Leading, Learning, and Mentoring: A Journey of Lifelong Growth with Marc Majers

Episode Transcript
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Todd Bertsch (00:17):
Welcome back to the Bold Podcast.
I'm Todd Bertsch, your guide onthis exciting journey of
personal growth and leadership,where my guests and I will share
personal stories from ourtransformational journeys of how
small changes can lead tomassive results.
You'll discover tips onovercoming obstacles, setting

(00:37):
and achieving goals, buildinglasting habits, developing
confidence, living a happy,healthy and positive life, and
so much more.
If you're ready to cultivate agrowth mindset and become the
best version of yourself, thenlet's ignite your growth today.
I'm thrilled to welcome today'sMarc, Majers, to the show.

(01:02):
With over 25 years of Marc,has made a significant impact as
a user experience leader,having held key positions at
major Fortune 500 companies likeHyland and Progressive, where
he currently serves as the headof user research.
Marc's devotion to educationshines through in his roles as a

(01:23):
web design instructor atCuyahoga Community College, the
University of Akron and KentState University.
He also contributes to thecommunity as a mentor with UXPA
International.
Beyond his professionalachievements, mark is also an
accomplished author, havingpenned notable works such as

"Make your Customers Dance (01:44):
The Key to User Experience is
Knowing your Audience and Don'tFear the Forward the Secret to
Building Successful Websites.
Outside of his Marc, enjoysspending quality time with his
family and pursuing his passionfor music.
He's recorded five albums,co-hosts a music podcast called

(02:04):
Tunes Mate and has been DJingspecial events for over 30 years
.
Listeners, this is going to bean amazing episode.
Please enjoy my conversationMarc Majers.
Mark, it is so good to see you,my friend.
Welcome to the Bolt Podcast.

Marc Majers (02:22):
Glad to be here, Thank you.

That is quite a bio.
I am always amazed by how muchyou've accomplished in your
career and in so many differentareas, and there's a theme
that's stood out to me that Iwanted to dig into, and that's a
lifelong commitment to leading,learning and mentoring.
Those are commitments that arereally near and dear to me and I
just love to dig into those.
So your journey in UX hasspanned over 25 years.

(02:55):
How has your leadership styleevolved over time?

Yeah, that's a good question.
Hey, once again, todd, thanksfor having me here on the
podcast.
Yeah, that's a good question.
Hey, once again, Todd, thanksfor having me here on the
podcast.
What's interesting is a lot ofwhat I've been raised on and if
you think about this, it comesfrom your core when you start
and actually I was in scoutingearly on and if you are familiar
with scouting, there's a lot ofcore.

(03:23):
There's a scout law.
You know scout is trustworthy,loyal, helpful.
You know you can go down thelist.
Then you also think about thescout motto.
But I think that's what started.
It all was that I startedleading there and you, when
you're a youth, you get theopportunity to be the senior
patrol leader and then you get achance to lead in an outing and

(03:46):
when you're out in thewilderness, it's you and the
wilderness.
So you really have to understandand be prepared for what you
have to encounter out there.
So I think that was thebeginning of it, but then, as
evolved, it led into a lot ofmistakes.
You know, you think about thethings you've done and you go

(04:06):
hmm, I'm not going to do thatnext time.
Or you see a mistake thatsomeone else had made and you go
hmm, why did they do that?
And there's a lot of ways tolearn and I know we're going to
get into this, but for me it'sjust been a constant figuring
out how to become better.
And I think it came from justthat early scouting connection,

(04:29):
because you're earning meritbadges, you're learning about
new things, you're learning howto interact with people, you're
trying to figure out how you canbe part of a team and also you
have to learn yourself how toimprove.
So I think there's a lot ofconnection there.

Yeah, absolutely.
Now did you end up being anEagle Scout?

I did yeah, and that's a whole other story I can
probably get into.
But that was also a challengebecause the Eagle Scout at that
time and they've evolved therequirements over the years.
But you had to not only getmerit badges and then be in

(05:11):
there amount of time withrequirements, but then you also
had to do a service project.
So if you think about that, ifyou start thinking about service
projects and how that getsingrained in you, you are
helping others without expectinganything in return, which, when
you're young and you thinkabout that, that doesn't make a
lot of sense.
You're like well, wait a minute, no, I'm working, I should be

(05:34):
earning some money to pay forsomething.
So that started my mindset.
And then I think from there youwork hard to get your ranks and
move forward.
So that just kind of instilledme.
Well, isn't that just how it iswith everything?
So then you start applying that.
But as you move forward and youstart trying to adapt to

(05:57):
technology, there's so manythings that you think about when
you go to a new school or whenyou get a new job that you think
about when you go to a newschool or when you get a new job
.
You keep learning and you keepmoving forward and trying to
understand how you can add value.

Yeah, yeah, I love it and I think there's
tremendous value in being in BoyScouts or Girl Scouts and it's
funny scouts or girl scouts.
And it's funny when I recruitand look for employees if I see
that they were a scout, orespecially an Eagle scout, like
absolutely.
But I just think the program ingeneral is a great way to train

(06:39):
and get kids involved in earlyleadership and the best part is
servant leadership, right.

That's it.

It's not about what you take, it's about what
you give.
And there's just so we could,we probably should.
There probably should be anepisode just on scouting and the
principles of leadership andhow that influences, you know,
young people and the adults, youadults, because the adults
parents are really involved aswell.
So I love that you brought thatin.

(07:10):
I knew that about you, but Iforgot about it.
So yeah, I would imagine thatshould be a great influence.

It starts you on the right, makes you start
thinking about things and italso allows you to explore a
career path, which is alwayssomething interesting.
You think about it A lot ofpeople.
When you get into scouting,they say, well, look at all the
merit badges.
Did you become one of thethings on there?
And the strangest thing is Inever got the music merit badge.

(07:38):
I never got the computing meritbadge, and I wondered how I
ended up with.
Those were my two careerpassions.
Maybe I had to find out what Ididn't like, which also is
something that's important inlife.

Yeah, absolutely so.
Yeah, that's a great segue intojust your passion.
You're passionate about so manydifferent things and you're a
very driven person.
Where does that drive, wheredoes that passion come from?

Yeah, that's interesting.
So when I was young I talkedabout scouting.
I talked about the friends yousurround yourself with.
I had a best friend that had aphotographic memory.
I don't know if you knowanybody with a photographic
memory, but you can close youreyes and you can basically get
an A-plus on every single test.
That wasn't me.

