen (39:35):
help you embody
Tracie (39:37):
Yeah.
Jen (39:37):
The word.
Yep.
Tracie (39:38):
I love that.
Beautiful.
Jen (39:40):
Okay, so good, Tracie.
Tracie (39:42):
We're gonna make sure that everyone can find you, you
know, all of the links.
Yeah.
And all of those things.
And before I, I wanna leave youwith the last word, but before
we do that, I just wanna thankyou for being here.
Jen (39:56):
Thank you because
Tracie (39:57):
we've been looking forward to this for like a month
or something on the calendar.
Yep.
Off and on.
And I knew that this was gonnabe such a fun conversation'cause
every time I'm with you I amlike extra juice to go like,
have an impact.
Aw, thanks Tracie.
Fun and I appreciate that andyou're welcome.
But I also thank you.
Um, I do wanna leave you withthe final word.
(40:19):
Like what?
Any last words.
Jen (40:21):
Oh my gosh.
Find your mirrors.
I had to use my husband thismorning to be a mirror for me.
Uh, I woke up not feeling it.
I woke up down and doubtingmyself, and I knew who to go to
for support.
Find your mirrors and use them,and so you can remember who, and
hopefully they're easilyaccessible.
(40:43):
Right, right, right.
But you know, whether it's acoach, a therapist, a friend
that like find, even if it's oneor two people, find those people
and allow yourself to bevulnerable enough.
'cause in my opinion, vulnerableis strength.
Be vulnerable enough to say,Hey, I could use a bit of a
boost.
Hey, can you help me rememberwho the FI am?
Tracie (41:07):
I love that.
Jen (41:08):
Thank you.
Tracie (41:09):
Thank you.
Um, Jen Vernan, I'm saying itagain so everyone knows how to
say your name.
Jen (41:14):
Yeah, you got it right.
Tracie (41:15):
Jen Ton.
Thank you for being on thepodcast.
I appreciate you and I am soinspired by you.
And thank you, Tracie.
I'm so glad that we'reconnected.
Thank you again.
Jen (41:25):
Well, and ditto.
I can't wait to turn the tablesand have you on.
Tracie (41:30):
Thank you for listening to the Bold and Brilliant
podcast.
I'm your host, Tracie Root, andI wanna invite you to check out
the show notes, find out whereyou can connect with our guests,
find out more about what I andthe Gather community have to
offer you, and be sure tosubscribe to this podcast on
your favorite platform.
Thanks so much.
Are you ready for a bold conversation about identity,
impact and becoming more of whoyou really are?
In today's episode of the Boldand Brilliant Podcast, I sit
down with Jen Vertanen, founderof We The Unruly, a community
and movement for impact makerswho are done with performative
perfection and ready to leadwith truth.
(00:22):
Jen shares the pivotal, deeplyvulnerable decision that changed
everything.
One that required her to admitshe was headed down the wrong
path, choose courage over ego,and begin a decade long journey
of healing and identity work.
You'll hear how redefiningstrength, finding the right
support and creating powerfulmirrors in community can help
(00:44):
you remember who you are,especially when self-doubt
creeps in.
If you're building amission-driven business or life,
and you're craving deeperalignment, clearer self-trust,
and a way forward, that actuallyfeels like you, this episode is
gonna land in all the rightplaces.
Welcome to the Bold andBrilliant podcast.
(01:04):
Jen, I am way, I'm probably waytoo excited to welcome you to
the podcast.
I'm so glad to have you.
Jen (01:11):
Thank you so much.
Uh, I don't know if you're moreexcited than I am though.
Tracie (01:16):
Well, okay.
Well, we'll just kind of bothsit here in that excitement
moment.
I have to say that for those ofyou who are watching on YouTube,
don't we just love Jen's' freshlike self of the pink.
But with the sweater especially,I am such a fan of your style.
It's so fun.
Oh, thank you to, it's fun toobserve as someone who's been
pink and like does also the boldpersona.
(01:40):
Mm-hmm.
That to see other people show upthat way, it's like, oh yeah.
People might get a little bit ofthat from me too, so that's fun.
Jen (01:46):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Tracie (01:49):
I love it.
Okay, Jen?
Well, we have been talking aboutdoing this for a while and we've
been in each other's universesprobably for the last year-ish,
I would say.
Jen (02:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Tracie (02:00):
Something like that.
Um, and hadn't met in personuntil earlier this year.
Yep.
October online.
I've been a part of you kind ofcreating this new we, the unruly
community philosophy, likemm-hmm.
The way of being in the worldthat helps everyone recognize
(02:24):
that there's no box that we allhave to fit in.
Like there, like we don't haveto not only not fit in a box,
but there's no box.
Like, forget it.
Jen (02:33):
Yeah.
And for those listening in, uh,sometimes those who don't think
they live in boxes, um, needreminders, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I say that I need it just asmuch as anyone else.
Tracie (02:44):
Well, and that's why we create what we create, right?
Mm-hmm.
So that we not only get thething that we need, but after
thinking about what we need,bringing that to other people to
help them realize that it's okayto need this thing and join the
other people who also need it.
And now we're all together.
Absolutely.
We get to have a party.
Yep.
(03:05):
So, and even though you've beencreating all of this, all this
year.
You and have been anentrepreneur for a while.
How long?
Jen (03:16):
Uh, 14 years.
But let's, let's 14 years.
Let's, let's say entrepreneurish.
