All Episodes

August 15, 2023 58 mins
This was my talk with JD Sassaman, the accomplished architect and innovation expert currently developing Ford’s E mobility facilities in downtown Detroit. We spoke about the importance of diverse experience and teamwork, the childlike joy of creation, and the close relationship between technology and creativity.


The views and opinions expressed within this content are solely the speaker's and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of Supplyframe or its affiliates.
Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It's a really interesting thing to bea part of a project both at this
scale and this close to what Ihave done in the past and what I
know how to do, which involvesletting go, so setting up the team
and the best ways that I possiblycan with the smallest number of software packages,
you know, the best sort ofoperational tetris, the most capabilities,

(00:24):
and then to handle it. TodayI sat down with the exceptional Jay Sassman,
with the Masters in Architecture from MITand a certificate in find Woodworking from
the College at the Redwoods. Jay'sbackground spans technology, craft and design.
Creating communities and enabling collaboration are atthe heart of Jay's work to support the
development of responsive future visions and responsibletechnologies. Jay's vast knowledge and skills have

(00:50):
recently been instrumental in the development ofFord's Innovation Campus, a groundbreaking project that
focuses on emobility innovation in downtown Detroit. We talked about the teamwork, cultivating
a positive work culture, and unlockingthe potential of individuals within a team.
Join us as we delve into Jay'sremarkable journey, exploring insights on technology,

(01:10):
design, craftsmanship, and the joyof creation. For the last few episodes,
I've been on the go recording throughoutother work, travel and kind of
being a one man band as faras recording goes. And unfortunately, I
was so excited to start chatting withJay I forgot to press record on the
mic mixer for this episode, sowe had to use the audio from the
camera recording. My apologies for thequality. This was still a fantastic conversation,

(01:32):
so I hope you'll be able toenjoy it regardless. Here's our conversation.
We live in a time where designand technology touch every aspect of our
lives. But where did it allcome from? Who designed it, how
was it built and brought to market? What will it look like in a

(01:53):
year, two years, one hundredyears. From the phones and smart watches
that help us in our day today to the cutting edge spaceships and three
D printers that are leading us intothe future. Modern design is constantly shaping
the way we work, communicate,problem solve, and play, and every
new design, bigger, small,starts with an idea and a bill of
materials. I'm a genta strongheart,and this is the bomb where we talked

(02:14):
to leading innovators in the tech worldand celebrate the transformational power of design.
So I wanted to reach out toyou like ever since you joined the committee.
So honestly it's like you had anemail drafted way back and then kind

(02:36):
of got you know, distracted withthings. And then recently was in Detroit
and caught up with NICKI, who'sa co chair of s SMC, and
she mentioned that you were involved inthe I think Ford's Innovation Center there and
a few people while I was therebecause I was talking to a few different
old shot connections, but also wasvisiting these Semens LIFT facility, which is

(03:05):
I should no, It's LIFT isin Detroit, MXD is in Chicago,
but they're very similar facilities and they'reboth also larger, yes, that are
sponsored by the Department of Defense.I know, I know exactly talking about
facility, right, and so andthen she mentioned, you know, you
were involved in this Forward campus andI was like, oh my gosh,

(03:27):
I really need to reach out today and like talk about all these things.
Yeah, and then it was reallyexcited when you're up to do the
bomb recording with you, So thanksfor joining me, and yeah, maybe
we can kind of start there.I would love for you to give kind
of the elevators feel on what yourwork is right now currently, and then
we'll kind of rewind into how yougot to there. Sure that makes sense.

(03:52):
The work I'm currently doing is workingas a consultant for that project in
Detroit you're talking about, which isthe Michigan Central Campus that Ford is building
in downtown Detroit with the focus onemobility innovation. And they've got a couple
of historic buildings on the site.They've got the Book Depository, the Michigan

(04:12):
Central train station, and they're renovatingthose spaces and building them out. The
first one to come online is thisbook depository. And so Ford reach out
to New Lab, who's got thisinnovation space in Brooklyn with like around six
hundred companies. They've got shared shopsat the center of it. They support
those companies in a whole bunch ofdifferent ways, and their Ford is working

(04:34):
with New Lab to create a newlab in Detroit. So I know New
Lab because they started up after westarted at the Pure nine workshop with Autumnist,
and they were familiar with our spaceand we gave them some advice on
setting up their space Brooklyn. Sowhen they're doing the second project. They
came back and said, you know, we've got a new projects Is there

(04:54):
any do you know anyone who couldhelp us out? And I was like,
you're like me, yeah, exactly, my hand up. So it's
been almost will it to be twoyears this fall that I've been working with
them, and it's been a superexciting project to go from a blank floor
plan to it's about twenty thousand squarefeet of fabrication facilities that I'm working on

(05:16):
as they're consultant, So everything fromspecking their scale and scope of what they're
going to support fabrication wise, whatkind of processes they want to have in
the house versus what they're gonna subout of house for their members, and
then all the way down to likethe blue tape and golf passes. So
it's like we've gone from big,big picture budgeting time frames, working with

(05:42):
the architects, you know, workingon all the mechanical ellectual specs and everything
down to specing the equipment, buildingout databases of equipment, procuring all the
equipment, checking that it's being received, working with the receiving team, helping
them get their shops staff set upand uh and then they're launching so members

(06:05):
are there, the shops are running, things are happening, and so the
members. This is a public accesskind of membership where you pay a fee
and you have a monthly you knowaccess or it's internal for Ford or so
Ford is a partners But New Labis going to run with Space okay,
and they're going to use the samemodels they have in Brooklyn, which is