(08:26):
I had to write out note cards,I had to study hard in order to
move through that.
So that started making me thinkabout what we take for granted.
And then at a young age, I alsofound out that I was adopted.
And when that happens you startrealizing wait a minute, I
shouldn't take what I have hereof my family for granted.

(08:48):
And it makes you look aroundand go I'm going to work harder.
I'm going to work harderbecause I don't know what
tomorrow is going to bring andyou actually.
It makes you think differently,and I'm involved in a couple of
nonprofits locally.
One's called the AdoptionNetwork Cleveland.
They've allow many that areadopted, try to reconnect and

(09:13):
understand who you are.
And that's an interesting thing.
If you think about yourbackground generally, family is
one of the first things everyoneasks you about.
What's your background, what'syour family from?
And for many years, I would sayI don't know.
So that leaves you to justcontinually try to prove

(09:34):
yourself.

I'm a big, big believer in gratitude.
In fact, I start every morningwith a five to 10 minute
meditation.
Every morning with a five to 10minute meditation, and part of
that is reflection and goingthrough a gratitude process.
There's nothing better thanthat that sets the tone for the
whole day right.
It gets you in a positivemindset, pushes back any

(09:57):
negativity and, honestly, ifyou're living in that positive
mindset and you're full ofgratitude, it makes life a hell
of a lot easier.

So, yeah, that's a great mindset to be in.
Yeah, and what's interesting is, over the years you asked me
about how leadership has evolved.
I think, it's the other leadersyou meet, and I had the
opportunity to serve with manygreat leaders.
One comes to mind where I wouldjust pop in at the end of the
day, when I knew I asked Anotherthing is many leaders you think
they're busy, so you have toask them when is a good time?

(10:39):
Is it ever a good time to popin?
And you can find differentperiods.
Some say, come around the endof the day, you know I'm
wrapping things up, you know I'mgetting my.
So I found one leader that said, yeah, if you ever just want to
pop in and it was a topexecutive at one of the
companies I worked at I wouldwalk past their office and I
always be busy.
And I poked my head in and theytold me.
They said you know, whenever Igo into a meeting I'm always

(11:01):
going in thinking I want to comeout with a resolution, like
there's a.
You know I'm going in with anopen mind and I want to come out
with something.
Sure, there's times where youcome out with nothing, but that
should only be about 1% of thetime.
But they also said somethinginteresting to me is that you
constantly have to stay humble,positive, and those are very

(11:27):
difficult things to do in adaily basis because there's
always something that seems tobe detracting from that moment.
But as you turned me on to thepositive intelligence, it says
you acknowledge it and you sayokay, that happened and move on.
And that is something that I'veheard.
But not until you startpracticing that that it really

(11:48):
helps you move forward.

Yeah, absolutely yeah, you know you're speaking
my language positiveintelligence.
Shazad Shamim.
It's amazing program, amazingbook.
I think I talk about it inevery episode, so obviously it's
been important to me.
It really helped change my life, a big part of my
transformation.
But, yeah, the key there isreally finding the gift and the

(12:10):
opportunity.
In every situation, everyscenario, however bad it may be.
There's a gift there and it'sfunny, you know a lot of people.
They like yeah, whatever manLike yeah, I just got in a car
accident.
What's the gift there, buddy?
Yeah, I know it sucks in themoment, but if you really dig
deep and think about it, thereis a gift.

(12:35):
Maybe it's telling you to slowthe hell down and pause in your
life and be happy that you'restill alive, and maybe it wasn't
even worse, you know.
So you just it's a differentmindset, you know, and when you
you make that small shift, it'samazing what you can do, what
you can achieve.
So, yeah, I love, love that.
I'm glad that you know you, youenjoy the book and you started
practicing it and it's likeanything else that.

(12:55):
You know it takes time and youneed to be consistent and
persistent to build that habit,that mental muscle to say, oh,
okay, there is a gift here.
Let me just pause, think aboutit, reflect.
But I want to go back to acomment you made about
leadership, and I love it.
You had mentioned about beingopen, open-minded.
I'm reading a book right now byShannon Lee called Be Water.

(13:19):
My Friend that's Bruce Lee'sdaughter Great book, not an
autobiography, but she's reallytouching on what she's learned
about her dad because she wasvery young when, unfortunately,
he passed.
One of the main conceptsobviously is water, and we can
talk about that all day and it'swonderful.
But one of his major conceptswas going into everything with

(13:42):
an open mind and he calls ithaving an empty cup.
So it's all about just beingopen and receiving Again,
finding that gift andopportunity, not being
judgmental but being discerningand really just taking it all in
and then responding instead ofbeing reactive.
So all these things really doplay into each other, right?

(14:03):
All these things really do playinto each other, right.
It's a beautiful thing, but ittakes time and somebody really
needs to make that part of theirlife and take action.

Yeah, and something you just said struck me,
because what's interesting isand I know we've talked about
this in the past, but it's aboutyou being open but you're being
open to new ideas and that'shard, you know.
Sometimes you want to go andyou're being open to new ideas,
and that's hard.
Sometimes you want to go andyou want to try a new idea and
maybe the timing isn't right.
So this gets into the draft boxidea.

(14:36):
We all have ideas.
We probably think of themconstantly, all the time.
But can you do them?
Is the timing right?
Maybe you still need to do somemore research on it.
Maybe, if I tell you right now,you're going to say, no, maybe
I need to build an argument whythat's a good idea.
So put in your draft box, writeit up, put it in your email

(14:58):
draft box and come back to itlater.
And sometimes, sure, your draftbox may have hundreds, in your
case, of ideas.
But then when you're in aconversation with someone and
someone says, hey, you know, I'mthinking about doing that.
You already have the idea inyour draft box and within about
10 minutes, when they get backto their desk or whatever
they're going, all of a suddenthey have something.

(15:20):
Hey, I'm just following up.
You were talking about this,but have you thought about?
And they're like, how did theydo that?
Because I already thought aboutit, probably a year ago or
maybe it was yesterday.
I think timing with ideas is keybecause we all have them and
I've been told my whole lifeyou're an idea guy.
You come up with a lot of ideas, but you only can execute so

(15:40):
many of them, so you have to beselective with the ideas you're
going to come across withsomeone that also comes.
That helps in that being openmoment, because if you're
listening and listening is partof that too you're being a good
listener.
And being a good listener iseven harder to just sit and
listen and not want to respond,and actually I'm not trying to

(16:01):
answer your question immediately, I'm actually listening for a
second before I do that.
And that also helps with thedraft box idea, because then
you're like well, I already gotan idea in the draft box.
I don't, I can, I can listeneasier.
My attention doesn't have to belike oh, I got to get my idea.