For 14 years
Tracie (03:22):
we've had a thing of your own.
Yes.
How that that is correct.
For about 14 years.
Yep.
Which is about the same as me.
I'm met like 13 and a halfyears, so we're, we're in a
similar vein, but the differenceis you still work in the real
world of the corporatesituations.
And I do.
And I departed.
Probably not Advisably, so, um,when I started as well.
(03:44):
But, so let's talk a little bitabout you and like what you do
outside of Jen Vertanen andimagining coach We The Unruly
situation mm-hmm.
That got you to deciding to makethat, that.
This community that you nowhave.
So tell us like your originstory.
What's the other part of youthat we might not see every day
(04:07):
and how'd you get here?
Jen (04:08):
Oh, goodness.
Uh, well, there's a, the, thecorporate side of me and I'm an
odd duck in that I love my dayjob.
Like, and you don't hear peoplesay that a lot, which yeah,
makes my heart hurt.
Tracie (04:20):
Well, it makes me happy for you.
Jen (04:22):
Well, yeah, happy for me.
Yeah, absolutely.
But I, I think of it as I have aunicorn role in a leadership,
uh, a unicorn leadership team, aunicorn company, just everything
aligned.
That's why I love it.
But I'm chief of staff of thecoolest health tech startup,
and, um, what that means is, youknow, I heard cats, uh, they're
(04:42):
Wiley.
Unruly cats, if you will.
Uh, but I love'em so much.
But what brought,
Tracie (04:47):
how big is the staff that you're herding?
Jen (04:50):
Well, I mean, I, so I'm not over all the staff and I'm not
over anyone.
Actually.
I, I get to play Switzerland.
Um, so it's a small company, butwhat I wanna share is.
That is from three plus decadesin IT software development,
specifically project management.
So I tried to be a developer fora little bit and then, you know,
(05:12):
I wasn't very good at that, so Imoved into business analysis and
then project management and, andyou know, on up and what have
you.
Tracie (05:19):
Yeah.
Honestly, this is why we getalong so well.
Yeah.
We always get along with the ITproject managers.
I was gonna say, because thatwas the facilities project
manager.
Jen (05:27):
Right, right, right.
Tracie (05:28):
We had to work together, right?
Jen (05:30):
Yep, yep.
Tracie (05:31):
Okay.
So keep going.
That's, that's amazing.
Yeah.
Jen (05:33):
But you know, in 2011, I, um, I left my then job, um, and
I was like, I'm not working forthe man and you know, blah,
blah, blah.
All this false bravado andconfidence and.
My mom funny.
Funnily enough, she was reallyembarrassed that I was leaving
and she told people, she toldmy, my former classmates that I
(05:54):
had retired and I didn't learnabout that till years later.
I'm like, mom?
She's like, well, I didn't knowwhat to tell people.
I was so embarrassed.
I'm like, okay.
Uh, so I left that the job, thecorporate, she was embarrassed.
'cause
Tracie (06:06):
you chose to leave.
Yes.
Like cushy unadvisedly.
So.
Jen (06:11):
Probably.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Um, but anyway, I, I was movinginto, I had learned about
coaching.
And I thought, well, I coach andmentor in my day job, so let's
try that out.
Right?
Um, but what, what happened isI, I slipped into a very, one of
probably my deepest depressionsthat I've ever had, and it, it
(06:34):
lasted for a number of months.
And so even though I, and thisis why I say false bravado,
right?
On the outside, I looked like,yeah, I've got this, you know,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
People are excited for me.
I needed the time and space tohave what I now is probably a,
a, a nervous breakdown a littlebit at the time of breakdown.
(06:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that set me on the path ofexploring, coaching, and doing
it from my own business.
And the deeper I got into it,the more I loved it.
And the part of, you know, I sayentrepreneurial ish, is that I
had the belief that this wassomething I could absolutely do
and do from a sustainablebusiness perspective.
(07:16):
Um, but what I hadn't realized,and of course hindsight is such
a gift, what I hadn't realizedis I had so much trauma and
wounds from childhood, from, youknow, young adulthood that I
needed to work on the, I neededto do the inner work first.
Before I was really ready toleap into what people see now,
which is, you know, strategicCEO of my business, making big,
(07:39):
bold moves, um, you know,rubbing elbows with all the cool
people and, and all of that.
But it, you know, it's, it wasnot an overnight success, let's
say that.
Tracie (07:48):
I think that that is not uncommon, right?
Yeah.
Like we have that drive to dosomething for ourselves, for
our, our own, uh, you know, tokind of be in charge of our own
future.
Yeah.
And.
Maybe it's a, you know, gen Xthing Right.
Also that we wanna, you know,we're,
Jen (08:07):
we're feral to be good with,
Tracie (08:09):
we wanna be in charge of our shit, right?
Yeah.
So, um, and then to just standup and go, okay, well I can do
that.
Mm-hmm.
And go do it.
Yeah.
Without really being prepared,right?
Like with ski, with, with thedetails of the business, but
also,
Jen (08:25):
yeah.
I call it emotional maturity.
Tracie (08:28):
Too bad we were 40 or whatever.
I,
Jen (08:31):
yeah, yeah, exactly.
Tracie (08:33):
Yeah.
Okay.
So.
So you started coaching, butmm-hmm.
You also found a new position.
Jen (08:40):
I did.
After 15 months of, uh, notingfor the man, uh, some stuff was
going on with my youngest and wedecided to move her into private
school education and we just, Iwas not bringing in near enough
to, to be able to support that,and it really was the right
thing for our family to do.
