April 16, 2024 • 35 mins
Today, on The Bom: Engineering A Path Forward we sit down with Fracktal Works Co-founder Vijay Raghav Varada. Vijay walks us through the need for 3D-printed parts in advanced manufacturing and where traditional CNC parts fail, why he decided to keep Fracktal Work projects open source, and the exciting possibilities of what advanced 3D-printing might hold for the future of tactical hardware.
The views and opinions expressed within this content are solely the speaker's and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of Supplyframe or its affiliates.
The views and opinions expressed within this content are solely the speaker's and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of Supplyframe or its affiliates.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The relationship you have with your develop printing is different
when their employees, and different when they're collaborating on an
open source project. Right, you're not really doing it for
the money, so it is for your interest, it's for
the vision, it's for the purpose. The motivators for people
who are in open source hardware is completely different from
somebody who's doing it as a job.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Today. On the Bomb Engineering a Path Forward, we examine
one of the big questions that engineers face. Is it
better to leave your work open source and let other
makers explore endless possibilities, or should you follow the classic
startup path and protect your work, limiting innovation but reaching
a broader audience. Generally speaking, open source is used in
the context of software development. The VLC player, Firefox, the
(00:44):
Linux are all great examples of popular open source software.
But over the last decade, open source hardware has gained
serious traction in the digital manufacturing and precision machining world.
Three D printing is one of the industries that he's
really written this wave. My guest today, VJ. Virata co
founded Fractal Works twenty thirteen after his robotics research required
him to print hyper specific robotic parts quickly, but most importantly,
(01:06):
at low cost. With no one making the kind of
printer he needed, he decided to build one himself. Today,
VJ walks us through the need for three D printed
parts in advanced manufacturing and where traditional C and C
parts fail, why he decided to keep fractic works projects
open source, and the exciting possibilities of what advanced three
D printing might hold for the future of tactical hardware.
This is my conversation with VJ. Verata, and this is
(01:27):
the Bomb. We live in a time where design and
technology touch every aspect of our lives. But where did
it all come from? Who designed it? How is it
built and brought to market? What will look like in
a year, two years, one hundred years. From the phones
(01:47):
and smartwatches that help us in our day to day
to the cutting edge spaceships and three D printers that
are leading us into the future. Modern design is constantly
shaping the way we work, communicate, problem solve, and play,
and every new design, bigger, small, starts with an idea
and a bill of materials. I'm agenta strongheart and this
is the Bomb. Where we talked to leading innovators in
the tech world and celebrate the transformational power of design.
(02:16):
I'd love to learn more about the service you're providing
in three D printed manufacturing fractal work.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So started eleven years ago when I was still in college,
where I just fell in love with three D printing.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It just got obsessed with it.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I think twenty eleven twenty twelve, the deplap movement was
just picking up steam, and I got myself a mental kit,
built it and realized, you know, this is going to
take a lot more effort to you know, get running smoothly.
So I was just obsessed with the fact that I
could design upgrades printed on the printer itself, and it
just the printer became better, right and before my eyes,
(02:52):
and the college had a business incubator, and somebody approached
us saying that why don't you, you know, get into
entrepreneurship and tie your hand at this because you have
a product people seem to want. And I'm like, okay,
I mean, like, I really did not have any interest
about business at that point in time. I wanted to
become a robotics researchers as a megatronics engineer at that
(03:13):
point in time, So I'm like, okay, and this is
going to be an interesting experience.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I don't have to put any of my money.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
The college's sort of university is giving everything, and let's
tie this out. So that's how sort of the humble
beginnings of fractal started, you know, just something for the
fun of it, for the heck of it, and my
perspective of you know, worst case scenario just doesn't work.
It's going to look good on my resume and I
could get into a good university and I really wanted
(03:41):
to wanted to join MIT at Boston back at that time.
So I like, okay, and entrepreneurship will look good in
my own resumes.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Let's have a go at this.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
But you know, those initial years, especially in India, you know,
three D printing was sort of indistiguient show from magic
for a lot of people, and just from you know,
a couple of college undergrads who again hadn't even graduated yet.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
We were able to get a lot.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Of traction initially just from the fact that we were
in three D printing. And during twenty sixteen, fifteen sixteen times,
the entire sort of bubble around three D printing was massive,
and so that just carried us, even though you know,
we were still more of tech people rather than entrepreneur
the salespeople or I had zero understanding of finance and
(04:33):
marketing and sales at that point in time. So it's
just sort of the momentum that carried us forward. But
I still had like a genuine love about three printing,
and over time I realized that this more than just prototyping,
has so much more it can do for manufacturing. Where
you manufacturing, you end use products with three D printing,
And I'd say over time that became the mission of
(04:56):
Fractal Works, where we were working on three D printing
with the intension with the goal of using it for production,
and what changes do we need to make both in
the from the production standpoint, from the design standpoint, from
the printer standpoint, from the material stand for the intestack
required for using three D printing for manufacturing. So all
(05:17):
of that is what we engage ourselves on. So we
not only on capable three D printers that will laugh right,
we want machines that can behave XC and C machines
where you where a company invest in them and they
can bank on that that they will get service and
support for ten to fifteen years of this machine and
(05:38):
making sure that prints reliably for days and weeks on
and making sure that they can print with performance matives
beyond absnp A, looking at nylon carbon fiber, composite, nylon
polycarbonate ultempeak. Then going into applications where we are more
figuring out the sticky part in between the product and
(05:58):
the customer.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Where we are we on.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I'd say the one of the biggest problems about three
D printing industry globally is that not too many manufacturers
are actually sitting down with customers and figuring out solutions themselves,
where I think one of the biggest differences.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
We we go overboard.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
It comes down to figuring out new applications of three
D printing. When it comes down to working with customers.
If somebody comes up with an idea, can we use
three D printing for this particular use case? And we
we do. We aren't sure about whether three D printing
can be used for that particular use case. And that's
what really gets us excited about. Hey, if we figured
this out, could this open up another huge market for us?