(06:26):
you become you apply to be Labmember, and once you remember, you
can set up your company inside theirspace. They offer me coworking, you
know, medities as well as hopeyou get your company off the ground.
So once you're a new Lab member, then you can take classes and you
get it. Got it? Andwhat's usually or you said, this one's
focused on mobility. So can yougive us a few examples of what the

(06:49):
kind of member cross section is goingto look like? Most likely what kind
of companies are going to be involved? This really really interesting question and I'm
excited to see what the answer is. I think that they're going to bring
in members who are working out anykind of technology related to emobility. So
whether that's some kind of a sensorsystem that's going to go into a pack

(07:12):
and a door, whether that islooking at a complete vehicle, whether that
is final mile vehicle like a hoverboard, or whether that is a component of
a car truck and have no idea. I think, based on what I've
seen in other spaces, is thatthe smallest companies are going to come in

(07:35):
with a lot of energy and astrong idea and they're going to come out
as something very different. Yeah,that's what I would expect, and I
hope that the shops that we're buildingthere are going to allow them to physically
develop their product really quickly and runthrough those design iterations and ideas, concepts

(08:00):
and right be able to be experimentaland continue to change and evolve definitely.
And I'm already thinking, like mywheels are spending on who I might and
like there's so many people I knowthat should go check it out and maybe
get involved. You know. Asfar as the startups we've worked with in
the last few years, I've reallyinteresting solutions and kind of ideas around that
space. I'm kind of bummed Ididn't check out the space when I was

(08:22):
there to find a way to getin there and see it, because I'm
sure it's incredible, especially with thatkind of budget. It sounds like it's
a gorgeous building too. I meantwenty five foot ceilings and wow, just
huge windows and what are like thetop three tools or machines that you were
so exciting to get to purchase forthe space? It okay, Well,

(08:46):
my background is in furniture, findfurniture and woodworking, so respect the Martin
combo and I'm just like, thereis no I know, there are some
beautiful old machines, old joiners andplanners out there that you have to spend
like two days setting the naps on, but these Martin joiner and planner,

(09:07):
I'm just like I dream of gettingto use, yeah, as along with
like everything produced by festival. Yeah, but the wood shot is where my
heart is. Yeah, And youknow, I really wish we could get
a lay that I've said this beforeon on the podcast, like I would
love if we could get a laythe design loine, but we just can't
really justify it from home breaking perspective. That's like I would love to have.

(09:30):
That's it feels to me like oneof the thost fluid machines to work
on so much like like working withits med Yeah totally. Yeah. I
used to teach throwing classes in ChicagoManus in school there, so I also
totally hear what you're sitting out.It can be such almost like therapeutic,

(09:50):
Yeah, or you can just getin the zone and be developing something like
really intuitively yep, depending on whatyou're working at. Yeah, so of
course we're super us. Really,why can't I get this wall thickness right?
Right? Yeah? Awesome, Somaybe we could go back then.
Well, I'm kind of curious.I don't want to totally leave this project
yet with this board new lab space. How long do you continue to work

(10:16):
in your role with them beyond theopen date? Yeah, Well, it's
been an evolving project. So Ijoined almost two years ago and have gone
from that macro scale all the waydown into the micro. The space is
open, and it's been open fora few months now, so I think

(10:37):
it opened in April officially. Wehaven't cutting, and I'm going to be
working on that for probably another sixmonths. All of that is transition to
the team that they're bringing in torun the space, And it's a really
interesting thing to be a part ofthe project, both at this scale and
this close to what I have donein the past and what I know how

(10:58):
to do, which involves letting go, so setting up the team and the
best ways that I possibly can withthe smallest number of software packages, you
know, the best sort of operationaltetris, the most capabilities, and then
to hand it. So it definitelyis something new for me in terms of

(11:20):
just letting this go out into thewild, because I think that a lot
of what's exciting about these spaces issetting the culture and bringing people into that
culture in a way that will unlockmore possibilities and potentials for their team,
for their process, for the developmentof their product ultimately. But that interaction

(11:46):
is where things get super complicated andmessy and gooey and human and people.
It's beautiful, yeah, And Ithink it's also very exciting and very energizing.
So there's a part of this likehere asked about my favorite tools.
I certainly have, and I enjoyedgetting into the technical details and the capabilities
and sort of geeking out on thatend. But to me, the pistory

(12:07):
and most interesting challenges on the peopleand is what how does someone feel when
they walk into this space? Becausethat feeling I think reverberates through whatever they
definitely influence how they're able to workin that space comfortably, imaginatively, you
know, and really be I thinkbring them bring their best selves and their

(12:28):
best ideas each day that they're inthere. And so I'm curious on that
from that perspective, what do youreally what are something like key trades you
look for in these sea members doyou have? You know, I'm sure
it's obviously it's complicated, it's dynamic, but are there kind of some top
things that you're always looking for acrossthe board in hiring ins setting out these
teams. Yeah? Sure, awillingness to engage, be in it,

(12:58):
ask questions, answer questions, curiosity, Yeah, and and and be humble
in that. In some way,I can speak most directly to the team
that I've brought on to suspect thisspace and to develop this project, because
I've done my consultancy in a reallylean way where I've brought out or subject
matter experts. We've got about tendifferent technical areas everywhere from robotics to finishing

(13:24):
to casting, and you know,I've brought on somebody for each one of
those areas that I've been working withand in this role that I'm in,
and I think with any technical fabricationspace of this size, Nobody can be
the expert on everything, right.My job is to be enough to make
good decisions with those subject matter expertsand to ask a lot of questions.