Um, and so I went back into theworkforce, but.
(09:03):
I went in with a new set ofboundaries.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, and this, it wasn'tintentional.
It's like I, in, I inherentlyknew.
Um, but a new set of boundariesand a new, what am I willing,
what type of environment am Iwilling to work with?
What type of, you know, manageram I willing to work with?
Um.
(09:23):
What am I not right?
And you know, being in it atthat time it was, it was, you
know, a privilege to be able tohave that be able to, to.
Leave something if it wasn'tworking for me.
And I wanna acknowledge noteveryone has that.
Um, no, I would say it thesedays is very different, but back
(09:43):
in those days, you didn't haveto worry about landing a new gig
like, like that.
Tracie (09:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, especially with the kindof experience that you had in
your pocket.
Mm-hmm.
And the years of Exactly.
Being able to, what you werebringing to the table.
Jen (09:56):
The relationships I had built.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
Tracie (10:00):
Awesome.
Um, and then so, okay, so youdecided, so you got this new
position, you were able to sendyour child to the school that
you needed to do, and then therewas some more family things that
really became an upheavalmoment.
Yeah.
Again, potentially didn't, yes.
Did.
Tell us a little bit about,because for everyone that's on
(10:22):
the podcast, I wanna know, likewe all make decisions.
All the time that, especially inhindsight as you've been talking
about, we can see how our trackshifted at that moment with that
decision.
And so that was a big decisionto take that job.
Mm-hmm.
In order to do what you neededto do for your child and for
your family.
(10:43):
Tell us more.
Yeah, so 2015, uh, things reallycame to a head for me
personally.
And, uh, what, so I would, I was45 at the time, and.
I had not dealt with the innerstuff from, like I said, the
trauma, the wounds, what haveyou, all the, you know, I Hmm.
(11:05):
Not to get, I mean, I, I will gointo it.
Absolutely.
I'm an open, but, but how muchtime do we wanna take?
Right, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But suffice it to say, um, I wasraised, uh, being told I wasn't
a very good person.
I, you know, just, it was deathby a thousand paper cuts.
Right.
And it's heartbreaking, but it'salso not an uncommon story.
(11:26):
Yeah, right.
Unfortunately.
But it was death by a thousandpaper cuts and I always took on
the role of I'm the warrior, I'mhere to protect, uh, my mom, my
brother, um, you know, and it'sjust all it did was built up all
these walls and, you know, overthe years and it's that outside
looking in, it looks good,right.
(11:48):
The inner.
My inner, uh, painted a verydifferent picture that was
angry, resentful, bitter, heart,aching, loneliness.
I did not like myself.
I did not like my life.
I had so much when I looked atmy family.
I, I loved my husband.
But he almost became the effigy,if you will, of it's like he
(12:12):
wasn't fixing for me what Ineeded.
Yeah.
What I needed him.
So now he's the wrong one.
He is, yeah.
He is in the wrong, and so the,up until that point, I had done
all sorts of things to, youknow, healthy and healthy to, to
try to fix myself, my life.
And he was the one thing that Ihadn't.
Tried yet.
And that was to leave him.
(12:32):
And I thought, you know, I, Igot pregnant at 19, so I, at
that point I'd been raisingbabies for, you know, 25 years.
I, I had my first at 20, uh, andthis was, I was 45.
And it felt like the, the lastthing I could try to try to fix
myself and give myself thatfreedom I, I craved, right?
(12:53):
Like I can just.
Not have to worry about anyone.
I'll get my my kids part of thetime.
I won't have a spouse, you know?
All of this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And again, on paper it seemslike a, an answer that could
work.
It was like, no, duh.
Yeah.
And what I, what I, again,hindsight, this is how bad it
was, is I was telling people Ilove him, but maybe when we're
(13:15):
in our seventies, we can remarryagain.
I would find, um, I would findarticles like stories of people
who had actually done that.
Right.
And I'd present them to him and.
Yeah.
Like, see, people have made thiswork and he was like, that's not
what I want, Jen.
That's not what I want.
You know, I, if I, I love you,but if we're gonna be together,
(13:35):
we're gonna like, we're gonna betogether, or I'm gonna move on,
you know, blah, blah, blah.
Yeah.
Uh, and so I, I had thisdecision that I'd made, and
again, this false bravado andconfidence, um, but this was my
persona.
This is what I was used to,right?
I was the one who made big, boldmoves, decisions, all of that.
I even, I'm just gonna do it.
(13:56):
Just gonna do it.
Yep.
Jen (13:59):
I even had an apartment that I had paid a couple of
months rent on, and I wasn'tliving there yet, but I was
starting to furnish it.
So the night we told, or the daywe told our, our daughter who
was 11 at the time, she was thelast kiddo at home.
Um, it was it.
A very hard day, as you canimagine.
Yeah.
Um, and that night I went to bedand it was just over and over
(14:21):
and over again.
Well, I tried to go to bed, butover and over it was like, you
don't want this, you don't wantthis.
You're making a mistake.
You wanna Right.
And, and the plan was that, thatnext day I was actually gonna
move into the apartment.
But all that night, over andover, that's all I heard.
You're making a big mistake.
So my husband woke up the nextmorning and I, I shared with him
(14:42):
and that.
Was so incredibly difficultbecause that was a level of
vulnerability.
Mm-hmm.