(06:38):
The three D printing can be used for this particular industry,
for say, investment casting or sand casting or and again
all of all of that under the umbrella of manufacturing
where we want it's not it's not that we want
to print toys and gifts and you know this thing,
but what are what are the value that we can
add in the manufacturing sector and leverage the advantages of
(07:00):
the process itself where you have complete design freedom, where
you have a lot of choices in terms of materials
that you can work with, composites that you can work with,
and how do you add value on onto the shop
floor or how do you add value to a particular
industry with that. So it's a very in terms of
again uniqueness about our approach More than the machine, I
think it's in the in the way our business operates
(07:23):
from business model and go to market strategy point of view,
where you know, I acknowledge that tomorrow probably in terms
of the hardware, other companies might overtake us, where instead
of us developing that we can we can use that
and then make sure that we package in a way
in which we are actually solving customer problems. And there's
a lot of process understanding that we that we sort
(07:47):
of figure out.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
I think that's that is both both.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
The complexity that is possible with three D printing is
also in a way what is limiting.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
It's it's adoper option right.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And we also on the other end, have an understanding
that where the market is going, what kind of materials
would be required, what can performance materials would be required
for multiple kind of applications. We are we are getting
more requests safe for example from the ev industry, So
you need ULV zero fire it on in certif certified
materials so that you know they self extinguished, so you
(08:20):
fire it on it materials are required for certain applications,
making sure that you know the supply chain for that
materials is available. Our process parameters are set for that
the machine can process those materials. So I would say
it's not a pure play say standard cookie cut up
three D printer that we have, but we have architecture
where we can interchange the nozzle, we can change the
(08:42):
bed specifically for printing specific materials that add value to
the customer. And you know that unique go to market
strategy where we are problem solving along with the customer
to make sure that three D printing is actually used
in production.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, it sounds like you've built out this whole support
network and system that comes with the use of the
three D printer, which makes sense. Like like you said,
there's a lot of challenges and adoption, especially in traditional
manufacturing kind of settings, where there's a disconnect in the
capability of three D printing and the advantages and the possibilities,
(09:21):
but maybe the knowledge or experience you know, isn't quite
there yet to connect the dots. So I think that
makes a lot of sense that you're able to provide
that and walk them through and support them through that
process with any missing parts the customer may not have,
like the designer or like the material knowledge, et cetera.
Did you tell us one or two as specific as
you can get. I'm sure some things are you know,
(09:43):
protected whatever you're willing to share, but maybe some unexpected applications.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
One of the advantages I think talking to the hackertay
community is that everybody is our nerds and geeks, so
you will get really get into I can really get
into specific So I think one of the things that
that was from a couple of weeks back, we were
working for an automotive manufacturing company, like a second tire
automotive company that gets contracted work.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
By the top oms.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So they make these plastic parts automotive grill, dashboard, all
the plastic polymer parts inside a car, and they are
trying to automate as many work cells as possible. So say,
for example, two as simple as two plast two polymer
parts have to be joined together with fasteners and screws.
So there's a there's a robotic arm from Universal Robotics.
(10:35):
It has to pick in place uh, screw drivers of
multiple specifications uh and screw down.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Fasteners as specific places. Right.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
So in this case, the polymer part has to be
held in a particular place, at a particular angle, particular orientation.
So those fixtures they're called so it has the negative
shape of the the polymer part that has to be
held and sort of centers it and make sure it
is in I would say would have been a very
(11:08):
straightford application of three D printing when we say about aha,
this is sort of the low hanging fruit. But there
was another issue that he said, you know, this is
a problem that we are facing and you solve this,
where the gripper had sort of like a male and
female part that would constantly engage and disengage, which we
made with aluminium and over time over three four months
because of the wear and tear, there's a lot of
(11:31):
play in that in that part, and the screw driver
was not aligning properly right. If it would bang against
one screw it would it would miss align the on
the subsequent fastno that it had place. So what we
did was first we sort of took again there were
three four sort of the male attachments to them. We
figured out there's actually a variance in the tolerance itself,
(11:52):
so it's devailing from from you know, thirty five point
two to thirty five point five because of the variant
tear that has happened across something that accommodates for a
very tolerance, right, we can't really have something rigid that
is a machine that can do that. So that is
when you know, one of my engineers had an idea
of putting a compliant mechanism that actually sort of designed
(12:15):
in spring almost that pushes against the male part, that
sort of fits into the female part and is comparable
for a range of tolerances and not just one, not
only that overtime, even if it undergoes where that compliant
part will you know, compensate for the wear and tear.
(12:36):
So that was on the design part. Then we also
show material carbon fiber nylon. Again, nylon in itself is
very uh rugged as a material. Uh, the carbon fiber
composite of nylon is extremely what the word I'm looking
for durability? I would say durability, but that's still not
(12:57):
the word I'm looking for. Anyway, there's this particular term
that is used in polymers when you have like a
spider graph of flexibility strength all this one never mind, Well,
you can make it.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
A challenge in the comments if you think you know
this word, get back to us.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
I think it starts are it's.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Driving maker that I can't think of it either.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
So again in terms of what it means is that
it can take a lot of beating without really getting
scratched or this thing or deforming or whatever. And especially
for a short flow scenario. You know, there's a lot
of times where the coding for the robotic army not
right and it sort of bangs against something. So that
is also another advantage because of the compliant mechanism. So
(13:40):
then you have like a tolerance for error as well.
So we were paving for one problem of this thing
not engaging with the other repeatedly, but were able to
sort of solve a lot more problems that you know,
they didn't even identify as problems.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Then, you know that I remember that day when.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
We while to figure this out, because for us, we
wanted this challenge of you know, can we replace this
machine part with the carbon fiber composite three D printed
carbon fiber composite. And we took a few trials. The
last last day when we actually installed it into the printer,
almost all all the shop floor attendees sort of came
(14:17):
and gathered around and was seeing the compliant mechanism on that,
and they were sort of blown away how something like
this as possible.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And uh, that an awesome moment for you guys.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Oh, I mean it surprised us as well, right, And
these are the things that, you know, make me feel
that three D printing does really have undiscovered potential. Uh,
and we are at the forefront of that. And I'm
not sure if I can name the company, but it's
it's one of the largest manufacturers of automobile parts in
(14:49):
the world. And to surprise a huge manufacturer like that
with a manufactured part, right, that's something that is really,
I mean gratifying at the same time makes us feel
like we're.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
On that I check, We're going to take a quick break,
but when we come back, VJ gives us his perspective
on the current trajectory of manufacturing and how the industry
can better navigate the labor shortages in factories and machining
shops around the world. Welcome back to the Bomb Engineering
(15:25):
A Path Forward. I'm your host, Magenta Strongheart. When we
left off, VJ was talking about some of the discoveries
him and his team made as they stepped into the
world of three D printing and the problems that they
needed to solve to design and create highly specialized parts
at scale. I would be curious to learn what you
have kind of seen the trend over your career since
(15:49):
you were in undergrad in what students seem to be
focusing on, what universities are focusing on versus what the
industry really needs. I think there's a lot of people,
you know, discussing kind of labor shortages that are going
to be coming up with in manufacturing. With some of
I think what comes out a lot is around see
(16:10):
and seeing and operators, you know, retiring and things like that,
and a lot of the traditional kind of trade skills
and that sort of thing. But then I think also
there's a discussion around maybe you know, the surplus in
like computer engineers we have or computer science majors. And
then also everything happening with AI advancement and development, what's
(16:32):
that going to mean with all the people that are
focused on, you know, learning how to code and this
sort of thing. So, I know that's a lot that's
not really a clear question. What would you say to
young people that are, you know, wanting to approach an
engineering career and be make sure they're you know, useful
in the future and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
I was just having the same conversation with another friend
of mine who I met after about ten fifteen years.