(13:48):
And the fun part is that learningprocess. And I think for each person
in this that I work with,my goal is to bring on somebody who's
gonna who's gonna like, who's gonnaget me excited about their area of expertise,
that's gonna want to engage with us, We're gonna want to go deep,
but also somewhere in there like havefun absolutely and also want to keep

(14:09):
learning, like you're saying, andbe curious. I think that's super important
and something that I kind of likeone of my personal models. But never
grow up, never stop learning,and like never stopped growing. And I
think that that is one of myfavorite parts of You knows that I'm always
learning, not only new technical skillsand things that about other through other people's

(14:31):
experience and their stories. What's thelatest, you know, software they're using
the thoest tool for this this mechanicalprocess that they need to accomplish, but
also obviously those those like soft skillsor life skills or those kinds of things,
right, And I just I lovethe ear really prioritizing curiosity because I
think that's huge and like you said, kind of a homfulness to be an

(14:54):
expert but not be condescending or youknow, intimidate, which I think is
something I think anyone who's been ina shop space can relate to that feeling
when you feel like you might youknow, you're not going to feel welcome
to ask questions or make mistakes ina space. Yea, yeah, I

(15:16):
mean the asking questions. It alsobecomes a safety issue in a lot of
those spaces if you have if youhave a culture that's built around like silent
knowing, which also meets often silentlyknowing who the right person is to ask
and knowing when they're in the backof the shop to go bother them,
and like whatever else that you it'sfundamentally unsafe, you know, in the

(15:39):
shop spaces. That's clear you canget her physically, but it's also indicative
of what is underneath and just whatit feels like to be in those those
spaces, in those places, andthat it makes a ton of sense,
I mean, especially when you lookat the kind of technology that's coming out

(16:00):
like on a monthly basis for shops. When you're talking about metal three D
printers and you're talking about all thedifferent variety of materials and the different So
there is a new three D printer, right, you know every half an
hour that nobody's an expert, Right, you're always on and keep up with
the technology. Yeah. Yeah,I was curious when you're talking about software,

(16:22):
is there are there software sponsors forthe space yep? Okay, interesting,
So when you were talking about kindof picking the best softwork or operation
and stuff, is that covering mostlylike the back end of things, kind
of in the back end organization orliterally like the software that's going to send
the models to the tools, gonnarun the tools, etc. Or is

(16:45):
it kind of going to be upto the members because everyone puts in there
sometimes with their fager what they arelooking with. Sure, I think when
you're on the design side, itwould be up to members. And there's
certainly there are a couple of frontrunners because tools like Fusion are developing post
processors and connection to CAM that makeit easier to get onto a whole huge

(17:06):
variety of different machines. But whenyou're talking about you knowing handheld laser scanners.
Do you get two different scanners thatyou check their own proprietary software package.
Now you're paying for licenses, butalso your shop staff has to know
how to operate both, yeah,and like, and that's true in each
of these shops spaces. Just likehow many different manufacturers specific software tools are

(17:29):
you going to bring in because thatcan be a barrier of entry. Absolutely,
and it's just like endlessly frustrating.Yeah. Yeah, I think it's
awesome that you're being mindful of thatfrom the set of stage because that makes
such a difference again kind of eveninfluencing like the culture of how it's going
to run into the future and howthey're going to take on those challenges.
Okay, so I think we canspeak out on this. Yeah, we're

(17:52):
gonna take a quick break when wereturn. We talk about Jay's journey and
their current place in their career.You often unspoken opportuny costs of one's career
post maternity leave, as well asthe importance of engaging smart individuals for a
positive impact, and of course meetingsthat could have been emails. Welcome back

(18:18):
to the bomb. I'm a gentastrongheart. I'm talking to Jay Sassman.
We talked about Jay's current projects,and now let's talk a bit about Jay's
journey and the importance of making spacesto fabricate tools and teamwork, the abundance
of software and lack of reliable workforceto maintain these spaces, and the ingenuity
of children. I'd love to hearjust have your career hath getting to this

(18:42):
point. Also, I guess beforewe get there, I should ask like,
do you like what you do rightnow? Are you happy to be
in this space, like in thisconsulting role. Is this close to your
kind of your dream of what youwant to be doing? And I'm sorry
to sup, Yeah, of course, of course I think I would say

(19:04):
fifty fifty like half the time,yes, Because what I love about consulting
in this way is that I'm notdragged into a bunch of meetings I don't
need to be in where I'm justlike watching stuff flow by. I'm only
an email yeah, yeah, exactly, I'm only doing the part that becames
to me that I find interesting orpursue or you know, interject were asked

(19:29):
to do. But that uh,and getting to pull together a team of
people who I love to work with. Yeah, like super awesome because every
time I get on Zoom with themand I'm like, what's up? This
is great. But the downside isthat I'm also using a lot of online
collaboration tools look Slack and air tables, so that we're like real time all

(19:52):
working together. Great. However,it's lonely and I feel that and I
miss working in the physical spaces.It's like a huge part of why I
got to where I am it isbecause I love being in those spaces with
people and making stuff. Yeah,and having my messy process being internet woven
with everyone else's messy processes and bumpinginto them in the hallway, and I

(20:15):
feel like that's where a lot ofthose exchanges and inspirations and the good stuff.
Absolutely, so I do. Imiss that a lot, and I
think unfortunately like getting into that worldof like database management, which is a
big part of what this is,it clicks me into a mode where I
could just like disappear for twelve hoursand I would come out the other side

(20:38):
like hungry and dehydrate. And whilethat is a useful ability to focus,
it's not yeah, yeah, youknow, balance totally totally okay. So
let's go back to the beginning.So how did you get into this kind
of work and what first got youinspired to be in design v patient and

(21:00):
these shop spaces. Well not tothrow like my entire family under the bus,
But it wasn't that. It wasn'tthat. Like I was sawd of
my brothers sometimes recently and he hada problem that he did we were talking
about and he was like, canI fix this with my Christmas hammer?
And I was like, Harry gotfor Christmas from you? No, it's

(21:22):
like a you know, Christmas treespainted on the handle. It's not that's
hilarious, not officially a tool,you know, but like do you think
this was like a hammer exactly?It's like a novelty hammer. Yes,
Oh my gosh, that's hilarious.Also, just quick retherand side story.