Oh
Tracie (14:50):
yeah.
Were you, were you admittedYeah.
That you were rethinking yourdecision Yeah.
That you had made?
Jen (14:56):
Yeah.
Wow.
Sorry, I gotta wipe my nose alittle bit.
It's chilly here in Minnesota.
Uh, but it was, you know, oh.
And to show I felt like theweakest person.
Um.
But it's like I had to do thisfor myself because I realized I
was making such a big mistake.
I, it was so bad inside my headthat I was willing to walk away
(15:20):
from the person who had onlyever had my back, who had only
ever loved me.
Like he, he was the person wholoved me no matter what.
Tracie (15:32):
Yeah.
And so
Jen (15:33):
who saw through the stories, who saw through.
The things I did and you know,the behavior because I, again, I
was kind of this tough exteriorof a shell and he, he saw the
potential in me and loved me nomatter what.
So
Tracie (15:49):
that's so wonderful.
That's such, thank you.
It's a great story.
And so like you thought thatmaking a change with him was
going to fix
Jen (16:00):
Yeah.
I'll have the freedom.
What is
Tracie (16:02):
going on in here?
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and to admit that to hisface.
Yeah.
After all the discussions thatyou'd already had.
That's so brave and amazing.
Mm-hmm.
And so like, what was the nextstep?
Like,'cause this is a big, thisis a big fork in the road.
You were about to, to move outand you didn't move out.
(16:24):
And, you know, did he know thatyou were paying for that
apartment?
Well,
Jen (16:28):
yes.
Yes.
Tracie (16:30):
Yeah.
Jen (16:30):
Yep.
Uh, yeah.
It, you know, what happenednext?
It was, it was, it was hard totell him.
That was definitely a bravemoment.
But getting myself to admit tomyself Yeah.
That I was making a mistake thatwas even harder.
Yeah, of course.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So the next step is we said,okay, before we tell our
(16:51):
daughter, and, you know, the,the other kiddos, the, um, the
ones who are outta the house,we're gonna take a week.
We wanna make sure this isn'tlike a knee jerk emotional, but
you don't really, really meanit.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, uh, so that's what we did.
And we just, we talked a lot.
Right.
And we agreed that.
We're going to go to marriagecounseling just to learn how to
(17:13):
communicate with each otheragain.
Right?
And, um, and so that is what wedid.
We, you know, and he said, if westay together, you, you are
promising you will not do thisagain.
Um, you know, and I made thatpromise, but also what I was
going through was the guilt of.
Telling our, our family, right?
(17:35):
The, our, our young daughter athome and the two older kiddos
and our friends and our extendedfamily.
I had put people through this.
And so I carried a lot of guiltaround that, of course, that I
had to untangle and unwind andmake peace with that and, and
(17:56):
what have you.
Uh, yeah, 2015 was, you know, Istarted the year I, I knew that
I was, um, planning on, ondivorcing and I started the year
I, all my passwords was 2015 ismy year, and it did become my
year, but in very differentways.
Yeah.
Tracie (18:12):
So that's wild.
So in telling the family and theextended family and the friend
and, you know, you had that,that decision to, to make the
vulnerable admission to yourhusband Yeah.
That you knew that you werewrong.
Jen (18:28):
Yeah.
Tracie (18:29):
And now you had to tell everyone else that you were
Jen (18:31):
wrong.
Yeah.
Oh, Tracie, you told the
Tracie (18:33):
entire planet of your world that you were wrong.
Jen (18:36):
That was so hard.
Like had that ever happenedbefore?
No, not like that.
Right.
I mean, even when I got up prepregnant at 19, you know, I, I
You were like, yeah, it wasquiet.
Know?
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
It, you know, yeah.
It was, it was an interestingtime, you know, and there was a
lot of.
What I didn't realize.
So I did not grow up in a safe,what I'd call a safe family,
(18:58):
right?
For all sorts of reasons.
But when I became a mom, it wasvery important to me that I did
not bring, you know, thosethings forward, right?
And so my daughter.
The only world she ever knew washer mom and dad and her brothers
and such safety.
Yeah.
(19:18):
Right.
That's all she knew.
And I was gonna rip that outfrom her underneath her because
I wasn't thinking about it fromher perspective.
And so then it's the guilt overbeing selfish, right?
Yeah, of
Tracie (19:31):
course.
Jen (19:32):
All of that.
Tracie (19:33):
Yeah.
And with her being 11,
Jen (19:34):
yeah.
You know, that's still
Tracie (19:36):
very young, very formative years.
Very like hard to understandadult things, even though they
think absolute that they're 20.
Jen (19:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tracie (19:44):
Yeah.
Amazing.
So, okay, so you said 2015 isgonna be your year?
Jen (19:49):
Yep.
Tracie (19:50):
It became your year.
Jen (19:51):
It did.
Tracie (19:52):
How so?
Like what?
Ooh, what happened next?
Jen (19:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we decided our, our middleone had graduated high school
and we decided we were going tomove and we wanted to move into
the city and.
The house we we bought thatwe're still in now it, it has
these, it's a 1905 VictorianFoursquare, but it has beautiful
hardwood and yeah, it has thesecreaky wood floors.
(20:17):
Okay.
And the realtor was like, oh.
And I'm like, no, I actuallylove these.
Because it brought me back tofeel of when I did feel safe in
my childhood.
And that was at mygreat-grandmother's house.
She had creaky wood floors.
And so I like to think of thishouse as it is the home.