So we used to build robots together back in college,
or even an electronics engine and one of the things
in India, especially the opportunities for hardware people are much
lesser and most you know, whether you did mechanical engineering
or electronics or software, everybody is going to end up
(17:11):
in software. So we were just talking about this thing
about the robots that we used to build, and he
told me that, yeah, I mean since college, he's not
touch touched anything hardware, and it's sort of scared of it.
And so we got into discussion about just the state
of things, right. I think what something that he said
was very profound that you know, it is cyclical, it's
(17:34):
a supply and demand issue. You have a lot more
software engineers. You know, AI is taking care of a
lot of things. Suddenly those those tradesmen jobs are going
to become a lot more lucrative. I think for a
while the VC industry looked at three D printing to
be the answer to be for that where you can
fit that gap, you know, where you have the perfect
(17:59):
overlayer of software and hardware, where you know you can
have computational design and native designs, and then you know
you have complete uh geometric freedom to make water parts
that you want and you don't have to machine it.
You don't have to create a g code by yourself.
But I think that that that is great on the
company pitch tecks and stuff, but I don't think that
(18:20):
is the actual, uh you know, uh story on the
on the field. So definitely three D printing helps place
as a manufacturing technology, but it's not really the answer
to solving a lot of the basics that is wrong
or what needs to be done to bolster manufacturing around.
I'm not sure about the about the US, but India itself. Again,
(18:43):
we're also acknowledging this issue. There's a lot more funding
that's going into what we call industrial training colleges I
t I colleges, which specifically is our our institutions for
training tradesmen, scency operators, lithop operators, and uh And they
are also including three D printing in their curriculums, so
(19:06):
that this also has been added. So it is definitely
sort of a supply and demand issue. I think it
is seclic. I remember when I first got into engineering,
and and you know, I got into discussion with some
people saying that, you know, why do you take megatronics
Mechanical engineering is where it's at where at that time
there was a boom in in automobile production or automobile
(19:29):
of the largest one of the largest industries at that
point in time.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
You know, it goes up, it goes up and down.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
So I think AI especially is going to take out
going to put I wouldn't say put a lot of
software engine out of the job, but big software teams
a lot more efficient and they will not require as
many number of people to build high quality software as
they needed to write. I mean, I started using gethub
(19:57):
copilot in our You know this, it's a complete game changer.
And if you told me there's something like this existed
a couple of years back, I would be like, it
would completely be absolute magic. So I definitely know feel
that these are the kind of trends that will start happening.
And hardware jobs, tradesmen job things that you are to
(20:18):
do with your hand which robots cannot do one less
sort of Boston Accent and Tesla come up with great
robots that then we're in trouble over there. But I
don't think we have a threat with physical robots for
a time.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
For for some time now.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I think we are we have always been since the
beginning of time good with our hands as human beings.
You know, we are creative people and we and we
are amazing at crafting things with our hands. I think
software will get commoditized and it'll come we'll get equal
standing with tradesmen and manufacturing and machining.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I think those are all really good points, and you
covered a lot of ground in that answer, so thank you.
You did address almost all the different aspects I brought
up that I just threw it you kind of in
a blob. But yeah, I think the supplying demand point
is really important and it's great to hear kind of
how India is addressing, like shifting some of the funding
(21:18):
for programs that are going to address this and going
to help solve that you know, potential gap or the
gap that it does exist and is growing. But then also, yeah,
I think that's a good point about kind of how
AI is really making a difference in software right now.
It's still going to take a little while for to
have I think the same impact on the hardware and
(21:39):
machining side and robotics side, But like you said again,
I think it's going to make things more efficient and
teams more lean potentially, but it's not going to be
like humans aren't going to be useful still, and engineering
expertise are still going to be very necessary to help
shape you know, those tools and how they're effective in the.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Processes we need them for.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Absolutely, So I'm really excited that this interview has covered
a lot outside of the Hackaday Prize and your incredible
electro mechanical refreshable Braille module, because I was worried you
would be too similar to the interview we did at
super Con, which I actually need to I just realized,
I don't know if we've published that yet, but if
we haven't, we have to put it out there, because
then I'll just direct people to go there if they
(22:22):
want to learn more about that project, since you gave
such a great history and background to it, and it's
been great to learn more about your company. And I
think that the manufacturing, you know, the additive manufacturing being
integrated into traditional manufacturing is really interesting as well, you know,
of course for our listeners. So I would love to
(22:42):
just check in briefly about the the prize project, but
I think that we'll just point people to that interview,
and obviously the project age and everything will include in
our notes for people to check out more if they
want to learn more about that. Where are you now
that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So one, it definitely feels like there's a lot of
weight on my shoulders to take it to the next level,
you know, exactly. But at the same time, you know,
a lot of people just outrait just got in touch
with me saying that, hey, is it ready?
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I want to build like this tablet.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
There's some people from the government that contacted me saying
that you know, uh, they're from the particular person's disabilities
the division, and they want, you know, the same time,
nobody wants to devil. They want occupy it. If this
is ready, we will buy it.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
They want to finish products. You're like, no, no, all
the instructions are online for you to build it yourself.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
I keep, I keep, you know, I've got to got again.
Similar requests. A lot of college students doing their finally
projects and their and their thesis projects, saying that can
we can we do this? Can you have these modules ready?
Can you sell them?
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Sell these?
Speaker 1 (23:53):
One interesting story, right, So, in addition manufacturing three D prints,
we have like a thre D printing farm that makes
parts as well. Right, So, the head of that division
comes to me saying that somebody wants these refreshful braille
display modules made and he wants a hundred of them.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
And I'm like, wait, bro.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Then I got in touch with the customer and customer
didn't even realize I was the guy who sort of
designed it, and so he basically placed in order for it.
Because obviously everybody in the company knows that I've worked
on this project. So he sort of flagged it to
me saying that, hey, this guy is printing your project.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Is it fine?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
And so I got in touch with him saying that, hey,
it is still very difficult for you to do. You
need to get this component you need to get you know,
these faight coores, you need to get these magnets, all
of that, and you know finding the coil is not easy.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
This is what you need to do. So I actually
went out and met this met this guy. He's in
a different city.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I happened to be there and sort of in a
way recruited him to help me build the project further
because he was so and he was up for the challenge.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Even when you told him all the little aspects that
are going to be difficult, he will still do it.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Obviously, again from from the Hacketay point of view, from
the documentation point of view, everything looks very easy to do,
or yeah, you put it all together and just works.