(21:47):
It reminds me where the direction Iwas thinking you were going with you get
into my hammer for Christmas, andthat's no way that is it's like way
to get us for what he's gonnado with it. Oh my gosh.
Because I recently gifted my younger brotherJapanese pulls off because I read the number
one most versatile useful tool you couldhave in your car in your backyard.

(22:10):
Yeah, yeah, I hate it. So I'm like, I'm gonna get
all my other cousins one one day. It's going to be just a tradition,
I think. And so that's whereI was going. I was like,
I did something, Nope, nope, I would not give to my
brother a tool. Well that's alittle part. So yeah, like and
I knew that, like the respectyeah uh so, yeah, I mean

(22:34):
it's an interesting question. I insome ways I got involved in theater,
and yeah, theater, and myfavorite part was not the acting. It
was all the production, like makingthe set and the props all of that.
Yep, you're know. I wassupposed to be there to do like
acting lessens there you go. Yeah, I've only got involved in the the

(23:00):
set building part, and almost becauseof the roommate, I don't. I
think that's how I ended up there. But then it was really exciting on
new skill set and I got intodoing some building, some purpentry skills.
And then I went to the Collegeof the Reverends and were in California for
their year long time furniture program.And it's only twenty people. It's six

(23:23):
days a week, you're all inone room, and you basically start the
program, not only by trying feudallyto make one piece of wood flat and
square, which is absolutely impossible becauseovernight the temperature and the humidity changes and
everything, and so you come backthe next day and it's definitely not sure.

(23:47):
But then you also build your ownhand tools, and then you end
up making furniture with the tools thatyou build. My favorite things the things
you need to make to make,the things you need to make, so
that Jake's the tools, all ofthat. It's the best. So that's
really cool to you. Guys aregonna be planes? What are the kind
of tools? A lot of handlings? Okay, yeah, marking knives,

(24:07):
and it would also some things toowhere you're mostly making like the case.
Yeah, we would work a littlebit on bols. We have the opportunity
to make our own blades, andbut mostly we sharpened like until our Yeah,
so it just like endless sharpening theJapanese water steps. Are you really
good at always having share of knivesin your house? Does that translate?

(24:32):
I would say before kids? Okay, yeah, a lot of things,
a lot of things on the craftend of my lifestyle to live, but
yeah, and I think so.So that was like an adventure to one
end of the spectrum and like animmersive experience in the world of craft and
thinking about things through a craft lens. And after that year, I really

(24:57):
I came back to San France andI was working for an architect and doing
custom build building stuff and also buildingout a shop and model making and all
different kinds of things. But Irealized that, like, oh, architects
are thinking and working at this largerscale. That was really interesting. And

(25:18):
so that's when my personal pendulum likeswung from this small craft long tradition school
with a sort of guru figure ofJames Trentoff to the other end of the
spectrum to uh doing my ampass andarchitecture at M I T. And the
two couldn't be further YEA like engineeringand I would imagine yes, in architecture,

(25:42):
I'm sure they had that influenced justbecause absolutely and researched and really approaching
things from research mindset. The similaritiesthat they're both very small programs, pretty
intimate, and the MT experience wasextremely intense. I think I feel like
I vived it and I learned alot, and it just blew open my

(26:03):
mind around all of what's possible.And I think after that, I swung
back to somewhere that feels like it'sin the middle of those and so I
really love being these spaces where yougo from design to fabrication and seeing how

(26:23):
you translate from two D to threeD and how you bring something alive.
And I feel like, to me, that's the most exciting space. That's
where like it's it's this hyper speedvolume, like tons of stuff changes and
happens in that because you realize thatyou drew one thing that that doesn't exist
in the world when you go tothe hardcasturce and then you change everything that
you buy these other brackets, andthen suddenly whatever it is you're building is

(26:45):
completely good. And going back andforth traversing that line between physical and digital
also on the design and software socomplicated. It's one thing to sort of
build organically, like we were talkingabout the wood lade, where you're feeling
material, you're listening to the tool, the sounds that it's making in contact

(27:07):
with the material. It's so differentthan designing the three D space like rhino
fusion, any of these other sketchup where you're just like floating in an
infinite outer space. Yeah, andlike if you forgot to assign the appropriate
units at some point, you justchange the units and now you're thing you
can go back their steps and youknow, you know, change some measurement

(27:30):
on one side and have it playout if back to you know, the
current moment and your current design.It's pretty incredible even to see how that
has changed, you know, inthe last five years, and those capabilities
are insane with the capsules. ButI'm curious what you feel is the value
because I think we probably feel it'smore obvious maybe I would imagine in our

(27:52):
experience, But what's the value forthose who maybe not don't recognize this in
being able to even if it's avery minimal understanding, to know how to
build something that you design. Becausethere's a lot of situations, a lot
of big companies right where design andmanufacturing or prototyping is totally side of Like,

(28:12):
yeah, you're designing or engineering somethingthat's thrown over the wall and then
you go back and they might haveto give use some changes later because something
doesn't work and how it's produced,And obviously I think in those roles even
those designers and engineers over time intheir industry experience, learn a lot of
about the processes they have to Butwhat do you think about I guess even