That, that held me as I washealing.
Mm-hmm.
And now I know exactly what homefeels like.
Tracie (20:41):
Oh,
Jen (20:41):
this gets me a little, Hmm.
That's
Tracie (20:43):
so beautiful.
Jen (20:43):
I know what home feels like.
So wherever I go from now on, itdoesn't matter the place.
I know the feeling of home.
Yeah, it gets me a littleemotional.
Tracie (20:53):
Beautiful.
I love that.
Yeah.
So, okay, so you moved into thisnew house.
Yes.
You moved into the city.
Jen (20:59):
Yep.
Yep.
And you know, it's, I like tosay it was 10 years of identity
work of, you know, I don't likewho I've been, I don't really
know who I am.
And this goes a little bit to myhuman design, FYI, that the not
know it, but I didn't know thatat the time.
Which is Which is what?
Well, I'm a six two manifestinggenerator, but the only center I
have undefined is my.
(21:20):
I think it's the g it's youridentity center.
And so it's like, oh, no wonder.
I dunno, I don't know enough toreally even know what you're
talking
Tracie (21:27):
about, but now it's documented.
And when I learned, there we go.
I know.
Jen (21:30):
There we go.
Um, but it was like, I don'tlike who I've been, I don't know
who I am.
And so it, the question became,who do I wanna be?
And my work has been for myself,has been becoming that person.
Yeah.
So 2015 was, it literally wasthe start of that, you know,
and, and some people might belistening and be like, oh my
gosh, a decade.
(21:52):
My argument is I get to havethis the rest of my life.
Yeah.
Like why would I not if you, youknow, if I had set out and made
this into a smart goal and triedto assign a time to it, you
know, and if a year went by andI wasn't, you know, and I'd give
it up, I'm like, no, I get tohave this the rest of my life.
Tracie (22:11):
You know, identity work isn't.
It's always evolving, so there'snothing you can, you can put a
timeframe to, I'm going to, youknow, go through this process
for this next year.
Right.
But ultimately it's the kind ofthing where you say, and we'll
see where we are then.
Jen (22:27):
Yeah.
And maybe go on
Tracie (22:29):
from there because, and Tracie, I don't, I
Jen (22:31):
don't know if you know why I have pink hair.
No, tell me.
Okay.
So when I, I had this vision andwhen did that, when did you
start?
Well, it was a couple years ago,but if we go back to 2015, and
I, you know, I, I, I, I sawthese two paths of this bitter,
old, resentful, angry woman thatno one wanted to come to my
(22:52):
funeral.
My children didn't wanna, andthat felt like a very real path
that I was headed down.
And then I saw the, the otherside of what, like people would
see in me.
Right?
Funny, you know.
Sparkle in my eye, like all ofthose things.
And I'm like, that's who I wannabe more of.
Right?
My 80-year-old self who's likegetting into all sorts of
(23:12):
shenanigans.
So anyway, fast forward a fewyears and I'm on Pinterest.
I, I love, I love photos ofbeautiful older women.
I love that.
Like I, um, I just love it.
And I saw this woman with pinkhair in her eighties and I'm
like, oh.
I want pink hair in my eighties.
And then I was like, well, wait,why can't, you know, 52-year-old
(23:33):
Jen have pink hair?
And so that's how the pink haircame to be.
Tracie (23:36):
Yeah.
I love that.
Amazing.
And that, it's a similar story,right?
When I mm-hmm.
Was in, I actually started withteal and Okay.
Through all of the differentcolors.
Um, but, uh, but I started, alsostarted small because I saw
someone on stage speaking at anevent that I was at with full
mermaid.
Jen (23:55):
Ooh.
Situation.
I love mermaid hair.
And she's
Tracie (23:57):
like a former, like military.
I don't know if she was a marineor what she was, but she was
badass.
So great on stage, like reallyinspirational.
And I was just like, that'sawesome.
That is, yeah.
And I want some.
And that's when I started doingmy hair.
Yeah.
But for me it's been 10 years.
Jen (24:15):
Okay.
Tracie (24:16):
Of their variety until I decided to be curly.
And then I'll let the curls dotheir,
Jen (24:21):
do their talking.
I love your curly hair.
The um, the reason I have avintage motorcycle jacket from
the early eighties is because Isaw a photo of, you know, again,
this older woman probably in herseventies, eighties.
And I'm like, I want a vintageleather jacket.
You know?
Yeah.
And so it's a lot of theexternal, but it's all a
(24:42):
reflection of the internal Yes.
Right.
Tracie (24:45):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, we say, andthat's, you know, I got asked a
lot like, why, why do you havepurple hair, pink hair, whatever
color it was at the time?
And it's like, yeah.
Part of it is, I, I enjoy beingcenter of attention, honestly.
Yeah.
Like, you know, being on stageand being a performer and all
those things.
And it's like the.
(25:05):
It's the bold self.
Mm-hmm.
Like growing out of your hairfollicles.
Like it's, yeah.
It's seeping through your pores.
Jen (25:12):
Yeah.
To
Tracie (25:13):
become and to show like who you are on the inside, on
the outside.
Right.
Even though it's an external.
Application'cause.
Right.
Unfortunately, we weren'tactually born with the colors in
our hair.
Jen (25:25):
Well, I, well,
Tracie (25:27):
okay.
Tracie was
Jen (25:28):
with
Tracie (25:28):
I know, but I was born with the curls, so I love that.
I love that.