But yeah, I know I almost killed myself, you know
that one month putting together widening the coils. The ferret
coils are also pretty weak, so if you just if
you don't remove it out of the chuck properly, it's
going to break and crack. So it's quite frustrating to
(25:32):
get you know, the kind of conversations that I've had
with him, and he's like, Hi, I can get a
couple of my friends. We'll come to Bangalore. They sit,
and then we'll sit and wind coils. And then if
three of us, if we do it together, we can
make it much faster.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
So there's a lot of interesting conversations that I've had
with people around this, and for me, the next step,
I think I've demonstrated that it works. The biggest challenge
is manufacturing it, building building tools. If I can get
and build tools to sort of make the scalably producible, I.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Think that is the the the.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Problem to solve, not the official Braill display in itself.
I think the module that the thumb design tweak's tolerances
here there can be done. Figure what material to be
done is all sort of in the books and needs
to be done, But those are not as big as
the challenge as you know, figuring out the automation of
(26:31):
the manufacturer getting this thing done, because that's really what
is going to separate. Get the cost really low, the
Bilow model. Costs definitely hardly costs anything but the amount
of time. And I've been an entrepreneur, I hire people
to work. Right Again, the kind of just the relationship
(26:53):
you have with your developmenting is different when their employees,
and different when they're collaborating on an open source project. Right,
you go that extra a lot more. You know, you're
not really doing it for the money. It's for your interest,
it's for the vision, it's for the purpose. The motivators
for people who are in open source hardware is completely
(27:13):
different from somebody who's doing it as a job. Like
even the person who would reach start me saying that
you know, I want hundred of these units made. He
is a developer, works for a company, and just like me,
he wants to do something on the side worthwhile with
his time and his expertise whatever he has. So it's
(27:33):
different things that it's also the motivating factor that brings
people together in an open source community. That also makes
that magic which I don't think happens with the company,
that doesn't happen with a business. And that's also one
of the reasons why I want to keep this in
this as a community project rather than looking at it
(27:54):
as a as a business, I might even let you
know this product through the work of the community.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Works out.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I might set up another organization just to manufacture it
and distribute it, right, not from from more from a
perspective of just make getting show the cost summit, not
from a development perspective. So yeah, that these are things
that I feel that are great about the open source community.
And also the fact that I think I've mentioned this
(28:24):
during the speech at the Price of Winning ceremony, that uh,
the world that we live in enabled with AI enabled,
with hardware, enabled, with three D printing, enabled by low
cost PC production, it is enabling doers and engineers and
problem solvers to just get a lot more done and
(28:47):
collaborate with each other with our unique strengths, and be
able to do so much more than we could ever
do by ourselves as individuals.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Absolutely, that's im like mic drop right there. That's a
beautiful point to kind of wrap it up around, and
obviously really nicely relates back to the mission of Hackaday
and you know why we're so supportive of open source
hardware with supply frame and as Islam of course as well.
But I love the point you made about the collaboration
(29:19):
is just different. It's a different level of dedication and
kind of excitement and experimentation and all these things to
really move the needle. Because people are not doing this
for the money or because they have to. They're doing
it because they want to. They're doing in their spare time.
And I'm always that's something that always really amates me
about what we would see come out of the Hackaday
(29:41):
Prize is so many people are you know, oh see,
like a challenge their neighbor ran into that they want
to try to solve, and then it became like an obsession.
They couldn't put it down until they got to the
bottom of it, and then something so amazing, you know,
came out of that. Now you know, the community can
continue building on and others can benefit from. So I
think that really great to hear kind of where you're
(30:01):
thinking of taking this, and I definitely, you know, it'd
be awesome to work together and see the ways we
can continue to ignite the community around the project, even
though you know it already sounds like you have plenty
of people knocking on your door to contribute. So that's
that's really great to hear, and so I want to
be respectful of our time. We're gonna wrap it up
with just a few last questions. What's one thing outside
(30:23):
of technology that's inspiring you these days?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
So again I think I would wrap it go all
the way from back to where we started. It is storytelling,
marketing and sales that is inspiring me lately. And the
importance of being where the action is at is not
really in the in your lab, in the R and
D department, That is not where the action is right.
That is where you know, I used to be at
(30:48):
home most of the times, but it's on the field,
putting yourself.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
In the shoes of the customer.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I think that just makes products better, not only from
the perspective of building a product for the user, but
how do you tell a story around the product, telling
a story around technology that makes that user want to
use it. And I've grown to have more appreciation around
brands like Apple and and Teenage Engineering, where you know
they have crafted this persona and the story around the
(31:18):
brand around the technology. Ultimately hardcore technology companies that make
laymen want to use this technology. And so I've grown
to be more inspired and just acknowledging the amount of
work that goes into crafting stories around technology.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah, that's actually a big challenge that you know, it
does take skills to make it happen.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Right, Often we speak about, you know, the megahertz and
the specifications, right, that is not where the story is.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
That is engineer talk.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
But how do you go beyond that and craft story
of how it's going to benefit the end user? And
I think that that is my learning from the last
few years, and I'm now applying this to my own
company and I'm now seeing a lot more benefit. A
lot of times I would talk about usps from a
hardware point of view. My machine has this, my machine
(32:19):
has that. Now, I think I've grown with the maturity
of understanding business from perspective that USB doesn't have to be.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
On the product. I think.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I'm not sure which book I've I read it from,
but there's the concept ESP and emotional selling point. How
do you sort of craft the enter story around your
product and how do you make sure you remove all
barriers for adoption and that itself becomes a.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Sort of USB for the product.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Why somebody would adopt your technology over somebody else's.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
That's a great point to emphasize the emotional aspect and
sometimes that's even more challenging to figure out. It's interesting
to hear your evolution, you know, into finding the challenge
and the interest there so that you can kind of
pull this passion around it. You know. It started as like, okay,
we need to sell more of the product, right, but
and what's happening with kind of our sales metrics. But
(33:15):
then it was like, actually, there's a lot to understand
here and dive in deeper, and it ends up bringing
us closer to our users, which in turn, of course
influences and informs what we're going to do back in
the R and D space as well. So all part
of a bigger cycle. Right. Thank you so much, Vja
(33:35):
for your wisdom and insights and sharing your story. I'm
really excited to share this with our community. And also
I'm just thinking as we were talking, we'll just we
should just publish the other interview as a podcast episode
as well, so people can listen to them back to
back and they'll hear all the amazing worlds of Vjay.
So thank you again for the time.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Awesome, Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
That was VJ Verada, co founder of Fractal Works, talking
about how He and his team are looking to push
the envelope of what's possible in the world of three
D printing and advanced manufacturing. This has been The Bomb,
engineering a path forward. If you like The Bomb, don't
forget to subscribe, rate and share the show wherever you
(34:26):
get your podcasts. You can follow supply Frame and Hackaday
on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn YouTube, and design Lab at supply
Frame Design Lab on Instagram and Twitter. The Bomb is
a supply Frame podcast produced by Me, Magenta Strongheart and
Ryan Tillotson, written by Maggie Bowles and edited by Daniel Ferrara.
Theme music is by Anna Hogman. Show art by Thomas Schneider.