I already got it, yeah, and I think that all ties
back to being able to pause andreally coming into a
conversation whether you're aleader or you're an employee, a
student or whatever coming inwith an open mind, pausing, but
with the mindset of being acoach, right, so you're there to
ask good questions and to be anactive listener and to guide,

(16:39):
not to answer, just.
You know, most people just wantto talk, they want to get their
ideas out, they want to beheard and that's a win, right.
And then you go from there andwhen I come back to, yeah and I
would say too, you know, I wouldcoin you as the idea guy you
are just constantly coming upwith tons of great ideas.

(16:59):
How do you manage those ideas?
Is it frustrating to have allof these ideas and only execute
on a few of them?
So, if you're using this draftbox strategy and, as I said,
I've seen your draft box attimes, a hundred drafts in there
and not all of those are ideas,some of those are just you need
to vent, right, and just get itout on paper, which we talked

(17:21):
about.
What's your process fordetermining what you do and what
you don't do, because you haveso many different passions, as
we went through in your bio.
You're an author, you lovewriting.
You're an educator, you loveteaching.
You love mentoring.
You have a huge passion formusic.
You write your own music, yourecord your music, you record

(17:45):
your music, you edit your music.
You're a dj.
You also have your own podcastfor many years.
How do you manage?
So?
You have a lot of passions anda lot of drive and a lot of
ideas.
How do you manage all thosethings?

really that's a loaded sorry that's a loaded one
, but well, there's a lot tounpack there, but I think
there's a couple of key things.
One is at an early age I wastold and I believe it was one of
my high school teachers thattold me that and it's a cliche,
but it really sank in my brainthat you have to do something
that you love, and if you lovewhat you do, everything else

(18:24):
will follow.
I always thought about that.
I said is that true?
It takes a lot of energy tothink about that in itself.
So if I just do what I love,then everything's going to work
out.
I don't know if that's true.
I said, okay, well, at an earlyage I got a computer and I did
computer programming and Ireally liked that.

(18:46):
So I started learning how todevelop.
Then at one point I went tocollege and I said well, no, I'm
going to let that go away.
I think I'm going to become alawyer.
Yeah, that sounds good.
So I was convinced by thisprofessor that you'd be a really
good lawyer.
So I got accepted into lawschool.
I was going to be a lawyer.
And I came home from the summerand I told my mom I go, you

(19:10):
know, do I have to go to lawschool, can I?
I always wanted to be a radioDJ.
Do you think I can try that?
And my mom was so angry with me.
She said, after all, thatyou're going to go be a radio DJ
.
She's like fine, take thesummer off, go be a radio DJ.
So in college I worked at thisAAM station.

(19:32):
So I just put together thislike demo tape they would call
it quote unquote demo tape and Isend it off to some local
Cleveland stations.
And I remember I was like twomonths went by, I got nothing
and I was walking to theCleveland Marshall law school
and I was like okay, I'm justgoing to no one.

(19:52):
And my phone rang and it wasthis radio station that said
we'll give you a shot, why don'tyou come on down?
And I was like, what for mydemo tape?
So I went there and then fromthere I ended up getting an
internship over at Q104, eventhough because I was kind of in
the middle of college.
And then while I was therethere was an ad that said no

(20:15):
experience necessary, webdesigner.
And I said, well, since I'mhere already doing this radio
gig, I might as well apply.
Two weeks later I get a callthat says I want you to come
down, show us what you have.
So I went into the interview.
I didn't hear from this webcompany for a while, so I called
up the one day and I said do Igot the gig?

(20:35):
And they said well, look atyour resume, I see you have an
Eagle Scout.
Why don't you come on down?
So I ended up, I got the radiogig and then I got this
internship at this web company.
The next thing, you know,started doing the things that I
love.
Now it took me many, many yearsto actually become able to move

(20:58):
out of my parents' home withthose two jobs.
But if you think about it, Idid what I was told.
I did go down the things that Ilove, and I think that's what
drives the idea bank.
It's the things that are goingin.
There are the things that Ifeel as though I can have the
highest contribution in and thatI really, really am passionate

(21:19):
about, and I tell people.
It's like I'm not putting ideasin there how to become the next
best plumber.
I'm putting in things that areeither music, web-related,
tech-related I mean they'reideas that are still related to
each other.
So it's just trying to figureout which one.

(21:40):
Can you a couple of things.
One can you get something thatcan get done?
Kind of put them in a bucket.
It's like can I get this onedone within the next couple of
weeks?
Probably Is this something thatis going to take me longer,
probably years.
So you start creating goal listsbased upon how much time these
things probably will take, andthen you have to also set up at

(22:05):
the end of the year what am Igoing to try to do this year?
And we always joke about what'syour mantra this year, and you
come up kind of with a mantra.
Sometimes it takes me a couplemonths like it could even be
like February, and I come upwith it, but then I pretty much
put everything underneath thatmantra.
It's kind of like my lifemantra for that year, and then
everything trickles down fromthe goals from that mantra.

(22:25):
So it's constantly creatinglists, it's constantly creating
ideas, it's trying to figure outhow much time is available,
being very strict on your timemanagement.
For example, I try to monitorhow much time I spend online,
and sometimes it may only be anhour a week I spend online, and
sometimes it may only be an houra week.
How is that possible?

(22:46):
Think about how much time youcan get sucked into Instagram,
tik, tok, all these things.
I'm not saying I'm not an angelfor, for, for getting sucked
into these things, but you needto set up time limits.
Why?
So you can get to your list ofthings.
You need to do the other listbecause you can instantly get
pulled away by distractions.
Yeah, oh yeah, and that takesdiscipline.

It does.
Yeah, everything takesdiscipline and time management.
Absolutely, I'm a big fan, I'ma geek nerd and all of that.
You know my outlook.
I use one calendar.
My outlook has everything in mylife.
My outlook has everything in mylife all the different meetings
associated with my businessevolved marketing but I also

(23:29):
have all my personal stuff.

Reminders.

One calendar.
So I see it, it's visible andmy wife makes fun of me.
But yeah, I have go play withPresley, my daughter.
I want to make sure that I havetime.
It's easy to get caught up,especially when you're a leader,
when you have bigresponsibilities as an owner or
a leader in a company, so timemanagement is absolutely key and

(23:51):
, yeah, I'm going to have anepisode just devoted to that,
because I think there's a lot ofthere's a whole process to it.