But you know, I used to have avery bright, it's really who you
are.
Not that you're trying to showoff, but that it's just Right.
You feel more you and remind youthat you're,
Jen (25:41):
yeah.
You know, recently I asked myuncle at Thanksgiving, what was
I like as a little kid, like atfive, because I don't remember.
He's like, you were very gigglyand playful, and that was such a
gift to hear that 50 yearslater, because that's like the
inner kiddo has come out.
Mm-hmm.
Because she is healed enough.
Tracie (26:02):
Yay.
Yeah.
Awesome.
I love it.
Okay, so.
That's amazing.
I love all of this story.
And so you're working in yourjob.
You're, it's a lot, Tracie.
It's a lot.
Right.
You're working in that, thatregular job, you, you're still
coaching.
You got the new house.
This is 10 years ago.
When did the idea of creating Wethe unruly begin?
(26:27):
Yeah.
And like tell us about thatjourney.
Jen (26:29):
Yeah, so I've always known there was this umbrella.
That I wanted my work to, to fitunder.
I didn't wanna be coach Jen.
I wanted this umbrella, but Ididn't have words for it.
Right?
But I knew it was there.
So April 15th, 2025, uh, my 15fifth birthday, I sit with
(26:50):
myself and I'm like, where am Inot giving?
W what do I really, really,really want?
And I've asked myself thatbefore.
I love that question.
And this time the answer finallycame for the umbrella.
And, uh, it's been magical eversince.
And it's a lot of work,especially with day job, you
know, bringing this, thisumbrella of a, an, of an idea, a
(27:13):
concept.
I call it a movement.
Uh, all of the things.
Um.
It's a labor of love and I amjust having the time of my life,
but that's when it came to me.
Tracie (27:22):
I love that.
And it's the, you know, it'slike the, it's when the blur
becomes more clear.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
You have this idea that becomesa.
I don't wanna say like an idea,a vision.
That becomes a plan.
That becomes an action.
Because that's way toostructured for your Yeah, yeah.
And really process.
But it's, but it's, but it'sthere somewhere.
(27:43):
It's there in that big idea andit's getting clearer and clearer
and now you find the words tospeak to it.
Yeah.
Find the imagery.
My gosh.
Your imagery, my girl.
It's the best.
Like that is, I have to say,that is what I really.
In watching you Yeah.
(28:03):
And all of this unfold.
Yeah.
This last six months, eightmonths, whatever it's been.
Um, it's, it's so fun as someonewho's in business also mm-hmm.
To see the clarity of brand
Jen (28:16):
Yeah.
Tracie (28:17):
And how you.
Show that to the world and it'sso good.
Like it's just, thank you.
Yeah.
It's really, really great.
Thank you.
Um, it's, and it's inspiring notonly to the people who are in
your community who feel mm-hmm.
That they align with the idea ofbeing unruly.
Yeah.
But also to anyone else who hasa business who can say, wow,
(28:37):
this like brand mm-hmm.
Really knows who they aremm-hmm.
And knows how to speak to theirclient.
And this is such an importantbusiness skill.
And right, and not everyone hasthat.
The marketing is so natural foryou.
Jen (28:52):
Well, but again, what was behind that was 14 years and 10
years of intense identity work.
That's what, that's what'sbehind that.
Uh, and that's, you know,identity work has always been a
piece of, of my work.
Um, but it's like now that I'mon the other side of all that
and I, you know, the things arecoming a lot more easily and,
(29:14):
and all of that, and like thatis a key fundamental
foundational element, um, forfolks that really want to embody
their business and what they'reabout.
Yeah,
Tracie (29:26):
I agree.
I agree.
I think that there's the,'causeit's everyone.
I don't wanna say everyone's inlike two camps, but you know,
those of us, especially in thecoaching world where we are our
business mm-hmm.
We need to know who we are.
Yeah.
In order to show up like that,as that for our clients and in
our business.
Jen (29:46):
Yeah.
That level of clarity, power,influence.
Absolutely.
Tracie (29:50):
And then you have folks who, like, they made a company
and that company is this, this,this, but it's, but it's not
them.
Right.
Yeah.
It's like stuff or things, butit's not attached to their
personal self.
Yeah.
And it's not the same.
(30:10):
Yeah.
And I'm not saying that theycan't also be successful because
that's absolutely a differentcategory of business
Jen (30:17):
in a
Tracie (30:17):
sense.
Right.
Jen (30:18):
But I know, I know of a lot of coaches who.
Haven't done that level ofidentity work yet.
And they, they really want thebusiness.
They're doing all the things andthings aren't clicking and it,
they're frustrated and all ofthat.
Right.
And I just, what, what I thinkof is all the impacts left on
(30:41):
the table because people don't.
Do that.
The work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And you know, I call it unrulywith purpose.
Like my work is for impactmakers, people who create
belonging for others, founders,visionaries, thought leaders,
artists, healers, coaches, likeall of that.
Right.
And it's people that aremission-driven and you know,
(31:03):
unruly is fun, but it's with apurpose.
Tracie (31:08):
Yeah.
And at the same time, a littleirreverent.
Jen (31:11):
Oh, absolutely.
Or a lot of
Tracie (31:12):
reverent.
Yeah.
It's, you know, but like, it'stotally cheek purpose.
Purpose, and I reverence mm-hmm.
Are living in the same space,because that's me.
Yeah.
Right.
That's me.