Special thanks to Giovanni Selinaz, Bruce Dimingez, Thomas Woodward, Jin Kumar,
(34:50):
Jordan Clark, the entire supply Frame team and you are
wonderful listeners. I'm your host, Magenta Strongheart. See you next week.
No
The relationship you have with your develop printing is different
when their employees, and different when they're collaborating on an
open source project. Right, you're not really doing it for
the money, so it is for your interest, it's for
the vision, it's for the purpose. The motivators for people
who are in open source hardware is completely different from
somebody who's doing it as a job.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Today. On the Bomb Engineering a Path Forward, we examine
one of the big questions that engineers face. Is it
better to leave your work open source and let other
makers explore endless possibilities, or should you follow the classic
startup path and protect your work, limiting innovation but reaching
a broader audience. Generally speaking, open source is used in
the context of software development. The VLC player, Firefox, the
(00:44):
Linux are all great examples of popular open source software.
But over the last decade, open source hardware has gained
serious traction in the digital manufacturing and precision machining world.
Three D printing is one of the industries that he's
really written this wave. My guest today, VJ. Virata co
founded Fractal Works twenty thirteen after his robotics research required
him to print hyper specific robotic parts quickly, but most importantly,
(01:06):
at low cost. With no one making the kind of
printer he needed, he decided to build one himself. Today,
VJ walks us through the need for three D printed
parts in advanced manufacturing and where traditional C and C
parts fail, why he decided to keep fractic works projects
open source, and the exciting possibilities of what advanced three
D printing might hold for the future of tactical hardware.
This is my conversation with VJ. Verata, and this is
(01:27):
the Bomb. We live in a time where design and
technology touch every aspect of our lives. But where did
it all come from? Who designed it? How is it
built and brought to market? What will look like in
a year, two years, one hundred years. From the phones
(01:47):
and smartwatches that help us in our day to day
to the cutting edge spaceships and three D printers that
are leading us into the future. Modern design is constantly
shaping the way we work, communicate, problem solve, and play,
and every new design, bigger, small, starts with an idea
and a bill of materials. I'm agenta strongheart and this
is the Bomb. Where we talked to leading innovators in
the tech world and celebrate the transformational power of design.
(02:16):
I'd love to learn more about the service you're providing
in three D printed manufacturing fractal work.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So started eleven years ago when I was still in college,
where I just fell in love with three D printing.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It just got obsessed with it.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I think twenty eleven twenty twelve, the deplap movement was
just picking up steam, and I got myself a mental kit,
built it and realized, you know, this is going to
take a lot more effort to you know, get running smoothly.
So I was just obsessed with the fact that I
could design upgrades printed on the printer itself, and it
just the printer became better, right and before my eyes,
(02:52):
and the college had a business incubator, and somebody approached
us saying that why don't you, you know, get into
entrepreneurship and tie your hand at this because you have
a product people seem to want. And I'm like, okay,
I mean, like, I really did not have any interest
about business at that point in time. I wanted to
become a robotics researchers as a megatronics engineer at that
(03:13):
point in time, So I'm like, okay, and this is
going to be an interesting experience.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I don't have to put any of my money.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
The college's sort of university is giving everything, and let's
tie this out. So that's how sort of the humble
beginnings of fractal started, you know, just something for the
fun of it, for the heck of it, and my
perspective of you know, worst case scenario just doesn't work.
It's going to look good on my resume and I
could get into a good university and I really wanted
(03:41):
to wanted to join MIT at Boston back at that time.
So I like, okay, and entrepreneurship will look good in
my own resumes.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Let's have a go at this.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
But you know, those initial years, especially in India, you know,
three D printing was sort of indistiguient show from magic
for a lot of people, and just from you know,
a couple of college undergrads who again hadn't even graduated yet.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
We were able to get a lot.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Of traction initially just from the fact that we were
in three D printing. And during twenty sixteen, fifteen sixteen times,
the entire sort of bubble around three D printing was massive,
and so that just carried us, even though you know,
we were still more of tech people rather than entrepreneur
the salespeople or I had zero understanding of finance and
(04:33):
marketing and sales at that point in time. So it's
just sort of the momentum that carried us forward. But
I still had like a genuine love about three printing,
and over time I realized that this more than just prototyping,
has so much more it can do for manufacturing. Where
you manufacturing, you end use products with three D printing,
And I'd say over time that became the mission of
(04:56):
Fractal Works, where we were working on three D printing
with the intension with the goal of using it for production,
and what changes do we need to make both in
the from the production standpoint, from the design standpoint, from
the printer standpoint, from the material stand for the intestack
required for using three D printing for manufacturing. So all
(05:17):
of that is what we engage ourselves on. So we
not only on capable three D printers that will laugh right,
we want machines that can behave XC and C machines
where you where a company invest in them and they
can bank on that that they will get service and
support for ten to fifteen years of this machine and
(05:38):
making sure that prints reliably for days and weeks on
and making sure that they can print with performance matives
beyond absnp A, looking at nylon carbon fiber, composite, nylon
polycarbonate ultempeak. Then going into applications where we are more
figuring out the sticky part in between the product and
(05:58):
the customer.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Where we are we on.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I'd say the one of the biggest problems about three
D printing industry globally is that not too many manufacturers
are actually sitting down with customers and figuring out solutions themselves,
where I think one of the biggest differences.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
We we go overboard.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
It comes down to figuring out new applications of three
D printing. When it comes down to working with customers.
If somebody comes up with an idea, can we use
three D printing for this particular use case? And we
we do. We aren't sure about whether three D printing
can be used for that particular use case. And that's
what really gets us excited about. Hey, if we figured
this out, could this open up another huge market for us?
(06:38):
The three D printing can be used for this particular industry,
for say, investment casting or sand casting or and again
all of all of that under the umbrella of manufacturing
where we want it's not it's not that we want
to print toys and gifts and you know this thing,
but what are what are the value that we can
add in the manufacturing sector and leverage the advantages of
(07:00):
the process itself where you have complete design freedom, where
you have a lot of choices in terms of materials
that you can work with, composites that you can work with,
and how do you add value on onto the shop
floor or how do you add value to a particular
industry with that. So it's a very in terms of
again uniqueness about our approach More than the machine, I
think it's in the in the way our business operates
(07:23):
from business model and go to market strategy point of view,
where you know, I acknowledge that tomorrow probably in terms
of the hardware, other companies might overtake us, where instead
of us developing that we can we can use that
and then make sure that we package in a way
in which we are actually solving customer problems. And there's
a lot of process understanding that we that we sort
(07:47):
of figure out.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
I think that's that is both both.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
The complexity that is possible with three D printing is
also in a way what is limiting.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
It's it's adoper option right.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And we also on the other end, have an understanding
that where the market is going, what kind of materials
would be required, what can performance materials would be required
for multiple kind of applications. We are we are getting
more requests safe for example from the ev industry, So
you need ULV zero fire it on in certif certified
materials so that you know they self extinguished, so you
(08:20):
fire it on it materials are required for certain applications,
making sure that you know the supply chain for that
materials is available. Our process parameters are set for that
the machine can process those materials. So I would say
it's not a pure play say standard cookie cut up
three D printer that we have, but we have architecture
where we can interchange the nozzle, we can change the
(08:42):
bed specifically for printing specific materials that add value to
the customer. And you know that unique go to market
strategy where we are problem solving along with the customer
to make sure that three D printing is actually used
in production.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, it sounds like you've built out this whole support
network and system that comes with the use of the
three D printer, which makes sense. Like like you said,
there's a lot of challenges and adoption, especially in traditional
manufacturing kind of settings, where there's a disconnect in the
capability of three D printing and the advantages and the possibilities,
(09:21):
but maybe the knowledge or experience you know, isn't quite
there yet to connect the dots. So I think that
makes a lot of sense that you're able to provide
that and walk them through and support them through that
process with any missing parts the customer may not have,
like the designer or like the material knowledge, et cetera.