There is, and everybody's different.
There's books, but just to hearwhat those?

yeah, there's some really great books on time
management as well, but I wantto go back to fulfillment piece.
You know, in the passions and Ilove how you phrase it it's all
about a journey, right?
It's embrace the journey.
It takes time and I think foryoung folks that might be
listening, don't be afraid totry different things and fail.

(24:20):
Right, Mistakes are onlylessons and that's how we grow.
And then you find what youreally love and what you're
passionate about and then maybeyou have an idea when you're
young.
But oftentimes that changes andthat's okay, it really is.
But if you find it, very fewpeople are able to do what they
do every single day.

(24:41):
That is their gift.
Why everyone?
is meant to be here for a reason.
If you can really tap into whyyou're supposed to be here and
what you're supposed tocontribute to the community.
That's a beautiful thing and Ithink that's where kind of that
passion, fulfillment comes in.
And then if you have theseother hobbies, like music or

(25:02):
writing or poetry or sports, youhave to carve that in.
You have to make time foryourself.
The best investment you canmake is on yourself and that
investment is not selfish.
That is going to trickle out toeveryone.
You serve everybody in yourcommunity.
That's beautiful man.

Yeah, sometimes it means giving up things that you
also love.
But that's where you we alwaysjoke about this.
You make that pros and conslist.
You sleep on it.
There's theories, there's manybooks.
I wrote a couple books, some ofthe things that I've read in
other books.
There's one by Daniel Pinkcalled when.

(25:42):
That talks about knowing yourchronotype, and a lot of people
don't think about that, but tome, I'm a big fan of
understanding how you function.
So that way, then youunderstand your strengths and
weaknesses and you know whenthere's a time of the day you
don't want to make a bigdecision, and that book talks

(26:03):
about that specifically.
But there are things like thatwhere, sure, you have to know
yourself, but then that passionthat we talk about, that's
something that you can't make up.
So if you're going to be doingsomething, if you're working
towards something, that passionhelps you get over the top,
sometimes when you're low, andyou know that this is something

(26:25):
that I love to do, so I'm goingto keep going.

Right, that's the energy bus.
Yeah, the passion.
Yeah, and that's just said.
When things are tough, whenyou're doing what you love, it
doesn't seem like work.
Yeah, and that's what I'm sureyou it's a cliche again, but
it's true.
It is, and I think you knowthis is what I try to teach my

(26:50):
kids.

you know find something you really love to do,
because you're going to do itthe rest of your life and you're
going to spend a lot of time atwork, unfortunately, so just
find something that doesn't feellike work, but also is
meaningful, that has an impact,and that's where the goal is.
That's the gold.
Yeah, and you brought up one ofmy passions, which is DJing,
and I've done that for a longtime, and one day I had to sit
back where someone asked me whydo you do it?

(27:12):
Is it about the music?
And I started thinking about it.
I'm a person that I'm listeningmore about the beat.
I don't really listen to thelyrics of the songs.
Of course I do when I'm playingan event where I have to make
sure it's the clean edit andthings like that.
But my point, though, is it'sall about the reaction of the
crowd trying to make a memorableevent for them, Because you

(27:34):
think about it.
You think about the events yougo to weddings, funerals, family
parties.
There aren't a lot of eventswhere you bring a lot of people
together, unless you have someannual outing you do with your
family right so this event isgoing to be very memorable for
them.
You have to pay attention tomaking it the best you can.

(27:56):
So to me that kind oftranslates across everything.
It's just making the bestexperience possible and and so
you joke about the userexperience.
But that's what it comes downto is making it memorable,
making it a positive, memorableexperience, and then that also
kind of translate acrosseverything too.
So there's kind of an umbrellathere.

If you think about it.
Let's talk about the educationpiece for a minute.
Sure, as someone deeplycommitted to education, I know
you've always been committed tothis.
What inspired you to startteaching and what do you find
most rewarding about it?

Well, I mean, it's interesting.
I'm going to make anotherscouting reference again.
But if you think about this, iffrom an early age, your goal is
to constantly learn and try tolearn new skills, there's a
scene I always think about thisfrom the Matrix and think about
Neo.
But he gets into a helicopterand he's like learn how to fly a

(28:56):
helicopter.
And it downloads into his brainand then a couple of minutes
later he's able to fly ahelicopter.
And it always makes me thinkabout when you're earning merit
badges and when you're learningyou're like oh, now I know how
to canoe.
Now I'm a certified, I know howto swim and do CPR.
And you start gaining all theseskills and all of a sudden you

(29:17):
feel empowered that you now havethis knowledge and you remember
the old knowledge is power wasat schoolhouse, rocks from back
in the day.

Yeah, I love those yeah.

It just it empowers you.
So it started me thinking okay,so I'm learning.
And then part of scouting theycall it the edge method.
Whereas you are able to reallyshow someone how it's done, you
guide them how to do it and thenyou enable them to do it on
their own.
So you're taught from an earlyage in scouting to guide someone

(29:50):
how to do something themselves.
So you're already teaching atan early age already.
The thing that I think did itfor me was when I was in high
school.
I was voted in grade school andthen early in my high school
career as the I guess classclown I would be the guy that

(30:11):
would be joking around.

Really.

And I had a.
His name was Dennis and I washis lab partner.
Is that Dennis the Menace?
His name was Dennis Densler andhe turned to me.
He's like so why do you act sosilly when actually you seem
like you're smart?
And all of a sudden the wholeworld started spinning around me

(30:36):
that I was like am I notapplying myself?
I learned so much in scoutingand I always was there.
But since I was always kind ofhad that entertainment bug in me
, all of a sudden it's justsomething snapped in me that
said, I've got to take this moreseriously, I've got to really

(31:00):
be able to learn more.
So from that moment I startedfiguring out that I have to
focus better on what I have infront of me.
But it wasn't until college.
So in college somethinghappened where I went to Bowling
Green and the computer systemput me in the honors dorm, even

(31:21):
though I wasn't an honor student.
And all of a sudden I startedabsorbing all these honor
students' habits, like, forexample, my roommate Ray would
stay up really late and beconstantly typing on his
computer, like writing theseessays, while I would look

(31:41):
around and most of the otherdorms had their lights off.
But he was determined I'm goingto get my PhD, I'm going to be
a professor one day, and so, allof a sudden, I started saying
I'm going to turn my light on.
So then I started typing andworking really late and you
start emulating those around you.
So that's the other thing withleadership is look around you

(32:02):
and see, you know, are therequalities that you want to
emulate from others, that arepositive, that can empower you.
And then that led me to well,if they want to be a teacher,
then maybe I should be a teacherand maybe I can try this.
So when I started my web designcareer, I thought, well, I went
and purchased a few web designbooks.