And I think that the, the folkswho haven't figured that out for
themselves yet are kind of maybedoing what they've been told or
what they see in others andtheir, they're emulating others
(31:33):
mm-hmm.
And haven't figured out theirown.
And that's.
Like if that, I think that'slike the lesson for this episode
is Yeah, if you, if you aren'tfeeling totally aligned with
what you're doing, yeah.
Then, then change it.
Jen (31:49):
Yeah.
Tracie (31:49):
And maybe it also includes changing yourself, not
yourself doing the inner workyourself, but understanding
yourself.
Jen (31:55):
Understanding, yeah.
I,
Tracie (31:58):
yeah.
I don't mean change yourself,like change who you are, but
like change your relationship toyourself.
Jen (32:03):
Your relationship to yourself.
And this is why I love discoballs, because ball's, all these
mirrors, right?
And we need have a little one.
Have a little Oh, I love that.
Yeah.
We need mirrors.
Uh, and we need to be mirrorsfor others.
Right.
And the other day I had peoplemirror something back to me
where I was fitting myself intoa box that does not fit me, but
(32:27):
I, you know.
Sometimes we, we don't see thosethings.
And so how can we be mirrors foreach other and help each other
remember who the hell you are.
Tracie (32:37):
Yep.
Jen (32:37):
Right.
And I need it, like I said, justthis last, and I'm so grateful
that there, you know, gentlypointed out like, Hey, that that
kind of doesn't fit within yourunru.
I'm like, oh my God, you'reright.
Why am I doing that?
Yeah,
Tracie (32:50):
yeah.
Well, and.
The idea.
And that's why building acommunity underneath or around
all of these mm-hmm.
Ideas and philosophies and, andself understandings is why that
works so well.
Because all of the peoplemm-hmm.
Like, not everyone's gonnanotice that, but someone, well,
mm-hmm.
(33:10):
And that's like one of the, oneof the mirrors on the ball.
So I love the idea of the discoball.
This is, this is new in mybrain.
The idea of the disco ball.
Yeah.
Emulating the community itself.
Ooh, yeah.
Is the one of the mirrors.
Yeah.
You have to count how manymirrors are on that ball now?
Oh my gosh.
Jen (33:29):
No.
Tracie (33:30):
You can use a Sharpie and like dot them.
I have a process for you.
I have a very linear,straightforward process that you
could follow.
Okay.
Oh, thanks Tracie.
Uh, I think I'm good.
I have some how many?
Yeah.
You know, and, and it might takea, that kind of a level of
impact and influence and mm-hmm.
Reach.
(33:50):
To get to all of theperspectives that help us all.
Absolutely.
Be all of ourselves.
I love that.
I love that too.
That was really exciting.
You're brilliant.
Thank you.
Well, it's because I'm talkingto you.
Um, this is amazing.
I wanna ask you about how peoplecan understand and get to know
(34:11):
you.
Mm-hmm.
And We The Unruly better andconnect with you further.
I know we'll put information inthe show notes and that kind of
thing, but let's hear it fromyou.
Like you already said, all ofthe people and the healers and
the coaches and mm-hmm.
Change makers and all of thepeople that we then really is
for, what are you doing for allthose people and what are you
(34:31):
all doing together?
Jen (34:33):
Ooh, that is so good.
So in community, what people areloving about the community, and
this is the, these are all veryintentional, is that, uh, I have
you show up as peers so often,you know, you can look up to
people, but we make people, ourguru, our teacher, our, you
know, it's like, nope.
(34:54):
We are all peers.
We each have our own thoughtleadership.
Uh, we each need to take up.
The amount of space at the tablethat we need.
Right?
But also there is a depth.
Check your filters, check theperformative nonsense at the
door.
We are here to be deep incommunity.
(35:15):
Um, and by that I mean we're notlike, oh yeah, everything's
fine.
No, no, no.
It's like, no, we're, we're,we're, we're being more raw and
vulnerable.
This is the place you come whenyou don't.
You know, it it the strong womenwho need other strong women,
right?
Like these are the people thatget it.
(35:35):
These are the cycle breakers,the ones who've been
underestimated.
The too much, the not enough.
Like we're gonna bring all ofthat into the container and
people are loving the depth, um,that we go.
Uh, I don't know if you're
Tracie (35:48):
gonna start off.
This phase of life by tellingeveryone in your life that you
were wrong, you better find aplace to be able to keep talking
about it, because yeah, we'rewrong all the time.
Jen (35:59):
Yeah, yeah.
But just that place that you canbe really honest with yourself.
Mm-hmm.
And with others and be witnessedand supported.
You know, we do businessstrategy, we do identity work.
We do.
Holy rages.
Like,'cause sometimes rage isproductive and you know, but
it's like, what are you gonna doabout it now?
(36:20):
You know?
Yeah.
Uh, but it, you know, it's, wehelped with people make impacts.
One of my favorite things we do,I call it the, the, your name
way.
Trademark.
So it would be finding theTracie Way, right?
Mm-hmm.
Because we are fed personaldevelopment, productivity hacks,
life hacks, like, and those, arewe doing it like that person
Tracie (36:41):
or that person or that person?
Or that person?
What about me?
Yeah.
And those things aren't going
Jen (36:43):
bad, right or wrong, but.
You find your own silver bullet.
Yeah.
When you figure out what worksfor you, right?
When you have a discernmentfilter that you can put
everything through and say, isthis for me or is this not for
me?
Does this move me closer or doesit move me further away?