(28:33):
in the early stages of even designeducation or engineering education, having access to
tools, actually building stuff with yourhands. Yeah, yeah, well,
I think on some kind of abasic level, it's very easy to design
things in that infinite space that workout perfectly. It takes a lot of

(28:53):
experience and understanding to design things thatcan be produced on machines that exist in
our right now, because there arelimitations to the thickness of the material with
the knife, the bed size,that whatever else. But there's also a
value in understanding the difference between thoseperfect digital models and just the imperfectness of

(29:18):
our world that you have to accommodatefor in material variations or the kind of
distortions that happen in your mind thewood, environmental Yeah, and then just
just the humanness of it. Ithink that once you start making it,
you interact with the fact that ifyou if you make that fitting too tight,

(29:38):
then you can't press fit it.Now you have to get an arbor
press. Now you have to involvethese other tools. Once you add those
those other processes. You're walking acrossthe shop, you have to get a
cart that brings your material. Youknow, you get into just the real
world implications and complications of what ittakes to actually make something, and that
once you do that feedback loop,you go through the process enough times,

(30:02):
it changes who you are as adesigner and you start thinking about an object
not just for its end use,not just for the materials available, not
just for how you assemble it,but what it feels like when you hold
that handle in your hand. Youknow, it makes the entire project for
right more real. Yeah, definitely, But honestly, I think the value,

(30:25):
the greatest value is a personal level, because I think that we are
just monkeys who really need to seeourselves reflective in the world. And you
make a thing and then like,you made that thing, and there's pride
and there's experience and there's richness ofthat. I think to be alive,

(30:47):
we have to do that. Yes, I think that comes up a lot
in these conversations where there's just somethingso empowering about taking something in your head
or from a sketch or three modeland making it in real life. Absolutely,
and it's something I've talked a lotabout in the context, even one

(31:08):
of our past guests, Emily Pulleton. Yeah, you know, we talked
about that and just how you know, yeah, what a difference you can
make, especially for younger kids,to be able to do that, and
how it can affect other things inyour life. You know, if you
have that, it can kind ofstart to build this confidence as independence and

(31:30):
and yeah, and then being ableto share that with others and teach them
how to do it, and itjust continues that as a cycle. Absolutely.
Emily Pulleton's amazing. Yeah, I'ma huge fan. Yeah, when
I first met her, I wasjust like, oh my gosh, this
is such a cool moment. Youknow. I've been such a huge interview
work forever and yeah, all thatstuff, I just I wish I had

(31:52):
had to that growing up. Wouldhave been game changer. But I'm so
glad it exists now, you know, and for generations to come. Absolutely,
so I'd love to go now intoOkay, so, after m your
worker from architecture firm, Uh no, I oh what's I No? After
MT, I was working for aexhibit design company in Brooklyn. Yeah,

(32:19):
yes, yes, absolutely, it'sit's kind of in that anexus of interaction
and design and testa community building,yes, and also dealing. I would
imagine it with some some interesting kindof clients in a way, if it's
exhibits for artists or for curators orthings museum exhibits really really cool. That

(32:40):
was for company called MOEI Inc.Who are just they're doing really fun.
And then I got the job withaunt a desk when they were just building
out Pere and I for the workshop. So I came in with the space
was under concern ruction still and itwas on a long journey with that for

(33:05):
the next almost a decade I thinkeight years, and as it became a
space and became a place, andwe went through a lot of different sort
of generations of eras of what thatwas. But it was a really exciting
ride and the best of course partof the whole that was the people,

(33:30):
like was all yeah, absolutely whenI we did that. As telling you
the detoured episode there, I remembersomething that stood out to me was,
you know, since it's on apier. I remember our tour guide telling
us about kind of some of thereinforcement and things that it had happened to
be able to prepare to have thesehuge machines and heavy equipment on this tier.

(33:54):
So were you there scaring that phaseof life, figuring out what's going
to work and what you need todo? You know what? I came
in after okay, because they hadfinished with the rehabilitation actually pure pilings.
Yeah, they did some ongoing workover the following years, but yes,
like the floors were done on theground floor, they were still building out

(34:15):
them as we Most of the bigequipment was already in and so it was
everything else. So, speaking ofthe kind of the ways that evolved over
the years, something I'm familiar witha little bit. It's how I know
there was much more of an artistsresidency for a while. Then I remember

(34:35):
there being more almost like residents thatare like Levis or like some of these
companies. Right, could you kindof walk it through, like what was
the original intention from Autodesk perspective ofwhat you guys wanted to accomplish with that
space, and oh yeah, andthen how it kind of evolved as much
as you williant share or sure,no, I mean it's it's like I
gotta go back into the archive.But originally was growing out of the residency

(35:00):
that was at Instructibles because the instructablesa bit acquired by it on a desk
and the pier was the first timethat Instructibles was going to be incorporated,
and so it was an extension ofthe residency that they had had their medious
office, and that was sort ofthe seed. But that grew into like
a giant jungle very quickly and whichwe like had tons of residents coming through.