(32:23):
Remember Kelly Goto?
Remember I bought her book butit was written in all this like
jargon.
So I went and I purchased itfor my Cuyahoga Community
College students and they allread it and went wait, I don't,
professor, I don't understandwhat this means and that's what
made me write my first book.
I'm going to write a bookthat's in common language that

(32:44):
other people understand.
So I think that's what drivesit.
I think teaching is you start ata young age you are really
molded by others around you, butthen you also want to teach
someone what you know, but youwant to put it in your own words
so that it can resonate withthem, and sure you might be able

(33:04):
to refer to someone else's.
But I think part of the ideaprocess also is trying to find
analogies that people understand.
That hasn't been done beforeand I think that also helps.
So that's where some of theideas come in.
It's where you're trying tomerge in two different ideas
into one to try to create ananalogy.
I know there's a lot there tounpack.

Yeah, no, there is , but I think it comes back to
two themes that have been thecentral theme of this
conversation, which ismentorship.
You love mentoring, so givingback, and being a servant leader
or just living a servant life.
So that's giving back,mentoring, coaching, sharing
your wealth of experience in away that somebody can understand

(33:47):
it, and that is the challenge.
And students can be challengingand I, you know, I taught for
many years.
You got me into CuyahogaCommunity College and that was
great.
I love teaching there.
You know, way different than atypical university those kids
well, adults were, they wereready Right Non-traditional
students.
Non-traditional, mainly evenings, and they were really focused
and determined and open to yourideas and I, you know like you

(34:10):
would bring tons of referencesand really pour into it, hoping
if you can inspire one student,and I'll just share a story of
that.
Most recently, there was astudent I had when I was
teaching at the University ofAkron in corporate identity
class, my favorite class, andshe was a great, great student.
I knew she was going to do welland we've stayed in touch over

(34:32):
the years and she was a creativedirector at several ad agencies
.
And then that agency gotacquired and she went out and
she just said you know, I'mgoing to do my own thing, I'm
going to freelance, that I'mgoing to do my own thing, I'm
going to freelance.
And then she started her ownbusiness creating thank you
cards and personal cards andstickers and all these fun
little items that you can buy.

(34:52):
It's really great stuff.
But all that to say that Ipurchased one of her thank you
card sets as a gift to one of myfriends this past holiday and
then I let her know.
I said, hey, I just wanted youknow.
She saw my name on it in thepurchase and then she emailed me
and said thank you, sent me anice thank you, one of her thank

(35:12):
you cards in the mail.
But thank you, you know, sogreat.
I never thought I'd have, youknow, one of my mentors or a
professor like purchase one ofmy things.
So it was a full circle momentand it kind of got teary-eyed.
It was like this is very cool,that's why we do it right.
It's those moments ofinspiration when you can inspire

(35:33):
somebody to do something or bebetter, to grow, and that's
really all we're trying to doright, and that's what
leadership's all about.
I agree with you.
So, looking back on yournumerous accomplishments, what
are you most proud of?
I know this is going to be atough one for you, but if you
could pick one, what would thatbe and why?

You kind of think of this thing recently where
it's like Taylor Swift eraswhere you look back.
So I would probably have tolook back at pinpoints.
I don't know if I can nail itdown to one thing in my career.
I would say that starting outjust randomly answering an ad

(36:18):
out of the back and gettingstarting as an intern and
working there for 90 days at nopay and then get hired on to me
that was one of the firstamazing things was that I just I
decided not to follow thiscareer path that I thought I was
going to do because someonesome professor told me I should

(36:39):
try it and then follow my ownpassion, and then ends up that,
you know, 20 something plusyears later, I'm still in the
industry.

Right.
So that's the radio station.

Yeah, that was.
So I think that moment you evengo back before that, you know
you talk about Eagle Scout.
That was a really challengingthing to get.
I was the only one in my wholeclass that got it because our
troop had disbanded and I had tofind another troop to get it.
That took extra effort, but Iwas determined I'm going to get

(37:11):
this thing.
So I think, now that I'mtalking about this and thinking
about this, I think the onething and it may come across as
maybe cliche, it may come acrossas maybe not an honest answer,
but I really think it's justhaving the opportunity to learn,
which is weird if you thinkabout that.
So think about my background.

(37:31):
I was adopted but I ended upgoing to.
I was able to go to college.
I was able to then go for amaster's degree.
When I went for the master'sdegree, when I was at Highland,
I was part of their tuitionassistance program where they
paid for my entire degreebecause I worked there, and so
how lucky is that to get part ofa company that supports your

(37:54):
education.
I just think it's thatopportunity.
And you look back.
I'm sure I've written books,I've done albums, I've done all
that stuff.
But to me it's just been how Ican artistically express myself
and get the thoughts out of myhead onto something that someone
can digest.
If you think about it, you lookback at books people have

(38:15):
written, songs that people havewritten.
Sometimes it could take someone12 albums before they're hit.
I mean there's a you look atlike REO Speedwagon that I think
it took them 12 albums.
If you wanna go back in the 80s, or some artists that gets a
little clip on TikTok that theywere.
Now they're working a fast foodrestaurant.

(38:35):
Next thing you know they've gota million views and they're
going back out on tour.
Yeah, you never know Right.
So I think it's hard for me topinpoint one, because I could
say one today and then tomorrowit could be something different.
So to me, I think it's goingback to that gratitude thing of
just having the opportunity towork on the passions that you

(38:59):
love and be able to share themwith people.
Maybe it's because we were bornin the internet era where you
could just release whateveronline.
Think about that.
People never had thatopportunity in the past, so it's
really hard.
I don't think I can give you aparticular answer.

Yeah, that's fair.
You have so many.
I thought it would be tough.
I thought you would say books,because I know you really really
wanted to publish a book andyou published two, yeah, but you
also published five albums.
So you've done so many things.
But I love your answer and I dothink that is really honest.

(39:37):
To me, it's about you're reallyembracing the journey.
Every journey is different.
You're just embracing all ofthese moments, but you're also
being selective and you're beingintentional about where you
spend your time, and you'respending time on the things you
love to do.
That's what life's all about,man, like you're living out, you

(40:00):
know your dreams Somethinginteresting.