So many people are outsourcingand I understand it'cause I did
it for so long.
(37:04):
They're outsourcing theiranswers, right?
Instead of like.
Taking learning and thenapplying it to yourself.
It's outsourcing, oh, thisperson told me to do this.
That's what I'm gonna do.
Yeah.
That didn't work out.
So now I'm gonna go to thisperson and they're gonna tell me
what to do and I'm gonna do it.
And that didn't work out.
You're not spending the time,the energy, the resources,
(37:24):
finding your way.
Tracie (37:26):
Yeah.
Jen (37:26):
And that's the work I love.
That's like the definition,
Tracie (37:28):
it's like the definition of thought leadership, right?
Yeah.
Like it's your own thought.
Yeah.
Leading you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
To where you have decided thatyou actually want to go and not
Exactly.
Jen (37:40):
And that is my thought leadership is helping others
find that silver bullet withinthemselves, right?
Identity, courage.
You know, belief, like all ofthose things.
And then from there, the actualcreation of what you want,
whether it's business, personal,profe, like any of that becomes
so much easier and enjoyable.
Tracie (38:01):
Yeah.
So good.
So good.
Thank you.
So I was thinking as I wassaying that, or, uh, I was
thinking, you know, about theidea of mentorship and people
that are our mentors, whetherwe've ever met them or not,
right?
Mm-hmm.
Books that we've read,podcasters.
Celebrities, whatever, they'vedone all the things or whatever,
and we can take those pieces.
(38:22):
But ultimately, like you said,if we don't put those through
the filter of, is it actuallyfor me or is it just Yeah,
pretty shiny.
Jen (38:30):
Yeah.
Tracie (38:30):
Successful over there,
Jen (38:32):
you know, and like personal development.
It's not good, bad, right orwrong, but we would not have a,
what is it?
Like an 8 billion a yearindustry, if what was out there
was working for folks.
Tracie (38:45):
Yeah.
Jen (38:46):
We want.
Tracie (38:47):
Yeah.
Right.
Because the people are alwaysstill looking for more.
Jen (38:49):
Yeah.
They're, they're, they're, youknow, intaking all these inputs
because the work is, can feelhard.
It can feel scary.
It can feel, and like humanbeings, we are not wired for
that.
Yeah.
But that is the work,
Tracie (39:06):
and that's why, that's why I love
Jen (39:08):
Yeah, go ahead.
Tracie (39:08):
Yeah.
Well, I was gonna say, that'swhy I love coaching, because
mm-hmm.
I feel like you have to be.
Like one-on-one or in smallgroups.
Mm-hmm.
To really get to that placewhere, yeah.
If you're doing something biglike a po, I mean, yeah.
I'm not saying my podcast isbig, but you know, you do a
podcast and it's likebroadcasting to the masses and
hopefully someone will getsomething.
(39:29):
Yeah.
That will take a nugget in adirection.
Jen (39:32):
Yep.
Tracie (39:33):
But it's not the answer.
Right.
Right.
It's not gonna
Jen (39:35):
help you embody
Tracie (39:37):
Yeah.
Jen (39:37):
The word.
Yep.
Tracie (39:38):
I love that.
Beautiful.
Jen (39:40):
Okay, so good, Tracie.
Tracie (39:42):
We're gonna make sure that everyone can find you, you
know, all of the links.
Yeah.
And all of those things.
And before I, I wanna leave youwith the last word, but before
we do that, I just wanna thankyou for being here.
Jen (39:56):
Thank you because
Tracie (39:57):
we've been looking forward to this for like a month
or something on the calendar.
Yep.
Off and on.
And I knew that this was gonnabe such a fun conversation'cause
every time I'm with you I amlike extra juice to go like,
have an impact.
Aw, thanks Tracie.
Fun and I appreciate that andyou're welcome.
But I also thank you.
Um, I do wanna leave you withthe final word.
(40:19):
Like what?
Any last words.
Jen (40:21):
Oh my gosh.
Find your mirrors.
I had to use my husband thismorning to be a mirror for me.
Uh, I woke up not feeling it.
I woke up down and doubtingmyself, and I knew who to go to
for support.
Find your mirrors and use them,and so you can remember who, and
hopefully they're easilyaccessible.
(40:43):
Right, right, right.
But you know, whether it's acoach, a therapist, a friend
that like find, even if it's oneor two people, find those people
and allow yourself to bevulnerable enough.
'cause in my opinion, vulnerableis strength.
Be vulnerable enough to say,Hey, I could use a bit of a
boost.
Hey, can you help me rememberwho the FI am?
Tracie (41:07):
I love that.
Jen (41:08):
Thank you.
Tracie (41:09):
Thank you.
Um, Jen Vernan, I'm saying itagain so everyone knows how to
say your name.
Jen (41:14):
Yeah, you got it right.
Tracie (41:15):
Jen Ton.
Thank you for being on thepodcast.
I appreciate you and I am soinspired by you.
And thank you, Tracie.
I'm so glad that we'reconnected.
Thank you again.
Jen (41:25):
Well, and ditto.
I can't wait to turn the tablesand have you on.
Tracie (41:30):
Thank you for listening to the Bold and Brilliant
podcast.
I'm your host, Tracie Root, andI wanna invite you to check out
the show notes, find out whereyou can connect with our guests,
find out more about what I andthe Gather community have to
offer you, and be sure tosubscribe to this podcast on
your favorite platform.
Thanks so much.
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