(35:23):
When you have a space like that, I mean, how could you
not yeah, such it, Yeah, and the benefit of a huge of
the backing of a big, hugecorporation that like allowed us to build out
a staff and had we had alot of the resources that we needed.
And I think, frankly that's aproblem that a lot of these fabrication spaces
have. It's not only the initialcapital expense that's a lot, but you

(35:47):
have to have great people there consistentlyand you've got to operate the space to
facilitate a lot of it. Andoften that's considered that's like an afterthought,
when really that's like the core ofit. You have great people, things
can happen. So it grew intoa residency and the Artistan Residency program that

(36:08):
was that went strong for many years, and as the company changed and as
they did corporate restructurings and we movedfrom division to division. We were supporting
the fusion team as they were buildingup that product and looking at how to
use it on the equipment, andthen we became part of the research division

(36:30):
at some point. But then wealso the shift went moved towards manufacturing and
how could the space support like anexploration into the future that future manufacturer.
So then the residency changed from individualsto companies and then looking at whether they're
connected at to autodesks like main customerbases and architecture, engineering and manufacture.

(37:00):
So it did. It changed alot. Yeah, and the way that
projects were facilitated in that space andhow people use it also changed. And
your role changed a lot throughout that. Oh yeah, okay, so and
during that time your role changed thetime, so we talked a little bit
before we started this conversation, youknow, about kind of the evolution from

(37:22):
which I can relate to a lotbeing on the shop floor and kind of
managing shop practices and all of thatto growing into a little bit more of
a like strategic partnerships and business developmentside of things. So I'd be curious
to know, you know, doyou feel like you kind of fell into
that naturally? Did you have amentor through that process? Like, how

(37:43):
did that kind of career evolution hadfor you. Well, let's let me
throw in a couple of curveballs here. Sure. I think it was partly
an evolution of where things were heading, how the company was changing, how
they were changing their vision of leveragingthese fabrication spaces, because then it got
connected to other space that all ofthis cat around the country. Did they
have space is life? So theybuilt out of space in Boston called the

(38:07):
Boston Technology Center, and then theyhad a space in Toronto that they were
building up, and then they hadanother space that came on line through an
acquisition, and and then they hada space that in Australia that also came
through an acquisition. That so theywere wanting to leverage find as an hot

(38:28):
work of spaces and think about itas an I love them together. Yeah,
yeah, So how did I roll? Well? Oh yeah, right,
I'm just gonna say, I mean, yes, I got pregnant and
had a kid. And I bringthat up because not only did it entirely

(38:49):
change my life, of course,but it changes what happens in the work
space. And I think that's justwe just have to be real about it.
Because I had a lead probably sixmonths, and when I came back,
things were different, and there area lot of conversations that I just
wasn't a part of, and sothere were chunks of that evolution that I

(39:09):
was wasn't necessarily a part of.But then I was just there was part
of the overall you know, corporateand organisms, and we just moved forward
and things changed. But it alsothere were some big leadership changes that autohaskin,
you know, reorganizations and all thatkind of stuff. So I can't
give you a direct line because Ithink it's actually kind of confusing and MESSI

(39:34):
yeah, but a lot of changesbasically, Yeah, no, that makes
sense, And I mean it soundslike what we're you know, what we're
discussing at the beginning. As faras the pros and consolate this consulting role,
you miss some of the like inperson interaction in these shop spaces,
and missed that kind of energy aroundbuilding in community with these other people,

(40:00):
other companies, other institutions. Whynotdo you feel like, is that something
you want to get back to oneday as far as being in a shop
space being more hands on or areyou more just you know, what's next?
Where can I take this consulting hallfurther? Yeah, it's a it's
a great question because it's a questionthat I'm also in for myself, is

(40:23):
what next? I think that Idon't want to be far from the process
of making things because that's been sucha positive feedback loop in space of growth,
and is also now like where somuch of my technical expertises around what's
possible, what machines and equipment facilitatethat. But I also think that I've

(40:47):
had some some research projects along theway that have been super rewarded, and
so getting into those thought exercises allowsme to get into the space of bigger
thinking systems, thinking problems solving ata level that's beyond like this piece of

(41:07):
hardware and how do I you know, how do I troubleshoot what I'm building
right now? Is it that theblade isn't true? Is the table not
level? Like, you know,chasing chasing those issues now and doing that
at a bigger level, which isquite interesting, especially I've been now involved
in questions around the future of manufacturingfor the last five years, and though

(41:30):
my background is in architecture, myinterest is in how things get made,
and so I think there's this hugecollision happening inside of manufacturing where there's this
conversation about the future manufacturing halls,technology and AI and you know, automated
systems, and then there's the realityof how manufacturing is functioning in our country,

(41:52):
which is completely These are two conversationsthat are not having conjoint and I
can see that there's some kind ofreckoning on the horizon that's going to be
very interesting, and doing research anddoing projects around that has been super rewarding.
So yeah, what's next. I'mnot afraid to get further from operating

(42:16):
machines, but what I do wantto do is work with really engaged,
smart kind people who want to havea positive impact and like exactly what we're
doing. I'd be happy doing alot of different things to totally. So
I'm trying to bring up kind ofthe future manufacturing stuff because I think what

(42:39):
you said about what's actually happening,and then this vision for the future that
a lot of the I guess kindof major players right, that are trying
to support that vision, are havingas far as the tools for automation and
what's possible. I think there's thishuge like threshold people don't talk about about
adoption, the cost of adoption,not only the cost of adopting the technology,

(43:01):
but transitioning like a factory or thetraining for the staff to be able
to handle those new changes. Andthen also of course the huge kind of
deficit and talent and not I don'tknow necessarily talent, but the people who

(43:21):
are going to take on those jobsand during the transitions. Like sure,
we can fantasize maybe about you don'tneed the people eventually or something like that,
but that's not going to happen overnight. Yeah, you always need the
Yeah, and the people are stillof course gonna have to support the tools,
even not on as tools and whatnot. We all know that. So
I think, like you said,is a huge conversation that is not happening