I was thinking about this.
So the last book, so the lastbook I released was a few years
ago.
That book took me 10 years tocreate.
People go 10 years.
Well, so I had the idea and Inthe draft box.
Well, it actually was a phonecall, so I was in it.
The book starts out with thisstory.
So, spoiler alert, if you'regoing to purchase the book, I'll

(40:23):
give you a little tidbit.
But I was driving and my friendmy other friend, todd called me
and he said hey Mark do yourealize you're doing the same
two things?
I said what are you talkingabout?
He's like pull over.
I go no, he's like pull over.
I got to tell you.
So I pulled over.
And basically, djing and userexperience design.
He told me on a phone callthey're the same two things.
And I go oh my gosh, I got towrite about this.

(40:44):
How am I going to figure thisout?
You plan about it, you startwriting it down and I never
thought that book was ever goingto get completed.
It wasn't until being at homeand you think about COVID times.
Was COVID a gift or was it abad thing?
That happened?
A lot of people were able tocreate music.
They were able to do a lot ofthings they couldn't do before,

(41:05):
so they changed it intosomething positive.
So you think about that.
If that wouldn't have happened,I would have never been able to
create that book, because I hadthe time to go and do that.
So you don't know I meantomorrow, for all we know,
aliens could land and say hello.
Welcome.
And then, all of a sudden, theworld is different again and now
we have to adjust to that.
You think right now, aieveryone's talking about oh, ai

(41:27):
can do writing and that's takenover the world.
Well, sure, it is, but how areyou going to figure out how to
dance with AI or use it in yourday to day?

Start usingday Right.
Start using it Right.

We could go on and on about that Right.

There's always something, yeah, technology.

You just have to shift right.

It's just all about shifting and adjusting,
evolving.
I mean.
That's essentially all we'redoing, and change is good.
Change is good.

It's hard.

Our brains love change.
It fires off those neutronsright, Gets the dopamine pumping
Like we love.
We really do love change, asmuch as we may not think it.

It is really it's small increments, right yeah,
it's small.

Yeah, small doses, absolutely.
I want to circle back tofailure for a moment.
F word, and I really do hatethat word.
I'm doing an episode solely onfailure and I talk about, you
know, can we call it just whatit is, which is growth.
Let's quit saying fail forwardfailure, da, da da da Just call

(42:35):
it what it is growth.
You know, without failure,without those mistakes, we can't
grow.
That is the best way to learnand for those of us that have
been perfectionists most of ourlives, that can be a tough thing
and it took me a while to getthere, but I guess I just, you
know I love to share with theaudience because I feel like

(42:56):
people are afraid to take risks.
You, know, and you've taken somany risks because you have so
many different passions andyou've.
You know, on the outset itlooks like man.
This guy is super successfulFive albums, two books, master's
degree, going for his doctorate, very successful, 25 years in

(43:17):
the career that he loves.
But I'm sure there were somebumps along the road and we
don't have to dig into theactual bumps, but tell us about
how have you handled those bumpsand those failures and you know
any advice you could give tolisteners.

Sure, so I was thinking about this, and you
mentioned earlier that I alsohave a podcast called Tunes Mate
, and we interview artists andwe talk about music, but one of
the common threads that I foundinterviewing musicians and this
is something that I then Istarted realizing.
Well, wait a minute I think thisjust relates to life period is

(43:54):
that they have many differentways that they keep active.
For example, I can go on tour,I can teach music lessons, I can
sell albums.
I can teach, I can go play on asoundtrack to a movie.
I can do all these things.
One of them is probably goingto be the majority of the

(44:14):
breadwinner that you're going tobe focusing on, but you see,
it's still with underneath themusic umbrella.
So, if something, if, forexample, right now, music
artists aren't making any moremoney on selling music anymore
that was the thing that was likein the 80s and 90s probably
died around 2000.
So they're making money touring.
Now you have to figure out howdo I tour, how do we get out
there and do that?

(44:35):
Some of the aging musicianscan't.
They then have to pick up aresidency or they have to do
something different.
But I think that's the key.
I think if you can keep yourself, obviously you want to try to
keep yourself in one genre, likeI said earlier.
I made about the plumbingexample.
I'm a professional plumber andalso I own a digital marketing

(44:57):
company.
That may be challenging, butwith underneath a very specific
spectrum, you may be able tobranch out and then maybe at
different points as the marketshifts, you then focus more on
one thing and then another andyou're going to fail.
I mean, you're going to go ohyeah, right now I'm going to go
on tour, and then you realizethat you can't succeed just

(45:21):
playing acoustic guitar.
I'm probably going to have tobring in some other band members
, or I'm going to have to makesome adjustments, or maybe I
have to figure out how to getmore into the studio and start
recording some soundtracks forsome podcast series or something
.
I think that's what I've learnedis part of the journey is

(45:43):
you're going to try something.
It's not going to work out, butit's okay because you got four
other things you can fall backon.
I think a lot of us put youputting everything into one
thing, which is good, but youstill should.
Keeping those other platesspinning so if something does go
wrong, you can shift it over tosomething else.
Keeping those other platesspinning so if something does go
wrong, you can shift over tosomething else.
And I think that's a hard thingfor people to do because, once

(46:03):
again, with time management,well, how do I do that?
Well, I got to go spend timedoing this other thing.
Now I'm not saying that youcan't go out and you can't enjoy
yourself or do other things.
You have to figure out how toput limitations around that so
that you can keep those otherplates spinning.

It is, and I think I think it's also about just if
you're doing what you love,going back to fulfilling your
passion, so what?
You're happy, so what if itfails?
At least you tried it right,you have no regrets, and you did
or are doing what you enjoydoing.

(46:37):
I worked.

I worked, uh, that first web company I worked at.
I was there for five years andwe were five different names.
In five years we moved fourdifferent places.
If you remember that earlyturbulent era, I'll never forget
.
I was sitting at my desk the oneday and they came to me.
This was on a Thursday.
They said what are you workingon right now?
I said I just concluded all myprojects.
They said great.
They came in on a Friday.

(46:59):
They handed me a slip that saidyou're gone.
Since you're not workinganything, we're doing a little
simplification here.
So I walked out the front doorwith my box and my manager
pulled up in front of me withthis convertible that came down
and he said by the way, I wantto let you know I got fired too.
We're moving across the street.
We're forming a new company.
You're a director now.

(47:19):
So within a moment of callingmy mom, thinking like what just
happened, in a matter of momentsnow I've got to build a website
and have a team and have to doall this stuff.
So, once again, that living inthe moment it's difficult, but,
like we said, is those are thethings that I've learned.
Like when that happened to me,I thought I failed.

(47:41):
I was here.
You know it's my first job.
I guess I'm not valuable.
They let me go.
And you?
You really start doubtingyourself and then within five
minutes you're like no, I'm good, you got to be able to rebound
quickly.