Did you tell us one or two as specific as
you can get. I'm sure some things are you know,
(09:43):
protected whatever you're willing to share, but maybe some unexpected applications.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
One of the advantages I think talking to the hackertay
community is that everybody is our nerds and geeks, so
you will get really get into I can really get
into specific So I think one of the things that
that was from a couple of weeks back, we were
working for an automotive manufacturing company, like a second tire
automotive company that gets contracted work.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
By the top oms.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So they make these plastic parts automotive grill, dashboard, all
the plastic polymer parts inside a car, and they are
trying to automate as many work cells as possible. So say,
for example, two as simple as two plast two polymer
parts have to be joined together with fasteners and screws.
So there's a there's a robotic arm from Universal Robotics.
(10:35):
It has to pick in place uh, screw drivers of
multiple specifications uh and screw down.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Fasteners as specific places. Right.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
So in this case, the polymer part has to be
held in a particular place, at a particular angle, particular orientation.
So those fixtures they're called so it has the negative
shape of the the polymer part that has to be
held and sort of centers it and make sure it
is in I would say would have been a very
(11:08):
straightford application of three D printing when we say about aha,
this is sort of the low hanging fruit. But there
was another issue that he said, you know, this is
a problem that we are facing and you solve this,
where the gripper had sort of like a male and
female part that would constantly engage and disengage, which we
made with aluminium and over time over three four months
because of the wear and tear, there's a lot of
(11:31):
play in that in that part, and the screw driver
was not aligning properly right. If it would bang against
one screw it would it would miss align the on
the subsequent fastno that it had place. So what we
did was first we sort of took again there were
three four sort of the male attachments to them. We
figured out there's actually a variance in the tolerance itself,
(11:52):
so it's devailing from from you know, thirty five point
two to thirty five point five because of the variant
tear that has happened across something that accommodates for a
very tolerance, right, we can't really have something rigid that
is a machine that can do that. So that is
when you know, one of my engineers had an idea
of putting a compliant mechanism that actually sort of designed
(12:15):
in spring almost that pushes against the male part, that
sort of fits into the female part and is comparable
for a range of tolerances and not just one, not
only that overtime, even if it undergoes where that compliant
part will you know, compensate for the wear and tear.
(12:36):
So that was on the design part. Then we also
show material carbon fiber nylon. Again, nylon in itself is
very uh rugged as a material. Uh, the carbon fiber
composite of nylon is extremely what the word I'm looking
for durability? I would say durability, but that's still not
(12:57):
the word I'm looking for. Anyway, there's this particular term
that is used in polymers when you have like a
spider graph of flexibility strength all this one never mind, Well,
you can make it.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
A challenge in the comments if you think you know
this word, get back to us.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
I think it starts are it's.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Driving maker that I can't think of it either.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
So again in terms of what it means is that
it can take a lot of beating without really getting
scratched or this thing or deforming or whatever. And especially
for a short flow scenario. You know, there's a lot
of times where the coding for the robotic army not
right and it sort of bangs against something. So that
is also another advantage because of the compliant mechanism. So
(13:40):
then you have like a tolerance for error as well.
So we were paving for one problem of this thing
not engaging with the other repeatedly, but were able to
sort of solve a lot more problems that you know,
they didn't even identify as problems.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Then, you know that I remember that day when.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
We while to figure this out, because for us, we
wanted this challenge of you know, can we replace this
machine part with the carbon fiber composite three D printed
carbon fiber composite. And we took a few trials. The
last last day when we actually installed it into the printer,
almost all all the shop floor attendees sort of came
(14:17):
and gathered around and was seeing the compliant mechanism on that,
and they were sort of blown away how something like
this as possible.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And uh, that an awesome moment for you guys.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Oh, I mean it surprised us as well, right, And
these are the things that, you know, make me feel
that three D printing does really have undiscovered potential. Uh,
and we are at the forefront of that. And I'm
not sure if I can name the company, but it's
it's one of the largest manufacturers of automobile parts in
(14:49):
the world. And to surprise a huge manufacturer like that
with a manufactured part, right, that's something that is really,
I mean gratifying at the same time makes us feel
like we're.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
On that I check, We're going to take a quick break,
but when we come back, VJ gives us his perspective
on the current trajectory of manufacturing and how the industry
can better navigate the labor shortages in factories and machining
shops around the world. Welcome back to the Bomb Engineering
(15:25):
A Path Forward. I'm your host, Magenta Strongheart. When we
left off, VJ was talking about some of the discoveries
him and his team made as they stepped into the
world of three D printing and the problems that they
needed to solve to design and create highly specialized parts
at scale. I would be curious to learn what you
have kind of seen the trend over your career since
(15:49):
you were in undergrad in what students seem to be
focusing on, what universities are focusing on versus what the
industry really needs. I think there's a lot of people,
you know, discussing kind of labor shortages that are going
to be coming up with in manufacturing. With some of
I think what comes out a lot is around see
(16:10):
and seeing and operators, you know, retiring and things like that,
and a lot of the traditional kind of trade skills
and that sort of thing. But then I think also
there's a discussion around maybe you know, the surplus in
like computer engineers we have or computer science majors. And
then also everything happening with AI advancement and development, what's
(16:32):
that going to mean with all the people that are
focused on, you know, learning how to code and this
sort of thing. So, I know that's a lot that's
not really a clear question. What would you say to
young people that are, you know, wanting to approach an
engineering career and be make sure they're you know, useful
in the future and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
I was just having the same conversation with another friend
of mine who I met after about ten fifteen years.
So we used to build robots together back in college,
or even an electronics engine and one of the things
in India, especially the opportunities for hardware people are much
lesser and most you know, whether you did mechanical engineering
or electronics or software, everybody is going to end up
(17:11):
in software. So we were just talking about this thing
about the robots that we used to build, and he
told me that, yeah, I mean since college, he's not
touch touched anything hardware, and it's sort of scared of it.