(43:44):
enough with all the stakeholders. Kindof necessary right, happening in these kind
of strange silos. But it'll beinteresting to see and to see these companies,
you know, in construction, inin electrical and plumbing whatnot, have
these huge programs around bringing people peopleon, they'll train them, the competitive

(44:07):
salaries because there is just you know, this generation is kind of retiring out
and there's not enough people to pickup the kind of mantle there. And
with seeing the operation jobs and allthese different things, yep, yep,
some big issues around and the agingworkforce that's in place, big big hurdles
around workforce either retraining or workforce trainingfor the new tools. And then,

(44:31):
like you're talking about adoption, it'snot just can you afford it, buy
the machine that's going to help youautomate, but do you have Wi Fi?
Do you have Internet? Do youhave ID security? All of it
right? Right? And and you'venow you're hiring for positions that you've never

(44:52):
hired before. If you're bringing inthis new piece of cord and there's all
these other questions, how do youget support on that machine? Especially if
the support is now in be offeringthrough live video chats within augmented reality overlay
that's going to guide you through thefix. You know, is that something
that you're you're person who's already understandis comfortable doing. You know, like

(45:14):
there's there're just these big gaps thatare are are happening between the technology that's
getting developed and what's existing, andhow to how to help those converge.
I think it's super interesting. Ithink there are folks who are out there
chewing on these problems and see thiscoming. And I think, strangely,

(45:35):
my course of experience has led meright into this tart pity you wanted to
be there, you know, likeeven though my background is architecture and woodworking,
you know, somehow I've migrated aroundthe block over to like digital design
tools and fabrication tools, and thenlooking at these innovation spaces where they are

(45:58):
being built to support innovators and entrepreneurswho are developing new technologies. Those new
technologies are great to apply to likea tabul rossa situation where you're going to
build out your brand new factory inthe future. But the truth is these
factors are already there in most cases. And then a lot of these entrepreneurs
also want to leverage sort of thisnew manufacturing thing, you know, opportunities

(46:21):
like exometry where they might be ableto produce their product in a new way.
Yeah, it's interesting and it's complicated, and their five past potential.
Yeah, right with that. Sorry, There's just that my experience is mostly
rooted in these like innovation spaces thatare hybrid between UH manufacturing space and a

(46:44):
prototyping lab, because a lot oftimes what the equipment that I'm specking or
supporting my team is really at thatlike pre manufacturing level where you have scene
see it like that you could runhundreds of parts through, but we're probably
just running into five. Yes,yeah, similarly for design that but it
also enables us to advise and havethose conversations and introduce folks who may have

(47:06):
never had the experience of seeing thesetools on a backery floor in a maybe
AC facility, get hands on,you know, access training, introduction to
the tool in person, which ishuge. In regards to the research you
mentioned that you've done, was thatjust like personally driven that you took the
projects on or you were doing itagain injunction clients and stuff. Okay,

(47:29):
yep, yep, And I aminterested in doing more, oh, because
I mean, I'm sure you're experiencingwith doing the podcast. It's want to
call people who interview totally, definitely, definitely, so I'm gonna do a
total one eighty. But related still, I'd love to hear more about your

(47:50):
woodworking practice and how this kind ofthread if you've managed to, you know,
keep it up throughout your all theseyour changes we've been talking about our
career experiences, how it's informed someof that. You talked a little bit
about how it's informed your appreciation forFaber patient and tools and understanding of making

(48:12):
throughout again kind of even beyond that, would you say it influenced that or
how has it been a part ofyour life? Kind of why? Sure?
That's a lot about Yeah. Ithink that what working practice might be
an overstatement. It is because Ithink when when you say practice, I
think it something is like consistent andyou know, like an artistic practice,

(48:35):
something you just keep going until youfind ways forward. And I would say
I have not been that consistent,but I have always done projects. It's
part of what keeps me alive.My most recent project was building a treehouse.
And I love doing some rough carpentry, you know where you're margin for

(48:57):
errors like half inch no problem.So that's been a lot of fun.
But I'd say I always have somethingthat I've got my hands on, and
that is like almost an instinctual drive. Over the years, I've kept my
hands on different things by you know, building Halloween costumes with electronic actuators for

(49:19):
the lights, you know. OrI bought out a VESPA about ten years
ago, nineteen seventy Vespa in partbecause I couldn't ever really figure out how
engines worked, and so I gota vespla with the world's simplest to stroke
figure it out, and then proceededto ask for help from everyone around me

(49:40):
until I figured out how to getit running time and time again. So
it's just, you know, partof what keeps me like I would I
dream of having the space and equipmentat home to be able to go down
don't and you know, like turnablein those factions and in the evenings.

(50:01):
But but the truth is, likethe last five years, my practice has
been raising the fan, and that'sthat's real. How do you feel like
you've been able to I'm imagining,like even through what you're saying is so
these examples costumes and these different projects, do you feel like you're already seeing

(50:23):
a similar drive and your children asfar as making in the satisfaction it comes
with that and it kind of createthings into reality or even learning you know,
these new skills and kind of periosityaround it. Sure, sure,
I mean they're two and four,so they just want to do stuff all
the time, and h yeah,it's amazing. It's amazing what they are

(50:47):
pre programmed, how interested and howmuch they want to just like explore and
put their hands over everything. Yeah. And I mean I mean, like
up to two they're doing that byputting everything in their mouth, it's just
not as fun and exciting special.But now that they're doing things with their

(51:07):
hands and the leading things for magnetisYeah, it's fantastic. Does it ever
make you want to design toys?Yeah? Yes, I always thinking about

(51:27):
that, Like with designers and kids. I've asked them about other guests to
you know, talk about their kids, and just I feel like I didn't
know why it would be interesting tosee if or when I have kids one
day, like if I would besuper into that. But I imagine it'd
be hard to resist like making thingsfor them all the time. But obviously
if you have the time and youknow the space to do it and stuff.