Get back on that horse.

Don't give up.

Don't give up, that's right, and all the
different things you've done,all your accomplishments over
the years.
Is there anybody that's been ?
Yeah Well, that's probably atough one.
There's probably many, butanybody?

That's a tough one that sticks out.
I think it goes back to thebeginning.
It's you know your family, yourmom, your dad.
They instill in you.
They always gave me the freedomto explore, for example, when

(48:32):
Howie started playing piano.
One day I went over my aunt'shouse and they had an old organ
down in their basement.
You know one of those oldchurch organs you flip it on and
I flipped it on and I startedplaying.
And I looked up on the stairsand there was like 50 of my
family members and they're likeyou could play.
I'm like I didn't know, I justmade up a song.
So within a week I walk in myhouse.

(48:55):
My mom bought me a piano andput it in the basement and said
start learning.
Start playing.
So you think about it.
It's one of those things whereyou, if you're supported and
you're able to just keep tryingto make yourself better, that

(49:21):
really leaves.
So my parents helped me and Itry to instill that it's.
You know it's hard because youcome away with a lot of examples
in your life, but I think a lotof everything I referenced here
started early and I think thatresonates and I think that's why

(49:44):
I think it's important not togo on a tangent.
But if you think about withmentoring generally, most people
are earlier in their careers.
Some may be coming in, butthat's why it helps at the
beginning to give them the rootsso they can explore.
And I think it's important whenit's early in that development
process.
That's why it's so key to bepart of it, because you can go

(50:07):
many different directions andyou may not be able to rebound
as fast because you didn't havea strong beginning.

Yeah, I think we've all had mentors in our
life and different people thathave inspired us.
I did want to share one of mineas well, please.
So this was gosh.
This has been about 20.
Some years ago, you and I wereworking together, shared a cube

(50:34):
here.
I had been at this company fora decent amount of time.
I was really in a rut.
My marriage was failing.
It was not healthy, career-wiseagain, I had done everything.
There wasn't a whole lot to doat the company and I was very
proactive in trying to findthings.
And I just, I don't know, Iwasn't in a great place.

(50:55):
And here comes this guy walkingin, mark Majors, sits right
next to me, shares a cube, and Idon't think I've ever told you
this, but I had a little bit ofimposter syndrome, a little bit
of envy, because I'm like thisguy's got it together.
Man, I was so impressed by you.
You were using the latesttechnology and we were web

(51:18):
designers.
You were taking advantage of CSS, one of the newest technologies
at the time, and I don't know,I just felt like you were all
about learning and growth andfor me, I was very stagnant and
complacent where I was at.
I needed a boost and, whetheryou recognize it or not, you

(51:39):
gave me that boost.
You were a huge inspiration forme at a time when I really
needed it most.
And it's funny how the worldworks and when people come in
and out of your life right.
I am a true believer ineverything happens for a reason.
It was really cool and you knowI'm grateful for you coming
into my life at that moment.

(52:00):
And then you and I became veryclose friends and, in fact, you
DJed my wedding.
Now I don't know if you knowthis, but you are the only
person that has seen mebreakdance twice, Because you're
the DJ and you play the righttunes and you call me out, so I
got to go out.

I mean Nucleus, come on.

Nucleus jam on it.
So yeah, so I guess I just wantto say thank you for inspiring
me, and you didn't even have todo anything, I was just watching
.
I was just watching andlearning.

I'm going to throw it back at you, so I probably
never told you this either.
So when I started, we were cubeto know, cube to cube, and I
knew I was coming in.
There was another designer andI was like I really need to step
up my game.
And you know, I, you know thisis a, because I came from, you
know, just a lot of kind of likemom and pop kind of shops and

(52:51):
stuff.
You inspired me because weended up going to that web
conference together and then onthe flight, you know, you came
up with your idea for the, youknow your whole agency, I came
up with the first book idea andsupport.
You know we're going to do this.
So to me, I never, I alwaysthought of.

(53:11):
It was like instant chemistry.
It was like boom, let's just,let's just do this.
You know, we kind of fed offeach other and there were times
where you would go here and Iwould go there and we just keep
raising it up and raising it up,and raising it up and we go
okay, let's step away, let'sstep away.
I think we've inspired eachother too much at this point,
but we've pushed each other aswell.

(53:33):
And I think that's another keypoint of the discussion here
that I'm thinking about is thatwith mentorship, it's a two-way
street.
I always tell all the people Imentor I'm learning from you
just as much as you're learningfrom me.

And it can be from a peer.

It can be from a peer.
When I was teaching I remembermy first class I told everybody
that this is the one way I knowhow to use Photoshop, because we
were talking about, likeclipping around an image and I
knew there was another way, likeputting a path.
There's a million different waysand I said I'm going to show
you I can do this in fiveminutes quickly.
And I imagined that probablyanother way.
And I had people.

(54:11):
Well, you know, I said let'sjust try this way.
And then I came over to anotherstudent that eventually wanted
to become, eventually became acreative director down the road
too, and they said, well, here'sthe clipping path.
I said, well, that's great,let's show everybody that.
Put their screen on there.
And all of a sudden I learnedclipping path the same day.
I could still do it theoriginal way faster though, just
so you know.
But I did learn clipping path.
But still you learn things beingopen, learning, because that's

(54:34):
the thing when you're learning,you're always humble.
Think about that Right, if youconstantly are open to learn,
you always know that they'reprobably you know.
Think about the Fosbury flop.
I rate this.
I write this diagram down a lotwhen I go into a room.
We just had the the Olympicshappen.
But the Fosbury flop is longhurdle, you know you jump over
and since 1963, it's been.

(54:55):
You go backwards over.
The pole Hasn't changed.
But there were four other, Ithink three other methods before
that, and there's always abetter way.
How do you figure out what?
the better way is you have toconstantly learn.
So if that's not happening,you're not open, you're not
humble.
You can always admit that Idon't know that, and that's the

(55:15):
other thing I tell a lot ofpeople that are starting out is
it's okay to say you don't know,and you don't have to instantly
go to AI or Google to say whatis it In the moment, say I don't
know.

Right, I'll get back to you.

I had one senior leader tell me the one time when
I told him I knew something,he's like I know, you don't know
.
You can just go ahead and tellme you don't know, Because if
you tell me you don't know, thenI'm going to share with you
what I do know and you instantlyknow more.
I was like boom, Something goesoff in your brain.
So once I go, it just alwaysgoes back to the same thing.
And I know we keep talkingabout that.