And so we got into discussion about just the state
of things, right. I think what something that he said
was very profound that you know, it is cyclical, it's
(17:34):
a supply and demand issue. You have a lot more
software engineers. You know, AI is taking care of a
lot of things. Suddenly those those tradesmen jobs are going
to become a lot more lucrative. I think for a
while the VC industry looked at three D printing to
be the answer to be for that where you can
fit that gap, you know, where you have the perfect
(17:59):
overlayer of software and hardware, where you know you can
have computational design and native designs, and then you know
you have complete uh geometric freedom to make water parts
that you want and you don't have to machine it.
You don't have to create a g code by yourself.
But I think that that that is great on the
company pitch tecks and stuff, but I don't think that
(18:20):
is the actual, uh you know, uh story on the
on the field. So definitely three D printing helps place
as a manufacturing technology, but it's not really the answer
to solving a lot of the basics that is wrong
or what needs to be done to bolster manufacturing around.
I'm not sure about the about the US, but India itself. Again,
(18:43):
we're also acknowledging this issue. There's a lot more funding
that's going into what we call industrial training colleges I
t I colleges, which specifically is our our institutions for
training tradesmen, scency operators, lithop operators, and uh And they
are also including three D printing in their curriculums, so
(19:06):
that this also has been added. So it is definitely
sort of a supply and demand issue. I think it
is seclic. I remember when I first got into engineering,
and and you know, I got into discussion with some
people saying that, you know, why do you take megatronics
Mechanical engineering is where it's at where at that time
there was a boom in in automobile production or automobile
(19:29):
of the largest one of the largest industries at that
point in time.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
You know, it goes up, it goes up and down.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
So I think AI especially is going to take out
going to put I wouldn't say put a lot of
software engine out of the job, but big software teams
a lot more efficient and they will not require as
many number of people to build high quality software as
they needed to write. I mean, I started using gethub
(19:57):
copilot in our You know this, it's a complete game changer.
And if you told me there's something like this existed
a couple of years back, I would be like, it
would completely be absolute magic. So I definitely know feel
that these are the kind of trends that will start happening.
And hardware jobs, tradesmen job things that you are to
(20:18):
do with your hand which robots cannot do one less
sort of Boston Accent and Tesla come up with great
robots that then we're in trouble over there. But I
don't think we have a threat with physical robots for
a time.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
For for some time now.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I think we are we have always been since the
beginning of time good with our hands as human beings.
You know, we are creative people and we and we
are amazing at crafting things with our hands. I think
software will get commoditized and it'll come we'll get equal
standing with tradesmen and manufacturing and machining.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I think those are all really good points, and you
covered a lot of ground in that answer, so thank you.
You did address almost all the different aspects I brought
up that I just threw it you kind of in
a blob. But yeah, I think the supplying demand point
is really important and it's great to hear kind of
how India is addressing, like shifting some of the funding
(21:18):
for programs that are going to address this and going
to help solve that you know, potential gap or the
gap that it does exist and is growing. But then also, yeah,
I think that's a good point about kind of how
AI is really making a difference in software right now.
It's still going to take a little while for to
have I think the same impact on the hardware and
(21:39):
machining side and robotics side, But like you said again,
I think it's going to make things more efficient and
teams more lean potentially, but it's not going to be
like humans aren't going to be useful still, and engineering
expertise are still going to be very necessary to help
shape you know, those tools and how they're effective in the.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Processes we need them for.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Absolutely, So I'm really excited that this interview has covered
a lot outside of the Hackaday Prize and your incredible
electro mechanical refreshable Braille module, because I was worried you
would be too similar to the interview we did at
super Con, which I actually need to I just realized,
I don't know if we've published that yet, but if
we haven't, we have to put it out there, because
then I'll just direct people to go there if they
(22:22):
want to learn more about that project, since you gave
such a great history and background to it, and it's
been great to learn more about your company. And I
think that the manufacturing, you know, the additive manufacturing being
integrated into traditional manufacturing is really interesting as well, you know,
of course for our listeners. So I would love to
(22:42):
just check in briefly about the the prize project, but
I think that we'll just point people to that interview,
and obviously the project age and everything will include in
our notes for people to check out more if they
want to learn more about that. Where are you now
that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So one, it definitely feels like there's a lot of
weight on my shoulders to take it to the next level,
you know, exactly. But at the same time, you know,
a lot of people just outrait just got in touch
with me saying that, hey, is it ready?
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I want to build like this tablet.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
There's some people from the government that contacted me saying
that you know, uh, they're from the particular person's disabilities
the division, and they want, you know, the same time,
nobody wants to devil. They want occupy it. If this
is ready, we will buy it.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
They want to finish products. You're like, no, no, all
the instructions are online for you to build it yourself.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
I keep, I keep, you know, I've got to got again.
Similar requests. A lot of college students doing their finally
projects and their and their thesis projects, saying that can
we can we do this? Can you have these modules ready?
Can you sell them?
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Sell these?
Speaker 1 (23:53):
One interesting story, right, So, in addition manufacturing three D prints,
we have like a thre D printing farm that makes
parts as well. Right, So, the head of that division
comes to me saying that somebody wants these refreshful braille
display modules made and he wants a hundred of them.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
And I'm like, wait, bro.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Then I got in touch with the customer and customer
didn't even realize I was the guy who sort of
designed it, and so he basically placed in order for it.
Because obviously everybody in the company knows that I've worked
on this project. So he sort of flagged it to
me saying that, hey, this guy is printing your project.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Is it fine?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
And so I got in touch with him saying that, hey,
it is still very difficult for you to do. You
need to get this component you need to get you know,
these faight coores, you need to get these magnets, all
of that, and you know finding the coil is not easy.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
This is what you need to do. So I actually
went out and met this met this guy. He's in
a different city.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I happened to be there and sort of in a
way recruited him to help me build the project further
because he was so and he was up for the challenge.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Even when you told him all the little aspects that
are going to be difficult, he will still do it.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Obviously, again from from the Hacketay point of view, from
the documentation point of view, everything looks very easy to do,
or yeah, you put it all together and just works.
But yeah, I know I almost killed myself, you know
that one month putting together widening the coils. The ferret
coils are also pretty weak, so if you just if
you don't remove it out of the chuck properly, it's
going to break and crack. So it's quite frustrating to
(25:32):
get you know, the kind of conversations that I've had
with him, and he's like, Hi, I can get a
couple of my friends. We'll come to Bangalore. They sit,
and then we'll sit and wind coils. And then if
three of us, if we do it together, we can
make it much faster.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
So there's a lot of interesting conversations that I've had
with people around this, and for me, the next step,
I think I've demonstrated that it works. The biggest challenge
is manufacturing it, building building tools. If I can get
and build tools to sort of make the scalably producible, I.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Think that is the the the.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Problem to solve, not the official Braill display in itself.