(51:50):
But I feel like it'd be sucha fun design challenge with like making
a better you know, toy orsomething with like real materials because some stuff
is like plastic and when oh thatmaterial, but I don't know. It's
like thinking about that with friends,kids or cousins or work on so it's
like I feel like the designer andyou can't help it. But maybe no,

(52:12):
but I I think I yes,I totally, I'm with you there,
and yes, I often think aboutthe things that yes, yeah,
But but the part that's the mostfun is like watching what they do with
a roll of blue tape. Yes, this is a hardward box. Yeah
yeah, and without fail. Assoon as I start to impose some idea

(52:36):
of what I think the toy shouldbe or what, oh, let's build
a boat out of the legos,you know, it's like instantly so boring
because whatever it is that they werestarting to do or they're going to eventually
do, is you know, Iactually need to get out of the way
totally. I can't remember if Ialready pulled a story on the podcast,
but I'm not repeating myself. Maybewe'll cut it off pressure. But when

(52:57):
I used to work at I mentionedyou know ZUM now the Children's Creativity Museum.
One of my favorite activities that wedid was is called the Mistry Box
Challenge and it was just a boxof like donated supplies most of the time,
pipe cleaners, toilet paper rolls,whatever, paper and markers, whatnot.
And then we made this deck ofcards that were you know, like

(53:20):
you're the size of a fly andyou need to get out of a moving
blender, you know, what doyou do? And then the kid and
all different ages from I would saylike three to eight or ten maybe would
get this box, get the card. You kind of leave them alone,
sometimes together with other kids, andthen you'd go back and check in on
them. And this was something youknow, we're trained at staff to like

(53:42):
the most important part is like gooff at the end, what did they
make? Because you could watch themand be like it's a pile plustry paper,
you know, but then you hearthem explain it. Yeah, and
it was so incredible, you know, to just hear like a five year
old have this really elaborate solution.You never would have realized just from looking
at it. Right, Oh mygosh, you're a genius, you know,

(54:04):
how did you come up with that? And I love the way you
created it And so much is beingfilled in in their minds, you know,
which is so magical and something Ithink we're all kind of trying to
get back to all the time.But I think speaks to kind of what
you're saying about just sometimes you justhave to get out of it, right
exactly. Yeah, It's almost likeproviding the off cuts from a project would

(54:24):
be more interesting than actually making thething that little right, Yeah, exactly.
They're going to be way more creativeand imaginative with it, absolutely and
empowered. Okay, So I wantto be conscientious of our time. I'm
going to ask you two last kindof rapid fire questions to wrap it up
here. So, and we mighthave already maybe touched on this in the

(54:46):
last couple minutes of the conversation,but what's something outside of technology that's inspired
me these days? What is inspiringme outside of technology right now? This
may be in per response coming outof the pandemic, but I would say
like the closest people around me,And that might be because our circles get

(55:08):
some smaller that there's longer than Inoticed. But seeing things that my siblings
are doing, and how my friendsare responding to each other, and how
they're taking care of each other asa family, that is probably the thing
that feels the most inspiring to mein the sense of it's inspiring me to
take action, to appreciate folks,and to to notes. So the last

(55:32):
question we asked all of our guestsis what is on your personal build of
materials? On my personal bill ofmaterials right now, definitely like a lot
of paper towels at any time,just because there's everywhere I go there you

(55:57):
go, all right, well,yeah, something is being spilled. Like
the question in our house is whyis this wet? Why is this sticky?
Yeah? Just why is this wet? You know, because it's you
don't know why. So I meanthat's that's like the biggest volume order of
my ability materials right now. ButI would also say a lot of water

(56:22):
and staying hydrated. Yeah, andthen maybe like a lot of water,
water to swim in, water tobe in, water to soak in,
because that's a big part of whatwhat makes me feel like and bring Definitely

(56:46):
I love a lake and it's summerand so water's on the mine. Yea.
So thank you so much for thetime. Jay. We covered so
much drownd. I do still thinkmaybe we'll have to have a part two
anting one of those tides we coulddive so much further into, but yes,
thank you so much. It's forfiling person and the excited tout the

(57:07):
conversation, Thanks for the tab.That was my conversation with Jay Sassman,
the talented architect that is orchestrating Ford'semobility facilities in Detroit today. We talked
about the things you need to maketo make, the things you need to
make, from tools to experience,and the importance of sharing knowledge. We

(57:30):
also spoke of the challenges and corporatereorts, Jay's passion for working with talented,
curious people, and appreciation for thevalue of the creative process. See
you next week. If you likeThe Bomb, don't forget to subscribe,

(57:50):
rate and share the show. Whereveryou get your podcasts. You can follow
supply Frame and Hackaday on Instagram,Twitter, LinkedIn YouTube, and design Lab
at supply Frame Design Lab on Instagramand Twitter. The Bomb is a supply
Frame podcast produced by Me Magenta,Strongheart and Ryan Tillotson, written by Maggie
Bowls and edited by Daniel Ferrara.Theme music is by Anna Hagban. Show
art by Thomas Schneider. Special thanksto Giovanni Selina's, Bruce Domingue's Thomas Woodward,

(58:15):
Jin Kumar, Jordan Clark, theentire Supply Frame team, and you
are wonderful listeners. I'm your host, Magenta Strongheart. See you next week.
Advertise With Us

Popular Podcasts

Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2

Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2

Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.

Dateline NBC

Dateline NBC

Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2025 iHeartMedia, Inc.