(55:48):
No, that's okay.

I think that's the central theme of being open.

That's why it was so hard for me to pinpoint
something, because I just thinkthat freedom to allow yourself
to always learn, like today.
I've already written down threethings that I've learned.
I'll challenge all yourlisteners out there Today, when
you're going throughout the day,write down little things that
you've learned and you'd beamazed.

(56:12):
By the end of the day, you mayhave 10 things.
It could be even simple, as Ilearned that Joe doesn't like
popcorn because he used to workin a movie theater and he
doesn't want to smell popcornanymore.
It could be even somethingsimple like that.

Yeah, that's a great way to kind of cap things
off, mark.
It's all about having an emptycup and just being open-minded.
Leading learning, growth,continuous growth, mentoring.

Yeah, and I will tell you, as we said earlier, it
isn't automatic.
I mean, every day you're goingto wake up and you may not be
willing to learn something new.
You may not be willing to dothat.
That's why I think it'simportant to put reminders.
You've got your calendar.
But one other thing I would sayis, if you're sitting in front
of your computer monitor, yourlaptop, if it's a post-it note,

(57:05):
if it's whatever you want to do,a digital one, write yourself
things to remind yourself thatyou know what was the one thing
you learned.
Or write yourself something thatsays maybe I need to limit how
much time I'm spending today onblank and focus on something
else.
And those little reminders,those will help you, and I know
a lot of these help books tellyou that.

(57:26):
But how often do you do that?
That's the reality.

Oh yeah, I do all the time.
I have a daily journal,literally five minutes I spend.
I track 20 different habits, anda couple of things that I do
are I write down the things thatI learned and where my wins
were, how things were goingthrough the day, what was my
mood, what was my sleep.
So it comes back to justrepetition habit.

(57:51):
But yeah, a daily journalhighly highly recommended.
It's a great way to documentnot only ideas but also things
that have happened throughoutthe day, just to have that
mental record of it.
And it's a good practice towrite to old school like
literally write.
I love it, I highly highlyrecommend it and what's
interesting is.

So I try the Daily Journal.
I have a lot of friends that dothat.
It's been challenging for mefor the Daily Journal, so what I
figured out is for those thataren't able to do that.
What I figured out is maybeit's the idea draft box, maybe
it's just getting an idea intoyour draft box a day, maybe it's
for me.
There's some days where, causeI play piano every day, so
that's kind of my way that Ireflect, and there's some times

(58:34):
where I just rest my hand on thekeyboard and it's a chord I
never heard of before and I go,hmm, and all of a sudden I'm
writing a song.
Maybe it's just some way foryou to express something.
Maybe that's writing down anidea, putting an idea in the
draft box, writing a song,writing a poem, something, if
you are unable to get into thatrhythm and I know it takes

(58:58):
discipline.
So I feel like I'm on the wagonand I'm off the wagon on that,
but I do know that I'mdefinitely generating something
every day.

Yeah, I love that and that is a great.
I never thought of it like that.
But the draft box strategy iskind of a method of journaling.
It's just really getting thethoughts down, getting thoughts
down.
You know, and I'll admit, mypractice that took a couple of
years.

So that didn't happen overnight to be able to
journal, you know so, um,everything just takes time.

and it's about those small shifts, um and and
not beating yourself up becauseyou tried it, it didn't work.
Everything just takes time.
It's repetition.
It's all about being consistent.
Just practice, get the reps in,you know, eventually you'll get
there.
And it takes about 21 days fora new habit to form.
So they're tough, but habitsare the key to life.

Power of habits.
Whether you know it or not,it's a good book.
I would definitely recommendthat one too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, atomic habits.

That's another one that was built inspired by that
one too.
Yeah, I've read that one aswell.

Todd Bertsch (01:00:01):
Well, speaking of books and we're at the end of
the show here what are some ofyour favorite leadership books
or anything that you wouldrecommend to our listeners, and
what are you reading right now?

Marc Majers (01:00:12):
Yeah, there's so many.
The one that I just completedwas Arnold Schwarzenegger.
It's called Be Useful and youthink, well, what is he going to
share with the world?
I thought it was interesting.
It's seven rules that hefollows, but he tells stories
about how he failed and how inand out, and he's like, yeah, go

(01:00:34):
Google what happened with mymarriage.
That's fine, let's get that outof the way.
But let's focus on theseprinciples that inspired me, I
think, all these books we read.
You try to pull out what thenugget is and try to see how you
can bring that into your life.
Probably not going to do allseven of them, but there may be
something.
To me that's hard because Iused to listen to a lot of audio

(01:00:56):
books prior to the pandemic andit's been harder, but I've been
getting back to audio books.
So to me is, sometimes I gethalfway through the audio book
and then I finished it in printor some.
I've been all over the place,but to me that's been the most
recent one.
Just complete that one.
But there's so many out there.
I mean you can go back.
There's the classics that areout there.

Marcus, it's been wonderful reconnecting with you.
Any time that I get to spendwith you is time well spent.
Obviously, we always inspireeach other, we push each other.
There's always great ideas thatcome out of it, lots of just
great energy, which is what it'sall about.
Having wonderful relationshipsin your life that are meaningful
, positive that's what it's allabout and that's what you and I

(01:01:41):
have, and I hope that thisepisode inspires others as well.
Really appreciate you beinghere today.
How can people connect with youand learn all about you know,
purchase the book or find outabout some of the music that
you've published, or find out?

Sure, I mean, I could probably tell you hundreds
of places to go, but probablythe easiest place would just be
my website, just M-A-R-C-M.
So Mark M and I had somebodysay like, wow, you must have got
that a long time ago.
Well, yeah, I've been in theweb industry for a while.
Smart, so just by my first nameand then my last initial com
MarcMcom.

Excellent We'll have that in the show notes as
well.
Thanks, my friend, appreciateyou being on the Bolt.

No problem, I'll say one last thing.
We both shared a manager backin the day, krista, and I'll
never forget that on theirmonitor they had a little thing
taped Remember those big CRTmonitors that had the green
screen on them old school andthe one day I walked in there I

(01:02:46):
saw I was like that is the mostamazing quote I've ever seen in
my life.
It said if you stop learning,you stop leading.
And I was like what it's notattributed to anyone.
Really.
Yeah, it says it's pretty broad.
It says unknown, and I was likewhat it's not attributed to
anyone really yeah, it says it'spretty broad.

It says unknown and I was like unknown that's.
I love that even more.
Right, that's how we end.
If you stop learning, you stopgrowing and, honestly, you stop
living.

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