I think the module that the thumb design tweak's tolerances
here there can be done. Figure what material to be
done is all sort of in the books and needs
to be done, But those are not as big as
the challenge as you know, figuring out the automation of
(26:31):
the manufacturer getting this thing done, because that's really what
is going to separate. Get the cost really low, the
Bilow model. Costs definitely hardly costs anything but the amount
of time. And I've been an entrepreneur, I hire people
to work. Right Again, the kind of just the relationship
(26:53):
you have with your developmenting is different when their employees,
and different when they're collaborating on an open source project. Right,
you go that extra a lot more. You know, you're
not really doing it for the money. It's for your interest,
it's for the vision, it's for the purpose. The motivators
for people who are in open source hardware is completely
(27:13):
different from somebody who's doing it as a job. Like
even the person who would reach start me saying that
you know, I want hundred of these units made. He
is a developer, works for a company, and just like me,
he wants to do something on the side worthwhile with
his time and his expertise whatever he has. So it's
(27:33):
different things that it's also the motivating factor that brings
people together in an open source community. That also makes
that magic which I don't think happens with the company,
that doesn't happen with a business. And that's also one
of the reasons why I want to keep this in
this as a community project rather than looking at it
(27:54):
as a as a business, I might even let you
know this product through the work of the community.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Works out.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I might set up another organization just to manufacture it
and distribute it, right, not from from more from a
perspective of just make getting show the cost summit, not
from a development perspective. So yeah, that these are things
that I feel that are great about the open source community.
And also the fact that I think I've mentioned this
(28:24):
during the speech at the Price of Winning ceremony, that uh,
the world that we live in enabled with AI enabled,
with hardware, enabled, with three D printing, enabled by low
cost PC production, it is enabling doers and engineers and
problem solvers to just get a lot more done and
(28:47):
collaborate with each other with our unique strengths, and be
able to do so much more than we could ever
do by ourselves as individuals.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Absolutely, that's im like mic drop right there. That's a
beautiful point to kind of wrap it up around, and
obviously really nicely relates back to the mission of Hackaday
and you know why we're so supportive of open source
hardware with supply frame and as Islam of course as well.
But I love the point you made about the collaboration
(29:19):
is just different. It's a different level of dedication and
kind of excitement and experimentation and all these things to
really move the needle. Because people are not doing this
for the money or because they have to. They're doing
it because they want to. They're doing in their spare time.
And I'm always that's something that always really amates me
about what we would see come out of the Hackaday
(29:41):
Prize is so many people are you know, oh see,
like a challenge their neighbor ran into that they want
to try to solve, and then it became like an obsession.
They couldn't put it down until they got to the
bottom of it, and then something so amazing, you know,
came out of that. Now you know, the community can
continue building on and others can benefit from. So I
think that really great to hear kind of where you're
(30:01):
thinking of taking this, and I definitely, you know, it'd
be awesome to work together and see the ways we
can continue to ignite the community around the project, even
though you know it already sounds like you have plenty
of people knocking on your door to contribute. So that's
that's really great to hear, and so I want to
be respectful of our time. We're gonna wrap it up
with just a few last questions. What's one thing outside
(30:23):
of technology that's inspiring you these days?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
So again I think I would wrap it go all
the way from back to where we started. It is storytelling,
marketing and sales that is inspiring me lately. And the
importance of being where the action is at is not
really in the in your lab, in the R and
D department, That is not where the action is right.
That is where you know, I used to be at
(30:48):
home most of the times, but it's on the field,
putting yourself.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
In the shoes of the customer.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I think that just makes products better, not only from
the perspective of building a product for the user, but
how do you tell a story around the product, telling
a story around technology that makes that user want to
use it. And I've grown to have more appreciation around
brands like Apple and and Teenage Engineering, where you know
they have crafted this persona and the story around the
(31:18):
brand around the technology. Ultimately hardcore technology companies that make
laymen want to use this technology. And so I've grown
to be more inspired and just acknowledging the amount of
work that goes into crafting stories around technology.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah, that's actually a big challenge that you know, it
does take skills to make it happen.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Right, Often we speak about, you know, the megahertz and
the specifications, right, that is not where the story is.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
That is engineer talk.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
But how do you go beyond that and craft story
of how it's going to benefit the end user? And
I think that that is my learning from the last
few years, and I'm now applying this to my own
company and I'm now seeing a lot more benefit. A
lot of times I would talk about usps from a
hardware point of view. My machine has this, my machine
(32:19):
has that. Now, I think I've grown with the maturity
of understanding business from perspective that USB doesn't have to be.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
On the product. I think.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I'm not sure which book I've I read it from,
but there's the concept ESP and emotional selling point. How
do you sort of craft the enter story around your
product and how do you make sure you remove all
barriers for adoption and that itself becomes a.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Sort of USB for the product.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Why somebody would adopt your technology over somebody else's.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
That's a great point to emphasize the emotional aspect and
sometimes that's even more challenging to figure out. It's interesting
to hear your evolution, you know, into finding the challenge
and the interest there so that you can kind of
pull this passion around it. You know. It started as like, okay,
we need to sell more of the product, right, but
and what's happening with kind of our sales metrics. But
(33:15):
then it was like, actually, there's a lot to understand
here and dive in deeper, and it ends up bringing
us closer to our users, which in turn, of course
influences and informs what we're going to do back in
the R and D space as well. So all part
of a bigger cycle. Right. Thank you so much, Vja
(33:35):
for your wisdom and insights and sharing your story. I'm
really excited to share this with our community. And also
I'm just thinking as we were talking, we'll just we
should just publish the other interview as a podcast episode
as well, so people can listen to them back to
back and they'll hear all the amazing worlds of Vjay.
So thank you again for the time.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Awesome, Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
That was VJ Verada, co founder of Fractal Works, talking
about how He and his team are looking to push
the envelope of what's possible in the world of three
D printing and advanced manufacturing. This has been The Bomb,
engineering a path forward. If you like The Bomb, don't
forget to subscribe, rate and share the show wherever you
(34:26):
get your podcasts. You can follow supply Frame and Hackaday
on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn YouTube, and design Lab at supply
Frame Design Lab on Instagram and Twitter. The Bomb is
a supply Frame podcast produced by Me, Magenta Strongheart and
Ryan Tillotson, written by Maggie Bowles and edited by Daniel Ferrara.
Theme music is by Anna Hogman. Show art by Thomas Schneider.
Special thanks to Giovanni Selinaz, Bruce Dimingez, Thomas Woodward, Jin Kumar,
(34:50):
Jordan Clark, the entire supply Frame team and you are
wonderful listeners. I'm your host, Magenta Strongheart. See you next week.
No
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